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gm2263

July 13th, 2004, 11:31 AM

Allow me to make an incision here and post my views, as I have been watching this forum for quite a long time:

1. Note on Greek reactions on anti-Greek attitudes in this forum:

I believe that Greeks are right about many things but they also have the tendency to come in a conversation like a bull in a glass house, destroying the first impression and a potential positive inclination of their interlocutors with their hasty attitude to jump into conclusions. I have seen this thing happening many times in this forum where some hot-blooded nationalistic (I know I will raise some red flags here but this is the word unfortunately) hot blooded Greek “patriots” that stealthily hang around this forum and instead of posting pictures or otherwise contributing, they wait for what in their views is constitutes a challenge and come in the middle of a discussion and ruin everything. At least one of them was banned after telling off half of this forum's participants Greek or non-Greek who have the right to express their opinions, pro or anti-Greek. I am glad that this forum hasn't been plagued by this attitude and that the rest of the Greeks here behave themselves and contribute.

2. Note on the various syndromes relating to our Greek ancestry and other stories.

I am sometimes fed up with the chilidish attitudes of many Greeks that because our ancestors built the acropolis the rest of the world owes to us or will be owing to us till the end of the time. I have every right to believe that although we (Greeks, Hellenes or whatever) as a nation did HUGE contributions to what is nowadays known as "western civilisation", we rested on our laurels and did not prove to the rest of the world that we are worthy of our ancestry. This is something that can be accomplished through hard work and positive attitude and not simply whining over some old ruins no matter how precious they are (and they are DAMN PRECIOUS I'm telling you).

To continue, it is a rather discouraging thing that many Greeks are simply obsessed nationalistic creatures filled with inferiority complexes and many times display a highly empathetic and emotionally unstable attitude when challenged to present their views and arguments on national issues (although this is a characteristic of many immature nationalities and North Americans in their vast majority are part of this too, despite the fact that, after all, the 9/11 events would have been unbearable for any nation on this planet).

3. On the other hand, Greeks have MANY POINTS to justify their attitudes as, although monkey (whom I respect for his argumentation and methodical presentation of his thoughts on screen here) might have been fed up with the recycling of the same things again and again by many Greeks, and probably students (BTW what's your age mate?) who go to the UK ill-equipped linguistically (in other words they don't speak adequately good English to perform at degree level) and instead of mixing with the rest of the UK (or international) students, they isolate themselves in a corner at a cafeteria or the main refectory :weirdo: , and they act in a manner that gives their country a bad name with their defficient and immature attitudes. This is where you have a disaster, since nobody wants to come across noisy people with bad attitudes that behave like conquerors (we gave you everything 2000 years ago and when you were hanging from the oak trees we built the Parthenon, blah blah blah :horse: ) in a country where they chose to go as guests to study in the first place and haven't been dragged in by force.

If we then remove the cries of the Greeks that they feel that everybody owes them (and the western world sure owes them a lot but that's another story) and we isolate only their appeals with regards to the history of the last 20-30 years we will see the following paradoxes, regardless of the noise generated by our mediterranean temperament:

a. The US methodically and systematically tried to push to the rest of the world the idea that during the 1980's (and the 1990's) Greece and Athens was an incubator for terrorism and that whoever went to Athens was entering a war zone. This fact is corroborated by many Travel advisories issued by the US department of State and other authorities especially during the 1980's that costed Greece millions of US$ from tourist income despite the fact that the US and UK victims of terrorism in Athens over 30 years (a couple of dozens of people) were just a fraction of the ones counted in a single attack which took place in US soil (Oklahoma city) by a US citizen (Timothy Mc Veigh) on a US government building (the Murrah building). I am amongst the ones who sent my sincere condolences to the UK Embassy in Athens when the Brigadeer General Saunders was ASSASINATED (and not killed or executed as wrongly written by some Greek press) by the now dismantled 17th of November terrorist group. Some say actually that it was the Brits (thanks to the MI5 and the Scotland Yard - they helped really a lot) who helped Greeks to put a finger on this terrorist group, while the Americans who have suffered by far the most victims by this organisation, used them and their actions as leverage to push Greeks to accept unfavourable conditions in their international affairs otherwise they would suffer yet another "travel advisory" in case of no compliance.

I mean let's get reasonable: I certainly don't feel proud that it took 30+ years to track down and neutralise a terrorist group that was not the most competent or the most organised in Europe, sure. But there have not been any mass bombings in Greece, there have not been explosions on public places like the IRA bombings during the early 1990's in London (Victoria Station, the City, Canary Wharf, and mortar shots to the Whitehall and Heathrow - check it!!!) which, although they have not been utterly lethal, still they were spectacular. Yet, nobody issued travel advisories for London or Northern Ireland (another sad story altogether).

b. although Greece did whatever was humanly possible (and invited specialists from a group of nations including the US, the UK, Australia, Israel, Russia, etc, as well as the NATO overall) to put together the 2004 Olympic games security in order to counter threats that Greece did NOT initiate or otherwise invoke with its actions, numerous English speaking papers around the globe started to re-iterate the same storyline about security, da da da, although their countries were involved in the inplementation of the Athens 2004 Olympic Games C4I (Computers, Communications, Command, Control & Intelligence). In fact, Greek people accepted security measures that were not usual in this part of the world, where telecoms will be scanned, e-mails will be intercepted, phonecalls will be eavesdropped and even I, if I attempt to go to the US, next year, I may come across a frowned officer telling me stand off the line and provide them with a bio-sample (hopefully not blood or sperm :D ), because somebody read what I write here. So, where's the problem, especially with the Australian press and mass media? or is it concern for security or their pockets for lost contracts? I mean, excuse me :D

C. The issue of Cyprus is rather chaotic and I can assure you that many people in Greece would probably like to have it resolved without having to break a sweat. The point is: at what cost? Sure, mainland Greece has a HUGE responsibility for their coup d' etat in 1974 in Cyprus which invoked the eager attempt of Turkey to invade and occupy 40% of the island. The problem is: Why the international community hasn't been as keen to solve the Cyprus issue as it was to go and, say liberate Kuwait in 1991? Are you aware of the fact that, during his last visit (mid 90's? ) even Bill Klinton apologised for the attitude of the west government during the years 1967-1974 (the Dictatorship) and even before? Now, one might say that it was the Greeks responsibility to clean their own mess but still, if a US President apologises, then something bad, awfully bad must have happened back then and the expression "back then" actually refers even to the first years of cold war, for those who know.

d. The funny thing about this forum is that although there should have been the Turks who would be utterly hostile against Greece, on the contrary, I see other nationalities that I didn't know my country had anything to do with them.

I mean, OK, the Aussies may be over-criticising about the games and probably, the best thing to do with them would be to conduct good games to shut their loud mouths. Or some other guys, that may be thinking that Greece is still all about Moussaka, Souvlaki, Syrtaki (I hate it!!! ), sunny hot islands where ugly locals with dark skin complexion, hairy chests and big moustaches looking at their blonde and blue-eyed little sisters with bad intent, ready for "kamaki" (the English word is "harpoon", meaning to make passes to a woman in this context). Or I can accept bad comments about the Greek Taxi drivers (some of them deserve a good treatment with a blowtorch up their orifices I can tell you this). This is not surprising as stereotypes (or real, yet vividly presented images) are quite common as they are relayed between different nationalities. (Why do the Brits call the French "frogs"? Think about it!!! :D)

What stunned me though is the venomous attitude of a character from Croatia probably, called Violentjack, whose attitude towards my country was by far the worst I have even encountered. Talking about the definition of pure hate, not discontent or adolescent nationalistic anger to cover other personality deficits, I mean pure hate and obviously for no reason. I was planning for a big answer in a particular thread, but thank God he was banned, otherwise, I don't know what I would have done with this guy. He is the only one that managed to drive me mad but again, the mods have been quicker than me and I have to thank them for that. I mean, THIS is what would drive me mad, not some misinformed forumers of journalists.

To end: I don't doubt that in many of the cases the international media and press may (I say may) have a point. The problem is whether all these [ad nauseam repeated reports about the bad aspects of the Athens 2004 preparations are done in good faith (constitude bona fide actions as we used to say in the university) or are simply very good occasions for some (example: CNN) to express their superiority complexes towards a country that we were used to think about its sun, beaches, etc, and not its stadiums highways and urban rail and/or skyscrapers, whenever we will build new ones (and time is short :D). I mean consider this BBC journalist, of course she has the right to try to infiltrate the main stadium but we also have the right to arrest her, make her see the inside of a Greek police station for some hours, (not the best place in the world to be, I'm telling you) while, if she tried to do the story by asking for a permit, she would have entered the installations from the front door and seen much more.

Other than the above, I want to thank our Londinium Langur for his repeated visits and interest, as well as the overall high level of his contribution and his willingness to maintain his objectivity. You are welcome to come after the Olympics old chap, since during the event, my city is going to be a zoo!!!

KONSTANTINOUPOLIS

July 13th, 2004, 01:07 PM

I am sometimes fed up with the chilidish attitudes of many Greeks that because our ancestors built the acropolis the rest of the world owes to us or will be owing to us till the end of the time. I have every right to believe that although we (Greeks, Hellenes or whatever) as a nation did HUGE contributions to what is nowadays known as "western civilisation", we rested on our laurels and did not prove to the rest of the world that we are worthy of our ancestry. This is something that can be accomplished through hard work and positive attitude and not simply whining over some old ruins no matter how precious they are (and they are DAMN PRECIOUS I'm telling you).

To continue, it is a rather discouraging thing that many Greeks are simply obsessed nationalistic creatures filled with inferiority complexes and many times display a highly empathetic and emotionally unstable attitude when challenged to present their views and arguments on national issues (although this is a characteristic of many immature nationalities and North Americans in their vast majority are part of this too, despite the fact that, after all, the 9/11 events would have been unbearable for any nation on this planet).

Man you can't be serious!!!
Why in every post you make you put the Acropolis,the ancient Hellas,souvlakia,taverna etc. on it?

It is everyones right to be proud of what he is,to be proud about his ancestors.You CAN'T judge him about that.

Try to stick to the subject.Enough is enough with your obsessions about ancient Hellas and our cultural heritage.

Φιλικά.

Landos

July 13th, 2004, 04:41 PM

You went overboard, gm. Some of what you say is true, but you go to far in criticising your own.

Are some Hellenes abroad boorish? Sure. Are some of ANY NATIONALITY abroad boorish? Without question. I hardly think that Hellenes abroad can be anywhere near as boorish as English citizens abroad! Lets face it, English tourists have set records for being overseas boors! LOL.

This is a forum about architecture and building, and I didn't want to turn it into a political discussion. This all started when I made the observation that Brits and Australians and their media are excessively anti-Hellenic. I still stand by that. And I read British and Australian media on the internet regularly. They are unfairly critical of Greece and almost never provide balance. Almost always negative and downbeat. I'll leave it to the citizens of those nations to consider why that is.

As for Cyprus, the Greeks share some of the blame with their support of the attempted coup in 1974. But the US and Britain have allowed Turkey to invade and occupy that island for 30 years without so much as a single tangible action to bring about resolution. In fact, both those nations have provided tacit encouragement to Turkey NOT to resolve the situation by their thoughts, words and deeds.

It continues to this day with the hopelessly biased Annan Plan and political actions since then to reward the Turks for their continued flouting of international law. Hellenes feel betrayed by both England and America-countries they fought alongside in 2 World Wars while the Turks fought against us in one war and supplied the Nazi's with vital raw materials in the other. For this loyalty and sacrifice, Greeks get the ole stab in the back from FM Jack Straw and the Blair administration. It sucks man. Big time.

Lex

July 13th, 2004, 08:00 PM

I am sorry gm2263, but your seemingly impartial reverberations have really passed their use by dates. As far as I am concerned, in the quest for displaying a paternal and balanced astuteness, you bring complete disregard to your arguments for their lack of conviction. Whilst I respect your opinion, I cannot be conscious of a view that is plagued by a desire to be diplomatic and pseudo-egalitarian rather than unbiased and accurate. There is a difference.

I regret that I do not have sufficient time to give a more detailed perspective. However, I can certainly say that I find it offensive when you claim that most Greeks are “obsessed nationalistic creatures filled with inferiority complexes and many times display a highly empathetic and emotionally unstable attitude when challenged to present their views and arguments on national issues”. It seems that to me that the inferiority complex seems to lie with you and your intent to envision a Greece that simply cannot coexist with the disposition and mentality of the Greek people. This theory is epitomised in you suggestion that Greek students studying overseas “…isolate themselves in a corner at a cafeteria or the main refectory “. Greece is a result of the Hellenic psyche and the Hellenic psyche is a result of Greece. It is an intricately balanced, symbiotic relationship that can thrive only in the context of each other. For that reason, I cannot criticise the Greek temperament because it makes no attempt to be something that it is not, and makes no apologies for it.

Furthermore, I do not feel that most Greeks “rest on the laurels of their ancestors”. This I find, is an externally generated concept that is propagated by an international expectation for a country of 11 million to follow suit of an Ancient Empire.

And if you do not appreciate the “hot blooded Greek patriots……..that wait for what in their views is constitutes a challenge and come in the middle of a discussion and ruin everything”, then I can with the same tenacity tell you that you personify the type of Greek that I do not appreciate: One who rides the pleasure wave of nationalism when it suits you, and when all has calmed and subsided, critiques the foundations of the wave itself and the mentality/sentiment that brought its existence.

Min xepoulas me tosi efkolia tin patrida sou.

Landos

July 14th, 2004, 12:05 AM

Furthermore, I do not feel that most Greeks “rest on the laurels of their ancestors”.

Indeed. I can't speak for Hellenes in England or Australia, but in America they've done extremely well for themselves. In three recent polls about ethnic Americans, Greeks were rated the #1 highest in average income in two polls, and 2nd highest in the third poll (to Jewish Americans). Greek Americans are strongly into the professions such as medicine, law and engineering.

I volunteered a couple of weeks ago in my annual Greek Orthodox Church festival. I worked in one of the concession tents. I'm a Masters Degree educated engineer with one year towards my doctorate in Electrical Engineering. Working alongside me in just one of our tents were two physicians (one a heart surgeon and the other an endocrine specialist-surgeon), one dentist/oral surgeon who owns a practice with his wife who is also a dentist, three other Engineers all employed by General Motors (as I am) and one sales professional working for a major Greek American owned software company (the owner, also a member of our Church is worth well over a Billion dollars. He has a license agreement to sell software to Ford much as EDS sells software to General Motors). The software salesman also owned/managed an fair sized apartment complex. This is typical for our congregation and for Greek Americans in general. Many professionals, small business owners and so on. As I say, in America Greek Americans have done very well.

I've heard it is similar in Australia and in England. Hellenes are very upwardly mobile and astute businessman. Hardly the complainers and whiners gm (lol) referred to them as.

Greeks have their faults and loving to argue politics is one of them. I freely admit to that. But their contributions to society far outweigh their negative aspects.

As for pride in the past, I freely admit to that. If not for Greece, the western world would be speaking a dialect of ancient Persian right now (no offense to my Iranian friends, of who I have many. They're a very upwardly mobile ethnic group in America as well!). Christianity would be a small cult in Palestine, if it existed at all. Mathematics, philosophy, astronomy, medicine, architecture and democratic principles of governance would be no where near as developed. If thats not a legacy to be proud of, what is??

gm2263

July 14th, 2004, 11:12 AM

@ Landos:

I am happy to see some reaction to what I wrote a few posts before and you know what? I was referring to the “mainland” Greeks and their “peculiarities” and NOT to the vast majority of the Greeks living in the Diaspora who manage to excel. FYI, I have relatives in NY living in Queens, and Brooklyn mostly and in fact, I visit them frequently, so I know firsthand what the Greeks of the Diaspora can do abroad but I have to admit that due to my personal experience with some of them, the word “harassment” is very light to describe even a fraction of their ordeals associated with what they are about to go through if they decide to move to the motherland.

Greeks succeed of course, but how come that this happens only when they go abroad? I would like to know how much philosophy, mathematics, physics and technology have progressed by Greeks living and working in Greece during the last 40 years, compared to the progress in these fields made by Greeks that live abroad :D. And if you want to know more, ask about the case of Mr Nanopoulos who is a renowned Greek Physicist that had also collaborated with NASA in the past and what happened to him when it was made known that he was interested to come to Greece to teach. Or ask anybody that possesses your education how well the Greek state received him and treated him when he went to recognize his/her degrees with the DIKATSA (click here (http://www.dikatsa.gr) to find more about this "peculiar" wonder of modern Greek civilisation.

@ The rest:

I believe that instead of trying to hide things under the carpet, it’s better to look at ourselves in the mirror and somehow see where we stand now. I didn’t say that the Brits or the US did not do harm to my country, on the contrary. Just a couple of posts above I was wondering “Why the international community hasn't been as keen to solve the Cyprus issue as it was to go and, say liberate Kuwait in 1991? Are you aware of the fact that, during his last visit (mid 90's? ) even Bill Klinton apologised for the attitude of the US government during the years 1967-1974 (the Dictatorship) and even before? Now, one might say that it was the Greeks responsibility to clean their own mess but still, when a US President apologises, then something bad, awfully bad must have happened back then and the expression "back then" actually refers even to the first years of cold war, for those who know.” I also know about the Pro-Turkish stance of the US government until the last Iraq war when the Turks found out that our New World Order masters want our full compliance and not some temporary adherence to what they say or else… :D

As for “selling my country out” I am afraid that I only break through open doors here. I know that Efialtis was Greek, not Persian (and that’s how the Persians passed through the passage of Thermopylae, remember? ) or that Konstantinople fell because a gate called Kerkoporta was opened from the inside, allowing the Ottomans to secretly get in and the rest is history. Bout aren’t there many modern efialtes around?

And with regards to something else that was thrown on the table a few posts above, the Greek students in the UK, to me (and believe me I know very well about Greek students in the UK AFTER 1990), the 20-year old overgrown infants that the Brits (who bear A HUUUUUUUUGE responsibility about this too) admit for study in the UK without A-levels, but with only few months of tuition from a dubious “foundation course” are mostly “efialtes” who instead of putting their best effort in their studies, they will cheat, plagiarise, or even curse and swear at their hosting country for no reason because Brighton, Herefordshire, Derby, Sussex or Birmingham does not look like Mykonos or “Paraliaki” (the coastal avenue of Athens where before the Olympics most of the summer dance and Bouzouki clubs were located), and because their UK tutors are not as “malakes” as they wished them to be and have the bad habit of… detecting cheating and plagiarism and consequently nullifying student scripts or other pieces of work that are products of such actions. And don’ttry to challenge me on this people, I know more than what you may ever imagine that I know.

