Just for interests sake, Id like to know american views on South African cities.
1. Did you know that Johannesburg is the largest city in the world not on/next to a water source, like an ocean/river?
2. Cape Town is the most european of African cities?
3. whether wild animals roam our city streets like elephants do in Bangkok?
4. more plant species in Cape Town city alone, than in all of the british Islands?
5. The biggest shopping complexes in the southern hemisphere are found in Cape Town and Johannesburg?
6. South Africa has more roads and raillines than all African countries combined?
7. Durban has the biggest and busiest port in the southern hemisphere?
8. South Africa will play host to the Soccer World Cup in 2010?

Most Americans are able to discern the difference between a war-torn, rural tribal population in a place such as Rwanda, and South Africa, which is a developed country.

When I think of South Africa, the most prevailing ideas I get about the country is the huge problem with AIDS, the feud between English-speakers and Afrikaners, the widening gap between rich and poor much like in the US, and of course, the ending of the apartheid.

one of the few nations in Africa I wouldnt mind living in.

i'm going to South Africa june 9-june 26...so far from what i've seen, through pictures, its pretty amazing in some places and pretty bad in some places.

So far the statements made here are spot on. The reason for this thread being that there's a perception-not only in America, but Europe as well- that there's no distinction to be made between South Africa & the rest of Africa, that SA is like Zimbabwe, like Nigeria, like the Congo, like Chad.... Its interesting to know what people actually know of and think about SA.
Well, SA is not quiet developed yet. With the economic boom and ever increasing economic growth (now at about 4%) currently taking place, we hope to reach that status within the next 10-15 years. There is indeed a great gap between rural SA (3rd world in almost every sense of the word), and highly sofisticated world cities and infrastructure. And yes, aids is a big problem, more so in rural SA.

The first thing I think of when I hear "South Africa" is Thabo Mbeki's skepticism that HIV and AIDS are linked, and then I think "Goddamn thats ridiculous!"

Then again, look who runs the show over here; the guy can't even pronounce "nuclear" correctly.

So far the statements made here are spot on. The reason for this thread being that there's a perception-not only in America, but Europe as well- that there's no distinction to be made between South Africa & the rest of Africa, that SA is like Zimbabwe, like Nigeria, like the Congo, like Chad.


Typically, the people who act like this from the US that you would find on the internet are one of three types.... Children who don't know any better... ignorant shut-ins who choose not to know any better... and the arrogant nationalist type, who even though they do know of a another nation's traits, still bash basically every other country on Earth, because no country can be as 'free' or 'great' or 'God blessed' as red Amurrikkka is.

SA has some awesome looking cities, and I'm glad to see it developing quickly. Hope to go soon. I didn't realize Johannesburg was so big (more than five million)! Bangkok, btw, doesn't have elephants on the streets either.

I think most knowleagable Americans have at least a mental picture of Jo-burg as this city of skyscrapers, and Cape Town as something similar, but of course with the spectacultar scenery of Table Bay and Table Mountain in the picture somewhere...

...I think its the other SA cities where we draw a blank...places like Durban, Port Elizabeth, Blomfontein (which is probably not that big?)....and so forth....

Typically, the people who act like this from the US that you would find on the internet are one of three types.... Children who don't know any better... ignorant shut-ins who choose not to know any better... and the arrogant nationalist type, who even though they do know of a another nation's traits, still bash basically every other country on Earth, because no country can be as 'free' or 'great' or 'God blessed' as red Amurrikkka is.

He said (to paraphrase) "theres a perception that SA and Africa are the same"

Now you dont think it might just be because there is so little information about South Africa out there for broad consumption? This perception is supposed to be somehow tied to kids, shut-ins, and those evil people who live in and are proud of America?



Why are nationalists always associated with the right anyways? Nazis were both nationalists and socialists.

I've seen pics and heard things about South Africa that I like. There cities are so advanced and are of world class material. Is it a place I'd like to visit?, sure. Its not going to be like Rawanda in my mind. I think of South Africa being very advanced for a continent that has seen a big backward trend...cough cough AIDS...

I admit to not knowing alot about South Africa, but I wouldn't say I'm ignorant of it by any means. I would love to learn more about it and hopefully visit. I plan on moving to Australia in about a year, so maybe when I get down there I can visit.

One of my favorite musicians is from South Africa, Dave Matthews... I've always wondered how popular he is over there, maybe you could answer that question harkerb? :)

Well I plan to move to South Africa in 2009, so that makes my stance pretty obvious. :) I believe most Americans have a fairly good perception on South Africa. I do reccomend to all the Americans reading this, to check out the South African Forum.......you might be surprised, and of course you are all welcome in the forum. :)

Jeff, for an answer to your question about Bloem, the population of the city is 389,000 proper and around 800,000 metro. :)

IMO, South Africa looks nice, but I don't like it in general. It's in AFRICA, but white people run and control shit there. What the hell is that? And it's sad that Africans are still oppressed out there to this day, even though those Afrikkaners are the real strangers to the area. And if Dave Matthews is from there, that gives me one more reason not to go, lol. I guess it's basically a white man's haven in Africa, and that was the only reason why it was settled.

I agree !

IMO, South Africa looks nice, but I don't like it in general. It's in AFRICA, but white people run and control shit there. What the hell is that? And it's sad that Africans are still oppressed out there to this day, even though those Afrikkaners are the real strangers to the area. And if Dave Matthews is from there, that gives me one more reason not to go, lol. I guess it's basically a white man's haven in Africa, and that was the only reason why it was settled.
I'm non-white Carson brotha, but SA has made great strides on the issue of racism. Offcourse it still exists, but we are moving on. Theres no need to perpetuate racism and segregation. It has and always will be an achilles heal to development. And no, theres no single government in Africa still run by whites. Believe it or not, but south africans of all colours are determined to make this country and continent work, thanks to great leaders like Mandela & De Klerk. Mbeki (stupid utterings on Aids nontheless) is committed to make Africans work and to start doing things for themselves and stop looking back. We have come so far as to say that Africa belong to all born here- black, white, blue ,yellow. In fact- though I hate what white Afrikaners did, they are adapting rather well to the new political landscape, more so than the english whites, who find it more difficult to go with the flow. But things change if people are willing to change. Maybe black americans should do the same and start making America your own. You can do that by stop calling yourself 'African-Americans', because you are not from Africa, for centuries no more.

Black americans are not the one who prepetuate calling themselves "African-Americans" im sure American would do them fine, but the term is published in most American things not just by blacks

Just for interests sake, Id like to know american views on South African cities.
1. Did you know that Johannesburg is the largest city in the world not on/next to a water source, like an ocean/river?
2. Cape Town is the most european of African cities?
3. whether wild animals roam our city streets like elephants do in Bangkok?
4. more plant species in Cape Town city alone, than in all of the british Islands?
5. The biggest shopping complexes in the southern hemisphere are found in Cape Town and Johannesburg?
6. South Africa has more roads and raillines than all African countries combined?
7. Durban has the biggest and busiest port in the southern hemisphere?
8. South Africa will play host to the Soccer World Cup in 2010?

I have an EXTREMELY low opinion of South Africa.

It's in AFRICA, but white people run and control shit there. What the hell is that?

You and I live in North America, where settlers wiped out and wrangled up what was left of the natives and put them in reservations. How is that any different? The same thing happened in the Carribean, South America, the Pacific, Australia, and even parts of Asia were at one time controlled by Europeans.

All South Africa can do now is embrace its diversity and work for better conditions for everyone.

I think a lot of South African cities are beautiful. But then again, I'm completely ignorant in this regard because I can only tell by the pictures I see.

I'm non-white Carson brotha, but SA has made great strides on the issue of racism. Offcourse it still exists, but we are moving on. Theres no need to perpetuate racism and segregation. It has and always will be an achilles heal to development. And no, theres no single government in Africa still run by whites. Believe it or not, but south africans of all colours are determined to make this country and continent work, thanks to great leaders like Mandela & De Klerk. Mbeki (stupid utterings on Aids nontheless) is committed to make Africans work and to start doing things for themselves and stop looking back. We have come so far as to say that Africa belong to all born here- black, white, blue ,yellow. In fact- though I hate what white Afrikaners did, they are adapting rather well to the new political landscape, more so than the english whites, who find it more difficult to go with the flow. But things change if people are willing to change. Maybe black americans should do the same and start making America your own. You can do that by stop calling yourself 'African-Americans', because you are not from Africa, for centuries no more.

I WILL NOT STOP CALLING MYSELF AFRICAN-AMERICAN BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT I AM!!!! I AM BOTH AFRICAN AND I AM AMERICAN. HOW WOULD YOU LIKE IT IF SOMEONE TOLD YOU TO STOP CALLING YOURSELF SOUTH AFRICAN ? YOU WOULDN'T LIKE IT WOULD YOU? SO DON'T TELL US TO STOP CALLING OURSELVES AFRICAN AMERICANS!!!!!!

I WILL NOT STOP CALLING MYSELF AFRICAN-AMERICAN BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT I AM!!!! I AM BOTH AFRICAN AND I AM AMERICAN. HOW WOULD YOU LIKE IT IF SOMEONE TOLD YOU TO STOP CALLING YOURSELF SOUTH AFRICAN ? YOU WOULDN'T LIKE IT WOULD YOU? SO DON'T TELL US TO STOP CALLING OURSELVES AFRICAN AMERICANS!!!!!!

I think he was speaking from a specific cultural perspective, and not meant as an insult. While SA has racial problems like the US does, cultural and historical differences cause the issue to be looked at differently. One shouldn't scream

I'm non-white Carson brotha, but SA has made great strides on the issue of racism. Offcourse it still exists, but we are moving on. Theres no need to perpetuate racism and segregation. It has and always will be an achilles heal to development. And no, theres no single government in Africa still run by whites. Believe it or not, but south africans of all colours are determined to make this country and continent work, thanks to great leaders like Mandela & De Klerk. Mbeki (stupid utterings on Aids nontheless) is committed to make Africans work and to start doing things for themselves and stop looking back. We have come so far as to say that Africa belong to all born here- black, white, blue ,yellow. In fact- though I hate what white Afrikaners did, they are adapting rather well to the new political landscape, more so than the english whites, who find it more difficult to go with the flow. But things change if people are willing to change. Maybe black americans should do the same and start making America your own. You can do that by stop calling yourself 'African-Americans', because you are not from Africa, for centuries no more.
Such a dumb statement. We're called African-Americans for the same reasons people are called Asian-American and because people are called Irish-American. You or your parents don't have to be from a country to be considered that. If you have black skin and your parents do and your parents parents do and somewhere down the line there's a slave, then your African-American. And what else would we call ourselves? Just plain old Americans? No, you are wrong. Very few people call themselves just American. America will never be our own, so quit shadowing the real racial issues that still go on in America and in South Africa. Like James Brown said, "I'm Black and I'm Proud", whether it be African American, Black, Afro American, or negro.

