I never thought I'd say this but is it time we stopped waiting for Quebec to leave and simply pushed them out.
I LOVE Quebec and I know her well but Canada can simply not keep going on this way. Every political and economic decsion in this country has come down to how will Quebec take?
This country's federal governments of all stripes are so worried about Quebec that the rest of the nation is ignored. If you dare say something about the situation then you are labeeled "anti-Quebec" or you are helping "feed the flames of sovernity". Just look at Ontario these days. McGuinty just wants his fair share due to being completly drained by the feds and yet most of the money goes to Quebec. In return all we get is bitching from her and demands of more "or we'll leave.
there would be an open border an free trade so Atlantic Canada wouldn't be a problem. In fact they would get even more money so they would be a hell of a lot better off.
I'm not at all worried about "joining the states"....we are a completly different nation. I actually find that excuse insulting as it basically says that the only reason Canada is different from the US is due to Quebec.

I think it really may be time for Quebec to go, she'll go sooner or later.
When she does become her own nation and her population and economy retreat, she may find out that its a bigger and scarier world than she thought.
Its time to stop this.........its time for Quebec to go.

I tend to agree. I think Quebec is becoming more of a liability that an asset for Canada because all they do is whine and bitch to get more money from the rest of the country and once they get it, they whine and bitch anyway. If Quebec separates but has a good economic relationship with the rest of Canada and the world, then the rest of Canada can focus on its resources to help the rest of the country. Besides, what is the difference between Quebec as a province or independent nation? They want their own national government, their own military and their own "distinct society", so be it.

McGuinty just wants his fair share due to being completly drained by the feds and yet most of the money goes to Quebec.

care to back these ignorant claims with numbers? :)

Here is the info from the department of finance.

Equalization Entitlements – (2005-06)
($ millions)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PEI-----NB----NL----NS----MB-----QC----BC---SK----Total
277---1,348--861--1,344--1,601--4,798--590---82----10,900

http://www.fin.gc.ca/FEDPROV/eqpe.html

As it sits Quebec gets almost half of the equalization payments. Especially since BC and SK are no longer going to be getting money going forward.

^ Holy shit. I don't even consider Quebec a "have not" province.

Kick them out! *evil laugh*

I don't think that we should or even could kick them out but I think that we should entitle to there democratic right to separate and not impede it too much. I don't want another sponsorship scandal, because we all know how the liberals would stop separatism. We could perhaps provide some sort of asymetrical federalist system or heck, martin could get his $%!# nose out of provincial juristiction, the feds shouldn't be medling with healthcare, education or childcare, it is not there constitutional responsibility. I love how the liberals ignore section 91 and 92 of our constitution. <-- sarcasm

Here is the info from the department of finance.

Equalization Entitlements – (2005-06)
($ millions)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PEI-----NB----NL----NS----MB-----QC----BC---SK----Total
277---1,348--861--1,344--1,601--4,798--590---82----10,900

http://www.fin.gc.ca/FEDPROV/eqpe.html

As it sits Quebec gets almost half of the equalization payments. Especially since BC and SK are no longer going to be getting money going forward.


thank you

Originally Posted by ssiguy2
McGuinty just wants his fair share due to being completly drained by the feds and yet most of the money goes to Quebec.

so most of the 23B Ontario is claiming is going to Quebec?

4.7B / 23 B........

What I would say is that Ontario is paying the Federal machine located in Ottawa, all those salaries paid, ... if that machine would mind its own buisness and let the provinces do what they have to do, it would be much smaller and wouldn't need all that money to run!

Why don't Canada kick the maritimes and the territories first since they cost way more in reality than Quebec? :bash:

As an Anglophone Quebecer, who would usually do ANYTHING for a United Canada, and a Quebec within a United Canada, I can't help but feel that Quebec doesn't even deserve to be a part of Canada anymore. To think, the province of Quebec is actually a threat to Canada. We keep making crazy demands, and if Canada doesn't meet those demands, we threaten to seperate. That's just horrible. Plus, don't get me started on the Anti-English laws we have here in Quebec. You know what...salut la visite...ciao Quebec, you don't deserve to be a part of this beautiful country we call Canada. Get out! Maybe its just my emotions talking, but enough is enough already. We have to treat ALL provinces fairly. If Quebec can't accept that, then so be it.

thats because you don't get it.

Surely it sounds as if Quebec is special because its a province between many others.
But in reality there's 2 entities in Canada, English Canada (ROC) and French Canada (Quebec). Sure English Canada has outgrown Quebec, yes there's more English than French people, but does that mean that the French have no right to ask? Whats the purpose of democracy then?

Moreover, most of the demands by Quebec are about the federal govt not minding its own buisness. There's something called the constitution where duties have been seperated between the federal and provincial levels. After the great wars, the federal took over some of the provincials duties without ever giving them back even tho he's not permitted to do so in the constitution.

edited for content by moderation.

hahaha whatever man. do what you please, but hurry up, the Palazzo closes in 3 hours. :wave:

Man I don't even know what the Palazzo is!

http://www.nitelifeinfo.com/fl/palazzo/feb2405/front.jpg

minchia! club where all the 17yrs old Italians go :)

I've always been all for a united Canada. I'm rethinking that though. Personally, I say we treat Quebec the same as any other province and let them decide if they want to stay or go. Sure, there's a pretty big chance they'll go but you know what...fine, go then. It's not about the money, that's just the way confederation works (besides, my own province is a drain on the national coffers so I'd be a hypocrite if I bitched about Quebec getting any equalization cash) I'm just really sick of hearing about the threats from Quebec as is the rest of Canada. Yeah, I'd definitely prefer it if they stayed but frankly, if they want to ditch they can go right ahead. In the long run they'd be ruined (one reason I don't want to see them go) and we'd be better off. But like I said, I'd prefer if they stayed.

minchia! club where all the 17yrs old Italians go

Ok yeah, we got a few of those here in Montreal too.

I've always been all for a united Canada. I'm rethinking that though. Personally, I say we treat Quebec the same as any other province and let them decide if they want to stay or go. Sure, there's a pretty big chance they'll go but you know what...fine, go then. It's not about the money, that's just the way confederation works (besides, my own province is a drain on the national coffers so I'd be a hypocrite if I bitched about Quebec getting any equalization cash) I'm just really sick of hearing about the threats from Quebec as is the rest of Canada. Yeah, I'd definitely prefer it if they stayed but frankly, if they want to ditch they can go right ahead. In the long run they'd be ruined (one reason I don't want to see them go) and we'd be better off. But like I said, I'd prefer if they stayed.

I agree. I'm just tired of the constant threat that is hurting out country. Stop pleasing Quebecers by giving the province special treatment. If they want to stay, stay. But if they want to leave, go ahead, we're tired of the constant bitching. I just hope that somehow, communities that want to stay as a part of Canada get the chance to stay. If regions of Quebec want to break off from Quebec and stay a part of Canada, they should be given that right.

Lastly, I hope that if Quebec does vote "YES", that it is more complete independance. If you want to leave, then leave COMPLETELY.

I've always been all for a united Canada. I'm rethinking that though. Personally, I say we treat Quebec the same as any other province and let them decide if they want to stay or go. Sure, there's a pretty big chance they'll go but you know what...fine, go then. It's not about the money, that's just the way confederation works (besides, my own province is a drain on the national coffers so I'd be a hypocrite if I bitched about Quebec getting any equalization cash) I'm just really sick of hearing about the threats from Quebec as is the rest of Canada. Yeah, I'd definitely prefer it if they stayed but frankly, if they want to ditch they can go right ahead. In the long run they'd be ruined (one reason I don't want to see them go) and we'd be better off. But like I said, I'd prefer if they stayed.

why would they be ruined? sure its gonna cost alot of money creating a new country, there will be some companies moving out for sure at the beginning...

but then, Quebec generaly speaking is a rich state, it has plenty of resources, is a service oriented economy and is a net exporter.

We won't have uncertainty on either side of the border ever. People will be focused on their buisnesses and their lives, not the political fiasco that is Canada.

I agree. I'm just tired of the constant threat that is hurting out country. Stop pleasing Quebecers by giving the province special treatment. If they want to stay, stay. But if they want to leave, go ahead, we're tired of the constant bitching. I just hope that somehow, communities that want to stay as a part of Canada get the chance to stay. If regions of Quebec want to break off from Quebec and stay a part of Canada, they should be given that right.

Lastly, I hope that if Quebec does vote "YES", that it is more complete independance. If you want to leave, then leave COMPLETELY.

wishful thinking.

TRUE^^^^^^
Many major corps would leave not the least AirCanada and RoyalBank. All federal govt offices. Quebec is well known in Canada for its progressive social laws and sexual attitudes. That said Quebec is also know as being amongst the most racist province in the country. Some Quebecers don't even consider you truly Quebecer unless you a franco-phone. The Parti-Quebecois is openly racist and blames the inability to separate the fault of the anglo/allophones.
A lot of them will up and move. It didn't take near that for all that Toronto bound 401 traffic in the 70s. Many will be forced to move.
Quebec gets a lot of money from the feds equalisation and federal largesse and head offices. IE Hull.
Quebec's economy would definatly shrink. Most of the people who would leave are the higher income ones {eg West Islanders} and civil servants. They are well educated and skilled. Many Quebecers would leave if nothing else due to the economic problems and many just because they want to stay in Canada. Taking a waklk with one quarter of the national debt and then having to service it with a shrinking economy and population base will be VERY difficult.
Will she come around, of course but a lot poorer than she was.
Quebecerts seem to think that Canadians will discuss things logically and the generous....wrong. Canadians will not be in a forgiving mood. No bedromm previledges.
It will be all or nothin. Free trade and open borders of course, but no Cdn passport, dollar, equalisation, and all their portion of the debt[which the separatists have already agreed to}.
I love Quebec but for the sake of the nation I'm starting, but not yet sure, if its time to just say goodbye and call it a day before Alb/BC strike out on their own and NFLD as well with its new oil. For the sake of the nation it maybe time to break her up.
Afterall, if the Ontario economy went right into the tank and became a haveNOT province, how many here think Quebec would gleefully start sending equalisation the otherway.
I love duality of this country and our ties, of course, would still be strong but maybe its time we called it a day.

I knew a guy in Quebec and he was a separitist. He loved Canada and all Quebecers do. Poll after poll have shown that. The most recent stated that 94% of all Quebecers thought Canada was the best country in the world.
Maybe he was right, we would make better friends than lovers.

lol. The rest of the country should hold a referendum on whether we should release ourselves from the griphold of Quebec... :)

Quebec out now! :D

why would they be ruined? sure its gonna cost alot of money creating a new country, there will be some companies moving out for sure at the beginning...

but then, Quebec generaly speaking is a rich state, it has plenty of resources, is a service oriented economy and is a net exporter.

We won't have uncertainty on either side of the border ever. People will be focused on their buisnesses and their lives, not the political fiasco that is Canada.
Well, in the long run you can kiss all the Canadian corporate offices goodbye. That's more than a few jobs lost right there. I mean you can try and tell yourself that CIBC is going to rent space in Montreal office towers but of course they aren't going to.

As well, whatever Montreal is providing as a Canadian port will be lost. Think of it this way if that doesn't quite make sense: If Canada imports 30 million tonnes of some product through the port of Montreal right now, why would any company bother paying tariffs to ship it to Quebec and then pay tariffs again when it gets redistributed throughout the rest of Canada? They won't bother, they'll just ship it a little further west to Toronto or Hamilton. Montreal would lose ALOT of business that way as it would only be providing for the Quebec market in the event of sovereignty. Same thing for rail and air. Sure, you could negotiate some sort of Free Trade agreement but it won't really matter because the companies themselves are worried about the bottom line. If the product is destined to be sold in Canada, they aren't going to pay extra shipping costs by landing the product in Quebec and then on to Canada. The inter-modal costs alone make this senseless.

Then of course there's the very obvious fact that in the event of seperation, hundreds of thousands of Anglos aren't going to bother sticking around. And when they leave, they'll be taking their cash with them. As well as their business. Depopulation basically. Places like Gatineau would be ghost towns not to mention the west end of Montreal.

On a related topic though, it's important to note that French is far better protected within Canada than it would be outside of it. Why you ask? Because English is the language of global trade and popular culture. The free market will force transactions that can now be done in French via the Canadian government to be made in English. It's no secret that the developing world wants to learn English. It's the passport to the good life. Only teach the kids French? Okay, then they won't know English and they'll be isolated globally. The Americans are going to be Quebec's biggest trading partner and they aren't going to learn French. Sure, they'll learn a little for the trade but they won't be exporting the goods popular society wants in French. They'll be sending you MTV in English.

Hey, I'm all for the preservation of French. I live in the largest Francophone community outside of Quebec in Canada. I speak French and am happy to know it. But don't kid yourself, its protection is artificially buoyed by the Canadian government.

As well, you will see your standard of living decrease noticeably. 32 million people can buy alot more than 7 million can. And they can do it alot easier too. Pooling our cash makes the big purchases alot easier to afford. If Quebecers find it tough to find the cash for new hospitals now, imagine what it will be like when the resources shrink to a fraction of what they are now.

As far as the resources of Quebec go...well, look, if Quebec could make billions and billions of dollars on their natural resources alone, it would have done so already. That's not going to change just because it's a sovereign nation. Don't forget too that when the Anglos start streaming for the border, they won't be taking their homes and businesses with them. That means it will become a buyers market. That's not good for the long term for a variety of reasons. Just think ; if half of western Montreal left, who's going to buy all the homes they vacated ? Who's going to replace their shopping dollars or taxes ? Nobody. So if you think the streets of Montreal are in bad shape now, just wait until you have that many less people around to pay for them.

So all in all, what have we got ? A shrunken market, a massive loss of corporate money, and less incentive for new investors to set up shop in Quebec. Only those in absolute denial could posit or skew the logic with a maze of details that Quebec's economy won't hit the ground. And all this doesn't even include the higher cost of the government bureaucracy that will have to replace the void left by Canada's government pull-out. And the other short term costs associated with the set up of the new government aren't factored in either.

But like I said before...if Quebec wants to leave, go ahead. I don't want to see that happen but I won't stand in their way. Just make sure that you are truly aware of what will happen in the event of secession. It won't be pretty. It's obvious.

^Amen.

care to back these ignorant claims with numbers? :)

Friend, you're Canadian, he doesn't have to back anything up.
You know damn well.


I agree (somewhat) with the person who started this thread...it's becomming EXTREMLY annoying, and Quebec knows it really is worthless without Canada feeding it.

It's time to smarten up and realize Quebec is a VERY unique province of CANADA.

:cheers:

LooselogInthePeg: I thought you said we couldn't agree =P

While I think Quebec should make the decision, obviously, I would like to see the rest of the country vote if they want Quebec to screw off or not. I'd be sad to lose Montreal, and to a lesser extent Quebec city and other parts along the St.L, but the rest of the wannabe-country can shove it.

Wow, such hostility!!! :eek:

It is funny, because some of these exact reasons are being used in Spain right now in relation to its separtist regions.

In the end, what more does Quebec want? It tries as hard as possible to make life hard for Anglo speakers, and does benefit from being part of Canada economically. It protects its own language and has much control over its finances.

I have even heard some separatists proposals in which Quebec would separate, but keep Canadian currency. WTF?! They want this becuase they want to stave off economic meltdown. How doees an island of French speakers containing only 5 million people going to compete in the sea that is the Americas containing 300 million English speakers, 330 million Spanish speakers, and 180 million Portuguese speakers? Very little export opportunity, especially considering that Canadians would likely boycott any Quebec products to retaliate for separation.

Separatism, either in Europe or the Americas no longer makes sense. These democratic countries protect their cultural diversity. At this point, it seems that Quebec politicians are just using separatism as a political toy to milk some extra $$$ from the rest of Canada.

It does seem that way, but now people are actually BRAINWASHED, and want to seperate for real. lol.
Lord knows what they'd be getting themselves into.

What we need is someone in the government with a good pair of testicles that will stand up in parliament and slap Quebec in the face saying:
"BITCH, you're getting NO MORE money from Ontario, your signs are to be in FRENCH AND ENGLISH like the rest of Canada, and next person who speaks of seperatism will be charged with treason and executed in the nearest city market place at 5pm...among other things of course."

:D
Maybe not those exact words, but you get the picture.


Oh and, "The Bloc is now void and null considering they are an illegal party to Canada... good'ay mates! That was for you Australia."

LooselogInthePeg: I thought you said we couldn't agree =P

lmao! But we both agreed that we couldn't agree at the time....oh boy...my brain is startin' to hurt now. This is like the time travel paradox....

Wow, such hostility!!! :eek:

Ahhh...don't think of it as hostility. It's just a really charged up issue in this country. Everybody always gets all hot headed about it no matter which side you're on. It really has a lot to do with our government more than anything. I mean, they're the ones who are paying off the seperatists with the country's tax dollars. In the meantime, the Quebec seperatists keep telling people in Quebec about how hard up they are compared to the rest of the country. Sooner or later, you're probably going to believe some of it whether it's true or not so it's tough to blame all the Quebecers for having some of those beliefs. We should actually be more pissed off with the tall foreheads in Ottawa and the loud mouths in Quebec than anything...but we will do the typical Canadian thing...which is nothing anyway.

why would they be ruined? sure its gonna cost alot of money creating a new country, there will be some companies moving out for sure at the beginning...

but then, Quebec generaly speaking is a rich state, it has plenty of resources, is a service oriented economy and is a net exporter.

We won't have uncertainty on either side of the border ever. People will be focused on their buisnesses and their lives, not the political fiasco that is Canada.

You're being pretty ridiculous when you describe Canada as a "political fiasco" when Quebeckers are the only ones in Canada causing the fiasco. Quebec would become the Slovakia of N.A. if it were to separate.

