Vancouver Island Developments

[*Jarrod]

hey all! well, i love victoria, but there are some things about it that i would really like to see change, but for some reason, i don't think will happen. for one thing, i think that victoria should start building up. but there are some city councillers there that don't believe in my views. they want to keep victoria a "queint" (sp?) city and that the tourists who come to victoria don't want to see "eye sores". but me personally, i love towers so much. i think that victoria needs some taller (not really tall, YET) and sleek and elegant towers to showcase it's true beauty. they do have some tall buildings, but a lot of them are too short or they're out dated (hello, view towers aka crack towers) and with victoria's growing population, where are you going to put all the people? they don't want to ruin the farmlands and the parks, but they also don't want towers. what are they going to do? it just makes no sense.

what are your opinions?

[Rhino]

We are having the same problem in Kamloops right now. It is not the city that is the issue here , its the old people that are against development . Luckely we are in the faze of ignoring their concerns . A city has to grow, Everyone has to understand this .

[jada]

Honestly Victoria's population isnt growing that much. Its very slight.

[Westcoast604]

Yeah they should definatly build some towers. If sprawl gets out of hand it will really make a mess of southern Vancouver Island. I think councellers will come to their senses eventually and build up, maybe just a few taller towers downtown, but for the most part I'd expect to see more built up nodes around the region consisting of 15 storey buildings max.

Its kinda ironic how Nanaimo which is smaller, is building more high-rises than Vic. I was reading in the Sun yesterday on how it is becomming a new bedroom suburb to Vancouver with harbour lynx ferry service to downtown in 80 mins (hey thats the same as my commute to Surrey!). A lot of Vancouverites are buying in Nanaimo for cheaper condo prices, and to get away from the busyiness of the city. Good news for Nanaimo! They are getting some great waterfront towers out of it!

http://pacificawaterfront.com/

http://www.globalairphotos.com/images/bc/nanaimo/2003/nas2003_098.jpg http://www.globalairphotos.com/images/bc/nanaimo/2003/nas2003_036.jpg

[Koz]

Some councillors and anti-development types (aka NIMBYs) are ramming down our throats lies and deceptions. They want tourists and newcomers to believe Victoria really is quaint, but it's not. What's quaint about Victoria? What's charming about Victoria? It's as quaint as any city of 350,000 and has the same issues as a city of 350,000. With towers, of course, all of the people who are trying defiantly to pretend Victoria is a small town, won't be able to pull the wool over many people's eyes. What's a small, quaint, charming town doing with 30-storey towers?

Until Victoria rids itself of this small-town, cutesy and quaint perception printed in tourist paphlets and spat out in conversation, the attitudes are not likely to change. They will be passed on over the years even when Victoria reaches 400,000 (which if you include the full commutershed it already has), 500,000, 600,000...

But Jarrod, it's people like you who can set change in motion. Go out to council meetings, talk to your friends and relatives on the issue, and start spreading your views around. There are plenty of poeple who share your views but they believe they are a minority.

[Koz]

Its kinda ironic how Nanaimo which is smaller, is building more high-rises than Vic. I was reading in the Sun yesterday on how it is becomming a new bedroom suburb to Vancouver with harbour lynx ferry service to downtown in 80 mins (hey thats the same as my commute to Surrey!). A lot of Vancouverites are buying in Nanaimo for cheaper condo prices, and to get away from the busyiness of the city. Good news for Nanaimo! They are getting some great waterfront towers out of it!



Just to clarify, Victoria is building many more highrises than Nanaimo which has 3 proposed. Victoria has around 30 proposed or under construction and several recently completed, whereas Nanaimo hasn't seen any highrise construction since the 90s. If the Sun actually wrote that the opposite was true, then man, were they ever wrong... :)

http://skyscraperpage.com/cities/?cityID=37 - info on Victoria proper's, while there are also highrises proposed in the burbs not listed here.

And the Sun's article is more fluff than a representation of reality. People are not moving in hoards to the island and working in Vancouver. There's a handful of commuters, which will obviously grow, but it's nothing to get too excited about right now. Think about it, 80 minutes travel time across the strait, plus time to drive to the terminal on the Nanaimo side, wait until the ferry leaves, and do the same thing on the other side. In reality you're looking at 2 hours from start to finish. Not exactly a dream-come-true for more than a handful of people.

[Westcoast604]

Yeah I realize the Sun glamourizes things and that it's probably just a few handfull of people doing it, but it still is an option if you don't mind that ferry ride, unlike Victoria which is a bit too far for bedroom community status, but yes even Nanaimo is pushing it I agree.

The tower in that picture I thought was fairly recent, you say nothing has been built since the 90s? Must be late 90's then, but I don't remember seeing that there when I visted in 99. My point was it's height, it looks quite taller than anything i've seen in Victoria.

[renthefinn]

That building in that photo of Nanaimo is called the Beacon, and is the current tallest on the Island at 76m, and 26 stories. It finished construction in 1995, so you must of missed it on your last trip. The tallest in Victoria is Orchard House at 22 stories, and about 67m, not exactly sure on that height though, it was completed in 1969, and is the main reason for Victoria's current height restrictions.

[Koz]

Yeah I realize the Sun glamourizes things and that it's probably just a few handfull of people doing it, but it still is an option if you don't mind that ferry ride, unlike Victoria which is a bit too far for bedroom community status, but yes even Nanaimo is pushing it I agree.


Yeah, Victoria is just too far if you want to commute via ferry. If you want to fly it's not a big deal but the costs...yikes...

[*Jarrod]

well, i love all of your comments! and yes, i will have my say when issues of taller buildings come up in city hall. but there are all those people that want to keep it's image of an english community even though it has some serious issues in drugs and gangs...

[jada]

@jarrod.. where excatly on VI do you live?

[*Jarrod]

i live in an area called black creek between campbell river and courtenay/comox. but i'm moving to victoria in the summer

[ssiguy2]

I like a city skyline but only if it compliments the city. Victoria could use some good highrises but only as long as they don't tear down all the older building in the process. Victoria has far to many beautiful buildings and we don't want to become another Vancouver, steel/glass but no warmth.
A true mix of incomes, housing types, family types and businesses is what makes a city truly vibrant and diverse.

[ssiguy2]

By the way, greater Victoria is hardly growing at all......just 1200/year.
Its the changing demographics that are causing the huge amount of residential construction.
One house in the sixties would probably have 6 or 7 people but know to hose 6 or 7 would need probably 3 dwellings. No population gain but a lot more dwellings.

[*Jarrod]

i remember reading somewhere that back in the '60s that they were planning on tearing down the empress and putting up a big box tower. but luckly it was saved. could you imagin victoria without the empress?! it would look so naked. it would look pretty depressing

[Koz]

^and that's the hypocrisy of this town, try building something the size and scope of the Empress today and you'll be chased out of town! But every NIMBY here swears by it, even it's "height" and scope are a non-issue. Incredible.

By the way, greater Victoria is hardly growing at all......just 1200/year.
Its the changing demographics that are causing the huge amount of residential construction.
One house in the sixties would probably have 6 or 7 people but know to hose 6 or 7 would need probably 3 dwellings. No population gain but a lot more dwellings.

Last figures I saw the city was growing at 1%, roughly 3000 a year (at least since 2001, anyways. Last year there was an inmigration of 12,000 but a loss of 8000, if I remember correctly so the city grew by 4000 in 03/04. So we're not doing bad at all. Check out the CRD's site for more concrete figures up to 2004 at http://crd.bc.ca/regplan/ris/facts/population/documents/POPGROW_03_04.pdf

Anyways, nobody is tearing down buildings in Victoria, at least not the historic buildings. That is the common misconception that irks so many people to stand against development. No developer wants to scald his or her reputation by destroying old buildings, rather they build on empty lots or raze over 50-year old shacks that have no architectural merit. Problem is, if historic buildings are not being knocked down then the NIMBYs choose to focus on the proximity of new development to historic buildings, which is rather comical but has recently gained a lot of support. It's too bad, really, that Victorian's laud new development as being destructive yet praise European towns for being so progressive (have they not seen how well Europe's highrises and modern development complements historic structures?)...

[mec26]

I think to keep with the English feel of Victoria, they should build a "new city" section on the outskirts, as is done in many major European cities. These clusters of modern buildings wouldn't really blight the historical ones as long as they were an appropriate distance away (but of course not too distant for practical, commercial reasons).

[Koz]

But there is no "English" feel to Victoria. That's nothing but tourist pamphlet hype concocted for marketing purposes only. Ask any local and they'll scratch their head to pinpoint what exactly makes this town English (but every tourists somehow swear by it).

Victoria is as English as is New York, Chicago or Toronto.

[Tri-City Guy]

Well Jarrod you won't be alone with your views. I'm an environmental planner (oddly going into teaching now - LOL) and have worked in tourism as well. I'm moving to Victoria at the end of August. I'll sure as hell be making my views on the pro's for high density development known. I don't get put off easily so they're wasting their old age telling me sprawl is good. You also get plenty of "oh don't move to Victoria" from the locals, as there is no work and all that. Its just a funny city in that, those who live there treat it like a private club and don't want anyone else joining in. Unfortunately, I was put off by comments like that in the past. Many of my friends in Vancouver didn't help with the 'you'll die' of boredom remarks. Then again, I'm 35 so Victoria is likely perfect for my age. Neither newly wed nor nearly dead but perfect nonetheless. Hell I might even constitude 'chicken' in that town which is all the more reason to move there!! LOL

Victoria will come around with new blood. Its growing whether it likes it or not! The future is not places like Sooke, Langford, Colwood and the communities as they are today. They are so spread out they make Sidney look high density. LOL OK, going to the extreme a bit but you get the point. Even in Victoria areas like Hillside, Vic West, Esquimalt, Fernwood and James Bay are all perfect for further density. There's also room to increase densities around UVic or the hospitals but to a less degree maybe, say four or five story buildings.

Maintaining a sense of uniform style is what the city should be more concerned with. For example, if an office tower were to go up say to 20 stories - make it look historic or old world looking. Tourists won't mind a few high rises - its the city's style that matters most! And Victoria's got its own style but it can't prevent progress. And this is coming from a so called environmentalist. LOL Gee, what kind of tree huggers am I. A realist perhaps.

[Wallbanger]

But there is no "English" feel to Victoria. That's nothing but tourist pamphlet hype concocted for marketing purposes only. Ask any local and they'll scratch their head to pinpoint what exactly makes this town English (but every tourists somehow swear by it).

Victoria is as English as is New York, Chicago or Toronto.
Hmm? Victoria is more English than NYC Chicago or Toronto, I mean.. the name for one, the busses, that big british style hotel... anything else?

[Koz]

Hmm? Victoria is more English than NYC Chicago or Toronto, I mean.. the name for one, the busses, that big british style hotel... anything else?

^You just proved my point! :)

Let me explain:

The Empress Hotel is "British" by virtue of those who frequented it's rooms in its heyday, and that's about it. The same applies to all hotels at the turn of the Century. In fact, every major city in Canada has one of those hotels. They were constructed to market destinations for investors in the railroad business. Just so happens Victoria's was built on the inner harbour in a prime location.

As for tourist double-decker buses, they are also used in Vancouver, New York, and other cities. As for transit-double deckers, they were ordered for the purpose of moving mass amounts of people as articulated buses do not work well along narrow corridors. Kelowna also uses them, and Calgary is considering using them as well. Even Toronto's GO transit network wants to use them.

Quebec City
http://graphics.worldweb.com/Images-PegasusHotels/Quebec/ChateauFrontenac/hotel.jpg


Banff
http://graphics.worldweb.com/Images-PegasusHotels/Alberta/FairmontBanffSprings/hotel.jpg


Victoria
http://graphics.worldweb.com/Images-PegasusHotels/BritishColumbia/FairmontEmpress/outside.jpg


Saskatoon
http://www.canada.worldweb.com/PhotoImages/Articles/Canada/P10100261.jpg


Toronto
http://image.pegs.com/images/FA/RYH/ryh_b1a.jpg


Edmonton
http://www.globosapiens.net/data/reportpix/thumb/edmonton-report-1211-0.jpg


Vancouver
http://www.kurtknoll.com/vanbus.jpg


New York
http://www.city-discovery.com/new-york/pics/503.jpg


Toronto
http://www.affiliate.viator.com/graphicslib/3040/SITours/doubledecker.jpg


Halifax
http://www.affiliate.viator.com/graphicslib/3010/SITours/doubledecker.jpg

[aastra]

Funny story: Prince Charles and his mistress got married the other day, so one of the Victoria news stations does a "man on the street" segment, trying to catch all of the royal wedding buzz. Problem is, there was no buzz. Nobody knew, nobody cared.

Reporter's conclusion:
Royalists don't care much about Prince Charles and his mistress.

My conclusion:
Victoria's reputation for being a bit of old England is a mountain of old crap.

The only person in the segment who even knew about the wedding was some 90 year old tourist...from England!

[Guerrero]

Well I would like to make two observations:

1. Victoria is about as British as anywhere else on the Westcoast. Can't remember the last time I went for tea. Tourism victoria needs to start focusing on Victoria as it is a small cosmopolitan Westcoast City.

2. Also I think that people think that Victoria is not growing only because they look at stats for the City of Victoria, which is but a small portion of what is the actually the city of Greater Victoria including Esquimalt Saanich etc. I am not condoning the urban sprawl that is occuring but some of the surrounding areas are growing very rapidly. What needs to occur is some sort of regionalization and overall land planning that will focus growth and contain sprawl. That will in turn lead to more highrise development downtown.

[jada]

Smart Guerrero, I agree with everything you say here. :) I totally agree with your first point. But I fear that Victoria will not grow up out of its past until the current wave of geriatrics have passed on. And then it will be the younger generations' turn to show Victoria to the world as a cosmopolitan city.

[Westcoast604]

Don't a lot of people from England move to Victoria too? Its like one of the only other places in the world that feels like home to them i've heard.

[oceanmdx]

Actually a lot of Britons won't move to Victoria because it reminds them too much of the place they are trying to get away from.

[Wonderwall]

The Victoria city councillors – pejoratively termed "nimby"– are reacting to comments by Arthur Erickson regarding the protection of the Empress. The new Marriot and the other architecturally tasteless building being constructed next to it may peek above the hotel; we were better off with the bus parking lot. A city like Vancouver, with no heritage, has the liberty of bulldozing what it pleases and making it's downtown as bland as it likes, which, it turns out, is quite bland. Victoria has a hate–hate relationship with tall buildings because they've treated us badly in the past; View towers, the Rudyard Kipling, the monstrocity in Rockland that looks over everything south of Cedar Hill, etc.

If kids in Victoria want more tall buildings, old people are your greatest asset. I would speculate that the majority of apartments and strata buildings in Victoria house the elderly; an even higher percentage in Oak Bay. The redeveloped St. Joseph's hospital, the Sunrise, the Redevelopment of the Baptist Housing Society site on Foul Bay Road – the catalyst for all of this is old people. They add to local businesses without driving; the perfect citizen. Also, all these buildings are responsive to their location. They are an appropriate height for a city with less than a half a million people. Shoal Point is a testament to the kind of development that can result from a populus that knows what it wants – it's like an Empress for this century. http://www.urbanweb.net/images/shoashotbg.jpg

For those adament about some kind of Concrete monolith somewhere on the South Island, look to the western communities; they have no problems ignoring the concerns of their local citizens.
f.y.i. - praise and laud are synonyms.

[jada]

I dont know. My entire family immigrated from England to Victoria, and none of them have ever felt that their new city was anything like England. Victoria is more like a bastardized, disney version of england.

And for the time being I am sure that immigration from england to canada has pretty much slowed down, I wouldnt say that alot of brits move to Victoria any more. I see more asians moving there, but not to the extent that they move to Vancouver.

