If Toronto were to separate from Canada, it would be one of the wealthiest cities in the world. It would no longer have to send $11 billion a year to the rest of Canada. We could afford to build subways on every major road, house every homeless person, provide the best education and health care in the world. Just imagine, Toronto would be the envy of the world!

I'm glad I'm not the only person that has thought about this. This would solve a lot of problems, but also create some new ones. In the end result though, I think it would unquestionably be for the better and lead to Toronto's true golden age once the kinks are ironed out. The big problem though is that Canada could potentially collapse economically and much more dependence on the US may result.

What a silly idea. Toronto has this wealth right now because it can funnel the resources of the rest of Canada through itself. I don't resent this ; I'm glad we have a world class city in Canada. But if you think Toronto would be better off economically then you are naive. That wealth is generated BECAUSE of the rest of Canada. After a hypothetical seperation you'd have a lot more costs to deal with than you do now. You think you'd still be losing eleven billion a year to the rest of Canada? No, you just wouldn't have that eleven billion to begin with. Don't forget, with Toronto gone, Canada would build itself another great city as it's showcase and main entry port. Toronto would be bypassed. Two and a half million people would not be able to support the economy that Toronto now enjoys.

What a silly idea. Toronto has this wealth right now because it can funnel the resources of the rest of Canada through itself. I don't resent this ; I'm glad we have a world class city in Canada. But if you think Toronto would be better off economically then you are naive. That wealth is generated BECAUSE of the rest of Canada. After a hypothetical seperation you'd have a lot more costs to deal with than you do now. You think you'd still be losing eleven billion a year to the rest of Canada? No, you just wouldn't have that eleven billion to begin with. Don't forget, with Toronto gone, Canada would build itself another great city as it's showcase and main entry port. Toronto would be bypassed. Two and a half million people would not be able to support the economy that Toronto now enjoys.
The rest of Canada used to be important to Toronto's economy. That changed when free trade was introduced.

The rest of Canada used to be important to Toronto's economy. That changed when free trade was introduced.
Oh? How so?

Oh? How so?
Canada used to be southern Ontario's biggest market for exports. Ever since free trade, America became southern Ontario's most important export market. The importance of Canada as a market for southern Ontario's exports declines every year, while the US increases. Besides, if Toronto separated, does that mean it couldn't trade with the rest of Canada? I assume a separate Toronto would become part of NAFTA.

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This idea is as mature as that episode of "I Love Lucy" where they draw a line down the centre of the room.

Of course we'd be able to keep our precious money, but we'd separate ourselves from many things that are vital to our economy. NAFTA isn't automatic; the other countries would have to agree to allow us in (Saint Pierre and Miquelon is in North America, so does that automatically make France a member of NAFTA?). And, assuming we did become a part of NAFTA, when we sit down at the NAFTA table to discuss trade disputes, we'd be speaking with Canada, Mexico, and America. How much pull do you think we'd have in such a meeting, a mere sliver of the North American economy? Don't think for a moment that America is enjoying its current trade deficit. If America finds an excuse to cut off or limit trade with us (re: softwood lumber, mad cow...), then our economy is slowed drastically, or may even begin to shrink. Besides, you shouldn't forget where most of the natural resources and many of the experienced workers for our precious manufacturing industry come from, gentlemen. Not to mention the fact that Toronto is the corporate headquarters of many companies that are run throughout Canada (mining, transportation, etc)... so why would they maintain their headquarters in a foreign territory? The TSX would shrink as a result of this exodus (farewell to a great deal of white collar jobs) and another location would become the business centre of Canada. When it comes to dumping trash, Canada/America can pretty much name a price and we'd have to pay it. Furthermore, if there were ever a massive blizzard...

Blah blah blah... there is no end to saying why this would be a bad idea. I can't believe I even bothered. Our deal in Toronto may be rotten, but this isn't the way to handle it. Rather than post, I should have just laughed if off with malek...

Would Toronto really still be as important economically if it loses a border crossing with the US? I think a Golden Horseshoe country would work far better, but I don't like the idea of separating from the rest of Canada at all.

