I've had enough of whinging about Cityrail in other threads in this forum eg trains were late because of this etc... so I thought i'd be a good idea there could be a thread where people can complain about Cityrail. It can be anything like late trains, ticket inspectors, the trains themselves or the poor state of Cityrail in General.

I launch this thread by saying how disgusted I was at a train not being permitted to enter Central Station for 6 mins just after 5pm yesterday because of a bloody red signal. It was the same signals which saw me held on a train for 15 minutes one year ago. I'm fed up at the fact Cityrail can do that, when it's obviously safe for a train to enter a station and be permitted to stay there.

^ Yeah, it's like "just let me off, it's clear ahead" at that stage!!

This is my kinda thread! :bleep:

I take trains only once a fortnight on average, but everytime I do, it's just so ridiculous! (fortunately I live in the inner-city and everything I need is around).

Almost 2 weeks ago was the last time. I stood on Town Hall Station's platform for over 20 mins just to take a train to St Leos. This was at 10.00AM, when many are still making their way to work, there are business people travelling and assorted others are doing their "stuff".

During this time, the indicators changed 3 times as to when the next train was coming, and even then the final one wasn't right!!

Being a fully-fledged transport proponent, I stood there fuming. Not only because I had to wait but thinking objectively on how a city of 4 1/2 million can have such a system!! :no: Your emotions run the gamut - a mixture of civic pride being quashed, embaressment for visitors to Sydney and anger.

As someone said to me a while ago, Sydney's train system is operating like Brisbane's was in the 70s.

:sleepy:

...

lol. I dont understand how it can run so innefficiantly.

What causes them to be delayed? equiptment? bad planning? bad staff?

I recently arrived at Domestic airport terminal from a flight and only waited 5 mins for a train to Wolli creek interchange. Then waited 8 mins for a connecting Cronulla service train. This was at 6.50pm on Monday and arrived at Miranda at 7.40pm. :)

I was quite impressed with the service, although the $12.40 charge on single adult ticket from Domestic to Miranda was a little steep> no wonder that line is suffering from commuter shortage.

what i can't work out is why it took so long and cost so much to make up a new time table that just reduced trains... what kind of think tank where they using?

when i was living on the north shore line, i use to love rail busses (welcome to every second weekend!) because some how they ran frequently and on time.

how can trains be late. they are NEVER late in brisbane. its not as if there is train jams. whats the hold up!

lol. I dont understand how it can run so innefficiantly.

What causes them to be delayed? equiptment? bad planning? bad staff?

Basically an incompetant management, and pollitical interferance for the past 40 odd years.

Today, my crush load cronulla train terminated with 10 seconds notice at hurstville. Both patforms were just full of fuming people.

Also my train from sutherland took 35minutes, to travel what it usually does in 9minutes. Ended up being 30minutes late into the city.

Though it has improved, i haven't had a train run 75 minutes late again

how can trains be late. they are NEVER late in brisbane. its not as if there is train jams. whats the hold up!

Technically you can say there is.... in peak anyways.
They have too many trains, with too many different stopping patterns running, to the city, which means that you usually end up crawling through the city. The underground was designed for 38trains per hour, but with double deck trains, is constrained to around 18 trains per hour, and in the height of peak hour, cityrail tries to get 20 trains per hour though. Also add that in with insanely narrow platforms at the busiest stations.....

This would work, but they would be reluctant to introduce it, as it slows down quite a few trains.

https://www.sharemation.com/rougesoul/theoretical.PNG?uniq=-lexot9

I only travel in the off-peak and the trains don't seem to be late. Even if I just rock up to the station without looking at the timetable it's usually a short wait.
Now just have to wait for them to scrap the R/S sets.

Everything with Sydney's trains. It's all these little things causing one big mess.

* You've got different stopping patterns sharing the same track. What happens is you get express or limited stops (LS) trains catching up to a late all stations train ahead, leaving the Ex or LS to crawl slowly behing the all stops services. This problem can also be contributed to the fact that Sydneysiders aren't used to changing trains to get to their destination. They want to just sit on the train and just be there. The clearways program, will segregate the lines, so some will terminate, and one will have to switch trains to get to wehrever they want to go.
* Lack of signallers - if there were more they'd be able to handle train services cocking up better by being more ready to allow trains to overtake, cahnge track etc with shorter delays for the services waiting on red.
* Double decker carriages increase dwell times at major stops.
* Poor frequencies - who in this day and age wants to wait more than 15 minutes for a train? The threshold is even lower for ppl who are simply changing lines.

Then there's the occasional accident that can't be blamed on lack of funding. Eg, a fatality on the tracks, a fire drill at Starthfield Signal Box (this happened to me a few days ago), etc.

Have a look at this interesting scan comparing Perth's rail speed to Sydney's. It's from a Commonwealth Discussion Paper on Transit Supportive Development for the Better Cities Program in 1995.
http://madmartigan.net/smeghead/railspeed.jpg
[

^ ...and you forgot that a lot of apathetic dorks work on-hand for the system :nuts: :nuts:

Introducing Double Deck would have to be one of the main culprits.

I noticed when I was last down there that it takes alot longer to load and unload because there are so many people rushing for 2 doors.

There also seems to be a lack of infrastructure mostly at entrances to the city loop which seems to be a bottleneck in Peak hour.

^ ...and you forgot that a lot of apathetic dorks work on-hand for the system :nuts: :nuts:

Apathetic dorks that don't speak english... :runaway:

It'd be really nice, but expensive and not entirely necessary to quadruplicate the City Circle.

What occurs atm is the Old Main South Line Trains (Livo via Granville) and Main South Line (Livo via Rego) merge from quad track to just dual track at McDonaldtown because there's only dual track at the CBD. (FYI, Old Main South Trains also share their track pair with Blacktown, slow Penrith, and suburban Main North Trains.)
Same occurs for Bankstown Line and East Hills line trains at Central - two lines on two separate sets of track merging into one.

Now capacity on the city circle isn't a problem itself. If signalling is improved then you'd get trains every 2 min going thru the Circle in each direction, then you can still acheive a good 4 min frequency on the lines one you're out of the Circle. The slight problem would be if two trains showed up at the junction at the same time, then one would have to slowdown or stop for the other to switch track. This would only cause a 1-3 min delay. The main obstacle is dwell times at city stations, as at peak this is a much more frequent & prevalent problem than the former.

Mind you, the fact that a train has to switch track at all causes knock on effect on other lines too. Eg, an EB train from Granville, has to cross the WB track, which could slow down or cause the WB train to Granville to stop.

I launch this thread by saying how disgusted I was at a train not being permitted to enter Central Station for 6 mins just after 5pm yesterday because of a bloody red signal.

Platform?

I'm fed up at the fact Cityrail can do that, when it's obviously safe for a train to enter a station and be permitted to stay there.

If it's red then in all likelihood its not obviously safe. If the signal was on auto then the other train was at most in the signalling 'block' ahead. So the question would be, why wasn't the train ahead moving?

Now if it was being controlled by the signaller, then he was being a dofus (or was overworked). In many cases signallers are incompetent and the competent ones are hamstrung anyway by idiotic train controllers.

Apathetic dorks that don't speak english... :runaway:...and they are the Aussies!! :eek:

I wanna hear more whingey stories - years ahead for those and a hundrerd new threads created for them!!

...

Platform?

If it's red then in all likelihood its not obviously safe. If the signal was on auto then the other train was at most in the signalling 'block' ahead. So the question would be, why wasn't the train ahead moving?

Now if it was being controlled by the signaller, then he was being a dofus (or was overworked). In many cases signallers are incompetent and the competent ones are hamstrung anyway by idiotic train controllers.

It was platform 16 and the service was the Wyong (Via the North Shore Line)Service.

...and they are the Aussies!! :eek:

I wanna hear more whingey stories - years ahead for those and a hundrerd new threads created for them!!

...

You wanna hear a whinging story??

My bankstown train was delayed between Redfern and Erskineville once. . .:lol:

oh...and how come Town Hall has such narrow platforms. . .

Basically an incompetant management, and pollitical interferance for the past 40 odd years.

Today, my crush load cronulla train terminated with 10 seconds notice at hurstville. Both patforms were just full of fuming people.

Also my train from sutherland took 35minutes, to travel what it usually does in 9minutes. Ended up being 30minutes late into the city.

Though it has improved, i haven't had a train run 75 minutes late again



I've read that there have been problems with many Cronulla services in the evening terminating at Sutherland instead of going to Cronulla, and it's been going on for a while. A few weeks ago, the 5:14pm Cronulla service from Central was merged with the 5:19pm Waterfall Service. I cannot remember if it went only to Sutherland or continued onto Waterfall, but it turned up somewhere between the time the services ran.

The 4:29pm Cronulla service from Central which I take each Monday was cancelled, which was unusual. Thank goodness I made it in time to catch the 4:24 Hurstville service, which I do catch sometimes if I feel it will get me to Rockdale ahead of the express (which it does most time I catch it). The next train, the 4:33pm to Waterfall was already at the time running 15 mins late (according to indicator boards) meaning a 20 minute wait was on the cards for those who didn't get on board that train.

I only travel in the off-peak and the trains don't seem to be late. Even if I just rock up to the station without looking at the timetable it's usually a short wait.
Now just have to wait for them to scrap the R/S sets.

I find it to be the reverse. On the Illawarra line trains are 5-10 minutes late during the period. Waterfall bound trains are the main culpruits for the delays. They are 10 minutes late and end up holding trains bound for Cronulla. Peak hour (both morning and afternoon) is better though.

I've read that there have been problems with many Cronulla services in the evening terminating at Sutherland instead of going, and it's been going on for a while. A few weeks ago, the 5:14pm Cronulla service from Central was merged with the 5:19pm Waterfall Service. I cannot remember if it went only to Sutherland or continued onto Waterfall, but it turned up somewhere between the time the services ran.


Yep, i do know that they have been terminating a lot of them early at Sutherland, but this was at hurstville, which was quite unusual. As soon as everyone was off, the cronulla train shunted into the terminating neck at Hurstville, and stayed there. That is very odd - if the train was defective, they would have taken it to mortdale directly, if it was returning to the city, they could have left it on 1, and let the only (citybound) train on one for 30minutes go onto platform 2.

Oh and for some reason it skipped wolli creek and rockdale. it was a bit indecisive about whether it was stopping at kogarah iirc too.

You wanna hear a whinging story??

My bankstown train was delayed between Redfern and Erskineville once. . .:lol:

oh...and how come Town Hall has such narrow platforms. . .

Originally built was the deepest station on the network. There are many cables interfering with TH station, so the planners went with depth rather than width under the George St, where hundreds of cables (water, gas, electricity) snake around the city.

Or perhaps they thought the system would need narrow platforms, because they were expecting a world class, efficient system where waiting times would never be longer than 2 minutes. Frequency of service would not cause long queues...mmmm.... :runaway:

You wanna hear a whinging story??Too right bub! It's not about solutions but about whinging!! http://www.sayhey.co.uk/invboard/html/emoticons/icecream.gif

:rant:


...

A funny insight at the current state of things

http://www.midgetpenguin.com/images/cityra2.jpg

lol, where'd ya find that?

I got it off Railpage a while ago.

Everyone loves this one:
http://madmartigan.net/smeghead/drcosta.jpg
Also courtesy of a Railpage member. (I forgot who)

hahahahahhahhahahahahha....the blue light one :rofl:

Is the city circle a one-way loop, or do trains go in both directions? That could be one way to speed the trains up.

both directions

The city circle is not an independent line btw. It's just an extension of several suburban lines.

^What they should do is make all trains go around the city circle line in one direction. i.e. A train that's just come off the harbour bridge, would go across to Circular Quay and St. James, then south towards Central.

That way, you could end up with all the trains moving in the same direction

^What they should do is make all trains go around the city circle line in one direction. i.e. A train that's just come off the harbour bridge, would go across to Circular Quay and St. James, then south towards Central.

That way, you could end up with all the trains moving in the same direction

There are no lines from the Harbour Bridge to the city circle and no way to do this either.
North Shore/Western/Northern Line trains go straight through the city, stopping at Central, Town Hall and Wynyard.

What I'd like to see is a shuttle running North Sydney<>Central<>Town Hall<>Wynyard<>Redfern

^
That's not necessary. Trains are very frequent between these stations because they are serviced by multiple lines.

There are no lines from the Harbour Bridge to the city circle and no way to do this either.
North Shore/Western/Northern Line trains go straight through the city, stopping at Central, Town Hall and Wynyard.

Yeah. I'd like to see a train maange from 52m abbove sea level on the bridge to turn 90 degrees under/over the bradfield freeway and stop at circi quay! Impossible!

One person vents their fury over transit officers.If you cannot read it the message is:

"THIS TRAIN IS LATE BCOZ CITY RAIL GRONKS SPENT ALL THE MONEY ON FAT USELESS TRANSITS"

http://www.phlog.net/getpic.php?pic=c280f51ce5703fa4e2288d0926d33d9c

(Trip report)
Who says all cancellations are bad?
I was going to Bondi Junction yesterday and got the train from my home station to Town Hall and as soon as i get off at Town Hall the BJ train just arrived :) .
When coming back from BJ I get off at Town Hall and run up the stairs from platform 6 to 1 and as soon as I got up there the doors closed for the Macarthur via Granville train. Next train was a Liverpool via Regents Park and didn't stop at stations between Redfern and Ashfield then all stations to Liverpool. I thought good and in around 7 minutes the train arrived (on time according to the due out indicator). After the train left Redfern the guard announced the train would no longer be stopping at Croydon, Burwood, Homebush and Flemington a few frustrated people in the carraige but a shorter trip for me :) .

Pic taken today:
http://madmartigan.net/smeghead/ssc/dirtytrain.jpg

It's not just the M sets; the Intercity trains and Countrylink trains are also in a dirty state too.

^ hehe. Very high-tech.

I'm taking the train tomorrow, so I'm sure I will post in here afterwards. I always hate taking the trains. Hey, a whinge in advance!!

^What they should do is make all trains go around the city circle line in one direction. i.e. A train that's just come off the harbour bridge, would go across to Circular Quay and St. James, then south towards Central.

That way, you could end up with all the trains moving in the same direction

To reply to your earlier post, the problem is getting the trains to the correct side of the City Circle should you do that. That means that trains coming in from the south would have to cross over to the western lines, over the path of other trains heading in and out of the Circle.

