PUBLIC TRANSPORT MISERY OUT OF ATHENS

[Geroplatanos]

Inadequate public transportation in other greek cities and what we should learn from our neighbours/med. friends (Italy,Spain,Turkey,Balkan cities )

I open this thread because many people (the other 5 millions of greek people ) who live out of Athens and Thessaloniki , continue to have 3rd world public transportation systems and it seems no hope for the future.
Actually we can put also thessaloniki in the list of the other greek cities since the only system which this city has at the moment is "ugly buses"

For sure a big discussion can be made and i wait for your opinions/comments/proposals/ show of anger.

I just start this with some and some comments :

Greece became a member of European Union in 1981.
Today we have 2005.
For the people who know , allready 3 big funding packages from EU have been spent (1,2,3 ΚΠΣ ) .
For sure some things have been done these 24 years.
But it is too less for the money spent and for the chances that were lost.
I remind to dear friends here what was spain in 1986 (when it was still called the poor south with greece and portugal) and where is spain now.
As about Turkey ,it deservers a big bravo , because with many financial difficulties (crisis 2001) and without being member of EU (so almost no money) it has changed totaly the last 15-20 years. (please people dont start here a discussion about GDP per capita etc. this is a thread about infrastructure in public transportation and only )
I am glad for this developement of Turkey.
At the same time i am sad , that all the countryside of Greece was forgoten and let behind (like the train is gone and we still wait at the trainstation)

All of you here (friends of the greek forum) can very easily have a look at the beautiful threads of public transportation media photos (trams,metro,s-bahn, etc) from many cities in turkey,italy,spain,portugal.
And here all we got is just the same soup ten times a day (thanks God for the olympics ). And this soup is ATHENS and ATHENS and ATHENS.
There it stops.
No developement out of this city.
And developement i dont mean multicinemas,restaurants and bars for the tourists.

Anyway i could say much about all these.
I focus on the title.



PUBLIC TRANSPORT OF GREEK CITIES EXCEPT ATHENS

Thessaloniki : Only buses (~530) (hopefully it was announced from the minister of transport that untill 2008 80% of the buses must be under 5-6 years old and modern, lets see.... , also it was anounced the creation (how?) of a suburban line )


And from here starts the chaos...(and misery because there is no hope-no projects anounced)

Patra : ~80 buses (half of them 30 years old and the other half 15 years old used from Austria or Germany -they dont even take out the german signs lol )

Heraclion: ~60 buses (the same like patra , most of the old and used)

Larissa: only buses (the same)

Volos: only buses (the same, ugly and old)

Ioannina: only buses (the same ,second hand all of them)

Kavala : only buses (the same)

I should also mention that all the the above buses are not environmentally friendly . Actually most of them have bad maintainance (dont forget they are sold as allready old from germany and austria) .
Also the price of the ticket is crazy for the quality of service (for example a simple ride can reach 1 euro)





And now from the misery ...to the other side! :) Enjoy the photos!!

PORTO (PORTUGAL)
http://www.urbanrail.net/eu/por/por-srmatost1.jpg

http://www.urbanrail.net/eu/por/por-srmatost2.jpg

http://www.urbanrail.net/eu/por/casadamusica1.jpg


BILBAO (SPAIN)
http://www.urbanrail.net/eu/bil/bil-urbinaga1.jpg

CATANIA (ITALY)
http://www.urbanrail.net/eu/cat/porto1.jpg

KONYA (TURKEY)
http://dunyaturk.com/tr43/MAli_MAliKuleSite06.jpg

LILLE (FRANCE)
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/fr/trams/Lille/tram_lf_r.jpg

ESKISEHIR (TURKEY)
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/tr/trams/Eskisehir/estram7.jpg

ZAGREB(CROATIA)
http://img179.exs.cx/img179/5407/svetice28zb.jpg

CAEN (FRANCE)
http://www.trans-com.net/phototheque_vehicule/images/2060.jpg


And many other that it would take long time to list them all....
Now i supose you can understand the feeling of ANGER and SADNESS for all the Greek governments and local politicians and their policies of all the last 24 years of participation of greece in EU .
THIS HAS TO STOP.
PEOPLE WHO LIVE OUT OF THE CAPITAL (but also in it) DESERVE BETTER INFRASTRUCTURE, BETTER FUTURE AND BETTER QUALITY OF LIFE.
END.
thank you for your patience and i wait for your comments.

[tzinos]

You are absolutelly right.

Nevertheless, according to plans Heraclion, Patras, Larissa and Volos are planning their own tram systems. As for Thessaloniki, the plans are already known.

For more info on that matter visit http://www.stadia.gr/forum/viewforum.php?f=5

then choose "Erga stis ypoloipes poleis tis Elladas" and read the last 2 pages. Its quite interesting

[Geroplatanos]

File Tzino thank you for your support.
Πήγα και στο forum που μου είπες , είναι από τα καλύτερα forum για τέτοια θέματα (συμφωνεί και ο gm ) .
Μακάρι να γίνει κάτι , όλοι αυτό περιμένουμε...αλλά θα συμφωνήσω με ένα αναγνώστη του stadia.gr ότι είναι εξαιρετικά απίθανο.
Έχω πάει και εγώ σε διάφορες ημερίδες/συνέδρια και άλλα τετοια κουραφέξαλα , έτσι για να γίνεται χαβαλές όμως και μηδέν ουσία.
ΚΑΝΕΝΑ σχέδιο αυτή τη στιγμή (2005 ) και για καμία πόλη (πλην το γνωστό για θεσσαλονίκη - που εξακολουθεί να μην έχει σχέδιο εκτός της μιας εφετζίδικης γραμμής του μετρό ) δεν έχει υποβάλει προταση για χρηματοδότηση ενός δικτύου τροχιοδρόμου.
Όλα είναι στα χαρτιά και αέρας κοπανιστός.
Και φοβάμαι ότι εκτός από έλλειψη σοβαρών μελετών και βούλισης , δυστυχώς "δεν παίζουν και φράγκα".
Σκέψου μόνο τους προυπολογισμούς των δήμων σήμερα (που είναι σε μαύρα χάλια οι περισσότεροι ) καθώς και το ότι τα λεφτά πλέον απο την ευρώπη στερεύουν ή τα "σκάνε" πολύ πιο δύσκολα σε σχέση με το παρελθόν...
Τέλος πάντων , ας ελπίσουμε , και ας πιέσουμε (όσο μπορούμε) για να γίνει κάτι.
Αυτό το thread έγινε και για αυτό το σκοπό, ευαισθητοποίηση του κόσμου έστω και αυτών των λίγων που διαβάζουν το forum.

[KONSTANTINOUPOLIS]

@ Geroplatanos are you living in Hellas?

I am asking you this cos the easiest way is to blame the politicians.

Can you imagine who has the main blame for all this?

Well let me help you.

Its YOU and ME. WE elect them, and you know what we deserve what we 've got.

I am off.

ps) Συγνώμη αν φαίνεται επιθετικό το μήνυμα μου

[Geroplatanos]

@ Geroplatanos are you living in Hellas?

I am asking you this cos the easiest way is to blame the politicians.

Can you imagine who has the main blame for all this?

Well let me help you.

Its YOU and ME. WE elect them, and you know what we deserve what we 've got.

I am off.

ps) Συγνώμη αν φαίνεται επιθετικό το μήνυμα μου

Dear Konstantinpoupolis first of all thank you for participating and i supose you now that you are better informed now about what kind of public transport we have out of athens you agree that the situation is very bad and that it should change.
Yes i am living in Hellas (not athens) and i agree with what you said, but at the same time this is a loop ,you cant get out!
Yes the people elect the politicians ...but...
What is the alternative option?
there is no alternative option because always one of the 2 big parties will be government even if you dont vote for it.
As about the smaller parties i will not comment because its a joke..
So at least these people who are elected should do as much as it is possible .

The whole ROUSFETI and the whole mentality is something that cant change unfortunatelly. (perhaps only after 3-4 generations = 200 years)

And when i say politicians i mean all the box not only the parlamentaries or the government but also mayors,local representatives,local chamber presidents and so on (we all know that in greece every 2 people someone calls his self a president in something)

But we are in a way out of the main topic. Lets focus on the tragic condition of public transports and possible ways out of this situation.
Και μην ανησυχείς δε μου φαίνεται καθόλου επιθετικό το μήνυμα σου ,ξέρεις ότι συμφωνώ. :)

[KONSTANTINOUPOLIS]

Back to Hellenic

Φίλε μου συνεχίζω

Ξεκινάω από την πολιτική αυτή κάθε αυτήν και συνεχίζω στην ευρύτερη έννοια της.

Όταν λέω ότι φέρουμε ευθύνη ομιλώ περί συλλογικής ευθύνης και όχι ατομικής.
Αναφέρομαι δηλαδή στον «κυρίαρχο» λαό όπου ανήκεις εσύ και εγώ. Η ατομική ευθύνη είναι αμελητέα σε ότι έχει να κάνει στην σχέση κράτους-λαού γιαυτο δεν είναι άξια αναφοράς στην παρούσα φάση.

Όταν λοιπόν αυτός ο λαός ( στον οποίο επαναλαμβάνω ανήκουμε εσύ και εγώ ) αποφασίζει ότι είναι ευχαριστημένος με αυτό το δικέφαλο τέρας που λέγεται δικομματισμός τότε φέρει ευθύνη και μάλιστα μέγιστη.