Canada used to be southern Ontario's biggest market for exports. Ever since free trade, America became southern Ontario's most important export market. The importance of Canada as a market for southern Ontario's exports declines every year, while the US increases. Besides, if Toronto separated, does that mean it couldn't trade with the rest of Canada? I assume a separate Toronto would become part of NAFTA.
Well if that's the case, how would it help for Toronto to have to pay to import raw materials from Canada to turn into manufactured goods?

Okay, let's actually think about this for a moment: What currency will Toronto use? How much will it cost for Toronto to set up it's 'national' government departments such as immigration, healthcare, revenue, justice, prisons, defense, etc. ? How will Toronto replace the lost jobs when Canadian corporations move out (and yes, there would definitely be a mass exodus....why would the Bank of Montreal etc. headquarter themselves in a foreign country ?) Then of course there's the fact that Toronto will have to pay even more for it's necessary imports like food and gas. In fact, with no natural resources, Toronto will have to pay even more for just about everything. As costs go up, production values go down. Toronto becomes uncompetitive. Pretty soon it passes it's costs on to the customer....and on it goes until whatever profit the city was making is whittled away to nothing. And who's going to pay more for something from Toronto when even Hamilton down the road can produce it cheaper?

Toronto be better off as it's own state...you're dreaming my friend.

Someone brought an excellent point of re-jigging our federation so it is an association of provinces and city-states (Toronto, Montreal, Van, Calgary). It's an interesting idea.

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I pretty much agree but I would also like to add.



WAHAHAHAHHAHEEHEEHEEHEEHEEHEEHEEHEEHEEHEEHEEHEE HEE

OHOHOHOOHOHOHOOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHO

and




lol



drto, trz <--------- :bash:

Someone brought an excellent point of re-jigging our federation so it is an association of provinces and city-states (Toronto, Montreal, Van, Calgary). It's an interesting idea.


Time to be serious.

The only thing that could bring this kind of power shuffle is that Separatists gain a referndum in Quebec (or else) and that the federal govt in a last bid to save the country revise/rewrote the constitution.



drastic ideas needs drastic measures.

Time to be serious.

The only thing that could bring this kind of power shuffle is that Separatists gain a referndum in Quebec (or else) and that the federal govt in a last bid to save the country revise/rewrote the constitution.

It was more of a thinking exercise than anything else. Obviously, it could never happen.

While the thought of that does give me tingles, the power to do that is ultra vires(?). I know that is just for fun, but why do noobs always start topics that seem stupid and get out of hand? Sorry if this offends anybody.

Although the idea is attractive at first thought, it really does not make any sense when it is thought through a little more carefully.

For one thing, it would probubly wreck Toronto's economy and it would certainly cost alot of money to replace the departments that upper levels of government currently employ.

What is more feesable is an idea much more like Sal's thoughts on upgrading cities status.

Many foriegn cities have province status in their respective countries, it only makes sense that Canada's lead cities have similar arrangements.

Don't worry all, a Toronto City Act is on its way. This will give Toronto significantly more power, tha act should be approved by the end of the year.

^ Do you have any more information, links, etc? ^

Sure, Toronto could seceed from Canada, but it would destroy the city. The wealth of Toronto is mined in northern Canada. The reason for all the financial deals, the wealth of the citizens, the manufacturing, everything, is because Toronto makes its money off the natural resources of the rest of the country. While the economy has diversified somewhat in the last 50 years (into telecommunications, high-tech, pharmaceuticals) the centers of those industries are outside the city limits (Markham, Mississauga, Brampton, etc.) and therefore not part of the equation.

Further, just because trade from Ontario has become more focused on the states after free trade, it does not ensure economic success of the new Republic of Toronto (or whatever). To allow Toronto to join NAFTA would require the approval of the US, Canada and Mexico. I'm not sure about the States or Mexico, but you can bet that Canada would not support Toronto leaching possible wealth from Canada since many of the functions that Toronto performs for the national economy would be very lucrative to whichever Canadian cities they moved to.

