Just been "chatting" to Bust and Gareth on the Warehouses thread (http://skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=198142) about this.

What areas of Liverpool/Merseyside/Wirral do you feel has potential for development?

Just a little list some have got prjects earmarked for them ... some not

Edge lane - Old MTL depot?
Otterspool - festival site
Potentially as much dockland as you can shake a stick at, Garston docks in the south all the way up to Port of Liverpool to the North. If the land is no longer required for maritime what can it be used by/for?
vast swathes of wasteland derelict housing in the North end of the city.
Masses of land behind old airport - is this earmarked for some sort of wildlife project??
On the wirral side again there is an massive of underutilsed derelict dockland that could be better used!
NCP car park behind Littlewoods/St pauls area.


Just a few that sprung instantlty to mind... i await some other excellent ideas... if only i had the money i would do it myself!

Central Docks, MDHC have over the years produced a couple of plans for major redevelopment, all were pretty low density. There delay in building on this prime waterfront site might in fact be a gods send now that towers are being built in Princes Dock, this area with 3 or 4 TOWERS would extend the "cluster zone of towers" and would appear to merge with the CBD.

I have long wondered if it would be possible to drain and develop the fat bit of the estuary, north of Ellesmere Port, south of Speke, by polderising some of the mudflats. Obviously plenty would need to be left for birds, that is important, but if some of the mudflats were drained, it would be possible to create a direct motorway and train corridor north from Ellesmere Port to Speke. As well as being a transport corridor, the land could be used for space-extensive industry, warehousing, recycling and dirty stuff, although, given the success of Speke, over time perhaps a higher class of industry would locate on such man-made islands. Its what the Dutch have been doing for years. Narrowing the river at this point would increase the flow rate and might improve drainage downstream, thus reducing the need for dredging?

This would make a new Mersey crossing at Runcorn redundant. Just an idea, my "Dee Estuary Skyscrapers linked by light railway" idea met with a resounding silence, so please don't feel any need to humour me.

I have long wondered if it would be possible to drain and develop the fat bit of the estuary, north of Ellesmere Port, south of Speke, by polderising some of the mudflats. Obviously plenty would need to be left for birds, that is important, but if some of the mudflats were drained, it would be possible to create a direct motorway and train corridor north from Ellesmere Port to Speke. As well as being a transport corridor, the land could be used for space-extensive industry, warehousing, recycling and dirty stuff, although, given the success of Speke, over time perhaps a higher class of industry would locate on such man-made islands. Its what the Dutch have been doing for years. Narrowing the river at this point would increase the flow rate and might improve drainage downstream, thus reducing the need for dredging?

This would make a new Mersey crossing at Runcorn redundant. Just an idea, my "Dee Estuary Skyscrapers linked by light railway" idea met with a resounding silence, so please don't feel any need to humour me.

Not a bad idea, the biggest problem today is the enviromentalist lobby, anything that would affect the flow of the river and bird habitat would have them up in arms. The Garden Festival site was reclaimed from the river, as a young lad I remember the "cast iron shore" (cazzy) with a sandy beach and cliffs ,then the city built a retaining wall across the bay,from the end of Otterspool Prom to Dingle Oil Jetty and then spent the next 30odd years filling it with household rubbish. If that sort of scheme was proposed today I bet it would take another 30 years to get through the planning procedures.

Such a scheme could accommodate a truly big runway for the North of England, and the ability of a non-London airport to accommodate night flights by the new big aircraft. They could take off over the estuary and south Wirral. Maybe BAA could be be encouraged to invest in a feasibility study?

(Edited: Sorry Woody, I did read your post, but I didnt include my reaction to it in my post, my suggestion of England's longest civil aviation runway may have appeared insensitive. Greater Liverpool has sustained a population fall in the last 30 years, and also a lower than average standard of living. Greater Liverpool has therefore beeen reponsible for considerably lower levels of population than some other city regions, and starts in the development stakes with more "in the bank" so to speak. I am pro-Green, but I believe that good planning could preserve wetland areas while also developing some of the immense mudflat and low water areas of the inner Mersey estuary. Environmental costs would need to be compensated for both within the City region and beyond. Development will go somewhere, it always does, and I think Liverpool has had less than it needs, deserves or offers, and needs to catch up. As a pro-green person, I do not feel awkward suggesting that the fat area of the inner Estuary be examined for land reclamation purposes).

