Whilst reading the thread about the White Star Line building I began to think about the amount of derelict buildings within the city centre that are of a huge architectural merit.

Firstly, as i've questioned in the White Star thread. I am sure this building lies empty in a dominant part of the city, facing the waterfront. Surely the building could be converted into offices or apartments just like The Tower Building. Or the building could be used as a Titanic Museum.

Another excellent building that lies empty is the one on North John Street with the golden dome. This is a huge building and in the past I have heard of it being converted into a hotel. I think this is a perfect use for the building and could breathe a bit of life into Dale Street after office hours. I'm sure planning permission has been granted.

Facing Martins Bank there is a 2/3 storey building which looks very historical and grand, however it has lied empty for years. I'm not sure how big this building is but being on the same street as The Newz Bar, surely this place could be turned into something similar. Its a classy part of the city and could easily pull it off.

Back on dale street there are buildings on the junction with Sir Thomas Street that are boarded up. Again I have heard of a hotel conversion somewhere around this area but i'm not sure whether this is the actual site as nothing seems to be happening there.

If you know anything about these buildings or want to add buildings that i may have missed out then feel free to add on. Surely with the amount of development within the city it cant take too long for these buildings to be back in use. It seems such a waste to throw up rubbish within the city when there are so many fine buildings that could be brought back to life.

Ste,

I think that Albion House is at least partially occupied. It is in a great location so it shouldn't be that difficult to get tenants except the old problem that old office buildings don't meet modern requirements for air conditioning, computer flooring etc.
I like the idea of a Titanic Museum, it is very close to the Maritime Museum so there should be quite a few customers. Maybe the ground floor could be converted into a White Star themed pub or something.

The building with the gold dome is the old Royal Insurance headquarters - a really magnificent building. It was going to be converted into an Irish hotel but I haven't heard anything about it for a very long time. Again, its a building in the heart of the commercial quarter that really needs a new lease of life.

I think that Urban Splash will be opening a hotel in Westminster Chambers in Crosshall Street and the old Municipal Annexe is being renovated so these buildings should be being looked after.

I'm not sure what the building opposite Martins Bank is - have to look next time I'm in town.

It's an old bank in the style of an Italian palace. It has two heavy bronze doors with lions heads on them. It wouldn't look out of place on Castle St.

Is the municipal annexe the building i was talking about on the corner of dale st and sir thomas st? Or is it just apart of the Municiple Buildings? Is this going to be a hotel, i'm sure thats what i've heard.

Regeneration is happening so fast, I would think many of these buildings will be redeveloped.

May restrict certain uses though as Martin says.

Another problem with these old buildings is that they do not have an accessible entrance for disabled people. They may also have internal level changes or narrow doorways that cannot be altered.

The Disability Discrimination Act 1995 requires all service providers make their services accessible for disabled people. The fact that many of these buildings are listed means that it is difficult to convert these buildings into offices, bars etc, or anything other than apartments.

If the building is to be used to deliver a service or act as a place of work, then it must be fully accessible.

Another problem with these old buildings is that they do not have an accessible entrance for disabled people. They may also have internal level changes or narrow doorways that cannot be altered.

The Disability Discrimination Act 1995 requires all service providers make their services accessible for disabled people. The fact that many of these buildings are listed means that it is difficult to convert these buildings into offices, bars etc, or anything other than apartments.

If the building is to be used to deliver a service or act as a place of work, then it must be fully accessible.

Very true indeed this may be half the reason that some of the fine buildings in town have lain empty for some time - the cost of making them fully accessible is offset by cheaper more modern accomodation.

Could the council offer grants for ambitous developers? Must be able to offer some incentives for developers to improve what we already have before adding to what is there.

I quite agree with you Steve, there are some excellent buildings in the city that have been empty for some time. New development is important for the cities eveolving image but to bring life to the existing stock i believe is as important if not more so!

Looks like the derelict Shaw Street georgian terrace is about to see some action. One of the truly appaling sites, and what a bad impression it must give to anyone entering Liverpool centre along this street.

Shaw street application (http://councillors.liverpool.gov.uk/ieDecisionDetails.asp?ID=957)

Stunning row of houses they are. Not cheap mind - some of them have been converted into flats and one has been on sale since december: 1 Bedroom ground floor flat for £85000. And thats only as a shared ownership scheme!

Nice to see them being brought back to life, but thats way too much if you ask me. Especially considering the area has been plagued by pro's

Would people looking at these houses really want to make an offer with this sign outside their house?

http://img106.echo.cx/img106/7955/ss2cj.jpg

Presume its the burned out buildings that are going to get some attention?

http://img107.echo.cx/img107/4780/shawstreet612gx.jpg

http://img120.echo.cx/img120/1107/shawstreet719al.jpg

Looks like the derelict Shaw Street georgian terrace is about to see some action. One of the truly appaling sites, and what a bad impression it must give to anyone entering Liverpool centre along this street.

Shaw street application (http://councillors.liverpool.gov.uk/ieDecisionDetails.asp?ID=957)

That's really pleasing that because that's one of those little grot spots that has the potential to be beautiful,Georgian buildings always look good when they're cared for and I'm made up these ones are to see a new lease of life. :cheers:

OMG iv never seen those houses before. It realy disturbes me to think that those beautiful Georgan buildings that wouldnt look out of place in the west end of london have been allowed to decay as they have.

There has been some improvement in Shaw Street, but lots more to do :bash:

http://www.**************************/evertonshawstreet/images/shawst2.jpg

http://www.**************************/evertonshawstreet/images/shawst.jpg

http://www.**************************/evertonshawstreet/images/shawstwmhenryst.jpg

Hopefully the entire terrace can be rebuilt to fill the ugly gaps.
The recent application was for the white fronted part of the terrace only and that fragment remaining to the right which is/was a scrapyard.

http://www.123lcc.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/post/zEverton lockup Shaw St 2.JPG

How Bazaar, a scrapyard inside a Georgian terrace...!!! :bash:

Can the Woodentops not find a few quid to clean up the lock up?

Stick a plaque next to it or something explaining how it came to be part of Everton's badge?

You'd think now that the whole world is going to see them in the champions league, and that they're now set for millions of £££s of champions league money that they could afford to do something*


*Ha! Like they'll even get through the qualifiers!

Stunning row of houses they are. Not cheap mind - some of them have been converted into flats and one has been on sale since december: 1 Bedroom ground floor flat for £85000. And thats only as a shared ownership scheme!

Nice to see them being brought back to life, but thats way too much if you ask me. Especially considering the area has been plagued by pro's

Would people looking at these houses really want to make an offer with this sign outside their house?

http://img106.echo.cx/img106/7955/ss2cj.jpg

Steve, thanks for the tip off. I'll keep any eye out next time I'm down that way. ;)

As far as curb crawlers are concerned, hopefully the repopulation of the area would bring an end to that, as its only its wasteland state at present that makes it so popular for that kind of thing.

It really is bizarre you know, I once upon a time used in the council flats nearby. What a SHITHOLE. People being beaten up outside my flat, rubbish through the letterbox, you name it. Yet right next door posh flats and £85000 price tags. Funny old world and all that

I'm glad its going to be done up none the less. I saw that house you can see in Daves 3rd picture on sale at the local estate agents the other day for £185000, so someones obviously decided to cash in (though only when its on the point of TOTAL collapse and they're being faced with demands for remedial works by the council mind)

At one point in time that street used to be like that on BOTH sides. Shame.

The old army barracks on Everton Brow could do with a similar treatment soon as well. They've been derelict at least a good 20 years or more and are Georgian too.

They could do with getting that bloody mens hostel out of that corner site facing the lock up as well. I know these things have to go somewhere, but in there, the most sellable houses in the entire row?!?

totally agree send them off to croxteth

totally agree send them off to croxteth
Perhaps the Dog and Gun (ex) pub? :cheers:

yer good idea and apt probably, dogs with guns

yer good idea and apt probably, dogs with guns
It was closed down a couple of years ago because of drug dealing. Place looks to have had a couple of "accidental" fires recently :)

There was talk of appartments being built on that site.

It was closed down a couple of years ago because of drug dealing. Place looks to have had a couple of "accidental" fires recently :)

I remember going in there 20 odd years ago with my grandad when I was VERY young. Obviously things have took a turn for the worse just a wee bit there since then. :runaway:

I remember going in their 20 odd years ago with my grandad when I was VERY young. Obviously things have took a turn for the worse just a wee bit there since then. :runaway:
I was in there a few months before it was closed down. Saw nothing that made me think it was a den of iniquity. Good pub and the Britannia Chip Shop selling the biggest ever portion of chips you have ever seen for 80p, just across the road. And the Rooney homestead. F**k knows what the Man Utd Japanese tourists would have made of the area on their bus tour :) :cheers: :cheers:

Maybe letting a 7 year old in to drink wasn't a good sign in retrospect :lol:

Maybe letting a 7 year old in to drink wasn't a good sign in retrospect :lol:
Obviously, you're holding back your references until I respond in all ignorance:lol:
Here you go...................

Article in today's DP talks of local architects, Purcell Miller Triton, being given additional contracts to install a glass floor over the Minton tiles of St. George Hall, due for completion by the end of 2006, what a great idea.

Also they have just been awarded a £5m contract to refurbish the near derelict Florence Institute, the countries first purpose built youth club opened in 1889. This saga of the 'Florrie' has been running for quite a while but I have not heard any mention of a £5m refurbishment scheme?? I hope the DP have got their facts right. I think the Duchy of Cornwall own this building, I don't know how that came about, but is great news if factually correct.

Two great bits of news Doug,I can't see why the later story would be wrong so this is very pleasing. :)

Article in today's DP talks of local architects, Purcell Miller Triton, being given additional contracts to install a glass floor over the Minton tiles of St. George Hall, due for completion by the end of 2006, what a great idea.

Also they have just been awarded a £5m contract to refurbish the near derelict Florence Institute, the countries first purpose built youth club opened in 1889. This saga of the 'Florrie' has been running for quite a while but I have not heard any mention of a £5m refurbishment scheme?? I hope the DP have got their facts right. I think the Duchy of Cornwall own this building, I don't know how that came about, but is great news if factually correct.Excellent news, the Florrie is owned by the Duchy of Cornwall, who were willing to sell/see the building regenerated. :cheers:

Excellent news, the Florrie is owned by the Duchy of Cornwall, who were willing to sell/see the building regenerated. :cheers:

Here's the story here! (http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/business/news/tm_objectid=15521495%26method=full%26siteid=50061%26headline=firm%2ds%2dhistoric%2ddeal%2dcontract%2dfor%2dst%2dgeorge%2ds%2dhall%2dwork-name_page.html)

I think we need a zero tolerance to dereliction in the city.
There is one city in the states (whose name escapes me at the moment) which rules a substandard derelict building has to be either done up or knocked down within six months. Given that we still have one of the highest rates of vacant property in the country its hightime we adopted something similar.

Anyone seen that whole row of empty houses at the end of Edge Lane?
I regularly get coaches that pass along there and you can actually hear the comments of dissapointment that people make on being greeted by a sight like that as they come into the city.

We need to get a grip on this sooner rather then later.

I think we need a zero tolerance to dereliction in the city.
There is one city in the states (whose name escapes me at the moment) which rules a substandard derelict building has to be either done up or knocked down within six months. Given that we still have one of the highest rates of vacant property in the country its hightime we adopted something similar.

Anyone seen that whole row of empty houses at the end of Edge Lane?
I regularly get coaches that pass along there and you can actually hear the comments of dissapointment that people make on being greeted by a sight like that as they come into the city.

We need to get a grip on this sooner rather then later.Those houses on Edge Lane are quite grand, but unfortunalely i think they are to be demolished for the widened M62 contiuation.

Here's the story here! (http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/business/news/tm_objectid=15521495%26method=full%26siteid=50061%26headline=firm%2ds%2dhistoric%2ddeal%2dcontract%2dfor%2dst%2dgeorge%2ds%2dhall%2dwork-name_page.html) :cheers: Cheers Paul D. The Florrie is a great building, a reminder of some of the lost buildings that were abundant in this city.

Those houses on Edge Lane are quite grand, but unfortunalely i think they are to be demolished for the widened M62 contiuation.


Well I wish they would go ahead and do. They've been like that for years now.

Food for thought here. This reasonably well-informed article appears in today's Daily Telegraph. The piece is part of a campaign by the paper against the the demolitions planned as part of the Government's Housing Market Renewal Initiative. Several articles have appeared in recent months with a focus on the threat to historic neighbourhoods in Liverpool.

A Nightmare on Lime Street
(Filed: 21/05/2005)

About 20,000 old homes are to be bulldozed to make way for ugly, new rabbit hutches. And this in Liverpool, a city with a tradition of great architecture. The plan is lunacy, both economically and socially – and what makes it worse, says Charles Clover, is that there is a tried and tested alternative

Eddy Amoo knows something ministers and Liverpool city councillors don't. He knows how to bring life, elegance and wealth back to Toxteth, a mile and a half from the city centre. He is at ease with the sharp contrasts between glorious, Victorian architecture and municipal parks - and burnt-out houses, former drug dens and tinned-up windows.