The way it is set up now is so that trains on the Bankstown line can go around the Circle in an anti-clockwise direction and then continue on as an Inner West line service once it heads out west and vice versa clockwise. Same process for the Southern and East Hills lines which also share the same two tracks on the Circle.

The other thing is there is no track leading directly from the Harbour Bridge to Circular Quay. Nor is ther track directly from Museum to Town Hall so it's not possible. The grade that you'd have to have the track at to get trains from the edge of the SHB to Circular Quay would be too steep, the current grade down to Wynyard is barely acceptable, very shallow below parts of the northwestern CBD.

I can't deal with this any longer. Literally, cityrail timetable booklets are half the thickness as supposed to the old booklets 3 years ago!

Sooner or later they'll have one service running at every 1 hour!

I left my umbrella on the 16:52 Strathfield - Gordon service by accident today and I rang up 131 500 to report it. I then get an answering machine message & they told me that retrieving it will cost $4.40. Thats poor service, not to mention goughing. I'm better off buying a new umbrella from a $2 shop.

I can't deal with this any longer. Literally, cityrail timetable booklets are half the thickness as supposed to the old booklets 3 years ago!



Yes, they're not as good as they used to be. You can barely tell them apart They hardly have any info in them liked they used to 10 years ago. I used to like the full coloured covers too which made them look distinct.

I left my umbrella on the 16:52 Strathfield - Gordon service by accident today and I rang up 131 500 to report it. I then get an answering machine message & they told me that retrieving it will cost $4.40. Thats poor service, not to mention goughing. I'm better off buying a new umbrella from a $2 shop.


I think that's pretty generous actually.

The 11:37 train from Rockdale to the city was 6 minutes late on Friday. By the time it got to town hall, it was running 10 minutes late.

I don't understand why trains that go either to or from Waterfall are always running late off peak. there has not been one day over the past year that they have been on time!!!! And then I don't understand why they then take an extra 5 minutes to complete their run. It's a miracle it gets sorted out in time for the evening peak.

Tonight was a disaster. The 1715 from Central was 10 minutes late, rocks up with one carriage having their doors closed and then hardly anyone could board the train as it was overcrowded. I couldn't get on it and only a handful of people managed to cram in!!!!!

Then the 1718 rocks up two minutes later, and half the people were left behind, only adding to their misery. I was very lucky to dodge my way in, just making it inside the door.

I'm fed up with the impact that delays have on the Illawarra line in the evenings. Even a 5 minute delay to trains will send them to capacity and those left behind have to wait even longer to get on a train. Maintaince of trains also has to come under question. I've seen too many carriages with doors malfunctioning lately.

hmm well you got a train fairly easily. The ESR was closed this morning...

The doors, generally, aren't malfunctioning. The car is locked off. Can be many reasons for it from super-leaking Tangara air conditioning to grafitti attacker. But yes, even if one leaf of one of the doors won't open (so that's 1/8 leaves) the car would likely be locked off. In the case of S/K/C sets, a techo can join the train and generally have the thing fixed really promptly, but for any set with plug doors, the problem is likely to be more fundamental...

hmm well you got a train fairly easily. The ESR was closed this morning...

The doors, generally, aren't malfunctioning. The car is locked off. Can be many reasons for it from super-leaking Tangara air conditioning to grafitti attacker. But yes, even if one leaf of one of the doors won't open (so that's 1/8 leaves) the car would likely be locked off. In the case of S/K/C sets, a techo can join the train and generally have the thing fixed really promptly, but for any set with plug doors, the problem is likely to be more fundamental...

I managed to get a train yesterday morning which got into Town Hall just after 10:30, about 10 mins late. Also I noticed that services were terminating at Edgecliff. Some indicator boards were showing 30 min waiting times for outbound services.

The doors, generally, aren't malfunctioning. The car is locked off. Can be many reasons for it from super-leaking Tangara air conditioning to grafitti attacker. But yes, even if one leaf of one of the doors won't open (so that's 1/8 leaves) the car would likely be locked off. In the case of S/K/C sets, a techo can join the train and generally have the thing fixed really promptly, but for any set with plug doors, the problem is likely to be more fundamental...

A handful of people managed to make their way into the affected carriage, presumably through the doors that were working. I wouldn't of been surprised if people travelled through the doors connecting the carriages to get into it.

yes, connecting doors. I don't know if these are meant to be locked or not when the car is locked off. I suspect it may be that they shouldn't so that passengers "behind" the locked off car can still access the driver or guard.

It's also possible that the guard only locked off one side of the car, so when the train stopped at a non-island platform (for example), people could enter but at an island platform they could not. Hopefully this didn't happen because plainly it is dangerous.

Before Sydneysiders continue their whinging this evening about late and delayed services, this is why for this afternoon and evening:

Snap Sydney train strike

11may05
SYDNEY train services will be disrupted over the next 24 hours following a snap strike by train maintenance workers.

The Australian Metal Workers Union and the Electrical Trades Union promoted the industrial action against RailCorp after a random drug-testing unit arrived at the Flemington Maintenance Centre.

RailCorp has been conducting random drug testing of rail safety workers since February last year, in accordance with the Rail Safety Act.

As a result of the strike, CityRail's timetable will be affected during peak hour today, causing some disruption to services.

"There will be enough services to get people home but we will not be able to run our trains to their normal timetable," a CityRail spokesman said.

"We will also need to alter our train crew rosters for tomorrow morning because we will not be able to stable some trains in their normal locations this evening.

"This will affect some services tomorrow morning."

The industrial walkout had affected CityRail train maintenance facilities at Flemington, Hornsby and Mortdale.

Maintenance workers have advised they would not resume work until at least 6am (AEST) tomorrow.

not going to be pretty. All sets that were out on the network (or in out-yards) were available for PM peak. Those that returned to the maintenance depot between peaks were trapped. Services available for PM peak could not be returned to maintenance centres this evening. This in turn means that sets required for AM peak runs will not be in the correct positions. Thus, irrespective of whether trains presently locked in maintenance centres tonight will be released from 6am tomorrow (an hour itself too late to allow a normal peak period), tomorrow's AM peak will be disrupted from sets being in the incorrect positions at the incorrect time.

Look forwarded to hearing "trains are running late and out of timetabled order" from Ms Owynns on your platform tomorrow.

The strike didn't end until 7am, well into my trip to uni. Trains on the Illawarra line were running 20 mins late at 6:30 yesterday morning. Last night, the 1715 took an extra five mins to complete the trip from Central to Rockdale for no reason.

Today was no better either, some trains this afternoon on the Illawarra line were running 10-20 minutes late with 20 minute waits at stations for some services.

Anyone know where to find Sydney's (and preferably Melb too) yearly railway station patronage usage in numbers?

http://www.cityrail.info/aboutus/our_performance/patronage.jsp

I think he wants stations usage figures not overall figures.

I think he wants stations usage figures not overall figures.

You'd have to contact Railcorp for those stats.

hmm well you got a train fairly easily. The ESR was closed this morning...

The doors, generally, aren't malfunctioning. The car is locked off. Can be many reasons for it from super-leaking Tangara air conditioning to grafitti attacker. But yes, even if one leaf of one of the doors won't open (so that's 1/8 leaves) the car would likely be locked off. In the case of S/K/C sets, a techo can join the train and generally have the thing fixed really promptly, but for any set with plug doors, the problem is likely to be more fundamental...

:no: I believe the proper title would be Graffiti Bomber :okay: :banana:

You'd have to contact Railcorp for those stats.

Thanks guys. It's hard to find each railway stations yearly figures... :)

:no: I believe the proper title would be Graffiti Bomber :okay: :banana:

That's correct but what I meant to write was "grafitti-attacked"

What do you guys think about this article from SMH today?

Railway cure could have crippling side effects (http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/Railway-cure-could-have-crippling-side-effects/2005/05/31/1117305622700.html?oneclick=true)

"The State Government's $1 billion plan to untangle the CityRail network does not go far enough and could in fact worsen problems in some areas, according to a secret study conducted for rail officials."

Sounds bullshit to me...

Well their example is Sutherland-Hurstville which won't be a problem so long as the only extra trains run along the Cronulla branch are existing Sutherland terminators. But if you start running extra trains between Sutherland and Hurstville there potentially are problems, the biggest of which is the entry and exit from Mortdale Maintenance Centre.

Otherwise CityRail's point that they're not actually removing the ability of trains to change from track to track (ie not removing points), they're just changing timetabling such that they don't is perfectly valid. I mean nothing actually prevents a train from Bondi Junction travelling to Bankstown now in the same way that nothing would prevent a train travelling from Liverpool to City Circle via Regents Park under the Clearways plan.

sOUNDS good, but I thought recently there was a shortage of rail drivers :?

BTW, $1 billion is not nearly enough to 'fix' the rail system in Sydney.

$1 billion is only for the clearways. That's not expected to fix the system. It is a part of the process.

The 1718 Central - Waterfall service was 10 minutes late again tonight. I managed to get on it as I opted to travel up the back instead of jostling for a spot in the front carriages. I noticed a heap of people failed to board the train as the front carriages were overcrowded. There were only a dozen standing with me at the back.

Remainin problems with Clearways:
o The plan will not be complete until 2010.
o The Lower North Shore between the City and Chatswood will continue to have a mix of all stations and limited stops services in addition to Macquarie Line services, pushing capacity limits and increasing vulnerability. The Illawarra Line south of Hurstville faces similar issues, due in part to the duplication of the Cronulla Line.
o The City Circle will remain unchanged and will continue to be vulnerable to congestion.
o While duplication of track and construction of sidings and turnbacks could allow for an increase in the frequency of services, there is little evidence to show that CityRail will take advantage of this. The plan is more focused on on-time running, than service frequencies.
o Several services will be truncated and become shuttle service so that not all services have to start in the city. Eg, Bankstown Loop services will be truncated at Lidcombe and Inner West services truncated at Homebush. Although this may force people to change trains to get to their destination, provided service frequencies are high (this yet to be determined) travel times should not increase and overall reliability of the network will be improved.
o The plan does not suggest that new lines will be built to satisfy Clearway aims as well as increase coverage.

Couldn't they quadruplicate the North Shore line from Chatswood to North Sydney and use North Sydney as a terminus for some Macquarie/North Shore services pending the forthcoming upgrade of North Sydney station?

Double Post. Please delete.

According to Clearways, they intend to make the Macquarie Line, the new Main Northern Line. Ie, All Hornsby via Epping trains will take this route. And current Northern line services will terminate at Epping.

Concerned only about ontime services?

Key rail pylons 'safe' despite cracks
By Vera Devai
07jun05
HUGE cracks in pylons supporting the rail line at one of Sydney's biggest tourist areas did not pose a safety threat, authorities said today.

Opposition transport spokesman Peter Debnam today asked the NSW Transport Safety and Reliability Regulator (ITSSR) to answer questions regarding "ongoing" damage to a series of pylons supporting Circular Quay railway station and the Cahill Expressway.

Passers-by brought the damage to Mr Debnam's attention, and work to uncover the problem began late last week.

"I've raised this issue this morning with the safety regulator and said what action has been taken in the last week to determine the extent of the concrete cancer in these pylons," he said.

But RailCorp, which has joint responsibility for maintenance and inspection of the structure with the Roads and Traffic Authority (RTA), said the pylons did not have concrete cancer and were structurally sound.

"Inspection reports confirm that the cracks that appear near the top of three piers do not in any way affect the structural integrity of the infrastructure," RailCorp said.

"Work to repair these cracks is expected to begin next month and will be completed before the end of the year."

ITSRR said it was in the process of reviewing repair plans.

"ITSRR have been advised by RTA engineers that RTA testing has shown this is superficial or surface cracking of the pylon and there is not threat to safety," ITSRR CEO Carolyn Walsh said.

"We will continue to undertake our own inspections on the pylon."

RailCorp also said the pylons were inspected regularly, but Mr Debnam said the damage had been evident on the pylons for some time and maintenance checks had not picked it up.

"I think what you've got here is a clear demonstration that the infrastructure of NSW is crumbling," he said.

why won't they just make 2 tracks (1 in each direction) for every single line we ahve, woudn't that be simple? Yet once I think about it, where can we put new rail tracks along existing corridors, and the costs?

Concerned only about ontime services?

Key rail pylons 'safe' despite cracks
By Vera Devai
07jun05
HUGE cracks in pylons supporting the rail line at one of Sydney's biggest tourist areas did not pose a safety threat, authorities said today.

Opposition transport spokesman Peter Debnam today asked the NSW Transport Safety and Reliability Regulator (ITSSR) to answer questions regarding "ongoing" damage to a series of pylons supporting Circular Quay railway station and the Cahill Expressway.

Passers-by brought the damage to Mr Debnam's attention, and work to uncover the problem began late last week.

"I've raised this issue this morning with the safety regulator and said what action has been taken in the last week to determine the extent of the concrete cancer in these pylons," he said.

But RailCorp, which has joint responsibility for maintenance and inspection of the structure with the Roads and Traffic Authority (RTA), said the pylons did not have concrete cancer and were structurally sound.

"Inspection reports confirm that the cracks that appear near the top of three piers do not in any way affect the structural integrity of the infrastructure," RailCorp said.

"Work to repair these cracks is expected to begin next month and will be completed before the end of the year."

ITSRR said it was in the process of reviewing repair plans.

"ITSRR have been advised by RTA engineers that RTA testing has shown this is superficial or surface cracking of the pylon and there is not threat to safety," ITSRR CEO Carolyn Walsh said.

"We will continue to undertake our own inspections on the pylon."

RailCorp also said the pylons were inspected regularly, but Mr Debnam said the damage had been evident on the pylons for some time and maintenance checks had not picked it up.

"I think what you've got here is a clear demonstration that the infrastructure of NSW is crumbling," he said.

Frankly, I trust the opinion of Railcorp engineers far more than an opposition transport minister.
The fix is more to give the public piece of mind than to enhance it's structural integrity, I would think.

