RANK MSA 2004

1 New York-Newark-Edison, NY-NJ-PA 18709802
2 Philadelphia-Camden-Wilmington, PA-NJ-DE-MD 5800614
3 Washington-Arlington-Alexandria, DC-VA-MD-WV 5139549
4 Boston-Cambridge-Quincy, MA-NH 4424649
4 Baltimore-Towson, MD 2639213
6 Pittsburgh, PA 2401575
7 Providence-New Bedford-Fall River, RI-MA 1628808
8 Hartford-West Hartford-East Hartford, CT 1184564
9 Buffalo-Cheektowaga-Tonawanda, NY 1154378
10 Rochester, NY 1041499
11 Bridgeport-Stamford-Norwalk, CT 903291
12 New Haven-Milford, CT 845694
13 Albany-Schenectady-Troy, NY 845269
14 Allentown-Bethlehem-Easton, PA-NJ 779816
15 Worcester, MA 779488
16 Springfield, MA 687973
17 Poughkeepsie-Newburgh-Middletown, NY 663747
18 Syracuse, NY 653988
19 Scranton--Wilkes-Barre, PA 551531
20 Harrisburg-Carlisle, PA 519331
21 Portland-South Portland, ME 510791
22 Lancaster, PA 487332
23 York-Hanover, PA 401613
24 Manchester-Nashua, NH 398574
25 Reading, PA 391640
26 Trenton-Ewing, NJ 365271
27 Utica-Rome, NY 298820
28 Erie, PA 282355
29 Atlantic City, NJ 268693
30 Norwich-New London, CT 266466
31 Binghamton, NY 249231
32 Hagerstown-Martinsburg, MD-WV 244796
33 Barnstable Town, MA 228683
34 Burlington-South Burlington, VT 204485
35 Torrington, CT 189246
36 Kingston, NY 181779
37 Seaford, DE 172216
38 Lebanon, NH-VT 171381
39 East Stroudsburg, PA 158925
40 Vineland-Millville-Bridgeton, NJ 151183
41 Johnstown, PA 148496
42 Bangor, ME 148196
43 Pottsville, PA 147670
44 Concord, NH 145542
45 State College, PA 140476
46 Dover, DE 138752
47 Jamestown-Dunkirk-Fredonia, NY 137267
48 Chambersburg, PA 134864
49 Pittsfield, MA 132486
50 Glens Falls, NY 127954
51 Altoona, PA 127468
52 Lebanon, PA 124489
53 Augusta-Waterville, ME 120645
54 Williamsport, PA 118542
55 Salisbury, MD 114645
56 Willimantic, CT 114343
57 Watertown-Fort Drum, NY 111467
58 Ogdensburg-Massena, NY 111306
59 Lewiston-Auburn, ME 107022
60 Cumberland, MD-WV 101016
61 Ocean City, NJ 100758
62 Ithaca, NY 100135

Maybe no one else notices but look how dominant CT is in the Northeast. If Hartford-New Haven-Springfield were combined like Providence-New Bedford-Fall River we would rival Baltimore and surpass Pittsburg.

PA is part of New yorks metro????!!!!

Yeah, I think there are places east of scranton that are a part of the NYC metro.

PA is part of New yorks metro????!!!!

Pike County, PA is part of the NYC MSA

Rochester Sucks!

Monroe County in PA is also seeing an infusion of NYC people looking for relatively cheap land and housing.

I though Worcester was part of Boston Metro

im getting real confused why do people include DC and maryland in SE threads for statistics and shit I mean how much does the south take up anyway.

I just like the midatlantic designation, b'more and dc both are under the south atlantic region in the census and both have southern and northern influences, so midatlantic is the best, I think northern va is geographically the middle anyway.

I guess they are considered both since they are transitioning places to the North and South.

Give Buffalo another 200,000 to 400,000 which is not counted on the Canadian side. Detroit also has this undercount issue because a boarder cuts through the metro area.

256th largest urban aglomeration in the world http://www.citypopulation.de/World.html

Buffalo
1,550,000
incl. St. Catharines (Canada)

DarkFenX, Worcester is part of the Boston Consolidated Statistical Area not the MSA(Metropolitan Statistical Area), which are the stats posted above.

here is a question, is Wheeling tied to Pittsburgh or Akron / Cleveland ?

I like how people (some) think Baltimore is southern, I find it to be very northern as far as influence and history. Hell even Hampton Roads is kinda Northern compared to New Orleans or Nashville.

I really get a kick out of WV being part of the "DC metro", even though it's a good two hours away and there really is no suburban connectivity beyond Montgomery Co., MD for it to really be included. While we're at it, let's just say Hagerstown, Frederick, and Cumberland are all a part of the DC metro. Oh hell, let's invite Pittsburgh to the party as well! They're close to WV after all, which is close to MD, which is close to DC. :hahaha:

I have a simple question. Why isnt Baltimore the same metro as DC, while the state of West Virginia is?

Combine

9 Buffalo-Cheektowaga-Tonawanda, NY 1154378
10 Rochester, NY 1041499

to make over 2million people!

There have been a shitload of New Yorkers in the Wilmington area in the past 3 years.
I don't understand what's happening.


I'm tellin yous..
24,510,416 NYC-Philly Metro baby

When I look at the span maps of the metro area, WV and W. Maryland isn't included, and it's population from those parts are relatively small, but I agree. It's a part of the area, but I don't know how serious it is.

And regardless, if the connectivity is there, then it can be a part of it, regardless of how urban or rural it is. And you'd be surprised, I-81 out to WV has become really really sprawled, Leesburg used to be nothing and now even further out it's change a whole lot. WV in the MSA is a little messed up though IMO. I mean, all they do is add the metros, and I do think that the Frederick and Hagerstown metro should be a part of the CSA so they should just leave those separate not to be included until they make the CSA stats.

And I don't know how much WV is a part of the the DC metro, I thought it was only in the CSA stats, but that is certainly interesting that it's in the metro stats, regardless, not many people live out there anyway.

There are 4,000,000 + people in DC, Montgomery, Prince Georges, Fairfax, Arlington, Alexandria, Loudoun and Prince William. So I don't know much else is included, Stafford, parts of Frederick, Anne Arundel, Charles, and Calvert could be included too.

And I agree, B'more and DC both IMO are northern cities more then they are southern, they benefit from being closer to 3 major us cities in the ne then even 1 major us southern city, Northern VA too, while historically it's south, geographically and culturally, they are about as middle as it is, and I hate how a distinct line with no transition is the convention.

You could be right that WV is starting to sprawl. The thought's scary, because I seem to have noticed Northern VA changing more than anybody. Me and my family used to drive down to North Carolina everyyear and we would take the same route: around the DC beltway, through NoVa, through Warrenton, Charlottesville, Lynchburg, etc. Oh, it used to be nothing but farmland. Just lush farmland almost right past Fairfax County. You wouldn't see a glimpse of housing until you were around Vienna. Now, it's almost all sprawl. It's just incredible. Charlottesville is a good 2 or 3 hours away from DC, but now it seems to take faster with all these farms just turned into housing. The monotonous sprawl is really showing up . Well, Business 29 used to be a breeze through Charville, but the last time I was there (last summer), all four lanes were just gridlocked and the farms were just gone. It's just depressing, I guess, to see how out of control growth is. WV wasn't, I don't think, even included in the DC metro until maybe 5 years ago. Oh well, I'm not convinced the cylce will go on much longer. I seriously think the concept of sprawl will just fold. It's too disorganized and becoming more expensive to travel. When I see little Charlottesville with horrendous traffic...yeah, there's just no way this can go on much longer.

DC and Baltimore are most definitely Northeastern cities. Simply because the Virginia state line falls around there doesn't make them Southern. They are Northeastern. Just because they also fall under the sub category of MidAtlantic doesn't make them Southern. PA is MidAtlantic as well.

