Transport strikes spark havoc in Belgium

BRUSSELS, May 13 (AFP) - Strikes over management cost-cutting plans and wages by train and bus drivers created traffic chaos in Belgium on Friday and disrupted major services to London and Paris, union officials said.

In Brussels, Eurostar trains to London and high-speed Thalys trains to Paris stopped running from mid-morning.

A strike had been scheduled for the afternoon, but union officials said an incident between an angry passenger and a rail service employee made them bring their planned two-hour stoppage from midday forward.

Regular SNCB state services from other major cities to the capital had stopped running at midnight, but began slowly returning to normal after 2:00 p.m. (1200 GMT), a spokeswoman said.

Marc Heinen from the CSC union said the strike is over a new "management contract" which the unions believe could result in the loss of some 2000 jobs.

Bus drivers in towns including Charleroi, Verviers, Nivelles and Lasne also held stoppages on Friday aimed at pushing through new wage claims.

The new station has been relocated 150 metres nearer the Meuse than the current building. The aim of this is to build rectilinear platforms to make entering the station and boarding trains easier. Of the present 13 platforms, only 9 will remain and the 5. 8-metre wide platforms will be particularly spacious and convenient. Three of them, 450 metres long, will be able to accommodate double unit Thalys trains.
The station will essentially be on three levels: travel centre and subway, platforms, and lastly the footbridges.
From the subway, the platforms can be accessed via stairs, escalators and glass elevators. From the footbridges, they are accessed via stairs and escalators. Travelators [moving walkways] located on the Meuse side, convey passengers effortlessly from the platforms towards the footbridges.

Movie:

ot2mGZe_pqU

Progress:

http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/9203/77mai2007rv5.jpg

http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/3826/02gn1.jpg

http://www.greisch.com/projet/2784-photos_chantier/57.jpg


http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/8011/800pxguillemins17januar.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/12/Guillemins-2-mars-2007.jpg/800px-Guillemins-2-mars-2007.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c4/Guillemins-9-avril-2006.jpg/800px-Guillemins-9-avril-2006.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fb/Guillemins-4-Janvier-2006.jpg/800px-Guillemins-4-Janvier-2006.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1c/Guillemins-3-Septembre-2005.jpg/800px-Guillemins-3-Septembre-2005.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ed/Guillemins-1er-Mai-2005.jpg/800px-Guillemins-1er-Mai-2005.jpg

Very interesting design, thankyou for posting this.

Nice!
The roof design looks to have been changed from the model shown in the first picture..

Here are some more pics:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/48/170807508_2a99bb71f1_o.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/63/170807516_dc0b3eaef1_o.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/68/172215753_8d61429d50_o.jpg

http://i1.trekearth.com/photos/24143/gare06.jpg


Here is a 360° panoramic view (you can also watch it fullscreen): http://geoimages.berkeley.edu/worldwidepanorama/wwp906/html/AlainHamblenne.html

Wonderful transformation!!
:drool::drool:
I lived in Liège in 1995 and this was Liège Guillemins station until 2002:
http://i13.tinypic.com/2e17t5s.jpg
^^What a difference...
:eek2::eek2:

It does look amazing.......but it's also getting tiring. Everything Calatrava designs is basically the same style......from the tower in Chicago, NYC World Trade Centre station, OAKA in Athens, etc.

Thnx for posting patroeski.
Really makes one believe that we have moved into the 21'st century.
Makes me feel like we are in the stone age here in the US. We do not have TGV's, much less train stations that look like that.

^^

no problem, I didn't know they don't got high-speed trains in the US.

Wonderful transformation!!
:drool::drool:
I lived in Liège in 1995 and this was Liège Guillemins station until 2002:
http://i13.tinypic.com/2e17t5s.jpg
^^What a difference...
:eek2::eek2:
Haha yes, it certainly is a big improvement. I think it's a bit too much for what it is though, which probably has a lot to do with the strange percentage rules of what has to be spent in Wallonia compared to what's spent in Flanders.
This station only gets 36.000 passengers a day, which really isn't that much.

You can clearly see it's a Calatrava :)
I like it a lot.
Is this station only for high speed trains?

You can clearly see it's a Calatrava :)
I like it a lot.
Is this station only for high speed trains?
No, it is the main station for the city, all trains go there.
I think there's only a high speed train every hour(?)

The first station built in Lièges looked much better than the modern one that's currently being replaced by the Calatrava designed one.

Lièges is tied to the TGV network as well as to the ICE network Given its size, Lièges is well connected.

Calatrava is so boring, always the same design!

Calatrava is so boring, always the same design!

He always makes his buildings in the same style, but his designs are never the same.

so what his design is awsome i like his design its his signature style in a way its futuristic

I didn't say its bad that an architect has his own style, on the contrary, he has created a style that no architect ever had before.

Aaargh! Another off-topic thread in Subways and Urban Transport! I think I'm going to have to start a petition...

There's not much variation, that's true.

^^He has his own style and it works everywhere and many people like it!
:yes:
Why should he change it?
:?

Fantastic Calatrava. Nothing less would be expected.

Here are some more pics:

http://www.trekearth.com/gallery/Europe/Belgium/Wallonia/Liege/Liege/photo299519.htm
http://www.trekearth.com/gallery/Europe/Belgium/photo348406.htm
http://www.trekearth.com/gallery/Europe/Belgium/Wallonia/Liege/Liege/photo341435.htm
http://www.trekearth.com/gallery/Europe/Belgium/Wallonia/Liege/Liege/photo340205.htm

Very nice, but just too expensive. Especially compared to the money given to the Brussels stations, who are far more important, and some look(ed) just as shitty als the "old" Guillemins...

But still a station I'll be visiting gladly, of course.

Yes I still don't think Liège deserves a station like this.
Off course the old station needed a renovation badly. But the amount spent on this project is ridiculous.
Brussels or Ghent deserved Calatrava more, judged only on the passengers every day.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c4/Guillemins-9-avril-2006.jpg/800px-Guillemins-9-avril-2006.jpg

Nice... another masterpiece by Calatrava!

Update:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/12/Guillemins-2-mars-2007.jpg/800px-Guillemins-2-mars-2007.jpg

impressive structure, the design is awesome!

Very beautiful roof!
:drool:

Update:

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g2/De_Snor/DSC02143.jpg

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g2/De_Snor/DSC02140.jpg

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g2/De_Snor/DSC02126.jpg

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g2/De_Snor/DSC02120.jpg

differance between the old station (left) and the the new one (right) :eek:

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g2/De_Snor/DSC02149.jpg

pictures by De Snor

Sweet station! Santiago Calatrava is amazing!

doesn't it get boring to design always the same?

Anyone got any construction news about the Charlleroi Metro extensions. Aparently they have plans to extend one line and open one of the unfinished/abandoned lines started in the 1980's. 2010 is the supposedly completion date?

Look at this thread: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=348578

27-may-2007:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3f/Guillemins-27-mai-2007.jpg

Nice progress!

It does look amazing.......but it's also getting tiring. Everything Calatrava designs is basically the same style......from the tower in Chicago, NYC World Trade Centre station, OAKA in Athens, etc.

I agree... I like this project cos I like Calatrava's work, I just wish he innovated a bit more... his buildings are way too repetitive.

I think that this project deserves a sunnier clime.

Quite spectacular though - i couldn't believe it when i went through the station on the Thalys train - knew instantly it was a Calatrava work - though the town was a bit small for such a station but this is europe....

I'm sorry, bud I don't like the station. It won't represent the city of Liége. It is to modern for it. It doesn't look like a station. It is a great design for an indoor skipiste or something.

215 pics from the very beginning up to June 14th 2007:
http://kronex.free.fr/1/projets/index.php?show_heading=list&dir=Gare%20TGV

( some of the last pics show the temporary terminal, to be in use for 18 months; it will enable do destroy the old station and complete track 1 and 2 that are to be located there)

I'm sorry, bud I don't like the station. It won't represent the city of Liége. It is to modern for it. It doesn't look like a station. It is a great design for an indoor skipiste or something.


??? Have you ever been to Liége? I've been several times and grandly historical is not what comes to mind.

Yes, it does have a lot of history still. But my first sight of the city was the highrises along the river. This is often the first sight for many visitors, and highrises do not denote history. In fact, it is possible that this is the most "highrise" dominated river in inland Europe.

And whilst I'm on that, I never understand why some people think historical European cities should remain stuck in the past and never build anything new or modern or cutting edge. Just look at the success of Spanish cities. Far more historical than most in Europe, yet just as famous for the cutting edge modern architecture.

http://www.pbase.com/grgeorgios/image/79012268.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/92/241733747_de68cb4a13_b.jpg

^^ nice pictures, and I could'nt agree with you more. I believe that old and modern architecture go extremely well together.:)

Liege is thinking about the future more then ever.

some of there projects:

mediacité:

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b139/Eric78/mediacit4.jpg

http://kronex.free.fr/1/projets/photos/Mediacite/640/H_projet_Ron_ARAD%20(1).jpg

http://kronex.free.fr/1/projets/photos/Mediacite/640/H_projet_Ron_ARAD%20(3).jpg

http://kronex.free.fr/1/projets/photos/Mediacite/640/D_Patinoire%20(1).jpg

http://kronex.free.fr/1/projets/photos/Mediacite/640/D_Patinoire%20(5).jpg

quartier Baviere:

http://kronex.free.fr/1/projets/photos/Quartier%20de%20Baviere/640/A01.JPG

http://kronex.free.fr/1/projets/photos/Quartier%20de%20Baviere/640/B_Baviere%20(2).jpg

grand casino:

http://kronex.free.fr/1/projets/photos/Grand%20Casino/640/A.jpg

http://kronex.free.fr/1/projets/photos/Grand%20Casino/640/A%20(5).jpg

cinéma des grignoux:

http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/7070/grignoux2cm7.jpg

http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/1708/grignoux3jw2.jpg

already built:

Pont de Wandre:

http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/4440/imageqsdd1xu0.jpg

Pont de Liege:

http://img453.imageshack.us/img453/2848/imsdfadfge6av7.jpg

surprise surprise, it looks just like everything else he designs, surely he could up with something new?

the official website:
http://www.euro-liege-tgv.be/

Although he is repetitive, Calatrava's work never ceases to amaze me :)

interesting design... but it's not like the others..... WHat I can see of his work is that the space in open places is some kind of virtual.... it's not a "tangible" space.... That's because I thought that he can't be completely repetitive.... I see it like "Calatrava's modules" with a diffreent configuration.....he just design the Shell... just in a few times (turning torso) we can see other kind of spaces....:)

The station looks great, though as has already been said, the style is quite similar to other Calatravas buildings (a skeleton of white curved steel, basically), however I don't think it's adequate for a city with less than 200,000 inhabitants, given the cost of Calatrava's projects and the limited number of passangers that it will manage.

Liège's agglomeration is some 600k.

Liège's agglomeration is some 600k.

yes, + crossover station for Maastricht, Luxemburg, Namur, Hasselt,Verviers...

an artist view:

http://i10.tinypic.com/52185ee.jpg

Big

15 sept:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f6/JEP070916InsideGuilleminsStation.jpg/800px-JEP070916InsideGuilleminsStation.jpg

Big Size (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f6/JEP070916InsideGuilleminsStation.jpg)

^^So beautiful...
:drool:

http://i6.tinypic.com/71fgp78.jpg

The building looks like a futuristic dinosaur skelton i like it! :lol:

Very outstanding station, i guess it canbe seen from a lot of points throughout the city.

