Chadstone seeks to expand
January 21 2003
By Farrah Tomazin

A planned $100 million expansion of Chadstone shopping centre has given rise to fears of chaos on major roads surrounding the complex.

Residents near the centre - already Australia's largest stand-alone retail complex - have also expressed concern at "encroachment" on the local neighbourhood.

Chadstone's owner, the Gandel Retail Group, is seeking a permit from Stonnington City Council to expand the retail floor space by 40,500 square metres, or nearly 40 per cent.

Gandel development manager Paul Donoghue said the proposal involved a shift from Chadstone's original design as an enclosed mall to an "open-air" shopping strip on the south-east corner of the site formerly occupied by the Australian Catholic University.

The proposed development, to be called Chadstone Place, would feature a mix of general and homeware shops over two levels.

"It's an open-air format, a little bit like what you'd find in High Street, Armadale, or Chapel Street in Prahran," Mr Donoghue said.

But the City of Monash, which borders the eastern end of Chadstone, expressed concerns about potential effects on surrounding roads in Monash, such as Middle Road and Warrigal Road, which connect to the Monash Freeway.

Monash Mayor Geoff Lake said the council had lodged a formal submission to Stonnington council seeking more information about the development and how it could affect the municipality.

Resident Mark Thompson said some people feared Chadstone - which has had several upgrades since it opened in 1960 - would continue to expand and eventually dominate nearby residential streets.

"Just the enormity of something that size is a little bit mind-boggling," he said.

Residents also expressed concerns about increased noise and have suggested that an underpass to Chadstone be built from Warrigal Road to minimise the impact of traffic and to maintain neighbourhood amenity.

Gandel responded by saying that roadworks for Warrigal and Middle Roads would be conducted as part of the development. More than 1400 extra car spaces would also be provided.

The expansion would require an amendment to Stonnington's planning scheme as well as a council permit.

Stonnington planning and development general manager Stephen Sabbatucci said the council had not yet decided on the proposal, but had set up a working party to examine Gandel's plans and the possible impact on the local community.

It was only in 1998-99 that a Myer concept store, a David Jones store, a cinema expansion and 46 shops were added to the centre.

Residents have until today to lodge submissions to the council
www.theage.com.au

I hope they build it. Chadstone truely is the Fashion Capital.

:D

I wouldnt mind it done, if they do it properly...

Maybe they could build a monorail to Homesglen station and the one on the Dandenong train line nearby too.

Does anyone have pics of this place? We always hear about it, but never seen anything.

The largest shopping centre in Australia continues to grow...I agree, it truly is the fashion capital. 40% is a huge increase too! Hopefully the new strip will be like the new Knox O-zone.

PS. Just makes a further case for PUBLIC TRANSPORT investment into the area! But I agree, the place is chockers as it is!

Jeez, that place is going to hit the CBD soon.

Chadstone size is already overwhelming and huge.

I've been to Miranda Fair in NSW and even that just doesn't seem to compare to the sheer scale of Chadstone, that stats might prove otherwise, but Chadstone is truely Australia's MEGA MALL.

Miranda Fair is hardly Sydney's largest Shopping Mall. Maybe you should take a look at Warringah Mall and Parramatta Westfield for a better comparision.

I have to say I would love to see some pics of Chadstone.

Miranda is small. Warringah Mall is pretty big as is Westfield P'matta. But I guess this is also miniscule to Chadstone.

Yeh - some Public Transport in the area would be good - at 5pm when it shuts on weekends, it CAN take upto 1 hour to get out of the car park :S :(

AND the buses that "HUB" there dont usually run on Sundays.

A monorail to the Railstations would make it easier, and improved buses.

Has anyone seen the "history" boards they have near BiLo with the old pictures of what it looked like when it was built?

40% extension :? I already cant find my way around.

Its come along way since then!


there might be some pics here http://www.gandel.com.au/chadstone/

grrr all big shopping centre are the same BORING
i hate centres over 2 levels [miranda, paramatta etc] and centres that are long [carousel]

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<tr><td align=left valign=top>Yeh - some Public Transport in the area would be good - at 5pm when it shuts on weekends, it CAN take upto 1 hour to get out of the car park :S :(

AND the buses that "HUB" there dont usually run on Sundays.

A monorail to the Railstations would make it easier, and improved buses.

Has anyone seen the "history" boards they have near BiLo with the old pictures of what it looked like when it was built?

40% extension :? I already cant find my way around.

Its come along way since then!


there might be some pics here http://www.gandel.com.au/chadstone/</td></tr>
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There is an aerial shot of the centre within the Gandel website. If you click on [Financial Reports] and the [Half Yearly Report for the six months ended 31 December 2001]


http://www.gandel.com.au/dir143/gandel.nsf/files/2001_Gandel_HlfYrRpt.pdf/$file/2001_Gandel_HlfYrRpt.pdf

(You may need to copy the above link and paste it into your browser)

Page 9 has a shot taken from the air, behind it you can see the Monash Freeway.

can only find these pics of Chaddy:

http://www.campuswalk.com.au/media/location/chadstone.jpg

http://www.articulight.com/acc/city02/sydney/Chadstone.jpg

http://lachlan.bluehaze.com.au/aus2002/05mar2002/dc0026l.jpg

http://lachlan.bluehaze.com.au/aus2002/05mar2002/dc0029l.jpg

And here's the pic that nagelixin quoted from the PDF file:

http://members.iinet.net.au/~tayser/chaddy.JPG

tays

OMG!

That is a damn copout! They are so trying to get back all the business they lost to Knox City's development. They want to introduce an open air theme and have it specialise in homewares. That is exactly what Knox did (and did it to perfection mind you).

Oh well, time will tell if it goes ahead I guess :)

MG2

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<tr><td align=left valign=top>OMG!

That is a damn copout! They are so trying to get back all the business they lost to Knox City's development. They want to introduce an open air theme and have it specialise in homewares. That is exactly what Knox did (and did it to perfection mind you).

Oh well, time will tell if it goes ahead I guess :)

MG2</td></tr>
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LoL I agree it sounds like a total ripoff of Knox's new O-Zone

I went to OZONE yesterday and I must say I was *IMPRESSED* .. it is spacious, ultra-modern, big, funky yet very natural feeling..

A *very* cool place for a shopping centre..

But really.. is Knox stealing business from Chaddy?? C'mon they are miles apart!!! There are at least 2 other shopping centres in between them anyway - The Glen and Forest Hill ...

You can't forget good old Brandon Park. I'm sure it takes millions of customers away from Chadstone. :laugh:

Hey all!

You might not know it A-Brian, but Knox City and Chadstone shopping centres have had a very strong rivalry which has in recent years escalated. Knox has been my local since I can remember, but it wasn't until I started working there (have worked there for three years at the casual guy store and at one of the old restaurants while at high school) that I realised how competative both centres are.

It reminds me of the syd vs melb rivalry. I would compare chadstone to sydney, and Knox to Melbourne. A few years back now Knox was named Victoria's best shopping centre. This was published in the centre newsletter and it was a big deal. We were all so proud to have beaten chaddy by one point! :D

Anywaaaaaaays.... enough of the old days talk.... Chadstone and Knox are not that far apart in terms of distance. If you live in burwood for example you can drive east 10 minutes to Knox or west 10 minutes to chaddy. So the two centres compete for the shoppers from these areas. The area's between Knox and Chaddy are filled with well off suburbs and it is this business that they compete for. When looking at The Glen and Forest Hill, well I've worked at both those centres too and they really don't compare to the size and quality of Knox and Chaddy. The only other shopping centre that comes close is Southland and that is a good 45 minute drive away from Knox and probably 30 from Chaddy.

Chadstone's last major upgrade cemented it as the fashion capital. It secured the big names, like DKNY, Polo Ralph Lauren, Saba, Alannah Hill etc etc... So Knox in it's long overdue redevelopment took a different angle and has catered for living, entertainment and the mind and body. If you need to buy something for your house, anything to do with entertaining at home or any product or service for the mind and body you go to the Knox loft - with stores like Bayswiss, Beacon Cove, Dune, Harvey Norman, MYER, Borders, Dayspa, Jurlique and the list goes on and on... If you wnat to go to the movies, a club, bar, restaurant, you go to the Knox Ozone... simple as that. Knox needed to do this to create a specialty area for themselves and it has worked wonders!

Hope that has cleared that up for you a little :) If there's anything else you want to know about the centres just ask... :)

MG2

Hey MG2,

Yes of course I was being a little facetious to suggest The Glen & Forest Hill are on a scale with Chaddy and Knox (partic since the renno) ..

I think more realistically the rivalry between Southland-Chadstone-Knox is akin to Melbourne-Sydney-Brisbane

ie. Knox (Brissy) sees itself as a brash modern up and comer competing with the big glamourous bloated Chaddy (Sydney) .. while at the same time Southland (Melbourne) is almost as big as Chaddy, is often comparing itself to it and actually beats it in many categories but will never overtake it for fame or status ;)

Chaddy meanwhile sits in the middle and considers both on either side as competitors but never serious threats!

And if one of the others comes up with something cool and new (like Ozone) then big bad Chaddy (Sydney) just borrows it for itself!

And .. ahem to further the analogy ..

Highpoint is Perth - the big boy out west all by itself also holiding it's own very nicely.

Doncaster mgiht be Adelaide - an old dog that used to be a leader back in the 70's but has stagnated a bit to cater to a more niche market these days.. constantly said to be mounting a big comeback ..

Where that puts Northland I'm not sure, maybe it's Auckland or something!

LOL!

tays

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<tr><td align=left valign=top>And .. ahem to further the analogy ..