Yeah I agree, it's the just some of the people who consider maryland south too. They feel northeastern, they have forever, but even with the va line there, there are parts of suburban maryland too that have southern influences, basically, the area has inspiration from both, but they are much more northeastern.

here is a question, is Wheeling tied to Pittsburgh or Akron / Cleveland ?

I like how people (some) think Baltimore is southern, I find it to be very northern as far as influence and history. Hell even Hampton Roads is kinda Northern compared to New Orleans or Nashville.


Wheeling is it's own metro, but the city has much closer ties to Pittsburgh, which is an hour away, than it does to Cleveland. I'd say Wheeling has closer ties with Columbus than it does Cleveland.

Oh well, deciding whether or not MD is northern or southern is about as trivial to me as labeling someone a conservative or liberal. You are where you are, you are who you are. Even if you were to figure out where it is, who really cares? MD can have blazing weather in the summer and bitter weather in winter; tobacco farms dating back to the 17th century and northeastern style countrysides. MD has southern tastes and northern tastes. Don't forget that there is more to the state than Baltimore and the DC area (on a broader note, Central Maryland.) That's what I love about MD. It's signature style is not having a signature.

Rochester Sucks!

...why, 'cuz it's catching up to Buffalo population-wise?

...why, 'cuz it's catching up to Buffalo population-wise?


To suggest that Rochester's population is 'catching up' to Buffalo is to suggest that its metro is growing. Which it isn't except for the fact that the federal government includes a massive five county swath of area in the Rochester metro making it seem far bigger than it is in reality.

Some of the towns and population included in the Rochester metro are actually closer to Buffalo as a matter of fact.

Buffcity is located midway between the two cities. His some what uncalled for exclaimation on Rochester not with standing he knows quite a bit about both Buff and Roch and has provided a great desription on the stupidity of the metro boundaries used by the Feds with regard top Buffalo and Rochester in other threads not to mention the fact that Buffalo's metro is lopped off by the Canadian boarder.

Again according to this web site http://www.citypopulation.de/World.html

Buffalo 256 largest urban agglomeration at 1.550 M people
Rochester is 411 lagest urban agglomeration at 1.050 M people

To suggest that Rochester's population is 'catching up' to Buffalo is to suggest that its metro is growing. Which it isn't except for the fact that the federal government includes a massive five county swath of area in the Rochester metro making it seem far bigger than it is in reality.

Some of the towns and population included in the Rochester metro are actually closer to Buffalo as a matter of fact.

Buffcity is located midway between the two cities. His some what uncalled for exclaimation on Rochester not with standing he knows quite a bit about both Buff and Roch and has provided a great desription on the stupidity of the metro boundaries used by the Feds with regard top Buffalo and Rochester in other threads not to mention the fact that Buffalo's metro is lopped off by the Canadian boarder.

Again according to this web site http://www.citypopulation.de/World.html

Buffalo 256 largest urban agglomeration at 1.550 M people
Rochester is 411 lagest urban agglomeration at 1.050 M people

Steel, what you continually fail to take into consideration here, is that I (and most others) could care less that you think it's silly that the Rochester Metro encompasses the counties it does. And while I tend to agree with you that Buffalo has been short-changed somewhat with regard to its Metro, it doesn't take away from the fact that the Greater Rochester area is growing, while the Buffalo Metro is losing population year-after-year, both in the city itself and in Erie County. I can't change that fact, and neither can you.

Now, regarding the web site you referred to as the definitive source for metro populations world-wide, let me just say that I do not now, nor will I in the future, believe that this site is the arbiter of all population information. I would ask that simply because YOU believe in something that somewhat validates your already biased notions about the Buffalo area, that you not try to pass these off as being either, "The Bible," or "The Gold Standard," of population surveys--because they certainly are not.

What they are, is a loose collection of data gleaned via hundreds and perhaps thousands of individual surveys conducted in and processed by, people in each nation, who may or may not have the same methods of data accumulation as we do in this country. Factual? Hardly. Quotable? Nah...

I have always held and maintained that Buffalo and Rochester are kindred spirits, with much the same ethnic diversity. To be certain, there are indisputable differences: in pop. per sq. mile, in per household income, in per capita income, in unemployment rates, etc. But, by and large, they are extremely similar.

Your whole focus in this forum seems to be to capitalize on Buffalo--at the expense of Rochester--and while I like both cities, Steel--I see you as nothing more than a dividing force, hell-bent on creating friction where little existed before.

Yes, Buffalo is a bigger city and a bigger metro--there is no getting away from that, but to give Buffalo 400,000 Canadians to add to the metro, is a sham. As though these people are so starved for entertainment, so deprived of shopping and cultural endeavors, or so lacking in any of the finer things that only Buffalo can lay claim to (bullshit), that they would automatically consider themselves honorary Buffalonians, or would be willing to give their eye-teeth just to be a small part of the Greater Niagara Frontier?!! PLEASE!!

Beyond that Steel, do your homework and check the 1960/70/80/90/2000 census numbers and you will find that the Rochester Metro is growing--and has been growing (albeit slowly) for the last 40 years. To continue to lie to the others on this site about a Rochester area metro that you don't think is growing--is to perpetrate an on-going culture of deceipt and deception in these pages. Hardly the kind of argument that brings any kind of credibility to your baseless data and questionable logic..

I have never been on here saying bad things about Rochester.

You are right the counties making up Rochester MSA have been growing by a miniscule amount, but your census statistics are misleading because in the time periods you are quoting the Feds have added counties growing Rochester from 1 to 5 counties which artificially make it look like the metro is growing far more than it is.

okay, I said Rochester Sucks...and I admit it, and you can't take a JOKE!

First off, MSA's and all that Metro "area" bullshit defined by the Census bureau is garbage, and we have discussed that thru and thru here...and to be honest, I think we have all put more thought into it than the census bureau itself...locally atleast.

There have been 3 major economic blows since the 1950's...first was the Post WWII blow up and decline which was rapid into the 60's, that is what started the Buffalo depopulation trend, second was the Great white flight to the south in the mid 80's, followed by the recent Mexico/China hit that has pretty much cleaned up Ohio. Rochester has always been gifted of carrying the Kodak banner, a huge company that never moved out, they took Kodak for granted, all the sub-industries and support ventures are now realizing that they can't sit on their asses and expect growth in the company, and that is exactly what bit them in the ass. Kodak is going down hill, and honestly they are now more focused on Digital cameras than film, they are doing good with that finally, but at the cost of thousands of workers. Rochester's Economy has always been more clear to me, they are not any more White collar than Buffalo (thats Bullshit) they just held on to Kodak as long as they could, Xerox is gone, oh wait they have a tower with the logo on it...lol, gimme a break.

Now lets look at this like normal educated people instead of retards...
Buffalo and Rochester are cities bent on the same geography generally, same climate, ethnic construction, state wealth and region as well as Industries overall, in size they are similar and very close, they share history of the canal and the rails. The difference is Buffalo simply played its cards better in the early years because of a location difference of about 60 miles, it became a rail hub and a western terminus for the canal, not just a stop. Buffalo gained alot of steel jobs being on lake Erie, and also Buffalo's notorious reputaion as a grain center of North America...Buffalo really used the basic "industrial revolution" tools to jump up as one of the U.S.'s top 10 cities. As the industries moved west and south and eventually over seas, Buffalo could no longer complete due high tax burden and benifit and wage demands...so jobs obsolved or retreated. Rochester has seen a BIG decline from 1970 to 1980 55,000 people fled the city. Buffalo has lost 288,000 souls since its peak, or nearly one half of its population, Rochester has lost 113,000 people in just 50 years...or about 1/3 of its total city population. These are facts not guesses. Buffalo had a very big immigrant labor sector, one of the largest workforces in the US shared with the likes of Cleveland and Pittsburgh, those are the HUGE chunk of losses that Buffalo dealt with (rail workers, canal workers, steel mill operators, grain workers) These are the jobs that are pretty much obsolete now.