Very outstanding station, i guess it canbe seen from a lot of points throughout the city.

yes, from some elevated locations
in my opinion, the most impressive sight is during the night, driving valley down on the highway from airport of Liège (collector of highways from Brussels and Paris)

I think it looks awful, like it belongs back in the 1960's. :ohno:

Well, Mr. Texas- I'd love if they had this in the USA (HSR,nice stations)- make sure you try to get your red buddies to vote democratic if you ever want to see something like this in your home state. Its the reds who are holding the country back from entering the 20th century, let alone the 21st. Its typical though, the stupidity of the anti-rail lobby is disgusting= a shameful travesty, and its all the republican's fault. Republicans = big oil, cars, highways. They also think rail is for communists, they care not about the environment, and its time for them to step aside.

if you don't understand French, the pictures will speak by themselves !!!!!!!!!! :
http://www.proxiliege.net/index.php?page=article&id=2461&idrub=25

A new topic about the railwaycathedral of Antwerp (Flanders, Belgium). First some information about the building:

Antwerpen-Centraal (Antwerp Central) is the name of the main railway station in the Belgian city of Antwerp. The original station building was constructed between 1895 and 1905. The stone clad terminus buildings, with a vast dome above the waiting room hall were designed by Louis Delacenserie and the vast (185 metres long and 44 metres high) iron and glass trainshed by Clement van Bogaert. The station is widely regarded as the finest example of railway architecture in Belgium.

Project:
Since 1998 large-scale reconstruction work has been under way to convert the station from a terminus to a through station. A new tunnel has been excavated between Berchem station in the south of the city and Antwerpen-Dam station in the north, passing under Central station, with platforms on two underground levels. This will allow HSL 4 and HSL-Zuid high-speed trains to travel through Antwerp Central without the need to turn around (the previous layout obliged Amsterdam-Brussels trains to call only at Berchem or reverse at Central). The station now has four levels and 14 tracks.


http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g2/De_Snor/DSC04260.jpg

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g2/De_Snor/DSC04259.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3050/2280814659_33e8ac0355_b.jpg

http://l.yimg.com/www.flickr.com/images/spaceball.gif

http://www.haagsebeemden.nl/hsl/HST_belgie/3D/images/foto%205.jpg

http://www.haagsebeemden.nl/hsl/HST_belgie/images/Foto%20station%20Antwerpen-Centraal%20anno%202006.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/225/485254784_e80da4e722_b.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2064/2094105378_821d384d17_b.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2079/2310789119_61f6782ef8_o.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2397/2148883010_1f0c1f9872_b.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2385/1517561731_1f7513ab86_o.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1430/1367556636_e292a8c3d4_b.jpg

Building a second station entrance:
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff297/Da_Vinci_photos/100_1169.jpg

Nice

I love the station! It's really impressive. :)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/44/Spoorwegkathedraal.jpg

my favourite railway station restyling

This station is really impressive!

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3268/2296098585_2e3052cc1e_b.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3081/2296897538_6fb42aaf17_b.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3061/2296903234_cdd8921e4a_b.jpg

Recently it got said that the works have a delay of 7 months !!



http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1275/1392532333_2ac532e7f3_b.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1293/1395351742_2d5231a41c_b.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1361/1405702861_460dbe9353_b.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1394/1392534913_88507b5856_b.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1285/1388179955_ecaec00804_b.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1168/1388045447_5be77e067f_b.jpg

Is the station going to be served by any kind of mass transit system, besides the eventual rail commuter services and international / national trains ?
I heard a subway was eventually planned years ago for Liège, and that even a section of tunnel had been build... What happened to this project ? What about a tramway network ?
Beautiful station by the way... reminds me of some to be seen in a foreseeable future on the TAV network in Italy...

^^here is a link (http://www.subways.net/belgium/liege.htm) to the mistery of the Liège subway
have fun :cheers:

Opening of the renovated dome:

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff297/Da_Vinci_photos/100_1659.jpg

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff297/Da_Vinci_photos/100_1663.jpg

Building a second station entrance:
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff297/Da_Vinci_photos/100_1704.jpg

Actually this station is as big as a airport if you want to see it all!

Very good job Encore!

Old meets new, an example for cities who wants to redesign their main old stations.

Can you believe in the seventies/eighties there were concrete plans to demolish it and replace it by some concrete monster?

Very beautiful building!

Two questions:
1. You showed pictures of a second station entrance under construction. When will all the work be completed?
2. My wife and I travelled to Antwerp from Paris on the Eurostar in the late 1990's - this definately was not the station that we arrived in. What is the name of that station that looks like it belongs in an Eastern Bloc country from the 1950's? As I recall, it was pretty ugly!

Very beautiful building!

Two questions:
1. You showed pictures of a second station entrance under construction. When will all the work be completed?
2. My wife and I travelled to Antwerp from Paris on the Eurostar in the late 1990's - this definately was not the station that we arrived in. What is the name of that station that looks like it belongs in an Eastern Bloc country from the 1950's? As I recall, it was pretty ugly!
That was Antwerpen-Berchem.
Some pics of the "nice" side:
http://www.everydayantwerp.com/wp-content/uploads/20071126.jpg
http://www.heemkundeberchem.be/stationberchem00.jpg
One of the platforms:
http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/2971/naamlooslp5.png
Some pics of the former station, it was destroyed in the seventies:ohno:.
http://img390.imageshack.us/img390/4787/berche1hq7.jpg
http://img390.imageshack.us/img390/93/berche2qp6.jpg
Here's a speciefied thread about it (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=467588) (in Dutch).
So you and your wife went bij Eurostar?:nuts:
That's not possible. Probably you went by Thalys (unless it was so at the end of the nineties, but that should wonder me).

That was Antwerpen-Berchem.
Some pics of the "nice" side:
Well that's an improvement. It's a shame they tore down that beautiful building to put up such a monstrosity - I thought that kind of stupidity was only done in the U.S.?!?

So you and your wife went bij Eurostar?:nuts:
That's not possible. Probably you went by Thalys (unless it was so at the end of the nineties, but that should wonder me).
Oops - my mistake - it was Thalys from Paris. So if you come from Paris now would you stop at Centraal?

Yes, a couple of months ago that change was made.

Now the Thalys (as well as the Benelux trains) goes underneath this station and a big part of the city in a tunnel. The trains also no longer call at Antwerpen-Berchem. I really hope they will make the platforms a lot nicer in Antwerpen-Berchem. Especially seeing the role it used to have, it was extremely ugly.

Greetings,
Glodenox

Hi Glodenox, I'm glad to see you on SSC again:):banana:.

Yes, indeed Glodenox, Station Berchem has fullfilled the role of international stations for many years. Fortunatly, the internatioals don't staop anymore in Berchem.
The square in front of the station has been a construction site for multiple years. Disgusting!

And @Quente: Here in Belgium, the people suffered the "demolitionitis' or 'demolishion sickness', especially in the sixties, seventies and eighties.

Well that's an improvement. It's a shame they tore down that beautiful building to put up such a monstrosity - I thought that kind of stupidity was only done in the U.S.?!?

Let's put it this way: in my city, the damage done to the historical center in the decades after WW2 was easily four times as bad as the destruction that was inflicted during the war itself.
I think it's only since the late eighties or so that we've gotten our act together again and are actually adding some value once more.
Do not think for a second that the US has a monopoly on that sort of thing.

very nice....

It's almost finished !!! :banana:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/francois_n/2079878995/

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3186/2496658812_e2d96ff9c5_b.jpg

^^ You have got a nice one. Great work.

Is the station going to be served by any kind of mass transit system, besides the eventual rail commuter services and international / national trains ?
I heard a subway was eventually planned years ago for Liège, and that even a section of tunnel had been build... What happened to this project ? What about a tramway network ?
Beautiful station by the way... reminds me of some to be seen in a foreseeable future on the TAV network in Italy...tramway was abundant in the 50ies but dissapeared in the mid-60ies.
a new line (17Km, north-south) has been decided as a first leg of a new network: it will (logically!) serve the station (like the future ones) there is also a suburban network on traintracks in project.

Situation on April 11th 2009:

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g92/Benonie/Luik/KeulenBen002.jpg

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g92/Benonie/Luik/KeulenBen003.jpg

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g92/Benonie/Luik/KeulenBen007.jpg

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g92/Benonie/Luik/KeulenBen004.jpg

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g92/Benonie/Luik/KeulenBen005.jpg

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g92/Benonie/Luik/KeulenBen006.jpg

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g92/Benonie/Luik/KeulenBen010.jpg

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g92/Benonie/Luik/KeulenBen012.jpg

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g92/Benonie/Luik/KeulenBen014.jpg

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g92/Benonie/Luik/KeulenBen013.jpg

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g92/Benonie/Luik/KeulenBen017.jpg

^^Stunning.:cheers:

Test drives on the LGV 3 (Liège–Aachen):

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/be/diesel/mainline/55/blue-yellow/5529ha1.jpg

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/be/diesel/mainline/55/yellow-green/5520-5542/5528he1.jpg
railfaneurope.net

What do they test ? Obviously not everything since they are using diesels units to push/pull this train.

What do they test ? Obviously not everything since they are using diesels units to push/pull this train.

It's a telecom measuring train.

So this stretch is almost ready to open?

Do you know what the status is of LGV 4? Wikipedia says it will open this year as well.

^^ The LGV 3 will be opened in June.

On the LGV 4 the first trains should also start a service between Antwerpen and the station Noorderkempen just before the Dutch border next month. But it will use conventional trains so it won't be a high speed service (see picture).

http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/3850/m6testtreine.jpg

The High Speed Service will only start when all the Thalys sets have the ERTMS installed, that operation is in progress right now. But the sets will be used on the LGV 3, this means the Thalys PBA sets will be the last ones that will be modified. The operation on the LGV 4 & HSL Zuid won't start before December 2009.

The V250 trains from AnsaldoBreda for the Amsterdam - Brussels services are also not ready for commercial service. Some positive news about these trains, recently 2 sets have arrived in the Netherlands for tests. But it will still take some time before they will be ready to be handed over to NSHispeed and the NMBS. And then all the staff training still has to be done, I don't think they will start the service this year.

OK thanks. I am glad to read that Thalys will be running on LGV 4 and HSL Zuid by the end of the year.

I'm sure that they'll find another reason why it has to be delayed another year. Once the Thalys drives there, I believe it, not before that. I don't know how long it will take before the v250 will drive there, but 2057 might be a good guess :ohno:

I'm thinking they should cancel the v250 order and go with someone else for trains since those are way too late.

So far AnsaldoBreda has delivered 2 of the trains. Officially the trains aren't too late, btw. The deadline for the trains is 9 monts after the HSL-Zuid has been finished. However, there are still problems with the ERMTS system, so officially it has not been finished yet. They should lynch the dumbass that set up this contract :ohno:

However, there are still problems with the ERMTS system, so officially it has not been finished yet.

Yes it has. The problem is not with the signalling system on the line, but with the systems in the trains. The line is finished and has been handed over to the operators many moons ago.

BTW, AnsaldoBreda hasn't delivered a single train yet. Yes, two have gone to the Netherlands, but they are still owned by Ansaldo and are there simply for tests. They're not even finished yet, as they don't even have interiors fitted.

OK thanks. I am glad to read that Thalys will be running on LGV 4 and HSL Zuid by the end of the year.

Commercial peration will start on LGV 3 this year in June only with the
pooled DB/NS ICE3 high speed trains. Their ERTMS signalling equipment
seems to be ready and operational. That's 3 train pairs per day. For both
directions, timetables remain untouched as of Aachen and beyond. Trains will
leave Brussels 19 minutes later and arrive 19 minutes earlier.

There are not yet enough Thalys sets fitted with ERTMS to run a service
now, so this will have to wait till december. At that time, all Thalys trains
to and from Köln will also use LGV3.