What separatist regions in Europe and the Americas do not realize that if they think that separatism will bring some benefits, that their politicians fail to tell them all the negatives. If Quebec were to separate, let's say I was the average British Columbian. I have the option of buying a product from a company in Toronto, or one in Montreal. Remembering the bitterness of the separation, I would say, "Screw Quebec, I am going to buy the Ontarian product." I would imagine that most products made in Quebec are desitned for the rest of Canada, and by doing so, gains easy entry into the English speaking world English is the first language of international business, followed by Spanish; French is not an important language of business, at least any longer. By loosing the English speaking market in Canada, Quebec shoots itself in the foot.

If Quebec separates, the rest of Canada will really no longer give a shit about Quebec. The native communities in the north have already made clear that they will not join an independent Quebec, and if Quebec claims the right of secession, why not these tribes. So, we would see a destruction in the territorial integrity of Quebec. The United States will certainly not give a shit about Quebec. So, in essence, Quebec would be at the mercy of France at least in the short run to consume its products.

I think that these would be short term. After about 50 years of separation, I am sure that things will return to normal. However, separatists politicians need to do their jobs, be they in Europe or the Americas, and tell their people the truth. Independence will lead to great economic instability.

I think it would be okay for me if Quebec decided to separate from Canada. However, they should give every district a freedom to choose whether joining Libre Quebec or Canada. It means that they should give Montrealers a choice to join Canada or Libre Quebec. It's fair and it's democracy.

woaaah i'm half hammered now.

I just wanted to say that the reason why Montreal has such a big port is that during the winter boats cannot go on till Toronto. The maritime way is blocked by ice ;)

now bed.

I say we kick them out.........It will definitely benefit Ontario and Toronto even more.
My cousin who graduated from Concordia worked in Montreal fulltime. He was making six figure digits. The first referendum made him pack his bags and take his wife and two kids to Toronto. He found an equally better job and has been here for 10years+.
Now my other cousin who is siblings with the other, owns and operates his own real estate company. He is prepared to pack his bags along with his wife and three kids if the vote is YES. Don't forget that their parents(my godparents) live in Montreal and are prepared to move to Toronto as well to be close with their kids and grand-children. They've ecchoed those sentiments everytime I've visited them.
Oh and two other cousins of mine have left Montreal because of economic uncertainty. They both moved to Vancouver. One is a lawyer while the other owns and operates a famous restaurant on Robson called Cincin.
The notion that Quebec will not suffer is a BIG LAUGH. You think Quebec needed handouts now!?!?!?! Just wait.

woaaah i'm half hammered now.

I just wanted to say that the reason why Montreal has such a big port is that during the winter boats cannot go on till Toronto. The maritime way is blocked by ice ;)

now bed.

Luckily we still have Halifax. ;)

Of course, unless the Quebecers are meanspirited, and will try everyway to block shipment to the rest of Canada...or tax the shipments to death.lol

English is the first language of international business, followed by Spanish; French is not an important language of business, at least any longer. By loosing the English speaking market in Canada, Quebec shoots itself in the foot.


I don't think that's quite true, although Africa isn't exactly the most economic of trading partners. There are a lot of Francophone countries, but none of them are in the Americas (I think).

Quebec would join NAFTA........no question. There would be an open border. Remember there are many ex-Quebecers in the rest of Canada. Everyone in Quebec knows someone who has left.........especially in Montreal.
Much like the EU but no CDN dollar and not transfer payments.
This thread doesn't make me glee but I think it is becoming increasingly true thant Canadians have had enough.
There would be the problem of Ontario........namely its population. It would have the pop of all of rest of the country, with change. Something about that would have to change. I could see Toronto becoming its own province or territory. The East/North capitol would probably be Kingston and the southwest definatly London.

Yes, the west islanders and Hull would be an issue and the natives in the north.
Maybe its just time to call their bluff.

I find it interesting to note that there are always polls to see the sovernty support in Quebec but never polls to see how Canadians feel about them leaving.

I find it interesting to note that there are always polls to see the sovernty support in Quebec but never polls to see how Canadians feel about them leaving.

Good point. You know, As an Anglophone Quebecer, I only have two problems with Quebec seperating:

1) Montreal! Montreal used to be the capital of financial Canada. Montreal IS a Canadian city at heart, and it does not deserve to be a part of an independant Quebec. Montreal is a bilingual city AND a federalist, pro-United Canada city. It would be extremely sad to see Montreal go. Montreal must stay in Canada.

2) Canada's geographical shape would be distorted. NL, NS, PEI and NB would be cut off from the rest of the country. What will happent to them? Will they start seperatist movements of their own because they are cut off? Join the USA maybe?

If these problems are solved...then you know what? Go ahead Quebec. So whining and complaining, and just make our lives easier and leave already. It is really sad that it has come to this. I love Canada and Quebec, but many Quebecers are pissing me off nowadays. They are brainwashed. Canada keeps giving and giving, to the point where people's fundamental human rights are allowed to be taken away from them in Quebec (Bill 101 Language Laws). It's time to take a stand. Accept Canada's offer, or leave!

The St. Lawrence Seaway is an international waterway. If boats can't get to Chicago because Montrealers won't allow the ice jams to be cleared, how do you think the American's will take that? Hopefully Quebec spends it's 'Canada severance package' on a lot of sling-shots and band-aids because they'll be needing both if they piss off the US.

well, what would stop the Anglophone commuities in Quebec from separating from this new country. Don't they have as much right to decide which country to be a part of? The northern natives have already made clear their intent to separate from Quebec should it leave Canada. And I do not blame them

well, what would stop the Anglophone commuities in Quebec from separating from this new country. Don't they have as much right to decide which country to be a part of? The northern natives have already made clear their intent to separate from Quebec should it leave Canada. And I do not blame them

Well, what if Quebec decides to be not as democratic as Canada & deny their rights? ;)

well, what would stop the Anglophone commuities in Quebec from separating from this new country. Don't they have as much right to decide which country to be a part of? The northern natives have already made clear their intent to separate from Quebec should it leave Canada. And I do not blame them

Many seperatists have already stated that if Quebec were to seperate, it MUST seperate as a whole, and they will not give these communities the right to seperate from an Independant Quebec. Other Quebec seperatists are a lot more democratic, and probably would be in favour of allowing communities to stay in Canada.

It would be a very messy situation if Quebec were to ever seperate from Canada. It will almost undoubtedly create civil unrest. Montreal and Gatineau would also become ghost towns.

Great example: Canada is an orphanage . All the prov. are children asking for more. Quebec is that fat , kid that try's to climb into the pot and eat everything and when the others get upset he stands up in a snooty French tounge and says , " You hate me because Im so beautiful ". Oblivious to its own greed.

I don't think it would be a trouble for west islanders and Hull because geographically they are right beside Ontario .
The real killer will be the natives in the north, and that will be interestin.

I don't think it would be a trouble for west islanders and Hull because geographically they are right beside Ontario .
The real killer will be the natives in the north, and that will be interestin.

Indeed!

My opinion is, if Quebec were to seperate, the entire Island of Montreal, as well as areas west of Montreal and the whole Gatineau region, should become a part of Ontario, considering we both regions border Ontario, and that both regions are FEDERALIST.

What would Montreal name their hockey team if they seperated? That is the real question. :eek:

No kidding!!!!

I just say peg the CDN dollar at 75cents US and then if they want to leave then go, but it will be on OUR terms. Pegging the dollar would stop any selloff during the transition.
I tell ya if I were in Ontario right now pleading for money from Ottawa which it says it doesn't have because its going to Quebec I would be pretty pissed.

what would happen with Ottawa. It is right across the river from Quebec, right? That would be pretty odd, to have the capital of acountry be right across the river from the seceeding province.

I say, enough with separatism. Quebec has what it wants. European separatists have what they want. Why would you risk instability just to gain a little bit more? Nationalism gave rise to WWI and WWII while I highly doubt that Quebec separation will trigger WWIII, the very fact that nationalism started these wars illustrates some of the negatives that excessive nationalism can have.

I say, enough with separatism. Quebec has what it wants. European separatists have what they want. Why would you risk instability just to gain a little bit more? Nationalism gave rise to WWI and WWII while I highly doubt that Quebec separation will trigger WWIII, the very fact that nationalism started these wars illustrates some of the negatives that excessive nationalism can have.
Expansionism gave rise to WWII, and paranoia/jumping to conclusions and mobilizing military for reasons that weren't real gave rise to WWI. It had everything to do with protecting national territory and all that goes with it, but it wasn't started by that... Hitler was expansionist and on a mission of genocide. That's a little different than nationalism. Although I'm sure the extremists in Quebec would love to round up english-speaking Canada into concentration camps, I hardly think they have the charisma to start that magnitude of a following.
The separatism floating around right now is about getting shafted by the country we're supposed to look upto as our loving mother. Only there is no more love. The little children have grown up and it is time to move the fuk out!

no...your stupid, kicking them out....would just be stupid

I remember from the last referendum the US saying that Quebec would not automatically be part of NAFTA. This was said after Perrizeau (spelling) mentioned in the media that Quebec would not have to renogiate its way into NAFTA. This is true for all the international agreements that Canada has negogiated over the years, Quebec will have to make its own agreements. Quebec never signed Kyoto as an example. Quebec would not be part of NATO, the UN, OAS etc etc. So its foolish for Quebec to think that just because they were part of Canada, a wealthy well respect nation, they they will be one over night and still be a member of the club.

Either way, they won't last. All of their socialist programs run off money they get from Canada, and if they seperate, we won't give them that money... Unless the government is liberal. But it probably won't be when they seperate. I guess. They won't last. If they seperate rom us, we probably won't help them. America sure as hell won't help them. They want nothing to do with France, and after that, the only french speaking countries are in Africa. They'll be independant for about a week before they come to their sense and beg to come back.

Then we won't let them! Unless the goernment is liberal. And after the seperation, it probably will be...

What would Montreal name their hockey team if they seperated? That is the real question. :eek:

lol

I hate talk of Quebec seperation. It's a chronic disease that this country will never heal from. The limb hurts, it will always hurt at least a little. We could keep it, or saw it off.

The problem is, Quebec is Canada. If Quebec seperated, the rest of us might as well find a new name, because Canada will no longer exist.

For better or worse, the Anglo/Franco dichotomy makes Canada unique. Our politics are quite complex. We retain a introverted tension that has dictated our history and our future. We could use it to our complete advantage.

From reading this thread, it's occured to me that the only people who can save this country are the youth of Quebec. There are many things that need changing that likely require a new generation.

BTW, I plan to send my daughter to French Immersion when she starts school. :)

Does Quebec really have the balls to separate when they realise they would be starved of their precious funding? The feds should just put the foot down with them and see what happens.

I think it is time for us to go now. I have never been for separation before, I have always been in the status quo categorie so to speek. But when I look at it, we in Montreal are still loosing companies to the rest of Canada (mainly Toronto) because of this threat of separation. I say let's get it over with, so we can finally turn the page on this threat.

The main argument of federalists in Quebec is actually that our economy would go to shit if we separate, but again, one could make the argument that our economy has been suffering for 40 years now from staying in Canada. Now dont get me wrong, I am aware that in the short term it will be bad for Quebec's economy, but I think that in the long term we will be able to become more competitive than we are now.

Also, I dont want anyone to think a hate Canada, I love Canada and think it is one of the best countries in the world.

^ you forgot an option. Crush the seperatists. They only exist because we/you tolerate them. They are the force behind everything thats wrong with Quebec.

I mena crush them politically, of course. Not by force. :)

right... but easier said than done. We've seen the political efforts of the Liberal party of Canada to crush separatism using a propaganda campaign paid for by tax payer money called "sponsorship scandal". It's kindof insulting to be fed this kind of shit, and does nothing to make you like the country.

right... but easier said than done. We've seen the political efforts of the Liberal party of Canada to crush separatism using a propaganda campaign paid for by tax payer money called "sponsorship scandal". It's kindof insulting to be fed this kind of shit, and does nothing to make you like the country.

certainly... what a mess

but don't let a bunch of assholes ruin a good thing ;)

^ I'll keep that in mind. :)

Vive le Québec Libre ! :nocrook:

Kick Ontario, Maritimes Provinces, Alberta, British Columbia, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Yukon, North-west Territories and Nunavut out of Canada !

Well said there GM!

I dont see the purpose of this thread, (complaints), anyways, I ain't no politician so you people go one ahead and blab about useless crap.

Well, in the long run you can kiss all the Canadian corporate offices goodbye. That's more than a few jobs lost right there. I mean you can try and tell yourself that CIBC is going to rent space in Montreal office towers but of course they aren't going to.

As well, whatever Montreal is providing as a Canadian port will be lost. Think of it this way if that doesn't quite make sense: If Canada imports 30 million tonnes of some product through the port of Montreal right now, why would any company bother paying tariffs to ship it to Quebec and then pay tariffs again when it gets redistributed throughout the rest of Canada? They won't bother, they'll just ship it a little further west to Toronto or Hamilton. Montreal would lose ALOT of business that way as it would only be providing for the Quebec market in the event of sovereignty. Same thing for rail and air. Sure, you could negotiate some sort of Free Trade agreement but it won't really matter because the companies themselves are worried about the bottom line. If the product is destined to be sold in Canada, they aren't going to pay extra shipping costs by landing the product in Quebec and then on to Canada. The inter-modal costs alone make this senseless.

Then of course there's the very obvious fact that in the event of seperation, hundreds of thousands of Anglos aren't going to bother sticking around. And when they leave, they'll be taking their cash with them. As well as their business. Depopulation basically. Places like Gatineau would be ghost towns not to mention the west end of Montreal.

On a related topic though, it's important to note that French is far better protected within Canada than it would be outside of it. Why you ask? Because English is the language of global trade and popular culture. The free market will force transactions that can now be done in French via the Canadian government to be made in English. It's no secret that the developing world wants to learn English. It's the passport to the good life. Only teach the kids French? Okay, then they won't know English and they'll be isolated globally. The Americans are going to be Quebec's biggest trading partner and they aren't going to learn French. Sure, they'll learn a little for the trade but they won't be exporting the goods popular society wants in French. They'll be sending you MTV in English.

Hey, I'm all for the preservation of French. I live in the largest Francophone community outside of Quebec in Canada. I speak French and am happy to know it. But don't kid yourself, its protection is artificially buoyed by the Canadian government.

As well, you will see your standard of living decrease noticeably. 32 million people can buy alot more than 7 million can. And they can do it alot easier too. Pooling our cash makes the big purchases alot easier to afford. If Quebecers find it tough to find the cash for new hospitals now, imagine what it will be like when the resources shrink to a fraction of what they are now.

As far as the resources of Quebec go...well, look, if Quebec could make billions and billions of dollars on their natural resources alone, it would have done so already. That's not going to change just because it's a sovereign nation. Don't forget too that when the Anglos start streaming for the border, they won't be taking their homes and businesses with them. That means it will become a buyers market. That's not good for the long term for a variety of reasons. Just think ; if half of western Montreal left, who's going to buy all the homes they vacated ? Who's going to replace their shopping dollars or taxes ? Nobody. So if you think the streets of Montreal are in bad shape now, just wait until you have that many less people around to pay for them.

So all in all, what have we got ? A shrunken market, a massive loss of corporate money, and less incentive for new investors to set up shop in Quebec. Only those in absolute denial could posit or skew the logic with a maze of details that Quebec's economy won't hit the ground. And all this doesn't even include the higher cost of the government bureaucracy that will have to replace the void left by Canada's government pull-out. And the other short term costs associated with the set up of the new government aren't factored in either.

But like I said before...if Quebec wants to leave, go ahead. I don't want to see that happen but I won't stand in their way. Just make sure that you are truly aware of what will happen in the event of secession. It won't be pretty. It's obvious.

That was very well said. What I can't believe is that government allows a vote on seperation without giving people the details. Isn't this stuff important before making a choice on sovereignty? I do!

I would also add to the mix the fact that all airports are federal (including the land). What would become of Dorval or any other airport.

I don't know. I think the people of Quebec (and Canada) deserve to know all the facts before going to ballot box. Based on 1995's events, they were really left 'dans la lune'.

Vive le Québec Libre ! :nocrook:

Kick Ontario, Maritimes Provinces, Alberta, British Columbia, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Yukon, North-west Territories and Nunavut out of Canada !

:ohno:

Le Quebec libre n'est pas une entite viable. Sa economie, mourira sans l'aide des partes du Canada anglophone. Le Quebec est un ile francophone dans un ocean de 300.000.000 anglophones, 330.000.000 hispanophones, et 180.000.000 lusophones. Le Quebec, avec l'independence ou sans l'independence, doit integrer dans une nouvelle monde, une parte de monde ou le francais n'est pas une langue importante.

Ca ne vas pas changer avec l'independence. Le Quebec ne ganera rien, y peut perdir tout.

I don't know why French Speakers within other countries seem to do good and bleed them dry. Now I have great respect the French Language and in general French People, (except those who voted for Jean Marie Le-Pen, and those who think that arrogant egotist Charles de Gaulle saved the free world single handedly), but this is a great curiosity.

- In Belguim each Flemish contributions over a $1500 per capita towards subsidising lazy Wallonians.
- In Canada, Quebec has special rights and virtually rules the country, how many years has it been since Canada had an Anglophone Prime Minister. Quebec is also massively subsidised.
- In the European Union, France's lazy farmers are subsidised to be inefficient at the expense of starving the developing world, and like how the Romans called desolation peace, they call this humanity.
- In France, the richest part is Alsace, and subsidises the rest of the country despite having no language rights, as no other regional language in France has.

I don't say this out of jealousy or bitterness, but out of admiration and astonishment. How do Francophones manage to get such a great deal out of everyone else? Show me.

^ The Louisianans didn't get such a good deal, :)Maybe's Canada's a bit too nice, and it's now being taken advantage of.