I remember an idea promoted by Alderman Macdonald-Stuart, the last Conservative leader of Liverpool city council, back in the 70s to build an island in the middle of the Mersey for industrial development. Of course, nothing came of it.

I don't think that reclaiming that area of the Mersey would be a good idea because despite the ecological objections (the Mersey is a very important international site for wading birds), it would probably promote silting downstream. The wide part of the estuary contains a vast amount of water that has to funnel between Liverpool and Birkenhead when the tide goes out, therefore scouring silt from the shipping channels.

Also, you would have to consider access to the Manchester Ship Canal. The construction of the canal is meant to have caused the pinning of the channel of the Mersey to the Wirral shore. In previous times it would have meandered across the estuary and kept these areas relatively silt free. I think that is one of the reasons that the South Docks eventually had to be closed - the huge sandbank that built up from the Albert Dock southwards.

A similar thing happened to the Dee estuary with the canalisation of the river upstream towards Chester. That pinned the channel of the Dee to the Welsh shore and led to the silting up of Parkgate, once an important port.

(Edited: Sorry Woody, I did read your post, but I didnt include my reaction to it in my post,. As a pro-green person, I do not feel awkward suggesting that the fat area of the inner Estuary be examined for land reclamation purposes).

No problem :) Apart from the eco and enviromental problems of what you suggest, the costs involved would be astronomical. Money spent on reclaiming "brownfield sites" would be more cost effective. As a pro-green person I am sure that you would wish to see the land reclaimed before the river. Land reclamation using the river for land fill of waste could be the way foreward in the future solving two problems at once, but I think that could be many years away.

Just been "chatting" to Bust and Gareth on the Warehouses thread (http://skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=198142) about this.

What areas of Liverpool/Merseyside/Wirral do you feel has potential for development?

Scouserdave, just viewed your north dock photo`s and no.2 of Bramley Moor dock is brilliant. My favorite area for redevelopment is as I have already posted, Central Docks ---the MDHC obtained outline planning for 1800 houses/apartments back in June 2003. Central Docks consists of the following docks: Nelson, Salisbury, Collingwood, Trafalgar, West Waterloo and Princes Half Tide Dock. Bramley Moor is the next dock north of this area and is not included in the Central Dock redevelopment.

Scouserdave, just viewed your north dock photo`s and no.2 of Bramley Moor dock is brilliant. My favorite area for redevelopment is as I have already posted, Central Docks ---the MDHC obtained outline planning for 1800 houses/apartments back in June 2003. Central Docks consists of the following docks: Nelson, Salisbury, Collingwood, Trafalgar, West Waterloo and Princes Half Tide Dock. Bramley Moor is the next dock north of this area and is not included in the Central Dock redevelopment.
Thanks Woody, there's so much potential in this area. Apart from a few small dry docks, bugger all is happening. Here's a few piccies to emphasise the current waste of space

http://www.**************************/development/central001.jpg


http://www.**************************/development/central002.jpg


http://www.**************************/development/central003.jpg


http://www.**************************/development/central004.jpg

Can anyone gain access to these areas, or are they restricted for health & safety or something.

Can anyone gain access to these areas, or are they restricted for health & safety or something.

Restricted I'm afraid. Not sure whether it's due to H&S or Private Property.

Cheers scouserdave, great pics, does the dockers clock still work ?
Plenty of space for a few nice towers.

Cheers scouserdave, great pics, does the dockers clock still work ?
Plenty of space for a few nice towers.

Cracking question. To my knowledge, the clock's been knackered for years, but for how long, I haven't a clue. I'd love to know when it first stopped.

the clock's been knackered for years...