Although I'm sure that this is just a hypothetical argument, it does sort of smack of the arrogance that people in other parts of the country dislike Toronto for (as does the Jane Jacobs province of Toronto idea). Frankly, I would bet that 95% of the political discontent that hatches these ideas could be solved by some recognition of the place of cities in the constitution, so that they do not exist at the whim of the provincial governments. Solving this would be a whole helluva lot easier and more productive than declaring a new nation.

hhhhmmmm i dunno......should paris hilton get a boob job?? :bash: :cucumber: :crazy2:

Is this what you guys want?
http://www.canadascities.ca/pdf/torontoactmilleroped.pdf
http://webhome.idirect.com/~jleeson/toronto_act.htm

And Ontario can use it's own money for itself? We might actually get paved highways! WOW!

Good idea.

Since the topic mentions Singapore, I don't know if DRTO is aware that Singapore did not declare independence on their own; they were kicked out of Malaysia... and it was not even over money matter that they were kicked out. I'm not sure Torontonians want to undergo the same experience Singaporeans have been having over all these years. City-states like Singapore or Hong Kong appear to be very well off, but they went through many nasty experiences with their larger neighbours, especially over natural resource... It's just silly to suggest that Toronto, or any major cities, which now enjoy the benefits for being part of a larger country, should become independent because they don't want to share their wealth with others (and they have to "share" their wealth in other forms anyways).

The idea of provincial status for the Golden Horseshoe appears interesting, but does it require a change in the Constitution? If it does, it's just undoable.

^Im no lawyer and dont know if this is true but a while back a guy named Paul Lewin ran for mayor under the promise that he would fight to make Toronto it's own province.

If memory serves me correctly, he based his claim on some sort of legal mumbojumbo in the Constitution that he could use to this end.

It didn't strike me as being believeable though.

Your right Homer, that guy did try to make Toronto it's own province, i'm sure if you googled it you'd something about it.

Is this what you guys want?
http://www.canadascities.ca/pdf/torontoactmilleroped.pdf

The new Act will essentially be Toronto’s “constitution.” It will treat Toronto as a full order of
government by allowing us to exercise, within our areas of responsibility, the powers of a
province. Only where Queen’s Park identifies an overriding provincial interest, will there be
exceptions.
This approach turns the existing way of assigning power to Toronto on its head. Instead of
placing restrictions on what the City can do, this legislation will start from the premise that
Toronto can exercise all the powers we need to in order to efficiently run a modern, big city
government, spelling out only the exceptions.
That's going to yeild pretty much the same effect as succession, so it satisfies me! I find it hard to beleive that the governments between levels are actually co-operating, which both is and isn't happening and I beleive it is about to get extremely bad on the Federal level, which is my biggest bitch about the system the country runs on (the bickering between governments that sees to jack all getting done and allowing nothing but to let things sit, rot, crumble, and disappear).

Are you Canadian??
Why do you think so? Do you really want saperation of Canada??
into 2 ?? 3?? 5?? 10??

One coutry is Peaceful , Wealthful and most Powerful as ONE !

It seems that you really like separation. or Spy from other country(against).
I'm not Canadian. but I cant understand!!

Sorry for my sux English.

Are you Canadian??
Why do you think so? Do you really want saperation of Canada??
into 2 ?? 3?? 5?? 10??

One coutry is Peaceful , Wealthful and most Powerful as ONE !

It seems that you really like separation. or Spy from other country(against).
I'm not Canadian. but I cant understand!!

Sorry for my sux English.

they're from ontario.............you know - they're morons

^Why haven't you been banned yet you bigot?


Are you Canadian??
Why do you think so? Do you really want saperation of Canada??
into 2 ?? 3?? 5?? 10??

One coutry is Peaceful , Wealthful and most Powerful as ONE !

It seems that you really like separation. or Spy from other country(against).
I'm not Canadian. but I cant understand!!

Sorry for my sux English.

Canada's federal government does not always work all that well for everybody. It has not worked for Ontario for a long time. So much so that Ontario is currently running a +5 billion dollar deficit, the people of Ontario pay the heighest tuition fees for University and pay the second most per-capita to the feds after Alberta.

This has been happening for a long time and has created hard feelings between Ontarians and the rest of Canada. People like Npinguy is a prime example of ignorant fools who instead of understanding our possition insults us instead.

