I wanna know: Is the Bombardier tram-on-tyres in Nancy operating, despite the problems? I wanna see any picsand technical informations... thanx

Those Bombardier TVR aren't tram on tyres. They are guided buses that use bodies of LRTs to disguise them. They have a steering wheel and operates like a long bus, including some routes in Nancy. And overall, they have been a technological disaster, which is a plus for rail proponents.

The only true tram on tyres are the ones made by Translohr. Unlike the Bombardier TVR, the Translohr rubber tired tram are bi-directional and don't leave the guideway. Plus the ride of the Translohr is practically at par with LRTs. Fortunately, the proprietory nature of such beasts ensures that the conventional LRTs will continue to be the preferred choice of light rapid transit for centuries to come.

Bombardier's guided bus system for Nancy has been plagued by technical problems; however, other guided bus systems have been quite successful. The pictures below are of the Civis buses operating in Las Vegas, which are equiped with optical guidance equipment to follow dashed lines painted in the roadway. This allows the bus to dock with station platforms very precisely. An electric trolley bus version is also available. The Civis system duplicates most of the benefits of a conventional tram without the expense of the rail infrastructure:

http://www.rtcsouthernnevada.com/max/images/vehicle_2.jpg

http://www.rtcsouthernnevada.com/max/images/vehicle_6.jpg

http://www.rtcsouthernnevada.com/max/images/shelter_1.gif

http://www.rtcsouthernnevada.com/max/images/shelter_2.gif

http://www.rtcsouthernnevada.com/max/images/vehicle_3.jpg

http://www.rtcsouthernnevada.com/max/images/vehicle_8.jpg

The following are two videos of the MAX operation:

http://www.rtcsouthernnevada.com/max/pressroom/videos/MAX%20at%20station%20optical%20guidance.mpeg

http://www.rtcsouthernnevada.com/max/pressroom/videos/MAX2%20at%20station%20optical%20guidance.mpeg

For more information, see the website for the Southern Nevada Regional Transportation Commission:

http://www.rtcsouthernnevada.com/max/

The following is some information on the Translohr system:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.lohr.fr/transport-public.htm

http://www.lohr.fr/pics/translohr-tvm.jpg http://www.lohr.fr/pics/translohr-interieur02.jpg http://www.lohr.fr/pics/translohr-interieur.jpg http://www.lohr.fr/pics/translohr-essieu-guidage.gif

http://www.lohr.fr/pics/translohr-laquilab.jpg

http://www.lohr.fr/pics/translohr-clermontb.jpg

http://www.lohr.fr/pics/translohr-padoueb.jpg

http://www.lohr.fr/pics/translohr-sakaib.jpg

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.mitsui-tr.co.jp/english/goods/translohr.htm

http://www.mitsui-tr.co.jp/english/goods/images/lrt_02.jpg

Import of Proto-type Rubber Tire LRT “Translohr” from Lohr Industrie, France

Rubber tire LRT "TRANSLOHR"

Mitsui & Co., Ltd. entered into a purchase contract with Lohr Industrie for a rubber tire vehicle LRT called “Translohr” to conduct a series of safety tests. At the same time, Mitsui, Toshiba, Nippon Densetsu Kogyo, Totetsu Kogyo, Daitetsu Kogyo, Tokyu Car Corporation, and MITSUI BUSSAN Transportation System agreed to cooperate for construction, maintenance and operation of the test line, which includes a sub-station, catenaries, rail, running track, and maintenance facilities.

The test line will be approx. 500 meters and is planned to be constructed on the premises of the Nippon Steel Sakai works, located in Sakai city, Osaka prefecture. The series of tests and demonstrations of Translohr, using one train set composed of 3 cars, to the potential customers, such as local governments and railway operators, are scheduled to be executed during a 3-year period starting from 2004 April.

Translohr is a rubber tire LRT (Light Rail Transit) with 100% super low floor cabin. The most significant characteristic is a single rail laid in the center of its track, which is used as a guiding system. Upon completion of its development in 2001 by Lohr Industrie S.A., France, Translohr has gained much attention in Europe recently as a new generation public transportation system, having successfully obtained 4 contracts in Europe. Translohr possesses the following advantages over conventional steel wheel LRT, which allow for minimal modification of existing infrastructures, resulting in the reduction of cost and the construction period and provides more ample choice to the operators in defining the route:
- Simplified and lightweight track structure.
- Lightweight vehicle.
- Increase of the vehicle’s capabilities by the use of rubber tires, such as use on gradients, improved deceleration and acceleration, comfort, low noise (high performance with environmental friendly system).