That crack was there for decades! Opposition transport minister must be bored...

hey did anyone see article in todays tele about melbournes train strike?
They said there was "chaos" and trains were still faster then ours.lol
CITYRAIL SYSTEM
#900,000 passengers on 2600 services on weekdays,1800 services on weekends
#has 306 stations
#1500 carriages a day
#Aims for 99% until this year, now 92% on time
#In year to June,61% of peak trains on time.
MELBOURNES CONNEX SYSTEM
#440,000 passengers on 1860 services
#207 railway stations
#fleet of 306x 6car trains
#aims for 99.5% of trains to run on time
#In year to April,94% off trains on time.
-----------

I got home 30mins late yesterday and didnt think anything of it. i must be getting complacent?

It would seem, from discussion on Railpage, that the Digital Voice Announcement and Traction Interlocking systems on R/S, K and C sets has been abandoned with all sets commisioned with the system to have it disconnected. Reputedly this is due to the poor quality of door motors used.

I wonder if it will affect the Tangara system which is at present not in use but is (was?) in the pipeline. Tangara's having plug doors require quite a different system. I would think it folly to fit them to sets with pneumatic doors because they take so long to open and close, but sets that have been converted to electric motorised plug doors (as in Millenium trains) would be suitable.

not sure whats going on in the illawara line but railcorp has posted signs along certain underpasses that are going to be closed to traffic. there seems to be a lot of work going on. is this a whinge is i say its annoying?

well Sutherland-Cronulla and Bondi Junction-Edgecliff are closed from today until Monday fortnight. Also Illawarra Mains seem to be closed Sydenham-Hurstville.

But the underpasses you're referring to are probably on the Cronulla branch as the shutdown is to do viaduct/road underpass work and various preparatory works for the duplication.

Its work to check the bridges between Hurstville - Wolli Ck. I saw the signs at THE Subway at Kogarah

well Sutherland-Cronulla and Bondi Junction-Edgecliff are closed from today until Monday fortnight. Also Illawarra Mains seem to be closed Sydenham-Hurstville.

But the underpasses you're referring to are probably on the Cronulla branch as the shutdown is to do viaduct/road underpass work and various preparatory works for the duplication.

There are no illawarra line services this weekend & same for the South Coast line.

& doing the work during the school holidays doesn't do much. I've noticed that the only commuters not using the trains are the schoolkids along with a small number of office workers.

& I'm not happy that there will be less services during the closures as well. Alot of people do use the trains during the holiday periods including families taking the kids for a day out. I've also noticed that intercities will stop at Rockdale in the peak period including some mid morning services and Kogarah will receive a couple. Why is this the case?

well the timetable appears to delete the Cronulla services and patch the stopping patterns accordingly. Then there's a few extra Edgecliff-Hurstville services.

The worst time period is the evening peak pre-positioning between 2pm and 3pm when the service frequency on the Illawarra is the worst and the timetable is augmented by a couple of Edgecliff-Central runs.

The intercities stopping at Rockdale and Kogarah is likely because the Illawarra Mains are closed between Wolli Creek and Hurstville - everything XIL at Wolli Creek if you will. So there is no overtaking opportunity between Sydnenham and Hurstville as there is normally, thus you run intercities closer to a suburban stopping pattern else they run stick for stick (right behind) a suburban. And it has the advantage of providing a couple of extra services at Rockdale and Kogarah. Which can't be a bad thing seeing as there's no fixed "time" that trains arrive under this timetable - services leave Edgecliff rather sporadically about 5 times per hour, unlike the standard timetable which leave Bondi Junction evenly 6 times per hour and gives some regularity to Illawarra timetables.

well the timetable appears to delete the Cronulla services and patch the stopping patterns accordingly. Then there's a few extra Edgecliff-Hurstville services.

The worst time period is the evening peak pre-positioning between 2pm and 3pm when the service frequency on the Illawarra is the worst and the timetable is augmented by a couple of Edgecliff-Central runs.

The intercities stopping at Rockdale and Kogarah is likely because the Illawarra Mains are closed between Wolli Creek and Hurstville - everything XIL at Wolli Creek if you will. So there is no overtaking opportunity between Sydnenham and Hurstville as there is normally, thus you run intercities closer to a suburban stopping pattern else they run stick for stick (right behind) a suburban. And it has the advantage of providing a couple of extra services at Rockdale and Kogarah. Which can't be a bad thing seeing as there's no fixed "time" that trains arrive under this timetable - services leave Edgecliff rather sporadically about 5 times per hour, unlike the standard timetable which leave Bondi Junction evenly 6 times per hour and gives some regularity to Illawarra timetables.

Does anybody else think alot of people south of Hurstville this week aren't going to bother with the trains on the illawarra? If so, expect a LOT of traffic...

A tragedy today on the construction of the Chatswood-Epping line.

Worker killed during rail line construction

A man has been killed during construction of the Epping to Chatswood rail line in Sydney's north.

Emergency crews found the man's body just before midday at the North Ryde construction site of the Epping to Chatswood rail line.

Ambulances were called to the site around 9am AEST when the man's co-workers noticed he was missing.

A nearby sediment pond was dredged and police, and ambulance officers, recovered the man's body from there.

Work on the site has stopped for the day and employees have been instructed not to talk to the media.

The construction union is demanding to know why there was no safety barrier around the pond.

Construction, Forestry, Mining and Energy Union safety officer Dick Whitehead says it is incredible no-one noticed the man missing until this morning, despite the fact the front end loader he had been operating was still running.

"My understanding of it is that there was no safety chains in place round the settlement pond, it appears that he got out of his machine and he overbalanced, fell into the settlement pond and subsequently drowned," Mr Whitehead said.

ABC Online

Copied from Railpage.

tsk tsk...

I've catching peak services services this week and the number of people onboard has been the same as per usual. I've noticed that it's standing room only on mid afternoon services out of the city as well on the Illawarra line

I think Railcorp should of also mentioned about the track closures between Hurstville & Wolli Creek which has resulted in the altered timetable. Thats the primary reason for the changes to the timetable in the first place. I remember back in January when Bondi Junction - Edgecliff was closed and services were not as affected and depending on where you headed, there was no change at all. Plus trains have been forced to travel slowly between Wolli Creek & Hurstville due to trains in front and for safety reasons due to the work. That should of been mentioed as well.

No wonder people complain about not being informed on disruptions.

In January? There were some alterations, but not as much - trains alternated between Martin Place and Edgecliff so the consequence was more to do with train destinations not service frequency.

--

In the wake of the incidents in London, Gloria Parrot (Allan Jones) has gotten whif of information that RailCorp's (and the RTA's) CCTV systems are antiquated, in a state of disrepair and cannot be centrally monitored (nor intercepted by the Police for use in real time, but this is a legal issue). So look for some movement in this area in the next few weeks.

No doubt soon we'll be able to have the Transit Officer Directorate spying on all the people standing around the crowded platform, littering for want of bins and collapsing for want of a drink impossible to get now vending machines are removed. Speaking of the lack of vending machines, my pet hate, I understand the London Underground itself still has snack vending machines; not that I can especially see the risk difference between a snack/drink vending machine and a ticket vending machine. Oh well...

Yep, London and Paris metros still have all their snack vending machines.

the illarawa line is getting rid of 2 old tracks of the 4 track section and replacing them with brand new ones.

Has anyone seen the Ernest the Engine on Comedy Inc on ch 9?. Railcorp has been paid out big time in that sketch countless times

Yesterday afternoon trains on the Illawarra line were fifteen minutes late due to an "operational problem". A Waterfall bound train decided at the last moment to skip Rockdale, Kogarah, and virtually all stations to Sutherland & I was forced off the train at Sydenham, where I had to wait another 15 mins for a train :(

I bumped into someone from Church whilst on the way to the city yesterday and told me that the 10:23 and 10:37 services from Rockdale had been cancelled.

With everyday I travel, things just get worse.

Anymore whingey stories people????

Well, the target mark for "on time" blew out from 3:59 to 5:00 on July 1 and now occassionally for the AM peak 92% of trains run on time (the target; PM trains never even approach it), so theoretically things are getting better, though in reality there's likely no change...

i had one of the worst trips to uni ever yesterday. I ended up being late to class because of it

*All trains on the Illawarra line were 5-10 mins late due to a vandal attack in the morning peak at Bondi Junction
*The 1046 from Kogarah was cancelled, which is the train i take to Central on Thursday because of the late running of trains
*Then the all stations 1052 service rocked up 18 mins late due an injured passenger at Mortdale.

NOT HAPPY JAN!!!!:bash:

Did you know that Morris Iemma arrived 22 mins late to a press conference due to late trains yesterday. Good to see the pollies falling for the #@$% that weve been suffering. Now we want them to get serious and fix it.

^
In fairness, two of those factors are not the fault of Cityrail.

^
In fairness, two of those factors are not the fault of Cityrail.

True, but incomptent management means that we all have to pay the price, not to mention these minor matters bringing trains to a halt, when there could be less problems.

*All trains on the Illawarra line were 5-10 mins late due to a vandal attack in the morning peak at Bondi Junction

a who what where? You can't just vandalise a train at an underground station and not be noticed. But the 8:23 to Waterfall (Tangarbage) left late and very full with one carriage locked off (no power), but I think there could have been a problem with its doors too. I suppose if a passenger interfered with the doors it would be classed as vandalism. It continued to lose time on its entire trip.

CityRail website says "A train requiring mechanical repairs at Bondi Junction caused delays to 15 trains." Probably this service

The day before - Wednesday - there was a passenger strike at Kings Cross at about 11am and a drunken passenger went for a walk from Martin Place to Town Hall in the pre-PM peak.

is anyone effected by new timetable which starts sept 4?
my 1hr 10min trip is now 1hr 20min long! i cant understand how this is improving the network. my collegues also get effected. many services have been either cancelled or made longer by 5-10mins.
damn

I don't get the new timetable.

In every other modern international city the speed of public transport is close to or faster than the car. It motivates the public to use public transport over the car.

Yet in Sydney, the investment in roads is increasing the speed of the car trip and this timetable slows the trains down.

The lack of investment in Public Transport over the years is really starting to bite.

is anyone effected by new timetable which starts sept 4?
my 1hr 10min trip is now 1hr 20min long! i cant understand how this is improving the network. my collegues also get effected. many services have been either cancelled or made longer by 5-10mins.
damn

The old timetable didn't allow enough time for loading and unloading at stations. This is why the Olympic timetable worked. It allowed for that.

is anyone effected by new timetable which starts sept 4?
my 1hr 10min trip is now 1hr 20min long! i cant understand how this is improving the network. my collegues also get effected. many services have been either cancelled or made longer by 5-10mins.
damn

At least you'll be riding a brand new train starting from next year. New millenium train style trains will be operating at Newcastle/Central Coast line.

This from today's editorial in the SMH


The disgrace that is CityRail

You are hurrying to an appointment, and running a bit late. By train, your destination is 25 minutes away; by car, 30. But if you miss the train, the next one leaves 30 minutes later - too late. You may catch it if you run, because experience has taught you the train will probably be late. Then again - who knows? - heaven may smile on CityRail today and leave you with a long wait. So you play safe and take the car.

You are not alone. That decision was made millions of times last year - 6 million more times than the year before, 9 million more times than the year before that - as commuters lost confidence in CityRail. The fall in patronage is, quite simply, a disgrace - an indictment of the State Government's management of Sydney's rail services.

Why would commuters not take to the roads? Sydney's slow trains can try to make up time by failing to stop at stations or not travelling the scheduled distance. Even with these desperate measures, trains are 25 per cent slower than Perth's, one expert says, and still cannot run on time. A new timetable comes into effect next month to fix that. But on-time running is only one measure of a rail service. Services also have to be frequent and regular if commuters are to be tempted out of their cars. It shows the Government's desperation that in devising the new timetable, this second - and obvious - objective has had to be ignored in order to improve performance on the first.

The new timetable with its fewer, slower trains is only a short-term fix, the Government emphasises. We should hope so. The Clearways program is also intended to improve performance. It separates the Sydney network into five distinct segments to ensure that a breakdown on one line does not disrupt services throughout the city. That program will only be finished by 2008 - after the next state election, too late, perhaps, to save the Iemma Government from voters' anger.

They should be angry. The Government has known of the looming rail chaos since at least the Christie report of 2001. That report was ignored. The Government has no alternative but to improve the system. Roads cannot take all Sydney's growing commuter load, nor should they. As one of his last acts before leaving the Premier's office, Bob Carr announced three new rail projects to tackle rail congestion. They must proceed with urgency before this city chokes in its own smog.

At least you'll be riding a brand new train starting from next year. New millenium train style trains will be operating at Newcastle/Central Coast line.

No, the Hunter Line would be the one getting the new railcars.

The OSCARs are likely going to run on the South Coast (especially considering they're privatising the Mortdale sheds.)

The OSCARs are wider stock than even much of our suburban stock. Heck, they're wider than the G's.

The first 41 OSCARS will be used on the South Coast and the next batch will replace all the G-sets and the G-sets will be put into suburban service.

is anyone effected by new timetable which starts sept 4?
my 1hr 10min trip is now 1hr 20min long! i cant understand how this is improving the network. my collegues also get effected. many services have been either cancelled or made longer by 5-10mins.
damn

I'm on the Illawarra line and trains will continue to run as per usual until next year when the new timetable comes. No impact there.

The problem area for me will be between the city and Strathfield especially during the off peak when there will be less trains meaning that I will have to wait longer for a connecting service for at Central. Illawarra line services don't connect up as well which will only add to it. It will prbably mean an extra 5-10 mins of travel time.

& This afternoon there were problems with services. I caught a North Sydney service around 4pm from Strathfield that ended up terminating at the last moment in the intercity platforms at Central, and trains heading out on the Illawarra line were held up at Central for up to 3 mins at a time. The 1621 Port Kembla service, which I caught to Hurstville (which i took because it would beat the 1618 Waterfall service to Hurstville) was held up because they were waiting for staff and the guard said he "was going to be killed" for announcing it.

This afternoon there were problems with services. I caught a North Sydney service around 4pm from Strathfield that ended up terminating at the last moment in the intercity platforms at Central, and trains heading out on the Illawarra line were held up at Central for up to 3 mins at a time. The 1621 Port Kembla service, which I caught to Hurstville (which i took because it would beat the 1618 Waterfall service to Hurstville) was held up because they were waiting for staff and the guard said he "was going to be killed" for announcing it.

Why would he be "killed" for announcing it?

