>>>Best North Korea Selection – May 2004, Day 3&4

Following on from Day 1&2 (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=200581&page=1&pp=20), here’s Day 3&4. Again, I’ve included captions below the pictures and translations of the propaganda in pics 82,86,98 and 102 would be appreciated. Enjoy.

Day Three

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Perhaps ‘The Grinning Leader’ would have been a better name for Kim Il-Sung instead of ‘The Great Leader’.

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Me in front of the Great Leader’s birthplace at Mangyeongdae, the ‘cradle of the revolution’. Although he apparently spent his childhood here, it’s obviously a replica of the original and you might actually question its authenticity entirely bearing in mind the regularity with which the discovery of new locations relating to his life are made (presumably to add more interest to propaganda that reports the same news everyday.)

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As with all ‘historically significant’ Kim Il-Sung locations the hordes descend en masse everyday to pay their respect. Here comes an army battalion.

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‘All aboard!’ Our tour bus, complete with Sony Betamax video player and mini chandeliers. One day the Korean tour guides decided to play an animal fighting video showing animals being mauled and mutilated for our entertainment, but they were forced (much to their bewilderment) to switch it off after ten minutes because of strong protest from most of the tour group. Much to my disappointment, I never did find out whether that antelope beat the ten tigers that had encircled it…

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Another of our tour guides, Mr Li (no relation to the other tour guide, Miss Li), was keen to show us the cutting edge technology employed in the Pyongyang subway system. Press the station button below and, hey presto, its location on the map is indicated by a light!

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The magnificent Puhung Station interior.

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The city’s subway trains were purchased from East Germany in the 1980s and are home to probably the only examples of graffiti to be found in the DPRK, where East Germans engraved their names all over the windows.

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Marble pillars and subway train at Yonggwang Station.

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The world’s deepest subway at over 100m underground, the Pyongyang Metro doubles as a massive air raid shelter network. It’s also possibly the only subway system in the world where there’s an absence of groin-damaging deterrents to stop people sliding down the escalators, which I think is a good indication of how ordered North Korean society is.

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Of course no public place would be complete without some Kim Il-Sung imagery. Here the grinning workers unite for the good of the nation.

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A ‘Subway Girl’ in front of the 24m x 4m ‘A Morning of Innovation’ mural at Puhung Station. If the best looking women become Tour Guides and the second-best looking become Traffic Girls, I have no idea what ranking of appearance you need to become a Subway Girl…

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A nice ideological reminder outside Yonggwang Station.

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Downtown Pyongyang street scene outside Yonggwang Station. The trams have star ratings on the side to indicate how many kilometres they have travelled without crashing and stars are removed after every accident. Most of them have a rating of 8-10plus but we did see one which had had all its stars removed.

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Changwang Street, where our hotel was located. Known as Restaurant Street, this area takes the Communist idea of propaganda department stores (full of old items nobody can buy) to another dimension with its propaganda restaurants. There were around 10 restaurants, all brightly illuminated (though curiously lacking in patrons) until around 10pm when they closed; apparently the restaurants have no menus, only serving what they can get their hands on (though since their purpose is predominantly to show Pyongyang citizens how affluent the DPRK is, as opposed to the enjoyment of cuisine, it’s probably not such a big problem.)

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This is actually one of Pyongyang’s main streets, though you wouldn’t guess from the amount of traffic on the road. This time it’s the evening ‘rush hour’.

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‘It’s grim up north.’ I heard that until as late as the 1970s, North Korea had more money than the South (rivals China and the USSR provided a constant source of finance, as well as a guaranteed marketplace for the DPRKs shoddy exports, in their attempts to influence Kim Il-Sung’s loyalties); In the 1990s however, after Communism collapsed in the USSR and China embraced a more market-driven economy, the DPRK’s cash flow dried up and the nation was crippled by the floods, famine and collapse of its economy that still affect its citizens today

In stark contrast to Japan, the ultimate ‘throwaway society’ (where you never see cars more than 5 years old on the road*, and where its cheaper to buy new electronics than have old items repaired), North Korea is a ‘make do and mend’ society where nothing is upgraded, repainted, repaired or renewed until its totally deteriorated/broken and useless. Even though Pyongyang compares favourably to Beijing in terms of cleanliness and orderliness, there’s no concealing the fact that the place is falling apart.