Mitsui has been passionately working for the diffusion of a straddle-type monorail since the Expo in Osaka in 1970, and has accumulated experience not only in Japan in the project management of a series of E&M procurement and installation projects, but also in China for the supply of vehicles, switches, and signals for the Chongqing city project. Making use of these experiences, Mitsui is committed to promoting Translohr as a pioneer in the LRT market in Asia through the demonstration of the technology.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.apta.com/services/intnatl/intfocus/paristram.cfm

Elegant, Modular Rubber-Tire Tram Debuts in Paris Guideway Demonstration
The Translohr, a new generation rubber tire electric transit system, recently began demonstration runs on the 12.5-kilometer Trans Val de Marne Bus Rapid Transit corridor operated by APTA member Regie Autonome des Transports Parisiens, the public transit authority in Paris.

One of three novel medium-size guided transit systems, the Translohr, turned out by France’s Lohr Industrie takes its place in sequential demonstrations on the Paris BRT corridor along with Bombardier's Guided Light Transit and the Irisbus Civis vehicle. The Trans Val de Marne BRT corridor is being made available for tests of the advanced hybrid and rubber tire transit systems in limited revenue service to allow teams from French cities in search of future medium capacity systems to see competitors' vehicles on a "level playing field," according to Guy Bourgeois, the RATP project administrator.

The TVR dual mode guided vehicle was operated on the corridor for about two years, carrying 240,000 passengers a total of 300,000 km, and receiving visits from 160 delegations. The demonstration of the tramway-type modular Translohr began in December 2000 and is expected to run through 2001, to be succeeded by the optically guided dual mode Civis next year.

Three French cities and suburban jurisdictions in the Ile de France region surrounding Paris have opted thus far for the GLT, while Translohr is in the bidding stage. Civis has already been selected by several French communities and will be on display in Las Vegas during the APTA Annual Meeting and EXPO in September 2002,with the first production vehicle due to arrive for service in Las Vegas in May 2003.

A consortium of more than two dozen public and private partners, most of them French, are funding the combined demonstrations to allow elected officials and transit planners to make appropriate choices for their respective cities.

The modular, bi-direction Translohr now in operation on the Val de Marne Busway, guided along a shallow central rail, varies in length from 18 to 39 meters; it can carry from 2,000 to 5,000 passengers per hour and direction, depending on the number of articulated modules chosen. It can go off line under its own battery power to return to the depot or negotiate wireless stretches or tunnels. The manufacturer also states that the vehicle is low floor throughout, has a narrow turning circle, can negotiate gradients up to 13 percent, and costs half as much to build than a conventional tramway.

The RATP is promoting a Europe-wide research project to compare and bench, mark the new rubber-tired, bi-modal guided systems to recommend vehicle safety standards. A total of 24 partners in five countries—France, Italy, Spain, Sweeden, and the United Kingdom—-have signed up.

Bombardier's website features a couple of webpages describing the guided bus system produced for Nancy:

http://www.bombardier.com/en/1_0/1_2/1_2_2_2_1.jsp

http://www.bombardier.com/en/1_0/1_2/1_2_2_2_1_1.jsp

http://www.bombardier.com/en/1_0/img/122211c.gif

A good description of the problems encountered with the Nancy guided bus can be found at the following website:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/c.fuller1/Tvr.html

Light Rail Now features a somewhat strident webpage concerning the problems with the Nancy system:

http://www.lightrailnow.org/features/f_ncy001.htm

The first Irisbus of the world in Rouen ( Las Vegas people came here before bought their own ), it is wonderful to be inside indeed, air conditionned and so on... it's top !

http://www.transbus.org/construc/irisbus_civis_teor.jpg

The second Irisbus (and also second generation, closer to its american brother) is in Clermont-Ferrand.

http://milanotrasporti.ferrovie.ch/IMG/jpg/civis-beltrami-1.jpg

Sorry, i found them so well designed, i wanted to post pics :cheers:

Also, this is the one that was sold to american investors ! Put only an american flag on it and iit's money in the pocket lol

http://www.eere.energy.gov/news/images/04_11_09_train.jpg

I'm not sure how effective the docking mechanism of the Civis guided bus is, especially compared to those pics above and pics from daily operations.

Look how close the Civis is to the platform on the marketing pics but not too close when compared with everyday usage (I found photos of it from Skyscraperpage Gallery by Efren Aquino).