Commercial operations with Thalys trains sets on LGV4 and HSL Zuid will
use the second batch of modernized train sets; in other words, it's not for
this year yet. LGV4 operations will only begin with domestic services from
Antwerp Centraal to Noorderkempen, operated by a series 13 loco surrounded
by bilevel M6 cars, like shown on the picture (this is because the M6 cab
units already have their ERTMS system operational, whereas the HLE 13
doesn't), with the cab unit alone on one side of the loc probably not open
for passengers - the four cars on the other side provide largely enough
capacity.

Marc.

"Line 3 completes high speed network
15 Jun 2009
BELGIUM: Line 3 between Liège and the German border was inaugurated on June 12, completing the last link in the star-shaped national high speed network and making Belgium the first European country to have a network of high speed lines linking its borders.[…]"

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news_view/article/2009/06/9701/line_3_completes_high_speed_network.html

I must say: CONGRETULATIONS Belgium !!! It's good for the region, and you do much better than Holland.
As a Dutchy I feel ashamed that the procedures take so long in Holland, and here they are always complaining about money. And I feel ashamed that Holland boycotted earlier the Antwerp-Ruhrgebied railline.

Anyway, as an Utrechter, our most important line to Brussels is upgrading.
2nd important line should be now to make the tracks from Utrecht to Arnhem to 4 tracks, for higher speed.
AND: the government thinks again about a railline between Utrecht and Breda, so than people from the north-east can come quicker for a day to Antwerp etc. :-)

see picture from MOMO 1435
I like the roadsign on the left side :-) hope it helps for high-speed cars.
At least they left some space for slow traffic: cows.
On the right side the idea of a rail track mainly combined +
next to the to upgrade highway Utrecht-Breda.
http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/4790/roadsign.jpg

Yeah, congratulations Belgium! I have often taken the train between Brussels and Western Germany and he old line - though quite pretty, in terms of nature - was a bit of a nightmare. This improvement will be welcomed by millions and no doubt give the railway sector in Belgium a shot in the arm. :cheers:

I take issues with the article, though, according to which this is "...making Belgium the first European country to have a network of high speed lines linking its borders". I mean... surely not? You could just as well argue that the Lille-Paris-Nimes-Figueras connection (1300 km long, I may add) consitutes a linking of France's borders. True, the bit between Nimes and Perpignan is not HS, but then again, neither is the bit bewteen Louvain and Liege - to which comes that the sections of LGV3 east of Liege, whilst a huge improvement over what was, isn't HS in strictu sensu of the European 250 km/h definition.

Yeah, congratulations Belgium! I have often taken the train between Brussels and Western Germany and he old line - though quite pretty, in terms of nature - was a bit of a nightmare. This improvement will be welcomed by millions and no doubt give the railway sector in Belgium a shot in the arm. :cheers:

I take issues with the article, though, according to which this is "...making Belgium the first European country to have a network of high speed lines linking its borders". I mean... surely not? You could just as well argue that the Lille-Paris-Nimes-Figueras connection (1300 km long, I may add) consitutes a linking of France's borders. True, the bit between Nimes and Perpignan is not HS, but then again, neither is the bit bewteen Louvain and Liege - to which comes that the sections of LGV3 east of Liege, whilst a huge improvement over what was, isn't HS in strictu sensu of the European 250 km/h definition.


They mean, all LGV lines are completed as planned.
Maybe other plans will be developped (Brussels-Luxemburg ??).

But this project is ready. More or less on time.

So full speed to Paris, London, Cologne is possible now.

To the North, we wait a little more for our Dutch neighbours who unfortunately make things always complicated :)

Lower speed in the Soumagne tunel is maybe good for safety ??

From the border to Cologne, there is still some work to do, isn't it ???

[…]

From the border to Cologne, there is still some work to do, isn't it ???

Yes, between Aachen and Düren, upgrade from 160 km/h to 200 km/h.

Even though HSL Zuid is not ready for Thalys service yet, the track is complete which is a good thing for sure.

I know that there is a rail tunnel west of Aachen that is being upgraded and double tracked to allow higher speeds for Thalys.

Thalys can't use LGV 3 at the moment, from winter Thalys will use it.

ICE uses the new line now.

ICE leaves the LGV 3 at the western end in Chênée. The train is just passing the voltage changeover from 25 kV 50 Hz to 3 kV DC, all pantographs are down:

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/de/electric/emu/ICE/ICE-3M/Belgium/4604ch1.jpg
railfaneurope.net

Some nice views of the new station:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2791/4340750904_c9f51ff25e_b.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2786/4286150100_5df4ac2e4b_b.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4042/4286100160_5de2091433_b.jpg

Wow.

A feast for the eye, but as with most of Calatravas designs it is not a practical solution. I can imagine standing on the platform during windy winter days freezing my but. The main problem I have with Calatrava is that he never design for the end user, it is as if he totally forget that his buildings are supposed to be utilized by humans, so most often his designs end up unpractical and even dangerous as in the case with some of his bridges.

that's fantastic!

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b130/leonbonhoff/Treinfoto/P3200268.jpg
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b130/leonbonhoff/Treinfoto/P3200268.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b130/leonbonhoff/Treinfoto/P3200272.jpg
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b130/leonbonhoff/Treinfoto/P3200272.jpg

http://i771.photobucket.com/albums/xx355/Dom44/IMG_2673_1024.jpg
http://i771.photobucket.com/albums/xx355/Dom44/IMG_2673_1024.jpg

http://i771.photobucket.com/albums/xx355/Dom44/IMG_2674_1024.jpg
http://i771.photobucket.com/albums/xx355/Dom44/IMG_2674_1024.jpg

http://i771.photobucket.com/albums/xx355/Dom44/IMG_2676_1024.jpg
http://i771.photobucket.com/albums/xx355/Dom44/IMG_2676_1024.jpg

The nices railwaystations in the Benelux for me is:
#1 Liege
#2 Antwerpen
#3 Amsterdam

ICE uses the new line now.

ICE leaves the LGV 3 at the western end in Chênée. The train is just passing the voltage changeover from 25 kV 50 Hz to 3 kV DC, all pantographs are down:

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/de/electric/emu/ICE/ICE-3M/Belgium/4604ch1.jpg
railfaneurope.net

Does anyone know how this process works and be able to explain this in detail?

Is the changeover automatic based on beacons or does the train operator have to manually lower the pantos?

What happens during the changeover from within the cab? Is there a voltage selection that needs to be selected from the controls or when does the train auto-detect incoming voltage once the pans are raised?

People, do we just have to celebrate progress here all the time, even when on the ground things are not so fabulous? Another rail forum reported that a few days ago. Due to engine damage, two Thalys from Amsterdam to Paris reached Brussels several hours late. As the French high-speed network shuts down at night, the double train was not permitted to continue beyond Brussels. As no train engineer was available for taking the train through the regular network to Paris, they simply made all passengers spend the night in Brussels without providing hotel rooms. The train finally arrived the next morning 13 hours late. So fancy train stations, hightec to heck if the trains are managed like this.

^^Look at your own country first, how is highspeed rail doing in Turkey?:tongue:
and tell me how many times does that occur?

Oh please, do not be so primitive to turn this into a "my country's better than your country" thing. I can say for a fact that no Turkish High-Speed train has yet run 14 hours late, simply since they are only around for two years and the line is only a 250 km - ride anyways. As for delays on old-fashioned lines, of course they can be horrible here.
The one thing they always manage in this country (and for that matter, in most countries I can think of) is to organize some busses in case a train breaks down. As for Thalys, the last time I used it, my train was delayed because, as one fellow waiting passenger translated from Dutch for me, "for lack of a train engineer."
So what i am aiming at is:
# Why does the French rail network have to be so insistent on shutting down at night that they leave over 400 passengers stranded?
# Why is Thalys too cheap to keep one or two train engineers on reserve like other companies would do?
# Why is Thalys too cheap to provide hotel rooms as they are obliged to by EU law?

^^Look at your own country first, how is highspeed rail doing in Turkey?:tongue:
and tell me how many times does that occur?

Woah woah, the man raises a valid point.

# Why does the French rail network have to be so insistent on shutting down at night that they leave over 400 passengers stranded?
# Why is Thalys too cheap to keep one or two train engineers on reserve like other companies would do?
# Why is Thalys too cheap to provide hotel rooms as they are obliged to by EU law?

I'm not sure if it's EU law for train travel, might just be plane travel.

There are many problems with Thalys... they should be ashamed about this, but they are not. :nuts:

There are many problems with Thalys... they should be ashamed about this, but they are not. :nuts:

What would you expect from a company which is mostly a joint-venture of the Belgian and French state railways.
That means to me that passengers are considered annoying and the main reason of everything that goes wrong.
Let's have a strike :bash:

Instead of relying on what the newspapers say (that usually have hardly any knowledge of trains anyway), we could also look at what exactly happened as they saw it in Brussels:

Roughly translated from http://hgbtf.net/viewtopic.php?p=143101#p143101 (post by gysev):
- Thalys 9358 lost all traction on the HSL between Schiphol en Rotterdam, driver wasn't able to fix the problem;
- In the Netherlands no attempts were made at towing away the stranded train (do they actually have locomotives to help in such situations, like our 55 TVM?) and the next Thalys 9362 was designated for towing. Then the stupid decision was made to let the train drive through to Rotterdam and return from there to couple with the stranded 9358. The passengers had to stay on board even though they could've easily taken the Benelux train with which they'd be able to get the last Thalys in Brussels.
- After the coupling - due to the nature of the defects - a maximum speed of 160 km/h was set, which obviously didn't do any good to the travel time. Therefore the train was refused by RFF (France): it would arrive well after 1h during the night in Paris and there were urgent maintenance works foreseen.
- Brussels-South station wasn't informed that the train wasn't allowed to continue until 22h (!). Until that time, Thalys said they were looking for a driver to use the classic lines to get to Paris. Try to find a hotel room for 370 passengers in such a short time. It's impossible, even more so because after 22h there's only one person of B-Mobility on duty, who also has to take care train connections, taxi bills, organisation of shunting and so on.
When I look at that, it seems to me that it's a sad combination of things going wrong. A failing train just at the time that maintenance works are going to be performed in France and bad communication between the parties.

There's no need to bash the Belgian rail company for this. Sure, they probably could've done better, but they're most certainly not the only ones that made mistakes here and as such don't deserve to be blamed for everything.

Greetings,
Glodenox

Thalys didn't live up to it's customers expectations. Hotel rooms should have been available, Thalys could have been perfectly aware that train wasn't going anywhere anymore, they have their contacts with SNCF, too, they knew works were scheduled.

The reason why I wanted to mention this incident here is because I believe this is not a singular incident, but rather the shape of things to come in a Europe with liberalized railways. When a probelm arises, the infrastructure company (here French Rail) will say, "it is not our problem whether the passengers get home or not, we only take care of the infrastructure." The national rail company (here the Belgian one) will say, "this is not our problem, we are not running this train and have to much on our hands with our own trains." Finally the operating company, in this case Thalys, has too lean a structure, no engines for hauling damaged trains and no reserve train engineers, to deal with a problem efficiently on its own. In the age of singular national rail companies, this incident would not have taken on these absurd dimensions.

I think Turkey and all his inhabitants can be very happy if they ever get a transportation system as good the one in countries like France and Belgium...

In the age of singular national rail companies, this incident would not have taken on these absurd dimensions.

I disagree. Just look at how well the old national rail companies care about their passengers when they know there's no penalty for bad performance. SNCB and SNCF are despised by their passengers but those have nowhere to go except to a car, on an already overcrowded national road network.

In the Netherlands, NS feels the pressure on them because their concession is at stake and the competition is keen on taking over national rail services - Arriva and Veolia have already expressed their interest.

In the UK, passenger satisfaction is considered during the lifetime of a concession, and it also determines whether or not a given concession is extended or re-tendered. Serco and Abellio have been given a 2 year extension of their Northern Rail concession because they score so well on passenger satisfaction.