*Japan’s cars are amongst the nations many old and unwanted exports (including bicycles, refrigerators, microwaves and TVs) that end up in North Korea, China and Russia because they are regarded as worthless by Japanese citizens.

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One of a handful of billboards which recently appeared in Pyongyang, marking the debut of North Korea’s first ever commercials. Although it’s for Fiat cars, they can only be bought by work groups and not by individuals as personal car ownership contradicts Communist ideals.

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The Okryu Bridge, one of the main bridges over Pyongyang’s Taedong River.

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This closer shot of the Okryu Bridge is further testament to how little traffic there is around.

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The first American military vessel to be captured by enemy forces since the USS Wake (PR-3) was captured by Japanese forces in 1941, the USS Pueblo was apparently the subject of an all-out assault involving Mig fighters, subs and gunships but the North Koreans claim it was captured by one gunboat. As you can probably imagine it’s quite a trophy, but probably the most interesting thing is the fact that it was captured on the east coast and transported overland to Pyongyang in the west. Check out Wikipedia.org (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Pueblo ) and USS Pueblo.org (http://www.usspueblo.org/) for more info.

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Our guide at the USS Pueblo, one of the many girls in uniform that make the DPRK the top holiday destination for cosplay fans.

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After being taken round the boat, the tour of the USS Pueblo was concluded with the viewing of an unintentionally hysterical propaganda video condemning the ‘American Impurialists’ (the narrator’s poor English pronunciation coupled with his bizarre Lord Haw-haw-esque English aristocratic accent provided ample mirth.)

The video’s credibility was unfortunately further blown by its heavy-handed assertions about the US’s role in the Korean War and the dubbing of the captured crew members’ English-language testimony into pro-DPRK English (with English accents) which was blatantly phoney – the video’s claims that the crewmen happily repudiated the US government are disproved by this great pic I found on the Net which shows the crewmen discreetly giving their captors ‘the bird.’
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Following the capture of the USS Pueblo in January 1968, the North Korean authorities forced false confessions out of the crew and insisted that the US government apologise for their espionage activities, as you can see here.

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North Korean tourists wait to board the USS Pueblo to hear about crimes committed by the American infidel. Out of shot to the right of the group was a big pile of this group’s belongings where they’d been told to leave handbags and possessions unattended, further illustrating how ordered North Korean society is (I’m sure life imprisonment or execution is sufficient incentive for good behaviour.) In stark contrast to the average group of Japanese tourists, note the total absence of cameras.

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Our guide for the visit to the Museum of the Korean Revolution in front of…guess who?

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The Museum of the Korean Revolution was another chance to force a cack-handed account of Korean history down our throats. The first day of the tour was relatively propaganda-free (instead focusing on the almost hedonistic participation in May Day celebrations, largely fuelled by soju rice liquor), while the daytrip to Panmunjeom on the second day was surprisingly lacking in the kind of political rhetoric that dominates tours of Panmunjeom from the South Korean side of the DMZ. On the third day though, we were hit with an all-out bullsh*t blitz.

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Kim Il-Sung giving ‘on-the-spot guidance’ to North Korean generals during the Korean War. During the tour group’s frequent perusal of propaganda (i.e. all) literature in the DPRK, we were amused to find excessive reference to the Kims’ ability to provide so-called ‘on-the-spot guidance’, also known as ‘field guidance’. These references to their almost superhuman feats included the ability to advise complete revisions in practice/strategy/attitude etc in everything from ballet to heavy industry which resulted in vast improvements – only to be expected though, from the two men credited with writing the majority of the books in the library of the Grand People’s Study House! I guess it’s one of those ‘you had to be there’ jokes, as it’s probably impossible for people to imagine the earnestness and absurdity of such statements without seeing them in context.

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‘Aw, shucks Dad’. The International Kim Il-Sung prize goes to (surprise, surprise) his son, Kim Jong-Il. Not that I’m suggesting any bias on behalf of the judges of course. Perhaps winner of the World’s Cheesiest Grin award would have been a more appropriate accolade however.

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The stamp shop on Restaurant Street, fascinating even for non-philatelists on account of its selection of stamps bearing propaganda messages.

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Every possible opportunity is taken by the government to reinforce the dominant ideology by ‘unobtrusively’ exposing people to it in their everyday lives. In addition to government-controlled media such as TV, radio and newspapers, stamps are an ideal way to convey messages such as anti-US/Japanese sentiments, as these examples illustrate. Unfortunately you can’t see it clearly enough here but the middle right stamp depicts Richard Nixon (upside down) but the likeness is actually the spitting image of George W Bush (although it has the issue date of 1969 on it).