I think he was speaking from a specific cultural perspective, and not meant as an insult. While SA has racial problems like the US does, cultural and historical differences cause the issue to be looked at differently. One shouldn't scream

well i was insulted. i could never disrespect my ancestors by denying them as harkerb suggested and i would never ask anyone else to either. not recognizing that as an insult is like not recognizing the insult that muslims feel about the whole koran in the toilet thing. maybe you don't take pride in your ethnicity but i due. and yes one shouldn't scream.

Such a dumb statement. We're called African-Americans for the same reasons people are called Asian-American and because people are called Irish-American. You or your parents don't have to be from a country to be considered that. If you have black skin and your parents do and your parents parents do and somewhere down the line there's a slave, then your African-American. And what else would we call ourselves? Just plain old Americans? No, you are wrong. Very few people call themselves just American. America will never be our own, so quit shadowing the real racial issues that still go on in America and in South Africa. Like James Brown said, "I'm Black and I'm Proud", whether it be African American, Black, Afro American, or negro.

Actually, I know a good many people who call themselves just American, very few who call themselves something-Americans. It takes only a couple generations to lose the "something"-American, because, after all, you are American and not something-American, though your descent is from somewhere else. For example, my ancestors are from Germany, Ireland, England, Scotland, Wales, and France. But never would I call myself German-American or Irish-American, I am just American, and that's what Americans are. I think blacks should just call themselves Americans, because that is what they are, the African part just signifies their skin color, which shouldn't be a big deal. Heck, I don't see whites from Africa calling themselves African-Americans. Just be American.

Back on subject, South Africa is one of the few countries in Africa I might possibly live in.

Maybe black americans should do the same and start making America your own.


whoa whoa hold up slow down who the fuck are you? how dare you say that....what an ignorant, ignorant comment that shows you how much you don't know about history, are you aware of what Black Americans have done for this country? the united states was built on racism and slave labor...America is our own, everything about our culture is acknowledged (be it from music, to hair) accept for us the people..thats the problem..Amercia wants everything from black culture but the people...our color is always being used against us...for oppression and profit

is south africa your own?? first find out who you are before before you go making statments you know nothing about. It hurts hearing that come from you since you say you are a non-white south african, we are both people of color from different countries and cultures..but we have one thing in common our color...don't you understand comments like the one you made simply break the solidarity which we as black people can use to unify ourselves no matter where we are from



You can do that by stop calling yourself 'African-Americans', because you are not from Africa, for centuries no more.


your addressing your comment as if your talking to representative, we are all individuals here....

I grew up with kids from nigeria, the gambia, sengal, morroco, algeria, egypt and other countries in africa... they are African Americans. I'm a Black American, born and raised here in the united states, despite the crimes this country has commited against my culture I still love it here, i'm not going to run off to Africa or anywhere else. I have to deal with the problems I have here first and try to find ways to solve them so I can grow as a person and expand my understanding of other people. Here in a America we are called African Americans not because we choose to..That is a name a white run federal government has chosen to classify us as because we were brought to this country as slaves from africa. Here in the united states i'm classified as a African American, but I know before anything else i'm black

I think blacks should just call themselves Americans, because that is what they are, the African part just signifies their skin color, which shouldn't be a big deal. Heck, I don't see whites from Africa calling themselves African-Americans.

The former kicker for the Vikings (Gary Anderson) was a white guy who was born and raised in South Africa, so why couldn't he be an African-American? Wouldn't he be more of an African-American than a black person who's ancestors have been here for generations? Since he's white though, his ancestors must be from Europe, so technically, wouldn't he be a European-African-American?

What if he retired in Mexico and became a Mexican citizen, would he then be a European-African-American-Mexican?

"Black" people didn't start calling themselves African Americans untill the 80's when Jesse Jackson created the term. One of the reasons black people use the word, is because a lot of us don't know about our family roots..since the majority of our ancestors were slaves and had no birth records. We just know the majority of our ancestors came from Africa. Had Europeans brainwashed the memories of slaves, there is no telling what we would be calling ourselves today. But thankfully, our ancestors where able to remember enough about their birth-place to pass on information to the newer generations.

With that said, there is no guidline or rule written anywhere that says "Blacks" in America have to call themselves African American. Those that do choose to call themselves African American are just remembering were their ancestors came from...whats wrong with that? Some choose to call themselves "Black", which is also bullshit because nobody is actually the color white or black...for example i've never seen a person this color...

http://hometown.aol.com/mlbmiller/images/homepage%20-%20black%20color.jpg

have you?

And i've never seen a person the color of the background I am typing on...have you?

So in essence, the terms "Black" and "White" have no literal, or biological relevence in classifying people by skin color. They are no more accurate than a person calling themselves African American. If everybody was really oh so concerned about accuracy in describing ones place in our "racial hierarchy", we would be calling people with my skin tone "brown"...and people with Jennifer Lopez's skin tone "beige", or "off beige" lol

The words "white" and "black" are just lazy excuses to lump people into two categories...and the person that created those categories must have been high because he or she left out Asians and Hispanics etc. Where the hell do they fit in? In the middle? Why is there no yellow or red race? Why just black and white? Its all B.S.!

Well anyway, we are not African to any meaningful extent, but we are not white either , and that is much of why Jesse Jackson's presentation of the term "African American" caught on so fast. It sets us apart from the mainstream. It carries an air of standing protest, a reminder that our ancestors were brought here against their will, that their descendants were treated like animals for centuries, and that we have come a long way since then.

Well anyway, we are not African to any meaningful extent, but we are not white either , and that is much of why Jesse Jackson's presentation of the term "African American" caught on so fast. It sets us apart from the mainstream. It carries an air of standing protest, a reminder that our ancestors were brought here against their will, that their descendants were treated like animals for centuries, and that we have come a long way since then.

We'll really have come a long way when people start calling people "people" instead of "black", "white", whatever.

Some things you just have to let go. My very distant Scandinavian ancestors acted like animals and completely fucked over Europe, but I've never heard British or German people refer to certain Scandinavians as Norwegian devils like the term "white devils". My more recent Scandinavian ancestors were poor farmers that didn't have any farm land so they left the only place they knew and came here. Same thing with my Irish ancestors, they were broke and hungry (and their ancestors were raped, killed and robbed by my Norwegian ancestors), so they came to the US. None of that history really has anything to do with me though. I don't feel any pity for myself because of what my ancestors went through. I feel lucky to have been born in the US.

We'll really have come a long way when people start calling people "people" instead of "black", "white", whatever.

Some things you just have to let go. My very distant Scandinavian ancestors acted like animals and completely fucked over Europe, but I've never heard British or German people refer to certain Scandinavians as Norwegian devils like the term "white devils". My more recent Scandinavian ancestors were poor farmers that didn't have any farm land so they left the only place they knew and came here. Same thing with my Irish ancestors, they were broke and hungry (and their ancestors were raped, killed and robbed by my Norwegian ancestors), so they came to the US. None of that history really has anything to do with me though. I don't feel any pity for myself because of what my ancestors went through.

It's not about classifying people as "people". If you took time to read what I wrote, I was just saying that the terms "black" and "white" are no more accurate in classifying people than African American, since nobody is acutually "black" or "white" unless you know someone who is exxxtremly pale or exxtremly sunburned. So if you have a problem with people calling themselves African American, then you should also have a problem with people calling themselves "black" or "white." Instead of classifying people as people, if we really want an accurate system to classify people, we should use the right colors, which would not include the colors "black" and "white" because again, nobody in the world is acutally the color "black" or "white"...wouldn't it be more accurate to call a person of my skin tone "brown" rather than black? And a person Jlo's skin tone "beige" or off "beige?" The only problem with that is that we would have hundreds of colors, the positive thing about that is that everyone would be accounted for.

And as far as I know the term "white devil" was used during the 60's and we all know what was happending during the 60's...I hope..So maybe you may be wrong, unless you know for a fact what British and German people were calling Scandinavians during the time your ancestors were "acting like animals."

I have an EXTREMELY low opinion of South Africa.
I'd like to enlighten you. Please have a look at the South African forum. Nice pictures there. Id be happy to try and answer any Q's. :cheers:

I WILL NOT STOP CALLING MYSELF AFRICAN-AMERICAN BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT I AM!!!! I AM BOTH AFRICAN AND I AM AMERICAN. HOW WOULD YOU LIKE IT IF SOMEONE TOLD YOU TO STOP CALLING YOURSELF SOUTH AFRICAN ? YOU WOULDN'T LIKE IT WOULD YOU? SO DON'T TELL US TO STOP CALLING OURSELVES AFRICAN AMERICANS!!!!!!
Sorry to say, but your attitude is extremely sad, and your argument holds no water as I LIVE in South Africa, therefore I AM South African. If you are not from Africa, how in the good name can you call yourselves African?
I do not want to get into a fundamentalist argument with you or your brothers, for the simple thruth that it sounds like many black americans simply DO NOT WANT TO reconcile, bury their bitterness and want to become proud americans. Your attitudes are extremely racists, whether you want to admit it or not. GET OVER IT!!
Afterall, open your own thread and voice your anger there. My thread is referring to CITIES.

Sorry to say, but your attitude is extremely sad, and your argument holds no water as I LIVE in South Africa, therefore I AM South African. If you are not from Africa, how in the good name can you call yourselves African?
I do not want to get into a fundamentalist argument with you or your brothers, for the simple thruth that it sounds like many black americans simply DO NOT WANT TO reconcile, bury their bitterness and want to become proud americans. Your attitudes are extremely racists, whether you want to admit it or not. GET OVER IT!!
Afterall, open your own thread and voice your anger there. My thread is referring to CITIES.

If no one is actually the color black, why do you call people "black American?" Its just a made up-- MAN MADE--- term like African American is, but they have meanings behind them that you need to understand first before criticizing. Furthermore if you want people to be so independent, why do you feal obligated to add the "black" onto the front of "American?" Obviously you are attempting to identify a certain group aren't you? Thats all the term "African American" does....why is it neccesary to say "black American" and not just "American?"

