These unseen pics, that's what.
These are pics I was slow to post from my January trip to Milwaukee.

http://herodotus.topcities.com/00/mil00.jpg
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God I love Milwaukee.

Great pics, Milwaukee looks beautiful.

http://herodotus.topcities.com/00/mil01.jpg
Jeez, I wouldn't be able to tell if this were Indy or Milwaukee.

What's with rowhouses? How can anyone stand living like that? I see that stuff in Racine and Milwaukee; I'm sure there is some in Kenosha I just haven't found it yet. Anyways Racine is fairly suburban due to it's location to Milwaukee though not an actual suburb; other landmark WI cities don't have these row houses.

Some rowhouses look nice but most don't, though they are big. Either way I would take most of them, they're just too damn close to neighbors. You have 3 square feet of yard space and that's it.

Milwaukee barely has any rows. If you are bothered by what Milwaukee has, you would be in big trouble in the northeast. All of the cities here, with the exception of Western NY, have rowhouses by the thousands. Philly has rowhouses numbering in the hundreds of thousands, and I would think New York does too.

I love rowhouses, and yes, Milwaukee has very few true row houses. None, really, in this thread. Apartments, yes, row houses, none. Great pictures, as i said at SSP :)

I always thought rowhouses were connected.

It seems Ben is confusing housing types.

Rowhouses consist of single-units with multiple floors strung together in rows so that adjacent units share a wall (a "party wall," as it is shared by the tenants or parties on either side of the wall). So yes, rowhousing is "connected" in that sense. Rowhousing is extremely rare in Milwaukee--and none of them are pictured above.

Duplexes consist of two separate units contained within a single building, typically one stacked on top of the other (though they can be side-by-side as well). In the particular neighborhoods pictured above (1880s-1920s), developers built duplexes on tightly-packed long and narrow lots (about 30-40 feet wide, 100-130 feet long), but they were not connected to their next-door neighbors. This allowed them to build reltively inexpensive houses (duplexes cost less to build than apratment buildings), whicle creating a pretty good residential density (not as dense as multi-unit apartment buildings, but not a sparse as single-family houses).

Duplexes also offered other features not always found in apartment buildings or rowhouses. The narrow open spaces between houses allowed for more windows for natural light and cross-ventialation (especially important during an era in which electricity and artificial ventialtion were in their infancy); this is why duplexes are not "connected" to their next-door neighbors. Duplexes also allowed for yards--although they were usually small, they were often used as vegetable gardens rather than play areas or decorative landscaping (whcih is what the many nerighborhood-based parks were for anyway). Duplexes also provided an important source of income--sometimes a second or third income source for families--because owners could live in one unit and rent out the second unit.

Duplexes like this are found in many cities and even small towns across the country--especially those that grew up during the industrial revolution. They may be pooh-poohed and/or misunderstood by sprawlburbanites, rural folk, or uppity urban elitists, but there is no doubt that such housing contributs a great deal of urbanity, density, and diversity to such cities, and make them what they are today.

How can anyone stand living like that?

Very easily.

Good info.

Yeah, rowhousing in Milwaukee is exceedingly rare. In Chicago, there's a relative abundance of it. Personally, I love rowhouses. They create great density because what you have is a 2-4 story consistent, unbroken wall, sometimes extending down the entire block.

http://www.ci.chi.il.us/Landmarks/images/landmarks/b/burling1a.jpg

http://www.ci.chi.il.us/Landmarks/images/landmarks/c/giles1a.gif

Markitect...you should be teaching a history course on Milwaukee at UWM or MATC. You know so much about everything here! :)

Get thee to a library...

That's all you really have to do.

Or take architecture, urban design/planning, and history classes at UWM.

Or do all of the above.

Then you can know so much about everything here.

So would you consider like everything that is in San Francisco "row houses." I didn't see anything in San Fran that had a yard of any sort when I was there.

So would you consider like everything that is in San Francisco "row houses." I didn't see anything in San Fran that had a yard of any sort when I was there.

If they are single units with multiple floors that share a wall with the next-door neighbor, then they'd be considered rowhouses. A yard, or lack of one, does not matter--rowhouses can have front and back yards, but no side yards or gaps between units.