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Japanese Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi meeting North Korean leader Kim Jong-Il in 2002. I wanted both of these stamps, but the top one was cheaper and better so I decided to buy only that one. When I handed over a 2 Euro coin to cover the 1.2 Euro price tag however, there was no small change in the cash register so I was offered the bottom stamp to cover the 80 Cent change, despite the stamp’s 1.6 Euro price tag.

This exchange was fairly typical of purchases made within the framework of this fledgling Communist tourist industry, which appeared to be ill-equipped to take money from foreigners desperate to offload cash at every given opportunity. At a very basic level, this inadequacy (of course only to be expected from a country yet to embrace Capitalism like neighbouring China) manifested itself in the form of absence of opportunities to buy soft drinks/snacks at tourist locations where our tour group (as well as the scores of Chinese tourists) was visiting. However, the best example of this was in the hotel bar, where change was often given not in the form of coins but in the form packets of Wrigley’s Double Mint gum!

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Propaganda posters make great souvenirs.

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View of Pyongyang from the Children’s Palace, with Pyongyang Grand Theatre in foreground. Only North Korean films are shown here, and like the other media I suspect there’s endless repetition of the same old themes, such as workers uniting for the good of the nation, the threat of evil American ‘Impurialists’, and the greatness of Kim Il-Sung.

Note the cranes dotted along the skyline; I saw quite a lot of cranes in Pyongyang, but from a distance so I couldn’t tell whether new buildings were being constructed or whether they’d just run out of cash and couldn’t take them down, as is the case with the aforementioned Ryugyong Hotel

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Statue of Kim Il-Sung posing with schoolkids outside the Children’s Palace. Perhaps as a result of Japanese colonialism, there’s a big emphasis on after-school club activities in North Korea (as there is in Japan and former colonies South Korea and Taiwan) and the country’s most talented and promising school kids are selected to join the Children’s Palace, a kind of elite academy which assists the propaganda machine. Most foreign tourists visiting Pyongyang are brought here, and we were shown talented child musicians, artists, writers and the next generation of computer hackers before being treated to an amazingly choreographed music, dance and acrobatics performance.

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Duck bulgogi 'food porn'. Bulgogi translates as ‘fire meat’ and is known in Japan as yaki niku, or barbecued meat to the English-speaking world. Wrapped in lettuce leaves and dipped in sauce containing sesame, garlic, chilli and/or bean paste, bulgogi is a popular dish served throughout the Korean peninsular (and all over Japan, though minus the lettuce). This duck bulgogi was well nice, and was accompanied by an alcoholic blur involving the majority of the group snorting soju (rice spirits) and a bout of impromptu sumo wrestling between Iain of Canada and Lars of Sweden which involved them knocking into meal tables as the restaurant staff grinned nervously. As with the tour group, I’m sure the evening left a lasting impression with the staff as it can’t be too often that they have the ‘opportunity’ to watch two half-naked foreigners attacking each other with their beer guts.

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Double trouble. Posing with nasty beer and vile soju.

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Two bottles of filthy Chinese beer left over from the first leg of the train journey to Pyongyang, Five Star All Malt Beer and Bull Beer. One of my lasting impressions of my first (albeit brief and limited) trip to China was that the beer and rice were served at the same temperature. The rice was cold by Japanese standards and the beer was warm (even by English standards), though even chilling these two bad boys did little to disguise the rank flavour resulting from the excessive amount of rice used to brew them.

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Despite the rancid nature of the remaining Chinese tipple, the beers were nevertheless consumed before heading down to the Pyongyang Koryo Hotel’s basement karaoke bar for a last night leaving bash.

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The interior of the karaoke bar. There were actually about 40 people in the bar when I took this photo, but unsurprisingly the dance floor was empty.

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A few last-minute snaps to try and document just how kitsch and outdated the Pyongyang Koryo Hotel actually is, although I don’t think photography does it justice. Here’s the lounge area in the bedroom suite, with the type of carpet you only find in grandparents’ houses these days. For all the North Koreans’ hatred of Japan, interestingly the hotel was replete with Japanese products and fittings: lights by National, elevators and TVs by Hitachi, toilet/bathroom facilities by Toto etc.