[renthefinn]

^^A lot of people seem to like shoal point, but I'm not really a fan, not to say worse things haven't been built, but it's such a wide fat building with no ground floor retail making it very pedestrian unfriendly. Your view of "appropriate height for a city with less than a half a million people" is also clearly misguided, many cities, of similar size, without height restrictions build taller buildings and are not overun, and can maintain there heritage at the same time. Parking lot's are never better than buildings, no matter how much you may dislike the architecture. Parking lot's don't bring activity to the street, or promote pedestrian activity, let alone impress tourists. Unfourtunatley you know little of Vancouver's heritage, and should study some of it before you state such innaccurate claims as "A city like Vancouver, with no heritage, has the liberty of bulldozing what it pleases and making it's downtown as bland as it likes", and although you may think it's downtown bland, there is more life there than in Victoria's streets, without a doubt. An Empress for this century would be a 30-storey highrise hotel, and comparing something as meek as shoal point (although the materials, and finishing were good), is a disservice to the principles that got the Empress built to begin with. View Towers is the main building in Victoria that discourages highrise development, and although it is a mere concrete slab it's mostly been a problem because of the type of residents it attracted, hardly a reason to discourage highrises. If Victoria wants to get out of the duldrums and attract more people, it'll encourage highrise office and residential/mixed use buildings to encourage more peolple to live and work downtown, while preserving the historical buildings that exist. In other words don't tear down the heritage buildings, I wouldn't be opposed to alteration though, like addition of floors.

EDIT: Sp.

[Koz]

Wonderwall, what is it with this "Arthur Erickson" mania? The man made a few comments with no knowledge about Victoria. He just spoke his mind as an architect (not a city planner nor an expert on victoria, but an architect). If a developer approaches him to build a 50-storey tower on the harbour he'll jump on the occasion.

Remember how Pam Madoff reacted to the three proposed towers in the Songhees (which were all approved)? She wasn't thrilled. But guess what, the tower that stands there now is Arthur's. Yep, it's true. If the man was as concerned about Victoria's harbour vista's he'd have turned away from his 11-storey project on the harbour but at the time Victoria had no problem with building height and therefore neither did he.

And guess what Arthur's up to in Vancouver? He's designing an 80-storey tower, hundreds of feet above even Vancouver's allowable building height and. Don't build anything in Victoria, says Arthur, but lets stick an 80-storey tower in Vancouver just for kicks.

It's like getting good behaviour advice from the devil, don't you think?

[Guerrero]

Well I have a couple of things to say. First I think I know far more people from the middle east or latin america here in Victoria then British people.

Second I actually like Shoal Point I think the finishing was excellent. The only problem is that they have not leased all of the ground retail so that the back area is still dead, with the exception of Moka House.

Third, listening to Arthur Erickson about urban planning is truly ridiculous. He has built two ugly universities (SFU & U of S) and builds buildings that don't always fit in to the surrounding area (CBC Vancouver) His one good development I can think of is Robson Square in Vancouver and there are parts of that space that could be remodeled to improve it (smoky brown skylights).

Last, the only way to improve Victoria's street vitality is by building on parking lots and bringing more people to the core. Even if they are (oh my god) bigger then the Empress. City Council should be concerned with design aspects not size.

[aastra]

...regarding the protection of the Empress.

Do you know something we don't, Wonderwall? Give us the scoop!

We were better off with the bus parking lot.

As much as I loved the bus parking lot, I really can't agree with this. We had 40 years to enjoy that parking lot. It had a good run. If you didn't fill your photo album in that time...well, maybe you aren't the parking lot aficionado you like to think you are.

A city like Vancouver, with no heritage...

This was a joke, right? In all seriousness, a walk around downtown Vancouver can offer a glimpse of what Victoria was like before the notion of "Victoria-sized" buildings was invented. That magnificent old building at Pender and Granville that houses Dunn's Tailors reminds me of the Permanent Loan building in Victoria (which was replaced decades ago by a dreary six story slab).

...the monstrosity in Rockland that looks over everything south of Cedar Hill...

I agree with you on this one, I'm also jealous of the views the people in Camosack Manor get to enjoy every day.

If kids in Victoria want more tall buildings...

It's not just kids, Wonderwall. A lot of the people on this forum (including me) would also like to see some more tall buildings.

For those adamant about some kind of Concrete monolith somewhere on the South Island...

Did somebody say they wanted a concrete monolith in Victoria? Whoever said that, shame on you. The people I know want attractive modern buildings, because Victoria is so lacking in this regard. Victoria's defining characteristic used to be grand architecture. Now its defining characteristic is bland architecture. I'd like to see Victoria return to its roots again.

Funny thing about heritage: did you know the buildings we build today will be heritage 100 years from now? It's true!

Also, has anybody here ever actually been to Britain? I'm beginning to wonder if my travel agent pulled a fast one on me, because the England I visited was nothing like Victoria whatsoever.

[crazyjoeda]

I dont know. My entire family immigrated from England to Victoria, and none of them have ever felt that their new city was anything like England. Victoria is more like a bastardized, disney version of england.

And for the time being I am sure that immigration from england to canada has pretty much slowed down, I wouldnt say that alot of brits move to Victoria any more. I see more asians moving there, but not to the extent that they move to Vancouver.

Yes immigration from England to Canada has slowed down, but did you read the special election section of the Vancouver Sun where every riding was profiled. It had a map that showed what the top 3 countries immigrants were from. For Victoria-Beacon hill I belive either Germany or England was the top country. What was really interesting was that Germany was often in or near the top spot in many other ridings in places like White Rock and the North Shore. Asian countries were first in places like Vancouver, Burnaby, Richmond and Surrey; I think India was the top country for Surrey.

[worldwide]

(QUOTE) listening to Arthur Erickson about urban planning is truly ridiculous. He has built two ugly universities (SFU & U of S)

i like SFU alot, i think it is a nice piece of architecture. have you ever walked around it? its awesome

[Guerrero]

SFU falls under that famous real estate slogan - Location, location, location. If you put the campus in the middle of east van it wouldn't be that great. I have walked up there and the view is amazing, but that is it. It is a great school though. I know lots of people that have gone there and have had great profs etc.

On a different note, has anyone heard anything about the Express bus plans for Western Communities and Sidney. I know that they were mentioned in that Transportation 2020 document that CRD put out, but is anything going to come of it. I am not a fan of "Rapid Bus" but anything would be an improvement over what we have now. I would like to know where the bus stops would be and how far apart they would be.

[Wonderwall]

Yes, Vancouver does have some heritage. That was mostly to raise the ire of Vancouverites. But it is an afterthought in Vancouver; whereas the best part of victoria is actually the old part.

The biggest reason Victoria doesn't need any tall buildings is because the ones we already have aren't full - tons of space downtown is empty.

Yes If Victoria built more tall buildings it could be like other great cities with tall buildings - Atlanta, Georgia; Omaha, Nebraska or Montgomery, Alabama. Wouldn't that be fantastic.

[renthefinn]

^You left out, London England, Paris France, New York USA, Istanbul Turkey, Montreal Canada, and countless other beautiful cities, your bias against tall buildings still doesn't make much sense. Yes there are many heritage buildings in Victoria with empty space, the reason for this is the prohibitive cost of seismic retrofitting, and other upgrades neccessary to bring the buildings up to code for occupancy. Until the costs can be justified I don't expect many of those buildings to fill up, meanwhile I don't think the city should be left to rot making it less desirable to live in, and thus making the likleyhood a developer will refubish heritage structures even less likley.

[Koz]

Heritage is an afterthought in Vancouver? Never been to Gastown I take it? That's Vancouver's Old Town and it's at par with what Victoria has to offer. If you're comparing Vancouver to other major centres in the east than you're not taking into account the young age of Vancouver compared to the rustbelt.

As for Victoria's heritage structures, the only reason they are so majestic is because of their testament to Victoria's once pro-business and pro-development attitude. The city wanted to accel architecturally and create extravagance. Today? This extravagance is nonexistant because a group of vocal Victorian's still prefer to downplay any serious efforts to bring us worthy modern architecture by slandering developers and calling new proposals "monstrocities." I would suggest to you and persons like you that your efforts are best spent in rebuilding historic structures rather than stopping progress elsewhere. If you can't do that, move into one by suppoting developers who do rebuild them. In other words, put your money where your mouth is.

I have yet to see significant heritage structures come under the wrecking ball to make way for some modern horror, yet NIMBYs instill fear in people by alluding to that in their arguments (no, no monstrocities over old buildings, they scream). I have yet to see that actually happen (you know, the destruction of a beautiful, functional and structurally capable building) but you wouldn't know it by the arguments used by anti-development Victorians. In their eyes the whole city is one massive historic structure that they think makes Victoria unique. In actuality our "Old Town" is a fragment of the size most North American cities refer to as their old quarters. On another note, if Europe can manage to build beautiful modern structures among centuries old pieces of architectural genius then why can't Victoria?

[Guerrero]

Speaking about old and new. In my hood, North Park. On Quadra and North park there is an old building on the corner and right next to it is a new ultra modern townhouse project, The Bohemia. Personally I think it looks pretty cool and a nice example of urban in-fill. I heard it is already half sold. Neither building detracts from the other, in fact they compliment each other.

[Koz]

^Bingo! It's been done in Europe for over a thousand years but Victorian's believe we ought to live a time-frozen bubble where nothing changes and nothing happens.

[aastra]

Wonderwall, I appreciate your point about not wanting Victoria to end up looking like a cookie-cutter North American city full of bland towers. But we really don't need to worry about this because it will never happen. The 1960's and early 1970's are long gone, and Victoria was lucky to get through them with only one major curse (View Towers, which could have been much worse).

Go down the list of recent developments/proposals in Victoria and try to single out even one of them as a harbinger of doom. Shoal Point, the Reef, Parc, Shutters, the Marriott, Astoria, Belvedere, City Place, 860 View, the Wave, Corazon...heck, throw in the Sussex Building and St. Andrew's Square and all of the stuff on the Selkirk waterfront, too...you'd have to be blind or a hardcore curmudgeon to think these buildings are anything but a major esthetic improvement over the wastes each of them replaced. And the anti-highrise crowd should also be pleased, because most of these high profile projects are in fact darned short, much shorter than they would have been in any other city Victoria's size.

Just imagine how nice downtown Victoria could be if there was a striking building on every corner, instead of a parking lot or an abandoned shack or whatever. Just imagine how alive the streets would be if there were more residential buildings downtown -- it'd be like tourist season all year long, except the tourists wouldn't be tourists at all, they'd be residents.

I wish Victorians would stop obsessively comparing their city to other cities (favourably or unfavourably) and start thinking about ways to improve Victoria, period.

[Guerrero]

^ Nicely said!

I think I will take the two nicest lots in a city on the water and make them into parking lots. Hmmmm. Can't build anything else there because it might detract from the two buildings that people come to see in this city. We wouldn't want people to walk to far from Governmnet Street either.

Still reading the last few posts gives me hope for the city :)

[Wonderwall]

That's exactly my point! All the buildings mentioned - shoal point, the reef, the selkirk waterfront - are short. They add to the city without dominating it. Victoria has tons of space to expand laterally, so we need not build anything 40 stories. If you want to fill the holes in the city, and there are many, we should be focusing on lowrises. Two 10 storey buildings fill more parking lot than one 20 storey building does.
http://www.devonprop.com/dsc00062.jpg
http://www.southjubilee.ca/photos/business%20centre%202.jpg

The chronic amount of unleased space is not because it is condemned or otherwise unleasable, but simply a lack of demand. It will fill as tourism solidifies again, and developers convert space to condos.

gastown is a hole.

[Koz]

A lack of demand? Commercial space in downtown is expensive. Anyone considering leasing is not about to spend top dollar for an aging storefront.

That is the reason why landlords are forced to renovate their offerings or convert them to alternate uses (which is often the case). Retail in downtown Victoria thrives in modern structures, if you hadn't noticed, where the value of the space reflects the rent one pays.

Back to your 10 storey building over 20-storey building example. Wouldn't it be better to have two 20-storey buildings on those lots? You could house more people that way and surprise surprise, create even more support for retail establishments located on the base floor and elsewhere (otherwise known as creating demand to keep those retail establishments thriving). As for Victoria having too much space available...you're right, we're expanding in the western communities (not the inner city) at an incredible pace, eating up all that luscious space ;) As for downtown, our barren parking lots are all whats left. All that concrete amounts to few hectares, really, not much by any means.

As to the buildings you showed in those photos, the reality is the costs associated with acquiring land in downtown Victoria and developing the property (with ever-increasing construction costs) does not allow for lowrise or even one or two-storey structures. Highrises or extremely blocky, massive structuresj (it's either height or girth I'm affraid) are the only buildings that make sense in the urban core. Anything else just won't fly based on economics.

Btw, the buildings aastra lists are not all "short," in fact all but four of them are 12-storeys and up with one being 20-storeys. Now tell me, what's the problem? Are they bringing more people to the core? Are they reviving their once-barren or underused development sites? Yeah, I'd say so :)

[Guerrero]

^Exactly.

Also no one is proposing building a whole bunch of 40 Storey towers in Victoria. 20 - 25 Stories are what we need and they don't all have to be right around the Empress either. A 20+ storey tower behind the old Bay building would go a long way to reviving that area of downtown. Also the reaon that people should think twice about condemning tall buildings is if you allow a taller structure it won't need to have so much girth. This allows more light on the street and preserves view cones to the surrounding hills. I give you the example of the Parc Residences which id had been built 5-10 Stories taller it would not have required taking up that entire lot that it sits on. I would bet that the taller building would have actually have felt less imposing. Also that building on the corner of foul bay road and Oak Bay Ave is a sad example. If they had built it with even a couple of stories of residential it would have provided life to that part of the street even after 5 o'clock. I think that one storey commercial buildings should be banned within the city limits it is a waste of valuble land.

[Wonderwall]

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y287/jtredger/VictoriaDensity.jpg

Talk about Deus Ex Machina.

And as for the new building at Oak Bay and Foul Bay - why would you add people to it? All the buildings adjacent to it are 1 or two storeys. Add life to the avenue after 5'oclock? Yea, good idea. Everyone wants to buy gardening tools, used books or go to the bank when the stores are all closed.

[aastra]

I like Oak Bay Avenue at night. It's a great place to go for a coffee, go have a beer, go for a walk. Beautiful at Christmas. More people would make it only more attractive, in my opinion. Also, the businesses that are there now won't always be there. They've changed over the years, they'll continue to change.

Thank goodness nobody said, "Create a city where Fort Victoria is? Yeah, good idea. Everybody wants to live on the edge of a stinking mud flat with uninhabitable forests on all sides." Times do change.

Can anybody explain to me what "sustainable development" means in that article? She seems to be suggesting that taller buildings are somehow not sustainable.

Her reference to "principles-based planning" is also confusing. The implication is that highrise developments are somehow not principles-based, whereas lowrise developments are.

One thing we all need to remember: the folks who built the Empress Hotel or the legislative buildings or Christchurch Cathedral weren't being guided by sage councillors on the best way to "preserve the scale of the city". Back then the developers reinvented the scale of the city with every new project.

But then again, I suppose those were the old days. It's 2005 now and we're much more enlightened. The aspirations and attitudes of a century ago might have produced magnificent architecture back then, but similar thinking today could only wreak disaster.

[jada]

"Downtown Victoria is already very dense..."

Huh? I would say that the DT isnt very dense at all. What is the population of downtown, perhaps 2000 people?

[Guerrero]

Two things:

First, I don't even know where to start with the comment about Oak Bay Avenue. The Village area in Oak Bay is great as Aastra pointed out verywell. I think it would be a benefit to all of Victoria if that evening life (don't want ot say night life and scare anyone) were extended all the way along to Oak Bay Junction. Why would it benefit Victoria as whole you ask. Well if it was built up enough and by this I don't mean twenty storey towers all along just Commercial ground floor with residential above it would create a new draw for locals and tourists to spend their money at. They say that the biggest problem with tourism in Victoria is that most only stay for the day or over night lets give them more options for places to go so that they extend their visit. To have an extended commercial zone along Oak Bay Avenue would also attract more people to Victoria looking for places to set up offices. Not just retirees. Anyways I think that everyone gets my point. Single storey commercial in Victoria should be illegal.

Second, In response to Pam's article well I think that if everyone thought the way does then we would still be using oil for lighting and pulling stuff around with horses. Everything new is bad everything old is good. Nice!

[jada]

If you have seen Pam Madoffs home you would think that she still does use oil lanterns for lighting.

[Guerrero]

Too funny! Only 5 months till the election!

[Wonderwall]

You really have to read the article before commenting on it. She points out there is more to density than height. So, even if you do think that, for some reason, people in condos contribute more to local businesses than house dwellers, they need not reside in something 20+ storeys.

I am aware that Oak Bay is the best part of the city. Oak Bay has 18k people (and has had for half a decade). It is bewildering to suggest that 20 people living above some stores will affect businesses here. But, I digress; my criticizm of the criticizm of the once-torched Foul Bay x Oak Bay building was that there is nothing wrong with the building as is. After all, the site was a former gas station, and sat empty for quite a while (as they must). A building is always better than a parking lot. Remember?