BTW, your English is just fine. Don't let anybody else tell you otherwise.

they're from ontario.............you know - they're morons
:rofl:
True, true, especially Torontonians...

:rofl:
True, true, especially Torontonians...
Yup, these are the kind of idiots that Torontonians have to put up with. :bash:

CrazyCanuck did you seriously day noobs. Are you are computer nerd man I hate that term I think its dumb. No you didn't offend me I just think that is the dumbest term of all time. Maybe I should call rookies on my football team noobs lol.

day - say its all good.

Are you Canadian??
Why do you think so? Do you really want saperation of Canada??
into 2 ?? 3?? 5?? 10??

One coutry is Peaceful , Wealthful and most Powerful as ONE !

It seems that you really like separation. or Spy from other country(against).
I'm not Canadian. but I cant understand!!

Sorry for my sux English.

Yes, I am Canadian - this was true as I grew up.
No, I am Torontonian - this is true now.

I am someone that used to dread the idea of what would happen if Quebec splits. Now, I can't wait to get rid of them - we should kick the northern majority out (leaving only the St.Lawrence River areas as part of Canada). The reason is hypocrisy, blackmail, ingratitude, unreasonability, inflexibility, corruption, the list goes on. This is costing an enormous amount of money. Quebec gets more money than any other province through the above mentioned reasons. It's hypocritical because they still want to separate even though they're making a fortune off Ottawa (which they wouldn't if they separate).
French Quebec generally hates or fears (or both) English Canada. In many ways, they already act as separate countries. Yet Canada is bankrolling this other country, and what's more is that the Prime Minister has a very high tendeancy to be from Quebec. Quebec is also one of the power-provinces in elections, behind only Ontario.
That's just the Quebec angle though, now other provinces are ripping the country off too. Alberta, Newfoundland, and Nova Scotia are currently the worst offenders. They don't share their natural resource wealth yet Toronto is forced to share its economic resource wealth. Toronto makes more money than anywhere in the country, yet it is practically the poorest.
Toronto has lost the shirt off its back to the rest of the country, yet it is because of Toronto that this country has money to go around, and nobody outside the city is batting an eyelash at this outrage (with the exception of those that want to move to the city but can't for whatever reason). It is a fact that people not living in Toronto (and don't want to move to Toronto) hate Toronto, in many areas with a passion. I hate the rest of the country for this, for they are asinine. They wouldn't have half of the what they do today if it weren't for Toronto, and now they are leeching us of our lifeblood and killing us, somehow thinking that they won't take the rest of the country with it.
This is where they are fatally flawed, without Toronto, the country will economically suffer on a level not seen since the depression.
That's why I say separate. The country can't survive without us and it'll teach the rest of them a hard lesson.

People say that Toronto can't survive without the rest of Canada. But where are all the people? GTA. Where do all 400-series highway goto? The 401, which goes to Toronto. Where do all railway lines goto? Union Station in Toronto. Where are all the major banks and other big businesses based? Toronto or GTA. Relocation is an expensive proposition and a managerial as well as logistical nightmare. You think all those employees want to move? What is the only city besides Toronto that has the infrastructure that can support a city of a similar size as an epicenter? Montreal, which is in even greater danger of separating being in Quebec. Vancouver and the rest will not make the cut. You think these major businesses will just up and relocate?

The fact is Toronto is the heart of the country, and actually does own the country, yet paradoxically has no power over it at the same time. This is what has to change. If we are not going to call the shots in Canada, then we are not going to bankroll it at the cost of our own wellbeing. You can't live without us. We can't live without you either, but we can get what we need from you without being part of the same country, but that claim can't quite be made by the rest of Canada. It'd be worse for them than it would for us.

LMAO! ^

You really think that Canada would be worse off without Toronto than the other way around? You really think The Bank of Montreal is going to keep it's headquarters in a foreign country? The Feds will just keep on occupying the same buildings in a foreign country? You think that Canadians will just allow a foreign country to collect all of it's wealth? Guess again.

Forget the idea of the GTA ever seperating, it's ludicrous enough to propose that Toronto alone would. All those head offices would make their way down the QEW to Mississauga or Hamilton long before they stayed in Toronto in the event of seperation. And with those jobs would go the people. With those people would go more jobs.....etc.,...

