I just wonder, What will be housing prices in Quebec, if Quebec separate from Canada...?

I would think that they would plunge. Thats just an opinion thought.

Down ze drain

Fall at least 10%.... however it would be great for those who are renting. Montreal would be back to 95' apres-soverignty price levels.

Prices would be low enough for prospective buyers to snap up a lot of properties. Then, I would speculate and sell it when Quebec's real estate prices bounces back again. It will come back up after the initial fall... the question rather is when it will bounce back...

LOL, fall at least 10%? No shit. More like 40% +

Understand that prices in Alberta dropped about 33 % after the NEP - and took 10-15 years to recover.

lol. 40%+'s better for me, cheaper to buy. :D

And don't call me un-patriotic for supporting the real estate market of an Independent Quebec, in the end, it's all just business. ;)

lol. 40%+'s better for me, cheaper to buy. :D

And don't call me un-patriotic for supporting the real estate market of an Independent Quebec, in the end, it's all just business. ;)

The problem with your "better for me" theory is that it may take forever for Quebec prices to go back up. They don't have a lot of oil/gas you know. ;)

What kind of question is this? Most likely, it'll plunge.

The problem with your "better for me" theory is that it may take forever for Quebec prices to go back up. They don't have a lot of oil/gas you know. ;)

I'm sure the first plunge would be the market over-reacting.. and unless the PQ really suck at governing their own country, it will bounce back, though probably not up to historic highs or even up to today's pricing levels, lol..

In the end, I guess it will be mostly affected by the sheer number of English Quebecers leaving ...

They would plunge 30-40% for two reasons:
One, the economic receession that would grip Quebec for up to 3 years and the rersulting lower incomes and standard of living.
Two, the population will be falling and that means a massive glut of housing on the market. Great if you are a first time home buyer but if you own a home you will lose your shirt.

There is a 3rd huge reason (it happened in Alberta after the NEP) why prices would drop. The value of a lot of homes would be much less than the mortgage on the home, so people would walk into the bank and tell the manager, "look, here are the keys to my house". The bank then has to get rid of the house via auction. But who the hell would buy? What would stop houses from dropping even more than 50%?

Calgary area: A friend of mine had the opportunity to get a house that should have been worth around $200,000 at a bank auction for $104,000 - back in the 1980s. The bids were so low that the bank refused to sell. Then after about 3 months, my friend got a call from the bank asking him if he still wanted the house. He reluctantly had to say no thanks because he believed that he wouldn't be able to sell his own home (he couldn't carry them both)!!!!

a blimp in the long term prices

a blimp in the long term prices

Blimp? You mean like an airship? ;)

Blips can have a very long wavelength.

Not right away, but you'd be able to buy a Westmount manse for $200,000 (or would they switch to Francs:)?)

Drop like a whore at a gangbang.

Probably somewhere in the twenty to thirty percent range over the course of a couple years. Not being any sort of expert in the industry I can't really say of course but you don't need a degree to figure out that the exodus of Anglos and the economic uncertainty that sovereignty will bring will have a trememdous impact on the demand for housing (and all real estate for that matter in Quebec)

It will be more expensive to buy a house in Quebec because it will be hard to find somebody to build it.

But Quebec will never separate from the rest of Canada. Quebec belongs to all canadians and Canada will not be Canada without Quebec.

Blimp? You mean like an airship? ;)

Blips can have a very long wavelength.

It would probably be just a couple of years. I really don't care too much about the short term investors, but more of the actual regular homeowners.

All I know it that I'm planning to sell my house and move out of the province before the next provincial election. Hopefully before the mass exodus!

morons i tell you... morons.

morons i tell you... morons.

For once you're right Malek. You guys in Quebec are going to be so rich .... so rich that you'll have a Volkswagen in every household - just like the Germans were told about 70 years ago.

Morons I tell you .... morons - that's the part you got right.

^
It always seems like the people from The West seem to know the most and are the loudest about Quebec and its future.

This is a rediculous question to start with.

What would happen to the housing prices in Alberta if they couldnt suck the earth dry of oil?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^That is not a proper analogy. If Alberta runs out of oil or prices drop in half that is beyond the ability of Alberta to do anything about.
Quebec on the otherhand would be striclky a political decision. If there economy sinks it will be because of a CHOICE they made not a situatuion beyond their control.

That is not a proper analogy. If Alberta runs out of oil or prices drop in half that is beyond the ability of Alberta to do anything about.

exactly.

its a stupid analogy for a stupid question. I know the West is a couple hours behind but c'mon.

It will be more expensive to buy a house in Quebec because it will be hard to find somebody to build it.

But Quebec will never separate from the rest of Canada. Quebec belongs to all canadians and Canada will not be Canada without Quebec.
What ? It would be exactly the opposite. If there is a mass exodus of people obviously you'd have a glut of empty homes looking for buyers. And builders? They'd be lining up at your door at the first hint of you wanting to BUILD a new home since they wouldn't exactly be swamped with contracts while the existing housing stock sits empty.

^
It always seems like the people from The West seem to know the most and are the loudest about Quebec and its future.

This is a rediculous question to start with.

No, but apparently we are more aware of the economic consequences of seperation. We're really only pointing the insanely obvious here. But, for the record, I'm pretty sure that Ontario isn't really considered a part of Western Canada and since most of the Canadian forumers are from Ontario it's not really fair to pin this all on the west now is it?

I just notice that the majority of the antagonists or shitdisturbers on these threads are from AB and BC.

"antagonists or shitdisturbers "

You need to take a chill pill, there is nothing wrong with what people here are saying. By using those words, you are the one who is antagonising and shit-disturbing, not anyone else.

People will move out Quebec if it separates and housing prices will drop. Makes sense.

You need to take a chill pill, there is nothing wrong with what people here are saying.

and that is the problem of this board.

You guys bitch all the time, and if someone dares do the same at you guys, its not fair play.

Its always so wonderful to know that Albertans and BCeers know soooo much about Quebec, even more than Quebecers themselves. pity.

^
It always seems like the people from The West seem to know the most and are the loudest about Quebec and its future.


I'm from Ontario. :)

and that is the problem of this board.

You guys bitch all the time, and if someone dares do the same at you guys, its not fair play.

You guys are Canada's principal prima donnas - be honest.

Its always so wonderful to know that Albertans and BCeers know soooo much about Quebec, even more than Quebecers themselves. pity.