State-run railroads have their benefits, but that is mostly to keep people job-occupied. Just look at how many staff SNCB has, then look at how many staff NS has. It's competition that forces companies to innovate and focus on passenger experience and satisfaction.

The reason why I wanted to mention this incident here is because I believe this is not a singular incident, but rather the shape of things to come in a Europe with liberalized railways. When a probelm arises, the infrastructure company (here French Rail) will say, "it is not our problem whether the passengers get home or not, we only take care of the infrastructure." The national rail company (here the Belgian one) will say, "this is not our problem, we are not running this train and have to much on our hands with our own trains." Finally the operating company, in this case Thalys, has too lean a structure, no engines for hauling damaged trains and no reserve train engineers, to deal with a problem efficiently on its own. In the age of singular national rail companies, this incident would not have taken on these absurd dimensions.

I think you're completely wrong, the problem has nothing to do with the (partial)liberisation of the raliways, such things also happened earlier.
It is however popular in union circles to blame the liberisation for everything that goes wrong.
The problem is just that for passengers operations the NMBS and SNCF are still the same as decades ago, only in the freight operations they are having difficulties because of their attitude.

Any plans for reforms of SNCF and SNCB?

The only way to get SNCB to drastically reform is when they actually can go bankrupt. They enjoy bankrupcy protection, which is why the unions can demand whatever they like - and get their way - without any negative impact on the company's future. SNCB in its current form exists since 2005 and has never made profit, always losses between 50 million and 200 million euros if it's not more.

When SNCB loses this protection, they'll have to heavily reorganize and get rid of a boatload of redundant staff, or face bankrupcy. It's the only way to change SNCB.

Since some time, SNCB can go bankrupt, at least on paper. The legal framework that protected SNCB from bankruptcy has been changed under European pressure.

The Desiro ML trains are almost ready to enter service. NMBS/SNCB has ordered 305 of these.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3587/5737296738_229873cb56_b.jpg
http://www.flickr.com/photos/35507270@N05/5737296738/

The new locs (Siemens HLE 18) are entering service too (2 years delay due to problems at Siemens)

From now on, 8 new locs will be delivered every month (total 120).

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3622/3337786976_0d63dfe6d4_b.jpg
http://www.flickr.com/photos/31781061@N06/3337786976/

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6003/5902741058_18527b4beb_b.jpg
http://www.flickr.com/photos/maartenschoubben/5902741058/

^^ Will they be used on Benelux trains until Fyra comes to Belgium?

I believe they don't have clearence in the Netherlands yet

No, at first they will be used on the Oostende - Eupen route. Then they will be replacing the HLE 13 and HLE 27 on passenger services, this means that they will be reaching Luxembourg or Lille but not to the Netherlands (not even Maastricht because the IC Brussel - Maastricht will be discontinued very soon. And I guess that the NMBS and NS are hoping that the Fyra will come into service before all te HLE 18s are delivered.

But who knows what happens when the delay of the Fyra trains takes even longer.....

New train station in Mechelen:

Video of the model:
u5YIKtm1S-g?

Some renders:
http://i706.photobucket.com/albums/ww67/meurisse/36%20Mechelen%20in%20beweging%2023%20april%202010/07.jpg

http://i706.photobucket.com/albums/ww67/meurisse/36%20Mechelen%20in%20beweging%2023%20april%202010/06.jpg

Some short history:
1835 - In Belgium a railway was opened on May 5 between Brussels and Mechelen. It was the first railway in continental Europe.

http://blogimages.seniorennet.be/trekhaak73/185-43221f27381d0946eb7075ea1c8f9055.jpg

http://fotoalbum.seniorennet.be/incl/getimage2.php?imageid=172475&albumid=4395&typeid=4

They demolished this station in 1958 to build a new one, this one:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/56/Station_Mechelen.JPG/800px-Station_Mechelen.JPG

:bash:

Both the new and old ones are nothing special. The second (from 1958) needs maintenance, though.

Here are some pictures from a nearby railway line under construction. It's located in the median of the E19/A1 motorway and goes from Mechelen to Schaarbeek. This means it can (and most likely will) be used for a faster connection between Brussels and Antwerp. The line allows for a speed of 160km/h at the moment, but I was told that most parts of it are designed for 200km/h.

http://www.tomputtemans.com/images/Diabolo/Diabolo-lijn25-111.jpg

Half-way along the track, there are tunnels that allow for a connection to the Brussels Airport station:
http://www.tomputtemans.com/images/Diabolo/Diabolo-lijn25-113.jpg

http://www.tomputtemans.com/images/Diabolo/Diabolo-lijn25-109.jpg

http://www.tomputtemans.com/images/Diabolo/Diabolo-lijn25-107.jpg

Tons of other pictures and a whole discussion about it (in Dutch/French) can be found here: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=974710

Greetings,
Glodenox

Both the new and old ones are nothing special. The second (from 1958) needs maintenance, though.

Presumably cos even the old one seems to be missing tarmac, gridlock and toll booths?

... :nuts:

Here are some pictures from a nearby railway line under construction. It's located in the median of the E19/A1 motorway and goes from Mechelen to Schaarbeek. This means it can (and most likely will) be used for a faster connection between Brussels and Antwerp. The line allows for a speed of 160km/h at the moment, but I was told that most parts of it are designed for 200km/h

Not entirely true...

This is the Diabolo project which allows trains from Brussels to travel to Mechelen via Zaventem airport. Lijn 25 will be upgraded to 160 km'h anyway so there is no benefit to use the Diabolo other then serve Brussels airport. Rumour has it that Fyra will use this line and serve both Schiphol and Brussels airport while Thalys will use the upgraded Lijn 25.

Presumably cos even the old one seems to be missing tarmac, gridlock and toll booths?

... :nuts:

No, because it is a building out of proportion with the foreground, the main platform hall, and couldn't be less common than yet-another-copy of the same station style of which dozens of units were built between 1880-1910 from Charleroi to Leeuwarden.

Not entirely true...

This is the Diabolo project which allows trains from Brussels to travel to Mechelen via Zaventem airport. Lijn 25 will be upgraded to 160 km'h anyway so there is no benefit to use the Diabolo other then serve Brussels airport. Rumour has it that Fyra will use this line and serve both Schiphol and Brussels airport while Thalys will use the upgraded Lijn 25.

This is intended to be used by all Antwerp - Brussel IC and International services, not just those calling at the airport. Apart from being faster this line has the advantage of giving a better insertion in to the whole North-South complex, which means that IC services won't get in the way of local and IR services anymore.

The old fast Brussel - Antwerp line feeds the eastern tracks of the North South connection. The new line feeds in to the western tracks, which means there will be not as many conflicting movements anymore between Thalys and IC services, and locals.

Not entirely true...
I fail to see where I made a mistake...

As said by K_, there won't be as many conflicts (and I've seen plenty of those already) that way. Also, not the whole section of L25 can be made 160km/h. Near Vilvoorde and Mechelen, the train will always have to slow down, even after the addition of the bypass of Mechelen in 2014 (that's what the plans currently say), which won't be the case for the new line (it can connect directly to the bypass). So in the end, the new line should be a faster option if you look at the average travel time.

I was also aware of those rumours, but I don't like posting rumours since they're... well... rumours.

Greetings,
Glodenox

I was also aware of those rumours, but I don't like posting rumours since they're... well... rumours.


As to those rumours: Thalys will certainly use the new line (which is called 25N btw.). The new line offers a conflict free approach to the HSL terminal in Brussel Zuid. I doubt that Infrabel would even allow Thalys to still use line 25 once 25N is ready...

Also, not the whole section of L25 can be made 160km/h. Near Vilvoorde and Mechelen, the train will always have to slow down, even after the addition of the bypass of Mechelen in 2014 (that's what the plans currently say)

At the time being, the maximum speed in Vilvoorde is 140 Km/h. I do not think that we'll be needing a lot of works to raise the speed up.

Near Mechelen that could be more tricky indeed; anyway I do believe that the new station combined with a new track laying before and after the station could mean the end of the 100 Km/h restriction in the station. On line 25, of course. Maybe not up to 160 Km/h, but 20 or 40 Km/h can be won.

It is on the books that the new bridges in Duffel will also bring a speed increase to 160 Km/h from Nekkerspoel to Kontich. The whole line is already signalled for such speed. ;)

Can someone give me a rundown on a report I saw on RTBF's midday news today (via TV5 Monde) about what the network operator plans to do over the next 10 years (http://www.rtbf.be/info/societe/detail_securite-sur-le-rail-la-sncb-presente-un-plan-de-3-7-milliards-d-euros?id=6946633) please?

Can someone give me a rundown on a report I saw on RTBF's midday news today (via TV5 Monde) about what the network operator plans to do over the next 10 years (http://www.rtbf.be/info/societe/detail_securite-sur-le-rail-la-sncb-presente-un-plan-de-3-7-milliards-d-euros?id=6946633) please?

Basically they intend to completely equip the network with ETCS over the next 10 years. Part of the network will see ETCS-LS though (makes sense).
At the moment Infrabel (the network operator) is busy installing TBL1+, which uses ETCS hardware, and is a little bit ahead of schedule here.

The end result is that probably ETCS will become mandatory for anyone operating on the Belgian network from 2025 on.

Basically they intend to completely equip the network with ETCS over the next 10 years. Part of the network will see ETCS-LS though (makes sense).

They also work on a plan to replace all existing signalling towers by only 10
signalling centres that will cover the whole country. This is supposed to be
finished by 2020, but I suspect 2022-2025 is a more realistic expectation.

This is not as difficult as it seems, as almost all mechanical signals and cabins have already disappeared. What remains is essentially all-relays interlockings,
which are easily operable remotely. So the interlocking rooms remain in place
where they are, but they become unmanned and remote-controlled.

I visited one of those regional signalling centers a few weeks ago, and the
level of control that they have from there is quite impressive, much more
detailed than from the control board of an all-relay interlocking tower.

I have a question: what is the next high-speed rail project in Belgium apart from Bruxelles-Antwerpen? Liége-Luxembourg?

It's not 'real' high speed, but the NMBS/SNCB is planning to use Pendolino-trains on the Brussels-Luxembourg line, because they run faster through the curves in the Ardennes.

http://www.railway-technology.com/projects/pendolino-train/images/1-pendolino-train.jpg http://www.railway-technology.com/projects/pendolino-train/images/2-pendolino-train.jpg

^^ They should build at at least a Bruxelles-Charleroi-Namur HSL system.

The one thing about high speed rail is that you don't build a full HSR for cities that are like 50 km's apart. You really only build a full new faster line if the traffic demand is big enough and I doubt that's the case in this particular example.

It's also very noticeable that the current lines are very international orientated. They didn't even bother to build a new High Speed Line between the 2 main cities Brussels and Antwerp. Why would they then build a new line in Wallonia? And why then not a HSL to Genth and Brugge (the economic hart of Belgium), either from Brussels or from Antwerp? But now it becomes political side to it, someone has to pay for a new line after all and Wallonia doesn't have the money.... But let's not get into that, it's already a big mess in the real political arena. No need to also bring that into here.

^^ The Charleroi-Namur-La Louvière triangle is underserved by new infrastructure. Pretty much everything that exists today already existed in 1980, be it airports, highways, railways.

Anyway, the Bruxelles-Antwerpen like is a critical case. They need a 270km/h line between two cities. In the Netherlands, they built HSL-Zuid between Schiphol and Rotterdam, a distance shorter than Antwerpen-Bruxelles. Then, they could run Amsterdam-Rotterdam-Bruxelles Midi trains that don't stop in Antwerpen, for instance, like they have Bruxelles Midi-Paris Nord trains that don't stop in Lille.

^^ It might be good if you for once look a bit more into the backgrounds of why things. Then you know that as much as the infrastructure of Wallonia needs upgrading it's never happened because infrastructure there is a political minefield. A look into the history of the Charleroi pre metro would be a good start, it's a good example of political decision making in this field going horridly wrong.