What is tragic is that these people give a bad name to our country, not because they know what they are doing, but because their primary examples for such a deviant or even anomic behaviour come from their families and parents and mothers who did the same things in different contexts, and passed these behavioural attributes to their offspring as standard practices followed by “cool” people, while the rest of the world (including honest Greeks too) are “suckers” (the Greek word is ΚΟΡΟΙΔΑ ). And yes people, as much as you don’t like me for bringing the issue in the open I don’t like Greeks that cheat, lie, exploit others or move along the fringes of the law, and I certainly don’t recognize them as my own. I don’t like people that hate the Turks, the Albanians, the Brits, the Americans, the Chinese, are ill-mannered, go to England to study and cause trouble with their behaviour and their “peculiar” views about Greece being the centre of the universe, and when you ask them what’s so special about the Acropolis or Greece that they worship, or what happened in the 25th of March of 1921 they answer you that Greece beat the nazis (!!! :D).

And you know something? I met A LOT of these Greeks (not Hellenes, Greeks, if we are to use the etymology of Konstantinoupolis here which is correct in its basis) from mainland Greece, not the ones of the diaspora, who have acclimated themselves quickly with their new living and working environment and excelled within years, but the others, the ones with “peculiarities” and “sensitivities” the new breed that has risen during the last 10-20 years and to be honest I felt utterly ashamed that I had to apologise about their behaviours not to the biased BBC or CNN or ABC or whatever journalists but to ordinary people who had to ask the simple question:

“What’s wrong with these people”?

And you know something else? I belong to this generation that we are tired of this nationalistic bullshit (and as much as the other party is noisy, we are hundreds upon hundreds and getting more and more everyday in numbers) while our country is THE LAST in every single EU index, THE LAST in productivity figures, and instead of shutting the f$#ck up, and trying to do something about it (if not for the sake of the figures, just for the sake of the fact that our salaries are up to 70% of the European average while an espresso coffee costs twice in Peristeri in western Athens than in Via Veneto, Rome :D:D:D:D), we insist on infringing on our ancestry instead of being ASHAMED for being so unworthy followers of their heritage and for even DARING to raise our eyes and look straight to the Parthenon.

I mean, have you ever heard about any country in the world that during an Olympic year, the tourist reservations dropped by 20%. Who is responsible about that? Kemal Attaturk? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Attila the Hun, Taras Bulba, Omer Vryonis, or the fact that we behave to our tourists like we are their captors instead of them being our guests? Or do they owe us their harassment while staying in our country because we… built the Parthenon :lol: (Poor Pericles would have chosen to go in exile, like many contemporary Greeks, had he lived in our times).

And I have to say something more: Regardless of how biased the international media is, (which they are, dear monkey, they are… ), they may be presenting a twisted version of the truth, but many things are fundamentally true. I mean, did we or did we not delay the commencement of construction for years because the contractors and the government could not find the right bureaucratic of organisational formula to begin construction and after the lapse of three years we called Yanna Angellopoulou who was the leader of the bidding campaign, to save us? Who delayed the works? Was it Kemal Attaturk again? (Για να μην τους πω ότι τρία χρόνια δεν μπορούσανε να βρούν τρόπο να μοιράσουν τα κλεψιμέϊκα, οι… ΝεοΕλληνες εργολάβοι που Τούρκοι να ήταν, καλύτερα θα φερόντουσαν :D ) Or was it the BBC, CNN and the Aussie press (who have been more than eager and keen on playing Cassandra’s role unfortunately), who paid the then Greek government telling them “guys, begin construction in 2000 or 2001 and not in 1998 which is the normal time because we want to give a biased view about the delays of the Greek preparations for the Olympics and I need you to delay works so that I can make the story. And BTW, here’s the cash for your help :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:”

Not that they wouldn’t spill their poison anyway (that’s their job), but you know how the saying goes: If you are walking on eggs don’t jump…

On the other hand, the changes that Athens (and Greece) saw during the preparations for the Olympics (or during the last 10 years that the major infrastructure works like the metro or the airport or the Attica road have been built) are unbelievable and unprecedented in the history of our country. Can we capitalise on all the gains and go forward? Can we change the legal framework so that there’s not that much paperwork required for somebody to open and operate a new business? Can we change the taxation scales so that a new businessman is not punished for not having chosen corporate slavery and tried to do something on his own. Can our taxi drivers, especially the ones going to airports or train stations follow the law and not, in addition, try to rip-off unsuspecting tourists can certain employers (Greek, not Turkish :lol: ) follow the provisions of the employment law and not harass their fellow Greek employees by delaying salary payments or trying to cut on our social security benefits?

Finally, can we all understand that as long as there is this aura of anomie and lawlessness in our country that we call “peculiarity”, then sorry, but I will side with the Greeks or foreigners that came from abroad and felt frustrated because some taxi driver overcharged them, some other took from them 20 Euros for a Greek salad and beer, the ones that stupid creatures in DIKATSA (you know what) harassed them while having degrees from the university of Toronto or NY, the ones that have been ripped off like the Japanese couple that they were crying in Stadiou Street at 18:00 hours yesterday who paid 100 Euros to a taxi driver to bring them to Syntagma Square from the airport, I will side with everybody that sees those things and asks for change, and not with the “peculiar” Greeks, whatever their annoying, ill adapted, bad mannered peculiarities are :), especially with regards to this forum where most of the forumers know many more things about us than the Moussaka, Bouzouki and the sea and sand…

It’s not the Aussie journalist that I am afraid of guys… It’s the “peculiar” Greek who's giving him the news to write that I dislike.

gm2263

July 14th, 2004, 11:32 AM

/\ The only thing I can think of that really got bad press in Britain was the case of the planespotters convicted of spying. Fair enough - that was a ridiculous case.

With all due respect, allow me to say (and I don't know If I mentioned this previously, so sorry if I recycle the same things) that I wouldn't want to know what would happen if any Greeks were caught in the vicinity of Portsmouth or Herefordshire with stored pictorial material taken from military installations after they were given repeated warnings not to proceed any further.

On the other hand, I would be interested to know how this story developed because my understanding is that they must have been released after some days or weeks at the latest. In any case though I wouldn't venture to do something similar in the UK, given the Iraq campaign and the 911 events, which were even more fresh at the time that these plainspotters in Greece were arrested.

Mr. T

July 14th, 2004, 02:29 PM

@gm2263: Your whole analogy of Greeks living in Greece is filled with flaws. You stated that Greece is dead last in all the EU index'es. This is not true, Greece is very high up on the HDI (Human development index) in the top 25 of the entire world(24th), we have one of the leading Euro Zone economies and ever since the Olympics have started Greece has gotten a much better infastructure which is comparable to many of the EU nations. You are making it sound like only the Greeks living abroad have become succesful(which many have,a nd right now I am actually working for a Senator who is the parents of two Greek immigrants). But you totally put down the Greeks living in Greece. I don't know if you have been to Athens lately but it is a changed city. The change from how it was in 1998 to how it is today is simply amazing. The Greeks in Greece have cleaned up their act big time.

Athens is not a polluted city anymore, we now meet EU air standards, and have THE cleanest beaches in Europe according to the EU. We are also the strongest economic, and military power in tha balkans, and much of eastern Europe. I love to visit Greece axpecially Athens which is now a super modern metropolis. To label all Greeks as failures expecially now when Greece has been succeding at so much just shows how little you know.

Landos

July 14th, 2004, 02:45 PM

GM, I think we all agree that Greek politicians in modern times have been a major catastrophe to Greece. Much of the "greek problem" can be laid at the doorstep of politicians who have screwed their own people for so long that the latter have given up hope.

Thats why I think it's a good idea that NEA won the last elections. They're polticians too, but PASOK was in power for so long and became SO corrupt because of it it was definitely time for a change. PASOK got big heads and deserved the defeat. Lets hope NEA can breathe a breath of fresh air into the Greek outlook on the world.

As for your Greek students in England, what can I say? I suppose there are always some who give any nationality a bad name. But that hasn't been my experience towards Greek or Greek American students in American universities who WORK HARD and don't mess around. Perhaps it's due to Englands latent anti-Hellenism thats bringing out the worst in these students? Frankly, I don't know why they go to English universities anyway, since there are better schools in France, Holland, Germany and the US. Why partronize the institutions of a country that almost ALWAYS stabs Greek interests in the back in foreign policy? Don't spend your money there.

Are you surprised that tourism is down 20% this year? All we've heard in the US press (and Brit and Australian presses) is a drumbeat of "security concerns" and "concern about terrorism incidents at the Olympics". Nothing upbeat, nothing positive. Since the US press is mostly owned by American Jews of strong Zionist credentials, who are strong backers of Turkey, I have to wonder if there isn't a political agenda behind much of the negative press. But, be that as it may, it hasn't helped promote tourism this year. I'm sure that those who go will have a wonderful time and will be repeat visitors to Greece-if not to Athens, then to the islands. :)

Lastly, per your comment or that Konstantinople fell because a gate called Kerkoporta was opened from the inside, allowing the Ottomans to secretly get in and the rest is history. . I have never, NEVER heard that the openning of that gate in Constantinople was anything other than an oversight. If you're suggesting it was intentional, you better be ready to back up that assertion with facts. Accusing Greeks, even 500 years ago, of treason is a pretty serious charge. :gunz:

KONSTANTINOUPOLIS

July 14th, 2004, 02:50 PM

Φίλε gm2263 θα σου απαντήσω στα Ελληνικά γιατί αυτή είναι η γλώσσα μου και με αυτήν μπορώ να εκφρασθώ καλύτερα.

Θα ήθελα να κάνω μερικές διαπιστώσεις ως προς τον τρόπο έκφρασης των γραφομενων σου με την εμπειρία που μου δίνουν τα 2 χρόνια (1 σαν επισκέπτης + 1 ως μέλος ) σε τούτη εδώ την Αγορά.

Έχω διαπιστώσει λοιπόν ότι δυστυχώς στην πραγματικότητα δεν κάνεις διάλογο αλλά απλά μεταφέρεις τα πιστεύω σου (με το έτσι θέλω ) προς όλους εμάς.Κάτι σαν μια επίδειξη γνώσεων και εντυπώσεων άνευ ουσίας εμπλουτισμένη με προσωπικά βιώματα.

Οι περισσότερες καταχωρήσεις σου διακατέχονται από ένα έντονο συμπλεγματισμο και μια επαναλαμβανόμενη μονοδιάστατη αντίληψη των πραγμάτων.Ως ένα σημείο είναι κατανοητό ΑΛΛΑ από ένα σημείο και μετά γίνεται ενοχλητικό, βαρετό και στο τέλος καταντάει γραφικό.

Θες μερικά παραδείγματα για τα παραπάνω;

Ας πούμε για τούτο εδώ το Θέμα.Η συζήτηση ξεκίνησε για το Κυπριακό και την ανθελληνική στάση των ΜΜΕ σε ΗΠΑ,Αγγλια και ενώ η συζήτηση είχε μια ροή,υπήρχε ένας λόγος και ένας αντίλογος ξάφνου εμφανίζεσαι εσύ και τα τινάζεις πάλι όλα στον αέρα.

Ολόκληρα κατεβατά ΕΚΤΟΣ θέματος,με ύφος «κατηγορώ την κοινωνία» και με ήθος «το ξέρω ότι σας πρόσβαλα για πολλοστή φορά αλλά καρφί δεν μου καίγετε»
Εν συνεχεία εγώ ο Landos και ο Lex σου είπαμε κάποια πράγματα,
Παρόλα αυτά εσύ εξακολούθησες να «ψέλνεις» το ίδιο τροπάριο.Πάλι ολόκληρα κατεβατά ΕΚΤΟΣ θέματος,εμένα και τον Lex να μας έχεις γραμμένους και να μην μας απαντάς καν, μια διαρκής δυσφήμηση της Ελλάδος και των πολιτών της με ένα μένος και μια κακοπροερεση που θα έκαναν τα άδικα δημοσιεύματα των Times για τους Ολυμπιακούς να φαίνονται ως ύμνοι.

Θες να σου θυμίσω πόσες φορές κατά το παρελθών έχω προσπαθήσει να κάνω διάλογο μαζί σου αλλά δεν τα έχω καταφέρει;

Θες να σου θυμίσω πόσες φορές σε έχω ρωτήσει (μιας και ανέφερες και τον Ατατουρκ ) γιατί δεν λες στους Τούρκους φασίστες φίλους σου να σταματήσουν όλη αυτή την προπαγάνδα εναντίον της Ελλάδος ;

Π.χ αν δεν κάνω λάθος με το μέλος –Ασιμοφ- και κάποιους άλλους είστε πολλή καλή φίλοι,έχετε γνωριστεί από κοντά στην Κωνσταντινούπολη αν δεν κάνω λάθος.
Παρεπιπτωντος το 99% των Ελλήνων την λέει Κωνσταντινούπολη και ΟΧΙ Ιστανμπουλ όπως εσύ την γράφεις στην υπογραφή σου.
Έτσι εσύ αντί να πεις καμία κουβέντα στους φίλους σου να σταματήσουν εσύ έπραξες κατά τον χείριστο δυνατό τρόπο.Προσπάθησες να το παίξεις διπλωμάτης,και εν συνεχεία επέλεξες την σιωπή λόγο έλλειψης επιχειρημάτων αλλά και για να μην στενοχωρήσεις τους φίλους σου τους Τούρκους.Και έρχεσαι τώρα και μας κάνεις και μάθημα για Ελληνικό εθνικισμό.Τι να πει κανείς.

Εν κατακλείδι, εγώ προσωπικά φίλε gm2263 με πωρωμένα μυαλά, με ανθρώπους που ισοπεδώνουν τα πάντα «Οι Έλληνες είναι έτσι», «Η Ελλάδα είναι έτσι» χωρίς να εξετάζουν τις διάφορες παραμέτρους, με ανθρώπους που είναι κριτές των πάντων,με αυτούς που διακατέχονται από βαθιά συμπλέγματα π.χ ντρέπονται για την καταγωγή τους,η προσπαθούν να παρουσιάσουν κάτι το οποίο δεν υφίσταται, ε λοιπόν με αυτούς τους ανθρώπους δεν έχω τις καλύτερες σχέσεις,και να ξέρουν ότι πάντα θα με βρίσκουν μπροστά τους.

Υ.Γ ) Η τελευταία καταχώρηση σου gm2263 είναι ότι πιο προσβλητικό έχω διαβάσει στο Skycrapercity.Τα έγραψες και στα Αγγλικά και μας ξεφτίλισες τελείως.Είσαι που είσαι διαρκώς ΕΚΤΟΣ θέματος γράψε τουλάχιστον τις κακίες και ειρωνείες σου στα Ελληνικά.Δεν έχεις ακούσει ότι μερικά πράγματα δεν πρέπει να βγαίνουν προς τα έξω;
Και μετά μιλάμε για ωραία εικόνα και τρίχες κατσαρές.

Εγώ προσωπικά προς το παρών δεν πρόκειται να ξανακαταχωρησω φωτογραφίες.Τέλος πάντων καλή ημέρα σε όλους.

Christos7

July 14th, 2004, 04:08 PM

back to the topic, here are some updates on the works:

Markopoulo Equestrian Centre

http://cache.gettyimages.com/comp/51055159.jpg?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=538EA340DCCBB2ADD8E9C6983F865C30A9C30E9B9B114CE8

http://cache.gettyimages.com/comp/51055096.jpg?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=538EA340DCCBB2AD17E4BD11C4E15FB5A9C30E9B9B114CE8

http://cache.gettyimages.com/comp/51054836.jpg?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=538EA340DCCBB2AD5218C9109B75593FA9C30E9B9B114CE8

Schinias Rowing & Canoeing Centre

http://cache.gettyimages.com/comp/51055198.jpg?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=538EA340DCCBB2AD5B5E1005D93C2525A9C30E9B9B114CE8

http://cache.gettyimages.com/comp/51055213.jpg?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=538EA340DCCBB2AD90BAE8079CA672DBA9C30E9B9B114CE8

Galatsi Olympic Hall

http://cache.gettyimages.com/comp/51055091.jpg?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=538EA340DCCBB2AD0B05EA5B94AD0537A9C30E9B9B114CE8

Olympic Village

http://cache.gettyimages.com/comp/51055092.jpg?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=538EA340DCCBB2AD2E2391B04341FB79A9C30E9B9B114CE8

And now for the OAKA Complex, where the Olympic Stadium, Indoor Arena, Velodrome, Swimming installations (indoor and outdoor), Tennis Stadium and Agora:

http://cache.gettyimages.com/comp/51054987.jpg?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=538EA340DCCBB2AD1950313DD4859DF1A9C30E9B9B114CE8

http://cache.gettyimages.com/comp/51054923.jpg?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=538EA340DCCBB2AD906A781E5341BC4DA9C30E9B9B114CE8

http://cache.gettyimages.com/comp/51054830.jpg?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=538EA340DCCBB2AD3159C95B9B2289A7A9C30E9B9B114CE8

Notice in the top pick the white ahesive(?) material is being peeled of and the glass is starting to show. :)

I told you, all that is left is landscpaing. ;)

Christos7

July 14th, 2004, 04:16 PM

Here are some pictures of Pireaus (Athens port) and the works going on, as well as other Major Road works around Athens:

Karaiskaki Football Stadium (right) + Peace & Friendship Stadium (left)

http://cache.gettyimages.com/comp/51055067.jpg?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=538EA340DCCBB2AD9863DFBF9DFDC2E6A9C30E9B9B114CE8

http://cache.gettyimages.com/comp/51057902.jpg?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=538EA340DCCBB2AD1C8E3992705CC066A9C30E9B9B114CE8

http://cache.gettyimages.com/comp/51057880.jpg?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=538EA340DCCBB2AD02CB10B82130DB99A9C30E9B9B114CE8

http://cache.gettyimages.com/comp/51057913.jpg?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=538EA340DCCBB2AD5217C3DCC842801FA9C30E9B9B114CE8

http://cache.gettyimages.com/comp/51057922.jpg?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=538EA340DCCBB2AD37F75EA24EE91E7CA9C30E9B9B114CE8

http://cache.gettyimages.com/comp/51057884.jpg?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=538EA340DCCBB2AD8EC28581CA07B9DEA9C30E9B9B114CE8

http://cache.gettyimages.com/comp/51057921.jpg?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=538EA340DCCBB2ADDD2CD1E559E54A3AA9C30E9B9B114CE8

THAT is amazing. :)

Landos

July 14th, 2004, 04:22 PM

I told you, all that is left is landscpaing.