Yeah, that's mostly what I meant. I really like Row Houses then. I think yards between houses are rather ugly. I like compactness.

Thanks for sharing those pictures, you're picture threads seem to always be the best. Please keep them coming.

Ah, I see, thanks for the explanation. I know the compactness is really popular in bigger cities but I don't like it much.

Remember, I don't live in a city, I just visit them semi-frequently. I love having a yard to play with a dog in, to kick people off from, to do things that make a lot of noise or not have to worry about having many close neighbors to see or hear me doing things some people wouldn't want me doing, then having privacy of other sorts(the mind can imagine).

I don't have a problem with the city just some of the aspects of the lifestyle, mostly relating to living arrangements. I like having a car, I like having a big yard to do things in. I like the thought of having a home I can change at the snap of a finger without answering to anyone; new siding, knock a wall down to expand a room, etc.

I guess at a city-related forum I should've said, "UGH I couldn't stand the lack of space and privacy." instead of downing the arrangements, which I wasn't trying to do.

I live in a townhouse condominium in a 4-unit building. The street I live is nothing but these buildings (7 in total). These are basically modern "rowhouses" that they decided to start calling townhomes about 20-25 years ago. So, I think I can relay some info here...

Ben,
If you're wondering why someone would choose such living arrangements:
1) It's cheaper than a standalone house, especially considering I have 2,000+ square feet. I paid $80,000 less than I would for a house in the same area.
2) I still have a garage.
3) I still have front and rear private-entrances.
4) I have a HUGE yard in the back (it's just shared). In fact, we have our own park.
5) We have a great sense of community.
6) It isn't as contributing to sprawl as standalone homes.
7) I feel safe, due to #5.
8) Sharing a wall isn't as noisy as you might think, it's NOT like an apartment. The structural work behind the walls is a little different (thicker, less noise).
9) No yard work. We're young professionals, and don't have time for it.

I could come up with more, but this is a good start.

^^I agree

old time rowhouses are much better than the vertical living ladder like maze of the modern townhome,
who came up with that nomenclature, ive never liked it,
im a yup, no not a typical sterile yuppie,
no time for yard work? yeah yard work is SO SO hard, i love when people complain of maintenance, its just a part of life, mowing the lawn is not a big deal, its not worh complaining about,
i feel that multiunit is always the way to go, sure you have tenants to answer to, but
i dont mind it, i have control over the entire zone of my place,
no committees to worry about or keeping everything nice and sterile like everyone else,
no extra bs fees,

Those who hate apartment buildings, three-deckers, & rowhouses should not be living in cities. These types of dense housing structures is a significant part of what makes cities really cities!

^^Well said

Those who hate apartment buildings, three-deckers, & rowhouses should not be living in cities. These types of dense housing structures is a significant part of what makes cities really cities!

OK, but Ben doesn't live in a city.

These unseen pics, that's what.
These are pics I was slow to post from my January trip to Milwaukee.

unseen is correct...all I see are red Xs

Wow, old thread. Funny thing is, I no longer live in that townhouse. I went and bought a big-ass house with a big-ass yard, and I love it. I still hate the idea of sprawl, but I sure do love my contribution to it.

Hahaha Jason... that's pretty damn funny.

Too bad it's such an old thread though, I'd sure love to see those pictures.

unseen is correct...all I see are red Xs

All I see are red Xs too. What gives with others seeing the pics?

All I see are red Xs too. What gives with others seeing the pics?
LOL, this is an old thread and Herodotus has dumped the pics. The thread was created in April 2005 not 2006, DOH! When I first saw this thread I saw April and took it for granted this was a new thread, maybe next time I'll make sure to check the day and year in each thread. Looks like you made the same mistake, good, at least I'm not the only one. :)

LOL, this is an old thread

Blame NaptownBoy.

I'll Just blame president Bush. He gets blamed for everything.

Blame NaptownBoy.

Congratulations. You have joined my hit list. ;)

LOL, this is an old thread and Herodotus has dumped the pics. The thread was created in April 2005 not 2006, DOH! When I first saw this thread I saw April and took it for granted this was a new thread, maybe next time I'll make sure to check the day and year in each thread. Looks like you made the same mistake, good, at least I'm not the only one. :)

I thought this was a new thread too... until I also see all of the Red X

I'll Just blame president Bush. He gets blamed for everything.