Marketing Pic
http://www.rtcsouthernnevada.com/max/images/vehicle_8.jpg
Normal Pic
http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/data/500/190nottooprecise.jpg

Marketing Pic
http://www.eere.energy.gov/news/images/04_11_09_train.jpg
Normal Pic
http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/data/500/190nottooprecise2.jpg

Notice the bus driver is still steering the vehicle even though it is suppose to be self docking.

http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/data/500/190guidanceisuseless2.jpg

http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/data/500/190guidanceisuseless3.jpg

Also, note how easily the painted lines of the Civis fades. To think this was from a desert city where there isn't really that much rain or snow to make the lines fade so much....

http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/data/500/190fadedlines.jpg

http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/data/500/190dirtylines.jpg

Is Civis really that successful as a BRT vehicle? Other than Las Vegas and a couple of French cities, I've never seen other cities use it or consider it seriously.

Normal Pic
http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/data/500/190nottooprecise2.jpg


Thank you for the information. This is the first unfavorable report I have seen regarding the performance of the Civis buses in Las Vegas. There are some other fundamental limitations of the system:

1. It functions reliably only at low speeds.
2. It won't function if the lines are obscured by snow.

One other complaint I've seen is that the diesel hybrid version is not very energy efficient. This seems to be a common complaint of hybrid buses.

Maintenance of the painted lines must be very critical to the performance of the system. It will be interesting to see whether Las Vegas decides to expand the system or junk it.

I wanna know: Is the Bombardier tram-on-tyres in Nancy operating, despite the problems? I wanna see any picsand technical informations... thanx

Yes, it works but the average speed is lower than expected. The second line is postponed and should not use the same technology (one central guiding rail).

Yes, it works but the average speed is lower than expected. The second line is postponed and should not use the same technology (one central guiding rail).

Wow! thats *very* interesting - so they are going to look at the Translohr then?

I think the French systems also onlyallow for "hands free" operation at low speeds. The guidance system was originally designed to assist with "docking" at bus stops - not for full time use.

Clermont-Ferrand found the hybrid Civis buses to be so expensive and fuel inefficent that they are switching back to regular diesel buses.

Milan is introducing the 100% electric versions (unguided) as upgrades on its trolleybus system. Similar also operate in Lyon and have been found to be much more economical.

Another Italian city (its name escapes me right now) is also poised to introduce a large fleet of these buses (around 50) - but again in 100% electric format.

There is much more info (plus pics) on this webpage...

http://www.garden.force9.co.uk/Buses03.htm

Simon

Similar also operate in Lyon and have been found to be much more economical.


Yes, the "trolley" version of the civis used in Lyon is excellent: It goes fast, and I think it's more powerfull than a diesel bus.

http://www.lyon-en-lignes.org/Phototheque/albums/userpics/10001/1908%20Ligne%201%20Hotel%20de%20Ville.jpg

....and the snow is not really a problem ;)

http://www.lyon-en-lignes.org/Phototheque/albums/userpics/10001/1916%20Ligne%201%20Bat%20d_Argent%2028%2012%202004.JPG

Yes, the "trolley" version of the civis used in Lyon is excellent: It goes fast, and I think it's more powerfull than a diesel bus.


....and the snow is not really a problem ;)

http://www.lyon-en-lignes.org/Phototheque/albums/userpics/10001/1916%20Ligne%201%20Bat%20d_Argent%2028%2012%202004.JPG



Remember though, they do NOT use the guidance system in Lyon (not yet, anway).

Simon

ps, like the pics!

I looked through Mr. Aquino's Skyscraper gallery. One of the first photos in the Las Vegas guided bus sequence is the following:

The caption states, "Irisbus Civis stuck in traffic." This is pure speculation on my part, but what are the chances that the bus was delayed by traffic and that the driver chose to regain some schedule time by approaching stations at higher speeds than allowed for the optical guidance system? As the bus approaches each station, the driver can clearly see the people waiting on the platform. If none of the people waiting appear to have disabilities, it would be perfectly reasonable to approach at higher speed and not use the optical guidance system. Of course, it is impossible to know for sure that this was the case without having a statement from the driver.



But if you look at the pics closely that I posted, it seems that at least two buses are involved in the Skyscraperpage gallery. One is driven by a woman (if you look closely on the one where the bus is about to dock at a station with the cop, you can see red manicured nails) and one is driven by an African American. In both instances, despite the optical guidance of the Civis, they still use their hands to steer the bus. Given that the optical guidance feature inflates the price of a Civis, it makes you wonder why would you buy such a vehicle for your bus fleet if drivers still use their hands to steer.

Also, the fact that the Civis bus, a supposedly alternative to rapid rail transit, gets stuck in traffic, is very slow and very fuel inefficient, and does not provide rail like service in a full time basis (marketing pics vs normal pics) does make you question the value of such a system. Why not just use cheaper conventional buses with skilled drivers? Or if you really like the look of the Civis, just use the unguided trolley version?