And if you know anything about history, you would know that their are also Afro-cuban's which is a term created for Cubans with African decent. And Afro-Mexicans, and Afro-Haitians, Afro-Puerto Ricans and Afro-Brazilians ...and on and on and on!


And if you took time to notice, you keep saying be a proud American, but people of Irish decent, who had ancestors that came to America around the same time a lot of African slaves came to America, call themselves Irish American...but no one is calling them "unproud" Americans.

No one in America is going to forget their heritage and what their ancestors went through....and I'm 100% positive that my ancestors came from the same continent you live on.

If no one is actually the color black, why do you call people "black American?" Its just a made up-- MAN MADE--- term like African American is, but they have meanings behind them that you need to understand first before criticizing.


And if you took time to notice, you keep saying be a proud American, but people of Irish decent, who had ancestors that came to America around the same time a lot of African slaves came to America, call themselves Irish American...but no one is calling them "unproud" Americans.

No one in America is going to forget their heritage and what their ancestors went through....and I'm 100% positive that my ancestors came from the same continent you live on.

I'm half Norwegian, half Irish, and a tiny bit German. I've never considered myself a Norwegian American, an Irish American, not even a European American, and I don't pay much attention to what my ancestors went through. My Dad's side is Norwegian, my Mom's side is Irish, and I've never heard any of my relatives refer to themselves as Norwegian-Americans or Irish-Americans. They came here in the 20th century, after the African slaves, so my ancestors are newer to the US than most "African-American's" ancestors are. It's interesting to me to know my ancestors history, but that's about it, I don't dwell on it.

And about those pictures from the early 1900's----I had about as much to do with that as anyone else on this board did, which is nothing. I didn't choose to be born with a beige skin color just as someone with a brown skin color didn't choose to be born brown. I didn't inherit any blame for things done in the past by people of my skin color just as a younger "brown" person doesn't inherit any suffering. When you're born, you're born with a clean slate.

I'm half Norwegian, half Irish, and a tiny bit German. I've never considered myself a Norwegian American, an Irish American, not even a European American, and I don't pay much attention to what my ancestors went through. My Dad's side is Norwegian, my Mom's side is Irish, and I've never heard any of my relatives refer to themselves as Norwegian-Americans or Irish-Americans. They came here in the 20th century, after the African slaves, so my ancestors are newer to the US than most "African-American's" ancestors are. It's interesting to me to know my ancestors history, but that's about it, I don't dwell on it.

And about those pictures from the early 1900's----I had about as much to do with that as anyone else on this board did, which is nothing. I didn't choose to be born with a beige skin color just as someone with a brown skin color didn't choose to be born brown. I didn't inherit any blame for things done in the past by people of my skin color just as a younger "brown" person doesn't inherit any suffering. When you're born, you're born with a clean slate.

Well, be as it may, you are just one person

http://www.irishamhc.com/

http://www.lawzone.com/half-nor/nor-am.htm

http://www.naha.stolaf.edu/

http://www.nb.no/html/norwegian-american_collection.html

http://www.norwegianamerican.org/

http://www.hmsdc.com/images/Irish-AmericanL.jpg

http://www.thewildgeese.com/pages/images/iramsong.jpg

I would problably even say the Irish-American culture is more embedded in American culture than the African American culture is. Sure we have holidays praising "black" leaders...but no holiday actually acknowledges the term "African Americans."

Well, be as it may, you are just one person


http://www.hmsdc.com/images/Irish-AmericanL.jpg

http://www.thewildgeese.com/pages/images/iramsong.jpg

I would problably even say the Irish-American culture is more embedded in American culture than the African American culture is. Sure we have holidays praising "black" leaders...but no holiday actually acknowledges the term "African Americans."

That first picture about Irish-American heritage month, I've never even heard of that. I don't even know what month it is, and I wouldn't be the slightest bit disappointed if it didn't exist. The 2nd picture looks just a little bit dated.

You cannot deny that you hear the term "African-American" about 100 times as much as you hear "Irish-American" or "Norwegian-American".

IMO, unless you're a first generation immigrant, drop the hyphenated American thing. You're an American.

That first picture about Irish-American heritage month, I've never even heard of that. I don't even know what month it is, and I wouldn't be the slightest bit disappointed if it didn't exist. The 2nd picture looks just a little bit dated.

You cannot deny that you hear the term "African-American" about 100 times as much as you hear "Irish-American" or "Norwegian-American".

IMO, unless you're a first generation immigrant, drop the hyphenated American thing. You're an American.


Well you've heard of it now.

This is rediculous. This is a country that used to legally call people like me Negroes, then we had to call ourselves Negroes... then they called us Colored, and we HAD to call ourselves colored, then we create our own VALID identity and people have a problem with it....wtf?

Don't give me all that B.S about oh "I didn't know Irish people call themsevles Irish Americans" yeah right..

there is an Irish American Museum, that was founded in 1986...thats a little before, or around the same time, people started calling themselves African American.

http://www.irishamericanheritagemuseum.org/
http://www.loc.gov/bicentennial/propage/NY/ny-21_h_mcnulty2.html


And wether or not i call myself African America...how does that affect you as a person?

We live in a country with "little Italy's" and "Chinatowns" and "Irish Pubs"...Yet the only people that get scrutinized for rembembering their heritiage is "black" people.

Don't give me all that B.S about oh "I didn't know Irish people call themsevles Irish Americans" yeah right..

there is an Irish American Museum, that was founded in 1986...thats a little before, or around the same time, people started calling themselves African American.


For the most part, people with Irish heritage don't call themselves Irish-Americans. You know, given the number of people in the US that are of Irish descent, you'd think you'd hear the term "Irish-American" all the time, but you don't because people rarely use that term.

Just because there is an Irish American museum doesn't mean that all people of Irish descent think of themselves as "Irish-Americans".

And don't think that when the Irish first started coming to the US that there weren't derogatory names for Irish immigrants. Ever heard of "mick" or "paddy"? One side of my Irish ancestor family changed their last name when they came here because it sounded too Irish, and being Irish wasn't a good thing. Irish immigrants were considered second class citizens.

For the most part, people with Irish heritage don't call themselves Irish-Americans. You know, given the number of people in the US that are of Irish descent, you'd think you'd hear the term "Irish-American" all the time, but you don't because people rarely use that term.

Just because there is an Irish American museum doesn't mean that all people of Irish descent think of themselves as "Irish-Americans".

And don't think that when the Irish first started coming to the US that there weren't derogatory names for Irish immigrants. Ever heard of "mick" or "paddy"? One side of my Irish ancestor family changed their last name when they came here because it sounded too Irish, and being Irish wasn't a good thing. Irish immigrants were considered second class citizens.

This land is the land of immigrants. The roots of all people here started by a parent, grandparent or great grandparent who came to this land to find better opportunities for himself or herself and providing that opportunity for his or her next generations.

However, there are two types of immigrants. Those who chose to come and those who were forced to come. Either way, they came and made this land their home.

Those who were forced to come remember their heritage and had to struggle with adopting this land as their new home, and want to live the life they had, in this adopted home. This is evident in all backgrounds; Chinese, Japanese, German, Norwegian, Iranian, Arab, African, you name it. The terms Chinese-American, Iranian-American, African-American are adopted by those who wish to stress their heritage and wanting to have a differentiation with "Americans".

Some Irish people came to America as indentured servants, but they were not servants FOR LIFE like Africans. That allowed them to assimilate into mainstream American culture faster than Africans. Hell, "blacks" didn't even get to vote uintill 1965..when was that? 40 something years ago.

Just to give you a little history of Race


go read that first and most famous essay on the question "What is an American?" In 1781, an immigrant Frenchman turned New York farmer named Hector St. Jean de Crevecoeur published his book Letters from an American Farmer. Here are some lines from its most quoted pages:

"...whence came all these people? They are a mixture of English, Scotch, Irish, French, Dutch, Germans, and Swedes. From this promiscuous breed, that race now called Americans have arisen. What, then, is the American, this new man? He is neither an European nor the descendant of an European; hence that strange mixture of blood, which you will find in no other country. I could point out to you a family whose grandfather was an Englishman, whose wife was Dutch, whose son married a French woman, and whose present four sons have now four wives of different nations. He is an American, who, leaving behind him all his ancient prejudices and manners, receives new ones from the new mode of life he has embraced, the new government he obeys, and the new rank he holds. . . . The Americans were once scattered all over Europe; here they are incorporated into one of the finest systems of populations which has ever appeared. "

No longer a European, the American represents a new race made from the stock of various European nations. No mention is made of Africans or Indians, perhaps because this new American race does indeed receive new prejudices from the new mode of life it has embraced. Crevecoeur candidly describes the process by which the American race originated as a white race; or rather, the way in which the descendants of Europeans constructed a myth of themselves as a white race with special claim on the answer to the question "What is an American?" An American was a white man.

People of African decent were not stupid, and they knew that. That is why over the period of hundreds of years we have had numerous identities, or titles that exclaim our identities. African American is just one.

Sorry to say, but your attitude is extremely sad, and your argument holds no water as I LIVE in South Africa, therefore I AM South African. If you are not from Africa, how in the good name can you call yourselves African?
I do not want to get into a fundamentalist argument with you or your brothers, for the simple thruth that it sounds like many black americans simply DO NOT WANT TO reconcile, bury their bitterness and want to become proud americans. Your attitudes are extremely racists, whether you want to admit it or not. GET OVER IT!!
Afterall, open your own thread and voice your anger there. My thread is referring to CITIES.

you don't understand and it seems like you don't want to understand. if i'm wrong then i suggest that you come here and spend some time with us, learn our history and about our culture. oh, and just out of curiousity, what attitudes exactly are extremely racist?

This land is the land of immigrants. The roots of all people here started by a parent, grandparent or great grandparent who came to this land to find better opportunities for himself or herself and providing that opportunity for his or her next generations.

However, there are two types of immigrants. Those who chose to come and those who were forced to come. Either way, they came and made this land their home.

Those who were forced to come remember their heritage and had to struggle with adopting this land as their new home, and want to live the life they had, in this adopted home. This is evident in all backgrounds; Chinese, Japanese, German, Norwegian, Iranian, Arab, African, you name it. The terms Chinese-American, Iranian-American, African-American are adopted by those who wish to stress their heritage and wanting to have a differentiation with "Americans".

