If Ontario separated from Canada, it would have an extra $23 billion a year to spend on things like health care, education, economic development, infrastructure and tax cuts. Clearly, from a standard of living perspective, it is in Ontarians' interest to separate from Canada. Would you like to see Ontario separate from Canada?

It would be a course of action that is just too extreme for our current situation.

Besides, look what the threat of separation did to Quebec.

What a sick, disgusting and embarassing thread.
Go to hell!

I think its obvious that the federal government takes to much money from Ontario. But seperation is to extreme. Surely these issues can be worked out.

With a powerful economy like Ontario has it should'nt have deficits in the billions like it did this year.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/prov_budgets.html

It would be a course of action that is just too extreme for our current situation.

Besides, look what the threat of separation did to Quebec.
That was because the anglos left and so did many companies. If Ontario has free trade with the rest of Canada, I don't see a similar exodus occurring. The time has come for drastic measures. Even if McGuinty gets the $5 billion he's asking for, it still means Ontario sends $18 billion a year more to the feds than it receives, a figure that is set to grow as the "equalization" program gets even more generous at Ontario's expense. It doesn't seem right.

What a sick, disgusting and embarassing thread.
Go to hell!
Is it as sick and disgusting as the $23 billion that the feds rob from Ontario every year, leaving our schools, health care, infrastructure, and finances in a shambles?

Perhaps if you were more educated you would understand the equalization system the federal government has with the provinces. Would you like to see other Canadians in so-called 'have not' provinces become worse off as their situation would be exacerbated by Ontario refusing to share its wealth? Heartless.

Perhaps if you were more educated you would understand the equalization system the federal government has with the provinces. Would you like to see other Canadians in so-called 'have not' provinces become worse off as their situation would be exacerbated by Ontario refusing to share its wealth? Heartless.
Are you implying that Ontarians should continue to subsidize better health care, education, immigrant funding, economic development and infrastructure in other provinces than what Ontario gets? Because that is what is happening now. Why aren't you upset with Quebec for wanting to separate even after receiving countless billions in Ontario tax money since 1950? Why aren't you mad at Newfoundland for lowering the Canadian flag after receiving countless billions in Ontario tax money? Don't you think it's ungrateful?

Perhaps if you were more educated you would understand the equalization system the federal government has with the provinces. Would you like to see other Canadians in so-called 'have not' provinces become worse off as their situation would be exacerbated by Ontario refusing to share its wealth? Heartless.
I have a degree in political science from the U of T. I think it is you who are uneducated. Whatsmore, a recent poll indicated 75% of Ontarians agree with McGuinty that Ontario is getting shafted by the equalization program, and its fiscal relationship with the feds.

Why aren't you upset with Quebec for wanting to separate even after receiving countless billions in Ontario tax money since 1950? Why aren't you mad at Newfoundland for lowering the Canadian flag after receiving countless billions in Ontario tax money? Don't you think it's ungrateful?
of course it's ungrateful. But Ontario threatening to seperate would be just as bad.

I was mad at all of that as well! That does not that I cannot be upset with your idiotic thread. By the way, I have a poli sci degree as well.

hey DRTO, are you in favour of Alberta separatism? Why not brake up the whole country?
I bet you're a Stephen Harper fan, aren't you?

hey DRTO, are you in favour of Alberta separatism? Why not brake up the whole country?
I bet you're a Stephen Harper fan, aren't you?
Alberta has a balanced budget, is wealthier than Ontario, and their wealth is generated predominantly by their resource (oil) industry. Since that is natural wealth generated from the land, I think it makes sense to share some of that with the rest of the country. Ontario is not blessed with such natural resources. In fact, when oil prices go up, Ontario gets poorer, and Alberta, Saskatchewan Newfoundland, and Nova Scotia get richer. That's why I don't sympathize with Albertans as much as Ontario, but I do think they suffer from a lack of government service in Alberta. Their taxes are much lower than Ontario's though!

okeeeeeeeeeee, this is just retarded cause im proud to be a canadian not an ontarian

Ontario gap risks killing 'golden goose,' report says

By TERRY WEBER

Friday, April 15, 2005 Updated at 3:17 PM EST

Globe and Mail Update

Ottawa is in danger of “killing the golden goose” by running a huge operating surplus while leaving Ontario to carry an increasingly heavy fiscal burden, a new report said Friday.

According to CIBC World Markets, the $23-billion federal operating surplus – the difference between what Ottawa collects in the province and what it gives back – is 10 times what it was a decade ago.

“With Ontario stretched to its financial limits, and the federal government still comfortably in the black, some are asking whether Ottawa is killing its golden goose,” the report said.

The report comes as Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty battles with Ottawa for an additional $5-billion in federal funding.

Mr. McGuinty argues that the $23-billion funding gap – based on the amounts Ottawa collects through things like income taxes, GST and employment insurance premiums and what it gives back in areas such as transfers and direct spending – has left Ontario struggling in terms of education and health-care funding.

Ontario, Mr. McGuinty says, now ranks 10th out of 10 provinces when it comes to per capita government investment in colleges and universities. Similarly, he says, Ontario ranks second last per capita when it comes to how much the provinces receive for health care.

The debate spilled over to Question Period in the House of Commons on Friday, with members of the Opposition demanding that Prime Minister Paul Martin set a firm date to meet with Mr. McGuinty to discuss the gap.

“This government should stop taking Ontario voters for granted,” Conservative MP Belinda Stronach said, citing the CIBC report.

“Mr. Speaker, the Toronto Board of Trade said that this government's failure to address the Ontario gap has resulted in “crumbling infrastructure, declining service levels and increasing municipal and provincial taxes.”

Deputy Prime Minister Anne McLellan countered that Mr. Martin has been “absolutely clear” about his willingness to “work with the province of ontario, department by department, minister by minister, on issues of substance.