@ LostBoy :yes:

France has 6 regional languages in addition to French: Alsatian, Breton, Basque, Catalan, Occitan, and Corsican. All are considered dialects of French. And yet, we had French presidents who supported "freedom" for Quebec in order to protect their Francophone identity. When the French state stops their rampage against minority languages and accords them the same respect that they are given in countries like Spain, then I will care more about what France has to say about its former colony. But until then, yet another reason to dislike the latent Gaulism that is incipient, on both sides of the Atlantic.

We Quebecers don't want to separate from the rest of Canada. We have prouved that with two referenda (1980-1995).

Quebec has a lot to lose leaving Canada, and Canada will no longer be Canada without Quebec.

The rest of Canada cannot kick out Quebec because the province of Quebec also belongs to all canadians.

Quebec can't be recognised as an independent country until the rest of Canada recognises it as an independent country. France's opinion doesn't matter here.

Quebec's separation would be terrible for Quebec, but also for Canada. What would happen with the maritim provinces?

Will Montrealer's like me wan't to separate from Quebec? No, never: Quebec is our province and Canada our country.

We Quebecers don't want to separate from the rest of Canada. We have prouved that with two referenda (1980-1995).

Quebec has a lot to lose leaving Canada, and Canada will no longer be Canada without Quebec.

The rest of Canada cannot kick out Quebec because the province of Quebec also belongs to all canadians.

Quebec can't be recognised as an independent country until the rest of Canada recognises it as an independent country. France's opinion doesn't matter here.

Quebec's separation would be terrible for Quebec, but also for Canada. What would happen with the maritim provinces?

Will Montrealer's like me wan't to separate from Quebec? No, never: Quebec is our province and Canada our country.

Whatever happens to Quebec in the future will always be an internal matter within Canada. France has about as much right to an opinion on this matter as the U.K does with English Canada and that is virtually NIL.

i might be repeating myself.

but all is needed is that the federal govt respects its own constitution and gets out of provincial jurisdictions...

is that so complicated?

if that happens, it will shut the separatists, and not only in Quebec.

I'm a federalist but I have to admit that the federal machine has been fattening itself on the provinces expense and rights.

When I see on these forums the contempt of the anglophones for the Francophones and the French heritage and present of Canada, I understand why there is a strong movement for separatism in Québec. Why would the Québecois want to stay in a country where they are considered as subcitizens, where they are despised ?
I see, all over these boards, Anglophones Quebecers whining about the fact they have to speak Français in Québec whereas I have never see only one Québecois (francophone) complaining about the fact they have to speak English in Canada outside Québec), although that the French is officially one of the language of Canada.
Québec is a French-speaking country. Face it. If you want to live in a country, I think it's normal that you have to learn its language. Québec is a French-speaking country which has been forced to integrate a an anglophone entity (aka Canada).

Le Quebec libre n'est pas une entite viable. Sa economie, mourira sans l'aide des partes du Canada anglophone. Le Quebec est un ile francophone dans un ocean de 300.000.000 anglophones, 330.000.000 hispanophones, et 180.000.000 lusophones. Le Quebec, avec l'independence ou sans l'independence, doit integrer dans une nouvelle monde, une parte de monde ou le francais n'est pas une langue importante.

Ca ne vas pas changer avec l'independence. Le Quebec ne ganera rien, y peut perdir tout.

Always the same contempt for the Québecois. You speak of Québecois as if they were lazy monkeys unable to do anything without the anglophone supermen. I really understand the seperatism movement. If I was a Québecois, I would not want to stay in a country with millions of people who despised me, just for speaking French.

@Lostboy : keep your racist, biaised, and ignorant remarks for yourself.

I wonder what the mods are doing about this... nothing as usual.

I don't WANT Quebec to leave but the reality is the present situation is not working. Its working very well for Quebec but the rest of the country {mostly Ontario} pays for it. What do we get in return????????.................bitching.
Everything in this country has come down to how will Quebec take it. We are in a perrenial position of having to run the entire natioanl agenda on the needs of one province and you dare not question it or you are "anti-Quebec".
We can't push Quebec out, thats true, and I don't think most want to. That said, I think its coming to the point that if Quebec wants to go, then go so we can get on with Canada. This blackmail cannot continue indefinatly.
Sooner or later, if Quebec doesn't go but the present political situation continuess, then other provinces will.

Racist, how is it racist? I see you do not refute any of my points.

I love the decent French, people like Exarchus or Manuel, but have nothing but contempt for those who try to spark off seperatism in a foreign country, when it has nothing to do with them apart from they speak a related language - Quebecois is still distinct from French as you well know - especially as Quebec enjoys far more rights than any linguistic minority population in France, or even the majority Dutch population in Belguim until the Second World War. Pointing this out is not racist to the French, who I admire, its merely pointing out the fact that you have no moral legitimacy, and the reason you try and point score with racist, is that you do not like this. If you had more traditional French Values you wouldn't even be interfering for the sake of your ethnic brothers in Quebec.

When I see on these forums the contempt of the anglophones for the Francophones and the French heritage and present of Canada, I understand why there is a strong movement for separatism in Québec. Why would the Québecois want to stay in a country where they are considered as subcitizens, where they are despised ?

f.

I'm from Quebec and I can garanty you that Quebecois are not considered subcitizens anywhere in Canada.

Québec is a French-speaking country. Face it. If you want to live in a country, I think it's normal that you have to learn its language. Québec is a French-speaking country which has been forced to integrate a an anglophone entity (aka Canada).

.


You are wrong: Quebec is not a french-speaking country, it's a bilingual province.

Racist, how is it racist? I see you do not refute any of my points.

I love the decent French, people like Exarchus or Manuel, but have nothing but contempt for those who try to spark off seperatism in a foreign country, when it has nothing to do with them apart from they speak a related language - Quebecois is still distinct from French as you well know - especially as Quebec enjoys far more rights than any linguistic minority population in France, or even the majority Dutch population in Belguim until the Second World War. Pointing this out is not racist to the French, who I admire, its merely pointing out the fact that you have no moral legitimacy, and the reason you try and point score with racist, is that you do not like this. If you had more traditional French Values you wouldn't even be interfering for the sake of your ethnic brothers in Quebec.

Francophones countries have a sort of friendship or solidarity than anglophones countries don't have. It's even more the case between Québec and France because Québecois are direct descendant from French settlers. Maybe you are jealous or something...

I tell you that you were racist because you keep -after saying that you have great respect for the French and blahblahblah, what hypocrisy !- on associating french or Francophones with "lazy". Read again what you have written.

Concerning your points :
- Wallonie was for a long time the most industrial -and thus the most rich- region of Belgium. With the industrial crisis, the situation has been infortunately inversed.
- I do not think that Québec is more subdivised than others provinces. Moreover, I want just to recall you that Québec has been FORCED to integrate this canadian entity.
- Alsace is indeed one of the richest region of France. But there are only some thousands of Alsatian speakers anymore, and this is not them who make the richness of this region. BTW, it's Île de France the richest region of France.
- French agriculture receive more subsides because this is the most powerful agriculture of Europe and helping the most efficient parts of a system is simply logic. Europe needs a strong agriculture and France can do that for Europe.
BTW UK has been largely subsidised : Northern Ireland, scotland, Wales and all the devasted industrials areas of northern england have received ton of money from Bruxelles.

Always the same contempt for the Québecois. You speak of Québecois as if they were lazy monkeys unable to do anything without the anglophone supermen. I really understand the seperatism movement. If I was a Québecois, I would not want to stay in a country with millions of people who despised me, just for speaking French.


Moi? Monsieur, je vive dans un pays anglophone, mais je ne suis pas un anglo saxon. Je suis puertoriquen. Doncs, comment pouvez-vous dire que je deteste les Quebecois?

Je l'aime le Quebec. Montreal est une ville merveilleuse. Je parle le francais maintenant, j'ai etudie la langue pour cuatre anee dans le lycee. J'aime le francais. La probleme est que le Parti Quebecois a une vision d'un Quebec libre que ne va pas corresponder avec la realite. Si les canadiens ne voudraient pas parler le francias quand le Quebec es une parte du Canada, pourquoi ils vontapprendre le langue quand le Quebec est libre? La domination de l'anglais ne va pas terminer avec l'independence. Il y a 300.000.000 anglophones, 330.000.000 hispanophones, et 180.000.000 lusophones. Et 5.000.000 dans l'Amerique Nord et Sud.

C'est seulement que je voudrais dire. Et, le Parti Quebecois ne dit pas la verite. Le francais dans un Quebec libre tendra la meme posicion comme maintenant.

^ I'm sorry buddy, Canada is not a bilingual country.

Lost boy: I dont see why you're giving our french friend such a hard time for sharing his opinion, we've also got a friend in Massachussets contributing to this fine debate.

You are wrong: Quebec is not a french-speaking country, it's a bilingual province.

in french pays (country) doesn't have the same meaning in english.

he was saying Quebec as a country (not the same meaning as a state like canada is)

and Quebec isn't bilingual man, you're dreaming.

lots of people on the island speak both, but its only buisness, nothing to do with the language spoken at home.

When I see on these forums the contempt of the anglophones for the Francophones and the French heritage and present of Canada, I understand why there is a strong movement for separatism in Québec. Why would the Québecois want to stay in a country where they are considered as subcitizens, where they are despised ?


It's more the other way around .. English Canada are now the second class citizens. Every party is catering to Quebec... the BQ, the Liberals and now Harper and the Conservatives. Think about it, how many years has Canada been ruled by a Quebecer in the last four decades alone? How many special side-deals does Quebec get from the feds? For one, look at Quebec's immigration policy... how come Ontario has nothing similiar to it? How come every provincial-federal deal offers an expection clause for Quebec? ... For example.. for the health care deal.. why is Quebec given the right to design its waiting list plan according to its own standards and objectives when every other province have to follow the fed's discretion? I still have no idea how Canadians put up with Quebec.. It takes a lot of patience just to listen to the Quebecers whine all day about how they're being supressed by English Canadians. Maybe assimilation would have been better for all of us... last time I checked, Louisanians weren't complaining and whining.

Seperatism has been killing my ear drums since the day I got of my plane and settled in Canada.

^^^ Right on!!!

if you don't like politicians coming from quebec, why the heck do you vote for them?!??!

Quebec for sure didn't vote for them.

You are the only ones to blame if you can't prepare great politicians for this great country.... sigh. you guys are hopeless.

It's more the other way around .. English Canada are now the second class citizens. Every party is catering to Quebec... the BQ, the Liberals and now Harper and the Conservatives. Think about it, how many years has Canada been ruled by a Quebecer in the last four decades alone? How many special side-deals does Quebec get from the feds? For one, look at Quebec's immigration policy... how come Ontario has nothing similiar to it? How come every provincial-federal deal offers an expection clause for Quebec? ... For example.. for the health care deal.. why is Quebec given the right to design its waiting list plan according to its own standards and objectives when every other province have to follow the fed's discretion? I still have no idea how Canadians put up with Quebec.. It takes a lot of patience just to listen to the Quebecers whine all day about how they're being supressed by English Canadians. Maybe assimilation would have been better for all of us... last time I checked, Louisanians weren't complaining and whining.

Seperatism has been killing my ear drums since the day I got of my plane and settled in Canada.


health is a provincial jurisdiction, if other provinces don't want to deal with those responsabilities, why should Quebec be punished?

why don't you bitch after your mp about that issue? why don't you call your premier and tell them that you want your province to have its own say about that issue!?!?

you guys aren't voicing your opinions, thus you loose.

Lets go steal Greenland

Federal Transfers to Quebec

The Government of Canada provides financial support to the government of Quebec, most notably through the Canada Health Transfer (CHT), the Canada Social Transfer (CST), and Equalization.

It is estimated that in 2005-06, support through major transfers to Quebec will total nearly $15.6 billion (about $2,052 per person).

In 2004-05, federal major transfers are estimated to account for about 26 per cent of the province's revenues.

Federal Transfers to Ontario

The Government of Canada provides financial support to the government of Ontario, most notably through the Canada Health Transfer (CHT), and the Canada Social Transfer (CST).

It is estimated that in 2005-06, support through major transfers to Ontario will total about $18.6 billion (about $1,487 per person).

In 2004-05, federal major transfers are estimated to account for about 21 per cent of the province's revenues.

Link & complete breakdown of Federal Transfers:
http://www.fin.gc.ca/FEDPROV/mtpe.html

HMMM!

And how would the Government of Quebec make up that 26% in loss revenue? Increased Maple Syrup production?

Federal Transfers to Quebec

The Government of Canada provides financial support to the government of Quebec, most notably through the Canada Health Transfer (CHT), the Canada Social Transfer (CST), and Equalization.

It is estimated that in 2005-06, support through major transfers to Quebec will total nearly $15.6 billion (about $2,052 per person).

In 2004-05, federal major transfers are estimated to account for about 26 per cent of the province's revenues.

Federal Transfers to Ontario

The Government of Canada provides financial support to the government of Ontario, most notably through the Canada Health Transfer (CHT), and the Canada Social Transfer (CST).

It is estimated that in 2005-06, support through major transfers to Ontario will total about $18.6 billion (about $1,487 per person).

In 2004-05, federal major transfers are estimated to account for about 21 per cent of the province's revenues.

Link & complete breakdown of Federal Transfers:
http://www.fin.gc.ca/FEDPROV/mtpe.html

HMMM!

And how would the Government of Quebec make up that 26% in loss revenue? Increased Maple Syrup production?


nah, just get back the money its sending Ottawa every year. A bit over 20B a year. (with less overhead as a bonus ;) )

It's more the other way around .. English Canada are now the second class citizens. Every party is catering to Quebec... the BQ, the Liberals and now Harper and the Conservatives. Think about it, how many years has Canada been ruled by a Quebecer in the last four decades alone? How many special side-deals does Quebec get from the feds? For one, look at Quebec's immigration policy... how come Ontario has nothing similiar to it? How come every provincial-federal deal offers an expection clause for Quebec? ... For example.. for the health care deal.. why is Quebec given the right to design its waiting list plan according to its own standards and objectives when every other province have to follow the fed's discretion? I still have no idea how Canadians put up with Quebec.. It takes a lot of patience just to listen to the Quebecers whine all day about how they're being supressed by English Canadians. Maybe assimilation would have been better for all of us... last time I checked, Louisanians weren't complaining and whining.

Seperatism has been killing my ear drums since the day I got of my plane and settled in Canada.


This is an ugly thread, by what I’m increasingly starting to find an ugly country.

A few points:

There is a lot of talk about the “special treatment” for Quebec. But there are no powers that the federal government has given to Quebec that is not available to all other provinces if they want it. When Ottawa concedes something to Quebec, it must legally concede it to all provinces if they want it. And for the most part, most canadians seem very happy about Ottawa relinquishing rights to the provinces. Quebec should be thanked for the pressure it puts on the federal government to give provinces more independence.

As this document shows (http://www.td.com/economics/topic/db0305_ont.pdf) Quebec benefits greatly from transfer payments these days in total dollars, but the numbers are very small on a per capital basis. The large sums that go into Quebec are a result of the size of the province. If you’re looking for important disparities between what provinces get and what they send to Ottawa, you should be looking at the Maritimes and the North. Everybody also forgets that up until recently, Quebec was a “have” province that was sending more to Ottawa that it was getting. These things change, and if you’re against solidarity between provinces as the economy shifts, than you’re essentially against the concept of confederation.

Lots of people are bitching about the fact that all the prime ministers for a while have been from Quebec, but you all seem to forget that most of them were very unpopular here. Trudeau, Chretien, Martin, they got elected thanks to Ontario, not Quebec. It seems the necessary pattern to get elected around here is to be a Quebecer that Quebecers hate. Don’t blame Quebec for this.

What are all these other things that Quebec gets that get you all so upset? Subsidies to Bombardier? That’s just the nature of the aerospace business. The US subsidises Boeing and that benefits the Seattle area. The EU subsidises Airbus and that benefits the Toulouse area (among others). Bombardier happens to be based out of Montreal , but as long as the federal government wants to have a player in the aerospace business, it will subsidise it and that will benefit the area where that company is located. It would be no different if that company was based somewhere else in the country.

Finally, everybody says they’re fed up about discussing Quebec independence, but every second week there’s a thread on this subject started on this forum by an anglo. And within 24 hours, 4 pages of other anglos have jumped in to give their opinion. (Meanwhile, you see nothing about this subject on the Quebec threads. I won’t even get into the ironic comments about Quebec being a racist, angry province…)

When was the last time (give us the year) Quebec was a "have" province?

The whole premise behind Quebec independence revolves around racism.

When was the last time (give us the year) Quebec was a "have" province?

The whole premise behind Quebec independence revolves around racism.

The premise of Quebec independence is that the current federal system doesn’t work as it is. The senate is a useless, costly retirement home. The sponsorship and gun registry scandals show the lack of accountability the government has. All political parties have become regional. Ottawa shafts the provinces, which shaft the municipalities in return. Meech Lake and Charlettown have shown we are unable to change even a comma on our constitution. Lots of areas besides Quebec are talking about session. We still have the Queen of England as head of state, for Christ’s sake. The government needs reform. Perhaps we should all be open to suggestions to changes rather than trying to kick out those who are suggesting it. If Canada can’t change, it is doomed.

My experience has been that Quebec is one of the least racist province in this country.

What would Montreal name their hockey team if they seperated? That is the real question. :eek:

Up until the start of the 20th century, “Canadien” was meant to define “French Canadian”. In fact, it was often used pejoratively by the anglos to talk about francos (24 Stanly Cup later, who’s laughing?…) So it would actually make sense for french Canadians to keep on using the term “Canadians”.