Highpoint is Perth - the big boy out west all by itself also holiding it's own very nicely.

Doncaster mgiht be Adelaide - an old dog that used to be a leader back in the 70's but has stagnated a bit to cater to a more niche market these days.. constantly said to be mounting a big comeback ..

Where that puts Northland I'm not sure, maybe it's Auckland or something!</td></tr>
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Brilliant! I was just about to ask what about Highpoint and Doncaster! hehehehe

Well said, A-Brain and MG2. And yes, Knox Ozone is a winner! I'm lucky that I live roughly with 20 mins drive of Doncaster, Knox, Chaddy, Camberwell, Forest Hill, Box Hill and the Glen. And which one do I go to? Quite simply - it depends what I'm after at that particular point in time.

Forest Hill or Box Hill must be Launceston and Hobart!

So I guess the Glen is...:?

Man, Chaddie could be 140,000 sqm m+ ! That is massive.

Chaddie is the undisputed king of retail shopping centres as measured by $ sales per sq metre, which is pretty much the number one indicator of how a centre is performing.

I was at Warringah Mall in Sydney this morning, which is about the same size as Chaddie but with a vastly different retail format ( a bit like Pacific Fair with its inside/outside areas ) , and it is truly vast in its size. Nice though.

I love Chaddy.
Living less than half a kilometre away is very handy and it is only 20kms from the city centre.

It is huge, but the best thing about it is that it has a great sense of openness that prevents it from being overwhelming (like other shopping centres I have been to). The designs for the 90s extensions are timeless. But despite the open space it really does pack the people in !

Still, it is already too big ... there is not enough parking space and increasing the size will only make the problem worse.

The intersections of Warrigal and Dandenong Road is one of the busiest in Melbourne and most of this can be put down to Chaddy.

I'd also be concerned about the effect on the 'true' strip shopping centres in the area, such as Koornang Road in Carnegie, Neerim Road in Murrumbeena and Poath Road Hughesdale (all great shopping centres that continue to suffer due to Chaddy's incessant growth - and coincidentally not in Stonnington).

I really think that they need to extend the tramline from Caulfield to Chadstone along Dandenong Road. This would make the place more accessible and take the pressure off traffic. Trams only go as far as Carnegie at the moment and the only transport is trains and buses.

Blabbyboy: The Glen ? lol

aren't Doncaster, Chadstone and The Glen the upper-class market centres in Melbourne ? haven't been to the Glen in years (not since just after it had a refurb)

Box Hill Central!!!! Potential to the max, it's up there with the one or two centres in Sydney where there's a train line running underneath the centre, best transport of any centre in Victoria IMO (apart from Melbourne Central) - just like that car park which fits max 50 cars which is going to waste, and had a 17 level apartment / hotel tower proposed......... *sigh* Box Hill could be so much better!

tays

Chadstone is huge in that aerial and alot of it is carpark. Wouldn't of it been better to have the carparks multilevel therefore taking up less space.

The expansion outwards must stop. It's becoming too big. They should consolidate the site instead by building upwards such as adding extra levels of shops and parking before they dare attempt to expand into surrounding streets

How may shops does Chadstone have and what other facilities (including entertainment) they have?

Chadstone has Australia's largest suburban car park with well over 8,000 spaces most (90%) of which are multi-storey.

Chadstone has over 400 retail outlets, 16 Hoyts cinemas (including La Premier), AMF Bowl, 2 food courts etc etc...

Here's a website: http://melbourne.citysearch.com.au/E/V/MELBO/0080/52/69/1.html

Here is Chadstone - The Fashion Capital's (http://www.gandel.com.au/dir143/gandel.nsf/ChadstoneWeb?Open) web site

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<tr><td align=left valign=top>Blabbyboy: The Glen ? lol

aren't Doncaster, Chadstone and The Glen the upper-class market centres in Melbourne ? haven't been to the Glen in years (not since just after it had a refurb)

Box Hill Central!!!! Potential to the max, it's up there with the one or two centres in Sydney where there's a train line running underneath the centre, best transport of any centre in Victoria IMO (apart from Melbourne Central) - just like that car park which fits max 50 cars which is going to waste, and had a 17 level apartment / hotel tower proposed......... *sigh* Box Hill could be so much better!

tays</td></tr>
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Agree completely, Tays. Box Hill has the best potential of ALL. Luckily Centro has taken over the now defunct'd Whitehorse Plaza (site of the 17 storey proposal which has since been rejected). Centro built and operates the classy Glen Shopping Centre. But Box Hill Central is a sorry excuse for a shopping centre with the best transport links of any!

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<tr><td align=left valign=top>Blabbyboy: The Glen ? lol



Box Hill Central!!!! Potential to the max, it's up there with the one or two centres in Sydney where there's a train line running underneath the centre, best transport of any centre in Victoria IMO (apart from Melbourne Central) - just like that car park which fits max 50 cars which is going to waste, and had a 17 level apartment / hotel tower proposed......... *sigh* Box Hill could be so much better!

tays</td></tr>
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Box Hill Central/Whitehorse Plaza both have alot of potential, but unfortunately, people dont go there to shop because of the Asian Gang problem.
One thing Box Hill is good for, is Carrington Road, which I think has some of the best, if not THE best Asian Restaurants in Melbourne! :)

Asian gang problem ?

ummmm, I aint' see no "problem" - there USED to be a major drug problem, used to see people openly dealing in the streets, they said it was rife there because OF the excellent "Get-away" options i.e the public transport,

thank god Box Hill has been cleaned up a lot since then!

tays

Yeh, there is a bit of a Asian Gang Problem. Its normally only at night, but its not a good place to go by yourself.

I think not many ppl shop there anymore because they are scared, and the drug reputation the area has had.

I must be so oblivious to it then.

I walk through there, the bus station and rail station all the time and at different times of the night! :?

tays

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<tr><td align=left valign=top>Yeh, there is a bit of a Asian Gang Problem. Its normally only at night, but its not a good place to go by yourself.

I think not many ppl shop there anymore because they are scared, and the drug reputation the area has had.</td></tr>
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Give me a break! Box Hill doesn't have an Asian Gang Problem...perhaps in the 1980s, but not now! It's not Footscray! It's been gentrified!

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/01/24/1042911546872.html

Mall creatures great and small
January 25 2003


http://www.theage.com.au/ffxImage/urlpicture_id_1042911547269_2003/01/24/25n_Chadstone,0.jpg

Chadstone shopping centre, the biggest stand-alone retail complex in Australia.

Already among the biggest in Australia, the shopping centres of Melbourne's east continue to grow, writes Farrah Tomazin.


It's 7pm on Thursday at the Chadstone shopping centre in Melbourne's south-east. Dozens of movie-goers are lined up outside the cinema ticket office, their voices drowned out by a Kylie Minogue album being played at full volume in the record store next door. Around the corner, two children sit at a funky Japanese eatery, eyes fixed on a sushi train that circles a large wooden table, while hundreds of shoppers - teenagers, families, the after-work crowd - drift randomly from store to store.

If there was any suggestion that suburban shopping centres were losing their appeal, there's no sign of it here. In fact, so confident of ongoing success is Chadstone owner, the Gandel Retail Group, that it has applied for a permit to expand the centre - already Australia's largest stand-alone retail complex - by 40,500 square metres, or nearly 40 per cent.

Gandel development manager Paul Donoghue said the $100 million expansion involved the addition of a two-level open-air shopping strip with general retail and homeware shops - "a little bit like what you'd find in High Street, Armadale, or Chapel Street in Prahran," he said.

If approved, the development will be the latest in what has become a trend for Melbourne's suburban shopping centres - to get bigger.

In recent years, Chadstone has added a Myer concept store, David Jones, 46 specialty shops and an expanded cinema to the complex. Elsewhere, in the outer-eastern suburb of Wantirna South, the Knox City Shopping Centre recently opened a dining and entertainment zone, while Cheltenham's Southland has undergone a $300 million upgrade, expanding it to both sides of the Nepean Highway.

Even the inner city will soon get a taste of mall fever, with a $300 million residential project and shopping centre, Victoria Gardens, due for completion this year. More than 13 million people visit Chadstone each year, while Westfield has had about 45 million visitors to its four Victorian centres in the past 12 months.

So why are Melburnians continually flocking to major shopping centres? After all, it was only a few years ago that analysts were predicting the death of suburban malls, with many dismissing them as sterile environments with crowds, too much noise and too little space.

Convenience, parking and closeness to home amid the urban sprawl are three obvious reasons for their success. But there are also other factors. Steve Ogden-Barnes, program director for the Australian Centre for Retail Studies at Monash University, says the attraction of shopping centres has a lot to do with the owners' ability to meet lifestyle changes.

People now work longer hours, so centres have extended trading hours. People want to be entertained, so the modern-day shopping centre - with its amusement centres, bars, cafes or luxury cinemas - is constantly restructured to give the consumer "leisure shopping".

"If you go back 10-15 years, shopping centres were simply a mall of randomly selected retailers," he says. "Now, they're starting to expand the role of the retailer and make it serve two purposes. You've obviously got the presence of retailers, but you've also increasingly got the entertainment and leisure aspect as well."

Mr Ogden-Barnes points to the recent $160 million expansion of Knox as a departure from the traditional enclosed mall to an open-air, entertainment venue. The complex recently opened the O-Zone, leisure precinct with restaurants, cafes, an Irish pub and outdoor dining.

The growth of major shopping centres is not always good news for everyone. Traders from smaller shopping strips often voice concerns for business when expansion plans are revealed.

But retail companies argue that expansion is a commercial necessity; in order to stay competitive, shopping centres must continually be restructured to give consumers a broader shopping experience. "You've got to respond to customers changing needs," says Westfield spokesman Matthew Abbott.