That's because we live outside the bubble you call reality.

You guys are Canada's principal prima donnas - be honest.

yeah we like to voice our opinions in this crumbling federal state, whats wrong with that?


That's because we live outside the bubble you call reality.

your reality not ours. :bash:

Nothing is wrong with voicing an opinion. Just be realistic about housing prices in Quebec should it separate. So what do you think would happen to housing prices in Quebec should this occur? I want to read what you think because I need a good chuckle right about now. ;)

I won't play your game, throwing out pct numbers like you guys have done has no merit.

No one here is either a specialist in this matter nor a prophet.

There will be an economic crisis in Quebec because of the uncertainty, but once these issues are cleared and people know what to expect, things will resolve. It will be buisness as usual.

But for me and many other like me, I will not be waiting around until things stabilize and business returns to normal, if it ever does.

Nothing will hold you anyways, you can leave whenever you want, you can leave now if you want too!

Heck a Million left in the 20s for the US, things have recovered greatly. Wouldn't you think?

If I could leave now I would, with out hesitation, but unfortunately life is not that simple. Something you will come to realize when you grow up.

And if you want to compare Montreal to similar sized cities in the US since the 20's, well, you may not like what you read.

I won't play your game, throwing out pct numbers like you guys have done has no merit.

LOL!!!! :) You bitch that you can't express your opinion on matters, then when invited to do just that, you refuse to say how much you think prices would decline.

There will be an economic crisis in Quebec because of the uncertainty, but once these issues are cleared and people know what to expect, things will resolve. It will be buisness as usual.

If it would be "business as usual", why separate in the first place? :bash:

If I could leave now I would, with out hesitation, but unfortunately life is not that simple. Something you will come to realize when you grow up.



Just why are you so eager to get out of Quebec?

I have lived here for 4 Years as well as a number of other cities around the world during my working life. As I have stated before, IMO, Montreal is an ugly, rundown, dirty place. It lacks world class developments. People are generally unfriendly and services and planning standards are 2nd rate. It care of the environment is abysmal and too many of its citizens rely on the Government for Welfare. The Public service is too large and inefficient and the Unions and other less legitimate organisations have to much power and influence. But mostly, the weather is crap! :)

So where would you move to?

LOL!!!! :) You bitch that you can't express your opinion on matters, then when invited to do just that, you refuse to say how much you think prices would decline.



If it would be "business as usual", why separate in the first place? :bash:

Throwing out numbers blindly is not an opinion in my book. Its speculation.

If you read carefully you can see that I did express my opinion.

In the long run, it will be better than buisness than usual because we will be able to control all of our monies, to spend in regards to our priorities and not have to deal with bitching and clueless people from the west.

Heck, we might even set an example good enough for other provinces to leave.

I have lived here for 4 Years as well as a number of other cities around the world during my working life. As I have stated before, IMO, Montreal is an ugly, rundown, dirty place. It lacks world class developments. People are generally unfriendly and services and planning standards are 2nd rate. It care of the environment is abysmal and too many of its citizens rely on the Government for Welfare. The Public service is too large and inefficient and the Unions and other less legitimate organisations have to much power and influence. But mostly, the weather is crap! :)

oh yeah i remember you now.

might be intresting to tell us a bit more about your background and these other cities you lived in. Where do you live in Montreal?

After all, its all Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

I'm not sure where Ill go, I'm pretty sure I wont stay in Canada. My options are Philadelphia, London England or Melbourne Australia.

I have previously lived and worked in Adelaide and Sydney Australia, London England and briefly in Amsterdam Holland, Biarritz France & Cairo Egypt.

My question to you malek, have you ever lived outside Montreal?

yes 7 years in Syria when I was a kid. I returned there last winter to refresh my memories. what a shock. ;)

does Laval counts? :p

Throwing out numbers blindly is not an opinion in my book. Its speculation.

If you read carefully you can see that I did express my opinion.

In the long run, it will be better than buisness than usual because we will be able to control all of our monies, to spend in regards to our priorities and not have to deal with bitching and clueless people from the west.

Heck, we might even set an example good enough for other provinces to leave.

Speculation is an opinion.

If Quebec were to go its own way, the bitching would only really get going. For example, do you think Quebec is divisible and why or why not?

I'm not sure where Ill go, I'm pretty sure I wont stay in Canada. My options are Philadelphia, London England or Melbourne Australia.
?


From that list I would definately pick Melbourne. Seriously, if you think Montreal is rundown, then why the heck would you consider Philly.

or London or almost every city of a certain size on the east coast!

haahaah he's just mad for some reason, not succesful with the local beauties I guess :p

Malek, Why do you need to resort to insults just because I have a different opinion about Montréal than you do? If you don't like to hear other opinions, I think you should stop visiting open forums.

Why Philly? Well Montreal should be a nice place to live if you are a student or a low income earner, however if you happen to earn what some might consider a high salary, then more than half of your wage goes to the government. IMO this is totally unfair. The US however, like to encourage high income earners and provide incentive via lower taxes. This and the fact that I have a job waiting for me there is reason enough.

Where would the boundary of a seceded Quebec lie? Surely the Canadian government wouldn't let them secede with its current frontiers, including Jamésie and Kativik?

Malek, Why do you need to resort to insults just because I have a different opinion about Montréal than you do? If you don't like to hear other opinions, I think you should stop visiting open forums.

Why Philly? Well Montreal should be a nice place to live if you are a student or a low income earner, however if you happen to earn what some might consider a high salary, then more than half of your wage goes to the government. IMO this is totally unfair. The US however, like to encourage high income earners and provide incentive via lower taxes. This and the fact that I have a job waiting for me there is reason enough.

you are right about the high taxation levels, if that and weather are your prime criteria, then yes its not ideal for you. You could go to the US somewhere in the south. I don't understand about London, don't they have similar taxation levels?

Keep in mind, that with the record deficits in the US, the low income taxes aren't sustainable. By some conservative calculations, they will either have to increase income taxes by 78%, or cut by half medical expenditure and by half the retirment pension plans to be able to eliminate the deficit.

P.S. Humour mustn't be your field, are you an accountant? ;)

Where would the boundary of a seceded Quebec lie? Surely the Canadian government wouldn't let them secede with its current frontiers, including Jamésie and Kativik?

they will be intact.