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

One more thing. Those talking about “second class citizens” should know what is what like to growing up as a french canadian in Montreal just two or three generations ago. You were poor so probably couldn’t afford a real education, you had not a chance in hell of ever getting hired by a large company because all of the management was in the hands of an old boy’s club of anglos, you lived in the poor East end neighbourhoods, you couldn’t get any service in french anywhere downtown. You probably ended up toiling away in the mills along the Lachine canal or worked as a servant to a wealthy english family in Westmount. French Canadians were called “white ******s”. If you visited Montreal then, you would never have guessed the majority of the people spoke french cause you never saw them. This is not that long ago, more or less your grand-parents generation.

I’m not advocating living in the past or “getting back” at the anglos, quite the contrary. We need a strong anglo community in Quebec. However, I find it ironic that it is english Canada that is angry at Quebec, and not the other way around. Also, when most people outside Canada see the progress the francophones have done since the 60s peacefully and through negotiation, they think it is fantastic. My guess is that's how the history books will see it also.

Canada ( we will say 85% of it, speaks English ) Why should the rest of us put up with French on every thing when I was told ( correct me if Im wrong ) That products in Quebec do not come with English on them? In BC , we have some stop signs with French on them . This is as far as you can get away from Quebec, with out leaving Canada and still WE are pluagued by "the french bug " . More people in BC speak Asian then French . So should we put Asian on Kraft Dinner boxes , so we dont offend them ? This is a English Speaking Contenent . Get with the program , step in line and shut the hell up . Were sick of it . ... Dont make the rest of us pay for you to be different , which you remind us of ALL THE TIME !

More people in BC speak asian then French


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


keep'em coming

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Canada ( we will say 85% of it, speaks English ) Why should the rest of us put up with French on every thing when I was told ( correct me if Im wrong ) That products in Quebec do not come with English on them? In BC , we have some stop signs with French on them . This is as far as you can get away from Quebec, with out leaving Canada and still WE are pluagued by "the french bug " . More people in BC speak Asian then French . So should we put Asian on Kraft Dinner boxes , so we dont offend them ? This is a English Speaking Contenent . Get with the program , step in line and shut the hell up . Were sick of it . ... Dont make the rest of us pay for you to be different , which you remind us of ALL THE TIME !

"Don't make the rest of us PAY for you..."
Stop signs with French on them.... What a high price, indeed ! Poor anglophones, they are really oppressed : they are forced to see stop signs with FRENCH on them !!!!! awful !

BTW, what is this language, "Asian" ?

If Anglophones didn't want to accept the French heritage of Canada, so they shouldn't have annexed Québec.

From what I've gathered from history, quebecois were more supressed by the catholic church (which controlled education in most of quebec until the 1960s) than by the english. If you really want to go along elite lines, it wasn't anglophones that controlled Montreal for most of its history, it was the Jewish community.

My Canada includes Quebec, but if they really want out, they are not going to benefit from our dollar, our passports, and leave us with their share of the national debt and remove 25% of the population and our ability to fairly pay it off. Since the debt is in Canada's name, the rest of the country would have to fall appart in order to survive economically. Most of the smaller provinces would definately lose out, and would probably lose a lot of their populations to Ontario, Alberta, and BC.

Quebec leaving Canada would have to be a long transitional phase, or both of us would be fucked over. If seperatism ever did occur, the best option is probably an EU-style neoliberal community. Still, many of the provinces (atlantic Canada especially) would lose out, and quebec itself would probably lose at least 1/5th of it's population.

Canada ( we will say 85% of it, speaks English ) Why should the rest of us put up with French on every thing when I was told ( correct me if Im wrong ) That products in Quebec do not come with English on them? In BC , we have some stop signs with French on them . This is as far as you can get away from Quebec, with out leaving Canada and still WE are pluagued by "the french bug " . More people in BC speak Asian then French . So should we put Asian on Kraft Dinner boxes , so we dont offend them ? This is a English Speaking Contenent . Get with the program , step in line and shut the hell up . Were sick of it . ... Dont make the rest of us pay for you to be different , which you remind us of ALL THE TIME !

Asian? That's got to be a new language i wasn't aware of? You're such a dumb fuck!

PLease guys! tell your local politicians that you wanna kick québec out.Please do it!

the ignorance disp^layed here shows that the majority of you people in the ROC are children and have no idea what you're talking about.

Au lieu de bitcher et de chialer, faites quelque chose. vous n'aimz pas le québec, et bine dites le à votre politicien local qu'il fasse quelque chose pour remedier au problème!! bande de caves!

Asian? That's got to be a new language i wasn't aware of? You're such a dumb fuck!

PLease guys! tell your local politicians that you wanna kick québec out.Please do it!

the ignorance disp^layed here shows that the majority of you people in the ROC are children and have no idea what you're talking about.

Au lieu de bitcher et de chialer, faites quelque chose. vous n'aimz pas le québec, et bine dites le à votre politicien local qu'il fasse quelque chose pour remedier au problème!! bande de caves!

Calmes-toi un peut, OK-là?

Les Quebecois NE VOULONS PAS nous séparer du reste du Canada: 2 reférenda c'est pas assez???

Le majorité des canadiens veulent que le Québec continue au sein du Canada et n'ont absolument rien contre les francophones du Québec. La preuve est qu'ils votent aux politiciens Québecois sans problème (Trudeau, Chrétien, etc.)

On c'est que sa vous fait chier que la majorité des quebecois veulent que le Québec soit une province canadienne, mais c'est la vie.

Up until the start of the 20th century, “Canadien” was meant to define “French Canadian”.

precisely why any Canadian 'anglo' with a sense of history should think the idea of 'kicking' Quebec out of Canada is ridiculous.

Seperatism is a political non-issue of the worst kind. It is it's own problem, it retains a perpetual momentum that can't be stopped.

The worst thing is these referendums. The idea behind a referendum is that you only need ONE, because you're making a decision. Politicians shouldn't be allowed to keep having referendums on an issue that Québecois have already decided on. Non. Whats the point of having a confederation if it can be renegotiated every 5 years?

The real issue is how to prevent seperatist polititians from dragging Canada through the mud every time they want to boost their careers with a cause that's killing the country, and Quebec. It's the political non-issue.

Canada ( we will say 85% of it, speaks English ) Why should the rest of us put up with French on every thing when I was told ( correct me if Im wrong ) That products in Quebec do not come with English on them? In BC , we have some stop signs with French on them . This is as far as you can get away from Quebec, with out leaving Canada and still WE are pluagued by "the french bug " . More people in BC speak Asian then French . So should we put Asian on Kraft Dinner boxes , so we dont offend them ? This is a English Speaking Contenent . Get with the program , step in line and shut the hell up . Were sick of it . ... Dont make the rest of us pay for you to be different , which you remind us of ALL THE TIME !

There are 130 million north americans who speak Spanish, you know. :sly:

I haven't read the whole thread. Just read the first few posts. But I'd like to comment on Quebec. I don't think Quebec should be kicked out of Canada, or be a seperate nation state. Quebec has been part of Canada, and they are our brothers. We have learn to co-exist.

Also, what do you guys think about complete provincial autonomy for Quebec ? and still remain part of Canada. They could have there own Prime Minister, President, Flag, etc. But, foreign affairs, military, and currency should be under the Canadian Union.

Complete provincial autonomy for Quebec would help remove the 'sense' of sepatarism. Or, divide the province, make it smaller, and in the process, the independent seeking movements would die off.

Don't divide provinces on ethnicities, thats the biggest mistake ever.

Canada ( we will say 85% of it, speaks English ) Why should the rest of us put up with French on every thing when I was told ( correct me if Im wrong ) That products in Quebec do not come with English on them? In BC , we have some stop signs with French on them . This is as far as you can get away from Quebec, with out leaving Canada and still WE are pluagued by "the french bug " . More people in BC speak Asian then French . So should we put Asian on Kraft Dinner boxes , so we dont offend them ? This is a English Speaking Contenent . Get with the program , step in line and shut the hell up . Were sick of it . ... Dont make the rest of us pay for you to be different , which you remind us of ALL THE TIME !

6 million out of 30 million is how much?

Why can't you ignore the french writing on things? I do. They make it smaller for a reason.

And about the first question, since you are obviously too dumb to figure it out on your own, is about a fifth of the population, or 20 per cent. Which leavesabout 80% english speaking. But counting for your "asian" speakers, and the natives, and the "european" speakers, we'd have another, say, 20% there. So really, only about 60% of the country (in a generous estimate) speaks and understands only English.

In other words... hehe, monolinguist is scared! :|

It´s not a matter of how many speak english or how many speak french...

Quebec can't separate from the rest of Canada without the rest of Canada wanting that, because Quebec belongs to all canadians.

But we are wasting our time discussing on this because the majority of quebecers don't wan't that to happen.

Anyways, if that happens one day, I will support the separation of N.D.G. from the island of Montreal. (Just for fun).

Canada ( we will say 85% of it, speaks English ) Why should the rest of us put up with French on every thing when I was told ( correct me if Im wrong ) That products in Quebec do not come with English on them? In BC , we have some stop signs with French on them . This is as far as you can get away from Quebec, with out leaving Canada and still WE are pluagued by "the french bug " . More people in BC speak Asian then French . So should we put Asian on Kraft Dinner boxes , so we dont offend them ? This is a English Speaking Contenent . Get with the program , step in line and shut the hell up . Were sick of it . ... Dont make the rest of us pay for you to be different , which you remind us of ALL THE TIME !

So what the hell is your problem? You know what you are? A whiner. As if it's such a big deal to have french on road signs. Boo hoo.

And guess what? 'Asian', if such a language existed, is not a founding language of our country. If you piss and whine about something you don't understand, you might ruin it.

So eat your bilingual Kraft Dinner and shut the f*@k up!

The premise of Quebec independence is that the current federal system doesn’t work as it is. The senate is a useless, costly retirement home. The sponsorship and gun registry scandals show the lack of accountability the government has. All political parties have become regional. Ottawa shafts the provinces, which shaft the municipalities in return. Meech Lake and Charlettown have shown we are unable to change even a comma on our constitution. Lots of areas besides Quebec are talking about session. We still have the Queen of England as head of state, for Christ’s sake. The government needs reform. Perhaps we should all be open to suggestions to changes rather than trying to kick out those who are suggesting it. If Canada can’t change, it is doomed.


I have no doubt that the majority of Albertans would agree with most of what you have just said. However, you don't see too many of them seriously considering the independence option, and they don't receive billions in equilization payments - unlike Quebec.

Quebec benefits more from Confederation than any other province. Confederation is propping up its economy and protecting its language/culture. Whereas in the case of Alberta, Confederation is a big drag on the wealth of its residents through excessive taxation to support the "have-not" provinces - like Quebec.

So why is the independence movement so strong in Quebec and so weak in Alberta? It is because many French Canadians in Quebec want to secure and maximize their advantage over all other groups in the province. Whereas, Albertans have no such desire.

Canada ( we will say 85% of it, speaks English ) Why should the rest of us put up with French on every thing when I was told ( correct me if Im wrong ) That products in Quebec do not come with English on them? In BC , we have some stop signs with French on them . This is as far as you can get away from Quebec, with out leaving Canada and still WE are pluagued by "the french bug " . More people in BC speak Asian then French . So should we put Asian on Kraft Dinner boxes , so we dont offend them ? This is a English Speaking Contenent . Get with the program , step in line and shut the hell up . Were sick of it . ... Dont make the rest of us pay for you to be different , which you remind us of ALL THE TIME !

Just where are these French stop signs in BC?

Albertans don't wan't Quebec to separate from the rest of Canada because Canada without Quebec wouldn't be Canada anymore.

Canada is probably the best country of the world. Why brake it?
Isn't the example of Yugoslavia enough?

"Don't make the rest of us PAY for you..."
Stop signs with French on them.... What a high price, indeed ! Poor anglophones, they are really oppressed : they are forced to see stop signs with FRENCH on them !!!!! awful !



Do you have English on stop signs in Quebec? Why not, would French-Canadians feel oppressed by the English-speaking hordes in the province?

It's more than a bit rich for you to mock the guy for complaining about French traffic signs in BC where less than 1% of the population speaks French, when you can't tolerate them in Quebec where 20% (?) of the population speaks English.

It's true. Canada's bilingualism is a bad joke. Toronto and (moreso?)Vancouver both likely have more people speaking Chinese than French. Once you hit central Ontario, French dies. Look at myself as an example. I'm tri-lingual, I have a language from North America, Europe, and Asia. But while I can read French, French is not one of my three languages, no, Swedish is my European language. Is that sad?

Canada is a multicultural nation, as such, there will be tons of languages than enter our environment in the big cities (where immigrants end up most of the time). There is no real point in maintaining this bilingual status-quo, because the reality of it is that is a lie. Canada is not bilingual in the big picture. You go to Quebec, they speak French, you go to ROC, they speak English, you go to the big cities, you'll encouter a number of languages depending on the neighborhood.

I think it is time for us to go now. I have never been for separation before, I have always been in the status quo categorie so to speek. But when I look at it, we in Montreal are still loosing companies to the rest of Canada (mainly Toronto) because of this threat of separation. I say let's get it over with, so we can finally turn the page on this threat.

The main argument of federalists in Quebec is actually that our economy would go to shit if we separate, but again, one could make the argument that our economy has been suffering for 40 years now from staying in Canada. Now dont get me wrong, I am aware that in the short term it will be bad for Quebec's economy, but I think that in the long term we will be able to become more competitive than we are now.

Also, I dont want anyone to think a hate Canada, I love Canada and think it is one of the best countries in the world.
I agree with what you say LP, the separation debate is an ugly wound that won't heal. Either the separatist have to be nullified or Quebec separates. The current situation is stifling growth and promoting hatred in both Quebec and the ROC. This is in no ones best interests.

Once you hit central Ontario, French dies.

That's certianly not true. Winnipeg and Manitoba have a rich franco heritage... Les Métis. Surely you've heard of Louis Riel.

checl out the Metis National Council (http://www.metisnation.ca/)

official language doesn't need to depend on population percentages... that's absurd. Official languages reflect a nations heritage... and I dare anyone here to argue that French Canadians did not serve an integral part in the birth and shape of this country.

I hear alot of western Canadians bitch about billingualism. I live in Southern Ontario... no French is spoken here. I don't recall, in my lifetime, hearing anyone complain about French language influence, having french on some road signs, having 2 languages on 'Kraft Dinner' boxes, or even receiving a french t.v. station no matter where you live. My point is that no one gives a rats ass if french isn't spoken in your corner of the country... it's utterly irrellevant.

you know what appalls me with pro-seperation among English Canadians? I hear complaints about the political and economic sacrifices we make to keep Quebec (for better or worse), but theres no mention of what Quebec gives us. Quebec has two of, by far, the most interesting (and picturesque) Canadian cities, to say the least. Quebec is incredibly beautiful; it posseses a massive variety of landscape, some of it entirely unique to Quebec. Some of the best Canadians are from there. Our oldest institutions exist there, and alot of our culture is rooted there as well.

Let's stop taking Quebec for granted. And let's stop stereotyping Quebec as a ungrateful, spoiled child. It's as much our fault as it is the seperatists that we've let a beautiful relationship go sour.

That's certianly not true. Winnipeg and Manitoba have a rich franco heritage... Les Métis. Surely you've heard of Louis Riel.




While your point regarding the country's history is correct, let's take a moment and examine today's reality. You mention Winnipeg where French is particularly strong when compared to the rest of western Canada. Okay, lets start with Winnipeg:

- only about 4% of the population have French as their mother tongue.

Now a few other cities:

Toronto - only around 1% of the population have French as their mother tongue.

Kitchener - only around 1% of the population have French as their mother tongue.

London - only around 1% of the population have French as their mother tongue.

Hamilton - only around 1.5% of the population have French as their mother tongue.

Regina - only around 1% of the population have French as their mother tongue.

Saskatoon - only around 1% of the population have French as their mother tongue.

Calgary - only around 1.5% of the population have French as their mother tongue.

Edmonton - only around 2% of the population have French as their mother tongue. Wow, Edmonton's another hotbed of French-language activity.

Vancouver - only around 1% of the population have French as their mother tongue. About 15 % of the pop. have Chinese as their mother tongue.

Victoria - only around 1% of the population have French as their mother tongue.

There are many times more people with Chinese as their mother tongue in Vancouver alone, than those who have French as their mother tongue in all of western Canada!

Today (I'm not talking about the fur-trading era), French is of no real importance in Canada outside of Quebec and New Brunswick - except for a few tiny communities.

http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/demo12e.htm

^ I see your point, but I still think that those percentages are irrellevant. A billingual country doesn't 'require' everyone to speak both languages. I don't see why it's so bloody offensive that we give an official nod to le francais... it's ignorant to suggest that French is no more important to Canada than Madarin or Cantonese, for example. There's more to this issue than mother-tongue percentages.

..perhaps the catholic church should ditch Latin? (I could hear the pope now... "Yo, condoms are wack, check out my holy bling-bling"... :) )

You convienently left out Sudbury... French as a mother-tongue is almost 50%

Addendum to my prior post...

Now for Quebec's cities:

Montreal - about 12 % have English as their mother tongue.

Sherbrooke - about 5 % have English as their mother tongue.

Quebec City - about 1.4 % have English as their mother tongue.

But of course to cater to the Francophones, we have French traffic signs in western Canada, but no English traffic signs in Quebec.

^... it's ignorant to suggest that French is no more important to Canada than Madarin or Cantonese, for example. There's more to this issue than mother-tongue percentages.

Actually, what's ignorant is to suggest that French is anywhere near as important as Chinese in the personal lives of Canadians in the ROC- just look at the numbers. This isn't the 1700's. Many times more people in the ROC speak Chinese than French.

You convienently left out Sudbury... French as a mother-tongue is almost 50%

You are full of it. I didn't conveniently leave out any city! Jesus, was I supposed to list every city in the country? I decided to list only the larger centers, and even with Sudbury's French speakers (mother tongue), Chinese is still more commonly spoken (by a factor of many times) in the ROC than French.