“We have been doing that,” she said. “We will continue to do that.”

The dispute comes as polls suggest dwindling support both nationally and in Ontario for Mr. Martin's Liberals in the wake of damaging testimony at the current federal sponsorship inquiry.

In Friday's report, CIBC World Markets senior economists Warren Lovely said transfers between provinces are an integral part of Canada's federal system and that the idea of the so-called rich provinces helping out others isn't the issue.

But, he said, the "sheer magnitude” weighs on what the report called an “already burdened economy, taxing the Ontario government's ability to invest in a strong, vibrant provincial – and hence national – economy.”

Toronto Board of Trade president and chief executive Glen Grunwald, in a letter to the Prime Minister, also called on Mr. Martin to sit down with Mr. McGuinty.

"Sooner or later, your government will have to deal with the growing demands across the nation for a fairer fiscal balance between levels of government," he said.

"You and Premier McGuinty have an opportunity to demonstrate how this can be achieved by cooperatively addressing important issues. There is much that you and Premier McGuinty can talk about and act upon. It is time for you to take the meeting, and to take it seriously."

Actually while its true that Ontario does send bilions to the rest of Canada, part of that wealth thats generated in Ontario is due to the rest of Canada. Remember Toronto is the centre of Canada for business. These business operate in all of Canada with wealth generated in all of Canada going to Ontario in terms of jobs etc. If it were a seperate country, Toronto would be the centre of Ontario and not for the other regions. Thats something to consider. Not to mention the available labour pools from the rest of Canada for Toronto's economy. Its not as clear as you think it is. One has to figure out the benefit the rest of Canada in terms of taxes generated etc. Plus its also something to consider that Alberta pays $10 billion to the rest of Canada and now BC and SK are have provinces. It must also be remembered that the bulk of the money leaving Ontario is from the federal government. This is because the feds have the same tax rate across Canada and areas with higher wealth pay more in taxes. Its not like the federal government is going to set a lower tax rate in one province than the next.

Now in regard to poor infrastructure, health care and education spending. Thats actually up to the provincial government of Ontario and its huge debt since those are all priorities of teh provincial government. Remember that in terms of Program Spending the Ontario government spends $5,400 per person. That is the second lowest in Canada as NS spends $20 a person less. Alberta on the other hand spends over $8,000 per person. While most provinces are between $6,500 and $7,000 on programs (debt servicing is on top of that figure). Thus in reality is not that the money leaving Ontario from the feds thats casuing these problems its moreso that the provincial government wont spend on these items. To have the same level of spending per capita as Alberta for instance the Ontario government budget of $80 billion would have to grow by 60 billion a year from the current 80 billion. The debt of the Ontario provincial government is third per capita in Canada (just a couple hundred per person less than Quebec and will surpass Quebec at the rate its going and Newfoundland is way ahead in this department but their $2 billion a year form the feds will help). So that makes Ontario fight with one arm tied behind its back as it has to spend $10.8 billion a year just on debt servicing. That money can be huge for infrastucture, health care education etc.

okeeeeeeeeeee, this is just retarded cause im proud to be a canadian not an ontarian
But you pay Ontario taxes and receive Ontario services. You don't mind that Ontario has the lowest funding for education of the 10 provinces, and the second lowest funding for health care? You don't mind paying higher taxes to support more generous social programs in other provinces? You don't mind that for 35 out of the last 37 years, the prime minister has been from Quebec? You don't mind having to bribe Quebec and Newfoundland to stay in the country? What have they ever given to us? Seal clubbing and poutine? Yeah, that's something to be proud of!

While I agree that changes in the fiscal imbalance must come to fruition, separation is the worst option possible. It is far more complex than just saying 'we're separating!' It seems so elementary.
Proud to be CANADIAN!

Actually while its true that Ontario does send bilions to the rest of Canada, part of that wealth thats generated in Ontario is due to the rest of Canada. Remember Toronto is the centre of Canada for business. These business operate in all of Canada with wealth generated in all of Canada going to Ontario in terms of jobs etc. If it were a seperate country, Toronto would be the centre of Ontario and not for the other regions. Thats something to consider. Not to mention the available labour pools from the rest of Canada for Toronto's economy. Its not as clear as you think it is. One has to figure out the benefit the rest of Canada in terms of taxes generated etc. Plus its also something to consider that Alberta pays $10 billion to the rest of Canada and now BC and SK are have provinces. It must also be remembered that the bulk of the money leaving Ontario is from the federal government. This is because the feds have the same tax rate across Canada and areas with higher wealth pay more in taxes. Its not like the federal government is going to set a lower tax rate in one province than the next.

Now in regard to poor infrastructure, health care and education spending. Thats actually up to the provincial government of Ontario and its huge debt since those are all priorities of teh provincial government. Remember that in terms of Program Spending the Ontario government spends $5,400 per person. That is the second lowest in Canada as NS spends $20 a person less. Alberta on the other hand spends over $8,000 per person. While most provinces are between $6,500 and $7,000 on programs (debt servicing is on top of that figure). Thus in reality is not that the money leaving Ontario from the feds thats casuing these problems its moreso that the provincial government wont spend on these items. To have the same level of spending per capita as Alberta for instance the Ontario government budget of $80 billion would have to grow by 60 billion a year from the current 80 billion. The debt of the Ontario provincial government is third per capita in Canada (just a couple hundred per person less than Quebec and will surpass Quebec at the rate its going and Newfoundland is way ahead in this department but their $2 billion a year form the feds will help). So that makes Ontario fight with one arm tied behind its back as it has to spend $10.8 billion a year just on debt servicing. That money can be huge for infrastucture, health care education etc.
The Ontario government can't afford to spend on programs the way other provinces can, because of the $23 billion funding gap with the federal government. That is the issue. If Ontario got all the money it's given to other provinces back, over the past 50 years, the debt would be wiped out, and we would have a massive surplus. All Ontarians want is to be treated fairly, not treated as an ATM machine that feds withdraw money from every time they want to buy votes in Quebec or the Maritimes, or BC. It would be alright if they started depositing money into the Ontario piggy bank, but they've raided it so much, Ontario is now broke!