Still, way, way, WAY too much left to be done. I'll hand it to NEA to get a great deal done in a short time, but way too much time was wasted back in 1997-2000. To still be messing around with clean-up, planting shrubs and trouble shooting a month before the start of the games is just incredible. I've always been offended by the "greek time" attitude.

Mr. T

July 14th, 2004, 05:45 PM

It's gonna be done on time.

gm2263

July 14th, 2004, 07:04 PM

@ Landos
I specifically talked about a certain category of Greek students that go to a specific category of UK universities (mostly the former polytechnics) and study usually Business Administration or Social Sciences. No relation with the students in the USA, I had many friends there that were working and studying and we all know that many high rank doctors, teachers, even NASA scientists came are famous Greeks. My best friend (is a she, BTW), comes from Toronto, Canada, and I have relatives in Bayside, Long Island, NY, Brooklyn, Manhasset, NY. Been there three times and hopefully, I will go there next year.

About the story with the security issues I think I have been clear in my previous posts. I personally don't believe that anti-hellenic comments are strictly UK-originated, since it was the media from all over the English-speaking world that have shown this type of attitude. (switch to Greek to read something "sensitive" )

Οσον αφορά τα σιωνιστικά συμφέροντα, απλά δεν μπορούμε να αποδείξουμε τίποτα αν και εδω ισχύει το "there's no smoke without a fire". Οσον αφρρά την κερκοπορτα, doors do not open by themselves, especially in times of siege και έχω ακούσει το σενάριο ότι η πόρτα αυτή δεν ήταν σε... Χριστιανική συνοικία, να το πώ κομψά. Αλλά ξέρεις κάτι φιλε; Τους Τούρκους δεν τους φοβάμαι, τους Εβραίους τους φοβάμαι να σου πώ την αμαρτία μου. Γιατί tolerant μπορεί να είμαι, μαλάκας δεν είμαι. Ας το σταματήσουμε εδώ όμως.

Also, I believe that the dropping rates in tourism have to do with a number of factors mostly relating to a high degree to the Euro currency which proved expensive. I don't believe that bad publicity changed the mind of more than 5% of those intending to visit our country. I believe that it is more a summative effect of diverse negative factors that can be reversed in the years to come and as I said previously, I believe that the Greek economy, given some statutory changes that need to be done, will be catapulted to the top in the years to come. Imagine that with all the negative forces of the past 20 years, we managed to enter the Eurozone after all and present a good development index.

It's time however to rationalise the benefits and immediately proceed to statutory changes. As you probably have understood, we share more or less the same political beliefs. As for the Olympics, despite whatever appears here and there in the international press, they will sure be a strong leverage for the development of our country in the years to come, it is difficult to understand the HUGE dynamics that they present for a small country like ours. The developments will be cataclysmic regardless if we will have tourists this year. I hope that Thessaloniki gets the 2008 EXPO, so that its progress will also be accelerated.

Second, I am a resident of Athens and I move around almost every day in the city, plus I drive very frequently. The changes are really dramatic in the areas related to the Olympic games. Regarding your point about the landscaping, you are 100% correct but I think that we will be able to present a more than just a decent image. IF the effort continues, in just a couple of years Athens will be a very decent city. We lost time however and THIS bleeds my heart. All this negative publicity wouldn't have found grounds to flourish if we simply started the works the next day after the we have been given the games. What can I say, I hate corruption and I hate the ones that make me apologise about my country when this happens.

@ Konstantinoupolis

Ποτέ δεν απευθύνθηκα σε σένα προσωπικά και φυσικά δεν έχω τίποτα μαζί σου. Αναφέρθηκα σε κάτι γελοίους τύπους οι οποίοι μας έφεραν σε δύσκολη θέση με τις ακρότητες τους μερικές βδομάδες πρίν. Κατα τα άλλα, You walk your side of the sidewalk and I'll walk mine που είχε κάποτε πεί ο Στήβ Μάκ Κουήν. Οσον αφορά τις φωτό που δεν θα βάζεις, αυτό θα είναι μια απώλεια, ομολογουμένως (χωρίς καμμία διάθεση περιπαικτικότητας ) .

@ Gocaps:

I needed to make the clarifications because some of the Greeks from the Diaspora that I met have been seriously harassed by the systems in the mainland. This does not mean that things will not change and despite what the international press says, Athens is now evolving into a regional metropolis from just an overgrown city that it used to be some years ago.

The point is: will we meet the challenges of the years to come? in my view, this will happen and only because the younger generations will come into production and gradually oust the old fashioned ones. I will agree with Landos that we lost years and years in building Greece into a country that deserves better than the leaders we had and I hope that the new ones that came to power after the March 2004 elections will do better.

@ Christos 7

You are the best of the team Christo, the best :):):):)

That was all, over and out...

Landos

July 14th, 2004, 10:37 PM

My father was Greek, but my mother was...English <sigh>....so Greek was not spoken much around the house. I don't speak it very well at all. I get your drift, but would appreciate a translation for the nouns I don't recognize. Send me a private message if it's sensitive.

Οσον αφορά τα σιωνιστικά συμφέροντα, απλά δεν μπορούμε να αποδείξουμε τίποτα αν και εδω ισχύει το "there's no smoke without a fire". Οσον αφρρά την κερκοπορτα, doors do not open by themselves, especially in times of siege και έχω ακούσει το σενάριο ότι η πόρτα αυτή δεν ήταν σε... Χριστιανική συνοικία, να το πώ κομψά. Αλλά ξέρεις κάτι φιλε; Τους Τούρκους δεν τους φοβάμαι, τους Εβραίους τους φοβάμαι να σου πώ την αμαρτία μου. Γιατί tolerant μπορεί να είμαι, μαλάκας δεν είμαι. Ας το σταματήσουμε εδώ όμως.

gm2263

July 15th, 2004, 10:32 AM

My father was Greek, but my mother was...English <sigh>....so Greek was not spoken much around the house. I don't speak it very well at all. I get your drift, but would appreciate a translation for the nouns I don't recognize. Send me a private message if it's sensitive.

Private message sent and sorry it has so many spelling errors, but it was written while being in a hurry. As to your English origins etc, know that I have many friends that are Greek-Canadian, Greek American and the first cousins of a very good friend of mine are Greek-English that live (now I... sigh) in... Knightsbridge, London, the poor blokes :lol::lol::lol::lol:

(For the rest, Knightsbridge is one of the best places to live in London, at least it looks like according to the pictures that I've seen from Harry's -my friend- cousins)

Paris

July 15th, 2004, 02:21 PM

I don't know if shown before but here is one of the most beautiful indoor halls in the world:

http://www.stadia.gr/faliroworks6.jpg

http://www.stadia.gr/faliroworks7.jpg

The Faliron Sports Pavillion (and it's only for tae-kwon-do and handball preliminaries..)

pics from stadia.gr

Mr. T

July 15th, 2004, 06:21 PM

yep it truly is great

3tmk

July 15th, 2004, 06:55 PM

the infrastructure looks great from what has been built.
That Faliron Sports Pavillion is really looking good, do we got pics of the inside?
otherwise, is it true there was another power outage near the Acropoleus today?

Christos7

July 15th, 2004, 07:56 PM

inside

http://www.stadia.gr/faliroworks4.jpg

http://www.stadia.gr/faliroworks5.jpg

Here is the page from www.stadia.gr

http://www.stadia.gr/faliro.html

btw, on each of the sides temporary additional seating will be added.

http://www.athens2004.com/Images/Multimedia/works_in_progress/image/jul9_fal_gym_m.jpg

3tmk

July 15th, 2004, 09:16 PM

wow!
Impressive!
I really like the colors, and the design shape is pretty good.
What's the seating capacity? Looks to me like a 15000+

Christos7

July 16th, 2004, 03:52 AM

I believe 9,000..... I don't know if that includes the temporary seats them will install though.

btw, it's my favorite one too. :D

Christos7

July 16th, 2004, 03:58 AM

Next up is the Helliniko Basketball Arena.... capactiy 15,000 I believe:

http://www.stadia.gr/hellinikon6.jpg

http://www.stadia.gr/hellinikon7.jpg

http://www.stadia.gr/hellinikon9.jpg

This one is unique because this was the old Athens Aiport Hanger. :nuts:

gm2263

July 17th, 2004, 10:16 AM

Announcing a Special 430-page issue dedicated to the Athens 2004 Olympic works - Strictly Stadia and Installations

The monthly review "Hellinikes Kataskeves" which specialises in architecture and construction in Greece, recently issued a special 430+ edition dedicated to the stadia and installations related or have been built with the purpose to serve the Athens 2004 Olympic games.

Here's the cover of this issue, depicting the inside of the main Athens 2004 Tennis Stadium:

http://briefcase.pathfinder.gr/download/gm2263/20204/289486/0/scan8.jpg

Unfortunately for the vast majority of our forumers, this issue is printed in Greek and thus, only Greek speaking people can fully benefit from its content. For the Hellenes in the mainland and Cyprus, chances are you will find it in your locan newsstands at the rather "sour" proce of 10 Euros (although the content is worth its price, believe me). I don't know it they made (or will do) an international edition or something. If anybody of the Hellenes of the diaspora wants to find it though, here's the e-mail of the publisher: ellkat@ath.forthnet.gr

A very good edition indeed, highly recommended.

Istanbullu

July 17th, 2004, 04:28 PM

Landos

July 17th, 2004, 04:39 PM

Istanbullu

July 17th, 2004, 04:44 PM

I mean, have you ever heard about any country in the world that during an Olympic year, the tourist reservations dropped by 20%. Who is responsible about that? Kemal Attaturk? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

:D

Istanbullu

July 17th, 2004, 04:48 PM

When I visit your country, most of the things the tour guides take us to see are ancient GREEK edifices. Hagie Sophia, Pergamon, Ephesus, etc, etc, etc..

Of course, the tour guide will never ADMIT they are Greek! When I asked what language was written on an ancient frieze (it was Hellenistic Greek), our tour guide said it was Hittite! Even the Germans on our tour bus broke out laughing!

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Well you've proved gm2263 right with your last post! :D Yeah sure i know you Greeks built everything around us, even the pyramids... so relax..take a banana..

and you think my ancestors are mongols right? :lol:

Landos

July 17th, 2004, 04:53 PM

and you think my ancestors are mongols right?

See, people are wrong. We DO understand each other!

Ancient Hittite, right?? http://www.skyscrapercity.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Landos

July 17th, 2004, 04:56 PM

the tourist reservations dropped by 20%. Who is responsible about that? Kemal Attaturk?

Nah, Kemal's too busy trying to find a place to sit down without burning his bum!

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/images/smilies/baeh3.gif

gm2263

July 18th, 2004, 10:42 AM

@ Istanbullu and the rest:

At least we have some of the best laurels in the world to rest on :D

http://briefcase.pathfinder.gr/download/Nik004/24492/289377/0/Athens+032.jpg

Posted by forumer Nicolas in Stadia.gr forum.

Christos7

July 20th, 2004, 02:30 AM

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20040719/capt.ath10407191429.greece_olympics_athens_tram_ath104.jpg

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/afp/20040719/capt.sge.ofi65.190704114408.photo00.default-384x256.jpg

http://www.athens2004.com/images/Transportation/TransportTramsEN.jpg

New tram opens in Athens ahead of Olympics

By Associated Press

Monday, July 19, 2004

ATHENS, Greece - Thousands of riders packed the city's new tram Monday as it made its first trip through the Greek capital before next month's Olympics.

Designed primarily to ease chronic congestion on the capital's busy streets, the tram system also was built with the Aug. 13-29 games in mind. Traffic jams are a serious problem in Athens, which has nearly 5 million residents and more than 2 million cars.

During the Olympics, trams will carry spectators from the city center to sports venues along Athens' southern seaside suburbs. The system can carry up to 80,000 people a day.

As the first tram rolled into central Syntagma square on Monday, passengers clapped just before the doors opened while dozens waiting on the platform jostled to get on.

Within the first three hours, the tram had carried more than 20,000 people, officials said.

“I see it is better than other means of transport,” said Angeliki Papaioannou, 60, who used the tram to get from the beach to her home. “Of course we were waiting for it. We wanted it.”

The tram's delivery date had for months remained uncertain, amid constant construction delays at Olympic venues that have worried International Olympic Committee officials.

The Socialists ousted in March elections after 11 years in government blamed the tram system delays on lawsuits from residents who did not want it going through their neighborhoods. Others, however, blamed the delays on mismanagement.

The new conservative government replaced the tram's management team and made construction crews work around the clock to complete the project.

“We managed to finish what looked like a disaster six months ago,” said Alain Flausch, the project manager who heads the Brussels Transport Company.

The tram was handed over to the public in an elaborate ceremony at its depot, located at Athens' former airport in the southern seaside suburb of Hellenikon.

“I am sure that Athenians will love this transport, which is ecological, modern and cheap,” Transport Minister Mihalis Liapis said.

One route follows 16 miles of track, taking one hour between Syntagma to Glyfada, a seaside suburb. Another route runs west from Glyfada to the Faliron seaside suburb.

The trams average 15 mph, and like Athens' buses, use special lanes during peak hours. But in many parts of the capital they also have their own lane permanently closed to all traffic.

http://www.soccer.gr/forums/uploads/post-112-1090262833.jpg

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/gr/trams/Athens-tram-testrun1.jpg

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/gr/trams/Athens-tram-testrun3.jpg

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/gr/trams/Athens-tram-testrun2.jpg

Amazing. :)

Bravo Elladara.

Christos7

July 20th, 2004, 02:39 AM

You know, I was just thinking... we are under a month until the games!! Is sky scraper city planning on having an Athens 2004 forum on the main page?

This thread is great, but the big event is almost here, and it is an international event! :)

Landos

July 20th, 2004, 03:05 AM

I assume there will be multiple trams running on the tracks at the same time. How many can the system accomodate simultaneously?

Italo-Australian

July 20th, 2004, 06:36 AM

I assume there will be multiple trams running on the tracks at the same time. How many can the system accomodate simultaneously?

Nevermind how many trams can run simultaneosly...what's with the green grass between the tracks!!!!!!!!!!!!???????????

gm2263

July 20th, 2004, 08:13 AM

I assume there will be multiple trams running on the tracks at the same time. How many can the system accomodate simultaneously?

There will be 35 trams for the initial phase of the operation. Yesterday only half of them went out but as the games approach, all of them will be utilised.

Been there, took pics, my only problem is when I will be able to post them, as I am extremely busy right now.

Landos

July 20th, 2004, 11:37 AM

Wow! And they estimate only 80,000 people a day can be carried? They carried over 20,000 people in only three hours yesterday wiht half the trams being used! This is going to be AWESOME! :)

gm2263

July 20th, 2004, 07:39 PM

First of all, I posted a thread in Projects and construction (in http://skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=1898042#post1898042 ) where I use much of the materials presented by Christos (with the appropriate credits of course :) ) because I believe this work needs an extra presentation anyway.

Anyway, here are my pictures from my yesterday ride along the tram lines (been there, couldn't resist !!! :D)

Syntagma Square Station, around noon

http://briefcase.pathfinder.gr/download/gm2263/19249/291110/0/Tram+1+-+Syntagma.jpg

The Rails in Vasilissis Olgas Avenue, in front of the Zappeion Megaron Congress Hall (one of the most beautiful areas of central Athens)

http://briefcase.pathfinder.gr/download/gm2263/19249/291122/0/Tram+lines+-+Amalias+Avenue.JPG

The next pics are from the tram rails in Palion Phaliron, one of Athens' coastal suburbs. There, the tram goes in parallel to the coastal avenue. Even before the construction of the green corridor which is devoted entirely to the tram, this was one of the best coastal avenues in Europe, resembling a bit the coastal avenue in Cannes (been there, know what I'm talking about :D).

Now, I must admit that I need to present you the whole coastal ride from Piraeus to the cape Sounion, some 20km of pure Mediterranean beauty. For the moment just enjoy a glimpse of the tram and this small part of the NEW ATHENIAN RIVIERA:

Tram lines in Palaion Phaliron

http://briefcase.pathfinder.gr/download/gm2263/19249/291111/0/Tram+4+-+PF.jpg

http://briefcase.pathfinder.gr/download/gm2263/19249/291112/0/Tram+3+-+PF.jpg

His majesty slowly approaching, thus giving us the opportunity to take a distant shot with a large zoom:

http://briefcase.pathfinder.gr/download/gm2263/19249/291115/0/Tram+6+-+PF.jpg

Two close-up views of the tram, allowing us to observe its design whgich bears the signature of Pininfarina and a remote touch of Ferrari embedded in it :)

http://briefcase.pathfinder.gr/download/gm2263/19249/291114/0/Tram+5+-+PF.jpg

http://briefcase.pathfinder.gr/download/gm2263/19249/291124/0/Tram+2+-+PF.jpg

...and I think I like it, and I especially recommend it to the visitors of the city that want to go to the coastal zone without paying their hard-won Euros to taxi drivers :D.

Prometheus

July 21st, 2004, 10:24 AM

As usual Grigori you've managed to give us all some wonderful shots accompanied by fantastic information. Bravo sou phile and enjoy the new trams!!!!

skyduster

July 21st, 2004, 11:05 AM

I mean, have you ever heard about any country in the world that during an Olympic year, the tourist reservations dropped by 20%. Who is responsible about that? Kemal Attaturk?

:D

Actually, a similar thing occurred in Australia during the 2000 Sydney Olympics...tourist reservations by foreigners had declined nationwide for the year 2000. The exception was the Sydney area which saw a major rise in tourist reservations due to the Olympics.