Τρόποι αντίδρασης υπάρχουν αλλά δεν είναι επί του παρόντος να τους αναφέρω

Επιγραμματικά μόνο:

Αλλαγή του εκλογικού συστήματος, ενίσχυση των μικρότερων παρατάξεων, είσοδος νέων κομμάτων στην Βουλή κ.α

Θέληση να υπάρχει και όλα γίνονται. Όταν δε δεν υπάρχει θέληση και ο λαός αδιαφορεί εγκληματικά τότε έχουμε σημαντικότατα θέματα όπως το ευρωσυνταγμα και την τελωνιακή ένωση των τούρκων να περνάνε «περίπατο» από την Βουλή χωρίς να πάρει είδηση ο «κυρίαρχος» λαός τη έγκλημα ( κατά εμέ ) διέπραξε εν αγνοία του..

Μίλησες για σιδηρόδρομους π.χ στην Τουρκία. Ξέρεις τη πείνα επικρατεί στην Τουρκία; To ξέρεις ότι η βιτρίνα της Τουρκίας η Κωνσταντινούπολη δέχεται κάθε χρόνο 200-300.000 ( αν δεν κάνω λάθος ) εσωτερικούς μετανάστες από την Αν. Τουρκία; Για να μην αναφερθώ στα πόσα εκατομμύρια δεν έχουν νερό η ηλεκτρικό στα σπίτια τους.
Το μετρό της Κωνσταντινούπολις το έχεις δει. Πληθυσμιακά η Πολις είναι τετραπλάσια από την Αθήνα και όμως το μετρό της χιλιομετρικά μπορεί να είναι και μικρότερο από της Αθήνας.

Που θέλω να καταλήξω, ότι όταν κάνεις αυτού του είδους της συγκρίσεις καλό είναι να κοιτάς την δομή ενός κράτους συνολικά και όχι αποσπασματικά.
















Υ.Γ ) Κουβ. ήρεμα με την μετάφραση

[Geroplatanos]

Back to Hellenic

Φίλε μου συνεχίζω

Ξεκινάω από την πολιτική αυτή κάθε αυτήν και συνεχίζω στην ευρύτερη έννοια της.

Όταν λέω ότι φέρουμε ευθύνη ομιλώ περί συλλογικής ευθύνης και όχι ατομικής.
Αναφέρομαι δηλαδή στον «κυρίαρχο» λαό όπου ανήκεις εσύ και εγώ. Η ατομική ευθύνη είναι αμελητέα σε ότι έχει να κάνει στην σχέση κράτους-λαού γιαυτο δεν είναι άξια αναφοράς στην παρούσα φάση.

Όταν λοιπόν αυτός ο λαός ( στον οποίο επαναλαμβάνω ανήκουμε εσύ και εγώ ) αποφασίζει ότι είναι ευχαριστημένος με αυτό το δικέφαλο τέρας που λέγεται δικομματισμός τότε φέρει ευθύνη και μάλιστα μέγιστη.

Τρόποι αντίδρασης υπάρχουν αλλά δεν είναι επί του παρόντος να τους αναφέρω

Επιγραμματικά μόνο:

Αλλαγή του εκλογικού συστήματος, ενίσχυση των μικρότερων παρατάξεων, είσοδος νέων κομμάτων στην Βουλή κ.α

Θέληση να υπάρχει και όλα γίνονται. Όταν δε δεν υπάρχει θέληση και ο λαός αδιαφορεί εγκληματικά τότε έχουμε σημαντικότατα θέματα όπως το ευρωσυνταγμα και την τελωνιακή ένωση των τούρκων να περνάνε «περίπατο» από την Βουλή χωρίς να πάρει είδηση ο «κυρίαρχος» λαός τη έγκλημα ( κατά εμέ ) διέπραξε εν αγνοία του..

Μίλησες για σιδηρόδρομους π.χ στην Τουρκία. Ξέρεις τη πείνα επικρατεί στην Τουρκία; To ξέρεις ότι η βιτρίνα της Τουρκίας η Κωνσταντινούπολη δέχεται 200-300.000 ( αν δεν κάνω λάθος ) εσωτερικούς μετανάστες από την Αν. Τουρκία; Για να μην αναφερθώ στα πόσα εκατομμύρια δεν έχουν νερό η ηλεκτρικό στα σπίτια τους.
Το μετρό της Κωνσταντινούπολις το έχεις δει. Πληθυσμιακά η Πολις είναι τετραπλάσια από την Αθήνα και όμως το μετρό της χιλιομετρικά μπορεί να είναι και μικρότερο από της Αθήνας.

Που θέλω να καταλήξω, ότι όταν κάνεις αυτού του είδους της συγκρίσεις καλό είναι να κοιτάς την δομή ενός κράτους συνολικά και όχι αποσπασματικά.
















Υ.Γ ) Κουβ. ήρεμα με την μετάφραση


Αγαπητέ Konstantinoupolis δε διαφωνώ επί της ουσίας με αυτά που γράφεις! :)
Το μόνο σημείο που έχω λίγο διαφορετική άποψη ( όχι ότι δεν είναι αλήθεια αυτά που λες - αν και υπερβάλεις ) είναι το εξής :
Χρόνια μας έχει φάει η μαρμάγκα να σχολιάζουμε 3-4 δείκτες από την τουρκία και έτσι να είμαστε χαλαροί και ευχαριστημένοι αφού δίπλα μας πεινάνε.
Χρόνια θυμάμαι την πιπίλα του κάθε άσχετου σε συζητήσεις να πετάει 2-3 νούμερα όπως τον πληθωρισμό στην τουρκία και να ρίχνει και ένα γελάκι του στυλ " ρε μαλάκα 70% πληθωρισμό στην τουρκία , η εκεί πεινάνε ή ο καφές κάνει 1 εκατομμύριο χαχα"
Βέβαια όλοι αυτοί οι γραφικοί τύποι σταμάταγαν έκει , στους αριθμούς που του έπαιρνε (και που πλέον δεν τουσ παίρνει όυτε εκεί , ο πληθωρισμός έχει αποκλιμακωθεί ραγδαία τα τελευταία 3 χρόνια ) .
Ποτέ δεν ανέφεραν την επί δεκαετίας μείωση των ελληνικών εξαγωγών, την ανύπαρκτη ανταγωνιστικότητα της ελληνικής οικονομίας, τις απίστευτες τιμές στην ελλάδα (συγκριτικά με το μέσο μισθό ) κτλπ. (το ωρομίσθιο σήμερα στην ελλάδα σε πάρα πολλές δουλειές είναι 3 ευρώ όσο δηλαδή ένα καφές σε όχι και κεντρική καφετέρια )
Αλλά μέναμε και μένουμε στην ίδια πιπίλα.
Ας ξυπνήσουμε λοιπόν και ας ανοίξουμε τα αυτιά και τα μάτια μας.
Η ευρώπη αλλάζει και πάει μπροστά .
Χώρες του άλλωτε ανατολικού μπλοκ αυτή τη στιγμή πηγαίνουν πολύ καλά και είναι βέβαιο ότι σε λίγο καιρό θα μας έχουν φθάσει αν όχι ξεπεράσει.
Όσο για την Τουρκία , σαφώς είναι μια πολύ αντιφατική χώρα...όμως ας ξεκολήσουμε από την εικόνα που έχει ο μέσος έλληνας για παράγκες παντού.
Παράγκες έχει και επί δεκαετίες τα Λιόσια και το πέραμα.
Έχω μιλίσει πολλές φορές τον τεέυταίο καιρό με άτομα που πήγαν διακοπές στην τουρκία και έμειναν εντυπωσιασμένοι (ειδικά από την κωνσταντινούπολη )
Η πόλη είναι πολύ καθαρή, πανέμορφη,φιλόξενη,φθηνή και ραγδαία αναπτυσσόμενη. (και απίστευτα μαγευτική τις ημέρες του πάσχα )
Και μην ξεχνάμε πάνω από όλα...η τουρκία δεν είναι επί 24 χρόνια μέλλος της ευρωπαικής ένωσης!!! Ότι έχει φτιάξει το έχει φτιάξει μόνη της.
Μπορεί η Κωνσταντινούπολη να χρειάζεται απείρως μεγαλύτερο μετρό για το μέγεθος της αλλά από ότι φαίνεται η τουρκία δεν ξεχνάει την περιφέρεια όπως εδώ...
Εύκολα μπορείς να δεις πόσες πόλεις έχουν τραμ,μετρό κτλπ
Και μεγάλα πανεπιστήμια έχει , και μεγάλα νοσοκομεία και δρόμους .
Λοίπουν πολλά γιατί είναι μια τεράστια χώρα με ραγδαία αύξηση του πληθυσμού. (ειδικά στα αστικά κέντρα όπως είπες )
Καλύτερα όμως να μην σκέφτομαι πως θα ήταν η τουρκία αν ήταν ήδη 24 χρόνια μέλος της ευρωπαικής ένωσης.
Για τώρα και ίσως για αρκετα χρόνια ακόμα μπορούμε να τρώμε το φαγητάκι μας που λέγεται "κατα κεφαλήν ΑΕΠ μεγαλύτερο από της τουρκίας"
Με ρυθμούς ανάπτυξης όμως 10% και εμάς να κλωσσάμε τα αυγά μάλλον δε θα το τρώμε για πολύ.
Και όλα αυτά δεν τα λέω ανταγωνιστικά , μακάρι όλοι οι γειτονές μας να ευημερούν.
Όμως ας κοιτάξουμε και λίγο τα δικά μας τα χάλια σε αρκετά πράγματα .
Η τόνωση του εγωισμού μας με το να λέμε συνέχεια ότι είμαστε πιο πλούσιοι σαν άτομα από τους γείτονες αντί να κοιτάμε που πάνε οι άλλοι πιο δυτικά από εμάς μάλλον δε βοηθάει καθόλου εκτός από το να μας δημιουργεί ψευδαισθήσεις...
Και στην τελική βγάλε έξω την τουρκία , οι τόσες άλλες ευρωπαικές πόλεις?
Διαφωνείς με αυτά που έγραψα για την ισπανία?
Κάποτε ήταν οι τρεις φτωχοί του νότου...
κάποιοι όμως ανέβηκαν στο τρένο...