By the way Sudbury is 28 % French (mother tongue, not almost 50%).

But of course to cater to the Francophones, we have French traffic signs in western Canada, but no English traffic signs in Quebec.

I won't argue that there aren't discrepencies, if you will, in our execution of billingual reality.

However, I do support having billingual signs and services across the country. It's just a physical manifestation of a Canadian dream. Even if the equal polar reality of anglo/franco doesn't exist anymore, it's what our country was founded on. Many countries are officially billingual, in many more languages than 2 (India, for example). None are based on two distinct lingual/religious groups like Canada. This is what Canada is.

But why say 'cater'? Such an ugly word. I'm sure most Quebecois don't care if there are french traffic signs in B.C. In fact, no one is forcing anyone to deal in either language (except in Quebec, sadly), so why all the fuss. Ideally, I'd see every Canadian speak both English and French fluently. Why? Not to 'cater' to either language, not to disrespect anyone, or pretend that anglo/franco is 50/50.... because it's the Canadian way. It's a beautiful idea.

Actually, what's ignorant is to suggest that French is anywhere near as important as Chinese in the personal lives of Canadians in the ROC- just look at the numbers. This isn't the 1700's. Many times more people in the ROC speak Chinese than French.

I suppose... good thing I didn't suggest that.

I won't argue that there aren't discrepencies, if you will, in our execution of billingual reality.

LOL!!! You're not kidding; we have French-only in Quebec and Government sponsored French with English in the ROC.

However, I do support having billingual signs and services across the country. It's just a physical manifestation of a Canadian dream. Even if the equal polar reality of anglo/franco doesn't exist anymore, it's what our country was founded on. Many countries are officially billingual, in many more languages than 2 (India, for example). None are based on two distinct lingual/religious groups like Canada. This is what Canada is.

Wrong - on many levels! First, it may be your dream, but it was never a "Canadian" dream. FYI, it wasn't even the dream of P.E. Trudeau's. He only introduced official bilingualism into the Government of Canada (and its agencies) so that Francophones would not be excluded. It was never intended to force French onto Anglophone Canadians, but that was in fact what happened. When I entered high school, French language instruction was forced upon us and we were told: look, if you ever want to work in the civil service and get a promotion, you'll now have to know French. Ottawa was making things better for Francophones, while making things worse for the majority - while we got the bill for it.

But why say 'cater'? Such an ugly word. I'm sure most Quebecois don't care if there are french traffic signs in B.C. In fact, no one is forcing anyone to deal in either language (except in Quebec, sadly), so why all the fuss. Ideally, I'd see every Canadian speak both English and French fluently. Why? Not to 'cater' to either language, not to disrespect anyone, or pretend that anglo/franco is 50/50.... because it's the Canadian way. It's a beautiful idea.

"Cater" is not an ugly word, it desribes the reality. I could have used "pander" instead of "cater" - same thing. If you want to see an ugly word, how is "blackmail"? Ottawa caters and panders to Quebec, while the ROC is blackmailed by it.

Why all the fuss? I shouldn't have to explain it to you, but we are getting stuck with the bill to promote bilingualism in places it isn't needed when we have line ups just to get on waiting lists for an appointment for many surgical procedures. Do you understand what I have just said? In Canada, you have to wait before you can even get a damned waiting list for some medical procedures.

Why all the fuss? I shouldn't have to explain it to you, but we are getting stuck with the bill to promote bilingualism in places it isn't needed when we have line ups just to get on waiting lists for an appointment for many surgical procedures. Do you understand what I have just said? In Canada, you have to wait before you can even get a damned waiting list for some medical procedures.

Why are you talking to me like I'm an idiot? I fully understand what you're saying. Calm down a bit, s'il vous plait.

Do you really think removing official billingualism across the country will help to fund our medicare? Personally, I think it's worth the cost.

And why be so bitter about having french forced upon you in high school? Everyone went through the same thing... I'm glad I can speak a second language, albiet not very well. How is this a bad thing?

OceanMDX, I'm suprised you don't view billingualism as an asset for Canada.

this thread is *a little bit* agressive and full of weird comments.

hope everyone will have good sex tonight.

Do you have English on stop signs in Quebec? Why not, would French-Canadians feel oppressed by the English-speaking hordes in the province?


YES there's STOP signs you stupid moron!! get your head out of your ass!!!

stop crying for murder...

i will personnaly go right now and take a shot of a stop sign and post it so you can stfu.

Checking in this thread... 123 posts; impressive, obviously a hot button issue.

I do think another referendum is on its way, but it's interesting that I don't think I've ever cared about the 'positive' result less... How many times can there be a referendum? Every 10-15 years? Sounds like a very raw deal for the rest of the provinces. Separation hovers in very low single digits elsewhere (1-2%) so Quebec is really the only reluctant partner...

I think we should start looking at it kind of like the Bloc -- what is good for Canada? Quebec is not very good for Canada as things stand right now. It drains money and uses the Canadian citizenship for the sake of convenience (passport/currency/etc.). Yet, it is unhappy with the union. What Quebec wants, equal voice as the other 9 provinces combined, nobody can give. It's probably not a bad time to say bye. It's also not a bad idea that Canada, and not Quebec, pulls the plug.

^ I wonder how often a country actually kicks out a part of itself. Would be pretty odd if the Quebecers in parliament were told, "Get the F*uck Outta Here, you are no longer welcome in Canada"

Bilingualism works in places where there is an even spread of the languages spoken country-wide. In this instance (i.e. Canada) it really doesn't make much sense. I live in the French district of Winnipeg and here it makes some sense. On the other hand, outside of St. Boniface there are few French speakers yet the city still provides services in French in those areas. By that logic, why not have Cree or Tagalog on stop signs as well as there are undoubtedly as many if not more speakers of those languages here ? In Quebec, French is dominant and as such should be the official language of the province. The rest of Canada should decide on a municipal basis whether or not to include French as an official language. It's simply a drain of tax dollars to have English in Quebec city and French in Calgary. No sense to it at all.

At times this idea of kicking Quebec out has crossed my mind but it is always pushed out by reasonable and rational thoughts. The idea of kicking Quebec out of Canada comes more out of the hurt of having Quebec constantly want to leave than out of anit-Quebec malice.

I do think that another referendum will occur sometime not too far in the future. Last referendum I was so worried that Quebec would separate. This time I don't really give a shit, it just does not matter to me anymore. I've gotten use to thinking that they don't want us and well.... once that happens the idea of us without them becomes easier.

YES there's STOP signs you stupid moron!! get your head out of your ass!!!

stop crying for murder...

i will personnaly go right now and take a shot of a stop sign and post it so you can stfu.

Read this, you frustrated, hysterical, knuckle-walking troglodyte:

"So when one walks into Quebec, (s)he will notice nearly all government signs are in French only. Even France itself is more open to the English language. In Quebec, nearly all stop signs say "ARRET"; in France, they say "STOP". In Manitoba, Ontario, Nova Scotia and other provinces, many provincial signs are labeled in both English and French, despite the fact that they are all English dominated areas. In Quebec, all provincial signs are in French only. In fact, Quebec even has a "language police" which enforce Quebec's strict language laws (see CBC Language in Quebec Backgrounder). All commercial signs in Quebec must contain French lettering that is at least twice as large as any other language. This would seem strange to most, since Canada is supposed to be a bilingual country. However, Quebec holds a lot of power in Canada's parliamentary system, and Quebecois tend to vote for one (or two) parties en masse, rather than splitting among the many parties that Canada has."

http://www.unitednorthamerica.org/quebec.htm

So you have a few traffic signs (stop) in English in a province with hundreds of thousands of English-speaking citizens (yes, they are citizens too, FYI). All I can say about the presence of English traffic signs in Quebec is that I didn't see any, but then again, I only drove all the way across Quebec and stayed a day in both Quebec City and Montreal. By the way, contrary to what you may think, I wasn't driving with my "head up my ass". "Sovereignists" should get tickets for that in Quebec though, since that's exactly where their head is. :)

And do try to calm down my little fee-fee! :weirdo:

OceanMDX, I'm suprised you don't view billingualism as an asset for Canada.

Knowing a second language can be a great asset, as long as the second language is a lot more important than French - like Spanish or Manduran.

Checking in this thread... 123 posts; impressive, obviously a hot button issue.

I do think another referendum is on its way, but it's interesting that I don't think I've ever cared about the 'positive' result less... How many times can there be a referendum? Every 10-15 years? Sounds like a very raw deal for the rest of the provinces. Separation hovers in very low single digits elsewhere (1-2%) so Quebec is really the only reluctant partner...

I think we should start looking at it kind of like the Bloc -- what is good for Canada? Quebec is not very good for Canada as things stand right now. It drains money and uses the Canadian citizenship for the sake of convenience (passport/currency/etc.). Yet, it is unhappy with the union. What Quebec wants, equal voice as the other 9 provinces combined, nobody can give. It's probably not a bad time to say bye. It's also not a bad idea that Canada, and not Quebec, pulls the plug.

Bang on!

^Or Hindi!!!! No one should forget Hindi!

Anyways, this whole language laws thing does have some roots in reason. In the upcoming century, many languages will be endangered. Many Quebecers feared that this would happen in Quebec and although I think their fear is unfounded, it is certainly a possibility.

I'm not trying to say that the ends justify the means but I do understand why it was done.

I started this thread to INTELLIGENTLY discuss this important issue so stop the swearing and personal attacks.
I think Quebec adds much to this country and as I have said before, its not really the money but the attitude.
Special deals on health-care, the feds threaten to cut off money for BC and Alberta due to private clinics but they have a slew of them in Montreal but don't say a word.
Infastructure and contracts overwhelmingly go to Quebec. Quebec gets 70% of all money given to the provinces for Canda Day celecbration but there are almost no celebrations there. These things do not come into "transfer payments"
Their own pension, legal system, tons of money, all the Prime Ministers, political power, and more and yet they still bitch.
This is what my thread was about. The fact that the country can not be run on the whims of one province.
It is this that will lead to the demise of this country. Canadians are simply getting to the point where, no we don't want you to go but if you are going to then do because the country cannot be continually run by the blackmail of one province.

I think we have to go back to the original reason Canada was created as a country - fear of annexation by the US.

Quebec should be presented with an option: do you want us to remain with you as part of one country, or would you prefer to see the other provinces become part of the US? That scenario terrifies any thinking Quebecker, because it means that they would be totally isolated in NA against a rather unfriendly continent.

It may be possible for more power to be given to all provinces, but Quebec should never be given a special deal that's not available to all the other provinces.

And of course, if Quebec can separate from Canada, then parts of Quebec can in turn separate from it.

It may be possible for more power to be given to all provinces, but Quebec should never be given a special deal that's not available to all the other provinces.

And of course, if Quebec can separate from Canada, then parts of Quebec can in turn separate from it.
I'll second that motion.

^ I wonder how often a country actually kicks out a part of itself. Would be pretty odd if the Quebecers in parliament were told, "Get the F*uck Outta Here, you are no longer welcome in Canada"
I've heard that that's Singapore's story?

Being bilingual (or polylingual) is a complicated issue. First off, in order to make it as easy as possible, exposure to two (or more as was the case with me being exposed to three) environments whose languages differ should start from the earliest age possible, like pre-school. Second, what the languages are should be decided by a)their family history (the language spoken at home), b)the society they currently reside (the language spoken outside the home), and c)whatever language tickles your fancy for whatever reason if starting later in life.

The thing with language learning, is that you won't learn a damn thing if you don't want to learn it. People whine about how French is hard. No, French is not hard, French is just something you are not interested in... French is complicated, I admit, let's not kid ourselves, my point is that not being interested magnifies the complexity of a language several times. I can toddle off and study a language that doesn't even use the same writing system nevermind similar grammar and have an easy time (as far as grades were concerned, actually application in the real society where it is spoken is another matter).

The fact of the matter is that most Canadians outside Quebec really have no interest in learning French. It is not encountered anywhere in their lives with a few small specks in the odd part of the country, like a district in Winnipeg (note that it is just one district in the entire city that was mentioned). Languages are generally seen as attractive if they are useful. Why would I have thought Japanese useful? Well, what may have been immature thinking or daydreaming at the time turned out to be excellent foresight. In anycase, something made me interested, and there was something that I just absolutely loved about the language. French, while oddly enough I have the desire to learn it now, didn't tickle my fancy in high school, which was when I dropped the subject (although not at the first instance, it wasn't until my final year, half-way through that year, that I dropped it, due to parental insistence). Grade 10 is the first year where French is optional, yet English is never mandatory in Quebec.

Also, while I would like to study French again; Quebec is absolutely NOT THE PLACE TO STUDY FRENCH! This isn't the French spoken in France and other parts of the world, this is Quebequois, a corruption of French and a unique dialect of French indeginous to Quebec. French in the real world uses some English words in it (borrowed words/imported words, Japanese does the same as another reference), but Quebec extremists in their retarded paranoia of English takeover, got rid of these in the Quebequois dialect. Just like stop signs in France would say STOP, Parking in France is also Le Parking. Not in Quebec, as just one example, the extremists made a new word for Parking to distance themselves as much as possilbe from "this vile and terrifying filth" the world calls English. I've heard that French (people from France) and Quebeckers don't always understand each other.

The Government of Quebec and the extremists don't want to be a part of anything. However, we Canadians shouldn't be forced to be something we don't want to be either. We should be free to choose our own identity just as Quebec has chosen theirs. They want English removed, fine, we will remove French, and we will study the languages that we see fit, that benefit us, as French clearly does not. One example as already mentioned, Chinese (either of the 2 biggest dialects) is more benefiscial in urban Canada than French. The government should not be imposing a national linguistical identity arbitrarily chosen by historical roots. History is what it is: History. Times change, and with time things change shape. Quebec's government with its ill-will to be a part of anything has made itself incompatible with the rest of Canada, and might as well be given the boot, as they've caused so much damage that they've degraded their province to a mere parasite. The crying shame is the people that they drag with them because of the extremists' stupidity over the last quarter-century plus.

Separitism is a disease. Yugoslavia's example isn't enough?

What will the rest of Canada gain without having the province of Quebec?

Canada won't be Canada without Quebec. What will happen with the maritim islands?

Disaster!

Vive le Quebec! et Vive le Canada!

Quebec separatist care only about the French francophone.
Quebecers can be of any racial background.
The separatists refer to these Quebecers as the “money and ethnic vote"
This would suggest that the separatists are just racist.

The French language is not endangered of becoming extinct.
There are many Native languages in Quebec that are endangered.
The separatists don’t care about any savages.

Any group or person that refers to my flag as a “red rag”
can go find something interesting to FUCK themselves with.

i went to quebec last summer and i realised how they wanna be apart from canada... but i have a question..
would quebec be a first world nation if it's kicked out of canada????? i'm not sure if it would be a first worl nation as soon as they were kicked out from canada cause i don't know if quebec is an industrial and shit zone, and i dunno how the separation of canada could affect quebec.
i mean shit for all the shit a country needs to have to be a first world nation.

by the way quebec is awesome....

Anyways, a good way of getting Quebecers who are not curently separatists to become separatists, would be to have them come and take a peek at this thread with all the ignorant and racist comments towards Quebec and Quebecers from the people who live in the ROC. Keep it up guys, we really feel welcome in this country.

oh yeah, oceanmdx, you're a fucking idiot.

I'm outa here :runaway:

The bloc believes Canada is not a real country because
Canadians are not all the same race.

Only a racist or the truly ignorant would vote for the bloc.

Anyways, a good way of getting Quebecers who are not curently separatists to become separatists, would be to have them come and take a peek at this thread with all the ignorant and racist comments towards Quebec and Quebecers from the people who live in the ROC.

I dunno man, the way I see it many separatists have done a good job of making people from the ROC want to separate from Quebec by making ignorant and racist comments towards all non-separatists.

So if you not being a separatist want to encourage non-Quebecers to embrace Quebec instead of pushing it away perhaps you should do what you can to combat the separatists and their ignorant stupidity.

I dunno man, the way I see it many separatists have done a good job of making people from the ROC want to separate from Quebec by making ignorant and racist comments towards all non-separatists.

So if you not being a separatist want to encourage non-Quebecers to embrace Quebec instead of pushing it away perhaps you should do what you can to combat the separatists and their ignorant stupidity.

OK. I dont see how stooping down to the same level as certain separatists does anything to help the situation. And I say "certain separatist" because you should not automatically assume that a separatist is racist and ignorant, they tend to have different motivations for separation.

And I also dont see any Quebecers here spewing heinous comments about the ROC, so I see no reason why some of you guys should feel the need to do so.

^Fair enough.

Anyways, a good way of getting Quebecers who are not curently separatists to become separatists, would be to have them come and take a peek at this thread with all the ignorant and racist comments towards Quebec and Quebecers from the people who live in the ROC. Keep it up guys, we really feel welcome in this country.

Separatists only are supported by Quebec's electorate as a means to Blackmail the rest of the country. If they every won a referundum, most Quebeckers would have a heart attack when they learned they would lose their welfare (transfer) payments from Ottawa.

oh yeah, oceanmdx, you're a fucking idiot.

I'm outa here :runaway:

... and back on your lily pad?

:lock:

YES there's STOP signs you stupid moron!! get your head out of your ass!!!

stop crying for murder...

i will personnaly go right now and take a shot of a stop sign and post it so you can stfu.


Couldn't find one either eh? LMAO!!!

If you want to photograph a "STOP" sign, the closest one to you probably is in Ontario.

Separitism is a disease. Yugoslavia's example isn't enough?

I actually happen to be born there, and without moving into a completely indepth look, I will say a number of things are different with Canada. For those that don't care, skip to the next quote...