Some Irish people came to America as indentured servants, but they were not servants FOR LIFE like Africans. That allowed them to assimilate into mainstream American culture faster than Africans. Hell, "blacks" didn't even get to vote uintill 1965..when was that? 40 something years ago.

Just to give you a little history of Race


go read that first and most famous essay on the question "What is an American?" In 1781, an immigrant Frenchman turned New York farmer named Hector St. Jean de Crevecoeur published his book Letters from an American Farmer. Here are some lines from its most quoted pages:

"...whence came all these people? They are a mixture of English, Scotch, Irish, French, Dutch, Germans, and Swedes. From this promiscuous breed, that race now called Americans have arisen. What, then, is the American, this new man? He is neither an European nor the descendant of an European; hence that strange mixture of blood, which you will find in no other country. I could point out to you a family whose grandfather was an Englishman, whose wife was Dutch, whose son married a French woman, and whose present four sons have now four wives of different nations. He is an American, who, leaving behind him all his ancient prejudices and manners, receives new ones from the new mode of life he has embraced, the new government he obeys, and the new rank he holds. . . . The Americans were once scattered all over Europe; here they are incorporated into one of the finest systems of populations which has ever appeared. "

No longer a European, the American represents a new race made from the stock of various European nations. No mention is made of Africans or Indians, perhaps because this new American race does indeed receive new prejudices from the new mode of life it has embraced. Crevecoeur candidly describes the process by which the American race originated as a white race; or rather, the way in which the descendants of Europeans constructed a myth of themselves as a white race with special claim on the answer to the question "What is an American?" An American was a white man.

People of African decent were not stupid, and they knew that. That is why over the period of hundreds of years we have had numerous identities, or titles that exclaim our identities. African American is just one.

Come on, that was written in 1781! Talk about living in the past. And the whole thing about "African Americans" not being able to vote 40 years ago? Neither you or I are even 40 years old!

You know, I realize that is some ugly history, but I get the sense that you want "whites" to feel pity for you for what your ancestors went through. I'm sorry, but I feel no pity for you and I don't feel guilty at all for what people who lived before me with the same skin color as me did.

And Harkerb, have you ever taken time to think about why there are so-called "blacks" in America and in Africa? And the fucked up thing is if you go to the Cia's world fact finder site you will see that when describing the racial make-up of the United States the site doesn't even acknowledge "African Americans"; "white 77.1%, black 12.9%, Asian 4.2%, Amerindian and Alaska native 1.5%, native Hawaiian and other Pacific islander 0.3%, other 4% (2000) " http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.html

But when you go the section on South Africa, you will see that they still classify people in YOUR country as "Colored"; black 75.2%, white 13.6%, Colored 8.6%, Indian 2.6%
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/sf.html#People

So ask yourself, which country has really advanced? You can't possibly think a country that still calls people "colored" is advanced..

and you need to stop painting this rose colored picture of South Africa. Yes its better now, than it was during apartheid. But it is still extremly segregated and people still live in run down townships.

Come on, that was written in 1781! Talk about living in the past. And the whole thing about "African Americans" not being able to vote 40 years ago? Neither you or I are even 40 years old!

You know, I realize that is some ugly history out there, but I get the sense that you want "whites" to feel pity for you for what your ancestors went through. I'm sorry, but I feel no pity for you and I don't feel guilty at all for what people who lived before me with the same skin color as me did.


Well when was the constitution written? 1789, We certainly don't see people moving on from that, we look at the thing like its the bible. The Decleration of Independence was written in 1776. and we look at that like a bible too. Even though we know when Thomas Jefferson said "all men are created equal" he was talking about white male land owners...and he owned slaves at the same time lol what a joke.

The former kicker for the Vikings (Gary Anderson) was a white guy who was born and raised in South Africa, so why couldn't he be an African-American? Wouldn't he be more of an African-American than a black person who's ancestors have been here for generations? Since he's white though, his ancestors must be from Europe, so technically, wouldn't he be a European-African-American?

What if he retired in Mexico and became a Mexican citizen, would he then be a European-African-American-Mexican?

he is a south african that's why. african americans are ALL descended from slaves that were captured and brought over from africa. most of our ancestors came from west africa and a small number from east and south west africa. unlike the slaves of other peoples throught the world (including inside africa) we in the new world were intentionally, forceably, and sistematically stripted of our own unique ethnic and cultural identities, languages and religions. ALL of this unlike all other americans was done against our will. all that survived as culture was combined into one new culture. most of us have a mixture of european, african, and american indian blood. this is unique to all of us in the new world, with the Africans (and don't tell me were not) of each nation developing a distinctiveness from the others.

Come on, that was written in 1781! Talk about living in the past. And the whole thing about "African Americans" not being able to vote 40 years ago? Neither you or I are even 40 years old!

You know, I realize that is some ugly history, but I get the sense that you want "whites" to feel pity for you for what your ancestors went through. I'm sorry, but I feel no pity for you and I don't feel guilty at all for what people who lived before me with the same skin color as me did.

we don't want your pity, we want your respect. and 40 years really isn't a long time ago.

you know its funny how, what has it been 75 years now, since the War and germans still feel something about what their parents and grandparents did, yet it's o.k. for white americans who never had anything to do with all of that crap here, keep telling us to get over it. what's the difference? gas chambers and ovens?

we don't want your pity, we want your respect. and 40 years really isn't a long time ago.

you know its funny how, what has it been 75 years now, since the War and germans still feel something about what their parents and grandparents did, yet it's o.k. for white americans who never had anything to do with all of that crap here, keep telling us to get over it. what's the difference? gas chambers and ovens?

Who says I don't respect certain groups of people? And what do you mean by "germans still feel something about what their parents and grandparents did"? Are you trying to say that they feel guilty? Why? Why should they feel guilty for something that they didn't have anything to do with? They can recognize what happened, and that's it. That's all there is to it.

Why should I or anyone feel guilty about events that happened in history when I didn't even exist? Why should certain people not be able to "get over" what didn't even happen to them? I'm telling you to "get over it"? Get over what? Slavery? Were you a slave? Was I was a slave owner? No. My ancestors weren't even slave owners, and even if they were, it wouldn't make a damn bit of difference to me because I had nothing to do with how they lived their lives. It just doesn't make sense.

Who says I don't respect certain groups of people? And what do you mean by "germans still feel something about what their parents and grandparents did"? Are you trying to say that they feel guilty? Why? Why should they feel guilty for something that they didn't have anything to do with? They can recognize what happened, and that's it. That's all there is to it.

Why should I or anyone feel guilty about events that happened in history when I didn't even exist? Why should certain people not be able to "get over" what didn't even happen to them? I'm telling you to "get over it"? Get over what? Slavery? Were you a slave? Was I was a slave owner? No. My ancestors weren't even slave owners, and even if they were, it wouldn't make a damn bit of difference to me because I had nothing to do with how they lived their lives. It just doesn't make sense.

corection: we want your respect INSTEAD OF your pity wether or not we get it. i specifically didn't say they feel guilty, although i know many of them do. i think what i should have said was that as a people they are sensitive to the atrocities of the past were as many white americans are not. that get over it comment was more so about your attitude than what you actually said. and i was referening specifically to the not voteing thing/civil rights era and jim crow, and not at all about slavery.

Why should I or anyone feel guilty about events that happened in history when I didn't even exist? Why should certain people not be able to "get over" what didn't even happen to them? I'm telling you to "get over it"? Get over what? Slavery? Were you a slave? Was I was a slave owner? No. My ancestors weren't even slave owners, and even if they were, it wouldn't make a damn bit of difference to me because I had nothing to do with how they lived their lives. It just doesn't make sense.


What you just said make no sense.

I don't think anyone in here said you should feel guilty for anything...thats something you brought up.

corection: we want your respect INSTEAD OF your pity wether or not we get it.

Who is "we" and how am I not respecting them?

i specifically didn't say they feel guilty, although i know many of them do. i think what i should have said was that as a people they are sensitive to the atrocities of the past were as many white americans are not. that get over it comment was more so about your attitude than what you actually said.

This is what you said:

germans still feel something about what their parents and grandparents did

They feel "something"? What is "something"? I interpreted it as feeling guilt. Feeling guilty about something in the past is entirely different than recognizing that something happened in the past.

and i was referening specifically to the not voteing thing/civil rights era and jim crow, and not at all about slavery.

But if you weren't alive during the civil rights era and didn't have to deal with Jim Crow laws, then you shouldn't have to "get over" those events in history. I don't understand why some people want to attach themselves to things that didn't involve them.

But if you weren't alive during the civil rights era and didn't have to deal with Jim Crow laws, then you shouldn't have to "get over" those events in history. I don't understand why some people want to attach themselves to things that didn't involve them.


Wow, thats a pretty dumb statement,. my mother is 60 so she was around 15 during the civil rights movement. So if she tells me something about her struggles during that time I should over-look it because I wasn't alive? Wow

Everyone knows the effects of segregation and Jim Crow are still evident today, especially in the south. There aren't all black neighborhoods, housing projects, and Suburbs for nothing you know.

Wow, thats a pretty dumb statement,. my mother is 60 so she was around 15 during the civil rights movement. So if she tells me something about her struggles during that time I should over-look it because I wasn't alive? Wow

Everyone knows the effects of segregation and Jim Crow are still evident today, especially in the south. There aren't all black neighborhoods, housing projects, and Suburbs for nothing you know.

:bash: just leave it alone, he doesn't want to understand where we are coming from.

Wow, thats a pretty dumb statement,. my mother is 60 so she was around 15 during the civil rights movement. So if she tells me something about her struggles during that time I should over-look it because I wasn't alive? Wow

Everyone knows the effects of segregation and Jim Crow are still evident today, especially in the south. There aren't all black neighborhoods, housing projects, and Suburbs for nothing you know.

I'm never said you should overlook it. Of course people should recognize what happened in the past. But what does being "sensitive" about the things that happened in the past mean? I should "feel something" about what happened in the past? I don't know what that means. I don't think I should treat people differently because of what happend in the past. Nobody deserves any more or less respect because of their skin color.

Even if he doesn't get it...Anticheesehead...have you ever been to a "black church?" Probably not, have you even been to the deep south?