Και τελειώνω με κάποια νέα ...
Φέτος η Τουρκία αναμένεται να δεχθεί περισσότερα από 20 εκατομμύρια τουρίστες (ρίξτε μια ματιά πόσους είχε το 1990)
Ρεκόρ αύξησης 30 % . ( εμείς λιβανίζουμε αν θα είναι ή δεν θα είναι 5% και μάλιστα σε χρονιά μετά τους ολυμπιακούς... )
Ουδέν άλλο σχόλιο.
Και ας μην επεκταθεί η συζήτηση άλλο σε πολιτικά θέματα , ας ασχοληθούμε με την ουσία αυτού του thread.
ευχαριστώ.

PS: Επειδή είδα ότι πρέπει να έχεις και μια σχέση με κρήτη , είσαι ευχαριστημένος από τις υποδομές της?
Έχει δρόμους? Έχει σοβαρό αεροδρόμιο (για τον αιρθμό τουριστών που δέχεται ) ? Έχει σιδηρόδρομο (ναι, γιατί πρέπει να είναι τόσο κουφό να έχει και η κρήτη σιδηρόδρομο? ) ? Έχει σύγχρονα λιμάνια?
Εύτυχως που έχει ανθρώπους περήφανους και δουλευταράδες , ωραίο κλίμα (με ότι αυτό συνεπάγεται τυμπακι κτλπ ) και πολλά τουριστάκια που γέμισαν τις τσέπες των κατοίκων.
Όμως για την πιο πλούσια περιφέρεια της χώρας σίγουρα θα περίμενε κανείς περισσότερες υποδομές )

[falconi]

nice thread!
urban transportation is very important for a city!
i live in vienna and the metro and tram lines here are perfect, i dont need a car in the city!
in turkey the mass tranportation systems are under devellopment since the late 90 and many cities panned metro and tram lines!

here some turkish projects:

more Turkish cities planned tram lines:

Istanbul (many lines are under construction), Kayseri(finished 2007), Samsun (finished 2010), Isparta, Denizli , Izmit
and Izmir(a nostalgy tram line in the karsiyaka district) !

some links:
Istanbul lines + under construction + planned (http://www.istanbul-ulasim.com.tr/projeler.html)
Kayseri (http://www.kayseri-bld.gov.tr/ulasim/rayli.htm)
Samsun (http://www.samsun.bel.tr/yatirimlari.php)

the new prototyp of the turkish made tram RTE 2005 from the Ulaşım A.Ş Company will be completed january 2006! the production of this new tram will be done together with the german Fahrzeugtechnik Dessau AG and Wossloh-Kiepe!

http://www.turkcadcam.net/haber/images/rte2005-1.jpg
RTE2005 (http://www.turkcadcam.net/haber/2005-05-02.html)


other cities like Ankara, Izmir Bursa, Antalya has heavy/light metrolines or are actually under construction!

i know the problem with the city-busses, they produced only exhaust gases and noise! Before the Izmir-metro finished (2000) i used only the public busses and this busses was very old busses from germany but now izmir has a very modern metro and new turkish made BMC busses with EU Norms.

i hope that the thesalloniki will complete the metro line soon, so i can visit the city and make a tour with it!

@KONSTANTINOUPOLIS:
I dont think that million of istanbullians live without water and electricity!

[Kuvvaci]

Nice thread! As I know Athens transportation system is perfect and developiing day by day...

However do you know what is the main difference between Turkey and Greece? In Greece, government makes transportation systems (uniter system)... In Turkey, municipalties do it. I don't know other countries you mentioned.

BTW are Portugues trains both metro and tram?

[KONSTANTINOUPOLIS]

@ Geroplatanos tha anagasto apo do kai sto eksis na grafo me ta antipathitika greeklish giati pefti metafrasi kai ehoume enohlitikes paremvoles.

Katarhintin tin logiki tou egoismou apo pou tin siberanes sto minima mou?

Ola afta pou egrapses DEN EHOUN KAMIA shesi me to minima mou. Ego prospathisa na theso mia antikimeniki vasi sto zitima. Milisa gia tin Tourkia giati ksero prosopika kapia pragmata, pera apo afta pou eho diavasi. An iksera gia tin Portogalia tha anaferomoun se aftin.

Ehis na mou dosis kapia episima stihia pou na apodiknioun ta legomena sou peri Tourkias?

Filika

[Geroplatanos]

@ Geroplatanos tha anagasto apo do kai sto eksis na grafo me ta antipathitika greeklish giati pefti metafrasi kai ehoume enohlitikes paremvoles.

Katarhintin tin logiki tou egoismou apo pou tin siberanes sto minima mou?

Ola afta pou egrapses DEN EHOUN KAMIA shesi me to minima mou. Ego prospathisa na theso mia antikimeniki vasi sto zitima. Milisa gia tin Tourkia giati ksero prosopika kapia pragmata, pera apo afta pou eho diavasi.

Ehis na mou dosis kapia episima stihia pou na apodiknioun ta legomena sou peri Tourkias?

Filika

Konstantinoupolis ola ayta poy egrafa den anaferontan se ayta poy eipes , milousa genika pairnontas thn eykairia apo ayta poy egrapses! :)
Sou eipa apo thn arxi oti sxedon se ola symfwnw.
Kai eides oti egrapsa epanilimenws oti h tourkia xreiazetai polla akoma, esy mporei na exeis gnwsh pio pollwn pragmatwn omws o perissoteros kosmos menei se ayta pou egrapsa! anyway sygnwmi an sou fanhke oti ta lew gia sena ok?

[Geroplatanos]

Nice thread! As I know Athens transportation system is perfect and developiing day by day...

However do you know what is the main difference between Turkey and Greece? In Greece, government makes transportation systems (uniter system)... In Turkey, municipalties do it. I don't know other countries you mentioned.

BTW are Portugues trains both metro and tram?

Dear Kuvvaci thank you :)
But this thread is about OUT of ATHENS public transport.
And as you conclude from all the details above the situation is not good.
People like me who dont live in athens feel like forgotten.

Perhaps it would be better like you said, i mean if the funding was not coming always from the central government .

By the way from the info of Falconi i am glad ad positivelly surprised about all these new tram/LRT/Metro systems under development/construction in secondary turkish cities (except istanbul,izmir and ankara).

[Urban Girl]

@KONSTANTINOUPOLIS:
I dont think that million of istanbullians live witout water the electricity!

haha who said it? konstantinopolis?
yes thats true, millions live without water but they have cable tv, natural gas system and adsl everywhere;
millions of people live without electricity thats why thousands of illegal immigrants come from eastern europe, afria and mid east everyyear

by the way nice thread, for sure tramways and metro lines will grow fastly in Greece because it has potential but please dont add your lies about Turkey into your conversation, okay?

[KONSTANTINOUPOLIS]

Ides lipon eftases eki pou sou elega apo tin arhi.

Oti pera apo tis orees fotografies kai tis voltes sto istoriko kentro ton gnoston prepi na emvathinoume kai na min parasiromaste apo ta tihon viomata pou mas ehoun dimiourgithi olon afto ton kero ( kai milao genika )

paradigma ama pas sto σια γουρλντ φακτ μπουκ ( oxi oti ine oti pio aksiopisto iparhi )

Alvania kata kefalin eisodima $4,900 kai rithmous anaptiksis 5.6%

Tourkia 7,400$ kai ana. 8.2%

Polonia 12$ kai ana. 5.6%

Portogalia 17.900 kai ana. 1.1%

Ellas 21.300$ kai ana. 3.7%

Min parasirese apo tis fotografies kai cardpostal. Diavase ligo gia tin politiki kai kinoniki katastasi stin tourkia kai meta ta ksanasizitame. To parapano ine aplos ena paradigma.

Kai ohi file mou den iparhi provlima :)

[Geroplatanos]

Dear friend konstantinoupolis i know all these you said για την πολιτική κατάσταση κτλπ δε χρειάζεται να το αναλύσουμε εδώ.
Ας το λήξουμε εδώ το θέμα με την τουρκία και ας πάμε σε άλλες χώρες όπου δεν υπάρχει αυτή η δικαιολογία (περί φτώχειας κτλπ)
Ας μιλήσουμε για ευρώπη.
Ας μιλήσουμε για την επαρχεία στην ελλάδα.
Αν κάποιος έχει φωτογραφίες ας τις δημοσιεύσει παρακαλώ.
Ας μιλήσουμε για το μονοπώλειο του ΚΤΕΛ στη μισή ελλάδα.
Ας μιλήσουμε για αυτά που πρέπει να γίνουν.
Πείτε τις απόψεις σας , εσυ Κωνσταντινούπολη βλέπεις φως ?
Θα γίνει καμιά αναβάθμιση στις αστικές συγκοινωνίες?

[KONSTANTINOUPOLIS]

File mou sou vgeni o egoismos kai ginese ebathis,otan iremisis ta ksanaleme

[falconi]

good that the greeks are rich, but why dont the government build more urban mass transportation in its biggest cities!
I know that in the past many turkish people said that the railwaysystems are the products of the commies and hate it!
but now...
the turkish city administrations want to increase the life quality with such pojects!

for ex: Eskisehir
it is not the richest city in turkey but the municipality works hard and let construct the two tram lines! (extensions are planned)
the mayor know that he can be elected only with good achievement, so he worked hard for the city!

or Izmir:
the city was dirty and polluted even the sea was polluted befor the mayor pristina (rip) started many projects and realized this!
now the city is not 100% perfect, but the lifequality is about 600% better!
the gulf of izmir is so clean, that the people can swim in there!

negative example is adana: the construction goes on and the end is far away! nobody knows when it will be finished!

positive example is Bursa: the constuction of the two metro lines finished withhin 2-3 years!


many many other cities construct or planed tram and metro systems!

