I am sure y'all noticed this, but I will say it anyway: the new rendering for North Tower has balconies on the Fayetteville Street side from the 4th to the 20th floor. This is a bit strange because only the top 6 floors will be residential. Not that I have not seen office buildings with balconies, just not so many :)What do you think about this new leadership regime coming to the Raleigh city council, are they for smart growth or wolves in sheeps clothing trying to just simply slow the city down for the NIMBYS, what's your take Raleigh-NC, and anyone else please feel free to give your opinions.

From all the research I got on them they seem to be pro smarth growth and is willing to listen to the peoples' concerns and not just the developers'. I'm very happy for Raleigh.

"We want to have not just young professionals, we want to have families downtown because they tend to stay in downtown for a long period of time," said David Diaz, president and chief executive of the Downtown Raleigh Alliance.

The growing number of families also opens the door to more economic development downtown, Diaz said.

"Whether (it's) a grocery store, hardware store, pharmacy – these things are important to families, and they have to be within walking distance," he said.

finally someone echos my sentiments. i've been preaching this since i got on this forum. :bash: many things come with families, the least of which is a sense of permanence and community, and one would be foolish not to market towards that demographic if you want to be perceived as a successful downtown. amen david diaz!

Plans for a 8 to 10 story building on the southwest corner of West & Hillsborough St is planned. I like this idea, would like to see it a bit bigger, but an improvement over whats there.

http://www.newsobserver.com/business/story/737301.html

All the things that Diaz mentioned are already in place, and families have been pouring into downtown for quite some time now. Oakwood and Boylan Heights are definitely more family oriented than the rest of downtown, in my opinion. I totally agree with Diaz on his comments about young professionals. Good to have the latter, but we also need to cater to families. We are not there yet, but we are slowly getting to where we need to be.

A new announcement for Hillsborough Street: A lively plan for street (http://www.newsobserver.com/business/story/737301.html). While I am happy for something new coming to this side of Hillsborough Str, I am not as excited when I hear 8-10 stories on a 1.15 acre tract. Sorry, but no cigar for the developer. If they are going to demolish those nice low-rises along Hillsborough Str, they'd better offer something very impressive to balance the "loss".

Plans for a 8 to 10 story building on the southwest corner of West & Hillsborough St is planned. I like this idea, would like to see it a bit bigger, but an improvement over whats there.

http://www.newsobserver.com/business/story/737301.html

You beat me to it... :(

Under different circumstances, I would be jumping up and down, but the more I think about it, the less I like this idea. Let's assume for now that the existing businesses, who have been loyal to downtown during its toughest times, find a place to relocate, in the vicinity. I am not a big preservationist, but the low-rises that face Hillsborough Str are a bit attractive and deserve an extended life if they are to be replaced by a small mid-rise building. How in the Earth would they use the entire block for such a short building? Quite frankly, I am afraid that they will do what TCR did with 222 Glenwood and Hue... That is, put a stinkin' parking deck on nearly half the property. I am sorry, but this is a waste of space and there is no need sacrificing 40% of the block for a deck. Something along the same lines with Quorum Center and West At North would probably be better use. Or, something like The Hillsborough. This parcel deserves at least a 20-story tower, if not 25 stories. Certainly not an overwhelming project and I hope that the developer thinks it over. If anything, the city's Planning Dept should step in and discourage such use.

Of course, I am only speculating. Hopefully, the site plan and the renderings will show something more attractive than an 8-10 story building with a 4-5 story parking deck. I'd like to believe that additional retail will be placed there to offset the loss of the existing businesses.

This parcel deserves at least a 20-story tower, if not 25 stories. Certainly not an overwhelming project and I hope that the developer thinks it over. If anything, the city's Planning Dept should step in and discourage such use.
8-10 stories does seem conservative, especially in an area that, hopefully one day, will be so close to a major transit hub. Maybe they can work out a deal with the reynolds parking deck at the 'the hillsborough' for the office workers in this new tower and throw out the plans for any parking deck of their own.

What do you think about this new leadership regime coming to the Raleigh city council, are they for smart growth or wolves in sheeps clothing trying to just simply slow the city down for the NIMBYS, what's your take Raleigh-NC, and anyone else please feel free to give your opinions.
I normally try to avoid answering this type of questions because I can stir a lot of debates, but it would be rude not to answer your question. Just like in every case, the new blood deserves a chance to prove themselves worthy of the votes they received. I surely hope they will do the right thing for Raleigh and not try to please a few single-issue groups. Whether the newly elected officials will become the voice of NIMBY's, or not, it is to be seen. That was my as objective-as-I-can-make-it brief evaluation. Now, here are some afterthoughts:

This city council is not the result of a majority vote. Single-issue groups and politically active individuals tend to make noise, vote in large numbers and "deciding" the future of the city. Of course, the rest of the residents act irresponsibly by not voting.
Politically, this is not a city council that represents the people of Raleigh. Without a balance, we run the risk of offering opportunities to loud mouths (on both sides) who may take advantage of a mishandling by a city council member and run on one single issue. Personally, I wanted David Williams to win a seat. He is young, interested in important issues, seems to be detached from developers and supports public transit. He could have provided some balance, while fighting for the right ideas, but he didn't have the backing.
Developers support ALL major candidates, regardless. I am aware of at least one member of the current city council who screamed against several developments prior to become member of the city council, yet he changed his mind afterwards - in [U]some cases I am glad he did. I can't say he is influenced by developers, but he doesn't stand up to them, either.
Slow growth vs. no growth: You know at least as much as I do on this. As water becomes more scarce these days, growth will naturally slow down. I doubt the new candidates will try to stop the growth, but there is always a risk.
NIMBY's have found some new friends, I am afraid. While in some cases strong community input is needed, in other cases - particularly inside the Beltline - the city needs to stand up and tell these people to shut up. If I purchase an old/decrepit 1200sf house and I wish to replace it with a 3-story 3000sf, it is MY business, not the neighborhood's. Provided that the new house is not architecturally unappealing, or too much out of place, people should welcome the improvement. "Yes" to respecting the fabric, "no" to telling people how to live their lives or how to spend their money.
Meeker loves to spend and Stephenson loves to tax. With all the impact fees talk, I anticipate the city to raise money and use them irresponsibly. Many people cheer about the bookings in the new convention center during the first two years, but not everybody understands that we convention centers normally do not make money for the city... directly. While the convention center may not be a good example, we need to recognize that the city has been pretty bad about calculating the costs. Meeker and his allies will create a large debt for the city. This doesn't mean I don't approve some of the projects, but I am not ecstatic about the spending these days.
Urbanity: I do not anticipate any serious improvements. We have already taken the necessary steps to fix some of the problems our city faces in terms of urbanity and I do not expect the new council members to make any difference there. Those who lost the elections were not opposed to sidewalks, or connected neighborhoods and mixed-use projects.
Public transit is an area where we may see some improvements, although our city will create yet-another huge debt to deliver on this. The way Raleigh is laid out will make it hard to propose and establish a decent public transportation network. Still, I anticipate some improvements.
Pertaining to downtown, the new blood will not oppose the continuous focus, but in all honesty this would be unfair to other sections of Raleigh, particularly North Raleigh, where the majority of the population lives. Like in most cities I know, people don't care much about downtown. They love to have a vibrant center, but don't care to do anything about it. Even those council members and mayors that opposed certain public investments in downtown wanted to have a strong center for the city - I have spoken to some of them, in person. The only difference is in the approach. In the 90's, our city leaders made some strategic moves that made downtown attractive to the people. In particular, they created Downtown Raleigh Alliance, the Warehouse District and Glenwood South, hoping to make downtown a gathering place. During those days, the private sector seemed to have no interest in downtown. Only later, Gregg Sandreuter, Reynolds & Reynolds and Progress Energy expressed interest. Meeker came at a time when DT Raleigh was slowly transitioning. He was the right person, at the right place and time, although I am not sure he can take Raleigh to the next level. I am not suggesting he is not good, or that we have better alternatives at this point, but I am hoping for someone like McGrory shows up. We need people who can communicate with everyone and not try to please a few.
Urban Planning: Haven't seen any serious initiatives to stop the clear-cutting, or create better communities. With NIMBY's influencing most of the candidates in the new city council, I anticipate more sprawl and nowhere near as much density as I hoped to see in areas that can be redeveloped.
Impact fees: I am all for making developers pay for the growth, but a) they are not the ones who demand new housing and b) it is people like you and me that will get hit. Developers will find excuses to increase their fees even more and housing will become more expensive. There goes one of the most attractive things about Raleigh: housing affordability.
Transfer tax: Another stupid idea, by morons who cannot manage public money, yet they want to be elected. When you can't manage growth, make the hard working people pay for it. Somebody has to tell these idiots that the housing market drives much of the economy in the Triangle. It will eventually slow down, but at a pace we can absorb, not as a result of over-taxing hard-working people. The rich will not be hurt. WE will be hurt.
New developments in the downtown area may slow down a little, if the new council begins giving developers too much trouble, and I don't mean fighting the bad proposals. It is the local market that will determine the need for more towers, condos, shops, etc., so I'd like to believe that the slow down will not be due to council members wanting to turn us into another Chapel Hill, or Carrboro.

Most of the above issues can easily be fixed through the creation, adoption and application of the new urban guidelines that the city is currently trying to put in place. Every sprawling development I've seen presented to the city council gets approved because it is consistent with the Urban Guidelines document. The latter is what allows, and sometimes even forces developers to build crappy projects. The city needs to identify areas where denser communities can be developed and identify them as future candidates for public transit connections. When I hear that the current zoning along certain areas of Six Forks allows ONLY 3-story buildings, where something as tall as 10 floors would be more appropriate, I simply want to scream, or even pull out my hair.

If the new blood focuses more on improving the urban guidelines and less on raising taxes whenever they want to build something new, they have a good chance to put all those planning-related nightmares behind. I hope they manage to get the private sector more involved, by demonstrating responsible handling of public funds first. My advice to the new members of the council - not that they need it - is to start thinking big and don't waste publicly-owned land on projects that don't meet our long-term goals as a city. We need to get aggressive on recruiting some bigger corporations and not sit back, thinking that Progress Energy and RBC Centura will be saving our downtown's reputation forever.

If you reached this far, please forgive me for the lengthy reply. I understand that many of you may get upset with what I said, but keep in mind that it is very hard to offer a complete response without speculating, or presenting my personal opinion. Truthfully, I hope for the best, and I will give the new members the opportunity to present their ideas and demonstrate their commitment to Raleigh. If they prove to be good, then I will cheer with y'all, otherwise I will await for the next elections, hoping to see someone better stepping forward to challenge the incompetent ones.

^^Jesus. You expect me to read all of that? :eek2:

No, I honestly don't :)

The Hillsborough has been officially approved and if I understood correctly, the Reynoldses will pay the fair value for that parcel. Love it, or hate it, this project received the green light. On the plus side, the 3D model that the developers brought with them showed a tower significantly taller than the Clarion Hotel, which leads me to believe that the floors will be taller than the usual. The description said 24 floors, but I am pretty certain they meant 24 minus the 13th floor. Also, the 3D model showed an improved, progressive design, which will help this project distinguish itself from the rest of the towers. Let's hope The Hillsborough exceeds expectations when built.

The Hillsborough has been officially approved and if I understood correctly, the Reynoldses will pay the fair value for that parcel. Love it, or hate it, this project received the green light. On the plus side, the 3D model that the developers brought with them showed a tower significantly taller than the Clarion Hotel, which leads me to believe that the floors will be taller than the usual. The description said 24 floors, but I am pretty certain they meant 24 minus the 13th floor. Also, the 3D model showed an improved, progressive design, which will help this project distinguish itself from the rest of the towers. Let's hope The Hillsborough exceeds expectations when built.

Finally! I was getting sick of all the changes/delays. Thanks for the update.

Any renderings or photos of this 3D model? How much taller did it appear than the Clarion?

I didn't have the camera with me, therefore I have no photos to share :( From the looks of it, The Hillsborough appears to be about 175% percent of the Clarion's height, which makes it almost double. For those of you who like numbers try this: Quorum Center is about 200ft and stands a little taller than the Clarion Hotel. The Hillsborough is going to be 339ft, which means it will be about 170% of Quorum Center's height. So, it is safe to say that The Hillsborough will be approximately 75% taller than Clarion Hotel. That is definitely a major plus.

I didn't have the camera with me, therefore I have no photos to share :( From the looks of it, The Hillsborough appears to be about 175% percent of the Clarion's height, which makes it almost double. For those of you who like numbers try this: Quorum Center is about 200ft and stands a little taller than the Clarion Hotel. The Hillsborough is going to be 339ft, which means it will be about 170% of Quorum Center's height. So, it is safe to say that The Hillsborough will be approximately 75% taller than Clarion Hotel. That is definitely a major plus.

Question, did the city sell them the land beside 301 Hillsborough st. as well? Or just that one piece of property?

I'm still going to disagree about impact fees, pertaining to RNC's big post.

All it will do is eliminate some of the subsidy Raleigh currently gives to certain types of developments, and I think it's silly to equate that to 'punishing developers'. These are not developments that we need or can support, and they would simply be replaced by other types. Impact fees would only punish developers if they stuck to the same industry model: one that relies on the market equilibrium caused by property taxes that drives up demand for poorly-built suburban shitfields that otherwise wouldn't be desirable.

Nobody's saying this will cure anything. I agree with the entire rest of that post. I think you're simply mistaking 'taking one of the carrots away' with the stick treatment, if we were to use that analogy.

As for spending, there are too many things that need funds at the moment. If a worthless pet project has to get funded for schools to get funded, maybe that's better than nothing.