Teach us a lesson? As though we outside of Toronto actually give a shit what goes on inside of it anymore than you have reason to care about what goes on outside of Toronto? What are we all 'naughty children' now? Is that how you see the rest of Canada? And then you wonder where some people get the idea that Toronto views itself as the center of the universe.

Nobody would win in this scenario but if you really think that Toronto would be better off without Canada then I've got a bridge to sell you.

All this forum does is further prove my stereotypical view of Toronto.

Toronto seperate from Canada? Thats rediculous. It would never work. Make the GTA a province (still part of Canada, yet a little more independant), now theres an idea.

this topic is nearly 3 years old....

Toronto seperate from Canada? Thats rediculous. It would never work. Make the GTA a province (still part of Canada, yet a little more independant), now theres an idea.


The GTA a province....

It depends, the positives are that there would much more infrastructure funding... The negatives are.... that Ontario needs a new capital??? Thunder Bay?



However if you make the GTA a province, greater Montreal will want to as well.

Well if Montreal separates, you can easily assume that Quebec will separate in a year.

If Toronto were to separate from Canada, it would be one of the wealthiest cities in the world. It would no longer have to send $11 billion a year to the rest of Canada. We could afford to build subways on every major road, house every homeless person, provide the best education and health care in the world. Just imagine, Toronto would be the envy of the world!

We can all stop paying taxes too! :banana:

The GTA as a province (Mississauga, York region, Durham and Toronto) would be an economic wet fantasy.

The money and power this new super region would yield would completely spin Canada upside down (a good thing).

I think the idea of having DC-like cities in Canada's biggest metros would be feasible.
Montreal, Calgary, Ottawa-Gatineau, Vancouver BUT Toronto would actually be the most difficult to create.
None of the other's are provincial capitols but Toronto is and so would mean creating an entirely new province beside the one in Toronto.

what about "special economic zones" like what China is doing? :p Ours would be Vancouver, Calgary, Toronto, and Montreal...and possibly Edmonton.

explain that concept ^^^^^^^

explain that concept ^^^^^^^

In China, the 4 largest cities (Shanghai, Beijing, Tianjin, and Chonqing) are province-level municipalities, where the municipal government has the same powers as the rest of China's provinces. I think this may be an idea that could help Canada's cities get the powers they really need to grow and thrive.

So they get much more tax revenue right???

However if you make the GTA a province, greater Montreal will want to as well.

Well if Montreal separates, you can easily assume that Quebec will separate in a year.


Does anyone else have a problem with this?

I certainly don't.

All large cities in this country should be treated equally even if that is a consequence. It would in the end be a mistake for quebec outside of the Montreal CMA to try to make it on their own.

Separation isn't the answer. At the very least the transfer payments that bleed Ontario dry should stop. Then you will see true wealth in Toronto and Ontario.

I think the feds are treading dangerous waters with Ontario anyway and eventually the province (if it ever gets some balls) will rebel. Canada has the most to lose when Ontario decides to pull up stakes and with the feds refusing to subsidize up any Ontario based major industry, Ontario has less and less to lose by going its own way and no longer playing Captain Canada.

I don't understand why people want to be part of a country that is so united in its glee when Ontario suffers economically anyway?

I should mention that if the current Reform gov't has its way, Ontario should be a have-not province just in time for the next election.

Things are slowly begining to change for the better in this area. Hopefully faster if we can oust Harper. :)

As an Ontarian, I'm really not against the idea of assisting other parts of the country that are worse off economically. What I am against, however, is the constant short-changing the province gets when WE are facing certain hardships.

The GTA as a province (Mississauga, York region, Durham and Toronto) would be an economic wet fantasy.

The money and power this new super region would yield would completely spin Canada upside down (a good thing).


Keep dreaming. :cheers:

With Toronto out of the picture, maybe this province will actually create policies that are relevant to the northern 80% of it? :dunno:

I won't go into it now but new OPA policy could plunge the north into crippling poverty.