#1: Yugoslavia was made up of a number of different nationalities which has regional minorities, but were very rarely mixed.
#2: In addition to the Yugoslavian union being relatively young, most of the nationalities had bloody histories between each other long before the 1991-1995 wars. This didn't just happen out of nowhere.
#3: The support for separation was much higher in many provinces (actually republics); it wasn't just one province that seriously wanted to separate, it was 4 of them. In comparison, support for separation outside of Quebec is usually around 1-2%.
#4: This one is the key -- while the reasons for separation were definetely partly nationalist, they were also economic. Yugoslavia had a very similar equalization program which sapped from haves (Croatia and Slovenia) to have nots (everyone else). Here's the kicker: after the fall of communism, the debt forced Yugoslavia into BANKRUPCY, making the decision to separate all that much easier.

Croatia and Slovenia wanted to leave to save their economies, as well as to have their own countries. Bosnia and Macedonia followed as there were no scraps for them to get from elsewhere, and the economic structure, along with the national sentiment, made separation seem like a good deal. In the end, little worked out the way it was supposed to. But economic considerations are definetely important, and even nations that have no bad blood between them, but have economic problems, can develop hostilities between each other. The war is, in fact, no mystery, and while nationality is seen as #1 when reporting about Yugoslavia, it means nothing without looking at the economic situation of the country before separation (as mentioned, bankrupcy + the economic structure).

In fact, the Canadian situation is not very similar to Yugoslavia at all: most people in provinces have their voice, but aren't more nationalist about their province than the country -- the exception being Quebec. The economy of Canada is nowhere near bankrupcy. Furthermore, in Canada, Quebec is not a have province by any means. If we are to take the Yugoslavian scenario, it would be Ontario and Alberta that would wish to separate, but not Quebec.. Here, Quebec wishes to separate for almost entirely nationalist reasons.

Quebec's demands for an equal parts confederation between anglophone Canada (9/10 provinces [NB counted, although it is a billingual province]) and francophone Canada (1/10 provinces) is wholly unrealistic. Its demands for complete decentralization make Canada nothing more than a tool of convenience -- it can be despised and ignored 99% of the time, but the passport and the Canadian $ is nice to have. No thanks...


What will the rest of Canada gain without having the province of Quebec?

Well, personally I think apart from losing a fair bit of pride (no longer second largest country in the world, the loss of being a billingual country in NA [although NB still would be], the loss to total, although not per capita GDP), things might indeed be better. Quebec has been a stagnant economy for many years, and it seems fine with that. I don't have a big problem with equalization, but if Quebec doesn't want the money, I think we'll gladly take it back.

And, of course, the dynamic of the House of Commons would greatly change, likely for the better. It would likely represent the country better, as the Bloc has managed to hijack many an issue. I'm tired of that two-faced party in general. On the one hand it claims to be about as left as NDP (with an obviously important regional and separatist bias), but protests the infusion of money into education, environment, etc. -- all things they should at least somewhat support. Bleh.

Even better, maybe there can be a dramatic HoC redesign in the country after separation. When Bloc with 12% vote share can take 54 seats, and NDP at 16% takes 19 seats, you know there's something pretty wrong with what we have.


Canada won't be Canada without Quebec. What will happen with the maritim islands?

I'm sure something could be negotiated... Especially if the referendum produces a result in favour of separation, but only slightly so (in the 50-59% range), which is probably exactly what would happen... Canada would have a great bargaining position. In any case, it's a question often asked, but it's fairly irrelevant, actually.


Disaster!

It probably wouldn't be great for Quebec or for Canada at first. Both economies would suffer (although Quebec definetely more so), and the instability wouldn't be good. But you know, maybe it's better, than same crap every 15 years. Holding the ROC hostage like that is hardly a great alternative, and I'm sure economies outside of Quebec are hurt by the impact too. So, maybe it is better to settle it once and for all. And 'once and for all' can only result in separation, because when separatists are defeated they're allowed to go back to the drawing board, and do it all again in a decade and a half. That's the real disaster.

And I also dont see any Quebecers here spewing heinous comments about the ROC, so I see no reason why some of you guys should feel the need to do so.

Hello, Malek, GM? Oh, sure, they're not real, right. :|

Besides, their government does enough spewing to speak for them.

Furthermore, in Canada, Quebec is not a have province by any means.
This is the real mystery, and one that I call a large degree of BS on. Montreal's economy should be able to avoid have-not status, or at least close. For crying out loud, Saskatchewan is a have... what do they have for an economy? No big cities there, which means the economy is squat.

This is the real mystery, and one that I call a large degree of BS on. Montreal's economy should be able to avoid have-not status, or at least close. For crying out loud, Saskatchewan is a have... what do they have for an economy? No big cities there, which means the economy is squat.
No Quebec is a have-not province because it receives cash from the other provinces. Saskatchewan does not. Forget about the size of the economies, that has nothing to do with equalization in principle. Nine provinces could be have provinces if only one was receiving money or nine could be have-not if one were supporting the rest. It simply has to do with transfer payments and doesn't necessarily indicate the wealth of a province on a global scale.

It seems to me that alot of bitterness is towards problems in how Quebec is handled in the confederation. These can be fixed with time, and alot of work. The end result would be far more desirable than a fragmented Canada.

Quebec seperatism, as an ideal, does not yet represent the majority of Quebecois. If there was no seperatist movement, then would there be a problem with Quebec? Of course not... so why let the ideas of a few ruin such a great thing?

as a side track... honestly, what is the cost of billingualism? To print a sign with twice as many letters does not cost twice as much. To fund language instruction in high school... well for christs sake, consider yourselves lucky you ungrateful bastards :) You know, in the European Union parliament, every member countries language is represented. Thats alot of translating (about 20 languages I beleive), and a hell of alot more of a financial burden. It reminds me of that French expression that describes Europe as a bouquet de fleurs... we can't keep just two together?

I'll repeat my above point... we can improve our country, and Quebec, without seperation. We need to improve our attitudes, and we need to be able to discuss the facts with open minds.

^^^^^^^^^^Although I agree that most Quebecers do not really support the idea of a complete and total separation from Canada thats not really the point.
The point is that there is so much animosity towards Quebec because it gets everything it wants and thensome but STILL complains about it gets screwed.
My point of the forum was not that I want her to leave but more that if the federal gov't continues to have a total preoccupation with Quebec and appeasing her it will lead to the demise of the nation.
Canada is getting ignored to bribe one province. The nation derserves better. If all it takes is money to keep a province in the country, then leave. Atlantic provinces feel ignored , the West insignificant, and increasingly Ontario being Quebec's piggy bank.
There is even a small but growing movement in Ontario to simply go its own way and if that happens the country is gone.
Again, for the sake of the nation, maybe its time to break her up and say adieu.

My point of the forum was not that I want her to leave but more that if the federal gov't continues to have a total preoccupation with Quebec and appeasing her it will lead to the demise of the nation.

I completely agree. Though I must say the title you choose for this thread is contrary to the above point. Quebec isn't soley the problem, Ottawa is the problem. To use a inappropriate but accurate metaphor: it's not the childs fault that the parent spoils it.

Let's kick Ottawa out! We'll give them a 1km wide corridor all the way to James Bay for a sea port... or maybe they'll be stuck using just the Rideau Canal. We'll split the national debt 50/50 in punishment for the sponsorship scandal. Ha ha, suckers!

^^If Quebec seperates, lets give them a parting gift, Ottawa. And if they don't want it, then we insist they take it as part of the terms of seperation.

Blame Ottawa!

Yeah, I think we can all agree that the feds have caused national unity to plumet to where it is today.

I pretty much totally agree with SsiGuy on this.

^^If Quebec seperates, lets give them a parting gift, Ottawa. And if they don't want it, then we insist they take it as part of the terms of seperation.

I remember half-seriously thinking about this. After all, if Quebec were to separate, Ottawa would hardly be a good spot for a capital.

health is a provincial jurisdiction, if other provinces don't want to deal with those responsabilities, why should Quebec be punished?

why don't you bitch after your mp about that issue? why don't you call your premier and tell them that you want your province to have its own say about that issue!?!?

you guys aren't voicing your opinions, thus you loose.

We in Alberta do all the time actually. If there is one province that pushes for change more than Quebec its Alberta. Ask Canadians which province pushes the most for political reform its Alberta and we are hated for it.

But we are probably the most hated and feared province in Canada. Heck we are the big bad boogie man against Canadian Vlaues and is out to destoy everything that Canada stands for. For example look at the last election when Alberta was seen as hijacking Canadian Health Care and Martin jumped all over Klien's comments on some private health care delivery. All the media basically propigated this myth of Alberta being out to destory public health care when reality is Alberta spends more on health care per capita than all other provinces and has a lower than cdn average % of private health care delivery. I guess supporting public healthcare delivery by funding health care more than anyone else and having lower than the average % of private delivery makes you destroying Canadian public health care. Maybe we should cut our funding by 25%, cut salarys to nurses and doctors so that they leave Alberta in a move that NS and BC did and allow for more private delivery so that the Canadian media and other Canadians will see us as supporting the public health care system.

Then there is the Harper has a hidden agenda due to his Alberta firewall thing. Which if you actually read it is all about protecting Alberta from incursions by the federal government into provincial jurisdictions. Alberta could pull out of the Canada Pension Plan to the benefit of Albertan's as the money would stay in Alberta and the overall payments would be lower as Alberta has a younger population than the other 9 provinces. Then there is the Provincial Police which is the same as Quebec and Ontario do. All of the firewall issues are done elsewhere in Canada but no other province gets slagged for it like Alberta does.

Then there is the Alberta and Albertans are greedy. Well if thats the case then how come the province that sends the most per capita to the rest of Canada is Alberta.

Then there is the Alberta is a bunch of red neck racist white guys. Then when you look at it, 20% of the population of Alberta is minorities (yes it may not be the 50% of Toronto but that does not mean its KKK country as its basically portrayed) and Both Edmonton and Calgary have a higher percentage of minorities than Montreal.

Reality is the media is really kinda messed and like to send stereoypes rather than give the facts as its easier since you dont have to look up anything.

Now that I am done responding to Malek's comments. I will respond to the Quebec seperation thing. Quebecers would be stupid to seperate and Canadians would be stupid to toss them out of Canada. Reality is we are more than the sum of our parts. There is an inherant value of being Canada that we all seem to miss when we are looking at it from a regional or provincial view. Sure as an Albertan we would be able to keep billions in Alberta that currently go to other provinces and sure Quebec recieves billions. But if we get to a bargining table. Would Quebec and its 7.5 million or economic power of $216 billion gdp get as much attention as Canada which represents 32 million people or over 1 trillion gdp. Not likely let alone Alberta with its 3.2 million and $186 billion gdp. Think of the EU. They now have one currency, and ease of transport etc. This is something that has done wonders for the EU. Sure some things suffered but at the end of the day they all benefit from it. If there was no value to the EU then it would never have happened. Thus there is value to being a union that as individual provinces will never have even if they were on their own.

Blame Ottawa!

Yeah, I think we can all agree that the feds have caused national unity to plumet to where it is today.

I pretty much totally agree with SsiGuy on this.

Second that. We need a federal party that doesn't cater to Quebec.

Big W: I know about Alberta, but thats recent, let say 10 years without going into details? What about the other provinces? wouldn't you agree that they follow Ottawa like a dog follows his master?

Your GNP numbers are a bit off btw, and your visible minorities in Montreal too :) but its all good.

In Canada, Quebec is the spoiled kid and Alberta is the whipping boy.
I am the first to admit that Alberta is very over-generalized but stereotypes don't come from nowhere.
It has, by far, Canada's most viligant right-wing christian conservative vote. Alberta is the only major province left to not have same-sex marriage. Alberta constistently votes conservative/alliance. It really is Canada's Texas, although I am NOT saying it is anywhere as red-neck as Texas.
Alberta is not as tolerant or socially progressive as most of the rest of the country. To have a minimum wage of just $5.86/hr is offensive in such a weealthy province.

Big W: I know about Alberta, but thats recent, let say 10 years without going into details? What about the other provinces? wouldn't you agree that they follow Ottawa like a dog follows his master?

Your GNP numbers are a bit off btw, and your visible minorities in Montreal too :) but its all good.

Actually the NEP was in 1982 so its more than 10 years.

In Canada, Quebec is the spoiled kid and Alberta is the whipping boy.
I am the first to admit that Alberta is very over-generalized but stereotypes don't come from nowhere.
It has, by far, Canada's most viligant right-wing christian conservative vote. Alberta is the only major province left to not have same-sex marriage. Alberta constistently votes conservative/alliance. It really is Canada's Texas, although I am NOT saying it is anywhere as red-neck as Texas.
Alberta is not as tolerant or socially progressive as most of the rest of the country. To have a minimum wage of just $5.86/hr is offensive in such a weealthy province.

Actually a min wage is bad economically speaking. See what works for Toronto may not work for Northbay, yet the whole province has to deal with it.

But a minimum wage does reflect how the govt thinks the wealth should be distributed and make sure that all benefit from Alberta's boom.

I don't want to kick Quebec out of Canada - because it would really hurt my foot. ;)

Not all is doom and gloom! I for one think Canada is perfect as it is! I love Quebec I have been to Montreal and Quebec city wish I could have seen more!
I think people have been dwelling on the negative in this post! Suppose Quebec is to Separate then the people of Quebec will have voted for this! So they are happy! Then there would be a major migration of people from Quebec to other parts of Canada! Maybe the Atlantic provinces could cash in on this places such as New Brunswick would get a bit of a boom from the population moving to there province also cities like Toronto Edmonton Calgary and Vancouver who are in need of workers would also do well!
So both would be satisfied Quebec would be a country and the rest of Canada would gain in a great work base!

But a minimum wage does reflect how the govt thinks the wealth should be distributed and make sure that all benefit from Alberta's boom.

Meh, the government-set minimum wage means nothing. The market-driven minimum realistically floats around $7.30 an hour. The only ones lower than that (which immediately come to mind) are part-time fast food jobs. I can only think of a single employer that actually pays minimum wage (the local famous players) and they give lots of benefits to their employees, like cheap popcorn (free if you work late shifts, one of my friends came to school once a few years ago, holding a garbage bag of cold popcorn...) and free movie passes (per paycheck of course).

Heck, I've been working for two years at the grocery store I'm at, and I'll be making around $9.30 an hour soon...it's not hard to find higher paying jobs too...

Big W: That was a great post, simply outstanding, not much more to say there...

Reality is we are more than the sum of our parts. There is an inherant value of being Canada that we all seem to miss when we are looking at it from a regional or provincial view.

couldn't of said it better myself.

Really, what a load of B/S. Under that theory, it would be better to merge with the america, because "Reality is we are more than the sum of our parts". When do we say stop, the parts are more then the sum.

Really, what a load of B/S. Under that theory, it would be better to merge with the america, because "Reality is we are more than the sum of our parts". When do we say stop, the parts are more then the sum.

nuts to you, mr. grumpypants

these philosophical buzz phrases are nothing more than years of progroganda, thanks to the CBC/educational system. In reality, each province, state, groups push to get whatever they can, regardless of the effect on others, and the overall well being of the country. our politicians are short term motivated and would rather set policies to get re-elected as oppose to doing the right things.

each province, state, groups push to get whatever they can, regardless of the effect on others, and the overall well being of the country. our politicians are short term motivated and would rather set policies to get re-elected as oppose to doing the right things.

You've just summed up the history of Canadian politics, and polititians in general. :)

But a minimum wage does reflect how the govt thinks the wealth should be distributed and make sure that all benefit from Alberta's boom.

Given Alberta's high demand for employees, I doubt any company will pay minimum wage. ;)

Really, what a load of B/S. Under that theory, it would be better to merge with the america, because "Reality is we are more than the sum of our parts". When do we say stop, the parts are more then the sum.

Well economically speaking, customs union makes sence for both countries. That way we get rid of the border tie ups etc and allow for greater ability for movement of goods and services. However I would not advocate monetary union as currently economically speaking it is in Canada's best intrest to set our own intrest rates etc. Reason it would be very hard to tell the US your spending too much or your deficit is too high and make them follow. Thus not a good idea. However the customs union similar to what they have in the EU is good economically speaking.

Big W:

Your GNP numbers are a bit off btw, and your visible minorities in Montreal too :) but its all good.

http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/demo53e.htm
http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/demo41e.htm

Edmonton in 2001
total - 927,020
visible - 135,770
aboriginal - 40,930
minorities - 176,700

% minorities in Edmonton - 19.06
% of minorites not including aboriginals - 14.65

Calgary in 2001
total - 943,310
visable - 164,900
aboriginal - 21,915
minorities - 186,815

% minorities in Calgary - 19.80
% of minorites not including aboriginals - 17.48

http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/demo53b.htm
http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/demo41b.htm

Montreal in 2001
total - 3,380,645
visable - 458,330
aboriginal - 11,085
minorities - 469,415

% minorities in Montreal - 13.89
% of minorities not including aboriginals - 13.56

As I said the minorities as a % of population in the Alberta cities is 20% (well pretty much that) and they both have a higher percentage than Montreal.

For some reason Stats Can seperates aboriginals into thier own group. But they are a minority. Thus if you want to count them or not Edmonton and Calgary both have a higher percentage of minorites than Montreal.

Now the economy portion

http://www.rbc.com/economics/market/pdf/provfcst.pdf

I said Alberta's Nominal GDP was $186.18 billion and that is the 2004 number. However Quebecs 2004 number is wrong its actually $265.58 billion. So I did make an error in the Quebec number.