The whole impact fees debate can go on and on, and I promise not to continue on this issue. As long as those fees do not impact the average home buyer, I am fine with a gradual increase and I hope that other Triangle municipalities work together on this, so we don't see any. What I do not like is using such fees as an excuse for not managing the taxpayers' money properly. By the way, I would welcome measures, including impact fees, that apply to crappy developments. However, our city leaders should prevent those from materializing, in the first place, so higher impact fees would not be needed. Reward good developers by letting them build denser developments, make the approval process faster and make life Hell for those developers who insist on bringing crappy proposals to the city's Planning Dept. Send them a few times back to the drawing board and they will finally learn ;)

Let me ask y'all a general question: How many cities can you name that have gone through the growth pains and survived, without making life hard for developers and residents? I am being sincere, not sarcastic. I wish I knew the answer, but I am sure there have been some cities that managed growth well, without excessive restrictions, continuously increasing fees and taxation. Honestly, I hope our city leaders can find good solutions to the upcoming challenges.

DwntwnRaleighGuy, the sale was for the 301 Hillsborough property. Evidently, 309 Hillsborough was purchased years ago by the Reynoldses and they decided to go after the 301 Hillsborough property so they can build something taller than 14 floors - that was the original idea.

Let me ask y'all a general question: How many cities can you name that have gone through the growth pains and survived, without making life hard for developers and residents? I am being sincere, not sarcastic. I wish I knew the answer, but I am sure there have been some cities that managed growth well, without excessive restrictions, continuously increasing fees and taxation. Honestly, I hope our city leaders can find good solutions to the upcoming challenges.


Not too many if any at all. You'll always have the developers and residents go at it. There's been several developments here lately where that has happened. Sometimes the residents win and other times the developers win. It all depends on how the planning commission and city or county council feel about the project, where it is going, what it will look, and what impact it will have on the area including traffic concerns.

DwntwnRaleighGuy, the sale was for the 301 Hillsborough property. Evidently, 309 Hillsborough was purchased years ago by the Reynoldses and they decided to go after the 301 Hillsborough property so they can build something taller than 14 floors - that was the original idea.

Thank you!

I am assuming that the "Hillsborough" will only be built on the 301 property and not on 309 property? I don't know if you looked at that or if they showed that when they displayed there rendering at the meeting. Do you know which piece of property is larger?

I looked up the tax records for that block and to my surprise I found that the Reynoldses only own the 2nd Empire parking lot in the middle of the block. Two other groups own the rest of the block. I mistakenly thought that they owned the whole block other than the city's parcel.

DwntwnRaleighGuy: the 2nd Empire parking lot parcel is 29,400 sqft and the city parcel is 22,000 sqft.

More info on Smeeds York's proposed 8-10 story building at West St. and Hillsborough St.:

I happened to be at a function today that Smeeds York was attending. I asked him about his project and told him they should consider a taller building to fit in better with all of the 20+ story towers that will line H St. He said they had not finalized any plans and that it was possible that they could go taller with the building. (Which is probably a nice way of saying "mind your own business") He did mention trouble with parking requirements and the possibility of relocating the existing businesses across the street to the triangle shaped parcel. That would allow them to have retail on both sides of the street.

That sounds like something that would improve the area. Hopefully, no matter what height this building ends up, the overall development will be a well thought out and add a nice urban feel and street level activity to this prime piece of land.

The lot in the center is known as 309 Hillsborough. The developers will use both lots, with the 309 parcel being mostly occupied by the 4-story parking deck. It appears to me that the developers wish to leave a little space in the center of the block, in case the rest of the block gets developed. That way, The Hillsborough will not be too close to another tower. Let's put it this way, two thirds of the block will be used for The Hillsborough. Also, it is my impression that the 301 Hillsborough property is the larger of the two

As for the 8-10 story proposal, I would agree that it is a bit early to speculate on any increase/decrease in size. Since York will merely "represent" the developer, the former is very unlikely to push for a taller building. Having spoken to Smedes York MANY times, I can say this: whenever you hear York Properties, expect low-to-mid-rise developments :( He is very much in favor of skyscrapers and he throws his support behind large projects, but his company is more interested in smaller buildings and various infills. I hope to be proven wrong, and that the primary developer has bigger plans, but it is doubtful. Of course, even an 8-10 story midrise is a vast improvement, provided the new building will be architecturally attractive, but why not shooting for the best project possible?

The lot in the center is known as 309 Hillsborough. The developers will use both lots, with the 309 parcel being mostly occupied by the 4-story parking deck. It appears to me that the developers wish to leave a little space in the center of the block, in case the rest of the block gets developed. That way, The Hillsborough will not be too close to another tower. Let's put it this way, two thirds of the block will be used for The Hillsborough. Also, it is my impression that the 301 Hillsborough property is the larger of the two.

From the proposal do you think that the parking deck will be part of the actual structure or beside it?


As for the 8-10 story proposal, I would agree that it is a bit early to speculate on any increase/decrease in size. Since York will merely "represent" the developer, the former is very unlikely to push for a taller building. Having spoken to Smedes York MANY times, I can say this: whenever you hear York Properties, expect low-to-mid-rise developments :( He is very much in favor of skyscrapers and he throws his support behind large projects, but his company is more interested in smaller buildings and various infills. I hope to be proven wrong, and that the primary developer has bigger plans, but it is doubtful. Of course, even an 8-10 story midrise is a vast improvement, provided the new building will be architecturally attractive, but why not shooting for the best project possible?

Question, why do you think a developer would go through York/York properties? Is it just because York knows the area?

I am willing to bet that we'll see something similar to 222 Glenwood and Hue :( The reason is costs. The selection of York Properties as a co-developer/partner can be easily explained: connections, reputation, knowledge of the area and strategic partnerships. They have a good track and this was recently demonstrated by the quick sell-out of the RBC Plaza condos. Remember how pundits doubted that there is a long list of people interested in buying the RBC Plaza condos? Well, they were wrong and they should have been less pessimistic the minute they heard York-Simpson-Underwood were in charge of the sales. These guys, and I know them all personally, don't joke when it comes to business. When they get a contract, they deliver. I don't want to sound like I am praising them, but they are very aggressive when it comes to business. If Reynolds & Reynolds had hired YSU, The Hillsborough would have ended up at least 10 stories taller.

Of course, we need to distinguish between York Properties and York-Simpson-Underwood. The former is more involved with development, while the latter is in charge of sales, but they work very closely together. York Properties is still in its infancy when it comes to development. They did a decent job with their Holly Park development - there is more under way, across from there - and the 111 Seaboard will be a good project, as well, but when it comes to big things they are still very hesitant, however reliable they may be as partners. All they need to do is think big and find a partner who can build something more iconic, and certainly taller. Next time I see Smedes I will ask him about any plans for future high-rise development. His son is more likely to do this and if I get no answer from the father then I will bother him :)

I am not sure this belongs to a downtown thread, but given the interest by RBC Centura and Capital Bank, this news may affect the growth in DT Raleigh:

Raleigh banking sector is N.C.'s fastest growing (http://triangle.bizjournals.com/triangle/stories/2007/10/22/story4.html)
Triangle Business Journal - by Lee Weisbecker

RALEIGH - It may not have the most cash or the largest number of banks, but the Raleigh/Cary banking market was the fastest growing among the state's major metro areas during fiscal 2007.

Figures show the area added three new banks, bringing the total to 32. Total deposits on bank books rose from $14.16 billion to $15.64 billion, an increase of 10.4 percent, during the 12 months ending June 30, 2007.

The data was compiled by the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. and released the week of Oct. 10.

Only Asheville, a banking market that is less than half the size of Raleigh/Cary, grew at a comparable rate - 9.1 percent, according to FDIC.
I assume this is the kind of news that should make Raleigh more desirable to financial institutions, particularly banks. We cannot compete with cities where the banking industry is strong, but we can surely become a player. DT Raleigh should become more and more desirable place to do business in the nearest future.

Hey guys I'm glad I found this forum. I'm exstatic about the development going on in DT Raleigh, to the point I felt compelled to create an account on this forum.

Hope to contibute a constructive update sometime in the near future.

Welcome to the forum, RaleighWood. Join all of us, who are also ecstatic about the developments in DT Raleigh :)

Welcome Raleighwood, check out all of North and South Carolina's development.

g-man, get ready to say "Quit hogging it all"... again :)

Sounds like we are getting close to hearing more about the proposal for the SW corner of Glenwood Ave and Hillsborough Str. Earlier versions were in the 15-20 story area, while now this project has increased to the 20-30 floors range. Pretty exciting, right? This tower will definitely benefit from the scale down of The Hillsborough and I am glad to see that some developers finally start to think big - considering the location, it is a big proposal. My guess is that David Furman will be the architect, which is a big plus, IMHO.

Sandman plans condo tower for downtown Raleigh (http://triangle.bizjournals.com/triangle/stories/2007/10/29/story1.html?t=printable)
Triangle Business Journal - by Amanda Jones Hoyle

RALEIGH - Plans are coming together for what could be the tallest building yet along downtown Raleigh's Glenwood Avenue.

The development team that built the 10-story The Paramount condominium building is at it again - this time with a project three times larger that would rise at the corner of Glenwood Avenue and Hillsborough Street.

Raleigh lawyer and real estate investor Andy Sandman is finalizing plans for a mixed-use building tentatively called One Glenwood that could stand between 20 and 30 stories high with around 200 condominium units, ground-floor retail and a parking garage.

"We are just getting into the design," says Sandman, lead developer of the project. He wouldn't reveal too many other details about the building's design, but he says his team is committed to the project.

More downtown reports... Triangle Business Journal ran one more article for us. I am surely happy to know that the condo boom continues, although the appreciation rate doesn't make me excited. Hopefully, larger supply of condos will force the prices to remain stable for the years to come, keeping many flippers and short-term investors out of downtown market.
Number of downtown condos may quadruple (http://triangle.bizjournals.com/triangle/stories/2007/10/29/focus5.html)
Triangle Business Journal - by Jane Paige

While the downtown Raleigh condominium market has exploded since 2004, a record number of new urban projects are under construction or being planned for the city.

Condo units in the city's core have nearly doubled in the past three years, from 379 in 2004 to 693 units today. These numbers could quadruple within four years as more condo towers, and unit prices, continue to rise.

The median price of these downtown homes shot from $257,000 to $315,500 in 2006. That 23 percent increase is triple the appreciation rate of traditional single-family homes in Wake County.

Currently under construction are 690 more units in upscale projects ranging from the 33-story RBC Plaza, which is located at the corner of Martin and Fayetteville streets and already has sold 139 units, to The Hue, a 209-unit project situated at the corner of Hargett and Dawson streets.

^^Hey, you'll be the one saying quit hogging it all if our project skyline goes through. :D :lol: Until then I say quit hogging it all Raleigh.

You are entitled to hog it all sometimes, just don't steal from us ;)

cant wait to see the renderings!

Can you imagine the view looking east and south from that location. That is such a prime spot too, i like it.

WOW ALOT is happening in downtown Raleigh!!

The view along Hillsborough Street, especially looking East, will be fantastic!!! This is an entirely new skyline developing, however small it might be. Check out the following list of new projects in that area (keep in ming that we already have the 20-story Clarion Hotel and the 15-story Quorum Center in that area. The 15-story West At North is under way, too, but I will draw the line South of it because I want to stay as close to Hillsborough Street as possible.

The SW corner of Glenwood Ave/Hillsborough Str: 20-30 stories (residential/retail)
Winston Tower: 25 floors (hotel/residential/retail)
The Hillsborough: 23 floors (hotel/residential/retail)
The parcel across from 42nd Street Oyster Bar: 10 floors (hotel/commercial/retail)
The parcel SW of Winston Tower: 8-10 floors (residential/commercial/retail)

Can't wait to hear more about the other visions out there. There is plenty of land that developers could build on, especially some smaller parking lots. To be fair, we already knew about the latest announcement, but what we didn't know is that the developers are willing to scale up even more. I can see certain city council members preparing their swords ;)

It's also great when parking lots are torn up for tall development vs. historic buildings being demolished for taller ones. The small houses that are on this lot do not appear to have much value, correct me if I'm wrong? I also do not see a problem in picking them up and moving them to another location to clear things up. Let's hope they have ground floor retail to add even more options to the Glenwood area. :drunk:

Good thoughts, cophead. You are correct, the existing buildings do not have any historic value and I won't miss them. For those who happen to be ultra "romantic", they can always buy the buildings and relocate them if they want. To me, the [up to] 200 units and retail says a lot about the direction the developers want to go. Assuming that David Furman will design this tower, I expect to see something elegant and functional. The scale is also reasonable :okay:

Which brings me to the next topic: Will Boulevard Company answer with another similar proposal, for the West half of that block? Currently, they are taking everything VERY slow and I am not sure I like it, but at the same time I hope to see them moving forward with a better proposal than what they envisioned, which was a smaller mid-rise. They almost pulled out from this deal, but they came back to their senses and realized that it is THEY who will lose from such decision. DT Raleigh's condo market is far from being saturated - always believed that most people won't buy if they don't see the unit first. In fact, it is undeserved. I anticipate this developer to become encouraged and more aggressive in bringing forth a nice proposal. I do not expect anything taller than 15 floors, but even the latter should be enough.

So far, even with the reduced version of The Hillsborough, I am pleased with the progress along Hillsborough Str. If anything, we are going to get density and see significant height increase in that area, which is all I can expect for a transitional area.

Furman has a good NC track record. Look to Charlotte for some great buildings and developments. Hillsborough Str. is really starting to surprise me.