And rightly so.

Congratulations

Thanks! :runaway:

Wow, old thread. Funny thing is, I no longer live in that townhouse. I went and bought a big-ass house with a big-ass yard, and I love it. I still hate the idea of sprawl, but I sure do love my contribution to it.

hopefully you are kidding,

brand new sprawl housing is pukee,

hopefully you are kidding,

brand new sprawl housing is pukee,

I'm not. I bought a McMansion and I love it. You'd love it too if it was yours. Most people (not all) who say otherwise, are kidding themselves.

I'm not. I bought a McMansion and I love it. You'd love it too if it was yours. Most people (not all) who say otherwise, are kidding themselves.

no i wouldnt, i was raised in an old building, and i only like old buildings,
right now i live in a two flat 1913 brick, im on the first floor and i am renting out the second floor, and i have a nice sized back and side yard and a three car garage and nice patch of land used to grow vegetables
a family of 3-4 (if i chose to stay there indefinitely) could comfortably live in the 1100-1200 square feet on the first floor, plus i have a basement and attic i could improve,
i abhor sterile, new developments and houses,
i could live in a condo that was still vintage in an old building,
but i dont like it when they gut the place, which many times isnt called for, they are just catering to joe q public, or an old house also,

i think that americans live in houses that are way too big nowadays and are wasting agricultural land with their big box houses,

i would never live in a mcmansion unless someone was paying me a hefty salary to live in it, or it was a science experiment,

some people have to have brand new,
and look at old houses as used, which is ridiculous, houses arent like cars
brand new is okay, but too antiseptic for me.

^ To each his own.

I custom built my home to be EXACTLY how I wanted it. That's tough to do in an older home.

My point is, people that love to bitch about McMansions usually wouldn't really mind having one of their own, you're an exception.

My point is, people that love to bitch about McMansions usually wouldn't really mind having one of their own, you're an exception.

I would hate to live in a McMansion as well. The thought disgusts me. It would lead me to drink.... :cheers: more....

I hate urban sprawl and whatnot, and would prefer to live within walking distance from my job, but McMansions are definitely the most bang for their buck, in all their tree-less, vinyl goodness.

My point is, people that love to bitch about McMansions usually wouldn't really mind having one of their own.

i highly doubt this is true. most people who hate mcmansions hate them because of their soulless, "i live in bumble-fuck", qualities. my sister has got one up in lake county (about 45 miles from downtown chicago) and there is no way in hell i would ever want to live in a house or area like hers. in fact i often say that i would rather live in a card board box on lower wacker than her new house, and i'm being serious. she seems to like it well enough, but i would slit my wrists if i were forced to live out in mcmansionalnd. give me the city or give me death. it's not that i hate new things, i simply require a mixed-use walking neighborhood to be a happy person. i will never make the exuburban compromise for myself, because it goes against everything that i stand for and everything that i am about.

Well, I guess of all sites, this is one where few are like myself and find the benefits of living in a traditional suburban neighborhood (the quiet, space, air, security, parks, schools, bike paths/trails, etc.) with a family to exceed the benefits of living in the city.

I enjoy discussing the benefits of either lifestyle (burban or city) for various types of people, but find it exceptionally disgusting when anyone is unaccepting of someone elses. That's not what America is about. I'm not really saying that's you guys are doing, just that I don't like being hated for living where I'm comfortable.

Besides, isn't sprawl as much of a population control issue than it is an issue of people's values regarding land usage?

^I say to each his own, who gives a shit.

^I say to each his own, who gives a shit.


hey sprawl makes city living less crowded and cheaper
and traffic going from milwaukee to waukesha on 1-94 isnt that bad,

as long as you dont have a horrible commute with your sprawl living.....

however i personally wouldnt be able to live with myself knowing that i am contributing to the loss of US farmland, the developers dont take into account if the land is especially good agriculturally, and sprawl wouldnt be so bad if it atleast going by 1940's - 50's planning, houses should be smaller and yards smaller, and ofcourse some day hopefully not in my lifetime the dream of a single family house will be over because of excessive sprawl taking up too much land, we do have to leave land for food production

Congratulations. You have joined my hit list. ;)

I hope Clay Aiken is on that list.

