china's system is not for everyone, just like china has never had and will never have anything like the holocaust in which millions of people in germany from a certain racial group were driven out of their homes, had their possession stripped and sent to concentration camps for "scentific research". hopefull, the germans will learn to not judge china by germany's past behaviour ... after all, the chinese are not like the germans at all.

:sleepy: :sleepy: :sleepy: :sleepy: :sleepy: :sleepy:

time and again these nazi comparisons.
thats too simple my friend.

it was about todays german media critisizing something in china.
And there is no argument so far that supports the accusation that they did a bad job doing that crtitical review about the resetlement of the residents.

I saw it too on TV.
What they did was quite simple: The went to some of the former residents and asked them about the resettlement.
When you have over one million people resettled its obvious that not everybody will be compensated evenhanded.
That would be a much too difficult, timeeating process.

You can see that at BBI in Germany, where they want to build a new airport.
There werer about 4000 people who had to leave their homes, and the process at court takes about 8 years now. Imagine that for 1 000 000 people!!!

I have no probelm with the argument that not everything in german past and presence is good.
But what I do have a problem with is that some people here argue in a way that it appears as if critisizing something in china always ends with the challenge of the moral integrity of the guy who critisizes.....

Btw: Nice Dam, really.
Are there more Aerial pictures available?

:sleepy: :sleepy: :sleepy: :sleepy: :sleepy: :sleepy:

are you trying to make the excuse that you are too sleepy to think straight?


time and again these nazi comparisons.
thats too simple my friend.

when was the last time i used the nazi comparison?


it was about todays german media critisizing something in china.
And there is no argument so far that supports the accusation that they did a bad job doing that crtitical review about the resetlement of the residents.

you offer criticism and support a serious accusation without providing factual evidence. this can be considered as slandering.


I saw it too on TV.
What they did was quite simple: The went to some of the former residents and asked them about the resettlement.

my god, some germans saw something on german tv, so it must be true!!! :runaway:

if you just think about it, isn't it really clear that what you saw was an one sided story from a small fraction of the former resident's point of view? how many former residents did they interview? how much money were these people given? how much money were they earning before? where have they been settled to? what is their living standard like after the resettlement?

it is very easy to build a negative image from just a few unhappy people. proper journalism would examine both sides' arguments in accusations as serious as the mishandling of the relocation of TGD residents.


When you have over one million people resettled its obvious that not everybody will be compensated evenhanded.
That would be a much too difficult, timeeating process.

the proper term is "time consuming".

your german compariot made the folloiwng serious accusation:

According to german media the relocated people haven't received any compensation (or it didn't reach them thanks to corrupt authorities), lost their jobs and can't find a new one. Some of them even travelled to Beijing to complain about their situation and demanding compensation. They were slapped, almost beaten up and their complaint was ignored.

most people would interprete that accusation as the chinese government simply sent in army and police and kicked millions of people out of their homes and left them out cold -- this is far far far away from the truth. i'm not saying every one of the former residents got satisfactory compenstations, but it'd obvious that the TGD project wouldn't have been able to proceed even if a significant minority of these formal residents had got unsatisfactory compensations. the reason is obvious -- when you rob hundreds of thousands of people of their entire life possessions, you will get a serious large scale riot.



You can see that at BBI in Germany, where they want to build a new airport.
There werer about 4000 people who had to leave their homes, and the process at court takes about 8 years now. Imagine that for 1 000 000 people!!!

again, china is not germany, and most of the former TGD residents had been offered something much better than what they used to have.


I have no probelm with the argument that not everything in german past and presence is good.
But what I do have a problem with is that some people here argue in a way that it appears as if critisizing something in china always ends with the challenge of the moral integrity of the guy who critisizes.....


i have no problem with people criticizing china -- as long as the criticism is constructive. what i do have problem with is people bashing china for just a hell of it or because of their naivity and negative stereotypes.

i have no problem with people criticizing china -- as long as the criticism is constructive. what i do have problem with is people bashing china for just a hell of it or because of their naivity and negative stereotypes.

From the comments you made in other threads i think you would like the German media. I haven`t seen the last dam report but i have seen some others. The media don`t blame the goverment itself but the corrupted small fries, who use the compensation money for themselfes. Didn`t you write some time ago that such people should get shot in the head?

I think i heard somewhere that even the Chinese media reported about the corruption around the three gorges dam.

it is very easy to build a negative image from just a few unhappy people. proper journalism would examine both sides' arguments in accusations as serious as the mishandling of the relocation of TGD residents

Thats exactly the point. Serious journalism ( and also every serious discussion) needs to show both sides.
In this documentation about the 3 georges dam, they clearly showed the arguemts of the pro-side, which is reduction of floods, energy creation,more safety for the people living downstram and so on
But they also showed some people who were quite unhappy with their situation, who didnt get enough compensation and who complained about it.