Athens and Greece are following similar trends as Sydney and Australia. Nationwide tourist reservations form foreigners as of spring had declined an estimated 17%, which may or may not forcast tourism arrivals for the year as a whole. However, due to the Olympic Games, the Attica region -just like Sydney in 2000- is experiencing the opposite trend from the rest of the country.

gm2263

July 21st, 2004, 02:23 PM

Actually the benefits from the Olympics will become apparent from 1995 onwards. Athens will become a destination similar to other cities like Vienna or Amstardam and not just a transfer point to the islands. Unfortunately, in the past, Greeks were not that much into organised strategic city marketing but tried to create an orchestrated accord made of individual and uncoordinated efforts. I must admit that the marketing with regards to the Olympics, albeit in need of more intensity, is correct in terms of communication and the message conveyed. The problem, as I said before, is that Athens and Greece pay now the sins of many years of disorganised tourist efforts and I believe that this is a good thing since it is true that the tourist sector in Greece needed some "cleanup".

On the other hand, Athens is already a metropolis in the making with centralised transport services and all the ingredients to see a dynamic expansion in the years to come. I am optimistic and you know what? After the opening ceremony (which will be THE event of the Olympics) the ones that cancelled their reservations and tickets will be asking themselves:

"How could we miss this?"

Christos7

July 21st, 2004, 10:51 PM

Look at the OAKA Complex at night, this is amazing guys.....

http://www.ana.gr/anaweb/getimage?action=getimg&docid=1890342

http://www.ana.gr/anaweb/getimage?action=getimg&docid=1890341

http://www.ana.gr/anaweb/getimage?action=getimg&docid=1890339

http://www.ana.gr/anaweb/getimage?action=getimg&docid=1890338

:eek2:

Christos7

July 21st, 2004, 10:53 PM

http://www.ana.gr/anaweb/getimage?action=getimg&docid=1889333

http://www.ana.gr/anaweb/getimage?action=getimg&docid=1889329

the scatman

July 22nd, 2004, 02:00 AM

shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit!!!! wowowowow!!!!

gm2263

July 22nd, 2004, 08:07 AM

Aye aye aye!!!

The last two pictures of the tram in the Posseidonos junction and close to the Peace and Frienship stadium are beyond abything we've seen in Greece before.

Next all we need are some cool skyscrapers in the northern suburbs. Yes guys, what you see is Athens, Greece, 2004 A.D.

Istanbullu

July 22nd, 2004, 12:34 PM

btw Athens and Izmir are like twins! I've just realised this from the pics! lol

gm2263

July 22nd, 2004, 01:30 PM

btw Athens and Izmir are like twins! I've just realised this from the pics! lol

Actually, they say that Thessaloniki and Izmir are twins. The coastal area of Athens (especially the ones depicted in the pictures with the tram above), may present a resemblance but for reasons unknown to me, it's Thessaloniki that's close to Izmir.

Actually Athens has a lot of faces. In places it's like a northern European city (Northern suburbs), in places it's like a Mediterranean city (the coast of the Saronic Bay) and, in places it looks like the old Istanbul (some areas in the surroundings of the Acropolis, like Monastiraki) while in others (the Acropolis, or Plaka, on the slopes of the Acropolis) it looks simply and in a unique fashion like... Athens.

Actually, after having walked A LOT in my city (where I took dozens of wonderful pics) I found out that Athens is a very beautiful city with an identity, and a very strong personality, coupled with some stunning colours. I hope I will have the time to post guys, because I go, take the pics but after that, I get lazy and I let them rest in my hard disk :(

ioannis31

July 22nd, 2004, 03:16 PM

Greetings to everyone.

Following the increased security level and the gradual completion of the construction works, I was not able to gain access to OAKA last Friday.

Luckily, I obtained a visitor pass thanks to a good friend of mine and I was able to take a final pre-August 13th ride around the Sports Complex.

There are still of course things to be completed within the next 10 days, like paving corridors in the eastern side of the Stadium, landscaping around it, plantint trees but everything should be ok by July 31st. It will then need approximately 3 days of extensive cleaning around the Complex, to let it shine as it was supposed to.

The color of the roof panels is simply breathtaking. The magic of the greek cyan sky and the blue sea combined...

http://briefcase.pathfinder.gr/download/ioannis336/24686/291694/0/mDSC00001.JPG

http://briefcase.pathfinder.gr/download/ioannis336/24686/291697/0/mDSC00004.JPG

http://briefcase.pathfinder.gr/download/ioannis336/24686/291698/0/mDSC00005.JPG

http://briefcase.pathfinder.gr/download/ioannis336/24686/291699/0/mDSC00006.JPG

http://briefcase.pathfinder.gr/download/ioannis336/24686/291701/0/mDSC00007.JPG

http://briefcase.pathfinder.gr/download/ioannis336/24686/291702/0/mDSC00008.JPG

and some other photos available at

http://briefcase.pathfinder.gr/contents/ioannis336/24686

gm2263

July 22nd, 2004, 03:29 PM

Απίστευτε και τρισμέγιστε Ιοάννη!!! Πολύ καλές φωτό φίλε, πολύ καλές... :master::master::master::master:

Christos7

July 22nd, 2004, 04:14 PM

geia sou re ioanni

popopo

re paidia, this is going to be AWSOME. :eek2:

Christos7

July 22nd, 2004, 04:23 PM

Olympic Village, bevy of other projects delivered this week

The Olympic Village (photo)for the upcoming 2004 Games officially turned over to Greek organisers on Thursday during at a ceremony at the northwest Athens site.

The project is amongst several this week that will be delivered to organisers or the government, including a stretch of the Kymis Avenue (adjacent to the main Athens Olympic stadium of OAKA) and Kifissias boulevard -- the main road artery connecting central Athens and the entire OAKA complex.

Other projects set for final delivery over the weekend are a new metro station in the Halandri district (northern Athens) and at the Doukissis Plakentias intersection as well as the overdue and previous problem-plagued Marathon route -- the landmark course connecting the eponymous township of eastern Attica prefecture and the Panathinaiko Stadium in downtown Athens, where the Marathon race will finish.

The latter will be officially delivered by contractors on Monday. A previous contractor, Evropaiki Techniki, declared bankruptcy earlier in the year, following numerous delays and spotty construction work.

Also ready, according to the government, is a media village in the eastern Attica seaside resort of Aghios Andreas.

Finally, Public Works Minister George Souflias noted this week that the all of the new road tunnels on the Athens-Corinth highway will be ready for motorists.

http://www.ana.gr/anaweb/getimage?action=getimg&docid=1892453

http://www.ana.gr/anaweb/getimage?action=getimg&docid=1892395

http://www.ana.gr/anaweb/getimage?action=getimg&docid=1892388

http://www.ana.gr/anaweb/getimage?action=getimg&docid=1892433

http://www.ana.gr/anaweb/getimage?action=getimg&docid=1892409

http://www.ana.gr/anaweb/getimage?action=getimg&docid=1892455

Christos7

July 22nd, 2004, 04:34 PM

http://cache.gettyimages.com/comp/51105596.jpg?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=CACF07A1008DBC176620FBF4F572D051A9C30E9B9B114CE8

http://cache.gettyimages.com/comp/51105593.jpg?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=CACF07A1008DBC172A4D8CAE362D84FBA9C30E9B9B114CE8

Caption:
ATHENS, GREECE: An Athens Olympics volunteer passes a pedestrian crosswalk in the Athens Olympics athlete's village, which was officially delivered to Games' organisers 22 July 2004, three weeks before the Olympics' August 13 opening ceremony. The village,11 kilometres away from the main Olympics stadium to the Greek capital's north, will host around 16,000 athletes and officials during the August 13-29 Olympics. AFP Photo/ Aris Messinis (Photo credit should read ARIS MESSINIS/AFP/Getty Images)

http://cache.gettyimages.com/comp/51105633.jpg?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=CACF07A1008DBC17AD7BED2E0DEC640CA9C30E9B9B114CE8

http://cache.gettyimages.com/comp/51105644.jpg?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=CACF07A1008DBC17DE155BD852B35877A9C30E9B9B114CE8

http://cache.gettyimages.com/comp/51105595.jpg?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=CACF07A1008DBC17B2D9F67946FE0CA4A9C30E9B9B114CE8

ATHENS, GREECE: A view of the Athens Olympics athlete's village, including an ancient Greek gutter unearthed during its construction, is seen in this photo taken on July 22 2004, the day the village was officially turned over to the Games' organisers. The village, 11 kilometres away from the main Olympics stadium to the Greek capital's north, will host around 16,000 athletes and officials during the August 13-29 Olympics. AFP Photo/ Aris Messinis (Photo credit should read ARIS MESSINIS/AFP/Getty Images)

http://cache.gettyimages.com/comp/51105591.jpg?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=CACF07A1008DBC1756C7D88B58740F67A9C30E9B9B114CE8

Landos

July 22nd, 2004, 10:41 PM

Smyrna should look like a Greek city, since Greeks built it. Turks expropriated it. Same thing with Constantinople. You want to look at a Turk city, look at Ankara. That you can claim credit for.

Monkey

July 23rd, 2004, 03:55 AM

@ioannis31: welcome to the forums! :cheers1: I'm really happy that you're finally here! :)

For months I have admired your wonderful pictures showing the progress of construction at Athens' Olympic sites that Gregory posted for us (always giving you credit, gentleman that he is). :okay: So I can now thank you personally for this latest series. It is heartening to see that the venues are now so close to receiving the finishing touches! I have been cheering things on, along with our fine Greek forumers.

BRAVO, HELLAS!!! :master: :master: :master:

skyduster

July 24th, 2004, 09:12 PM

gm2263,

I agree that there is nothing fundamentally wrong with Athens. Just needed some infrastructure and aesthetic help...something which has greatly materialized within the past 20 years with the renovation of Plaka as the first step. Listing all the changes now, 20 years later, will take forever. :)

The problem lies with -as you said- tourism marketing, and the belated and limited efforts of EOT to market the country. EOT has, in the past, focused almost excusively on ancient sites, something that does not interest everyone, nor will it entice past visitors to come see the same thing again. EOT has, until recently, neglected to market other periods of Greece's history ranging from Medieval/Byzantine to 19th century. There are Roman, Byzantine, Ottoman, Neoclassical, Baroque, Renaissance, Gothic, and even Art Deco structures throughout the country whose attention remains largely unaccounted for by EOT's marketing strategies, with Byzantine monuments being a late exception. Why should millions of tourists who arrive at Corfu's port and airport pass up this Baroque jewel of a city on their way to the island's resorts and hostels? Why should visitors to Mykonos' nightlife pass up Syros' Neoclassical charm? What excites me most about the Olympics and the refurbishment of Athens is that here, at least, millions of visitors will see Greece's glorious past...not just the well-known ancient past, but the overlooked Neoclassical 19th century past which has survuved in Plaka, Thesseio, and other areas on the city center.

I also have to disagree with EOT's long-term plans of promoting winter tourism to Greece. EOT and the culture ministry should, instead, promote long-term autumn/winter/spring residents (such as study-abroad students), instead of short-term winter tourism. And while it's true that there are plnety wonderful winter destinations in Greece, they are already enjoying a boom from domestic tourism, while the summer sunshine plays an important part of Greece's charm for foreign visitors. EOT needs to keep making sunshine and beaches a key element (but not the sole element) in its campaign, and needs to use better images in its print media in order to promote this aspect of the country. The private sector has produced so many fabulous pictures of the country, why can't EOT do the same? EOT also needs to keep in mind the countless waterparks that have opened up across the country.

I completely agree that tourism will start to see benefits after the 2004 Olympic Games. Whoever thought that the Games would boost tourism arrivals to above normal levels this year was drawing baseless conclusions. Residents of Greece and Athens were well aware of the Athens 2004 Games since September 1997, but most of the world will find out in August of 2004 on their television screens. (not everyone follows the news, albeit Olympic news...yes, even with all the publicity both positive and negative on Athens.) Despite even the negative publicity (which -beleive me- there is no such thing as bad publicity), the Games will introduce (or in most cases reintroduce) the city, and -indirectly- the country, to billions of television viewers.

Christos7

July 24th, 2004, 09:57 PM

skyduster..... beautiful post.

Here's a small pic guys, the details and finishing touches are being applied. :)

http://www.zdf.de/ZDFde/img/7/0,1886,2358727,00.jpg

Christos7

July 25th, 2004, 05:58 AM

http://www.athens2004.com/Images/Multimedia/images/24Jul2004Tennis1_p.jpg

http://www.athens2004.com/Images/Multimedia/works_in_progress/image/jul9_oaka2_m.jpg

http://www.athens2004.com/Images/Multimedia/images/12june0405798_003OAKAtennisP.jpg

http://www.athens2004.com/Images/Multimedia/images/24Jul2004Velod1_p.jpg

http://www.athens2004.com/Images/Multimedia/images/24Jul2004OakaSur1_p.jpg

http://www.athens2004.com/Images/Multimedia/images/24Jul2004Karais2_p.jpg

:horse: :horse: :horse:

Christos7

July 25th, 2004, 06:00 AM

And last but not least, check this beauty out!!!!

http://www.athens2004.com/Images/Multimedia/images/24Jul2004Oaka1_p.jpg

Landos

July 25th, 2004, 07:00 AM

Is the white stuff supposed to come off the roof of the velodrome as well? Or does it stay on?

Also, are they going to have all the landscaping done in time for the games? Shrubs and stuff?

Prometheus

July 25th, 2004, 11:12 AM

http://cache.gettyimages.com/comp/51113017.jpg?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=CACF07A1008DBC17143383157C6A3344A9C30E9B9B114CE8
http://cache.gettyimages.com/comp/51113013.jpg?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=CACF07A1008DBC17B9F9C6584D8842C9A9C30E9B9B114CE8
http://cache.gettyimages.com/comp/51113010.jpg?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=CACF07A1008DBC1768A595E8A84A971AA9C30E9B9B114CE8
http://cache.gettyimages.com/comp/51113009.jpg?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=CACF07A1008DBC1726CEABFEB4755F2CA9C30E9B9B114CE8
http://cache.gettyimages.com/comp/51113007.jpg?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=CACF07A1008DBC173FF025B40FEA839DA9C30E9B9B114CE8
http://cache.gettyimages.com/comp/51113002.jpg?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=CACF07A1008DBC17D7F8D49984E49B4CA9C30E9B9B114CE8
ATHENS, GREECE: Passengers walk in the new subway station of 'Halandri', located in downtown Athens 25 July 2004. The Halandri subway station can be used for reaching the International airport, the Athens centre and the main Olympic venues of 'OAKA', as it opened 19 days ahead of the summer Olympic Games, that open on 13 August. AFP PHOTO / Fayez NURELDINE (Photo credit should read FAYEZ NURELDINE/AFP/Getty Images)

Landos

July 25th, 2004, 08:03 PM

Wow, it just keeps on getting better and better!

I can't wait to visit Athens and see all the new infrastructure and the stadiums. I'll probably go there next Spring. Going to ride the Metro, and the Tram and the trains and see the new airport and the new highway system and drive across the Rio/Antirio bridge and stay at the new hotels!

Christos7

July 25th, 2004, 11:21 PM

Landos, I got to do it all only a few weeks ago... I don't know when was the last time you were in Greece, but I can honestly tell you it is a changed city.

Christos7

July 25th, 2004, 11:46 PM

All my fellow Greek brothers, who have gone threw this whole time being crtisized and out up with it....

I now present to you this huge photo, so you can see all of OAKA in all of it;s glory. Courtesy of smarg from stadia.gr

Behold, in all it's glory, the Athens Olympic Centre!

http://www.athens2004.com/Images/Multimedia/highResolutions/24Jul2004Oaka1_h.zip

WE DID IT!!! AND IT WILL BE SPECTACULAR!!!!

Christos7

July 25th, 2004, 11:57 PM

http://briefcase.pathfinder.gr/download/serraios1/24567/293242/0/24Jul2004Oaka1_h.jpg

:eek2: :eek2: :eek2:

Landos

July 26th, 2004, 04:41 AM

Christos, I was last in Athens about 4 years ago. Much has changed, since then. I even flew into the old Hellnikon airport, but I understand the new one is fantastic!

Lets face it, as Hellenes we've all taken a lot of crap over the late venues. I know I have. I have one Irish bastard at work who's given me no end of crap over "Greeks and how they never know how to get things done on time!". Well, when this Olympics is finished-and it's going to be an AWESOME one-I intend to rub his big, red, Irish nose in it till he can't STAND IT! LOL

Christos7

July 26th, 2004, 07:49 PM

Landos, the new airport is amazing. One of the best I have ever stepped into.

As for your 2nd part, I hope you give it to him good. :) I have a couple myself i'm keeping in mind for a good lashing. lol

Anyway, here is some more good news:

Greece Complete Reconstruction of Marathon Route

Mon Jul 26, 2004 07:23 AM ET

By Karolos Grohmann
ATHENS (Reuters) - Greek officials declared victory on Monday in the race to complete the reconstruction of the original Athens Olympic marathon route less than three weeks before the start of the Games.

After years of delays ized
Bush Considers Speedy Moves on 9/11 Report
and recent financial obstacles, organizers delivered 26 revamped kilometers of the 42.195 kms route near the monument of the 490 B.C. victory of the Athenian army against the invading Persians four days before an International Olympic (IOC) deadline expired.

The remaining 16 kms weave through Athens along an already widened boulevard.

"We have won," a smiling Public Works Minister George Souflias said, using the famous phrase of the Athens messenger who ran the first marathon to announce victory over the Persian army before dropping dead of exhaustion and dehydration.

"We are winners because the marathon route is the symbol of the Olympic Games in Athens. With delivery of this project we have won the first big bet."

Major renovation work on part of the route, one of the highlights of the Athens Games, started early last year, after years of squabbling, delays and changes in the designs.

Originally due for completion last year, the widened route, tracing the footsteps of messenger Phidippides who ran back to the capital to declare victory against the Persians, is one of the most anticipated events of the Games.

The IOC had warned earlier in the year that the road had to be ready by the end of July to allow for testing and other landscaping-type work ahead of the Games opening on August 13.

Organizers had to scrap ambitious plans for the construction of a large monument at the start of the race due to time constraints.

Runners will start near the site of the ancient battle and finish at central Athens' Panathenian stadium, the same route as the first modern Games in 1896.

The project was thrown into disarray earlier this year when the original road contractor went into bankruptcy partly because of overtime payments and poor construction.

As recently as May, builders were ripping out and repairing parts of the badly reconstructed route after the contractor's business folded.