I can't stand toothpick trees, rolled out sod lawns, lowered water tables, miles of black asphalt, poor drainage, and burms, burms, burms and more burms. '
Thanks a lot Levittown .

Well, I guess of all sites, this is one where few are like myself and find the benefits of living in a traditional suburban neighborhood
You are not alone Jason. I too live in the suburbs with that great big sprawling home. I love it. But also love the city and find myself drawn to it. I do love coming home to my green space and jumpin on my ryder for relaxation. I am thinking about purchasing a city condo for weekend getaways in downtown Milwaukee. Targeting the 3rd Ward.

I can't stand toothpick trees, rolled out sod lawns, lowered water tables, miles of black asphalt, poor drainage, and burms, burms, burms and more burms. '
Thanks a lot Levittown .


berms are an open acknowledgement that suburbanites find their own environment ugly to look at,

berms are eyesores totally and should be outlawed, if such an ugly environment is created you shouldnt be able to block it out :bash:

Actually many berms are for privacy. Privacy is one of the great benefits of the suburbs. So in a way people live in the suburbs BECAUSE they have berms. :)

OH! And... There is not a shortage of farmland... There are more farms producing more food then we could possibly consume in our country. That is why we ship so much over seas. If we did have a shortage, economics would kick in, it would be more profitable to be a farmer, land would cost more, and it would not be feasible to develope the land. Economics, it's a powerful thing.

Yeah, the whole suburban concept is pretty bland IMO. If a certain amount of people lived in suburbia it would be fine, but when everyone wants to live there (although they have every right to), problems arise (in terms of cities decaying).

You are not alone Jason. I too live in the suburbs with that great big sprawling home. I love it. But also love the city and find myself drawn to it. I do love coming home to my green space and jumpin on my ryder for relaxation. I am thinking about purchasing a city condo for weekend getaways in downtown Milwaukee. Targeting the 3rd Ward.

Cool, I'm glad I'm not alone. I'm in the exact same boat... being drawn to the city despite enjoying my surburban home. I too have been contemplating a second home (a condo) in a more densely populated area, but I'm thinking more along the lines of Las Vegas or anywhere else south of here. :)

jason and boatnurd, not to yell at you, but you love cities and then live a lifestyle that completely undermines everything a City is trying to do. The number one thing you can do for a City is move there and spend your money there. I hope you do buy that condo in the Third Ward, and that eventually you realize you don't need your house in the suburbs.

Living in the suburbs is about one thing, yourself. Living in the City is about something greater, the City.

Ok, I won't harp of this any longer.

2 or 3 times per night my daughter bugs me to go outside and play or whatever... so we walk out of the front door, the garage door, or either of my patio doors, and do exactly that, right there. The thought of compartmentalizing my family in a condo in the city makes me sick. Why should I take away that freedom? The freedom to just step outside and feel the grass under our feet.

I can't imagine too many of you have children.

Can we PLEASE drop this? To.each.their.own.

Can we PLEASE drop this? To.each.their.own.

OK MilwaukeeMark, the floor is yours. Our attention is now directed back to you. You start a topic or begin a freeflowing discussion. Remember, the thread is "What about Milwaukee....". Go.....

Haha, I'm not craving attention. I was just trying to calm people down a bit... Besides, this thread died a year ago. :)

Well, Boatnurd's not done yet. This past week there was an article about many Chicago families buying condo's downtown Milwaukee because they were less expensive and more accessible than those in ChicagoLand. These same couples own big homes in the Chicago subburbs. This is a trend and one if continued will help Milwaukee strive. We should be proud that these types of suburbanites want to continue buying and shopping in our great cities. It would be a great article to post as one of the families also have purchased a 30' boat which is kept at our marina. Very cool in my biased opinion.