Thats fair and professional journalism.
You cannot expect anything more in a 45 minute-show on television.

you offer criticism and support a serious accusation without providing factual evidence. this can be considered as slandering.



I am a citizen of a free country, where i am allowed to say what i want to say.
Its not an accusation if the german media shows things that happened and still happen in china today. If you regard it as an accusation its your thing, but thats what FREE media is about : showing aspects of life, but what your personal conclusion is, is up to you.

In contrast to controlled and guided media, thats wants to shown you how you have to think about things( or how the editor or some politicians want you to)

The question is which source I do have to support my position.
And well, yes, thats just the free press, publications and so on.
Its far from being slandering if you argue on this level.

have no problem with people criticizing china -- as long as the criticism is constructive. what i do have problem with is people bashing china for just a hell of it or because of their naivity and negative stereotypes.

Ok, wonderfull, then we are both fine :) because thats also my position.
But what do you mean with construcite critic? What should I do in your oppinon ?
Give a solution to the problem of inadequate compensation in the case of resettlements?

Or is this an arguemt like, "if you have no better soluten ,then shut up?"
There are a lot of things on this planet which are not good, and which I cirisize, but I would have to be superman to be able to solve them. But that does not mean that I am not allowed to state my oppinion.

Can we go back to topic? Does somebody have more aerial pictures? It would be interesting to see a "Before/After" comparision.

Thats exactly the point. Serious journalism ( and also every serious discussion) needs to show both sides.
In this documentation about the 3 georges dam, they clearly showed the arguemts of the pro-side, which is reduction of floods, energy creation,more safety for the people living downstram and so on
But they also showed some people who were quite unhappy with their situation, who didnt get enough compensation and who complained about it.

Thats fair and professional journalism.
You cannot expect anything more in a 45 minute-show on television.


This is not fair and professional journalism, the accusation is not that the TGD should never have been built, but is that the majority of the former residents had not received proper compenstated for their relocation. Your tv program just accused the chinese government of robbing its own citizens of their entire life possessions, and this accusation is only based on the word of several people. I wouldn't call this fair and professional journalism.



I am a citizen of a free country, where i am allowed to say what i want to say.
Its not an accusation if the german media shows things that happened and still happen in china today. If you regard it as an accusation its your thing, but thats what FREE media is about : showing aspects of life, but what your personal conclusion is, is up to you.

In contrast to controlled and guided media, thats wants to shown you how you have to think about things( or how the editor or some politicians want you to)


So, being a citizen of a free country makes whatever you say true? This is not only absurd but arrogant. Do I need to remind you that presidents from free countries have lied on national tv to cover up their sex scandles and wage illegal wars? Do I need to remind you that press from free countries have been circulating rumors and lies and help their government demonize other countries? If your can offer no evidence other than it's from a German media source, then your arguments and accusations are just nonsense and slandering.


The question is which source I do have to support my position.
And well, yes, thats just the free press, publications and so on.
Its far from being slandering if you argue on this level.


Gee, if your free publication told you that earth was flat, would you believe them too? Haven't you heard of the idiom that says never to judge a book by its cover?


Ok, wonderfull, then we are both fine :) because thats also my position.
But what do you mean with construcite critic? What should I do in your oppinon ?
Give a solution to the problem of inadequate compensation in the case of resettlements?

No, in this case, your solution would be to provide research papers that not only have a non-trivial coverage of the people involved but also present the stories from both sides, and by both sides I mean the government and the relocated people. You cannot expect people to believe your accusations just because you saw something on your own tv.


Or is this an arguemt like, "if you have no better soluten ,then shut up?"
There are a lot of things on this planet which are not good, and which I cirisize, but I would have to be superman to be able to solve them. But that does not mean that I am not allowed to state my oppinion.

If you don't have a solution to offer, then don't be offended when the people you criticise tell you to get lost -- after all, they also have the right to state their oppinions.

So lets get to a point I am getting bored by circling around the same thing all the time.

1.This is a discussion forum not a universtiy. It has to be possible to post something without being attacked even though you "only " got it from the free indepent press.
( Where do you get your independent information from)

If you don't have a solution to offer, then don't be offended when the people you criticise tell you to get lost -- after all, they also have the right to state their oppinions.

No, you are allowed to cirtisize everything, without having to have a better solution.
I critisize the US policy in Irak, but that doesnt mean I ahve a better soluton or even have the chanse to realise.
Thats not what Freedom is about.
Whats your oppinion in this case?

Who do I critisize? The people beiing corrupt and peculating money that the resettled should get?
The chinese government for not being able to stop this corruption ?

Non of all that.

I am critisizing people from a communist country who want to tell me what freedom of speech is.