Now in turkey are 3 highspeed train lines under construction:

Istanbul-Eskisehir
Eskisehir-Ankara
Ankara-Konya


this is the story of turkey
so, good luck for the greek city for its mass transport systems!

[3emperor]

hello

I think greece do more for their cities like Thessaloniki. only in one city metro or tram system is very bad. learn more about your friends - TURKEY.

They have now 2005

Metro systems in this cities

- Ankara
- Istanbul
- Izmir ( my favorite)http://www.sbox.tugraz.at/home/m/miguyan/bilder/info_izmir/thumbs/TN_izmir-metro1.JPG (+) (http://www.sbox.tugraz.at/home/m/miguyan/bilder/info_izmir/izmir_metro1.jpg) http://www.sbox.tugraz.at/home/m/miguyan/bilder/izmir_/Metro/thumbs/TN_metro_1.JPG(+) (http://www.sbox.tugraz.at/home/m/miguyan/bilder/izmir_/Metro/metro_1.jpg)
- Bursa
- Adana (U.C)
- Gaziantep (planned)
- Antalya (planned)
- Diyarbakir (planned)

tram or light rail systems

- Istanbul
- Eskisehir
- Konya
- Antalya
- Kayseri (planned - U.c)
- Samsun (palnned . U.c)
- Denizli (planned)
- Isparta (planned)
- Trabzon (planned)
- Izmit (planned)

i look optimistic to the greece future,

[LEAFS FANATIC]

Great!!! Another thread turning into a Greece vs. Turkey war.

The topic is about Greek transportation systems in cities other than Athens and what the future holds for them.

Period.

[falconi]

i cant see any war!
where is the war, i wrote only the experience of turkey in this part!

i can also write the experience of vienna, but vienna is a little bit different, because of its politics!
greece, portugal, spain, italy and turkey is in the region and have almost the same development status (mentality)!

how big are the greek cities?
i know that a tram line is effective up 500.000 inhabitants and a metro starting from 1.000.000 inhabitants!

many turkish cities reach the 500.000 and the 1.000.000 border!

[3emperor]

THESSALONIKI
regular service ?
http://www.urbanrail.net/eu/the/thess-city-metro-map.jpg

other cities are under 1mill pop so they can only bulit tram systems.
but there are no plans now

[falconi]

nice project!
the mayor should take the plan in his hands and accelarate this project!
on this map i also see a future extension! NICE! :cheers:

[Kuvvaci]

Dear Kuvvaci thank you :)
But this thread is about OUT of ATHENS public transport.
And as you conclude from all the details above the situation is not good.
People like me who dont live in athens feel like forgotten.

Perhaps it would be better like you said, i mean if the funding was not coming always from the central government .

By the way from the info of Falconi i am glad ad positivelly surprised about all these new tram/LRT/Metro systems under development/construction in secondary turkish cities (except istanbul,izmir and ankara).
My friend, I know the topic, I just pointed that you made an incredible transportation system in Athens and it is too much incredible (I can say that they are the best metro stations in the world)

And this is happened because of central system. In Athens municipaltiy didn't make it, but government did... In Turkey central government doesn't do such things, the munitcipality of each city does....

Also how iare the populations of other cities in Greece?

[Ozcan]

Ides lipon eftases eki pou sou elega apo tin arhi.

Oti pera apo tis orees fotografies kai tis voltes sto istoriko kentro ton gnoston prepi na emvathinoume kai na min parasiromaste apo ta tihon viomata pou mas ehoun dimiourgithi olon afto ton kero ( kai milao genika )

paradigma ama pas sto σια γουρλντ φακτ μπουκ ( oxi oti ine oti pio aksiopisto iparhi )

Alvania kata kefalin eisodima $4,900 kai rithmous anaptiksis 5.6%

Tourkia 7,400$ kai ana. 8.2%

Polonia 12$ kai ana. 5.6%

Portogalia 17.900 kai ana. 1.1%

Ellas 21.300$ kai ana. 3.7%

Min parasirese apo tis fotografies kai cardpostal. Diavase ligo gia tin politiki kai kinoniki katastasi stin tourkia kai meta ta ksanasizitame. To parapano ine aplos ena paradigma.

Kai ohi file mou den iparhi provlima :)

Turkey's GDP has already exceeded 10.500$ :D
I know it's hard to keep up with the speed Turkey is developing:D

[george_ts]

@geroplatanos

giati tetia miseria re file???
you know that misery brings more misery.... look at athens why you thing athens the last 30 years (with exception the 90s until now) where so ugly...
the misery... the thinking of the people this cant be right and you can see that in the city it self...
and you know there are people that I met and kept telling me "tora o kalatrava mas marane" file ... wrong a city needs also an calatrava (vision) and also the realists, and believe me I know what I am saying...
and Athens isnt that bad... just an matter of who you look at the city...(file megalosa germania ksero ti tha pi taksi na kseris)you see if I would see with eyes as you are see athens I would never return but instead I am positive and see everything positive I know that it will improve (and athens does improve as other cities in greece as well) but its how you see everything...
look today after work I went to platia kotzias as you know there are from 05/05 to 22/05 daily events in diferent squares and of course in zappion as the national garden as well events regards the fiest of Flowers its fantastic I love it really...
look at Dora Backogianni the Mayo of athens I hear a lot from the people but you know what I hear mostly (from friends who live in the athens municipality) she brought with her positive attitude live to the city and all the events and how she tryes to bring everything to the human scale really... great job from her (will post later some pics from today)
anyway thats from me.... :)

[asst31]

I agree with george...
Anyway even tram projects aren't realistic in cities of 60-100.000.I could imagine a tram system in Larissa.For the rest a renewed bus system should be able to satisfy the needs of most other cities.
I ' like to read more opinions from residents of Thessaloniki.Do they prefer a metro system of 10 km or a tram system of 50km?

[Christos7]

All of this is nice and rosey, but let us look at the populations of these cities and their needs.

Athens is a huge city, and needed first works and got them.

Thessaloniki is a major city of about 1.000.000 people and needs a metro. Plans are in the works for this.


The rest of the cities in Greece, are all under 400,000 people. I would like to see the population comparisons of some of the cities being compared. I would like to see the populations of:


Metro systems in this cities

- Ankara
- Istanbul
- Izmir ( my favorite) (+) (+)
- Bursa
- Adana (U.C)
- Gaziantep (planned)
- Antalya (planned)
- Diyarbakir (planned)

tram or light rail systems

- Istanbul
- Eskisehir
- Konya
- Antalya
- Kayseri (planned - U.c)
- Samsun (palnned . U.c)
- Denizli (planned)
- Isparta (planned)
- Trabzon (planned)
- Izmit (planned)


For example. Turkey is a country of some 70.000.000 people I am sure their cities have high numbers....


I saw a Portugese city on the first page, what are the populations of their major cities and what are the transport situations? The two countries are so similar it is a good comparison. I am talking more than just one city, but lets look at the overall.


Now I do not disagree with the general conception and bettering cities from all over Greece, but we must look at things realistically. Metro in any city other than the main two is not realistic. Tram lines maybe, but are they worth it? Will they really help? Upgrading bus systems and road works should definately be a priority. But these cities are not big, traffic is not real bad, I drove through Patra last summer and it did not take me very long.... I am curious how bad traffic actually gets there.

[Geroplatanos]

@geroplatanos

giati tetia miseria re file???
you know that misery brings more misery.... look at athens why you thing athens the last 30 years (with exception the 90s until now) where so ugly...
the misery... the thinking of the people this cant be right and you can see that in the city it self...
and you know there are people that I met and kept telling me "tora o kalatrava mas marane" file ... wrong a city needs also an calatrava (vision) and also the realists, and believe me I know what I am saying...
and Athens isnt that bad... just an matter of who you look at the city...(file megalosa germania ksero ti tha pi taksi na kseris)you see if I would see with eyes as you are see athens I would never return but instead I am positive and see everything positive I know that it will improve (and athens does improve as other cities in greece as well) but its how you see everything...
look today after work I went to platia kotzias as you know there are from 05/05 to 22/05 daily events in diferent squares and of course in zappion as the national garden as well events regards the fiest of Flowers its fantastic I love it really...
look at Dora Backogianni the Mayo of athens I hear a lot from the people but you know what I hear mostly (from friends who live in the athens municipality) she brought with her positive attitude live to the city and all the events and how she tryes to bring everything to the human scale really... great job from her (will post later some pics from today)
anyway thats from me.... :)


Dear George , i feel i am attacked from averyone and unfortunatelly i am missunderstood.
And like always we turn again to Athens....
This thread was for the people who dont live in Athens.
I know that very few in this forum live out of Athens so perhaps they dont have the feeling .
I agree with what you say generally.
The misery word originally was used in my title about the public transport out athens.
And i would like to use another word but i cant.
When i say some "bad" words its because i want things to be better and not because i want to create impressions.
And since you ask me giati tetoia mizeria , μιζέρια είναι να πληρωνει το κράτος την ανανέωση και τη συντήρηση του στόλου των λεοφωρείων στην αθήνα και τα επαρχιακά αστικά κτελ να λιμοκτονούν.
Μιζέρια είναι κάθε πρωί να μπαίνεις σε ένα σαράβαλο λεοφωρείο με γερμανικές επιγραφές παντού και που βγάζει μαυρίλα από την εξάτμιση επειδή δεν έχει περάσει από ΚΤΕΟ ποτέ. Μιζέρια είναι να μου λες για καλατράβα ενώ η πόλη που ζεις έχει ένα κολυμβητήριο που δεν έχει να πληρώσει το ρεύμα , μιζέρια είναι να σου λένε σου φτιάχνω σχολές πανεπιστημίου και ύστερα απο 15 χρόνια οι περισσότερες να μην έχουν ακόμα κτήριο ...μιζέρια είναι 24 χρόνια ευρώπη και ακόμα να φτιάχνεται ο αυτοκινητόδρομος αθήνα θεσσαλονίκη κτλπ κτλπ
Σταματάω εδώ και ίσως πάλι να κατηγορηθώ .