I don't want Ontario to separate. So goes Ontario, so goes Canada.
That said they are getting screwed. When equalisation goes up that just means Ontario, especially Toronto, gets poorer.
When is Ontario goiung to REALLY stand up. Theyy should get 5bill NOW, not on the federal never-never plan.
The problem is that the Liberals can take Ontario for granted. Only now, when they know they can't is Martin willing to talk.

But you pay Ontario taxes and receive Ontario services.

Exactly my point. Putting Alberta aside as I think its purely an anomoly when compared to the rest of Canada (GDP per capita is 14,000 higher than second place Ontario which is only 2,000 ahead of third place SK). The provincial government spending is extremely low in Ontario when compared with other provinces and part of it is that Ontario provincial taxes the lowest. It also has the third highest and soon to be highest debt burden per capita. You cant carry a huge debt, and not expect it to catch up with you. Either increase provincial taxes, or cut servces lower. Remember that even if the feds increased transfers to Ontario to the tune of $23 billion that is being sent to the rest of Canada (and that Ontario recieves nothing from being the business capital of Canada) Ontario would still be funding programs at a rate on a per capita basis below most other provinces.

!!!
This thread is soooo rebellious!

so i guess we Canadians always yell out "seperate!" whenever things don't go our way......shameful.

Personally, I don't think any province will separate from Canada, save one......................NewFoundland.
Quebec loves the money too much and has incredible political power. NewFoundland's economy is growing due to oil and minerals and is expecting to reach the national average in GDP within 10 years due to this. Thats when they will make their move. NewFoundlander's may love Canada but have always had mixed feelings and unlike Quebec have never had or will have any political power.

U might as well just seperate every province from Canada and turn them into their own country .. why not? That would be just as smart as seperating Ontario, which is the main province/area in Canada ... Maybe its true that it will give ONTARIO more money towards health-care, etc, but like many people already stated, all the other canadian provinces will lose money.. i dunno, i cant explain it properly, but i can see many people here have said pretty much the same as me, so theres no real point of me saying it again :)

Ontario IS Canada

The Republic of Ontario.

Why should we separate? This is a stupid proposition that doesn't hold weight.

BTW, the reason why Toronto's booming is because it's Canada's most important city. People invest in Ontario so they can gain access to Canada's markets. Without this, we're nothing. ~

Ontario as a country wouldn't do well. We don't even have an International seaport.

Carrying the prestige of Canada is what catipulted us on to the world stage. Without that, our Int'l status would diminish.

As has been pointed out, Ontario wouldn't be as wealthy without the rest of Canada.
Nevertheless, Ontario is getting screwed to some degree. I don't think it's as bad as some would have us believe but I still think that it is indeed the case. This is one nation however and the whole idea is to pool resources for the betterment of ALL Canadians. I think that if Ontario is not getting it's fair share to give it equal wealth generally speaking then it's time to give it back some of that money. No, Ontario will indeed still be subsidizing the rest of Canada for some time to come but in fifty years who knows? It could just as easily be the other way around. Don't forget after all that a have-not province isn't poor, it simply doesn't make as much money as the others.

Ontario is fine in Canada. In fact, I think Ontario could even be divided into more provinces to better represent the regions.

I think Ontario and Canada for that matter would be better served for provinces that do not wish to be part of the country leave. They only become distractions and hinder any prosperity and cohesion.

Ontarians just have to let the Liberals in Ottawa know that if they don't make some changes in their favor, then they will simply vote them out of office. Martin's tune is already beginning to change.

Ontarians just have to let the Liberals in Ottawa know that if they don't make some changes in their favor, then they will simply vote them out of office. Martin's tune is already beginning to change.
Sounds like the same old tune to me:

Ont. should help poorer provinces: MP

Canadian Press

Friday, April 15, 2005


OTTAWA -- Ontario pays more into federal coffers than it gets back in transfer payments because it is a relatively wealthy province, says the parliamentary secretary to the minister of finance.

And that is as it should be, John McKay told the House of Commons on Friday.

He was responding to questions about a CIBC World Markets report that says the province shoulders an increasingly heavy load in supporting Canada's poorer provinces through transfer payments.

"The federal government has long taken relatively more out of Ontario to support less well-off provinces,'' Warren Lovely, senior economist with CIBC World Markets, said Friday in a statement.

But McKay defended the transfer payments.

"On the other side other equation, Ontario does not have as many poor seniors,'' he said. "Ontario, on a per capita basis, does not have as many unemployed people, the consequence of which is that those transfers do not come back into Ontario.

"I do not understand the argument. Should we be asking that Ontario be less wealthy, have more poor seniors and more unemployment?''

Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty has been at odds with the federal government over a $23-billion gap between what his province sends to federal coffers and what it receives in return.

McGuinty insists the gap leaves Ontario so broke that it has the lowest levels of funding for colleges and universities, and the second lowest for health care.

He wants another $5 billion in federal funding.

The CIBC World Markets report suggested the $23-billion gap is 10 times what it was a decade ago.

Quoting from the report, Conservative MP Belinda Stronach asked in the Commons when Prime Minister Paul Martin would meet with McGuinty to discuss the gap.

Martin has said he's willing work with the province, "department by department, minister by minister, on issues of substance,'' deputy prime minister Anne McLellan replied. "We have been doing that. We will continue to do that.''

McGuinty complained earlier this week that Martin has lost touch with the people of the province.

Martin has said in the past he would be "more than happy'' to discuss affairs of state with McGuinty.

So far, nearly a third of respondents agree that Ontario should separate. That's not too far from the 50% needed to win a referendum. I predict there will be an Ontario separatist party within the next 5 years, and it will do well.