[Guerrero]

Personally, I think downtown is the best part of the city. Of course I am biased as that is where I live. I think that a more vibrant and longer OakBay village could be somewhere that tourists may want to go and spend time (MONEY) not just ride a double decker down the street. Picture a smaller version of Kerrisdale in Vancouver.

As for density I think that short broad buildings would block out more light from the street then a taller, narrower building would.

On a different note, has anyone seen the plans for the new building on fort street across from the Mosaic building? I would love to know what it is going to look like.

[Koz]

^I think it's a four-storey building with retail on the ground floor. Not too sure on the design specifics, however.

[Tri-City Guy]

I like the idea of an 'Old Town' (inner Harbour) and a 'New Town' (upper harbour) and smarten up the area around the Bay. Time to sleek it up a little and make use (both residential and commericial/office) of the dockside areas too. Someone had mentioned the location earlier and I do agree its time to up the limits a bit. This area is far enough away from the Inner Harbour that some old dear isn't going to have a stroke at the mere sight of a 28 story wall of glass. I think Victoria is going to be forced to change whether it likes it or not - its 10-20 years down the road.

I'd even like to see the density increased around the university (maybe slightly lower height limits though) , Langford and Colwood. The latter areas need some sort of central focus and contain the sprawl a little better.

[Wonderwall]

More density right near the university probably isn't in the cards; certainly not in henderson, caddy bay, or queenswood/10 m. point. That's what they get for not building it downtown.
They are building something - "tuscany village"? at Shelbourne/Mackenzie. That seems like a good area for some new development. All along Shelbourne would be nice to see gentrified. Maybe they could even replace the trees (given to the city as a gift) that were cut down to build that hideous mall.

[Guerrero]

I think that Cedar Hill X Road and Shellboure should be built up into a little town centre for the uni. Shellbourne is ripe for it especially between there and Hillside mall as it is mostly rundown duplexes.

As for the northend of downtown. I think it is just a matter of time with most buildable lots in the south part of town already either in the process of being built or proposed for building.

Hopefully the Bay will become the next big project we will hear about. If RG Properties (the owner) ever finishes the arena :)

[renthefinn]

^RG doesn't own the old Bay, they had an option to buy it, but didn't take it up. I think it's Townline Group that bought it, Koz should know, as far as I know they're planning on possibly building a highrise on the parkade site, and possibly converting the rest to loft type units with ground floor retail.

[Guerrero]

Oh I thought it was the other way round. Well I only live a block from there and I would love to have something other then that awful parkade there. Though what that is going to do to event parking for the arena one can only guess.

[Koz]

Yep, ren knows his stuff! As for the Bay parkade, it's hardly used for events (ironic because everyone cried doomsday regarding the parking issue). Townline originally planned to upgrade the parkade prior to redeveloping the site but has since shunned away from that idea as the need just isn't there.

Anyways, that parkade will indeed be home to a new highrise. The full scope is yet to be determined but the plans won't be released until late Jul/early Aug.

And Guerrero, you're right about that area of Saanich. Saanich council stated that if highrises and higher density were to be developed anywhere in that municipality, northern Shelbourne would be an area they'd favour (apartments already litter the streets, the next step is height).

[jada]

So I am guessing that the new highrise on the parkade site will have underground public parking for whatever ends up in the old Bay site?

[Koz]

One would think they'd include more capacity than what the tower and the revamped Bay building will require. Excavation is bloody expensive but if they can get several thousand people to park there over the span of a month then it'll be worthwhile.

Although from a security point of view, underground parkades are meant to be "resident only" for a reason so as to keep potential theives out. Unless they somehow block access to residential parking I don't know if too many people will be keen on sharing their parkade (and for good reason).

[Guerrero]

Whatever happens at the Bay it would be nice to see something similar to the Astoria go in there. Nice large podium with some commercial and a tall narrow tower on top.

I am surprised that not too much has been announced in the area around the arena since it opened. Anybody know what is up with that narrow lot next to the Jack Davis Building, kiddy corner from the arena? Great location for a hotel with a sports bar downstairs.

A la arena - Read an article in the Vic News saying that things are much farther behind then they should be. Apparently the dressing rooms haven't even been painted yet, just drywall.

[Tri-City Guy]

A la arena - Read an article in the Vic News saying that things are much farther behind then they should be. Apparently the dressing rooms haven't even been painted yet, just drywall.

I'm suprised Cher didn't go Apeshit! LOL

[Tri-City Guy]

Any news on when the big Hilton Victoria Casino Complex opens?

[Koz]

Nope, John Asfar is still trying to work the system. Nothing happens until a casino license is granted and thus far the gaming commission isn't giddy about the idea of an independant casino on Great Canadian's turf.

[Koz]

Here's more on the arena parking issue, or non-issue, rather.

The parking crisis that wasn't

Jack Knox
Times Colonist


Tuesday, June 07, 2005

If you go by the theory that artists mirror their audiences, illegal street parking won't be a big issue when Sarah McLachlan plays the new arena tonight.

This is soulful Sarah we're talking about, not Guns 'N' Roses. You won't find a big outlaw element in a McLachlan crowd. Not like some of the wrasslin' fans at the May 29 big WWE show. Their cars were shoehorned along the surrounding roads, right under the "resident parking only" signs. Quick, declare martial law, the anarchists are loose.

"Every street -- Queens, Pembroke, Princess -- was jammed with cars," said resident David Roy. He wasn't happy about either the illegal parking or the constant cruising by arena patrons rubbernecking for an open space.

In the end, the city ticketed 24 cars that afternoon. Sorry, but it's hard to sympathize with anyone who forks out $45 for a WWE ticket, then tries to save a couple of bucks by playing commissionaire roulette.

It's not like there were no alternatives. The parkade at the old Bay building had more than 200 empty spaces that day. At the same time the wrestlers were testing the foundations of the new arena, the City of Victoria's parking boss, Victor Vandenboomen, was at a soccer game a block away at Royal Athletic Park. The fee was only a buck or two, but the Royal Athletic lot was half empty.

It's been the same story since the arena opened. The pay lots that everyone thought would be flooded have yet to fill. You can fit close to 700 cars into the old Bay parkade, but just 180 were there when Rod Stewart opened Save-On-Foods Memorial Centre on March 26. Only 262 parked there for Cher, and 450 for Stars On Ice. The fee depends on who's playing the arena; it's $7 for a top act like McLachlan.

The city tried charging $4 at its Fisgard Street parkade on Rod Stewart night, the idea being that the doubled fee would push customers to its other, more distant lots, easing congestion. But the idea proved too successful; only a handful of vehicles showed up, and the higher event-night fee was subsequently dropped, at least for now.

It's not as if residents of the North Park neighbourhood have been regularly muscled out of the parking spots in front of their homes, either. The complaints linked to the WWE show were an aberration. People have been obeying the parking signs. (This is, after all, Victoria, where laws governing everything from rainy-season lawn-watering to sales of balloon animals are adhered to with nary a bleat of complaint from the flock.)

"Cher, Rod Stewart, even the curling was pretty good," said Roy. "I was surprised." David Brocklesby, chairman of the North Park Neighbourhood Association, said the much-anticipated parking problems have yet to emerge. With transit, car-pooling and free evening parking on downtown streets, people have choices. "It's a non-issue."

Well, not a total non-issue. Some cars were towed during the World Curling Championship, when arena patrons competed for parking with downtown workers and shoppers during the day. But most arena events are at night.

Enforcement of residents-only parking is complaint-driven. A parking-management plan mailed to North Park homes includes a hotline number. Phone it during arena events and the parking police will come calling, ticket pads in hand. So far, residents haven't felt much need to do so. Maybe things will change as different events draw different crowds to the arena. Vandenboomen is keen to see how hockey fans will handle the parking puzzle night after night.

But so far, with one WWE exception, the issue has been Victoria's version of Y2K, the crisis that never happened.

© Times Colonist (Victoria) 2005

[Guerrero]

I live on North Park Street which does allow parking after 6:00pm and if there is an event at the arena the block is totally tied up. Unfortuantely our building doesn't have a loading zone for dropping off groceries so you have to carry them from the parking garage but apart from that it has been excellent. More foot traffic in to the evening has definitely pushed down the amount of undesirables around the hood. There used to be a couple of cars broken into every night but I havn't seen one in a couple of weeks. So I say let the parking turmoil continue.

[jada]

You live on north park street? I know of two other forumers who live on north park street.

[Koz]

North Park, guerrero? You don't say...

[Guerrero]

Yup! In that building that just got remediated next to Flynn Printing. Not too bad an area now. And a ten minute walk towork each day. Got to love it.

[*Jarrod]

i'm not too sure what area that is in. is it near hillside ave? ...
oh, i'm moving to burton avenue beside sears at the end of the month. cool eh?

[jada]

So Guerrero it sounds to me like you live exactly in the same building as the two other Victoria forumers that live on your street. Thats incredibly weird.. I think that your building must have the densest concentration of forumers in the world.

:)

[VicHockeyFan]

OK, I've tracked you down...... actually, he lives one block up from us, but I have several friends in his building (and one ex-girlfriend living there temporarily, you know her Koz), and it was built by one of the same developers as my building......

Guerrero, are you in the townhouses or the condo tower?

[*Jarrod]

is there a main street around there because i have no idea where it is unless there is a main street involved. i'm guessing around hillside???

[Koz]

Jarrod, think Quadra Street and Johnson, northeastern downtown. North Park is the neighbourhood where the arena sits. Hillside is about 2km north from there.

VHF: ok gotcha.

[Guerrero]

In the townhouses. Just moved in a year ago. I think the building looks pretty cool now. Better then before. So you guys are down in that building with the perpetual fence around it eh?

North Park Neighbourhood Association I beleive defines itself as bordered by Blanshard, Bay, Cook and Pandora. I guess the town part would be cook street. There was word last year that it would get a face lift like Quadra village but I haven't heard anything in awhile.

[jada]

Cool, thanks for the clear-up VHF. Its good to know where my forumers are.

[*Jarrod]

ahhh, okay! i know where that is now.

[VicHockeyFan]

In the townhouses. Just moved in a year ago. I think the building looks pretty cool now. Better then before. So you guys are down in that building with the perpetual fence around it eh?

North Park Neighbourhood Association I beleive defines itself as bordered by Blanshard, Bay, Cook and Pandora. I guess the town part would be cook street. There was word last year that it would get a face lift like Quadra village but I haven't heard anything in awhile.

Ya, our remediation took forever, still ongoing. My meter is still running at $31k.

Whatever.

A good friend of mine used to own the (highest-ceiling) penthouse up at 930, P1, he got out just in time, made some kind of good $ on the transaction......and bought a nice house up on Grant.....another good friend owns on the 3rd floor.

[Guerrero]

We are only out 9 grand as we bought after the first remediation bill had been paid. Of course because we bought with full knowledge we don't get HPO loans. Still it was worth it for us. Now that it is finished there has been a big rush on selling by a lot of people. I think 7 units have either already sold or are on the market.

Personally I think the Victoria market is about to do a little leveling off. I am happy where I am and am not planning on going anywhere.

Oh a side note on parking, someone in my building is trying to get our block turned to residential. A little confused as all of our places come with a parking spot don't know who they would be for. I am sure the city will turn that down.

[Guerrero]

I walked past the Corazon and they are up the 7th floor already while the Wave on Yates Street isn't even above ground. They actually started excavation for the Wave before the Corazon so I wonder what is taking so long. Is the ground under the Wave more unstable? Anybody know?

[Koz]

Yeah, the foundation for The Wave requires more work due to the soil (Corazon is all rock, easy to work with, while the Wave is on unstable soil). Sometimes it takes four months to have a building rise above ground so this isn't out of the ordinary.

[Guerrero]

So Victoria is going to get Rapid Bus it looks like, rather LRT. Also I noted in the Victoria Transit Commision minutes that it actually won't implemented for 5 years plus. You would think they would want it completed in time for 2010 in Vancouver so they could take advantage of the increased tourism. With the already congested Douglas Street Corridor it will be interesting to see what they come up with to keep the busses out of traffic and moving quickly other than a lot fewer stops.

Here is the link to the lengthy report:

http://www.bctransit.com/regions/vic/news/commission/pdf/cmtg-ri-234.pdf

So what are everyones thoughts?

[Koz]

Nice, well sounds like they're moving a few steps forward.

Realistically speaking, LRT will not be feasible until 2020-2030. At current there isn't enough density to sustain the stations except at the downtown station(s) and the terminus (Langford). Unless Saanich starts pushing towards densification along the LRT corridor the economic case just won't be there.

Those BRT buses in the report sure look cool, though. And the transit right of way along the middle of Douglas is very European and would probably be one of the first in Canada (I think Richmond might have something like that in place). Seeing those buses shoot down the middle of Douglas would be something!

[renthefinn]

I think that LRT could work, but like you say some densification would help. The problem is the capital costs turn off governments, I'm not a big fan of BRT, but I guess it's better than nothing. The thing is with only one main main corridor to the Western Communities, and one to the Penninsula, Victoria has traffic volumes comparible to a much larger city on those routes, and it would be much easier to implement LRT in this city than in many other larger cities. I don't think implementing BRT will neccessarily bring LRT around any quicker, and may actually hinder it's introduction. The LRT was planned, and should be constructed before it gets too expensive, and too many people get too used to the galloping goose the way it is now.

[Koz]

The cost of constructing LRT...definitely going to be a problem in 2020. Good point Ren. It'll cost, what, $700m today for a ~20km track along the Goose with expensive stations and expensive trains. I can only imagine it'll be above a billion by 2020. Ouch.

I would prefer trolleys running on electricity to be introduced for the major corridors as opposed to BRT (in Europe trolleys operate in the middle of major thoroughways). Operation would be cheaper, capacity would be larger, and they would be much more popular over buses.

Frequent two-car trolley service would be great on these routes:
(purple) north on Douglas, east on Saanich, north on the Pat Bay (up to Royal Oak for now, further as required); (red) north Douglas, east on Hillside and north on Shelbourne up to Mackenzie, east to UVic and around ring road; (green) west on Pandora through Esquimalt rd, east on Admirals and west on Craigflower to Colwood Corners; (blue) east on Fort, north Richmond, connect to Hillside tracks. The great thing about trolleys is they can run in their own right of way or along regular paved lanes. The costs for laying tracks would be recovered through less buses serving those corridors and much lower energy costs, not to mention an increased transit popularity.

http://members.shaw.ca/michal/photos/map.jpg

These routes would serve highly populated, already well-utilized routes. I don't understand why transit can't entertain something like this but instead is opting for running BRT (eventually LRT) along low-density corridors.

What do you guys think?

[Guerrero]

I completely agree with you Koz.

They say ridership has increased dreatically in the last 5 years. Guess what the growth wasn't from the Western Comunities it was from Camosun and UVic. I know they say that people will switch once something good is there, but a lot of people out there love their cars. The one out the ferries would be great though I might actually take the bus out there.

I know that there has been talk at the Victoria 2020 conferences regarding street cars on shorter urban routes and I think it is a great idea. Replace either the #4 or #14 bus to UVic and Camosun with Streetcars. There is already a dedicated ridership that is only going to increase and also the corridors are both dense enough.

As for BRT vs LRT perhaps with the election coming up they can actualy say theyhave a concrete plan and it isn't going to bankrupt us. It certainly plays to both sides of the fence.

Here is a bit of an article that appeared on www.LightRailNow.org that Ren will like.

Kenosha, Wisconsin Streetcar System:
Workable Light Rail Meets Small-Town Mobility and Urban Development Needs
"Affordable, workable light rail transit (LRT) in an American city of less than one million population? How about less than 100,000 population?

That seems to be precisely the case with the new light rail streetcar system in Kenosha, Wisconsin, a small city of about 90,000 population. Located along the shore of Lake Michigan, Kenosha lies a short distance north of the Illinois-Wisconsin border, and about 70 miles (113 km) northwest of Chicago. Since 2000, Kenosha Transit has operated a 1.7-mile (2.7-km) streetcar loop designed to connect the local Metra regional passenger rail ("commuter rail") station to downtown attractions, a transit center, and the new 64-acre Harborpark residential development situated on the Lake Michigan shore."

Short but we could start something similar.

[renthefinn]

I like the trolley idea the best, but it may be the most difficult to convince politicians, and the general public of. AFAIK the latest LRT cost estimate is more around the level of $400 million, but if we wait much longer that price will just skyrocket, as I think it'll be harder to utilize the Galloping Goose, and Lochside corridors.