Yep, thats right : German media is a piece of joke, noncritical , unprofessional, not a little bit independent,biased and full of prejudice.

Good to have the communist party of china and their press ( and all the formers here) telleng the truth, the truth and nothing but the whole truht.

I think its time that we install a system like in china in germany again :)

Sorry to tell you the truth, I used to work for the Tagesschau and Tagesthemen, Germany's most watched and most respected news programm ... Yes, they are critical and professional but at the same time they are biased and manipulative.

According to german media the relocated people haven't received any compensation (or it didn't reach them thanks to corrupt authorities), lost their jobs and can't find a new one. Some of them even travelled to Beijing to complain about their situation and demanding compensation. They were slapped, almost beaten up and their complaint was ignored.

Even i'm in Hong Kong , i have never heard of this from the news :sleepy:

^^ I've heard of it though.

most people would interprete that accusation as the chinese government simply sent in army and police and kicked millions of people out of their homes and left them out cold -- this is far far far away from the truth.

Don't twist my words, yeah? How can one interpret my post like that?
And I actually don't take it as truth what I hear in the german media, I just stated what they say. Why some of you feel personally attacked?

So lets get to a point I am getting bored by circling around the same thing all the time.

1.This is a discussion forum not a universtiy. It has to be possible to post something without being attacked even though you "only " got it from the free indepent press.

It is very possible to post something without being attacked -- just don't lie or slander other people/countries, show some respect. Is this too much to ask?


( Where do you get your independent information from)


Mostly from many different sources, as I don't trust any one of them completely.


No, you are allowed to cirtisize everything, without having to have a better solution.

Yes you are, but just don't expect people to react politely when you offer no solutions.


I critisize the US policy in Irak, but that doesnt mean I ahve a better soluton or even have the chanse to realise.

Iraq war is a different issue, but for argument's sake, my suggestion would have been not to start the war in the first place.


Thats not what Freedom is about.
Whats your oppinion in this case?

Freedom is not unconditional, do you have the freedom to be above the law and pay no tax in Germany? Similarly, freedom of speech does not give you the right to slander and verbally abuse other people and lie.


Who do I critisize? The people beiing corrupt and peculating money that the resettled should get?
The chinese government for not being able to stop this corruption ?

That's an entirely different issue, I'm criticizing you because you believed something that is obviously untrue and refuse to see the reason. This debated started when I pointed out that your German tv program on TGD was not accurate on the relocation issue, and you refuse to accept the reasons I gave on the ground that Germany allows freedom of speech -- which has nothing to do with facts of TGD.


Non of all that.
I am critisizing people from a communist country who want to tell me what freedom of speech is.

I think if you criticize people just because of their countries of origin, then your criticism is just bullshit, and no one should take you seriously because your country is responsible for holocaust and Nazis. Oh, I've been living in Australia for almost 10 years, I know what freedom of speech is and how it is practised in western countries. Your slandering doesn't work on me.

Don't twist my words, yeah? How can one interpret my post like that?
And I actually don't take it as truth what I hear in the german media, I just stated what they say. Why some of you feel personally attacked?

I wonder if you have the ability to interprete your own English sentences, what you said originally was:

According to german media the relocated people haven't received any compensation (or it didn't reach them thanks to corrupt authorities), lost their jobs and can't find a new one.

The phrase "the relocated people" means "all the people that were relocated". How else am I supposed to interpret it? If you did not mean "all the people", why didn't you say "some", "a few", "several", "a few hundred"?

If you read my first reply, you will see that I didn't criticize you, I just said that the German media in question obviously did not do their homework and carry out fair and unbiased journalism. It's your compatriot who started this whole debate by defending the quality of the journalism in this particular German program.

From the comments you made in other threads i think you would like the German media. I haven`t seen the last dam report but i have seen some others. The media don`t blame the goverment itself but the corrupted small fries, who use the compensation money for themselfes. Didn`t you write some time ago that such people should get shot in the head?

I don't hate or like German media, I only occasionally watch DW (or something like that) when I flick through my sat TV, I'm just commenting on their obvious lack of professionalism on the people relocation issue of this particular report of TGD and that is it.


I think i heard somewhere that even the Chinese media reported about the corruption around the three gorges dam.

I've never said every single family that was relocated was satisfactorily compensated, I don't even know whether I support the building of TGD. I've also read reports of corruption in the relocation program and local and dam officials got a deserved bullet in the head for stealing relocation money (I wish these scums' families were forced to pay for the bullets). But the scale of corruption implied in DiggerD21's post is just too great for anyone to believe.

The part of your interpretation I don't understand is that they were relocated by military force. I haven't implied that in my post and wonder how one can interpret this.
but you are right, I have to correct my statement. The german reporters of this TV program asked SOME relocated people about their situation which is that THESE people haven't got any compensation and lost their jobs. The reporters then haven't found relocated people who got their compensation and probably implied that virtually NONE of the relocated ones got any (sufficient) compensation.