No way would the boundaries stay in tact. If Canada is so easily divisible so is Québec, which didn't even have the vast majority of its territory until 1912. The Inuit and Natives would definitely vote to stay within Canada, as would the Gatinois, and much of Montréal. Don't forget the Canadian government paid for the St. Lawrence Seaway, so Québec can say goodbye to that too. In return, Québec would receive its fair share of the Canadian debt.

they will be intact.


LOL!! Aren't you being hypocritical?

No way would the boundaries stay in tact. If Canada is so easily divisible so is Québec, which didn't even have the vast majority of its territory until 1912. The Inuit and Natives would definitely vote to stay within Canada, as would the Gatinois, and much of Montréal. Don't forget the Canadian government paid for the St. Lawrence Seaway, so Québec can say goodbye to that too. In return, Québec would receive its fair share of the Canadian debt.

The partitioning of Quebec would be a recipe for civil strife and poisioned relations forever. Just a handful of separatist hotheads could easily prevent a lasting peace if it means a Belfast situation with bombs in Toronto or Ottawa and damaged economies on both sides.

After losing a referendum, the rest of Canada would also have to get its act together as it would be dealing with issues of its own, probably including an election before deciding how to deal with the Quebec situation. Cooler heads would hopfully prevail for the sake of peace, futre relations and business so there wouldn't likely be a overly negative response from the rest of Canada let alone try an assume control over vast regions of Quebec. Not that we have the troops to occupy much of Quebec anyway...

Besides, if we trash Quebec's borders and economy and hurting our own at the same time, then we couldn't reasonably expect Quebec to pay up for its share of the debt and we'd have troubles of our own.

The Consitution gurantees a provinces borders. As long as Quebec is a part of Canada, there is no partitioning of Quebec, period. But if Quebec declares unilateral separation, then Quebec is outside of Canadian law and the onus is on Canada to make sure the natives stay in Canada if they wish to try. Sending what few troops we have into Quebec would provoke a crisis and the natives attempting to take control of the north with Quebecs hydro assets would be met with a very negative reponse from Quebec. To be sure, any separatist government would have a plan for such a situation, just as Parizeau had a plan for propping up the Canadian dollar for the sake of the economy.

I doubt the natives really care one way or another. They have no real affection for "Canada" but they'd want to be sure their rights are respected and Canada has done a dismal job in general for natives anyway and they'd be open for the best terms from wherever they come and no doubt Quebec would make it worth their while to cooperate.

they will be intact.

:hahaha: You know, the First Nations are a soverign culture, so therefore is guaranteed the right for self-determination, even if it means partitioning from Quebec. ;)

The partitioning of Quebec would be a recipe for civil strife and poisioned relations forever. Just a handful of separatist hotheads could easily prevent a lasting peace if it means a Belfast situation with bombs in Toronto or Ottawa and damaged economies on both sides.

Then we'll just have to declare a War on Terror against the insurgents of Quebec. ;)

blablabla... seriously forget partionning. Like I said before, cities are provincial entities, they have no say in federal/provincial issues, the province can take over any city whenever it wants. It can revoke its charter, merge it with other cities, dilute its vote. If some minor cities want to play some dirty games, the province can play even dirtier ones. Thats not even an issue. You guys are giving this way too much importance.

Arboriginals? Many of them have accords with the provincial govt, heck they even vote PQ!! check your sources ;)

As for the seaway, who cares? Quebec doesn't really use it. Its for boats who go on to the great lakes, and is not used in the winter because its frozen.

Boats who need to go to the Port of Montreal don't use the seaway, and the port is open 365 days a year.

In these kinds of situations being confrontational is not the solution, its best for both parties to part away, if there's a democratic will, by making as little waves as possible.

Look at the political fiasco we're in and the dollar dropped 5% against a very weak USD. Imagine if there's civil unrest, debt contestation, blocking of the seaway to Canadian ships, cutting hydroelectricity to Ontario, embargo against atlantic provinces, CDP selling billions of assets to drop the C$.... there's an infinite number of chaotic possibilities. But no need for this, both parties are way more civilized than that.

Arboriginals? Many of them have accords with the provincial govt, heck they even vote PQ!! check your sources ;)

US Department of State- Report on Canada:

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/1999/378.htm

"Quebec's Indian peoples remain overwhelmingly opposed to separation from Canada and deeply distrust the separatist government of the province. Despite the Quebec Prime Minister's recent overtures to the leaders of the Cree and Inuit nations, surveys indicate that most of Quebec's 60,000 Indians would favor partition of the province in the event of Quebec's separation from Canada. Indian leaders maintain that a sovereign Quebec would treat Indians as another ethnic minority instead of as sovereign nations within the territory of the province. "

Albertans and BC people can talk all they want about Quebec and give their opinion because Quebec is a province of Canada, therefore Quebec also belongs to them and to ALL canadians.

I know its hard to accept this if you are a separatist, but its like that.



As for Montreal, I must tell I lived there for 20 years (N.D.G. and downtown), I've lived in other countries and cities (right now I'm in Madrid (Spain), travelled all around the world, and my conclusions about Montreal are:

It's a very organised city, clean, nice people, and in last referemdum 70% of the city voted "No" to separation.

Arboriginals? Many of them have accords with the provincial govt, heck they even vote PQ!! check your sources ;)



Yes you need to check your facts. Didn't the Indians vote about 98% "No" in the last referundum? I even heard their leaders say on TV that if "the French" don't like being part of Canada they can get back in their canoes and paddle their way back to France! :)

Malek, I hope that you are exercising hard every day. You'll need to strengthen those paddling muscles - it's a very long trip.

blablabla... seriously forget partionning. Like I said before, cities are provincial entities, they have no say in federal/provincial issues, the province can take over any city whenever it wants. .


well thats funny, the same thing could be said about the country of canada, and its provinces.

As far as I am concerned, if people want to leave, let them. If they want to stay, let them. You can't have it 2 ways, ie., well we can leave, but then no one can leave us. I'm pretty sure though the PQ could reach an agreement with the natives, everybody has their price, and the northern hydro instalations are too important to the belle province. Its not like the native settlements are a shining example of CDN wealth, and sharing. I don't think they have been treated fairly, and their plight fairly addressed, so I don't think that it would take much to turn the tides. I would be more concerned about quality of governance, due to the PQs less than average track record.

Malek, why are you wasting your time with a bunch of teeny boppers? (excluding a couple of people here!)