As far as successes are concerned, again, how many cities have opted for the Civis vs conventional LRT or even conventional buses for BRT? I heard a rumour somewhere that the Irisbus North America office have moved from New Jersey to Las Vegas, presumably for the sole purpose of servicing the existing 10 Irisbus Civis fleet that operate in that city because Irisbus North America failed to sell these buses to cities looking to build BRT systems such as Atlanta or Charlotte.

I think that the Civis bus vehicles are very nice buses. However, I would not describe Las Vegas' system as true Rapid Transit. True it does have level boarding, but it doesn't run on dedicated corridors and therefore competes with traffic. To have true Rapid Transit you need vehicles operating on dedicated corridors that aren't interfered with by traffic. I think that a good BRT system will be like an LRT on rubber tires, kind of like the Montreal Metro uses rubber tires. The Metro is still considered a subway, then why should we treat a BRT system that operates on dedicated corridors with service equal to that of LRT as inferior? Also a BRT system will be flexible at the end will be able to get off the guideway to serve a specific destination. There will still need to be feeder buses for it is impractical and impossible to eliminate transfers.

The Montreal Metro is not a bus. Its a train that happens to use rubber tires instead of steel wheels. It has no steering wheel, it operates like a train and cannot get out of its guideway.

And the reason why BRTs are inferior is because they are buses, not trains. Its not just about service level; its also about psychology and attractiveness. You can make buses look like trains but they are still buses and therefore continue to hold the stigma that sticks to buses. People are simply not attracted to buses as they are to trains. And if people want flexibility, they would use their own rubber tire vehicles.....their own car!

The attractiveness of rail based systems is the fact that they are NOT flexible. They are permanent and it is that sense of permanence that give the route and area the presence of a dedicated and decent rapid transit system that would allow residents and developers to build transit oriented development.

Bombardier and Irisbus try to make their buses look like trains but the commuting public has not been fooled and their systems are just crap.

I can see how the new buses look better and are probably much more comfortable. They would be suitable for high traffic level routes or Transitways like Ottawa's {bus lanes completly separated from the streets by there own bus roads.
But the guided one's I thinkjk would be somwhat useless in climates with cold weather, snow, and ice.
they do have the stigma of still just being a bus.

I can, however, see these as being very practible in the develpoing worls. Cheaper than LRT or subway and buses don't have the negative stigma there.

Much of the discussion on this thread has focused on pictures from Mr. Aquino's Skyscraper gallery of the Las Vegas Civis buses. I thought I should post the full collection of pictures along with the captions for those who are interested. There are 20 pictures, so I'm only posting the thumbnails and providing links to the full size versions. The original gallery can be found at the following link:

http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/showgallery.php?cat=500&si=Efren%20Aquino&thumb=1&page=1&sort=1&perpage=12&ppuser=190&stype=2

1. "Irisibus Civis actually broke down in my trip"
http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/data/500/190busbrokedown-thumb.jpg
http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/data/500/190busbrokedown.jpg

2. "Irisbus Civis in downtown Las Vegas"
http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/data/500/190stuckintraffic2-thumb.jpg
http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/data/500/190stuckintraffic2.jpg

3. "Irisbus Civis in an intersection"
http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/data/500/190nottrainlike2-thumb.jpg
http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/data/500/190nottrainlike2.jpg

4. "Irisbus Civis stuck in traffic"
http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/data/500/190stuckintraffic1-thumb.jpg
http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/data/500/190stuckintraffic1.jpg

5. "IrisBus Civis is truly a bus, not a rubber tire tram"
http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/data/500/190nottrainlike-thumb.jpg
http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/data/500/190nottrainlike.jpg

6. "Irisbus Civis not too close to the station 2"
http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/data/500/190nottooprecise-thumb.jpg
http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/data/500/190nottooprecise.jpg

7. "Irisbus Civis not too close to the station"
http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/data/500/190nottooprecise2-thumb.jpg
http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/data/500/190nottooprecise2.jpg

8. "Optical Guidance of Irisbus Civis is Useless4"
http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/data/500/190guidanceisuselss4-thumb.jpg
http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/data/500/190guidanceisuselss4.jpg

9. "Optical Guidance of Irisbus Civis is Useless3"
http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/data/500/190guidanceisuseless3-thumb.jpg
http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/data/500/190guidanceisuseless3.jpg

10. "Optical Guidance of Irisbus Civis is Useless2"
http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/data/500/190guidanceisuseless2-thumb.jpg
http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/data/500/190guidanceisuseless2.jpg

11. "Optical Guidance of Irisbus Civis is Useless1"
http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/data/500/190guidanceisuseless1-thumb.jpg
http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/data/500/190guidanceisuseless1.jpg

