I can think of at least a dozen countries more deserving of that title. Compared to other nations, America is woefully behind.

Looking back to the 1800's, at a time when the States were divided over slavery, there was a civil war. No other developed nation had to go to war with itself to abolish slavery.

The Civil Rights movement of the 60's was more or less the same; by the 1960's the majority of western nations had already abolished racial segregation.

So America was far from being the pioneer many people like to think.

Fast forward to the twenty first century and America still struggles with rights issues. It wasn't until 2003 that America woke up and realized preventing consensual human beings from having intercourse was unconstitutional, something Canada and the UK figured out 40 YEARS AGO.

Then there's gay marriage, abortion, the role of religion in government... the list could go on. America is, as it was during the civil war, deeply divided on those issues. (Not that there's going to be a war, but if history has taught us anything... it's that liberals always win wink.gif)

While I'll admit other 1st world countries continue to have those problems, the impact religion has is minimal. In Britain at least, people seem to keep their religion and their politics separate.

So does America deserve to be called "The Land of the Free"?

Comapared to the majority of countries, yes... In the western world, no. It doesn't.

Of course America is the land of the free, but not the only one.

The United States can't be one country when you feel like it, and compared to the EU because "it's just so big!" whenever it works in your favor.

The south's economy was based on slavery, why would they allow themselves to have a great depression so easily? btw, slavery was outlawed in the other half of the nation for awhile.


The US gave birth to the Gay rights movement and the modern environmental movement, threw off the monarchy yokel, and was the land of the free for many years when Europe was awash in dictatorships, monarchies, and war.

This land of the free stuff mainly came from European refugees scambling to reach American shores btw. And we are still one of the best nations for immigrants.

What about abortion? We have abortion.


"Fast forward to the twenty first century and America still struggles with rights issues. It wasn't until 2003 that America woke up and realized preventing consensual human beings from having intercourse was unconstitutional, something Canada and the UK figured out 40 YEARS AGO."

anti-sodomy laws were never enforced for a long time.

I would certainly not put USA at the top for being a free land.

How is it not free now?

lou: the removing of the monarchy and the becoming a republic was about 1 thing only, not liberty nor taxation without representation... it was about greed.
They were eyeing the vast tracts of land that lay to the west of the original states and wanted to find a way of breaking the agreement the british empire had that said we wouldn't expand any further.
Getting rid of the british empire as the ruling nation allowed this, and so we had what went on to become the war of independance/american war (depending on where you are).

Personally, what with the laws being implemented and proposed by our governement I don't think we can keep calling our country a land of the free for very long either.

America is a great example of a country that uses language to create an unquestioning reality with it's population that it's democratic and therefore it's institutions neen no reform. Words like democratic, phrases like "land of the free" create a belief with the American population that they are the best country in the world and everyone else needs more of their system.

This view wouldn't be a problem, if America didn't decide to export it's political system on every country it's liberating at the moment. Take Afghanistan the views of the locals on the type of system they wanted was ignored and they were given the all powerful President system of government complete with American stooge.

Lou has just proved this point with the phrase "threw off the monarchy yokel", it's amazing how many americans think countries like the UK and Spain aren't democratic because we have a monarchy.

America doesn't own democracy and it doesn't own it's meaning, you can still be democratic and have intitutions that America doesn't have, in fact probably more so.

The only trully free areas of the globe right now are Canada and the EU.

America doesn't own democracy and it doesn't own it's meaning, you can still be democratic and have intitutions that America doesn't have, in fact probably more so.

:yes: Well said.

Of course America is the land of the free, but not the only one.

The United States can't be one country when you feel like it, and compared to the EU because "it's just so big!" whenever it works in your favor.

The south's economy was based on slavery, why would they allow themselves to have a great depression so easily? btw, slavery was outlawed in the other half of the nation for awhile.


The US gave birth to the Gay rights movement and the modern environmental movement, threw off the monarchy yokel, and was the land of the free for many years when Europe was awash in dictatorships, monarchies, and war.

This land of the free stuff mainly came from European refugees scambling to reach American shores btw. And we are still one of the best nations for immigrants.

What about abortion? We have abortion.


"Fast forward to the twenty first century and America still struggles with rights issues. It wasn't until 2003 that America woke up and realized preventing consensual human beings from having intercourse was unconstitutional, something Canada and the UK figured out 40 YEARS AGO."

anti-sodomy laws were never enforced for a long time.