Most of them live 3000KM's away and haven't even been here before, yet they seem to know more about our province then we do...We really must be a bunch of morons!

We really must be a bunch of morons!

Yes, why is that?

Malek, why are you wasting your time with a bunch of teeny boppers? (excluding a couple of people here!)

Most of them live 3000KM's away and haven't even been here before, yet they seem to know more about our province then we do...We really must be a bunch of morons!

Better a moron than a racist who throws rocks at kids and the elderly.

Why do you like spending so much time on forums with mostly
male teenyboppers?

For one thing, I may be mistaken, but don't native reserves fall under federal juridiction? If that's the case then the federal government already has a convincing argument to keep the northern parts of Quebec a part of Canada if they bring the matter to some court.
However, even if that's not the case, as I acknowledge it may not be, then what right does Quebec have to tell them that they can't secede from Quebec? If Quebec can justify it's own seperation from Canada then the same rules apply to the northern reserves and lands should they choose to seperate from Quebec.

Malek, why are you wasting your time with a bunch of teeny boppers? (excluding a couple of people here!)

Most of them live 3000KM's away and haven't even been here before, yet they seem to know more about our province then we do...We really must be a bunch of morons!


I know it's hard for separatists to accept that 70% of the population of Montreal voted "No" to a "not clear question" about the separation of Quebec in 1995, but those are the facts.

We, 70% of Montrealers and 51 % of Quebecers, don't wan't the province Quebec to separate from the rest of Canada, is it clear? (2 referenda is not enough?)

Aboutaboriginals:

yeah let their villages separate from Quebec... hahahhaha

you guys need to be serious?? what force could Canada use to keep parts of Northern Quebec under control? what do they want to control? the rocks? the ice? the tipis?

it makes absolutely no sense.

Indian affairs are federal jurisdiction. Thats why they're called federal reserves. The territories are still owned by the province... Provinces shall keep its territorial integrity as stated in the constitution.

Indians want to seperate the villages and be enclaved? ok, who cares. It will be their loss.

Indians might be against separation, they still vote for the PQ.

A new poll today gives 54% YES to a sovereign Quebec with economical ties with the rest of Canada.

The shocker is that its gaining even more momentum amongst those under the 65 years of age.

...Then what right does Quebec have to tell them that they can't secede from Quebec? If Quebec can justify it's own seperation from Canada then the same rules apply to the northern reserves and lands should they choose to seperate from Quebec.

Exactly, and I've rarely seen it stated any better...

A new poll today gives 54% YES to a sovereign Quebec with economical ties with the rest of Canada.

The shocker is that its gaining even more momentum amongst those under the 65 years of age.

No. The real shocker is that they don't ask a straight question, do you want to seperate. The question of economic ties is ridiciualas since this is out of their control, and it is the rest of canada that decides wether to allow such.

No. The real shocker is that they don't ask a straight question, do you want to seperate. The question of economic ties is ridiciualas since this is out of their control, and it is the rest of canada that decides wether to allow such.

why don't start your own poll? :bash:

Aboutaboriginals:

yeah let their villages separate from Quebec... hahahhaha

you guys need to be serious?? what force could Canada use to keep parts of Northern Quebec under control? what do they want to control? the rocks? the ice? the tipis?

it makes absolutely no sense.

Indian affairs are federal jurisdiction. Thats why they're called federal reserves. The territories are still owned by the province... Provinces shall keep its territorial integrity as stated in the constitution.

Indians want to seperate the villages and be enclaved? ok, who cares. It will be their loss.

Indians might be against separation, they still vote for the PQ.

Better yet : If the territories cited are of no value to Quebecers, then why argue about their own secession?

It's obvious that whatever reasoning the Francophone population can use to justify seperation from Canada can be applied to the native lands. The treaties will have to be sorted out of course but in the end you can count on them taking a large chunk of northern Quebec and keeping it within the confines of Canadian space. To argue otherwise would not only be the height of hypocrisy but would never stand up in a world court. As to the notion that First Nations voters prefer the PQ, I doubt that would be the case if seperation was on the table.

Better yet : If the territories cited are of no value to Quebecers, then why argue about their own secession?

It's obvious that whatever reasoning the Francophone population can use to justify seperation from Canada can be applied to the native lands. The treaties will have to be sorted out of course but in the end you can count on them taking a large chunk of northern Quebec and keeping it within the confines of Canadian space. To argue otherwise would not only be the height of hypocrisy but would never stand up in a world court. As to the notion that First Nations voters prefer the PQ, I doubt that would be the case if seperation was on the table.

A much more practical reason would be preserving territorial continuity between "East" and "West" Canada.

I don't think Quebec would be likely to retain anything north of Saguenay.

wow a voice of reason coming from the West ;)

Friendly adieu - Let's make it an amicable split when Quebec finally separates
Paul Jackson
Calgary Sun - Sun, May 8, 2005

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I've written that, before any couple starts to plan a honeymoon vacation to Europe, they should visit Quebec.

That goes for a lot of other would-be world travellers, too.

In Quebec, we have what amounts to a foreign country -- a slab of continental Europe -- right on our doorstep.

Quebec City is the most historic and beautiful capital in our country, the Gaspe is marvelous, and the Laurentians magnificent.

Yet, since the currency is the same no one will gyp you, drinking the tap water won't make you sick, and if they can, and many can't, Quebecers will speak to you in your own language.

I've spent a lot of happy times in Quebec, especially in old Montreal, and it's all rather enchanting.

Setting the scene for this column in this way will, I hope, prevent anyone from labelling me anti-French Canadian or anti-Quebec.

After all, the Jean Chretien/Paul Martin Liberals are ever eager to hurl slurs at people. Particularly so when it comes to Quebec, which is a charade, since those of us with an ounce of common sense now know the sudden surge of separatist fever in la belle province has been spurred by the Chretien/Martin clique itself, and by the shameless looting of the taxpayers' money as evidence by revelations coming out of Mr. Justice John Gomery's inquiry.

In "Divided we stand" (Apr. 30) I recounted how I believe those seeking an independent Quebec are going to win and separation is inevitable.

Finally, I've thrown in the towel in the exhausting fight to keep Quebec in Confederation.