Question Ral_NC. Is this new proposal on the block bounded by Glenwood, Hillsborough, Boylan, and Willard Pl.? If so, this building should be a good bookend for the Glenwood South district, or at least the last leg of Glenwood Ave.

Also, the building across from 42nd St. Oyster Bar, is that across West St.? And finally, the parcel SW of the Winston proposal, is that bounded by Morgan, Hillsborough, and West? Is this latter building proposed for the former Marsh Woodwinds block? Those are a pretty nice section of storefronts, while not really attractive.

I was reading your complaints about "impact fees" a little earlier. Try moving to Florida...here in Tampa EVERY new home has to pay an impact fee. It adds a few thousands dollars to the cost of each house.

Do you guys pay state taxes? ;)

Well, no...but our property taxes are crazy. I could buy a nice car for the amount of property tax I pay each year.

Hello? Anybody home? G-man needs his fixing. :lol:

Don't have much of a fixing for g-man, but there are some positive article's from today's N&O. First, the article "Icing on the city's cake" (http://www.newsobserver.com/news/story/753120.html), and a mention of The Cupcake Shoppe. For those not familiar, this is a useful excerpt:
It's called The Cupcake Shoppe.

A bakery?!?! you say.

Let me explain. This is not the sort of place where you run in for a bag of elephant ears, crullers and cheese danish -- what back in Milwaukee we called schnecken.

No, no. No schnecken here. No cupcakes of the sort baked in my kitchen (and banned from Wake County schools).

No. This place sells elegant, elaborate works of art posing as cupcakes. (About $2.50 apiece.)

Scoff if you like. But I'm not exaggerating when I say this is one of the hottest culinary trends to sweep the nation. It got its start -- where else? -- in New York City. There, patrons form a line out the door of the cupcake shop Magnolia's (featured on an episode of "Sex and the City").
Another great addition to Glenwood South - it has been there for a few months, if I am not mistaken - and the owner's effort will hopefully be rewarded. I would hate a repeat of phase 1 of Capital City Grocery.

Some more good news, and possibly another mixed-use project in the future. N&O published another article, titled "Purchase gives club a chance" (http://www.newsobserver.com/business/story/753010.html). For those familiar with that location, they are discussing The Warehouse, one of the first major nightlife destinations and part of the early downtown revitalization efforts. While the article discussed its rebirth as a night club - never mind the factual error about the county's parking deck being built SE, instead of NE of The Warehouse - it also included a VERY important piece of information:
The building could eventually be redeveloped into a mix of hotel rooms, offices and condominiums. But, Anthony notes: "If a club could be very successful there, it could stay that way for a long time."
I really don't know what to wish for? Should I hope for the club to do well, or the opposite, so we can get another urban project? Tough call... To have even a small mixed-use building, the developer will have to build at least 10-15 stories, although I am pretty certain that any developer with a 50% functioning brain would go for at least 25 stories in that location - TCR and York Properties excluded. Not to mention the location's proximity to the Amtrak station and the new convention center, right across. The developer would be insane not to look into building a high-rise there.

Anyone saw this: Study: Downtown Raleigh Needs More Retail Variety (http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/1973093/)? First of all, it is a good thing that we emphasize retail in DT Raleigh. Without a doubt, there is plenty of room to make improvements. We are not there yet, but definitely on the right track. Second, it is time some people stop bitching. Take this, as an example:
Danny Nesrallah, who owns America's Pita Grill on Fayetteville Street, said he's skeptical downtown can succeed without changes.

"We opened the street for parking, right? Did we not? Nothing's happening. I've gotten $365 in tickets. I own a business on the mall. There are too many issues and too many things that were overlooked," Nesrallah said. "(We need) anything that's going to draw people down here on weekends. Come Saturday or Sunday, it's a ghost town."
I do not wish to sound ungrateful, but Danny Nesrallah is a bit unreasonable. What happened before the re-opening, when parking along Fayetteville Str was non-existent? Why does he even park where he is not supposed to? I do appreciate his contribution to downtown, but screaming about changes - watch him and listen to him in the video - is a bit hypocritical, especially when he keeps his store closed for dinner and during the weekends. Sure, it may be difficult at first, but for crying out loud, the image of his [closed] storefront hurts other businesses, too. To call Fayetteville Str "ghost town" at this stage of the revitalization, is a bit foolish. Nobody said that the people will flock to Fayetteville Str so soon. 2008 is pretty close, and so are 2010 and 2012. We will measure our success AFTER most of the planned condos are built, not before. In less than two years we have had 2 major events for the re-opening of Fayetteville Str and 2 Annual Capital City Bike Fests. Not to mention several other events that bring downtown thousands of people during weekends. Since he is closed he wouldn't know about it, I assume.

^^Very well said. I mentioned this article on my blog and called out Danny Nesrallah. when people complain about parking, it really frustrates me.

Let’s take Mr. Nesrallah, the owner of America's Pita Grill, quoted right in the WRAL article. For the record, APG is a good place, I’ve eaten there before and the two guys working there are nice and pretty laid back. He is quoted as have racked up $365 in parking tickets. I’m sorry Mr. Nesrallah but I’m going to have to call you out. I see you every morning parking right in front of APG and your car is there all day. OF COURSE YOU ARE GOING TO GET PARKING TICKETS!!!! Please, take a look around and notice that your business is located in a parking deck. If you get a $12 parking ticket every weekday, that’s about $240 a month. The Alexander square deck has monthly parking spaces for $120, but if you wait until 9:00 pm, you can leave the deck for free. Too late for you? The Moore Square deck, one block away, has spots for as low as $45 a month or you can wait until 7:00 pm and leave without paying a penny to park downtown. Downtown does not owe you a VIP spot right in front of the shop when 5 and 7 story parking decks are practically on top of you.

I may have been ranting just a little there but again when people complain about parking it simply drives me crazy. I think parking is incredibly easy on any normal day downtown. Even during the big events like raleigh wide open and the bike fest, the parking decks were not even close to full.

If you don't like coming to downtown, that's fine, everyone has their own opinion but if you are thinking to yourself "i can never find a place to park" then i need to come over there and :bash:

alright i'll stop right there :nuts:

You are right on the money :okay: I decided to read your blog right before posting anything and I am in total agreement with you. It is ridiculous to hear people complaining over stupid things. Sure, DT Raleigh's revitalization is taking place in multiple fronts (i.e. CBD, Glenwood Ave, Hillsborough Str, The Warehouse District) but it will take several years before people realize that it was only perceptions that kept them from visiting downtown more. If someone with deep pockets and strong financial backing could open 10-15 stores along strategic roads (i.e. Fayetteville Str, Salisbury Str, Wilmington Str, Glenwood Ave) things would change a little, but who is going to take the risk? A Trader Joe's, or an urban Target would help generate a lot of traffic. Blount Street Commons would probably be an ideal location for such stores.

Anyway, we can all rant, but at least we support downtown as best as we can. Let the idiots complain about not being able to find a spot to park their car, although there are thousands of parking spaces within 1-2 blocks from them :bash:

As you get more people living in downtown Raleigh, retail will pickup.

Here in Charlotte 10 years ago, the uptown all but close up after business hours. To day WBT has a uptown studio and at nights at 11PM there are people on the streets every night of the week. This is because we have move people living in the uptown area and more business open for them.

Now in uptown and south end of Charlotte we have the following:
89 Restaurants
73 fast food
6 fitness
22 clubs
7 finance (branch banks)
33 professioals
27 consumer goods
32 personal care
5 grocey stores
36 Sundries & dry cleaners
16 office supply
3 Pharmacys

With all the new projects in uptown, midtown and Elizabeth Ave are competed, the list will grow.

It will take more residents to get more retail to appear, I agree. What is frustrating is when the local news makes it seem like the downtown area is dead, a failure, when it is still early and lots of projects are being built. How could it be dead when there are multiple cranes building new things, one being taller then any building in downtown?

I guess people expect instant results these days and are impatient. Until then.......:cheers2:

Not only DT Raleigh is not dead during the weekends, but I would go as far as saying that there is plenty of retail... just not the kind that will attract people from North Raleigh, where good shopping destinations are plenty. We need some unique stores downtown and I am sure this will be the next phase of revitalization. Like cophead said, some people expect results right away :ohno: My guess is, we won't see anything major until after 2012. If some people wish to be pessimistic, that is fine with me. The rest of us will remain upbeat and realistic.

The Raleigh Downtowner did an interview with David Diaz, of the DRA, that was included in it's latest issue. One of the most interesting responses that he gave was when he was asked about his long-term goals/aspirations for DT. His response was "a bigger skyline than what we have now, and that's in addition to what's already been announced..." He is clearly focused on developing Raleigh's skyline.

What I find most interesting about his statements is the fact that he clearly gets it. He understands what it will take for DT and the city as a whole to move to the next level, in terms of retail and urban living, that most of us are looking for. I definitely recommend picking up a copy and reading the article for yourself. It gives great insight into the current thinking of our city leaders and the direction that Raleigh will head in the future.

Picked up a copy as soon as it came out, but didn't read it :( Certainly, I am happy to hear Diaz talking about the skyline, as it is the most dynamic part, at least as far as image goes. A combination of increased pedestrian activity after business hours and during the weekends, in combination with a nice skyline, could change a lot of perceptions. Between the City Council, the Planning Dept and DRA, some good ideas should get implemented.

There is a ton of excitement when it comes to downtown and for a good reason :okay:

Sine this is SKYSCRAPERcity, I'm sure we all love a good skyline. However, I think that developing a good skyline is only one aspect that a good downtown needs and it will take a VERY long time to develop a truely iconic skyline that visitors will remember and recognize.

Until then, I believe the street life should be the number one priority. Focus should be on:

bringing more visitors downtown
renovating old buildings and filling empty store fronts
connecting the different areas of downtown with well planned transportation
promote the events downtown, so much goes on that Raleighites do not know about
public art and gathering spaces

I'm not sure how much influence Mr. Diaz has on building designs, my guess is close to none, but he and his crew should be right in there, encouraging developers to build pedestrian friendly buildings with on street retail and well-planned parking or deck entrances.

I strongly believe that if you get all this going, with lots of Raleighites backing downtown and a rising population, we will see more originality and a high "wow-factor" being put into our future high-rises.

You said it pretty well. We need BOTH pedestrian friendliness and a skyline that reflects the city's population and image. DRA and Diaz cannot influence design, but their role is critical in putting a vision in place. Not guidelines, just a vision. If developers respect that vision, then the city will assist them even more in bringing their project(s) to fruition, otherwise back to the drawing board and more delays. The 5-in-5 initiative was absolutely a great start for DT Raleigh. Now it is time for a 10-in-10 plan (10 things in 10 years) which will address pedestrian activity & friendliness, faster review/approval process, major business/corporate recruitments and subsequently a bigger skyline.

Of course, most of us, if not all, agree on the points cophead mentioned. I want to comment on one item, though: promotion. Recently, I have met several people who don't live, work, or play in downtown and they mentioned to me about the new high-rise developments and how excited they are about them. I think that once the skyline gets some boost, downtown will be more visible and more attractive to people who see it from afar. Naturally, more promotion will be needed. To me, it is important to connect downtown with Crabtree Valley, North Hills, Brier Creek and Triangle Town Center. By "connect", I mean promotional material found in the aforementioned areas. Someone walks into a mall and sees a huge ad on DT Raleigh... That might help a little, particularly when it comes to cultural events and entertainment.

Since today is Halloween, my favorite day of the year, I must say that I am looking forward to seeing Fayetteville Street accommodate a huge Halloween party, much like Chapel Hill, with Franklin Street. Jaycees host their haunted house at the 111 Seaboard location, but I wish there was something in The Warehouse District, as well. Clayton Fear Farm is great, and about 20-25 minutes from downtown, but I want something closer... Make sure y'all take some photos of your yard decorations and other Halloween events in your area ;)

HAPPY HALLOWEEN!!!

Raleigh-NC, Tonight's going to be the first annual Haunted Hillsborough Hike across from NC State (between the Belltower and East Village/Dan Allen Dr.).

Speaking of State, With the addition of Jordan II Hall, there's been a new view established from the stairwell windows closest to downtown. If I had a better camera (than my camera phone), I'd take a picture and post it. Perhaps Raleigh-NC or Flash can get up here one day. It's quite a sight, better than my old rooftop images from Jordan I.

I picked up a copy of Wake Living last week end. It has a nice article about down town Raleigh and its future.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b287/Wlangston1/wlangston1/wl_cov_large.jpg

^^
Wow, did that magazine make it all the way to Charlotte? I don't miss a copy of this publication and I must admit they have been very good with promoting downtown lately :okay: North Carolina Signature is another good publication and covers the entire state.

Raleigh-NC, Tonight's going to be the first annual Haunted Hillsborough Hike across from NC State (between the Belltower and East Village/Dan Allen Dr.).
I heard about it and I was happy to see that someone is trying to revitalize Hillsborough Str with a real event and not just streetscapes. I cannot believe that Raleigh doesn't have a single, centralized Halloween event and I hope to see more in the future. Since I had to work on my own haunted house, I couldn't attend, but I heard it was o.k. for the second time, if I am not mistaken.

Speaking of State, With the addition of Jordan II Hall, there's been a new view established from the stairwell windows closest to downtown. If I had a better camera (than my camera phone), I'd take a picture and post it. Perhaps Raleigh-NC or Flash can get up here one day. It's quite a sight, better than my old rooftop images from Jordan I.
Is there an easy access for non-students/staff? Any suggestions? I assume someone can't just walk there and take photos...