Eddy was the lead singer in The Real Thing, a 1970s vocal group some remember as Britain's answer to the Temptations. Now, he is a property developer. The scars of Toxteth began to heal in 1997, when he and his brother bought Sunnyside House, a huge, Victorian mansion with a chequered history near Prince's Park. It had been left to rot. They bought it at auction for £30,000.

After Sunnyside House, they started on Princes Avenue, the grand, tree-lined boulevard that joins the restored, Georgian quarter of Liverpool to Prince's Park. Ten years ago, when you crossed Upper Parliament Street and entered Liverpool 8, you were entering bandit country. If you'd said you were buying a flat there, people would have laughed.

Eddy and his company eventually bought nine properties on Princes Avenue, a whole block, including one burnt-out wreck. It took him 18 months to find the offshore cowboys that owned it. "We thought we would pick it up for ten grand," says Eddy. The speculators charged Eddy's company £140,000. They knew what was going on in Toxteth.
Houses in Toxteth
Terrace houses in Toxteth near the site of the planned development

Liverpool city council still doesn't, even though the signs are everywhere that this great city is at last beginning to awake after its days in economic coma in the 1970s and 1980s. House prices have peaked in the South and overheated in Dublin, where eyes traditionally look to Liverpool, and a tide of money is now flooding in.

Money is facelifting the tawdry gateway to the city at Lime Street station and delving out the foundations for the vast Paradise Street retail development that the Grosvenor estate is building in the commercial district, due to be ready by the time Liverpool becomes European Capital of Culture in 2008.

Money is even lapping into the inner city itself. Tom Dears, a chartered surveyor who handles properties in Toxteth, says the past two years have seen intense speculation, with people buying derelict terrace properties at auction without seeing them. Prices have risen by more than 20 per cent in the past year and are now consolidating. But he is confident that Liverpool's property market still has a way to go. And he means up.

Yet, just as you thought it was safe to go back into the market, a terrible creature is stirring. Let's call it Freddie, after the monster in Nightmare on Elm Street. Only this time its hands are bulldozers, not knives, and the film that looks to be showing is Nightmare on Lime Street.

Liverpool has seen plenty of compulsory purchase and demolition in the past. The city cleared swathes of Georgian sea-captains houses round Scotland Road in the 1960s for a motorway that was never built. The miserable rabbit hutches that were eventually put up there are now battered or burnt out and already need replacing.

History doesn't seem to count for much here, though fragments of it are everywhere. The housing market renewal "Pathfinder" scheme, New Heartlands, set up by the Deputy Prime Minister, John Prescott, plans to compulsorily purchase and demolish hundreds of Victorian terraces just off Princes Avenue, known as the Welsh Streets. Ringo Starr was born on one of them. New Heartlands, dubbed New Heartbreak by Liverpool wags, has also drawn up plans for four major housebuilding companies, in partnership with housing associations, to clear-fell swathes of Edge Hill, Kensington, Bootle and Anfield.

In total, 20,000 homes, many of them currently occupied, are due for destruction on Merseyside, more than anywhere else in the country and more than Hitler managed to destroy in the city in the whole of the Second World War. Some residents believe the new homes will be an improvement; the smarter ones are resisting.

Pauline Davies, chief executive of New Heartlands, is holding to the line that the demolitions are necessary. She says the population of the city has dropped and there are more two-up two-down terraces than people want. She insists that the rise in house prices in the city is a speculative bubble which may burst. She says the areas for demolition were chosen because they were "high stress" - some were among the poorest wards in the country. So was Spitalfields, I say, when I moved there 25 years ago. It is now one of London's most desirable addresses. She replies that the two are not comparable.

Ms Davies is clearly right that the past two years have seen speculation in the housing market, but all the signs are that the gains made are as real as anywhere else - because they come from such a low base. Her faith in new housing schemes, however, seems naïve, given the dismal examples all around.

The city's planners and public sector developers have forgotten that architecture is one of Liverpool's greatest assets. This is bizarre, because the most celebrated landmarks of Liverpool's urban renaissance to date are schemes which have found new uses for some of the city's great Georgian and Victorian buildings.

Witness the fabulous modern interiors which have been created at the Hope Street Hotel, without doubt the North-West's finest boutique hotel, established within the walls of the 19th-century London Carriage Works. Or take the homegrown Liverpool flair that has gone into creating the apartment block known as The Albany from a Grade II* listed office building in the city centre, leaving all its Victorian doors, ironwork and mouldings in situ. If building on the past is good for the top of the market, why is it not also good for the long-suffering communities of Anfield or Toxteth?

The supposed point of all this planned demolition is to address market failure. But the policy has outlived the period of empty homes it was invented in. Chris Nisbet, developer of The Albany, told me that the battered Victorian buildings of Toxteth are precisely where you are going to see the market moving next, because prices are 30 per cent of what they are in the Georgian quarter or the city centre. As a developer, he sees mileage in doing up the old stock.

Mr Nisbet and I go to Ducie Street, a lovely street now boarded up just off Princes Avenue and part of the Granby triangle, the place where the Toxteth riots started in 1981. It is shocking to see how little has changed.

Mr Nisbet runs his skilled quantity surveyor's eye over Ducie Street and says that he could do up even the ones with no roofs for £30,000. "The biggest cost these days is bricklaying," he says. "If you can get stock that is structurally sound, strip it bare and put double-glazed windows in, you could do up any property in Liverpool for that."
A Liverpool 8 street party in 1945
A Liverpool 8 street party in 1945

This means that you could buy one of these terraces on the open market for £40,000, do it up, sell it off as one of the "affordable" homes John Prescott says the country needs, and still make a profit. This is not mere fancy. The makers of Tonight with Trevor McDonald did just this, refurbishing one derelict terrace home for £24,000 - had the rest of the street been renovated to a similar standard, the house would be worth £85,000.

That isn't quite what Liverpool City Council, which owns 200 out of 250 properties in the Granby triangle, has in mind. It was planning to demolish the lot. But then I hear of a mixed, part demolition, part heritage regeneration scheme being planned. Urban Splash, probably the country's most innovative regeneration company, has decided to put in a bid for the scheme, with Eddy Amoo.

Urban Splash started in Manchester 10 years ago. Since then it has made a success out of such problem buildings as Lister Mills in Bradford and the Royal William dockyard in Plymouth. It is about to put a slice of blue, modern glass through Fort Dunlop in Birmingham. It is also about to turn streets of back-to-back Coronation Street houses in Salford into desirable, innovative starter homes - without knocking them down. Yet it has won relatively little work in Liverpool. A director tells me he has no idea why. I'd say it was a bit like the aldermen of 1840s Glasgow having a down on Greek Thomson.

I am the bringer of more bad news for Urban Splash and Eddy Amoo. I have discovered from the council that their bid has been turned down, though a year after tenders went out, the council has not actually informed them of this.

You get the impression that if it were left to the private sector, Granby Street would have the scaffolding outside by now, instead of waiting for the bulldozers some time in 2008. The Granby Triangle is one of many places in Liverpool where the market is literally being depressed by the so-called housing market renewal initiative.

In order to assemble land for its grandiose redevelopment schemes, the Pathfinder has been offering to buy property from worried residents who feel that the fabric of life is collapsing under the blight the Pathfinder is causing. The Pathfinder offers well under the price the properties are going for at auction, actually dragging the market down, because the bureaucrats don't want to waste public money paying the right price.

In fact, wasting public money is assured, because instead of doing up properties for a maximum of £30,000, the Pathfinder is buying houses for £30,000-£40,000, demolishing them for £17,000, building another one for at least £80,000, using a large but as yet unquantifiable grant from Mr Prescott. Cost to taxpayer: up to £107,000 more per home than just doing them up. Sooner or later some auditor will work out that this amounts to a titanic waste of taxpayers' money.

While that happens, a lot more people are beginning to ask why Britain needs the heavy hand of a philistine, dirigiste bureaucracy smashing its way across the face of its northern cities. Could the rising market not renew the urban fabric much better, and with far less heartache for the people who live there, for the price of a few improvement or "enveloping" grants?

Among the doubters is Phil Woolas, who was deputy leader of the house before the general election, now a senior figure in the Deputy Prime Minister's office. Mr Woolas increased his vote in Oldham East by saying he would oppose plans for the compulsory purchase of perfectly good homes in Derker.

At least 25 Labour MPs have expressed misgivings. The ODPM select committee says: "If there is strong evidence that the rise in housing demand is sustained… the Pathfinders should review their demolition programmes as a matter of urgency and concentrate on neighbourhood management and housing refurbishment." And blow me down if the architect of the housing market renewal policy himself, Professor Brendan Nevin, hasn't called for a rethink, saying that it should be "more imaginitive".

Sorting out the vandals, the schools and the buses and handing out refurbishment grants was what was recommended by John Prescott's original Urban Task Force.

Professor Anne Power, of the London School of Economics, a member of that task force, told me it was all about confidence and marketing: "If these streets were remarketed as historic neighbourhoods with improving assets, schools, buses shops and so on, we would be able to attract people who are looking to move into these areas." Amenity groups agree that a much lighter hand is needed along with greater spending in the public domain.

Bill Maynard, a director of Urban Splash, says a more imaginative, market-led, bottom-up approach would be "more appropriate to Liverpool's historic housing stock and to people's aspirations". He agrees that it would be possible to achieve the same ends with a liberalisation of Liverpool's housing market - selling off derelict former council properties to local people or small developers - people such as Eddy Amoo, for example - under an overall local authority plan. But the council seems to be scared of market solutions.

Mr Maynard hands me a copy of a BBC television programme of 1964, called The Rape of Utopia. It starts off with an interview with T Dan Smith, promising that wonderful new homes would be built on Tyneside - then shows the tawdry rubbish that got built by Smith's cronies. "It was all twaddle and we fell for it," says Mr Maynard. I think that is his way of saying don't get fooled again.

Excellent article Awayo I'm totally against the demolition of our Victorian Terraces and would love to see them upgraded for modern day living.

Yeh i agree with keeping them too, But maybe there just isn't the market for these types of houses anymore. But perhaps there is the market for more upmarket properties. Its sad to think this may well be true. I guess theres no idea that these new homes can be built to create a new city town/suberb?

The thing is,the land value around Toxteth could make a killing for the council and they'd sooner throw away heritage for profit and it's pure greed and shortsightedness in my opinion.:down:

I for one would buy straight away a property off the council in Ducie Street, they are responsible for killing of Toxteth, Kenny and Anfield and replacing them with crap no character housing for dolelights

Urban Splash would no doubt do a great job of improving the Granby triangle housing, without the need to demolish. Even though it looks derelict now, the houses are great, and would be quality when done-up. I'm dissapointed my taxes are going on this wastefull experiment of demolition of and rebuild.

I for one would buy straight away a property off the council in Ducie Street, they are responsible for killing of Toxteth, Kenny and Anfield and replacing them with crap no character housing for dolelights

I'd have one too. The housing market these days is frigging stupid. People can't afford to buy homes at realistic prices, yet our spasticated shitty council are sitting on empty housing stock, letting them go one by one and keeping the market artificially inflated. It really does take the piss when a person pays eighty thousand quid at auction for a house with rat, cockroach, damp and structural problems- and think they're getting a bargain.

Give me one of the out of date, stockpiled houses in the Granby area and I'll do it up nicely. I'd have somewhere nice to live, the council has council tax rolling in, the area has part of its history and character retained and everyone is happy.

So all in all, FUCK OFF STOREY YOU ARSE LICKING TWAT! :rant:

Awayo should e-mail that article to Mike Storey.

I'd have one too. The housing market these days is frigging stupid. People can't afford to buy homes at realistic prices, yet our spasticated shitty council are sitting on empty housing stock, letting them go one by one and keeping the market artificially inflated. It really does take the piss when a person pays eighty thousand quid at auction for a house with rat, cockroach, damp and structural problems- and think they're getting a bargain.

Give me one of the out of date, stockpiled houses in the Granby area and I'll do it up nicely. I'd have somewhere nice to live, the council has council tax rolling in, the area has part of its history and character retained and everyone is happy.

So all in all, FUCK OFF STOREY YOU ARSE LICKING TWAT! :rant:

Bunny, you should also send off your post to Mike Storey.

May be best to the leave the last bit off though. ;)

Bunny, you should also send off your post to Mike Storey.

May be best to the leave the last bit off though. ;)

Or just send the last bit! :cheers:

Or just send the last bit! :cheers:

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

This is all very wrong. There's nothing actually wrong with the existing houses, they're well build and are not falling down. Justification for this scheme is remarkably poor ie 'Everyone wants a garden' & 'the cities population has decreased'. They must think we're stupid! Firstly, not everyone is arsed about a garden. Seondly there are plenty of houses with gardens, if you can afford one, move house, if not you'll have to wait until you can for the time being. For most people trying to get onto the property ladder, that won't be a big issue these days as property is expensive enough. I for one would love to have on of those houses. Toxteth's really not that bad. I'd pick Toxteth over Speke that's for sure and it's close to downtown.The excuse that the city's population has decreased ovr the years has no merit. Firstly. we lost most of these to Knowsley, Sefton Halton & West Lancs in other words just outside the city boundary. Secondly, most of us want to see the city's population increase once again. Turning Toxteth into Norris Green is not going to attract more people to stay here. This must be stopped as once the mistake has been made, we can't undo it.