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The delightful dining room, noteworthy for its intriguing light fittings and flower paintings depicting the Great Leader and Dear Leader’s very own flowers, the kimilsungia and kimjongilia varieties of orchid. An interesting account of the history of North Korean petal propaganda can be found at Hankooki.com (http://times.hankooki.com/lpage/special/200403/kt2004031817112027130.htm)

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A shot of part of the hotel lobby, where I appear to have unwittingly snapped Kim Jong-Il strolling in to survey this small part of his Communist utopia.

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Mmmm, mirrors… The second floor of the lobby, home to a book shop, bars and a lot of mirrors.

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Another mural depicting Mt Paektu, the ‘spiritual birthplace of the revolution.’

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Entertainment for foreign tourists. In Japan pachinko is a hugely popular variant of pinball as it’s the only ‘legal’ form of gambling apart from lotteries and horse racing (as it conveniently exploits several loopholes in the law.) I bet these Western Hero pachinko machines were ‘all the rage’ when the Pyongyang Koryo Hotel was opened in 1985. However, it doesn’t look like anybody’s played them since (if ever at all).

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Some more cobweb-gathering entertainment.

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The hotel souvenir shop – the closest thing to a supermarket that we experienced in North Korea, though ‘inconvenience store’ would be a more appropriate moniker. In a typical example of the Communist ideal of creating jobs for everyone, making a purchase involves 3 staff: First you select what you want to buy from the shelves (prices are shown in Euros) and take them to the counter, where Girl 1 writes a ticket for every item. Take the tickets to Girl 2 in another part of the shop and she takes your Euro, coverts them into North Korean Won, gives you change in whatever currency they have some coins for (usually Yen, Dollars or Euro though sometimes a mixture of more than one currency) and writes another set of tickets for your goods. Find Girl 3 and exchange Won and tickets for another set of handwritten tickets for each item. Finally, return to Girl 1 with these tickets and exchange them for the items you purchased. Total transaction time, 5-15mins depending on the number of other customers in the store!

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The ‘latest’ consumer goods available to those with hard currency, in what basically amounts to a classic example of the Communist propaganda department store. Unfortunately we were told by our Korean guides that there wasn’t enough time to visit Pyongyang’s finest (propaganda) department store, although from what I’ve read, this souvenir shop illustrates the same sentiments – outdated merchandise that nobody wants or needs made to look like it represents some kind of consumer paradise.

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Amazing! Quite why anybody staying in a 4-star luxury hotel would need a 6lb,70z/2.920kg tin of tomato sauce is beyond me. As with the sizeable array of Russian medicine for sale, I suspect it was probably taken from an aid package.

Day Four

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The Pyongyang Airport Duty Free Shop, another place apparently frozen in time.

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After failing to bribe customs officials with packs of Marlboro Red, persistent nagging paid off and we finally managed to get our passports stamped. North Korean customs are notoriously reluctant to stamp passports, apparently because of prejudice faced by those in possession of a North Korean stamp in their passport at US airports though probably simply just in keeping with the low profile the DPRK seems to favour with all international relations. My stamp earned me an extra thorough once-over from Japanese customs officials at KIX (in a private room, though thankfully not involving rubber gloves) whose attitude noticeably changed upon learning I’d come from Pyongyang, going from suspecting me of drug smuggling (as usual, since I’m a foreign male travelling on my own and must be up to no good) to thinking I was a shoe bomber/biological weapons smuggler.

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Air Koryo’s finest, a 30-year old Soviet Ilyushin Il-62M. In dire need of a refit (TV monitors or headphones would be nice), it has endearing features such as the seats (which fall forward when touched from behind) and the overhead luggage stowage (actually just a rack, like on a bus or train) which allows luggage to fall down whenever the plane encounters turbulence. Needless to say, I was elated when we touched down safely at Beijing Capital Airport. Any plane spotters out there can check out Air Koryo’s full fleet at Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?airlinesearch=Air%20Koryo&distinct_entry=true)

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Fortunately I didn’t have to spoil this quaint reminder of my ‘thrilling’ experience with Air Koryo by depositing my ‘refuses’ in it, despite having a spot of food poisoning from the undercooked duck bulgogi which derailed my Beijing sightseeing plans. Still, after the intensity of the North Korean tour (out of the hotel 10-12 hours a day and covering a lot of ground) a day in bed was actually welcomed.