And skipping Antwerp is pure nonsense, you can only skip the 2nd biggest city if there's enough traffic for a train from Amsterdam to Antwerp on it's own. And even then the time that can be saved is only very limited and probably not worth it. Even only upgrading the Brussels - Antwerp line with more speed increases and by-passes at Mechelen and Kontich is already much more effective for both international and national services between Antwerp and Brussels.

The line straightening in Kontich reached a new milestone by having one line moved over to the straight bridge, and the bypass in Mechelen is coming in the next few years, with preparation works starting next year. Recently, the section between Mechelen and Brussels has become nearly completely 160 km/h as well.

There's no room for a dedicated high-speed line between Brussels and Antwerp. I do believe it should be possible to upgrade the lines further to 200 km/h though.

Greetings,
Glodenox

It's also very noticeable that the current lines are very international orientated. They didn't even bother to build a new High Speed Line between the 2 main cities Brussels and Antwerp. Why would they then build a new line in Wallonia? And why then not a HSL to Genth and Brugge (the economic hart of Belgium), either from Brussels or from Antwerp?

Actually in Belgium they did build high speed railway from Brussel to Antwerpen, and from Brussel to Gent in the 30ies. They were quite ahead there.

These lines are still there. The Brussel - Gent line will be good for 200 kph once the works there are finished, and Gent - Brugge will be 200 kph too. That's all the high speed that part of the country needs.

On such short distances increasing the speed beyond 200 kph is not going to give any gains in travel time that cannot be achieved cheaper by better organisation.

^^ Recurring issue: the configuration of line essentially prevents any rail service Rotterdam-Bruxelles that doesn't, at least, slow down to 80 km/h for 3 kilometers in Antwerpen.

^^ Recurring issue: the configuration of line essentially prevents any rail service Rotterdam-Bruxelles that doesn't, at least, slow down to 80 km/h for 3 kilometers in Antwerpen.

Given that there are probably more people travelling Rotterdam - Antwerpen by train than there are travelling Rotterdam - Brussel by train this is not a real problem.
(There is btw a lot of opposition to the planned high speed services. It appears that those pesky customers prefer flexibility over speed...)

It appears that those pesky customers prefer flexibility over speed.

Customers?!?! Who needs em! :lol:

Are there any travel time improvements once the N25 project finishes? For example on Rotterdam - Brussels.

Are there any travel time improvements once the N25 project finishes? For example on Rotterdam - Brussels.

Not known yet. But I don't hold my breath. After the completion of the
L2 and the 4 tracks between Brussels and Leuven, the service improvements
have been minimal. Basically, one does not travel faster between Brussels
and Liège now than in the seventies. Speed improvements are used to build
more slack in the schedules, so that SNCB does not pay penalties for their
trains being late. Hell, even with that, they can't keep up with the schedules,
late running has never been so widespread as today.

^^ Recurring issue: the configuration of line essentially prevents any rail service Rotterdam-Bruxelles that doesn't, at least, slow down to 80 km/h for 3 kilometers in Antwerpen.

Not an issue at all given that there is no market for any high-speed train that
goes through Antwerp without calling at Antwerpen Centraal.

What is needed, now, is a rebuild of the Antwerpen-Berchem zone, in order
to avoid slowing down trains that do not stop there, and also because the
station itself badly needs it...

[QUOTE=Suburbanist;84936877Anyway, the Bruxelles-Antwerpen like is a critical case. They need a 270km/h line between two cities. In the Netherlands, they built HSL-Zuid between Schiphol and Rotterdam, a distance shorter than Antwerpen-Bruxelles. Then, they could run Amsterdam-Rotterdam-Bruxelles Midi trains that don't stop in Antwerpen, for instance, like they have Bruxelles Midi-Paris Nord trains that don't stop in Lille.[/QUOTE]

There is no market for trains Brussels-Amsterdam that do not call at
Antwerpen Centraal. And the area between Brussels and Antwerp is too
densely populated to build a high speed line without incurring insane
construction costs. You might think about using the central divide of the
E19 highway, like it has been done for the new L25N between Brussels
and Mechelen ; but unfortunately, this wide central divide does not
exists all the way up to Antwerpen, it ceases to exist somewhere in the
middle of the way.

^^ I don't like comparing things all the time, but the Dutch Randstad is very populated, yet they managed to build a Schiphol-Rotterdam brand new alignment crossing populated areas, environmentally sensitive areas etc.

^^ True, but it's a known fact that Belgium has never really followed the basic rules of urban planning. Instead of grouping things together properly, expansions were easy to make without any real master plans. So while the amount of the buildings in both areas is probably quite comparable, our lack of planning in the past (not that much has improved lately, but whatever...) makes it impossible to still find enough free space for such a line.

Also, I'm pretty certain there's no public support for such a line.

Greetings,
Glodenox

^^ I don't like comparing things all the time, but the Dutch Randstad is very populated, yet they managed to build a Schiphol-Rotterdam brand new alignment crossing populated areas, environmentally sensitive areas etc.

But the "heart" of the Randstad is rather empty. Nevertheless the High speed line should never have been build. They should have upgraded the existing line in stead. Delft could have had its tunnel by now if they had gone that route.

Not known yet. But I don't hold my breath. After the completion of the
L2 and the 4 tracks between Brussels and Leuven, the service improvements
have been minimal. Basically, one does not travel faster between Brussels
and Liège now than in the seventies. Speed improvements are used to build
more slack in the schedules, so that SNCB does not pay penalties for their
trains being late. Hell, even with that, they can't keep up with the schedules,
late running has never been so widespread as today.

That's what happens if you build first and then think about what you want to do with the infrastructure always...

They should take a page from the Swiss.
First comes organisation.
Then comes technology (particularly signalling)
And only after that comes concrete...
All the money invested in HSL in the Benelux countries could have bought 200kph for most intercity services...

^^ The priority here is not to bring 200 km/h for all intercity services, but to provide (in the case of Belgium) very fast links between Brussels and Liège, Frankfurt, Amsterdam, London and Paris.

Different priorities (for political and economic reasons), different approaches.

But the "heart" of the Randstad is rather empty. Nevertheless the High speed line should never have been build. They should have upgraded the existing line in stead. Delft could have had its tunnel by now if they had gone that route.

They said the same about HSL-3 (Bruxelles - Liège - Aachen) in the past.

The HSL-Zuid is more suitable for discussion on the Dutch thread, but the new route cut a significant distance of the old one. AFAIK, Hooffdorp-Rotterdam via HSL-Zuid is 47km via the new alignment (high-speed), whereas the old route via Leiden and Den Haag is 64km (with some sharp curves and excessive traffic between Leiden and Den Haag N.O.I., which means delays at the slightest problem)

I know that HSL-3 cut the Bruxelles - Liège distance in 13km comparing to the old line. So it's not only about higher speeds but shorter and increased distances as well. Get over it: Belgium is part of EU and it is not following the communist-style centrally planed and monopolistic integrated system of the Swiss. To allow competition (like Thalys and ICE trains serving the Bruxelles - Germany route), you need to have more capacity than if a tyrant railway management existed. But it brings choice and diversity of offers of service, which is a laudable goal in itself.

As long as you don't want to go anywhere else.

I know that HSL-3 cut the Bruxelles - Liège distance in 13km comparing to the old line. So it's not only about higher speeds but shorter and increased distances as well. Get over it: Belgium is part of EU and it is not following the communist-style centrally planed and monopolistic integrated system of the Swiss. To allow competition (like Thalys and ICE trains serving the Bruxelles - Germany route), you need to have more capacity than if a tyrant railway management existed. But it brings choice and diversity of offers of service, which is a laudable goal in itself.

The capacity problem has obvioulsy been solved, but the speed improvements
we are still waiting for... A new high speed line to obtain just the same
journey times than 40 years ago does not bear a very high level of social
return, to say the least. Specially considering that it has entirely been built
with public money. One might have expected more tangible returns from their
tax Euros at work... Mind you, it's not the decision to build the line that I'm
criticizing, but merely the total inability of our national operator to take
advantage of this new and expensive infrastructure to offer a better
service...

That's what happens if you build first and then think about what you want to do with the infrastructure always...

I don't believe it has anything to do with that. The decision to build that line
was a sensible one, and the way it was planned to use it is sensible too. But
in the mean time, the belgian operator started suffering from 4 major
problems:

- organizational problems caused by the split of the company in 4 separate
entities ;
- reliability problems with all new equipment which is failing way too often,
mainly because it is too complicated to maintain and operate ;
- security over-design and over-achievements which are hindering the
capacity to operate efficiently ;
- manpower problems caused by old bad decisions, like for example stopping
recruiting and training train drivers 20 years ago, the problem being now
that the training capacity can not even compensate for the natural attrition.

All of that ends up with a network which is totally mis-managed and thus
unable to follow their own schedules. For example trains are routinely late
(5 to 10 minutes) on a 30 minutes journey while this same journey was
accomplished in 25 minutes with no punctuality problems 30 years ago
in the same trafic density and conditions.

Any private company making the same management mistakes would go
bankrupt in almost no time...

But the "heart" of the Randstad is rather empty. Nevertheless the High speed line should never have been build. They should have upgraded the existing line in stead. Delft could have had its tunnel by now if they had gone that route.
High Speed Zuid is the only direct rail link between Rotterdam and Schiphol. That alone was worth all the expenses. Beyond that HS Zuid is a success even without suitable rolling stock as rising patronage proves.

First comes organisation.
Then comes technology (particularly signalling)
And only after that comes concrete...
A strategy which leads the Swiss railways straight into capacity shortages and overcrowded services.
The right way is to occupy areas first and fill it with technology later. Otherwise other developments take up crucial space and block later expansions.

All the money invested in HSL in the Benelux countries could have bought 200kph for most intercity services...
Not building HSL doesn't just mean no additional capacity. Upgrading existing lines even means less capacity as the speed spread widens.

^^ The priority here is not to bring 200 km/h for all intercity services, but to provide (in the case of Belgium) very fast links between Brussels and Liège, Frankfurt, Amsterdam, London and Paris.

So far the only line that has achieved this is the HSL to Paris. That is the only one that should have been built.
The HSL to Liège has not significantly sped up trip times on Brussel - Liège, so I would not call that money well spent.


Different priorities (for political and economic reasons), different approaches.
The first priority should be not to waste tax payers money on projects with low economic value.

Get over it: Belgium is part of EU and it is not following the communist-style centrally planed and monopolistic integrated system of the Swiss.

You know, you should stop using "communist" as an epithet. It doesn't signal intelligence...

A strategy which leads the Swiss railways straight into capacity shortages and overcrowded services.


When you see a queue in front of a restaurant what does that say to you?

Now think again what overcrowded trains actually signify... The Swiss railway is probably the most successfull railway in Europe.
(And don't overstate the overcrowding problem. I commuted Bern - Zürich daily for 2 1/2 years. Never had to stand. Only twice arrived with more than 5 minutes delay...)

- organizational problems caused by the split of the company in 4 separate
entities ;


I know that the split in infrastructure and operation is the favorite scapegoat at the moment. However I think that the main problems are that the fares (as paid by the passengers) are to low. Most of the revenue of the railway actually comes from the State, and so the company will concentrate on serving it's real customers: The politicians.

Now think again what overcrowded trains actually signify... The Swiss railway is probably the most successfull railway in Europe.
(And don't overstate the overcrowding problem. I commuted Bern - Zürich daily for 2 1/2 years. Never had to stand. Only twice arrived with more than 5 minutes delay...)
The SBB themself state that capacity is their biggest concern. And that shortage of capacity go down to the refusal to build new railway lines in anticipation of an increased demand.

