I must say, historic row-houses, high-gear gentrification, new commercial and residential develoment, and a slew of new inner-city redeveloment have certainly put Baltimore under my radar for one of the places I want to move after high school. One major drawback: their subway system is sorry for a city its size. When will b-more get a decent subway system? Or are their any plans for expansion?

Baltimore has about 45 miles of Subway/LightRail in operation. Another Subway line is in the underdesign phase from Woodlawn/Security to Fells Point Canton. There is also a extension planned and also under design phase from Johns Hopkins Hosiptial Complex to Good Samaritan Hospital in North East Baltimore City. There are also two comuter rail lines one from Camden Station to Union Station and one from Perryville to Penn Station then to Union Station.

can anyone get a detailed map of the Baltimore system on here...being from Buffalo I have a hard time understanding all your reference points.

sounds like its already pretty good, but I dunno

Heres a poor map that I found. For the most part currently we only have the light rail and one subway line. There is an extensive bus system but i have no clue how that works :)

http://img254.echo.cx/img254/8585/baltimore0lk.gif

This is a link to the Baltimore Regional Transit Plan

http://www.baltimoreregiontransitplan.com/

This is hopefully the future for Bmore's transit. It is something that is currently in the planning and securing of funding stages. I think they hope to have everything up and running hopefully in the 2010s or so

have they maxed out what they have now, or are there any booming areas that are not along that subway/rail line that need it?

looks good from what I can make out here, but there is no telling what could be improved or wasted in this scenerio.

Here's a copy of the proposal for the new Baltimore Regional Transit System.

http://www.cphabaltimore.org/images/web/Rail_Plan_Large.jpg

Wow that's a lot of development, the first map's got all the wrong colors for the lines. For instance, the first map shows the Yellow line terminating at Cromwell, but the second shows the Blue line terminating at Cromwell. Any timeframe?

With the city council in Baltimore, the timeline may be in the 27th century. The good thing is the system is light years away from what it was 10 years ago. If the council didn't drag their feet on other projects (slots, HQ hotel, new arena, Key Hwy, height limits, and many, many more) they would have time to tackle the subway.

Areas that need access are Catonsville/Ellicott City, Middle River/Essex, Cedonia, Belair, Loch Raven, Cherry Hill, and others.

Howard County has the "No Sign," "No Mass Transit," laws also known as the "Kill Every Tree With Car Emissions Law."

Getting a proper sized subway system would mean replacing everyone in the city council, and someone actually getting many other issues off the waiting list.

With the city council in Baltimore, the timeline may be in the 27th century. The good thing is the system is light years away from what it was 10 years ago. If the council didn't drag their feet on other projects (slots, HQ hotel, new arena, Key Hwy, height limits, and many, many more) they would have time to tackle the subway.

For better or worse, the city government doesn't have anything to do with the transit situation. The authority for that was taken over by the State back in about 1970. That means that Baltimore stands in line with the needs of the rest of the state. Not good. The subway, light rail and buses are all owned by the Maryland Transit Administration, which is part of the State Department of Transportation. In my not-so-humble opinion, we would be better off with a metropolitan authority rather than competing with DC area, roads in Cumberland, a new Bay Bridge, etc.

Areas that need access are Catonsville/Ellicott City, Middle River/Essex, Cedonia, Belair, Loch Raven, Cherry Hill, and others.

Add to that White Marsh, Towson, etc.

Howard County has the "No Sign," "No Mass Transit," laws also known as the "Kill Every Tree With Car Emissions Law."

Let them choke on their own sprawl. It will be even more fun when gas gets to about $3.50.

Getting a proper sized subway system would mean replacing everyone in the city council, and someone actually getting many other issues off the waiting list.