This is all very wrong. There's nothing actually wrong with the existing houses, they're well build and are not falling down. Justification for this scheme is remarkably poor ie 'Everyone wants a garden' & 'the cities population has decreased'. They must think we're stupid! Firstly, not everyone is arsed about a garden. Seondly there are plenty of houses with gardens, if you can afford one, move house, if not you'll have to wait until you can for the time being. For most people trying to get onto the property ladder, that won't be a big issue these days as property is expensive enough. I for one would love to have on of those houses. Toxteth's really not that bad. I'd pick Toxteth over Speke that's for sure and it's close to downtown.The excuse that the city's population has decreased ovr the years has no merit. Firstly. we lost most of these to Knowsley, Sefton Halton & West Lancs in other words just outside the city boundary. Secondly, most of us want to see the city's population increase once again. Turning Toxteth into Norris Green is not going to attract more people to stay here. This must be stopped as once the mistake has been made, we can't undo it.

Back to that old boundary problem again.
Solution: move it. :cheers:

Back to that old boundary problem again.
Solution: move it. :cheers:

That's what I was thinking in reply to a similar post somewhere on this forum.

seriously lets send some of this to mike storey and see what response we get? what about it? we could all have a house on Ducie Street, cool hey!

Do you think if a group of us, say around 20, formed an association would the council be prepared to speak to us then? We'd offer to take residence in one street, for a nominal fee and refurbish the lot to a suitable standard, attract more people to our group and spread like a cancer throughout the neighbouring streets, eventually establishing a close knit community akin to the Eldonians, albeit in nicer houses? :cheers:

Do you think if a group of us, say around 20, formed an association would the council be prepared to speak to us then? We'd offer to take residence in one street, for a nominal fee and refurbish the lot to a suitable standard, attract more people to our group and spread like a cancer throughout the neighbouring streets, eventually establishing a close knit community akin to the Eldonians, albeit in nicer houses? :cheers:

A sensible and feasable idea but whether they'd listen is another thing. :cheers:

Heared on radio Merseyside that Illiad are to start on Elysian fields on Colquitt St within the next 2 weeks, so that should mean the demolition of the ugly 70s college building soon. :cheers:

Heared on radio Merseyside that Illiad are to start on Elysian fields on Colquitt St within the next 2 weeks, so that should mean the demolition of the ugly 70s college building soon. :cheers:

Thats excellent news, it will be an interesting development and further improve the Rope Walks area.

Heared on radio Merseyside that Illiad are to start on Elysian fields on Colquitt St within the next 2 weeks, so that should mean the demolition of the ugly 70s college building soon. :cheers:

Fantastic,I love this building and despise the pile of crap it's going to replace so that's a double bonus. :cheers:

Has this been given the go-ahead without the ground floor retail and gym area? :?

Heared on radio Merseyside that Illiad are to start on Elysian fields on Colquitt St within the next 2 weeks, so that should mean the demolition of the ugly 70s college building soon. :cheers:


Brilliant. :cheers:

http://www.andrewlouis.co.uk/home/resources/cybot/searchphoto.aspx?filename=/home/resources/images/newdevelopments/images/Elysian-Fields1918022005.jpg&width=200&keepaspectratio=1&bordercolor=ffffff&bordersize=1&sold=0

Image of Elysian Fields... coming to Liverpool soon

Yes, planning approval was given for the development with one Mike less than proposed. I think they dropped the leisure planned for the development.

Smart looking building. :cheers:

Bunnyman I think you are right lets do it and see what we can achieve, ok we could call it the Granby Triangle Trust???, lets change the future

Some use sought for historic church on Parliament st. About time, there has been fencing around the perimiter walls of this church for years.

see link here (http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0100regionalnews/tm_objectid=15605167%26method=full%26siteid=50061%26headline=fight%2don%2dto%2dcreate%2duseful%2drole%2dfor%2dhistoric%2dchurch-name_page.html)

Some use sought for historic church on Parliament st. About time, there has been fencing around the perimiter walls of this church for years.

see link here (http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0100regionalnews/tm_objectid=15605167%26method=full%26siteid=50061%26headline=fight%2don%2dto%2dcreate%2duseful%2drole%2dfor%2dhistoric%2dchurch-name_page.html)

I think my dad will be pleased about that. It's where he was born and went to school at St. James'

I am sure there used to be an Eldon Grove thread on this forum once,
but I can't find it. So I'll post these pictures here.

16th October 2005.

http://www.liverpoolviews.co.uk/north/eldgrove/eldonst1.jpg

16th October 2005.

http://www.liverpoolviews.co.uk/north/eldgrove/eldonst2.jpg

Last one from today - 16th October 2005.

http://www.liverpoolviews.co.uk/north/eldgrove/eldonst3.jpg

Great pics A.D it's great too see these old buildings brought back into use again. :)

These are an amazing group of building, great pics, love the old gas street lamp. Is this one of these really slow development's, the roof's and chimney's all look repaired, is there much building activity going on.

Since I was last in the area, Jan 2005, not an awful lot seems to have changed. Weeds have got a little bigger but not much else!! And the cocky watchman kept his beedy eye on me whilst I was there.

I like Eldon Grove.

I know time marches on but it seems to look like a nice place to live and in it`s day rather better than many places.

Pity that the Kingsway Tunnel approaches rather cut it off.

George Kountis who owns Eldon Grove has a few "issues" with his bank presently. Hopefully things will sort themselves out shortly.

BTW If you fancy a birrov Greek, he has a restaurant in Parr Street http://www.theparthenon.co.uk/ :cheers:

Great views from the top :cheers:
http://www.**************************/eldonaug2004/images/eldon027.jpg

http://www.**************************/eldonaug2004/images/eldon021.jpg

http://www.**************************/eldonaug2004/images/eldon029.jpg

The rest of them are over at:
http://www.**************************/eldonaug2004/index.html

Have noticed the extra scaffolding around the Church of Scotland building on Rodney St, does this mean some action on this building.

Have noticed the extra scaffolding around the Church of Scotland building on Rodney St, does this mean some action on this building.

It probably means that the building is getting weaker and is about to fall down and it needs more scaffolding to hold it up.

It has recently been successfully CPOed by the council. They are probably just doing to emergency repairs to ensure that the structure is safe.

It's been reported that LCC is in talks with JMU about uses for the building. Years ago JMU wanted to take it over and connect it to their Aldham Robarts learning centre behind. Good plan I think.

The agenda for the next planning meeting reccomends approval of a scheme on Duke St/Suffolk St. This is a regeneration/new build scheme, which has a rendering of the development on site. The ongoing regeneration of Duke street continues.

Duke St/Suffolk St (http://councillors.liverpool.gov.uk/Published/C00000307/M00004708/AI00021654/$Item838690DukeStreetL1.docA.ps.pdf)

More good news for St. James church.


http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0100regionalnews/tm_objectid=16466551%26method=full%26siteid=50061-name_page.html#story_continue

Rear of the long derelict and decaying Shaw St terrace, something is going on with the derelict end block of the other mostly restored terrace further down the road, as the front is shored up, but the side has been partially demolished/fallen down...!

http://img448.imageshack.us/img448/7421/zshawstreetterrace13zh.jpg


This is a new smallish but very modern development going on further along, near the Everton lock-up.

http://img303.imageshack.us/img303/4136/zshawstreetapts8lg.jpg

What has happened to Everton over the last thirty years is a crime.
As we keep on saying, whilst we wank around with WHS and crafting fantasy cornicelines and townscape characterisations, what is actually vital to Liverpool and should be kept is falling down around us still.

This terrace is beautiful and you would think would have been restored by now...is there a bastard RSL somewhere in the wings waiting for 100% grant?

Are there any plans to restore the terrace pictured above? Looks as though it might be too far gone. Hope not.

Don't know whats going on with this terrace, but i know the end chunk of it has been restored for some time now and looks very smart. It shouldn't be hard to restore this terrace, even if it means adding a modern develompent onto the rear. They kept the front only when they restored Russel St, and carried out a good job there. Shaw St will look great, and will have some life if this terrace is developed.

This block looks like it is soon to be developed. The developer owns most of it and plans to demolish and rebuild the facade, this should also fill the gap in the block, shown below.
http://www.123lcc.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/post/zEverton%20lockup%20Shaw%20St%202.JPG

One of Scouserdaves pictures, showing the whole block. This is ideal for a modern block behind the retained facade.
http://www.**************************/evertonshawstreet/images/shawst.jpg


See link to planning details here (http://councillors.liverpool.gov.uk/Published/C00000282/M00004566/AI00023745/$ShawStreet.docA.ps.pdf)

Hopefully there will be enough spare material left over to complete the rest of the missing terrace, all the way along Shaw Street, that would be an impressive sight, similar to what they have done here.

One of Steve C's pictures
http://img120.echo.cx/img120/1107/shawstreet719al.jpg

Great news although that is a scary part of the city the area is full of muggers and prostitutes.

I think it's a great part of the city if you know where to look. I'm hoping that all of Everton's decent architecture can be saved and brought back to life.

This is one of those grot spots that has the potential to be beautiful but is left to rot and it's fantastic that it is about to be redeveloped again. :cheers:

Couple from The Dingle


The long rotting Florence Institute.
http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/53/ztheflorenceinstitutedingle9ul.jpg

And a Church up the side street from the Florence Institute.
http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/9761/zburntoutuproadfromflorence28w.jpg

I'm hoping that the Florrie has a good chance of being saved. This website gives details of the campaign to rennovate it:

http://www.savetheflorrie.org.uk/

For more details about the Wellington Road chapel see:

http://www.toxteth.net/places/liverpool/churches/wellington%20road%20chapel.htm

Cheer's for the link's Fitzroy. :cheers:

I didn't know the Wellington road chapel existed, but do remember seeing a massive plume of smoke from a distance when this building was set on fire a few years ago.

Hopefully this can be converted into something, the Florrie looks to have much more hope of being saved.

The courtyard of the no longer derelict Albany Building on Old Hall St.

http://img472.imageshack.us/img472/6721/zalbanycourtyard18va.jpg
note Unity just visible in the background.

Looks pretty class, very European, I like it.

The redevelopers have done a great job there.

Wolstenholme Sq, old derelict buildings gaining a new lease of life. This Square will be great when/if fully developed.

http://img438.imageshack.us/img438/8363/zwolstenholmesq14pe.jpg

Must get a better picture of this when the sun is hitting it full on
http://img331.imageshack.us/img331/5121/zpenelopysculpture13vb.jpg

This building on Duke St need's some attention E.H. (Wolstenhome Sq is behind this)
http://img312.imageshack.us/img312/7673/zseelstwolstenhomesq6hq.jpg
That carpark site just to the right could be developed also to build the street line back up. With more than enough underground carspaces also.

Right 2.30am, must get to sleep now, even though i've got a cold/sore throat/chills/fuzzy head coming on and probably wont sleep anyway. :puke:

Hope you are feeling better soon Jux.

That first picture shows a definite improvement,Juxt I was like that last week and if it's the same thing you'll be laid out for a week,get well soon. :)

Wolstenholme Sq. always disappoints me, it should be full of bars and cafes that are open during the day, most times when I walk up there it's deserted and doesn't feel very welcoming, so it's great to see that refurb going ahead.

Wolstenholme Sq. always disappoints me, it should be full of bars and cafes that are open during the day, most times when I walk up there it's deserted and doesn't feel very welcoming, so it's great to see that refurb going ahead.
i think as the area around it builds up and residential developments take place around it it should become a more vibrant place

There are a number of interesting buildings in London Rd and Pembroke Place being renovated after many years of deriliction. The big Victorian building that used to be the cinema then roller rink is being redeeloped, as is the pub opposite TJs' on Pembroke Place.

I have also heard that the owners of Galkoffs butchers are in discusson with EH (they DO have a proper role to play, if they keep to it) about possible redevelopment and use! The area behind the buildings is fascinating. I used to work for James E James many years ago and there used to be loads of interesting buildings hidden down tiny back streets there, mainly lost, but a few remain... one person said there are remains of an old coourt, but I can't see this!

A new florist and a restaurant have opened up a little further up on Prescot St, the florist in the Georgian building.

There are a number of interesting buildings in London Rd and Pembroke Place being renovated after many years of deriliction. The big Victorian building that used to be the cinema then roller rink is being redeeloped, as is the pub opposite TJs' on Pembroke Place.

I have also heard that the owners of Galkoffs butchers are in discusson with EH (they DO have a proper role to play, if they keep to it) about possible redevelopment and use! The area behind the buildings is fascinating. I used to work for James E James many years ago and there used to be loads of interesting buildings hidden down tiny back streets there, mainly lost, but a few remain... one person said there are remains of an old coourt, but I can't see this!

A new florist and a restaurant have opened up a little further up on Prescot St, the florist in the Georgian building.

About time Galkoffs was sorted out. Here's a 1984 pic of Pembroke Place from Nancy. Check out the posters! last time I bought anything by The Fall was their garage band cover of "Mr Pharmacist" :cheers:
http://static.flickr.com/45/132478766_42f0d41c24_o.jpg

Those blocks had a real sense of faded parisiam glory before they knocked them down for those fucking horrible student things!

her pics are so good.