Christos7

July 27th, 2004, 12:37 AM

A few pics of the Marathon

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20040726/capt.ath10207262129.greece_olympics_athens_marathon_ath102.jpg

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20040726/capt.ath10407262128.greece_olympics_athens_marathon_ath104.jpg

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20040726/capt.ath10107262129.greece_olympics_athens_marathon_ath101.jpg

Workers push recycle bins in front of the newly built starting point of the Marathon race, in the village of Marathonas about 42 kilometers (26 miles) northeast of Athens on Monday, July 26, 2004. Olympic planners took control of a widened and newly paved marathon route after months of round-the-clock work to overcome some of the most worrisome delays of the Aug. 13-29 Olympic Games. (AP Photo/Thanassis Stavrakis)

Christos7

July 27th, 2004, 11:21 PM

http://bemo.etypo3.de/fileadmin/olympia/wallpaper_bemo_1024.jpg

Christos7

July 28th, 2004, 04:06 AM

http://pro.corbis.com/images/DWF15-821854.jpg?size=67&uid={cdc5430d-f506-479d-89cd-925f91e6419a}

http://pro.corbis.com/images/DWF15-821859.jpg?size=67&uid={f1c4c466-37a0-415d-85a1-e13b519e48d8}

http://pro.corbis.com/images/DWF15-821857.jpg?size=67&uid={8e675c60-df09-47ed-8ef4-e6695fbef118}

:horse: :horse: :horse:

Mr. T

July 28th, 2004, 05:01 AM

Before the stadium was full of seats where did they go now?!

Sexas

July 28th, 2004, 06:25 AM

anybody have a picture of the torch tower?

Lucretius

July 29th, 2004, 12:47 AM

the torch tower can be seen in the picture above. It's the not-so-tall spindle leaning under the point the arches touch. I 'll try to find a better image in one of Ioannis vast collection...

Lucretius

July 29th, 2004, 12:58 AM

Here you are

http://users.auth.gr/~lvorgias/mDSC00001.JPG

EDIT: It's time you change your background

http://users.auth.gr/~lvorgias/1890338.JPG

http://users.auth.gr/~lvorgias/1890339.JPG

http://users.auth.gr/~lvorgias/1890341.JPG

http://users.auth.gr/~lvorgias/1890342.JPG

:nocrook:

Lucretius

July 30th, 2004, 10:11 PM

Where is everybody????

http://www.daniilidis.gr/main/olympic/images/52643.jpg

http://www.daniilidis.gr/main/olympic/images/52657.jpg

http://www.daniilidis.gr/main/olympic_upd/images/54163.jpg

http://www.daniilidis.gr/main/olympic_upd/images/51540.jpg

http://users.auth.gr/~lvorgias/bynight/07jul0405930_010_envirH.jpg

http://users.auth.gr/~lvorgias/bynight/07jul0405930_054_envirH.jpg

http://users.auth.gr/~lvorgias/bynight/07jul0405930_061_envirH.jpg

http://users.auth.gr/~lvorgias/bynight/24Jul2004OlySta1_h.jpg[/quote]

Mekky II

July 31st, 2004, 03:44 AM

You forgot this one Lucretius

http://www.daniilidis.gr/main/olympic/images/53907.jpg

Christos7

July 31st, 2004, 06:59 PM

Under two weeks away!!

Landos

July 31st, 2004, 07:10 PM

Time to stuff it IN THE FACE of all of those naysayers and doom predictors. We have the venues, nows the time to demonstrate the organization. These are going to be the BEST damn Olympic games in a hundred years!

Costandara

August 1st, 2004, 05:57 PM

the aussie media got a piece of my mind on the tram two days ago. I sat there telling this one journalkist what i thought of how they covered the progress and next thing i know theres camera on me and i was on national news today

Landos

August 1st, 2004, 06:29 PM

Way to go, Costandara! Let them know what colloquial morons they appear to be.

Actually, I've met some of the nicest Australians while we were both vacationing in Greece. I met one family from Melbourne-turns out the husband works for Holden which is a division of General Motors who I work for! Really nice folks. Were staying at the same hotel as I was. Too bad the Aussie media is not as engaging as the Australian people are!

george_ts

August 1st, 2004, 07:56 PM

and a picture from the calatrava pedestrian bridge
http://cache.gettyimages.com/comp/51134354.jpg?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=CACF07A1008DBC173133C4CB4EF96150A9C30E9B9B114CE8

:cheers:

gm2263

August 2nd, 2004, 06:03 PM

Well, looks like I am mobile again, otherwise I can't explain the fact that I did the trip all the way to Athens airport by rail in order to see how one commutes by train there. I must say that I was impressed, especially with the new metro stations in Halandri and Doukissis Plakentias. So, I prepared a thread for this, since I had taken many pictures from the ride, and mumerous ones from Athens Airport. here's a taste, for the rest please click here (http://skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=122848) to access the particular thread in 'Projects and Constructions.

A sample of what awaits you in that thread:

Halandri Station Interior, Entrance

http://briefcase.pathfinder.gr/download/gm22632/24691/295817/0/Halandri+Station+6-Interior+West.jpg

"Stairway to Heaven" - Halandri Station

http://briefcase.pathfinder.gr/download/gm22632/24691/295826/0/Halandri+Station+11-+Stairway+to+Heaven+B.jpg

Athens Airport Holiday Inn one of the landmarks of the train ride tp the airport

http://briefcase.pathfinder.gr/download/gm22632/24690/295837/0/Attiki+Odos-Holiday+Inn++2.jpg

The suburban rail train in the platforms at the Athens International Airport station

http://briefcase.pathfinder.gr/download/gm22632/24691/295850/0/Athens+Airport+-+Train+Station+4+-+Suburban+Train.JPG

Athens Airport Railway station - Outside view

http://briefcase.pathfinder.gr/download/gm22632/24691/295854/0/Athens+Airport+-+Train+Station+2.JPG

And many more - like I said, click here (http://skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=122848) for the full monty :)...

Also, here is a pic of the Olympic Stadium taken a few hours ago and posted in getty images:

http://cache.gettyimages.com/comp/51136491.jpg?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=CACF07A1008DBC1728BF7E2E45C26B5BA9C30E9B9B114CE8

Looks like the guys are rehearsing the opening ceremony.

You know sometimes I wonder: Is this the city I grew in?

John

August 4th, 2004, 06:54 PM

Olympics with humour :)
http://prt.psp.ee/olympics.swf (1.35MB)

Sexas

August 5th, 2004, 10:54 AM

What time do they start discounting the ticket?

Nick Kaufman

August 5th, 2004, 08:59 PM

They won't. 10$ isn't expensive to begin with.

gm2263

August 7th, 2004, 02:48 AM

Want to see more of this?

http://briefcase.pathfinder.gr/download/gm22632/24705/292086/0/Athens+-+Dionnissiou+Areopagitou++%26+Acropolis+-+detail.JPG

http://briefcase.pathfinder.gr/download/gm22632/24705/294741/0/Athens+-+The+Parthenon+2+small.JPG

http://briefcase.pathfinder.gr/download/gm22632/24705/297124/0/Acropolis+-+White+and+Blue.JPG

http://briefcase.pathfinder.gr/download/gm22632/24705/294754/0/Thission++-+From+Acropolis.JPG

http://briefcase.pathfinder.gr/download/gm22632/24705/297048/0/Athens+-+The+Philopappos+Hill+and+the+Herod+Atticus+Stadium.JPG

click here to Access the Athens Acropolis Definitive Thread (http://skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=124168).

Athens had many things to show looong before Mr Calatrava designed his roof.
...not that I don't like it but... let's not forget where it all began...

gm2263

August 7th, 2004, 08:37 PM

http://olympics.reuters.co.uk/newsimages/2004/08/06/fs_2004-08-06T124927Z_01_ATH02D_RTRIDSP_2_OLYMPICS-SECURITY.jpg
06/08/2004
REUTERS/John Kolesidis
A Greek special forces officer guards World Renaissance cruise ship docked at Piraeus port, August 6, 2004. Two cruise ships which will be used as floating hotels to host members of the Olympic family during the Athens 2004 Olympic Games arrived early morning ahead of some more expected within next days.
_____________________________________________

ATHENS, Aug 6 (Reuters)

Athletes, officials flock to Athens, tickets pick up
By Dina Kyriakidou

- Thousands of Olympic athletes and officials were flocking to Athens one week before the Games begin and Greece said on Friday this was the best proof its 1 billion euro ($1.2 billion) security plan was working.

After years of concerns over their readiness, Athens unveiled impressive venues to the world and vowed to host a safe and spectacular Olympics between August 13 and 29.

"We are ready for excellent Games in top security conditions," Greek Prime Minister Costas Karamanlis told reporters while touring the Olympic press centre.

"We welcome from the bottom of our hearts the president and members of the Olympic family, the athletes, press and visitors to the world's biggest celebration."

About 3,000 athletes and officials had arrived in Athens so far, Games organisers said. But at least one would-be visitor was declared not welcome.

Greece said Belarus's sports minister would be banned from the Games because of suspected human rights abuses, following a recommendation from the European Union.

Minister Yuri Sivakov, who was due to lead his country's delegation to the games, was named as one of the "key figures" in a Council of Europe report about the disappearance of journalists while he was interior minister.

STRONGER TICKET SALES

Stronger ticket sales gave Olympic organisers reason to rejoice after sluggish demand raised fears athletes might be competing in half-empty stadiums.

Fewer than half of the 5.2 million tickets have been sold so far but with over 50,000 purchased on Thursday alone, organisers were more upbeat.

Athens will welcome 10,500 athletes from 202 nations. Costs of staging the Games have soared to over 6 billion euros due to preparations delays, more than double the 2000 Sydney Olympics.

Greece's massive security plan for the first summer Games since the September 11, 2001 attacks was praised by foreign officials, including International Olympic Committee (IOC) president Jacques Rogge.

The IOC chief, who had not spared Greece some scathing criticism over delays in preparations in the past, said after arriving in Athens this week he was convinced the Games would be a success.

Greece said the increasing flow of Olympic visitors proved its security preparations were trusted.

"The daily increase of arrivals of athletes and officials is the best answer to those expressing doubts about our security," said government spokesman Evangelos Antonaros.

Public Order Minister George Voulgarakis said after a government security meeting on Friday: "As far as security is concerned we have done everything humanly possible for there to be safe and very good Games for Greece."

But tight measures have upset some Greeks, who have taken legal action to stop a 200-foot (60-metre) surveillance Zeppelin from patrolling Athens from the sky. A Greek court will decide next week if the blimp violates privacy rights. (Additional reporting by Karolos Grohmann and Michele Kambas)

Landos

August 8th, 2004, 01:32 AM

I can't wait for it to start. Yeeeehaaaaa!!!!

Monkey

August 11th, 2004, 02:39 AM

My favorite bridge has been completed! :banana::banana::banana:

Last night on TV I saw a very brief but absolutely spectacular segment showing the fireworks celebration at the Rion - Anrirrion Bridge. :cool:

Costandara

August 11th, 2004, 06:23 PM

guys whats going on. I was expecting this thread to be more lively now that theres only 2 days to go. This city has undergone an undescribable transformation. The feeling you get when walking around is unbelievable. Like gm2263 this isn't the athens i know. Anyone else here in Athens atm? How do uz c it

Sexas

August 11th, 2004, 10:20 PM

^ well...costandara, the reason is the ticket isn't selling, the city losing money, tourist, athlete and reporting all got rob. from the internation press point, they did a really piss poor PR job and web site, the Taxi and Hotel also just robbing the tourist and making a bad name for Athens....who can get exciting about a game before start already got this much bad press.

Landos

August 11th, 2004, 11:18 PM

Sexas

August 11th, 2004, 11:30 PM

well...I just check the site...they still have opening night ticket for sale, Sydney's one was sold out few months before the opening night. And go check the Assoc. Press new you will see what I talking about, it was robbing every where in Athens and Hotel and taxi ask three to five times more that normal price.

BTW I do know what I talking about, you just don't want to hear it.

george_ts

August 12th, 2004, 12:41 AM

well sexas I dont know where you saw that there are tickets because it says now
Ticket availability:

Currently unavailable

http://www.tickets.athens2004.com/session/230036C4DB61108A
:cheers:

Monkey

August 12th, 2004, 01:53 AM

Take it easy, Sexas. Please quit dumping repetitive garbage here.

Christos7

August 12th, 2004, 02:26 AM

Sexas, please get informed.

The Opening Ceremony was sold out a LONG time ago. Extra tickets were made available I think last week and they were sold in MINUTES.

84,000 tickets were sold on Monday.
89,000 tickets were sold on Tuesday.

Over 300,000 tickets were sold last week. First you said we couldn't build our venues and get ready, and we did. Now you are complaining about tickets... and they are selling like crazy.

Get over it.

Anyway, football kicked off today for Athens 2004, and it was great play in great venues with great orginization all around. ;)

So far so good.

Sexas

August 12th, 2004, 02:36 AM

US Swimming Team Robbed

"A three-room suite at the Sheraton Hotel being used by members of the United States Olympic swimming team was burglarized Wednesday. The losses, totaling $10,000 in undisclosed possessions, were reported at 11:20 a.m., according to Palo Alto police.

Jim Rebosio, general manager of the Sheraton, said the suite was being used as a team meeting room and training area. He said the items missing include a laptop computer, two DVD players, and a video projector

Athens shopkeepers waiting for customers

"As Nikos Theodorakos gift wraps small statues of ancient gods, he's not sure who to blame for his recent misfortunes.

This was supposed to be a booming week, just as the Olympics are about to begin. But Theodorakos has had few customers. Like other shopkeepers, he's feeling the pinch from a pre-games slump in vacation bookings.

"We have no one to blame but ourselves and the government," he said Tuesday, working extra shifts at his father's shop in Athens' tourist district just to make ends meet. "You still hear stories about taxi drivers and kiosks overcharging tourists. We're earning a reputation as thieves."

Analysts offer a wide variety of reasons for the decline: overcharging, a sluggish international economy, the strong European currency, fears of terrorist attack during the games, and difficulties in buying Olympics tickets overseas."

I don't see this is garbage

Christos7

August 12th, 2004, 02:45 AM

Ha. Thats the best you can do?

You were much better at this 2-3 months ago.... you are scrapping the bottom of the barrel here. ;)

Christos7

August 12th, 2004, 02:47 AM

btw, you wouldn't happen to be JD over at gamesbid would you? The big Texas cowboy himself.....

Christos7

August 12th, 2004, 02:53 AM

http://foxsports.news.com.au/olympics/story/0,9744,10356211-34056,00.html

Village 'the best ever'

August 6, 2004

By Bronwyn Hurrell

AUSTRALIAN Olympic Committee (AOC) president John Coates has high praise for the Athens Olympic Village: it's better than Sydney's.

Hot property ... the Village is bursts with colour after a dusty beginning / Reuters
"I think it's going to be a wonderful Games and certainly there are many venues that are better than Sydney's and the Village certainly is a better venue.

"We didn't have to aircondition ours," Mr Coates said of the complex in the foothills of Mount Parnitha, which will provide accommodation and hospitality to 16,000 athletes and officials for the two weeks of the Games.

The Village is airconditioned to cope with the heat of Athens in August and was built according to bio-climatic energy design principles, using environmentally friendly materials.

Facilities include a swimming pool, jogging track, tennis courts, a state-of-the-art gym, places of prayer, a library that doubles as a recreation area, and a cafe that moonlights as a dance club.

The statistics are Olympian: the Village comprises 2292 apartments, 8814 rooms, and 17,428 beds, all in a colour scheme of white, blue and yellow.

The Village's heart is the 6500-seat restaurant Filoxenos, Greek for hospitable, where more than 100 tonnes of food will be prepared by 500 chefs each day of the Games.

Using 2500 recipes, chefs will aim to please every palate, paying particular attention to healthy foods as its staff dish out meals at an expected rate of 6000 per hour.

Mr Coates's praise goes beyond the Village. "A lot of the venues, including the Olympic Village are superior to Sydney and they've been scoped bigger and better than Sydney," he said.

Mr Coates said the operation of the Games, rather than the state of the venues, was now the focus of attention, but he believed Athens would be a success.

"The real test will be whether they've given themselves enough time to be operationally efficient, and if they haven't, in a few of the sports then the international federations and the IOC (International Olympic Committee) will be there to help them, so I'm sure they're going to be very, very good Games."

The daily total of 60,000 restaurant meals has required an extensive shopping list.

The hungry hordes will consume, among other things, 150,000 litres of milk, 300,000 eggs, 300,000 pieces of fruit and vegetables, and 120 tonnes of meat. In addition, there'll be 3million bottles of soft drink and two million litres of mineral water.

After the Games, the Village will be used as a housing complex for about 10,000 low-income workers.

The Australian

-------------------------------------

I've heard a few bests thrown around already in regard to the venues also.

It just pisses you off doesn't it?

Sexas

August 12th, 2004, 03:00 AM

Christos7

August 12th, 2004, 03:39 AM

but you already do search the net and find all the bad stories.... and you love it.

You can find bad press if you do a search for weeks and months back. To find some at this current time is alot harder. Although i'm sure there is a select few, people always love to find the bad.

Fact is we are ready. There is no real concern or worries, other than the usual for an event the size of the Olympics. Football has started and i've heard nothing but good things. Venues have been looked at, Athletes are in the village and are loving it, they are excited every time I turn on the TV and see interviews. (which makes me think, whats the purpose of being at the hotel and not the village where it is safer in that story?)

The media is warming up, bigtime..... and just think about what you said. Overall the world isn't as happy as Sydney? Thats rich. Seeing as how they were one of our biggest critics. Reality check: all other nations are reporting similar things, nobody is complaining. (except you, ofcourse) Even NBC are saying good things when I turn on the TV.

And don't compare us to Sydney yet. Compare us in the end.

btw, you didn't answer my question:

btw, you wouldn't happen to be JD over at gamesbid would you? The big Texas cowboy himself.....

the scatman

August 12th, 2004, 04:11 AM

...I really don't want go all over the internet and find you "all the bad news" I just want to proof I'm not BS. Overall the oversea press isn't as happy as the Sydney one, as I live in Texas...what do I care.

well ofcourse the oversea press isnt happy THEIR FUCKIN JEALOUS!!!! HAHAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! LOL!