Getting a decent system will mean convincing the Governor to put it in the state budget. Transit is part of the MDOT budget and that budget is created by the Governor's staff. Under the state constitution, the State legislature can not add to that budget; they can only reduce it. The city council can only stand outside the door and beg. The current situation is a function of the previous governor who basically did nothing for 8 years except convene a committee that came up with a completely cool looking but financially unrealistic "Rail Plan" (the map posted below). The current budget put up $150,000,000 state and federal bucks to add a second track to 9 miles of light rail, so as you can guess, none of this comes cheap. The best thing we have going right now is to hope for the best on the Red line, which will run from Woodlawn through downtown to Fells Point or Canton. The state budgeted $250,000,000 for design and start-up construction on that but given that they will need Federal money and that comes up in 6 year cycles, it's gonna be a while before that happens, at best. It will probably be a "Bus Rapid Transit" line; subway would run into billions and is a non-starter. 6 years later, we might be discussing an extension of the current subway out to the northeast.

the second tower crane for canton tower is up. i was on another forum talking about dc and baltimore and getting bashed because we are not well represented there. it was the forum about the 4th largest city in the usa. i definately put my 10 cents worth in. hopefully they might come and take a peek.

Wow, the proposal almost fooled me for a sec. The DC subway is so extensive and reminded me of its map. Is that all supposed to be heavy rail or is it going to be light rail? Mix?

Both, I believe. :)

Wow, the proposal almost fooled me for a sec. The DC subway is so extensive and reminded me of its map. Is that all supposed to be heavy rail or is it going to be light rail? Mix?

The rail plan map is a pipe dream left over from the Glendenning administration. I will sound cynical when I say this but at the time I believed (and still do) that they drew this up knowing that they wouldn't be around to see it not happen. That plan has been put on the back burner in favor of a "Transit Plan" which mainly shows the Red Line (which is being planned now) and the Green Line (extension of the current subway). The rest of it is beyond the scope of forseeable planning cycles (more than 10 years away) and is purely speculative. At this point, the Red Line options appear to be BRT, light rail, "Enhanced Bus" or nothing. Subway, being at least $500,000,000 per mile of tunnel is not being considered. At that price, the old Rail Plan would make the Big Dig seem cheap.

BRT is considerably cheaper than light rail and, if done right, could be as effective. Done wrong, Bus Rapid Transit just becomes Bus. There are currently no specifics on the Green Line, but again, subway seems unlikely due to its incredible cost.

Apparently the MTA is also considering a long overdue revision of the bus lines, many of which are descended from the long dead street car lines. One small consequence of this is a bus line that goes directly from the Falls Road light rail stop to Towson (something that should have been done in 1992). They are running this temporarily during light rail construction as one of the shuttle buses replacing the light rail but a driver informed me that they plan to keep it when the trains are back.

Thanks Scando for the corrections.

But I remember an article about 4 months ago reducing the bus lines. I think some were eliminated in AA and Bmore counties. (If I'm not mistaken. I was in Philly at the time.)

I still don't see how the city has survived without connecting its suburbs. I've been in other cities can't imagine having the mass transit situation here. I remember when they charged extra for county fare. (How dumb?) Can you imagine that now?

It does, however, show how strong the city really is. Look at how Hunt Valley and Owings Mills are growing like wildfire since the Lightrail. Those areas are feeding the city. Connecting the other suburbs has to be on the table.

If Baltimore doesn't want to become a Buffalo, update the metro now!

Thanks Scando for the corrections.

But I remember an article about 4 months ago reducing the bus lines. I think some were eliminated in AA and Bmore counties. (If I'm not mistaken. I was in Philly at the time.)

There have been a few minor changes, but in the city at least, it seems that every bus line has a bunch of people who vigorously protest. Each one of those lines has its own ecosystem and at least a couple walker-wielding grandmas who won't be able to get the the doctor if this line is moved.

I still don't see how the city has survived without connecting its suburbs. I've been in other cities can't imagine having the mass transit situation here. I remember when they charged extra for county fare. (How dumb?) Can you imagine that now?