My god. How terribly fascinating, awe-some, and just plain creepy.

Question: are people at all aware of the world outside... did you get the impression that people would perhaps notice your clothes or electronic gadgets with curiosity?

Second: How much of the time did you get to see the lives of ordinary people? With those shops... was anyone ever buying something who wasn't a tourist?... I imagine Pyongyang-ers have to go to the store once in a while...

"My god. How terribly fascinating, awe-some, and just plain creepy."

I concur.

This must be the world's best traffic
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Local residents have their own stores to go to, and tourists are not allowed to visit them. Nick, can you confirm that?

I still don't get the "For your refuses" thing... is that for vomit, donations or complaints? Dr. Nick, this is an amazing collection. Great job!

I still don't get the "For your refuses" thing... is that for vomit, donations or complaints? Dr. Nick, this is an amazing collection. Great job!

I'm sure donations would be welcome, to help keep Air Koryo's fleet of rust-buckets in the sky.

i can't imagine the daily life in North Korea luckily i don't have to live there.

Local residents have their own stores to go to, and tourists are not allowed to visit them. Nick, can you confirm that?

The locals don't have access to hard currency so the stuff available for tourists would probably cost a month's wages. Due to the haphazard nature of DPRK tourism our tour group was unable to visit Pyongyang's best department store (which exists solely for propaganda purposes), but some foreign visitors to North Korea get to check it out (though I suspect this is the only opportunity to visit a shop for locals, and since it's full of stuff nobody can buy, it doesn't really count.)

Question: are people at all aware of the world outside... did you get the impression that people would perhaps notice your clothes or electronic gadgets with curiosity?

People aren't aware of the world outside, as what the media shows them is so limited. Naturally they regard foreigners and their strange gadgets with great curiosity, but this is coupled with real friendliness.

How much of the time did you get to see the lives of ordinary people? With those shops... was anyone ever buying something who wasn't a tourist?... I imagine Pyongyang-ers have to go to the store once in a while...

The closest we came to seeing the 'real lives' of the locals was during the train journey to Pyongyang and during the May Day celebrations, as you can see in the pics from Day 1&2 of the tour. I don't think we ever actually saw the locals buying anything though.

That was just awesome. Thank you very much for the whole tour :bow:

Oh my god, that is fascinating! I really enjoyed your posts, some of the comments made me laugh really hard :D
It's a very interesting place, kinda like going back in time, reminds me of the late 80s in the Soviet Union, only much more run down. Nevertheless, if I was offered a trip to North Korea I'd have to refuse it, don't want to take that risk.

It's a very interesting place, kinda like going back in time, reminds me of the late 80s in the Soviet Union, only much more run down. Nevertheless, if I was offered a trip to North Korea I'd have to refuse it, don't want to take that risk.

What risk? It's probably the safest country on earth for foreign tourists.

This is the sort of stuff that keeps me coming back to SSC day in, day out. Where else could you see such a well crafted thread on North Korea?

Thanks for the tour.

Great pics. I always find it a strange experience to see pics of others who have been in the DPRK, because all tourists see exactly the same spots; some pics just look like copies from mine. ;)

You went with a large group, right? I usually don't like tour groups, but I can see it being an advantage in North-Korea. We were just two, constantly guided by two guides and a driver... that made me feel rather claustrofobic. ;)

Great pics. I always find it a strange experience to see pics of others who have been in the DPRK, because all tourists see exactly the same spots; some pics just look like copies from mine. ;)

Yes, it does feel strange doesn't it. If you do an image search on Google or something like that there's very little available on the Net that you didn't see already on the tour.

You went with a large group, right? I usually don't like tour groups, but I can see it being an advantage in North-Korea. We were just two, constantly guided by two guides and a driver... that made me feel rather claustrofobic. ;)

Sounds intense going with only one other tourist. As you say, I'm not usually into package tours but it is an advantage going to North Korea with a bunch of people, though I was still glad to return to the 'real world' after four days as it's pretty intense no matter how many people you go with.

A great thread, thanks for sharing- it was really interesting. :)

Amazing! You are definitely an asset to this website!

Sounds intense going with only one other tourist. As you say, I'm not usually into package tours but it is an advantage going to North Korea with a bunch of people, though I was still glad to return to the 'real world' after four days as it's pretty intense no matter how many people you go with.