It is practically part of the cityrail honesty policy.
On Tuesday when i was waiting at Mortdale when there was a fatality at Oatley, we had automated announcements continually playing saying more or less
"due to a fatality all services are currently suspended. Please watch the indicator boards and listen to announcements for further information"
The Interurbans (the only trains they let through for a while) also were told the exact reasons for why they were delayed.

The first 41 OSCARS will be used on the South Coast and the next batch will replace all the G-sets and the G-sets will be put into suburban service.

What about these

http://www.cityrail.info/aboutus/trains/osc_control.jsp

Where will these ones operate.

http://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/prod/parlment/hansart.nsf/0/4c110aaa12568fe1ca2570260025dcb3?OpenDocument

Mr JOHN WATKINS: Tragically there was an increase in the number of services delayed by self-harm incidents. Unfortunately, for example, a fatality in April resulted in the delay of 56 services. I also hoped that the report card for April would highlight where more work was needed. For example, delays caused by train breakdowns will be reduced as the Government's massive investment in rolling stock begins to come on line, which will include 122 outer suburban cars worth $439 million, 14 Hunter Valley diesel cars worth $102 million, the public-private partnership to build 498 new railway carriages worth $1.5 billion, and $9 million for the continued refurbishment of the XPT fleet.

Why would he be "killed" for announcing it?

It is practically part of the cityrail honesty policy.


By Disgruntled Commuters who are fed up with their trains being delayed.

The first 41 OSCARS will be used on the South Coast and the next batch will replace all the G-sets and the G-sets will be put into suburban service.

What are the G-sets?

I take a Blue Mountains train everyday (Central to Penrith) and they are great trains - ie, the ones with the yellow reflective windows and comfy yellow seats. Interurbans right?. Sure they are getting old, but I hope they don't replace them with some dressed up Millenium train.

Is there any online info about sydneys trains. Such as different models, etc. How bout how the system works? For example, you can standing on a platform at Strathfield and one train is going to Hornsby. THe next train to pull in 2 minutes later goes somewhere completeky different, say Penrith. Are the tracks in this case switched manually? To what extent is control of the network (such as it is!!!) manual or automated?

I'd be really interested if anyone has the info.

What are the G-sets?

I take a Blue Mountains train everyday (Central to Penrith) and they are great trains - ie, the ones with the yellow reflective windows and comfy yellow seats. Interurbans right?. Sure they are getting old, but I hope they don't replace them with some dressed up Millenium train.

Is there any online info about sydneys trains. Such as different models, etc. How bout how the system works? For example, you can standing on a platform at Strathfield and one train is going to Hornsby. THe next train to pull in 2 minutes later goes somewhere completeky different, say Penrith. Are the tracks in this case switched manually? To what extent is control of the network (such as it is!!!) manual or automated?

I'd be really interested if anyone has the info.

No information on exactly how the system works (find your nearest railfan :p) , however, there's quite detailed information about the suburban and interurban rollingstock available here:

http://www.cityrail.info/aboutus/trains/index.jsp

Pretty much all you need to know - set types, liveries is on there.

You can also get an idea what the new liveries for the XPT and Explorers over here:

http://www.countrylink.info/travelling_with_us/our_fleet

For the record, the purply-blue colour represents the colour on the front of the more 'Intercity' liveried V-Sets.

G-sets are an interurban variety of the tangara.

the 3:25 train at rockdale came 9 minutes late yesterday i got to my distination late because of it!

and also, frequences along the illarawa line have greatly improved. they are now not wasting the extra 2 tracks but using them as well making it very frequent and less congested. (many times i've seen a limited stops train overtake an all stops train on the other tracks.) good job as far.

but frequencies in refern- bondi jnt are at bloodly choke point now, 4 minutes a train on average... that's the same as hong kong's trains.

and also, frequences along the illarawa line have greatly improved.


How can they improve the frequency without changing the timetable?

By not skipping train stations when they're not suppose to be? That's when they're late and congesting the line.

he also mentioned better use of the four tracks between from Hurstville, so it's possible the signallers got better/smarter. But yeah, more likely when they're running on time, they can actually make the passing manourvres in the Working Timetable between Wolli Creek and Hurstville, whereas if there's problems they might be kept on the Illawarra Mains.

4 minutes shouldn't be a problem. Next timetable revision should see 3 minutes at high big. That said, Intercities will probably run to Bondi Junction (as opposed to Martin Place) to simplify things operationally.

Having just experienced, yet again, Cityrail, there are a few things the State Govt could do to improve the service based on what Melbourne already has.

1. Announce the arrival of all trains at all stations
2. New and better lighting at all stations
3. More station names signs on each platform at every station
4. A push button activated announcement of the next 4 trains, arrival times and destinations
5. Announcement on-board trains of the next stop
6. New trains

Having just experienced, yet again, Cityrail, there are a few things the State Govt could do to improve the service based on what Melbourne already has.

1. Announce the arrival of all trains at all stations
2. New and better lighting at all stations
3. More station names signs on each platform at every station
4. A push button activated announcement of the next 4 trains, arrival times and destinations
5. Announcement on-board trains of the next stop
6. New trains

All of those are cosmetic, except the new trains thing which is starting to happen. 1-5 seem to me to be completely unnecessary and largely already in place. Maybe I'm using the wrong stations. Although I guess that's speaking as someone who lives in Sydney. Perhaps signage is inadequate for people from out of town.

76.6% is not good enough in anyone's book.

http://www.cityrail.info/aboutus/our_performance/summary_otr.jsp

...and that's arriving within 5 minutes of time. More worrying is that 8% of trains do not arrive within 10 minutes of scheduled time. That's an awful lot.

...and 2.1% are cancelled!

Don't just the cancelled trains, one should also take into account the amount of stops that are skipped. Stations are skipped to keep lateness low. Lots of conflicting stats there. :)

he also mentioned better use of the four tracks between from Hurstville, so it's possible the signallers got better/smarter. But yeah, more likely when they're running on time, they can actually make the passing manourvres in the Working Timetable between Wolli Creek and Hurstville, whereas if there's problems they might be kept on the Illawarra Mains.

4 minutes shouldn't be a problem. Next timetable revision should see 3 minutes at high big. That said, Intercities will probably run to Bondi Junction (as opposed to Martin Place) to simplify things operationally.

Keep in mind that the BJ turnback can handle at most 20tph with current signalling infrastructure. Now, adding the intercities puts it at 22 in peak if I recall correctly. Meaning a few trains will need to turn at MP.

Still, I doubt it'd cost as much as the turnback to upgrade the signalling...

such "signalling restraints" (which are more likely theoretical maximum capacity due to station dwell times) are present on the whole line - no track pair in the CityRail area, City Circle included, carries more than 20 trains per hour.

I think i have a rough idea why all off peak waterfall-bondi junction trains are late!!! It's simply because they are forced to lag behind South Coast services heading to Central. You have to give priority to the Intercity service, even though it is running on time most of the occasion, and waterfall services are generally stop at all stations from Waterfall to Hurstville, and there is no chance for the intercity to overtake the Waterfall service except at Sutherland (three tracks there).

I don't follow. Your (hypothetical) suburban service is behind the IC, taking stops, but is still being held up by the IC which stops only at Sutherland and Hurstville?

I have spoken to a station master and he said it's not really the train driver's fault. He said 70% of the delays are caused by passengers itself because of the time it takes to load and unload and people keep on blocking the doors. Then there are people running when the door closes, etc. He said there were people committed suicide at Central, Town hall and Wynyard stations.

Fabian, its not quite that for the Illa line.

The primary reasons for laterunning (off peak are)
:exponential delays on the cronulla line - this happens all day from morning peak. (Got a surprise when my train went express Sutherland to Central a little while ago) and in Off peak you get some very strange cronulla patterns as they try everything to get them back to running ontime.

(Cronulla, all to sutho, Mortdale, Hurstville, Wolli Ck, Redfern all to Bondi. Cronulla, all to Sutho, hurstville, Sydenham, Redfern all to bondi etc and the one above)

Freight Trains: The freight trains do not run through their 1tph gap as they should... They are supposed to be 4min behind the sutherland local all the way into hurstville, then they have their own tracks... Usually tehy are up to 8min behind the sutho train, which leads to further delays.

The switching of trains.

I think it goes Sutherland - Bondi, Bondi - Cronulla, Cronulla - Bondi, Bondi - Waterfall, Waterfall - Bondi, Bondi - Sutherland. So when the trains late on one segment, it causes the others to be later.

The interurbans do cause some problems, but usually they let the suburban go infront of the interurban if it is running more than 5min late - and then the interurban uses the local tracks and passes the suburban around rockdale.

Also i find that the Waterfall - bondi trains are the most reliable... they usually arrive within +2 min of the scheduled time... The cronullas on the other hand....

Fabian, its not quite that for the Illa line.

The primary reasons for laterunning (off peak are)
:exponential delays on the cronulla line - this happens all day from morning peak. (Got a surprise when my train went express Sutherland to Central a little while ago) and in Off peak you get some very strange cronulla patterns as they try everything to get them back to running ontime.

(Cronulla, all to sutho, Mortdale, Hurstville, Wolli Ck, Redfern all to Bondi. Cronulla, all to Sutho, hurstville, Sydenham, Redfern all to bondi etc and the one above)

Freight Trains: The freight trains do not run through their 1tph gap as they should... They are supposed to be 4min behind the sutherland local all the way into hurstville, then they have their own tracks... Usually tehy are up to 8min behind the sutho train, which leads to further delays.

The switching of trains.

I think it goes Sutherland - Bondi, Bondi - Cronulla, Cronulla - Bondi, Bondi - Waterfall, Waterfall - Bondi, Bondi - Sutherland. So when the trains late on one segment, it causes the others to be later.

The interurbans do cause some problems, but usually they let the suburban go infront of the interurban if it is running more than 5min late - and then the interurban uses the local tracks and passes the suburban around rockdale.

Also i find that the Waterfall - bondi trains are the most reliable... they usually arrive within +2 min of the scheduled time... The cronullas on the other hand....

I find it that the Cronulla services are more reliable, both in the peak and off peak. Waterfall services in the morning peak are good, but after 9am start running late and most afternoons, in the peak, they run on time. I've not been on one Cronulla service that has skipped stations between Hurstville & the City. Overcrowding of those services is more of a worry.

Over the past 18 months not one off peak service running to and from Waterfall between 9:30am and 2pm has been on time. The worst services are the 1037, 1107 & 1137 (all Rockdale Times) to Bondi junction along with the return services between 12pm and 2pm. On Friday the 1101 (arrives 1107 at rockdale) from Hurstville was six mins late and by the time it reached central 2 mins late.

And for that service that went sutherland - central, did it even bother stopping at Hurstville and Redfern? Did the guard give reasons for this whilst on board?

I find it that the Cronulla services are more reliable, both in the peak and off peak. Waterfall services in the morning peak are good, but after 9am start running late and most afternoons, in the peak, they run on time. I've not been on one Cronulla service that has skipped stations between Hurstville & the City. Overcrowding of those services is more of a worry.

Over the past 18 months not one off peak service running to and from Waterfall between 9:30am and 2pm has been on time. The worst services are the 1037, 1107 & 1137 (all Rockdale Times) to Bondi junction along with the return services between 12pm and 2pm. On Friday the 1101 (arrives 1107 at rockdale) from Hurstville was six mins late and by the time it reached central 2 mins late.

And for that service that went sutherland - central, did it even bother stopping at Hurstville and Redfern? Did the guard give reasons for this whilst on board?

By the way.. the 11:02am train at Hurstville is a cronulla train... the 11:12am is the waterfall train. The 10:38, 11:08, 11:38am (rockdale times) trains are all cronulla trains actually....

Fair enough about the laterunning times for the waterfalls... I usually catch them from either Mortdale or Sutherland and i have generally found that they are more reliable, but yeah, there are points in the day where you just give up on the timetable. The Waterfall Trains should be more reliable simply because they are given a longer "rest" time at waterfall in comparison to the cronullas. ~25min rest time at Waterfall, ~16min at Cronulla, ~18min at Sutherland. (off peak timings)

He did apparently, but i didnt hear it. The train was transposed due to extreme laterunning, and i'll say it was the fastest trip into Central i've had in a long time from sutherland (22min) we went through Redfern at full speed too.

If thats the case, then the Waterfall trains to the city off peak are more reliable but then how do they turn into late running services on outbound services to Waterfall.

I take the 1048 (Rockdale time) to Central often in off peak on uni days and they have always come on time.

As I have recently moved, I travel via Hurstville these days, but I'm still working off Rockdale Times, until i get used to Hurstville times. Travel time to and from Hurstville from Rockdale is 5-6 mins.

The train patterns run Sutherland - Bondi, Bondi - Sutherland & Waterfall - Bondi, Bondi - Cronulla, Cronulla - Bondi, Bondi - Waterfall . So when the trains late on one segment, it causes the others to be later.

- Cronulla trains turn into Waterfall trains at Bondi, which is the primary reason. If they didn't the delays on the illa could be shocking.

it seems when one train runs late, the ones behind it will run late as well.

i think it's funny that old Whitlam's song about Pokies that has the line "just so they can say that the trains run on time..."

Well now they can't even say that! Makes you wonder exactly where all that revenue goes to.

i laughed my ass off when i saw that cityrail advert about trains being on time :laugh:

Well mine came on time to and from uni.

The problem with the new timetable is that it's written for late running and peak trains. It is written so that a late train can make up lost time so it is not late for subsequent runs throughout the day. If you catch an off peak service like I did today, the train has to stop and wait for the timetable to catch up. This happened twice on my journey up the North Shore line. At Gordon, we were advised we would be waiting for 2 minutes and at North Sydney, it was 3 minutes.

Bah. I'm happy. It's running on time and there's more intercity trains stopping at my station.

Trains were on time (no later than a minute) for all three trips i made to and from Central yesterday. Quite impressed really.

The new timetable has gone smoothly for me as well, and the trains have come on time between Strathfield and Central. It doesn't take that much longer either, only a minute or two.

Despite the Illawarra line keeping the same timetable, their trains on Monday and Tuesday were closer to time.

Despite the Illawarra line keeping the same timetable, their trains on Monday and Tuesday were closer to time.

A consequence of other lines being on time so crew are on time for their connections. We'll ignore the fraccas at Bondi Junction at 5:00pm Monday though I suppose - missing relief driver it seems --> 18 delays: very, very crowded down Illawarra services...

