^actually China, aeons ago in Xian.


Correct.

Been looking over this thread. New York's famous 'grid' system was based on Lisbon's as far as I know.


As cited many times, city grids have been built ages ago in East Asia -- in Xian and Kyoto, for example. I can assure you that the Chicago and Manhattan grids were not based on these earlier models.

As with many other things in the USA, the origin of city grids is purely a question of ECONOMICS (i.e., money/greed). This partly explains the unprecidented scale relative to earlier systems. As succinctly stated in the Encyclopedia of Chicago:

The rectangular grid of roads, farms, and city streets, so common to the Middle West and the region's largest metropolis, is largely a byproduct of financial considerations. Congress, eager to sell western lands to pay off the national debt, passed the Land Ordinance of 1785, an essential step in these sales. The ordinance provided that each territory would employ a geographer to survey the land, dividing it into townships six miles square, with the "townships, or fractional parts of townships, by numbers progressively from south to north, always beginning each range with the number one." Within the townships, surveyors were to mark off square mile sections numbered from one to thirty-six. The numbered grid thus created was the beginning of a system in which clear title could be quickly determined—ideally designed for real estate sales. Chicago's grid fit neatly into the township pattern first established for the region by the 1785 Land Ordinance. Financial considerations again played a role in its implementation. Surveyor James Thompson laid out the town for the Canal Commissioners in preparation for the sale of lots to finance the proposed Illinois and Michigan Canal, with the first lots selling on September 4, 1830.


http://www.encyclopedia.chicagohistory.org/pages/410050.html

And in Manhattan:

What was new in the New York plan was the standardized system of long narrow blocks—and the almost complete absence of spaces or circles to relieve the relentless geometry of the grid. The grid was not laid out primarily with transportation in view. [@Martin, please take note!] Rather, the purpose of the grid was the rational exploitation of real estate. The city of the era relied on water transportation at its periphery.

http://www.aiga.org/200-years-on-the-grid/

The blocks in both Xian and Kyoto were based on the concept of wards, which were administrative units relating to clan and sometimes ethnicities. Financial considerations were secondary.


Even with the term 'skyscraper' there is European influence. The first iron- framed , glass curtain- walled building was built in Liverpool in 1864.


There had been IRON-frame buildings in Europe as early as the 18th century, but they are not true skyscrapers. It's a particular innovation in STEEL-frame construction combined with advances in plumbing technology AND the elevator made the Chicago and NYC skyscrapers a reality. It's a conjunction of all these that made HEIGHT possible.

Manhattan in New York is the most European of any city in the USA. Buildings and street ambience is similar to Paris or London or Madrid IMO. People in Manhattan are very fashionable ala Paris and London. Boston? A lot wear shorts in the streets, restaurants and bars, at least during the warm months.

Like every one else said Boston is the most European city

New York

New York

I also voted for New York :yes:

^^
I don't understand. New York is essence of USA. Skyscrapers, people from different backgrounds, greediness etc.

I always think NYC has a European feel about it. As in, people walk everywhere, wide pavements, nice parks, and café's etc

Maybe thats what makes Manhattan the most European, people WALK. This is because most of them use public transportation. In most of the other big American cities the use of private cars is more widespread. Specially in LA.

^^
I don't understand. New York is essence of USA. Skyscrapers, people from different backgrounds, greediness etc.


The feel of the city anywhere below 86th Street ( except Lower Eastside and Chinatown) is IMO, very European, hands down. It's that cosmopolitan feel that would remind you of London and Paris. Boston- it's like any big American city- a driving city.

People voted for Detroit and LA as a joke right?
I voted for Philly because the streets are narrow, but really, these are all American cities that don't feel european at all. Boston would have felt very european around 1900, but not now after all the horrible urban renewal.

People keep mentioning New Orleans and it's "french" nieghborhood. The architecture is actually from the spanish colonial period.

Are there any large US cities that do not have skyscrapers (except Washington DC)?

^^DC has skyscrapers.

I'd say New York, not really for the street scape or look, more about the culture. It's nothing like the (most) of the rest of America. People dress with style, it's more worldly, better food, it's more individual along with the people. Its less Walmart and more deli. And Its just doesn't have that feeling of suburbia that so many other American cities do.

^actually China, aeons ago in Xian.