12. "Gap between the guided bus and station 4"
http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/data/500/190gapindocking4-thumb.jpg
http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/data/500/190gapindocking4.jpg

13. "Gap between the guided bus and station 3"
http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/data/500/190gapindocking3-thumb.jpg
http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/data/500/190gapindocking3.jpg

14. "Gap between the guided bus and station 2"
http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/data/500/190gapindocking2-thumb.jpg
http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/data/500/190gapindocking2.jpg

15. "Gap between the guided bus and station 1"
http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/data/500/190gapindocking1-thumb.jpg
http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/data/500/190gapindocking1.jpg

16. "Fading guiding white lines of the Irisbus Civis 2"
http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/data/500/190fadedlines2-thumb.jpg

http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/data/500/190fadedlines2.jpg
17. "Fading guiding white lines of the Irisbus Civis"
http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/data/500/190fadedlines-thumb.jpg
http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/data/500/190fadedlines.jpg

18. "Las Vegas Downtown Transit Center"
http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/data/500/190dtc-thumb.jpg
http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/data/500/190dtc.jpg

19. "Dirty white guidance lines"
http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/data/500/190dirtylines-thumb.jpg
http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/data/500/190dirtylines.jpg

20. "Interior of the Irisbus Civis"
http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/data/500/190civisinterior-thumb.jpg
http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/data/500/190civisinterior.jpg

Pictures 5 and 18 seem to have been taken in the transit center, which has no guidance lines for the buses. Picture 5 might represent a typical docking situation for the bus when the guidance system is not used. The gap appears to be about a foot.

Pictures 6, 12, 13, 14, and 15 probably appear to have been taken at stations with the guidance lines. Figure 15 includes the toe of a shoe for reference. I would estimate the gap at between 4" and 6". ADA requirements are for a maximum 5/8" vertical gap and a 3" horizontal gap for rail vehicles or a 1" horizontal gap for automated guideway people movers. (I guess the rail industry's political lobby was a lot more effective than the people mover industry's political lobby.) The gap shown in the pictures clearly does not meet the ADA requirements.

The docking precision claimed for the Civis system is +/- 3.5 cm, which is about 1 3/8". Clearly this wasn't achieved in the pictures of the Las Vegas system. Without more information, it is impossible to know whether this was because the guidance lines were faded, the drivers were in a hurry and intervened, or the system just plain failed to work.

There is a good US DOT report at the link below on trials of the various rubber-tired tram systems in Paris. Unfortunately, the report does not include any information on the conclusions of the trials:

http://www.calstart.org/programs/brt/archives/brt_paris_trip_report.pdf

WOW!!!! The Civis is suppose to be brand new but it actually broke down as seen in PIC #1!!! I think that pic alone shows that the system has indeed failed.

Also, I think the gaps are an important point on why the system isn't as good as it is suppose to be. One nifty thing about modern rail based system are people in wheel chairs and strollers can simply roll from the platform to the vehicle without the aide of ramps. This results in much faster boarding times. If a ramp is required for the Civis, then what would be the point of the docking system? It would just slow down boarding, thus eliminating the "rapid" part of the BRT.

Did a google search on "Irisbus Civis" and "Skyscraperpage" together since there must be a thread in the forum that also discusses this. The reaction of the people in the thread seems to be utter dread and relief when the transit authority opted for light rail instead so I don't think this vehicle is loved by all.

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?threadid=49070

The thread is very interesting because it shows some kind of historical evolution on how this guided bus was proposed in the Vancouver area and was later rejected for a much more conventional LRT (which is the focus of the thread in the later pages).

It doesn't seem as cool as light rail in my opinion.

very futuristic

It doesn't seem as cool as light rail in my opinion.

I realize that this is a matter of opinion. This is my coolness ranking:

Minimally Cool (Conventional Buses):
http://www.nabiusa.com/buses/upload/res_40lfw.jpg http://www.newflyer.com/pix/D35LF_Austin.gif

Somewhat Cool (Guided Buses & Electric Trolley Buses):
http://www.rtcsouthernnevada.com/max/images/vehicle_6_thumb.jpg http://transit.metrokc.gov/photos/vehicles/am-gilligtrolley.jpeg

Marginally Cooler (Rubber-Tired Trams & Light Rail):
http://www.lohr.fr/pics/translohr-laquila.jpg http://www.bombardier.com/en/1_0/img/11115b.jpg

Much Cooler (Grade Separated Rail):
http://www.bombardier.com/en/1_0/img/11213b.jpg http://www.bombardier.com/en/1_0/img/122111b.jpg

Coolest (Maglev & Monorail):
http://www.meitetsu.co.jp/chsst/imgs/bod.gif http://www.bombardier.com/en/1_0/img/122121b.jpg

The Montreal Metro is not a bus. Its a train that happens to use rubber tires instead of steel wheels. It has no steering wheel, it operates like a train and cannot get out of its guideway.