Πιστέυω όμως ότι αξίζουμε κάτι καλύτερο.

[Geroplatanos]

I agree with george...
Anyway even tram projects aren't realistic in cities of 60-100.000.I could imagine a tram system in Larissa.For the rest a renewed bus system should be able to satisfy the needs of most other cities.
I ' like to read more opinions from residents of Thessaloniki.Do they prefer a metro system of 10 km or a tram system of 50km?

Dear asst31
Lets do the basic.

1) Lets have modern,clean, environmental friendly buses for all the cities.
I never saw an order for new buses (the last 20 years) for all the other cities of greece and of course never the state has contributed to this.
Only old and second hand. Why?
The shits live there?

2) as about trams , the cities where it could be very nice a small tram are :
Patras (180,000) Heraclion (150,000) Larissa (130,000) and perhaps Volos (120,000) and of course thessaloniki (~1,000,000)
Why is it unrealistic for these cities?

3) about your question , me personally i would prefer (if it was possible allready many years ago) a 50-100 Km LRT network for thessaloniki.

[Geroplatanos]

All of this is nice and rosey, but let us look at the populations of these cities and their needs.

Athens is a huge city, and needed first works and got them.

Thessaloniki is a major city of about 1.000.000 people and needs a metro. Plans are in the works for this.


The rest of the cities in Greece, are all under 400,000 people. I would like to see the population comparisons of some of the cities being compared. I would like to see the populations of:


Metro systems in this cities

- Ankara
- Istanbul
- Izmir ( my favorite) (+) (+)
- Bursa
- Adana (U.C)
- Gaziantep (planned)
- Antalya (planned)
- Diyarbakir (planned)

tram or light rail systems

- Istanbul
- Eskisehir
- Konya
- Antalya
- Kayseri (planned - U.c)
- Samsun (palnned . U.c)
- Denizli (planned)
- Isparta (planned)
- Trabzon (planned)
- Izmit (planned)


For example. Turkey is a country of some 70.000.000 people I am sure their cities have high numbers....


I saw a Portugese city on the first page, what are the populations of their major cities and what are the transport situations? The two countries are so similar it is a good comparison. I am talking more than just one city, but lets look at the overall.


Now I do not disagree with the general conception and bettering cities from all over Greece, but we must look at things realistically. Metro in any city other than the main two is not realistic. Tram lines maybe, but are they worth it? Will they really help? Upgrading bus systems and road works should definately be a priority. But these cities are not big, traffic is not real bad, I drove through Patra last summer and it did not take me very long.... I am curious how bad traffic actually gets there.


Dear christo
thanks for getting into the topic :)
I will try to answer to your questions/comments :

1) Athens was first . Well done and bravo. Still needs more subway, it seems it rows

2) thessaloniki , although late it can still catch up with the others....
no city in europe with population of 1,000,000 is served only by buses like thessaloniki today. Metro like you said in announced , i hope it will go on fast.

3) who said about metro in other cities excpet the big 2 ?

4)

3) Patra
since you dont live there you cant say for sure if it has traffic or not.
for the local people traffic is something else then the traffic for the people of athens obviously , but still is a problem.
only old buses today.
a tram line starting from rio untill west side with 1-2 vertical lines to the south would be perfect.


4)Heraclion , Larissa similar problems with patra , heraclion is worst because of narow streets.

5) Tram lines maybe, but are they worth it? Will they really help? Upgrading bus systems and road works should definately be a priority. But these cities are not big, traffic is not real bad, I drove through Patra last summer and it did not take me very long.... I am curious how bad traffic actually gets there



Like they worked in all over europe they will also work here , people need to escape "from the misery" like george said above.
Upgrading bus systems??? I AGREE , But..... where did you see that happening ? :)
Thats why i say again lets do the basics at least and we see the steps after....
As about patra perhaps skaros could help us more with the traffic there but for sure you cant have a clear idea only from passing 1-2 times.

As about turkey and the cities you mentioned , perhaps friends from turkey can help us or the beautiful homepages of urbanrail.net

[GrigorisSokratis]

Hey why all the comparissions are made with Turkey

What about our Italian, Bulgarian or Serbian neighbors????

Let's not be so monotones!

[Geroplatanos]

Hey why all the comparissions are made with Turkey

What about our Italian, Bulgarian or Serbian neighbors????

Let's not be so monotones!

YEP! :) and why only neighbors? all EU countries are in the game

[Geroplatanos]

Some usefull info (a few german tram cities ) for all the dear friends :)
Wuerzburg (GERMANY) - Population 132,000

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/de/trams/Wuerzburg/GTE/gt_e_03.jpg

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/de/trams/Wuerzburg/GTN/wsb261_e0003040.jpg

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/de/trams/Wuerzburg/GTN/gtn_02.jpg



Oberhausen (GERMANY) - population 220,000

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/de/trams/Oberhausen/oberhausen210_cw006829.jpg

Kassel (GERMANY) - population 196,000

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/de/trams/Kassel/NGT6C/betriebsunfall_2.jpg

Jena (GERMANY) - population 102,000

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/de/trams/Jena/GT6M/jena603_e0006459.jpg

[Christos7]

file Geroplatanos,

'i feel i am attacked from averyone and unfortunatelly i am missunderstood.'

Do not feel this way. Nobody is attacking we are just discussing.


Overall like I said, I agree with you. I think everbody here pretty much agrees in theory. Athens is good at the moment and getting better.... Thessaloniki is next in line, about time kai mpravo....


For the rest of the cities, we agree that the buses should 100% be brought up to acceptable level, newer and more modern. This is important. Also, I can see a small light tram in each of the cities mentioned (Patra, Larisa etc) to better public transport, maybe in the future this can happen. Metro like we said is out of the question, they are to small, but a tram can help.

Can I ask you, apo pou eisai?

[asst31]

2) as about trams , the cities where it could be very nice a small tram are :
Patras (180,000) Heraclion (150,000) Larissa (130,000) and perhaps Volos (120,000) and of course thessaloniki (~1,000,000)
Why is it unrealistic for these cities?.

Actually i'm a big fan of trams,i 've used them a lot abroad.What i'm asking is if that kind of system fits the needs of those cities especially considering the costs.Like you said it's better start from the basics, buses are the backbone of trasportation systems.Then i think some cities could consider a low cost enviromental-friendly solution like trolleys: you would be surprised to see how a trolley bus in priority lanes(λεωφοριολωριδες ) can do the same job a tram does!

Δε θελω να παρεξηγηθω και συμμεριζομαι τους προβληματισμους σου,συζητηση κανουμε.. :) Εχεις δικιο οτι σε πολλες περιπτωσεις η κατασταση ειναι τραγικη.Τα λεωφορεια π.χ. της Πατρας δε μπορουν να χαρακτηριστουν ουτε δευτερο χερι,ειχα να δω τετοια απο την δεκαετια του 80.Αλλα -διορθωσε με αν κανω λαθος- στις περισσοτερες πολεις τα ΜΜΜ δεν ειναι ιδιωτικα ΚΤΕΛ με νοοτροπια της δεκαετιας του 60?Μηπως ειναι και αυτο κομματι του προβληματος?Επισης στις περισσοτερες ευρωπαικες πολεις αντιστοιχου μεγεθους τα ΜΜΜ διαχειριζονται απο τους δημους ,θα πρεπει ισως να αναλαβουν και στην Ελλαδα αντιστοιχες ευθυνες εκμεταλλευομενοι και οσο μπορουν τα προγραμματα της ΕΕ...

[gm2263]

Mia mikri kai grigori apantisi sta Greeglish giati ypopsiazomai oti diaforoi endiaferomenoi xrhsimopoioyn metafrastika programmata edo péra kai den goystarv na anoixei kammia apo tis gnostes syzitiseis.

As mou epitrapei na parathrhso oti isos den tha eprepe naprovalloume ta asxima ths patridas mas `stous xenous (an kai theoro ypokrisia na to paizoume Elvetia apo tin alli). O logos einai oti kai na min stin poun tora, tha ta kratisoun na stin poun argotera. Pistevo oti oso asximo einai na arpazoume apo ta moutra opoion yposiazomaste oti mporei na leie kati asxhmo anti na toy exhghsoume me epixeirhmata (kai to provlima einai oti kai o ellinismos sthn makraioni diadromh toy exei kanei polles vlakeies), allo toso lathos einai to na vgazoume ta aplyta sti fora.

To gegonos oti oi politikoi mas einai en pollois axristoi kata pos fainetai to xeroume opos kai xeroyme oti kai oi megaloi dromoi ektos athinon karkinovatoyn me grioules na mhn afhnoyn na teleiosoun ta tounnel tis kaikias skalas kai me thn egnatia (pou apo tin allh einai ena poly apaititiko ergo, thymizei poly ton aytokinitodromo notiou gallias-italias) na mhn leei na teleiosei, kai me tis sigkoinonies sta nisia na tis thymamai apo palia oti einai ena xontro anekdodo.