Those blocks had a real sense of faded parisiam glory before they knocked them down for those fucking horrible student things!

her pics are so good.

Do you know Tony I think you have the same Skitzoid mentality as myself knock `em down but keep `em.

"It`s a shame to see them go but it`s in their passing that we remember them."

"We honour them for their service and they linger in our memory."

"They have served us in their time but their place will be fulfilled."

A prayer for earths poor sod.

My priority will always be to save and adapt old buildings.

Only when a new proposal can show an absolutely clear functional, material and aesthetic benefit for the city should be building be OK'd, but if this is shown then, outside those listed as special, there should be no barriers.

The utter crime is when superior old stock is removed in order to build 'tat' (there we go John)... constant improvement is what we should aim for, not subsidised development turn over. We should remember that in this city it is the public sector, quangos and institutions like the unis who drive most of this 'replace better with worse, i.e. those flats on pembroke... heritage bods... know thy real enemy!

On building adjacent to old buildings, even most architecurally or historic buildings I say 'reference though not reverence. designing a building that may be completely differnt in scale, massing, height and style is done all around the world without the silly notions we have here, mainly those of 'in keeping' and 'appropriate'.

I believe that through that type of approach to development, especially downtown we can have the best of things... retain heritage and streetscape, whilst building what the city needs and wants, great new architecture blending with the old, in a continuous pattern of slow change and evolution. By keeping an area 'viable' it actually provides more momentum to find uses to adapt old buildings to, thereforre retaining them, rather than as we do at the moment... wanking round looking at 'skylines' and 'pallettes' whilst (until very recently, though this is the first thing to stop when the market stops booming remember) our old stock actually continue to fall down around our ears.

Those hard ons JMK reckons we all get thinking about tall buildings are in my case reserved for the scabby old streets aaround the docks!!!!!

Evolve a grid plan.. or more rationally arranged street pattern andlet the city grow according to it's needs..... as we have always done... well, untill 1980 that is!

Outline recipe for a vibrant future that retains the most architectural and street value of our history, whilst still providing the commercial space and good architecture we have always craved (and until recently, delivered) in our mighty metropolis?

I believe that through that type of approach to development, especially downtown we can have the best of things... retain heritage and streetscape, whilst building what the city needs and wants, great new architecture blending with the old, in a continuous pattern of slow change and evolution.


If you think that matters will naturally evolve and the wonderful buildings and streets will be kept because people are responsible, think again. If you think people will naturally build new next to old and compliment it, think hard again. Without control historical vandalism, even up to very recently (demolition of the Waterloo Warehouse), would occur. Liverpool has a poor record of retaining historical buildings and a poor record of town planning too.

The only way to ensure we retain anything is make zones and have bodies that can protect us from planning/architectural/quick buck developer Philistines.

Your notion of where downtown is, is odd. A dynamic city may move its downtown as time, trade and economy moves on. Liverpool’s downtown certainly is moving towards the riverbank and what is left of the waterways in the south end docks.

Towers. If an open book is given on towers we may end up like London’s South Bank of the Thames. A line of towers that effectively create a wall cutting off the immediate working class south of the city to the river. We could end up with lines of towers on the dock waterways with the poor working class areas still behind – the towers and the Dock Rd forming the barrier. The hinterland immediately behind the dock waterways has to be incorporated into the dock water system. How this is done may be quite complex as a degree of social engineering to displace some of the working class there would be needed.

I would remind you John that the biggest acts of civic vandalism have been perpetrated by those very social engineering techniques. The South Docks, the massively destructive redevelopment in the 60s' and the waterloo were all at the behest of quangos or the council itself, especially with regards to what has been reuilt there.

I don't know where this notion you have that I am Johnny aspic all of a sudden... downtowns do move around to take advantage of all sorts of changes, funnily enough it was the shifts caused by increase in land values that stringent planning was brought in to try and control.

I know the grid plan then let planning loose idea may be perceived as simplistic... it is not my idea, but you see it working all the time in plqaces like NYC.... it is simple and logic, tuned to the natural fluctualtions in commercial cities... so it can and it does work. NYC is a good example because of it's sheer volume it has always overwhelmed planners attempts to overly organise it and it has done what has needed to be done. Lots of awful thinggs, just like in all cities, but a better model than the one we have here.... if we encourage organic growth, rather than as planners have it imposed upon us (as in NYC and a few other places)

Your view on peoples motives and actions if they would be allowed to 'get away with it' is too cynical, especially when you consider that ALL of the city's best buildings are where they are, and in the style they are... becasue the owners did exactly what they wanted!!!! This is a nice Liverpool tradition I would love to see revived.

The city is indeed moving back toward the river and this is to be celebrated... why I insist to you it is mighty dangerous that the likes of EH and the WHS could stop this in its tracks .. the last thing we need is zoned areas with fucking heritage guardians... mausoleumville here we come if we go down that line.

Towers wouldn't cut the river off from anyone, in fact utilising the profile that towers enable is less likely to form a barrier than business parks, industrial estate or god help us cul de sac hell.

Towers can shift homes off the street, lift commercial activitys up a flight of stairs and allow shops, services, bars, cafes, restaurants, galleries etc. on to the ground floor - encouraging people to the area and through it.

I would remind you John that the biggest acts of civic vandalism have been perpetrated by those very social engineering techniques. The South Docks, the massively destructive redevelopment in the 60s' and the waterloo were all at the behest of quangos or the council itself, especially with regards to what has been reuilt there.


But we now have a heritage/history focus, and organisation to monitor, rather than accept any investment of any description because they were desperate or just plain thick.

To develop the waterways and merge them into the hinterland a degree of social engineering is required. The Liverpool working class still have this notion of freely littering the city, while the middle class do not.


I don't know where this notion you have that I am Johnny aspic all of a sudden... downtowns do move around to take advantage of all sorts of changes, funnily enough it was the shifts caused by increase in land values that stringent planning was brought in to try and control.


The centre can morph and along the waterways/riverfront. We don’t need to further back than the rear of Lime St station. It needs to spread down onto the waterways and river.


I know the grid plan then let planning loose idea may be perceived as simplistic... it is not my idea, but you see it working all the time in plqaces like NYC.... it is simple and logic, tuned to the natural fluctualtions in commercial cities... so it can and it does work.


That is what I advocate. All the LCC and quangos have to do is layout out the waterway vision and the merging of the hinterland into the waterways. WHS zones state where you can’t do silly things, and all a developer has to do is abide by the framework and conform to the strategy. Very simple. Private enterprise then flourishes in providng the buildings.


NYC is a good example because of it's sheer volume it has always overwhelmed planners attempts to overly organise it and it has done what has needed to be done. Lots of awful thinggs, just like in all cities, but a better model than the one we have here.... if we encourage organic growth, rather than as planners have it imposed upon us (as in NYC and a few other places)


A visionary master plan will just lay the framework.


Your view on peoples motives and actions if they would be allowed to 'get away with it' is too cynical, especially when you consider that ALL of the city's best buildings are where they are, and in the style they are... becasue the owners did exactly what they wanted!!!! This is a nice Liverpool tradition I would love to see revived.


BTW, the town hall is hemmed in and those large 1920/30s building around it should never have been allowed right up to it. That is not good planning by anyone’s standards. If the town hall had space to breath, it would look so much better, as it is a very old very nice looking building. A small park around it would have been much preferable to large blocks. It looks like the private developers got their way in the depression 1930s because they were putting some money and jobs into the city.

It looks like there was a high rise limit in the 1920/30s, otherwise they would have gone up instead of out. After the Liver Buildings there was no tall buildings at all, yet they were all the rage in the USA.


The city is indeed moving back toward the river and this is to be celebrated... why I insist to you it is mighty dangerous that the likes of EH and the WHS could stop this in its tracks .. the last thing we need is zoned areas with fucking heritage guardians... mausoleumville here we come if we go down that line.


The zones have been set out. The fact that tat like the Kings Dock development is going ahead, shows they do not have as much influence as you think. Historic docks were filled and are being built on.

But what WHS will allow you to build is naff look alike crap.... nothing else!

Exchange Flags was Liverpool's last blow at being the mighty trading city, it is fine as it is, there was not the money in Liverpool by the time the technology was available to build really tall, the commercial sector was beginning to decline, there was simply no market for that type of massive growth.... which is a shame.

If we removed Exchange Flags on this principle we would also have to drop Martins Bank as this also 'hems in the town hall'... exchange flags are great buildings... there is no real logic in that type of sentiment, buildings don't need to breathe in that sense, cities need to function though.

But what WHS will allow you to build is naff look alike crap.... nothing else!


That is what EH want. They can be overridden and told act their ages too.


Exchange Flags was Liverpool's last blow at being the mighty trading city, it is fine as it is, there was not the money in Liverpool by the time the technology was available to build really tall, the commercial sector was beginning to decline, there was simply no market for that type of massive growth.... which is a shame.


The Empire State in NY was built in 1930 in “one year”. Many voluminous buildings in Liverpool were being built at the time, but none went up.


If we removed Exchange Flags on this principle we would also have to drop Martins Bank as this also 'hems in the town hall'... exchange flags are great buildings... there is no real logic in that type of sentiment, buildings don't need to breathe in that sense, cities need to function though.

I am not saying drop these buildings. What I am highlighting is that allowing free reign can result in poor implementation, and around the Town Hall was poorly implemented by anyone’s standards. Not what we want at all. Liverpool Tow Hall has no presence at all, unlike St, Georges’s Hall or Wallasey Town hall with it river frontage.

If the Town Hall was given room to breath, then all those fine buildings surrounding it would have been built nearby and of a different style – maybe more modern looking and taller, who knows. But hemming in the Town Hall was poor planning without a doubt. If that ad-hoc anarchy is what you want then you can keep it.

Some of the best skyscraper architecture ever was built in the 1930s'... but by the time Liverpool got to 1930's there was not the money or demand for huge amounts of space as provided by skyscrapers, so no skyscrpers were built. This is a point that is as important today as it was back then.

There was still more money in Liverpool than most other UK cities, but not sufficient to fill even one skyscraper. demand was also flat at that time in NYC, but another vital difference was that builders and corporations there knew that the economy would turn around some time, so they built in advance... there was not the same confidence that Liverpool would grow to such enormous proportions, in fact the reasoniing that our major stock and wealth would continue to drift, mainly to London was predominant. (they did not forsee the massive fast track swipe as a result of the war or post war nationalisation however, but the drift was on, and had been for some time)


None of our mega companies grew into corporates of the size of, say, Chrysler, or Woolworth (an even earlier one). Martins built their own lavish headquarters, which are sublime, but the Rockerfeller centre is better?


Exchange Flags was rebuilt on the same footprint of the old exchange flags that had been there in many guises for hundreds of years. In fact the first and second town hall's where built on arches to enable trade in the 'Exchange' to continue unhindered. Attempts were being made at the time to consolidate the shrinking trading, finance and banking industry in the city and in doing this they found they needed a bigger building... so they built one... on the same historic site where our core stock exchange had always been! Another reason why it is silly to fuck round with aesthetics, giving it priority over the desirable needs of commerce and culture. The Exchange blocks were built where they where, because that is where they needed to be... which is exactly where the city needed them to be!


I have never said we should have complete market freedom... it is a game we all play.. I want the planners to adhere to the rules that I want to see! All we need is loose regulation and a framework.. they do the rest.


An important point I have said many times is that the decline of Liverpool was a long-term process... we only found out just how completely the economy and everything that underpins it had dissapeared when the global downturn occured from the early 70s'... by then it was way too late!

Toad said the other day if real free trade had been allowed to continue then Liverpool would likely still be a great metropolis... he is dead right... but we didn't do that, did we?


So as I have said, if Liverpool is chosen as a site for a developer to build a skyscraper you can bet that he has most of the tenents lined up to fill it... remember what else we are rejecting in addition of the 'tall'.

All this skyscraper and urbanism stufff don't take place in some aesthetic bubble you know.

Exchange Flags was rebuilt on the same footprint of the old exchange flags that had been there in many guises for hundreds of years. In fact the first and second town hall's where built on arches to enable trade in the 'Exchange' to continue unhindered. Attempts were being made at the time to consolidate the shrinking trading, finance and banking industry in the city and in doing this they found they needed a bigger building... so they built one... on the same historic site where our core stock exchange had always been! Another reason why it is silly to fuck round with aesthetics, giving it priority over the desirable needs of commerce and culture. The Exchange blocks were built where they where, because that is where they needed to be... which is exactly where the city needed them to be!


It never was a case of either/or. The commerce people could have had their commerce buildings pretty well where they wanted them and the town Hall could have had space around it. Culture/art/commerce can all go together. Even in the 1920-30s, times had moved on and to build on where it always had been even then was ridiculous.

All I have is highlight some bad planning of ye olden dayes. We keep making the same mistakes.

But the point is they owned that land... so why not redevelop there when they needed to, rather than spend a fortune on finding another site... leaving the incredibly beautiful Exchange that stood on the site.. presumably in the hands of the council (also presuming they didn't charge them a fortune to buy it too)... only for LCC to comit what would have been one of the most utterly gormless acts of civic vandalism of our heritage ever undertaken, when they spent even more money demolishing the huge complex.... simply to put some daisies and pansies round the boring old town hall... look dead like Dorking then too!