And the reason why BRTs are inferior is because they are buses, not trains. Its not just about service level; its also about psychology and attractiveness. You can make buses look like trains but they are still buses and therefore continue to hold the stigma that sticks to buses. People are simply not attracted to buses as they are to trains. And if people want flexibility, they would use their own rubber tire vehicles.....their own car!

The attractiveness of rail based systems is the fact that they are NOT flexible. They are permanent and it is that sense of permanence that give the route and area the presence of a dedicated and decent rapid transit system that would allow residents and developers to build transit oriented development.

Bombardier and Irisbus try to make their buses look like trains but the
commuting public has not been fooled and their systems are just crap.

First of all what makes rail so great. Yes certainty is an important factor. You know for sure that if the train starts at one end it is going to end with the other. LRT is great, but does LRT necessarily need to use metal wheels on metal tracks? I used the Metro as an example where a subway used rubber tire vehicles. A guideway BRT would be like an LRT using rubber tired vehicles. It would have all the wonderful features that LRT has:
-Certainty or Permanence (you know it goes from one end to the other, no getting off midway)
-Speed (travels on dedicated corridors at up to 80km/h)
-Safety (travels on mechanical guideway, which by the way can work in winter weather)
-Efficiency (travels on a dedicated corridor away from traffic)
-Comfort (Stations would be sheltered and climate controlled. Hub Stations could be entire buildings with shops and retail)
-Frequency (buses could operate with headways of as little as 1 min)
-Smooth Ride (a guideway makes the ride much smoother)
-Image (this a bus on a rail, not just a bus on a road)
-Level Boarding (will use low floor vehicles with level boarding, which ironically some LRT systems don't have like DART)
-Environment (the system can use trolley or diesel-electric buses)

As you can see this Bus-rail system would operate like an LRT except that it uses rubber tired vehicles. I realize like many LRT buffs that a lot of BRT systems aren't really rapid transit and are a half assed solution. This system will have a few additional features. First of all, no driver steering is required for guideway sections, the guideway does the job. Second of all, the Bus unlike an LRT vehicle can 'hop' off the tracks and go to a particular destination. In Winnipeg, the dedicated corridor to the University of Manitoba actually ends about 2 kms from the actual University. With an LRT system, passengers would have to transfer to a bus which is inconvenient and inefficient. With a Bus-rail system, the bus could get off the guideway and go directly to the University on normal streets. Thus an unnecessary and inconvenient transfer is avoided on a congested route.

There is also no reason why a Bus-rail system would not spur Transit Oriented Development. The system would be handling large numbers of passengers and therefore encourage development like LRT. Also I believe that Public Transit can't just be something to relieve congestion. It should ideally be the ideal mode for getting anywhere in the city. Cars are expensive, polluting, inefficient and less safe when compared to public transit. A car culture also promotes sprawl and environments where people don't walk. If you are going to leave flexibility to cars, then you're basically saying that LRT comes secondary to cars. I have done a thorough examination for what Rapid Transit system is best for Winnipeg. I can give you the presentation if you like. We did consider LRT at first, but realized it wouldn't serve our city as well as a Bus-rail system. Also LRT would be four to five times as expensive. LRT may be great for other cities, but Bus-rail is best for Winnipeg.

^ First and foremost there is no such thing as bus-rail. The closest thing there is to a bus-rail is the kerb guided bus system like the one in Nottingham, UK (same city from the Robin Hood stories).

http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/transportissues/photos/guidedbus.jpg

And frankly, those things are so butt ugly and simply does not make any sense. Hence why the kerb guided bus has not been used in great numbers unlike the conventional LRT.

Also, one thing that you have to realize is the Montreal Metro simply is not a bus. It has no steering wheel and is completely dependent on the guideway infrastructure to make it work. Its dependency on its track is identical to that of a steel wheeled train.

If people board a bus pretending to be a rail vehicle, the physical presence of steering mechanism and the fact that the same vehicles can be seen roaming in the streets away from the guideway brings a stigma that is embeded in modern day culture. And having a one minute headway does not make sense since it will just increase the operating cost so much the system will loose money.

You can play with the technicalities all you want such as having a physical guideway in the street or manipulating headway frequencies but the bottom line is it is the people who would ultimately use the system. And if the target market (people who you are trying to give up their cars for transit) step inside a vehicle and sees anything that resembles a bus, then it won't make it attractive.