To compare Buffalo to Rochester can be both easy and hard, depending on how much you know...when the day is done and the moon is up, they are still two very different cities, two very different pasts...60 miles apart.

Buff City, I took umbrage at your comment originally because of the fact that I am Rochester born and raised, and I couldn't for the life of me figure out how "Rochester sucked." Or why that comment was forthcoming in the first place--other than the fact that it seems to permeate almost every discussion of the place on these pages.

My apologies to Steel. My diatribe should have been directed toward you, Buff City.

We can argue all day and all nite about the metro geographical demarcations, but the bottom line here is that they have been clearly delineated due to ADI, or "Area of Dominant Influence"--which are TV market designations that the federal government loosely follows, and which have great sway over the US Census Bureau. This is why The Twin-Cities Metro encompasses 7 or 9 counties--depending on which one you aspire to .

To hold Rochester accountable in some negative fashion for the fact that its ADI encompasses the counties that also show up in its Metro area, comes across as much ado about nothing. If this were some sort of anomaly perpetrated by the federal gov't on the poor, unknowing citizens of the Niagara Frontier, then I would have to go along with your rants and raves about it. But since it isn't--I don't.

On this same topic, I must congratulate you on the way in which you broke down the last 50-80 years in WNY. Right on the money, and well written and encapsulated.

Again though; (and not to be picky), why has Rochester experienced a BIG decline in population, while Buffalo has only "lost" 300,000 people? Certainly both have experienced substantial losses in population, but to downplay Buffalo's rate of decline (in your sentence at least), goes a long way to show the bias (written or unwritten) in how you approach this subject matter.

On the economic side Buff City, I would tend to agree with you on Buffalo playing its cards better in the early part of the century. Where you and I diverge though, is on the latter half of that same century.

Kodak may not have foreseen the trouble they were about to experience with the coming of the digital age, but in all reality they were no different than their counterparts in Buffalo who had their collective heads up their asses when it came to their ability to see what was happening to manufacturing jobs, most notably the steel industry, throughout the world. Remember Bethlehem Steel? They too still have a tower of sorts in Buffalo--unfortunately though--unlike Xerox Tower in Rochester--theirs is empty. Rochester didn't lose Xerox (the corporation), they simply lost the headquarters, due to antiquated NYS tax laws (and liberal Connecticut tax laws), not because of something the workforce in Rochester did or didn't do.

Unlike Bethlehem Steel, Kodak is rebounding; and the dismal Rochester economy is still less dismal than the Buffalo economy. Neither city can lay claim to having all that progressive a political climate, but what Rochester can lay claim to , is in having the most skilled workforce in the nation, and a business climate that supports and helps grow the technological industries that have sprung up as a net result of the lay-offs at Kodak and Xerox. What holds both back in attracting new industries, is the incredibly complex NYS tax laws, and the anti-business attitude of the NYS body politic, that should be doing something to correct the wrongs of the leaders that went before then, and the clear and unwavering bias towards the Downstate region.

You and I are probably never going to be asshole buddies, Buff City; but it would be nice if somewhere along the line you could see fit to beat up a bit less on a city that has already gone through a series of major disappointments, spanning back 40 year's, and who continues to try and bring itself back from the precipice of economic doom.

I have never been on here saying bad things about Rochester.

You are right the counties making up Rochester MSA have been growing by a miniscule amount, but your census statistics are misleading because in the time periods you are quoting the Feds have added counties growing Rochester from 1 to 5 counties which artificially make it look like the metro is growing far more than it is.

Steel, how is it that Rochester has only been growing at a miniscule rate? I'd call 3% or better annually, a fairly decent growth rate. Certainly not Sun Belt growth increases, but it sure beats the hell out of the sizeable decreases Buffalo and Erie County have shared every year since 1970.

The only other Upstate NY city that even comes close to Rochester's population growth (percentage-wise), is the Albany Metro. The Syracuse metro is declining at a somewhat rapid clip--Binghamton is going down fast-- Utica is dying a slow, painful death...need I go on?

Now let's take a close look at the statement you made above. My census figures are "misleading" because in the time periods I am talking about, the Fedshave mistakenly added five counties to the Rochester metro area? And your point here is what?

That the federal gov't. should have, a). left the entire Rochester metro area confined to just Monroe County? Talk about getting it wrong. Had they done that, they would be overwhelmingly guilty of tragically undercounting Rochester's metro population, or its area of dominant influence. Or, b). not included Wayne, Genessee, Livingston, etc.--when a great many of the people in those counties shop in, dine in, work in, subscribe to the D&C, and watch Channels 8, 10, and 13 for their local news? You're kidding, right?

For the sake of argument though, I DO think the feds should have broken up Wyoming County into two parts, with half going to Buffalo, and the other half going to Rochester. The same with Orleans. The same with the northern half of Cattaraugus Co... But to continue to insist that the federal government got it wrong, and that you know better--is both ideologically and statistically incorrect.

Now don't get me wrong here. I totally believe that there should be some tweaking of the counties mentioned above, in order to make the numbers a bit more fair and reflective of trends toward, or trends away from, the two cities in question. And you are absolutely right. Under this scenario, Buffalo would benefit, while Rochester would lose.

All of the other counties the US Census Bureau has put under the, "Rochester Metropolitan Statistical Area," leave no doubt whatsoever, that in each instance, those counties are within the shadow cast by the City of Rochester and its environs. The same, by the way, holds true for Buffalo.

I don't want to end this point of contention on a down note, but for some unexplained reason, you guys from Buffalo seem to have a burr up your ass about this city, especially when it comes to how "big" or "little" you'd like to see it be, and for the life of me; I can't figure out why it's such a big deal to you...

Yippee :banana2: Ithaca may be the last city on the list, but at last it made the list. :cheers:

I'm not getting into this Rochester vs. Buffalo debate, but I just want to correct something Malo said about Syracuse. The Syracuse metro went through a period of 6 years of decline 1994-2000. Every year since the 2000 census all indicators show that the Syracuse metro is now growing. Some statistics even show that Onondaga County is growing much faster than Monroe County lately. For example, the latest estimates are

Monroe County

2000 ~ 735,343
2004 ~ 735,177

Onondaga County

2000 ~ 458,336
2004 ~ 459,805

http://www.census.gov/popest/counties/tables/CO-EST2004-01-36.xls

The only reason Metro Rochester grew since the 2000 census is because Ontario County grew 3,000 during the last 4 years.

So the only metros that are growing in Upstate NY are Albany/Glenn Falls, Rochester, Syracuse and Ithaca.

I just did a bit on WNY, Upstate NY cities, and the only two that are GROWING...yes the cities, not the metro sprawl are Auburn and Canandaigua.

Rochester is not growing and I don't think the immediate (important) suburbs are not either.

This is some of the latest information I've found about Rochester and Buffalo population estimates. I think it does a good job of explaining the census numbers at hand...


Metro Area Factsheet: Rochester, New York MSA

Summary Metro Area Data (and Source)
Population (2003 CB est.): 1,101,218
Population (2000 Census): 1,098,201
Population Projection 2025 (FAIR): 1,192,000



METRO AREA POPULATION
The population of the Rochester Metropolitan Statistical Area (MSA) was estimated by the Census Bureau at 1,101,218 residents as of July 2003. That was an increase of 0.1 percent from a year earlier and an increase of 0.3 percent since the 2000 Census..

According to the 2003 Census Bureau estimate, the Rochester MSA's population had increased since July 2000 despite a population loss from net domestic migration (an annual average of about 4,835 more native-born residents leaving than arriving). That was offset by natural change (an annual average of about 3,605 more births than deaths) and net international migration (about 2,330 more foreign-born residents arriving than leaving). Therefore, immigration was the smallest component of population change, but it accounted directly for all of the metro area’s population increase over that period.