Staying and redeveloping (on the principle of material, functional and aesthetic improvement) on the site that they owned was the least ridiculous thing they could have done!

I agree with your concept of mixing up uses... I will take that up and start promoting it... an excellent idea and just what proper cities need, rather than all these notions about zoning etc?

But the point is they owned that land... so why not redevelop there when they needed to, rather than spend a fortune on finding another site.


Owning the land is irrelevant. The large building hemmed in the Town Hall - totally unacceptable at any time.

In fact, Martins could have taken their building further towards the Pier Head on the same site and built a tower on a much smaller footprint leaving the town hall to breathe instead of overpowering it.

Defending the indefensible does you no favours.

The role of the city council in the decline of Liverpool cannot be overestimated. Of course people concentrate on the municipalisation/socialism anti business activities, the bantustanisation of the 'working classes' to Kirkby, Runcorn, Skelmersdale, the grotesque centralised planning and clearances. But what people forget is that the city council literally owned the 'city' lock, stock and barrel. Massive stretches of the city, particularly in the centre, were freehold owned by the council and many of those lovely georgian and early victorian buildings that we now lament were in fact leasehold owned by the original developers and then leaseholds were passed on over the years, but the council had last call on the land and many of the buildings.

It's against that background that Liverpools mad socialist experiment after the war commenced and all those terrible mistakes followed. In many, many cases as economic decline ensued, the council sat on those leases and did nothing. Absolutely nothing. While the mad clearances commenced in some areas with all the consequent damage, a lot of the commercial stuff that was left, just rotted away and the council estates department did nothing to make sure the leases were properly managed. When leases came to an end there was no creative approach to redevelop piecemeal and/or wholescale. In other words the indolent bastards in the council(political/admin) just turned their back on the real business world while they concentrated all their efforts at creating their walk up flats utopia for the working classes.

It's a tragedy because Liverpool was actually in a much better position than most other cities to cope, thanks to that massive freehold land bank. I hate to say this because I loathe the fascist scum called Militant that came to run Liverpool but in one way(and one way only) the acually did something to benefit Liverpool, through unintended consequences I might add. They started to sell the freeholds to get their greedy hands on some cash, something which raised many millions (and which Thatcher never lifted a finger to stop). The upshot was a typical political faustean deal. They built a new generation of council Mchouses to help clear up the original mess that their Labour party colleauges had created in the 50's and 60's ad 70's but much more importantly the private sector was let back into property development and refurbishment because the council's awful estates gang no longer had final say on land and property. So there you go. The ultimate irony of Trotskyite fascists helping to revive the private sector in Liverpool.

The role of the city council in the decline of Liverpool cannot be overestimated. Of course people concentrate on the


This is just clearly anti Labour party clap trap. The first Labour council was in 1956 and the Tories got back in on a regular basis. The LibDems got a grip in the 1970s.

Post WW2 the country, not just Liverpool, was in a huge housing mess. Housing was a massive problem. The government had to act in a forceful manner to get people housed because of German bombing compounded by swathes of Victorian slums. Men would return from fighting Germans and Japanese to live in nothing (mass squats after WW2) or squalor. I was born in the basement of a condemned Victorian Liverpool 8 slum.

There was a large government run administration in place because of WW2 – it ran everything from industry, food distribution, housing to military – this was turned over the massive peacetime tasks now facing the country.

A succession of Labour and Tory governments carried out the same housing policies to get people into decent homes with basic hygiene facilities. The private sector could not fill the gap in 150 years that was clear. Mistakes were made of course, but overall no 5 families were sharing the one toilet anymore. But it generally worked. WW2 never really ended until slums disappeared around the early 1980s.

Times move on, the private sector can cope with most of the developments if the planning acts allowed it to, and housing and many old council homes have been sold off. It makes me puke to read the total brainwashed right wing misinformed crap people like you spout. :puke:

Dead right jets.. and a refreshing change form all that 'left wing' stuff..

the problem MT was that they sold the stuff for peanuts in the main.

I think if you go back over your last statement John you will see why my indefensible' notion of hemming in the town hall is actually the sane one...
Only five minutes into this idea you have begun moving the 'furniture' round like it was someones back bedroom.. they'd love you on changing rooms...
So not only do we now move the exchange flags to replace them with flowers we move martins bank also.

What about the corners of Castle St that obscure and present on off centre vista of the building.. woud we iron that out too.. the building isn't that great. I mean it is beautiful, bacause it's ours, but...?

Where does this stop? Te view of St Georges hall would be orgasmic if we got rid of that gothic horrow shit of a hotel from the station ?

And either the Albert dock or the Customs House cokmpletely blocked the view of (either or, depending on your preference) should one of them have gone too?

and as for those waterfront buildings blocking the view of goree and st nicks!

tut, tut!... you see... it never ends once you put 'fancy notions' of crafting cities begins.. it is all subjective... I for one, if you had to chose would say knock the town hall down and open up the views to the beautiful Exchange instead?

It is a completely non existant issue.. what would 'improve' from doing all this to the city.. the town hall looks great framed by those glorious commercial buildings... would you really do all this damage simply for a better 'view' of the town hall?.. should we have a clearence zone around all of our good buildings so that we can all get a really good look at them? Doesn't that turn the notion of Liverpool being anything other than some sort of second rate architecure park completely on it's head?

I'm going down the docks now... coming?

Dead right.. the problem was that they sold the stuff for peanuts in the main.


All council housing was sold off for peanuts everywhere.


I think if you go back over your last statement John you will see why my indefensible' notion of hemming in the town hall is actually the sane one.

No, it is actually insane. By the 1930s they knew better. garden suburbs had been around fro 30 odd years, the private suburban belts were being built, the modernist movement was in full swing, etc.

Knew better about what? you really should think this through to it's logical conclusion (see what I say about architecture parks)

List me all of the other buildings you would have clear site lines around?
and then tell me how the city could ever have functioned?

Imagine the crush with all those ponces waltzing round "looking at the architecture" for a start!




Re; 80s' delusions - I didn't mean the council housing stock.. MT didn't do that, the tories, rightly gave people the right to buy... and wrongly barred councils from building new!

I wa on about the assets the city owned that jets mentioned... loads of land... millions of georgian housese.. all prime stuff in the inner core, but they sold it all for 30 bob so they could be seen by folks like you to be "kicking Maggie back"... did they fuck.. they asset stripped the city in a much more profound way than any shit plant closing to seel the machinary out in Speke!

The further tragedy is that before the emasculation of local government, councillors in Liverpool did have real power and used it and abused it. It was a major priority to slum clearance after the war and the priorities were set by central government but councils like Liverpool had real lattitude.

There is no getting away from it, but the naff councillors had no real ambition for the working class. They were treated as victims of the wicked capitalist system whose whole way of life in the slums had to be swept away. Everything went, the fantastic sense of real community, a civil society, the low crime rates thanks to 'real' community watch, the business and charity networks so they could be shunted off to the Kirkby bantustan with the chance of a job on the industrial estate.

They were to be treated as poor with no real ambition for themselves or their families. The clueless representatives then mismanged the new utopia either because the repairs weren't done, the bins weren't emptied or the corpy buses didn't run on time.
A whole political generation(left and right) who thought everything would be alright if you put a family in a walk up flat with their own inside toilet miles away from their families, no shops, no familiar churches, no community. You can't condemn the stupidity strongly enough.

And to use use the old phrase, Hatton and Militant were the logical conclusion to the madness and now provide a warning from history.

The further tragedy is that before the emasculation of local government, councillors in Liverpool did have real power and used it

:puke: Oh this brainwashed one is still going on about it. One thing why runaway capitalism was not liked was that is never actually worked for the majority of the people with a sub under class created and a mass swathe of working class poor. It never worked. Brakes had to be put on it and a new order created. When it comes to profit, man will freely exploit his fellow man to no end - as history has proven. The brake was largely applied throughout the 20th century, but still along way to go to a system of where capitalism fairly distributes the proceeds of a societies production.

Read the teachings of Henry George. Georgism and Land Value Tax. This goes some way to a fairer capitalist system. Do a Goggle. Land Value Tax implemented on Liverpool right nmow get rid of the abandoned and closed up properties owned by speculators. Pittsburg had the same problem and solved it.

When slavery was abolished the Liverpool slave shippers turned to slum housing, building all the overcrowded slum courts in Liverpool. They turned from dealing in one human misery to another - for profit.

Town and urban planing was severly hamstrung by the socialist ideologies and dogma that infested the profession. revolution in bricks and mortar, removing high streets as rather than the vibrant hearts of healthy working class communities they where viewed as cess pits of capitalist exploitation.. and of course the small business people were bou, so brought down utter contempt.

and lots of other nasty things and as with all things a dislike of the client group.... when communities started saying that they liked their communities, they just wanted rid of the slum housing this was dismissed as 'native wisdom', the workers ideas derided, as is always the habit of the socialist elite!

John: The land tax potential is good idea to research actually.. the rest was just drivel... you weren't humming the internationale whilst you were writing that?

Town and urban planing was severly hamstrung by the socialist ideologies and dogma that infested the profession. revolution in bricks and mortar, removing high streets as rather than the vibrant hearts of healthy working class communities they where viewed as cess pits of capitalist exploitation.. and of course the small business people were bou, so brought down utter contempt.

and lots of other nasty things and as with all things a dislike of the client group.... when communities started saying that they liked their communities, they just wanted rid of the slum housing this was dismissed as 'native wisdom', the workers ideas derided, as is always the habit of the socialist elite!

Political dogma had nothing to do with it. The view was to build cities in the sky - a dream, the future. These proposals were submitted by architects and experts on the built environment. Your average dumbo councillor didn't think all this up thinking of Karl Marx as he did so.

After the event political propagandists decide to put political tags on failed aspects to promote their own agendas.

Sometimes people are lucky enough to have political power, to be able to spend other people's money, by law, by an underlying political philosophy. What goes with that are normal things like competence, humanity, legality.

Politicians are judged and it gives me no pleasure that some of the idiots who voted for the bantustans have to be forced to stand on their pile of political tomes so they can stare through the windows of some of the walk up/multi storey shit holes they helped to build.

Knew better about what? you really should think this through to it's logical conclusion (see what I say about architecture parks)

List me all of the other buildings you would have clear site lines around?
and then tell me how the city could ever have functioned?


The old historic Town Hall, the city's prime building, is different to a speculative office block, as that is what these large office buildings were.


Re; 80s' delusions - I didn't mean the council housing stock.. MT didn't do that, the tories, rightly gave people the right to buy... and wrongly barred councils from building new!


Councils need a pool of housing for emergency situations. They were stripped of this and had to pay far more by putting people up in hotels. Thatcher was idiotic at times.


I wa on about the assets the city owned that jets mentioned... loads of land... millions of georgian housese.. all prime stuff in the inner core, but they sold it all for 30 bob so they could be seen by folks like you to be "kicking Maggie back"... did they fuck.. they asset stripped the city in a much more profound way than any shit plant closing to seel the machinary out in Speke!

The Thatcher fans at the time wanted everything private, so Hatton obliged.

Councillors don't sit there and design schemes...

I deas about planning and social enginering, utopia and the future were discussed by clever folk up on the hill!
Aye she (thatcher) was... and a nasty, mean, mad cow more often than that .. the fundamentals of the choices in which way to craft economies has proven to be the right ones however.. IMO.

Sometimes people are lucky enough to have political power, to be able to spend other people's money, by law, by an underlying political philosophy. What goes with that are normal things like competence, humanity, legality.


We all know that.


Politicians are judged and it gives me no pleasure
:puke: He is still prattling confused bollocks. :puke:

Quote:
"The Thatcher fans at the time wanted everything private, so Hatton obliged"

So there you have it, so funny it's almost beyond parody.....Thatcher and Hatton in league......too get their hands on the money????!!!??? Too funny.....Too funny

Liverpool Royal Insurance building in worse state than previously thought (http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0100regionalnews/tm_objectid=17123864%26method=full%26siteid=50061%26headline=left%2dto%2drot-name_page.html)


Left to rot

May 24 2006

By Catherine Jones, Liverpool Echo

THIS is the decaying interior of a Liverpool building which could be lost forever unless someone can be found to take on its restoration.

It could cost £10m to transform the Royal Insurance Building.

The site became the newest addition to English Heritage's Buildings at Risk register when it was added in 2005.

But now it has been revealed the building, on the corner of North John Street and Dale Street and in the World Heritage site, is in an even worse state than was thought.

It has dry rot, while water pouring in through the roof has damaged its marble halls, corroded steelwork and cracked masonry.

And it has even become the source of complaints from the public about its appearance and smell.

Vegetation is growing all over the grade II* listed edifice, which was a ground-breaking design when it was built in 1903, becoming the first building in Britain to boast a steel frame which supported all its upper floors.

There were plans to turn it into a hotel, but the previous owners, an American hotel group, went into liquidation after the September 11 attacks.

Since then the building, which is on the ECHO's Stop the Rot hitlist, has been in the hands of receivers, and now Liverpool council is poised to serve notices demanding thousands of pounds of urgent work is carried out to stop it rotting away further.