MEGA STORES

VICTORIA GARDENS, RICHMOND

- A 13-hectare site, corner of Victoria and Burnley Streets, Richmond

- Joint project of David Marriner's Staged Developments and Salta Properties, due to open this year

- Three precincts: retail and restaurants, residential, shopping centre

- Houses Ikea, cinema, supermarkets, selected shops, 2500 car spaces

CHADSTONE SHOPPING CENTRE, CHADSTONE

- Opened in 1960

- Gandel Retail Group bought centre in 1983 Expansions in 1980s and 1990s; latest added Myer concept store, David Jones, new cinemas

- Nearly 400 retail outlets

- Gandel has lodged application to expand to 146,000 square metres

- The $100 million proposal involves an open-air shopping strip

WESTFIELD SOUTHLAND, CHELTENHAM

- Recent $300 million expansion, to both sides of Nepean Highway

- Features leisure strip The Street

- 11 major retailers, 350 specialty stores, 5700 car spaces

I'm not sure if the rest of you think so, but I think Westfield Fountain Gate is worth mentioning too. It's on the Princes Highway, Narre Warren (about 32km south-east of the CBD) and about 10 mins drive from where I am in Endeavour Hills.

It used to be non-Westfield and your standard grocery shopping mid-sized sort of centre but it has rapidly expanded over the past couple of years - definitely near or more than doubled. It has Big W, BiLo, Coles, Kmart, Safeway, Target, Myer Megamart, Kmart Garden Supercentre, Village 16 cinemas, Dick Smith Powerhouse, a hotel (I think), a popular new club Brass Monkeys, 305 specialty stores, and a 900-seat food court.

It's the 2nd largest Westfield complex in Melbourne, behind Southland with 402 specialty stores. I wish the Westfield site or somewhere would have the floorspace so it can be fairly compared to the other big centres in Melbourne.

Within the same grounds as Westfield Fountain Gate is also the City of Casey municipal offices and Casey Arc Aquatic Centre. That whole area of Narre Warren in fact has boomed over the past couple of years - a big separate line of stores/warehouses including a Spotlight and a Bunnings (which we know are huge) is right across the road.

I don't visit Knox, Chadstone or Southland a hell of a lot (but I hope to now I can drive myself there - just got licence & car), so I can't compare them properly with Fountain Gate, but it would be good for someone to comment on or compare Fountain Gate with the others.

And on the 'others', Knox O-Zone is amazing! I heard about the new Knox Village cinemas opening and thought I'd take a look at the "biggest cinema screen in Melbourne" (saw Die Another Day on that screen and was awesome) and I honestly thought I was in the middle of the city or on Southbank or something. It was very funky, modern, and has an night-time/bars/clubs/restaurants cafe atmosphere which you wouldn't expect out in the suburbs. You can hear music booming from the Virgin Megastore, the crowds of people chatting & laughing, the clanging of dishes and glasses in the restaurants, and boy you can smell the garlic and other food aromas emanating from around the place.

I also live about 15 minutes from Fountain Gate (different direction to you though seven_news lol :D) and I've also watched this thing expand outwards.

It's about to expand even more - they're getting a David Jones there, doing that 10 years ago, that would be unthinkable!

Brass Monkey's blows - they had 7 cases on meningacockle traced back there, they used to only dip used glasses in water and re-use them. They cram far too many people in there (capacity is 1500 people) and all the Dandenong / Hallam wankers consistantly turn up and cause fights. *bleagh*

The Hotel is just a pub / pokie joint, no actual accomodation I don't think.

I still haven't been to Casey Arc, heard it's good, but regardless.

Narre Warren in itself is the epitomy of everything that is wrong with suburbia - car dominated, massive shopping centres that mooch from the traditional strip centres (Webb St. Narre W.) practically uncontrolled expansion in estates - Narre South now joins up with Cranbourne South, a distance of about 10k bridged in about 5 years. Pissy bus services which take you nowhere.

I'll say one thing though, Narre Warren, along with Springvale, Clayton, Dandenong and Berwick is the most used station at peak times - lots of people commute via there, nbut other than that, if you don't own a car in Narre Warren, you'll die from walking huge distances to get somewhere.

Berwick's still fairly car orientated, but they've integrated two smaller shopping centres (Northside and Southside (of Main St) into High street quite well, people are parking away from Main St (old PRinces Highway) and actually walking between the two centres.

anyhow, that's enough of a rant about suburbia out this way

.

cheers :D

tays

Given all the trafic problems around Chadstone, why don't they just expand towards the freeway and build their own on/off ramps ;)

Looking forward to Victoria Gardens opening, but I'll still probably go into the city or Chadstone - though when I need to go to IKEA I can go to Richmond and not have to travel all the way out to Southland.

Regarding the above comments on Box Hill, I really dislike the centre. There's nothing there! Though it has all the transport, 109 Tran extension, bus terminal and train station. I agree, they could do so much with it!

As i don't have a car, i also tend to go to Burke Road Camberwell. I'm eager to find out what they'll do with the old Honda car yard. And there's also talk about building shops over the train line at Camberwell station.

Though the one's I'm looking forward to the most are Melbourne Central and QV.

I am in Brisbane and atleast twice a year jet down to Melbourne. Has DKNY closed in Chadstone. I was in Sydney the other weekend and the store there has gone....


Chadstone rules!

I went to Westfield Parramatta in Sydney, which is the largest in Sydney, apparently, and to be honest, it feels like an oversized Box Hill Central/Forrest Hill (OK, maybe not Forrest Hill :D). It's quite unremarkable IMHO. It does NOT compare to Chadstone, Doncaster, Southland, Glen, Highpoint, etc etc (Melb shopping centres generally). In particular, it doesn't have the "open" feel of Melb shopping centres, with lots of space, high ceilings, glass skylights, etc. And from the outside it looks...um...bad.

Btw, I didn't know that Fountain Gate was a major shopping centre. And...Centro's refurbed (rebuilt, actually) Whitehorse Plaza in Box Hill is reopening soon (replete with new tram line!). And...Westfield Doncaster has plans to double in size.

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<tr><td align=left valign=top>I went to Westfield Parramatta in Sydney, which is the largest in Sydney, apparently, and to be honest, it feels like an oversized Box Hill Central/Forrest Hill (OK, maybe not Forrest Hill :D). It's quite unremarkable IMHO. It does NOT compare to Chadstone, Doncaster, Southland, Glen, Highpoint, etc etc (Melb shopping centres generally). In particular, it doesn't have the "open" feel of Melb shopping centres, with lots of space, high ceilings, glass skylights, etc. And from the outside it looks...um...bad.

Btw, I didn't know that Fountain Gate was a major shopping centre. And...Centro's refurbed (rebuilt, actually) Whitehorse Plaza in Box Hill is reopening soon (replete with new tram line!). And...Westfield Doncaster has plans to double in size.</td></tr>
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F. Gate's grown significantly since Westfield bought it out about 4 - 5 years ago. I'm pretty sure it's doubled in size!

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<tr><td align=left valign=top>I am in Brisbane and atleast twice a year jet down to Melbourne. Has DKNY closed in Chadstone. I was in Sydney the other weekend and the store there has gone....


Chadstone rules!</td></tr>
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Yep DKNY is still at Chadstone.

There's a locked article in today's AFR (website (http://afr.com/premium/articles/2003/10/02/1064988340638.html)) that says:

Chadstone plan delayed again
The Gandel Group's proposed $100 million expansion to the Chadstone Shopping Centre in south-east Melbourne will be delayed after the local council referred it to a state government-appointed independent panel. By Nicole Lindsay ...

Blabbs, care to give us the guts of the article pls ? ;)

tays

There is construction on the roof chadstone right now.

Anyone know what thats about?

Sorry Tayser, I should have reported on this at the beginning of the week.

The major expansion was delt with the Stonnington Ctiy Council on Monday. The proposed extension is 3 stories, 2 underground with heaps of car parking and about 3 majors (Freedom etc) and 15 or so other specialty stores. Its an interesting proposal. I am certain it will get approved but not by the council, but by the minister. SCC has no balls!

Here are some of the details:
Planning Permit Application 873/02: An application for a planning permit which proposes to extend the shopping centre by 40,500 square metres with an additional 1,414 car spaces.

The proposal also involves the widening of Middle Road and modifications to Warrigal Road to service the shopping centre extension.

SHOP FLOOR AREA: Increase the permitted shop floor area, (including restricted retail), of the shopping centre from 106,000 square metres to 146,000 square metres.

NON-SHOP FLOOR AREA: Remove the requirement that limits the maximum floor area for uses other than shop to 35,000 square metres).

PLANNING PERMIT APPLICATION - SUMMARY

It is proposed to construct an extension to the existing shopping centre on the south east side of the existing building, adjacent to the Bi-Lo supermarket. The building will mainly be on two floors (with basement carparking) but with a smaller additional level for a gymnasium at the top of the building comprising 2000m2 floor space.

A ‘Homemaker Centre’ type retail focus is proposed for this wing of the centre, including homewares, furniture, household appliances etc. An ‘indicative’ tenancy layout proposes 18,000m² retail, 19,500m² restricted retail, (‘bulky goods’ sales), and 3,000m² non-retail floor area. A discount department store, supermarket and mini-major, (like a Borders or Country Road type store), are also envisaged as anchor tenants for the extension. Note: The proponent seeks flexibility in the floor area distribution between retail and restricted retail use.

The non-retail floor space is to be divided up with 95m² allocated to the additional floor area for the auto service centre, 905m² for restaurant and 2000m² gymnasium. Refer Attachment 7 for a schedule of proposed uses.