Landos

August 12th, 2004, 04:25 AM

And Sexas just can't stand it. LOL.

He's like the US press. For months now, all they've done is try and rain on Athens parade. Negative news, doom & gloom. Now, not only have the Greeks pulled it off, but they're getting accolades as having some of the best facilities in recent history!

US reporters (and those from Britain and Australia) are being made to look like the negative jerks they are in Athens. Everybody is laughing at them now and they know it. And it isn't just the Greeks who are laughing. Most of the rest of europe is laughing at the Yanks too. And justifiably so.

Lets get on with the games...!!!

Nick Kaufman

August 12th, 2004, 04:28 AM

A three-room suite at the Sheraton Hotel being used by members of the United States Olympic swimming team was burglarized Wednesday. The losses, totaling $10,000 in undisclosed possessions, were reported at 11:20 a.m., according to Palo Alto police.

So, people aren't robbed in Texas? Nobody got robbed in Houston during the last Superbowl? Where's the news?

Athens is one of the safest cities in the world (olympic security or no olympic security) and you formed an opinion from an AP report?

As for the cab fairs, there's a 3 Euro surcharge for "Olympic taxi cabs" with drivers that speak English, but it's still cheaper than anywhere in the US.

Prometheus

August 12th, 2004, 06:06 AM

Well the Olympics may not be starting until Friday, but preliminary football matches have already taken place.

Here are some pics from the Greece-Korea (men 2-2), and the Greece-US (women 0-2) from the refurbished Kaftanzoglio stadium in Thessaloniki.

http://geek.nm.ru/kautatsogleio.jpg

http://geek.nm.ru/kautatsogleio2.jpg

http://geek.nm.ru/kautatsogleio3.jpg

kostya

August 12th, 2004, 09:25 AM

lol, Prometheus, τώρα θα έκανα post τις φωτό.... ;)

gm2263

August 12th, 2004, 12:16 PM

Quote:
A three-room suite at the Sheraton Hotel being used by members of the United States Olympic swimming team was burglarized Wednesday. The losses, totaling $10,000 in undisclosed possessions, were reported at 11:20 a.m., according to Palo Alto police.

_____________________

Quotr from Nick Kaufman
So, people aren't robbed in Texas? Nobody got robbed in Houston during the last Superbowl? Where's the news?

Athens is one of the safest cities in the world (olympic security or no olympic security) and you formed an opinion from an AP report?

As for the cab fairs, there's a 3 Euro surcharge for "Olympic taxi cabs" with drivers that speak English, but it's still cheaper than anywhere in the US.

@ NIck Kaufman
...Thanks Nick. And BTW isn't Palo Alto located in the US (California I think?). What's the Palo Alto Police doin' here?

Olympiad

August 12th, 2004, 02:21 PM

Here is a great video, that will surely wet everyones appetite:

Click for Link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/news_web/video/40429000/bb/40429881_bb_16x9.asx)

:banana2:

Landos

August 12th, 2004, 05:16 PM

I was reading the summary of the Greek/Korea mens soccer game and it said something about a Greek player putting it in his own goal?? Yikes, thats not a good way to start! Anyone have the details on that goof up??

:eek2:

gm2263

August 12th, 2004, 09:25 PM

@Landos

Well no, but I have the following pics taken 1/2 an hour ago from my house.
The Acropolis, moments after the flame from the Olympic torch relay arrives in the hands of the Gold medallist short distance runner Carl Lewis:

http://briefcase.pathfinder.gr/download/gm22632/24705/300414/0/Acropolis+By+Night2+-+Maloucos.jpg

gm2263

August 12th, 2004, 09:28 PM

Athens Skyline At night, one day before the opening ceremony of the Athens 2004 Olympic Summer games :)

http://briefcase.pathfinder.gr/download/gm22632/24690/300415/0/Athens+by+Night++-+From+Home+-+Large+-+panorama.jpg

From the left you see the Acropolis, the Lycabettus hill and under it, the Athens Tower (http://www.emporis.com/en/wm/bu/?id=110579) Athens's tallest at the moment :)

gm2263

August 12th, 2004, 10:52 PM

Aaaand... it's a few hours prior to the show...

http://newsbox.msn.co.uk/mediaexportlive/6/2004-08-12T063530Z_01_NOOTR_RTRIDSP_2_OUKTP-OLYMPICS-OPENING.jpg

From Reuters

Landos

August 13th, 2004, 03:26 AM

I used to stay at the Hotel Austria, just behind Philopappou Hill when I came to Athens. Nice little hotel and CHEAP, lol. Not very far from your home, from what the pics show.

ellas22

August 13th, 2004, 04:45 AM

AHHHHHHH you gotta love people like Sexas... Watching CNN all the time.. (Controlled News Network). Brainwashing at its best my friends. Like he said he's from Texas and what does he care.... Well he's in here because he cares and he's green with envy... If you don't care then go to another forum... You see you can't because when faced with greatness you need to be near it. Hence, your presence here....

Ellas ............

entropy

August 13th, 2004, 06:02 AM

Just dropping in here to check on the status of the Games and to give a thumbs up to our Greek forumers. :tup:

I hate how some of the events start before the Opening Ceremony but nevertheless, I'm excited to see the ceremonies tomorrow (will be away the next 4 days though) and I hope the city of Athens can show the world its balance of history and modern facilities that few others can match, and surprise the world with the ceremony itself.

I also hope that in the wake of recent world events, both the audience and athletes from other nations will show respect, starting with the opening ceremony - and yep, that includes not booing the American team, amongst others. Also, now that I'm officially a Canadian citizen I hope that Team Canada wins its share of medals - even though it's the summer, not winter, Olympics. ;)

Anyways, thanks for sharing pics and updates.

Prometheus

August 13th, 2004, 06:48 AM

hugwawa1

August 13th, 2004, 09:15 AM

Go Athens!!! Can't wait to see Openning Ceremony...:-)

gm2263

August 13th, 2004, 09:25 AM

I used to stay at the Hotel Austria, just behind Philopappou Hill when I came to Athens. Nice little hotel and CHEAP, lol. Not very far from your home, from what the pics show.

Dear landos, I live some 12+ Km to the north of Philipappos Hill. These night pics above were taken from the roof terrace of my house.

If you look again at the picture (as per below) you will see the Philopappos Hill to the leftmost side of it, just to the left of the Acropolis :):):).

http://briefcase.pathfinder.gr/download/gm22632/24690/300415/0/Athens+by+Night++-+From+Home+-+Large+-+panorama.jpg

Anyway, nice neighbourhood.

Also, for the rest of the visitors here, especially the Greeks that may need to have some extra pics of the Acropolis and the motherland, I remind you my Definitive Acropolis Thread (http://skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=124168) where you can see the most famous Ancient monument of Athens in its full glory under the bluest Athenian sky ever!!!!

Also, today hopefully I will be able to post pictures from the torch relay as it passes from the area of Papagos where I live, to the north-east of Athens, close to mount Hymettus.

Fun, Fun, Fun!!!

Sexas

August 13th, 2004, 03:11 PM

I just know we won't see the opening live, it show 7 hours later in the US....it suck

ellas22

August 13th, 2004, 04:30 PM

Great pics GM2263.....

manu

August 13th, 2004, 05:18 PM

very good pictures

Landos

August 13th, 2004, 10:26 PM

Lets get it on!!!

Aquarius

August 13th, 2004, 11:54 PM

CONGRATULATIONS GREECE!!!!!!!! A FANTASTIC SHOW

SYDNEY

August 13th, 2004, 11:57 PM

The most spectacular opening I have ever seen - well done - you have shown those doomsayers what the Greeks are made of - CONGRATS !!!

Aquarius

August 14th, 2004, 12:08 AM

The Architect Of The Stadium, The Fireworks And The Producer Of The Ceremony Are Spanish :D

ellas22

August 14th, 2004, 12:09 AM

Greece has finally entered into the modern stage. I'm glad that they paid tribute to Ancient Greece as well. Great show.. Completely aweinspiring. I had chills throughout and shed a couple of tears of joy....

Ellas panta tha lapseis

Marco Bruno

August 14th, 2004, 12:13 AM

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

cicarra

August 14th, 2004, 12:20 AM

I watched it live on CBC. It was super terrific show. Good job athens.
By the way, I was wondering how did they make that hologram of DNA in the midair, does anyone know?

Aquarius

August 14th, 2004, 12:37 AM

And the hologram with the olympic host cities

gm2263

August 14th, 2004, 01:27 AM

I must admit today was a jawdropping experience for me... A great thanks to Dimitris Papaioannou and the rest of the hundreds of people that made the miracle that unfolded before our very eyes to become a reality.

It is with words and not with misanthropic or xenophobic hysterical cries that a nation makes history. And today (and for the rest of the duration of these games) Greece will prove in a thousand ways that it may not be a BIG, but sure it is now (re)discovering its great self.

Α, ρε πατρίδα, απο την κόλαση στα ουράνια μας πάς...

UNBELIEVABLE!!!

gm2263

August 14th, 2004, 02:16 AM

And some pictures from flash.gr/sportnews as posted here:-----------> http://sportnews.flash.gr/articles/2004/8/13/52741/images.asp

http://sportnews.flash.gr/_img/athens2004/image34754.jpghttp://sportnews.flash.gr/_img/athens2004/image34756.jpg

http://sportnews.flash.gr/_img/athens2004/image34757.jpghttp://sportnews.flash.gr/_img/athens2004/image34759.jpg

http://sportnews.flash.gr/_img/athens2004/image34771.jpghttp://sportnews.flash.gr/_img/athens2004/image34778.jpg

http://www.e-go.gr/ImageBank/athens2004/main_photos/teleti_enarxis4.jpg

Olympiad

August 14th, 2004, 02:33 AM

:bow:

The greatest opening ceremony ever. It was truely amazing, in two days time I will be walking around the Olympics complex myself, I just cant wait.

Bravo Hellas!

Nick Kaufman

August 14th, 2004, 02:59 AM

It is with words and not with misanthropic or xenophobic hysterical cries that a nation makes history.

This is so well put. So well put. Something that all Greeks here and all over should take heed.

Mantas

August 14th, 2004, 03:01 AM

Wow, NBC just finished showing the DNA. Great job so far :okay:

entropy

August 14th, 2004, 04:08 AM

Well said, brother, and thanks!! :) :)

Btw, don't fret, the World Cup of Hockey is on it's way soon.

Actually I'm one of the few Canadians that prefer the Summer Olympics over its alternatives. ;)

BTW it was a great show put off by the Greeks in the opening ceremony, as usual I liked the symbolism and history put forth, this time coming from one of the world's oldest and most endearing cultures.

MILIUX

August 14th, 2004, 06:33 AM

Trance music was un-nessary. It's too tacky. And man...the lady singing when after the athletes' s reception. It was a bit irritating.

Nonetheless, a fine event.

Landos

August 14th, 2004, 05:06 PM

I've been checking the overnight reports on international media sites and the Athens Olympics openning ceremony is being applauded all over the world! If the Greeks can deliver like that for 16 more days, this Olympics will be nominated for the best of all time!

GREAT job, Greece!! Keep it up!

:)

Steven77571

August 14th, 2004, 07:44 PM

I really liked the show. My favorite part was the time-travel of Greek history and mythology. Some of those people looked like stone statues.
Why wasn't Zeus portrayed in the images of Greek history? I still don't understand that one.

Prometheus

August 14th, 2004, 08:10 PM

http://www.uwm.edu/Course/mythology/0100/113.jpg
http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/nm/20040814/mdf655976.jpg

http://www.umehon.maine.edu/images/hon111/acropolis/Erechtheion%20Porch%20of%20MaidensIII.jpg
http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20040813/capt.xpch11908132249.greece_olympics_opening_ceremony_xpch119.jpg

http://images.encarta.msn.com/xrefmedia/sharemed/targets/images/pho/t010/T010203A.jpg
http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20040813/capt.xpch11608132224.greece_olympics_opening_ceremony_xpch116.jpg

http://www.tigtail.org/TIG/TVM/E/Ancient/Greek/Greek-art/0_precursers/frescos/S_OK/minoan_fisherman-akrotiri-thera.c1650bc.jpg
http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20040813/i/r1277118843.jpg

http://home.att.net/~hagardorn/images/epidaurus_theater4.jpg
http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20040813/i/r2183723540.jpg

http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20040813/i/r1298735028.jpg
http://www.vanderbilt.edu/AnS/languagectr/Greek/AthenaGilded.jpg

http://www.grisel.net/images/greece/Delphi44.JPG
http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20040813/i/r2426496421.jpg

gm2263

August 15th, 2004, 09:46 AM

The Beginning and the End, the Alpha and the Omega, the light of wisdom:

ATHENA

AΘΗΝΑ ΖΑΦΥΡΟΠΕΤΡΑ ΣΤΗΣ ΓΗΣ ΤΟ ΔΑΧΤΥΛΙΔΙ!!!

"Athens, Stone of Zaphyre Sitting on top of the Earth's Ring!!!"

http://briefcase.pathfinder.gr/download/gm22632/24705/294759/0/Pallas+Athena.JPG]

gm2263

August 15th, 2004, 09:51 AM

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh, thanks Prometheus!!!!!

gm2263

August 15th, 2004, 10:36 PM

Please note: This is originally posted in the following address: http://skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=2043316#post2043316 and I also posted it here as a case study reference in an attempt to give you an idea of how the Athens Olympic games look like.

___________________________

Original thread content:

___________________________

Some of you would probably like to see ther inside of Olympic stadiums, installations and their surroundings from ground level from the point of view of a spectator. Well, I can be of help. Yesterday, I was found in the Hellinikon Sports complex, at the side of the old Athens Hellinikon International Airport right on the Athens coastal front and Next to the Aghios Cosmas Olympic training centre.

I was lucky to get the ticket from a friend that couldn't attend the game and so I was found there with friends, and I must admit, it was entertaining despite the fact that the Greek girls, although they put a gallant effort, they lost to the superior Russian team by a decent, yet definitive score of 69-62.

The game took place in the Helliniko Indoor Arena (http://www.athens2004.com/athens2004/page/venues?lang=en&cid=fa1a470429149f00VgnVCMServer28130b0aRCRD&oid=d49902b31af59f00VgnVCMServer28130b0aRCRD). Although the arena was not full (on the contrary, approximately the tenth of the seating capacity was used some 1,400 spectators over a total of approx of 14,000 seats available) there was great movement from the spectators as well as many happenings taking place during the breaks. The arena itself used to be an old airport hangar in the old days.

Good size, modern facilities, and although I believe that the Olympic Indoor Hall (http://www.athens2004.com/en/Venues/venues?oid=748902b31af59f00VgnVCMServer28130b0aRCRD) in the main Olympic Complex in Maroussi-Kalogreza, as well as the innovative Peace and Friendship Stadium (http://www.athens2004.com/athens2004/page/venues?lang=en&cid=fa1a470429149f00VgnVCMServer28130b0aRCRD&oid=da48f194d0169f00VgnVCMServer28130b0aRCRD) are more impressive overall, this is a warm and cozy indoor stadium which offers all the facilities for world class basketball matches and it will definitely be a good adittion to the sports infrastructure of the Athens' coastal suburbs.

In addition, the Hellenikon Complex is very spacious and offers a new vast expanse for free openair concerts and other events, I mean, you can host a whole Rock festival there easily. On the other hand, I have been subjected to body and bag serch, and security was tight with the Observation Airship and many police helicopters patrolling the site from the air.

Before we go on to the pictures, I feel compelled to note that the atmosphere during the whole duration of the game was characterised by unbelievable fun due to the many happenings taking place in the arena on the intervals and outside. I cannot describe how the crowds were cheering and apart from the cheerleaders, the jumpers and acrobats, we also had the pleasure to see the two mascots of the games live, mostly entertaining the kids who, at the site of these gigantic figures playing with them were going nuts :):):):).

So, first let's see the Game Details (As per the Athens 2004 Official Website (http://www.athens2004.com/en/BasketballWomen/results?rsc=BKW400A03&frag=BKW400A03_C73))

Results

Helliniko Indoor Arena (http://www.athens2004.com/athens2004/page/venues?lang=en&cid=fa1a470429149f00VgnVCMServer28130b0aRCRD&oid=d49902b31af59f00VgnVCMServer28130b0aRCRD) - SAT 14 AUG 2004

Game Result: GRE 62- RUS 69
Attendance: 1488
Start time 20:00

Scoring by 5 min intervals
6 16 24 34 39 43 52 62
8 12 21 31 48 56 58 69

Pictures

-The coastal avenue with the tram lines as seen from the footbridge connecting the Hellenikon Olympic Complex and the Aghios Kosmas Olympic Training Centre

http://briefcase.pathfinder.gr/download/gm22632/25459/301627/0/Posseidonos+Avenue+1.JPG

-Same Spot, looking towards the Aghios Kosmas Installations:

http://briefcase.pathfinder.gr/download/gm22632/25459/301628/0/Posseidonos+Avenue+2.JPG

-Partial View of the Hellenikon Installations from the footbridge. Excellent spot for taking pics but you due to the crowd management measures in effect you don't have much time to take many pics before or after a major event due to the crowd movements in and out the facility.

http://briefcase.pathfinder.gr/download/gm22632/25459/301629/0/Hellenikon+Venue+from+footbridge+1.JPG

-The entrance of the arena

http://briefcase.pathfinder.gr/download/gm22632/25459/301630/0/Hellenikon+Basketball+Stadium++-+Outside+view.JPG

-Views from the entrance of the arena looking towards the Hockey and baseball stadiums (at least that's what they have to be )

http://briefcase.pathfinder.gr/download/gm22632/25459/301631/0/View+1.JPG

http://briefcase.pathfinder.gr/download/gm22632/25459/301632/0/View+2.JPG

http://briefcase.pathfinder.gr/download/gm22632/25459/301633/0/View+3.JPG

http://briefcase.pathfinder.gr/download/gm22632/25459/301634/0/View+4.JPG

http://briefcase.pathfinder.gr/download/gm22632/25459/301635/0/View+5.JPG

-The foyer of the arena. With the abundant presence of white marble on the floor, this is a typical Greek style of construction.

http://briefcase.pathfinder.gr/download/gm22632/25459/301636/0/Indoor+Arena+Foyer.JPG

-Scenes from the presentation and preparations of the gorgeous and (and highly efficient) Russian team, also depicting parts of the stadium interior.

http://briefcase.pathfinder.gr/download/gm22632/25459/301637/0/Russian+Team+1.JPG

-Help me O Lord to overcome the temptations of the flesh. :naughty: Beautiful girls and tall. they looked like 6-footers all of them.

http://briefcase.pathfinder.gr/download/gm22632/25459/301638/0/Russian+Team+2.JPG

http://briefcase.pathfinder.gr/download/gm22632/25459/301641/0/Russian+Team+and+Inside+of+Arena.JPG

-The Greek Team. Gallant fighters, they lost with a decent score and kept the spirits high. Russians were slightly better though and knew how to better exploit strategic opportunities. And Greeks seemed a bit frightened here too.

http://briefcase.pathfinder.gr/download/gm22632/25459/301642/0/Hellenic+Team+and+Inside+of+Arena.JPG

http://briefcase.pathfinder.gr/download/gm22632/25459/301643/0/Hellenic+Team+1.JPG

Stills from the game. A good game with many quick phases, well orchestrated attacks from both sides and crowd-pleasing.

http://briefcase.pathfinder.gr/download/gm22632/25459/301644/0/Still+1.JPG

http://briefcase.pathfinder.gr/download/gm22632/25459/301645/0/Still+2.JPG

http://briefcase.pathfinder.gr/download/gm22632/25459/301658/0/Still+3.JPG

http://briefcase.pathfinder.gr/download/gm22632/25459/301659/0/Still+4.JPG

-The mascot. Here announcing one of the many time-outs on the board.

http://briefcase.pathfinder.gr/download/gm22632/25459/301660/0/Time+Out.JPG

And here is one of the mascots in action during its crowd-pleasing activities. Actually the kids love them although at close range and in dim lightning may constitute a frightening spectacle with all that size. I remember when they first were announced, people did not like them because of their bell-shaped bodies and their asymetrically small heads but now that they perform their act and function well in their crowd-pleasing role, they look good as a marketing and promotional tool.