Parola ayta, epeidh thn ponao ayth th xora alla den thelo na tin ektheto sta matia allon kai anatolikon alla kai dytikon poy mporei na exoyn xeirotera skata kai sorry gia tin ekfrasi alla ta kryvoun (h bia kai i athliotita orismenonn poleon tis Agglias px einai paroimiodis. ti na leme, kai to ferno san paradeigma, to idio isxiei gia poles xores), gi' ayto to logo kai rixno ta mpinelikia mou (giati sto kato kato ayti einai i gnomi mou) sto forum tou stadia.gr xoris na ektheto ti xora mou se kalothelites kai mi...

Symphonmo me ayta pou leei kai o Konstantinoupolis oson afora tin efthini ekastou enos mas os politon gia ayti tin katantia. Episis, me exorgizei to dilimma toy dikomattismou ti stigmni pou opos fainetai kai ta dyo megala kommata adynatoyn na apeglovistoun apo tin aplhstia k;apoion en pollis ilikiomenon melon tous oi opioi an kai exouyn kavatzarei ta 70 xronia (kai vale...) akoma mas talaiporoyn me ena sindiasmo aplistias, altzheimer kai kakias pou exoun mesa tous.

Leo...

[Geroplatanos]

file Geroplatanos,

'i feel i am attacked from averyone and unfortunatelly i am missunderstood.'

Do not feel this way. Nobody is attacking we are just discussing.


Overall like I said, I agree with you. I think everbody here pretty much agrees in theory. Athens is good at the moment and getting better.... Thessaloniki is next in line, about time kai mpravo....


For the rest of the cities, we agree that the buses should 100% be brought up to acceptable level, newer and more modern. This is important. Also, I can see a small light tram in each of the cities mentioned (Patra, Larisa etc) to better public transport, maybe in the future this can happen. Metro like we said is out of the question, they are to small, but a tram can help.

Can I ask you, apo pou eisai?


Thanks George :) , i have nothing to say more , συμφωνούμε απολύτως. :okay:
Καβάλα αλλά είμαι από ηράκλειο.

[Geroplatanos]

Actually i'm a big fan of trams,i 've used them a lot abroad.What i'm asking is if that kind of system fits the needs of those cities especially considering the costs.Like you said it's better start from the basics, buses are the backbone of trasportation systems.Then i think some cities could consider a low cost enviromental-friendly solution like trolleys: you would be surprised to see how a trolley bus in priority lanes(λεωφοριολωριδες ) can do the same job a tram does!

Δε θελω να παρεξηγηθω και συμμεριζομαι τους προβληματισμους σου,συζητηση κανουμε.. Εχεις δικιο οτι σε πολλες περιπτωσεις η κατασταση ειναι τραγικη.Τα λεωφορεια π.χ. της Πατρας δε μπορουν να χαρακτηριστουν ουτε δευτερο χερι,ειχα να δω τετοια απο την δεκαετια του 80.Αλλα -διορθωσε με αν κανω λαθος- στις περισσοτερες πολεις τα ΜΜΜ δεν ειναι ιδιωτικα ΚΤΕΛ με νοοτροπια της δεκαετιας του 60?Μηπως ειναι και αυτο κομματι του προβληματος?Επισης στις περισσοτερες ευρωπαικες πολεις αντιστοιχου μεγεθους τα ΜΜΜ διαχειριζονται απο τους δημους ,θα πρεπει ισως να αναλαβουν και στην Ελλαδα αντιστοιχες ευθυνες εκμεταλλευομενοι και οσο μπορουν τα προγραμματα της ΕΕ...

Dear asst31 like i wrote in my answer to george above , i can not add something to what you wrote! :) Τα λες πολύ ωραία! Και η ιδέα σου περί trolley τη βρίσκω εξαιρετική !
(π.χ. η Ancona στην ιταλία που έχει πληθυσμό ούτε 80,000 έχει trolley )
* Και εγώ είμαι οπαδός των τραμ και μάλιστα όταν συνδυάζονται με δρόμους αποκλεισμένους για τα αυτοκίνητα (εκεί χάνει λίγο το trolley γιατί ακόμα και αν έχει δική του λωρίδα οι κάφροι οδηγοί την αγνούν συνέχεια )

Για να ανακεφαλαιώσουμε λοιπόν , μιας και από ότι αντιλαμβάνομαι όλοι συμφωνούμε ... ας γίνει μια αρχή με αντικατάσταση όλων των πεπαλαιωμένων λεωφορείων σε όλες τις πολεις με νέα , μοντέρνα και αντιρυππαντικής τεχνολογίας λεωφορεία.
Ας κλείσει το κέντρο κάθε πόλης με τη δημιουργία περισσότερων πεζοδρόμων.
Ας δεσμευθούν εκτάσεις στο κέντρο (όπου υπάρχουν ) η στα προάστια για δημιουργία χώρων πρασίνου.
Ας εξεταστεί σε συνεργασία με τον ΟΣΕ (όπου υπάρχει τρένο ) η δυνατότητα δρομολόγησης προαστιακών συρμών για την κάλυψη της μητροπολιτικής περιοχής .
Ας εξεταστεί η περίπτωση δημιουργίας δικτύου trolley ή τραμ ανάλογα με τον πληθυσμό και τη δομή της πόλης (όλα αυτά φυσικά με σωστές μελέτες )
Νομίζω ότι αν γίνουν αυτά τα βήματα τότε θα αλλάξει πάρα πολύ η κατάσταση προς το καλύτερο . :)

PS : Σε ότι αφορά τα ΚΤΕΛ συμφωνώ ξανά απολύτως. Τέτοια νοοτροπία έχουν του 60.

[Geroplatanos]

To gegonos oti oi politikoi mas einai en pollois axristoi kata pos fainetai to xeroume opos kai xeroyme oti kai oi megaloi dromoi ektos athinon karkinovatoyn me grioules na mhn afhnoyn na teleiosoun ta tounnel tis kaikias skalas kai me thn egnatia (pou apo tin allh einai ena poly apaititiko ergo, thymizei poly ton aytokinitodromo notiou gallias-italias) na mhn leei na teleiosei, kai me tis sigkoinonies sta nisia na tis thymamai apo palia oti einai ena xontro anekdodo.


Ουδέν σχόλιο!

Επίσης ουδέν σχόλιο και για τα υπόλοιπα που γράφεις αγαπητέ gm και ίσως να έχεις δίκιο ότι δεν πρέπει να τα δείχνουμε αυτά σε ξένους αλλά από την άλλη δεν είναι και απαραίτητα κακό.
Κακό είναι να διαστρεβλώνεις την αλήθεια και να δείχνεις ψευδή πράγματα.
Χεστήκαμε αν κάποιος γείτονας το πάρει για να το δείξει σε κάποιο άλλο forum
so what?
Αλλά από την άλλη ο επισκέπτης που είναι να πάει στο ηράκλειο ή στην πάτρα θα δει τα άσχημα είτε τα κρύψουμε από το forum είτε όχι.
Όταν λέμε την αλήθεια δεν έχουμε να φοβηθούμε τίποτα.
Όλοι μας πονάμε την πατρίδα μας και ότι γράφουμε το κάνουμε επειδή μας στεναχωρούν αυτά που βλέπουμε και όχι επειδή θέλουμε το κακό της.
Ας ελπίσουμε όλοι οι διάφοροι καρεκλοκένταυροι στα υπουργεία ,τις νομαρχίες, τους δήμους να αλλάξουν μυαλά.

[KONSTANTINOUPOLIS]

Katarhin na po oti den simfono me tous diaforous ivristikous haraktirismous ( kitahte to ligo pedia )

Defteron, dikeoma ine tou kathenos na ekfrazete opos kai se opia glossa theli arki na min ginete prosvlitikos.

Tora etsi filologika mias kai tethike kai to thema tha ithela na kano mia erotisi ston filo Geroplatano.

Mipos kseris file pia ine i diafora tis disfimisis apo tin antikimeniki pliroforisi?
Esi to arhiko sou minima se pio apo tis 2 parapano katigories tha to katetases?

Ama thelis apantas

[Geroplatanos]

Katarhin na po oti den simfono me tous diaforous ivristikous haraktirismous ( kitahte to ligo pedia )

Defteron, dikeoma ine tou kathenos na ekfrazete opos kai se opia glossa theli arki na min ginete prosvlitikos.

Tora etsi filologika mias kai tethike kai to thema tha ithela na kano mia erotisi ston filo Geroplatano.

Mipos kseris file pia ine i diafora tis disfimisis apo tin antikimeniki pliroforisi?
Esi to arhiko sou minima se pio apo tis 2 parapano katigories tha to katetases?

Ama thelis apantas

Αγαπητέ Konstantinoupolis συγγνώμη αν σου δημιούργησα την εντύπωση ότι έχω αρνητική προδιάθεση απέναντι σου .
Θα σε παρακαλούσα να μην έχεις και εσύ για μένα.
Αν δεις και από τα τελευταία posts ακόμα και αν υπήρχε θέμα πλέον δεν υπάρχει , όλοι συμφωνούμε.
Τώρα σε ότι αφορά την παρατήρηση σου , ναι έχεις δίκιο χρησιμοποιώντας τον όρο "μιζέρια" στον τίτλο της δημοσίευσης δημιουργείται η αίσθηση ότι κάνω δυσφήμηση της χώρας.
Συγγνώμη , λάθος μου , έπρεπε ίσως να γράψω κάπως αλλιώς τον τίτλο , απλά εκείνη τη στιγμή ήμουν λίγο επηρεασμένος , και δε σκέφτηκα καθόλου ότι αυτό το forum το βλέπουν και άλλα άτομα τα οποία ίσως να το εκμεταλευτούν.
Νομίζω ότι τώρα δεν υπάρχει λόγος για αντιπαραθέσεις ας το λήξουμε εδώ.
Επί τη ευκαιρία πες μου και εσύ τις ιδέες σου , τι νομίζεις για αυτά που έγραψα πιο πάνω στην απάντηση μου στον ασστ31 (σε όσα πολύ σωστά αναφέρει ο ιδιος ) ?