A new three level carpark is proposed between the L-shape building extension and the existing southern at-grade ‘Myer’ carpark, (which has prior approval for a three level carpark). A total of 1,414 car spaces are proposed to be provided in addition to the existing 8,080 spaces serving Chadstone Shopping Centre. An external street and two level open retail / café environment will separate the new carpark and building.

The extension will be constructed behind the existing 3 metre wall provided along Capon St and Castlebar Rd, with a perimetre service road proposed directly between the building and wall. The proposed building setback from the boundary wall is a minimum of 20.3 metres.

The existing Kmart Auto Service Centre is to be extended and relocated to the ground level north east ‘Coles’ car park, near Virginia Grove. The auto service centre will be a single storey building attached to the lower level car park. The new auto service centre is proposed to have a maximum floor area of 360 square metres, (currently 244 square metres).

I went past chaddie today and was very surprised to see what looks like the frame an additional level on the existing David Jones. Does anyone know how much floorspace this will add?

No extension to DJ's just another level of offices. Not too certain what the floor space is, but no retail.

Brandon Park is where it's at. :D
My parents live about 500 metres from it. The small/medium size shopping centre I know of :D

And Tays....I used to work at The City of Casey in the Valuations Department.. we had to do the supplementary rating vals during the period in which Fountain Gate trebled in size....was an absolute nightmare trying to get plans and info from Westfield....

Originally posted by Blabbyboy
I went to Westfield Parramatta in Sydney, which is the largest in Sydney, apparently, and to be honest, it feels like an oversized Box Hill Central/Forrest Hill (OK, maybe not Forrest Hill :D). It's quite unremarkable IMHO. It does NOT compare to Chadstone, Doncaster, Southland, Glen, Highpoint, etc etc (Melb shopping centres generally). In particular, it doesn't have the "open" feel of Melb shopping centres, with lots of space, high ceilings, glass skylights, etc. And from the outside it looks...um...bad.

Btw, I didn't know that Fountain Gate was a major shopping centre. And...Centro's refurbed (rebuilt, actually) Whitehorse Plaza in Box Hill is reopening soon (replete with new tram line!). And...Westfield Doncaster has plans to double in size.

You have to remember that Westfield Parramatta is on a much smaller site than Chadstone and therefore they have to build up (hence the five levels) and getting the sun onto those lower levels can be a bit difficult.

And I cannot see any real difference in the openess of Chadstone with Parramatta. Parramatta is fairly open when compared to Chadstone even though I've to Parramatta once and TV footage of the place eg the men leaping to death inside.

Cool, Melbourne is developing it's very own 'Trapper Keeper', that will engulf everything:

http://sp24-7.lambtron.com/grabs/413/trapper95.JPG http://sp24-7.lambtron.com/grabs/413/trapper94.JPG http://sp24-7.lambtron.com/grabs/413/trapper87.JPG http://sp24-7.lambtron.com/grabs/413/trapper96.JPG

:cool: :cool: :cool:

Tunnel call for retail centre
LOCALS protesting against the planned expansion of Chadstone Shopping Centre want a tunnel built so cars can bypass residential streets.

Resident spokesman Mark Thompson said the proposed expansion could mean more traffic, noise and pollution.
Chadstone owner Gandel Retail Management wants to expand the centre by 40,000 sq m and add 1400 car spaces.

Warrigal Rd would go from four lanes to eight lanes.

Locals voiced their opposition to Gandel's plans at a rally at the centre yesterday.

Mr Thompson said a tunnel was the best way to preserve residents' amenity.

Gandel regional manager Mike Harper said the protest was regrettable as the company had consulted the community and changed its plans as a result.
http://heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,8125006%255E2862,00.html

So they are planning on increasing the shopping area by 40%, yet are only planning on increasing the parking numbers by 17.5%

I'm sure that will help with the already congested traffic problems.


Ok, that's my 1 post for the year....see you in 2004.;)

Originally posted by Grollo
I went past chaddie today and was very surprised to see what looks like the frame an additional level on the existing David Jones. Does anyone know how much floorspace this will add?
I saw that as well, but I don't consider it a skyscraper just yet. :D

I think its just one more floor for DJs.

THey really need a rail line there! Extend the Alamein line and link it to the Dandenong Line near Murumbeena or somewhere!

That makes plenty of sense. After Camberwell the Alamein line isn't really being utilised to its full capabilities. It would be good if they extended it beyond Alamein to the Glen Waverley or Dandenong line.

I agree that they need to do something about roads going into Chadstone. I go there at least once a week, and hate going up that hill from the Warrigal Rd entrance. I tend to go down Waverley Rd and then left into Chadstone Rd, coming in at the David Jones/Borders entrance at 'the back'.

chadstone is big enough to make you forgot reality i dont think it should be any bigger unless i get a cut of the rentals!!!!!!!

That makes plenty of sense. After Camberwell the Alamein line isn't really being utilised to its full capabilities. It would be good if they extended it beyond Alamein to the Glen Waverley or Dandenong line.

Maybe a subway could be installed that could come off the Glen Waverley and Dandenong line. I know there's plenty of room for a subway entrance and exit just before the East Malvern station. Don't know about the Dandenong line though as never been on it.

I went to Westfield Parramatta in Sydney, which is the largest in Sydney, apparently, and to be honest, it feels like an oversized Box Hill Central/Forrest Hill (OK, maybe not Forrest Hill :D). It's quite unremarkable IMHO. It does NOT compare to Chadstone, Doncaster, Southland, Glen, Highpoint, etc etc (Melb shopping centres generally). In particular, it doesn't have the "open" feel of Melb shopping centres, with lots of space, high ceilings, glass skylights, etc. And from the outside it looks...um...bad.


Westfield Parramatta is pretty much the same size as Warringah Mall, with the difference of only a couple of thousand square metres, and the two centres, as the largest in Sydney, are very different in their format.

Warringah Mall is like a more traditional centre, surrounded by car parking and independent of an established retail area, whereas Parramatta (as mentioned by Fabian) is squeezed into a dense urban environment.

When I visited last month, I personally felt that Westfield Southland was very similar to Westfield Parramatta - with neither of them anywhere near the quality of Chadstone.

All shopping centres are shithouse!

End of story.

:)

Chadstone will only become "good" when it:

a) has a train station underneath
b) its car parking is out of sight as 20 level residentials are built on top of it
c) the enclosed "mall" (*shudder*) is opened up and the current retail space is used inside podiums with said 20 level residentials setback from said corridors, and
d) when hell freezes over.

:)

I gather you hate shopping centres tays ;)

no! not at all!

[/dry sarcasm]

;)

Did anyone from out this way see the article in the local paper? I tried to find it online but can't. Basically the further expansion is a major part of creating a high density zone around Knox City (obviously a reslut of the 2030 program). It involved introducing high to medium density housing in the areas bound by Stud and Scoresby rds, high street (Swinburne Tafe campus) Burwood and Mountain highways.

Anyways, I will clip the article and scan it when I have a spare few minutes to rub together. As for the expansion of Knox it included continuing the Ozone area all the way up to the Council Building, consolidating the remainder of the Knox Towerpoint site by joining it to the recent extensions, hotel and building a new library branch and cultural centre. Good plans indeed I say.
What's more the overall plan involved extending the tram line to Knox and building a rail line to the centre through Lewis park. Fantastic news.

Knox is already the countries largest centre at around 146 000sqm of retail space. These extensions will add to the centre around another 50 000sqm.
It will be near 200 000 sqm of retail space!! Amazing!

Don't think Gendel will like that too much *giggles*

MG2

Where's the line going to come from if it's through Lewis Park?

isn't that Park that blob of greenery just north of the SC?

I'm not sure tays if I'm thinking where you're thinking, but Lewis Park is the large reserve that sits out the back of Knox Ozone, near where Rebel Sport used to be.

It winds its way through the back of Lewis Road toward Boronia Road and Scoresby Rd. Logical connections would by the Bayswater or Boronia Station... both are public transport interchanges so I can't see how this would hurt... Not to mention this would solve the problem of no rail to Wantirna... it could even be extended on to Rowville from there terminating at Stud Park.

*the mind boggles*

MG2

Ditto tays..

Shopping centres may be convienient (and I do go to them myself sometimes) but they are mindless soulless characterless hubs of mundane moronville suburbia that attracts the mindless masses in their thousands. (Yes I'm a moron sometimes)

America has been completely overrun with Malls to the point that some cities barely have any independent street village style shopping whatsoever - which Melbourne is so famous for.

I'm not say we should all become leftie socialists and only watch movies at Cinema Nova and shop at bead shops in Warrandyte - but we have to be very mindful that the convenience of the shopping mall does not overrun out entire city as beautifully depicted by the South Park screen shots!

Having the worlds biggest & busiest shopping centre isn't something we should be proud of - but at least if we must have them we do tend to do them well, ala Knox Ozone

Ditto tays..

Shopping centres may be convienient (and I do go to them myself sometimes) but they are mindless soulless characterless hubs of mundane moronville suburbia that attracts the mindless masses in their thousands. (Yes I'm a moron sometimes)

America has been completely overrun with Malls to the point that some cities barely have any independent street village style shopping whatsoever - which Melbourne is so famous for.


The main culprit of the homogenisation of Australia's shopping centres is the concept of franchises. Australia is now the most franchised nation in the world, per head of population, with three times the number of franchise outlets (per capita) as the United States.

Every Westfield you go to has essentially the same stores, but is this entirely the fault of the shopping centre managers? You have to ask the question of why franchises have been so successful in Australia? And the answer is that it is what the consumer wants! The mass production of the same items over and over obviously has a cost benefit for the consumer as well, to an extent.