It does, however, show how strong the city really is. Look at how Hunt Valley and Owings Mills are growing like wildfire since the Lightrail. Those areas are feeding the city. Connecting the other suburbs has to be on the table.

If Baltimore doesn't want to become a Buffalo, update the metro now!

The basic problem with the MTA service is that they try to be too many things. One the one hand they are go-everywhere-slowly services for some people and for others it is commuter service that people want to be speedy. What happens is that they don't do either very well. For commuters you want direct straight lines and not too many stops except in dense areas. For the grandmas and the go everywhere people you want meandering cris-cross routes that stop at every corner. Suburb to suburb service is something they have never done much of (try to get a ride from Pikesville to White Marsh).

Unfortunately, none of the current long term plans even thinks about the Pikesville to White Marsh crowd. They will be left with the Beltway, which doesn't have much room left to expand, gets a little worse each year and has no successor planned either. In short, Baltimore is like most places in the US where transportation will continue to deteriorate and planners don't have answers that budget people can deal with. IMO, living in a transit friendly community or structuring your life around a reasonable commute or living in a walkable community is an act of personal self defense.

Here's a copy of the proposal for the new Baltimore Regional Transit System.

http://www.cphabaltimore.org/images/web/Rail_Plan_Large.jpg

Hey bro, I don't know what to say, but if Baltimore built and had a subway like that, I would be proud that yall finally gotten your heads out your asses and built what seems to be a world-class subway. I always thought that the only thing that Baltimore had was the Inner Harbor, Camden Yards, and murder and crime. I'm real proud of that map and your system. I wish Philadelphia had a more extensive subway system aimilar to NYC, but transit over there is fucked, literally FUCKED!!! There's only subway lines, when we should be having like eight of them in our city (sorry the PATCO , the commuter lines, and the subway surface lines don't count on our subway, IMO.) The only thing I'm against is the light rail on the city streets, I'm not a light rail fan, but I'm still proud that yall pulled your heads out your asses. Now only if that system gets built.......

Hmm, yeah. Seems that downtown is usually the first thing that comes to mind when one thinks of Baltimore, as far as attractions go. There's really more to it than that. You could do just about everything in the inner harbor in maybe 2-3 days, but it would take you at least another week to see everything else that is happening around town. Baltimore's roads are just ugly little things. Can't argue with that. I-170 was a dismal failure, being as it was left incomplete and didn't really act as much of a catalyst to the blighted west side. Going back 50 years, if Baltimore had almost no highways running through it except maybe I-95 and parts of I-83, yet built a subway, it would really be doing much better. As for the crime rate, it seems to be declining nicely while neighborhoods are being heavily renovated. Only time will tell..

I-170 was a dismal failure, being as it was left incomplete and didn't really act as much of a catalyst to the blighted west side. Going back 50 years, if Baltimore had almost no highways running through it except maybe I-95 and parts of I-83, yet built a subway, it would really be doing much better. As for the crime rate, it seems to be declining nicely while neighborhoods are being heavily renovated. Only time will tell..

Back in the 60's there was a plan to bring I 70, 93 and 95 all right into the city and intersect them. Problem was that roads would merge right downtown at the site of today's Inner Harbor. A little of 70 was built resulting in the destruction of hundreds of houses. The big merge downtown would have brought 95 up from DC through the Federal Hill area, they were going to actually tear down the hill itself and bridge across the harbor, cutting off boat traffic. The huge interchange would have also required the sacrifice of Fells Point and Canton; where Harborplace and Harbor East are now would have been on-ramps (see http://www.roadstothefuture.com/EW_Expwy_Harbor_Route_L.jpg. Fortunately neighborhood opposition stopped this malignantly grandiose plan. Thankfully, the only thing built was that orphaned mile of 70 that dead-ends in West Baltimore. Some relevant documents are posted on http://www.roadstothefuture.com/ , which also has a map of the original subway plan from back then (I wish the HAD built that).