I don't want to Quebec to leave. What would be great is if we could have some kind of political association. Yes, Quebec can do her own thing {with only her own money} but they would agree to have the feds deal with the military, foreign affairs, coast guard, international trade and relations, foreign aid, the Charter of Rights, penal and legal system {that is already in fed juristiction ie murder, etc..the big stuff}, international monetary fund, the dollar, the TCH, the ports, immigration.
All the stuff that is strickly national in nature.
The rest, they can collect their own taxes, own cultural affairs, education, universities, social welfare, healthcare. The stuff that they already have some control over {as do all the provinces} but no transfers. You get to create and receive your own taxes and spend it as you like........except a percentage {24%} of national needs for the feds for the things I mentioned that are strickly federal.
Total political dependence on Canada but your own money and internal laws to do with as you please. They would have their own small umbrella under the larger Canadian one BUT with one priveso...........no more separation.
By agreeing to this it will now become illegal for ANY province to succeed from the nation. Case closed. Even separatist parties, and there are many all across the nation, would be illegal as they are in France.
Thoughts?

I don't want to Quebec to leave. What would be great is if we could have some kind of political association. Yes, Quebec can do her own thing {with only her own money} but they would agree to have the feds deal with the military, foreign affairs, coast guard, international trade and relations, foreign aid, the Charter of Rights, penal and legal system {that is already in fed juristiction ie murder, etc..the big stuff}, international monetary fund, the dollar, the TCH, the ports, immigration.
All the stuff that is strickly national in nature.
The rest, they can collect their own taxes, own cultural affairs, education, universities, social welfare, healthcare. The stuff that they already have some control over {as do all the provinces} but no transfers. You get to create and receive your own taxes and spend it as you like........except a percentage {24%} of national needs for the feds for the things I mentioned that are strickly federal.
Total political dependence on Canada but your own money and internal laws to do with as you please. They would have their own small umbrella under the larger Canadian one BUT with one priveso...........no more separation.
By agreeing to this it will now become illegal for ANY province to succeed from the nation. Case closed. Even separatist parties, and there are many all across the nation, would be illegal as they are in France.
Thoughts?

I think that that's pretty much what we have as it stands with the exception of the transfer payments. Of course, at that point, it becomes kind of pointless to even consider themselves Canadians at all. I understand where you're coming from (I think you're basically saying that a compromise is in order but correct me if I'm wrong) but with that scheme it doesn't really make much difference if they are considered a part of Canada or not. In fact, I can still see the whining on both sides because the Quebecois will feel that they are held underfoot by an essentially foreign country and therefore at it's whims while the rest of Canada would want to know what reason we have for involving ourselves with a state that doesn't want to defend Canada's interests but we nevertheless govern.

I think that if it came right down to it the best way is to say "Bon voyage" on both sides and be done with the matter. But that's just my opinion.

I think that that's pretty much what we have as it stands with the exception of the transfer payments. Of course, at that point, it becomes kind of pointless to even consider themselves Canadians at all. I understand where you're coming from (I think you're basically saying that a compromise is in order but correct me if I'm wrong) but with that scheme it doesn't really make much difference if they are considered a part of Canada or not. In fact, I can still see the whining on both sides because the Quebecois will feel that they are held underfoot by an essentially foreign country and therefore at it's whims while the rest of Canada would want to know what reason we have for involving ourselves with a state that doesn't want to defend Canada's interests but we nevertheless govern.

I think that if it came right down to it the best way is to say "Bon voyage" on both sides and be done with the matter. But that's just my opinion.

Indeed, that is a problem with a scheme like that -- Canada becomes a tool of convenience, although I think you are correct in that it is already just that to Quebec.

On the other hand, if Quebec separates, I can actually see Canada accepting some sort of loose economic and political union with a newly sovereign Quebec, even though such a decision would unquestionably be widely unpopular...

On the other hand, if Quebec separates, I can actually see Canada accepting some sort of loose economic and political union with a newly sovereign Quebec, even though such a decision would unquestionably be widely unpopular...
I agree with you there in that I don't buy this idea that we as Canadians are going to hold it against Quebec and do our best to prove how right we were about the economics of seperation. Money is still money and business is still business. As such, if Canadians have a stake in Quebec somewhere, they'll want to see it protected. Even with that provision however, I'm still sure as a layman can be that in the event secession, Quebec will indeed see the economic floor drop out from under itself. The best scenario would be one where regional headquarters' of Canadian companies downsize to serve the Quebec market only. Atlantic Canada would probably see alot of jobs head their way in that case.

You suggest essentially most-favoured-nation economic policy in regards to Quebec and I believe you are correct. Not sure about the Loonie's usage and such but I kinda doubt Quebec would be given the option to use Canadian currency or passports for example.

It's the little things that make the grudge.... :lol:

It's neat that a few people crapped on what I said, And the ones who say they dont know what this " Asian " is , are beeing picky . I think everyone with a little brain power knew I was speaking about people who are from Japan or China , etc. And to say that Quebec does not remind us all the time that they are different is in correct . I do like Quebec , I dont have a problem with french people . I think Canada should be a fair place where if we have French on our products then you should have English on yours, fair right.To say thats not exceptable is to say that you feel you are better then all the rest of Canada , and then who would be the stupid one? The signs by the way ? I cant remember where they were . Sorry it took so long to defend my self . Thanks to those who understood me.

Quebec would get political certainty, no excuduce of people as in the same country. They would take over their own nation. They would have our dollar and national stature. They would be their own nation but larger umbrella.
We get no transfer payments, a stronger economy by finally putting this to rest, and above all the issue would be dead....no more blackmail from one province.
If they don't agree with this they have the right to say no and take their chances and they would pay the price.

The issue will never be dead. Even if Quebec were to become a new country, they would start arguing about tariffs, immigration rules, customs, security, etc, etc, etc.

Whatever. Quebec is not some backwards country that would just implode if there are political changes. And that is the impression I get by reading your posts. There are big Quebec companies that are not going anywhere: Bombardier, Quebecor, Cascadia, Videotron, Hydro, ect. English will leave? Another fantasy. They started leaving in 70's and 80's after PQ election and first referendum. Tens of thousands of Montrealers moved down 401, there is about half a million ex-Montrealers in Hogtown. Those that have stayed behind did so because they choose to live in a French city and have adapted to it. The head offices leaving? They too have left a long time ago; Toronto's growth over the last decades is due to in large part to the shift of the service and banking sector from Montreal down 401. Companies owned by English Canadians have left but those in the hands of Quebecois have taken their place. That transition took some time but it is now complete. Don`t worry about Quebec, there will be definitely be some anger from the rest of Canada but things will quickly return back to normal.

Salut

There can be no doubt that if Quebec were to separate, 100% of the large corporations that wanted to maintain their head office in Canada would have to move their operations out of Quebec to Canada.

Without the support of the Canadian taxpayer, companies like Bombarier would go broke. Have you any idea how much that company has been subsidized by the Canadian Government?

Why is it that the 'SEEPARRRRATEESTS' never show they have any common sense?

Whatever. Quebec is not some backwards country that would just implode if there are political changes. And that is the impression I get by reading your posts. There are big Quebec companies that are not going anywhere: Bombardier, Quebecor, Cascadia, Videotron, Hydro, ect. English will leave? Another fantasy. They started leaving in 70's and 80's after PQ election and first referendum. Tens of thousands of Montrealers moved down 401, there is about half a million ex-Montrealers in Hogtown. Those that have stayed behind did so because they choose to live in a French city and have adapted to it. The head offices leaving? They too have left a long time ago; Toronto's growth over the last decades is due to in large part to the shift of the service and banking sector from Montreal down 401. Companies owned by English Canadians have left but those in the hands of Quebecois have taken their place. That transition took some time but it is now complete. Don`t worry about Quebec, there will be definitely be some anger from the rest of Canada but things will quickly return back to normal.

Salut

it's a good thing we built that 401, eh?

just joking :)

The separatist would like nothing more then to ethnically cleanse
Montreal. That way they don’t have to worry about that
damn ethnic vote. It is not surprising that the separatists
would love the 401.

The separatists believe Canada is not a real country because
Canadians are not all the same race.

The separatist would like nothing more then to ethnically cleanse
Montreal. That way they don’t have to worry about that
damn ethnic vote. It is not surprising that the separatists
would love the 401.

The separatists believe Canada is not a real country because
Canadians are not all the same race.

Jasonhouse,(or any other Mod)

what are you waiting for to ban this guy!

Some people are actually trying to have a decent(and respectful conversation here) and when we're talking about Québec and separation its never an easy thing. Why do you let this guy on the boards...all he's done is spewed crap from his mouth about Québec and Quebeckers. Calling us Rascists and talking about ethnic cleansing.

He obviously doesn't know what he's talking about, but i don't see why we should have to take his shit!

Back to the topic...

well,well,well!

Interesting comments. All of you who are sick and tired of Québec should all vote for the Conservatives. Once they are in power, they'll probably ignore québec, and we'll finally vote for seperation. And that'll be the end of that!

Why should I be banned?
Do you see me as the “Money and ethnic vote”?

LOL. "Money .. " was funny. but I don't agree with your other comment.

Quebecers are not racist. You might not believe this
but Quebecers can be any race.
It is only the separatists that are racist.
The separatist should be banned.

I think Mr. Ping is talking about the absolute worst seperatists.. Jacques Parizeau comes to mind.

Jacques Parizeau is the fat headed separatist that said
“money and ethnic vote” as the reason he lost the
1995 sovereignty referendum.

The separatist would like nothing more then to ethnically cleanse
Montreal. That way they don’t have to worry about that
damn ethnic vote. It is not surprising that the separatists
would love the 401.

The separatists believe Canada is not a real country because
Canadians are not all the same race.

If you really want to see ethnic cleasing go to Rwanda and Bosnia.

What the fuck does the race have to go with anything? Good damn, what a freaken moron!

Jacques Parizeau is the fat headed separatist that said
“money and ethnic vote” as the reason he lost the
1995 sovereignty referendum.

Guess what, the fat bastard was right. Sponsorship scandal did reveal the personal networks in Liberal Party that channeled taxpayers money into no side, mind you the PQ did the same but their budget was much smaller. And the ethinc vote was mostly for the federal side so there you go ... What Parizeau said would not cause a stir only Canadians are so damn politically correct that he was chastized for it.

double post
sorry

There can be no doubt that if Quebec were to separate, 100% of the large corporations that wanted to maintain their head office in Canada would have to move their operations out of Quebec to Canada.

Unless there will be a communist or facist regime that will force the English companies to move all their offices to Toronto nothing will change. Business will be located where the taxes are lowest, eductated employees are available and cost of doing business minimal. Montreal does have all these qualities and many more.


Without the support of the Canadian taxpayer, companies like Bombarier would go broke. Have you any idea how much that company has been subsidized by the Canadian Government?


A lot of companies in other provinces have subsides and special tax breaks. Quebec is no different. Actually the biggest subsidy (about 300 million CAN$) for the new jet comes from the British govnt since the wings will be tested and manufactured in Belfast.

Racist separatist stoned elderly Mohawks and
the Surete stood by and watched.

http://www.bcgreen.com/~samuel/lubicon/1990/OKA0921.txt

How much more evidence do you need.

Racist separatist stoned elderly Mohawks and
the Surete stood by and watched.

http://www.bcgreen.com/~samuel/lubicon/1990/OKA0921.txt

How much more evidence do you need.

Oh please. You can find some embarassing news about any political/racial/sexual/ect group if you try hard enough. It does not bring anything to the discussion.

Hey habsfan, I don’t understand why you want me banned?

Your mamma loves it when I post on her forum.
:)

Hey habsfan, I don’t understand why you want me banned?

Your mamma loves it when I post on her forum.
:)

Habsfan is a cool mofo, his and Serge Lacasse posts are the reason why the Quebec section on skyscraperpage.com is top notch. He the man!

What the fuck does the race have to go with anything? Good damn, what a freaken moron!

Well maybe you just haven't been around long enough - unlike me. Quebec separatist is 100% about racism, plain and simple.

Unless there will be a communist or facist regime that will force the English companies to move all their offices to Toronto nothing will change. Business will be located where the taxes are lowest, eductated employees are available and cost of doing business minimal. Montreal does have all these qualities and many more.

Well duh??? The Canadian head office of a company can't operate in a foreign country, or it wouldn't be the Canadian head office - that is common sense.

Well maybe you just haven't been around long enough - like me. Quebec separatist is 100% about racism, plain and simple.

I presume you lived in Quebec, read LaPresse or Journal de Montreal, listen to TVA or Radio-Canada, listen to Jeff Fillion or Andre Arthur on daily basis? If not there is not much you can say about the Quebec politics or Quebec life in general cause the english media does not cover it in detail.

There are some radicals in Quebec that shoot themselves in the foot anytime they open their mouths - people in Saint Jean Baptiste movement are propable the most intellectually challenged, but they are a minority which is load but laughable.

The separatists support ONLY the French language
and French culture. Any other language or culture
means nothing to them.

I presume you lived in Quebec, read LaPresse or Journal de Montreal, listen to TVA or Radio-Canada, listen to Jeff Fillion or Andre Arthur on daily basis? If not there is not much you can say about the Quebec politics or Quebec life in general cause the english media does not cover it in detail.

I see Quebec from outside the tiny bubble that you think is reality.

I have never laid an egg, but that doesn't mean I know less about it than a chicken.

You better make sure you’re of pure French stock
before you side with the separatist.
They will throw rocks at your head.

Well duh??? The Canadian head office of a company can't operate in a foreign country, or it wouldn't be the Canadian head office - that is common sense.

I wrote before that Canadian companies owned by wasps have already moved to TO. Some have stayed behind but they are a minority. Those that make Montreal their home are mostly owned by Quebecois.

When you say Canadian company surely mean the company whose majority stock owners are Canadians and not Quebecers. I repeat: those companies are already paying taxes to Queen's Park.

I see Quebec from outside the tiny bubble that you think is reality.

I have never laid an egg, but that doesn't mean I know less about it than a chicken.

I lived for seven years in fucken Quebec, don't remember living in no bubble ;)

I wrote before that Canadian companies owned by wasps have already moved to TO. Some have stayed behind but they are a minority. Those that make Montreal their home are mostly owned by Quebecois.

When you say Canadian company surely mean the company whose majority stock owners are Canadians and not Quebecers. I repeat: those companies are already paying taxes to Queen's Park.

The Bank of Montreal, CN and many other companies would have to move most of their head office operations to Canada, because that is where most of their business is. That would occur even if 100 % of the shareholders were Quebecois.

Y'know, I rather think I'm starting to like this idea, too.

I WANNA ANNEX THE ATLANTIC PROVINCES!!!!!!!!

:D :runaway:

I would like to say throwing rocks at kids and the elderly is something
a distinct society would do, but I can’t. There are far too many societies
this happens. Places you wouldn’t want to go unless you’re the master race.

The separatists believe the Mohawks don’t have a say in separation.
They have no more right to the land than the squirrels in the trees.

May anyone who picked up a rock, forever rot.

Y'know, I rather think I'm starting to like this idea, too.

I WANNA ANNEX THE ATLANTIC PROVINCES!!!!!!!!

:D :runaway:

Why not Quebec? We'll give you Quebec as a birthday present so we won't have to deal with those annoying separatists. :D

lol, i'd love to see quebec seperate.

then alberta can do the same and possibly be the richest country/peoples on earth.

actually, i always thought a bc/alberta/saskatchewan/manitoba/yukon (and maybe NWT/nunavut) would be a pretty kick ass country.

but in the end, i still love the united canada more.

then alberta can do the same and possibly be the richest country/peoples on earth.

No, you see we want to annex Alberta, too.

:D :runaway:

I actually happen to be born there, and without moving into a completely indepth look, I will say a number of things are different with Canada. For those that don't care, skip to the next quote...

#1: Yugoslavia was made up of a number of different nationalities which has regional minorities, but were very rarely mixed.
#2: In addition to the Yugoslavian union being relatively young, most of the nationalities had bloody histories between each other long before the 1991-1995 wars. This didn't just happen out of nowhere.
#3: The support for separation was much higher in many provinces (actually republics); it wasn't just one province that seriously wanted to separate, it was 4 of them. In comparison, support for separation outside of Quebec is usually around 1-2%.
#4: This one is the key -- while the reasons for separation were definetely partly nationalist, they were also economic. Yugoslavia had a very similar equalization program which sapped from haves (Croatia and Slovenia) to have nots (everyone else). Here's the kicker: after the fall of communism, the debt forced Yugoslavia into BANKRUPCY, making the decision to separate all that much easier.

Croatia and Slovenia wanted to leave to save their economies, as well as to have their own countries. Bosnia and Macedonia followed as there were no scraps for them to get from elsewhere, and the economic structure, along with the national sentiment, made separation seem like a good deal. In the end, little worked out the way it was supposed to. But economic considerations are definetely important, and even nations that have no bad blood between them, but have economic problems, can develop hostilities between each other. The war is, in fact, no mystery, and while nationality is seen as #1 when reporting about Yugoslavia, it means nothing without looking at the economic situation of the country before separation (as mentioned, bankrupcy + the economic structure).

In fact, the Canadian situation is not very similar to Yugoslavia at all: most people in provinces have their voice, but aren't more nationalist about their province than the country -- the exception being Quebec. The economy of Canada is nowhere near bankrupcy. Furthermore, in Canada, Quebec is not a have province by any means. If we are to take the Yugoslavian scenario, it would be Ontario and Alberta that would wish to separate, but not Quebec.. Here, Quebec wishes to separate for almost entirely nationalist reasons.

Quebec's demands for an equal parts confederation between anglophone Canada (9/10 provinces [NB counted, although it is a billingual province]) and francophone Canada (1/10 provinces) is wholly unrealistic. Its demands for complete decentralization make Canada nothing more than a tool of convenience -- it can be despised and ignored 99% of the time, but the passport and the Canadian $ is nice to have. No thanks...

.


Independently of the reasons of separation (economic or nacionality), separation is sinonym of "inestability", "don't know what will happen", "emigration", "some important compagnys living", etc.