Ontario IS Canada

Ontario cannot separate from Canada because Ontario is Canada.
Most Ontarians consider themselves Canadian’s first,
unlike most other Canadian’s.

Canada and the Providences look on Toronto as if it were their
very own ATM machine. They kick it, spit on it and tell each other
how much they hate it, but they always get back in line to get
more and more cash.

Ontario certainly gets a rawww deal from the rest of Canada, but I don't think the solution is to separate. Although if Ontario were to separate I don't think you'd see an exodus of people à la Québec (who were scared of a unilingual Francophone country). It's a classic parent-child relationship. Eldest child Ontario, who's big and strong, doesn't get any seconds on dessert because second eldest child Québec has tempermental problems and whopping cough get seconds. BC's the teenager who's got pot addiction, but in a few years, he'll be as good as new. Alberta, who's a bit younger and entering high school is getting more confident because she's recently been developing and discovered her assets.

I haven't read through all of this thread yet, but it must be a joke.
Ontario invented Canada, so why would it want to separate.
Canada barely carries any weight in the world as it is, so all these ideas of separation (including Quebec) are a bit ridiculous.

Even when it comes to much maligned Newfoundland, the truth is that Canada wanted it in 1949 not only for its iron ore & hydro resources, but also because they were afraid that such a strategic area would fall into American hands. The loss of any part of Canada (world's second largest country) as it now exists would be a bad joke.

Alberta, who's a bit younger and entering high school is getting more confident because she's recently been developing and discovered her assets.

In more ways than one... :naughty:

Wait...I shouldn't be talking about my own province like that...

Ontario cannot separate from Canada because Ontario is Canada.

Now, if that was true, every person in this country that felt more 'Canadian' would also feel very Ontario-ian...(I don't know how you would go about saying that properly) but that's clearly not the case.

But whatever, I'm an Albertan first, and I'm proud of it...

If Ontario wants to stop being Canada's bitch then it should go ahead and do what it wants. If that happens to include seperation then fine. It probably wouldn't affect daily life here in Alberta (much) anyways...

I will, however, hold my vote in this poll.

EDIT: BTW from now on, when you address Alberta in a National Context, you are to address her as 'Our Little Princess!'

:jk:

Samsonyuen are you saying Alberta is the hottie?

So does that mean that BC the pot head is groping her? And is Saskatchwan the sister thats flat as a board, jelous of her sisters money makers?

Personally, I don't think any province will separate from Canada, save one......................NewFoundland.
Quebec loves the money too much and has incredible political power. NewFoundland's economy is growing due to oil and minerals and is expecting to reach the national average in GDP within 10 years due to this. Thats when they will make their move. NewFoundlander's may love Canada but have always had mixed feelings and unlike Quebec have never had or will have any political power.
SSIGUY I don't think that will happen anytime soon, Nflders are a very patriotic bunch, and they do actually "feel" Canadian, as well as "Newfoundlandian". But if Canada ever disintegrates, that might change. Newfoundland is an older sister who was on her own for a long time, but is very attached to tradition.

I honestly dont think that every province would be worse off alone. Canada is greater than the sum of the parts. Not to mention that I honestly think that we will mature as a country. I think talk of seperating is just athat. If like we are little kids, the I want it my way or Im going home with my toys attitude.

We as a country had better show some maturity, or as seen in the recent CBC production H2O, the US will step in and take us over in the interest of National security. Any bickering is thus really ridiculous. Canada would not be Canada without Quebec, the West, and the rest of the country.

If the people of Ontario really want to seperate, then they should be allowed to do so, but get in line, cause as I see it it's first come first serve. Quebec filed the first intention, then Alberta, then BC, then Newfounland, and Ontario's next.

Mind you I think it'd be detrimental to all to see the country be split, even if I'd like to see an independant BC, with Vancouver Island as it's own province again.

Samsonyuen are you saying Alberta is the hottie?

So does that mean that BC the pot head is groping her? And is Saskatchwan the sister thats flat as a board, jelous of her sisters money makers?

I'm saying is that Alberta certainly has her assets and is very attractive. That's all! BC better not be trying to! And yes, I'm sure Saskatchewan wants to be as developed as her twin sister, but it's all genetics.

Ontario did not create Canada! It was one of four founding provinces, les we forget.

Interesting article in the Star, though highly unlikely situations
______________
Canada heading toward breakup, Ignatieff warns
Political crisis fuel for separatists, he says

Harvard prof proposes royal commission

ISABEL TEOTONIO
STAFF REPORTER

The current political crisis in Ottawa is destroying national unity and hurtling Canada toward a constitutional crisis, Harvard scholar Michael Ignatieff said yesterday at Osgoode Hall Law School in Toronto.

Whenever the next election rolls around, Quebec nationalist parties will likely swell in support and with that surge comes a renewed call for separation, he warned. But this time, a referendum to separate could result in an "unequivocally" clear result.

"We might all find ourselves unwilling participants in an experiment unprecedented in the annals of political history — not the breakup of a failed state, but the dissolution of a mighty, successful and admired G-8 country," said Ignatieff, a human rights professor.

"The federal political party (system) is failing us," he said.

Ignatieff made his comments in a keynote address at the law school's eighth annual Constitutional Cases Conference, which attracted more than 30 constitutional experts who spoke of the Supreme Court of Canada's constitutional decisions in 2004.

His comments came on the heels of a week in which polls showed support plummeting for the Liberals' minority government. Support has been slipping since the federal government's sponsorship scandal surfaced, but it took a nosedive last week after testimony at the Gomery inquiry by former Montreal ad executive Jean Brault was made public. Brault alleged gross misconduct in the Quebec wing of the federal Liberal party.

A Toronto Star poll, conducted by EKOS Research Associates, found that Liberals are now trailing in every region of the country, particularly in Quebec where support for the Bloc has risen to 50 per cent.