"no one should take you seriously because your country is responsible for holocaust and Nazis. "

--->no one should take you seriously because your country is responsible for Cultural revolution and the death of millions people....
it's a very stupid argument.

Rem,as a China-basher,what's your feeling?

All your statements toward China are fully negative or biased,what will this kind of behavior bring to you?Will you feel something rummy after sex or what?

The part of your interpretation I don't understand is that they were relocated by military force. I haven't implied that in my post and wonder how one can interpret this.

I thought your Germans were supposed to be good at logic. With out military force or sufficient compensation, how could you possibly convince over a million people to abandon their homes and lives and just pack up a few suitcases of possessions and go somewhere else? You think the WW2 German jews would have been willingly to give up everything they had without the force of the German police and military?


but you are right, I have to correct my statement. The german reporters of this TV program asked SOME relocated people about their situation which is that THESE people haven't got any compensation and lost their jobs. The reporters then haven't found relocated people who got their compensation and probably implied that virtually NONE of the relocated ones got any (sufficient) compensation.

Exactly how many people did they interview and did the reporter actually generalize from statements of a few interviewees to the ridiculous claim that none of the over one million relocated people had been given compensation? Or was that ridiculous post of yours a result of your lack of English skills?

"no one should take you seriously because your country is responsible for holocaust and Nazis. "

--->no one should take you seriously because your country is responsible for Cultural revolution and the death of millions people....
it's a very stupid argument.

and no one should take you seriously because you don't have the ability to
understand other people's posts before putting your foot in your mouth. oh, and because you are french.

my feeling is the three gorge dam is the new great wall of China, a incredible construction which will product much electricity.

and no one should take you seriously because you don't have the ability to
understand other people's posts before putting your foot in your mouth. oh, and you are french.
what you say is more and more intelligent. Oh, and you are chinese.

"no one should take you seriously because your country is responsible for holocaust and Nazis. "

--->no one should take you seriously because your country is responsible for Cultural revolution and the death of millions people....
it's a very stupid argument.
Does China point finger at France, or Germany? I am only asking your dumbasses to leave us alone, clear?

my feeling is the three gorge dam is the new great wall of China, a incredible construction which will product much electricity.

yeah, contrary to popular belief that the great wall of china was built to defend china from the invasions of the northern barbarians, the true purpose of the great wall was to generate electricity from um ... the wind that blows across the wall ... to power who-knows-what in ancient china. :jk:

Yep, thats right : German media is a piece of joke, noncritical , unprofessional, not a little bit independent,biased and full of prejudice.

Good to have the communist party of china and their press ( and all the formers here) telleng the truth, the truth and nothing but the whole truht.

I think its time that we install a system like in china in germany again :)
I guess 9% growth for 28 years is not produced by Xinhua, don't you think?

what you say is more and more intelligent. Oh, and you are chinese.

i'm glad you've finally figured that out, you are not totally hopeless. now, eat your veggie!

Lets cut this short

This debated started when I pointed out that your German tv program on TGD was not accurate on the relocation issue, and you refuse to accept the reasons

Ok.

They made an intview with guys complaining that they didnt get compensation and as they went to court they got kicked out.
Wow, nothing special so far.

Here is the document, the guy at the end is talking chinese

http://www.zdf.de/ZDFmediathek/inhalt/9/0,4070,3935977-6-wm_dsl,00.html

Why do you regard this as an insult or a lie?

yeah, contrary to popular belief that the great wall of china was built to defend china from the invasions of the northern barbarians, the true purpose of the great wall was to generate electricity from um ... the wind that blows across the wall ... to power who-knows-what in ancient china. :jk:
I compare the immensity of these constructions. not their aims...

Lets cut this short

: This debated started when I pointed out that your German tv program on TGD was not accurate on the relocation issue, and you refuse to accept the reasons

Ok. They made an intview with guys complaining that they didnt get compensation and as they went to court they got kicked out. Wow, nothing special so far.

Here is the document, the guy at the end is talking chinese http://www.zdf.de/ZDFmediathek/inha...-wm_dsl,00.html Why do you regard this as an insult or a lie?

since when pointing out a poor piece of journalism is equal to feeling being insulted?

I already told you why I think that partcular report is poor journalism:

(1) It does not report from the perspective of the government which is one of the two sides of the relocation coin.

(2) It interviewed only a handful of clearly unsatisfied people (who were most likely under-compensated) and generalized that to over a million people who were also part of the relocation program.

If you don't think these two missing pieces are serious, then we have nothing to talk about.