Well I bring up the black church to sort of explain why Slavery will probably never ever be forgotten by "black americans". Have you ever listened to "black gospel" music? If not, you need to. That music has been passed down from generation to generation dating all the way back to slavery. You need to go look up "Black slave songs" or "African American slave spirituals"

Those songs are sung in "black churches" every sunday expressing the pain and suffering of slavery.

"Go down Moses,
'Way down in Egypt land
Tell ol' Pharaoh
To let my people go. "


"Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home,
Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home."

That may partially explain why "black" people will never forget slavery. And another reason is because of the physical artifacts that remain....Have you ever seen a slave cemetery? I have, in fact I have a gallery on my website of my families cemetery that a lot of slaves were buried in http://www.pbase.com/soulbrotha4620/louisville_newburg_photos

And not only that but there are also still plantations standing all over the south. Here is one I see everyday in my own city.
http://www.pbase.com/soulbrotha4620/image/30821532

So yeah, scowl me for not forgetting when there are reminders everywhere I look. If you go to a southern city, there is a good chance that you will see constant reminders of slavery too.

You can take the most Americanized Jew you could find, but bring them to a Cemetery were victims of the holocoust rest, and I bet a million dollars they would break down and cry. Not nessecarily because they were victims of the holocoust, but because they know it happend to people just like them.

And back to the original subject. Ask any "black" person in South Africa if they see reminders of apartheid everyday, I bet they will all say yes.

Just for interests sake, Id like to know american views on South African cities.
1. Did you know that Johannesburg is the largest city in the world not on/next to a water source, like an ocean/river?
5. The biggest shopping complexes in the southern hemisphere are found in Cape Town and Johannesburg?


Great for South Africa. But I beg to differ on these two points.

1. Mexico City is the largest city in the world not built on or next to a water source.

2. South American Cities have huge and I mean monstrously large shopping centers (Sao Paulo for one )

You know, I realize that is some ugly history, but I get the sense that you want "whites" to feel pity for you for what your ancestors went through. I'm sorry, but I feel no pity for you and I don't feel guilty at all for what people who lived before me with the same skin color as me did.

no one is asking for pity, (and definitley not your pity) and no one is asking you to feel guilty..is there something that your insecure about or unable to accept?

i've been reading your posts and it just seems like soulbrotha is trying to bang a nail in the wall..but its not getting through

you don't have to be in the south to see remnants of slavery, I was raised up here in new york...and i've feel like there are more things to remind me of slavery up here than when I'm visiting family in the south.

...
1. Mexico City is the largest city in the world not built on or next to a water source...

yes and no. mexico city (tenochtitlan)was actually founded on an island in the middle of a lake (texcoco), which was dryed up during colonial times.

Wow, a thread about South Africa has turned into a pretty good discussion of American race relations...

So yeah, scowl me for not forgetting when there are reminders everywhere I look.

I'm not saying you shouldn't forget, I'm just saying that it's time for some people to move on, and I'm not necessarily talking about you in particular. Whenever someone has a victim mentality, naturally that person will look for perpetrators to place blame on, and often determining who the victims and perpetrators are is based solely on skin color.

no one is asking for pity, (and definitley not your pity) and no one is asking you to feel guilty..is there something that your insecure about or unable to accept?


Why would you think that? You must have an idea, otherwise you wouldn't have brought it up. What do you think I'm insecure about or unable to accept? People usually feel insecure about something or are unable to accept something because they are guilty of something. Am I guilty of something? You tell me.

Why would you think that? You must have an idea, otherwise you wouldn't have brought it up. What do you think I'm insecure about or unable to accept? People usually feel insecure about something or are unable to accept something because they are guilty of something. Am I guilty of something? You tell me.

duke, do you have short term memory probs? I dunno I won't jump to conclusions I'll just let this thread speak for it self..but lets rewind some..


Why should I or anyone feel guilty about events that happened in history when I didn't even exist? Why should certain people not be able to "get over" what didn't even happen to them? I'm telling you to "get over it"? Get over what? Slavery? Were you a slave? Was I was a slave owner? No. My ancestors weren't even slave owners, and even if they were, it wouldn't make a damn bit of difference to me because I had nothing to do with how they lived their lives. It just doesn't make sense.

no one throughout this thread said you should feel guilty about anything..YOU brought that up yourself.

People also feel insecure when they don't understand something too, insecurity also comes through when people don't want to understand something.

I'm not really sure if you recognized whats happening in the thread or if you can realize how much of it flew over your head throughout your replies.

This probably is irrelevant to most of you and to the topic...I just felt like adding my 2 cents in. I have no problem with someone calling themself "African-American" if they want to call themself that, then let them. Although...I do think the term "African-American" is extremely outdated. I mean you really don't hear it much anymore. Most people will say "blacks" as opposed to African-American, and I see nothing wrong with referring to an African-American as "black" I myself, do this.

Go around asking most people...Asians, Whites, Hispanics and even most blacks will use the term "black" instead of "African-American"

duke, do you have short term memory probs? I dunno I won't jump to conclusions I'll just let this thread speak for it self..but lets rewind some..



no one throughout this thread said you should feel guilty about anything..YOU brought that up yourself.

People also feel insecure when they don't understand something too, insecurity also comes through when people don't want to understand something.

I'm not really sure if you recognized whats happening in the thread or if you can realize how much of it flew over your head throughout your replies.

I'm asking you to explain your comments about me being insecure or not being able to accept something. What do you think I am insecure about? What can't I accept? What don't I understand? Don't dodge my questions, you brought them up. I don't need the thread to speak for itself, I'm asking you to clarify what you've already said.

This probably is irrelevant to most of you and to the topic...I just felt like adding my 2 cents in. I have no problem with someone calling themself "African-American" if they want to call themself that, then let them. Although...I do think the term "African-American" is extremely outdated. I mean you really don't hear it much anymore. Most people will say "blacks" as opposed to African-American, and I see nothing wrong with referring to an African-American as "black" I myself, do this.

Go around asking most people...Asians, Whites, Hispanics and even most blacks will use the term "black" instead of "African-American"

'african american' is a formal (and exclusionary) word used more so in print, the media, and in formal settings, 'black' is a conversational (and all-inclusive) word. its shorter/quicker to say that is why you're used to saying and hearing it.

let me explain a couple of words from my previous post before someone jumps on a soap box. when i said exclusionary i mean people whose ancestors were in the u.s. for hundreds of years not 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc. generation people who are jamaican, haitian, nigerian, ethiopian, etc. by descent. 'black' refers to all people who can trace their ancestry back to dark skinned people from africa described as black. in each case, however, the person doesn't have to look 'black' e.g. mariah carey, just as long as they have the ancestry. that is why an american whose ancestors came from morroco are neither 'black' nor 'african american' and an american from botswana may be a 'black american' but not an 'african american'.

how about botswanan-american? say that real fast three times...

i think american blacks referring to themselves as 'african-americans' is perfectly fine with me becuase the fact is that they were, as a people, forced from africa and the term does provide some solidarity with their roots. no other "hyphonated american" has had the kind of history as african americans.

botswanan-american. botswanan-american. btoswawhos... ahh DAMMIT!

let me explain a couple of words from my previous post before someone jumps on a soap box. when i said exclusionary i mean people whose ancestors were in the u.s. for hundreds of years not 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc. generation people who are jamaican, haitian, nigerian, ethiopian, etc. by descent. 'black' refers to all people who can trace their ancestry back to dark skinned people from africa described as black. in each case, however, the person doesn't have to look 'black' e.g. mariah carey, just as long as they have the ancestry. that is why an american whose ancestors came from morroco are neither 'black' nor 'african american' and an american from botswana may be a 'black american' but not an 'african american'.
Mariah Carey is half-white, just wanted to point that out. And like many other people, I find it hard to think of her as black.

He said (to paraphrase) "theres a perception that SA and Africa are the same"

Now you dont think it might just be because there is so little information about South Africa out there for broad consumption? This perception is supposed to be somehow tied to kids, shut-ins, and those evil people who live in and are proud of America?



Why are nationalists always associated with the right anyways? Nazis were both nationalists and socialists.
Americans are not Nazis, so don't try and compare us to them.

And I base my statement on several years of running big web forums, and stand by my assertion.

I'm asking you to explain your comments about me being insecure or not being able to accept something. What do you think I am insecure about? What can't I accept? What don't I understand? Don't dodge my questions, you brought them up. I don't need the thread to speak for itself, I'm asking you to clarify what you've already said.

no ones dodging your questions, I still think the thread speaks for itself..but if you want me to clarify then lets rewind again.

You know, I realize that is some ugly history, but I get the sense that you want "whites" to feel pity for you for what your ancestors went through. I'm sorry, but I feel no pity for you and I don't feel guilty at all for what people who lived before me with the same skin color as me did.

Why should I or anyone feel guilty about events that happened in history when I didn't even exist? Why should certain people not be able to "get over" what didn't even happen to them? I'm telling you to "get over it"? Get over what? Slavery? Were you a slave? Was I was a slave owner? No. My ancestors weren't even slave owners, and even if they were, it wouldn't make a damn bit of difference to me because I had nothing to do with how they lived their lives. It just doesn't make sense.

Throughout these two post in the thread I got the feeling that you had some insecurity with the issue brought up because for one, you yourself made the question of "why should I feel guilty" when no one in the thread brought it up. From reading your posts, especially this one where your saying to "get over what happened" you are unaware conditions that still affect Black communities in America. After being enslaved for over 400 years, and still not being given respect by our own country, a country that still exploits our communities where the media is always looking to make negatives out of positives; a country that has purposely destroyed and split up families and communities...and your asking me to get over it? If I told a Jewish person to get over the holocaust someone would immediately shout "Anti-semitist!" and you want to tell me to get over it? Balzac once said "equality is a right but it will never be a fact", I know that is something we can both agree on.

But if you weren't alive during the civil rights era and didn't have to deal with Jim Crow laws, then you shouldn't have to "get over" those events in history. I don't understand why some people want to attach themselves to things that didn't involve them.

How much thought went into making this statement? What your saying is that my grandparents and parents don't involve myself? the history of the neighborhoods I grew up (all black neighborhoods at that) don't involve me?
Soulbrotha made a good point, There is a reason for black neighborhoods and suburbs. The segregation that created these neighborhoods is still alive today, I can say from my experience one of the most racist things I've had to deal with was urban renewal in my neighborhood and my fathers neigbhorhood.