"The gay rights movement arose in response to homophobic discrimination and prejudice against homosexuals. One of the first gay rights activists was Karl Heinrich Ulrichs, who lived in 1800s Germany. Ulrichs actively campaigned for the repeal of German anti-sodomy laws. The first mass gay rights activism movement was centered around Magnus Hirschfeld, Adolf Brand, Gustav Wyneken and Leontine Sagan, in pre-World War II Berlin, Germany." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_rights

as for the modern environmental movement, thoreau romanticising of nature and appeal for conservation derives from the european romantics of jean jacques rousseau or wordsworth who conceived of the countryside in a contemplative manner (rather than the practical, exploitative manner prior) as a peaceful place apart from industrialisation, and the countryside dwellers (the noble savages of north america and africa in rousseau's case) as leading a purer, primitive subsitance existence tied to the land. though it is true that the modern idea of organisations based around preservation principles did derive in north america, there had been anti-industrial and anti-pollution lobbies and even court cases in england before the modern ecological movement. in one such case a factory in yorkshire was closed because of the damage it was causing to the nearby countryside.

as for being a republic, i think you will find other nations got there before you did (including britain!) not that this is in-itself a sign of being a "land of the free"... i believe communist russia was rather anti-monarchy.

the trial leading to the ending in 2003 of Texas' state sodomy law was actually brought to court BECAUSE the law had been enacted, in 1998, arresting a gay couple for having sex. http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/06/26/scotus.sodomy/

"Thursday's ruling stemmed from the 1998 arrest of two Houston men, John Geddes Lawrence and Tyron Garner, under a 28-year-old Texas law making same-sex intercourse a crime. The court found that law and others like it violated the due process clause of the 14th Amendment."

America is A land of the free, but not the only one and not even the most pre-eminent one.

"the trial leading to the ending in 2003 of Texas' state sodomy law was actually brought to court BECAUSE the law had been enacted, in 1998, arresting a gay couple for having sex. http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/06/26/scotus.sodomy/"


That arrest gave national attention to a law that was struck down by the Supreme Court immediately because of it's ridiculous nature. It only took the US so long because it was never enforced or enacted for a long time. Many states already dicriminalized sodomy, but what happened in conservative Texas gave way for federal involvement of the subject.

Before that, it was ignored like one of those antiquated laws where you can't put ice cream on top of peach pie in Ohio.


For some reason I thought the gay rights movement started in the US, because some European forumer made a parallel with New York's Stonewall incident with what was hapenning to his country.



"though it is true that the modern idea of organisations based around preservation principles did derive in north america, there had been anti-industrial and anti-pollution lobbies and even court cases in england before the modern ecological movement. in one such case a factory in yorkshire was closed because of the damage it was causing to the nearby countryside."

This is what I was thinking of. Not the romantic idyllic aspect, but where a large movement demanded legal action to control pollution starting with Racheal Carson's Silent Spring and DDT. I leave you and others to contemplate its importance. :lol: jk.


Again, this 'land of the free' marlarky mainly stems from gossip, village chit chat of European immigrants trying to reach the US because of famine, war, despotism, etc.

well, Nixon abused power and had to resign; proof of the vitality of the US democracy. I don't think the US are undemocratic. It's just a chronic republican flu.

I think that we use too many catchy frases here, like "liberty," and "freedom," to the point where I think they have lost meaning. Why the hell else would the scourge of the earth, the right wing of the Republican party, insult the meaning of the word "freedom," an ideal over which much blood has been spilled, to rename ketchup-covered French fries?

However, that being said, I think that you guys are being a wee bit simplistic. Take gay rights. New York took sodomy laws off its books a while back, which is not surprising given that New York is liberal. The opposite for Texas. Massachusetts has legalized gay marriage, something that Texas in my opinion is light years away from doing. The United States is a very large country where there is MUCH autonomy at the state level. As a liberal, I'd like to think that the states that are more Democrat-controlled meet the ideal of "land of the free" better than Republican ones. This is a personal opinion, though, and I very much disagree with the stereotype of my Republican controlled country being labeled as unfree.

The only trully free areas of the globe right now are Canada and the EU.

Thats a laugh, I can't speak for Canada but as a European I find that both the nation-state and the EU are very much in the authoritarian camp here.

ehh...the only difference between the US and other free nations is that we (as americans) are led to believe that we are unique in being free and also we use buzzards like "freedom" and "liberty" ad nauseam.

when i was in london, i didn't feel any free-er there especially since there were 80,000 surveillance cameras spying on you at any given time.

ehh...the only difference between the US and other free nations is that we (as americans) are led to believe that we are unique in being free and also we use buzzards like "freedom" and "liberty" ad nauseam.


Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't a buzzard some sort of bird? Yes I'm sure it is!! So you're saying over there in America there are birds called 'freedom' and 'liberty'? Do these buzzards appear on TV? Is it just buzzards you use, can you use chickens and ducks? And finally, why do they cause nausea when you use them?

here's a buzzard:
http://img171.echo.cx/img171/8277/buzzard4tb.png

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't a buzzard some sort of bird? Yes I'm sure it is!! So you're saying over there in America there are birds called 'freedom' and 'liberty'? Do these buzzards appear on TV? Is it just buzzards you use, can you use chickens and ducks? And finally, why do they cause nausea when you use them?

here's a buzzard:
http://img171.echo.cx/img171/8277/buzzard4tb.png

why? well i think buzzards such as "liberty" and "freedom" are overcooked.

Originally posted by Medo,ra,me,so,fa,la,te,do and jonnyboy
http://img171.echo.cx/img171/8277/buzzard4tb.png

That's a quality picture of a buzzard.