But it's not just Quebecers who may be wondering about their place in Canada, warned Ignatieff. If other regions become convinced that fiscal imbalances or regional disparities aren't properly managed by Ottawa, they too may turn alienation and discontent into something much more serious.

"Our constitutional crisis is rapidly becoming systemic," said Ignatieff.

Atlantic provinces discovering new energy wealth are seeking to patriate this wealth for their own development. Hard-pressed Ontario is trying to keep up with rising health and education costs, while raising fundamental questions about its historic role in equalization. Alberta has its own concerns with equalization and Saskatchewan wants to renegotiate its deal.

Add to that list, he said, cash-strapped municipalities that are asking where they fit into fiscal federalism, which is structured around distributing taxation and revenue between federal and provincial governments.

One way to mend the nation's unravelling fabric is to appoint a royal commission with multi-party representation from all levels of government, he suggested.

"Nothing would do more to address the risk of complacency and fatigue that besets the federalist cause," he said. "

I never thought I'd see separatist rumblings in Ontario. I think Dalton McGuinty is largely to blame for this phenomenon. He won an election with promises to balance the budget and improve quality of life in the province without increasing taxes... and failed at delivering on all three. Then, instead of standing up like a man and taking responsibility for it, he pulled the tired old trick of using the federal government as a scapegoat, demonizing Ottawa and the rest of Canada. True, maintaining Canada is costing Ontario (and Alberta) a lot of money, but McGuinty and his party knew Ontario's fiscal situation when they were campaigning, and it isn't like the feds suddenly grabbed 23 billion from Ontario without warning.

Then again, this poll is silly and doesn't prove a thing. I have a feeling that there are some non-Ontarians voting "yes" just for kicks, or maybe because they feel that a Canada sans Ontario would fall apart, thus allowing their own provinces to finally be independent.

The thought of Canada separating used to scare me to death. But the idea's been kicked around so much by so many parts of the country, I'm becoming indifferent to it. I truly hope Canada stays together, but if not, it'll be an interesting sequence of events to live through.

On the plus side of Canada falling apart: can you imagine how intense the hockey rivalries would be at international tournaments?

Samsonyuen are you saying Alberta is the hottie?

So does that mean that BC the pot head is groping her? And is Saskatchwan the sister thats flat as a board, jelous of her sisters money makers?

Alberta's a slut for BC, she keeps rubbing her mountainous parts up against BC's body. :jk:

SSIGUY I don't think that will happen anytime soon, Nflders are a very patriotic bunch, and they do actually "feel" Canadian, as well as "Newfoundlandian". But if Canada ever disintegrates, that might change. Newfoundland is an older sister who was on her own for a long time, but is very attached to tradition.
Newfies were cheering their premiere as he lowered the Canadian flag. Yes, very patriotic indeed. I admit they got ripped off when Quebec stole their hydro power, but does that mean Ontario has to foot the bill every time they demand more money? I'm surprised Ontario isn't sending money to Alberta under the current "equalization" scheme.

Until Ontario gets treated fairly in the Confederation, there will be a growing separatist movement in this province. It seems that the only ones benefiting from Ontario's prosperity at this point are Canadians living outside Ontario. That must change, and change soon, or this country has no future. I don't see Martin, another Quebec prime minister who intentionally exacerbated Ontario's fiscal situation vis a vis the rest of the country willing to do anything about it. He's about to lose Ontario, and still is unwilling to meet McGuinty. He loves to take credit for federal surpluses, when we all know it's Ontarians who are responsible for them, having paid for it with substandard government services and high taxes.

Until Ontario gets treated fairly in the Confederation, there will be a growing separatist movement in this province. It seems that the only ones benefiting from Ontario's prosperity at this point are Canadians living outside Ontario. That must change, and change soon, or this country has no future. I don't see Martin, another Quebec prime minister who intentionally exacerbated Ontario's fiscal situation vis a vis the rest of the country willing to do anything about it. He's about to lose Ontario, and still is unwilling to meet McGuinty. He loves to take credit for federal surpluses, when we all know it's Ontarians who are responsible for generating them, having paid for them with substandard government services and high taxes.

^^^ You didn't have to say it twice, we're not deaf ya know. ;)

I'm saying is that Alberta certainly has her assets and is very attractive. That's all! BC better not be trying to! And yes, I'm sure Saskatchewan wants to be as developed as her twin sister, but it's all genetics.

Ontario did not create Canada! It was one of four founding provinces, les we forget.

Interesting article in the Star, though highly unlikely situations
______________
Canada heading toward breakup, Ignatieff warns
Political crisis fuel for separatists, he says

Harvard prof proposes royal commission

ISABEL TEOTONIO
STAFF REPORTER

The current political crisis in Ottawa is destroying national unity and hurtling Canada toward a constitutional crisis, Harvard scholar Michael Ignatieff said yesterday at Osgoode Hall Law School in Toronto.

Whenever the next election rolls around, Quebec nationalist parties will likely swell in support and with that surge comes a renewed call for separation, he warned. But this time, a referendum to separate could result in an "unequivocally" clear result.

"We might all find ourselves unwilling participants in an experiment unprecedented in the annals of political history — not the breakup of a failed state, but the dissolution of a mighty, successful and admired G-8 country," said Ignatieff, a human rights professor.

"The federal political party (system) is failing us," he said.

Ignatieff made his comments in a keynote address at the law school's eighth annual Constitutional Cases Conference, which attracted more than 30 constitutional experts who spoke of the Supreme Court of Canada's constitutional decisions in 2004.

His comments came on the heels of a week in which polls showed support plummeting for the Liberals' minority government. Support has been slipping since the federal government's sponsorship scandal surfaced, but it took a nosedive last week after testimony at the Gomery inquiry by former Montreal ad executive Jean Brault was made public. Brault alleged gross misconduct in the Quebec wing of the federal Liberal party.