Well, in Switzerland has a lot of new railway projects that are in the political pipeline that take forever to take shape. It's not that surprising that the SBB wants to stress the need for those extra lines. But the situation in Belgium can hardly be compared to Switzerland, and that discussion is better for the Swiss thread.


Back to the Antwerp-Brussel line, was it ever considered to extend the tunnel in Antwerp past Berchem? That could have meant a considerable time saving going in and out of Antwerp from the South. Plus it would be extra capacity at a place where it's actually most needed.

Back to the Antwerp-Brussel line, was it ever considered to extend the tunnel in Antwerp past Berchem? That could have meant a considerable time saving going in and out of Antwerp from the South. Plus it would be extra capacity at a place where it's actually most needed.

There were dozens of alternatives for the HSL lines in Belgium, there even was a proposal where the HSL's would only call at Brussels with a triangle near Herentals where the linesfrom (Paris-)Brussels, Germany and Holland would interchange.
This was early abandoned due to the lack of benefits for the domestic travel.

There also was once a proposal to have a line over the full length of the E19 motorway between Antwerp and Brussels, the endpoints were to be decided.

Also there was a plan to end the tunnel from Antwerp northbound behind the Albert canal, making the tunnel twice as long.

More than enough plans and proposals, but we're stuck with some bits and pieces where the big advantage for domestic travel are almost non-existant.

Back to the Antwerp-Brussel line, was it ever considered to extend the tunnel in Antwerp past Berchem? That could have meant a considerable time saving going in and out of Antwerp from the South. Plus it would be extra capacity at a place where it's actually most needed.
That would be hardly feasible due to the line coming from L59 (Ghent - Antwerp). That line goes underneath L25 and L27 a couple of meters before Antwerpen-Berchem. And if you want to have a tunnel underneath that one, you'd have to go underneath the R1 as well (and I don't see any space where any decline in a tunnel is possible there). While I don't think it's technically impossible, it would be *way* too expensive for the 20 seconds you'd gain by not having to slow down as much as they have to nowadays.

[...]
There also was once a proposal to have a line over the full length of the E19 motorway between Antwerp and Brussels, the endpoints were to be decided.
[...]
I don't think there ever were any official plans of that. In Antwerp, you'd require one hell of a tunnel in order to reach Antwerp Central Station to reach a high speed line from there. But at least we will soon have a line from Brussels to Mechelen in the median of the E19.

Greetings,
Glodenox

The SBB themself state that capacity is their biggest concern. And that shortage of capacity go down to the refusal to build new railway lines in anticipation of an increased demand.

My point is that the reason they need more capacity is that they are successfull. So you can't point at capacity problems as a sign of a railway underperforming...

The Desiro ML trains are almost ready to enter service. NMBS/SNCB has ordered 305 of these.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3587/5737296738_229873cb56_b.jpg
http://www.flickr.com/photos/35507270@N05/5737296738/

How is their introduction going?

^^ Will these new trains replace the pure pieces of crap of the 1970s currently operating the Liége-Guillemins - Maastricht services?

^^ They will eventually replace them all, and the current sets aren't all from the 1970's, lots of them are even older :ohno:

Last thing I heard is that the first sets are being put into service before next summer :)

^^ Will these new trains replace the pure pieces of crap of the 1970s currently operating the Liége-Guillemins - Maastricht services?

Actually those 1970-ies trainsets are some of the most reliably trainsets NMBS has. Hopefully the Desiro ML sets are as reliable.

Actually those 1970-ies trainsets are some of the most reliably trainsets NMBS has. Hopefully the Desiro ML sets are as reliable.

Reliability is not the only thing that counts! Sure an old, crappy train without much embedded electronic systems can operate longer on deferred maintenance (a loved accounting tactic to boost financial statements).

They don't offer modern, basic comforts like doors that open with the touch of a button (not requiring manipulation of a handlers, which is harder on people who are frail or have mobility restrictions on their hands), they are poorly insulated, they don't have airco or even forced ventilation, and lets not start talking of bathrooms, electronic advisory displays etc. etc.

Trainsets should be withdrawn from service after 30 years of service, period. They would be then built in a more "disposable" fashion, meant to last shorter, and become cheaper to buy. Like road vehicles in general.

Reliability is not the only thing that counts! Sure an old, crappy train without much embedded electronic systems can operate longer on deferred maintenance (a loved accounting tactic to boost financial statements).

They don't offer modern, basic comforts like doors that open with the touch of a button (not requiring manipulation of a handlers, which is harder on people who are frail or have mobility restrictions on their hands), they are poorly insulated, they don't have airco or even forced ventilation, and lets not start talking of bathrooms, electronic advisory displays etc. etc.

Proper maintenance and a periodic refresh can do wonders here. It all depends on how competent the railway is. There are SBB trainsets that at 40 years of age look better, and more modern than 15 yo Trenitalia trains...


Trainsets should be withdrawn from service after 30 years of service, period. They would be then built in a more "disposable" fashion, meant to last shorter, and become cheaper to buy. Like road vehicles in general.

Again you show how fortunate the world is that you're not involved in railway operation.

Trainsets should be withdrawn from service after 30 years of service, period. They would be then built in a more "disposable" fashion, meant to last shorter, and become cheaper to buy. Like road vehicles in general.

What is the age that an airplane has to be pulled out of service?
There is no such thing, and it would be a waste of capital if you would demolish a perfectly working trainset, just because of the age.

A train should be set aside if the cost of the maintenance (or the upgrades to meet the current standards) is higher than the cost of buying a new one. Simple as that.

This implies also that badly designed trainsets can be scrapped well before 30 years of age.

How is their introduction going?

The first ones should enter revenue services sometimes in March.
Drivers training just started. Full homologation has not been granted
yet but enough to start services on a few selected lines.

The line Liege-Maastrich will certainly not be the first one served.
The relationship between SNCB and NS about the service on this line
is certainly not as good as it should be, and before new rolling stock
is introduced, this problem must be addressed first.

Also, in addition to the aspects that Suburbanist mentioned, those new
trainsets are vastly superior in terms of acceleration and maximum speed.
So they will be introduced first where those new performances are the
most demanded, i.e. on the very congested lines that serve Brussels
(Nivelles-Bruxelles-Antwerp to begin with).

They might also be used on the Athus-Meuse ligne (rural line between Dinant
and Arlon in the Ardennes) in order to free up diesel sets that are needed
elsewhere.

This is the first time since very long that SNCB introduces a new rolling
stock entirely dedicated to local trains. For the 40 previous years, local
trains were produced with equipment downgraded from intercity service...

^^ Will these new trains replace the pure pieces of crap of the 1970s currently operating the Liége-Guillemins - Maastricht services?

See my previous reply. Those new sets will replace the 120 EMUs of the
1962 class, those that are still in red livery and are numbered between
151 and 270. The other double EMUs are being refurbished (external paint,
new seats, ventilation, new restrooms, digital displays, new driver's post...)
and will last another 10 years before they are retired. This refurbishment
program is almost complete.

Actually those 1970-ies trainsets are some of the most reliably trainsets NMBS has. Hopefully the Desiro ML sets are as reliable.

They are from 1962.

This makes me wonder whether the trainsets and locomotives currently built
are not simply too complex and too sophisticated, resulting in an over-
sensitivity to the environmental conditions (temperature, humidity, presence
of snow, variation of the catenary voltage, ice on the contact wires,
electromagnetical interference, etc). Trains of the past were completely
immune from those perturbations. Today, it is definitely not the case
anymore. Each hot summer or harsh winter brings us cases of trains stranded
anywhere in the field with hundreds of passengers on board. This is not what
I call progress. A train that can only be used in mild temperatures and with a
perfect power supply is worth nothing.

This is the first time since very long that SNCB introduces a new rolling
stock entirely dedicated to local trains. For the 40 previous years, local
trains were produced with equipment downgraded from intercity service...

Not that in Belgium there is much of a difference. :lol:

Trains of the past were completely
immune from those perturbations. Today, it is definitely not the case
anymore. Each hot summer or harsh winter brings us cases of trains stranded
anywhere in the field with hundreds of passengers on board. This is not what
I call progress. A train that can only be used in mild temperatures and with a
perfect power supply is worth nothing.

Part of it has to do with the massive amount of electronics we have in trains, which has made them much safer, however a bit sensitive.

A major change, however, has to do with design philosophy. Once, trains (and cars, and house appliances) were "overbuilt" with excessive use of materials and made too durable for their expected lifetime. But it was a time of cheap raw material and cheap industrial costs, so that had less of an impact.

Nowadays, the buyer can specify the operational conditions of a train. You can insulate electronics properly so that trains will operate at -20 or below, under heavy snow and frost conditions, but that will cost more than fitting them to optimal conditions (without performance degradation) only down to -12 and not suitable to heavy frost or powder snow.

It is always a purchase decision.

Liège-Guillemins Railway Station:

http://users.telenet.be/bulevardi/fotos/liege/002.jpg

most beautiful station, evah

First V250 of the NMBS/SNCB

http://www.open.ou.nl/hon/NMBS4881%20stopp%20in%20Essen.jpg

First V250 of the NMBS/SNCB

http://www.open.ou.nl/hon/NMBS4881%20stopp%20in%20Essen.jpg

My condolences.

My condolences.

Why is that? The V250s are finally arriving :) And that will put the Benelux train to rest for good, that shameful train running on Dutch tracks (only the aberration called IC Liège-Maastricht is worse than the Benelux trains). So we'll have cool stuff from the Belgians running here now :)

Let's hope the train operates normally and sooner rather than later.

Why is that? The V250s are finally arriving :) And that will put the Benelux train to rest for good, that shameful train running on Dutch tracks (only the aberration called IC Liège-Maastricht is worse than the Benelux trains).

When the current Benelux started in the 80ies it used stock that was more comfortable than anything the NMBS had in operation. For Dutch IC standards it was normal though. After the refresh of the interiors there was nothing wrong with the trains, and they could have kept on running for some years still.
In fact, the only thing that was "wrong" with it was that it couldn't run on the HSL. Basically NS/NMBS should just have ordered a few extra of NMBS series 18, and 200 kph capable coaches, and used that to start a new Benelux service, integrated in the IC networks of both countries just like the current is.

^^ The Benelux coaches have the following problems:

- precarious connections between cars
- insufficient thermal weather control (arico) for summer days
- toilets that flush onto the tracks
- poor noise insulation, which would make the ride at 250km/h in the long tunnels in NL and the "semi-tunnel" in BE noisy as a city tram
- bad seats, lacking modern innovation
- no wi-fi, no power outlets, even in 1st class AFAIK

I can't really vouch for the noise insulation quality being poor. While there is indeed a lot of noise when you're in the corridors, the actual seating area is quite silent in my opinion. The carriages themselves generate a whole lot of noise though from the outside. I can hear at home (about 3 kilometers away from the track) whenever there's a Benelux train passing by (and we get all kinds of trains on that track, so I can compare very easily). In general, I fully agree with you though: it's about time that those carriages get replaced.

^^ The Benelux coaches have the following problems:

- precarious connections between cars

They have the standard gangways. I see nothing "precarious" there. However the newer gangways as used on ICE and Railjet trains are an improvement, that is true.

- insufficient thermal weather control (arico) for summer days

Compared to most currently running stock they do perform allright

- toilets that flush onto the tracks
- poor noise insulation, which would make the ride at 250km/h in the long tunnels in NL and the "semi-tunnel" in BE noisy as a city tram

Both these items fall under "can't run on the HSL" as I mentioned.
However, retrofitting toilets with holding tanks is not a problem, and is actually being done.


- bad seats, lacking modern innovation
- no wi-fi, no power outlets, even in 1st class AFAIK

The seats are actually better than in Thalys. More legroom for starters.

But my proposal for the replacement Benelux would have been to just kpee it integrated in the NS/NMBS IC network, and use 200kph locomotives and carriages, of which NMBS has quite a few, and which can easily be bought if more are needed.