I do remember reading that the reconstruction of Lisbon after it's earthquake in the mid 18thC, on a gridlike pattern, directly influenced the planning of New York. Anyway my point was to just illuminate how grid like American cities are not as American as certain posters on this thread think.

I do remember reading that the reconstruction of Lisbon after it's earthquake in the mid 18thC, on a gridlike pattern, directly influenced the planning of New York. Anyway my point was to just illuminate how grid like American cities are not as American as certain posters on this thread think.

It's not the grid per se that distingushes an American (i.e., US) city. It's the SCALE and UNIVERSALITY of the grid application that marks the cities as American.

If any of you guys had ever been to the small towns all over the American Midwest, you would see that almost ALL of them (no matter how small) are laid out on grid or gridiron patterns. Lisbon is fine, but do you see EVERY city and town in the Iberian penninsula laid out that way?

The answer is obviously NO. The Ancient Far East is the closest analogy to this feature of American cities, but even the ancient Chinese, Japanese, and Southeast Asian urban centers cannot compare when it comes to the scale and universality of the grid pattern in the USA.

The reason for this is explicitly stated in my last post. The origins are ECONOMIC/FINANCIAL in nature. It has nothing to do with some of the conjectures imagined or dreamed-of by some of the more NAIVE posters on this thread.

Grid = planned, per typical patterns of the day. Planning in the US was in sizable part due to the ease of parceling out ownership.

Are there any large US cities that do not have skyscrapers (except Washington DC)?

Madison is about the biggest city I can think of without a skyscrapper, and its a smaller city

Seattle has some cultural similarities but no architecture ones. You have a generally socially liberal populace that is known to be laid back and not too social in public. Also shares the same climate as western Europe

Let me reiterate. Lisbon was rebuilt with modernistic grid like urban pattern, and this directly influenced urban planning in the United States. So this was just one more thing flowing east to west across the Atlantic.. Grid like urban planning was'nt born in America.. America copied it. It's modern origins reside in Europe.

It's modern origins reside in Europe.
Pretty much like everything else, though.
I'd have chosen Quebec btw.

^^DC has skyscrapers.



It's outside of official DC- in Arlington, Silver Spring, Rockville and Tyson's Corner.

Let me reiterate. Lisbon was rebuilt with modernistic grid like urban pattern, and this directly influenced urban planning in the United States. So this was just one more thing flowing east to west across the Atlantic.. Grid like urban planning was'nt born in America.. America copied it. It's modern origins reside in Europe.

Can you cite your sources? Is it scholarly/credible?

I find it strange that in the 200th anniversary of the Manhattan grid, NONE of the papers and news articles commemorating this mentioned anything about Lisbon. Surely, the NY Times article about the 200th anniversary SHOULD have mentioned this. But it does not:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/21/nyregion/21grid.html?pagewanted=all

So please state yoiur sources. It is one thing to keep on carping about this, and another thing to show credible proof.

Let me reiterate. Lisbon was rebuilt with modernistic grid like urban pattern, and this directly influenced urban planning in the United States. So this was just one more thing flowing east to west across the Atlantic.. Grid like urban planning was'nt born in America.. America copied it. It's modern origins reside in Europe.:bash:
Europeans started laying out new towns on grids in the Middle Ages, probably picking up on the Greek and Roman tradition of building cities that way. This was essentially continued by the Europeans when they started colonizing America. You realize that the Spanish began establishing grid cities in the early 1500's in America right? The French, English and Portuguese did it too and it continued from there. It's a logical way to build a city from scratch, economically and for ease of transportation, fire protection, etc... There was no moment where someone said, "Oh look, let's copy Lisbon!" So please state yoiur sources.

:bash:
Europeans started laying out new towns on grids in the Middle Ages, probably picking up on the Greek and Roman tradition of building cities that way. This was essentially continued by the Europeans when they started colonizing America. You realize that the Spanish began establishing grid cities in the early 1500's in America right? The French, English and Portuguese did it too and it continued from there. It's a logical way to build a city from scratch, economically and for ease of transportation, fire protection, etc... There was no moment where someone said, "Oh look, let's copy Lisbon!"

Correct. The Romans used the grid pattern in many of their new urban foundations.

Roman Florence was laid out in a grid pattern. And so was the Emperor Hardrian's city to his dead lover Antinous: the city of Antinoopolis in Roman Egypt:

http://www.antinopolis.org/antinoopolis.html

http://www.antinopolis.org/antinoopolis7.jpg

Again, what distinguishes American cities is not the grid per se: it is the scale and universality of the application throughout vast parts of the USA.