[Koz]

^^exactly! LRT will only provide transit to those who already use transit, getting people out of their cars has always been and will continue to be a challenge. We have to stop this attitude of enticing the masses and instead focus on current users.

By running urban trolleys through heavily populated, well-utilized transit corridors we'll acheive just that.

Ren, good point about the political aspect. It will be absolute hell trying to iron out a plan and involving so many municipalities who will all demand one thing or another. Amalgamation, at least of the four core municipalities, is an absolute must for a solid approach to regional transit.

[Guerrero]

Apart from those in Oak Bay I think the vast majority of people in Vic Esquimalt and Saanich would be for amalgamation. Of course the spokesmen for these regions are not exactly going to ever come out in favour of it because they will be basically voting themselves out of a job. I think what needs to be done is an old fashioned non-cityhall backed plebisite that can be given to the Provincial Government.

The economic sense in amalgamation is huge. Not only do you get rid of vast amounts of duplication but you also have a louder voice when you ask the province or the Feds for money. I don't know how many times I have heard that Victoria is a small city because it only has 75 000 people. Even the TC uses this number ALL the time. It is simply not true. Remove Victoria from the region and you lose all the surrounding communities too because they are one and the same.

Additional bonus no one will have to admit they live in Esquimalt :jk:

[Koz]

Apparently, Don Roughly, a past city manager for Victoria, is considering running for council. He is pro-business, pro-development and most importantly pro-amalgamation. Should he turn his intentions into reality we might have what's needed to get the ball rolling. I can see this outspoken fellow being a Pam Madoff for all things productive.

I would hope Saanich would join Victoria initially (we'd have a voice of 180,000 to start), but like you said, Oak Bay will have its nose in the air unless the province gets in and mandates action. Let's not even get started with Esquimalt, they're still frothing from the police merger and attempted fire department merger.

Ren made a good point a while back regarding amalgamation in the other forum. Creating core (Vic, Esq, OB, Saan), western (Langfod, Col, VR, Met, Sooke, Highlands) and peninsula (C Saan, N Saan, Sidney) regions would be ideal as a starting point. Further amalgamation could proceed as required.

Most importantly, we'd no longer have a use for the bloated CRD. Not only do we have thirteen local governments, the CRD has swooped over all of them and takes tens of millions of dollars in taxes to essentially rebroadcast the issues of the entire region.

[Guerrero]

Well I will look forward to seeing what Don Roughly puts forward in his campaign. If he is as pro-development and amalgamation as ya say then he will have my vote. I know that when he was city manager he did a lot to streamline the approval process for developers. I think the only negative he has right now is his involvement in the last arena project. Of course that doesn't sway my vote because I was for that arena proposal. It would be good to have someone to balance off against Pam Madoff. Hope he is running for council and not mayor he won't have a chance against Lowe.

As for Esquimalt again I think it was the council that was against the deal with Victoria not the general population. Also I doubt that council will be coming back anyways as they are extremely unpopular due to budget overruns and rising property taxes.

[Koz]

You absolutely right, if Roughley runs against Lowe it'll simply split the right-wing vote and create nothing more than an obstacle. He'll be much better on council in opposition to Madoff. It's amazing that councilors in Victoria only need 7500 to walk away laughing. That's 10% of the populations vote. If pro-development councilors could somehow manage to attract 8000-8500 votes they'd be a shoo-in.

From this morning's TC:

Transportation policy is off the tracks

Times Colonist

Friday, June 24, 2005

B.C. Transit and the CRD have long histories of finding pro-bus transportation consultants to shoot down light rail to the Western Communities. Now they've found another one ("Rapid buses coming, B.C. Transit says," June 20).

Transit commission chairman Don Amos says there isn't the population density to support LRT. But a 1990 study showed a Western Communities tram line would carry more people per kilometre than light rail lines in Portland, Sacramento and San Diego. And of course the population on the West Shore (including Sooke) has grown considerably since then.

You can find an "expert" to tell you anything. People in greater Victoria need accurate information and real choices.

Louis Guilbault,

Victoria.

[Guerrero]

I went to the Open house on the transit changes(Rapid Bus) today. Not too interesting. Just a few maps and drawings of the proposed changes to Douglas Street. Downtown will look pretty much exactly the same. Once you pass the Bay building the new busses will enter a bus-way exactly like the one in Richmond this will continue at least as far as Town and country mall.

I was wondering how a bus will be able to cross two lanes of traffic to enter the lanes. Apparently the traffic light before will allow the bus in the right hand lane to go first and then will allow traffic to leave a few seconds later. The busses will only stop at Hillside, Mayfair and Saanich Road along Douglas street allowing the busses to most likely move a lot faster than traffic.

I asked one of the guys there about the cost estimate of 14 Million for full implementation and this amount does not include new vehicles so to start out this system will run with current busses. Also a lot of the costs to improvements outside Victoria are not included because they are expecting the province to include it in some of their infrastructure changes. Hmmm...

[Koz]

Nice, thanks for the rundown. Did you catch a hint of when they were expecting to implement these lanes?

[Guerrero]

Beginning of actual work on some parts of Douglas St. will be started by the end of this year. Some bus routes will altered so they stop less frquently along the corridor starting next spring. I think the completion of the bus ways is expected to be in 2007.

[VicHockeyFan]

OK, hi folks....

I'm now fully barred from SSP.... can someone root around over there and find out what I did?

It was either the Chuck Cadman thread, or a very slight hint of a nipple on Paulina Porizkova....

Let me know!

[DrJoe]

I think it was the Miss World Canada thread because it sais the following...

*Image deleted by moderator due to unacceptable content*

[Dylan Leblanc]

It's a two week suspension.

[jada]

Well VHF it looks like you have two weeks then to boost your postcount here at SSC.

[VicHockeyFan]

It's a two week suspension.

OK. But although Paulina was topless, I don't think anything was "showing"...

Anywho, OK.

Alrighty, what cho all wanna talk about?

Guerrero, they are asking about you on SSP...

Chief Paul Battershill was on the radio today..... thay are going to conduct a probe of their own activities on Canada Day, searching bus patrons and the like.... what a waste of time..... just do it different next year.... and git rid of that darned helicopter... :bash:

[Guerrero]

I am attempting to get on there but so far nothin doing. I will try again in the next couple days.

So I have seen that the Nelson's music building is being worked on, but it does not sound like they have their permits from the city yet. Seems a bit strange to be already putting floorplans on their website.

Also has anyone seen any pages with renderings for that Fort Street building across from Mosaic. I havn't heard anything but they seem to be working with a plan so I don't get it. Rental properties perhaps?

[jada]

Nelson's Music, eh? That was the building I had eyed out to purchase after I win the lottery.

[VicHockeyFan]

Holden west over at SSP may knows something on the Fort St. building, its right in his 'hood.

Ya, the Nelson's thing is strange..... but indeed they are working on it.

[Guerrero]

I saw a brochure at cityhall yesterday on the redvelopment of the upper room on Pandora. Unfortunately no website that I could find. Anyways they had a rendering of the building that is going to replace the building that is there.

First of the building stretches completely between St. John's Ambulance and the Victoria Conservatory. The base is 2 stories and completly fills this space. The idea here is to have enough room that people can be inside rather than out on the sidewalk. I am all for that. There is then about three more stories of housing above the base. The housing is slightly more narrow and set back a bit from the front of the property. If I come across a rendering online I will try to post it.

Not the most exciting development and I am sure it will take a long time to get going but that block of Pandora sure needs something...

[Koz]

^Interesting...

[*Jarrod]

nifty



hey! i live in victoria now!!! the sears department store is my neighbour. cool eh?

[VicHockeyFan]

I saw a brochure at cityhall yesterday on the redvelopment of the upper room on Pandora. Unfortunately no website that I could find. Anyways they had a rendering of the building that is going to replace the building that is there.

First of the building stretches completely between St. John's Ambulance and the Victoria Conservatory. The base is 2 stories and completly fills this space. The idea here is to have enough room that people can be inside rather than out on the sidewalk. I am all for that. There is then about three more stories of housing above the base. The housing is slightly more narrow and set back a bit from the front of the property. If I come across a rendering online I will try to post it.

Not the most exciting development and I am sure it will take a long time to get going but that block of Pandora sure needs something...

The funding is in place, it dropped in out of the blue about 4 months ago.

PREMIER’S TASK FORCE ON HOMELESSNESS,

MENTAL HEALTH AND ADDICTIONS

The task force announced today the following developments in six communities:

Victoria

The redevelopment of the existing centre operated by the Upper Room Society/Victoria Open Door Inner City Mission, with an expansion of the transitional housing from 22 to 45 units. The housing would be targeted to single adults. Funding estimates include:

Federal capital funding of approximately $3.65 million.
Federal contribution of $370,000 through Supportive Communities Partnerships Initiative.
Provincial capital funding of approximately $3.65 million.
City contribution of property tax exemptions and adult outreach program funding equal to approximately $500,000 over 15 years.
The society has raised $500,000 in capital funding and received commitment for an additional $500,000.
Operating costs of approximately $1,000,000, with about $650,000 from the society and $350,000 from Vancouver Island Health.

$8M for 23 additional units. That's $350,000 each....... fuck me...

[Brett]

I was in town on the weekend looking for apartments and came away quite impressed with my future home. Can't wait to go back in six weeks or so to stay! (for a couple years at least)

[Guerrero]

So i guess that these organizations are not part of the plan when it comes to the Rock Bay development. I had heard that some of what is planned for there are projects. Personally I think if we (as taxpayers) are spending that much on cleaning that are up it should be sold for top dollar. That area is ripe for a Granville island type development. It even has a cement factory just like G.I.

As for the Upper Room project I must say once its done people other than its patrons might use that side of the street. How does it work out that social housing costs the same to build as market value condos are sold for. Just a thought.

Hey VHF, being a North Park denzien you ever hear of what was happening with the planned beautification of Cook street between Pandora and Caledonia. Though I kind of like it how it is.

I would love to see a nice big project on the Wellburn's parking lot though I am sure that is not going to happen any time soon. Also would love that suburban four storey apartment building to come down that is just opposite that lot.

[VicHockeyFan]

So i guess that these organizations are not part of the plan when it comes to the Rock Bay development. I had heard that some of what is planned for there are projects. Personally I think if we (as taxpayers) are spending that much on cleaning that are up it should be sold for top dollar. That area is ripe for a Granville island type development. It even has a cement factory just like G.I.

Agreed.

As for the Upper Room project I must say once its done people other than its patrons might use that side of the street. How does it work out that social housing costs the same to build as market value condos are sold for. Just a thought.

Lord knows....

Hey VHF, being a North Park denzien you ever hear of what was happening with the planned beautification of Cook street between Pandora and Caledonia. Though I kind of like it how it is.

Dunno anything about it, actually....

I would love to see a nice big project on the Wellburn's parking lot though I am sure that is not going to happen any time soon. Also would love that suburban four storey apartment building to come down that is just opposite that lot.

Ya, that lot is too big for them at Wellburns, if they tore down the elevator advertising building and put something up that shared the Wellburns lot..... but hey, do you dig that building on Mason, with the refridgeration co, in the basment, and apts up top, facing the little park? I think that's cool. The old brick apartment building on Balmoral at Cook, with no set-back from Cook Street is kind of cool too....

[Guerrero]

Agreed both those buildings are awesome. The hippy farm next to it is a little weird though. Who exactly uses that refridgerator store?

Also from this neck of the woods the building with the coffee shop and law firm next to the DO-IT Centre is up for remsediation soon.

[VicHockeyFan]

^ Ah yes, remediation time. That one was due. I wonder when Regents Park are due for remediation.... I saw a Britco trailer on site the other day, I wonder if their number is up.

OK, this would be a boring meeting.. I mean, its a freaking undewater cable, what's to discuss? Does there have to be a public hearing before anyone can do anything these days?

Power line to be discussed at open house


Times Colonist


Wednesday, July 13, 2005

A company proposing an undersea power line between Vancouver Island and the Olympic Peninsula in Washington state is holding an open house today at Esquimalt's Archie Browning Sports Centre.

Vancouver-based Sea Breeze Pacific will be showcasing details of its $200-million Juan de Fuca Cable Project from 4 p.m. to 7 p.m. Plans call for a 36-kilometre electrical transmission line to run between Port Angeles and View Royal.

The company said the technology that would be used has a low environmental impact, while the power supplied could guard against the possibility of emergency shortages on the Island. B.C. Hydro has said the Island could face a power shortfall by 2007.

Sea Breeze Pacific has been touting its proposal since the cancellation of Hydro's Duke Point power project last month.

Those unable to attend the open house can contact the company at 1-866-387-1240 or go to www.jdfcable.com

[VicHockeyFan]

OK, I'm in favour of this, hard to believe it costs so much. Give me a jack-hammer, and a summer, I'd do it for $50,000.

Bike lanes will be extended along Fort


Times Colonist


Wednesday, July 13, 2005

Cyclists travelling from downtown Victoria along Fort Street's bike lane discover it ends suddenly at Cook Street after just three blocks.

Continuing on Fort up the hill, cyclists pass a "bike route" sign, then, near the summit, "bike route ends."

The mixed messages should be gone by the end of August when a project to extend the bike lanes is scheduled to finish.

Council has backed a $370,000 plan to remove car lanes from streets to make way for bike lanes, for the first time in Victoria's history.

The project will extend the bike lane along Fort Street from Cook to the Oak Bay junction. A similar lane will run from the junction in the opposite direction to Cook Street via Yates Street.

One car lane will be removed in each direction to accommodate the changes, which include five improved pedestrian crosswalks and landscaping.

Traffic simulation models have shown that reducing the number of car lanes will not impede traffic flow, a report from city transportation engineer Steve Hutchison said. The project was largely supported at an open house held in February.

Half of the funding for the project is expected to come from the province and from the Insurance Corporation of B.C.'s road-improvement program.

[Guerrero]

I am sure Regents Park will be screened up soon.

As for that underwater cable meeting I am tempted to call the 1800 # to let them know I won't be able to make it.

Here is a thought, at the bottom of the Chelsea, some commercial lease space has been put in though no one has taken them up on it yet. Might have something to do with people being shot there. But perhaps the city could convince the owneres of View Towers to do the same with a portion of their garage like right at the corner of Quadra and View. I peaked in there and there seems to be lots of room, though most of the people could have been at work.

I hope the bike lanes on Fort are more exciting then those ones they put in for 1 BLOCK on Caledonia. Can't beleive the Minister of Transportation even showed up for the opening. 1 block Ha!

[VicHockeyFan]

Ya, Caledonia bikes lanes was lame.....

NEWS ITEM: The Bear Mt. hotel has been branded.. its a Westin.

[Koz]

A Westin...and what's the one Moe Sihota is developing a stones throw away (near Costco)? It's not another Westin, is it?

Jarrod, welcome to Victoria.

Brett...so how did you decide to travel to Victoria? Through Vancouver/ferry or direct to Victoria?

Anyways, it's time for Regent Park to come under the green tarp. People have been selling units in those towers like hotcakes since mid-2004...an indication something's up. Lets hope the suckers buying into those suites are/were aware of the remediation costs.

Re: View street. I have a feeling the City will embark on a View Street beautification project soon(ish). The owners of The Chelsea realize the pending changes and hope to cash in when the work is completed. I read about a plan that called for closing off View from arterial traffic and allowing cafes to setup tables on the street, a la European city squares. Nifty idea but I'm doubtful it would fly. People would flip about giving up the street to peds and peds would flip everytime a vehicle barreled through to enter one of the underground garages or Ralph's Radio. Although a ped-only environment would be nice right in the middle of the city...

[Guerrero]

In the late eighties early nineties there was a plan to turn view street into a shopping street but the city turned around after the Harris Green Charette that focused shopping on Yates and Fort with View being mostly for just residential.

I saw that rendering for those new buildings in the 1000 block view on SSP and I think that the city will only allow over 10 stories if there is ground floor retail. In the rendering I could only see it on one of the buildings so I am sure the city is going to send it to the desgin committee and they will say the commercial component has to be increased.

I am confused as to why a hotel is being built across from Costco. I can't see where the customer base is going to come from unless it is a lot cheaper than the one at Bear Mountain

[Koz]

My understanding is the hotel will be cheaper than the Westin @ BM. It's targeted for professionals who are attending weekend/weeklong seminars/sessions at Royal Roads and your average Joe visiting family in the westcomms. Apparently, and I say apparently as I wonder about the reality of this, there is demand for hotel space in the west. Whether that's based on sheer growth of the region or an expressed demand by travellers (for x-number of reasons such as w/ Royal Roads) remains to be seen.