People like to shop at franchises because they know what they're getting when they purchase an item - brand recognition and an expected level of quality. The majority of the populous is a bit lame these days I think - not willing to take a risk on an unknown product, that hasn't been approved by the fact that several thousand other shoppers have purchased the same item in other franchises around the country.

But what can really be done about I wonder. The best that can be hoped for I think, is a re-design of shopping centres in Australia's town centres, to ensure that they are not entities unto themselves, and to be certain that they "interact" with the urban environent they sit in, rather than reject it.

I must admit that I love Chadstone, and while it probably represents the negatives of shopping malls in terms of being surrounded by parking lots and very inward looking, at least it has decent sized stores and a pleasant environment to be in (in terms of wide walkways, some sculptural elements etc.). Know looks cool...I'll have to head out there for a browse next time I'm in town.

http://www.theage.com.au/ffxMedia/urlmedia_id_1070732290532_/media/2003/12/10/Variables.type/11CHADSTONE_CHANGES.jpg

almost looks like an airport....

By Nassim Khadem
Urban affairs
October 31, 2004
The Age


After months of opposition from residents, traders and councils to the proposed expansion of Chadstone Shopping Centre, an independent panel has recommended its approval.

Chadstone owner Gandel Retail Management wants to expand the shopping centre by 40,500 square metres, add more than 1400 car parking spaces, and widen Middle Road.

The independent three-member panel, appointed in November last year by Planning Minister Mary Delahunty, recommended the proposed expansion go ahead with modifications. The recommendation came after 241 submissions were lodged, with 228 opposing aspects of the proposal.

Gandel's expansion would require an amendment to Stonnington City Council's planning scheme and a council permit. The expansion would include extra retail space, a gymnasium and a new food and drink area.

The panel said it was satisfied that the economic impact of the development would not jeopardise other traders or commercial centres nearby. Although the panel found that the proposed expansion "may not be an optimum outcome" in terms of Melbourne 2030 (the Government's planning blueprint) policy, its report said the increased activity would benefit the community.

The panel recommended better redesign of Middle Road, but suggested lifting the curfew - the gates to Middle Road are closed between 10pm and 6am to restrict noise.

Resident Mark Thompson said he was still concerned about noise and traffic associated with the expansion.

http://theage.com.au/articles/2004/10/30/1099028261071.html

an independent panel has recommended its approval.

ahahahaaaa

Sorry about the poor quality, but they came from the PDF report released late last week. More info to come soon!

http://img26.exs.cx/img26/7422/Chadstone.jpg

http://img40.exs.cx/img40/3856/Chadstone1.jpg

http://img26.exs.cx/img26/2260/Chadstone2.jpg

http://img26.exs.cx/img26/3209/Chadstone3.jpg

http://img23.exs.cx/img23/8461/Chadstone4.jpg

Wow, great work.

I thought it was going to be separate from the main shopping centre but as I can see it's directly connected and the road will go under.

Still don't get what they mean by widening Middle Road. Now all they need to get friggen public transport there. Grr!

But the 3d images look pretty good.

I live near Chadstone Shopping Centre, i am just waiting for the Gandel Group to make an offer to buy the house to expand Chadstone again!

A $100 million expansion of Eastland is also in early stages of planning, just for the record. That would be its third in the last 12 or so years. Knox and Chadstone also expanding...Strewth!

Blue

Eastland expanding again... a further $100million would make it quite a large centre. And they only finished the extensions around the same time as Knox. I guess Knox have plans as well already, and so do Chadstone so they aren't wasting time these days...

MG2

JUst one question out of curiosity.Is Chadstone the largest suburban shopping centre in Victoria?or is it Highpoint?

definitely not Highpoint.

Knox, Fountain Gate, Chadstone I believe, at least for the moment.

Hang on a minute.Ive been to knox and ive been to Highpoint.There is no way that Knox is as big as Highpoint.

Did you go before or after Knox's expansion? Because the numbers say Knox...

I was there about Jan or Feb 2004.

The further expansion of Chadstone Shopping Centre will be decided upon by the Stonnington City Council on Monday.

The previous recommendation debated late last year (2004) was amended to include the following as a condition of the permit:

"(g) The Owner to fund a detailed study in conjunction with the Department of Sustainability and Environment, Department of Infrastructure and Connex Trains on the feasibility, cost and benefits of extending the Alamein Train Line underground from Alamein to Oakleigh via East Malvern Train Station and Chadstone Shopping Centre.

AND

(h) The Owner to fund a detailed study in conjunction with the Department of Sustainability and Environment, Department of Infrastructure and Yarra Trams on the feasibility, cost and benefits of extending the #3 East Malvern Tram Line along Waverley Road from Darling Road to East Malvern Train Station."

The two amendments above were referred to the Department of Infrastructure – Ray Kinnear, Director of Public Transport Planning, Public Transport Division who stated the following

"A more strategic approach is suggested for requiring a detailed study regarding public transport services such as: "The Owner to fund a regional transport study, in conjunction with the Department of Sustainability and Environment, Department of Infrastructure and public transport operators, with a focus on Chadstone incorporating among other initiatives a detailed assessment of potential regional public transport initiatives such [as] train, tram and bus network extensions ".

The original recommendation above (g) & (h) have been replaced by the following:

The Owner to fund a regional transport study, in conjunction with the Department of Sustainability and Environment, Department of Infrastructure and public transport operators, with a focus on Chadstone incorporating among other initiatives a detailed assessment of potential regional public transport initiatives such train, tram and bus network extensions.

Yipeeeee :D

Actually not Yipee :-(

DOI hate public transport and consider that anything other than improving bus services is a waste of money.

It means that instead of a real study into the benefits of fixed rail extensions there will be a white wash of a report (which will take three years to complete) designed to support the DOI view that fixed rail extensions are uneconomical and that improvements to existing bus services is all that is required for Chadstone :-(

It also means that Gandel gets away with being able to change planning scheme so they can make millions of dollars of extra profit but they won't have to pay for any public transport improvements to cope with the traffic mess, which will only get worse and worse.

Grollo, I understand what your saying, but it was the best thing I could do. The initial recomendation had nothing about extending tram or train lines. It only talked about a few bus stops being moved and the new smart bus along Warrigal Rd, that was it. At least now we have some way of getting a study done!

God I hope the rail extension and tram extension get up. Im gonna have more certainty that the tram will be done, but it would be great for both to be done. The Alamein line would have new life brought into it and it would be fantastic for the area as traffic is horrendous.

im all for more trains and trams!!!

chaddy has way to many car parks its a concrete jungle

Yes! underground too! all the way to oakleigh! w00t
Tramline will be alright, but the route 97 should go where it was intended, down koonange road and up princess freeway, instead of ending outside my house, oh well.

Look I don't think a shopping centre that far out of Oakeigh will ever attract customers, no train or tram and Oakleigh offers shops to suit locals, who wants to have to get in a car to shop? I do hear Myer will participate???? But with a large store in the city is that really needed. The open grass there is a small break between suburbia and the convent. I have heard on the telly that this sort of development has taken off in the USA but does that mean it will work here?

^ what??? ...exactly are you talking about?

____________________________________

anyhow:

A rail line between Alamein and Oakleigh could mean cutting the #700 in half (like it should be) with all the extra buses beefing up services between Mentone and Oakleigh, and the Northern part (that goes Oakleigh > Chadstone > Surrey Hills and would become redundant) could be turned into a series of local buses feeding Chadstone.

I don't understand why Gandel haven't done this sooner, surely a train station is going to be a nothing short of sensation for their business - I mean just think of all the under 18 year olds who don't have a licence who would flood the place even more.

7000 or so car parks as is, compared with say 5000 and a rail line running on 10" frequency plus all the other bus routes feeding the centre - they could easily shit it in.

*shrug*

Look I don't think a shopping centre that far out of Oakeigh will ever attract customers, no train or tram and Oakleigh offers shops to suit locals, who wants to have to get in a car to shop? I do hear Myer will participate???? But with a large store in the city is that really needed. The open grass there is a small break between suburbia and the convent. I have heard on the telly that this sort of development has taken off in the USA but does that mean it will work here?

You do realize that Chadstone has been where's it's been for several decades now? And it is (sadly [from a certain point of view]) a very popular place, and very big place.

Red Baron is obviously taking the piss. I don't think it would be possible for someone to come up with such a series of disjointed arguments, questions and ideas all in one post and actually call it legit.

Bring on the train extension though. Sorely needed.

I do hear Myer will participate???? But with a large store in the city is that really needed.

Unless you've been living under a rock for the past few decades (sure seems like it), Myer have established many stores throughout Melbourne and Australia.

But the Myer expansion of Chadstone was completed several years ago, I'm not sure why they would need to do any more. And Chadstone isn't exactly that isolated, it's within walkable distance to Hughesdale station.

To be realistic though, I still find that a rail extension is unlikely, as much as I would want it to be done.

It's about a 10 min walk from Hughesdale, so a rail extention in my opinion is unwarranted, public transport is already unprofitable, and what type of patronage would a rail extention attract, most people drive in the comfort of their cars when going to Chaddy. I mean I live in Thomastown, now why would I want to take a train in the city, change trains for another line just to go shopping. A whole 2 hours or at least 1hr50 just to get there. Driving is about 35 mins, I know which one I would choose.

It's about a 10 min walk from Hughesdale, so a rail extention in my opinion is unwarranted, public transport is already unprofitable, and what type of patronage would a rail extention attract, most people drive in the comfort of their cars when going to Chaddy. I mean I live in Thomastown, now why would I want to take a train in the city, change trains for another line just to go shopping. A whole 2 hours or at least 1hr50 just to get there. Driving is about 35 mins, I know which one I would choose.