Sydney train services remind me of what you get over in Central and South America.

The pendulum may start swinging back to investing in rail and public transport as people are fed up with high petrol prices and traffic jams. Get the price up to 2 bucks a litre and people will be screaming for a "Tube system" in Sydney.

Sydney train services remind me of what you get over in Central and South America.


They're safe, clean, frequent, just a little slow; I don't see the parallel.

After the timetable change, the train I'm catching in the morning tends to come 2-3 min early and leave without waiting. It's worse than being late. :(

Sydney train services remind me of what you get over in Central and South America.

The pendulum may start swinging back to investing in rail and public transport as people are fed up with high petrol prices and traffic jams. Get the price up to 2 bucks a litre and people will be screaming for a "Tube system" in Sydney.

Hell, it's already needed... We could use another line heading down this way... The Cronulla branch gets PACKED... Yeah, OK, the duplication will help, but it'll only lead to more people catching the train (which is a good thing) so there's gonna need to be a new line down here within say 15-20 years.

Even trains that start at hurstville get jam packed after a few stops, maybe to around Rockdale...

Even trains that start at hurstville get jam packed after a few stops, maybe to around Rockdale...

Yeah, ever since they cut express services from there!!!! You have two groups now competiting for the one train. It's standing room from there these days. :( At least it isn't as cramped as the Cronulla services, which are packed to the rafters by then.

Randwicked sez:

Tube from CBD > Sydney Uni > Newtown > Sydenham > Airport, then under the Cooks River onto a surface line along the former F6 alignment all the way to Miranda.
You could extend this line north through Mosman to the Northern Beaches.

A 50 old male passenger died yesterday afternnon at Chatswood Station. He was lifted off the tangara train so it doesn't cause delays. Shortly, there was an announcement if there are any medics on board. Train officer and a student did the CPR but couldn't revive him. His wife was with him when this scene happened. 3 min later, the paramedics arrived but i presume it was too late. His face was red/bluish and i presume he has a heart attack.

Shit ay. Someone died on the plane on my last trip to London.

50. That's really to young to die, isn't it?

What kind of a question is that? Who's actually 'too old'?

I dunno, people talk about "he/she lived a good life" etc when they think "well, his/her time has come"...

As far as I'm concerned anyone younger than my parents (like this guy) is WAY too young to die.

Check this out

http://www.cityrail.info/news/051014-carriages.jsp

Intercity V set carriages are withdrawn because of corrosion problems. The intercity tangaras has replaced them. I guess the new rolling stock will be crutial...

It's only a small number of V sets, those built using mild steel. Heaps more info and discussion on the Railpage forums for those interested.

I think that explains why one Dapto bound train on Friday was replaced by suburban tangara carriages. It was the 1056 from Hurstville.

Why arent they replacing them with the interurban versions of the tangaras instead or other V-sets? It's silly.

Fabian- its because there are no more spare Vsets or Gsets... The Intercity fleet was very close to its maximum output before the 15 cars were removed from service - that meant that there was no more trains in reserve to cope so they had to use suburban trains.

Wasn't the plan to use the first OSCARs to replace these original U sets though?'

Though that might have gone by the way side when the current plan to remove G-sets from interurban running came up...

Thats right Hornetfig....

Though apparently Stage 2 of the OSCAR fleet is meant to do that. Though if the original ones are withdrawn permanantly then the Gsets will haveto be in service for a little while longer at least until stage 2 of the OSCAR fleet is ready.

Does anyone notice how people hog up the seats, especially on Tangaras? It annoys me in peak hour that people are forced to stand, when in fact there are seats for them. I was lucky to secure a seat on the "overcrowded" 733 Hurstville - City service, only because a woman was kind enough to move into the middle.

Yeah, there seem to be an awful lot of stupid people who think they should be able to put a bag on the seat between them and the window or them and the next person. The vestibule area on Tangaras is the worst, but that's more of a design problem (because of the pole, the seats aren't quite big enough for two or three people).

Making the padding on the seats separate (I think that's the way the seats are on M-sets) for each person helps because it makes it uncomfortable to be a hog.

While I'm in this thread, time for a whinge! Yeah!

I've caught a few weekend services on the South line in the last few months and every one of them has been a painfully slow (and late) experience. Between Central and Flemmington we were lucky to go above about 40km/h and spent a long time stopped waiting for... the driver to wake up? I don't know what we were waiting for, but it wasn't anything I could see. The first time the train was 10 minutes late (because of old timetable), after that, 5 minutes late (which I suppose is on time...).

I just don't understand it... the trains only run every half hour, why can't they timetable them properly to avoid congestion with such big gaps?!

Thats right Hornetfig....

Though apparently Stage 2 of the OSCAR fleet is meant to do that. Though if the original ones are withdrawn permanantly then the Gsets will haveto be in service for a little while longer at least until stage 2 of the OSCAR fleet is ready.

Important point: V-Sets are NARROW-WIDTH stock, as compared to the OSCARs which will be at the upper end of MEDIUM-WIDTH, being wider even than a good proportion of Sydney's suburban stock. The distinction is essential, because unless you're prepared to close the Blue Mountains line and piss off a whole lot of people.

It's nearly time to look into a new narrow-width train anwyay - the V's that have been withdrawn are almost 40 years old (hence a matter of years away from retirement) and should probably be scrapped anyway. This said, I do like the V's - after all, they're easily the best trains in the fleet.

All of the interurban stock should have been narrow-width. It eliminates operational issues.

All of the interurban stock should have been narrow-width. It eliminates operational issues.

But to maintain the same capacity, the length of V sets are required, which as you know introducues its own operational problems.


Between Central and Flemmington we were lucky to go above about 40km/h and spent a long time stopped waiting for... the driver to wake up? I don't know what we were waiting for, but it wasn't anything I could see

Probably the service in front. You of course wouldn't be able to see it. If you were in about the first two cars you may have been able to see the aspect of the signals (colours - red over green - slow, orange over green - caution, green over green - clear) were at.


Does anyone notice how people hog up the seats, especially on Tangaras? It annoys me in peak hour that people are forced to stand, when in fact there are seats for them. I was lucky to secure a seat on the "overcrowded" 733 Hurstville - City service, only because a woman was kind enough to move into the middle.

get more assertive, start to sit down in that "half seat" space they've left or shuffle into the gap in the middle...

Does anyone notice how people hog up the seats, especially on Tangaras? It annoys me in peak hour that people are forced to stand, when in fact there are seats for them. I was lucky to secure a seat on the "overcrowded" 733 Hurstville - City service, only because a woman was kind enough to move into the middle.

Who's forced to stand? Why don't you ask them to move their bag so you can have a seat? I've never even had to, people always move their bags if there are people who require a seat. I catch peak services up and down the north shore line all the time and without fail, every seat is occupied by a person, not a bag.

Yeah. I always ask people to remove their bags from seats if there aren't any vacant seats nearby.

if those high school students dis-obey, then write a letter to school for quick and speedy retribution. Usually my mean and sweaty face works when dealing with school students 95% of the time.

get more assertive, start to sit down in that "half seat" space they've left or shuffle into the gap in the middle...

If they get uppity and try and ignore me, I usually go to plant my big arse ON their bag. That gets 'em moving.

Yesterday's whinge felt so good I'm going to go for it again. What's with all the 6 carriage trains on the north/north shore line lately? The occasional one isn't so bad, but I've noticed two in a row a few times (after not catching the first one to avoid the overcrowded stink). When CityRail buy new carriages, do they buy extras or just enough to cover the ones they're replacing?

It also annoys me that there are often a few trains three minutes apart, then the next 10 minutes later, then a few close together etc. I know this is because the north shore (between Central and North Sydney, where I tend to travel) is an amalgam of several lines, but wouldn't it make more operation sense to space them evenly? It would certainly avoid having hoardes of people crowding the 10 minute train (something that, under the old timetable, would result in it and subsequent trains running late) and then the subsequent two or three in the next few minutes being empty (and therefore dwelling at stations for what seems like forever just to fulfil the slow timetable).

Usually my mean and sweaty face works when dealing with school students 95% of the time.


So what happened 5% of the time?

They get personal...but usually reintragative shaming by fellow commuters work. i.e. grabbing other commuter's attention and stare at them and their school badge. You should see how keen they are to complain on school's for their student's mis-behaviour.

People who sit on the end of a seat instead of moving in really annoy me, why the hell not move the whole way along!? And this morning I went to move a seat to face the direction of travel which was already facing a girl and she asked me to sit else where as that was a seat for her bag!? The bag wasnt even on there, she had it in her lap and was going through it. I kindly told her where to go (I am not a morning person), OK and one more ... why the hell do people wait to get to the ticket gate before they start to look for their ticket!? Mine is in my hand by the time I get to the top of the escalators! ARGHHHHH Dont even get my started on people who stand on the wrong side of escalators!

i would have told her where to go too.... some people think the world revolves around them.....

I think the world may have revolved around her, she was a bit of a hefty wedge! :o)

The thing that annoys me most about school students is not about hogging the seats for paying commuters but rather how they sit on the stairs and floor, especially when the trains are crowded. They can get very noisy at times too.

There's one school at Kogarah where most of the students take the train and they flood the platforms at Kogarah each afternoon, its a sea of students. It makes the crowds waiting for peak hour trains in the morning look like nothing. When the trains come, many of them stand, as most of them are going to either Hurstville, Rockdale, Wolli Creek, or Sydenham as for many it is a short trip (I have seen them stand as far south as Mortdale). I used to trouble getting off the train because the students were blocking the doorways. One afternoon I nearly didnt make it off thanks to them.

When CityRail buy new carriages, do they buy extras or just enough to cover the ones they're replacing?

Generally they start off buying extras but the old ones fall over before they're delivered.

E.g.

Tangaras: the last batch of Tangara's are "Outer Suburban Tangaras", they have toilets and different seats. They're used on Springwood, Wyong and South Coast services. They were supposed to be normal Tangaras but the order was ammended to what we see today. Had they been delivered normally, they'd have replaced the 1964 Tulloch stock that was eliminated last year (the ones painted grey instea of being stainless). Instead they replaced the last single-deck interurban U-sets (from the 1950s) as well as locomotive-hauled and some diesel railcar services on the South Coast.

E.g. 2

Millenium Trains: the contract for the Millenium train was for up to three stages. Stage I would have replaced the 1964 Tulloch stock they ought to have been replaced in 1996. Stages II and III would have eliminated 6 cars trains and provided the rolling stock necessary for Chatswood-Parramatta. Only Stages I and II went ahead. You still have 6 car trains. It is dubious as to whether there is enough stock to service Chatswood-Epping

E.g. 3

OSCARs: These aren't even delivered, but already 16 Double-deck interurban V set cars have been withdrawn due to corrosion. Despite what is said publically at the moment, these will never return to service. So already the OSCARs are required but are not delivered. It had been planned to use these OSCARs to return the Outer Suburban Tangaras to suburban service (what was meant to happen in the first place), but not these 16 cars have to be dealt with.

It also annoys me that there are often a few trains three minutes apart, then the next 10 minutes later, then a few close together etc. I know this is because the north shore (between Central and North Sydney, where I tend to travel) is an amalgam of several lines, but wouldn't it make more operation sense to space them evenly?

They are evenly spaced (or very close to it) Central-North Sydney.

They are evenly spaced (or very close to it) Central-North Sydney.

It's the 'close to it' part that sucks - I seem to have a knack of arriving at the station just when there's a larger gap (I never check the timetable, just turn up). For example, this morning I got to Central at 9.32 (just as the doors were closing on that train) and had to wait for the next one at 9.44. 12 minutes is a long time at that time of day, which meant a very crowded platform of people trying to fit onto a very crowded train. The next two trains were at 9.47 and 9.51; why not bring the 44 and 47 trains forward a few minutes and get some hot even spacing action?

In any case, I think I jinxed myself with my whinging. Tonight at North Sydney I got to the station to find an already crowded platform with 8 minutes till the next train, which turned out to be 6 carriages packed full of people... thank goodness for train (another 6 car train!) already waiting on platform 3 that left a few minutes later!

I jumped on a train just as the doors were closing at Central once.

Didn't realise it was terminating. I ended up in the sheds at Mortdale.

For those who want to see Oscars progress photos, check out this website

http://www.railgallery.hk.st/

Then Cityrail --> Oscars

And here

http://www.railpage.com.au/f-p279065.htm#279065

I jumped on a train just as the doors were closing at Central once.

Didn't realise it was terminating. I ended up in the sheds at Mortdale.

Then what happened?

Then what happened?

The train stayed in the shed for two minutes, then headed all the way back to Central without stopping. Seemed a bit of a waste. Don't ask me, I don't understand the mysteries of timetabling.

I jumped on a train just as the doors were closing at Central once.

Didn't realise it was terminating. I ended up in the sheds at Mortdale.

Oh mate!! thats a classic

It's the 'close to it' part that sucks - I seem to have a knack of arriving at the station just when there's a larger gap (I never check the timetable, just turn up). For example, this morning I got to Central at 9.32 (just as the doors were closing on that train) and had to wait for the next one at 9.44. 12 minutes is a long time at that time of day, which meant a very crowded platform of people trying to fit onto a very crowded train. The next two trains were at 9.47 and 9.51; why not bring the 44 and 47 trains forward a few minutes and get some hot even spacing action?

Well have a look at the timetable and see where they're coming from and at what times...



I jumped on a train just as the doors were closing at Central once.

Didn't realise it was terminating. I ended up in the sheds at Mortdale.

Knock on the driver or guards' door (depending on which half of the train you're in), would have scared the living daylights out of them (especially the guard who was probably asleep given an empty working...)

And how about this, the 1232 Cronulla - Bondi Junction service terminates at Hurstville and people are forced to swap to a Mortdale bound train that terminated at Hurstville before ferrying passengers on that service into the city. The Cronulla train then became the Mortdale Service. How stupid was that :bash:

well you weren't delayed too bad from that, it seems, though you had to swap trains, might have been easier to exchange crews and transpose the runs at Hurstville.

well you weren't delayed too bad from that, it seems, though you had to swap trains, might have been easier to exchange crews and transpose the runs at Hurstville.