The bottom line is this. The main attraction of a rail based system that get people out of cars and into transit and therefore spurring transit oriented development isn't the headway or the speed or the rail like features. It is the rail vehicle itself!

http://tt.tiedinburgh.co.uk/downloads/top-tram.jpg

Tram:
http://tt.tiedinburgh.co.uk/downloads/top-tram.jpg

Translohr:
http://www.lohr.fr/pics/translohr-padoueb.jpg

The typical member of the public wouldn't even be aware that one is on steel wheels and the other is on rubber tires.

The cost numbers provided in the USDOT/FTA/CALSTART report on the Paris tests are compelling ( http://www.calstart.org/programs/brt/archives/brt_paris_trip_report.pdf ):

· Metro $ 77 M / km
· Line 14 (Newest Metro) $ 140 M / km
· Metro Automatique $ 56 M / km
· Tramway (LRT) $ 17 M to $ 28 M / km
· Rubber Tire Tramway $ 12 M / km
· Trolley Bus (Nancy) $ 1.6 M / km

I see the same logic progression repeatedly in discussions with light rail supporters. The argument starts that light rail is superior to heavy rail/monorail/maglev (Take your pick!) because it can operate underground, on an elevated viaduct, or on the street. The skeptic then notes that buses can do the same. The light rail supporter then vilifies buses as unattractive to the middle class. The reality is that every US city that has light rail relies on a bus system as a feeder to the light rail network. The typical light rail passenger begins their commute on a bus.

My own opinion is that on-street operation should not even be a part of the discussion of fixed-guideway systems. A system is not really rapid transit unless it is off the street.

I think you should look at real life examples on how successful LRT are compared to BRT or guided buses into really attracting people out of cars and into transit. And note that a number of new BRT lines are being built in preparation for LRT(since cities tend to want proof that an LRT system is justified first prior to releasing funds), not as a substitute unlike the guided bus (whose aim is to replace rail rapid transit all together). And as far as buses as feeder systems, I agree. The role of the bus should solely be a feeder system that channels passengers into a main rail based system.

As for Translohr, that product is uniquely a rubber tired tram unlike the Irisbus Civis, the Bombardier TVR, Phileas guided bus or the O-Bahn guided bus which are truly buses made to look like trains for the sole purpose of fooling the public. Just because the Translohr is a true tram in rubber tires doesn't mean the Civis and other guided buses are also trams in rubber tires. In the surface the Translohr technology is acceptable(which is why it is more successfully in securing orders as oppose to the other guided bus schemes to date) BUT it has one manufacturer, hence extremely proprietory unlike the "off the shelf" LRVs.

In Nancy :

http://www.itrams.net/snostan/images/7bb9.jpg

http://snostan.itrams.net/images/nancy_gare_tramway.jpg

http://snostan.itrams.net/images/pont_foch.jpg

http://houblon.u-strasbg.fr/photos/nancy/contemporain/tram.jpg

http://houblon.u-strasbg.fr/photos/nancy/contemporain/kennedy3.jpg

http://houblon.u-strasbg.fr/photos/nancy/contemporain/reflet.jpg

http://houblon.u-strasbg.fr/photos/nancy/contemporain/tram2.jpg

http://www.transbus.org/reseaux/54000t.jpg

http://nancy-guide.net/nancy_pratique/imgs/plaque-tram-75000f.jpg

http://www.trams-trolleybus.be/trolley_nancy/Nancy_15_2S.jpg


How it works :

Outside its track (diesel-produced electricity) :
http://www.trams-trolleybus.be/trolley_nancy/Nancy_83_2S.jpg

Begining of the track :
http://www.trams-trolleybus.be/trolley_nancy/Nancy_16_2S.jpghttp://www.trams-trolleybus.be/trolley_nancy/Nancy_87_2S.jpg

Switching to electricity mode (using the old troleybus electric system of the city and not light rail-like pantographs) :
http://www.trams-trolleybus.be/trolley_nancy/Nancy_86_2S.jpg