I've got to say that I'm somewhere in the middle of this debate... which is strange, because I almost always have a strong opinion. While I would not want a home in the suburbs, I don't necessarily hold any sort of animosity toward people who do. In addition, why does it matter who's buying condos downtown? I completely agree with Boatnurd when he says that we should be proud that these people are buying homes here. If anything, it proves that suburbanites are slowly backing away from their well-established fear of the city. Kudos to both Boatnurd and Jason for not only being honest about their suburban life, but for recognizing and loving what cities have to offer. Just because you don't actually live in the city doesn't make you a city-nazi.

2 or 3 times per night my daughter bugs me to go outside and play or whatever... so we walk out of the front door, the garage door, or either of my patio doors, and do exactly that, right there. The thought of compartmentalizing my family in a condo in the city makes me sick. Why should I take away that freedom? The freedom to just step outside and feel the grass under our feet.

I can't imagine too many of you have children.

No i dont think this is necessarily a bad thing to talk about this, city versus suburb, house versus condo etc....
ofcourse to each his own, im not going to advocate that poor jason be ripped out of his suburban paradise/utopia against his will :),

but i also think that he is incorrect in saying that you cant have your kids playing outside in the city, thats why there are parks, you should live walking distance to a park for one thing and then your kid can play with other kids,
and you dont have to live in a condo, my duplex has a nice sized side yard and backyard, its probably not as large as yours, but its more interesting IMHO to me, i can also take my kid for a walk to brady street in ten minutes for a hotdog, or up to center street for a hookah smoke out (JK)
but sia chai just opened up and its about time the hood had a hookah place on center street.

i have a nice lawn right outside my duplex (2 flat), it totally awesome,
and i painted my picnic table green and yellow! and im not a packers fan!
it was realled a coincidence, cuz im a bears fan, but its nice to fit in :)

and thank god the fumes from my car dont enter my house!
, its much better having a detached garage IMHO! just doesnt seem right to me,
its okay and all an attached garage and a great way to get more square feet in a house without getting more property taxes...
I have a front door and a back door, the back door leads to the backyard and sideyard and the front door leads to my porch, where i could chill while my kid rides his bike up and down the street.

thats why i dont live in a condo,
and my kid wont be freaked when a black person walks down the street!

condos are okay, especially where it would be prohibitive to buy anything else and you are near a park or park system, like lincoln park or near downtown chicago, it wont always be affordable however to own your own house/2-3 flat in the city though.

2 or 3 times per night my daughter bugs me to go outside and play or whatever... so we walk out of the front door, the garage door, or either of my patio doors, and do exactly that, right there. The thought of compartmentalizing my family in a condo in the city makes me sick. Why should I take away that freedom? The freedom to just step outside and feel the grass under our feet.

I can't imagine too many of you have children.

You have to realize that the vast majority on this and that "other" forum are young and single. To add to that, 99% of the posters idealize urban living in the first place. So it's not really worth it to argue the advantages of suburban living here. I definetly agree with you though.

You have to realize that the vast majority on this and that "other" forum are young and single. To add to that, 99% of the posters idealize urban living in the first place. So it's not really worth it to argue the advantages of suburban living here. I definetly agree with you though.

I have one son, so yes i do have a kid,
and i see no reason why he needs to be raised in the burbs,
my parents pissed me off when they moved me there when i was 12
the burbs is bullshit, easy place for a teenager to get bored, especially when you are raised in the city

i love when people think its a given that kids have to be raised in the suburbs, total bs,
so yes its funny to think that most of us only like the city because we are young and single and thats the only reason why city living is viable, that is horseshit. the burbs is a great place to bore the hell out of your kids and shelter them,

lets then have a poll to see who has kids here and who doesnt
and who when they have kids will continue to reside in the city,
we could make a northamerican wide poll,

i will live in the city until i die, hopefully i wont need a nursing home
but i would like my nursing home to be in the city as well,
i guess if im demented you could ship me to phoenix cuz i wont know any better and its a great place for gomers

I contribute an extremely large amount of capital to city organizations and help fund some of the most notable city landmarks we all frequent. Many suburbanites like me do this for the love of a city and the people who get to use these facilities. It would be interesting to know what percentage is being performed in reverse. How many city dwellers are funding or donating large amounts of capital or gifts for a suburban initiative? It does happen, I have very generous friends who do this but the frequency I'll bet is much less. As stated earlier, many on the forum are very young and impressionable and have not yet experienced both worlds (suburbanites/city dwellers) for long periods of time. When they do, they will appreciate both sides equally because both sides have met their needs and desires. What is very cool is a forum like this to share what we all have in common, cities, and architecture.