There appear to be three classes of thought on the issue: (A) Keep tossing billions of dollars at Quebec in order to keep it in Confederation; (B) Let the French-Canadians go if they so want, but let's do so with rancour and hold them to their share of the $500 billion federal debt; (C) Let history take its obvious course, and let Quebec go, but let's still remain friends, though with no special concessions or final payoffs on some mysterious debt.

Put me in the third category -- and treat former Bloc Quebecois leader Lucien Bouchard's demand that when Quebec leaves it will have to be compensated for the loss of such national assets as Banff and Jasper national parks with the contempt it deserves. Or maybe English Canada would need to be compensated for the loss of the aforementioned Quebec City, the Gaspe and the Laurentians.

Actually, we should not even hold an independent Quebec to the demand that it owes Canada roughly 25% of the national debt. Write it off as a goodwill measure.

For, without Quebec, and the huge continuing expense to taxpayers in the rest of the nation of bribing it to remain, our federal coffers would be overflowing and we'd soon wipe out the entire $500 billion debt, which would be a tremendous boost to our economy.

English Canada would need some 25% fewer federal government employees, there would be no more need to continue to pay hundreds of millions of dollars into sinkholes like Bombardier, the headquarters of Air Canada, plus a stack of federal government agencies now located in Quebec, could be relocated.

That Hull, the other half of the so-called national capital region, would be a ghost town of empty buildings which would be the Quebec government's problem.

Just as Europe, with a notable exception being Britain, has the common currency of the Euro, Quebec would be free to still use the Canadian dollar, but with no input into what the Bank of Canada does, or opt for the U.S. dollar.

Quebecers would not be able to have Canadian passports, or any other attributes of Canada.

Why would they, though?

An independent Quebec could negotiate its own trade and foreign relations deals with various nations, and it would be up to Washington to decide if the Canada-U.S.-Mexico free trade pact still included Quebec. Canada would not negotiate on behalf of Quebec in any sphere.

Again, why would we?

Throughout history nations have risen and fallen.

Poland was once the largest nation in Europe.

A smattering of new, independent nations came into being with the collapse of the Soviet Union. Yugoslavia split into four nations in the 1990s.

Bangladesh came into being in 1971, after being part of Pakistan, and previously part of India.

In the coming election, it is likely Gilles Duceppe's Bloc Quebecois will take all but a handful of the province's federal seats.

Provincially the Parti Quebecois looks like it will topple Jean Charest's beleaguered Liberals.

The scene is surely set for an epoch-changing shift.

History is unfolding, as Pierre Trudeau once said, it should.

and the previous article he was reffering to.

Divided we stand - Perhaps having an independent Quebec would be better for Canadians
Paul Jackson
Calgary Sun - Sunday, May 01, 2005

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A few weeks back Bloc Quebecois Leader Gilles Duceppe did a western swing and a comment he made has been whispering around in my mind ever since.

Now, Duceppe has often been mocked by his opponents, and having once been a Marxist-Leninist, it’s relatively easy to portray him as being off-the-wall, but by most assessments he was the most articulate of all four federal party leaders during the 2004 federal election campaign.

And, as for his Marxist-Leninist period, most of us have either said, or done, some pretty foolish things during our lives.

What the Bloc leader said that has been whispering in my mind during his stop-off in Calgary and other points West, was that what passes for English-Canada would be much happier in the long run if Quebec were an independent country, and that Quebecers would certainly be much happier. Both of us would have a much better, more friendly, relationship.

I’m starting to believe Duceppe may well be right.

Now, for a long, long time I was hauled into the ‘Quebec is part of my country’ idea and aghast when someone suggested maybe we should let Quebec go.

My reasoning partly being (A) Quebec is a part of Canada so why hand it over to a bunch of radical separatist fanatics, and (B), that the rest of the world is coming together—the borderless European Union, of which I am a great supporter being perhaps the best example—so why would Quebec want to go in the opposite direction?

Wanting to become a rather small, insignificant entity rather than being part of a large, supposedly world-respected entity hardly seemed rational.

But in recent months, an awakening has started to happen to my thought processes on ‘La belle province,’ and I can’t really see why we should spend yet another decade exhausting ourselves in order to try and continue to buy off one province.

This growing mood really hit home this past week when a new poll showed 54% of Quebecers surveyed would now vote for separation, up a dramatic 10% in the past year. Significantly, 37% of those polled said the inquiry under the auspices of Mr. Justice John Gomery into the Liberal AdScam affair has been influential in either hardening their support for separation or shifting their views on the issue.

We in English Canada often think French-Canadians believe patronage, bribes, payoffs and kickbacks are all part of the game. That they see nothing dishonest in these tactics.

Worth noting then that it is Quebec where the Gomery inquiry has had its worst fallout. French-Canadians have been glued to their TV sets day-after-day and week-after-week watching the revelations of Liberal perfidy unfold from the inquiry as if it were some top-rated soap opera.

They are not amused—indeed, they are incensed by what Jean Chretien’s and Paul Martin’s Liberals have been doing.

So incensed, an increasing number of them—rational ones, too, not just separatist radicals—do not want to be part of such a rotten system any longer.

The irony is for several decades the hypocritical Liberal party and its governments have contended they are the only ones who can fight separatism and ‘save’ Canadian Confederation.

Today we see that because of Liberal corruption—and the grab of provincial rights from Quebec—which also echoes in Alberta’s fury towards Liberal Ottawa—it’s the likes of Pierre Trudeau, Chretien and Martin who have spurred disenchantment in Quebec and across Canada.

In last year’s federal election the Bloc took 54 of Quebec’s 75 seats, and the Liberals 21. It’s suggested in the coming election Duceppe’s party could win all but half-a-dozen seats.

This coupled with the almost certain defeat of Premier Jean Charest’s provincial Liberals, would mean Quebec would be governed and represented in both provincial and federal politics by the two parties whose main objective is independence.

How realistically could a smattering of provincial governments in English Canada, and English-language MPs sitting in the House of Commons, fight such forces.

Perhaps we have to accept what Duceppe and his supporters believe is inevitable (and what many in English Canada believe, too).

Maybe we really would both be happier separate, but with the same kind of trade, economic, military and various alliances other independent nations share with each other.

Think about it—and without emotion—because no number of Liberal platitudes, hucksterism—and certainly not bribes—are going to bind Quebecers to Canada now.

Malek, FYI lots of Albertans would dance a little jig if Quebec every decided to separate because they figure it would lead to much lower taxes for them. That is, better for them and worse for you, understand now?