The Harris Green area is limited to 10-storeys, yes, but so far two structures have been approved at 13-storeys. The Wave, u/c, and the Stafford, a 13-storey rental tower that could not secure funding and was replaced by Stan Sipos' 8-storey 860 View.

So what I'm trying to say is the land in the 1000-block of View is zoned for 10-storeys, but others have gotten away with 13. Couple that with remediation costs for the 1000-block of View and you've got a recipe for increased height/density. Personally I'd prefer to see a 15-17-storey tower and a lowrise 7-10-storey cousin rather than two 13-storey towers. In any case, 13-storeys is quite probable but anything over is guesswork. Of course the developer could argue the 17-storey Regent Park and 19-storey View Towers are literally next door thus making a taller proposal somewhat in line with what's already in the area. But knowing Victorian's, anything new over 12-storeys is a harbinger of all things evil yadda yadda...

As for the Harris Green plans, time to revamp them. They are innadequate based on the cost of land and demand for living space. 10-storey structures with 9-floors of living space stepped away from the building line doesn't give you much space and drives up the cost of units. As for aesthetics, imagine having a slew of 8-10-storey buildings litering a large chunk of downtown (things would look uncomfortably flat from a distance).

[VicHockeyFan]

Sheraton by Sihota I believe.....

NEWS ITEM: some woman fell overboard in the JDF Strait (Straight?), she floated 9 miles, 7.5 hours, she's OK....

[Koz]

Sheraton, that's it. Thanks.

[VicHockeyFan]

Well VHF it looks like you have two weeks then to boost your postcount here at SSC.

34!

[VicHockeyFan]

Well VHF it looks like you have two weeks then to boost your postcount here at SSC.

34!

[*Jarrod]

A Westin...and what's the one Moe Sihota is developing a stones throw away (near Costco)? It's not another Westin, is it?

Jarrod, welcome to Victoria.





hey, thanks!!! i'm enjoying it.

well, i have two job interviews...now don't laugh at them since it will only be my second job ever (the first one was at zellers in hillside mall for a month last summer)...

one is at mcdonald's on hillside avenue on tuesday...
second one is at thrifty foods in the deli department. i hope to get that one.

[VicHockeyFan]

^ I'm prayin' for ya to get the Thrifty's one..... :fiddle:





:banned: ~ From SSP ~ :banned:

[VicHockeyFan]

I can go for this..... I think it should apply to any vehicle with an engine under 1200cc too....


Hybrid drivers could get parking break

By Mark Vardy

Victoria News
Jul 13 2005

Ecologically friendly cars should park at downtown meters for free, said Victoria Coun. Chris Coleman.
We need to bring on more environmental initiatives and ecological initiatives. Here's one that makes sense," he said.
What we're really trying to focus on is protecting air quality."
Owners of hybrid cars should be able to get a pass that allows them one and a half hours of free parking at city meters, he said. Smart cars, and cars fueled by natural gas, biodiesel and other environmentally friendly fuels, should also be considered for free parking.
New Haven, Conn. became the fourth U.S. city to pass such a bylaw on June 6. Residents who own hybrid cars registered in New Haven can get a decal from city hall that allows them to park for free at city parking meters.
Los Angles has a similar bylaw because of its concern with smog.
At last week's committee-of-the-whole, Coleman said Victoria could be the first Canadian municipality to enact a similar bylaw.
Two city committees that look at downtown and transportation issues will discuss the idea. City staff will take their recommendations, do some research, then report back to council. Coleman hopes that report will be before council in September, but it will likely be next year, he said.
This is the front end of a discussion that will be occupying the next generation," he said.




:banned: ~ From SSP ~ :banned:

[VicHockeyFan]

This guy is kinda coming down in flames, eh?

Ex-clients cite victory as court orders Ian Thow's assets frozen

Andrew A. Duffy, with files from Richard Watts
Times Colonist

Thursday, July 14, 2005

Two days after former Berkshire investment adviser Ian Thow broke his silence, the courts slapped him with an injunction freezing his worldwide assets.

Calling it a win, Katherine Ducey, the lawyer for the Goodwin family of Richmond -- former Thow clients who have filed suit seeking $1.05 million -- said the courts have granted an injunction preventing Thow from liquidating his assets.

"It says he's not supposed to transfer or dispose of any of his assets before trial ... to make sure there's something left," she said.

When asked to estimate the worth of Thow's assets, Ducey would only say, "It's difficult to know what, if anything, he has."

Ducey says Thow now has 14 days to provide them with a list of his assets and the amount of money he requires to live. She said they have asked for a list of all assets owned by Thow and his companies, but not those in his wife's name.

"But theoretically anything in her name that actually belongs to him should be listed," she added.

The freeze comes just two days after Thow filed an affidavit in Vancouver in response to the Goodwin lawsuit which alleges the former Berkshire mutual fund salesman advised members of that family to buy into an investment scheme involving the National Commercial Bank of Jamaica.

According to writs filed in B.C. Supreme Court and the Court of Queen's Bench of Alberta, the Goodwins' suit -- and three others -- revolve around a scheme that had clients writing cheques to Thow's numbered company with a view to purchasing shares in the NCB of Jamaica to be held in trust for those clients.

Those court documents allege Thow was telling his clients their investments were soaring; however, when the clients demanded their money they received either a small fraction of their investment or nothing at all.

In his affidavit, Thow denies advising the Goodwins to enter such a scheme. He also pointed out he was a mutual fund adviser -- "As such, I did not have the authority to put client's funds directly into stocks."

Later in the affidavit Thow adds: "I may have suggested that an investment in NCB would be a good idea, but I did not ask them to make such an investment through me and I did not tell them to borrow funds against the equity in their homes to buy shares in NCB."

And while Thow admits he did make comments to Brad Goodwin about their investments doing well, he did not "recall ever telling him that they had doubled, tripled or quadrupled in value. My comments were with reference to the mutual funds investments that they were making through Berkshire (which again, did not include any NCB shares)."

In his affidavit, Thow says he has "given a mortgage to Harper Grey LLP (more specifically to HGE Management Co. Ltd., a corporation associated with Harper Grey LLP) to secure future legal fees."

Property documents and land titles information reveal Thow was granted a $250,000 mortgage on his Saanichton home last week. The mortgage was granted on July 6 at an annual interest rate of eight per cent with a balance due date listed as "ON DEMAND."

HGE Management of Vancouver granted the mortgage despite the existence of other encumbrances on the property at 8338 West Saanich Rd., assessed at $4.1 million in 2004.

Ahead of HGE are The Bank of Nova Scotia, which holds another mortgage. Also, three builder's liens are listed against the property while two other builder's liens are now working their way through the application process.

Calls to Thow's Vancouver-based counsel Rod Anderson requesting an interview were not returned.




:banned: ~ From SSP ~ :banned:

[Koz]

^ apparently Thow's bro has swindled investors as well. Runs in the family I guess.

[Guerrero]

Why are sketchey deals always somewhere you would expect them to be. Like "I have great piece of property to develop in Haiti, with great views of a volcano." You never hear about scams like "I can get you a great deal on Microsoft stock." Anyways just a thought but maybe people should so some research before giving someone a large chunk of money.

[VicHockeyFan]

It seems the guys that are really rolling in cash, and flashing it all around are often the ones that come by it in an ill-gotten way. Warren Buffet doesn't flash it around. I'm not sure if Jimmy Buffet does...

[Koz]

Yeah, and look at the investors who are now suing Thow. You couldn't pick them out as millionaires even if you tried.

Whenever I see these 20-somethings driving around in their Envoys or Yukons with $15,000 rims and $5,000 of stereo equipment I can't help but think about all that debt they've encrued. Ouch. But then again they always have a hot blonde lass sitting next to them...

I live by the mantra that the rich pay less and the poor pay more:

Poor guy goes in to buy a Benz, he'll slap on an extra $6000 through interest. A rich guy will come with cash and barter a deal that will save him $6000. Two identical cars, $12,000 apart :)

[VicHockeyFan]

^ Thow ain't the most attractive guy, either..... but his current g/f is hot, you and I know her cousin's ex, I know her cousin, BTW....

[Koz]

Hmm...you don't say...

[VicHockeyFan]

^ Whoops, double post.

Anywho..... I'm gonna go for a little walk today, check out the Wave, I'll snap a photo of Corazon too, its lookin' good.

[VicHockeyFan]

Good, its about time someone took over this shitty little route and made something of it* (*although I'd rather see it gone altogether).... the stupidest thing right now is that the run closes down for an 1-1/2 or so for lunch in the middle of the day.. union rules I guess.... From Monday Mag:

American company eyes ferry route


A public meeting organized this week by community members wanting to save the Mill Bay to Brentwood Bay ferry route heard that not only is B.C. Ferry Services Inc. preparing to take bids from private contractors to run the route, but there is at least one company interested.
Make no mistake," David Gray, a B.C. Ferry and Marine Workers' Union representative, told the meeting. There's a company that's interested in running this route, and it's an American company."
Gray has been working on the Save Our Ferries campaign for over a year. He was invited to last week's meeting as a resource. A few weeks earlier, on June 15, he'd attended a closed meeting for private ferry operators in Vancouver, hosted by ferry commissioner Martin Crilly. He was allowed to attend only after agreeing not to talk about what happened there, he says, unless a company explicitly said it didn't mind information being shared.
One company that didn't mind going public was Seattle-based Clipper Navigation Inc., he says, and they identified the Mill Bay-Brentwood Bay route as one they'd like to run.
The company's representative at the June meeting was their executive vice-president and general manager Darrell Bryan. He confirms that the company and two partners would like to run the route, as well as one serving Powell River. I'm not concerned about any comments I make being disclosed to anybody. There was no big conspiracy thing or anything."
The coastal ferry act requires BC Ferries to put routes out for competitive bids. If there was a consensus at this week's community meeting, it was best expressed by organizer Pam Alcorn who says, It's become clear through our voyage of discovery that the problem lay with the legislation itself."
When the Liberals passed the act in 2003 they had a huge majority, pointed out a member of the audience. He adds, I think we may find that people like Murray Coell and Ida Chong and a lot of other Liberal MLAs may agree to pull it back."
-A.M.

Make no mistake," David Gray, a B.C. Ferry and Marine Workers' Union representative, told the meeting. There's a company that's interested in running this route, and it's an American company." :bash:

Ooooohhh, the big scary American company line... I don't think anyone around here is afraid of Clipper Navigation, the company that is singularly responsible for bringing in millions of US tourist dollars to our city every year....

[VicHockeyFan]

^ Further, If Clipper runs the thing, I can see some great possibilities... can busses fit on that thing? They could do a Butchart Gardens/Butterfly World/Church & State Winery & Vineyards >>>- Malahat Summit tour.... Drop of the peeps at Butchart, and pick up the next group to take them over to the Malahat..

[Koz]

Next step, privatize the subsidized routes serving Salt Spring and other small islands.

[Guerrero]

If they are smart they will get rid of the ancient ferry that they have there now, get something can load and unload fast with a large capacity and actually moves quickly across the Arm. That way people might actually use the service rather than driving over the Malahat. Personally I was all for the bridge that was to go across the straight, the malahat slaughter would have been solved forever.

[*Jarrod]

there was supposed to be a bridge? that would be soo cool. i was thinking about why they didn't do it. well, the malahat isn't the worst highway that i've been on, but people don't drive it properly going way to fast on it.

[VicHockeyFan]

^ Yup.... the highway is fine, the drivers are nuts....

[Guerrero]

The company that built the confederation bridge to PEI asked if we wanted a toll bridge across Finlayson Arm. i guess this was about 7 or 8 years ago now and there would have been an express way between Hwy 17 and the bridge. The company would have asumed all the costs but they would have have exclusive rights to tolls for like 50 years. Anyways it was shot down by Cental Saanich and that was that. Also i think there were enviromental concerns as well. Too bad i would have used it, it would have shaved like 15 minutes off a drive up island.

[Koz]

A bridge across Finlayson would funnel traffic onto the Pat Bay which apparently gets busy with local and ferry traffic during peak periods. Funneling 200-300 cars (more with time) from the Malahat, per hour, would require construction of overpasses from C Saanich to Saanich Road. I doubt the province could be bothered with such investments until 2020 at the earliest (pop of at least 400,000 in Vic and 50,000 in the Duncan/Mill Bay areas).

[VicHockeyFan]

Open Door looking for a home
Drop-in centre for homeless needs temporary quarters while a new building is constructed

Judith Lavoie
Times Colonist


July 17, 2005

The organization that helps Victoria's street people is in danger of becoming homeless.

The Open Door, which is amalgamating with the Upper Room to build a new centre on Pandora Avenue, has to be out of its premises by Sept. 30. So far, the drop-in centre and street ministry has nowhere to go.

"It is our main challenge right now. We have nothing in the offing," said Rev. Al Tysick, Open Door pastor.

"So many things have to come together. We have to get zoning and a place the city would feel comfortable with and something that's not too expensive."

One building in the Store Street area that was considered as a temporary home wanted $10,000 a month rent, which put it way out of reach, Tysick said.

The Open Door needs at least 50 square metres of space. The maximum rent the organization can pay is $3,000 to $5,000 a month, he said.

The move is necessary to allow demolition of the rickety building on Pandora Avenue so construction can start.

Building the new centre likely will take two years. Tysick cannot envisage what will happen if people have nowhere to go in the meantime.

This week, the Open Door is packed with about 300 people in the mornings and almost as many in the afternoon.

"It always gets busier near Welfare Wednesday," he said.

The new centre, which will have a large living room, interior open-air courtyard, commercial kitchen, dining room for 140, chapel, computer room, health-care facility and 45 housing units, will be called "ourplace."

Tysick will become director of operations. Rev. David Stewart, who is now Upper Room director, will be community liaison and administration director.

The rising cost of construction is another problem facing the Open Door and Upper Room. The cost of the new building has increased to about $12 million from the initial estimate of $10 million earlier this year.

The federal and provincial governments have contributed a total of $7.3 million in capital costs, but rising prices mean more must be raised by the community.

Nancy Sheeley, organist at the Christian Science Church on Pandora Avenue plans to present a special building fundraiser concert at the church July 21 at 7:30 p.m., with performances by tenor Leon Leontaridis and soloists Erin Cunes, Eve-Lyn de la Haye and Carolyn Howe.

Sheeley said she was inspired to organize the concert -- featuring the sounds of a rare 1927 Casavant pipe organ -- to help the homeless.

"When we have a comfortable life, it's important to stop and say 'what can we do?'

"Being a musician, I thought that was something I could do. All the musicians have agreed to do this for a greatly reduced amount."

The first part of the recital will be classical music -- from Bach to Mozart, followed by folk music and works by Andrew Lloyd Webber.

"I want to inspire people to believe we can bring hope to everyone," Sheeley said.

Tickets -- $20, and $15 for students and seniors -- will be available at the door.

[VicHockeyFan]

I noticed that the new Bohemia, on Quadra just south of North Park actually has some storefront retail.. maybe about 250 sq. ft, that's it. Wonder what tenant they'll find for that.

Guerrero?

[Koz]

I...predict...a...Starbucks...

http://news.theolympian.com/eqarchive/302/6732-2443.jpg

[VicHockeyFan]

^ I said 250sq ft. I dunno that you could fit any food equipment in that small a space....

http://www.easternshoretowns.com/tasley/images/flower.jpg

[Koz]

^there you go!

Btw, that video you sent me yesterday scared the shit out of my little cousin :)

[VicHockeyFan]

^ It scared me even after the third time watching it.. it really is freaky....

[Guerrero]

I am hoping for a small coffe shop but I am sure it will end up being some lame ass real estate office or legal firm. Though it is plumbed for a toilet which would allow a restaurant of sorts and there is patio space there. Hoping for good coffee within stumbling distance :)

[VicHockeyFan]

I am hoping for a small coffe shop but I am sure it will end up being some lame ass real estate office or legal firm. Though it is plumbed for a toilet which would allow a restaurant of sorts and there is patio space there. Hoping for good coffee within stumbling distance :)

No coffee on at the funeral chapel? :bowtie:

[VicHockeyFan]

Corazon from The Bay parkade:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v217/VicHockeyFan/Mvc-019f.jpg

The non-issue of parking at Save-On Foods Centre:

http://www.salmonkings.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=38850#38850

[VicHockeyFan]

The Bohemia space.. looking at it, I guess it could handle a very small cafe.... but not much made on site other than coffee.....