Something else to fix up. :)


Back to the topic, I reckon the Wirral waterfront has got to be one of the most underrated and underused assets of our territory. A cluster of apartment blocks around Birkenhead/Woodside would effectively add to Liverpool's inner core. The peoplel living here could commute via ferry. New Brighton is in a terrible state. Filling in the Marine Lake and building a Morrisons is not doing the town justice. Bring on Posiedon!

Something else to fix up. :)


Back to the topic, I reckon the Wirral waterfront has got to be one of the most underrated and underused assets of our territory. A cluster of apartment blocks around Birkenhead/Woodside would effectively add to Liverpool's inner core. The peoplel living here could commute via ferry. New Brighton is in a terrible state. Filling in the Marine Lake and building a Morrisons is not doing the town justice. Bring on Posiedon!
Sent a similar post last year, including a pic

Sent a similar post last year, including a pic

You always have to go one better, don't you Dave? :)

You always have to go one better, don't you Dave? :)
LOL!
Hiya Gareth, apologies for the file size, but I had to keep it large to emphasise what an amazing area this is for development. IMHO there is no other local area that remains to be developed with views like this. If I had the dosh, I'd buy the plot immediately.
http://www.**************************/development/central011.jpg

No problem :) Apart from the eco and enviromental problems of what you suggest, the costs involved would be astronomical. Money spent on reclaiming "brownfield sites" would be more cost effective. As a pro-green person I am sure that you would wish to see the land reclaimed before the river. Land reclamation using the river for land fill of waste could be the way foreward in the future solving two problems at once, but I think that could be many years away.

I can than on board, and also the comments about potential silting comments. But there are other considerations.

First of all, brownfield land is still land, and can be expensive, and can cost a lot to get into use because of decontamination, getting services in, and can be in awkward sizes and shapes. So for big developments, not sure there is always going to be affordable and available brownfield sites available. I suppose it depends what we mean by "development", if its big space- intensive uses then it's difficult, if its small business units and houses, then Liverpool is awash with sites.

Second, the population and the economy are growing, and I gather the price of land is as well. So the economics of reclaimed versus brownfield might not be that straightforward in the long run, as the price of land rises.

I'm sure it does cost a lot to reclaim mudflats, and I know it takes a long time, but I can think of very few other places where else a very big all weather 24 hour a day runway can be built in the British Isles.

Won't bang on about it endlessly, I can see there are lots of bits of existing land that need developing, but would be good to see a long-term plan, and currently I dont think there is one.

Hiya Gareth, apologies for the file size, but I had to keep it large to emphasise what an amazing area this is for development. [/IMG]

Hi Dave, you were right to leave the file this large as it helps show more the actual scale of the site. It's rather big, and on your picture, appears to be crying out 'Please develop me, please!

So much potential but seriously how much longer can it be before the money men begin to realise the potential???

I want to see the development of Central Docks but it would be good to see this go hand in hand with the development of the more inland areas reaching up to Scotland Road. There is a very well developed road and rail infrastructure in that area that could be used to bring some life back to the acres of derelict land surrounding them.

With extensive mid to high density development, Liverpool city centre could be extended to link up with Bootle and create one mega Downtown.

Good idea Martin. With all the money going into Housing Market Renewal Pathfinders, it would be good if the Liverpool money could be channelled into some kind of bigger strategic aim such as this.

I want to see the development of Central Docks but it would be good to see this go hand in hand with the development of the more inland areas reaching up to Scotland Road. There is a very well developed road and rail infrastructure in that area that could be used to bring some life back to the acres of derelict land surrounding them.

With extensive mid to high density development, Liverpool city centre could be extended to link up with Bootle and create one mega Downtown.


Martin S, the Northshore Atlantic SIA covers most of the area that you mentioned, not only are Central Docks and Stanley Dock part of the SIA, but a vast area running from Leeds St. up to the Bootle border and inland up to Vauxhall Road. The redevelopment is being actioned by Liverpool Land Development Co. So it is possable that any Central Dock development could also cross the dock road and be intergrated with the city. As you say good road and rail links already exist so this decaying part of the city could become a "hotspot" for city living in a few years.