I picked up the copy in Cary last Sunday. No I never have see a copy on a stand in Charlotte.

Oh, you visited our area... Sorry for the wrong assumption :)

Over visiting family.

Raleigh has activity only its on Glenwood avenue and not Fayetteville street. Even weeknights. Mostly crackheads down there but I do see many couples going for stroll's and the occasional lone walker.

Yes, the real activity is in Glenwood South, but Fayetteville Street these days is a far cry from its old self. Can't say I have seen any crackheads on Fayeteville Street, though, nor I think people can express discomfort with the street's safety levels. Much will change when RBC Plaza and Site One are finished, but redevelopments along the 100 and 200 blocks are needed. While doubtful, I would love to see the envisioned residential midrise behing Fayetteville Street Tavern and the addition of residential condominiums above Alexander Square (the parking deck). Without such redevelopments, it will be hard for Fayetteville Street to become as lively, let alone attract entertainment destinations. In all honesty, Glenwood South has a comfortable lead over any other downtown district and I do not see this change any time soon.

Well whenever I ride my bike down there I have encountered a few. The kind of riding I do you kinda stay at one spot at a while though, however Im not saying that I fear for my safety at night on Fayetteville street at night though. :lol:

I remember I went to cookout on New Bern Ave. one night in my car though and I got swamped by them. :lol:

New Bern Ave is not exactly a place I would call desirable. There is some improvement in that area, but not much. I am not suggesting it is a dangerous place, but I have no reason to go there outside passing through. If it makes you feel better, I have been approached by homeless people before - don't know if they were crackheads - and by keeping my cool and confidence I never felt threatened. Here is a nice trick next time you spot one of them coming your way: Walk towards him and ask for money. I am sure he will be caught by surprise :lol:

New Bern Ave is not exactly a place I would call desirable. There is some improvement in that area, but not much. I am not suggesting it is a dangerous place, but I have no reason to go there outside passing through. If it makes you feel better, I have been approached by homeless people before - don't know if they were crackheads - and by keeping my cool and confidence I never felt threatened. Here is a nice trick next time you spot one of them coming your way: Walk towards him and ask for money. I am sure he will be caught by surprise :lol:I speak as someone who is very familar with southeast Raleigh, your comments are more inline with the norm for this area but I will add more to it, yes there are some crackheads in that area but most are MENTAL HEALTH, notice I didn't say patient, that's because the county of Wake has dropped the ball when it comes to helping these sick people, and you have to receive treatment in order to be called a patient. When I use to work for local Law enforcement in Wake county most of the folks who we thought wore Cracked out turned out to be Mental Health and it was sad that I had to take people to jail in order for them to get the proper healthcare when it came to mental health and other health related issue this is a issue that is close to me because Southeast Raleigh is the place that is the dumping grounds for these folks and alot of other crap that nobody talks about, but knows about. The problem is about to become WORST! When DIX shut's it's doors. I'm not saying give people a handout but let's lend them a helping hand Mental health is a big problem and one of those problem's nobody talks about, until one of these guys hurts somebody or even commit's murders or some other crime and then it's all blown up and to late! What I'm trying to say it's cheaper and better to invest in prevention and early treatment something Wake County is Dragging it's feet on.

Seeing how Raleigh-NC can't take update pictures, maybe he could get the crackheads down there too. :lol:

^^
Here are a few crackheads for you:

http://news.nhs-info.com/strangenotes/data/upimages/crackhead2.jpg http://www.dbmax.co.uk/crackhead2head.jpg

RALBOI, I think you touched a very sensitive topic, and I agree with what you said, so I will leave it there ;) Hopefully, both Wake County and the state government will work on a smart solution and not wait until things get worse.

^^What's wrong with her eyes. It's a she right? :rofl:

It was a "she", before she started doing crack ;)

Raleigh those pictures are absolutely repulsive. Please take them down and replace them with http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k306/emutiny/chapelle.jpg.

^^Hi emutiny. ;) Remember me?

Raleigh those pictures are absolutely repulsive. Please take them down and replace them with http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k306/emutiny/chapelle.jpg.
That is the real deal, I admit :rofl:

Where are our new skyscrapers? Come one developers, propose a supertall :bash: Don't make me sound like g-man :lol:

Slow news day, so let me share something interesting (courtesy of Triangle Business Journal):

Cherokee HQ wins state's first platinum LEED certification (http://triangle.bizjournals.com/triangle/stories/2007/11/05/daily10.html)
Triangle Business Journal

Cherokee Investment Partners' new headquarters in downtown Raleigh has become the first building in North Carolina to gain platinum certification under the U.S. Green Building Council's Leadership in Energy and Environmental Design rating system.

Cherokee said Monday that its renovation of the former Heilig-Levine furniture warehouse is one of only 61 projects worldwide to receive platinum certification. The building also is the first LEED-certified project in Raleigh.

Tise-Kiester Architects, Empire Hardhat Construction, Carter & Burgess and Thompson Consulting helped to rehabilitate the 100-year-old warehouse, Cherokee said.

The new Cherokee headquarters incorporates a number of features that reduce energy use in the structure by 25 percent and water use by 45 percent - compared to traditional buildings. Those features include a highly reflective roof, energy-efficient lighting systems and office equipment, and water-saving items such as waterless urinals.

Cherokee manages a group of investment funds that specialize in cleaning up and redeveloping environmentally polluted real estate.

"As a company that is deeply committed to environmental responsibility, sustainability and urban revitalization, it is important that we were able to set an example with our own corporate headquarters," said Thomas F. Darden, Cherokee's CEO.
From the way the way the article sounds, this project proved to be a great way to revitalize an older building, without sacrificing its charm. For those not familiar, this is an older photo of the building, during the early stages of the renovation.

http://www.pbase.com/raleighmsa/image/58271739.jpg

^^good article RNC. Now here's a more current pic of helig-levine.

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r173/cophead567/ralcon%20blog/wt/IMG_0861.jpg

Thanks for the updated photo, cophead :okay: I need to go out there and give some love to the low-rise buildings in DT Raleigh :lol: Most of my photos have ignored that side of downtown.

^^R-NC, you're an anti-sem-height...

^^ :lol:

What can I say? I like my buildings tall and nice :)

Is it just me, or is that top "completed" floor look to be a transition floor? Seems taller than the previous floors, and it's taken almost two weeks to get to the next floor.
http://webcam.highwoods.com/netcam/rbc/cam1/job1/job1-2007-1111-07.JPG

I believe that is the transition floor. However, if you really want to analyze this you can go to the other webcam (http://webcam.rbcplaza.com/) and count. The taller floor you are talking about is the 21st floor (remember to skip the 13th and near the elevator you can see floors labeled) but if you look at the building diagram the 21st floor is the last office floor and the 22nd should be the transition floor.

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r173/cophead567/ralcon%20blog/rbcbuilding.jpg

Perhaps RBC Plaza lost a single office floor. It would make sense that they are working on a very thick floor now, since this has to have a pool on it. Just my guess and in depth analysis. Thoughts?

cophead, I think you are correct, although I must clarify that RBC Plaza didn't lose any [office] floors. Due to the angle of the parking deck ramps, the count may seem different from the West and the East. The tall floor we see is indeed the transitional floor and I was surprised to notice the slow progress, but given the fact they will place a swimming pool right above it, I expected them to take a little more time to ensure nothing goes wrong if a leak occurs :) I am sure it is more than leaks they need to worry when it comes to transitional floors.

The parking deck ramps do make it a little tough to count floors, but i'm not counting. The floors are labeled.

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r173/cophead567/rbc20floor.jpg

You can see floor 20 labeled right there in the corner. So my question, and roguejam's, is the taller floor office or transition? I'm thinking now that it is an office floor, so Raleigh-NC you are correct, my mistake. I think the diagram is throwing me off because the transfer floor is being worked on now. I'm sure this will have the pool and other utilities in it, just a guess as i am not in the skyscraper building industry (just like to look at them :))

The next floor to be built, from what i can tell, should be the 23rd. This will be narrower from the rest of the building with condos and the pool. no idea if it will have like a pool lobby? gym? lockers? you know, all the condo amenities stuff. anyone know?

What they appear to be forming now is the 23rd floor and plaza level slab. This has the pool in it. It looks as if they decided to make the top office floor taller for higher ceiling heights in the executive offices and boardroom. And, the transition floor, the 22nd floor is shorter.

I believe that the 22nd floor (23rd, if you don't count the 13th) will have a mix of uses, including condos. At least this is what the rendering shows. I am anxious to see how thinner the residential portion will look when compared to the rest of the building.

One thing I mentioned before, and I wonder if this pattern continues in the future: rooftop swimming pools. While RBC Plaza's pool may not be at the very top, it is still an attractive feature that will be 22 floors above the ground. In addition, we'll have Lafayette, West At North and Site One's two towers having rooftop pools. This is really exciting!!! Personally, I like the idea of Lafayette's martini bar at the top, open to the public. I can see a ton of people being lined up to enjoy a nice glass of martini, with a nice view of the skyline. By then, Site One will be done, too.

Cophead - you should do an update on the rooftop pools on your website.

Another interesting fact that I saw in the Metro mag regarding the Lafayette was that it would have a glass elevator leading up to it's rooftop, which should provide stunning views at night as you take a ride up.

I did add 'The Hue' pool to my list (http://www.dtraleigh.com/2007/06/leisure-aquatic-features-coming-to.html) of downtown 'wetlands'. I was not aware that site one would have pools on top also, good stuff. :cool:

To the best of my knowledge, Site One will have a rooftop pool on at least one of the towers, but I must double check, just in case. I wonder if Winston Hotel will also have one :)

No update pics? Bummer. :(

Sorry, g-man :( I took the photos, started processing them, but ran out of hard disk space and had to get another drive. Messed up a few things along the way, but my system is up and running now - I am not talking about the one at work, of course. I am also working on the new version of my website, which I hope to make more interesting, more informative and easier to navigate. I know I am pretty slow these days, but there are a million things I need to do in preparation of Raleigh-NC Jr's arrival :lol:

The Depot & the Warehouse District
So let's talk a little. These days, journalists try to impress us with all sorts of big, fat titles that spell doom and gloom. Let's check out a couple of articles that demonstrate just that, in my opinion:

Warehouse district's prospects dim (http://www.newsobserver.com/business/story/771985.html)
Depot Derailed as Nightclubs Close (http://wral.com/news/local/story/2036890)

Call me an optimist. Call me disillusioned. Whatever you call me - keep your insults to a civilized level, please - please explain to me how the prospects of the Warehouse District can be dim with the loss of the clubs mentioned in the reports. For those not familiar, the Warehouse District was "declared" as one of Raleigh's prime entertainment districts back in the 90's, when city leaders realized that we can't have a downtown renaissance without bringing people to downtown first. Since the city leaders turned their focus to Glenwood South, the Warehouse District played second fiddle, but remained a destination.

Today, there are several entertainment venues, catering to most people, IMHO. What the Warehouse District lacks is residents. Outside the Martin Street condos, Park Devereux and The Dawson, there is nothing else within a short walking distance. Sure, the Hue is coming, and so does The Hillsborough, the CAM residential midrise and several other projects, but right now we lack the residential mass to feed the businesses in that area with the clientèle they need to remain operational for longer periods. This has been the case for a while now, so how can we say the "prospects dim"? The prospects are just as good as back in the early days. All we need is residents, and they are coming. Difficult times due to the growing competition? Yes!!! Does that mean that the prospects dim? I don't think so.

In case you wonder, I am exclusively reacting to the N&O article's title, not as much on the content of the reports, which I think they are informative. Also, I must agree with what mayor Meeker said in his interview to WRAL:
“We have about 160 restaurants and clubs. So having two or three of them close down isn't that big of a deal overall,” Raleigh Mayor Charles Meeker said.
Of course, these places became destinations to many people, but they arrived fast and all at the same time. I think that the owner should have started slow, with one club, and then progress to adding more. I understand the concept: Build several bars/clubs and let the people go from one to the other, at the same night. Well, this would work in certain cities, with established population and a more urban fabric. Hopefully, these clubs will re-open at one point in time, or the available space will be leased soon. If I had the money, I would open a Classic Rock/Heavy Metal Pub, to satisfy my own taste in music, but this is neither the time, nor the place to discuss my illusions :lol:

Let me offer a less gloomy picture by stating the real prospects of the Warehouse District. The projects I mentioned are not all located within the Warehouse District, but they will contribute to this area's prosperity:

The Hillsborough.
Winston Tower.
The Hue.
The York Properties midrise.
One Glenwood.
Bloomsbury Estates I and II.
CAM (residential portion).
L Building.
Convention Center & Marriott Hotel.
Clarence Lightner Public Safety Center.
The re-opening of the former Warehouse club - potential tower on that site.
Campbell School of Law.

I am sure I missed something, so feel free to add to the list above. What is your opinion? Suggestions on making the Warehouse District as dominant and vibrant as Glenwood South? Any parallels to Portland's Pearl District?

^^There's going to be a penguin Jr? :eek: Don't practice feeding using my fish ok? ;) :lol:

Baby will need food... Whatever he'll need, he'll get. Can't promise that your fish will be safe. Just avoid stealing any of our high-rises and/or bars/clubs, and you may increase your fish's chances to survive :lol:

^^Feed your baby a frog instead. Right Cityboi? ;)

I sort of see it as just 1 bar closing down, all 3 came in at the same time under the same owner and all 3 left at the same time. In no way do I blame the warehouse district for the 'Davis-trio' of bars closing down. I really think there is something behind the scenes that we are not aware of. This all just feels odd, closing down in this fashion not even 2 months after opening. :dunno:

The warehouse district is different compared to glenwood south and fayetteville st., you have a grid layout versus a single street. The way I see it now is that Glenwood is creating a tunnel straight down the street, taller structures are going up on both sides and the prime location for a business is right on in the middle. Nothing is spread out, retail next to retail next to retail for about 6 or 7 blocks, and its easy to get to. If someone asks me where is a good place to eat, drink, shop (future hopefully), I can simply say "park near glenwood and go for a walk."