The Rochester MSA population is composed of the counties of Genesee (5.5% of the area's population in 2000), Livingston (5.9%), Monroe (67%), Ontario (9.1%), Orleans (4%) and Wayne (8.5%).

According to the 2000 Census, the population of the Rochester Metropolitan Statistical Area (MSA) was 1,098,201 residents. That was a 3.4 percent increase over the 1,062,470 residents in 1990. During the previous decade, the population of the MSA increased by 3.1 percent from 1,030,630 residents in 1980.

POPULATION PROJECTION 2025
The current rate of population change between 1990-00, if continued, would result in a population in 2025 of 1,192,000. That is 8.5 percent larger than the 2000 population of the Rochester metro area.



Source: http://www.fairus.org/Research/Research.cfm?ID=843&c=9


Now on to Buffalo:


Metro Area Factsheets: Buffalo-Niagara, New York MSA

Summary Metro Area Data (and Source)
Population (2003 CB est.): 1,159,443
Population (2000 Census): 1,170,111

Population Projection 2025 (FAIR): 1,123,700


METRO AREA POPULATION
The population of the Buffalo-Niagara Metropolitan Statistical Area (MSA) was estimated by the Census Bureau at 1,159,443 residents as of July 2003. That was a decrease of 0.1 percent from a year earlier and a decrease of 0.9 percent since the 2000 Census.

According to the 2003 Census Bureau estimate, the Buffalo-Niagara MSA's population had decreased since July 2000 because of a population loss from net domestic migration (an annual average of about 5,595 more native-born residents leaving than arriving). That was partially offset by natural change (an annual average of about 755 more births than deaths) and net international migration (about 1,695 more foreign-born residents arriving than leaving). Therefore, immigration was the second largest component of population change, and it was adding population to the metro area at the same time that it was losing native-born residents.

The Buffalo MSA population is composed of the counties of Erie (81.2% of the area's population in 2000), and Niagara (18.8%).

According to the 2000 Census, the population of the Buffalo Metropolitan Statistical Area (MSA) was 1,170,111 residents. That was a 1.6 percent decrease over the 1,189,286 residents in 1990. During the previous decade, the population of the MSA decreased by 4.3 percent from 1,242,826 residents in 1980.

POPULATION PROJECTION 2025
The current rate of population change between 1990-00, if continued, would result in a population in 2025 of 1,123,700. That is four percent fewer people than the 2000 population of the Buffalo metro area

I'm not so sure that what has taken place in either market, will continue unabated for the next 20 years. I would like to think that at some point here in the near future, that both Buffalo and Rochester will have started to pare down the decline they've experienced over the last 40....

I'm not getting into this Rochester vs. Buffalo debate, but I just want to correct something Malo said about Syracuse. The Syracuse metro went through a period of 6 years of decline 1994-2000. Every year since the 2000 census all indicators show that the Syracuse metro is now growing. Some statistics even show that Onondaga County is growing much faster than Monroe County lately. For example, the latest estimates are

Monroe County

2000 ~ 735,343
2004 ~ 735,177

Onondaga County

2000 ~ 458,336
2004 ~ 459,805

http://www.census.gov/popest/counties/tables/CO-EST2004-01-36.xls

The only reason Metro Rochester grew since the 2000 census is because Ontario County grew 3,000 during the last 4 years.


Well, according to the information I've been able to bring forth, your figures and mine are very close, Cicero.

Monroe County:

The 2000 Census recorded 735,343 residents in the County. That was three percent larger than the 713,968 residents in 1990. During the previous decade, the County's population increased by 1.7 percent from 702,238 in 1980.

COUNTY POPULATION
The population of Monroe County was estimated by the Census Bureau at 736,738 residents as of July 2003. That was an increase of 0.1 percent from a year earlier and an increase of 0.2 percent since the 2000 Census.

(ED. Note: Not much of an increase, but not the small decline your figures suggested)

POPULATION PROJECTION 2025
The current rate of population change between 1990-00, if continued, would result in a population in 2025 of 791,500. That is 7.6 percent more persons than the 2000 population.

(Ed. note: Looks like Monroe County can expect some growth during the next 20 years)


Onondaga County:

The 2000 Census recorded 458,336 residents in the County. That was 2.3 percent fewer people than the 468,973 residents in 1990. During the previous decade, the County's population increased by 1.1 percent from 463,920 in 1980.

COUNTY POPULATION
The population of Onondaga County was estimated by the Census Bureau at 460,517 residents as of July 2003. That was an increase of 0.2 percent from a year earlier and an increase of 0.5 percent since the 2000 Census

(Ed. note: It looks like you just may be on to something here, Cicero. That .05% increase doubles the increases Monroe County is seeing. For the sake of the Syracuse metro, I certainly hope so.)

Thanks for turning me on to some new data, Cicero. I had not seen these figures before. Glad now that I did. Anytime I see growth in any of the Upstate Big Three, it brings a smile to my face.

Sorry, I inadvertently left out the future projections for Onondaga County.

POPULATION PROJECTION 2025
The current rate of population change between 1990-00, if continued, would result in a population in 2025 of 432,800. That is 5.6 percent fewer persons than the 2000 population.

Malo, sorry to piss in your Wheaties, next time I'll pinch off early.

It is so easy to dream up and find little stats that might suggest that Rochester is going to one day be a bigger metro than that of Buffalo...but since 2000 census Rochester has really taken a hard hit from all the Kodak layoff...with normal regional layoffs and the substantial monore county tax, plus an idiot mayor, Rochester is screwed man, and here is my report...so cut copy and paste it everywhere. While I see projects, Urban infill and actual progress in Buffalo, I have yet to see "shit" from Rochester, abolutely nothing...and thats why I can't stand that damn mayor and all his stupid ideas.

how can a city which is smaller in size, density and population claim to have a metro area twice the size of a city which is bigger in every aspect? this makes no sense but for me to argue this point yet again would be redundant and shameful on your behalf.

maybe it's not a joke anymore

Malo, sorry to piss in your Wheaties, next time I'll pinch off early.

It is so easy to dream up and find little stats that might suggest that Rochester is going to one day be a bigger metro than that of Buffalo...but since 2000 census Rochester has really taken a hard hit from all the Kodak layoff...with normal regional layoffs and the substantial monore county tax, plus an idiot mayor, Rochester is screwed man, and here is my report...so cut copy and paste it everywhere. While I see projects, Urban infill and actual progress in Buffalo, I have yet to see "shit" from Rochester, abolutely nothing...and thats why I can't stand that damn mayor and all his stupid ideas.

how can a city which is smaller in size, density and population claim to have a metro area twice the size of a city which is bigger in every aspect? this makes no sense but for me to argue this point yet again would be redundant and shameful on your behalf.

maybe it's not a joke anymore


Well, Buff City, while you were pissing in my Wheaties, I was taking a crap in your Buffalo Bisons hat. And if you have a second, I'll try and give some, of what you gave to me, back.

On the numbers that were quoted? They were from the US Census Bureau. Not from the back of a Corn Flakes box. You have one of two choices here, Buff City. One; you can either look askance at the data provided by the federal government (like you haven't been for some time now...lol), or two; you can call them and argue your inane points with them all day long. I'm fairly certain they'll have nothing better to do than to refute the ridiculous claims you continue to make on Buffalo's behalf. Just be prepared to be very lonely...that's all I'm sayin'.

You might also want to check the information we all seem to be privy to when it comes to questions about the two cities population numbers. Buffalo is bigger than Rochester by about 70,000 individuals (city proper). It has a per sq. mile population density that is 300-400 person's greater than Rochester's, and it is a city proper that is only 6 sq. miles larger. Hardly twice the size...in any aspect--city or metro.