A Toronto Star poll, conducted by EKOS Research Associates, found that Liberals are now trailing in every region of the country, particularly in Quebec where support for the Bloc has risen to 50 per cent.

But it's not just Quebecers who may be wondering about their place in Canada, warned Ignatieff. If other regions become convinced that fiscal imbalances or regional disparities aren't properly managed by Ottawa, they too may turn alienation and discontent into something much more serious.

"Our constitutional crisis is rapidly becoming systemic," said Ignatieff.

Atlantic provinces discovering new energy wealth are seeking to patriate this wealth for their own development. Hard-pressed Ontario is trying to keep up with rising health and education costs, while raising fundamental questions about its historic role in equalization. Alberta has its own concerns with equalization and Saskatchewan wants to renegotiate its deal.

Add to that list, he said, cash-strapped municipalities that are asking where they fit into fiscal federalism, which is structured around distributing taxation and revenue between federal and provincial governments.

One way to mend the nation's unravelling fabric is to appoint a royal commission with multi-party representation from all levels of government, he suggested.

"Nothing would do more to address the risk of complacency and fatigue that besets the federalist cause," he said. "


Oh, man, Ignatieff... This pseudo-intellectual has considered becoming a politician for some time, and the tone of this speech suggests he hasn't let go of this idea quite yet.

---

As for the 'growing' feeling of separatism in Ontario, give me a break... If it ever did separate from Canada, it would be one of the last provinces to do so. In any case, the polls have consistently shown that Ontario isn't going anywhere (nor is Alberta for that matter, whose satisfaction with Canada is on level with Ontario), and nothing will have greatly changed this year. Bickering as usual, that's business as usual for a federation as loose as ours.

Newfies were cheering their premiere as he lowered the Canadian flag. Yes, very patriotic indeed. I admit they got ripped off when Quebec stole their hydro power, but does that mean Ontario has to foot the bill every time they demand more money? I'm surprised Ontario isn't sending money to Alberta under the current "equalization" scheme.
Not all Newfies were cheering about that, I can tell you.
Besides, lowering the flag to make a statement is a far cry from stomping on or burning it. Why do you make such a statement about Alberta, they also have the luxury of being economically well off. There is too much regional provincialism in Canada, when it is really just one country, and should be viewed as such. If Ontario spends money on some of its poorer Northern areas, it's not really different from helping other less advantaged parts of the country. The only differences are lines drawn on a map.

Never.

Alberta's a slut for BC, she keeps rubbing her mountainous parts up against BC's body. :jk:

Yes but it is BC thats laying next to her with a tent like shape in every region.

Separation is never good.

Remember that if Ontario could separate from Canada, any Ontarian territory could separate from Ontario.

I voted yes, but conditionally. The condition being that Quebec goes first. If Quebec goes, things become a lot less logistically complicated, and even convenient actually.
And we'll pillage Ottawa when we separate and kick it out of the new country! How convenient that it be located on the very border, it makes it all too easy!
I'm so sick of it, Toronto has been getting raped for at least 13 years now and services have continuously been declining.
Screw you guys!
It's time for not only extreme action, I think revenge is warranted (see Ottawa pillage reference).
This isn't McGuinty's fault either, his conservative predecessors started the decline, and at maximum speed no less. If the NDP had stayed in power, things would never have gotten this bad, service levels would be way higher, we'd have more stable education and more subway lines in Toronto, among other things.
However, it's the archaic system governing at the federal level that's the cause, and if you have the option to just get rid of the problem, then get rid of it!
Anybody that thinks separation is a joke should look at the divides that exist in this country. You had liberal Ontario about to do something else, you have the conservative west, the block east, with scattered mish-mash in the atlantic. Separation ignititers are in place without a doubt, and they are now being ignited like wildfire.
I've traded in my Canadian identity lately, and it is not for Ontario either, I am Torontonian, nothing more. Screw all the others robbing my city blind, and suffer when my city stops being there for you. Yeah, we're nice guys, but if try to walk all over us and steal our stuff, we'll change our attitude eventually. You don't want to see us angry.

I admit they got ripped off when Quebec stole their hydro power

wow, you're such a bigot, the newfies fucked big time when they signed the contract with Quebec back then, they made a monumental error on the price per mwh.

Once the newfies noticed that, they went to court many times, just to be turned back each time by the judges because the contract was signed and valid.

wow, you're such a bigot, the newfies fucked (blah blah blah)

:rofl:
I like newfy jokes like anybody else, I also happen to enjoy the jokes Swedes make about the Norwegians (hear about the Norwegian suicide bomber? He's recovering in hospital), but your hypocrisy is fabulous. :yes:

wow, you're such a bigot, the newfies fucked big time when they signed the contract with Quebec back then, they made a monumental error on the price per mwh.

Once the newfies noticed that, they went to court many times, just to be turned back each time by the judges because the contract was signed and valid.

Anyone actually know when this contract expires?

The price goes from 0.25¢/kwh to 0.20¢/kwh in 2016, forty years after the Churchill Falls Agreement began. This contract renewal is for twenty-five more years, so the Agreement lasts until 2041.

Source: http://www.empireclubfoundation.com/details.asp?SpeechID=590&FT=yes

Does NewFoundland Government have the ability to shut down the company strip it of some of its assets and do a new contract as the party to the old contract has gone under, thus no company is left? Also does Newfoundland have to accept the renewal at for the other 25 years. If not then this deal is up in 11 years.

Ontario to separate from the rest of Canada??? :ohno:

That's a horrible thought!

Canada must remain united. Alberta, Ontario, Quebec and all. :grouphug:

big W: I think the renewal is not a renewal in the optional sense, but just a continuation, but with lower rates. I think there might be a penalty if NL doesn't deliver?

Unity is good.
Separation is bad.