I thought your Germans were supposed to be good at logic. With out military force or sufficient compensation, how could you possibly convince over a million people to abandon their homes and lives and just pack up a few suitcases of possessions and go somewhere else?

There is a third way of convincing people: making promises. The people just have to be naive enough to believe in the promises. However I still haven't stated by which method the people were relocated and you are still putting words into my mouth. :sleepy: (And for the records: I haven't stated that the relocated people were naive).

Exactly how many people did they interview and did the reporter actually generalize from statements of a few interviewees to the ridiculous claim that none of the over one million relocated people had been given compensation?

They showed only a handful of interviewed people in their program. However they might have interviewed hundreds of relocated people who all said similar things. But this is open for interpretation.

Or was that ridiculous post of yours a result of your lack of English skills?

I take this sentence as a personal insult. No need for further discussion with you. If you preach more respect towards others then behave yourself accordingly.

I compare the immensity of these constructions. not their aims...

oh, is that what you meant! :jk: seriously, please put some effort into making your sentences less ambiguous.

Here is the document, the guy at the end is talking chinese

http://www.zdf.de/ZDFmediathek/inhalt/9/0,4070,3935977-6-wm_dsl,00.html

Why do you regard this as an insult or a lie?

What did the farmer say?I didn't hear clearly,and I don't understand strange german.

I already told you why I think that partcular report is poor journalism

Nobody knows what the farmer said truly.Maybe he said he loved his hometown,and wouldn't want to move away,but unfortunately this video just showed a subjective report from a german journalist.

L
Here is the document, the guy at the end is talking chinese

http://www.zdf.de/ZDFmediathek/inhalt/9/0,4070,3935977-6-wm_dsl,00.html

Why do you regard this as an insult or a lie?

Sorry, all of the original voice is overwhelmed by german interpretation, so I have no way to prove what he was exactly saying. Based on what I have experienced in US, I can't rule out the possibility that those german are lying. In addition, there are more than 1 million migrants, it is impossible to avoid a single case of abuse.

There is a third way of convincing people: making promises. The people just have to be naive enough to believe in the promises. However I still haven't stated by which method the people were relocated and you are still putting words into my mouth. :sleepy: (And for the records: I haven't stated that the relocated people were naive).

I'm not putting word in your mouth, I'm just trying to argue with you in a logical
fashion. What we are debating is that: how do you convince over 1 million people
to leave their homes and jobs? As you pointed out, there are 3 ways:

(1) Give them sufficient compensation. -- You don't believe this is what happened.

(2) Through military force.

(3) Lie to them.

Can we agree that (2) did not happen on the scale of 1 million people? -- As there has not been any news of large scale masscare and clash between civilians
and military reported in the TGD area, and it would also have tarnished the
image of the dam and the Chinese government forever.

So, as you said, that only leaves the third option. Without making any assumptions w.r.t whether the people were naive enough to buy the
government's lies. The relocation took place a few years ago, and if the over 1
million relocated people still haven't received any compensations, I believe there
would have been a huge riot and nearly impossible to contain without tarnishing
the image of the Chinese government and the dam -- as such riot hasn't been
reported in the TGD area, I don't believe this is what happened either.

Let me just go on record on more time and say that I believe some people have
been under-compensated, but to say all of them have been under-compensated,
it is just too ridiculous to believe.


They showed only a handful of interviewed people in their program. However they might have interviewed hundreds of relocated people who all said similar things. But this is open for interpretation.

You don't know how many people they interviewed, therefore you should not speculate and expect other people to believe your speculation. Even if they interviewed hundreds of people, it's still debateable whether the sample pool is unbiased -- as satisifed people would have probably started new lives in other parts of China.



I take this sentence as a personal insult. No need for further discussion with you. If you preach more respect towards others then behave yourself accordingly.

Since when questioning other people's English proficiency is a personal insult? It's
obvious that you speak German and live in Germany, that makes you more likely
to be a native speaker of German and a learner of English. I admit I made an
assumption here, so correct me if I'm wrong. By that statement, I'm telling you
that I'm willing to believe that you made a language mistake instead of an
attempt to slander China -- it was not supposed to be an insult. You are more
than welcome to criticize my English skills and grammar mistakes -- I won't take
it as an insult.

If you really have to be so sensitive, then so be it.

the farmer(64 years) said that they took his land ( and the land of others in his village) and promised him to give new one.
Then he( and some others) didnt get it because of corruption. Then they wanted to go to court and but theykicked him out with the police.

(1) It does not report from the perspective of the government which is one of the two sides of the relocation coin.

The first half of the documentation is about the governemts goals of the dam, but also that there was a strong opposition inside the governemnt against the dam. Only the last third is about that guy.