Fayetteville St. has this affect also but this is even simpler. All our significant towers line both sides and can be seen from far away. The revitilization and view between the capitol and memorial auditorium makes Fayetteville St. obviously look like something is special about this street. I still remember my brother's reaction when i took him downtown to show him around for the first time. We parked on salisbury and walked over to F street and he simpy goes "wooh". If you are seeing it for the first time, it is obvious for most people that this street has something going on. This should be another lively retail center, again along a "tunnel-like" street.

The warehouse district is different however. It is a lonely island in the center of a dead-zone. This is changing however. East across Dawson St. has nothing until you get to Fayetteville St. and Nash square does not quite provide as much entertainment as Moore square does East of Fayetteville St. It is a pretty quiet walk if you walk North along West or Harrington St., a couple places here and there but no real eye candy. The area is terribly lit and feels unsafe compared to a well lit F street and glenwood. The bars and restaurants are also in old warehouses (a cool thing) but hard to find. For example, Mosquito has no windows, except in the back but they overlook a parking lot, and is literally a random door in a narrow side road. Sin City, or whatever it is now, and the Office are at dead ends, making parking abysmal. Do not forget about the fact that a railroad track cuts it all off to the west and there are no parking decks. Ever walked through that area during the day? ghosttown, there is no traffic passing through and no pedestrian activity. The CAM may change this and hopefully some more residential.

It seems that it is still early for the warehouse district and I will not be surprised if we see more 'struggles at the depot' headlines in the newspaper in the next few years, but things are looking up. I think the covention center, the L building, and the hue are the first projects that are making its way toward that area. I'm also glad developers are not knocking down warehouses for new projects as there is such a good oppurtunity to create a vibrant, artistic district in that area.

BTW, Raleigh-NC heavy metal pub? I support :cheers:

The Warehouse district will be just fine. Those bars down there were absolutely terrible and wouldn't make it in any city I know of. There look to be issues we may not be aware of--but those bars were dated and just goofy. The Pit will be a cool place down there when it starts up at the end of the month, and I see a bright future when considering CAM, Hue, etc.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, guys. I think we are on the same page.

cophead, your comments made me think a little more - great input, by the way. Here is some additional comments:
The Warehouse District has a very unique feel when compared to the CBD, Glenwood South and City Market. This uniqueness can be the biggest asset for this area and must be explored.
Close proximity to the future Intermodal station is a big plus.
The layout of the area is in fact similar to Glenwood South's, but the uses are different. As stated by cophead, the Warehouse District doesn't depend on one street for image, unlike the CBD and Glenwood South.
As new developments at the edges of the Warehouse District and Glenwood South - specifically along Hillsborough Str - increase, what are the chances of treating the two areas as one? The Warehouse District lacks useful retail - useful to most people, that is - but with new developments coming, the chances of getting some retail are good. Entertainment destinations are scattered, which is great for an area that needs more residential infills. I assume it is harder to remove businesses from an "underdeveloped" building in order to build something else.
As time goes by, it will make more sense for land owners to sell some of the low-rises and redevelop with density in mind. Luckily, the Warehouse District has several opportunities for redevelopment, without hurting the existing businesses. I do not advocate tearing down the cool buildings, but merely some eyesores. There are a few underutilized lots that could attract a few high-rise developments.

Earlier I brought up Portland's Pearl District. While most of us here know about it, let me share some photos (web finds) and encourage you to picture the Warehouse District if similar developments appear in the future:

http://www.hoytstreetproperties.com/images/pearl_aerial1.jpg

http://www.hoytstreetproperties.com/images/streetcar_by_starbucks.jpg

http://www.cooltownstudios.com/images/portland-pearldistrict.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1201/830759909_efdf02d306.jpg

http://www.lightrailnow.org/images/por-lrt-stc-pearl-district-redevelopment-br_lrn.jpg

http://www.railwaypreservation.com/vintagetrolley/Portland_LRT_historic_district_1_sm.JPG

All right, maybe the Warehouse District could become a "subset" of Pearl District, but I think it is feasible to blend older warehouses and newer mid-rises (why not high-rises, too?), without ruining the uniqueness of this area.

That pearl district looks pretty nice. I've been wanting to do a northwest lurk for a while with a stop in Portland.

As you mentioned, the combination of demolishing some eyesore buildings and surface parking lots creates plenty of room for some towers. The residential component within walking distance south of the warehouse district is almost non-existent. That all may change in the future and then the warehouse district will take off.

Including this area in a downtown trolley or some kind of DT transit looks to be a little difficult because of its location; having the train tracks on one side this may be a challenge in the near future as well. I'm almost expecting the downtown trolley to add more service this time next year with the convention center, I hope I'm right. Should it include the depot or stick to the Fayetteville/Hillsborough/Glenwood route?

A light rail line would be a challenge, but a trolley should be more feasible in DT Raleigh. As you said, there are challenges, due to the tracks, but I am sure the city can find alternative routes. Of course, the existing "trolley" service could be a nice start. The Depot should definitely be a stop.

You guys don't use the bus system Raleigh has, so why would you use a light-rail one?

We don't use the bus system here because it is nearly useless to 99% of the residents. The same will happen if a light rail system becomes just as inconvenient. At least light rail is fun ;) Seriously, though, a light rail system can create opportunities for infill projects along its path. Bus routes can change easily, therefore a developer would think twice before making an investment. Light rail lines are far more "stable" and inspire more investments.

We don't use the bus system here because it is nearly useless to 99% of the residents. The same will happen if a light rail system becomes just as inconvenient. At least light rail is fun ;) Seriously, though, a light rail system can create opportunities for infill projects along its path. Bus routes can change easily, therefore a developer would think twice before making an investment. Light rail lines are far more "stable" and inspire more investments.

This is why i'm glad to live in the Clemson area. CAT bus sytem is the largest fare-free bus sytem in the nation. BRT routes don't change especially if they have their own right of way.

The Warehouse district will be significant years down the road. Most of the buildings as far as I know are worthless. I see development expanding more into the warehouse district in the future and not moving east much more. The area clearly lacks connectivity and visibility which really hurts its prospects atm.

Baby will need food... Whatever he'll need, he'll get. Can't promise that your fish will be safe. Just avoid stealing any of our high-rises and/or bars/clubs, and you may increase your fish's chances to survive :lol:

:hilarious

^^Feed your baby a frog instead. Right Cityboi? ;)

You 2 crack me up :lol:

BTW, Raleigh is looking great and taking off:cheers:
Need to get over there sometime; have not been over there in a while.

^^
We certainly try to be more pleasant, although some forumers find that annoying :( I think that's better than arguing and attacking each other's city, like we see happening in many threads. Mostly, it is the result of uneventful days :lol:

If you visit Raleigh, please keep in mind that downtown is a work in progress. Give us another 2-4 years and we'll be in a much better shape. Of course, nobody limits you from visiting every now and then, but I assume it will be great if you visit downtown during the new convention center/hotel opening celebrations - I assume there will be Raleigh Wide Open - Part III :)

^^
We certainly try to be more pleasant, although some forumers find that annoying :( I think that's better than arguing and attacking each other's city, like we see happening in many threads. Mostly, it is the result of uneventful days :lol:


Most of the forumers that find it annoying are moderators from UP. Example would be cosmoboy. :wallbash:

My head hurts now after all of that wall bashing. :lol:

You might have seen it already, but here is a link to the Map of Downtown Developments (http://www.raleighnc.gov/portal/server.pt/gateway/PTARGS_0_2_306_203_0_43/http%3B/pt03/DIG_Web_Content/project/public/livable_streets/dev-projects_flyer-standard.pdf). The Site One rendering is outdated. Also, The Hillsborough rendering is the 27-story version, not the latest one, so don't get very excited :lol:

I decided to make my way to downtown this Thanksgiving Break. Here are some observations, unfortunately without photos:

-- West at North is pretty far along. Framing is taking place on the upper floors. I don't know if it has topped off, but it shouldn't be too long until that happens. It really makes a presence coming down Glenwood before the actual Glenwood South.

-- 222 Glenwood is starting to have brick placed along the exterior. Driving along Glenwood, the building is huge, and I mean huge.

-- Bloomsbury 1 is really coming along. This is one project that I completely forgot about, but heading towards Boylan Heights, there is no way to forget the building. The pseudo-Victorian architecture is actually growing on me as well. It probably has one of the best locations to view downtown.

-- The building where the Hillsborough (Reynolds) is going is being demo'ed, if not completely taken care of by now.

-- RBC Plaza is about the same height as Progress 1, with the glass facade catching up to the height of the building so far.

-- Marriott and the convention center are nearing their respective completions, even if it seems like a snails pace. The convention center is a beautiful building, and even though the Marriott is an ugly design, it is a much needed addition.

-- Quorum Center, though completed already, is probably one of my top five buildings downtown. It is just a classy modern design and the effect it has had on the area is astounding.


Other than those few observations, downtown was pretty busy for a Saturday. People were out and enjoying a nice Fall day. A few questions though. 1) What is holding up the Lafayette? With the convention center coming on board in a little less than a year, where are all the convention goers going to stay to show downtown off? 2)Is the phase II of Fayetteville St. supposed to be done by the opening of the convention center? If so, shouldn't they be working on that by now, esp. since the site 1 deck is getting started? 3) What has happened to Glenwood south projects 630 North St., the Glen on Peace, and Boylan Flats? Have they been pushed to the backburner or have they fallen apart?

^^Enjoyed your comments. There used to be a gentleman on this thread that frequently posted photographs updating construction progress. I do not know what happened to him - ran out of energy, film or the country I guess.:)
I am not disappointed that the Glen and Boylan Flats have not been constructed, but I am anxious to see work begin on the Lafayette. It is in a critical location for the continued development of Raleigh; and from the rendering, it appears to be one of the better designs proposed for downtown.

I agree with your comments on the Quorum Center, Bloomsbury, and the Marriott. The Marriott is really disappointing. The single level building(s) facing Salisbury do not seem to have any relation to the tower portion of the building; and looking at the web cam, the brown cladding looks drab. I guess I should wait until the building is complete before expressing negative feelings, The final product may look great, hope so.

Where did Raleigh-NC go? Did he die? :dunno:

No, I am not dead, but yesterday I became a proud father of nice boy, who decided to arrive about 2.5 weeks earlier :) I came home for a little bit to check out the house and the cats, as well as the news, but I'll be heading back to the hospital, soon. Anyway, I am sorry about the photos, but even though I have the entire collection almost ready, I will need to do some uploading, which these days seems to be secondary in importance.

Lafayette will begin construction sometime in 2008-2009, due to some cleaning up that the city has to do on the site, first. Also, they increased the size by one floor, to 22 (I assume they include the 13th floor in the count). Fayetteville Street, Phase II, will be completed for the 2008 opening of the new convention center and work should begin soon, although I am not sure when we should expect it to finish. It is not similar in size with the reopening of 100-400 blocks and should take less time. As for the rest of the projects, they are all active. Boylan Flats was reduced in size, from 8 to 5 floors and sales for the other two projects are a bit slow. Nothing is stalled as far as I know.

Congratulations to you and your wife on the arrival of your son. Your life will take on a new purpose, and it will be most rewarding.

congratulations Raleigh-NC!

God bless your new born baby and your family too Raleigh-NC :happy:

Just don't let him eat my fish.

Congratulations Raleigh-NC you get a boy and I get a daughter-in-law.

^^I didn't know you two were related. :lol:

Thanks, y'all!!! Yes, life is going to change a lot for me, but I won't quit posting, I promise. Hopefully, I will learn to be more organized and post photos when I am supposed to :lol:

CLTNC, congratulations to you, as well!!! Did I read correctly at another thread about you already having a grandchild? Wow, that is impressive!!!

No, I am not dead, but yesterday I became a proud father of nice boy, who decided to arrive about 2.5 weeks earlier :)

Congrats, proud dad! :banana:

congrats Ral_NC!!

Why is everybody congratulating Raleigh? Did they finally get a light rail system up there? Maybe a new highrise. :dunno: :lol:

congrats, raleigh-nc. :)

CONGRATULATIONS!!!

I still don't know what the congratulations are for. :dunno: Did a new highrise get announced?

Yes she is now 6 months old. My son married a Philadelphia lawyer on November 17.
Raleigh-NC how is the mother and son doing? Now you will have a fishing buddy.

^^Hey, wait a minute. I heard fishing buddy. :lol:

Congratulations Raleigh-NC!! You and your wife will soon realize how much your life has just improved.

Guys, I have no way of thanking you enough for your kind words. Mom and son are doing very well, although lack of sleep is the big thing for us these days. The birth, itself, went well. I was in the delivery room and saw EVERYTHING, and let me tell you this: I have a lot more respect for what our mothers went through to give birth to us. Certainly I have a lot more appreciation for my wife.

Now, if we can get some sleep it will be nice. Maybe g-man knows a few things about staying up all night - I know he does because he spends all day taking photos and all night processing them :rofl: That damn fish of g-man's will be dead in the water when my son grows older ;)

Sorry for causing a distraction from the topic, but these days there is not much to report from DT Raleigh, unless I am missing something. However, I wish there was a major hospital located downtown, in a nice 15-20 story tower :) It would have been great for downtown's economy. Along with one more college/university (something with at least 10,000 students), a hospital could be a nice addition.