[KONSTANTINOUPOLIS]

Ohi file Geroplatane den eho tipota mazi sou ( opos kai me kanena sinathropo mou ) kai min to eklamnavis oti eho kapiou idous antipathia pro to prosopo sou.

Apla kanoume mia sizitisi kai tipota perisotero.

Tora tha miliso gia trena kai ktel pou eho prosopiki ebiria ( opos ekana kai me tin tourkia )

Gia ta trena tha miliso gia tin periodo arhes 1998 me teli 1999 (tin periodo diladi pou imouna stratiotis kai ta iha hrisimopiisi arketa ) -Asheto alla tote kaname 18mino kai an vlepame kapion pou ekane miomeni thitia kata merikous mines, tote ton theorousame san ton evlogimeno tis siras mas. Kati san tin ieri agelada tou lohou :lol: Kai tora ehi pai 12mino :eek: Pos allazoun oi keroi.

To rekor mou me ton kavourniari :lol: ine Athina-Alexandroupoli-Ferres 29 ores :nuts:

Opos katalavenis den itan kai oti kalitero. Parolafta stin hiroteri ebiria pou iha me treno ipetios den itan mono o ose alla poli perisotero ipetios itan o stratos.

Oso gia ta ktel boro na sou po gia ta tou Rethimnou pou gnorizo katastasis. Mou ehi pi taksitzis tou Rethimnou oti iparhi kontra metaksi afton kai ton leforiatzidon. ( mou ipe kai kapies leptomeries alla den legonte )

Prosopika na sou po oti oi odigoi ton ktel rethimnou ( apo aftous pou eho gnorisi ) den ine kai oi kaliteroi epagelmaties. Trehoun san treloi kai ama idika perimenis kai se kamia stasi stin ethniki klafta haralabe. Iparhi megali pithanotita na perasi kai na min prolavis na sikosis to heri sou gia na stamatisi.

To kalo ( apo oti mou ehi pi to soi sto Rethimno ) ine oti o stolos ton ktel tou nomou ehi idi ananeothi kata 70-80% ( isos ligo parapano isos logo parakato ) kai sinehizi na ananeonete kai oti o stathmos ton ktel prokite na figi apo eki pou itan ( mia hara meros itan pantos ) kai tha pai dipla apo tin apothiki tis astinomias me ta katashemena mihanakia ( gia opion gnorizi apo Rethimno kseri pou leo )

Tora gia protasis veltiosis ton MMS tha protimousa na min kano.

Sas afino lipon na sinehisete tin kouventa sas.

[agnwstos]

Μετρό σίγουρα δεν αξίζει τον κόπο σε άλλες πόλεις και δεν θα βγάλει τα λεφτά του.
Αν επεκταθεί της Αθήνας αρκετά και της Θεσσαλονίκης είμαστε ok από αυτό.

Για τις άλλες πόλεις (Πάτρα,Ηράκλειο,Λάρισσα,Βόλος και ίσως Καβάλα) θέλω να υπάρξει τράμ τουλάχιστον,να κάνουν μεγαλύτερους δρόμους και να ανανεώσουν όλα τα λεωφορεία.

Αυτά είναι αρκετά πιστεύω. :P

[vari k.]

From what i saw when i went to Greece is that highways and major roads had improved a LOT, but public transportation like tram and subways were decent

and from the cities mentioned, none of these cities really NEED trains or anything BUT buses except for Athens, and somewhat Thessaloníki. They're all small cities, as long as they get new buses every once a while it's ok.

[Skaros]

From what i saw when i went to Greece is that highways and major roads had improved a LOT, but public transportation like tram and subways were decent

and from the cities mentioned, none of these cities really NEED trains or anything BUT buses except for Athens, and somewhat Thessaloníki. They're all small cities, as long as they get new buses every once a while it's ok.

Probably you visited north Greece cause in Peloponnese the improvements in roads are almost non existent.
Regarding public transportation in other cities i partially disagree.
No one talked about heavy expensive rail systems but probably a light tram that woyld feet very nice to cities like Patras.
Buses of course are the first step (New and eco friendly) but the bus has the disadvantage that stacks in traffic.
In greek cities with their small roads and double parked cars everywhere the buses just take one hour to move some few kms.
So as some other people have already proposed a 2 line tram system for Patra would be very nice , together with some pedestrianized roads in the center and new buses.

[pilotos]

I actually fail to see the advantages of surface rail systems, such as tram, over buses could anyone possibly help me on that?

[vari k.]

Probably you visited north Greece cause in Peloponnese the improvements in roads are almost non existent.
Regarding public transportation in other cities i partially disagree.
No one talked about heavy expensive rail systems but probably a light tram that woyld feet very nice to cities like Patras.
Buses of course are the first step (New and eco friendly) but the bus has the disadvantage that stacks in traffic.
In greek cities with their small roads and double parked cars everywhere the buses just take one hour to move some few kms.
So as some other people have already proposed a 2 line tram system for Patra would be very nice , together with some pedestrianized roads in the center and new buses.

I visited athens, i have family in a neighborhood with a name like Rendi or something not sure...pretty close to olympiakos stadium

Well most of greece's budget probably goes towards major cities like athens and thessaloniki, and perhaps on the islands as well...i doubt they put a lot of focus on the buses of smaller cities, from my experiences...it's similar in other balkan nations as well, including my own

and yea i noticed the double parked cars and narrow streets even in athens...this can be a HUGE problem for transportation because buses can't fit in these neighborhoods, trams can't solve the problem...and it would extremely difficult to put an underground train because it can disturb the foundation of some of the buildings since they are so close together, and on top of it, it would take years and years of work, and billions of dollars to fix this problem because everything is so dense

Idk what patra looks like, but i'm guessing a tram would be the best option for it

[vari k.]

I actually fail to see the advantages of surface rail systems, such as tram, over buses could anyone possibly help me on that?

Holds more people, electric rather than gas, more charming, can be better for traffic because usually they're on the side of the road rather than the middle unlike a bus.

[pilotos]

I visited athens, i have family in a neighborhood with a name like Rendi or something not sure...pretty close to olympiakos stadium

Well most of greece's budget probably goes towards major cities like athens and thessaloniki, and perhaps on the islands as well...i doubt they put a lot of focus on the buses of smaller cities, from my experiences...it's similar in other balkan nations as well, including my own

and yea i noticed the double parked cars and narrow streets even in athens...this can be a HUGE problem for transportation because buses can't fit in these neighborhoods, trams can't solve the problem...and it would extremely difficult to put an underground train because it can disturb the foundation of some of the buildings since they are so close together, and on top of it, it would take years and years of work, and billions of dollars to fix this problem because everything is so dense

Idk what patra looks like, but i'm guessing a tram would be the best option for it

Public transport out of Athens and Thessaloniki is held by private owned companies, that may receive funds only for fleet renewal, fortunately the 2004 Olympics forced many cities to renew their fleets, my city's buses are all new and in excellent condition, better than Athens for sure, but guess what we are paying double fee to use them.

Here (http://www.podilato.gr/misc/%CE%92%CE%99%CE%A9%CE%A3%CE%99%CE%9C%CE%97%20%CE%9A%CE%99%CE%9D%CE%97%CE%A4%CE%99%CE%9A%CE%9F%CE%A4%CE%97%CE%A4%CE%91%20%CE%A4%CE%91%CE%9E%CE%99%CE%9B%CE%A4%CE%91%CE%A1%CE%97%CE%A3%20%CE%A7%CE%A1%CE%97%CE%A3%CE%A4%CE%9F%CE%A3.PPT) you can see a research about the traffic situation in Larisa, which includes the research for the tram project, and after reading the report and the details for the tram, i finally believe that it will be usefull, but it will take time for people to get used to it, and of course hopefully it will be build soon.

[Skaros]

Pilote the public buses companies out of Athens and Thessaloniki DONT receive subsidies from the state.
This is very unfair if we think about the huge debts that these companies have (especially of Athens) and all of us the citizens of other cities should pay just so that Athens and Thessaloniki have "fancy" buses.
As about the buses in Larissa , the fleet is total 48 buses and 27 of them are new citaro type.
The number is quite small so it is possible to find the funds for buying new buses.
But anyway congratulations , its a good example for other greek cities to begin renewing their fleet! :)

Here in Patra the number of buses is double (~100) and the private company has big debts also (left from the period when they were public).
So it is almost impossible to buy new buses , we pay the most expensive ticket in Greece for moving with buses of 15-30 years old.
Shame.

Well most of greece's budget probably goes towards major cities like athens and thessaloniki, and perhaps on the islands as well...i doubt they put a lot of focus on the buses of smaller cities, from my experiences...it's similar in other balkan nations as well, including my own

Vari Karin thank you for your answer , well we have enough of promises from our dear politicians - the last 27 years of Greece in EU- about the development of the country out of Athens.
In my opinion for the almost 3 decades of receiving EU funds many places are still forgotten from the central government.
At least we have the right to complain and not just shut up.

[pilotos]

Well i am not aware of the economic details of those companies, and i didn't meant that they are receiving extra funds, what i mean is that their buses are paid by the state, and in a way they are forced to have low fees.

[Bel Ludovic]

Well, try living in the UK. Outside London (which has excellent public transport, despite what its disgruntled inhabitants tell you), the situation is similar.