Separation doesn't resolve problems, because even Ontario could be separable.

All of this talk of separatism is foolish. Alberta wants to separate, Ontario wants to separate, and Quebec wants to separate. Leaving Quebec out of this discussion, it would not be feasable, realistically, for Alberta and Ontario to separate. They would become a country entirely surrounded, without complete access to the sea. Alberta would be cut off entirely, while Ontario would have to go through the hassle of being granted permission to use the St. Lawrence Seaway.

I think it's useless.

^ regardless, of what goes on this forum, Alberta and Ontario separatist movements are on the very fringe, and both enjoy about the same amount of support -- which isn't saying very much. The only real threat of separation in Canada remains Quebec.

There are landlocked countries that are successful. Ontario has the Hudson Bay (for half the year).

i think that if ANY province in canada were to seperate, the whole country would fall apart..

big W: I think the renewal is not a renewal in the optional sense, but just a continuation, but with lower rates. I think there might be a penalty if NL doesn't deliver?

At lower rates? Thats hosing them big time. I knew that this is a huge windfall for the Province of Quebec and for Hydro. But didn't think it was to this extent. Man I feel for NL as whomever negoiated this one screwed up big time. I would think that if this is adjusted properly Quebec would have a huge deficit while Newfoundland would be up on its feet.

Confederation is built on the principles of "have" and "have not" provinces.

Ontario has always "had" the money and when it is sent and redistributed by the Feds, Ontarians "have not" got much of that money to spend in Ontario.

Gee, $20 billion or so... that could fix a pot-hole or two.

Confederation is built on the principles of "have" and "have not" provinces.

Ontario has always "had" the money and when it is sent and redistributed by the Feds, Ontarians "have not" got much of that money to spend in Ontario.

Gee, $20 billion or so... that could fix a pot-hole or two.
Well, you are wrong. When confederation occurred, New Brunswick and Nova Scotia were rich. The economy of the two were booming. My city Saint John, NB was one of the largest ship producers in the world before the era of wooden-trade ships extinguished. If anything, Confederation screwed us over- at the time anyway.

Ontario would never make it as a succesful independent nation.

Ontario would never make it as a succesful independent nation.
That just made another thought come to mind. I agree with your statement. I agree because what exactly does Ontario have as a sustainable source of wealth? Their main source of wealth seems to come from the fact that the nation's banks are centralized in Toronto. If you take away the Canadian Banks: BMO, RBC, TD, Scotia etc. what else would be left in order to sustain Ontario's wealth?

It's just a thought, and I do not have any statistics on this issue.

Southern Ontario is dependant on manufacturing, not on banks. Access to the States would be more important than access to the sea.

Southern Ontario is dependant on manufacturing, not on banks. Access to the States would be more important than access to the sea.
Well, I would not disregard the fact that the Chartered Banks of Canada centralize in Toronto. There are a lot of towers, very tall towers, employing a lot of people.

That just made another thought come to mind. I agree with your statement. I agree because what exactly does Ontario have as a sustainable source of wealth? Their main source of wealth seems to come from the fact that the nation's banks are centralized in Toronto. If you take away the Canadian Banks: BMO, RBC, TD, Scotia etc. what else would be left in order to sustain Ontario's wealth?

It's just a thought, and I do not have any statistics on this issue.


Pretty dumb.

Not everyone in Ontario is a banker.

I vote yes.

Canada in its present form is a sham country anyway, so keeping it together is not as much a patriotic virtue as it is about convenience and maintaining the "safe" status-quo as opposed to individual provinces standing alone, fearing being swallowed up by the U.S. piecemeal, which is pretty-much the situation anyhow. Not that the Americans really want any piece of us when they can have access to most anything they want by way of NAFTA--which is why no province of Canada will likely ever become an American state. NAFTA also makes the U.S. a far richer and much more important market for Ontario than is the rest of Canada these days, so it makes Canada's lowest-common denominator-style federalism all the more absurd if you're living in Ontario because it only impoverishes Ontario when we need to compete in a North American market and benefit to a minor degree from the rest of Canada.

Having a major seaport is irrelevant as there's no way Ontario would be denied access to the St. Lawrence. Not that it really matters. Nearly everything Ontario exports goes to the U.S. and they also have some say in St. Lawrence seaway and wouldn't tolerate such silliness on the part of others denying acess to a very important trading partner such as Ontario. Quebec, Ontario's most important trading partner in Canada would also want to keep good relations with Ontario.

Ontario's wealth is based on more industries than just the banking industry.

Ontario and Quebec could both survive on their own if they had to because they are the country's two most powerful provinces. I've said it before and I'll say it again, this is because...

a. The population in each province
b. The number of seats they each hold in the House of Commons
c. They are both industry and manufacturing leaders.

Ontario is the 3rd largest exporter to the U.S. after Canada (as a whole) and Japan. We have the country's largest film, television and theatre industries, the second largest automotive sector on the continent after Detroit, most of Canada's most successful businesses are based in Toronto, the largest biotechnology and biomedical cluster in all of North America, 42% of all Canadian assets, the continent's biggest tourist attraction (Niagara Falls...)

I could go on...

... and yet, the province gives out more to the rest of the country than it receives for itself. Not a good investment.

Pretty dumb.

Not everyone in Ontario is a banker.
Thanks for the compliment. I never said everyone is a banker. I said that the Chartered Banks are an important source of wealth for Ontario. It's not debatable, they employ a lot of people. So, I'm wondering, what other industries are as significant as the Chartered Banks that would be able to sustain Ontario's wealth.

Everyone should just get along.

The Canadian Pledge of Allegence:

I pledge allegence to the maple leaf
Of the United Provinces of Canada
And to the federal government
For which it stands
One nation, under hockey, indivisible
With beer and bacon for all.

Everyone should just get along.