Raleigh-NC move to Charlotte. CMC and Presbyterian are in the uptown area of Charlotte. In a few years we will have trolley service from uptown to Presbyterian Hospital.

Sorry, CLTNC, but I really like it here :lol: Funny thing is, I was born in Mt Sinai Hospital, in NYC... As urban as it gets. Of course, Raleigh has Rex Hospital, Duke Health System Hospital and Wake Med within 5-10 minutes from downtown, and connectivity may not be an issue in the future, but I would love to see something within downtown boundaries.

BTW, congrats on the new light rail... It is a great addition to the Queen City :okay: That is exactly what Raleigh needs to connect its downtown area with the rest of the city.

Well when I lived in Raleigh, I would not have moved to Charlotte. But living in Texas, Charlotte did not look too bad.

CATS is now planning to start on the NE Line. Money for engineering is being applied for now.

Yes, Charlotte has made major progress in the public transportation area. Hopefully, we'll see something great happening here, too. If TTA had done the job right, years ago, we would have gotten a nice regional rail system early, but... Charlotte is a great place, though and I would not mind moving there, but it would take something BIG to get me out of Raleigh :lol:

^^Maybe they'll build a light rail line in Greensonolina too. :hug:

^^Maybe they'll build a light rail line in Greensonolina too. :hug:

Greensonolina?????????????????

Is that Greensboro? But with a Metrolina added? I thought that only Charlotte added that? :nuts:

g-man is begging for more news, but we'll disappoint him :rofl:

I'd also like to say, "Congratulations, Raleigh-NC!"

^^
Thanks, StevenW :)

Yesterday, I made some time to go around and take photos, which I hope this time to share with you. Lots of visible progress. The exterior of Bloomsbury Estates 1 is being added and looks nice. The same for 222 Glenwood. West At North has topped out and there is major progress in the exterior, as well. The parking deck at Block B is under way and there seems to be some progress in Site 1, too. The Hue and 712 Tucker Street are also under way. As for the RBC Plaza, I was hoping to see it approaching 25 floors a little faster, but I am happy with the progress, anyway. Let's see if I manage to process my photos and post them this time :)

^^What's going across the street from the RBC building going up? Noticed there was a red boom crane on site.

^^ That is the parking deck on Block B that Raleigh-NC referred to.

^^Ahh...ok. Thanks. :)

Block B is the development that will separate the two Edison towers, which will stand 38 and 24 floors, or ~525ft and 410ft respectively. Block B is a separate project from the Edison and will include some retail on the East and West side of the block. The parking deck will be 8 stories high, if I am correct. In the past, we referred to the whole development as Block B, Progress Energy III and Progress Plaza North, in case you are confused with all the naming conventions.

^^Damn. I thought it was going to be pics too. :(

Raleigh-NC -> Congrats on the baby. My wife and I had a baby girl a month ago.

Here's the first hint I will tell you: Let the baby sleep at night. All the nurses and doctors told us to wake our daughter up every 3 hours for a feeding. Disregard this. The baby will grow fine, and your sanity will remain intact with better sleep.

Block B is the development that will separate the two Edison towers, which will stand 38 and 24 floors, or ~525ft and 410ft respectively.

You know I love you and I don't mean to be anal but, I thought we were looking at roughly 470ft and 410ft respectfully?:dunno:

^^ If memory serves me correctly, the taller building was initially projected to be 34 floors and then changed to 38 floors. I believe 525 ft is the correct number for 38 floors. Raleigh-NC probably can clarify the numbers if this info is wrong.

Don't want to steal Flash's thunder, but his webpage has new images of Two Hanover Square's new BB&T sign.
http://raleighskyline.com/content/2007/12/03/the-new-larger-bbt-sign/

http://raleighskyline.com/images/12.03.07/raleighskyline.com_new_bb_t_sign_04.jpg
Today's Skyline

haha so i'm not crazy - I thought something looked different about that thing.

^^ Also appears that the crane has departed the scene at the Marriott site. It is going to be interesting to see what architectural impression (if any) a completed Marriott will make on the general public.

haha so i'm not crazy - I thought something looked different about that thing.
exactly what i was thinking. now if we can get them to light up the tower red when the canes win, two hannover will be set.

It's 9:00pm on Wednesday, and I'm watching from my window as they finish demolishing the existing 301 Hillsborough bldg. I estimate that it will be completely leveled by the end of the week. Exciting stuff.

How about some pics. ;)

Transplant, congratulations on your baby :) Your advice is on the money, as my wife and I have discovered ;)

DwntnRaleighGuy, let me confirm what South Street said: The developer walked into the approval process with a 34-story/470ft and a 24-story/410ft tower, but the plans had already changed, with no time to put together new plans. According to the "new" plans, the taller tower stands at 38 floors/~525ft tall, at least until the developer submits the final plans.

Transplant, congratulations on your baby :) Your advice is on the money, as my wife and I have discovered ;)

DwntnRaleighGuy, let me confirm what South Street said: The developer walked into the approval process with a 34-story/470ft and a 24-story/410ft tower, but the plans had already changed, with no time to put together new plans. According to the "new" plans, the taller tower stands at 38 floors/~525ft tall, at least until the developer submits the final plans.


Thank you for the explaination. I can't wait to see an update on these plans, or at least a rough draft? Again sorry to be a bother, but sometimes I just get over excited, just like a child! Thank you, Thank you, Thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nothing to be sorry about... We all are a bit anxious, but at the end we realize that good things take time and changes could happen overnight. Hopefully, we will see nothing smaller than what was initially proposed.

Today's N&O had a good article, titled Shopping next on agenda (http://www.newsobserver.com/business/story/820238.html), which focuses on retail in DT Raleigh. It is scary to read excerpts like this:
"People stop me on the street -- visitors -- saying, 'Where do I shop?' " Raleigh Planning Director Mitchell J. Silver said. "It's embarrassing. My biggest concern is that when the convention center opens, we have to tell them to get in a car."
However, we are aware of the situation and we are trying to fix it. On the other hand, it concerns me that the new convention center & hotel will open without significant retail on, and around, Fayetteville Street. I know there are cities that offer even less to their convention visitors, but we do not want to make this mistake when the center opens. Hopefully, this will change fast.

^^Those are pics? :goodnight

Today's N&O had a good article, titled Shopping next on agenda (http://www.newsobserver.com/business/story/820238.html), which focuses on retail in DT Raleigh. It is scary to read excerpts like this:

However, we are aware of the situation and we are trying to fix it. On the other hand, it concerns me that the new convention center & hotel will open without significant retail on, and around, Fayetteville Street. I know there are cities that offer even less to their convention visitors, but we do not want to make this mistake when the center opens. Hopefully, this will change fast.

I read this and feel the same way. What DT needs is someone (or a single company) to go out and sign retail (NOT a Food/Bar) tenants. Basically, a management company like malls have.

A solid mix is necessary and could be achieved. I know everyone wants local stores, but we also need big name stores to come in and take a chance. They have corporate parents who may be willing to lose money for a year or two to get a foothold in.

There aren't many large spaces open for retail, so folks like Saks & Belks (who would be living it up if they hadn't sold that building years ago) wouldn't work. But folks like Gap (and all their brands), Radio Shack, Kay Jeweler, Crate & barell, etc. could work out well.

It may take sweeteners to get companies to move downtown, and I'm all for them...within reason of course.

^^Those are pics? :goodnight

Today's N&O had a good article, titled Shopping next on agenda (http://www.newsobserver.com/business/story/820238.html), which focuses on retail in DT Raleigh. It is scary to read excerpts like this:

However, we are aware of the situation and we are trying to fix it. On the other hand, it concerns me that the new convention center & hotel will open without significant retail on, and around, Fayetteville Street. I know there are cities that offer even less to their convention visitors, but we do not want to make this mistake when the center opens. Hopefully, this will change fast.

Outside of a select few cities, most of which tend to generate a good bit of tourism already (i.e., Charleston), this seems to be a very common problem. Raleigh will have to tap into its strengths in order to overcome this.

congratulations on the new HQ!

congratulations on the new HQ!

Are you referring to this:

http://www.wral.com/business/local_tech_wire/news/story/2149761/

^^Pics? :D

Transplant, I am in a complete agreement with what you said :okay: We need all sorts of retail, with national and local retailers. If I had some backup money, I would rent several spots on Fayetteville Street and put various retail destinations, enough to satisfy different needs. This would take guts and deep pockets, but it is feasible. It is good to have eateries, but we need more retail, and not just along Fayetteville Street.

The move of Optimal's HQ to DT Raleigh is definitely the kind of relocations we should be pursuing. Sure, we are not talking about thousands of employees, but companies with hundreds of jobs are needed as well, to fill out the remaining space of taller high-rises. This is precisely the type of opportunity Highwoods Properties missed with their RBC Plaza. The latter simply has no space for future tenants; this tower could have been 40-50 floors tall if 2-3 more small-to-medium size companies were to relocate to DT Raleigh. Let's see if The Edison could lure Optimal ;)

g-man, settle down... Pics will come, eventually :lol:

^^When master? :bow: And why is there a spanish advertisement at the bottom of the page? :rant: :lol:

Quit hogging it all

Quit hogging it all

Save some for the squirrels. :rofl:

Are you referring to this:

http://www.wral.com/business/local_tech_wire/news/story/2149761/

Apparently Raleigh beat Austin and Silicon Valley for this HQ. This is a huge coup for downtown.

A couple more links to this story:

Raleigh may get 325 jobs (http://www.newsobserver.com/business/story/822693.html) (News & Observer)
Company picks Raleigh for HQ, 325 jobs (http://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/stories/2007/12/10/daily3.html?t=printable) (Triangle Business Journal)

The excerpt below (taken from the N&O article) is where you can read what ncnative mentioned - I put some other interesting parts on bold face. I definitely agree that this is a major deal for DT Raleigh and we cannot overlook the possibility of other similar moves in the future. While we need major corporations, we also need smaller companies, with hundreds of employees, to call DT Raleigh their home.
Optimal plans to lease 27,000 square feet to accommodate the first 105 employees. Company officials are optimistic about their prospects, saying they could expand to 500 jobs. Only 325 positions would be rewarded with financial incentives.

The company also considered moving to other technology hubs, including Austin, Texas, and the Silicon Valley in California.

"The talent pool was probably the biggest driver," said Lynette McInnes, Optimal's vice president of marketing. "The talent pool in Raleigh is unsurpassed."

Optimal's announcement is great news. I'm surprised that a tech company like this one is not moving to RTP. However, since they are a software dominant company the need for a sprawling campus may not be as essential and there is no need for large expensive labs, that setting up downtown would be incredibly difficult.

I already like the company while reading their website. (http://www.otii.com/) Right on the front they show that they are very "green" oriented. Moving downtown helps them keep that image.:)

Also, has all the office space in RBC been leased out?

I definitely agree that this is a major deal for DT Raleigh and we cannot overlook the possibility of other similar moves in the future. While we need major corporations, we also need smaller companies, with hundreds of employees, to call DT Raleigh their home.

This move is positive on so many levels, but to me one of the most important benefits is the increase in talent that this company will bring to the area. The more skilled and knowledgable workers we have in our pool, the easier it will be to attract the bigger fishes who need that kind of expertise.


This will also strengthen the demand downtown for homes, retail, and even improved transit. It puts us that much closer to getting that light rail and urban mall that we all dream about.

^^When master? :bow:
Right now!!! Well, it is only one photo, but this should calm you down for the next 5-10 minutes :lol:

http://www.pbase.com/raleighmsa/image/90206968.jpg

^^I can't see the RBC building. :bash: :lol: Also, that photo is old cause the crane for the Marriott isn't up anymore. :D

Wow!!! You noticed it :lol: The RBC Plaza building is the one to the left of BB&T, in the center. At that moment, RBC Plaza was 21-22 floors high, therefore the difference isn't that great from today. As for the crane, it is barely seen... Just pretend it is not there :lol:

I don't have any pics of it, but the BB&T Building got a new larger sign - it looks 100 times better than that tiny thing they had before - it looked like it belonged at a bank branch on glenwood avenue, not a 30 story building downtown.

Flash has put some photos with the new BB&T sign in his website: http://raleighskyline.com/content/2007/12/03/the-new-larger-bbt-sign/

Beautiful pics - it really does make a big difference. Now progress energy needs to up the size of the sign on the "fin" of progress 2.

That would be nice, but I doubt it. Since you mentioned Progress Energy, though, I am still anxious to see what the plans for the lot adjacent to One Progress Plaza will be after The Edison is built. First, it will bring additional income to Progress Energy, although I am not sure a few million dollars would make much difference to them. Second, it will fill the gap on Fayetteville Street, between One Progress Plaza and 333 Corporate Center. With the addition of the envisioned tower between Sheraton Hotel and Sir Walter Raleigh Apartments, it would create a nice high-rise cluster. The more I look at that lot, the more I think that a 50+ story tower would work very well.

Dream on Raleigh-NC... Dream on :lol:

I just visited Raleigh last week from Tampa, and was surprised at some of the changes to the downtown area. I see Fayetteville Street is open, and a couple of towers are being developed. I still wasn't horribly impressed with anything downtown had to offer. I do admit that I really liked the Glenwood South area and what it has become. Overall, Raleigh is one spread out area lacking density in key places...but its still a decent city. I wouldn't mind moving back there some day. You certainly get way more house for the money than in Tampa!