Who had an idea that there would be a war in Yugoslavia for so many years?
In 2002 I visited Zagreb (Croatia) and Ljbjiana (Slovenia). I remember asking to the people (specially in Croatia) if they were happy to be an independent country. The majority said "yes" because they had always felt more croatian than yugoslavian. Then when I asked them if they were glad of all what had happened and if it had been worth it (war included), their answer was "No".

What I mean is that if you are quebecer, you have a stable job, your kids go to school, you own a house, YOU LIVE IN FREEDOM AND PEACE (which is not common in all the countries), and you know only 40% of the people of your province really want to separate, why take all those risks?

We (quebecers) know that with separation, we have a lot to lose, but don't know how much to win... Is it worth it to take the risk only with 50-55% of the population voting "yes" to a "not clear" question, and not really knowing what the future will be?

Well, personally I think apart from losing a fair bit of pride (no longer second largest country in the world, the loss of being a billingual country in NA [although NB still would be], the loss to total, although not per capita GDP), things might indeed be better. Quebec has been a stagnant economy for many years, and it seems fine with that. I don't have a big problem with equalization, but if Quebec doesn't want the money, I think we'll gladly take it back.

And, of course, the dynamic of the House of Commons would greatly change, likely for the better. It would likely represent the country better, as the Bloc has managed to hijack many an issue. I'm tired of that two-faced party in general. On the one hand it claims to be about as left as NDP (with an obviously important regional and separatist bias), but protests the infusion of money into education, environment, etc. -- all things they should at least somewhat support. Bleh.

.


You see, those are your predictions, I have mines, every canadian has his...
why? because if Quebec separates we don't know what will happen. Is not a simple question.

"he economy will go down for some years and then return back has it is today".. How can you know this??? Who though 40 years ago that Argentina would become a "third world country"?
Argentina was the richest country in the world around 1900, has lots of land and natural ressources, etc. and today, 100 years later, 40% of their population are starving... Who could predict this?

Why take the risk?

It probably wouldn't be great for Quebec or for Canada at first. Both economies would suffer (although Quebec definetely more so), and the instability wouldn't be good. But you know, maybe it's better, than same crap every 15 years. Holding the ROC hostage like that is hardly a great alternative, and I'm sure economies outside of Quebec are hurt by the impact too. So, maybe it is better to settle it once and for all. And 'once and for all' can only result in separation, because when separatists are defeated they're allowed to go back to the drawing board, and do it all again in a decade and a half. That's the real disaster.

Quebec is almost 30% of the territory of Canada, 25% of its population...are you really sure Canada would continue being the same without Quebec?

Will the rest of Canada wan't to have the Maritim provinces with a different country called Quebec between them and the rest of Canada?
And the economy? And separation of territories inside of Quebec? Inestability...

Separation of Quebec with 50%-60% max. of people wanting would be a disaster for Quebec, but we also can't tell what will happen to the rest of Canada after that.

He did mention that both economies will suffer.

A map of Canada would be a bitch to draw without Quebec XD.

No, you see we want to annex Alberta, too.

:D :runaway:

Quebec should be enough to satifsy the US for a long time, lol. :D

You guys get to play command and conquer with the separatists now. :) Yippy! ~

He did mention that both economies will suffer.

Maybe for a short while... but it's not like Canada is reliant on Quebec.

A map of Canada would be a bitch to draw without Quebec XD.

lol.

Once Quebec is willing to assume its share of the National debt, allows the natives to chose their own soverignty, and Canada does not have to provide Quebec with anything (extra money, defense, common currency, etc.), then I'm perfectly fine with them leaving. And BTW, they get Ottawa as a house-warming gift.

economies won't suffer that much if there's good will between the two parties to separate in a friendly and cooperative way.

^^^^^^^There won't be. Quebecers seem to have this idea that Canadians will be in a forgiving mood. They won't be.

^Man you are in such denial. It is so obvious that the economic loser in this case is Quebec. There is no way whatsoever that Quebec is going to walk away with any chance of being as wealthy after seperation as before. And if the day ever comes that it does somehow manage to get back on it's feet I'll bet that you'll be long dead of old age.

EDIT: We posted at the same time there. It's meant for Malek of course.

^^^^^^^There won't be. Quebecers seem to have this idea that Canadians will be in a forgiving mood. They won't be.

Not only would I be unforgiving, I would be angry... angry. :bash:

If Quebec were to separate, French would be wiped out beyond Quebec's borders. You see, most of us in Canada will get along rather nicely without French on packaging... and a lot less French taught in our schools or available to obtain Government services. Plus, the Quebecois would have to speak a lot more English if they wanted to survive economically in a continent no longer willing to put up with their bull shit.

Quebec should be enough to satifsy the US for a long time, lol. :D

You guys get to play command and conquer with the separatists now. :) Yippy! ~
We don't want Quebec. :bleep: :bash:

We want the Maritimes! And Alberta! :bleep:

Why?

Because Quebec has no oil! That's why! :bash: :runaway:

Because Quebec has no oil! That's why! :bash: :runaway:

how do you know ;)

I doubt that the Quebec economy would suffer that much. Quebec would be in the NAFTA i pressume, and they should be wise enough to have open borders and all. It would be a modern country with good infrastructure etc etc, no different from any other western country. I can't really see why an independent Quebec would be such an obstacle for companies, I don't think they would just all leave right away if Quebec would become a country! I'm from Holland, Germany is 10 km from where i live, belgium 20 km. Alot of companies in my city employ lots of germans, and that doesn't seem to be a problem. Shell is a Dutch/British oil company, Corus is a Dutch/British steel producer, KLM-Air France are Dutch/French, P&O Neddloyd is a Dutch/British container shipping company etc etc. Why couldn't a company be Canadian/Quebecois? I think too much importance is put on borders by some of you guys!
And the Quebecois would have to face the fact that they can't survive without speaking english...It is the trade language of the world after all, and what's wrong with speaking english as a 2nd language, you'll only use if for your work anyway, not for your personal or cultural life! I wonder what would happen to cities like Hull though, as far as i know alot of people there are employees of the Canadian gvt right? They'd have somre serious job losses there i can imagine! And as said before, the Canadian map would be ruined by an independent Quebec lol! The atlantic provinces, ontario and the western provinces should also become independent :) !

The irony of this whole issue is that no province benefits as much from Confederation as Quebec.

^^^^Very true!!!
Quebec will be able to enter NAFTA but on Canada's terms. The US, Mexico and Canada have to agree to new members.
Quebec"s population will shrink and mostly from wealthy Anglo/allophones on Montreal's west side.
The population and economy will shrink leaving Quebec to pay its portion of the federal debt {they have already agreed to this} and their provincial debt which is the 2nd highest in the country per-capita in the country, with a smaller economy, and no transfer payments. It will kill her and raising taxes will not be an option as taxes are very high in Quebec interms of the other provinces.
Quebec and Quebecers are going to get more than she bargained for and will have to, in the midst of all of this, try to get her own currency on the markets and due to Quebec's lower income it isn't going to be worth shit.

And the Quebecois would have to face the fact that they can't survive without speaking english...It is the trade language of the world after all, and what's wrong with speaking english as a 2nd language, you'll only use if for your work anyway, not for your personal or cultural life! I wonder what would happen to cities like Hull though, as far as i know alot of people there are employees of the Canadian gvt right? They'd have somre serious job losses there i can imagine! And as said before, the Canadian map would be ruined by an independent Quebec lol! The atlantic provinces, ontario and the western provinces should also become independent :) !

Being bilingual or trilingual is an excellent thing, no one in Quebec will tell you the contrary.

The grudge Quebecois have/had is when an anglophone buisness owner forces his employees to speak english between themselves too and would display only in English. Walking in Montreal in the 50s you would never think you're in a city with over 80% of the people speaking french.

A more recent exemple is when CAE in Montreal would produce work documents only in english, many employees complained about this to the office de la langue francaise.

entering Nafta on Canada's terms?!? hehehe why? and why do you imply that Canada would punish Quebec? Why all these threats?

oceanmdx: actually atlantic provinces profit the most from the federation, don't lie.

^^^^^^^There won't be. Quebecers seem to have this idea that Canadians will be in a forgiving mood. They won't be.

I think they will be because both sides benefit from the trade. Trade between Ontario and Quebec was at 53 billion $ last year alone. This is North America - free trade will be maintained no matter what individuals think. Of course Canadians can always boycott Quebec products or not spend their vacations in Quebec.

No one needs to be in forgiving mood, please don't act like a bully. Quebecers want to have full control of their affairs with no federal intervention. That is the reason for their desire to form an independant country.

entering Nafta on Canada's terms?!? hehehe why? and why do you imply that Canada would punish Quebec? Why all these threats?

oceanmdx: actually atlantic provinces profit the most from the federation, don't lie.

All the members of NAFTA would have to agree on the terms, but everyone knows that Washington holds the power. Anyways, Quebec will be admitted as soon as possible as to not harm the economic relations.

For over a 100 years Quebec was submitted to the rest of Canada, now they're trying to buy it back.

If it wasn't for these arrogant and bullying individuals, Quebec would never leave.

Equalization Entitlements – (2005-06)
($ millions)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PEI NB NL NS MB QC BC SK Total
277 1,348 861 1,344 1,601 4,798 590 82 10,900
($ per capita)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1,996 1,793 1,668 1,432 1,359 632 139 83 -
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I strongly believe that equalization payments should be stopped and the scale of the federal government reduced. Why should Ontarians and Albertans send money to others? I think it makes certain regions too reliant on outside help and therefore less competitive.

Anyways, I would like to see how much taxes are send to Ottawa from Quebec and if the federal investments and equalization payments cover what is taken by the federals.

For over a 100 years Quebec was submitted to the rest of Canada, now they're trying to buy it back.

If it wasn't for these arrogant and bullying individuals, Quebec would never leave.

I am not sure what submitted means in your contest but it is true that the economical and legislative power in Quebec was in the hands of the anglophone minority who did nothing but to get richer and then send their money to Toronto. I don't blame them for it, the richer always exploit the poor. But the situation is different now so don't fall in the victimization trap that PQ uses to paint ROC as shit. There are arrogant and bullying individuals on both sides of the debate so don't generalize.

Quebec"s population will shrink and mostly from wealthy Anglo/allophones on Montreal's west side.

I think you overstimate the power of the anglophones in Quebec. There are not that many wealthy ones left really. Westmount is the richest neighbourhood in Canada but it is tiny and there are more francophones and allophones there than you might imagine.


The population and economy will shrink leaving Quebec to pay its portion of the federal debt {they have already agreed to this} and their provincial debt which is the 2nd highest in the country per-capita in the country, with a smaller economy, and no transfer payments. It will kill her and raising taxes will not be an option as taxes are very high in Quebec interms of the other provinces.

Population will not shrink much. Maybe in the first year or so but it should quickly pick up. Paying of the debt will be a problem but I doubt that the situation will look as bleak as you describe it.


Quebec and Quebecers are going to get more than she bargained for and will have to, in the midst of all of this, try to get her own currency on the markets and due to Quebec's lower income it isn't going to be worth shit.

Quebec will continue using Canadian currency, I am sure of that. Otherwise it would cause too much trade problems.

I can't help but get the impression that some non-quebec canadians here just want an independent quebec to fail... like they hold some kind of grudge against quebec and it's people... i honestly don't believe it's in the interest of the rest of canada or the us to have an economicaly weak independent quebec. it might be wise for quebec to have loose immegration laws when it would become independent, to cover up for the population decrease some of you are sure of will happen, and to attrack new human capital to the country. i'm sure alot of people from poorer countries, and even europe i dare say, would want to live in a country like that if it was easy to get immigration permission. and it would be their choise to live in a french speaking country, so there wouldnt be the trouble with immigrants not wanting to learn french.

But the situation is different now so don't fall in the victimization trap

I know that, its not the same anymore.

The debt issue is a bit complex, Quebec's share would be at around 126B$, part of the money that we send to Ottawa is used to service the debt.

By not sending the 41B$/year to Ottawa, we would service the debt the same way as they did, in the same proportions. We would also save on things that we pay for but don't get any services plus the fat overhead called Ottawa. We would have planned expenses and unplanned ones.

Sure we would loose tax money because some people will leave, but we would also save on things we pay for twice (many agencies exist on the provincial and federal levels).

At the end of the day, we will have full control of our resources and will blame only ourselves if things go wrong. The sovreignty issue asside, we will be able to focus on other things.

Some Canadian's are hard to follow. According to them, Quebec is so needy, dependent, a drain on Canada etc., then why wouldn't we do everything we could to ease them out of Canada? To protect Canada's territorial integrity on map? Canada doesn't function as a unified country with ever increasing asymmetrical federalism, the side deals and yes, the "bribes" for Quebec which still opts out of every single federal program, and this even under a provincial Liberal government!

Such issues as partition, having a land bridge to Atlantic Canada and the natives, economic retaliation is just so much a worst-case, red herring scenario to scare Quebec into staying in Canada to preserve Canada's fragile pride.

Regardless of some people's desire to punish Quebec in the event of separation, cooler heads must prevail for the sake of future relations, business and economics and we should all hope so and not just Quebec. Any hint of turmoil, civil unrest, trade disruption brought on by attempted partition or land grabs, trade wars etc. would be ruinous for Canada's economy as it would send Canada's dollar into the toilet and interest rates to the moon.

If everyone plays nice, going through Quebec to get to Atlantic Canada would be no more inconvenient than Americans getting to Alaska.

Regardless of some people's desire to punish Quebec in the event of separation, cooler heads must prevail for the sake of future relations, business and economics and we should all hope so and not just Quebec. Any hint of turmoil, civil unrest, trade disruption brought on by attempted partition or land grabs, trade wars etc. would be ruinous for Canada's economy as it would send Canada's dollar into the toilet and interest rates to the moon.

I don't think Quebec plays that big a role in Canada's economy though. Once Quebec separates, we should devote our energy and effort to US relations instead..and of course, to overseas markets like China or India. Wasting time to please Quebec is just a pure waste of time. Of course, we'll need to buff up the military to suppress Quebecois terrorists who wants to ruin Canada's economy;)

I can't help but get the impression that some non-quebec canadians here just want an independent quebec to fail... like they hold some kind of grudge against quebec and it's people... i honestly don't believe it's in the interest of the rest of canada or the us to have an economicaly weak independent quebec. it might be wise for quebec to have loose immegration laws when it would become independent, to cover up for the population decrease some of you are sure of will happen, and to attrack new human capital to the country. i'm sure alot of people from poorer countries, and even europe i dare say, would want to live in a country like that if it was easy to get immigration permission. and it would be their choise to live in a french speaking country, so there wouldnt be the trouble with immigrants not wanting to learn french.

The US would close the border if an independent Quebec loosened its immigration laws. The US does not like Canada’s current immigration laws. Quebec already gets to pick the immigrants it wants. No other province gets to do this.

Some Canadian's are hard to follow. According to them, Quebec is so needy, dependent, a drain on Canada etc., then why wouldn't we do everything we could to ease them out of Canada? To protect Canada's territorial integrity on map? Canada doesn't function as a unified country with ever increasing asymmetrical federalism, the side deals and yes, the "bribes" for Quebec which still opts out of every single federal program, and this even under a provincial Liberal government!

Such issues as partition, having a land bridge to Atlantic Canada and the natives, economic retaliation is just so much a worst-case, red herring scenario to scare Quebec into staying in Canada to preserve Canada's fragile pride.

Regardless of some people's desire to punish Quebec in the event of separation, cooler heads must prevail for the sake of future relations, business and economics and we should all hope so and not just Quebec. Any hint of turmoil, civil unrest, trade disruption brought on by attempted partition or land grabs, trade wars etc. would be ruinous for Canada's economy as it would send Canada's dollar into the toilet and interest rates to the moon.

If everyone plays nice, going through Quebec to get to Atlantic Canada would be no more inconvenient than Americans getting to Alaska.

:applause:

The US would close the border if an independent Quebec loosened its immigration laws. The US does not like Canada’s current immigration laws. Quebec already gets to pick the immigrants it wants. No other province gets to do this.

loosening doesn't mean accepting criminals and other scums.

it means, accepting more people willing to come over and start a new life, because there's a quota in effect right now. (i think the quota for 2005 is 45k/y)

rt_0891

With only a couple exceptions, every province trades more with the U.S. than the rest of Canada. In Quebecs case about a 2:1 ratio, and Ontario even higher. I don't think anyone can afford to be picky about their customers, though. Wouldn't we rather have them all if possible?

The ruin of Canada's economy would in fact be sending Canadian troops into Quebec in an attempted land grab. All the eyes of the world would be watching and waiting for a civil war.

The ruin of Canada's economy would in fact be sending Canadian troops into Quebec in an attempted land grab. All the eyes of the world would be watching and waiting for a civil war.

lol. Like that's going to ever happen.

rt_0891

With only a couple exceptions, every province trades more with the U.S. than the rest of Canada. In Quebecs case about a 2:1 ratio, and Ontario even higher. I don't think anyone can afford to be picky about their customers, though. Wouldn't we rather have them all if possible?

But we don't devote enough resources to woo markets that are helpful to our growth. Look at Australia, it's appealing to China and India, signing free trade agreements, agressively entering their markets. What have we done to enter China's market? Almost nothing, except for the occasional "TEAM Canada" visits to China. We're losing our competitive edge in these markets... & we've done nothing to stem the tide. Who cares about Quebec's 8 million customers, when China & India has hundreds of millions???

We as Canadians are too narrowminded, and have always almost focused exclusively on North America. We have to open our eyes and realize the full potential of globalization.

Food For Thought... who the hell cares about Quebec? ? ? Albertans realizes this fact, BCers realizes this fact, why haven't Ontarians accepted it yet???

what troops? :p

money sees no borders, doesn't speak any languages and speak them all at the same time.

buisness is buisness.