Buildings at risk officer Chris Griffiths said: "We've surveyed the building and found it to be deteriorating from its previous condition, rather than stable, which was expected.

"We're producing a detailed schedule of urgent works to make the building weathertight and pigeon proof. "Dry rot will then potentially become a bigger problem than it already is."

Mr Griffiths has also written to the receivers of the lease holder, outlining the extent of the problems.

He wrote: "The iron gated en-trance porches are currently home to roosting pigeons in spite of previous efforts to pigeon proof the openings. The consequent accumulation of guano and human detritus is now a public liability as well as a glaring source of blight."

Mr Griffiths added: "The building serves as both one of city's outstanding public landmarks and testament to Liverpool's importance during the 19th century as a major financial centre. It is very much the concern of this authority to ensure a sustainable long term use."

This is one building that need salvation!

It was built, served and has been abandoned and stood for so much!

All the more reason for EH and the LCC planners to get their act together.

Talk about scope creep ..... grot screep more likely due to total indolance!

:bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash:

This is one building that need salvation!


Royal Insurance (http://www.liverpoolarchitecture.com/tours/buildings/building.php?id=31)

http://www.liverpoolarchitecture.com/tours/images/300_images/royal_dale_st3.jpg

Royal Insurance (http://www.liverpoolarchitecture.com/tours/buildings/building.php?id=31)

http://www.liverpoolarchitecture.com/tours/images/300_images/royal_dale_st3.jpg


Dear Sir / Madam,

Does Liverpool actually know what it is doing with heritage never mind reinvestment?

With the continued decay of the former `Royal Insurance Building` North John Street and the continued dabacle in the planning office with regards to the re-investment of Liverpool in regards to `tall` or in fact anything, or so it seems, just when will something get through all of that red tape or be dealt with by those quangos who simply seem to be payed to sit on their back side for want of a much more approriate exprecetion.

For goodness sake get on with it!

Build and renew!

Kind regards,

That's always been one of my fave buildings in town.

You are right Pie, EH should concentrate on what their remit is and not fucking about with things that shouldn't concern them.

We took this angle to the story on the downtown site

A 'Royal' cock up
News that the old headquarters of Royal Insurance (now RSA and based in Old Hall St) in North John St is in a much worse condition than expected. It is estimated that it would cost £10m+ to bring it into a condition where redevelopment could be viable.

As acceptance of WHS was sold to many councillors with the assurance that such a designation would unleash a 'cascade of heritage repair grants' we will see how this promise stands up in the real world. Just think - the WHS mind set has it that the whole downtown area's 'assets' could be maintained with grants and public subsidies instead of commerce (and the changes this nescecitates).

They failed to draw down anything substantial for the repairs to St George's Hall last winter, which where only £800k - let us see if those who bamboozled the city can now come up with the megabucks needed to save this single building?

Great position for a tall. Can't think of any objections :cheers:

http://www.**************************/wdrdmay001.jpg

http://www.**************************/wdrdmay002.jpg

I think that Royal Insurance Building would make a great hotel - the exterior is grand and it is in a prime location. I think it would need a lot of money spent on it though. Pity EH are not interested in places like this but are more concerned about changing designs for new buildings or just stopping them altogether.

Great position for a tall. Can't think of any objections :cheers:

http://www.**************************/wdrdmay001.jpg

http://www.**************************/wdrdmay002.jpg

I am sorry Dave that both `Gregsons Well Pubs` have gone (It was disputed as to which one was actually on the site.....of the well, but I think he was called `Gregson`.

I`d have to go for a 51 tall with a viewing platform.

:cheers:

Is Liverpool americas 51st state?

I think that Royal Insurance Building would make a great hotel - the exterior is grand and it is in a prime location. I think it would need a lot of money spent on it though. Pity EH are not interested in places like this but are more concerned about changing designs for new buildings or just stopping them altogether.

John, the old HQ of the RIb was meant to have been bought by an Irish Company and have been redeveloped into one of their brand hotels but it doesn`t seem to have happened.

In the mean time the former `Royal Insurance` building would make a fabulous `Liverpool Museum of Architecture` as suggested elsewhere.

That would get my vote!

:cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

Grade 2 listed and left to rot. Mate of mine was in there a couple of days ago and according to him, it's in an even worse state than these pics I took in 2003 :bash:

http://www.**************************/wp001.jpg

http://www.**************************/wp002.jpg

Couldn't the Echo and DP do one of their 'Stop the Rot' campaigns' on this one?

:ohno: :crazy2: http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/echoletters/tm_objectid=17179649%26method=full%26siteid=50061%26headline=your%2dletters%2d%2d5th%2djune%2d2006-name_page.html

End this nonsense

I AM writing regarding the Pier Head and the waterfront.

I know the ECHO has done a great job with the "Stop the Rot" campaign, but now it is time for a "Stop the Grot" campaign!

I am referring to the proposed New World Square hotel and 25 storey tower block.

When I read about this I popped down to the waterfront to have a look at the site, which is in front of the new cruise liner terminal.

Can they be serious? The beautiful view of the Liver Building will be lost forever, surely this is not wanted by Liverpudlians or tourists. You may as well be at Salford Quays, Cardiff Bay, London Docklands etc.

I don't believe tourists to our World Heritage Site will be at all impressed. It is high time a proper public debate was held on this and other developments, before Liverpool ends up a laughing stock

:weird: :ohno: :crazy2:

The Liver building is not York Minister.

The Liver building is not York Minister.
Thanks for that insight Stephen.
http://www.maths.biz.ly/images/einstein.jpg

Thanks for that insight Stephen.
http://www.maths.biz.ly/images/einstein.jpg

That's odd I was expecting a load of "yeah, it's more important/beautiful" stuff!

Hadn't noticed the Sun-Dial on the side of the building before.

Royal Insurance Building Today.
http://img226.imageshack.us/img226/3251/zroyalinsurance10vm.jpg

The Gable end reminds me of the White star building.

A certain Mr Shaw and Mr Doyle had a hand in both designs. :)

No mention so far of Hartley's 1866 Jam Factory and 1895 Dining Hall?
Google it.

Taken a couple of years ago, so not sure what state they're in now.
http://www.**************************/derelict003.jpg

http://www.**************************/derelict004.jpg

The Paradox in Aintree is in a bad way. :(
http://www.ehattons.com/images/layouts/paradox_JP_1.JPG

Just off Boundary St. Could be converted to small workshops.
http://www.**************************/derelict005.jpg

http://www.**************************/derelict006.jpg

.....so many walks I made between Scottie and Great Howard Street going to work down towards the docks.

Boundary Street......

Used to be full of small business`s and hauliers and hauliers and hauliers, truck and bus yards and more.

Stone street full of warehouses.....

Pubs and greasey spoon cafes.

If the walls could talk......

Bring it back or at least use these places at peppercorn rents etc.

Bring in a new population.....give us your tired and your weary your young and your hopeful.

No mention so far of Hartley's 1866 Jam Factory and 1895 Dining Hall?
Google it.

Taken a couple of years ago, so not sure what state they're in now.
http://www.**************************/derelict003.jpg

http://www.**************************/derelict004.jpg

Is that the one in Stockpit/Long Lane trading estate near Taskers DIY. They are supposed to be doing that estate up, but don't know if those buildings are to be restored.

I am sorry Dave that both `Gregsons Well Pubs` have gone (It was disputed as to which one was actually on the site.....of the well, but I think he was called `Gregson`.

I`d have to go for a 51 tall with a viewing platform.



That was recently sold, dunno who by.

.....so many walks I made between Scottie and Great Howard Street going to work down towards the docks.

Boundary Street......

Used to be full of small business`s and hauliers and hauliers and hauliers, truck and bus yards and more.

Stone street full of warehouses.....

Pubs and greasey spoon cafes.

If the walls could talk......

Bring it back or at least use these places at peppercorn rents etc.

Bring in a new population.....give us your tired and your weary your young and your hopeful.

My Great GM and Great GD lived just off Boundary St and were married in nearby St Albans :cheers:
http://www.**************************/milfordst/cert.jpg

Wasn't this the Fruit and Produce Exchange? It's in dire need of restoration.

http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/8783/liverpool1512ym.jpg

Yes that is/was the fruit exchange.

There have been manny planning apps subbmitted and refused for this building over many years as i can remember. One of the early ones in the 90s was going on about demolishing it because it was in a bad state...! The groung floor does have plenty of business activity now, so maybe apartments above, i don't know why nothing is happening here when many other sites are.

http://www.wormella.com/sky/DB1.jpg
http://www.wormella.com/sky/DB2.jpg

I really like this builiding, and I think it would be a shame to see it demolished but I'm not 100% it's still in use. It use to be Scratcvhards wine merchant wearhouse. it's not the prettiest thing in the world but it is striking. There was a planning application floating around to turn it into a bar restaraunt- taking advantage of the newly finished Hewitt's place.

It was argued against because it might affect all those city living folk who moved to the center of a thriving city for a quiet life.

The site where the hotel is now there on Vernon St is where LADT was. Whan we first went there the whole district, save Scatchards, was derelict.... watching it slowly come to life was a great thrill. The square there used to be an old bombdy carpark!

Article in "The Independent", Tuesday, July 11, 2006

Listed buildings in North less likely to be rescued than those in South

By Ciar Byrne

Crumbling buildings in the North of England are twice as likely to suffer further deterioration than in the South, according to English Heritage, which launched its 2006 buildings at risk register yesterday.

Soaring house prices in the South mean renovation is often economically viable, but the same effect is not being seen in the North.

Of the 30,500 Grade I and II* listed buildings in England, 3.3 per cent are at risk through neglect and decay. In the north-east of England, this figure rises to 7.8 per cent and in the North-west to 5.5 per cent.

In contrast, only 1.8 per cent of listed buildings in the east of England remain at risk and only 2.3 per cent in the South-west. Simon Thurley, chief executive of English Heritage, said: " It's about twice as difficult to solve the problem in the North, because of the high proportion of redundant industrial buildings and because the economy still has to catch up with the South."

The Pithead Baths in Lynemouth, Northumberland, is a typical example of one of the buildings at risk in the North-east. The 1930s building has been vacant for nearly 20 years, and has been vandalised.

But there have also been success stories in the North, including The Albany in Liverpool, one of the earliest large-scale speculative office buildings in the country, built in 1858. After years of decay, it has been converted to high-quality apartments and removed from the register.

" It's about twice as difficult to solve the problem in the North, because of the high proportion of redundant industrial buildings and because the economy still has to catch up with the South."


Fuck off and go fuck yourself you fucking fuck! :wallbash:

Might be explained by the fact that a lot of developers down south have got their way and wiped away many fine listed buildings, so they no longer exist to cause a problem.

Was reading a book with an article about No1 Poultry in the centre of London, and about 23 other listed buildings nearby that were wiped away for redevelopment, something to do with Lord Palumbo.

Fuck off and go fuck yourself you fucking fuck! :wallbash:


:cheers:

No. 1 Poultry may have been designed by the usually excellent Liverpudlian architect, James Stirling. Nevertheless, it still looks like it is made out of blancmange.

They waiting until he died before they built it, however. Maybe they thought, "Quick, the bastard's dead; let's build his design, but do it pink and stripey."

No. 1 Poultry may have been designed by the usually excellent Liverpudlian architect, James Stirling. Nevertheless, it still looks like it is made out of blancmange.

They waiting until he died before they built it, however. Maybe they thought, "Quick, the bastard's dead; let's build his design, but do it pink and stripey."


The Stirling prize is named after him.

James Stirling was born in Glasgow, Scotland in 1926. From 1945 to 1950 he trained in the Beaux Arts tradition at Liverpool University.

Derelict Georgian terrace Shaw St. The facade is all that remains of this end terrace. Hope they dont restore the side with ugly reconstruction.
http://img45.imageshack.us/img45/2544/zshawstderel1tc.jpg

Tinsley Street - 14th August 2006

http://www.liverpoolviews.co.uk/north/anfield/roads/btins1408062.jpg

Lake Street - 14th August 2006

http://www.liverpoolviews.co.uk/north/anfield/roads/blake1408062.jpg

Lake Street - 14th August 2006

http://www.liverpoolviews.co.uk/north/anfield/roads/blake1408061.jpg

Wasn't this the Fruit and Produce Exchange? It's in dire need of restoration.

http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/8783/liverpool1512ym.jpg

Wow, I've never seen this. Where is it?

Wow, I've never seen this. Where is it?

Victoria Street.

Sorry q, we were posting at the same time, I interrupted your flow.

Victoria Street.

hmmmm, I must have walked past it and never looked up...

hmmmm, I must have walked past it and never looked up...

Well stop looking for the pennies on the floor then Poli and look up and admire Liverpool's many fine buildings!

:)

Where was I before I was rudely interrupted? Oh yes.....

Lothair Road - 14th August 2006

http://www.liverpoolviews.co.uk/north/anfield/roads/bloth1408061.jpg

Finally......

Rockfield Road - 14th August 2006

http://www.liverpoolviews.co.uk/north/anfield/roads/brock1408061.jpg

I know this thread is about Liverpool, but I wanted to plug Derelict London (http://www.derelictlondon.com) as it's such a interesting website. :)

Wow, I've never seen this. Where is it?