This would have been an absolute disaster for the city. No inner harbor, no fells point, no camden yards.. Federal Hill and Canton would never have had any reason for redevelopment. Thank God this never hapened.

http://img77.echo.cx/img77/2586/ewexpwyharborroutel0fo.jpg

The great catalyst for Baltimore will be when their metro line connects with DCs.......especially at BWI airport...then you're talking about very serious intermingling of 7-8 million people.....EXample.........live in Tysons Corner VA......work in Baltimore....or whatever......

Will they ever extend the subway/rail hours instead of midnight?

The way thinigs are looking, connecting the two cities in a meaningful way may happen in the not too distant future. Our light rail line all ready goes to BWI airport.

There are about 20,000 jobs scheduled to be moved to Fort Meade as a result of the recent Base Reallignment and Closure go around. A Magnetic Levitation line is under study. If it is built, it will run from downtown Baltimore to downtown DC with a stop at the airport. Travel time will be less than 20 minutes.

http://www.baltimoredevelopment.com/initiatives_maglev.html

Personally, I DON'T WANT ALL THOSE WASHINGTONIANS COMING TO BALTIMORE. They are 2 different and distinct cities with 2 different and distinct personalities. If they were dogs, Baltimore would be a Golden Retriever and DC would be a Pit Bull!

Washingtonians - Stay away! There is nothing in Baltimore. The crime rate is high and it's all slums. The Inner Harbor has been demolished. I'm serious. You have it much better where you are! Even the climate is worse in Baltimore. We get more snow. Go south. It's really bad here!

I'm not so sure the Baltimore Regional Rail Plan is entirely dead, although it is certainly well into the future. The website is still updated on a fairly frequent basis, and I received an e-mail not too long ago from Shiela Dixon's transit advisor who linked me to the BRRP website to learn more about the future of transit in Baltimore. Granted, the Rail Plan is on a 40 year timeline, and it's already running behind after the first year, but at least the big picture is still there. It's definitely focusing on the Red and Green lines though. Nevertheless, I can't imagine a comprehensive rail system in Baltimore looking much different than the map posted earlier. It hits just about every necessary place in the city.

What I don't understand about the map is that the Purple Line and the Orange Line run alongside the current MARC Train routes, which mean there is already tracking and a right of way present. Would it be really all that difficult to add a few more tracks and get that line up and running in the near future? It would be very similar to the double-tracking project that is going on right now, right?

So you're saying Baltimore climate is colder than DC?

This would have been an absolute disaster for the city. No inner harbor, no fells point, no camden yards.. Federal Hill and Canton would never have had any reason for redevelopment. Thank God this never hapened.

http://img77.echo.cx/img77/2586/ewexpwyharborroutel0fo.jpg

LOL!

But it had trees and a walkway!?!?! C'mon, that's not better?

Don't you just love what the 60s did to all of our cities? Good thing you dodged that missile.

Yeah... any highway running like that has to be the most uninspired and wasteful use of a waterfront. I mean really, the highway walls off two of those shorelines like a prison, separating downtown from the water. Wow, it would have been an artistic and urban catastrophe. To hell with those concrete monstrosities! :)

Amen. They could have built those things 12 lanes wide in each direction and you still wouldn't get anyplace fast!

Yeah... any highway running like that has to be the most uninspired and wasteful use of a waterfront. I mean really, the highway walls off two of those shorelines like a prison, separating downtown from the water. Wow, it would have been an artistic and urban catastrophe. To hell with those concrete monstrosities! :)


Of all the half built highways in Baltimore, I think that I-70 should of been finished to I-170 ( which sees 40k cars a day so it is used) and I-95 (would of been near the caton ave. exit). Commuters could then flow directly from the west side and N. Howard Co. into downtown. Additionally Balt. Co. would of maintained its orginal plan to develop the Patapsco area as anouther growth area similer to white Marsh.