Personally, I think its the typical german documentation.
Argumentation for it , argumentation against it, interview with residents.
You can see documentations like that for every single road thats built in germany ;)

It interviewed only a handful of clearly unsatisfied people (who were most likely under-compensated) and generalized that to over a million people who were also part of the relocation program.

they didnt generalize.
They just showed that poor guy and said that him and some others from his village didnt get the compensation. They didnt´t do a generalisation about the whole million relocated.

I dont regard this as a piece of bad journalism, as the points that you stated do not apply here

Sorry, all of the original voice is overwhelmed by german interpretation, so I have no way to prove what he was exactly saying. Based on what I have experienced in US, I can't rule out the possibility that those german are lying. In addition, there are more than 1 million migrants, it is impossible to avoid a single case of abuse.

Just because some journalists in the US didnt say the truth doesnt mean that the germans do the same ;)

In the end this discussion is about how serious german journalism is about---

"how do you convince over 1 million people to leave their homes and jobs "

there is another way ;) build a dam and wait till the water rises ;) the one million will leave for sure

the farmer(64 years) said that they took his land ( and the land of others in his village) and promised him to give new one.
Then he( and some others) didnt get it because of corruption. Then they wanted to go to court and but theykicked him out with the police.

Um ... interesting. Since I haven't seen that report, I cannot comment on exactly what he said. However, I find it a bit hard to understand. Firstly, in order for the corruption to work, the dam official first has to sell the land promised for the farmers then deny the farmers the money, since the land has to be somewhere away from the dam area and also be of farming purpose which means it's not very suitable for development, and since development is generally the primary
reason for land corruption, I just find it a bit hard to believe the dam officials
would go to so much trouble for some farm land. This story would be much more
believeable in other parts of rural China when the land is not flooded to make way
for dams but used for commerical development.



The first half of the documentation is about the governemts goals of the dam, but also that there was a strong opposition inside the governemnt against the dam. Only the last third is about that guy.

I've pointed out to you in previous occasions that the lack of the government's
perspective on the relocation issue is what makes this report poor in journalism -- since the focus of our debate is not on whether the dam should be built, but on how well are the relocated people compensated.


Personally, I think its the typical german documentation.
Argumentation for it , argumentation against it, interview with residents.
You can see documentations like that for every single road thats built in germany ;)

You can argue for or against whatever you want, but if you are not arguing what is meant to be argued, your argument is still irrelevant.



they didnt generalize.
They just showed that poor guy and said that him and some others from his village didnt get the compensation. They didnt´t do a generalisation about the whole million relocated.

According to my impression of what your compatriot said, either he miscommunicated, or the media overgenerlized -- because the most natural
interpretation of your compatriot's original post was that "none of the relocated people were properly compensated.


I dont regard this as a piece of bad journalism, as the points that you stated do not apply here

please read my posts again, and try to understand exactly what issue is being
debated here and see why I regard this particular report is poor on this particular
issue.

"how do you convince over 1 million people to leave their homes and jobs "

there is another way ;) build a dam and wait till the water rises ;) the one million will leave for sure

are you serious? you really think the chinese government would be so heartless and just drown over a million of its own citizens? you really think the chinese govement would be so stupid to create a million-person riot in the heart of one of
its most expensive piece of engineering work? if you are joking, i have to say it's
a terrible joke.

no matter how evil the chinese government may be, i doubt it has reached the
level of the nazies. no matter what you think, china is not nazi germany and will
probably never become anything similar.

This is by far the most stupid discussion I have read for ages. Congratulations to everyone who contributed to it... A real milestone!

I can't rule out the possibility that those german are lying.
Oh My God! Propaganda in China works good apperantly!!!
http://www.rsf.org/rubrique.php3?id_rubrique=554

Angela Merkel is currenly in China. Let's wait what see will say about that

I just read the Frankfurter Allgemeine, a well respected news-paper in Germany, this afternoon where they wrote an article about the Sanxia Dam project. The title says that Mao's dream to build this dam got realised. Well, it was not Mao's dream, it was Dr. Sun Zhongshan's (Sun Yatsen) dream, the founding father of the Republic of China. LOL

That is the general problem with German as well as "western" jounrnalism. Most of the journalists don't speak Chinese (I know some of these jounalists who are stationed in China) and of course have a pour understanding of Chinese culture and history.

BTW most editors working for Tagesschau and Tagesthemen are alcoholics and neurotics. What a bunch of idiots!

Tagesschau isn't the subject here!!!

You chinese people are just too nationalistic to admit mistakes! :ohno:
And if someone attacks your country you can't deal with that and attack back.
I love china but that's what I noticed and I know alot of chinese people here in Düsseldorf.

Oh My God! Propaganda in China works good apperantly!!!
http://www.rsf.org/rubrique.php3?id_rubrique=554

Angela Merkel is currenly in China. Let's wait what see will say about that

Sorry, the "west" is not free of propaganda. The problem is, most people believe "western" propaganda. Chinese don't believe their state controlled media, certainly not Chinese who live abroad.