Of course the Quebecois will never vote to separate because they vote with their bellies.

and your point is ?

Even the separists have agreed to take their portion of percapita debt....25%.
I had a friend from Quebec City and he was a separatist. He simply said that we would make better best friends than lovers. Interesting and more positive view.
They have done poll after poll and about 92-95% always agree that Quebecer's think Canada is the best country to live in the world.
Culturally and politically both countries will be worse off in the short term but economically Canada will be better off and Quebec will be in a recssion for a long time.
The two real issues are.......what will happen with the natives and what will happen to Montrealer's west island and Hull.
Half of Montrealers will refuse, especially anglo and allophones.
What ever it is we have to let this happen one way or the other we can't keep dragging this out. The whole nation can't have a gun to its head from one province.
If we keep appeasing Quebec separatists than the other provinces will start going it alone especially NewF and BC/Alb. There is even a growing separatist movement in Ontario and if Ontario goes then so goes Canada.
It pisses me off that no one ever does a poll of what Canadians think of Quebec going.

IF the conservatives are elected and give a new role to ottawa in this federation by giving it less power and hand back what the provinces are supposed to have, then it might shut many separatists all over Canada and especially Quebec.

We'll see what will happen.

About the polls: 31% of the allophones support independance, 10% of anglophones also. 17% of anglophones would certainly move out and 32% would think about moving out of Quebec if it separated. 6% of French said that they would certainly move out if it separated.

What do the polls say now about a third referendum? What will the % be?
(I don't have access to this information here in Europe)

There aren't any clear numbers yet....support for an independant Québec vary between 47 and 54%.

What do the polls say now about a third referendum? What will the % be?
(I don't have access to this information here in Europe)

54% YES
46% NO

the next federal government will have to fix the problem of the powers/taxation imbalance between the provinces and Ottawa... or that YES vote will stay up.

There aren't any clear numbers yet....support for an independant Québec vary between 47 and 54%.

thanks for the information.

If Quebec seperates, every home in Montreal will be worth thirteen trillion Uzbekistani duckets. Now THAT'S value !

If francaphones say they can separate from canada because of laugage a culture than the native people have even more right as they never joined canada, and have been there for a hell of alot longer and have a different culture and langues. quebec would be reduced to 1/3 it's size and all the resources will stay in canada.

To the seperatist what justification can you use to not allow the native people to seperate

"quebec would be reduced to 1/3 it's size and all the resources will stay in canada.

To the seperatist what justification can you use to not allow the native people to seperate"

We'll be left qith 1/3 of the province? That is simply not true, and I'd even say is a bit silly for you to say that! The Natives account for less than 80,000 people in this Province, and most of them live in their reservations. If they absolutely want to stay with canada, their reservations can remain Canadian land...if that's what they want.

Do you honestly think Québec will give up the dozens of hydro electric damns in the North? I don't think so!

"quebec would be reduced to 1/3 it's size and all the resources will stay in canada.

To the seperatist what justification can you use to not allow the native people to seperate"

We'll be left qith 1/3 of the province? That is simply not true, and I'd even say is a bit silly for you to say that! The Natives account for less than 80,000 people in this Province, and most of them live in their reservations. If they absolutely want to stay with canada, their reservations can remain Canadian land...if that's what they want.

Do you honestly think Québec will give up the dozens of hydro electric damns in the North? I don't think so!

The separatist wants to keep the savages in their reservations. What a surprise.
You might want to think about whose homeland your living on.
It may become obvious after a couple hydro towers go down and you can no longer reach these dams.

Quebec's natives in the north are among the best compensated natives in Canada already, between the federal government (which has done shit for natives in general) and provincial accords (to do with hydro) between Quebec and the natives. I can think of few others that have dealings with both the federal and provincial government.

If federalists want to delude themselves into thinking natives in Quebec want to stay in Canada for altruistic reasons, that would be a mistake given Canada's dismal record on native affairs, rampant poverty/3rd world conditions etc. If there's reservations to keep "savages" on, it's because the federal government put them there and enforce their dependency through poor living conditions and past cultural destruction.

Natives in northern Quebec don't love Canada. They prefer the devil they know. They fear everything they have is up for grabs in an independent Quebec and prefer the "safe" status quo. Some a$$urance would go along way into a$$uaging any fears they have of an independent Quebec, and really, how could Quebec do any worse than Canada already has?

... and really, how could Quebec do any worse than Canada already has?

You make good points but as to the last comment....well, in light of this entire thread I'd say that Quebec would be unable to do any better for certain. I don't think it likely but it could be argued that whatever deals are currently in place could someday be challenged as the works of a foreign government and nullified or renegotiated. If this were to be the case it would probably be as part of some cost cutting measure which is going to be a real need once Quebec finds itself on the financial ropes after seperation.

The separatist wants to keep the savages in their reservations. What a surprise.
You might want to think about whose homeland your living on.
It may become obvious after a couple hydro towers go down and you can no longer reach these dams.

You have got to be the dumbest idiot I have had the misfortune of reading on these boards!! :bash: :weirdo: :no:

If Quebec seperates, every home in Montreal will be worth thirteen trillion Uzbekistani duckets. Now THAT'S value !


LOL. Good one!

Quebec's natives in the north are among the best compensated natives in Canada already, between the federal government (which has done shit for natives in general) and provincial accords (to do with hydro) between Quebec and the natives. I can think of few others that have dealings with both the federal and provincial government.

Well, they provide them with free health care, free education (including university) and other welfare. The last time I checked the Feds were spending around $7 billion per year on them.

Natives in northern Quebec don't love Canada. They prefer the devil they know. They fear everything they have is up for grabs in an independent Quebec and prefer the "safe" status quo. Some a$$urance would go along way into a$$uaging any fears they have of an independent Quebec, and really, how could Quebec do any worse than Canada already has?

The Natives aren't exactly patriotic to Canada. However, they have too many big victories under their belts from the Supreme Court of Canada for them to walk away from Canada just for the sake of some trinkets offered from Quebec. I really think the Natives are smarter than you take them for in that some a$$urance would not adequately a$$uage their fears of playing in an entirely new ball game - one where none of the new rule have been tested in court.