Compleating 83 to 95 would of been a waste of concreate. And thank God that they didn't go with that 1960's plan.

I think that the priority mass rail expansion should be to extend the green line a mile or so to the marc/amtrak line and build a big, secure transfer station. That way you could leverage the Marc trains into getting commutters directly downtown, instead of Penn Station which is too far uptown.

Of all the half built highways in Baltimore, I think that I-70 should of been finished to I-170 ( which sees 40k cars a day so it is used) and I-95 (would of been near the caton ave. exit). Commuters could then flow directly from the west side and N. Howard Co. into downtown. Additionally Balt. Co. would of maintained its orginal plan to develop the Patapsco area as anouther growth area similer to white Marsh.

You will never see that happen. In the 70's there was a federal lawsuit filed by those who opposed the highway. The only way to connect the 2 highways is to go directly through Leakin Park. The city signed a concent decree to settle the suit agreeing not to do that because of the environmental damage. The money was then transferred to help build the subway system.

I agree, it would make life easy for the suburbanites coming in from the west. Of course, if you lived in one of the city neighborhoods next to the highway, you would have to put up with all the noise and pollution and you would get little or no benefit from the project.

You guys know that will all be done in like a million years! :jk:

If the BAltimore City Council Really puts their mind to it, they may get this mass transit really completed. On the 2nd map, why is there a stop in Texas, and why not a stop just inside the beltway, on the blue line. That is like Bellona Ave. right? And there's lots of offices there.

The only way to connect the 2 highways is to go directly through Leakin Park.

If it'll never happen, then why wouldn't they remove the stub ends sticking into the park, and just terminate the expressway at Security Blvd with a more compact T-intersection and get rid of that massive cloverleaf thing? Would seem to open up alot of probably prime real estate...

(I'm only knowing where these things are because I cheated and looked at a map lol)

Further looking at that map, your highway system looks more incomplete than many I've seen. Lots of overbuilt highway terminal interchanges, meaning there must have been extension plans at one time - Rte 10 Arundel Expwy, I-70, I-195, US-29 Columbia Pike, Rte. 702 (mostly there), I-83/Jones Falls Expwy, and then the obvious I-83 and I-395 truncations. Was there ever a plan to tunnel the inner harbor?

When subway started built in Baltimore? I thought it was in around 80's or 90's.

I think it is more likely that this plan will either be built quickly or not at all rather than slowly over time. After the street cars were removed, Baltimore mass transit was pretty much non-existent until the metro subway and light rail were built,which were all done very quickly and within about a decade. As everyone has been saying, if it becomes a priority for MTA, in spite of the big price tag, it can be done fairly quickly. If it does not become a priority, it will most likely be dropped altogether until a new plan becomes a priority. It's unlikely that MTA will stick with the same plan other fifty or a hundred years.

Has there been any word on the Charles Street Corridor Street Car system lately?

What I don't understand about the map is that the Purple Line and the Orange Line run alongside the current MARC Train routes, which mean there is already tracking and a right of way present. Would it be really all that difficult to add a few more tracks and get that line up and running in the near future? It would be very similar to the double-tracking project that is going on right now, right?

It does seem like these would be the easiest lines to set up. However, if I remember correctly from reading the original Baltimore Regional Rail System plan brochure, I don't think the plan was to add tracks to these lines but to add metro-like service to the existing lines. I'm not sure if there would physically be enough room to add tracks on some sections of the corridors.

The FAQ on the MARC section of the MTA site (which reads like list of very wordy excuses for poor service) offers this reason why they can't increase MARC service:

"While we have not been in a position to add new services in recent years, we are aware that CSX would not welcome extra service outside of our present service hours. Amtrak would operate extra trains but they would have to fit in with Amtrak service."

If that is the case then I don't see how they could add metro-like service on these tracks.

^^ Interesting. But wouldn't you need to add new tracks in order to add metro-like service to them anyway? How can you have multiple services running at different speeds along the same tracks?