`The fruit exchange` etc was part of what would be for better words a part of `Liverpools Covent Garden` and the majoity of the fruit and vegtable wharehouses backed onto `Matthew Street` (`Erics club` eventually, becoming one of the venues.....)

I even met one of my cousins `Chris` off loading `tomatoes` from the back end of one the `Matthew Street` doors and I took the `crate` which was paid for by myself and I weighed the contents in the `post room` of the `Guradian Royal Exchange - Water Street and bags of cheap tomatoes where hence forth distributed for absolutely `bugger all`.....although I think I made the equivalent of the 50p back.

`Chris` my cousin was a bit of a singer and more than a bit of an early `George Michael` look and sound alike and had his girl groupies.

He was in several bands.....and had his followers, he could certainly sing just about anything.

The `Fruit Exchange` Liverpool was also the venue for the film .....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fruit_Machine_(film)

The Fruit Machine (1988) was known as Wonderland in the United States.

The Fruit Machine is a British Film thriller directed by Philip Saville (The Gospel of John, Metroland) about two bud gay teens running from an underworld assassin and the police. A combination of adventure, road movie and 1980s filmmaking. The film plays out a number of social issues of the time, as seen through the eyes of two British 16-year-olds. One of the teenagers spends a lot of time at the dolphinarium. This is probably the last time footage of the Brighton Dolphinarium and the dolphins was used, before it closed down.

Starring Tony Forsyth, Emile Charles, Robbie Coltrane (Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire), in the role of "Annabelle", and Bruce Payne as a menacing assassin who never speaks a single word.

Soundtrack by early score master Hans Zimmer (Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest, The Da Vinci Code, The Lion King).

Though it has a growing cult following, the film has never been released on DVD and the Laserdisc and VHS versions are long out of print.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

The interior is as far as I know still intact, including the `iron work` upper floor galleries and ` the fruit exchange`.....itself.

It`s a building well worth saving.

Lake St soon history...

Lake Street - 14th August 2006

http://www.liverpoolviews.co.uk/north/anfield/roads/blake1408062.jpg

The bulldozers move in to cheers
Aug 11 2006
By Nick Coligan, Liverpool Echo

BULLDOZERS have moved into a terraced street to kickstart long-awaited plans to rebuild a crumbling community.

Residents celebrated as the demolition of boarded-up houses in Lake Street, Anfield, finally started.

Many of the Victorian two-up, two-down properties had been empty for years and will be wiped from the map within a few weeks.

The houses have been in the shadow of Liverpool FC's Anfield stadium for generations, but were declared past their sell-by date by housing experts.

Lake Street is the first of a cluster of roads in Anfield due to be pulled down to make way for new homes.

Regeneration firm New Heartlands is working on an £89m plan to demolish up to 1,600 properties and rebuild and refurbish hundreds more.

A group of residents turned out yesterday to watch workmen start demolishing the street.

Anfield resident Ros Groves, a member of the area's housing regeneration group, said: "After seven years of meetings and consultation, we are delighted that at last we are seeing some progress. We are now looking forward to making sure our community improves."

Anfield is one of several neighbourhoods about to go through controversial changes, with many residents having already moved to other areas, leaving some streets part-derelict.

Families in the V Streets, on the other side of Walton Breck Road to Lake Street, say their lives are being made a misery by vandals and arsonists smashing up or setting fire to empty homes.

But Pauline Davis, managing director of New Heartlands, predicted a bright future for the community.

She said: "It is great news for Anfield that we are making progress, as these changes are what local people want.

"The demolition of Lake Street marks a fresh start for this community. New and refurbished homes will follow to help create a 21st century neighbourhood."

Cllr Marilyn Fielding, executive member for housing, said: "Residents have been extremely patient and we are pleased to support them as they celebrate progress."

Knock each house into the next: half the number of houses, twice the size. Landcsape the street - one slow lane, sideways parking at each end - public benches, recyling points, flower beds and Trees. In each terrace, make a craft workspace at the end of the terrace out of one house. Lease one in every five property to a young Polish or Hungarian or Czech couple with craft skills, eg in woodwork, metalwork, design, textiles etc. It will cost half as much, and make a real community.

to do that you would have to halve the population... better to knock those lake st type down as they are shite anyway..... do the others up.

These terraces are better than the usual modern cul de sacs... they are not the best type of urban layout in themselves.

I'm worried that all this demolition is throwing the baby out with the bath water.
Are we destined to repeat the mistakes of the past?
When housing stock is squalid and unsuitable for modern expectations then get rid - but that is rarely the case.
Two very different schemes in manchester but two schemes that utilise 'two up two downs' in new and vital ways.
http://www.northmoorhomezone.org/
http://www.chimneypotpark.co.uk/

I can`t help but feel more than a little sad on this.....

It`ll still end up as downsizing.

As `The Longford` has pointed out other options exist.

These houses and their like could be amongst the thousands of homes needed by young couples desperate to get on the housing ladder and single professionals etc that just don`t want to exist in splendid isolation.

I'm worried that all this demolition is throwing the baby out with the bath water.
Are we destined to repeat the mistakes of the past?
When housing stock is squalid and unsuitable for modern expectations then get rid - but that is rarely the case.
Two very different schemes in manchester but two schemes that utilise 'two up two downs' in new and vital ways.
http://www.northmoorhomezone.org/
http://www.chimneypotpark.co.uk/

Interesting links, cheers.

It'd be nice to see something like these schemes done - even if it was just as an experiment. A lot of the houses to be pulled down are in a real sorry state. But from the pictures I've seen they're going to be replaced with the blandest of bland little boxes, with little steel gates and conrete gardens!

If you walk around the other side of Anfield down Skerries Road they've done a fantastic job of cleaning up the houses and they look really smart. A lot of these victorian houses have great attention to detail and can be converted into 21st century living spaces. The houses on Lake Street aren't in the same class, but I don't think it's necessary to knock everything down in the hope that their replacement will be better.

I am certainly not condoning or supporting the HMRI, which in my view is the biggest of scams the public sector has come up with in 40 years.

My point is though that clever people, taking up the 'we don't have to do this' can come up with their own solutions which are just as damaging... just coming from the other extreme.

90% of the housees planned for demolition should indeed be kept, but those horrible little shitholes in Lake St... should really go... too much of an effort to make them habitable... and all the effort being largely counter productive?

I think with these small exceptions, we could do much better. We should support good urbanism, not simply 'heritage'..yes?

I agree with Tony, however that pic of Rockfield Road shows lovely large spacious houses which people would love to live in. Anywhere else in the UK and they would sell for £150+. Its not always the houses but the area, ie scallies, yobs and high crime, sort these out and people will feel safe and stay or move there. RSL's or housing associations are the biggest threat to Liverpool as they sit on these houses and are not willing to sell or do up and rent out, I know this first hand. People comment on the state of the Granby Triangle, but the owner of most of the houses is RSL's and the council. Its gentrification and making money out of land prices.
If you move the undesirable people out then you can make more money building shitty houses to other people. Remember these new homes go for £100/£120k upwards, the new houses on Park Road in the Cleveden development go for £150k upwards, who on earth in L8 can afford that? and to boot they are shit and poorly built!!!.

Remember new houses dont change a thing unless you change the social problems, we've seen it to many times in Liverpool. Its time people woke up and looked at the real issues. Houses like Lake street should go but every street. The inclusion and maintaining of long established communities is paramount, constant cleaning, crime provention, new employment and training all have to work together. We cant just forget about these areas like the council would love us to.

Aye Dreamer, those are the two most importyant points.

It is why I specifically mentioned Lake St as opposed to the policy as w whole, as the policy as a whole stinks!

And unless you do something to help some help themselves, and drown out the influences of the scummy ones the area will never change.

I agree with Tony, however that pic of Rockfield Road shows lovely large spacious houses which people would love to live in. Anywhere else in the UK and they would sell for £150+. Its not always the houses but the area, ie scallies, yobs and high crime, sort these out and people will feel safe and stay or move there. RSL's or housing associations are the biggest threat to Liverpool as they sit on these houses and are not willing to sell or do up and rent out, I know this first hand. People comment on the state of the Granby Triangle, but the owner of most of the houses is RSL's and the council. Its gentrification and making money out of land prices.
If you move the undesirable people out then you can make more money building shitty houses to other people. Remember these new homes go for £100/£120k upwards, the new houses on Park Road in the Cleveden development go for £150k upwards, who on earth in L8 can afford that? and to boot they are shit and poorly built!!!.


The reason we can't rent them is because no one wants to live in them! They all want 3 bed semi's with nice back gardens!

Delboy what you say is flawed, if you live in an urban area and close to town most people in this country dont expect gardens or driveways and are happy with a yard, outside space is outside space at the end of the day. Some of the houses they want rid of are large and have decent ceiling heights and room sizes and are 4 bedrooms, you do not get this in the new houses and the price is very high.
If you could afford £160-£200k would you choose to move to Anfield or Everton? NO is the answer. The price goes up but nothing changes for the better so value for money is not there.
Sort the problems out, then people will live there. Dont let RSL's strangle our housing stock and prevent our children from owning their own home. House prices are artificially increased in these areas which is wrong. Remember your taxes go to these people to provide housing for local people, so its about time they did their job.
If all you wanted was a garden, then why didnt the Boot Estate work? or all the other failed housing estates/developments?

Delboy what you say is flawed, if you live in an urban area and close to town most people in this country dont expect gardens or driveways and are happy with a yard, outside space is outside space at the end of the day. Some of the houses they want rid of are large and have decent ceiling heights and room sizes and are 4 bedrooms, you do not get this in the new houses and the price is very high.
If you could afford £160-£200k would you choose to move to Anfield or Everton? NO is the answer. The price goes up but nothing changes for the better so value for money is not there.
Sort the problems out, then people will live there. Dont let RSL's strangle our housing stock and prevent our children from owning their own home. House prices are artificially increased in these areas which is wrong. Remember your taxes go to these people to provide housing for local people, so its about time they did their job.
If all you wanted was a garden, then why didnt the Boot Estate work? or all the other failed housing estates/developments?

Dreamer, my argument isn't flawed i work in the sector! If only everything you say was so simple but it ain't. Unfortunately alot of our work is dictated by what the local authority want to do....their big masterplans which is why you find alot of houses tinned up because the long-term aim is to demolish them. There's no point on spending money on them if they are going to be knocked down again in 5 years time. The Housing Corporation which hands out the money for re-development would certainly have something to say about that! Many RSL's including mine spend vast amounts on refurbs but only in areas that are deemed sustainable by the LA. Many more of the houses that you will find around the city are owned by absentee landlords who hold out for a good price (especially were HMRI is concerned). So a project which could take just 2 years to complete is then drawn out by an extra 3 years becuase private landlords want to make a killing!

I agree with part of your points about selling off some of our stock, and believe it or not we have started doing that. We have a pilot project ongoing at the moment were we are refurbing properties and selling them onto first time buyers. So things are going in the right direction. But please don't cast all RSL's as the bad man of housing

Ta

Who is responsible for the dereliction at the bottom of Leece St, corner of Renshaw Street? How long will that burnt out kebab shop in Berry Street remain an eyesore? Who owns the buildings in Nelson Street with trees coming out of them? Great though to see some good redevelopment work going on in that street.

Not before frigging time.

Delboy I still disagree thou I dont think we will come to agree to be honest, RSL's and LCC are just as bad as each other. There is proven evidence that people want to live in certain areas and house prices reflect that, the fact that RSL's would rather a house become derelict than sell and let a local working person live there says it all. The How to Save a House programme last year on the BBC is another bit of proof. The only decent RSL in Liverpool is LHT the rest are out to make the most money and are only interested in their own little schemes. The Canning area only 10-20 years ago was called alot of bad names and half of it destroyed all because the idea people didnt want that type of house, when it actual fact it was crime, unemployment lack of investment and LCC letting private and social landlords run amock.

A lively dance over £5m city landmark



LIVERPOOL'S derelict former Irish Centre could be compulsorily purchased to become the home of the north west national dance centre.

The Wellington Rooms in Mount Pleasant, on the ECHO's Stop the Rot hitlist, have been empty and decaying for a decade.

Repairs alone will cost £3m. City leaders are now being asked to start negotiations to buy out leaseholder New Dimensions Properties, or approve, in principle, compulsorily purchase.

They are also being asked forapproval to find a development partner to repair the 190-year-old building.

New Dimensions chief Abdul Rauf Shaik, who wants to turnit into a boutique hotel with three-storey extension, said he was livid at what he saw as a turnaround by planners.

He said: "We've spent 10 months consulting with the council about our scheme, then two days before the deadline for responses they objected to our entire proposal.


"If they CPO us, we'll challenge it. This dance centre doesn't have any funding in place."


But executive member for heritage Cllr Berni Turner said: "We think it would be extremely difficult for any commercial operation to bring forward a feasible scheme, certainly not one that would attract public funding.


"To bring this important building back into use we think the council has to acquire the lease, hopefully through negotiations but otherwise we'll consider compulsory purchase.


"If the dance centre comes off it won't be ready for 2008 buthas the potential to be one of the significant legacy projects for Capital of Culture."