Übrigens lebe ich seit 28 Jahren in DLand und habe keine Stunde "Propagandaunterricht" in China genossen.

Tagesschau isn't the subject here!!!

You chinese people are just too nationalistic to admit mistakes! :ohno:
And if someone attacks your country you can't deal with that and attack back.
I love china but that's what I noticed and I know alot of chinese people here in Düsseldorf.

No, the Tagesschau is not the subject here. But if Germany's most prominent and most respected news-paper and TV news programm have problem with research, history and cultural understanding of China, besides their biased and manipulative methods, what can you expect from poorly funded and organised institutions who need to make money to survive?

I have worked for NDR (Tagesschau, Tagesthemen) and Süddeutsche Zeitung, another well respected news paper, I know what I am talking about!

Watch the updated news and video please.


http://today.reuters.co.uk/tv/videoChannel.aspx?storyid=1d0e821862b200e78cf41b7276a7925a4fde49e1

Oh My God! Propaganda in China works good apperantly!!!
http://www.rsf.org/rubrique.php3?id_rubrique=554

Angela Merkel is currenly in China. Let's wait what see will say about that
Hehe, if the west tries everything they can to prove China's gov't is bad, then surely you can expect what is going to happen.... You really don't need to be very smart to figure that out.

This ranking is very interesting, though, and I think it is very reliable. However, if I ask that which country is the only rich one grows above 7% annually, that is Singapore (check Singapore's ranking please).......So I don't have problem with strong goverment mandate, because I know it is needed in achieving Chinese well-being.

So, if we are not bothered, what is the matter with you? :)

Oh My God! Propaganda in China works good apperantly!!!
http://www.rsf.org/rubrique.php3?id_rubrique=554

Angela Merkel is currenly in China. Let's wait what see will say about that

so everytime someone from china criticizes something from germany, it's propaganda at work? geez, how is anyone supposed to argue with you germans? haven't you learnt from the fall of the third reich that your germans are not always right?

Tagesschau isn't the subject here!!! You chinese people are just too nationalistic to admit mistakes! And if someone attacks your country you can't deal with that and attack back. I love china but that's what I noticed and I know alot of chinese people here in Düsseldorf.

again, you committed the exact crime you the accuse the chinese of. this whole discussion started when i pointed out to one of your german compatriots that his description of a german report on the people relocation issue of the TGD cannot possibly be accurate. what did i get back as replies? -- as usual -- chinese propaganda at work!!! so tell me who is the one that cannot deal with criticism here?

no matter how evil the chinese government may be, i doubt it has reached the
level of the nazies. no matter what you think, china is not nazi germany and will
probably never become anything similar.

I wouldnt be too sure about that.

^^ well i guess you are just gonna have to wait and see. :dunno:

Westerners still can't accept the opinion from Chinese when Chinese think China is good. Chinese must be brainwashed and nationalist if Chinese say China is good. Chinese are real only when Chinese say China is bad.

Westerners pre-selected conclusions must be true so they think they have the ability to filter every voice from China.

I think China did the right thing in building this dam. I can't wait to see the lake after the water fills up behind the dam. I wonder if in the future they could modify the generators to output more energy than initially planned.

Also if I'm not mistaken, is the water level gonna rise to the elevation of Chongqing? I'm not sure what large city benefits most from the increased transportation capacity from the higher water level.

Chinese have been finding methods to control the flooding of rivers in the past over 4000 years. The founder of Xia dynasty, the first dynasty in Chinese history, are still glorified now because of his contribution in flood control.

To be honest, I'm not sure I support the building of this dam, especially after reading all the opposing views, basically there are three major benefits this dam can bring:

(1) large quantity (3% of all of China's electricity) of hydro-power which is clean.
(2) flood control
(3) increased shipping capabilities -- from 10 million tons to 50 millions tons per year

However, there are just too many signficant problems:

(a) The silt and sedimentation accumulation will raise the bottom of the dam and the river, thereby reducing the dam's ability to carry out flood control and shipping-- this would reduce the benefits of (2) and (3). The current technology used by the dam to solve this problem has not been proven (or disproven).
(b) The dam sits on a sesmic fault line -- if the dam were to burst, that would be the end of the richest part of China.
(c) the quality of the dam may be very low due to corruption.

Honestly, I don't know what to think.

To west medias:
Yes, we built a dam which is bigger than yours.
We understand this may post some threats to your propaganda business. So we provide you a solution: find a wall and hit it. :)

However, there are just too many signficant problems:

(a) The silt and sedimentation accumulation will raise the bottom of the dam and the river, thereby reducing the dam's ability to carry out flood control and shipping-- this would reduce the benefits of (2) and (3). The current technology used by the dam to solve this problem has not been proven (or disproven).
(b) The dam sits on a sesmic fault line -- if the dam were to burst, that would be the end of the richest part of China.
(c) the quality of the dam may be very low due to corruption.