On Rochester being screwed? According to whom? YOU? Are you so naive' as to believe that one of the most important business centers in the United States will suddenly dry up and go away? Screwed? Hardly. In economic upheaval? Certainly.

While it is true that Rochester has had it fair share of business woes of late, but so too has Buffalo. The last 40 years in the Queen City is a testament to that. Do Rochester and Buffalo share in the ravages of the most dysfunctional legislature in the US? For sure. Have they both been hit hard? You betcha. But screwed? For good? No way.

Rochester's population losses have been half of Buffalo's for the last 30 years, Buff City. How long do you think the bleeding can go on in the Niagara Frontier before it causes significant population losses? Or are you blind to the fact that Buffalo continues to hemorrage bodies, to the tune of over 300,000 plus souls? Do you honestly think the Rochester metro doesn't have the chance to over- take Buffalo? I wouldn't bet the house if I were you...

I can tell you this: I grew up in and around Rochester. I also lived in Buffalo for a number of years. I liked both cities. Alot. Rochester however, is HOME.

Never in all the time I lived in Buffalo, did I feel as though I was living in a much larger city. And with the exception of Bills football and a couple of favorite restaurants, did I ever feel as though I was missing out on something that Buffalo had (and Rochester didn't), while I lived in Rochester. There were good neighborhoods and bad, nice people and assholes, great cityscapes in both cities, and an abundance of things to do in both.

The one over-riding factor about Buffalo that I didn't care for at all, was in the way the average Buffalonian would respond when you told them you were from Rochester. More often than not, they would tell you right up front that they didn't think much of Rochester, or Rochester people. After having lived in probably ten major cities in this country since then, I can honestly say that this is the only market in the country where I experienced this kind of outward rudeness and carelessness of thought.

The last point I would like to make, Buff City, is that while you see a plethora of things happening in Buffalo right now, your myopic vision has not seen fit to take in the new 18,000 seat soccer stadium, or the re-construction of the Troup-Howell bridge, or any of the planned (or under construction) residential projects in downtown Rochester. Or the development of the riverfront and harbour in Charlotte. Or the many beautification projects. Or the performance centre, bus station, and MCC campus that has every chance of making it to the construction phase. And I am certain that there are others.

I would hardly call any of them, "shit."

oops, Steel thanks for letting me borrow your Bisons hat. lol

I guess my only question for Malo is this....Do YOU honestly believe that Rochester's Metro stretches the the outter boundries of Orleans, Genesee, Livingston, Ontario and Wayne counties? for real?

It is very open now about what city you and I seem to pull for, but I am very confused as to why Rochesterians are so bent on being bigger and fatter than Buffalo...Rochester has not been bigger than Buffalo since like 1840.

In an attempt to close this city comparrison discussion on a good note, Malo regardless of how you like your Wheaties, Rochester is not hated by me by any means, infact it's still one of my favorites and always will be...and I admire the strong face you put on while defending the Flower City.

*Plus, when recovery starts for both cities, it will be interesting to see the new industries and ways they begin growth to reverse the brain drain and hold a steady tax base of industries.

In all my time in Buffalo I never heard anyone say anytyhing bad about Rochester. But then again I never heard anyone say anything about Rochester. I think that is what really bugs the people in Rochester the most.

I just bring up that fact that Buffalo's metro area is undercounted not only by loping off the Canadian part of the metro but also because there are many nearby counties which are not included with Buffalo which are definately Buffalo oriented.....and powiee i am jumped on as anti Rochester...sorry that is not the case.

Because Rochester has an inferiority complex with regard to Buffalo they are pissing in their pants with excitement that they will soon be a biger metro than Buffalo. So please don't get all hot and bothered when I point out that the statistics are misleading with regard to how close in size these two metro areas are. One drive through each town will clearly reveal that Buffalo is in reality much bigger than Rochester.

I think Malo missed the very interesting discussion we had on the issue a few weeks ago, perhaps someone can post the link to it.

oh wait, just in...North Tonawanda is now part of the Rochester MSA added to the likes of Binghamton and Utica...wtf

Rochester is much like the cities of Springfield, Worchester, Norfolk or Erie...you never hear shit about them...litterally ever.

oops, Steel thanks for letting me borrow your Bisons hat. lol

I guess my only question for Malo is this....Do YOU honestly believe that Rochester's Metro stretches the the outter boundries of Orleans, Genesee, Livingston, Ontario and Wayne counties? for real?

It is very open now about what city you and I seem to pull for, but I am very confused as to why Rochesterians are so bent on being bigger and fatter than Buffalo...Rochester has not been bigger than Buffalo since like 1840.

In an attempt to close this city comparrison discussion on a good note, Malo regardless of how you like your Wheaties, Rochester is not hated by me by any means, infact it's still one of my favorites and always will be...and I admire the strong face you put on while defending the Flower City.

First things first. I don't believe that I've ever run into, nor heard from, a Rochesterian wanting Rochester to be more, "Buffalo-like." If anything, Rochesterians would like their city to be more "Toronto-esque." After living next to Buffalo for all these years, and seeing the trial and tribulations they went through before us, I think the last place Rochesterians would want to emulate, would be Buffalo.

As I've said before, Buff City; metro area's are defined by Area's of Dominant Influence. In the case of the counties you bring up, they obviously are, or the Census Bureau would'nt have spent all that money years ago to do the research neccesary to come up with these standard definitions.

One recent example that springs to mind, is the I-390 corridor. Why, if Rochester isn't the defining influence in the counties you mentioned, would the State of New York waste millions of dollars building a road to Dansville, only to have no one use it. If you start out in Dansville any weekday morning, you can see hundreds and thousands of commuters emptying on to it--all heading for work (or shopping, or business in), Rochester. Not to be a smart-ass, Buff City--but they sure as hell didn't build this road as "the Gateway to Buffalo"--lol

I too want to end this discussion on a positive note, and it is my sincerest hope that the residents of both cities get the dupes they've elected, out of office, and get people in there who are actually concerned with the same things the citizens of their markets are. Only then will these two formerly great cities return to their original luster.

I will always root for both of these towns--their people, their businesses, and their way of life. I have to---I'm one of 'em..

I think Malo missed the very interesting discussion we had on the issue a few weeks ago, perhaps someone can post the link to it.

oh wait, just in...North Tonawanda is now part of the Rochester MSA added to the likes of Binghamton and Utica...wtf

Rochester is much like the cities of Springfield, Worchester, Norfolk or Erie...you never hear shit about them...litterally ever.

I agree with you on not hearing much about or from, Rochester---but, the same thing applies to Buffalo. Outside of snow reports, if you didn't have those plastered all over the TV set, you wouldn't even know it's there..

Most people in this country couldn't find either city on a map, in a bet.

This bulletin just came in from CTV News in Toronto: "Seems the Toronto, Hamilton, Kitchener, and St. Catherines Metro area's were just absorbed into Buffalo's MSA. Reporters on the scene are telling us that it was because Canadians were sick and tired of living in larger cities with higher employment rates, better standards of living, better health care, better schools, and cultural opportunities. In reality, it's been known for years what all Canadians have really wanted, which was to become Buffalonians, once and for all." Many also decried the fact that "Ontario" chicken wings just didn't have the same ring to it as Buffalo Wings...hence the change in the metro demarcations.

I just did a bit on WNY, Upstate NY cities, and the only two that are GROWING...yes the cities, not the metro sprawl are Auburn and Canandaigua.

Rochester is not growing and I don't think the immediate (important) suburbs are not either.


hey BC, I was wondering where you got this info. I'm pretty sure Ithaca also grew in population in the city as well as the metro.

In all my time in Buffalo I never heard anyone say anytyhing bad about Rochester. But then again I never heard anyone say anything about Rochester. I think that is what really bugs the people in Rochester the most.

I just bring up that fact that Buffalo's metro area is undercounted not only by loping off the Canadian part of the metro but also because there are many nearby counties which are not included with Buffalo which are definately Buffalo oriented.