They constitute imitations of ancient children dolls. Actually, many peolple in Greece call them "plaggones" in plural, the term having ancient Greek language roots, simply meaning "dolls". Their names are "Phoebos" and "Athena"

http://briefcase.pathfinder.gr/download/gm22632/25459/301661/0/Plaggona+1.JPG

http://briefcase.pathfinder.gr/download/gm22632/25459/301662/0/Plaggona+2.JPG

OK folks, that's all (sorry I have the rest on videotape). Again, before I close this post, I must emphasise on the atmosphere of the games. It's been a long time I saw so many happy people having such a good time together.

But that's the spirit of the Olympic games I guess!!!

gm2263

August 16th, 2004, 12:02 AM

Also worth adding: Scenes from the opening ceremony:

http://www.sportime.gr/ast/cov/wa/wall13_b.jpg

http://www.sportime.gr/ast/cov/wa/wall4_b.jpg

Just for the record... :)

MILIUX

August 16th, 2004, 02:52 AM

So when will people actually see the events? Every events including the opening ceramony have vacant seats. Hardly anyone saw the swimming contest.

What's going on!

Landos

August 16th, 2004, 03:21 AM

I saw enough empty seats at Sydney as well.

Great shots, GM. Keep up the good work!

Christos7

August 16th, 2004, 05:06 AM

Swimming? Are you kidding? Swimming has been one of the few things that was packed.... same with Basketball.

Sexas

August 16th, 2004, 06:58 AM

Olympics tickets are selling like hotcakes-they sold 84,000 on mondy alone! Despite a slow start, the athletes and the beautiful people are showing up and its going to be a fantastic Olympics.

Next time try knowing what you are talking about before you open your mouth! LOL

Do anybody still want to say tickets are selling like hotcakes now? almost half of the seats on almost all the games are empty, I'm not try to say it is a bad game, in fact the opening was so wonderful and I love it a lot. But Greece need to do more PR and TV ad before the game...but I guess is too late now.

Sexas

August 16th, 2004, 07:11 AM

well ofcourse the oversea press isnt happy THEIR FUCKIN JEALOUS!!!! HAHAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! LOL!

Scatman, don't under estimate the power of oversea press, can you see what's going on now, the game will cost Greek goverment tons of money but it won't change the internation view about Greece, in some reason the oversea press just keep bring up bad news from empty seats to bad food and bad management, like from the opening night..the NBC (American TV) all they talking about was how close Greece lost the game hosting city because nothing was done back in the 2000....but they didn't say any good thing about the game not even talk about how wonderful the new complex is...and I don't see it is a funny stuff.

Homeroids

August 16th, 2004, 07:19 AM

Well the coverage in Australia has been very glowing of the games. There is huge emphasis on the friendliness of the Greek people. We have a late night show running called, "The Dream" and it has 2 dry humoured comedians, Roy an HG. It is telecast from Athen's and they have guest's on the show each night. Last night they had Greek singing legend Nana Mousciouri (however you spell her name :)).

There has been mention of the low crowd numbers but at the same time the Australian commentry has given possible good reasons why and they aint playing on it. The games in Australia are being viewed quite positive IMO.

Prometheus

August 16th, 2004, 09:11 AM

Scatman, don't under estimate the power of oversea press, can you see what's going on now, the game will cost Greek goverment tons of money but it won't change the internation view about Greece, in some reason the oversea press just keep bring up bad news from empty seats to bad food and bad management, like from the opening night..the NBC (American TV) all they talking about was how close Greece lost the game hosting city because nothing was done back in the 2000....but they didn't say any good thing about the game not even talk about how wonderful the new complex is...and I don't see it is a funny stuff.

Bad food, bad managemet, what are you talking about?

Interviews with Canadian athelete's and journalists here have spoken wonder of the food (espcially!!!), management, friendliness and venues.

In fact, one particular quote caught my eye. It was an interview with a Canadian athlete in which she was saying how they "expect Atlanta, but worse", however when they got there it "felt" different, not like Atlanta at all which felt "just wrong...".

Nick Kaufman

August 16th, 2004, 09:24 AM

Sexas is also wrong about NBC. THere are many american media badmouthing the games, but NBC is showing some fantastic shots of the city and playing up the games.

Sexas

August 16th, 2004, 10:02 AM

Sexas is also wrong about NBC. THere are many american media badmouthing the games, but NBC is showing some fantastic shots of the city and playing up the games.

Nick you and me both know, that few shots of the city from NBC don't show the city at all. and till today they still don't show all the wonderful venues, all they doing just show American players after American player, like the game only got American players...and on the frist day they don't even talk about Chinese got the frist gold Athens Olympic medal from 10m air rifle, because it wasn't American business...and this evening they just say "look the gymnastics Indoor Hall is so empty", if it wasn't bad-mouth I don't know what'd hell is it.

Monkey

August 16th, 2004, 10:53 AM

You seem to be confusing two things here. Sexas. Both seem to be disagreeable to you: (1) the Olympic Games being carried out in Athens in an embarrassingly unsuccessful way in your view; (2) the NBC coverage of those events.

I suggest you take two steps back, take a couple of deep breaths, take a fresh look at things, and adjust your balance. :angel1:

Nick Kaufman

August 16th, 2004, 11:53 AM

Nick you and me both know, that few shots of the city from NBC don't show the city at all. and till today they still don't show all the wonderful venues, all they doing just show American players after American player, like the game only got American players...and on the frist day they don't even talk about Chinese got the frist gold Athens Olympic medal from 10m air rifle, because it wasn't American business...and this evening they just say "look the gymnastics Indoor Hall is so empty", if it wasn't bad-mouth I don't know what'd hell is it.

Regardless, I am Greek and the way NBC shows it, I ve never seen Athens so beautiful. Isn't that a net positive for an American viewer?

As for the Gymnastic halls, some sections were indeed empty and the announcers recognized the obvious. But right after that, they said it was a religious holiday in Greece and this was the reason attendance was low. Trust me, I know how to recognize media bias, and save the embarassing coverage of the opening ceremony, NBC is playing Athens up.

I cannot say the same for ESPN and other segments of American media. They are truely disgraceful.

Landos

August 18th, 2004, 06:21 AM

Prometheus

August 18th, 2004, 08:20 AM

Well just so we're all clear, Greece has now surpassed Barcelona's ticket sales of '92, and Seoul's Olympic ticket sales of '88.

De Snor

August 18th, 2004, 06:54 PM

look at this :eek:

http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Newsroom/NewImages/Images/olympics_iko_2004206_lrg.jpg

Mantas

August 18th, 2004, 07:10 PM

Look at the logo in this forum (http://tinkle.miestai.net) (logo expires in Aug. 19, 12:00am) :)

Sexas

August 18th, 2004, 08:55 PM

I think Greece is getting good exposure from the Games. Could some of the events be better attended? Sure. Is that a big deal in the overall picture. No. Will the events be better attended when they get to the medal matches. Of course.

As for will Greece break even on ticket sales, they did today. Thats right, today they sold enough tickets to push them over the top on profit/cost. Everything else from here on out is gravy. Hardly the failure you seem intent on conveying Sexas. Maybe you should analyze your own motivations?

Why you guys always think people telling you bad news is bad-mouth or I have sometype of motiva....what'a joke, look at today Volleyball Game USA vs Dominican Republic the hall is 90% empty. you can go believe whatever the goverment want you to believe, or just use your eyes and look at all the games, most of it have tons of empty seats.

gm2263

August 19th, 2004, 08:39 PM

What's the government have to do with the topic of this discussion? Are you mistaking Greeks with somebody else, because Greeks are notorious for their lack of respect for any authority, be it local, national or global. :D:D:D

Monkey

August 20th, 2004, 09:34 PM

Just lay off, will you, Sexas?

Look at the logo in this forum (http://tinkle.miestai.net) (logo expires in Aug. 19, 12:00am) :)

In fact, that Lithuanian forum has been celebrating the Athens Olympics in its daily changing banners since the Games began. :cool: I think it is a very fine way to honor this worldwide sports event, and I applaud the people who arrange the banners, thereby creating a bright, positive spirit. :master: Such expressions of praise certainly are more honorable than those of certain other people. :down:

Mantas

August 20th, 2004, 09:47 PM

Just lay off, will you, Sexas?

In fact, that Lithuanian forum has been celebrating the Athens Olympics in its daily changing banners since the Games began. :cool: I think it is a very fine way to honor this worldwide sports event, and I applaud the people who arrange the banners, thereby creating a bright, positive spirit. :master: Such expressions of praise certainly are more honorable than those of certain other people. :down:
Hehe, thanks WH for promoting our forum :D In fact, we watch the olympics very enthusiastically :yes:

The forum headers that has been shown so far
http://tinkle.miestai.net/images/forumheaders/14.jpg

http://tinkle.miestai.net/images/forumheaders/15.jpg

http://tinkle.miestai.net/images/forumheaders/16.jpg

http://tinkle.miestai.net/images/forumheaders/17.jpg

http://tinkle.miestai.net/images/forumheaders/18.jpg

http://tinkle.miestai.net/images/forumheaders/19.jpg

http://tinkle.miestai.net/images/forumheaders/20.jpg

Tomorrow's header
http://tinkle.miestai.net/images/forumheaders/21.jpg

Aug. 22 header
http://tinkle.miestai.net/images/forumheaders/22.jpg

gm2263

August 22nd, 2004, 10:35 AM

Yes, I must congratulate the Lithuanian people for their athletic spirit and their overall cultural status. Thank you very much for this guys, it's an honour for Greeks and the Olympic games too... :)

Landos

August 22nd, 2004, 04:47 PM

Their win over the USA basketball team was AWESOME. Really showed those spoiled NBA pros what a TEAM of motivated players could do!

Besides, any nationality who's name usually ends in "S" has got to be cool! :)

Mantas

August 22nd, 2004, 05:07 PM

Haha, you are so right. Evertime I say my name (Mantas) to a first met person, he thinks I'm greek :D

Oh, thanks :cheers1:

Mr. T

August 25th, 2004, 01:01 PM

Hey guys I just got back from Greece, and the Olympics which may I add are going amazingly well, and the Olympic venues are the best of any Olympics prior to this one. I enjoyed my time very much, Athens is a beutiful city with so much greatness, and has no reason to look up to other cities like Paris, London, etc.
The Helliniko, Faliro Complexes are nice but the main Olympics complex (O.A.K.A.) blows everything away. The sheer size of all the venues close up, and there beuty cannot fully be captured on a camers, and when you are there it is so muich better. If you will not be going to these Olympics I recommend going to O.A.K.A. in the future.
As for seating, and ticket sales Athens goal was not to sell every single one of the 5.3 million tickets but t sell atleast 3.4 million seats. I have heard reports that Athens 2004 is either very close to or has already met that goal. Lets not forget many Athenians go on vacation during August, and many came back this week and bought tickets. You should also notice thatonly small preliminary events were not sold very well or the events that start at 9:00 am which many do. All the nightime events, and large events were sold out, and it is obvious that now that the second rounds or finals of some events are starting many of the seats are being sold. By the way Athens has already sold more seats than Seoul, and Barcelona, and are closing in on Atlanta.
As for the opening ceremony it was truly amazing, and none of the other openings for any other games even came close to the one Athens did (with no disrespect to any other Olympics).
These were the greatest games even before they started. No place else can have the same Olympics spirit, and culture as in Athens. What other place can you run the marathon on the acutal marathon route?, Where else can you do shot put in the same stadium that hosted the first games ever hundreds of years before Christ?, Where else can you compete in Archery at the stadium that hosted the first modern Olympics?, And finally what other place can the Olympics return home? The answers to these questions are "No place but Athens".

gm2263

August 25th, 2004, 02:00 PM

...and a message from an Athenian on short vacation in Loutraki (some 100+km from Athens)

On a more objective note, I must admit that as far as the organisational part of the games is concerned, the Greeks have done surprisingly well until now. The embodiment of dozens of new kilometres of rail and highway infrastructure into the existing urban core of Athens, as well as the human resources efficiency proved to be the key element of these exceptional and very successful games to date, far better than the ones in Atlanta and much the same as Barcelona, especially with regards to the overall urban regeneration that has taken place and which will continue obviously AFTER the games.

Some might point out the doping scandals or whatever else they may find appropriate to put their finger on. The point is that all the ones in the international press that assumed the role of Kassandras in badmouthing a nation can now eat their tongues as we say in Greece. Greeks, despite their tendency to procrastinate or be disorganised, have tons of the so-called "filotimo" (can it be translated as "conscientiousness" or "honour" or both? ) in their veins, much more than other bigger, better organised, yet sterile in life philosophies nations, and it's because of this that they gave us the opportunity to witness these unique games where the open-heartedness so to speak of this nation, combined with the latest technology in a variety of fields were the order of these (Olympic) days. :):):)

gm2263

August 26th, 2004, 08:36 PM

and, also appearing as a separate thread in http://skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=2106370#post2106370 here are two pics of the Olympic complex I took a few days ago from the Pendeli mountain, one of the mountains surrounding the Attica basin where Athens is located. I hope you will enjoy them. The tall building is the Atrina Centre Tower (http://www.emporis.com/en/wm/bu/?id=110581) which is located at a distance of some 500m from the stadium but thanks to the compression of the picture background achieved by the zoom magnification, one thinks that the two structures are located next to each other, where in fact, they are not.

Overall view of the Olympic complex from Pendeli Mountain:

http://briefcase.pathfinder.gr/download/gm22632/24691/306161/0/OAKA+-+Skyline+from+Pendeli.jpg

...aaand, detail depicting the "juice", i.e. the Olympic Stadium and the Atrina Centre:

http://briefcase.pathfinder.gr/download/gm22632/24691/306162/0/OAKA+-++from+Pendeli.jpg

...and be prepared for a thread with many pictures with Athens Skylines to be posted in the near future (meaning within days, not weeks :D), including many pictures of the Olympic Complex in Maroussi Kalogreza :):):)

KONSTANTINOUPOLIS

August 26th, 2004, 09:13 PM

After a long and relaxful vacations i am back :)

Btw EBROS HELLAS tonight against Argentina in basketball :gunz:

Landos

August 27th, 2004, 12:50 AM

To the People of Greece: We Apologize

By ANN KILLION
San Jose Mercury News

Posted on Sat, Aug. 21, 2004

ATHENS - The Greeks could sue for defamation of character. They could demand an apology from the world. Instead they just shrug and order another frappe.

Their Olympics are going beautifully. Just like they expected. After all, they invented this business.

For years, we heard how miserable these Olympics would be, how dangerous, how choked with traffic, how polluted, how unfinished. After just a couple of days, some observers turned in an instant thumbs-down on the Games. No atmosphere. No crowds. The horror – gymnastics wasn't even sold out!

Such rips are ridiculous. For one thing, you can't judge the Olympics until they start. And, in reality, the Athens Games didn't start until Friday, when track and field got under way.

Olympic atmosphere comes from 160,000 people streaming into the park every day. And that can only happen when track starts. Until then, the Olympic park seems deserted even with 30,000 people inside it.

Saturday night, the upper bowl of Olympic Stadium was filled with rippling blue and white Greek flags and fans cheering for runners and discus throwers. The roar of the crowd rose into the Athens night. You couldn't convince anyone there that these Games have no atmosphere.

So far these Games get a huge thumbs-up from this corner. And not just because I set my personal bar so low - my goal was to come home alive. I swore I wouldn't whine about slow buses or hot weather.

I'm still alive and feeling sheepish about all my worries. The heightened security is evident but not oppressive. The fear-mongering has dissolved into a happy Olympic atmosphere where Canadian fans wander around in togas and olive wreaths drinking Mythos beer. The Games aren't over, but so far, Athens feels very safe.

And there hasn't been much to whine about. The buses run on time. The taxis are cheap. The phones work. Even the weather has cooperated, with temperature mostly in the 90s during the days, but not the 100-plus heat that had been advertised.

Are they as great as the Sydney Summer Olympics, which drew rave reviews? So far, they're not far behind (and gymnastics wasn't sold out there either – not everyone loves the little pixies as much as Americans).

The scene at Darling Harbor was terrific - but the crowded cafes of the Plaka, in the shadow of the Acropolis, are almost as lively.

Are these Games as great as Barcelona, which I didn't attend but many veteran Olympic writers say is their favorite? They're not far behind – and they're beating Barcelona in ticket sales.