You make good points but as to the last comment....well, in light of this entire thread I'd say that Quebec would be unable to do any better for certain. I don't think it likely but it could be argued that whatever deals are currently in place could someday be challenged as the works of a foreign government and nullified or renegotiated. If this were to be the case it would probably be as part of some cost cutting measure which is going to be a real need once Quebec finds itself on the financial ropes after seperation.

That is exactly my thinking.

Quebec can promise the Natives the moon, but when reality slaps the government in the face, and they see how they can't afford those promises a few years down the road, the sweet deals may have to end - and the Supreme Court of Canada won't be around to help them.

Well, they provide them with free health care, free education (including university) and other welfare. The last time I checked the Feds were spending around $7 billion per year on them.

The Natives aren't exactly patriotic to Canada. However, they have too many big victories under their belts from the Supreme Court of Canada for them to walk away from Canada just for the sake of some trinkets offered from Quebec. I really think the Natives are smarter than you take them for in that some a$$urance would not adequately a$$uage their fears of playing in an entirely new ball game - one where none of the new rule have been tested in court.

The amount of money we spend on natives is not the measure of success. Dilapidated housing and poor health prospects is the norm, and only a tiny fraction of natives take advantage of free university.

Trinkets better describes what the federal government and early colonizers provided the natives before they were reduced to reserves in the first place. They have much higher expectations now, obviously, and it would be relatively easy for Quebec to meet them compared to other provinces in Canada (if they had to) when funding for natives by the federal government is roughly 1/2 in Quebec than what it is in B.C., Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta, that the native population in Quebec is so small--in absolute terms and relative. Bottom line, Quebec needs only 300 million a year or so to cover the federal funding.

The natives have higher courts in the world to look to to assert their rights than the Supreme Court of Canada, and have on occasion: The U.N. and public opinion.

World opinion killed a planned hydro expansion in Quebec when natives cried foul and if world opinion means the difference between recognizing an independent Quebec or not, you can be sure natives could be no worse off than they are today.

Do you really think the natives of Quebec will be accepted into the separatist’s PURE culture?
Do you think the natives of Quebec will forgive a mob of separatist who threw rocks at their kids and elderly?

The separatist culture is a delicate little white snowflake. It must be protected from all other cultures.
The sign law proves this fact.
With their language twice as big as all other languages, they can feel superior and belittle others.

You have got to be the dumbest idiot I have had the misfortune of reading on these boards!! :bash: :weirdo: :no:

A separatist who calls me names, it makes me smile and feel all warm inside.

The amount of money we spend on natives is not the measure of success. Dilapidated housing and poor health prospects is the norm, and only a tiny fraction of natives take advantage of free university.

Of course I never implied that the amount of money we spend on Natives is any measure of success. However, if we didn't provide what we do to them, they would either starve, die of disease or freeze to death.

At any rate, I was thinking more about Native land claims. In Canada, they are in a good position with respect to land claims. I wonder what Quebec courts would do for them? No one knows the answer to that.

They have much higher expectations now, obviously, and it would be relatively easy for Quebec to meet them compared to other provinces in Canada (if they had to) when funding for natives by the federal government is roughly 1/2 in Quebec than what it is in B.C., Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta, that the native population in Quebec is so small--in absolute terms and relative. Bottom line, Quebec needs only 300 million a year or so to cover the federal funding.

The natives have higher courts in the world to look to to assert their rights than the Supreme Court of Canada, and have on occasion: The U.N. and public opinion.

World opinion killed a planned hydro expansion in Quebec when natives cried foul and if world opinion means the difference between recognizing an independent Quebec or not, you can be sure natives could be no worse off than they are today

What killed the proposed hydro projects years ago was the liberal-minded people and politicians of the New England states - not the impotent U.N.or World opinion. If Quebec had built those projects (without Native support), they would have had no market for the power. With the US energy shortage - and high price of oil/gas - opinions many change. Back then, the US wouldn't have considered drilling in Anwar either. Now, with energy a little more expensive, they have decided to drill in that National Park. US support for the Natives can be just as ephemeral - and the Natives know it.

A separatist who calls me names, it makes me smile and feel all warm inside.

A classic!

You have got to be the dumbest idiot I have had the misfortune of reading on these boards!! :bash: :weirdo: :no:

And who is the smartest idiot?

A separatist who calls me names, it makes me smile and feel all warm inside.

You're just not worth it!

And who is the smartest idiot?


I think it's you, OceanMDX.


ZING! :) j/k

The separatist culture is a delicate little white snowflake. It must be protected from all other cultures.
The sign law proves this fact.
With their language twice as big as all other languages, they can feel superior and belittle others.

the naked, ugly truth. What a moral disaster.

Is Villeneuve's restaurant still called Newtown? Or did the language Nazi's get to him?

You guys need to grow up a little!

I think it's you, OceanMDX.


ZING! :) j/k

No, I would be the smartest poster! ;)

The nearest thing to a homeland the separatists have is France.
No one racial group should have the right to separate.
Particularly when the land they claim is the homeland of other racial groups.

"The nearest thing to a homeland the separatists have is France. "

Once again your ignorance shines through!

If you'd know anything about Québec, is that we have very little in common with France(with the exception of Language!)

Tu ne fais que te caler...

"The nearest thing to a homeland the separatists have is France. "

Once again your ignorance shines through!

If you'd know anything about Québec, is that we have very little in common with France(with the exception of Language!)

Tu ne fais que te caler...

The separatists have been belittling all other cultures in Quebec since the being of time?
A stone tablet with fleurs-de-lis was found in a cave?
Did that tablet say how superior and special the separatist really are?

... especially this one

... especially this one

Are you starting to question your own beliefs?

The separatists have been belittling all other cultures in Quebec since the being of time?
A stone tablet with fleurs-de-lis was found in a cave?
Did that tablet say how superior and special the separatist really are?

Wich brings me to my next point... dont smoke crack.

... especially this one

I concur.

Are you starting to question your own beliefs?

Mod closed down the other threads that do not go anywhere so how come this one is still on, Mr. Pink?

... especially this one

not at all... this stuff needs discussion.

@ MisterPing.. I've noticed a common element in your short posts... can you give us one in Haiku?

Mod closed down the other threads that do not go anywhere so how come this one is still on, Mr. Pink?

Why does this thread bother you so much?

not at all... this stuff needs discussion.

@ MisterPing.. I've noticed a common element in your short posts... can you give us one in Haiku?

I like to keep it short and sweet.
As for a Haiku, that might be fun.