Because Rochester has an inferiority complex with regard to Buffalo they are pissing in their pants with excitement that they will soon be a biger metro than Buffalo. So please don't get all hot and bothered when I point out that the statistics are misleading with regard to how close in size these two metro areas are. One drive through each town will clearly reveal that Buffalo is in reality much bigger than Rochester.

I too believe that the Buffalo metro is undercounted and under-represented--but not by the non-inclusion of the Canadian side.

Also Steel, as a born and raised Rochesterian, let me just say this. Rochester has no inferiority complex concerning Buffalo. None. Nor are most people in Rochester even aware of, a). Rochester's metro population, or, b). know anything at all about the two cities populations, or, c). all of the above. Also, to say that "one drive through both cities will reveal Buffalo's size superiority," is, in itself, also very mis-leading. And arrogant.

As though Buffalo is some giant metropolis, and poor Rochester is its tiny cousin. Please. Both are medium sized cities. Both are extremely similar in density per sq. mile, and both are within a couple of square miles of each other in city proper size. So how is it that Buffalo is the much bigger city of the two? Why, because you have a trolley down the middle of your Main Street and Rochester doesn't? Why, because your downtown has a few more buildings in it than Rochester's? And who the hell (outside of us lame-brains) could possibly tell?

Neither city was large enough to suport its own amusement park, so they decided to build in in-between the two. That should serve as a wake-up call to both Rochester and Buffalo as to what kind of markets they've been reduced to.

I too believe that the Buffalo metro is undercounted and under-represented--but not by the non-inclusion of the Canadian side.

This is simply untrue - St. Catherines is part of the Hamilton Metro, not the Buffalo Metro, That site is full of shit, it says that the Toronto Metro is 5.1 million where in fact the population of metro toronto just cracked 7.1 million (Toronto-Mississauga-Oshawa-Newmarket). Hamilton has 720,000 including St. catherines-Grimsby-Burlington. Buffalo is a larger city there is no doubt about it, there is also parts of PA that im told could justify being in the Buffalo MSA. Rochester has been trying to shadow itself with Toronto as mentioned before, they even ran a fancy ferry across the river, however they have a long way to go before being anywhere near Toronto.

This is simply untrue - St. Catherines is part of the Hamilton Metro, not the Buffalo Metro, That site is full of shit, it says that the Toronto Metro is 5.1 million where in fact the population of metro toronto just cracked 7.1 million (Toronto-Mississauga-Oshawa-Newmarket). Hamilton has 720,000 including St. catherines-Grimsby-Burlington. Buffalo is a larger city there is no doubt about it, there is also parts of PA that im told could justify being in the Buffalo MSA. Rochester has been trying to shadow itself with Toronto as mentioned before, they even ran a fancy ferry across the river, however they have a long way to go before being anywhere near Toronto.

It is true that St. Catherines is more aligned with Hamilton mostly because it is in the same country as Hamilton and people have similar issues to deal with being in the same country. My argument is that St Cat. and more so Niagara Falls and Fort Erie are on Buffalo's door step. Buffalo's malls, museums, theaters,sports venues and other urban ammenities are filled with Canadians. Just look at the parking lots at Galleria Mall any day of the week. There are always many Canadian plates on view. And in turn Buffalo people flock to nearby Canadian assets. Take a look at the license plates at Fort Erie Raceway someday. The place would not exist without Buffalo. You can freely use Canadian Currancy anyplace in Buffalo and you can use US currencey in Niagara Falls and Fort Erie. To say that 400,000 people on Buffalo's doorstep do not affect its economy and economic importance is to deny the facts. The same goes for the Niagara Region as well

If the purpose of counting metro regionall populations is to determine the reletive economic importance of an area then you can not ingore a portion just because of a boarder (unless it is like the iron curtain or the Korean DMZ). Why do you think Rochester is bending over backward to connect to Toronto. Rochester would love to be a suburb of Toronto. The city leaders of Toronto fully understand the tremendous natural advantage Buffalo has being adjacent to the largest population centers in Canada. Some day Buffalo will wake up and realize that too.


Night time (from botom tp top)
Buffalo, Niagara Falls, St Catherines then Hamilton, and Toronto
Some day this will be one continuous blob of light.
http://img76.echo.cx/img76/4818/buffaloatnite3fz.jpg

It is pretty clear that most of the population on this part of the Niagara Peninsula flows toward Buffalo and not toward Hamilton.

wz1,

I don't think Rochester is trying to be Toronto...they are just looking to expand commerce into one of the largest Metros in North America. The Ferry is a joke, that I agree and now my taxes, like those of every other New Yorker are going to go up because of "Johnson's Trophy".

As for St. Catherines, Buffalo may share the area commercially with Hamilton, but there is no doubt Buffalo influence there plus thats where most southern Ontario people get TV. Buffalo and Hamilton share St. Catherines like Rochester and Buffalo seem to share my hometown...batavia.

Rochester looks dark...oh wait they are gonna use the power bill cash for a Soccer stadium and a ferry ship. lol

nice night view of the area, Buffalo looks good against HUGE metro like Toronto.

wz1,

As for St. Catherines, Buffalo may share the area commercially with Hamilton, but there is no doubt Buffalo influence there plus thats where most southern Ontario people get TV.

Dude, not to rain on your parade, but i live in a basment appartment in Downtown Toronto and i get all the Buffalo TV stations with a set of rabbit ears.

Also the reason Buffalo shows up so well against Toronto a metro 7 times its size is due to Toronto being so dense, we have a greenbelt limiting grownth north, not only that, traffic is soo bad that going farther east and west would not be feasable, as it is the commuter trains, subway, go busses and streetcars are maxed. The city of Toronto itself, not including suburbs is 2.5 million.

Check it out

http://www.pbase.com/ciceroclay/image/33298932/original.jpg

I'm gonna make Rochesterians, Torontonians and Ottawans happy...

Buffalo Metro will only consist of the city of Buffalo and Amherst...thats all

This is simply untrue - St. Catherines is part of the Hamilton Metro, not the Buffalo Metro, That site is full of shit, it says that the Toronto Metro is 5.1 million where in fact the population of metro toronto just cracked 7.1 million (Toronto-Mississauga-Oshawa-Newmarket). Hamilton has 720,000 including St. catherines-Grimsby-Burlington. Buffalo is a larger city there is no doubt about it, there is also parts of PA that im told could justify being in the Buffalo MSA. Rochester has been trying to shadow itself with Toronto as mentioned before, they even ran a fancy ferry across the river, however they have a long way to go before being anywhere near Toronto.

Obviously, the joke went right over your head about the metro consolidation taking in Canadian cities, dude. And further; because Rochester had the idea in the first place to run a ferry over to Toronto, thereby linking the two cities together in a joint-economic/tourism venture, this somehow comes across to you as Rochester trying to shadow itself with Toronto? You're killin' me here! I guess you're damned if you do, or damned if you don't! Either way, ya can't win!

I can just see it now...."During a hastily called session of the Rochester City Council this afternoon, city leaders called on all area business people to forego having, or starting, any commercial ventures with anyone from the City of Toronto. Legislation passed today, would further restrict the two cities from forming any kind of business alliances, lest Rochester be thought of as trying to emulate Toronto--the penalty for which would be 6 months in Olean."

What do you think this is, WZ, a conspiracy? lol Sounds like two cities trying to share revenue to me. How dare they! lol

I'm gonna make Rochesterians, Torontonians and Ottawans happy...