This is exactly what is happening... Many things will impress you if you visit DT Raleigh 5-6 years down the road, but there is nothing finished at this point in time to offer a complete experience. Working in downtown gives me an opportunity to get a feel of what is truly happening. Not just within a few days, but withing months and years. The changes are amazing, but I will not hold my breath. When EVERY single proposal gets built, then, I expect to be amazed at the changes. In a way, it is sad, but those of us who believe in Raleigh know it is worth the wait.

I have a better chance of seeing a highrise get built in downtown Greenville than Raleigh-NC posting update pics. :lol:

^^^Thats pretty bad there G-man. I dont think I can top that one.

Raleigh needs more high rollers to get those high rises.

Raleigh needs more high rollers to get those high rises.

There are plenty of highrises planned for Raleigh in the next few years. Other than the ones already under construction, I can think of 3 or 4 others that are planned.

Here's a quick picture of RBC Plaza. The condos are starting to go up.
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r173/cophead567/ralcon%20blog/IMG_1338.jpg

Thanks for the update! This project is really coming along :)

I've got some more pics actually from a recent downtown route. Here's Bloomsbury Estates.

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r173/cophead567/ralcon%20blog/BE/IMG_1325.jpg

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r173/cophead567/ralcon%20blog/BE/IMG_1339.jpg

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r173/cophead567/ralcon%20blog/BE/IMG_1328.jpg

Here is another picture of the skyline from the Boylan Ave. Bridge. This pic is huge so I did not embed it. make sure your browser adjusts it to fit in the window.

raleigh skyline wide pic (http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r173/cophead567/Raleigh%20Skyline/dec07skylinewide.jpg)

thanks cophead. I have always loved the Boylan Bridge angle because it shows the full extent of downtown, and now it shows all the progress of the Fayetteville St. corridor. Now, if only the Marriott could have been made all glass or totally redesigned, because that white crap is ugly. Can't wait to see Site 1, the Lafayette, and the Edison start building up because that is going to make this angle so much better.

I have a better chance of seeing a highrise get built in downtown Greenville than Raleigh-NC posting update pics. :lol:
Then pray I start posting photos soon, so you can get a few high-rises :lol: I like your sense of humor... sometimes, when you have not injected yourself with RedBull :poke:

cophead. Many thanks for sharing your photos with us. These days it feels as if I have missed one year of construction updates :( Every time I walk around downtown it feels as if something new is coming up. Bloomsbury Estates I is also coming along fine. Hopefully, the second building will break ground soon.

CLTNC, the high-rises I speak of will definitely happen. The "problem" is that we have a lot of low-profile developers who prefer not to make noise. Just to clarify the projects I am speaking of, here is a list:

The Edison
RBC Plaza
The Hillsborough
Winston Hotel
Site One
Lafayette
Clarence Lightner Public Safety Center
West At North
Marriott Hotel
Bloomsbury Estates I and II
222 Glenwood
The Hue
L Building
Tucker Street Commons
Blount Street Commons

There are some projects that are more speculations at this point, or simply slow moving/still on the planning stage (Winston Tower is a pretty much a certain thing, so I included it in the list above):

Sheraton/414 Fayetteville
One Glenwood
new N&O headquarters
New Contemporary Art Museum with a residential mid-rise next door
630 North
Site across Winston Tower
Site across 42nd Street Oyster Bar
Boylan Flats
Glen on Peace

Not all of these projects will contribute to the skyline, but a lot of good redevelopment/infill development will take place in the next few years. Most of the projects in the first list are under construction, or the sites are being prepared (i.e. Site One, The Edison). Now, keep in mind that there are other visions, which either have not become public, or will not hit the Planning Dept. until after 2010. From what I hear, the best is yet to come, but until we actually hear about them, I will stick with the above lists.

From what I hear, the best is yet to come, but until we actually hear about them, I will stick with the above lists.

Whoa!!!

I feel like a kid on X-mas eve!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :bow:

Don't want to over-hype the momentum... We are still a few years prior to the time when true skyscrapers will be proposed. For the moment, there is lots of real interest. By the time the existing list shrinks down to a handful of projects, the second major boom will begin.

I think Greenville is in the same boat. I believe that when a few of our projects that are in the 4-10 story range get built it will then spur development to build higher and taller buildings. G-man will probably disagree but it is going to happen whether he likes it or not.

The best thing for Raleigh is to have Novare, out of Atlanta, to set up shop here. They have an office here in Charlotte, so it may be a matter of time before they see Raleigh as a good market.

^Novare has already done wonders in Tampa. We've got Skypoint built, and then Element under construction as well as three or four towers proposed by them in the Channelside district! Novare is a great company and could certainly help out any city!

:dunno: Road trip?

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2316/2115982113_ca1cea1ee4_b.jpg

g-man, you are a piece of work... Or you are simply very desperate for photos :lol:

I agree with y'all. A company like Novare would certainly help Raleigh a lot. Their projects would not be pies in the sky, or even small in size and significance. I suspect that they will not pay attention to our city until we surpass a certain metro population, or until Raleigh manages to attract 1-2 major corporations to downtown. You never know, though. If they can be successful in Charlotte, there is a chance they may decide to branch out a little more, to other NC cities.

^^http://www.freioss.net/images/linux-tux-xmas.jpg :D

I believe I have posted that before, but anyway... Merry Christmas to all!!!

^^:bow:

Raleigh Looking at Downtown Land as New Concert Venue

http://wral.com/news/local/story/2249334/

Yes, and I will post some renderings for y'all to see. G-man, don't make faces, I can see you. Yes, I will share some photos this time, for real.

I want to come visit Raleigh but im afraid I might not come back to Greenville.

Yes, and I will post some renderings for y'all to see. G-man, don't make faces, I can see you. Yes, I will share some photos this time, for real.

:baeh3:

Here are a couple other stories:

RBC looks like it will finish ahead of schedule, August-ish.
NBC 17 Story (http://www.nbc17.com/midatlantic/ncn/news.apx.-content-articles-NCN-2008-01-03-0015.html)

Raleigh is opening up a Downtown visitors center
WRAL Story (http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/2251871/)

I want to come visit Raleigh but im afraid I might not come back to Greenville.
I wouldn't worry about that, at this point in time. DT Raleigh is definitely on the rise, and the future looks promising, but we are not there yet. Feel free to visit, and visit again, without fearing possible relocation :lol: Talk to g-man and you can both take a trip to this area. I am sure he is very tempted to visit Raleigh and take some construction update photos... just to make me feel guilty for not posting mine :rofl:

Justin, thanks for the links. It is amazing how beneficial the drought can be for DT Raleigh :lol: In a way, I am glad that these projects are taking place right now, during dryer weather conditions - still pray for some substantial rain. Useful retail will be the key, but evidently our city leaders have taken this very seriously and we can hope to see some improvements. I think that the Edison and Site One will do a lot to encourage additional retail destinations, mainly because of the large number of residential units. Of course, when discussing downtown we should not ignore the developments near and along Hillsborough Str. This area may see tremendous boost in retail, considering the much larger number of condos it has, and will continue to get (Hue, The Hillsborough, Dawson, Quorum Center, One Glenwood, Winston Tower, Bloomsbury Estates, and several others) - let's not forget the hotels, either. This is definitely a great area to watch for future growth in downtown, even though the city leaders are currently very focused on Fayetteville Str and the surrounding areas.

Id would be bald by the time I got there if I had to ride with G-man.

^^I have a radio in my car. :D

:lol: :banana: It's Tux world:
http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc56/lilj4425/224.jpg

double post.

So it looks like 2008 will be the year all have planned and anticipated it to be. With a new terminal, Convention center, RBC tower, Marriot hotel, DT Amphitheatre, Fayetteville Street Plaza opening, and residents moving down there this will be an exciting year for the Triangle. I stress Triangle because I think Raleigh can be the leader, and should be, in DT development for he area and Durham certianly has much to be pleased with as it looks to do something on the scale according to its population.

Thanks for the image, g-man :)

Cary NC, I think that 2008, 2010 and 2012 will be equally important milestones. The projects you mentioned, with the exception of the Convention Center Tent (a.k.a. The Amphitheater) and the new terminal, will be completed within 2008, in time for major celebrations!!! I would like to believe that the 3rd annual celebration of the Fayetteville Street reopening will be an even bigger event, as we'll celebrate a few more milestones. Of course, in 2010 we'll have Site One, Lafayette, The L Building, The Hue, The Hillsborough and the Winston Tower to add some enthusiasm. Who knows, we may have a few more :) 2012 will be significant, mainly because of The Edison, but also because of several other discussed towers. The Edison is a very large project, for our standards, and once completed will create a very different feel for our downtown.

As you (Cary NC) said, both Raleigh and Durham have been doing a lot for their downtown areas. Hopefully, both cities will have a skyline that will reflect their population numbers, but at the street level I would not place the two cities behind others. DT Raleigh, in particular, has been doing many great things since the early 90's, when other downtown areas were ghost towns. What we don't have in terms of high-rises, we have at the street level. Technically, Raleigh is one of the leading cities and doesn't play second fiddle. If we begin to think big(ger), we will create a very powerful image for our city, but we are not there yet.

Let me post a couple of images of what I know to be "the amphitheater". Nothing impressive, but more like a tent, hence the name "Convention Center Tent". Keep in mind that the lot where the tent will go is not cleared, nor I think they will have it ready by the time the convention center opens. Not that I care, anyway. By the way, have you noticed how they made Sheraton look like a tower of significant size? Someone is trying to make us feel better about our current skyline :lol:

http://www.raleighmsa.com/images/projects/DowntownRaleigh/ConventionCenterTent/D200A_7919m.jpg

http://www.raleighmsa.com/images/projects/DowntownRaleigh/ConventionCenterTent/D200A_7921m.jpg

FINALLY. Yes, yes, yes. :banana: http://www.diddamsonline.com/images/RI7139.jpg

I haven't heard much lately about the Blount Street Commons project, but I have found this video posted: http://www.blountstreetcommons.com/renovation/

Regarding the Blount Street Commons there is one report (with video) on WRAL-5's website: Downtown Development Project to Reflect 'Historic Heritage' (http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/2259451/).

One little update concerning the area NW of downtown, where the envisioned Riverwalk project may eventually be developed: Prime parcel is historic (http://www.newsobserver.com/business/story/863754.html). This is yet another golden opportunity to develop a substantial - for downtown standards - amount of space. Among the interested developers are Empire Properties, Hamilton Merritt and Cherokee Investment Partners, which is a good list to work with. All of them can bring good things to the aforementioned area, although I prefer Hamilton Merritt for its larger scale vision. The other two candidates are great, but it will take them far longer to complete this project than I am willing to wait :) I assume more developers will jump into this opportunity once the city makes the site available.

Also, the TBJ had a n article on RBC Plaza: RBC Plaza (http://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/stories/2008/01/07/story12.html?b=1199682000^1571714&t=printable). Nothing inspiring, plus one factual error - the swimming pool will be on the 22nd floor (23rd, if you take the 13th floor in consideration) - but there is a piece of information some may be interested in: 65% of the office space has been leased.

Last, but not least. For those of you interested in viewing the skyline from a distance, I recommend that you drive in front of the Holy Trinity Greek Orthodox Church (off of Lead Mine Rd). If you stop between the church building and the parking lot across, you can see Wachovia Capital Center, Two Hannover Square and the RBC Plaza crane. If you are not certain about the spot, check out this map (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&time=&date=&ttype=&q=raleigh,+nc&ie=UTF8&ll=35.849126,-78.672629&spn=0.001639,0.002511&t=h&z=19&om=1). It is on French Dr. Nothing spectacular, but it was interesting to see the skyline from there. I can imagine how nice the skyline will look from the top floors of Soleil Center, the rest of the proposed developments behind Crabtree Valley Mall and the North Hills East high-rises. Prime views of downtown, without a doubt!!!

More whining and complaining by the usual suspects: High-rent proposal east of downtown questioned (http://www.newsobserver.com/news/story/866804.html). For those too unwilling to click on the link, here is the summary:
...

Raleigh developer Gordon Smith wants to change that with a new apartment building that could grow six stories high and offer up to 200 units.

Right now, his 2-acre plot is allowed only 20 units.

But neighbors in the historic Southeast Raleigh neighborhood want one question answered: Who can afford it?

...

Smith could not state exact rents for his proposed project, but said some would fall under $1,000 a month and others above.

...

"It's not saying we want to pooh-pooh anything," said Lonnette Williams, chairwoman of the Central CAC. "We live here. Downtown is a business venture. It's going to be a lifestyle for the rich and famous."

...

Councilman James West said he hopes a compromise can be struck, but fears high-dollar investment could hurt a fragile community that has struggled to keep quality housing.

"You are dictating a tone for two Raleighs," said Octavia Rainey, chairwoman of the CAC that lies just to the north -- "one Raleigh for the haves, and one for the have-nots."
Y'all can form an opinion on this, but here is mine: Let's make a downtown that is for the "have-nots" to satisfy Octavia Rainey and her kin. Let's subsidize everything and turn downtown into a low-income zone and watch the private investments pouring into other areas. Thanks, but no thanks :bash: I want downtown to be affordable because it is the ONLY way for me to move there some day, but let's not kill good projects, much needed for the downtown economy. Some people may feel that $1000 rent is too much - I would agree - but given the latest property evaluations by Wake County, it will become far more expensive to rent in the future. To live downtown, $1000 may not be too much, provided there are amenities and the apartments are roomy and in good condition. To achieve the former, we need a lot of people who would pay $1000 for rent. These individuals would boost the downtown economy and help retail and entertainment to grow. Consequently, they will create demand for new jobs that the nearby residents can fill. It is a win-win situation, but maybe I am narrow minded.