Yeah, even though you know they won't harm rich tourists, it still feels a bit eery, doesn't it? Returning into China really felt like returning into freedom, even though China also isn't exactly the heaven of freedom.

amazing job :applause:

A question not rarely asked: How much does it really cost to undertake the trip to DPRK, as I'm guessing it's a standard package. So I wonder; what was the full cost of the trip, starting form Beijing, that is. Preferably in a well known currency, thanks :)

A question not rarely asked: How much does it really cost to undertake the trip to DPRK, as I'm guessing it's a standard package. So I wonder; what was the full cost of the trip, starting form Beijing, that is. Preferably in a well known currency, thanks :)

This is the information about this year's version of the tour I went on:

Tour 4.1) April 30th - May 5th MAY DAY short tour (Sat - Wed/Thurs)
Also visiting DPRK for the May Day celebrations as outlined above, taking in the sights of Pyongyang with an overnight stay in Kaesong. This tour will visit the same places as the long tour with the exception of the trip to the mountains.
Flight in and Train/Plane (you choose) out, 4 nights, plus one on the train for those taking that option.

Price: 1390 Euros

Check out Koryo Tours (http://www.koryogroup.com/tours/index.html) for information on this and other types of tour. I think this one is the cheapest as it's the shortest, and the cost included transport Beijing-Pyongyang, accommodation and meals so the only spending money I needed was for beer in the hotel bar at night time.

^ Thanks! :) I'll try to visit someday before capitalism gets too widespread over there. DPRK and Belarus must be the only places left where you can revisit communism. :cheers:

I found this great website about North Korea:

NK Zone (http://www.nkzone.org/nkzone/)
Nice :) Did you tell them about it or did they find it themselves?

DPRK and Belarus must be the only places left where you can revisit communism.

Communism in Belarus? Not really. A dictator-style leader indeed, and many things carried over from the communist period, but when you walk in the streets it feels more like a western state.

Of course China is still communist, but that doesn't really show in their cities anymore. ;) You could also go to Cuba...

^ Thanks! :) I'll try to visit someday before capitalism gets too widespread over there. DPRK and Belarus must be the only places left where you can revisit communism. :cheers:

Cuba and Turkmenistan are supposed to be the only other remaining Communist countries where there's an overpowering 'cult of personality' of the leader. Cuba's is well documented, but info on Turkmenistan is a little harder to come by. In the past I've read quite a few good articles at BBC News (http://news.bbc.co.uk) which has its own search engine if you're interested.

Nice :) Did you tell them about it or did they find it themselves?

They found my thread first and got in touch.

Outrageous and wonderful!
This is simply an endurance of what our comrades in Russia,China,DDR,Vietnam...have experienced not so long ago...less or more dictated.

I wonder if there is any corruption in the DPRK cos if there is,someone will probably get rich but communist regime don't wanna see any individualist wealth....hmmm....

Btw,North Korea has a beautiful natural heritage....somehow more interesting than in the South.

Thnks again for the good work and those hilarious comments,Nick.

Cuba is not that bad. Cubans are not "little-minded" as north-koreans are. Cubans know reality, they have many parents living in Florida :ohno: , but still. They do know about the world and stuff. You guys don't know that what really supports Fidel is not just ironfist, but much more the population, mainly the older people. You have a total wrong concept of Cuba. It was a total POVERTY island, just like Africa, Haiti, and today it gives great education and health care to its people. Ofcourse Fidel is not a hero, but near what Cuba was and the earlier leaders, he's uncomparable, and really did good things for the cubans. Most latin americans respect him a lot.

Cuba is not that bad. Cubans are not "little-minded" as north-koreans are. Cubans know reality, they have many parents living in Florida :ohno: , but still. They do know about the world and stuff. You guys don't know that what really supports Fidel is not just ironfist, but much more the population, mainly the older people. You have a total wrong concept of Cuba. It was a total POVERTY island, just like Africa, Haiti, and today it gives great education and health care to its people. Ofcourse Fidel is not a hero, but near what Cuba was and the earlier leaders, he's uncomparable, and really did good things for the cubans. Most latin americans respect him a lot.

I don't think that North-Koreans are "little-minded" by themselves. They are kept that way by the government, because thinking for yourself can be very dangerous. Read 1984 for a nice description how this mindf*cking works.

Besides I agree with what you're saying. Cuba is totally different and comes closest to communism how it was meant to be. It's no democracy, but there isn't the blatant violation of human rights like there is/was in many other communist countries. And Castro indeed did good things for the population.