Buffalo Metro will only consist of the city of Buffalo and Amherst...thats all


Not too sure what Ottawa has to do with anything, considering its about 400 KM away .. but Yes that would be good, myself a Torontonian, i do love Buffalo, infact it is one of my favorite american cities, Buffalo is rich in old style art deco skyscrapers that cannot even be found in places like Toronto, with the exception of the Royal York. I wish Buffalo had of stayed as large as it was back in its hayday and was as large as say Detroit, because it sure does have the potential. I just tend to get my nose in a knot when a country that will NOT ALLOW CANADIANS TO ENTER WITHOUT A PASSPORT when we have been for years, then tries to include parts of our country in a US Metro.

On a side note, the PBS station in Buffalo directly advertises itself as being WNED - Buffalo-Toronto on the watermark on the screen as well as on its website..

http://www.wned.org/images/graphics/topbarNew/02_tv_ro.gif

In my opinion if the US would be a little more loose with "border patrol" from the Dangerous Canadians, then i could see a Toronto-Buffalo Megalopolis movment such as the NYC-Philly one.

Toronto-Hamilton-Buffalo would make a population of around 9 million people.

Not too sure what Ottawa has to do with anything, considering its about 400 KM away .. but Yes that would be good, myself a Torontonian, i do love Buffalo, infact it is one of my favorite american cities, Buffalo is rich in old style art deco skyscrapers that cannot even be found in places like Toronto, with the exception of the Royal York. I wish Buffalo had of stayed as large as it was back in its hayday and was as large as say Detroit, because it sure does have the potential. I just tend to get my nose in a knot when a country that will NOT ALLOW CANADIANS TO ENTER WITHOUT A PASSPORT when we have been for years, then tries to include parts of our country in a US Metro.

On a side note, the PBS station in Buffalo directly advertises itself as being WNED - Buffalo-Toronto on the watermark on the screen as well as on its website..

http://www.wned.org/images/graphics/topbarNew/02_tv_ro.gif

In my opinion if the US would be a little more loose with "border patrol" from the Dangerous Canadians, then i could see a Toronto-Buffalo Megalopolis movment such as the NYC-Philly one.

Side note US Customs is not picking on Canadians. The fact is US citizens will have to show a passport as well to re-enter the US from Canada and Mexico

Side note US Customs is not picking on Canadians. The fact is US citizens will have to show a passport as well to re-enter the US from Canada and Mexico


My question to you is WHY? The US is such a Fu@@#D up country, while Europe, Autralia and the rest of the world are going opposite, open borders all across Europe, the US is locking it's doors. I can go to London England, Sydney Australia, Aukland New Zealand, Paris, and Rome with only a drivers license, but i cant go to Buffalo without a passport. Im sorry but thats just sad. Myself, i love the USA, but its this kind of attitude and activity that turns the world agains you guys.

The answer should be obvious. The US has a much larger border to protect, and a larger populace.

My question to you is, if all these other countries dont see a need, why do you? Perhaps because you enter so many wars? Maybee there are more people mad at you guys? Or your just scared ... Micheal Moore is soo right somtimes.. Duct tape.. ill never foreget that..

My question to you is WHY? The US is such a Fu@@#D up country, while Europe, Autralia and the rest of the world are going opposite, open borders all across Europe, the US is locking it's doors. I can go to London England, Sydney Australia, Aukland New Zealand, Paris, and Rome with only a drivers license, but i cant go to Buffalo without a passport. Im sorry but thats just sad. Myself, i love the USA, but its this kind of attitude and activity that turns the world agains you guys.

Canada has a very close link to other former British commonwealth countries. We would probably get special treatment in London if we put the Queen on our money too but we insist on puting the general that kicked their buts on our money.

Is it really true that you need only a driver's license to go to Rome and Paris from this continent?. I find that hard to beleive. I have not traveled to Europe for almost 10 years but back then I needed a passport for each country including coming back into the US

And yes the US is very afraid. A large chunk of the world has declared war on the US and has backed up its threats with a major attack killing 3000 Americans. Some day some of these so called open countries may get attacked in a similar way. Then we can fairly judge their actions against those of the US. And if these countries think they are imune form these kinds of fanatical attacks they are severely naive to the reality of the world and have not listened to what the fanatics are saying....Canada Included.

well I don't think turning this into a political argument is worth the time here, maybe in another forum, but lets look at how several Euro nations where guilty of harboring, aiding and helping terror states for example...Iraq, right up until the time we had to boot Saddam.

Europe has always had an appeasment policy towards each other, until the Germans roll over half of Europe and the Brits are faced with what is sometimes their own mistakes as well, Europe has nothing to brag about in regards to open borders and all that whoop-Laa...unless they wanna talk about the B-line the Germans always take to Berlin in the beginning of every war.

And this anti-american "we pick on the world" garbage...where was all the canadians, French, and so-called allies after 9/11...you all know damn well you stood there and said "OH SHIT" here goes the US and they are gonna kick some ass.

If its Toronto's money that makes parts of southern Ontario parts of US markets (Buffalo, Detroit) than so be it...but the differences in Ottawa and Washington are still a obvious.

Lancaster PA rocks!

portland, Maine is actually about 620,000, not 510,000, which makes it jump from 21st to 19th. i bring this up only because we are such a small city with such a large metro. I am wondering if this includes the Lewiston-Auburn area as well though? because 510 + 107 = 617, and L./A. is only 30-45 mins away. My source is emporis.com.

I think Baltimore has a lot more south in it than people think. If you look at the city itself, it is definitely northern. The layout, the density, the arhcitecture is all northern. But the people, why by no means Atlanta-southern, are certainly noticeably southern when compared to New Yorkers or Bostonians. Afterall, Baltimore recevied it's nickname Charm City because it's people had Southern Charm while living in a Northern City. But this is always a debatable subject. Afterall, during the Civil War Baltimore was a forced member of the Union...

But I mean, who would have thought that the country music station is the most listened to radio station in Baltimore?

I'd call that into question. Im pretty sure WERQ-FM trumps all Baltimore metro stations.

There have been a shitload of New Yorkers in the Wilmington area in the past 3 years.
I don't understand what's happening.


I'm tellin yous..
24,510,416 NYC-Philly Metro baby

FUCK THAT SHIT!!! Do you really think that Philadelphia wants to be a part of NYC??? It'll be a war between those two cities if that were to happen!!!

I have a question, but is the Scranton-Wilkes-Barre-Hazleton more affiliated with NYC or Phila??? And which sports teams do they support??? AS a matter of fact, go to my poll that I'm about to post and vote!!!

From my experience Baltimore and Washington are Northern. Sure, some Southerns, particularly from other parts of VA may have located to DC especially, but it's northern. To me, there really is not even reason to debate it.

As for country radio, well, pop (and what's left of rock) stations are fragmented into various formats... you have CHR (Top-40) and variations of CHR, you have AC (adult contemporary, you know the "#1 at work stations"), classic rock, alternative or "active" rock formats and now the Joe/Jack/Dave/Bob stations that cross decades of music in rock.

And then there is country, which is simply country. Some market may have a "new" country and more "classic" country, but country today is the mostly forgettable pop with a twang sound that is just as bad is its pop counterparts

pop and rock are listened to on several stations and your country option is on one, maybe two stations, well that country station may rank high because its audience is all on one station, not divided like the other music...
Sorry for the diversion, but just wanted to clarify....

I have never been on here saying bad things about Rochester.

You are right the counties making up Rochester MSA have been growing by a miniscule amount, but your census statistics are misleading because in the time periods you are quoting the Feds have added counties growing Rochester from 1 to 5 counties which artificially make it look like the metro is growing far more than it is.

Actually steel monroe county itself gaind over 22,000 people in the 90's. The outlaying counties only accounted for about 14,000 of that growth, and most of that was in the actuall full blown suburbia of Northern Ontario county (Victor, Farmngton, etc), Western Wayne Co. (Macedon, Gonanda etc.) and Northern Livingston co. (Caledonia, Avon). Every suburban municapilty in the Greater Rochester area marked population gains with the exception of Irondequiot. You seem to be one of those typical Buffalo lovers that seem to be "threatend" by Rochester or something for whatever reason. If population trends continue, Greater Rochester WILL exceed the Buffalo Metro eventually. But seriously. They are both good cities with lots of potential, great people, and great history. They should get along better. They are two of the closest metro areas to eachother, they need to work together to prospur.