How about we impose a new tax which directly relates to the amount of road usage each individual acrues so as these people can actually pay the real amount it costs to maintain each road needed to travel on in order to take you to Chadstone and everywhere else for that matter?

Unwarranted? Under a rock? Clue? ...anyone?

Pfft tays, I wouldnt train to Chadstone. I wouldn't even take a tram.

Why would you? You can't buy more than a few things.
And imagine buying something heavy or oddly shaped.

It is not profitable-Tays this is not Europe, Melbourne is vastly suburban therefore public transport really is not the best option although it would be great. Driving a car is the easier more viable option for consumers.

Until public transport becomes and equally efficient service that car travel is then I cant see it happening.

Travelling to the CBD on the other hand I have always and will allways endorse public transport. It is usually efficient on the Epping line and it saves money in regards to parking. It is just easier to train it into the city than it is to drive, but to train it to chadstone that a whole different story.

well I know you wouldn't, because you live in an area that wouldn't see much benefit, however let's broaden our perspective on things shall we?

Linking Oakleigh with Alamein opens up a whole new way at looking at train travel in Eastern / South Eastern Melbourne: Dandenong & Oakleigh get rail links between Camberwell and Box Hill - all major and primary activity centres under Melbourne2030, there comes a chance to finally fix bus routes in the area so as they feed and don't compete with rail and best of all: the case for high-density concentration in Dandenong, Springvale, Clayton, Oakleigh, Camberwell and Box Hill becomes relevant as it has the PT to support it, which would lessen the NIMBY effect as the first thing they'd complain about is the extra cars on the road if they didn't beef up PT, notwithstanding the fact higher-concentration in these areas probably won't take off as much without the PT.

remember, the main opposition to Chadstone expansion is the increased traffic levels. And IMO it makes perfect business sense for Gandel to pay for any station underneath its centre as they're the ones who would reap the rewards of such a projects. Train line: can move more people in an out of the centre than its 7000 or so car parks and more people in Chadstone = higther rents for Gandel.

It is not profitable-Tays this is not Europe, Melbourne is vastly suburban therefore public transport really is not the best option although it would be great. Driving a car is the easier more viable option for consumers.

Until public transport becomes and equally efficient service that car travel is then I cant see it happening.

Travelling to the CBD on the other hand I have always and will allways endorse public transport. It is usually efficient on the Epping line and it saves money in regards to parking. It is just easier to train it into the city than it is to drive, but to train it to chadstone that a whole different story.

why does it have to be 'profitable' to run? you're logic seems to be set in some concrete driveway somewhere out in the burbs - surpirse surprise.

how many billions get poured down the drains on roads without -any- government getting a return on investment, irrespective of political persuasion? a lot more than you pay in rego & tolls on Citylink that's for sure - roads are no more 'profitable' than how you assume PT to be just as 'profitable' - they're exactly the same, one just happens to be a service that the government provides at a much greater cost to its budget than if they put their money into PT. You, like the millions of other car-dependent residents of this city take it for granted.

And anyhow, Public transport routes become profitable (i.e they get more back in fares than it costs to run each individual route) after governments back the routes up, advertise them and offer services that are actually useful, so as it comes to a point where the government can wind back money on the profitable routes (which in effect pay for themsevles) then they can move the money into less profitable routes thus allowing more people good access to decent public transport.

Lol.
I never said anything about not having a link between oakleigh and alamein.
I said I doubt anyone would take a train to chadstone. Buses already do the same routes and more.
Sure, people from futher away could now get to chadstone. But why would they go all that distance just to go to chaddy rather than taking a bus to some other shopping center closer by?

Lol.
I never said anything about not having a link between oakleigh and alamein.
I said I doubt anyone would take a train to chadstone. Buses already do the same routes and more.

no they don't. Buses go round in circles taking twice as much time to get to their destination.

Sure, people from futher away could now get to chadstone. But why would they go all that distance just to go to chaddy rather than taking a bus to some other shopping center closer by?

I know people who travel to Southland, Chadstone and Knox from my area just to visit the same shops they could find in Fountain Gate, sounds ludicrous I know, it does happen though - but you're missing the point, the rail line wouldn't be built for the direct benefit of some shazza from Narre trying to think she's cool by shopping at Chadstone, think about how much a new freeway changes things, think about how it changes commuting patters (i.e what will happen once the Mitcham-Franga opens), it'll create employment shifts, retail shifts, and a multitude of other things, the same thing would happen if this short rail link were to ever eventuate: except it would be a 'smarter' change, it would directly influence the current governments planning strategy. It's not just a small area (Chadstone) that would benefit, it's a whole region that would benefit. Chadstone just happens to be a very well located (in terms of the path the link would take) and juicy revenue generator which makes the link much more relevant.

One example is that people can realistically get a faster-than-driving route to their office in Camberwell (Penguin Books HQ, ACER HQ and Netspace HQ to name a few big employers within a 5 minute walk of Wellers station) from the South, the South East and again, it connects nodes that would simply expolde with development: Dandenong, [Springvale, Clayton], Oakleigh, Camberwell [and Box Hill].

You keep argueing for the oakleigh to alamein line. For the second time, I'm not against that.

But a station at chadstone is pointless. I don't think you understand that people *prefer* driving to shopping centres. You can't quickly head off to the shops on the train. You can't buy anything large and take it home by train. You can't leave whenever you want on the train. It defeats the quick and easy point of a shopping centre.
Yes, all the little kiddies will now be able to "hang" at chadstone for slightly longer as their new train saves them 5minutes! But for people who actually go to *buy* things and do their weekly shopping its pointless.

How can you say it's pointless when there's already a marketbase for it?

Think of all the underage teenyboppers who currently go through Hughesdale station to get there... Think of all the grannies who catch the bus to go there (and of which those bus routes that exist can be altered to feed existing train stations)... and more importantly: think of the amount of people it would attract to the place.

You can't tell me that every single car park in Chadstone has a car which has at least 3 people in every car, full of shopping bags (i.e food shopping bags) where yes a car still would be the best way to get to and from Chadstone.

So if you lived in Clayton / Westall / Camberwell / Alamein / Hawthorn you'd still drive, even though you're not going to buy lots of things that require a car - when you could do it for cheaper (Zone 2 2 hour is how much? EXACTLY!) and get there quicker?

Westall - Oakleigh: 7 minutes + 3 to Chadstone and you're there, right on the doorstep to speak, with no car park fuckery.
Camberwell - Alamein: 11 minutes + 5 to Chadstone.
Box Hill - Camberwell: 12 minutes (stop all, 7 minutes express) + 16 minutes to Chadstone.
Dandenong - Oakleigh: 19 minutes + 3 to Chadstone.

I'd love to see anyone try and do those trips by car from a standing stop in a car park near those stations to Chadstone's frontdoor (involving parking in Chadstone) in those timeframes or better.

How is a massive revenue/patronage generator pointless? :lol:

rofl at your times.
lets break your dandenong to oakleigh one.
First off you have to *get* to the station. Say on average 7 minutes? Unless of course the person has to take a bus to get station.
Second you can wait up to 20 minutes for a train. So we'll say on average the wait is another 10 minutes. Thats of course when the trains haven't been connexed(cancelled)
Third is your 19minute oakleigh - dandenong.
Fourth is 10 minutes waiting at oakleigh for the chadstone line train.
and lastly is you 3 minute guestimate from oakleigh to chady.

7+10+19+10+3 = 49 minutes. Alot longer than your 22minutes hey?

---------------->

there goes the point.

What did I say earlier about exploding development in major and primary activity centres? 'exploding development' denotes residential development - have a look at Westall station, there's a bigarse medium-density development sprouting right now - all these nodes will have significant amounts of residential grouped around or near these PT nodes in 10-20 years - there's no question that population, even if it's a small amount, will increase around these areas. And if the government were to fix its current problem of feeder routes (buses should feed nodes and stations in particular, not run beside / in competition with them), then the speed of PT will increase further.

Dandenong - Oakleigh currently has a 15" headway, that's likely to get better in the short term as the Pakenham line is the next contender for service increase (30" to 15 headways + Cranbourne's 30" will make Dandenong - City (Oakleigh) 10" headways).
Between Alamein and the city there is a 15 minute wait also for a train, it is very likely that a new extension would go to Oakleigh, then form the Wellington Road line to Rowville, no reason for frequencies to change, unless they go up to 10 minutes (Which is very likely).
Between the city and Camberwell the longest you wait for a train is 10 minutes or better from memory.

If you live near a station, why wouldn't you time your walk so you arrive with a couple of minutes to spare at the station? you're only looking at the maximum, not average, the average wait will approximately be half of what you've stated. We could easily look at the maximum time it takes to drive there from any point - think about people who work at Chadstone, so naturally are with everyone else in peak hour traffic, a commute to work in Chadstone from Dandenong could easily turn into 45 minutes and I suspect that it would be around that time.

But that's only looking at time.

a train ride(s) from Dandenong to Chadstone, Hawthorn to Chadstone, Box Hill to Chadstone or Westall to Chadstone is far less stressful & far more convenient & cheaper than driving in peak hour - time is roughly the same as driving (better in some cases), but you're neglecting the other benefits dan!

I think people would like to catch the train to Chadstone and Southland at busy times because they are sick of driving around getting angrier and angrier because there is not one empty car space out of 8500 and finally getting fed up nad leaving before they get so angry that they get out of the car and start smacking heads with a club lock :-)

Fixed Rail to Chadstone will make life easier for people who drive and park as well, so everybody wins!