I havent read all the posts, nor will I, but I have to say this is a pretty dumb idea, since a) unless we get a FTA with the ROC (including Quebec) then we would have to pay huge tariffs on everything
b) Toronto would be completely surrounded by Canada, and the suburbs would be in another country.

I could add more but I`m lazy

I would like to say though, that if they were going to try to become there own province, and include the surrounding suburbs then I could see it plausible, maybe.

The fact is Toronto is the heart of the countryAnd without a body what good is a heart?

What a silly idea. Toronto has this wealth right now because it can funnel the resources of the rest of Canada through itself. I don't resent this ; I'm glad we have a world class city in Canada. But if you think Toronto would be better off economically then you are naive. That wealth is generated BECAUSE of the rest of Canada. After a hypothetical seperation you'd have a lot more costs to deal with than you do now. You think you'd still be losing eleven billion a year to the rest of Canada? No, you just wouldn't have that eleven billion to begin with. Don't forget, with Toronto gone, Canada would build itself another great city as it's showcase and main entry port. Toronto would be bypassed. Two and a half million people would not be able to support the economy that Toronto now enjoys.

See, Toronto actually suffers from equalization in case you gidn't know. I'm all for a city state..and be sure to toll the 905'ers driving in to watch the maple laughs:banana:

I think the idea of having DC-like cities in Canada's biggest metros would be feasible.
Montreal, Calgary, Ottawa-Gatineau, Vancouver BUT Toronto would actually be the most difficult to create.
None of the other's are provincial capitols but Toronto is and so would mean creating an entirely new province beside the one in Toronto.

I don't see how.. You would just transfer the provincial government to London and that would be that.

Since the topic mentions Singapore, I don't know if DRTO is aware that Singapore did not declare independence on their own; they were kicked out of Malaysia...

Was it because they had too many ethnic Chinese? (Hello city-state of Vancouver?)

What are the options for Toronto/GTA/Golden Horseshoe?

1) To have a Charter agreement with the Provinces to have autonomy over itself and to keep many of its own revenues - based on the model of the City of Vancouver, which many on the forum do not realise has huge autonomy, though this does not extend beyond the municipality's boundaries. This would not require any constitutional change and maintain a relationship between the city and the province.

2) To have a city type authority reporting directly to the federal government similar to say the four major city state type jurisdictions in China. This frees up the city to develop itself without the province dragging it down. The switch of Chongqing from being a city with Sechuan to having independence resulted in very dramatic growth and prosperity for the city. This would no doubt require a modification to the constitution - but could equally apply to all major cities in Canada.

3) To consider subdividing existing large provinces, could Ontario have an east and west, and similar for Quebec. This way the country's provinces are more equalised in relative political power/influence, and west Ontario and West Quebec (with Montreal) would become akin to being city states. This too would require a change to the constitution but not the creation of a new type of political entity such as a city-state.

Are there other options apart from the status quo and pure separation of cities from Canada?

The City of Toronto does have new powers of autonomy, and is beginning to implement them. I don't know about the powers Vancouver has, so I can't compare them.

Yes Toronto has new found powers but is bringing them in a pathetic pase.
After all those years of bitching at Queen's Park about needing new abilityies to raise funds and be masters in their own house they finally get those powers and now don't know what to do with them.

As far as the GVRD goes the biggest thing that it has going is the Translink gas tax.
It raises a shitload of money and because the money goes straight to Translink and not some politicians pet project it can only be used for transportation as that is all Translink is responsible for.

Yes Toronto has new found powers but is bringing them in a pathetic pase.
After all those years of bitching at Queen's Park about needing new abilityies to raise funds and be masters in their own house they finally get those powers and now don't know what to do with them.

As far as the GVRD goes the biggest thing that it has going is the Translink gas tax.
It raises a shitload of money and because the money goes straight to Translink and not some politicians pet project it can only be used for transportation as that is all Translink is responsible for.

I couldn't disagree more, and in fact am wondering what you are basing it on
when you say things like "now don't know what to do with them".Implementing these new powers in the most effective manner takes planning and some time. I would not have had a lot of respect for them had they jumped right in and tried to do everything at once. I would hardly say that because they have been planning things for a few months since the change occurs that they don't know what to do with the new powers.