Indeed it is, it's so good that I adopted it for my avatar. :)

I don't think the US are undemocratic. It's just a chronic republican flu.

Well, that flu will be over in 2008, and the lyrics of the Star Spangled Banner that underlies the title of this thread was written a long time ago. No point in dissecting the text more than a century later.

Unless you gents think it should be rephrased, of course. :D

The only trully free areas of the globe right now are Canada and the EU.

Thats a laugh, I can't speak for Canada but as a European I find that both the nation-state and the EU are very much in the authoritarian camp here.

Well, that's only because you seem to be as paranoid as most Americans.

I feel totally free; even if I have to carry an ID and show it to a police officer if he requests me to do so. That does not, in the least bit, threaten my liberties.

Americans are more free from taxes. :)

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't a buzzard some sort of bird? Yes I'm sure it is!! So you're saying over there in America there are birds called 'freedom' and 'liberty'? Do these buzzards appear on TV? Is it just buzzards you use, can you use chickens and ducks? And finally, why do they cause nausea when you use them?

here's a buzzard:
http://img171.echo.cx/img171/8277/buzzard4tb.png


haha...it was late when i wrote that. buzz words, buzzards, what's the difference.

http://www.londonstimes.us/toons/cartoons/richdiesslin_buzzard.gif

Those are vultures :)

Where's your quote from google backing THAT one up eh Riggers?

Originally posted by Rigadon
Those are vultures

The terms are interchangeable here...where I live at least...right or wrong...that's what we call them.

http://www.jeremiahstokely.com/Birds%20Buzzard.JPG

The Turkey Vulture, also called a Buzzard, is a large brownish-black bird with a featherless, bright red head and neck. The undersides of its wings are light-colored. It is rarely seen perched, but often seen gliding and soaring. Vultures make flying look like a lot of fun.

Vultures often circle high over a woods or cruise above interstate highways. They do not kill their own prey, but feed entirely on carrion (dead meat). They are protected by law in many states because of their scavenger role in the ecosystem. They clean up messes that would otherwise invite disease. The old belief that vultures spread diseases has been disproved.

The Turkey Vulture’s range extends from southern Canada to the Falkland Islands and the Strait of Magellan in South America. Hinckley, OH is known as the Vulture Capital of the U.S. because each fall thousands of Vultures gather there before migrating south for the winter. Isn’t that creepy?

Taken from : http://www.jeremiahstokely.com/turkey_vulture.htm

SEE! I CAN WHORE GOOGLE TOO!

http://www.ig.utexas.edu/people/staff/lisa/images/041113_buzzards_L_Buchanan_1_sm.jpg

http://www.marshallart.com/carts/Buzzards.jpeg

It not my fault Americans can't speak properly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Buzzard

I only recently found out that a biscuit in the US appears to be a scone eat with gravy

scones are sweet, biscuits arn't.

Argh
Some americans seem to think this is a scone

http://i.xanga.com/ettlrivka/scone%20close%20up.JPG

Looks more like a poor attempt at a rock cake to me- look at all the sugar on the top

I think you Brits are wrong with the scones, becuase ^ my friend IS a scone! :D

Argh
Some americans seem to think this is a scone

http://i.xanga.com/ettlrivka/scone%20close%20up.JPG

Looks more like a poor attempt at a rock cake to me- look at all the sugar on the top

i know what a real english scone looks and tastes like, after all i did have tea and scones in oxford with some author.

Americans are more free from taxes. :)

Federal income tax rates in the US are generally equal to or higher than western European countries. This is compounded when you also factor in those states which also tax income, as well as local income taxes.

Income tax reliefs in the US are generally more widespread than in Europe. Reliefs are still available for being married and relief is available on mortgage interest and property taxes, for example.

The UK has among some of the lowest corporation tax rates in the world.

The US tends to tax more types of income than Europe and particularly moreso than the UK. For example, the UK doesn't tax gaming & lottery winnings, nor does it apply CGT to the sale of a principal residence. The US has a tax-free threshold to the sale of a principal residence, over which it is taxed at the prevailing marginal rate.

The US has very few capital tax reliefs compared with the UK & Europe - there is no taper relief, no venture capital relief, no enterprise investment relief in the US. In addition, being a non-domiciliary has no tax advantages in this regard in the US either, unlike the UK.

The US will tax artificial exchange-rate gains on foreign mortgage redemptions - the only country that does so.

The US requires you to file a tax return and be subject to tax on worldwide income based on citizenship, not residency. The only other country that does this is Poland.

US indirect tax rates (eg sales tax) tend to be a good deal lower than the EU's VAT rates.

US social security rates are slightly lower than the UK, however you still have to pay into a private health care scheme as well.

Some areas of the US (eg Pittsburgh) have very high local taxes to pay for local school funding. New York state also has very high excise duties for certain items such as vehicle registration.

i know what a real english scone looks and tastes like, after all i did have tea and scones in oxford with some author.

The comment wasn't directed at you jmanny- I’m sure your baking knowledge is impeccable :)