The separatists hate all other cultures and the truth.
You can get arrested for waving the Canadian flag in Quebec. Hateful separatist will butch to the police.
The Canadian flag represents a multicultural nation and the separatists hate it.

Canadians treated french canadians as second rate citizens and opressed them for years, participated in a genocide against aboriginals, participated in slavery. Ontario discriminated against jews and blacks for years not allowing them the same rights... blablabla

Canadians treated french canadians as second rate citizens and opressed them for years, participated in a genocide against aboriginals, participated in slavery. Ontario discriminated against jews and blacks for years not allowing them the same rights... blablabla

I think you should print this out and read it.

http://www.newimprovedhead.com/shell2.htm

Canadians treated french canadians as second rate citizens and opressed them for years, participated in a genocide against aboriginals, participated in slavery. Ontario discriminated against jews and blacks for years not allowing them the same rights... blablabla

Canadians and Aboriginals were allies in the War of 1812.

Ontario (not Quebec) was the terminus of the Underground Railroad for Blacks escaping slavery.

Ontario didn't discriminate against Jews anymore than Quebec. Seagrams was founded in my home town (Waterloo, Ontario) and I didn't hear any complains from the Jews who owned it.

Got anything else you really need to pull out of your ass?

Canadians and Aboriginals were allies in the War of 1812.

Ontario (not Quebec) was the terminus of the Underground Railroad for Blacks escaping slavery.

Ontario didn't discriminate against Jews anymore than Quebec. Seagrams was founded in my home town (Waterloo, Ontario) and I didn't hear any complains from the Jews who owned it.

Got anything else you really need to pull out of your ass?

This is beside the point, and has nothing to do with housing prices in Quebec, but what the hey, pratically every post on this thread is beside the original subject.

You would want us to beleive that there was no discrimination against blacks and jews in ontario, no oppression of french in Canada, and no Aboriginals murdered in Canada ? All you have cited here is all nice and dandy, but unfortunatly it does not change the facts. You're in denial my friend.

I'm not saying we are better, I'm just saying you are not.

Of course I never implied that the amount of money we spend on Natives is any measure of success. However, if we didn't provide what we do to them, they would either starve, die of disease or freeze to death.

At any rate, I was thinking more about Native land claims. In Canada, they are in a good position with respect to land claims. I wonder what Quebec courts would do for them? No one knows the answer to that.



What killed the proposed hydro projects years ago was the liberal-minded people and politicians of the New England states - not the impotent U.N.or World opinion. If Quebec had built those projects (without Native support), they would have had no market for the power. With the US energy shortage - and high price of oil/gas - opinions many change. Back then, the US wouldn't have considered drilling in Anwar either. Now, with energy a little more expensive, they have decided to drill in that National Park. US support for the Natives can be just as ephemeral - and the Natives know it.


Those liberal-minded people.. after having been informed by the natives after their heroic canoe journey to New York for Earth day. They won a public relations war with the aid of environmental groups and public opinion then helped to kill the hydro project.

The U.N. security council is certainly impotent, but Quebec requires world opinion in its favour if it expects to join the U.N. and the international community.

You would want us to beleive that there was no discrimination against blacks and jews in ontario, no oppression of french in Canada, and no Aboriginals murdered in Canada ? All you have cited here is all nice and dandy, but unfortunatly it does not change the facts. You're in denial my friend.



I have made no such claims. :weirdo:

I have made no such claims. :weirdo:

Sorry dude, it really seemed like you were disagreing with me there. :)

Canadians treated french canadians as second rate citizens and opressed them for years, participated in a genocide against aboriginals, participated in slavery. Ontario discriminated against jews and blacks for years not allowing them the same rights... blablabla

Do you know what gave birth to the Nazis?
Germans feeling oppressed after WW1.

Mr. Ping, How old are you? seriously? 11 ? 12?

Cause your posts are really childish...maybe you've been snorting some good shit? I don'T know, but you really don't make any sense!!

Anyways, enjoy yourself, and keep on thinking that Québec is a Nazi paradise...what can I say?

^^ Je croix qu'il vaut mieux l'ignorer celui-là, il ne peut pas vraiment être aussi crétin qu'il le laisse croire, il cherche juste à nous faire réagir.

Enfin, p-e que j'me trompe, c'est p-e vraiment le pire imbicile que j'ai jamais eu la chance d'y lire les posts.

Moi je viendrais plus ici du tout... apres de maintes messages aux mods, ceux-ci ne veulent rien faire puisque tout est ben correct...

c'est fini pour ce board, j'irais poster ailleurs.

^^ Je croix qu'il vaut mieux l'ignorer celui-là, il ne peut pas vraiment être aussi crétin qu'il le laisse croire, il cherche juste à nous faire réagir.

Enfin, p-e que j'me trompe, c'est p-e vraiment le pire imbicile que j'ai jamais eu la chance d'y lire les posts.

French is your secrete language? It’s not that endangered.
I just pull the strings and you dance.

Μου εκκρίνετε τη γλώσσα

Moi je viendrais plus ici du tout... apres de maintes messages aux mods, ceux-ci ne veulent rien faire puisque tout est ben correct...

c'est fini pour ce board, j'irais poster ailleurs.

Bye bye... so long. I will miss you. Really I will.

Moi je viendrais plus ici du tout... apres de maintes messages aux mods, ceux-ci ne veulent rien faire puisque tout est ben correct...

c'est fini pour ce board, j'irais poster ailleurs.

In english too please! :D

Moi je viendrais plus ici du tout... apres de maintes messages aux mods, ceux-ci ne veulent rien faire puisque tout est ben correct...

c'est fini pour ce board, j'irais poster ailleurs.


Ja warum nicht gehen Sie?

If some PQ member wants to know how to increase the separatist vote then he should let people read the bullshit posted in this thread ;)
My God, how naive I was for thinking I could have a discussion on Quebec without having to read this stuff ...

Mods: get your head out of your ass and act like a mod (unless you of course get off on the Quebec bashing).

Anyways, I am out.

I was away for the last 3 days....sorry that no one got around to closing this thread.

When I closed the other 3 separation threads, I got numerous complaints of how it was unfair to close all threads pertaining to separatism, that's why I left this one open to give you guys one last chance to discuss separatism in a civilized way...but since so many of you cannot handle it, all threads on separtism will be closed without question for the next month. Maybe after that time, some of you will smarten up.