The train ended up leaving Hurstville 10 mins late :bash:

The train patterns run Sutherland - Bondi, Bondi - Sutherland & Waterfall - Bondi, Bondi - Cronulla, Cronulla - Bondi, Bondi - Waterfall . So when the trains late on one segment, it causes the others to be later.

- Cronulla trains turn into Waterfall trains at Bondi, which is the primary reason. If they didn't the delays on the illa could be shocking.

I was at Miranda this morning and the 824 arrived 4 mins late at 828 this morning. This is the same service that arrives at Rockdale at 852 (after checking the timetable). i have no idea why it was late. When they stop they spend the same time as per any other station up the line.

Knock on the driver or guards' door (depending on which half of the train you're in), would have scared the living daylights out of them (especially the guard who was probably asleep given an empty working...)

Hah, I tried that, no response. But when the train was stopped in the shed the guard walked through, and was like "what the fuck are you doing, mate?" and I was like "don't get uppity with me, you bastards kidnapped me."

I found this great site full of photos of abandoned tunnels. I never knew platform 26/27 at Central station existed!

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~trainman/tunnels.htm

Wow?!? Platform 13/14 in Redfern

What i read about the platform 26/27 was supposed to be the line that goes all the way to airport. I wonder if this can be used for lightrail!!

There is also a discussion happening that they may use this line for NW/SW line for Leppington? You know, building a new line in 15 years time.


Think of the possibilities...

I found this great site full of photos of abandoned tunnels. I never knew platform 26/27 at Central station existed!

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~trainman/tunnels.htm

Wow?!? Platform 13/14 in Redfern

What i read about the platform 26/27 was supposed to be the line that goes all the way to airport. I wonder if this can be used for lightrail!!

There is also a discussion happening that they may use this line for NW/SW line for Leppington? You know, building a new line in 15 years time.


Think of the possibilities...


If you ever take the lift down to the bondi line platform at Central it's pretty hard to miss the platform - they usually have the lights on and you can see it through the small glass windows in the lift doors.

I was thinking the same thing about using 26/27 for a new line, however was told it's apparently not possible. Something to do with the configuration of the tunnels beneath it...

Think of the possibilities...

The fact that there are a number of disused platforms around the network is not going to be a factor in spurring on rail expansion. As evidenced by the new rail line plans, they're more likely to build adjacent interchange stations (Park, Rocks) as a means of dispersing crowds. Of course, there are no spare platforms at Town Hall and Circular Quay so it's a different situation.
The point is, you're more likely to have a rail line and say, let's build a station than have a spare platform and say, let's build a rail line.

If you ever take the lift down to the bondi line platform at Central it's pretty hard to miss the platform - they usually have the lights on and you can see it through the small glass windows in the lift doors.

I was thinking the same thing about using 26/27 for a new line, however was told it's apparently not possible. Something to do with the configuration of the tunnels beneath it...

Yeah. It was built in the 1930s and was only for a single story rolling stock. I doubt it double deckers can fit through it.

The point is, you're more likely to have a rail line and say, let's build a station than have a spare platform and say, let's build a rail line.

Platform 5 and 6 was built in the 1930s when town hall was built but was only used since the 1970s-80s when Eastern Suburban line was constructed.

There are also platform 15/16 in Redfern and 2 spare platforms at St James.

I don't like the sound of building another tunnel underneath Cahill Freeway. I mean, that structure is unstable as it is and there are maintainance work happening at the moment fixing up the pylons.

It just seems to be a waste of good tunnels...

Yeah. It was built in the 1930s and was only for a single story rolling stock. I doubt it double deckers can fit through it.

What's "it"? No gauge work was done in the suburban area to permit the running of double-deck trains - they fit entirely in the loading gauge used for single deck trains. Platforms 26/27 at Central were constructed in the 1950s together with 24/25. They will look the same if put in to use.

MrPC has said there are some structural problems with the upper deck though...

There are also platform 15/16 in Redfern and 2 spare platforms at St James.

I don't think work progressed very far on the 5th and 6th underground platforms at Redfern.

I don't like the sound of building another tunnel underneath Cahill Freeway. I mean, that structure is unstable as it is and there are maintainance work happening at the moment fixing up the pylons.

A tunnel transverse across the Cahill Expressway viaduct is really not going to be an issue. Nothing is confirmed about the state of the viaduct at the moment in any case - it may be that only the "pretty" concrete face of the supports is falling off due to the mortar cracking from vibrations of hundreds of thousands of vehicles and trains over the past 50 years.

What i read about the platform 26/27 was supposed to be the line that goes all the way to airport. I wonder if this can be used for lightrail!!
I thought they were now going to use them for the new north west/south west line.

What's "it"? No gauge work was done in the suburban area to permit the running of double-deck trains - they fit entirely in the loading gauge used for single deck trains. Platforms 26/27 at Central were constructed in the 1950s together with 24/25. They will look the same if put in to use.

MrPC has said there are some structural problems with the upper deck though...

I thought Matix's argument didn't sound right. Most of Underground Network was built in the 1920s and 30s, almost half a decade before double deckers were used. The networks was built to cater for on Bradfield's (Broad) Loading Gauge. All rolling stock built since the 20s complies with Bradfield's loading gauge - single or double decker.

I have also heard the the upper u/g platforms at Central have structural problems and for some reason (probably costcutting) can't the support the weigh of trains.

I'm sure many of you will be really "pleased" to know that work on the Bondi Junction Turnback is again delayed. The commissioning date is currently pushed back from the last weekend in February to the 3rd weekend in April. Obviously it could slip further.

This will necessitate a delay in the new Sector 1: Eastern Suburbs, Illawarra, South Coast line timetable to that date.

I'm not a huge fan of ticket inspectors; especially after a certain event that involved a fine. :angel:

It took me 2.5 hours to get home last night thanks to a signal problems at Penshurst and the virtual suspension of services during the evening peak on the Illawarra for around half an hour. I was able to secure myself on a train by going to Kings Cross. Some others did that too.

Also last night, there was confusion over services. Services were terminating at Central, the indicator boards had the wrong stations (my train - all stations to Hurstville became express to Cronulla then become express to Hurstville). At Hurstville the train only terminated only to be announced it was continuing.

you got an apology though --

Posted 07/02/06 06:12pm
Eastern Suburbs, Illawarra & South Coast Line Customers
CityRail apologises to customers who were delayed yesterday afternoon due to signalling problems at Penshurst.

Due to the problem, restoring services was difficult, as was the availability of buses to put in place alternative transport arrangements.

The patience and cooperation of customers affected by this problem is appreciated.

I'm not a huge fan of ticket inspectors; especially after a certain event that involved a fine. :angel:

Hahaha. I'm not a big fan of transit officers either, after a recent event involving a bottle of beer and 450 bucks. :cheers:

DAMN CITY RAIL.

Im gonna have a whinge at them for being on time! As a result, i have missed quite a few trains as of late :D

Yeah I was stuck at Martin Place last night, I got there at 5pm and didnt get on a train until 5.45 or so. One train was cancelled, then given rush hour, the train that came next was packed that not many at Martin place could get on, this went on for the next train too. I have never seen Sydney trains that busy, and as for the safety issue on the platforms, MP was packed, people were getting angry and turning on each other, needless to say for the poor signal woman on the platform got such an earful.
Cityrail or Shittyrail really is a joke, Sydney is not and cannot be considered a world class city with such poor PT. It outrages me that much that I am even considering leaving this city and I think Sydney has had it's day and the charm being lost. I honestly believe that Melbourne is going to surpass Sydney in so many aspects that Sydney will soon be the second city of Australia. So sad :o(

exactly - sydney is not a world class city with a third world public transport system- but i guess with a government who refuses to invest substantially in the system things will not change

Public transport in Melbourne is pretty much the same as Sydney, that’s if you live in the outer suburbs. Trains are useless and are pretty much at full capacity in Melbourne. Trams are good if you live in the inner city and like a slow journey.

if u want a good transport system go to perth

Is anyone else catching trains that, due to all the fat now in the timetable, seem to sit at stations for excessively long periods? Today on my trip from St Leonards to Central my train sat at North Sydney for about 2 minutes after everyone had got off/on, at Wynyard for another two minutes and then at Town Hall for at least a minute too long; looking at the timetable, it still managed to arrive at Central 2 minutes before its scheduled departure! It's not not a one off, either - most nights the train dwells far too long at the major stops (North Sydney and Wynyard especially).

It's now reached the point where I hope I get to the station in time to catch a late running service so that my train trip is 5 minutes faster! I know five minutes isn't much (although it's a large percentage of the 23 minute trip), but it's so frustrating sitting in a train not going anywhere just because the timetable is a piece of crap.

Oh yeah, and those damned un-air conditioned 6 carriage trains are still pissing me off. Couldn't they at least make the services following big timetable gaps 8 carriages?

Ive just had a good read of all your stories.

Its a shame!

Costa and Bod Carr should be taken to court for causing this debarcle on our train system.

Fancy waiting for 30 mins for a train??? We have the trains and the staff to run the system like a metro.Why dont we do it??

Shame on you Costa and Carr for your wonderful contribution to our state over the past 10 years.

Is anyone else catching trains that, due to all the fat now in the timetable, seem to sit at stations for excessively long periods? Today on my trip from St Leonards to Central my train sat at North Sydney for about 2 minutes after everyone had got off/on, at Wynyard for another two minutes and then at Town Hall for at least a minute too long; looking at the timetable, it still managed to arrive at Central 2 minutes before its scheduled departure! It's not not a one off, either - most nights the train dwells far too long at the major stops (North Sydney and Wynyard especially).

It's now reached the point where I hope I get to the station in time to catch a late running service so that my train trip is 5 minutes faster! I know five minutes isn't much (although it's a large percentage of the 23 minute trip), but it's so frustrating sitting in a train not going anywhere just because the timetable is a piece of crap.

Oh yeah, and those damned un-air conditioned 6 carriage trains are still pissing me off. Couldn't they at least make the services following big timetable gaps 8 carriages?

That happens sometimes when I take trains on the Western Suburbs line mostly at Redfern. It's usually beacause the train is running ahead of schedule. Some trains I take can arrive at Strathfield up to two minutes early.

The reason why trains stay at stations longer is that the timetable allows for longer stopping times and thats one factor that trips take longer than before.

On the good side, more trains are on time. Even the Illawarra line with its old timetable is getting its affairs in order too. That means less whinging :)

What was wrong with Illawarra line services this afternoon.

My train, the 1628 from Central was on time, but there was a large crowd waiting for it, which there normally wasn't. Then I overheard from a schoolgirl on the bus that there were problems with trains at Kogarah this afternoon with them running late.

Also the 1633 to Waterfall appeared to be 10 mins late according to indicator boards.

There was an 'operational' problem at Sydenham.

I crammed myself into the late running 4:15ish 4 car Port Kembla service and walked from Hurstville to home, rather than wait 30min for the next train stopping at my station according to the indicator boards. Worked out much quicker too.

My train was delayed this morning at Hurstville just so they could let a freight train through. Bad Bad idea :bash:

I'm complaining not relating timetables, I was going back from the Easter Show, they had these barriers in Olympics Park station that supposedly prevented people from falling down the tracks. They have something like that in Singapore, London, etc. Problem with that in Sydney is that it's a half-job: it's set about 1 meter from the edge of the platform, causing people to be crowded, and it doesn't exactly work either, the Cityrail blokes had to manually open it. So it's a waste of space.

I don't think it's a waste of space. If they can configure it for Town Hall, Wynyard, Circular Quey stations with automatic opening doors, it should be great. Plus, people know where the doors will be before train arrives, which means less boarding time. Plus, the train can rapidly come to a stop at the end of platform, instead of going slowly for fears of people coming too close to train.

well the way it's set up it is a waste. like I said it's a half-job, and it requires trains being very accurate to where it stops. But you are right, it won't be a waste of space one Cityrail finds out how it actually works, could work well in those underground stations

Operational problems affected the Illawarra line this afternoon. The 1pm train from Central to Cronulla didn't even make it past Mortdale, deciding to go back to the shed instead. I was going to Miranda, and I ended up going back to Hurstville.

They gave us no notice until the train came to Mortdale that it was terminating.

I don't think it's a waste of space. If they can configure it for Town Hall, Wynyard, Circular Quey stations with automatic opening doors, it should be great. Plus, people know where the doors will be before train arrives, which means less boarding time. Plus, the train can rapidly come to a stop at the end of platform, instead of going slowly for fears of people coming too close to train.

It wouldn't work. Some V-Sets use the City Circle time and time again during trackwork, and the doors on the V-Sets are in a different location on each carriage relative to other sets on the network. The whole fleet has got to have doors on each carriage that line up in the same place for platform screen doors to work properly. Plus I notice that on some platforms there is a step up onto the train. The platform has to be level with the floor level of the train for it to work.

^
Plus, 6 and 4 car sets would have to actually start stopping at the marked location.

It wouldn't work. Some V-Sets use the City Circle time and time again during trackwork, and the doors on the V-Sets are in a different location on each carriage relative to other sets on the network. The whole fleet has got to have doors on each carriage that line up in the same place for platform screen doors to work properly. Plus I notice that on some platforms there is a step up onto the train. The platform has to be level with the floor level of the train for it to work.

And the V Set Carriages are longer than standard carriages. Most suburban stations can accomodate 6 1/2 carriages of an 8 car V Set. I see this at Hurstville.

On 28 May, a new timetable for Illawarra line will be introduced.　This follows the completion of the turnback at Bondi Junction. Does anyone know the changes in the new timetable? More or less trains?

Same frequency as before but there will be six extra services in the morning peak. Longer travel times too.

Timetables should be in the stations by now.

Same frequency as before but there will be six extra services in the morning peak. Longer travel times too.So basically the same frequency due to more hold ups? Is this due to services being "red-lit" more often on the same line? Trying to get my head around this one.

they just slow em down. In effect they arrive early all the time. The idea is that they can make up time without speeding. In practice it doesn't work at all::

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/ferry-cancellations-now-just-part-of-the-routine/2006/05/11/1146940682401.html

Running rough in late peak

AFTERNOON peak-hour trains have not met CityRail's on-time target since early March and last week slumped to one of their worst performances since the new timetable began.


After cutting services, slowing travel times and extending the definition of "on-time running" to improve efficiency, morning trains are regularly meeting the punctuality target.