This looks amazing. It's too bad there just isn't enough money available to make this a reality.

http://www.cphabaltimore.org/images/web/Rail_Plan_Large.jpg

That plan was supposed to unfold over a forty year timeline anyway. I think it's more than feasible to assume it could happen in even less time than that if it becomes a priority, but it probably won't.

I think it is more likely that this plan will either be built quickly or not at all rather than slowly over time. After the street cars were removed, Baltimore mass transit was pretty much non-existent until the metro subway and light rail were built,which were all done very quickly and within about a decade. As everyone has been saying, if it becomes a priority for MTA, in spite of the big price tag, it can be done fairly quickly. If it does not become a priority, it will most likely be dropped altogether until a new plan becomes a priority. It's unlikely that MTA will stick with the same plan other fifty or a hundred years.

Has there been any word on the Charles Street Corridor Street Car system lately?

Slowly is the word. The time is pretty much determined by the funding cycles of both the state and the federal governments. The State has to allocate $ to pay for preliminary planning and then go to the Feds who budget transporation projects in 6 year batches (like the one recently signed by Bush that included money for the Red Line and the bridge to nowhere in Alaska). In all likelihood, if all goes well, the Red Line will be planned for a couple more years, construction will start slowly and then the state will ask for more Federal money to finish it. This will be years down the road. Since nothing has been done on the other colors on that rail plan map, you can figure how distant they are. Even if it is a priority for MTA, it's all going to take a while.

To get anything any faster, we need somebody in office with a will like Shaffer who didn't use federal money to build the light rail and wouldn't take no for an answer. They took all sorts of shortcuts that MTA has spent 10 years fixing but it was probably the cheapest 30 miles of rails built any time recently.

It does seem like these would be the easiest lines to set up. However, if I remember correctly from reading the original Baltimore Regional Rail System plan brochure, I don't think the plan was to add tracks to these lines but to add metro-like service to the existing lines. I'm not sure if there would physically be enough room to add tracks on some sections of the corridors.

The FAQ on the MARC section of the MTA site (which reads like list of very wordy excuses for poor service) offers this reason why they can't increase MARC service:

"While we have not been in a position to add new services in recent years, we are aware that CSX would not welcome extra service outside of our present service hours. Amtrak would operate extra trains but they would have to fit in with Amtrak service."

If that is the case then I don't see how they could add metro-like service on these tracks.

From what I understand, the State rents the rails from CSX on the cheap. This means that MARC is low priority to get back on the tracks when things get delayed by an event that delays other trains. I'd like to see how that right of way could be expanded but from where it goes, it doesn't appear to me that it has much potential as a transit line. It mainly seems to go where the people aren't.

Here's a copy of the proposal for the new Baltimore Regional Transit System.

http://www.cphabaltimore.org/images/web/Rail_Plan_Large.jpg

This is a dream at best.

The redline meeting at the the Biopark.

maybe the next big news will be soon afer obama takes office.

redline meeting info
http://www.baltimoreredline.com/citizens-advisory-council

Upcoming Meetings

Thursday, January 8, 2009

7:00 p.m.

University of Maryland, Baltimore BioPark Life Sciences Conference Center

Invent and Advance Conference Rooms, 1st Floor

801 W. Baltimore Street
Baltimore, MD 21201



Parking is available in the UMB BioPark garage at 1 N. Poppleton Street - payment is CASH ONLY.



This meeting is open to the public. Members of the public are welcomed at the meetings and may express their opinions at such times as designated by the agenda or when recognized by the Co-Chairs.

The CAC meets on the second Thursday of each month at various locations along the study corridor. Advance notification will be given regarding the specific time and location of each meeting.

ooops the meeting above is over.

If you live in the NE part of the city youre screwed. The Green line is not coming any time soon if at all. There is major Metro in Baltimore, I have friends that live on the westside of town that love the subway system.