It would be interesting to see how Cuba would be doing without the US trade embargo.

You have a total wrong concept of Cuba. It was a total POVERTY island, just like Africa, Haiti, and today it gives great education and health care to its people. Ofcourse Fidel is not a hero, but near what Cuba was and the earlier leaders, he's uncomparable, and really did good things for the cubans. Most latin americans respect him a lot.

I don't really have much idea about Cuba to be honest, but you do raise a couple of interesting points. What you say about Castro can also be compared to Kim Il-Sung - compare what he did for the country with what 35 years of Japanese Colonialism did for North Korea and the South Korea-centric Korean governments before that. It's easy to forget that for two decades after WWII the North was better off than the South and Kim Il-Sung's Juche philosophy attracted worldwide praise. The decline of the nation began in the 1970s and reached a low when his son took over as leader (a contradiction of Socialist ethos which was met with worldwide disdain), yet it's difficult to erase the idolization of someone who was actually a true hero for the people, no matter how laughable his 'cult of personality' seems to us now.

Vertigo..

I've already read 1984.. btw, it's a really depressing book, huh.

Dr. Nick..

I agree with you. But I don't see why they have to force the people to live in this 'Kim Il-sung fairy tale' until today. Man, that leaves me angry sometimes. Those people are wasting their lifetime (for me, this is very important) just to idolize a dead guy that wasn't 1/5 of what they make them think. What for???? That's "un-human". For example, WHEN would that 'on-the-spot guidance' histories (from ballet to military conflicts LOL), you said before, happen in Cuba? NEVER! Cubans are by far 'wiser' on 'idolizing Fidel', because they know their reality. Many latin americans study medical school in Cuba (no kidding, it's a very good school), for example. There are many cuban doctors working in indigenous tribes in North Brazil. The difference is clear. Wikipedia have a good article talking about Fidel (see 'Cuba'). I really don't think you would have the same 1984 feeling going to Cuba than in NK.

@Dr. Nick: good points, many people indeed forget that Kim Il Sung made the country rather prosporous in the beginning. The downfall indeed had a lot to do with Kim Jung Il's takeover, but I think the most important factor is the downfall of communism in the Soviet Union and the introduction of capitalist markets in China. North-Korea suddenly lots its socialist trading partners...

@shosho: also some good points you make. The on the spot guidance thing in North Korea is indeed rediculous, can't believe people actually believe such nonsense. That's one of the reasons why I referred to 1984, where Orwell shows how you can make intelligent people make believe the most illogical things. I think you're right regarding Cuba; I'd really like to visit it some day and see the difference. I expect a world of difference with North-Korea...

(on a side note; I just bought a DVD of the Manic Street Preachers playing in Cuba. Don't believe that could happen in North Korea ;) )

:applause: Great job Nick!!!!

.

It would be interesting to see how Cuba would be doing without the US trade embargo.
I think the country would be wealthier of course but communism could have more difficulties to survive because of more western influence.

Cuba is great, communism did very good things (for example: people are poor but ive seen nearly nobody with bad teeth)
But the limitation of freedom of speech and lack of free media is sad.
But i prefer cuban communist atmosphere than Arab religious dictatorschips for example.

sorry, i wrote: they have many parents living in Florida ; in portuguese, the word 'parents' means 'relatives', so i made a confusion, i meant to say relatives.. anyway..

a small comparasion on 'life quality' with some countries:

India:
Literacy: 59.5%
Life expectancy at birth: 63.99 years
Infant mortality rate: 57.92 deaths/1,000 live births
Population growth rate: 1.44%
Median age: 24.4 years
GDP - per capita PPP: $2,900
GDP - composition by sector: agriculture: 23.6% ; industry: 28.4% ; services: 48%


North Korea:
Literacy: 99%
Life expectancy at birth: 71.08 years
Infant mortality rate: 24.84 deaths/1,000 live births
Population growth rate: 0.98%
Median age: 31.4 years
GDP - per capita PPP: $1,300
GDP - composition by sector: agriculture: 30.2% ; industry: 33.8% ; services: 36%


Cuba:
Literacy: 97%
Life expectancy at birth: 77.04 years
Infant mortality rate: 6.45 deaths/1,000 live births
Population growth rate: 0.34%
Median age: 34.8 years
GDP - per capita PPP: $2,900
GDP - composition by sector: agriculture: 5.5% ; industry: 26.9% ; services: 67.6%