And how do they compare to Atlanta? There is no comparison. The United States hosted the worst Summer Olympics of the modern mega-Games era.

Everything people feared would happen here actually did happen in Atlanta: There was a bombing, the buses didn't run on time, the computer system didn't function, the crowds were suffocating and the weather was oppressive. Greece, the smallest country to host an Olympics in 52 years and one of the poorest countries in the European Union, is outperforming the world's super power.

On Saturday, Athens was abuzz. The efficient new metro system was packed with fans heading to every venue. Inside the Olympic park every event except trampoline was sold out (and you're not going to hold it against the Athenians if they don't support trampoline, are you?).

On Friday, 244,144 fans went to 47 events. Ticket sales have reached 3.2 million – close to the target of 3.4 million – and they're not done yet. The fact that most Athenians were on vacation until last week is part of the Games' new energy.

Not only were the Greeks underestimated, their capital city has been mistreated. For those of us who haven't been here before, Athens is a surprising delight.

Yes, it's crowded and poorly laid out. But it has dazzling historic sites around almost every corner, restaurants and bars that stay open until almost dawn, and wonderful, gracious hosts.

It also has a terrific coastline along the Saronic Gulf. A new tram runs along the water, and Saturday it carried both Olympic spectators and sunbathers. The beaches were packed and Athenians bobbed in the sparkling water.

The first eight days have been a success. I told my cabdriver how impressed I was.

"Of course," he said and shrugged. What did you expect from the folks who came up with idea in the first place?

Monkey

August 27th, 2004, 04:17 AM

Thank you for posting that nice, positive article written by some lucky guy in Athens whose paper is published not far from where I live (& watch Athens & the Games on TV :( ).

Yes, the doubters are turning into believers! :banana:

Mr. T

August 27th, 2004, 12:18 PM

Wern't you the guy who said these games would be failure?

Monkey

August 27th, 2004, 07:51 PM

Who, me?

No, never! :) I've been supporting Greece from the very beginning. :horse: :applause: :okay:

KONSTANTINOUPOLIS

August 27th, 2004, 08:18 PM

No gocaps, Whose Homepage is friend of Hellas :okay:

Greets WH :)

Mr. T

August 27th, 2004, 10:21 PM

Oh my fault then. Sorry :)

Monkey

August 28th, 2004, 08:10 AM

Efcharisto, Konstantinoupolis! :hug: And welcome back! :wave:

gm2263

August 29th, 2004, 05:54 PM

Ahhh guys, all the good things must come to an end and it so happens now. I will write an account with my personal notes of course about this extraordinary event which really rocked the hearts of every Hellene and made Greece and Athens household names to the rest of the world for the last 17 days and probably many days before and after.

For once, I never saw may city so colourful, so bright and so vibrant. I never saw so many faces cheering, laughing, dancing, having fun. A lowrise, clean, green ( !!! ), unpolluted (!!!!!!) city with efficient infrastructures, smily residents and the best weather (god is generous when it does) that allowed the unobstructed conduct of the games under some of the bluest and clearest skies I remember in Athens for a long time...

Yet it had to come to an end...

In a few hours, the Olympic flame will pass to the Chinese who will host it for four years in Beijing. I will certainly miss the atmosphere, the fun, the excitement.

Goodbye Olympic games and I hope you will continue to be with us in our hearts. As an Athenian and member of this forum, I wish you good buy in your trip and who knows? Maybe in many years, at a time that I will be saving my last breaths to welcome you back in my city, maybe we will meet again...

Goodbye...

http://www.athens2004.gr/Images/Sport%20Gallery/Ceremonies/14%20August%202004/51086559MB005_OLYopencer.jpg

http://www.athens2004.gr/Images/Sport%20Gallery/Ceremonies/14%20August%202004/51086559JF005_1_OLYopener.jpg

http://www.athens2004.gr/Images/Sport%20Gallery/Ceremonies/14%20August%202004/51086559DM311_OLYopener.jpg

De Snor

August 30th, 2004, 01:03 AM

I would like to thank all the forumers for the participation of this Olympic thread , it was the best ever.

:applause:

Monkey

August 31st, 2004, 06:16 PM

It is a superb thread indeed! :okay: I'm glad you re-opened it, Grumpy. :)

Prometheus

August 31st, 2004, 06:51 PM

Thank you to the Admins here at Euroscrapers for opening this thread.

Thank you to all who participated and made is great (especially Gregory!!!!).

And thank you to the people of Athens for putting on such a fantastic show!

THEY DID IT, AND IT WAS WONDERFUL!!!!!!!

:applause: :banana: :applause: :banana: :applause: :banana: :applause: :banana: :applause: :banana: :applause: :banana: :applause: :banana: :applause: :banana: :applause: :banana: :applause: :banana: :applause:

gmmour

September 3rd, 2004, 09:45 AM

The "unforgettable, dream Games" of Athens are over!

Athens lived a unique experience!

Now we're all heading towards the Paralympics, maybe those Games are even greater than the Olympics since here the Olympic spirit prevails!

Cheers,
George

gm2263

September 3rd, 2004, 02:14 PM

Originally appeared in http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/olympics/2004/writers/08/29/reilly.letter/index.html#

We were wrong
Greece overcame the world's paranoia to stage a glorious Games

by Rick Reily and Sports Illustrated

August 30, 2004

Dear Athens,

Well, we feel bad. We really owe you an apology.

So, sygnomi, as you would say. Sorry.

Sorry about the way we acted. We were paranoid and stupid and just flat out wrong. Our bad. If you want, we'll sleep on the couch.

We mocked you, ridiculed you, figured you wouldn't be ready. We envisioned you as a bunch of lazy, swarthy guys in wife-beater T-shirts chugging ouzo instead of finishing the baseball dugouts. We were sure steeplechasers would have to jump over drying cement, pole vaulters over tractors, divers into 3 feet of water.

We were wrong. It was all done and it was beautiful. OK, so the swimming stadium never got a roof. Big freaking deal. Imagine: having to swim in an outdoor pool. Let's all sue. Besides, you know what? It was more fun that way. Michael Phelps was out there so much he ended up with raccoon eyes from his goggles. He looked like a snowboarder. "Cool!" he said.

We predicted women madly weaving olive wreaths next to the podiums as the national anthems started up. We foresaw painters sprinting along painting stripes just yards ahead of 400-meter runners. We figured beams would be falling on people's heads. Who knew Wrigley Field would be a lot more dangerous?

We were sure every street corner would have three or four terrorists, just kind of killing time, looking for somebody to kidnap. Some bozo said, "The only place worse to hold an Olympics would be Baghdad." Please. I guarantee you, we felt a helluva lot safer these three weeks in Athens than we do in L.A. Or Detroit. Or the Republican National Convention.
We insisted you spend 1.2 billion euros on security. You had to put up blimps and cameras all over the city. You couldn't throw a bucket of grapes anywhere and not hit a soldier with a rifle. And nothing happened. Zero. The only incident was when our Secretary of State said he was coming to visit. In other words, if Colin Powell would've just been happy with his remote, you wouldn't have had a single problem.

Why you had to pay for our paranoia, I'll never know. It's the world's problem, the world should have to pay for it. What small country is going to be able to afford to host the Olympics anymore with these insane security demands? From now on, if a country wants to send a team to the Games, it pays its share of security, based on its share of the gross world product. In other words, it's our war, we should have to pay for it.

And our ignorance cost you more than just the billion or so Euros. Our Edvard Munch screams leading up to these games kept millions of people away. Corporations bailed on you. Fans chickened out. I know burly journalists who were too scared to come.

Sygnomi. Really. You did such a beautiful job on all the venues, arenas and stadiums and yet most of them were so empty you would've thought you'd stumbled upon a goiter seminar. At one basketball game, we counted: There were 307 people. One women's soccer game involving the U.S. started with fewer than 50 people. I had a friend call one night and say, "You better get over to gymnastics, quick. There's only 15,000 seats left."

The shopkeepers told us, "We've never seen it so dead in August." Hotels came down on their prices by three-quarters. Shirt stores lost their shirts.
It's too bad. It was a glorious Olympics. It really was. The opening ceremonies were fabulous. The nightlife was amazing. Even the stray dogs and cats couldn't have been friendlier. I got lost once and had to hitchhike out of nowhere, and a motorcyclist not only picked me up but drove for miles until he found me a cab. So, efharisto, as you say. Thanks.
Somebody did a poll and found that 97 percent of fans were "satisfied" with safety and security, 95 percent appreciated the job the volunteers did and 98 percent had a favorable impression of Greece. The other two percent were Paul Hamm's family.

And what did you get for all your trouble? Nothing but heartache. With 9,000-plus Greeks about to go delirious, our men's volleyball team handed you a giant buzzkill --- coming back from eight points down to win the fourth set and then the fifth to advance to the semifinals. The only really good game our men's basketball team played the whole time was against Greece.

It was Greek Tragedy Fortnight on TBS. It started even before the Games with your heartbroken judoka jumping from a balcony, followed two days later by her distraught boyfriend. Your two best sprinters turned in their credentials to end a doping/conspiracy/motorcycle wreck soap opera that tore the nation up. One of your favorite weightlifters had to give up a medal for a failed drug test, then wept in front of the world protesting his innocence.

And now you're stuck with about $8.5 billion in debt, a bunch of huge, expensive stadiums you'll never use (Hey, kids, who's ready to synchronized dive?!) and a whole lot of "Get Your Butt to Team Handball!" shorts nobody was around to buy. Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?

So, really, we're sorry. If it makes you feel any better, we all feel a lot more Greek now. We're all coming back to the States telling the daughter, "OK, you be Athena and I'll be Zeus!", demanding our favorite restaurants reserve us a table about 1 a.m. under the moon, right near a 2,500 year-old ruin. We keep spitting in people's hair for good luck, crushing plates for no reason and hollering "opa!" in the shower.

No idea how to make this right for you, except this: We vow, here and now, we'll never make you host us again.

See you in Baghdad, 2016.

…and my reply with the capacity of the most active Greek in this forum

Dear Rick,

Thank you for your kind apology as per August 30, appearing in SI.com (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/olympics/2004/writers/08/29/reilly.letter/index.html# ). It has been a pleasant surprise for me and my fellow countrymen to see that at least someone in the beginning, and quite a few later, representing the US and the English speaking press in general, felt like pushing the envelope of initial sympathy a bit further (albeit AFTER the completion of the games), venturing an apology spiced accordingly with some dithyrambic comments and (true-to-heart, undeniably) accolades.

I understand that probably the image and information you were receiving from Athens over the long and exhaustive period of preparation before the games –and I mean exhaustive not just for us Greeks, but also probably for all the ones with a valid concern about the conduct of flawless games to the best possible extend- was not at all encouraging but on the contrary you might have heard that even Chuan Antonio Samarang has given us the “yellow card” some four years ago.

Also, I can fully understand your concerns and logic about security which were based on linearly derived inferences following in sketchy terms the following motif:

“If they managed (you know who :D ) to do it in NY then they sure can do it anywhere”, especially in Athens which used to be a terrorist nest for not so long ago according to some of your papers, and where, being a US or English-speaking national was as dangerous as being a proponent of the heliocentric universe in the era of the holy inquisition :lol:. And Athens looked like a city that’s come out of the middle ages, with its stocky concrete buildings, its lack of highrise skyline ( trademark of economic progress worldwide), the narrow sidewalks, the hairy taxi drivers with the smelly feet that listen to traditional tunes and don’t even speak Greek properly (let alone English!!!), the gridlocks and the dirty streets, etc, etc, etc, or isn’t this the image that most of you had about my city?

You had it all ready in your minds, as if the hairy little people (some 4.5 million of them) that lived in a city made of concrete built around some ancient precious ruins were not capable of pulling out anything bigger than a high school ping-pong tournament. You actually believed that Muslim “terrorists” were playing backgammon with the fat and slimy Greek policemen waiting for the time that you would land so that, once they kidnapped you and had you in their hands, they could “work” on you and your adolescent daughters real good. You believed that your precious athletes would be running on unfinished venues and would be living in a village with no tap water and continuous electricity failures, using pigeons instead of internet connections. You had it all figured out didn’t you?

And nothing like that happened. The venues were state of the art, only half empty because it so happens that what’s on the first page of a “prestigious” paper, even slightly opinionated (slightly? :lol: ) tends to have an influence in the minds of people, especially in the dark times that we live in (nobody wants all of a sudden to be found cuffed on his knees in a dark room filled with strange headscarfed people speaking in tongues, slowly brandishing their swords above his neck- you know, the full scenario, while cursing in their own incomprehensible language the infidels and the sinful Olympic games).

The funny thing is that you almost held responsible the Greeks for not having achieved to fill the stadiums while having to counter the almost hysterical cries of 90% of the papers of the English speaking world that were alerting anyone not to come to Greece because the Calatrava roof would fall on their heads, because they would otherwise lose their heads in the hands of the terrorists that are also experts in backgammon :lol:, or that their daughters would be sodomised by the hordes of the shaggy short legged middle-eastern lovers that –like a modern personification of the long-shafted satyr statuettes sold in tourist shops in Plaka, on the slope of the Acropolis- tend to use their long members indiscriminately due to their primitive sex-driven nature. Not to mention the heat and smog-generated haze that would make Athens look like a place where “Citius-Altius-Fortius” could be easily replaced by a much hotter, some 30 degrees centigrade hotter version of “Arbeit Macht Frei” or something like that if you catch my drift, making mid-summer Las Vegas feel like the Swiss Alps in mid April…

And nothing happened. The weather was bearable, the new transport system, combined with the Olympic road system restrictions and the so-called “Olympic lanes” performed comparably to the one in Zurich on a smooth Monday morning, and, even I. was dazzled by the new metro and suburban rail stations, as well as the four-level mega-junctions in the recently completed new 100km+ highway system… And the athletes stayed in state-of the art premises and your colleagues enjoyed some 170,000 square metres of available space in total for the journalists and reporters in two venues, the Main Press center (MPC) , and the International Broadcasting Centre (the IBC), the biggest and best of their kind today.

And the terrorists didn’t come, although we were coerced as a nation to spend 1.2 billion dollars for piping-tom equipment and oversized balloons and blimps whose only use would be to eavesdrop hotline style conversations or spy the hot Greek lovers doing what they do best instead of playing backgammon with terrorists. And the lights didn’t go out, and the TV broadcast was flawless, and the long-forgotten Greek hospitality was there in full glory, and we had the biggest number of volunteers available ever recorded in the history of Olympic games. Plus, we did a heartbreaking opening ceremony reminding all of you who we are, were we’ve been, and what this business of the Olympic games gotta do with us. Yes, we had some mishaps but besides some boos (Greek lovers found another way to spend their energy that night :D:D:D), and a few doped athletes, Greek and foreign, the shambles and mayhem, the kidnaps and traffic chaos, everything that was predicted (or better say: wished by some of you :D) for Athens did not happen.

And then came the apologies, few in the beginning, many later.

And it didn’t take long before hysteria gave way to dithyrambs, and downplaying articles to hymns trying to dispel the increasingly apparent (and painful like a thorn in the eye) hubris that was taking place for over three years, where a small nation was –in the name of some “justifiable concerns”- abused in the worst manner by some of your best and most “prestigious” as well as “impartial” media.

And now came the apologies, well met, but a little too late to even partially repair the damage. A damage that incurred a flat cost of at least 1 billion dollars (normally, we would have spent some $200mn for security before 911, for which, it would be useful to note for those of the “objective” reporters that haven’t heard, Greece had nothing to do with it) paid for the acquisition of an unneeded sophisticated “security” state-of the art piping-tom technology. All that without counting the HUGE opportunity cost measuring God knows now many gazillions of dollars of potential tourists that decided not to come in fear of the rampant terrorists, the collapsing installations or the shaggy natives stalking their daughters in shady back alleys, or even the tropical cocktail of hot temperatures and gas-chamber density air pollutants that only the mutant shaggy inhabitants of this city can endure.

First of all, don’t misunderstand me dear friend, your apologies are more than accepted. I know that you probably had a very good time amongst us natives, partying, having fun, working and watching the widely accepted as probably the best games to date, coming second only to Sydney and this, only according to some hard-core pro-Anglo-Saxon media. We appreciate your words of apology and we ensure you that we want you all to come back, without the stress of professional duty, without the rush which is parts and parcels of any big event athletic or any other of equal magnitude.

We don’t hold any grudge for the countless insults and demeaning comments that appeared in the mainstream press of any country whose first language is English (and most of the ones where English is not :D), although it would be good to remember that had all this bad publicity taken place against physical or legal persons, a rightful lawsuit for slander with a high probability of winning the legal battle might have already been in effect.

Also, we don’t want you to sleep on the couch. In our book of hospitality, having a guest is something sacred and we keep it that way, with the exception of some bipeds that have “rooms to let” in the islands or some strange creatures driving yellow cabs asking half the Fort Knox deposits for a ride to the airport. What can we say, nobody’s perfect, but that’s as far as it goes.

In fact, we are waiting for you to come back as said before, to continue the fun, to speak to you in YOUR language (in contrast to the rest of the continental Europe as you probably know) and to accept your last orders for drinks at dawn’s early light –and even later.

For all the above, dear Rick and the rest of our friends, there is only one thing that I would like to ask from you on my behalf as well as the rest of my compatriots: Next time you will write something about my country, be it good or bad, be it right or wrong, be it about lousy cab drivers or nice beaches or whatever, just try to do it with a bit more RESPECT, like you did during the last week, respect that we earned the hard way over the last few years and, many, many years before that, but also respect that any small (or big for that matter) nation deserves regardless of history, race or culture –and I hope to God that a prominent and influential journalist like you that also represents the most powerful nation on the planet agrees on this!!!

To end, me and the rest of my people would very much appreciate this, more than given back some of the money spent on security and renting blimps and cameras, or used to pay yawning special forces agents resting on the side of competition venues, much more than you sleeping on the couch, calling yourselves Athina or Zeus, spitting on each other’s back for good luck (Jees- are there people that still do this? ) or shouting “opa” in the shower (I can assure you we don’t do this, I certainly don’t :lol: and if you try to do it anywhere in Greece, the neighbours will think you are mentally deranged or something). Your “syggnomi” and your fair share of respect from now on will do just fine, as long as it comes from the heart. For the rest, we have much time to talk about, until the 2016 Bagdad Olympics.

Regards,

GM2263