It would cost £5m to convert the Wellington Rooms into a dance centre, including rehearsal space and studios.


Dance Liverpool, which is behind the plan, says it is confident of financial backing and is talking to organisations including Heritage Lottery.


Dance Liverpool executive director Giles Auckland-Lewis said: "There's currently nowhere for dancers in Liverpool - one group are rehearsing in a damp warehouse by the docks."

Glad to see some interest is being paid to the old Irish Centre, it's an important building and one which I've enjoyed many fry-ups in ...

I can't seem to locate the search function, but can anyone show a photo of the derelict houses at the town end of Edge Lane? It would be a real disappointment for these to be lost to the road scheme. I lived in No. 10 for a year in the '90s - I remember it still had a fantastic range cooker in the cellar.

I think New Dimension has had long enough to start the refurbishment of the Wellington Rooms, we don't want a repeat of the Casartelli or St. Andrews.


http://img460.imageshack.us/img460/636/wellingtonrooms2yf0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Dance Liverpool executive director Giles Auckland-Lewis said: "There's currently nowhere for dancers in Liverpool - one group are rehearsing in a damp warehouse by the docks."

Cheeky get.

I know at least two dance spaces - one in Hope St and the other in Aigburth Road and I couldn't care less about dance. I really hate it (but completely understand it) when people cry 'poverty' of something to get their own way in this city.

Did you get my PM re artinliverpool ?

Interested in your response.

cheers

Heritage plea to save The FlorrieSep 5 2006




By Catherine Jones, Liverpool Echo





SUPPORTERS of a derelict Liverpool landmark are fighting to get its heritage status upgraded.

The Save the Florrie campaigners have applied for the grade II listed Dingle building to be changed to a grade II* by English Heritage.

Researchers believe the Florence Institute was the first building to be specifically constructed as a boys' youth club in Britain.

Representativesof the heritage watchdog visited the Mill Lane site, which is on the ECHO's Stop the Rot list, in June and their decision is expected within the next month.

http://images.icnetwork.co.uk/upl/icliverpool/sep2006/4/0/7E3568B0-E75E-87F4-06F7A1FEA9383D53.jpg





The grade II* listing is for buildings of exceptional historical interest.


If the Florrie's bid is successful, it could increase its chances of funding.


The Florence Institute Trust is also waiting for a decision from the Heritage Lottery Fund over its bid for £3.8m.


Trust chairwoman Denise Devine said: "It's the only site in south Liverpool which has a hall which can seat 300 with a purpose-built stage."


The regenerated building would house a gym, cafe, crèche, social enterprises, library and heritage resource centre, and the observatory would be restored.


Florence was the daughter of West Indies merchant Sir Bernard Hall, who built it in 1889 as amemorial when she died.


The Florrie became a focal point for youngsters until it closed in 1988.

Yate's Moorfields, well past its sell by date, great site for a 40 storey tower right next to Moorfields Station.

http://img53.imageshack.us/img53/7728/s1qm9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/7831/s3zj7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


http://img234.imageshack.us/img234/5496/s4rb4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Walk past this everyday and have to totally agree with you - anyone know who owns it or if it is for sale or looking to be developed?

Walk past this everyday and have to totally agree with you - anyone know who owns it or if it is for sale or looking to be developed?

Heres the temporary answer


http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/capitalofculture/2008unveiled/tm_headline=fresh-new-spin-on-city-buildings%26method=full%26objectid=18056799%26siteid=50061-name_page.html

Another bit of dereliction and therefore negative image of rundown and decaying Liverpool soon to be restored. I like Shaw street, but found it really depressing and at a low around the time the Collegiate suffered a major blaze in about 1991.

This street is coming back to its former glory. They have built new low level (uninspiring) stuff to the rear, which you can just see a bit of, but i hope they keep the impressive rears to the terrace also.
http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/3523/zshawstterrace334ne1.jpg

http://img448.imageshack.us/img448/7421/zshawstreetterrace13zh.jpg

Brilliant,they now need to sort out Moss Street.

Brilliant,they now need to sort out Moss Street.

Development is slow there also, and a major detraction to the city's image.


Found this website detailing a new build for Shaw st next to the collegiate, was posted some time back, but more images now.

http://www.glacialproperties.co.uk/development-projects-shaw.html

Development is slow there also, and a major detraction to the city's image.


Found this website detailing a new build for Shaw st next to the collegiate, was posted some time back, but more images now.

http://www.glacialproperties.co.uk/development-projects-shaw.html

Them new apartments look very smart.:)

Eldon Grove in Vauxhall,Liverpool.
Sad to see the decay of such fine buildings.
Pics here
http://www.28dayslater.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=57531

Eldon Grove in Vauxhall,Liverpool.
Sad to see the decay of such fine buildings.
Pics here
http://www.28dayslater.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=57531

Real shame, those buildings look fantastic in their heyday. The area looks like it has so much potential to become a really exclusive area to live if they recreated the grounds also.

Real shame, those buildings look fantastic in their heyday. The area looks like it has so much potential to become a really exclusive area to live if they recreated the grounds also.


Beautiful residential buildings!! Who are the owners? What is the council doing about it? How can Liverpool affod not to put into use buildings like those?
The area is not bad at all. So close to the central district.

Near by Eldonians could not buy the site and tranform it into an appealing neighbourhood??

regards from Euskal Herria/Basque Country

Beautiful residential buildings!! Who are the owners? What is the council doing about it? How can Liverpool affod not to put into use buildings like those?
The area is not bad at all. So close to the central district.

Near by Eldonians could not buy the site and tranform it into an appealing neighbourhood??

regards from Euskal Herria/Basque Country

The council owned it but sold it to a Developer who started to renovate them but run out of money.Now they are left to rot and will no doubt be demolished eventually.

I was in Glasgow's west on Saturday and saw a pretty good example of how to re-model a former cinema. I think the place was called The Grosvenor and it was on Ashton Lane. Would something similar work on London Rd (although I think most of the original features were lost when it was restored a few decades ago) or the ABC on Lime St perhaps? http://i1124.photobucket.com/albums/l562/Gutterfighter/photo.jpg

The council owned it but sold it to a Developer who started to renovate them but run out of money.Now they are left to rot and will no doubt be demolished eventually.

Let the failed developer know that their time is over and regain municipal control of the site, then. Do not pull them down. Let the council and the developers alike know that the city belongs to its people and that you are not going to tolerate any more vandalism against the city fabric. Do not think that the city deserves to lose good architecture, wherever it is sited. Not a single mistake more. Those magnificent Edge Lane houses where shamefully bulldozed to build something better? No, just a dual carriageway!!

absolute nonsense, from my point of view

agurrak Liverpoolentzat Euskal Herritik
greetings to Liverpool from the Basque Country

Let the failed developer know that their time is over and regain municipal control of the site, then. Do not pull them down. Let the council and the developers alike know that the city belongs to its people and that you are not going to tolerate any more vandalism against the city fabric. Do not think that the city deserves to lose good architecture, wherever it is sited. Not a single mistake more. Those magnificent Edge Lane houses where shamefully bulldozed to build something better? No, just a dual carriageway!!

absolute nonsense, from my point of view

agurrak Liverpoolentzat Euskal Herritik
greetings to Liverpool from the Basque Country

Good post. The value is in the LAND, not the bricks on it (the CAPITAL). The land appreciates in value (because of community acitivity) while the bricks depreciate (like a car). The developer will make lots of money leaving the plot and allowing the bricks (CAPITAL) to crumble then be demolished. When the economy recovers they will make a tax free killing and have done next to nothing. Land speculation was the root cause of the 1929 and 2008 finacial crashes.

Pittsburg and Harrisburg in the USAs declining rust belt, stopped this sort or urban rot by speculators. They slapped on Land Valation Taxation (LVT), payable in full even on vacant plots, The crumbling vacant plots soon disappeared.

Liverpool wanted to adopt LVT to stop the rot. Experts from the USA came over to advise, but it was slapped down by London. We still have crumbling buildings all over and the landowers cash in each time.

LVT also puts a brake on rising land prices.

Good post. The value is in the LAND, not the bricks on it (the CAPITAL). The land appreciates in value (because of community acitivity) while the bricks depreciate (like a car). The developer will make lots of money leaving the plot and allowing the bricks (CAPITAL) to crumble then be demolished. When the economy recovers they will make a tax free killing and have done next to nothing. Land speculation was the root cause of the 1929 and 2008 finacial crashes.

Pittsburg and Harrisburg in the USAs declining rust belt, stopped this sort or urban rot by speculators. They slapped on Land Valation Taxation (LVT), payable in full even on vacant plots, The crumbling vacant plots soon disappeared.

Liverpool wanted to adopt LVT to stop the rot. Experts from the USA came over to advise, but it was slapped down by London. We still have crumbling buildings all over and the landowers cash in each time.

LVT also puts a brake on rising land prices.

I see, thanks a lot...never the less, the public interest must be paramount
and I think that dereliction goes against the welfare of the people living in the vicinity, and to a lesser extent to the rest of the citizens. Hope that eventually the eldonians themselves take over such a gracious building and fill it with people.

regards

Not sure if this has been mentioned before.Couldn't find a thread so thought it'd be ok here. Scheduled for completeion in september 2012.

http://www.principalinternational.co.uk/images/property/4245/2.jpg

A bit of info from here http://www.principalinternational.co.uk/property/st-andrews-place

St Andrews Place in Rodney Street is an exciting new release of luxury student accommodation in an superb location in the City of Liverpool.

Principal International are delighted to offer this excellent development to the market, it offers the investor the opportunity capitalise on the profitable student market. The project has been undertaken to meet the local demand from the universities for high quality student accommodation.

The project offers impressive net yields of 10% with an assured rental for the first year. The project will be a “hands off” passive investment and managed by a professional and experienced and property management company. This local company has established relationships with the local student associations and also with the local universities. Their properties not only achieve returns regularly of 10% but also enjoy excellent occupancy levels in excess of 95%.

St Andrew’s Place is a beautiful character property which is being developed into 100 ensuite student accommodations in an ideal location within a short walk of the John Moores university, and The University of Liverpool. Other universities and educational institutions are also nearby that also could provide accommodation demand for the properties.

The accommodation offered by this development will not only be finished to a high standard with internet, but will also consist of communal lounges on each floor, excellent kitchens ,laundry facilities and an on-site gymnasium which will also be attractive to the multinational student population of Liverpool’s universities and colleges.

Investors are advised to act quickly to avoid disappointment as availability is strictly limited.

That one came out of left field. I know Middle England Developments are entering this market (they did Arena House on Duke St and are trying for Princes Road and the Cheapside Bridewell).

However, I don't think this one is even in planning yet so 2012 is out I think.

What are Middle England Developments after on Princes Road? Hopefully the Welsh Presbyterian church...

No, the former L8 Law Centre and adjoining terraces.

Ah. Ta.

St Andrews Place in Rodney Street is an exciting new release of luxury student accommodation in an superb location in the City of Liverpool.


Student accommodation? Seems a bit of a waste to me. At least it'll get used, I suppose. Hope the students won't mind that it's haunted! ;) Wonder what'll happen to the tombs etc?

Seems a bit of a waste. However on the plus side this will stop it from totally falling down. Also in the future it would be much easier to redevelop into something else that in would be if it was turned into apartments. As the building will remain with one owner. Anyone have any pictures of it in all its glory?

Excellent!!!


After a little bit of digging around, found some more info, on a Bakewell & Horner brochure...

The exterior is the original sandstone building which is to be fully restored with the aid of a substantial grant from English Heritage as this building is in the top ten on the national at-risk register for important historical buildings, and therefore it is a priority for both English Heritage and Liverpool City Council. The grant offered on the project has enabled Middle England Developments to bring the project to the investor at the 10% yield we always strive to achieve for our investors, and allows investors to take advantage of purchasing a product below the cost of construction!!!! A brand new steel-framed structure will be erected inside the existing listed structure to form the student accommodation. It will be finished to a very high standard in compliance and in keeping with LCC Conservation Department’s requirements and all decor, fittings and fixtures on the interior of the building shall be brand new and have been designed with today’s discerning student in mind.



Planning Permission and Reservation period
Request for pre-planning consent to convert the building to student accommodation comprised of 100 en-suite student rooms with the common areas and amenities described above was submitted to Liverpool City Council on 22nd June 2011 for pre-planning approval. After detailed discussion with the Council regarding the proposed use, we have been advised that the Council has no objections to the use, and a full planning application will be submitted prior to the end of July 2011. Liverpool City Council has indicated full planning permission shall be granted on or about the end of September 2011.


http://images.portalimages.com/bakewell/sales/details/st%20andrews%20place.pdf

Wonder what'll happen to the tombs etc?

Maybe we'll get to find out if MacKenzie is sat there holding a hand of cards.

PS There's some pics from 2010 here (http://www.derelictplaces.co.uk/main/showthread.php?t=15429).

So it is Middle England developments. Hopefully, this means the scheme will go on site pretty sharpish from September.

very much hope that the beautiful Welsh Presbyerian is put back in use and its architecture not only preserved but enhanced

More info re: St Andrew's Church
http://councillors.liverpool.gov.uk/mgConvert2PDF.aspx?ID=84170