I contribute an extremely large amount of capital to city organizations and help fund some of the most notable city landmarks we all frequent. Many suburbanites like me do this for the love of a city and the people who get to use these facilities. It would be interesting to know what percentage is being performed in reverse. How many city dwellers are funding or donating large amounts of capital or gifts for a suburban initiative? It does happen, I have very generous friends who do this but the frequency I'll bet is much less. As stated earlier, many on the forum are very young and impressionable and have not yet experienced both worlds (suburbanites/city dwellers) for long periods of time. When they do, they will appreciate both sides equally because both sides have met their needs and desires. What is very cool is a forum like this to share what we all have in common, cities, and architecture.

people who live in the City fund suburban initiatives all the time. It's called road and freeway building. all i'm saying is that if you aren't part of the solution, you are part of the problem. and living in the suburbs certainly isn't part of the solution. and who says you can't have a lawn and live in the City? I'm not saying everyone should live in condos. Better yet, you could have a giant park across the street from you where you live so you don't even have to mow the grass.

My pocket book is a big part of the solution. Roads and freeways are funded through state and federal initiatives. These initiatives are contributed equally by those who pay taxes. Many people make money but not all pay the same proportion of taxes. I use to live in the city but the tax burden made it cost prohibitive to continue. A $500K+ home in Milwaukee would be equal to purchasing and maintaining a $750-1mil home in the burbs with far more long-term-gain potential in the burbs. Milwaukee is tax hell. There is no dispute about it. Milwaukee ranks as one of the top ten taxed communities in the nation. Don't get me wrong, I love the city but my needs for an expensive home means not putting the tax money in the city pockets. Don't forget about the county retirement fraud and all of the waste that occurs. The waste also occurs in smaller outlying communities but not at the the rate Milwaukee has. I would rather write my $100K annual check to my favorite charities and or fund drives for large capital expansions on museum wings than pay that money to Milwaukee city taxes. My choice, and I am very fortunate to be able to make that choice. The groups I walk with in life think I am nuts for contributing that kind of money to the community, but I think it is money well spent because I decide where it goes and who gets it.

well i am definitely glad that you are generous in your contributions. however, milwaukee needs people paying property taxes more than anything. the schools need it, the police need it and the parks need it. it would be great if your property taxes were going to help those people who really need it...and you are an exception because you give money in other ways...but for the vast majority of suburbanites, they always ask what they can do to help the "inner city" and my response is move to Milwaukee. Delafield or Mequon or wherever doesn't need your property taxes, Milwaukee does.

Any while Milwaukee has one of the higher rates in the metro area, it isn't that much higher. the mill rate is like 23.? where most of the suburbs are around 21-22. That's not that big of a difference like everyone makes it out to be. plus, milwaukee and milwaukee county provide things like parks and museums that people from outside the county can use, in many cases for free. also, since almost all of the suburbs zone out affordable housing, milwaukee also has to take care of the majority of the region's below poverty population.

I'll stay put and bring my wallet with me to the city. I appreciate the good debate as always.

likewise. i wasn't trying to rip on you, but instead, your fellow suburbanites who never venture to the City and don't care about it.

likewise. i wasn't trying to rip on you...

Aww... let's all give each other hugs and eat some cookies.

What's with rowhouses? How can anyone stand living like that? I see that stuff in Racine and Milwaukee; I'm sure there is some in Kenosha I just haven't found it yet. Anyways Racine is fairly suburban due to it's location to Milwaukee though not an actual suburb; other landmark WI cities don't have these row houses.

Some rowhouses look nice but most don't, though they are big. Either way I would take most of them, they're just too damn close to neighbors. You have 3 square feet of yard space and that's it.

perhaps you'd like your mcmansion, while you ride your john deere on your 3 acre lot

perhaps you'd like your mcmansion, while you ride your john deere on your 3 acre lot
:applause:
The largest suburban lots can hold up to twenty rowhouses.