The other, most simple and inexpensive of public transport projects that would have huge benefits for commuters is extending the tram line southward from where it turns towards the city down Burke Road all the way to Caulfield station (terminus on Sir John Monash Drive, with a connection to the #3 route). Not only is it a new feeder route for Caulfield, Gardiner and Camberwell, but it can used as a northward extension of the Frankston line to Caulfield (easy transfer at Caulfield station), allows anyone living on the Burnley Group of lines quick access to Monash Caulfield and the extra services would boost frequencies in the Camberwell area (where it's most needed and would be used the most if a proper tram to train interchange were built facing Burke Road at the station to serve all the offices to the North and south of the station). That extension would probably cost about $15 to build plus a few more for the extra trams needed to give a frequency of about 8".

You can't keep building car parks at Chadstone and expect it to be easier to get there and to leave! The traffic conjestion is huge and the car parks huge, so the more car park the more conjestion. The bus services at Chadstone are poor and the suburbs to teh north and east of Chadstoen are not well linked via public transport. And remember, there are a number of people both old and young who can't drive and rely on PT. A train station would bring a hell of a lot more people to the centre then come there at the moment.

I like the fact they are making this place so huge... It just means it's all contained and out of my sight :D

But there is a train station less than 10 mins away??

More like 20 minutes away with shopping bags in hand and an umbrella let alone a shopping cart or kids ina pram etc..!!!

I've walked it lol

10 mins-

I must agree though if a station were to service the centre it would be great, but there needs to be feasablity studies to assess what type of patronage it would attract-For example on the 23rd of December when they conduct 24 hours trading, I know I see so many people there from my area-Thomastown that it is a migration. The traffic is horrendous and the parking is somthing left to be desired, but I cant really see any of those people using public transport.

What type of patronage would it attract, young teeny boppers and the elderly.....and then who???

maybe you should have thought about re-reading everything that is said before you posted and edited a few posts back.

I Changed this one too....

Understandably urban design is not part of my Architecture degree, but at the same time the two studies are interlocked and I have a great interest in Urban Design. I understand where you are coming from in regards to public transport, I would love to see the extension of many tram lines and a re-focusing of attention onto public transport.

My main argument is that until it becomes an equally easy, clean, effcient viable option for car travel I just cant see it happening.

Who in the middle of winter would want to walk 5mins, 10mins or even catch a bus to the nearest train station, when there is a thick fog, the air temperature is 6 C degrees, when they have a car waiting for them less than 5 metres away.

I know where you are coming from, but I am just being a realest. The lack of population density at this current time in the suburban area would make many, not all, transport modifications unprofitable and not viable.

If future population nodes that are in the planning now appear to already be creating some interest, I say impliment these upgrades now, but unfortunatley urban design in Australia tends to upgrade infastructure after the population has moved in rather than laying it down first, with foresight.

so which 'mic' posted this post? nevertheless

I Changed this one too....

Understandably urban design is not part of my Architecture degree, but at the same time the two studies are interlocked and I have a great interest in Urban Design.

You don't need an urban design qualification or architecture degree to acknowledge the need for a public transport upgrade in the burbs - you just need to use the existing system.

My main argument is that until it becomes an equally easy, clean, effcient viable option for car travel I just cant see it happening.

well you made that obvious a while ago, do you understand the economic term 'comparative advantage'? you don't need things to be equal (what you perceive to be equal - in reality there would be no point to make things equal as people would still drive) for a project such as this to succeed.

Who in the middle of winter would want to walk 5mins, 10mins or even catch a bus to the nearest train station, when there is a thick fog, the air temperature is 6 C degrees, when they have a car waiting for them less than 5 metres away.

Ask about 250,000 people who do that in the CBD every day on those specific days (of which we have max 5 a year?).

I know where you are coming from, but I am just being a realest.

Conversely a realist would also acknowledge the deadlock that currently exists re: existing transportation in the area & the need for change IMO.

The lack of population density at this current time in the suburban area would make many, not all, transport modifications unprofitable and not viable.

A rail line to Doncaster, Rowville, the Chadstone connection and many many many tram line extensions would be well patronised if they were integrated and fed properly mainly by buses - that's where Melbourne's main problem lies. Higher-population densities simply add more people in a smaller area boosting patronage and the likelihood of routes paying for themselves.

If future population nodes that are in the planning now appear to already be creating some interest, I say impliment these upgrades now, but unfortunatley urban design in Australia tends to upgrade infastructure after the population has moved in rather than laying it down first, with foresight.

why defuse what you said should be done with your last sentence - you want to keep at everything in stalemate? no thanks.

A little off the topic but I think is a good idea to improve public transport in the burbs. Establish ferry links along the main waterways, especially the Maribrynong (City to Brimbank) and Yarra rivers with stops at key points along the river. A few benefits:

1. It's relatively cheap (no need to lay expensive tracks or build expensive stations)
2. There are plenty of available areas to establish car parks so people can drive to the pick-up point (especially unused defence land)
3. No traffic lights
4. Areas along these rivers are currently poorly serviced
5. It would alleviate traffic/parking problems at existing stations
6. Ticketing could be the same as the Zone 1, 2 and 3 tickets
7. There are major growth areas along these rivers with old defence land being taken up by housing projects and at docklands
8. It's a quick form of transportation
9 Cycle tracks could be improved (to link up to these stops)

A negative I can see is that speed limits along the rivers would need to be increased.

Any thoughts..

Cheers
Homerj

I Changed this one too....

Understandably urban design is not part of my Architecture degree, but at the same time the two studies are interlocked and I have a great interest in Urban Design. I understand where you are coming from in regards to public transport, I would love to see the extension of many tram lines and a re-focusing of attention onto public transport.

My main argument is that until it becomes an equally easy, clean, effcient viable option for car travel I just cant see it happening.

Who in the middle of winter would want to walk 5mins, 10mins or even catch a bus to the nearest train station, when there is a thick fog, the air temperature is 6 C degrees, when they have a car waiting for them less than 5 metres away.

I know where you are coming from, but I am just being a realest. The lack of population density at this current time in the suburban area would make many, not all, transport modifications unprofitable and not viable.

If future population nodes that are in the planning now appear to already be creating some interest, I say impliment these upgrades now, but unfortunatley urban design in Australia tends to upgrade infastructure after the population has moved in rather than laying it down first, with foresight.

What Tayser said to this post and the general discussions I agree with fully. The thing is that while nothing has been done in any of our lifetimes to change the car dependent culture, we need to think a little laterally. Firstly who would've thought 15 years ago that the CBD would become one of the fastest growing residential areas??

The facts are as follows -
* The population is expected to increase by 1 million in 25 years (500,000 in 12 years)
* The current freeway system therefore simply won't cope with car usage at todays levels.
* There is almost no feasable option to extend the freeway network substatially because there still will be nowhere to park at the destinations
* PT is the only option to alleviate these problems and there are currently massive gaps in all aspects of the network.
*In terms of the density being too low for PT - look up the PTUA website and see their stats about Toronto, which is a similarly low density city with a highly effective PT network.

Anyway having lived in London and Europe (working as an Architect in urban planning) without a car for the last two and a half years, any claims that you can't operate happily on PT is bullsh*t. Most shopping CAN be carried quite easily and there is a thing called HOME DELIVERY for the bigger things. If this weren't the case then the CBD would be a retail desert!!!

The biggest issue is whether any government has the balls to think outside the electoral cycle and make the decisions that if not made now, will cost us all alot more in the long run.

I suspect that Bracks is holding out on big PT decisions until closer till the election next year, to help to alleviate some of the negative fallout from the scoresby tolls. That would be the smart political thing to do IMHO - announce a doncaster and rowville (via chaddy) rail projects as an election promise BEFORE anything is done on them so he can't cop flak for f**king them up like the RFR.

My 2 cents worth anyway

What is the current transport patronage and what is it's annual growth rate??

Current patronage and growth is very low for the simple reason that existing services serve no use to anyone other than the people who are desperate to use it. Inducing demand by investing in the services will yield greater and much different results as compared to the current patronage and growth.

But for people who actually go to *buy* things and do their weekly shopping its pointless.

Yep like the 2.3 million journeys that use PT on Saturday/Sunday to go to the City and shop.
Like the 400,000 that go to the Vic market by tram every year.
Like the 230,000 that go to South Melbourne and St Kilda by tram every year.
Like the 180,000 That will use a train this year to go to Box hill and shop till they drop!
Like the 1.2 million that go to Prahran Train station and Chapel street trams to Shop, eat, and have fun.

Their using PT even if you yourself wish to generalize that, 'it's too hard to do it that way' and everyone must think like you!


Sorry to be harsh if I was but mate there are people who use PT and will continue to do so!

I bet you complained when the SE was tolled!

I've walked it lol

10 mins-

I must agree though if a station were to service the centre it would be great, but there needs to be feasablity studies to assess what type of patronage it would attract-For example on the 23rd of December when they conduct 24 hours trading, I know I see so many people there from my area-Thomastown that it is a migration. The traffic is horrendous and the parking is somthing left to be desired, but I cant really see any of those people using public transport.

What type of patronage would it attract, young teeny boppers and the elderly.....and then who???

Guessing

100%
10% teens
30% elderly
10% housewives with skids
10% Unistudents
40% People going to Armidale and Camberwell or to Monash from Camberwell.

If anyone's questioning whether to build a line to a major shopping centre - don't. Most of Sydney's shopping centres are located near a rail station (Miranda, Parramatta, Bondi Junction, Hornsby, Liverpool to name a few).