The Canadian Pledge of Allegence:

I pledge allegence to the maple leaf
Of the United Provinces of Canada
And to the federal government
For which it stands
One nation, under hockey, indivisible
With beer and bacon for all.

The federal government is exactly the problem with Canada and the single largest impediment to future prosperity in Ontario.

Thanks for the compliment. I never said everyone is a banker. I said that the Chartered Banks are an important source of wealth for Ontario. It's not debatable, they employ a lot of people. So, I'm wondering, what other industries are as significant as the Chartered Banks that would be able to sustain Ontario's wealth.

Well, actually, you said the banks seem to be our main source of wealth, which is absurd.

That can't even be said for Toronto let alone the rest of Ontario.

Ontario's wealth is based on more industries than just the banking industry.

Ontario and Quebec could both survive on their own if they had to because they are the country's two most powerful provinces. I've said it before and I'll say it again, this is because...

a. The population in each province
b. The number of seats they each hold in the House of Commons
c. They are both industry and manufacturing leaders.

Ontario is the 3rd largest exporter to the U.S. after Canada (as a whole) and Japan. We have the country's largest film, television and theatre industries, the second largest automotive sector on the continent after Detroit, most of Canada's most successful businesses are based in Toronto, the largest biotechnology and biomedical cluster in all of North America, 42% of all Canadian assets, the continent's biggest tourist attraction (Niagara Falls...)

I could go on...

... and yet, the province gives out more to the rest of the country than it receives for itself. Not a good investment.

We have the country's largest film industries

Oh really? since when? Once you become a independent nation, there goes your television industry as well, as they would move to another Canadian City, and not have their headquarters in another country. Possibly even the manufacturing industries, they might want to be based in a country with a larger population. The continents biggest attraction is Niagra falls? i didnt know that, it might be, but care to back it up?

Ontario and Quebec could both survive on their own if they had to because they are the country's two most powerful provinces. I've said it before and I'll say it again, this is because...

a. The population in each province
b. The number of seats they each hold in the House of Commons
c. They are both industry and manufacturing leaders.

All three of those reasons are completely irrelevant.
Population: Population is irrelevant. Look at Luxembourg. There are countries with 3 million people that are quite wealthy, ie- United Arab Emirates.
The number of seats: Well, since the seats distributed is reflected by the province's population, the seats would simply be re-distributed amongst the remaining provinces.
Industry and manufacturing leaders: Ok, you make cars, congratulations.

Dino Domingo your wrong. I would actually say that Alberta is way ahead of Ontario or Quebec in that regard if becoming a sucessful nation on its own were considered. What one has to remember is that Alberta gives more to the rest of Canada on a per capita basis than Ontario. THis amount right now is about $12 billion a year (Alberta's population is a quarter of Ontario's but pays half that amount into confederation that Ontario does). The province of Alberta has no debt vs Ontario and Quebec which are saddled with debts of over $10,000 per person along with the value of the national debt of $15,500 per capita. Alberta has pools of money valued at around 18 billion right now in various funds. If say Alberta took its fair share of the national debt 10% Alberta would be on the hook for $49 billion, which leaves the province in the whole for $31 billion. Alberta would also have to add up the value of all federal government assets and take 10%. Then is the assets (infrastructure, buildings, land both here in Canada and abroad etc) in Alberta are valued at greater than this Alberta would pay more and if less the Canada would owe Alberta. In the case of Alberta, the assets of the feds are lower than its percentage of population (unlike Ontario and Quebec) thus a further amount would be passed onto the other provinces. Leaving Alberta with a total debt load of less than $30 billion. With the current amount of money leaving Alberta right now and the surpluses of the Provincial government this could be paid off in less than 2 years. Of course Alberta would then have to open up embassies etc around the world and this would of course have a cost as would creating a currency and other government activities. But in 2 years this province could actually eliminate all income taxes as it would have no debt to support and the amount of money remaining would be huge. Then of course the province could focus on building enough money in a giant piggy bank that essentually the province would make money off of investments that would be greater than government expenses.

However what would actually work in a better way is to do what was said with the Alberta firewall. This is actually a way of getting more control without risk of seperation may cause. If one looks at the firewall it is nothing out of the ordinary, but would be something that could have huge for the dynamics of this country. Alberta could opt out of the CPP. Alberta would of course take 12.5% of the money there. This is not new as Quebec is not part of the CPP, which is why Alberta gets 12.5% of the assets rather than the 10%. This would have the effect of dropping the rates for people in Alberta as the population of Alberta is the youngest (lower % of people drawing from it and more time to let it grow). Then the same goes for EI a lower %'age of people are drawing from it in Alberta than anywhere in teh rest of the country. The rates on these would also drop as there would be less people drawing from it and more people paying into it. Essentually this would force the rates up across Canada and drop the rates in Alberta. Furthering an advantage Alberta has. Then there is the question of setting up a provincial police force and leave the RCMP. This would essentually limit the amount of money going to the feds and gives Alberta more control (Quebec and Ontario already have this). Not to mention the Alberta Provincial Police will actually have a crime lab here in Alberta which is one the RCMP just shut down due to money, yet the Alberta government just increased funding to the RCMP significantly in this past provincial budget (seems odd that they can't keep it open if they had an increased budget from Alberta, unless some of this RCMP money is going somewhere else? Hmmmm I wonder). Then there is the ALberta collecting taxes here in Alberta then giving the money to the feds (Quebec does this as we speak). The differance is that Alberta pays billions while Quebec recieves money thus unlike Charet, the Alberta premier would have the ability to hold a gun to the head of teh PM at any time by withholding money to the feds rather than the feds having the ability to withhod money right now as the feds do give transfer payments to all provinces for health education etc. If that were the case Alberta could do whatever it pleases and still be a part of Canada. Think about that?

no it shouldn't

Let's be honest Ontario isn't going to leave. The US would just invade the next day. Than they would expand Michigan into Ontario.