The UK is the fifth largest economy in the world and yet neither of its two largest conburbations outside London (Birmingham and Manchester) have Metros.

Manchester has a few tram lines and Birmingham just one, which opened in 1998. It has struggled to get the government to fund even a small 2km extension of this tramline, and the government is still reluctant - so, ten years later, there's nothing happening.

Leeds and Liverpool were both encouraged to go for tram schemes - until the government changed its mind and scrapped them, claiming they were too expensive.

Large cities like Bristol, Bradford, Leicester, Coventry, Cardiff and Stoke-on-Trent have only buses and some heavy rail. Compared with France, Germany and Spain, it's pretty pathetic.

But it will never change, because whatever the government, our Finance Ministry (called the Treasury) is too obssessed with 'rates of return' to be interested in investing in infrastructure outside London - however strong the moral case may be. Even in London, it's a battle to get the money. The Treasury just doesn't get it. They don't believe in the intangible benefits of infrastructure investment, like the Spanish do, for example. The Spanish seem to have a lot of faith that doing these things really well, no matter what the cost, will be eventually reap rewards.

Just another cultural difference between the UK and the rest of Europe, I guess.

[Skaros]

@Bel thank you for the analysis, i was expecting what you wrote about finance minister and his ministry perception...
Liverpool has only buses???(!) and Birmingham only one tram line and buses?
I did not know though that things are like that, its a pity for a big country like UK...

[gm2263]

I too am surprised by the UK situation given the fact that a) London presumably has already the largest urban public transport system in the world with approx 400km underground and suburban lines, and b) in Turkey there is metro in Istanbul (not at all adequate but it's there and rapidly developing with an upcoming underwater link between the Asian and European sides) Izmir and Ankara (like this (http://www.railway-technology.com/projects/turkey/)).

I mean, I imagine the situation must be different in France, Spain and Germany... Even in Greece, Thessaloniki with 1.2+ mn population will have a basic metro system by 2013 or something...

[Sachsenpark]

Well if things go well Thessaloniki will have at the first phase 2 metrolines of 15 km. And plans for new extensions are on progress. I find this really good, but the reason why, is that Thessaloniki and Athens cannot have trams; that wouldn't be functional in any way.. It wouldn't simply work.
So in Manchester may buses be really enough to move easily or even trams. Not all cities need a subway system..

[Skaros]

Both cities can have trams in my opinion , its just a matter of correct implementation.
When you pedestrianize roads and when you give priority to the tram it can do a really good job. But if (like Athens) you stop it every few hundred meters with a traffic light , or if you put stations very very often then probably it will fail.I have seen the tram working very well in some european countries.
Thessaloniki is a special case. From one perspective a metro is necessary at least for the wider centre of the city and is the only way to improve the traffic problem. But from the other side the people wanted always a metro because it was a political game and in a way a promise of every government of the last 2-3 decades. I have never seen any serious tram proposals , just because every one was focused on the metro and there was no discussion about anything else.

And anyway to return to our discussion a fair state should care equally about all its citizens. (keeping the analogy of course).
I wonder why we have to be second class citizens.
I wonder why we have to pay for Athens and Thessaloniki having new buses for free.
Of course we know the answer , political cost. Larger population , bigger cost , who gives a s...t for smaller cities , let them live in their misery.

[agnwstos]

Is there any tram proposed or u/c for any greek city?
I hear many things lately for many many cities but I don't know whats happening.

Larisa is going to have a tram system by 2013 for the Mediterranean games for sure or is just a vision?

[skyduster]

Both cities can have trams in my opinion , its just a matter of correct implementation.
When you pedestrianize roads and when you give priority to the tram it can do a really good job. But if (like Athens) you stop it every few hundred meters with a traffic light , or if you put stations very very often then probably it will fail.I have seen the tram working very well in some european countries.


I've always felt that there's nothing wrong with the Athens Tram itself. The reason why it's a "failure" is because it was intended as a longer-distance transport medium, substituting what should have been a line of the Metro in its place.

Trams are excellent, and should serve as a complement to the Metro system, not as a competitor...and I think that's where the problem lies: when people take the Tram from Glyfada to city centre, expecting a swift ride on what's supposed to be a shorter-distance transport medium. Of course, it's not the people's fault, when the tram is the only option in the south and southeast valley for longer-distance commutes.

I support an extension of the Tram system, all over the valley! But this must accompany an expansion of the Metro and Proastiakos networks (the south and souteast suburbs desperately need the Metro to serve them). Once all three networks are expanded to their fullest potential, it will all come together. I think that the extension of Metro line 2 to Glyfada will help alleviate the problem, by giving residents of the southeast suburbs a swifter option to the city centre...this will then allow the Tram to serve a more proper role: shorter-distance commutes. But the Metro needs more extensions into the south suburbs, in order for the Tram to fully serve a more proper role.

[Soul_13]

Bel thank you for the analysis, i was expecting what you wrote about finance minister and his ministry perception...
Liverpool has only buses???(!) and Birmingham only one tram line and buses?
I did not know though that things are like that, its a pity for a big country like UK...

The UK is the fifth largest economy in the world and yet neither of its two largest conburbations outside London (Birmingham and Manchester) have Metros. Manchester has a few tram lines and Birmingham just one, which opened in 1998. It has struggled to get the government to fund even a small 2km extension of this tramline, and the government is still reluctant - so, ten years later, there's nothing happening. Leeds and Liverpool were both encouraged to go for tram schemes - until the government changed its mind and scrapped them, claiming they were too expensive.
)

Actually that's not entirely true. West Midlands (the Birmingham conurbation) has an extensive diesel rail system with around 60 stations serving the Birmingham council as well as the Metropolitan area (Solihull, Black Country, Wolverhampton etc.)

Birmingham:
http://www.networkwestmidlands.com/t...ap%20jan08.png

The same applies for Manchester.
http://www.gmpte.com/pdfmaps/GMPTERaildiagA4.pdf

Plus a high speed tram system to be extended by 2012:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/manchester/trav...k_map_2006.pdf

Liverpool has a proper Metro as well as Glasgow and Newcastle.
http://www.merseyrail.org/
http://www.nexus.org.uk/wps/wcm/connect/Nexus/Metro
http://www.spt.co.uk/subway/

The main problem is due to the government being reluctant to finance extensions and upgrades of the existing systems and also new heavy metro systems with underground stations (last one built was back in the 70s). There is a "Value for money" point system in place for every city competing for Government funding that it doesn't seem to apply for London

[Kuvvaci]

may I ask, how are the public buses at the other cities of Greece? Could you show photos?

[Sachsenpark]

As for Thessaloniki go to www.oasth.gr
you can get there a good clue

[agnwstos]

may I ask, how are the public buses at the other cities of Greece? Could you show photos?

In my city buses are alright,just with few exceptions. :)

[Sachsenpark]

Very informative agnwstos. At least you could name your city ..
some pics or links would be helpful too

[AVassilios]

OK, you're all talkin how bad the busses are, but post pics! I know on many ilands they are/were bad! Rhodos for example has now very good busses! post pics pls!

[Kuvvaci]

^^ I agree. Somebpdy must post pics of the photos of the buses out of Thess and Athens.

[pilotos]

Well what do you expect to see, in my city i said that the buses are new and in good condition, generally the 2004 Olympics gave opportunities for fleet renewal in many of our cities.

Those are the buses, most of them are Mercedes Citaro, and the rest are second handed Articulated buses.
http://www.ktelast-larisas.gr/images/web/19.jpg

[AVassilios]

Thanks pilotos, but how many Citaros and how many second hands are riding in Larisa?

[SouthernEuropean]

hmm nice buses in Larisa.

[pilotos]

Well here (http://www.ktelast-larisas.gr/Data/STOLOS_LARISAS.pdf) you can check the fleet, there are 48 buses in total.

[AVassilios]

I don't know how it is in other cities in Greece but be proud of this fleet! we in zurich here have percental less new busses then Larisa! Our trolleybus fleet has much more O 405 then you in Larisa. Normal thermal O 405 busses are now here removed by new Neoplan, but i think there are still some in service. Doesn't matter here, i think it isn't really such a misery out of Athens. If yes, why aren't there privat rivalry? :lol:

[ellis896]

in Thessaloniki most of the buses are new...some only are from the past and they do have few more years 'til they stop operate and go to another city(like Patra)

[christos-greece]

Well what do you expect to see, in my city i said that the buses are new and in good condition, generally the 2004 Olympics gave opportunities for fleet renewal in many of our cities.

Those are the buses, most of them are Mercedes Citaro, and the rest are second handed Articulated buses.
http://www.ktelast-larisas.gr/images/web/19.jpg

Larissa has Very Nice Buses... :cheers:

[Skaros]

^^ I agree. Somebpdy must post pics of the photos of the buses out of Thess and Athens.

Kuvvaci here is a small attempt.
Patra has ~100 buses. Almost all of them are second hand. The majority comes from northwest EU countries and some come from Thessaloniki.
Though there was an effort to modernize the fleet with some "newer" second hand buses still the situation is not so good.
Its a pitty for a city like Patra to have such public busses. The reasons are many, some are analyzed in previous pages of this thread.

http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/8977/patrabus1vq4.jpg

http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/1945/patrabus2db2.jpg

[SouthernEuropean]

In Trikala,Thessaly most of the buses,maybe all of them now are like these ones:

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/1029/trikabusit1.jpg

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/7798/astikotrikalonpd6.jpg

and here is a bus from the neighboring city of Ioannina,Epirus:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2136/2155342451_9cbdaf04c9.jpg?v=0

[ellis896]

nice pics!
im thinking to create a topic for Thessaloniki buses in Thessaloniki thread