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v217/VicHockeyFan/Mvc-0r03f.jpg

....chick with a nice ass (left), had to wait till they were far enough away in case her boyfriend turned around, I could outrun him back to my door, so its a long telephoto....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v217/VicHockeyFan/Mvc-0r05f.jpg

Inside Bohemia space, toilet drain top right:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v217/VicHockeyFan/Mvc-0r04f.jpg

On an unrelated note, I had to look up the store hours of London Drugs.. you get to a screen, and have to select the store you want.. they descrive the Yates Stores as:

Store: Harris Green Village - Victoria, BC

Give me a break... who other than us geeks know its called Harris Green...? Its like when Home Depot opened, they kept saying it was on McCallum, like anyone knew where that was....

[VicHockeyFan]

What's wrong with density? That means the buildings don't have to be spread out all over the site. I love density!

Revisions advised on resort proposal

Times Colonist
Monday, July 18, 2005

Sooke council has had its first look at a proposed marina and resort that would be located about a kilometre from the town centre.

Kappa Developments hopes to build as many as 34 quarter-share residential units, a marina and a commercial area on a 1.14-hectare property near West Coast Road and Maple Avenue.

Mayor Janet Evans said the plan has interesting points but drew concerns from council members.

"It was very preliminary, just for them to show us what they had in mind," she said. "They got a pretty strong message from council that they need to go and rethink a few things."

Evans said council had a variety of concerns.

"A lot of it was form and character. We didn't like the flat roofs, we didn't like the density. And we're concerned that right now the property has a public boat launch for anybody who comes to Sooke to launch their boat. That would be taken away, so we would have to look at another site as soon as we can."

Evans said she doesn't expect the proposal to be back before council for at least a few weeks.

Municipal staff said the overall design and layout of the project need some alterations to fit into Sooke's Official Community Plan. The condominium-style units would be up to 1,350 square feet, while the marina would include docking space for unit owners with boats.

At present, the privately owned land envisaged for the resort is used for camping and parking trailers in addition to providing a boat launch. A whale-watching operation is also based on the site.

[Guerrero]

That resort sounds good to me. Sooke and Sidney (to a lesser extent) have no idea that they are sitting on goldmines. There is no reason, if they were developed properly that they couldn't turn inot highend resort and retirement communities like carmel in California. They are both relatively close to an international airport and an alreay acclaimed tourist draw (Victoria) also by creating some density in both these places with some art stores and cultural events we could increase the stay of current tourists and draw more. What inmy mind needs to be done is create some protected land around both of these communiteis to prevent them from sprawling anymore and define the space between Victoria and these towns and then increase the densities to allow projects exactly like this one.

On a different note I was in Vic West today and from there you really get a good picture of how much development is going on in this city. i just hope it is sustainable.

[Koz]

I like that resort town idea, Guerrero. It's a shame, however, that residents of both areas would much rather burn in hell than submit their communities to "urban-style" densification (i.e. 6+ storey developments) ... ;)

[Guerrero]

It is sad that people would rather see 30 single family homes and a strip mall then one Condo building with commercial on the ground floor. What should be created is rather then a density bonus someone should create an undensity bonus penalize developers that just increse the suburbs with no thought as to how it affects the surrounding are. My ideal is high density cities with large expanses of protected wilderness and parks. Somehow if you live in 3600 sqft house in Metchosin while driving a SUV to work, you are getting back nature.

[VicHockeyFan]

Is there any way we can see Kate Wheeler naked?

http://www.ctv.ca/generic/staticPages/News/images/kate.jpg

Just a random thought...I wish I knew her when she was maybe 10 years younger, she's hot....

Hey, Klaudia showed up in Kamloops:

http://www.cfjctv.com/staff.php

http://www.theclayman.com/tana/sample_klaudia.jpg

Anyway........

Took a close look at Corazon today.. I kinda like it.... did you guys know The Wave has a sales office on Blanshard, next to the insurance office just north of the Carnegie Building?

[Guerrero]

Yeah that sales office has a nice model of building in there. I wonder how their sales are going. There are so many condos being built. My building alone has 6 for sale and they don't seem to be moving. A couple have already dropped their prices.

The Corazon is nice, though I would have liked to see it bumped up to at least 15 stories as is it is only just taller then the surrounding buildings. There is still hope for some height in the area though with that big lot across the street.

Here is a thought with Home Depot being built in Gordon head and Super Store being built at Mayfair lanes no one from downtown is going to have to go to Langford anymore. Stu Young can't like that. Perhaps that is why he is not running again, the Era of Langford at an end? Yeah right... Oh well!

[VicHockeyFan]

Is Frank Leonard running again? He ran unopposed last time, didn't he?

I just sent Alan Lowe some warm fuzzies in advance of the arena article that will likely consume a good portion of Monday Mag tomorrow....

[aastra]

So the party's happening over here now?

Regent Park with a bag on it?? That will look absolutely awful, if it's true.

Restricting vehicle traffic on View Street would be idiotic and it's totally unnecessary.

There's a London Drugs in "Harris Green Village", you say? Sounds pretty quaint. Then you get there and discover it's a monster downtown store, bigger than the one on Broadway, with an equally flakey crowd hanging around out front. Smack in the shadow of a block long 19-story tenement.

"Harris Green Village".

[VicHockeyFan]

^ No unicorns though. The party is temporarily over here, until my re-enlistment comes through.

Why does London Drugs let the bums on their property?.. that always surprises me.. as far as I know, its all private propery there, however many feet back from the sidewalk...

[Koz]

Leonard is running again, as far as anyone's concerned. He's mayor for life if he wants to keep the job. I was at his party when he won in '02 and you wouldn't believe how much support the man has from his community and regional politicians.

Stew's leaving and will most likely be replaced by one of the councillors with similar views. Stew is a busy business man, let's not forget that (he owns the Alpine chain of companies), and the mayoral seat takes up a lot of his time. He's done what he's set out to do and wants to leave while ahead. Langford's limelight will potentially dim as housing demand slows (who knows, it might run strong through 2010) and he doesn't want to be a part of that.

However, Langford is currently looking at the potential of developing south Langford (north of Metchosin, south of Colwood). The potential there is monstrous and a natrual progression from Colwood's Royal Bay development. And on another note, 350 units of housing were approved for Bear Mountain (http://www.bearmountain.ca). They've got a new website up that shows a map of the development. It's huge!

[Koz]

The Thetis Quay project in View Royal passed third reading today. Fourth reading will be scheduled for next month but today's vote essentially approved the 300-unit project on the border of Esquimalt and View Royal along Admirals Rd. The tallest buildings will be 8-storeys.

[Guerrero]

I can't seem to find a website for Thetis Cove with the exception of the Nimby site that was created to oppose it. Anyone seen a map of the site?

The project sounds great to me. Though digging up adjacent lots to have more water seems a bit strange but again I haven't seen a proper map.

So I heard Frank White's Dive Shop has moved anyone hear any rumours of that corner by the arena being redeveloped that would a great place for a signature building. Next to the arena at the north entrance to downtown.

[VicHockeyFan]

^ You know, the whole next to the arena thing, I'm not sure how great it really is. Remember how on opening (Rod Stewart) night, some entrepreneur set up a food trailer right adjacent, in the parking lot on Caledonia? They haven't done it since. A bar or restaurant may be OK, but they shouldn't simply rely on arena traffic, that's for sure. Of course, the arena is one reason cited for the Whitespot renos, and my buddy that owns Soprano's has high hopes for big business come hockey season....

Speaking of beside the arena, the little apartment building behind Mohawk on Pembroke has yet to have a commercial tenant (ever) in the ground floor, and next to the new coffee place (ex-McDonalds) in the old Monday Mag building has never had a ground-floor tenant next to the copier outlet.

And that six-story dreadful building on Blanshard next to Frank Whites is always quite vacant.. I see the ground floor cash-advance place has closed up there, after about 18 months of operations...

[VicHockeyFan]

BTW, curiosity got the better of me, I called JCR to ask what the storefront retail will be in the Bohemia on Quadra at N. Park, the receptionist "thinks" its leased, but not sure, she suggested it may be a coffee-shop, but not positive, wouldn't tell me how I could find out with more certainty, other than "waiting".... damn it!

[Koz]

I had an inkling it'd be a coffee shop. Nothing else could make use of a small space like that. Perhaps a private-eye office. PI's hardly need any space at all. Gene Miller could lease it out to enact his literary themes in real life. :)

I wonder what the lot directly beside the Davis (pink office) building will be. It's sat vacant for years now.

And guerrero, you still haven't received approval at SSP? Send them a message, this has taken longer than usual. Usually they'll approve people within one-two days unless of course they think you're VHF trying to come back under a pseudonym until the ban's lifted. ;)

[Guerrero]

^ That could well be the problem. Unfortunately my posts aren't half as interesting and risque as VHF's. :wink2:

Wouldn't it be great if both of those lots by the arena were devloped with perhaps one 15 and one 20 storey building It would make for a dramatic entrance to the city with the arena right there.

Well I am going to think that it is going to be a coffee shop. They have one customer right here. Though I do like the new Serious Coffee at the Monday Building, however laziness wins and if there is one 100m from my door then most likely that is where I will go.

I have pretty much given up SSP for the time being I will try again but I am going on vacation in a week for almost a month so I will wait till I get back.

[VicHockeyFan]

Two big news items on CFAX this evening...

#1, some 59-year-old guy has pleaded guilty to cutting some hair off of three women, 3 on transit busses, one in the McDonalds line-up.

#2, some guy filled up with $10 gas somewhere, only paid the clerk $4, and said the cops wouldn't bother chasing him for $6. Not so, say Saanich police, who are gathering video-tape evidence on the scene in order to track the guy. Fuck me, a cop that costs $45/hour in wages, benefits and equipment is chasing after $6. Good grief.

Oh, and City Hall has a $110k lien on it now! On the other hand, Monday Mag was fairly tame today on the arena issue.

Unpaid bills common for Victoria arena developer

By Brennan Clarke

Victoria News
Jul 20 2005

Victoria Mayor Alan Lowe expressed surprise last week when it was revealed that RG Properties had slapped a lien on the city to protect itself from creditors who say they haven't been paid for work they've done on Save On Foods Memorial Centre.
But a look at the company's recent track record leaves little doubt that liens and lawsuits are a common feature of doing business with RG Properties.
Sub-contractors who worked on Oceanside Place in Parksville, an RG Properties project that opened in late 2003, were forced to register liens against the company claiming a total of $500,000 in unpaid bills.
The Regional District of Nanaimo, RG's local government partner in the project, responded by withholding $785,000 in payments.
RG claimed it would be unable to pay the contractors until the holdback funds were released. All the liens were cleared up by February, 2004.
Wayne Rains, owner of Advance Precast, a Kelowna-based concrete fabricating firm, spent close to six years in court trying to recoup $200,000 his company claimed it was owed by RG Properties.
Advance Precast billed RG Properties for $1.5 million but received only $1.3 million in payments. The resulting court case revolved around two different types of cement beams - those that RG Properties ordered in the first place, which turned out to be structurally unsuitable for the building, and the higher grade beams that were eventually used to construct Kelowna's Prospera Place.
In 2004, a panel of judges ruled that RG Properties still owed Advance Precast $179,286.
As of Friday, 12 companies had filed liens against RG Properties totalling $2.7 million for unpaid bills related to Save On Foods Memorial Centre.
Several prominent construction firms have told the Victoria News in recent months that they refuse to work with RG Properties due to the company's spotty record of honoring contracts in a timely fashion.
Calls to RG Properties were not returned before the Victoria News press deadline Monday.

[VicHockeyFan]

Did you guys know there was daily scheduled flights between Ucluelet/Tofino and Victoria & Vancouver? Neither did I, 'til I stumbled upon the flight number on the arrivals list at YYJ today... cool...

http://www.craigair.com/schedule.html

[Koz]

Jeepers, now all our airport needs is a direct daily to Nanaimo and we'll have ourselves a destination roster everyone can admire :)

[Guerrero]

I needed the other six dollars to buy my own set of hair scissors :doh:

In arena related news the Korean BBQ has closed to leaving me to think that the owner of the building is not renewing leases. There is a lot of land between the corner and the Szechaun sp? Restaurant that would make a pretty cool place for a couple of condo buildings. Though perhaps they would complain about noise from the arena as I can hear it at my place. Of course I don't mind noise if I did I wouldn't live where I do.

[VicHockeyFan]

^ There is lots of land there, but two of the four parking lots are used on Sundays for the Church (Glad Tidings) including one that has permanent parking also for residents of 826 North Park.

But, the one that goes right thru between N. Park and Caledonia is fair game, as is the one right east adjacent, although they just paved it 6 months ago, so that doesn't seem too positive for development.

Maybe they could rip down the Korean restaurant and use that land too, then make retail around the Blanshard/Caledonia frontages, with condos above. It'd be sweet if the building had its underground parking entrance onto North Park only.

[VicHockeyFan]

Jeepers, now all our airport needs is a direct daily to Nanaimo and we'll have ourselves a destination roster everyone can admire :)

There is also (at least in summer) a non-stop AC from Victoria to Toronto daily..... leaves at 6:45, back at 10pm (earlier on Sundays), that's sure convenient.

[aastra]

Those lots at Blanshard/Caledonia (and also the lots on Discovery Street) would be perfect for highrises for the reasons already stated and many more. The "gateway to downtown" effect would be terrific. They're up on a bit of a rise, so views from a 17 story building would be excellent (as would views OF a 17 story building, especially from the north/northwest). The Blanshard strip is rather characterless and undefined, so (we can hope) there wouldn't be a lot of NIMBYism. If you ask me, it's the spot best suited for "condos for the rest of us", because wealthy out-of-towners wouldn't consider it to be particularly desirable. It's probably the only part of downtown where ordinary youngish working Victorians could find a niche and leave their proverbial mark. Highrises around Blanshard could nicely transition into midrise and lowrise projects all the way down to Store Street. I've got visions of a hip neighbourhood on the north side of downtown and those lots around the arena are the key.

[VicHockeyFan]

^ I wonder why Asfar doesn't consider it for Discovery Street. Maybe he has grander plans for his collection of buildings there.

Of course, as I have said before, he has never been a builder, always a renovator.

[Guerrero]

The first thing asfar should be doing is tearing down that motel at the corner of Douglas and Chatham and putting up something a little more substantial and classy. Its no wonder the City laughed at his Casino proposal he has done nothing to help the image of the city so far.

By redeveloping that hotel site he could generate a lot of goodwill around here with me for one. I, however will never accept his Casino proposal at that location. The only place in this city that I think a Casino is acceptable is at Ogden point and only if it is high class and expensive like the one in Monte Carlo. The main client should be tourists not locals. Opps sorry I am ranting.:soapbox:

So what I think it comes down to with getting those lots by the arena developed properly is getting a decent council in there. PM probably wouldn't want the historical signifigance of the Jack Davis building diminished.

[VicHockeyFan]

Ogden Point? I can hear the howls from the James Bay CA now. Plus that 30-storey propeller turning will cast an annoying shadow into the windows...

It should be at Ship's Point, on that parking lot adjacent to the air terminals, or it should be at the foot of Fort, in the Boom Boom parking lot. Stick it out on stilts a bit into the water if necessary.... Either location you can build it a couple storeys tall, have a ring-type mezzanine you enter on, with slots, looking down onto the main gaming floor at water level...

[Koz]

As I stated at SSP, the major projects in town are keeping quiet until the elections are over. I spoke with the project manager of Townline's Bay project early in the week and she mentioned her plans were holding short for now, as are Westbank's (for the tower of upwards of 24-storeys) and perhaps even the Aria project (two 12-storey towers across from the Marriott, originally planned at 19 and 15-storeys until Pam had her way). The Aria, under a more development-friendly council could very well recover some height.

My sense is things will become quiet until the winter for obvious political reasons. No point spendings thousands chasing rezonings and permits that have the potential of going belly up when a new group of councilors takes shape.