But afternoon peak trains are consistently falling short.

The timetable aimed to have 92 per cent of trains arrive within five minutes of the scheduled time.

But between May 1 and May 5, only 81.1 per cent of afternoon peak trains met that target - the lowest proportion since December, the CityRail website said.

In April, average figures ranged between 82.9 and 88.4 per cent. The last time the 92 per cent benchmark was reached was the first week of March.

Last week, 90.6 per cent of morning trains ran on time on the Western line and 70.9 per cent in the afternoon.

On the Northern line, 90.7 per cent met the morning target but only 63.3 per cent met it in the afternoon.

The Opposition transport spokesman, Barry O'Farrell, said the Government had failed commuters.

"Commuters were promised better on-time running in exchange for slower trains and seven months on they have been dudded again," he said.

A spokeswoman for CityRail said reliability for peak services across the network had improved from 70.6 per cent to 91.3 per cent.

The west/north sector was averaging 92 per cent punctuality for combined peak hours, she said.

What will fix it is sectorised shifts, a thorough performance review of train controllers and signallers and improved maintenance that actually stops signals, points and trains breaking down. The timetable is just the scapegoat.

they just slow em down. In effect they arrive early all the time. The idea is that they can make up time without speeding. In practice it doesn't work at allOK, I understand that, so thanks. But how do they fit 6 extra in @ the same frequency as Fabian mentions? That is kind of a contadiction to me, but I'm more than likely missing something here.

:embaressed:

They fit in the additional trains in the AM rush hour only, by increasing the amount of trains running through to Bondi from a train every 5min to a train every 4min, as well as the changing of the 8:02am train from hurstville to the City Circle to the 7:59am Hurstville to Bondi Junction service.

The additional trains are squeezed through the bottleneck of Sutherland - Hurstville, by the peak cronulla trains running sutherland, jannali, hurstville, and these new trains running Waterfall, Sutherland, Jannali, Mortdale, Penshurst, Hurstville.

OK, I understand that, so thanks. But how do they fit 6 extra in @ the same frequency as Fabian mentions? That is kind of a contadiction to me, but I'm more than likely missing something here.

:embaressed:

That was a general comment on service frequencies mentioning the extra few services in the morning peak.

They can fit those extra services due to the new turnback at Bondi Junction. It means trains will be arriving at city stations and bondi junction every four minutes at the height of the morning peak.

Another change has been that Wolli Creek will receive South Coast line services during the off peak period and Kogarah will get an extra service each hour during the evening peak as some Port Kembla services will stop at the station (Same with Rockdale but they only replace the two Cronulla services that they will lose).

Thanks guys. :)

I noticed today that the concourse @ Town Hall is laying on the PR for the incoming timetable changes albeit somewhat vague in parts eg. "could possibly affect" or something along those lines.

That was a general comment on service frequencies mentioning the extra few services in the morning peak.

They can fit those extra services due to the new turnback at Bondi Junction. It means trains will be arriving at city stations and bondi junction every four minutes at the height of the morning peak.

Another change has been that Wolli Creek will receive South Coast line services during the off peak period and Kogarah will get an extra service each hour during the evening peak as some Port Kembla services will stop at the station (Same with Rockdale but they only replace the two Cronulla services that they will lose).

I've always felt Wolli Ck should receive intercity service. After all, it's an access point to the Airport line...

I have the new timetable booklet and I have to question the extra travel time. Do they really need that extra time, apart from a minute or so to allow for extra boarding time.

A train from Hurstville to Central will take an extra four minutes, with the extra travel time mostly occuring between Kogarah and Hurstville. It takes three minutes at present, but it will take six minutes from Sunday.

Also it will take four minutes for a train to travel between Town Hall and Central.

Those on the north shore line particularly between North Sydney and Lindfield will have their off peak service frequency increase back to six services per hour due to the extension of services up the line due to the upgrade at North Sydney.

Do they really need that extra time, apart from a minute or so to allow for extra boarding time.

Nope.

But the new slow timetable is designed to compensate for:
* Drivers who won't drive within 10% of the speed limit for fear of being dismissed summarily for speeding
* Guards who won't shut doors on people and can't manage to press the bell to give the driver ROW within a reasonable time of the door closing
* Signallers that go to get coffee or something and can't manage to set the road on time for incoming trains
* Passengers who hold doors open or otherwise abuse the tolerance of above-mentioned guards

What no timetable can compensate for is the number of track, signal, overhead and rolling stock failures that continue to happen at an absurd frequency and constitute the real cause, along with vandalism and suicide/other strike incidents, of delays on the rail network.

The Illawarra line timetable has been subject to some critism.

Many have complained about the extra stoppage times including trains arriving up to four minutes early at some stations ie Hurstville, and I'm still questioning the need for the extra time. I would agree as the extended times are unecessary particularly as trains on the line still operate on or close to the same speed as before. I havent noticed a slowdown in the speed of trains on the line.

The Leader also reported yesterday about excessive waits for Cronulla services at Sutherland Station. Students have to wait up to thirty minutes for trains at Sutherland in the afternoon heading to Cronulla, as one service has been ditched between 3pm and 4pm and passengers facing simliar waits when changing from Waterfall - City services to Cronulla services at Sutherland as arriving trains at Sutherland arrive just after they depart.

I think the timetable for the line needs to be shred to bits and rewritten.

Oh yer thats what the city needs another huge delay and restructure for a few years for new time table.

To my understanding there will be an all sectors, full timetable rewrite coinciding with the opening of the Epping-Chatswood railway.

Things to look out for include more quasi-Campbelltown Express services and removal of all Liverpool via Regents Park services (only Liverpool via Granville and Liverpool via Bankstown) remaining. Also a more regimented stopping pattern where possible (all towards implementing a clockface timetable, this is a several stage process because people would whinge too much if change happened too fast)

This is not a cityrail whinge, more a question. I have noticed the s-sets that come through Circular Quay have these protusions on either side of the doors. Are these some sort of announcement or indicator things?

Just curious!

js

the boxes have lights on each side of them:
* when the doors are open, the lights are on
* when the doors are closing, the lights are flashing
* when the doors are closed, the lights are off

The lights are related to the computerised "stand clear, doors closing" message and the traction interlock. When the whole system is active, the train can only move when all the doors are fully closed. The lights tell the guard which doors aren't closed so he can go and see what the problem is (or blast over the PA system whoever is holding them open...)

the boxes have lights on each side of them:
* when the doors are open, the lights are on
* when the doors are closing, the lights are flashing
* when the doors are closed, the lights are off

The lights are related to the computerised "stand clear, doors closing" message and the traction interlock. When the whole system is active, the train can only move when all the doors are fully closed. The lights tell the guard which doors aren't closed so he can go and see what the problem is (or blast over the PA system whoever is holding them open...)

Are they ever activated? I rarely get the train, only ever up to DJ's at
St James from CQ and I haven't seen them working!

Does anyone remember when the C-sets had those LED lights above the doors and the chimes that went on when they were opening. Presumably to let people know the doors were working. The C's originally had push buttons on the doors to release them.

Same with the Tangara's. They had a lever handle to release the doors at stations originally.

Do the OSCARS have something similar? I think I remember articles about people being so stupid that they could not work out to open the doors with the release levers / buttons.

G-sets have a button release on their doors - do they still operate? It's been such a long time that I have been on one!

Cheers,

js

All S sets in sector 1 (Illawarra + Eastern Suburbs) are active and a few Tangaras. I understand this sector was used as a test for the system's reintroduction (since it was pulled from service nearly a year ago).

The C set and T set door handle business was designed to preserve the air conditioning in the cars. But passengers clearly couldn't handle it and so standard practice became to open all the doors. I doubt many ETR (surburban) guards could even manage to operate the doors in button mode today.

The outer suburban G sets have the same system with more prominent buttons. Guards can selectively release doors. It's only used at short platform stations, which in practice, based on where G sets currently run, is almost never.

The system for H sets (Oscars) would be the same.

All I can remember from Sydney trains that they were crummy. The crappy trains in Brissy are better than alot of Sydney trains. And for me understanding the train system was confusing as all lines in Brissy go into the city.

And for me understanding the train system was confusing as all lines in Brissy go into the city.

All lines in Sydney go to the city too. Not that that's a good thing...

Sydney's lines go all over the place though, where as in Brisbane its Suburb->city.
Most Sydney stations are served by two lines - if you live in Campellfield you have the option of going via East Hills or Parramatta to get to the city.

Sydney's lines go all over the place though, where as in Brisbane its Suburb->city.

I don't see how that's different to Sydney: suburb --> City --> suburb. Turn around and repeat.

Most Sydney stations are served by two lines - if you live in Campellfield you have the option of going via East Hills or Parramatta to get to the city.

Most is an exaggeration but in the scenario you listed you actually underquoted: If you live in Campbelltown you could get to the city:
1) via East Hills
2) via Granville
3) via Bankstown
4) via Regents Park

in practice however only via East Hills and Granville will be available. Confusing? potentially. Under rail clearways this gets reduced to via East Hills only. This won't happen until at the very least 2009 though.

A new timetable should be out in 2008 to take advantage of Stage 1 Clearways projects.

hmm but does CityRail intend to run Campbelltown Express from 2008?

In 2008 Macdonaldtown Turnback sidings stage 2 and Revesby turnback will be completed but not sextuplication from Illawarra Junction to Sydenham nor quadruplication from Kingsgrove to Revesby.

Hi All,

I found this website when I was doing research regarding NSW infrastructure and Transport. Looks great and very interesting.

I do not have a problem with cityrail itself, just the people who run it, management, Labor and the like. I believe the problem with the Sydney network is that it was based on early British railway and has since been added to as it is needed, not for future growth. Now we have situations like the North-West rail link that will not be completed until the end of the next decade as land has not been put aside, environment studies have not been complete, etc. Now, the Rouse Hill area is one of the largest growth areas in the state. Adding this link sooner will cut down on road traffic on the M2, Gore Hill and harbour crossings.

Another gripe I have is our old crummy trains and our new crummy trains. No one will ever forget the Millennium Train. I cannot count the number of different trains we have and how many versions of each. What Sydney needs, is a new train with standardised parts but available in single and double deck variants. Double deck for our busiest lines and single deck for other lines such as the carlingford line. The single deck trains could also be used for lines like city circle to increase running time. Single deck trains could also be used on busier lines but in off peak times. Single deck trains are a lot quicker to clean and one could only assume that they would not drain our power grid as much. Please do not let me start on our need for new power infrastructure.

Another idea I have been thinking about is the need for zoning. London has it, Paris has it. Please do not get me wrong, I am not saying we should have a system like theirs that is not designed for the greatest city in the world :) . I believe, that with the clearways project, they should incorporate express lines. We could have zone such as Outer West 1 - Central to Strathfeild, Outer West 2 - Strathfield to Parramatta, Outer West 3 - Parramatta to Blacktown and Outer West 4 - Blacktown to Penrith. These services could be express (Only stopping at Strathfield, Parramatta and Blacktown) up until their zone, and then become all station trains. I also do not think our current set up is good enough (obviously) by getting on a train at Penrith and be able to get off at Berowra. Central should become a central hub for all lines. Whereby trains come in from a certain line, and then return on that same line. It works at Waterloo in London. If you are coming from the west or south of Sydney, and want to go to the north, one change will not hurt anyone especially if the travelling time is more efficient.

This is getting very long, so I will cut it short here. I tried to keep each point small. I could go on about our need for developers for certain stations- e.g. Forum West at St Leonard’s, a new fund worth around $1 billion for transport infrastructure overseen by a new government department and use it on projects based on their merits. This money could be raised from a small levy on all tolls, new sub divisions tickets, stamp duty and from the State and Federal Governments. There is more I could say on each point and a lot more.

Alright, I will stop now.

Please let me know your opinions on my comments. Please do not hold back.

Hi RSG, I'm not sure if Central cound be easily configured for termination on all lines, unless all services from the south and west were redirected into the Sydney Terminal platforms. The other problem is most people don't want to go to Central, but continue onwards to the City Circle stations. They might not like to have to change at Central every day if they are commuting to the CBD. Central would have to undergo major renovations to deal with the crush as well.
Other than that your ideas are reasonable, especially the reintroduction of single-deckers, which have the added benefit of shorter stopping times, which means higher frequency.

No one will ever forget the Millennium Train.

What about it? They work fine now. Problems with their introduction was a political failing more than anything. The Outer Suburban H sets now under test won't be unleashed en masse without significantly more thorough testing.


I cannot count the number of different trains we have and how many versions of each.

This of course is not unusual anywhere in the world. Just elsewhere trains are normally confined to particular lines. Here because there are three (well 3.5) maintenance centres and poorly delineated lines you get a mixture but -

You'll only find C and M sets in Sector 2 (south-west)
You'll only find K sets in Sector 3 (west/north)

The rest consists of S and T sets which, because of their numbers you'll find everywhere.

What Sydney needs, is a new train with standardised parts but available in single and double deck variants.

Practically this doesn't work. The parts for a double deck train will be almost entirely different to a single deck train. You might find commonality in the pantograph, the windows, doors, seats and floor. The major components - bogies, traction equipment, frame etc will be different.

Double deck for our busiest lines and single deck for other lines such as the carlingford line.

Carlingford needs 1 four car train. Where else would you run said single deck trains?

The single deck trains could also be used for lines like city circle to increase running time.

Decrease running time. You'd have to re-signal the city circle and convert all of Sector 2 (East Hills, Bankstown, Inner West, South, Old South) to single deck. Or give one direction over to single deck running and one to double deck running and convert shorter lines to single deck. You need to keep single and double deck stock separate. That would be problematic primarily on the Bankstown line.

Single deck trains could also be used on busier lines but in off peak times.

You want to keep rolling stock separated not mingle them together.

Single deck trains are a lot quicker to clean and one could only assume that they would not drain our power grid as much.

I don't follow how they're easier to clean?

They are proportionately lighter to double deck cars though, yes. Although if they accelerate proportionately better they'll likely put the same maximum draw on the power grid.

Please do not let me start on our need for new power infrastructure.

The railways use their own power network. In a complete local blackout stations will still have power because their power is delivered via cables along the railway reservation. This is separate again to the overhead traction power system.

Yes there were problems created by the Millenium train's introduction. And they're all in the process of being rectified because all future trains will likely have equal or greater power draw.