During last Saturday's meet up, the King Eddy Industrial Estate came into the conversation all agreed this location is a must develop!! I would go even further, it is probably more valuable than the St. Pauls site and an amazing opportunity for some company, if your talking about potential then this is the one!!

It is in a brilliant location, tall building zone, close to everything, quite a large space, occupied with small businesses which could be re-located up to Sandhills were they belong.

If I was a property developer (Beetham take note!!) I'd be going hell for leather buying up these properties, whoever does develop this site, and I think it will happen, will make an asbsolute fortune, now I wonder if I can make an appointment with my bank manager??

Totally bog standard Ind. est buildings no-one will miss these, will they??
http://img233.echo.cx/img233/8127/kingeddys19ne.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

http://img233.echo.cx/img233/7189/kingeddys28uh.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

http://img233.echo.cx/img233/7755/kingeddys31cu.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

This pic shows how central this site is.
http://img233.echo.cx/img233/6549/kingeddys45bp.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

doug, had never thought of it but walked past it so many times, i agree... surely its only a matter of time. You could have five tall skyscrapers on that site. Imagine what a clsuter that would be! :cheers:

Is there anywhere or anything you didn't photograph on your latest mission Doug?! Been very busy, much appreciated :cheers:

Agree with you about this site. Walked around Princes Dock and back into town recently and wondered about the potential for this site. It isn't the right place for industrial shed's, and providing all the businesses could be relocated without too much disruption it'd be fantastic to see this area built up properly.

Leave the area on the other side for the WHS bods and tourists, and lets create a real forest of towers on this side :)

doug, had never thought of it but walked past it so many times, i agree... surely its only a matter of time. You could have five tall skyscrapers on that site. Imagine what a clsuter that would be! :cheers:

or 100 bungalows. :hahaha: :hahaha: :cheers: :hahaha:

Report in the DP today: could be the biggest piece of news this year!!!

Peel Holdings is believed to have paid around £20m for the King Edward Industrial estate, which it has bought from property company, London & Cambridge. Peel wants to use the site to link Princes Dock with the main Dock Rd and the city's central business district.

Peel development director Lindsey Ashworth said "It is in my view that any development on or near the waterfront to be effective has to be properly connected to the rest of the city cente and the adjoining land and land ownership is key to achieving this. Liverpool is a great tourist destination which is being made more accessible by the huge improvements that we have made so far to LJLA. However to improve Liverpool's offer even further, the waterfront needs to become an exciting place that is more easily accessible. To assist in attracting the great cruise liners back to Liverpool we require approporiate but large scale magnificent waterfront development"

This is very exciting news Peel must have some big plans in the pipeline to justify spending £20m on this site, can't wait!!!

i wish they would lend me some money not as though they are short of it, £20m? does that include those warehouses in front of beetham, if so this could bring any number of high rises to liverpool, but as long as the king eddies tower gets built, im happy

Westy check out the pics below, King Eddies Tower is on the King Edward pub site not this trading estate.

have just been looking on google earth, and this really is a major wall inbetween the cbd and princess dock, opening this place up for talls or any type of apartments or office type buildings will be the seamless cohesion of this area, wonder what peels plans are for this area, and what they are going to be about king eddies pub?

I often walk through the King Edward estate (going from Old Hall Street to Princes Dock) and every time I think what a great setting this would be for some quality buildings set in landscaped parkland sweeping down to the dock (getting rid of this section of the dock wall, of course)

Do you know what? I sense that something is really happening now with our city. Something that can't be stopped or reversed. The momentum and impetus is motoring. With the news of King Eddie's pub and business park being bought for what can only be development I get the sense we are going to see monumental change, for the better of course.

Someone said in an earlier post they wanted to see 60+ towers, all well and good but I want to see absolute quality built and with Peel fighting fin our corner I get the impression that is what we will see.

Well, here is hoping. :tiasd:

we will eventually see 60+ skyscrapers on the scene, its just a matter of time, who'd have thought 5 years ago that we would get the two beethams of their heights? its a matter of time really!