^^ I read this article earlier today. I can understand people's complaints, but do not agree that they should retard change. "DT" will move East and South. Simply because of the lowcost land when compared to areas North and West.

Low Income areas are always redeveloped due to the low cost of developing such areas. People in these areas don't like it, understandably. But I have to say "tough". there are programs to help you get higher paying jobs, Take the governments 'Hand-Up' and not the 'Hand-out'.

Interesting article, particularly since I just moved into my first house and it is in the SE part of Raleigh. I am all for development that will increase the value of my home and the area. I know many in SE Raleigh have pled for more commercial development and rightfully so because there is not much down in these neck of woods without driving for 15 minutes to Garner or NE Raleigh. But lets face it, the commercial development is not going to come until the disposable income is there and frankly there is not much in SE Raleigh if people are qualifying for governmental help.... ( not a knock on them because I used to be there, but went back to school and got my degree so that I could have some disposable income). I support these types of developments because the begin to turn the lifestyles around and bring in people that would shop at the stores all these people in SE Raleigh want.

One of the biggest issues I have with all the complains is that the proposal is for one block away from City Market/Moore Square. We are talking about one of Raleigh's entertainment districts, where we want to create pedestrian traffic and bring additional population. If there was a possibility of relocating people to bring the affluent population of our city, I would certainly look at this project with a different eye, but as is, we are talking about increasing population and tax base - the property owner will pay the taxes, of course. Anyway, I hope that the city leaders will not be fooled into compromising density for a few votes - West can object if he needs to, but he has nothing to fear, as nobody else opposes him in his district.

:banana: Credit to digital papercuts from Flickr for this photo taken on December 30th:
http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc56/lilj4425/2148422163_1405d90391_o.jpg

holy cow! Gman actuall posts a picture!

Yes, that is something new, isn't it? :rofl:

Flash and I went for some photo shooting two days ago and visited the Boylan Ave bridge for a few shots. Flash brought to my attention the new signal post that was installed - visible to the center of the above photo - and its disruptive nature. However, I must admit it adds to the image. Also, the photo makes me anxious to see the two Edison towers appearing in the skyline :)

^^Well, slap me silly. :D Save the penguins. Eat mor chikin. :eat:

If anyone was wondering what is the update on The Mint (http://www.themintrestaurant.com/default.asp), here is a nice link, with a video: New Restaurant Costs Raleigh Taxpayers a Pretty Penny (http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/2280577/). Unfortunately, it is true that the taxpayers are picking up the tab, but hopefully it will be worth the investment. Judging from the video, the restaurant will look really nice and it is exactly what Fayetteville Street needs. Of course, I am a bit skeptic when it comes to the city offering a restaurant business so much in terms of incentives - more than they offered to RBC Centura - but I will let y'all be the judge. Personally, I will support the restaurant, whenever possible, and I hope they do well. The timing is not perfect, but I hope they will stay in business long enough for the convention center to provide them with more customers. I hope they will eventually provide outdoors seating, but it doesn't look like they will do so any time soon.

^^Still hoping for update pics. :pepper:

There is outdoor seating in one exchange plaza. They have set up heaters and rails under the trees there. I think it looks very nice, something not much other places downtown can offer.

yeah the mint getting incentives from the city does seem like a touchy subject. The way I see it is that the tenants may not have as much freedom as other shops. That 9 year contract puts them on a pretty tight leash and paying over $12k a month sounds pretty high. If you do the math, the city will get it's money back over the nine years and more past that..........if the mint is successful.

BTW, i picked up such a negative tone in that article. like WRAL wanted to stir things up with some gossip and no real research, get everyone all fired up over a restaurant with $1 million in taxpayer money. :ohno: i dont know of any examples but i bet we could do a little research and see some similar cases of this happening in other cities and find a success story out of it that turned out beneficial to that city.

sorry i made the mistake of reading the comments.

Isn't the $1mil money that was used to upfit the space - like any landlord would do? Just because it's the city doesn't make it exempt from doing things that should be done to begin with. The better question would be not that they spent the $1mil for restaurant up fit, but should that space have been used for a restaurant to begin with, if the city has to be involved and spend that money. I personally think they made the correct decision - the city owns the building and that corner is a primary retail spot - you don't want the city's (which is trumpeting downtown revitalization and screaming for more retail,retail, retail) building to sit there with an empty storefront.

cophead, many forumers tend to get upset when they hear of incentives, but they frequently miss the cases when over-spending is more of an issue, particularly in Raleigh. Now, the mayor wants to raise our water bill by 50%, which to me is ridiculous. That translates to far more than $1 million in investments. I would be more concerned about such an increase than I owuld be over spending $1 million on investments, even though this amount is ridiculously high for such renovation, IMHO.

The city has focused a lot on Fayetteville Str - something that I support - but our leaders have to be very careful how they invest. Incentives to bring a corporation is one thing, incentives to bring a restaurant is another. WRAL-5, much like any other media venue, brings what makes the news. The Mint is not news, unless there is some controversy, or it has MAJOR success as an entertainment venue. Of course, the price tag is the problem and I think that complains are well justified. If the city invests in a smart way, then they won't have to increase the fees for basic services. As a taxpayer and a homeowner who recently became a father, I must save every penny, and my leaders have to convince me that they can use tax revenues wisely. I applaud a good investment, but I am not 100% convinced that mayor Meeker is on his right mind at this point in time. Hopefully, his new "allies" in the city council won't follow his lead on this.

This really is a great picture! I hope to see more glass towers in downtown Raleigh to give te city that high-tech look

http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc56/lilj4425/2148422163_1405d90391_o.jpg

I agree. We need some architecture that will make a statement. So far we lack that factor :( I do hope that the two Edison towers will fill that gap, somehow, but more is needed, particularly on the West side of the CBD - in the above photo you are looking straight towards the East.

couldnt ask for a better site for RBC!

I agree!!! That spot in the middle was too empty. The two Edison towers will appear behind RBC Plaza, slightly to the left and to the right. I expect them to make some impact to the skyline from this angle (Boylan Ave bridge), although not a BIG one.

This really is a great picture! I hope to see more glass towers in downtown Raleigh to give te city that high-tech look

http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc56/lilj4425/2148422163_1405d90391_o.jpg

There is a new tower, the safety center i think it is?, that is replacing the municpal building so that should add something to the left of wachovia in the picture. raleigh-nc, can you confirm this?

I think it might be hard to fill that gap on the left. Hargett St. is pretty nice now and I dont see any of the smaller towers and historic buildings coming down any time soon.

:D Raleigh-NC is the adult penguin. Me and Cityboi are the babies. :lol: I'm the one who got kicked off the island: http://youtube.com/watch?v=bPlDP8vlrRs

Sorry for the quality, but I took this tonight with my cell phone from the rear parking lot of the Dawson on Morgan, overlooking the Hue site...


http://www.geocities.com/foyedw/raleighskyline.jpg

^^I never knew a red X could be such a great skyline picture. ;)

^^ Maybe you're just not seeing clearly. Check again.

^^:cry: Raleigh-NC, tell him to quit making fun of me. :cry: :D

g-man, your PC is pathetic... Stop using the f*ckin IE and start using Firefox. Enough with those X's :( On a happier note, I can see the photo just fine :okay:

cophead you are correct about the Clarence Lightner Public Safety Center. Even if it ends up being 15 stories, it will make a great impact from the Boylan Ave bridge. The best part is, it will cover much of that AT&T building - another eyesore. By the way, did you see this: Time lapse of RBC Plaza (http://videos.newsobserver.com/?a=player&id=1663040)? Nothing too special, but nevertheless interesting.

g-man, your PC is pathetic... Stop using the f*ckin IE and start using Firefox. Enough with those X's :( On a happier note, I can see the photo just fine :okay:

cophead you are correct about the Clarence Lightner Public Safety Center. Even if it ends up being 15 stories, it will make a great impact from the Boylan Ave bridge. The best part is, it will cover much of that AT&T building - another eyesore. By the way, did you see this: Time lapse of RBC Plaza (http://videos.newsobserver.com/?a=player&id=1663040)? Nothing too special, but nevertheless interesting.

I'm on a Sony Vaio laptop less than two months old. :lol: Red X's are pretty. :D And where are those update pics? :rant: :rant:

g-man, your PC is pathetic... Stop using the f*ckin IE and start using Firefox. Enough with those X's :( On a happier note, I can see the photo just fine :okay:

cophead you are correct about the Clarence Lightner Public Safety Center. Even if it ends up being 15 stories, it will make a great impact from the Boylan Ave bridge. The best part is, it will cover much of that AT&T building - another eyesore. By the way, did you see this: Time lapse of RBC Plaza (http://videos.newsobserver.com/?a=player&id=1663040)? Nothing too special, but nevertheless interesting.

Is it just me, or did they recently put on a new AT&T logo on the top of the building?

You are correct, I think. They did put an AT&T logo. Too bad that building is an eyesore, IMHO.

Just as we list all of the new projects downtown from time-to-time, I think that someone should compile a list of all current bldgs downtown that can be classified as eyesores. Just maybe someone will take note and decide to demolish a few of them like the former 301 Hillsborough bldg was, to make way for a gleaming tower.

If cities were ever ranked according to the number of eyesores downtown, Raleigh would once again be at the top of a list.

When eyesores were torn down in uptown Charlotte, you should have heard all the cries about demolishing these buildings. Our history is gone.

The problem with old buildings is they do not meet most standards for today’s business needs and would too expensive to do. Most old buildings floors are not as tall as today’s buildings to add for all the equipment needs of today’s buildings. Heating and air-condition would be hard to add to these buildings to look good and not take up space.

Personally, I feel that bldgs should not be kept and/or restored simply because they have been around for a while. Unless a bldg has some historical significance or is architechturally unique, it should not be exempt from the wrecking ball.

In Raleigh I see a distinction between eyesore and history. 301 Hillsborough is a good example---it's an eyesore. So is the AT&T building mentioned earlier. But the buildings scheduled to be torn down to make way for the Wake County Justice building are historical.

Maybe its just a matter of personal taste.

I would consider the Lawyers Bldg a great example of what we should preserve. Can't say the same for the Garland H. Jones Bldg, although some may argue that it has a certain value, from an urban standpoint. If the county demolishes even one of them in order to build yet-another eyesore, then they are assholes of the worst kind :bash: The Lawyers Bldg should be preserved, IMHO, unless there are structural issues.

Demolishing nice buildings for the sake of replacing them with uninspired structures should not be tolerated. There has to be a balance and a limit, though. Many people call historic every sh*thole that stood the test of time. I am sorry, but while there is some history involved behind everything that stands today, I am not sure I want the future generations to look at disgusting looking buildings and shake their heads. Yes, I am speaking of the new Marriott Hotel, and possibly the New Courthouse. I am as extreme as it gets when it comes to historic preservation, but some people in Raleigh need to lay off the pipe and face reality. Some sacrifices will have to be made as we are trying to write our own history. Trying to make Raleigh appear like Charleston, or Savannah, makes no sense. There are historic cities and cities with some history. Sorry, but Raleigh is not a historic city. So, let's keep the good looking buildings that we can salvage and make some room for better, more inspiring designs. The city leaders will have to take a lead in this area.

Feel free to shoot me now :lol:

^^Hand me the tarter sauce. ;)

I (personally) find the Garland Jones building to be the more important, attractive, and architecturally significant when compared to the Lawyers Building. My reasoning?
1. There's nothing else like it downtown. There are several state-owned 1950s-1960s modernist buildings that are similar in some respects, but they are all very aloof and institutional/monumental; this one was originally built as a commercial building, and it is very down-to-earth and interacts well with the street.
2. The facade is pretty much 100% intact. The blue panels probably used to be some different, more 1960s-ish color, but that's just paint. The ground floor of the Lawyers building on the other hand looks like it has been heavily modified at some point. It looks like it's been covered over with stucco or concrete or something.
3. It's just plain cool.

At any rate, I'd rather see BOTH of these buildings stay, rather than get replaced by a courthouse. Regardless of how modern and excellent the design of a courthouse is, it will ALWAYS be a fortress, simply due to practical security concerns. In these days of metal detectors, there is no such thing as a courthouse that interacts well with the street.

Lawyers and GJ inject some friendliness onto this otherwise bleak and institutional block and I'd hate to see that taken away.

What will replace the two buildings will most likely be of lesser importance, at least architecturally... Based on that, alone, I want both buildings to remain the way they are. As orulz pointed out, the GJ building has some unique features - although I do not care about them - and for that alone deserves to get a life extension. At least it has an acceptable urban form. What I will disagree with is that a courthouse will always be a fortress. It can be a large structure, but not necessarily the monolithic building we have seen in the initial renderings. I still hope that several revisions will help the county see the value in leaving the existing buildings in place and place a taller, more inspiring tower at the Western part of the block. They could even co-develop, in a similar fashion to the L Building. Still, I am just amazed at how small the county leaders think. If they are to demolish the Lawyers and GJ buildings, they should at least build a 20+ story tower on part of the block and later redevelop the former two buildings. That way they could build something more attractive and hopefully improve on the street-level along McDowell and Martin streets, while strengthening the Salisbury Str side at a later time; an area where both Lawyers and GJ buildings are strong contributors, right now.

CLTNC, I hate to digress, but how did cities such as Richmond and Baltimore manage to preserve many of their older structures and update them for contemporary use? Some of what has happened in years past in terms of demolishing historical structures in our cities has simply been wasteful and inexcusable.

As far as the Lawyers and GJ buildings in Raleigh, I really like both of those buildings. They appear to be solid architectural representations of the times in which they were built.

any photos of these buildings?