However, all that aside, the City is going through a major downtown plan. Height and density are key points of interest and unless the pro-development, pro-change, sides get in there and make their feelings known we'll end up with a 12-storey height limit. That's right, Pam and her heritage advocates are pushing for a 36m limit on all development. If and when that passes we can forget about 17-storey condos and welcome an era of 12-storey fatscrapers, a ridiculous flat skyline and 5-storey buildings considered as highrises (12-storey buildings would be monsters, afterall). :dunno:

[Guerrero]

I hadn't really worried about it as I thought that it would be something that would just be pushed aside but now I am worried. I am writing a letter to each coucillor tonight if I have time and letting them know why that would be a terrible thing to do.

Perhaps I should list my reasons here and all of you can comment:

By putting a 36m 12 story cap on all new buildings downtown you would be leading Victoria down a path of urban neglect and decline.

- Height limits will make potential developers put their money into places where they know they can build something taller and more profitable. This may be the lower mainland but may also be the Western communities.

-Pushing developers out of downtown and into bedroom communities will lead to a decline in the urban vibrancy of downtown and a loss of property tax dollars. Victoria is for the most part already built out. Except for a few examples there is little empty space left to develop. For the city to maximise its property taxes it must allow developments of increasing height.

-By encouraging taller residential buildings in and around the downtown core you are promoting a greener, more environmentaly friendly city. Fewer people will require cars to get to work as they will be able to walk and people that live in downtown cores are more likely to use public transit.

-By encouraging taller residential buildings you are making our city safer. The more people that live downtown the more eyes there are to watch over our downtown streets. Increased citizen awareness will lessen the pressures on the city police.

- In addition by increasing our downtown population you create a 24 hour city. This is an attractive aspect for tourists but also for small business owners who with increased demand can hire more people which will lower the city's unemployment rate.

- All of the above will make victoria a very attractive city for further development and due to the vibrancy of the downtown and the city's lifestyle may encourage large employers to put up shop here.

Alright I'll take a break but I will think of some more. Please feel free to tear me down and criticize I want it to be a good letter.

[*Jarrod]

ugh...i can't wait until THAT happens...geez, that will improve how victoria looks (yeah...right)

[Koz]

The point the pro-development side should get across is "no moratorium" on downtown development. Creating strict regulations around what can be built based on one group's opinion is simply wrong and will hurt the city in the long run (rising real-estate costs + decrease in building size/height/scope = costlier units). The NIMBYs seem to have no common sense when it comes to the economics of development.

There should be no height limits and no density limits. Each project should be judged on its merits and benefits to the community. If an architecturally significant 20-storey tower is proposed it should be given a chance and not instantly thrown out as an innapropriate proposal. But that's what Pam wants, and that's what heritage/NIMBYs/anti-development types want. They'll get it unless common-sense prevails.

Good on your for submitting letters, Guerrero. I plan on doing the same within the next while and hopefully most others on this forum will, too.

[Koz]

Ahh, good stuff, Guerrero, here's my two cents worth:


Perhaps I should list my reasons here and all of you can comment:

By putting a 36m 12 story cap on all new buildings downtown you would be leading Victoria down a path of urban neglect and decline.


Pam's response would be to beef up density. Density on short buildings, however, results in "fatscrapers." A slender 17-storey tower compared to a bulky 12-storey tower is aesthetically more appealing. Try to get that across, perhaps.


- Height limits will make potential developers put their money into places where they know they can build something taller and more profitable. This may be the lower mainland but may also be the Western communities.


Good, good, a move to the Westcomms is a reality if development becomes too onerous in the core. Developers complain the City is not interested in working with them but rather against them. The Westcomms are definitely working with developers.


-Pushing developers out of downtown and into bedroom communities will lead to a decline in the urban vibrancy of downtown and a loss of property tax dollars. Victoria is for the most part already built out. Except for a few examples there is little empty space left to develop. For the city to maximise its property taxes it must allow developments of increasing height.
-By encouraging taller residential buildings in and around the downtown core you are promoting a greener, more environmentaly friendly city. Fewer people will require cars to get to work as they will be able to walk and people that live in downtown cores are more likely to use public transit.

Exactly, height will create more public space around buildings and allow for more greenery. Promoting blocky lowrises will create a mass of concrete in the core as developers will squeeze as much square footage as they can to make projects profitable.

Not only that, but aesthetically speaking, a flat skyline will look absolutely horrible.



-By encouraging taller residential buildings you are making our city safer. The more people that live downtown the more eyes there are to watch over our downtown streets. Increased citizen awareness will lessen the pressures on the city police.


Again, the likes of Pam would argue density can overcome the issue of height. A good way around this is stating a mix of building types, highrise and lowrise, to bring variance to the streetscape, preserving public space to entice people to move into downtown and all the while making the place livelier and safer.



- In addition by increasing our downtown population you create a 24 hour city. This is an attractive aspect for tourists but also for small business owners who with increased demand can hire more people which will lower the city's unemployment rate.


This can tie in nicely with your comment about developers moving out and losing interest in the political hotbed of downtown. No developers, no developments. No developments, no people. No people...so on and so on...


Good stuff, guy :)

[Guerrero]

Thanks for the heads up I will try to point out the downfalls of fatscrapers in there as well. Can I borrow that bit on project by project decisions you added before?

I think I want to be a BIMBY (Build in my back yard)

[aastra]

I think variety is the key to the success of any city, so any arbitrary "blanket" rule that tries to enforce homogeneity in any form is a bad idea right off the bat. The variety in Victoria's skyline is its distinguishing feature. It's full of buildings of all shapes, sizes and colours, from a bunch of different eras. No one style or era owns the cityscape.

Historically, the mere notion of a 12 story limit makes no sense. Obviously there are many buildings taller than this, some of them almost twice as tall. We live with them, we live in them, we love them. so what's the problem? Where did they get this magic 12 story number, anyway? (Funny thing about height restrictions, it seems like every city has one, and yet no two are the same.)

Contrary to popular hysteria, the current mini-boom has introduced only one new legitimately tall building (Astoria), and even it isn't as tall as the tallest building in town, which was built when I was still wearing diapers.

Meanwhile, the Executive House hotel was built before any of us were born.

Victoria's notable church spires exceed the 12 story line by a fair bit, and they've been doing it for a 100 years. Are they out of scale for the "true" Victoria? Should we cut them back? Let's not forget the unfinished tower on Christchurch Cathedral, which would have broken the mark by a good 10 stories. How un-Victorian it would have been!

There was a slim 10 story tower on Douglas Street in 1914. For its day (especially so for the west coast), it was a legitimate skyscraper. If tall buildings and tall churches were perfectly fine back then, why are their 21st century equivalents considered out-of-bounds?

The so-called preservationists continue to try to define what Victoria is, and then seek to enforce their definition through legislation. To heck with anybody who disagrees with them. This process is not only unfair, it's futile.

A healthy city simply can't be constrained like that, forced to fit some arbitrary mould. A healthy city is constantly growing and changing and redefining itself according to the needs and wishes of its inhabitants. A healthy city is re-invented every hour of every day. We owe the legislative buildings and the Empress Hotel to this cycle of reinvention. Before those great buildings were built, Victoria had seen nothing like them. We owe the magnificent building at Shoal Point and our modern new arena to this very same cycle, just as we will shortly owe Astoria and Belvedere, the Mozart building on Yates, the redeveloped Hudson's Bay store, etc. It never ends.

Actually, sometimes it does end. When a city dies.

[Koz]

Can I borrow that bit on project by project decisions you added before?


Of course, please do. This is actually Lowe's slogan. One day he says he doesn't think buildings will ever be taller in Victoria than they currently are, and then next the man advocates height limits and density caps as negatives for the city.


aastra, you always have a way of putting things into perspective. The Victorian's riding Madoff's wave are indeed playing on the notion that Victoria should be preserved as it was (according to NIMBYs, some lalaland dreamworld where time stood still and the birds...), although they knowingly retain the historic realities (they're history buffs, nonetheless) from the impressionable mind of your typical NIMBY. Nowhere do they celebrate what our city aspired to become and how for a while attained a formidable perch.

We were once a thriving business centre, one of the most important cities on the west coast. We can thank our decline to those who moved here and decided to turn the tides around. Now we battle stagnation, at times even worry our region might fall into recession because of slow growth and a lack of career-type jobs (look how many UVic grads are forced to seek employment elsewhere). Yet when we're faced with prosperity Victorian's come out swinging as though prosperity will kill whatever it is that makes Victoria Victoria.

We worry over economic duldrums, yet fail to embrace economic prosperity. And that's the region's real problem.

[VicHockeyFan]

Regents Park "Gitmo":

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v217/VicHockeyFan/Mvc-0096f.jpg

Across View St.:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v217/VicHockeyFan/Mvc-0097f.jpg

That little trashy apartment building on Johnston, 1000 blk, south side......

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v217/VicHockeyFan/Mvc-0098f.jpg

[VicHockeyFan]

Another turkey fell over the wall in the 1200-blk of Wharf last night.

[*Jarrod]

i saw someone going through the garbage at those apartments on johnson street when i was on the bus

[Koz]

Another person fell over the wall? Geez, that's the third or fourth time now...

[Guerrero]

You know I was walking by "that little trashy apartment building on Johnson" just the other day and I was thinking why has the owner not renovated the building into high end apartments or turned it into a few condos. the location and style are amazing. I would buy that building in a second and fix it up.

Thanks for the input Koz I am just finishing up my letter that I am sending to counsel we will see if I get any responses.

[VicHockeyFan]

^ I agree, but does it have any parking? Monthly rental in the surface lot next door would be about $85 or $95/mo., and not deemed very safe overnight for condo-owners....so a high-end rental would have to show real value to include that kind of upcharge for parking.

When I was selling condos in my building, it became hell when we ran out of parking stalls on-site, even though we offered free for 3 years off-site included in their purchase price. We resorted to taking owners we already had and buying out their onsite parking to free up room....

[Wonderwall]

A Height cap will kill Old Town Victoria just like it destroyed the Champs-Elysee. I like the system where developers illustrate the civic merit of their proposals by buying out the design panel.

[Guerrero]

No one is saying that we should raze old town and put up 50 storey towers, however we are a growing city and do not have the land around us that Paris does to spread out.

Personally I do not want to see all of the wilderness lands around victoria destroyed. Increase urban density save the trees. I am kind of a development friendly environmentalist if all of you hadn't guessed. I also hate suburbs.

[Koz]

A Height cap will kill Old Town Victoria just like it destroyed the Champs-Elysee. I like the system where developers illustrate the civic merit of their proposals by buying out the design panel.

Olde Town should be left alone. No one wants to build highrises there, but why should we limit development elsewhere? Even Paris has 150 meter office towers outside of the immediate historic districts. There goes Pam's "lets be like Paris, everyone :)" pitch.

Moratorium mentalities are as damaging as areas with no development limits (as seen in Houston, for example). A healthy mix of both attitudes gets things done right.

[Wonderwall]

La Défense is six km from downtown Paris (Arc); that would be near VGH or Royal Oak Drive for Victoria.

[Koz]

The historic district in Paris is larger than Victoria, Saanich, Oak Bay and Esquimalt put together. Our old town is, what, one square kilometer, if that? Putting your ratio to work, we should be looking at 150 meter towers at Yates and Blanshard.

When it comes to historic structures, little ol' Victoria, a quaint village on the shores of the Pacific, wants to snuggle up to the big boys (even though there are but a handful of high-quality historic structures in the 1sq km) but when it comes to modern structures the anti-development-types claim Victoria should heed some mystic and enchanted small-town guide to growth and development, for Victoria is indeed a quaint small town.

But, if people want Paris, then lets go. Let's build like Paris (my bet is once NIMBYs figure out what Paris really is, they won't like it either).

Here we are:

http://rst.gsfc.nasa.gov/Sect4/020005.jpg


The following image illustrates perfectly historic structures mingling with highrises. 300 year old buildings mixed with modern skyscrapers. And that is the real Paris. And take note of that density. Too bad Victorian's aspriing to create the next Paris in Victoria would be shocked by the a) density b) height c) proximity of buildings d) lack of green space and so on, and so on... Yes Victoria, let's become the next Paris :|

http://www.johnsmurray.com/files/web101186.jpg

[VicHockeyFan]

^ That looks like the ravine the x-wing fighters had to fly thru to get to the thing they had to shoot to set off the chain reaction that blew up the Death Star in episode III.

[Guerrero]

Just for a little heads up:

Paris Population estimates:

Paris City: 2.15 million
Paris Metro: 10.5 million

People also like to put compare that urban gem of washinton dc

Washington DC City: 573 384
Washington DC Metro: 3.1 Million

Victoria City: 79 000
Victoria Metro: 340 000

Why do these cities always get used as comparisons? Because there is a perception that nothing is over 12 stories in either city? Well that is just wrong. Also why do we want to be the same as anywhere. Victoria is a small Westcoast North American city. We have a beautiful old town district but it is small and it will always be that size. No one is ever going to build more buildings from 19th Century. This does not mean that we have to live in the past. The only reason the old town is there is because at one time people were allowed to build modern buildings. Unless developers are given some incentive like density and height they will build mediocre buildings that will never have any historical merit. At the moment the only buildings under construction that have any hope of becoming historical are the Shutters
(will wait to see how they finish it), The dockside green (so long as all the buildings don't look as alike as in the renderings), the Mozart (unless it is just cheesey). Of modern buildings that are already built that may some day be considered worthy of saving - Sussex building, CIBC building (Come on it is definitely representative of its era), Shoal Point (Tim VanAlstine is going to lynch me), Victoria Regent Hotel (I think it is cool!). No one is going to remember the Castana or that other stupid building on Menzies. Signature building need to be worth building and that is not going to happen unless council allows them to increase density and height. How about allowing increased if they use better materials. Also I would like a no more stucco rule for the city (Maybe I am a NIMBY). What is with that care home on Douglas it would be so much nicer if they had finished it in anything else. Ok that is enough for now :soapbox:

[Koz]

What is with that care home on Douglas it would be so much nicer if they had finished it in anything else.

Ah, perfect point you bring up. There's no problem with mediocracy in this city, in fact it's celebrated so long as there's no height! The fear of highrises has given us a plethora of nauseating 4-storey stucco apartments literring the whole metro. I remember landing on a website a while back where a tourist actually photographed the stucco shacks that are carbon-copied across the region and stated "this is the real Victoria. The architecture is bland the moment you leave the Inner Harbour."

The NIMBYs will revolt against a beautiful 20-storey tower yet become complacent when a 5-storey stucco POS comes down the pipes. And that's Victoria for you.

But of course in James Bay it doesn't matter how big a development, it's too big. Even those who live in highrises in James Bay rail against further highrise development. So much for becoming Paris west if Victorian's revolt against 4-storey buildings among 13-storey highrises... :|

[Wonderwall]

The historic district in Paris is larger than Victoria, Saanich, Oak Bay and Esquimalt put together. Our old town is, what, one square kilometer, if that? Putting your ratio to work, we should be looking at 150 meter towers at Yates and Blanshard. How is population relevant to height? A 150 meter building casts as much shadow in Paris as it does in Victoria. http://www.terragalleria.com/images/france/fran7551.jpeg
My picture is very similar to yours, but I would argue it illustrates how short Paris is, with the exception of various white elephants, ie. Tour Maine-Montparnasse.
And also, if downtown Victoria were developed with super-dense, super tall condos, traffic would get worse and streets would have to be widened, or Downtown would suffocate in congestion. This widening could negatively affect Victoria's most important industry: tourism.

[renthefinn]

If everyone lived closer to downtown in highrises, I think traffic would be better, as no one would need to drive, and since people are always gonna wanna move here we should accomodate additional people in the core, screw those who want to live in new suburbs and destroy the wilderness.

[Koz]

A 3-storey house casts a shadow on the street, too. In the image above all I see are shadows on the streetscape from the congested structures. Towers at least provide some refuge from a continues stretch of shadow. :)

Anyways, If you look closely, you'll see that most of those buildings are quite tall, no, not highrises, but not the height of a modern 5-storey building either. They are also extremely dense, beyond anything seen in North America (with the exception being Manhattan). It's either out or up. And the present council wants out (they have no problem with density, just height). You can fit 50 units in 12-storey building or a five-storey building, take your pick. Traffic will be the same as will the eyes and ears on the streets. Besides, as Ren put it, why worry about downtown traffic if you live there? Traffic congestion is indeed caused by those commuting into the core. Whether downtown is developed or not traffic will be largely dependant on drivers entering the core from the burbs.