I'm never said you should overlook it. Of course people should recognize what happened in the past. But what does being "sensitive" about the things that happened in the past mean? I should "feel something" about what happened in the past?

I believe this is a question you need to ask yourself, if you don't know your past then where are you going? You gave a good example of something you "feel" about in the past, your scandinavian/irish heritage

Throughout these two post in the thread I got the feeling that you had some insecurity with the issue brought up because for one, you yourself made the question of "why should I feel guilty" when no one in the thread brought it up

People in this thread were posting pictures of what "whites" did to "blacks" in America when this thread isn't even about that. I'm white.

From reading your posts, especially this one where your saying to "get over what happened" you are unaware conditions that still affect Black communities in America. After being enslaved for over 400 years, and still not being given respect by our own country, a country that still exploits our communities where the media is always looking to make negatives out of positives; a country that has purposely destroyed and split up families and communities...and your asking me to get over it?

You are not enslaved though, so yes, I am saying that people should get over that. How far are you going to get in life if you're walking around constantly with the idea that you're a victim, so why try to succeed at anything?

What your saying is that my grandparents and parents don't involve myself?

What I am saying is that your grandparents' and parents' experiences aren't necessarily your experiences.

I believe this is a question you need to ask yourself, if you don't know your past then where are you going?

Here's a question for you, if you live in the past, then how can you move forward?

People in this thread were posting pictures of what "whites" did to "blacks" in America when this thread isn't even about that. I'm white.



You are not enslaved though, so yes, I am saying that people should get over that. How far are you going to get in life if you're walking around constantly with the idea that you're a victim, so why try to succeed at anything?



What I am saying is that your grandparents' and parents' experiences aren't necessarily your experiences.



Here's a question for you, if you live in the past, then how can you move forward?
See, this is the problem with some white people, they don't get it. If we could just "get over it", then we would. But no. Here's how it basically is: After slavery, they put us in cages. What cages you might be asking? Well, go to South LA, or go to East St. Louis, or Queens, or Brooklyn, or some parts of Atlanta, or some parts of Dallas. Those are the cages. There's no way we can forget it. Slavery is a part of history, just like WW2 or the Civil War. But the only thing is, slavery is still going on today. Why can't black artists do the music they want to? How come the ones that speak the real truth(like Talib Kweli, Common, Dead Prez, etc.) don't get paid as much as bullshit artists like 50 Cent? And why do we live next to places like Toxic Waste Dumps and are forced to go to the worst schools? How come there's no cure for AIDS? Why did the government get rid of the Black Panthers? Why did they bring crack to us? How come we're racially discriminated against day by day? Yes, slavery is still in full effect.

See, this is the problem with some white people, they don't get it. If we could just "get over it", then we would. But no. Here's how it basically is: After slavery, they put us in cages. What cages you might be asking? Well, go to South LA, or go to East St. Louis, or Queens, or Brooklyn, or some parts of Atlanta, or some parts of Dallas. Those are the cages. There's no way we can forget it. Slavery is a part of history, just like WW2 or the Civil War. But the only thing is, slavery is still going on today. Why can't black artists do the music they want to? How come the ones that speak the real truth(like Talib Kweli, Common, Dead Prez, etc.) don't get paid as much as bullshit artists like 50 Cent? And why do we live next to places like Toxic Waste Dumps and are forced to go to the worst schools? How come there's no cure for AIDS? Why did the government get rid of the Black Panthers? Why did they bring crack to us? How come we're racially discriminated against day by day? Yes, slavery is still in full effect.

First of all...I don't see why you say Brooklyn is a cage for blacks. If you knew anything about Brooklyn...you would know it has almost 2.5 million people living there and what race is the most represented in Brooklyn? That's right...WHITE. White's make up 42% of Brooklyn the next closest race is Black's with about 34%. And you say Queens is a cage for blacks? Give me a break. Queens is 44% White with only about a 20% black population...that means whites outnumber blacks more than 2 to 1 in Queens, yet you are calling it a place that blacks are caged?

Secondly...government giving crack to blacks to keep them down is kind of a conspiracy theory. Lots of people think the government did that, then again lots of people think the thought of that is ridiculous. And just to let you know...whites are racially discriminated against everyday too. I'm still a young guy, but I have met plenty of blacks who are racist as hell towards whites because a LONG time ago whites were slave owners (did you know there were a huge amount of blacks who owned slaves too?) and so they act like I and other whites are directly to blame for that. Trust me, whites get discriminated against too.

I want to know how those who have heritage to the slaves feel about the Africans who sold your relatives to the Americans? Nobody ever talks about the "black" warlords who sold their "black" P.O.W.'s to America. The "black man" enslaved their fellow "black man".

See, this is the problem with some white people, they don't get it. If we could just "get over it", then we would. But no.
Of course, there are some white people that don't get it, just as there are some black people that don't get it. It happens on both sides of the issue. I think many good hearted, non-racist whites in this country are tired of having to "feel guilty" for things that happened before they were even in the womb and had not control over. I hate what happened, and I hate the thought that some of my ancestors may possibly have taken part in what happend (meaning slavery, racism, etc), but I am not responsible for it. The one thing I am responsible for is remembering what did happen and working to make sure it never happens again, and that is what is most important.

First of all...I don't see why you say Brooklyn is a cage for blacks. If you knew anything about Brooklyn...you would know it has almost 2.5 million people living there and what race is the most represented in Brooklyn? That's right...WHITE. White's make up 42% of Brooklyn the next closest race is Black's with about 34%. And you say Queens is a cage for blacks? Give me a break. Queens is 44% White with only about a 20% black population...that means whites outnumber blacks more than 2 to 1 in Queens, yet you are calling it a place that blacks are caged?

Secondly...government giving crack to blacks to keep them down is kind of a conspiracy theory. Lots of people think the government did that, then again lots of people think the thought of that is ridiculous. And just to let you know...whites are racially discriminated against everyday too. I'm still a young guy, but I have met plenty of blacks who are racist as hell towards whites because a LONG time ago whites were slave owners (did you know there were a huge amount of blacks who owned slaves too?) and so they act like I and other whites are directly to blame for that. Trust me, whites get discriminated against too.
No duh, there's no full city or borough that is more than 75 % black. Compton and Watts is only around 45%.

[QUOTE]I want to know how those who have heritage to the slaves feel about the Africans who sold your relatives to the Americans? Nobody ever talks about the "black" warlords who sold their "black" P.O.W.'s to America. The "black man" enslaved their fellow "black man".[QUOTE]
That didn't happen always though. And don't tell me it was a fair trade, it probably wasn't either.

No duh, there's no full city or borough that is more than 75 % black. Compton and Watts is only around 45%.

That didn't happen always though. And don't tell me it was a fair trade, it probably wasn't either.

What are you talking about? You were naming off cities that you said were "cages" for black people. You named off Brooklyn and Queens. I just told you that Brooklyn and Queens were a lot more white than they are black...and you say "no duh" in response? If it's "no duh" then why did you say those are cages for black people when they obviously aren't? What do you mean there are no cities more than 75% black?

Detroit, East St. Louis and Gary are just 3 examples of cities that have a black population of more than 75%

You make a big argument about how whites enslaved blacks but then when I and someone else mentions that blacks not only sold their fellow people away but blacks also took part in slave ownership you try and put a level of degree on it by saying "that didn't happen always though" Oh okay, well I guess that makes it alright then?

What are you talking about? You were naming off cities that you said were "cages" for black people. You named off Brooklyn and Queens. I just told you that Brooklyn and Queens were a lot more white than they are black...and you say "no duh" in response? If it's "no duh" then why did you say those are cages for black people when they obviously aren't? What do you mean there are no cities more than 75% black?

Detroit, East St. Louis and Gary are just 3 examples of cities that have a black population of more than 75%

You make a big argument about how whites enslaved blacks but then when I and someone else mentions that blacks not only sold their fellow people away but blacks also took part in slave ownership you try and put a level of degree on it by saying "that didn't happen always though" Oh okay, well I guess that makes it alright then?Well all I'm trying to say is that of course Brooklyn and Queens aren't in full cages. But there are parts of it. Like you can say Los Angeles is, but not all of it is, because it's mostly a white city.

Well all I'm trying to say is that of course Brooklyn and Queens aren't in full cages. But there are parts of it. Like you can say Los Angeles is, but not all of it is, because it's mostly a white city.

There is only about a 30% population of white's in Los Angeles. Los Angeles is not a "mostly white city" it is a "mostly hispanic city." And to say parts of cities are mostly black doesn't really say anything. Because there are other pats of cities that are mostly white and there are other parts of cities that are mostly hispanic. So I don't really see what point you are trying to make by saying that.

And I ask you again....

You make a big argument about how whites enslaved blacks but then when I and someone else mentions that blacks not only sold their fellow people away but blacks also took part in slave ownership you try and put a level of degree on it by saying "that didn't happen always though" Oh okay, well I guess that makes it alright then?

Mariah Carey is half-white, just wanted to point that out. And like many other people, I find it hard to think of her as black.Halle Berry is half white as well. Do you have the same opinion about her? Just wondering.

Alicia Keys has a white mother.

Typically, the people who act like this from the US that you would find on the internet are one of three types.... Children who don't know any better... ignorant shut-ins who choose not to know any better... and the arrogant nationalist type, who even though they do know of a another nation's traits, still bash basically every other country on Earth, because no country can be as 'free' or 'great' or 'God blessed' as red Amurrikkka is.

I would think that the people who feel that way are really the racists who think that because whites ran the place for years, it's somehow superior to the rest of Africa when, in fact, for the majority of its citizens--i.e., black South Africans--economic conditions aren't that significantly better than in the rest of the continent.

Hell, "blacks" didn't even get to vote uintill 1965..when was that? 40 something years ago.

Soulbrotha--

I agree with most of what you say regarding ethnic identity. Basically, I don't care what people call themselves. I did census work in 2000 where people got to select their ethnicity from about 4 dozen categories or just fill in the blank with whatever group they wanted. I told people they could be Russian-Samoan-Arab if that tickled them.

Regarding the vote, though. Your statement is not quite accurate. Outside the South, black voting rights were pretty universally established post-Civil War. Even in the South, by the 1930's, blacks were enfranchised in most southern cities, albeit controlled by white political bosses. For example, in Tennessee, "Boss Crump" controlled Memphis' black vote, and controlled the state because of that---beginning in 1910.