^^ NS already "degraded" the paths north and south of Rotterdam on the old line. Unless they run over HSL Zuid+HSL 4, they'd not pose a travel time gain.

Now if SNCB wants to keep the cars operating within Belgium, that is fine.

^^ NS already "degraded" the paths north and south of Rotterdam on the old line. Unless they run over HSL Zuid+HSL 4, they'd not pose a travel time gain.


Which is why I keep repeating that anything that replaces the Benelux must travel over the HSL. Are you paying attention?
NMBS series 18, plus Siemens Viaggio coaches (as used in the railjet) would, in hindsight, been a far better choice than the Ansaldo - Breda V250 sets.


Now if SNCB wants to keep the cars operating within Belgium, that is fine.

The benelux coaches are owned by NS, and yes, NS will run them on domestic services once they're no longer needed.

Why is that? The V250s are finally arriving :) And that will put the Benelux train to rest for good, that shameful train running on Dutch tracks (only the aberration called IC Liège-Maastricht is worse than the Benelux trains). So we'll have cool stuff from the Belgians running here now :)

Let's hope the train operates normally and sooner rather than later.

I offered my condolences because it has turned out to be a very ugly train and a horribly constructed piece of scrap.

There is no way it can start operating "sooner", because it is already way overdue :cheers:

I offered my condolences because it has turned out to be a very ugly train and a horribly constructed piece of scrap.


And the remembrance of sweet prices will long be forgotten while we will,
every day, have to endure as a pain in the ass its substandard (to say the
least) quality. Anything else would have been better than this monstruosity.

Anything else would have been better than this monstruosity.

Anything else would have costed more. Ansaldo Breda undercut the price per train more than 24% compared to Bombardier, which was trying to shift some Zefiros to HSA at the time of the tender.

Anything else would have costed more. Ansaldo Breda undercut the price per train more than 24% compared to Bombardier, which was trying to shift some Zefiros to HSA at the time of the tender.

Sure. But how much of that have we already lost in delays - remember that those trains should have entered service years ago already - and in tests,
and how much will we still lose in dealing with all the problems caused by the
low quality ? I pretend that it will be way above the 24% of savings on the
purchase price ! And we can't even reclaim some of this money in fines
because it would cause AnsaldoBreda to go bankrupt.

Sure. But how much of that have we already lost in delays - remember that those trains should have entered service years ago already - and in tests,
and how much will we still lose in dealing with all the problems caused by the
low quality ? I pretend that it will be way above the 24% of savings on the
purchase price ! And we can't even reclaim some of this money in fines
because it would cause AnsaldoBreda to go bankrupt.

And I wonder what it would have cost if they just had ordered a 200kph (or 249 kph) conventional train.
NMBS already had material suitable for this. Ordering some more I11 coaches (or cascading them from other services as more M6 becomes available) would have been one option.
Another option would have been to just order new VIRM sets in a a 200kph multi standard version. The main mistake was to at all cost want to rebrand the Benelux in to something special.
The HSL should be (and actually will be) integrated in the domestic IC network in the Netherlands, but also in Belgium.

^^ Between Rotterdam and Hooffdorp the speed gain of a HST over a high-performance 200km/h train is 170 seconds, roughly. But between R'dam Lombadijen and Antwerpen it means full extra 6 minutes.

Moreover, the Fyra trains have superior, far more superior interior design and amenities (like any other train that got the tender would have). Interior noise insulation and vibration dissipation design are much higher than "normal" locomotive-pull trains. They have wi-fi and other stuff as well.

Without such superior train, the prospect of paying extremely high access fees to HSA would be non-existent which in turn means HSA wouldn't have been able to bid 4x above the minimum to get hold of HSL Zuid first place.

^^ Between Rotterdam and Hooffdorp the speed gain of a HST over a high-performance 200km/h train is 170 seconds, roughly. But between R'dam Lombadijen and Antwerpen it means full extra 6 minutes.

On R'dam Antwerp these extra 6 minutes compared to a Thalys are not really an issue. There is a huge market for something a little slower and a lot cheaper than Thalys. I suspect that quite a bit of the Belgium - Netherlands market will shift to the Local service to Roosendaal if Fyra really tries to run its service like a ground level airline.


Moreover, the Fyra trains have superior, far more superior interior design and amenities (like any other train that got the tender would have). Interior noise insulation and vibration dissipation design are much higher than "normal" locomotive-pull trains. They have wi-fi and other stuff as well.

At the moment some of those trains don't even have an interior at all. And there is no reason why a conventional trains can't have those ameneties as well. And locomotive pulled trains have lower noice and vibration levels than trainsets anyway.


Without such superior train, the prospect of paying extremely high access fees to HSA would be non-existent which in turn means HSA wouldn't have been able to bid 4x above the minimum to get hold of HSL Zuid first place.

HSA is gone (or going) anyway, proving that the business case for the HSL was as thin as the oppononts claimed a decaded ago. Even with superior trains...
The HSL Zuid is now going to be integrated in the Dutch domestic network. In a rational world the HSL Zuid wouldn't even have been build.

^^ HSL will accommodate other trains, but they will have to be retrofitted. And the speed differential between trains using HSL at 160 and 250 (28/day when all Fyra trains will be operating + Thalys) reduces the total capacity of the line. Fortunately, capacity is not an issue at HSL Zuid - for now.

But you were the one whining that the Köln-Liège HSL was useless one year ago. Just because you couldn't get your connection.

^^ HSL will accommodate other trains, but they will have to be retrofitted. And the speed differential between trains using HSL at 160 and 250 (28/day when all Fyra trains will be operating + Thalys) reduces the total capacity of the line. Fortunately, capacity is not an issue at HSL Zuid - for now.[quote]
I'm not talking about running 160 kph trains. I'm talking about 200 kph. You can still run quite a few trains over the HSL even if most of them are limited to 200 kph.
[quote]But you were the one whining that the Köln-Liège HSL was useless one year ago. Just because you couldn't get your connection.

Yep. I maintain that a well integrated network is of more value to the customer than one where the aim seems to be primarily to dazzle the likes of Suburbanist.

^^ I have never used the Turin-Milan HSL exactly because of the lack of connecting trains. I would have used the HST a dozen of times paying 20 € more each time, but I had to take the interregional trains because if I had used the HST the trip would have lasted one or two hours more. So it's completely in the interests of railway companies to assure connections.

And now, they are already some Desiro trains in service. Hopefully they are a big success.

And now, they are already some Desiro trains in service. Hopefully they are a big success.

Yeah, but still in "test" mode, although with passengers. Only 5 sets have
a temporary certificate that allows them to operate commercially. Hopefully
the whole series will receive the final certificate for the June schedule
change. But this is still not guaranteed. They took how long to certify the
HLE 18 ? 3 years ?

You can see them for now on 2 local services : Charleroi-Erquelinnes and
Aalst-Braine l'Alleud. Only a few journeys per day or week.

Pictures on http://www.wallorail.be/actu/0112/26.htm

The benelux coaches are owned by NS, and yes, NS will run them on domestic services once they're no longer needed.My guess is that those coaches will be sent to the shredder immediately once they return from their HSA duties - if they ever will in the first place.

The coaches are starting to fall apart: every rake has at least one broken door on either side, there are lots of minor interior defects such as inner doors that don't close automatically anymore, and the heavy vibrations the sets have to endure with each run can't be good for the structural integrity as well.

Other than that: it's currently estimated that the ICRm coaches will retire around 2020. This means that if HSA would return their ICRm coaches at the end of the year, it'd only be 7 years until they'd be retired anyway.

However, since NS Reizigers has different standards for their rolling stock, the coaches will need to be modified. A new paint job, a completely redone interior, changes to the technical components, et cetera. This will be a rather costly undertaking, and NS is not exactly known for wasting money.

On the other hand, it may very well be that the Prio coaches will spend the rest of their lives on the HSL. Given the new connections that NSR wants to offer starting from 2015, the V250 fleet might not be enough, and I doubt that VIRM will be retrofitted. The ICRm Prio coaches will come in handy then for some of the services that only partially use the HSL (such as The Hague - Eindhoven over HSL-South).

The Desiro trains finally entered service

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5340/6904976422_1b60fd18f8_b.jpg
http://www.flickr.com/photos/trainspotterstef/6904976422/in/set-72157629383152462

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5315/6904977020_d850d6b760_b.jpg
http://www.flickr.com/photos/trainspotterstef/6904977020/in/set-72157629383152462

Any more news as to when Fyra (V250) trains will run to Brussels?

Any more news as to when Fyra (V250) trains will run to Brussels?

Officially announced now for Sunday, December 9th.
It will apparently take more or less the same time as the Thalys,
i.e. one hour less than the existing IC service.
But as it will serve only Rotterdam, Schiphol and Amsterdam,
it means that direct services with Dordrecht and Den Haag, and
to a lesser extent Roosendaal, will be lost.

Will the existing rolling stock be reused by NS-Reizigers in domestic
service ?

In Belgium, the 28xx locs made free will return to the freight service,
and that will be the final push on the exclusion of the old but iconic 20xx locs.

Officially announced now for Sunday, December 9th.
It will apparently take more or less the same time as the Thalys,
i.e. one hour less than the existing IC service.
But as it will serve only Rotterdam, Schiphol and Amsterdam,
it means that direct services with Dordrecht and Den Haag, and
to a lesser extent Roosendaal, will be lost.

It is a huge improvement, one that might jeopardize the flights (7/day) between Schiphol and Zaventem.

Roosendaal will still be accessible via regional trains from Antwerpen. On the other hand, Roosendaal will get, I think, another national train service up north running 16x/day

Den Haag will still be reachable faster with a transfer in Rotterdam Centraal as there are huge time savings on the Antwerpen-Rotterdam sector.

I think they have or had projects for some Fyra services starting in Den Haag Centraal and calling at Rotterdam, Breda and Antwerpen, and arriving in Bruxelles Midi.

It is a huge improvement, one that might jeopardize the flights (7/day) between Schiphol and Zaventem.
As Fyra International will not call at Zaventem Airport, travellers will need to change with all their luggage at Antwerpen Centraal.

Brussels National Airport ("Zaventem") does not play a key role as Schiphol does when it comes to being a rail hub. The airport is important for Belgium, but it's of little importance to rail passengers.

It is a huge improvement...

This is what I'm not really sure about... Last month, I took
a two weeks break to work in the house with my wife, and
as we finished 3 days in advance, we decided to conclude
our break with a citytrip. A brief look at the weather forecast,
and we decided for amsterdam. 3 hours after, I had in my
pocket the tickets to Amsterdam, a booking for 2 nights in
a nice hotel, and tickets to a painting exhibition in the
Hermitage museum. Will I still have the same flexibility, and
the same prices (34 € one way) once the train will be a
limited with yield management pricing ?

This is what I'm not really sure about... Last month, I took
a two weeks break to work in the house with my wife, and
as we finished 3 days in advance, we decided to conclude
our break with a citytrip. A brief look at the weather forecast,
and we decided for amsterdam. 3 hours after, I had in my
pocket the tickets to Amsterdam, a booking for 2 nights in
a nice hotel, and tickets to a painting exhibition in the
Hermitage museum. Will I still have the same flexibility, and
the same prices (34 € one way) once the train will be a
limited with yield management pricing ?

As in any transportation service with yield management, some people win, some people lose, the median price goes surely down and sometimes the average price as well.

The case you described ("I woke up and just decided to travel from Charleroi to Enkhuizen leaving next hour") is probably a case of someone who'd pay substantially more for its "on-the-spur-of-the-moment" trip. But many people will be benefited with lower fares if they can plan in advance.