They also dropped Gennessee County from Rochester's metro this year. And gave Batavia its own metro.

We're not threatened by Rochester, but always felt Rochester's statistical metro size is inflated while Buffalo's size is deflated from what we feel it should be.

You are right, eventually Rochester will probably exceed Buffalo's metro size but not for a decade or two at the snail's pace Buffalo is shrinking and Rochester is growing.

I also want to make a general point that if a city or its metro area is growing at a rate that is lower than the natural increase from birth (ie 1% a decade), then it really isn't growing. I saw a statistic that Albany grew by 6 people last year...to me that isn't growing, that is just a slower decline. And if SUNY Albany didn't open up "empire commons" housing development on campus to allow more students in, the city would've lost about 800 people. When metro areas bring in more people than it loses...then it is growing. This is the same principle with inflation...if you have a certain amount of money that isn't growing at atleast the same rate of inflation then it really isn't growing.

they wont work together because NYS makes them go to each others necks for a call center or car wash...and the places are way different on the inside.

Rochester will not have a greater Metro than Buffalo even if the Rochester trends continue...why, because right now, Buffalo is poised to gain population and jobs, while Rochester keeps falling apart at the mercy of a ship and a camera company.

Once you have hit Rock bottom you have two choices, rebuild or go into denial. Buffalo has been in denial for 30 years, and is just now starting to rebuild...Rochester will never admit it has yet to hit rock bottom, it's industry and commercial sector dying still...how many more before that admit they are going to hit rock bottom soon?

anyways, Buffalo is still a bigger, fatter, football, Hockey, dirtier, more photogenic, and polite place than Rochester will ever become...Rochester is just boring after being in Buffalo.

Rochester DID hit rock bottom, in 2003, everyone knows that. They aren't in denial about anything believe me. Rochester is poised right now to gain at least 2000 jobs DESPITE the kodak cuts. The university/strong health are adding lots of new jobs (don't ask me how or why, but they are) overall, Rochester's attitude is that they have hit rock bottom in 2003, and are now on a rebound. I think that some facelifts that are being worked on now (corn hill landing is my favorite by far) are really going to help give it a push forward toward the future. As far as politeness goes, I gotta cut you off there. Rochester has been rated the friendliest city something like 7 times in a row. If you want facts, greater Rochester donates more money to the national good (charaties, good will, salvation army etc.) per capita than any other place in America. But it's marginal, All of upstate probably has some of the nicest people in the country.

^ I don't have a problem with Rochester people...you are right all of upstate people outside of NYC metro are probably the friendliest people in the country including Rochester.

I don't think you can say Rochester hit rock bottom in 2003...you can't just put a single year on it...especially when outsiders can cleary see the opposite...As far as Rochester goes, I don't think it has hit rock bottom yet, some of your major companies are still laying people off and poised to lay off even more by the thousands.

I think every city claims it has hit rock bottom and rebounding...so I don't put a lot of stock in those types of claims until there are real substantial noticable changes. IE Cleveland claims to have had this major renaissance or whatever yet it is still declining worse than Buffalo and C-town was rated the poorest city in America. And this goes for my hometown of Buffalo which has claimed to hit rock bottom for the last ten years and is probably getting close to some kind of turn around. But when the cranes are above downtown Buff and downtown Rochester putting up skyscrapers, I will then say we have turned the ship around.

Both our cities are def taking steps in the right direction but I don't think either has really hit rock bottom yet...IMO Rochester is atleast 5-10 years away from hitting rock bottom.

2003 was the worst fiscal year. First quarter of 2005 marked the first significant expansion in over 10 years. That is all the proof I need.

FUCK THAT SHIT!!! Do you really think that Philadelphia wants to be a part of NYC??? It'll be a war between those two cities if that were to happen!!!

That was more of a joke. But actually, it would be more of a Baltimore-Washington thing.

"It'll be a war between these two cities?" What kind of stupidass comment is that?

That was more of a joke. But actually, it would be more of a Baltimore-Washington thing.

"It'll be a war between these two cities?" What kind of stupidass comment is that?

I'll apologize for that one, as I was a little bit hype on the "war" comment, but I still don't see Phila being a part of a metro area with NYC, even though trends have shown that the two metros are getting closer, and the Phila metro losing Mercer County, NJ to the NYC metro years ago. It's always been a rivalry between betwwen those two cities as I see it.

With all the commuting from Bucks to NNJ it's only a matter of time before:
Philly and NYC merge or
Bucks becomes part of NYC metro

the combination of metros is a dumb idea...no matter how close they are.

IMO, there should be more in depth research done to determine metros, transit reliant outlying areas and markets of each city.

rochester and buffalo are too far apart to be counted as one metro. there are way way to many cows and trailer parks between the two cities

DC and B'more have plenty of southern influence. To me, the region is the best example of mid-atlantic.

RANK MSA 2004

1 New York-Newark-Edison, NY-NJ-PA 18709802
2 Philadelphia-Camden-Wilmington, PA-NJ-DE-MD 5800614
3 Washington-Arlington-Alexandria, DC-VA-MD-WV 5139549
4 Boston-Cambridge-Quincy, MA-NH 4424649
4 Baltimore-Towson, MD 2639213
6 Pittsburgh, PA 2401575
7 Providence-New Bedford-Fall River, RI-MA 1628808
8 Hartford-West Hartford-East Hartford, CT 1184564
9 Buffalo-Cheektowaga-Tonawanda, NY 1154378
10 Rochester, NY 1041499
11 Bridgeport-Stamford-Norwalk, CT 903291


Now see, this I don't understand. How can parts of PA be in the New York MSA, while coastal Fairfield County, CT (Bridgeport, Norwalk, Stamford) is considered to be a separate MSA. Bridgeport, Norwalk and Stamford are much closer to NYC than anywhere in PA and there are definitely more people commuting from Fairfield County to NYC than from NE PA. I mean, come on, what maps are these guys looking at? I think they better look at their maps again.

And look how the Philly MSA includes DE. Wilmington is the Stamford of the Philadelphia MSA. Wilmington is to Philly as Stamford is to the Big Apple. Why is Wilmington worthy of being part of the Philly MSA, while Stamford is not worthy of being part of the NYC MSA?

Now see, this I don't understand. How can parts of PA be in the New York MSA, while coastal Fairfield County, CT (Bridgeport, Norwalk, Stamford) is considered to be a separate MSA. Bridgeport, Norwalk and Stamford are much closer to NYC than anywhere in PA and there are definitely more people commuting from Fairfield County to NYC than from NE PA. I mean, come on, what maps are these guys looking at? I think they better look at their maps again.

And look how the Philly MSA includes DE. Wilmington is the Stamford of the Philadelphia MSA. Wilmington is to Philly as Stamford is to the Big Apple. Why is Wilmington worthy of being part of the Philly MSA, while Stamford is not worthy of being part of the NYC MSA?

The CT suburbs are part of the NYC CMSA, yet since there are significant cities of their own right in SE CT they have their own PMSA, or share of the greater NYC CMSA. If this rank counted CMSAs you'd see the CT burbs included, and you'd also see DC and Baltimore in the same CMSA.

The CT suburbs are part of the NYC CMSA, yet since there are significant cities of their own right in SE CT they have their own PMSA, or share of the greater NYC CMSA. If this rank counted CMSAs you'd see the CT burbs included, and you'd also see DC and Baltimore in the same CMSA.

NJ also has significant cities of their own right that were considered separate PMSAs, yet these were recently made part of the NYC PMSA as were parts of PA. But the CT cities were left in a separate CMSA. That's what doesn't make sense.