The 1965 voting rights act was basically aimed at the rural counties in Mississippi, Alabama, etc. In the cities, blacks could vote.

Of course, voting districts were rigged to ensure that no black actually got elected to any office of importance.

Soulbrotha--



Regarding the vote, though. Your statement is not quite accurate. Outside the South, black voting rights were pretty universally established post-Civil War.


But they still couldn't vote.

And if they wanted to vote, they would have to pay a poll tax (that whites didn't have to pay), or take a test that most whites couldn't even pass at that time.

And what do you mean by Universally?

Mariah Carey is half-white, just wanted to point that out. And like many other people, I find it hard to think of her as black.

Funny that you say that. I remember the first time i ever saw/heard Mariah i automatically assummed she was black, and i'm pretty sure i wasn't alone.

botswanan-american. botswanan-american. btoswawhos... ahh DAMMIT!
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I want to know how those who have heritage to the slaves feel about the Africans who sold your relatives to the Americans? Nobody ever talks about the "black" warlords who sold their "black" P.O.W.'s to America. The "black man" enslaved their fellow "black man".

Yes little johny blacks did enslave blacks and yes blacks did sell other blacks to the whites.....forgive my condiscending attittude (and bad spelling), but i coudn't resist.

now seriously; throughout human history almost every group of people have been enslaved, but from what i have researched it seems that in africa slavery wasn't as inhumane as it was in the new world. and yes people due talk about "black warlords" - technically they were kings, but africans are too savage to have kings, right? :| anyway, generally we don't have animousity towards them because on their part they committed a single one time crime and their descendants have suffered because of it. also, it's not unlikely to come across a west african who feels guilt/remorse/humiliation/shame for what their ancestors did. these same people, as well as others who don't nessessarily feel that way due embrace those of the african diaspora with open arms, as long lost relatives. that is not as frequently the case here in the new world.
here in the new world africans were first (horribly) enslaved, systematically destroyed, freed on paper, abused and subjugated, and finally discriminated and marginalized. all of this by many many more generations than the africans.

i hope all of this makes since, i'm abit out of it right now.

Halle Berry is half white as well. Do you have the same opinion about her? Just wondering.

prob'ly not, halle tends to publicly embrace her blackness more.

But they still couldn't vote.

And if they wanted to vote, they would have to pay a poll tax (that whites didn't have to pay), or take a test that most whites couldn't even pass at that time.

And what do you mean by Universally?

As I said, prior to 1965, blacks could vote in large cities in the South and did. Blacks voted in New Orleans way before that time. Blacks in Memphis were part of a political machine.

I am old enough to remember in Memphis in the early 60's when most blacks still voted republican--the George Lee Society was the main black republican political machine. I also recall reading one of the biographies of Dr. King, where King, Sr., was called on to help get the vote out for JFK in 1960. He still stuck with Nixon though.

Poll taxes were levied against everyone--I remember my white uncle in Arkansas griping about it constantly.

The bogus literacy tests weren't for everyone of course. Even then, they were used in the rural areas.

As I said too, voting districts all over the South--rural or urban--were rigged to ensure that blacks could never elect a black to office.

"Universally"? As I said outside the South, as far as I'm aware blacks were able to exercise their franchise without impediment. That's why the Voting Rights Act only applied to certain areas in the South.

What are you talking about? You were naming off cities that you said were "cages" for black people. You named off Brooklyn and Queens. I just told you that Brooklyn and Queens were a lot more white than they are black...and you say "no duh" in response? If it's "no duh" then why did you say those are cages for black people when they obviously aren't? What do you mean there are no cities more than 75% black?

You're right that Brooklyn and Queens are not majority-black areas; nevertheless, I think his point is pretty clear. Blacks have been pretty consistently ghettoized since the end of slavery. As soon as the bulk of the black population gained the ability to own property, whites began to systematically keep them confined to particular areas of nearly every city. In most cases, those old boundaries are still in place. It's fair to say that the majority of the black population is still geographically isolated from white society, by economics now instead of law.

Yes little johny blacks did enslave blacks and yes blacks did sell other blacks to the whites.....forgive my condiscending attittude (and bad spelling), but i coudn't resist.

now seriously; throughout human history almost every group of people have been enslaved, but from what i have researched it seems that in africa slavery wasn't as inhumane as it was in the new world. and yes people due talk about "black warlords" - technically they were kings, but africans are too savage to have kings, right? :| anyway, generally we don't have animousity towards them because on their part they committed a single one time crime and their descendants have suffered because of it. also, it's not unlikely to come across a west african who feels guilt/remorse/humiliation/shame for what their ancestors did. these same people, as well as others who don't nessessarily feel that way due embrace those of the african diaspora with open arms, as long lost relatives. that is not as frequently the case here in the new world.
here in the new world africans were first (horribly) enslaved, systematically destroyed, freed on paper, abused and subjugated, and finally discriminated and marginalized. all of this by many many more generations than the africans.

i hope all of this makes since, i'm abit out of it right now.

It's important to remember that the Africans kicked their fellow Africans out of Africa. It was your brothers in other tribes who kidnapped your distant relatives and sold them as objects. That's what nobody ever brings up.

It's important to remember that the Africans kicked their fellow Africans out of Africa. It was your brothers in other tribes who kidnapped your distant relatives and sold them as objects. That's what nobody ever brings up.

i just said that. and actually they do bring that up. if they didn't you probably wouldn't have known about it. in no way have i ever witnessed that information being kept secret, or hushed. it's not talked about as much as what happened here because today we have more information: journals, local records, oral history, multiple sources, etc. whereas when it comes to the african rule in all this we don't know as much. for example, my grandfather can tell me family stories in great detail all the way to slave days. no one can tell me what happened back in africa. any info i find is open for anyone to get unlike the info i could get from my gramps.

i just said that. and actually they do bring that up. if they didn't you probably wouldn't have known about it. in no way have i ever witnessed that information being kept secret, or hushed. it's not talked about as much as what happened here because today we have more information: journals, local records, oral history, multiple sources, etc. whereas when it comes to the african rule in all this we don't know as much. for example, my grandfather can tell me family stories in great detail all the way to slave days. no one can tell me what happened back in africa. any info i find is open for anyone to get unlike the info i could get from my gramps.

and yes people due talk about "black warlords" - technically they were kings, but africans are too savage to have kings, right?

you want to make snotty remarks about my comment regarding the African WarLords, when you whine that they can't be regarded as KINGS. Yet, the african warlords didn't keep records of any kind. Probably in many places, they still don't to this day. See my point, don't get a snide attitude with me. They were warlords because they were basically animals selling humans for profit, and on top of that...they didn't even keep records! Kings...I don't think so.

they do bring that up. if they didn't you probably wouldn't have known about it.

Why wouldn't I have known about it if they do bring it up?

They were warlords because they were basically animals selling humans for profit, and on top of that...they didn't even keep records! Kings...I don't think so.

So was King George III a king? He oversaw exactly the same process that you describe above, but I don't think anyone would refer to him as a "warlord". Then again, he WAS English, after all...

FWIW, the discussion about African slave-traders is moot because they're not a part of American history. As far as anyone knows, none of them ended up settling in America. The current American population isn't constituted of their descendents, and the only influence they ever had on our country was from afar. So when talking about American race relations, they're really not part of the picture.

So was King George III a king? He oversaw exactly the same process that you describe above, but I don't think anyone would refer to him as a "warlord". Then again, he WAS English, after all...

FWIW, the discussion about African slave-traders is moot because they're not a part of American history. As far as anyone knows, none of them ended up settling in America. The current American population isn't constituted of their descendents, and the only influence they ever had on our country was from afar. So when talking about American race relations, they're really not part of the picture.

What's your point? King George kept records smart ass.

interesting, i didn't know that in order to be a king one had to keep written records.

interesting, i didn't know that in order to be a king one had to keep written records.

Let's accept the African leaders, at the time, as Kings. My point is they're not regarded as Kings, in the same light, as other Kings because they failed to discover new technology, create inventions, gain wealth, and be as influential as a lot of Kings from the past.

:cheers:

Let's accept the African leaders, at the time, as Kings. My point is they're not regarded as Kings, in the same light, as other Kings because they failed to discover new technology, create inventions, gain wealth, and be as influential as a lot of Kings from the past.

:cheers:

so then a king must discover new technology, create inventions, gain wealth, and be as influential as a lot of the kings of the past. something for me to ponder........

so then a king must discover new technology, create inventions, gain wealth, and be as influential as a lot of the kings of the past. something for me to ponder........

yes, that's right. i am the beholder of all knowledge. maybe if you learned to bury the hatchet, you wouldn't walk around bitter. And you wouldn't walk around making snide comments to strangers in a condescending manner. You're too petty for me to waste my time on. Peace be with you. You need it.

yes, that's right. i am the beholder of all knowledge. maybe if you learned to bury the hatchet, you wouldn't walk around bitter. And you wouldn't walk around making snide comments to strangers in a condescending manner. You're too petty for me to waste my time on. Peace be with you. You need it.

what hatchet? i have nothing against you.

Oh well, I give up. My thread has been hijacked by american racial issues! You are all so fucking screwed up! America this, America that.... Why do you always think that you live on Planet America?? That's what the whole idea of this thread was: to find out if you know anything about another country besides your own. But NO, you are all so self-absorbed, a nation of racists and hatred. All these arguments just proof that America is a nation of two extreme poles with an ocean between them. Sort out your own damn problems before attempting to solve the world's!

Oh well, I give up. My thread has been hijacked by american racial issues! You are all so fucking screwed up! America this, America that.... Why do you always think that you live on Planet America?? That's what the whole idea of this thread was: to find out if you know anything about another country besides your own. But NO, you are all so self-absorbed, a nation of racists and hatred. All these arguments just proof that America is a nation of two extreme poles with an ocean between them. Sort out your own damn problems before attempting to solve the world's!

Nice generalizations you have made. Maybe if you did not question why African Americans are named so, you would be taken seriously. You have been dismissed since page 2. When you come to our forum, don't try to belittle the African Americans because they did not grow up in Africa. What did you think was going to happen to your thread when you posted nonsense such as that? I love your attitude. It is what makes me motivated. Motivated to make more money and add to the Superpower's wealth.

And we would love to sort out our own problems first, but the rest of the world cries foul when something goes wrong in another area of the world. People expect the US to pay for other countries problems. We try to sit back and do our own thing (see world war II) but the rest of the world can't take care of themselves.