But regarding our roads, they are perfectly capable of taking on a greater volume of traffic. Roads in dowtown Vancouver or no wider, in fact most are two-lanes in each direction and some just one (Robson, for example). If traffic becomes a large issue Douglas will run one way and Blanshard another. You can also accomodate a surprising amount of traffic if you time the signals appropriately. Consider removing curbside parking on every downtown road (as many cities already do) and you've got two extra lanes everywhere. There's a reason behind building roads with curbside parking, that being extra capacity should it be required (travel along Shelbourne at 2PM and again at 7PM and you'll see what I mean).

[aastra]

No one is ever going to build more buildings from 19th Century....Unless developers are given some incentive like density and height they will build mediocre buildings that will never have any historical merit.

Bingo! Victoria's distinguishing characteristic is its grand architecture, and yet some people are doing their damnedest to make sure no NEW grand architecture ever graces the place.

Great buildings are still being built, people! They can still be built in Victoria, too. If we let them.

[aastra]

And also, if downtown Victoria were developed with super-dense, super tall condos, traffic would get worse and streets would have to be widened, or Downtown would suffocate in congestion.

Interesting. Any theories on why this catastrophic congestion hasn't befallen Yaletown or Coal Harbour? Or are we suggesting Victorians are so in love with their cars that they would still drive everywhere even if they didn't need to?

[sweetlemon]

You pro-density, anti-sprawl people make some great points, but I'm afraid your arguments will be falling on deaf ears. The Nimbyforce is strong with this city.

Maybe 30 years from now people will look around and think, "Gee, maybe we should have built up instead of building out and smothering Sooke, Metchosin, the Highlands, and the Saanich Peninsula in suburbia." But by then it'll be too late...

[Guerrero]

The forces of good will prevail. Only 3 months till election we need to come up with a SSC Slate that will best represent our views.

[Koz]

The Urban Development Institute of BC, Victoria Chapter, is holding a seminar this fall for all hopefulls (especially for those in Victoria but also including hopefulls from other municipalities) to discuss their stance on land-use issues. Unfortunately their seminars are invite-only, but the proceedings of the event will be recorded and published.

There are several Victoria council hopefuls already lined up who will bring some sense to the table if elected. They realize the growing gap between sense and madness and hope to alter the direction our current council has taken us (namely, build lowrise crap and dismiss grander proposals regardless of merits, amenities, public spaces, design and other criteria). Currently we're seeing a push from a select minority, albeit vocal, that does not properly represent the interests of taxpayers in this City. And it's time for that to change.

sweetlemon, all it will take is a moderate earthquake to destroy most, if not all, structures predating the '50s. The modern highrises will stand (built to withstand even strong earthquakes) alongside heritage buildings in pieces, aka rubble. We're suffocating our city on the basis of "protecting" something that may not withstand the next rumble. If tourists are indeed coming here for the 19th Century architecture (as opposed to side-trips from the mainland - which I was always lead to believe is the reality), we ought to consider a contingency plan should the big one hit. :|

[VicHockeyFan]

Sticky now? That's the death of threads sometimes.

[jada]

I can always unstick it.

[Guerrero]

Well I'm on vacation now, see you guys in a few weeks.

[Koz]

Have a good time guy.

[VicHockeyFan]

We have to try to consolidate this operation, over at SSP, when Guerrero gets back.

[Koz]

I think that's a good idea. I wonder why he's having so much trouble over there...

[jada]

Guerrero maybe doesnt know it, but his registration at SSP was apporved last week. He should try loggin in again.

But screw that.. who needs SSP. SSC is obviously the better forum, because I am mod. :) SO stay here you guys.

[Koz]

Why aren't you a mod on the other side, Jada?

[*Jarrod]

i like this forum. it's cool :D

okay, victoria is full of crazys. i was down in james bay last night on oswego and simcoe near james bay community school and this woman started yelling at my sister and i that "stalking is illegal assholes! i've got a cellphone! i'm calling 911 on you!"...

and she kept up with it until we turned a street...well, i kept on egging her on too...reallly bad language because she pissed me off...i won't say what i said because...it was nasty...but, i've noticed it a lot more, that the are a lot more mentally ill people on the streets of victoria. has anyone else noticed it?

[Wonderwall]

Wow you like to swear at handicapped people; that's totally awesome. Maybe you need a journal.

[Koz]

Yeah, Victoria has always had an interesting community of street people. I basically grew up downtown and have seen it all so take this to heart: don't egg them on as you never know if he/she/they're instigating you for a serious confrontation that could leave you wishing you'd moved along. Downtown is safe but it's not free of violence.

You'll get used to it though, pretty soon you won't even hear or see them as you walk along the streets. Just another part of living in a bigger city than you're familiar with, I guess.

[VicHockeyFan]

More importantly though, is your sister single?

[*Jarrod]

Yeah, Victoria has always had an interesting community of street people. I basically grew up downtown and have seen it all so take this to heart: don't egg them on as you never know if he/she/they're instigating you for a serious confrontation that could leave you wishing you'd moved along. Downtown is safe but it's not free of violence.

You'll get used to it though, pretty soon you won't even hear or see them as you walk along the streets. Just another part of living in a bigger city than you're familiar with, I guess.


yes, i totally understand what you mean. i just lost my cool and i know that the outcome could have been much worse if she meant business.

More importantly though, is your sister single?
yes she is.

how old are you? she's 25

[Koz]

Jarrod...hook a brother up ;) I'm moving back in September :)

[renthefinn]

25, ehh! Same as me, now we're all gonna wanna meet her. Maybe we should have a Victoria meet soon ;).

[aastra]

I lived over by the EMI for years so crazy folk doing crazy things was a matter of course.

Something I really noticed this weekend were the shopping cart people in the neighbourhoods. Victoria has always had its fair share of roaming street folk, but the lack of mid-block lanes seemed to discourage the shopping cart crowd. No more. Maybe shopping cart technology has improved?

[worldwide]

Wow you like to swear at handicapped people; that's totally awesome. Maybe you need a journal.

thats my favorite passtime too. once me and some freinds were doing powerslides around a corner in stanley park on our longboards and some bag lady started saying we couldnt skateboard in the park and that we were somehow doing something illegal so she threatened to call the park police. then she pretended to talk on a cell for a minute, and then bitched us out some more. we just laughed at her, she was a joke

[worldwide]

Koz, what does the graf in your new picture say?

[jada]

I dont know what it says either, but I do know that all the graffiti artists out of victoria add the word "one" to the end of their alias. And thats what appears to be in koz's avatar.

[jada]

Why aren't you a mod on the other side, Jada?

Because I dont want to be. I need a place to goof off. So thats why I post at SSP, and usually only in the skybar.

[Wonderwall]

Let's take this thread back to terra firma; if Victoria were to change from isolated principalities and fiefdoms to one metro govt, how would it work. Would there be wards, shires, arrondisements, districts, or some other smaller breakdown – something to help us identify our own neighborhood and the other neighborhoods that aren't as good as our own – or would it be one amorphous blob of a conurbation? Does it includesooke? Shawnigan? I would have to come out supporting this, provided it not force density on unwitting neighborhoods in the name of urbanists new jesus; smart growth. It does make sense in other areas, though, ie: no small part of Oak Bay Avenue is in Victoria rather than Oak Bay. Having a comprehensive plan for the street would make more sense. A while ago the TC(stands for Total Ccchhhhit) had something about someone old falling down; long story short, police services compromised by borders. They also had a story [pg. A2] about a dog who was nursing some squirrels… someone start writing a newspaper that has actual news, please.

[jada]

But maybe thats what is so different about Victoria. Often news is just the same stories repeated into sensationalism. Does Victoria really have enough "news" to fulfill an entire newspaper every day with fresh news content? No, not unless there were no publishing bans. SO instead youre going to get squirrel interviews and stories about grannies who lose their teeth...which will make these papers money in the end.

About Shawnigan.. IMO I dont think it would entend into the Victoria municipality, because it shares alot more in common with the Cowichan Valley.

[Wonderwall]

It's funny you should mention repeating stories. The TC often runs the same garbage as the vancouver sun, only a while later.

[Koz]

Koz, what does the graf in your new picture say?

"Thesone." He's a member of People Under the Stairs. Signed my cd a while back with that tag so I thought hey, why not...

We chatted with him before the show. Good guy.


Wonderwall, to answer your question (I hope I'm answering your question) amalgamation would result in something like this: three municipalities, one for the core (Vic, OB, Esq, Saan), one for the peninsula and one for the western communities. They would be large enough to have a broader scope but still capable of dealing with unique issues that would arise in each area. If anything, have a broader municipality with more control over cross-regional issues would be better at preserving areas. Density would therefore be concentrated in the core and certain parts of the west while being preserved in the north.

As for Shawnigan and Malahat, they are already "quote unquote" a part of Victoria and you can add Mill Bay, to some extent, too. Part of the reason Victoria's population doesn't grow as "fast" as other centres in the province is many move just across the political CRD border, hence out of the census area, where the housing is much more affordable. They are then counted as part of the valley as opposed to the CRD yet they still work in Victoria. Some even send their kids to Victoria's schools. BC Transit is considering adding commuter transit service across the Malahat and into Mill Bay. Apparently it's one of their longer-term strategic goals as they realize a connection exists. There's a reason the southern valley is growing at a healthy rate but doesn't have the economy to seduce such growth...

Believe it or not, the valley is actually largely dependant on Victoria and its services. The power centre in Langford markets itself to valley residents too, where travel time is equal for somenoe driving from Oak Bay or from Duncan. The CRD actually came up with that data. Hard to believe but I guess it's true.

[*Jarrod]

well, i found this article in the TC today. i don't know if it anyone finds it interesting. i'll also post some peoples comments from canada.com that followed it.



City jettisons density scheme
Neighbourhood associations unhappy with results of 10-year-old bonus plan

Malcolm Curtis
Times Colonist

Thursday, August 04, 2005


CREDIT: Bruce Stotesbury, Times Colonist
The Parc Residence is one building being criticized for its bulk.
ADVERTISEMENT


The City of Victoria has scrapped development rules that left many neighbourhoods with jumbo-sized buildings they didn't want in return for benefits that are hard for most people to see.

For 10 years a draft policy let developers apply to rezone land for projects far larger than plans for neighbourhoods outside downtown allowed.

Under the latest version of the policy, they could bid for buildings with up to 30 per cent more floor space. In exchange, developers provided cash for affordable housing, and amenities such as low-cost housing and art, or a mixture of cash and amenities.

But Victoria council has abandoned the "bonus density" policy in the face of widespread dissatisfaction among neighbourhood associations. Rezoning applications begun before July 21 will continue to be treated under old rules. Neighbourhood plans, approved by council with input from residents, will provide guidelines for all other decisions outside downtown.

Some associations felt bonus density made a mockery of those plans. It was treated by developers as a "right" rather than an incentive to provide local amenities, said Diane Carr, of the Victoria West Community Association.

The Parc Residences, a 12-storey condo block off Wilson and Tyee roads, is an example of a building "maxed out in every direction" that was strongly opposed by residents, Carr said.

Density and height limits were relaxed in return for a $115,000 donation to a park, six condos for disabled people and a "water wall" feature.

The "fortress-like" building is incompatible with the neighbourhood, Carr said. "It's not that we're anti-development, it's just that we want the best development possible for Victoria."

Other associations thought the density bonus idea was fine in theory but flawed in practice. "A lot of average people have difficulty understanding what the public benefits are," said Doug Rhodes, who chairs the Land Use Co-ordinating Committee, an umbrella group of community associations.

Gene Miller, a development consultant, agrees that boosting density in established residential neighbourhoods

doesn't make sense. But Miller, of the Urban Development Institute's Victoria chapter, has argued for expanding the downtown area to include "shoulder areas" such as parts of James Bay, Harris Green, Rock Bay and Victoria West.

Miller said the city could set building heights and simple design guidelines for the larger downtown area with no limits on floor space.

© Times Colonist (Victoria) 2005City jettisons density scheme

http://www.canada.com/victoria/story.html?id=2f2cac96-a9e7-41e2-9ff2-b68f72928780
---------------------------------------------
Name: Forward Thinker
Occupation: Project Manager
Location: Victoria

Cities are surely enjoying the extra tax base with condo developments, sub-divisions (up to 3000 homes), etc, but what about additional infrastructure like roads, water, sewers, etc? In Greater Victoria, it's becoming extremely difficult to 'navigate' those streets. What are city councillors doing? I guess they all have dollar signs in their eyes! And, that doesn't even begin to address the 'baby boomers' demography who will be retiring into condos, leaving neighborhoods with many houses possibly not even used. Wait a few years and you'll see what I mean...
----------------------------------------------
Name: emsa
Occupation: s./o
Location: B.C.

Developers like the Parc bldg. see $$$ for other adventures then citizens--who must endure the glomy hight of the montstrous structures; driving through the area, gives me an errie feeling; of terror invading my view,and peace,
emsa

[Guerrero]

Well I am back. Still feeling a little quesy from all that Mexican food I was eatin :)

So it doesn't look like I missed much on here. I did have a walk around town though and was impressed to see that The Corazon is working on its last floor (while the wave is on its first).

So I was reading on SSP that the waterfront of the harbour has a plan in place finally that includes a new plane terminal? Has anyone seen any plans or know who did up the plans because I would love to see these. Perhaps they just said they were thinking about it ala Belleville terminal.

Hope the meet in Van went well.

[Nanaimo Bars]

Welcome back and Happy Birthday Guerrero!

[Guerrero]

Thank you, I plan to go out and gorge on Thai food.

Looking back I saw Wonderwall ask how the city's amalgamation will work. I may have said this before here but I think the most likely scenario is Victoria joining first with Esquimalt. Then perhaps with Saanich. Oak Bay will never go unless forced it likes to be on its own just like White Rock in Surrey. If it ever happens i would very much doubt there would any smaller decision making bodies created. We can only hope that more power is not granted to Neighbourhood organizations as they tend to not be very balanced. When you think about it Vancouver has just one city council and look what a large area and population it controls. I think there should be a plebicite on amalgamation for the most part I think the majority would be on board, however you will never see a politician voting himself out of a job.

[Koz]

Guerrero, Jada informs us that your account at SSP is good to go.

Sounds like you had good times on vacation!

[VicHockeyFan]

Hey G. I see the Bohemia retail is for lease. Wanna open a coffe shop with me? You'll have to put up all the $.

[Guerrero]

I wouldn' trust me owning any place that provides a substance I am addicted to.

VHF was your garage leaking at your building and that is why they had to tear up all the ground around your building?

Our garage has a huge crack in the ceiling that pours whenever it rains.

I will attempt to log on to SSP again tonight :)

[VicHockeyFan]

^ I've stopped caring about what is happening around my building. But ya, it was leaking somewhere, Lord knows why that means the whole thing had to be repaired. Whatever. Another couple weeks and it'll all be over.

[Brett]

Well, i've been living in Vic for almost two weeks now. This seems like a real nice city people are friendly, easy to get around on the bike, happening downtown full of people.
Im even starting to get the hang of the confusing street layout! One of the things that i have noticed so far is how wierd the harbour looks. You got the nice area by the parliment, then a bunch of ratty looking industrial areas, some new construction here and there, it such a contrast... I hope to see the downtown develop with some nice new condo's in the few years ill be here!

[VicHockeyFan]

^ Welcome.

[Guerrero]

Welcome Brett and you have already noticed one of the cities biggest problems. Speaking about the harbour somebody mentioned awhile back back about the harbour parking lots having a new plan any word on where that is? Or is this just a rumour again...

[*Jarrod]

welcome brett! i've been here in vic for about 2 months or so but i've spent a lot of time here because of family. i hope you're having a wonderful time! are you going to school here, and if so, what one?

[Brett]

Having fun so far :) Im doing a university transfer at Camosun- Landsdowne, i could not get into the course i wanted at Uvic (Roman History) with my crappy highschool marks, so transfer is where its at! I plan on only doing one semester at camosun though, they said if i was number one in my class first semester Uvic would take me in Jan.

[*Jarrod]

eh! i'm doing the same thing...except i have to wait to transfer. same school! lol

[Koz]

Welcome, Brett.

Guerrero, the harbour redevelopment plans have been initiated by the Harbour Authority. The architecture firm is Bing Thom Architects of Vancouver but no plans or renderings have been made public. This project is seperate from the Belleville terminal redevelopment.

[Guerrero]

^
Thanks Koz. I am sure this will move with the lightning speed of the Belleville Terminal as well:)

[Tri-City Guy]

Brett - Glad your enjoying Victoria. Finishing up at UW - they offered me $22,000 to stay. For that kind of money I can endure KW I suppose.