Corruption will bring a higher quality, If my boss bribes me with some holidays or more salary, I will surely do a better job. :cheers:

As your (a/b/c) have mentioned, I had to say the problem is not the dam itself. It is the media bring some bad imagination to common people without any concepts about a real engineering project. I remember some Chinese media even say those samll crannies on the Sanxia dam is quality accident. That's really joking. They don't know all concrete solid have crannies. If one day they find most highrise buildings have deformation joints or aseismatic joints, I guess they will be very scared at the fact buildings are not complete firm unit as they thought.

I understand where all the forumers are coming from. Some criticised the dam construction because people were asked to leave their land. Whether it is a lie that the Chinese government hasnt done enough to secure those who left their homes is indeed arguable. Havind said that, we should be grateful to the media who reported the traumas faced by these people. The local government officers who are involved in persecuting the people should be prosecuted. No doubt about that.

Nonetheless, a crucial question here is, if China does not build a huge dam like this to provide electricity to its huge population, what are the other options should China go for? Build massive nuclear power plants? We all know the latter is certainly the worse option than the first.

Don't put Vietnam into your never-ending discussion, China invaded Vietnam coz Vietnam invaded Cambodia, Vietnam invaded Cambodia because we wanted to topple out the Khmer Rouge when the US and China were shaking hands and nobody gives a damn about Khmer Rouge atrocites. Now it seems the situation has changed but DON'T bring Vietnam into this

I wouldnt be too sure about that.
then you are just an idiot, period.

then you are just an idiot, period.


The overriding principle of this world is NATIONAL INTEREST, not democracy or human rights. Hence a good country always STAYS AWAY FROM other countries, while a bad one always CARES ABOUT others.

Do you actually believe in that?

Do you actually believe in that?

We have seen Russia bankrupted under the euphology of the west, is that enough?

So stay away from us. And I am not interested in Germany.

Corruption will bring a higher quality, If my boss bribes me with some holidays or more salary, I will surely do a better job. :cheers:


"Sorry, your concrete doesn't meet our quality standards."
"Will it meet your quality standards, if I give some thousand dollars in cash? Think of your wife, and your children. You have to pay their education somehow."
"Erm...under these circumstances...ok. We take it."

^^ One imaginary example of corruption. Corruption undermines fairness, working and quality standards and harms the whole economy while it benefits only the people directly involved in the bribery.

come on, guys. we should really not care about some joke western media or haters' biased reports or propaganda against TGD or China. This is our moment, let's enjoy it and let losers crying hard.

Three gorge dam is just the dawn, not dusk of ambitious plans to build giant dams in China. in next 10-20 years, China will and is building 100 new big dams on Yangtse river and its branches upstream Three Gorge.

CHEERS!

We have seen Russia bankrupted under the euphology of the west, is that enough?

So stay away from us. And I am not interested in Germany.

So its the fault of the west that russia bancrupted? If you dont know, it was communims that didnt work out.

China realised that as well and transfomed its economy toward a market economy.

And dont think that china did this alone. It got lots of help and advice from western countries. Many institutions are designed after western models.

So what you are saying is quite ignorant.

I think countries should work together and learn from each other. I am sure that western countries, like Germany, can learn alot from china as well. Nobody has to do the same mistakes other countries already did. Western countries have alot of knowledge about environmental issues. And indeed the chinese government is very interested in it. China cant afford to do the same mistakes. Its population is much higher and progress is much faster.

Anyway, great project!

So its the fault of the west that russia bancrupted? If you dont know, it was communims that didnt work out.

China realised that as well and transfomed its economy toward a market economy.

And dont think that china did this alone. It got lots of help and advice from western countries. Many institutions are designed after western models.

So what you are saying is quite ignorant.


Sorry you are dodging the key point. There are different ways to transform communist economy, the way praised by west failed miserably. While the one successed is still constantly cursed by west. BTW, you need to know that communist system enabled China to establish an industrial system from ground zero, and under west embargo.




I think countries should work together and learn from each other. I am sure that western countries, like Germany, can learn alot from china as well. Nobody has to do the same mistakes other countries already did. Western countries have alot of knowledge about environmental issues. And indeed the chinese government is very interested in it. China cant afford to do the same mistakes. Its population is much higher and progress is much faster.



I really don't have problem with any country. However, it is very annoying to notice that every time when west says something about China, it appears that China is the most horrible place on earth. To be honest, the more we see this, the less we have problem with CCP.

Anyway, I guess this is the fact that we have to live with, cheers.