Oh well, I give up. My thread has been hijacked by american racial issues! You are all so fucking screwed up! America this, America that.... Why do you always think that you live on Planet America?? That's what the whole idea of this thread was: to find out if you know anything about another country besides your own. But NO, you are all so self-absorbed, a nation of racists and hatred. All these arguments just proof that America is a nation of two extreme poles with an ocean between them. Sort out your own damn problems before attempting to solve the world's!

Shut your mouth. Why don't you read what you wrote and see how dumb it makes you look. Because of what some people have said on this thread you are generalizing and saying all 300 million Americans are fucked up. All 300 million Americans are self-absorbed. All 300 million Americans are racists. That makes you the dumbest person I've seen all year. Thanks!

Oh well, I give up. My thread has been hijacked by american racial issues! You are all so fucking screwed up! America this, America that.... Why do you always think that you live on Planet America?? That's what the whole idea of this thread was: to find out if you know anything about another country besides your own. But NO, you are all so self-absorbed, a nation of racists and hatred. All these arguments just proof that America is a nation of two extreme poles with an ocean between them. Sort out your own damn problems before attempting to solve the world's!

i'm sorry that your thread has been hijacked by american racial issues, i really wish that it hadn't, but you did open up pandora's box when you said that one ethnicity should stop calling themselves what they are. and to be honest with you yes we are a very self-absorbed nation, but there are reasons behind that. be thankful you have gotten a chance to deal with the americans on this forum. i think that we here care more about the rest of the world than your average yank, e.g. all of us here know that africa is a continent and not a country, unlike many other americans. really we are good people, but just like everyone else we have our own buttons that can be so innocently pushed, like you did.

MO, unless you're a first generation immigrant, drop the hyphenated American thing. You're an American.

...I'd rather embrace and celebrate my ancestry instead of denying it.

yeah I think, in re the thread parents remarks, "what we have hear is a failure to communicate"....

man I've given up on this thread..
pardon my language if it offends anyone, but duke you've put your own foot in your own mouth planting the seeds for this thread to evolve into the discussion it has

trollish post

oh yeah?... then do yourself a favor while your asking Tarzan for your spear and shield back ask him if your shit stinks because you apparently don't smell it

its been real...i'm ghost from this thread

kinda off topic, but if you have the history channel this might be interesting to watch tonight.

Slave Catchers, Slave Resisters
Thursday, May 26 @ 8/7c The History Channel
This 2-hour special features stories about slave catchers and slave resistance, from the colonial era through the Civil War and its aftermath. Slavery was built on a brutal system of slave policing--enforced by armed community patrols, paid slave catchers, and federal law. And most of us think that slave catchers were always successful. But the bounty hunters' bloodhounds occasionally lost against the intelligence and courage of the enslaved. In the North, slave catchers were sometimes defeated by an organized--and armed--free black community. Using recreations, archival material, and scholar interviews, we hear stories of actual slave catchers and fleeing slaves that have never before been portrayed on film. Through the hunter/prey lens of time, these stories demonstrate that within the darkness, there was also light. For even when freedom seemed no more than an illusive dream, the enslaved and their supporters struggled for the day when America could be America...for all its people.

trollish post


I'm going to be in Capetown next next week.

I guess your an expert on life in West Africa?

I'm "more white than I would like to Admit??" WTF does that mean? In order to be American or Americanized you have to be "white?" Or act "white"? Your an idiot man. There are some places in your country that are far more modernized and even "Americanized" than places in the deep south, and other parts of the U.S., at this very moment.

What's your point? King George kept records smart ass.

Of slaves' names and ancestry? No, he certainly did not! The only records that were kept were the head count and monetary values, all else was lost as a result of the total lack of concern for African history.

So if you want to deny kingship to tyrannical warlords with no sense of history, start with white folk.

wow, this thread went to hell in a hand basket. But to get back on topic, I love hearing about South Africa and admit I do not know a whole lot about it. I am very interested in visiting someday, as it sounds like a great country.

I'm going to be in Capetown next next week.

I guess your an expert on life in West Africa?

I'm "more white than I would like to Admit??" WTF does that mean? In order to be American or Americanized you have to be "white?" Or act "white"? Your an idiot man. There are some places in your country that are far more modernized and even "Americanized" than places in the deep south, and other parts of the U.S., at this very moment.
First I gotta say hakerb sounds like that racist white dude who was representing South Africa in Lethal Weapon 2 and said Danny Glover couldn't go to South Africa because he's black, lol.

And Soulbrotha, really, no one in America says "I'm Proud To Be An American" until something real bad happens like 9/11. White people in the deep South say that all the time though.

hakerb...

do not post in this thread or you will be brigged.

this thread did have some decent discussions going on hense why i left it open.

hakerb...

do not post in this thread or you will be brigged.

this thread did have some decent discussions going on hense why i left it open.
Oh so typical George Bush tactic....we don't take criticism. "You are either with us or against us". You 'decent' discussions about your hatred for one another were not asked for in the first place. What started out as a thread on city issues, turned into a mud slinging racist affair. You can do me the favour and close this thread if it will make you feel less guilty.

Btw, that Lethal Weapon was a great movie! For once the Russians werent the baddies. :) Oh yes, believe it or not, but I'm not white, nor aspire to be white. I'm an African and damn proud of it. I've been oppressed by that same government portrayed in that movie. But democracy has won because we demanded it and we are moving on. The vast majority of white racists have emigrated. Those who stayed, enjoy the freedoms once denied to us. But Africa belongs to everyone who wants to be part of it, and we do not have a choice but to get along and so we will.
And if you did not know, Danny Glover was recently honoured here in South Africa, as an honary Zulu warrior by Zulu King Zwelethini.
:cheers:

Oh so typical George Bush tactic....we don't take criticism. "You are either with us or against us". You 'decent' discussions about your hatred for one another were not asked for in the first place. What started out as a thread on city issues, turned into a mud slinging racist affair. You can do me the favour and close this thread if it will make you feel less guilty.

I don't think so. He will just brig you. So have fun with that. :) :) :)

Interesting thread! I wonder however if the statement
"5. The biggest shopping complexes in the southern hemisphere are found in Cape Town and Johannesburg?" is really true. I believe *the* biggest one is to be found in Argentina actually! (Called Unicenter)

/A

Phew! Somenone gfinally got this thread back on track!! OK, Ill check up on that one. How old is the Unicentre? The biggest one to my understanding is/was Canal Walk (Cape Town, +-5 years old) & Eastgate (Jo'burg).

I've just read on the web that the Gateway Centre in Durban (SA) is now the biggest shopping centre in the S.H. It opened in Sept 2001 and covers the size eqv to 17 rugby (football) fields. It has 18 cinemas and an Imax theatre. If that's the case, then the S.H's top 3 shopping centres are found in SA .

For some reviews and images on Cape Town by mostly american visitors, check out http://travel.yahoo.com and type in Cape Town in the search bar. For more images, try pbase.com. And offcourse check out the SA threads on this site for insight from within. :drunk:

Oh so typical George Bush tactic....we don't take criticism. "You are either with us or against us". You 'decent' discussions about your hatred for one another were not asked for in the first place. What started out as a thread on city issues, turned into a mud slinging racist affair. You can do me the favour and close this thread if it will make you feel less guilty.

i have no problem with taking criticism but outward remarks such as yours crossed the line, imo.

...
Btw, that Lethal Weapon was a great movie! For once the Russians werent the baddies. :) Oh yes, believe it or not, but I'm not white, nor aspire to be white. I'm an African and damn proud of it. I've been oppressed by that same government portrayed in that movie....

just out of curiosity what tribe do you belong to?

I'm a modern day capetonian-city dweller of Cape Town. Mixed blood with khoisan,dutch,english,german,namara. Speak English, Afrikaans, Dutch, German and some French & Japanese. Born in Namibia, raised in South Africa, lived and worked in England,Germany,Taiwan,Tanzania & Japan. Soon going to Dubai. mmm...guess that makes me a true citizen of the world, hey?

so your colored then? never heard of the namara, what can you tell me about them.

I do not wish to put myself in a box. But thanks for the interest shown.

I do not wish to put myself in a box. But thanks for the interest shown.
lol your fido-mixed, hahaha. so called "black" people who are mixed with like 6 other races make me want to marry within my race and pray to god my children and their children do too. I don't want no ugly-ass "I'm part this and part that and part this and part that" bullshit.

I do not wish to put myself in a box. But thanks for the interest shown.

Es ist shade, aber die Merheit von diese Leute die hier disskussiert würden nicht verstehen, daß sie nichts mit den Afrikanern gemeinsam von Afrika haben. Ich habe viele Leute aus Afrika getroffen (z.b aus Ghana, Togo, Südafrika, Nigeria) und die meisten von ihnen verbinden sich nicht mit der Schwarzen Kultur hier in den Vereinigten Staaten.

Es ist shade, aber die Merheit von diese Leute die hier disskussiert würden nicht verstehen, daß sie nichts mit den Afrikanern gemeinsam von Afrika haben. Ich habe viele Leute aus Afrika getroffen (z.b aus Ghana, Togo, Südafrika, Nigeria) und die meisten von ihnen verbinden sich nicht mit der Schwarzen Kultur hier in den Vereinigten Staaten.

funny my experiences have been quite the opposite.

lol your fido-mixed, hahaha. so called "black" people who are mixed with like 6 other races make me want to marry within my race and pray to god my children and their children do too. I don't want no ugly-ass "I'm part this and part that and part this and part that" bullshit.

why all of the hostility?

My opinion on South African cities, judging from what I have read and seen in pictures, is that they are VERY Amerricanized.

For instance, to me, much of Johanessburg could easily be mistaken for the U.S. The U.S city that Johannesburg reminds me most of is Atlanta. Reading about these cities, they almost seem like twins.

-they have similar demographics, blacks and whites are most of the people, but other ethnicities are also visably and significantly present

-both have a similar population

-both are extremeley sprawled and suburban in nature, both are car dependant

-both have a mostly black inner city, with whites living up in the "northern suburbs"

-one is the center of commerece for the South U.S, the other for South Africa

-both are "black meccas"

Cape Town I have seen described as being European or Mediteranian, but to me it is more Californian, similar to San Francisco or San Diego

In fact, to me the major difference betweeen the two countries cities is the poverty level and the crime levels of South African cities is far, far, far higher.