Today, Thalys already offer advanced fares that are cheaper than Benelux fares, but they do sell out quickly with 3-5 weeks in advance. When the Benelux train is retired and Fyra comes live, there will be more competition as all trains will require seat reservations, even if made 5 min before the train leaves in a ticket machine.

Then, people like students travelling on holidays/weekends, tourists from far away (that took a flight to Europe), people who commute couple times a week on the route etc., day-trippers going for a concert with known date couple weeks in advance, relatives going to family functions will all benefit from lower prices. Business travelers, people who "must" travel on short notice etc. will pay more. Seems appropriate for me.

This is what I'm not really sure about... Last month, I took
a two weeks break to work in the house with my wife, and
as we finished 3 days in advance, we decided to conclude
our break with a citytrip. A brief look at the weather forecast,
and we decided for amsterdam. 3 hours after, I had in my
pocket the tickets to Amsterdam, a booking for 2 nights in
a nice hotel, and tickets to a painting exhibition in the
Hermitage museum. Will I still have the same flexibility, and
the same prices (34 € one way) once the train will be a
limited with yield management pricing ?

Well, you're not entitled to everything staying the same. In the future you will have three options:

- More expensive then now, but at higher speed and quality.
- the same at a lower price if you book in advance, with prices possibly being a lot lower then they are at the moment.
- with a change in Roosendaal at the current TCV tariff.

Given that that the first two options amongst others guarantee a seat, something that is a huge improvement over the current service I would always go for that...
I do a lot of spur of the moment train travel, but on international trains I always reserve seats. And if you have had the foresight to reserve you do get quite annoyed if your train incurs a long delay because of standing passengers without reservation.

What I however do expect of Fyra is that they make it easy for people with flexible tickets to change their reservation. For example just sending an SMS should be enough. And they could maybe even add an "unreserved car" like is common in Japan.

- with a change in Roosendaal at the current TCV tariff.

At least we still have that indeed. That's not the case everywhere. I have
already tried to do it for Brussels-Paris, for example, and it is still feasable,
but only for very seasoned train travellers, and requires much more time.
Even with the change at Roosendaal, this still remains a hourly service
seven days a week...

And they could maybe even add an "unreserved car" like is common in Japan.
That would be the best of both worlds. But I fear it won't happen, because
when that car will get full, standing passengers will then invade all other
cars on the train. Seeing the current load on those trains, I bet this would
happen far too often. And passengers in reserved cars certainly won't
appreciate too much.

In the 80's, Belgium had a huge expansion of the electric lines, and came out with the Class 11 locos.

What did Belgium use for electric locos before then? I realize EMU's date back to the thirties, but were there any actual electric locomotives (pulling coaches, freight, etc.) prior to the Class 11's?

They actually had several classes before the class 11, 12, 21 & 27 that were introduced in the early 1980s.

class: year, total produced:
Class 28: 1949, 3
Class 29: 1949, 20
Class 22: 1953, 50
Class 23: 1955, 83
Class 25: 1960, 22
Class 15: 1962, 5
Class 26: 1964, 35
Class 16: 1966, 8
Class 18: 1973, 6
Class 20: 1975, 25
(Some of the numbers are now being reused by new locomotives.)

The locomotives in the class 1* where mostly used for international passenger trains since these are all multisystem locomotives. The the class 2* where used for both domestic passenger trains and freight trains.

Class 29
http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6012/5922227087_53e2a794cf_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/railmedia/5922227087/)
Rangeringen met locs 2913, 2551 en TSP 6077 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/railmedia/5922227087/) by John Liekens (http://www.flickr.com/people/railmedia/), on Flickr

Class 23
http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4089/4992330149_43386b7363_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/railmedia/4992330149/)
2341 en 2326 en een korte unit cargo (http://www.flickr.com/photos/railmedia/4992330149/) by John Liekens (http://www.flickr.com/people/railmedia/), on Flickr

Class 20
http://farm2.staticflickr.com/1301/4709557365_e85eb1e571_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/railmedia/4709557365/)
2013 met een gemengde goederentrein (http://www.flickr.com/photos/railmedia/4709557365/) by John Liekens (http://www.flickr.com/people/railmedia/), on Flickr

In the 80's, Belgium had a huge expansion of the electric lines, and came out with the Class 11 locos.

What did Belgium use for electric locos before then? I realize EMU's date back to the thirties, but were there any actual electric locomotives (pulling coaches, freight, etc.) prior to the Class 11's?

I suppose you question was : what kind of electric locos were used to pull
the Brussels-Amsterdam before the HLE 11 came in place ?

That was HLE 25.5, dual voltage 1500/3000 DC. They pulled a consist made
of 2 SNCB cars and 4 NS cars, one of them equipped with a driver's cabin.

Some pictures on http://www.flickr.com/groups/1742657@N25/ and a picture
of the whole consist at http://www.google.be/imgres?imgurl=http://www.treinfoto2000.be/april2008/2556%2520duwt%2520de%2520oude%2520Benelux%2520trein%2520door%2520Lage%2520Zwaluwe.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.treinfoto2000.be/april2008/photodujour.htm&h=534&w=800&sz=133&tbnid=8KOat6FN4ScrfM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=135&prev=/search%3Fq%3Db%25C3%25A9n%25C3%25A9luxtrein%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=b%C3%A9n%C3%A9luxtrein&usg=__e4mjjNNFLIif-k_ApOjb3i9DLdk=&docid=XMXc_TgECNGx7M&hl=fr&sa=X&ei=zDp4UO7WBc_OswaTj4DIDA&ved=0CDgQ9QEwAg&dur=0

Thanks! That helps a lot. From what I gather, Brussels to Amsterdam wwas not fuly electrified until after WWII?

I seem to remember some Brussels commuter lines being electrified, but i would imagine those lines had EMU's and not locomotives and unpowered cars? (Of course, an EMU could pull an unpowered trailer.)

Another question - Märklin 4397 cars - http://www.collector-modeltrains.com/dash/universe/catalog_item/MT-0841889/
When were they used ? What was used to pull them? How long were the trains?

Thanks! That helps a lot. From what I gather, Brussels to Amsterdam wwas not fuly electrified until after WWII?

Now, electric service on that line only started in the 60ies. Until then the international trains were diesel hauled. That is what it looked like:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/maartenschoubben/5032637619/


I seem to remember some Brussels commuter lines being electrified, but i would imagine those lines had EMU's and not locomotives and unpowered cars? (Of course, an EMU could pull an unpowered trailer.)

Before the war only Brussel - Antwerpen and Brussel Tervuren (the latter later nationalised and promptly closed in the 50ies) were electric.
They both used EMUs. EMUs were never used to pull unpowerd trailers in Belgium AFAIK.

The last non electrified gap on the Brussel - Amsterdam route was closed in 1957 when the line between Antwerp and Roosendaal in the Netherlands was electrified. This was also the year the Beneluxtrain started operation. These where operated by EMUs that were based on the Dutch class Mat '54 that where owned by the NS and the NMBS/SNCB. From 1974 push-pull trains where also used with the Belgian class 25.5 locomotives and a mix of Belgian and Dutch carriages. For the other international trains the electrical age only started in the 1960s when class 15 was used for the TEE trains between Paris and Amsterdam.

electrification time line:
Amsterdam - Rotterdam: 1927
Rotterdam - Dordrecht: 1934
Antwerp - Brussel: 1935
Dordrecht - Roosendaal: 1950
Roosendaal - Antwerp: 1957



The Märklin 4397 cars are originally German cars, either they came to Belgium as WW1 reparations or they were stranded in Belgium after WW2 and used by the Belgium railways. I can't find any info on where they were used, so I don't think that there where many of these cars in Belgium. They might have been used on regional lines with a steam or diesel locomotive.

Thanks for all the updates. It is interesting that Amsterdam-Rotterdam was electrified before Brussels-Antwerp.

Does Tervuren have a good commuter rail connection to downtown Brussels? Or does "everybody" take the 44 Tram? Or do Tervuren commuters work elsewhere (like around the airport?) Why wasn't Tervuren included in the planned RER (GEN) system?

Here's a hot topic. With the new mayor of Antwerp advocating a split Belgium, what would a split Belgium mean for SNCB ? Especially rail service in Wallonia?

Does Tervuren have a good commuter rail connection to downtown Brussels? Or does "everybody" take the 44 Tram? Or do Tervuren commuters work elsewhere (like around the airport?) Why wasn't Tervuren included in the planned RER (GEN) system?

Commuters from Tervuren mostly take the car (like most commuters) and spend lots of time at a snails pace (like most commuters).
The line to Tervuren was closed once it was nationalised, part of it has been reused for tram 39 (the Tulpen - Ban Eik section if you want to look it up on the map). On arial pictures (like on google maps) you can still make out most of the rest of the route. It's really a shame it was closed. It would have been a good addition to the Metro network.
The FLemish Government has some plans for now light rail services around Brussel, and these might come to Tervuren too.


Here's a hot topic. With the new mayor of Antwerp advocating a split Belgium, what would a split Belgium mean for SNCB ? Especially rail service in Wallonia?
What it would mean for Wallonia would be up to the Walloons. For Flanders it would probably mean that regional rail finally gets integrated with busses and trams, as it should, and that idiotic situations, like suburban railway lines that only run once ever hour, and not at all on weekends finally disappear.

I've just returned from a long weekend in Belgium. We've moved around with a train quite a lot and I have to say that the system is a big step down compared with the one in Switzerland or Germany (almost every train was late!)... Antwerp central station, however, is a bright spot - one of the best looking train stations I've been to.

^^raillines in Belgium have severe bottlenecks in bigger cities. This means if one train runs late for 30min, the whole scedule get f**ked up.

Ring Ring....telephone crossing eh?

bNNoEHYokwY

^^ It was defective. Some object interfering with the signaling.

This is how Belgian level crossings normally sound like

zeMTCLwq6so

http://www.industryleadersmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/port-of-antwerp-e1305183421523.jpg

Where exactly in Antwerp is this swing bridge? (left side of picture)

http://www.industryleadersmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/port-of-antwerp-e1305183421523.jpg

Where exactly in Antwerp is this swing bridge? (left side of picture)

That's the Nassaubrug, between Bonapartedok and Willemdok. The building site is for the MAS (Museum aan de Stroom) which is quite worth a visit if you're ever in Antwerpen.

^^

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4114/4860214475_40d24f5cb5_b.jpg

Thanks!! A must see museum! You guys are great!

I have visited the MAS last summer. It is a really great building with exceptional views. I found the museum not very interesting though. Quite traditional, dark, not a great collection. But the MAS itself is beautiful.

I have visited the MAS last summer. It is a really great building with exceptional views. I found the museum not very interesting though. Quite traditional, dark, not a great collection. But the MAS itself is beautiful.

I found it a bit interesting, but I didn't pay so didn't feel it owed me anything. Too many pieces with no context. The view on the top was nice though.

Does anyone remember an unusual signal at the platform at Liege-Guillemins? It was a signal telling the lead engineer that the pusher (needed to get up the hill headed towards Brussels) was coupled up and ready.

Not the daisy (Marguerite), but a red neon letters sign.

Does anyone remember an unusual signal at the platform at Liege-Guillemins? It was a signal telling the lead engineer that the pusher (needed to get up the hill headed towards Brussels) was coupled up and ready.

Not the daisy (Marguerite), but a red neon letters sign.

There is a signal with 3 letters (ALL) which is lit while the pusher engine is against the train (this pusher is NOT coupled) ;)

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/be/signalling/ALLk.jpg

Thanks!

That was the situation in the old Guillemins configuration.

Nowadays, there are only 3 tracks in the station where the departure can be done with this light system.

This system is a help for us as we're starting the train BUT a departure with a pusher engine behind can also be done on the other tracks even if the light system is not available.

But I won't make you the full sum up of the SNCB driver's rules regarding "les plans inclinés", that'll be damn long ;)

Proper term for a pusher is banker.