Another idea I have been thinking about is the need for zoning.

Ticketing is a big big mess. That's all that needs to be said on the subject[!]

I also do not think our current set up is good enough (obviously) by getting on a train at Penrith and be able to get off at Berowra. Central should become a central hub for all lines. Whereby trains come in from a certain line, and then return on that same line.

For the most part they do, but the City is the middle of the line not the end. That's a consequence of the City being a hub for all lines and that having a train turn around is incredibly inefficient even with relay drivers.

If you are coming from the west or south of Sydney, and want to go to the north, one change will not hurt anyone especially if the travelling time is more efficient.

You can't get from the south of Sydney to the north of Sydney without changing. Though you could 50 years ago when trains, for example, typically went Cronulla - St James - Town Hall - Strathfield - Hornsby (reverse). The current system is much more sectorised than even 25 years ago when many services from all lines went into the City Circle and some would "randomly" go to the North Shore.

I could go on about our need for developers for certain stations- e.g. Forum West at St Leonard’s, a new fund worth around $1 billion for transport infrastructure overseen by a new government department and use it on projects based on their merits.

The suitability of such sites are limited. RailCorp is currently concerned about the consequences of a train derailing under these developments...

This money could be raised from a small levy on all tolls, new sub divisions tickets, stamp duty and from the State and Federal Governments.

Yay new stamp duties. Better keep it hidden from Alan Jones though...

Thanks for the feedback guys. I like to hear different opinions, this is the only way that right decisions can be found.

In regards to hornetfig's comments:

The Millennium Train was not only a political failing, EDI is every bit to blame as the state labour government. They may be working fine now, but it was a disaster when they were introduced. Hundreds of thousands $$ in working hours were lost due to them being implemented. Why were there only 82 or so ordered when there are around 300 or so non airconditioned L R and S set still on track. The new H set (oscar) trains being built by United Goninan look great. The Goninan side of the partnership were the builders of most of the other trains on our network. I do not understand why they weren't consulted to begin with. When on a willing formula...

I understand that our variety of trains is no different to other cities, but I hope that if the H set are up tp scratch, which I am sure they are, they increase the original order. I believe it is 60 or so. I could be wrong. The order should be enough to replace the L R S sets over the next 5 years max.

As for single deck trains, I believe that they could decrease train waiting times. I did not know what lines are mingled in with city central. The main problem is clearways and lack of them which I beleive is underway. Do you know where I can find a what each stage entails?

I do not know a lot regarding their power supply. If they use their own, what form do they use? I cannot see them owning their own gas or coal fire power plant.

I agree with the ticketing comment, but there is a lot more to be said.

Trains could derail anywhere. Buildings can be designed to withstand an all mighty force if it is a requirement of the site.

No new stamp duties, actually take a small percentage that is already paid and put into the infrastructure of the surrounding area.

Thanks once again. But one last question.... You did not agree with anything I mentioned??

:)

I have never really been one to criticise Cityrail and all the recent problems that we have seen.

One thing all of you have to remeber is that we are incredibly lucky to actually have a fully functioning rail network in a car based city.

Despite what many think, you can still get to anywhere in
Sydney and surround by train and bus, most of the time. It might not be glamourous, it might not be that comfortable, but you can get there and cheaply.

So why don't we celebrate our excellent rail network, our great trains and the fact we actually have them.

We could always be like LA!

Chookas!

js

The Millennium Train was not only a political failing, EDI is every bit to blame as the state labour government. They may be working fine now, but it was a disaster when they were introduced. Hundreds of thousands $$ in working hours were lost due to them being implemented.

Fortunately you or I as ordinary taxpayers don't need to get involved in the losses a private contractor may make due to their poor engineering or workmanship. That's the whole point of PPP.

Why were there only 82 or so ordered when there are around 300 or so non airconditioned L R and S set still on track.

No M set car replaced a Comeng/Goninan S set car. The first tranche replaced the Tulloch cars which would have otherwise been replaced by the last tranche of T set cars before the Greiner government decided they'd be better as intercity cars (replacing U sets) and had them modified into "Outer Suburban" G sets.

The second tranche really only removed a number of six car trains from the network and built them up to 8 car trains. A number of older Comeng S set motor cars were converted to trailer cars for this.

The third tranche which was not proceeded with were the additional cars needed to run the Parramatta-Chatswood railway. But seeing as that's not proceeding, at least from Epping-Parramatta it was uncessary (and politically expedient) to not buy this tranche. The (fewer) cars required for Epping-Chatswood will come from the current H set procurement which will release T sets from interurban work.

The new H set (oscar) trains being built by United Goninan look great. The Goninan side of the partnership were the builders of most of the other trains on our network. I do not understand why they weren't consulted to begin with. When on a willing formula...

Well the tender specification for the M set would have precluded the use of much of the T set design in the new trains. The H set tender specification is a little easier as a result of the fallout from the M set business.

Both United Goninan and EDI Rail tendered for the M set contract. EDI was chosen because, obviously, it was perceived as better. The Tangara had introductory problems of at least the magnitude, if not greater than that which the M set ended up having. It has abysimal ride quality, its interior design makes it the biggest grafitti magnet on the network. I don't really see what about particularly the T set should have made Goninan shoe-ins for the M set contract.

I understand that our variety of trains is no different to other cities, but I hope that if the H set are up tp scratch, which I am sure they are, they increase the original order. I believe it is 60 or so.

The second tranche option for the H set order has already been exercised. They will be used to remove V sets from the Illawarra line, replace the withdrawn 15 cars and then either replace some older V set cars or displace G sets to suburban running.

The order should be enough to replace the L R S sets over the next 5 years max.

The H set is an Outer Suburban train, but I'm sure Goninan's tender for the S set replacement program is a relatively minor alteration upon that design. EDI no doubt tendered an M set variant. Given the number of cars in this replacement program is now over 500 (have to replace S set cars 1-1, 3 car L sets become 4 cars and 6 car R sets become 8 cars), they could both end up with the contract...
As for single deck trains, I believe that they could decrease train waiting times. I did not know what lines are mingled in with city central. The main problem is clearways and lack of them which I beleive is underway. Do you know where I can find a what each stage entails?

I do not know a lot regarding their power supply. If they use their own, what form do they use? I cannot see them owning their own gas or coal fire power plant.

I agree with the ticketing comment, but there is a lot more to be said.

Trains could derail anywhere. Buildings can be designed to withstand an all mighty force if it is a requirement of the site.

No new stamp duties, actually take a small percentage that is already paid and put into the infrastructure of the surrounding area.

Thanks once again. But one last question.... You did not agree with anything I mentioned??[/QUOTE]

Apparently they wobble a bit too much for RailCorp's liking over 80km/h?

http://dailytelegraph.news.com.au/story/0,20281,19736255-5001022,00.html

New trains way off

By Heath Aston, Transport Reporter
July 10, 2006

EVEN by RailCorp's rubbery standards the state's latest train project - the $440 million outer-suburban car (OSCAR) - is seriously late.


First promised by Carl Scully to be "on the coast by 2005", OSCAR is beset by testing problems and is unlikely to be in public service next year, The Daily Telegraph can reveal.

The bungled introduction has left egg on the face of Transport Minister John Watkins at a time the Government is desperate to resurrect its rail credentials ahead of election 2007.

Mr Watkins told this newspaper last September: "Passengers can look forward to a safer, more comfortable trip on these carriages in the first six months of 2006."

Passengers are still making do with metropolitan Tangara carriages lacking the much-needed toilet facilities of the longer journey OSCARs.

Sources close to the track tests say the OSCARs, which will service Gosford, Wollongong, Campbelltown and the Blue Mountains, have a long list of glitches similar to the problem-hit Millennium Train.

Engineers from maker United Goninan are battling to rectify safety issues with door control at stations.

There are also problems with the interface between traction control and braking on the first 81 of 122 carriages on order.

"The systems pushing the train and stopping it aren't interacting properly," one source said.

The Iemma Government must now decide whether to introduce the train before the March election and risk a repeat of the Millennium debacle.

More than 60 defects and problems were reported in the first six months the Downer EDI-made Millenniums were on the tracks in 2002.

OSCAR was out on the tracks again yesterday for driver training, passing Redfern station on the way to Eveleigh rail yards more than half an hour later than scheduled.

Mr Watkins acknowledged testing problems had delayed the train again but refused to give a date for its introduction.

"We won't rush the first OSCARS into service until they're ready," his spokeswoman said.

What is happening to all the sexy V-sets? So they are updating the Illawarra line first? Then what the CC/Newcastle line and finally the Blue Mountains? Anyone know?

I think the V-sets are the best on the network I guess they will eventually retire them.

Hornetfig,

You seem to be very knowledgeable, may I ask if you work in the public transport sector or are you just a keen observer?

I don't see how that's different to Sydney: suburb --> City --> suburb. Turn around and repeat.

But generally most (but not all) sydney lines terminate at Central and turnback, whereas nearly all lines in South East Queensland (except Nambour/Gympie which terminates at Roma Street) is Suburb > City > another suburb and turn back.

Out of all the lines which go into the city only 3 out of 10 terminate at Central.

Apparently some incident with some train broken down around Wynyard this evening. Lot of delays I noticed, and a lot of taxi drivers in business.

You seem to be very knowledgeable, may I ask if you work in the public transport sector or are you just a keen observer?

No I don't work in the area, so pick faults in whatever I say all you want ;)

What is happening to all the sexy V-sets? So they are updating the Illawarra line first? Then what the CC/Newcastle line and finally the Blue Mountains? Anyone know?

The V set design was in use for a very long time. Right up until 1989. Most cars were built after 1980 however when electrification was extended first to Newcastle and later to Wollongong.

Now variously there has been talk removing South Coast line services from Sydney Terminal and running them all to Martin Place or Bondi Junction. I don't know if this is the current intention but it does appear that V sets will be withdrawn from the line.

The original 16 V set cars, which ran along for a long time before the others have now been withdrawn. They won't be coming back because their mild steel frames have failed the test of time. The rest of the fleet apparently have stainless frames. There are no plans to withdraw any further V sets.

H sets will displace T sets from intercity running and then permit V sets to be overhauled progressively. At the moment they're only getting the same cursory treatment as the suburban fleet - new livery, internal paint job, various floor repairs. Their toilets are also to be renewed.

Because V sets are the only narrow width electric passenger rolling stock and because only narrow sets can be used beyond Springwood they'll likely run on the Blue Mountains line longer than the Newcastle line where all double deck trains can run (but a train with plug doors open due to door motor failure is out of guage after Wyong or something)

Hey all, I'm new here. I saw this thread while searching for something in Google and felt I should contribute/ask in this topic.

I saw two 8-carriage M-sets on the Eastern Suburbs/Illawarra line a few days ago, one set at Hurstville Station and one at Wolli Creek (actually on the platform that is close to Tempe and the XPT Service Centre) could they be making a return to the line?

Apparently some incident with some train broken down around Wynyard this evening. Lot of delays I noticed, and a lot of taxi drivers in business.

The Cityrail site says there was an incident at Kotara, maybe that's what you meant?

No, the Wynyard incident occurred about 3-4 hours before your post. I was on my way south from Town Hall when I heard the mumblings amongst taxi drivers in the area.

Ah

I saw two 8-carriage M-sets on the Eastern Suburbs/Illawarra line a few days ago, one set at Hurstville Station and one at Wolli Creek (actually on the platform that is close to Tempe and the XPT Service Centre) could they be making a return to the line?

If it was a weekend then due to trackwork trains can end up anywhere.

There are driver and guard depots at Mortdale, Cronulla and Waterfall on the Illawarra line. These crew are not trained for the M set. When there were two M sets running on the line in 2004, for one of the trains commencing from Waterfall yard the driver was sent by taxi from Campbelltown and the guard worked another train in, he beginning at Blacktown! Crewing is now substantially more sectorised under the new timetable, running the trains on the Illawarra line isn't really feasible and was only done previously to score political brownie points (until they broke down...)

That said there was (is?) one set that for whatever reason traversed the City Circle and proceeded to Hurstville. Maybe you saw that. Though I'd have expected it would now use the Macdonaldtown turnback.

That said there was (is?) one set that for whatever reason traversed the City Circle and proceeded to Hurstville. Maybe you saw that. Though I'd have expected it would now use the Macdonaldtown turnback.

Probably, it was there in the morning and was departing Hurstville after I returned from the city that afternoon (sunday methinks)

Having had to travel all over Sydney yesterday and Wednesday, CityRail needs to get its act together in terms of signage, announcements and general info for their customers.

Every train stop should be announced onboard the train
The arrival of every train should be announced on the train platforms
More station name signs should be erected at every station
The old trains need to go, they look like they belong in New York not Sydney

PS: Town Hall and Wynyard need to be redeveloped or at least beautified with a new paint job and consistant color scheme. At the moment, they are all over the shop!

Having had to travel all over Sydney yesterday and Wednesday, CityRail needs to get its act together in terms of signage, announcements and general info for their customers.

Every train stop should be announced onboard the train
The arrival of every train should be announced on the train platforms
More station name signs should be erected at every station
The old trains need to go, they look like they belong in New York not Sydney

PS: Town Hall and Wynyard need to be redeveloped or at least beautified with a new paint job and consistant color scheme. At the moment, they are all over the shop!


I agree especially if trains are delayed. Station staff wont explain why services are running late.

Also a month ago at Punchbowl, my train to Sydenham was cancelled and no announcement was made at all as to the cancellation of the service. I only knew when the station attendant adjusted the clock on the indicator board for the next service when the cancelled train was due to arrive.

As for announcements on trains, they do regular announcements on board trains for Illawarra line services, however I find that they ignore this on the other lines.

Station Staff don't know why trains are late. They can try ringing other stations to find out (manned stations with TLS systems at least can see where the hold up is and ring the right station!) but it really comes back to Train Controllers not telling Station Masters not telling Customer Service Attendants.

Actually the chain of communication is more like
CSA --> Station Master --> Area Controller --> Station Master --> CSA --> Intending Passenger
Guard --> Driver --> Signaller --> Area Controller --> Station Master --> CSA --> Intending Passenger

I would offer that communication gets up to the Controller well enough but it doesn't come back down in a proper fashion. And that's probably due to an old style institutional culture in the place.