Downtown Nancy (http://nancy-guide.net/photos/photos_de_tram.html) :

http://00ced.myphotos.cc/photos/thematiques/vignette500.php?image=Divers__Tram_-_tramway_de_Nancy_1.1600.jpg&theme_groupe=nancy

http://00ced.myphotos.cc/photos/thematiques/vignette500.php?image=Divers__Tram_-_tramway_de_Nancy_2.1600.jpg&theme_groupe=nancy

http://00ced.myphotos.cc/photos/thematiques/vignette500.php?image=Divers__Tram_-_tramway_de_Nancy_4.1600.jpg&theme_groupe=nancy

http://00ced.myphotos.cc/photos/thematiques/vignette500.php?image=Divers__Tram_-_tramway_de_Nancy_3.1600.jpg&theme_groupe=nancy

http://00ced.myphotos.cc/photos/thematiques/vignette500.php?image=Divers__Tram_-_tramway_de_Nancy_6.1600.jpg&theme_groupe=nancy

http://00ced.myphotos.cc/photos/thematiques/vignette500.php?image=Places__Place_Maginot_-_Place_Maginot_(reflets_et_tram)_1.2032.jpg&theme_groupe=nancy

http://00ced.myphotos.cc/photos/thematiques/vignette500.php?image=Rues_-_Joffre_(boulevard)_(tramway).6Mpx.jpg&theme_groupe=nancy


Length 25 meters
Width 2.50 meters
Height3.22 meters

seats : ~178

Guidance : 4 axles
Max speed : 70 Km/h
Max accel. rate :1.2 m/s
Max brak. rate : 1.2 m/s
Emergency brak. rate : 5.5 m/s
Max sl. : 13%
Directionnal axles : every
Expected life : 30 years
Weight : 25.5 t

Power : 300 Kw
Aux. power : 200 Kw

Width of the track :
normal : 3 m
turn : 3.42 m

At this time, almost 50 000 people a day uses this single line. It works finally correctly but with slow speed at a few critical places. Rollers will be exchanged by a new model that will reduce noise. Camera and monitoring equipement was added this year. Making this vehicle reliable needed too much time and money that's why line 2 and 3 will be optical guided trolebuses ones.

In Lyon there is no Civis bus....but Cristalis which are "normal" trolley buses

the 12 meters version
http://www.lyon-en-lignes.org/Phototheque/albums/userpics/10001/normal_4%20vers%20%20jean%20mace.JPG

The 18 meters version
http://www.lyon-en-lignes.org/Phototheque/albums/userpics/10001/normal_DCP_2397.JPG
http://www.lyon-en-lignes.org/Phototheque/albums/userpics/10001/normal_DCP_2411.JPG
http://www.lyon-en-lignes.org/Phototheque/albums/userpics/10001/normal_Interieur%20ETB%2018.JPG

Great pics and data!
Thanx a lot!
Here in Brazil, a magnetic or optical guided system is proposed for hybrid (diesel-eletric) buses in any corridors, in cities like Sao Paulo or Rio... the government says that real tramways are very expensive... they prefer built metro lines and feeder buses corridors.
I' am afraid, because that kind of buses are really experimentals...

^ Be afraid....be very afraid...:eek:

Some quick points -

One problem with the guided bus systems is they are often proprietary. I know for the Adelaide guided busway they cannot get buses from different manufacturers to run on it. With lightrail, you can buy the cars from a number of suppliers that will work with the system you city as.

Quality of ride is also an issue. I'm yet to get an a bus that is a smooth a ride as a steel wheel tram.

Wally,

even though this pic is hosted from a Nottingham website it is NOT from Nottingham.

More likely its from Leeds, where there are infact two such guided bus systems!
http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/transportissues/photos/guidedbus.jpg

The pic below IS from Nottingham and shows one of the steel wheel trams in the city centre.
http://www.garden.force9.co.uk/Digi/822.jpg

-------------------------------------------------

Tancred,

With the O-Bahn / kerb guided bus system it IS possible to use buses from many bus builders. All that is needed is the fitting of physical guide whelles and the training of the bus drivers.

In Adelaide you have both Mercedees (sp?) Benz and MAN (now NEOMAN) buses.

It should be possible for the Optical guidance system to be fitted to other buses too.

However I agree that the GLT/TVR, system is restricted to Bombardier vehicles.

Simon

^ Thanks for clarifying, spsmiler. I assumed it was Nottingham because of the URL so I'm glad the city made famous by the Robin Hood legends actually doesn't use this dreadful technology and instead uses the more desirable and beautiful rail based LRT system. I feel sorry for Leeds as they have such an ugly guided bus system. I hope they shut that eyesore down and replace it with rail as soon as possible.

And yes, it is possible for ordinary buses to be outfitted with the optically guided system. I hear the system only costs around $20k to install but for some reason, Irisbus Civis jacks up the price to practically double to that of a conventional low floor bus such as the New Flyer Invero. I suppose this one the reason why Irisbus is getting killed in the market place but also note that the optical guidance system has so much limitations it simply isn't practically. Honestly, if you have to use a bus and need to have a service that require close docking, why bother with a silly optically guided system instead of relying on the skill of experienced bus drivers?

Wow they are very beautiful those trams, seems a bit futuristic

Bump for Cloudship!