As for their usefulness? Miranda station is reasonably busy at most times of day. And there are definitely more than just the young and the elderly using the station. There are also definitely more than 10% teens using Miranda, although admittedly the presence of a high school within walking distance of the station does kindof explain that - but many of them stop there in the arvo's anyway. Many of 'em walk through the shopping centre to get to/from school like I used to.

There are also two other (smaller) shopping centres in Miranda which are within walking distance, although Kiora Mall's a joke, and only stays open because the RTA's in there. If/when the RTA moves out, bye bye Kiora Mall (and good riddance I might add).

Don't forget Chatswood and North Sydney, both of which are either right next to or under major shopping centres and they are used a hell of a lot by shoppers and others.

Don't forget students who attend school in Booroondara or Stonnington who would use the line to change from outer suburban lines rather then go into South Yarra or Richmond and change there, they coudl change at East Malvern or Camberwell or Oakleigh!

Yes lets just "guess" figures. I guess a monkey will ride the train on tuesdays every second leap year. Woo.
I *like* the tolls on the SE freeway. Whenever I use it the traffic is very light. Makes a very predictable airport run.

Yes lets just "guess" figures. I guess a monkey will ride the train on tuesdays every second leap year. Woo.
I *like* the tolls on the SE freeway. Whenever I use it the traffic is very light. Makes a very predictable airport run.

I predict that someone in your family will be seriously injured in a road accident leading to some major or minor permanent impairment if it already hasn't happened.

How can I do that?

The numbers say so! :bash:

Or prehaps we should remain ignorant of that and never try to improve anything related to PT! Yeah I can live with pushing my Doughter around in a wheel chair!

The Age (http://www.theage.com.au/news/National/Grim-future-for-transport/2005/02/20/1108834659703.html) A leaked report has called on the State Government to invest in public transport.

The State Government needs to drop its debt-shy approach to public finance and borrow hundreds of millions of dollars to improve public transport and roads if it is to salvage its troubled planning blueprint, Melbourne 2030.

In a confidential draft report on Government transport policy, a high-level advisory group has warned that without a dramatic increase in transport spending, Melbourne 2030 is doomed.

The leaked report by the Melbourne 2030 Implementation Reference Group says the Government has failed to commit funds to, or even acknowledge the need for, the major transport improvements necessary under the planning blueprint.

Opposition transport spokesman Terry Mulder said the leaked report showed that Transport Minister Peter Batchelor had failed.

"His own hand-picked group have bagged the Metropolitan Transport Plan and this simply highlights what most Victorians think about this Government: it lacks vision and it's not prepared to match its promises with dollars," he said.

Asked whether the Liberals supported increased public borrowing for infrastructure, Mr Mulder said it was not necessary. He said the Government had wasted hundreds of millions on unnecessary projects such as regional fast rail and the Spencer Street Station redevelopment.

Last night a Government spokeswoman said Mr Batchelor would not comment without seeing the reference group report.
WHAT NEEDS DOING

- Public transport extensions in growth areas - Epping, South Morang and Rowville
- A third track on the Dandenong rail line
- Rail line to Doncaster
- Elimination of level crossing
- A road link between the Eastern and Tullamarine freeways

I predict that someone in your family will be seriously injured in a road accident leading to some major or minor permanent impairment if it already hasn't happened.


right. By saying I don't think you need a trainstation at Chadstone I have said we should remove all future PT.
Ok then.

Too Hung Over from our Xmas Staff Party , to copy and paste :)

http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/chaddy-about-to-get-a-whole-lot-bigger/2005/12/21/1135032080207.html :)

^^I'm not so lazy.

From The Age

Chaddy about to get a whole lot bigger

By Royce Millar
December 22, 2005

AUSTRALIA'S largest shopping centre is about to get a lot larger with a State Government decision to allow a $200 million expansion of Chadstone.

In a contentious pre-Christmas move, Planning Minister Rob Hulls will today formalise approval for a 40,500-square-metre increase of the Gandel-owned centre — almost half the existing shopping space.

The proposed expansion will rile some residents, traders in nearby shopping centres and planning experts who believe growth of the car-based shopping centres is at odds with pro-public transport policies.

Last night, Mr Hulls defended the decision, which he said he made just 48 hours after receiving advice from officers.

He said the expansion was in line with the Government's metropolitan planning blueprint Melbourne 2030, in which Chadstone was identified as as principal activity centre where growth should be concentrated.

"It will also provide a further economic boost for Melbourne's south-east, with the potential to create 2500 construction jobs and 1100 full and part-time jobs at the centre."

In approving the expansion, Mr Hulls dropped a condition sought by the local Stonnington Council under which the council called for the Government and Gandel to study transport to Chadstone, including the possible construction of a rail link.

Last night, ward councillor Steve Stefanopoulos said he was disappointed by the Government's failure to consider rail links to the centre.

Melbourne University transport and planning lecturer Paul Mees criticised the Chadstone decision, which he said was contradictory to the Government's claims that it wanted to encourage Melburnians to use public transport.

Dr Mees said Chadstone was counter to government district centre policy when it opened and every expansion since then had been at odds with government policy.

"By encouraging car-based shopping malls to expand, it makes a mockery of all the statements in Melbourne 2030 about encouraging people to use public transport more," he said.

Mr Hulls stressed that the expanded Chadstone would include a public transport interchange for buses, including an "airport-style" waiting lounge, with cafe, lockers and showers.

Under the scheme, known as Chadstone Place, the centre will extend to the south-east in an area occupied by a former Catholic University, involving major changes to Warrigal and Middle roads.

Surrounding traders in centres such as Glenferrie, Carnegie and Oakleigh are likely to be upset by the Government's decision to allow Gandel flexibility in how it uses the new shopping area.

Under a scheme backed by the Stonnington Council, Gandel would been required to devote half the new retail area to bulky goods or homemaker shopping. Mr Hulls has reduced that requirement to about one-quarter of the space for bulky goods and allowing the Gandel to extend existing smaller-scale retail.

Residents in surrounding streets had opposed the proposed expansion and held community protests two years ago about the potential loss of homes and the expected dramatic increase in traffic. Gandel has since bought homes to make way for the expan- sion.

Mr Hulls described Chadstone as a "shopping icon".

"This expansion will see it continue as a frontrunner through a range of improvements such as access for pedestrians from surrounding neighbourhoods and promotion of environmental performance," he said.

^^Good to see Aussie Steve in action. :)
A rail connection should have been part of this expansion!! :bash:

I would've liked a tram connection.

I would have liked both!

I would have liked this:

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/viney.nancy/bttfpics/images/dmc28.jpg

EDIT: Yeah that to ^^

yeah both would of been good, get the east malvern tram going to oakleigh and that undreground trainline too.

Mr Hulls stressed that the expanded Chadstone would include a public transport interchange for buses, including an "airport-style" waiting lounge, with cafe, lockers and showers.

Folks, I think you're all ignoring the bigger issue here. You're all focusing on such piddly little details like rail links, and tram connections - it's all irrelevant.

What is truly a leap forward in infrastructure design is the ability to cleanse onself whilst waiting for transportation. Many's the time I've been stranded outside the local shopping emporium whilst waiting for a streetcar or trackless trolley, surrounded by hooligans and louts that could, quite frankly, benefit from a good stiff session with the tar soap.

Yeah, it'd be funny if it wasn't so dumb. Showers indeed.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/small-traders-predict-backlash-over-chadstone/2005/12/22/1135032135992.html

From The Age

Small traders predict backlash over Chadstone

By Liz Minchin and Royce Millar
December 24, 2005

TRADERS' groups from suburbs surrounding the Chadstone Shopping Centre have ridiculed a plan to mimic a local shopping strip at the giant complex.

As The Age revealed yesterday, the State Government has approved a $200 million expansion of the centre — which already boasts it is the largest in the southern hemisphere — to create a new cafe and shopping strip called Chadstone Place in the south-east corner of the site.

The Chadstone centre is run by Gandel Retail Management. Its planning and research manager, Bernard McNamara, said yesterday Chadstone Place would be designed to woo customers from booming local shopping strips.

"The community now has a different perception of what's a nice place," Mr McNamara said. "I think it's generations X and Y and a movement of people looking for what is an important place for them. Maybe in a global world, local places have become far more significant."

Traders from neighbouring suburbs said they had concerns about the redevelopment, but several predicted Chadstone's expansion could drive people back to strip shopping centres.

"It's mayhem getting into Chadstone now, and it can only get worse if it gets bigger, so in a way (it) makes it easier for us to succeed in our street," the Glenferrie Road Malvern Business Association's president, David McKenna, said.

"To say it doesn't concern me is wrong. But whatever they do, they can't replicate a strip centre like ours, where you have a mix of independent stores and where we support all the local schools and charities. Chadstone doesn't have that feel and it never will."

The presidents of the Carnegie and Murrumbeena traders' associations, both within two kilometres of Chadstone, agreed. "I've been a trader here for 10 years and this area has been growing even as Chadstone has expanded, because people really do want to see a familiar face when they walk into their butcher or fruit shop," Gerald Galatis, from the Carnegie Traders Association, said.

"Most locals don't really care what Chadstone gets up to, we're quite happy with our unusual little shopping village here," Paul Rosser, from the Murrumbeena Chamber of Commerce, said.

The Camberwell Centre Association's president, Henk Kelly-Kobes, said he thought Chadstone was too big, and expansion was "madness".

"Our customers hate Chadstone with a passion, because they're sick of fighting to get through car parks and the long, long walks to get anywhere," he said. "It's all too much hassle. I don't think we'll lose any customers."

Planning Minister Rob Hulls defended the State Government's decision to allow Gandel to expand its smaller-scale shops, saying an independent planning panel had found local businesses would not be badly affected.