USA:
Literacy: 97%
Life expectancy at birth: 77.43 years
Infant mortality rate: 6.63 deaths/1,000 live births
Population growth rate: 0.92%
Median age: 36 years
GDP - per capita PPP: $37,800
GDP - composition by sector: agriculture: 1.4% ; industry: 26.2% ; services: 72.5%

sorry, i wrote: they have many parents living in Florida ; in portuguese, the word 'parents' means 'relatives', so i made a confusion, i meant to say relatives.. anyway..

a small comparasion on 'life quality' with some countries:

India:
Literacy: 59.5%
Life expectancy at birth: 63.99 years
Infant mortality rate: 57.92 deaths/1,000 live births
Population growth rate: 1.44%
Median age: 24.4 years
GDP - per capita PPP: $2,900
GDP - composition by sector: agriculture: 23.6% ; industry: 28.4% ; services: 48%


North Korea:
Literacy: 99%
Life expectancy at birth: 71.08 years
Infant mortality rate: 24.84 deaths/1,000 live births
Population growth rate: 0.98%
Median age: 31.4 years
GDP - per capita PPP: $1,300
GDP - composition by sector: agriculture: 30.2% ; industry: 33.8% ; services: 36%


Cuba:
Literacy: 97%
Life expectancy at birth: 77.04 years
Infant mortality rate: 6.45 deaths/1,000 live births
Population growth rate: 0.34%
Median age: 34.8 years
GDP - per capita PPP: $2,900
GDP - composition by sector: agriculture: 5.5% ; industry: 26.9% ; services: 67.6%


USA:
Literacy: 97%
Life expectancy at birth: 77.43 years
Infant mortality rate: 6.63 deaths/1,000 live births
Population growth rate: 0.92%
Median age: 36 years
GDP - per capita PPP: $37,800
GDP - composition by sector: agriculture: 1.4% ; industry: 26.2% ; services: 72.5%


like you can believe any of those numbers from cuba or north korea.



anyway, i always love to see recent photos of the DPRK. it blows my mind everytime.


thanks, wish i could go.

The figures for North Korea are reasonably accurate, aside from GDP, which is a rough estimate. Things like literacy rates are always high in industrialised communist states. Given the example of Cuba, note how high absolute wealth is not mandatory in the provision of basic social services; however, it does help, as shown by Japan, arguably the zenith of modern civilisation:

Japan:
Literacy: 99%
Life expectancy at birth: 81.04 years
Infant mortality rate: 3.28 deaths/1,000 live births
Population growth rate: 0.08%
Median age: 42 years
GDP - per capita constant: $45,100

North Korea:
Life expectancy at birth: 71.08 years

I don't believe this. Millions of people have died there during famine crises over the last couple of years. This has surely affected the life expectancy.

@ Vertigo & Dr Nick
Actually, what I meant wasn't actual communism but something similar to the USSR, which to me is standard communism (not the "real" communism as in the sense of original but real as in the sense of reality since i was born in the USSR)

Also, about the unawareness of North Koreans, I have one working in the library of my school and I'm thinking that I should talk to him concerning DPRK.

BTW did any of you see any chubby koreans there? :)

@ Jue
Don't forget about Sweden:
Literacy: 99% (1979 est.)
Life expectancy at birth: 80.3 years
Infant mortality rate: total: 2.77 deaths/1,000 live births
Population growth rate: 0.18% (2004 est.)
Median age: total: 40.3 years
GDP - per capita: $26,800 (2003 est.)
source: CIA World Factbook (http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/index.html)
It's not quite as good as Japan but very near. An alarming trend, tough, is that unemployment is staggering. The official numbers (same source) say 4.9 but the actual amount of able people out of jobs is around 25%.

I wonder what the suicide rate is for tenants in those Communist high-rise hovels...

Yeah, even though you know they won't harm rich tourists, it still feels a bit eery, doesn't it? Returning into China really felt like returning into freedom, even though China also isn't exactly the heaven of freedom.

The worst thing in North Korea is generally they have no respect to North Americans and Europeans in general. But that's not unique around the planet--- I do find those countries close to North Korea--- for example, China (Taiwan), it's some kind of "ignorance" for one to behave like a Brits... so I guess North Korean influence is all around Asia--- anyhow that's Asian culture.