I always think NYC has a European feel about it. As in, people walk everywhere, wide pavements, nice parks, and café's etc

Yep, that's why I picked New York. It's dense and built for people first. When I think of the quintessential US city I think of places like Atlanta or Houston.

Yep, that's why I picked New York. It's dense and built for people first. When I think of the quintessential US city I think of places like Atlanta or Houston.

Atlanta or Houston don't represent the typical US city anymore so than places such as Chicago or New York.

It's not about cities having a grid or not. In Europe there are also lots of cities with a grid, even today. Look at Athens or Barcelona.

It's about compactness, about culture, about walking distance, public transport, environmental issues, mixed functions in the city center and so on.

I have been to most cities in this poll except Detroit. As an European I felt dat Boston and New York have by far the most European feeling of these cities. Philadelphia is 3rd and the others are way behind.

San Francisco feels the most european. Seattle and New Orleans should most definitely be included in the poll.

A better question would be which American city is the least American

.. ok ...

Seattle and Minneapolis look most appealing out of US cities, at least for me .. or ..
some small town in USA - Bloomington,Indiana; Frederick,Maryland

ok .. so ..
none of my business how USA work as a country and what is best way to build cities, infrastructure, human habitat, etc etc.
USA is obviously the biggest energy consumer on the planet.
USA is an industrialized nation, car-dependent, trade-focused .. and therefore,
straightforward city grid and city blocks of skyscrapers is the most rational urban layout for USA cities, right? ok ..
.. but ..
there are other city designs which suit humans very well -
Montreal, Canada
Costa Rica, San José
Denmark, Copenhagen
Finland, Helsinki
Germany, Düsseldorf
Spain, Madrid
Switzerland, Zurich
Austria, Vienna
Australia, Melbourne
...
.. or .. simply build communist concrete blocks http://www.flickr.com/photos/martinmartiini/galleries/72157627129767633/

funny you mentioned San Jose, Costa Rica cause my parents are retired there and I used to live there from 1991-1997 lol

funny you mentioned San Jose, Costa Rica cause my parents are retired there and I used to live there from 1991-1997 lol

Extremely odd. I have family in Costa Rica and they almost universally hate San Jose: old, decrepit, broken streets and sidewalks, poor sanitation, broken down buses, inefficiency. Ditto for tourists: you take a look at the Teatro Nacional and get the hell out to the beaches.

Even if you retire to SJ, you're likely to live in one of the residential suburbs. They offer much better security and are legitimately a good place for retirees. Nearly perfect weather.

If you mean that SJ is better than Managua, Guatemala, etc., I will give you that.

Extremely odd. I have family in Costa Rica and they almost universally hate San Jose: old, decrepit, broken streets and sidewalks, poor sanitation, broken down buses, inefficiency. Ditto for tourists: you take a look at the Teatro Nacional and get the hell out to the beaches.

Even if you retire to SJ, you're likely to live in one of the residential suburbs. They offer much better security and are legitimately a good place for retirees. Nearly perfect weather.

If you mean that SJ is better than Managua, Guatemala, etc., I will give you that.


i kind of agree. tough sell to see san jose, cr in the same ranks with the other cities listed. except for escazu area outside of the city where i stayed for 2 weeks, most of the downtown area looks rundown. we drove there at night to check out a club and decided not to step out of the car because it appeared unsafe.

American European cities ...

Montreal, Canada
Mexico City, Mexico
Santiago, Chile
Buenos Aires, Argentina

Is it about the way the city looks, or the way the people live their everyday lives? That's pretty essential.

A huge difference between US and European cities, especially now summer's here again, are terraces. While throughout Europe a lot of bars and restaurants have terraces outside I seldom see them in the USA. Sometimes squares are completely filled with them and people just enjoy themselves drinking and eating. It's a big cultural difference so I would say the US city that has the biggest terrace culture is most European.

This is what I mean, terraces in my country:

http://foto.denhaag.org/images/centrum/centrum-nu/a-g/images/grote-markt-1.jpg

http://photos.reitsma.cx/Netherlands/Breda/DSC00215.jpg

http://www.pbase.com/ilja_oblomov/image/36531115.jpg


well, if that is the case Sweden & Finland is more North America than Europe, because we have few terraces.

Anyhow, the most european US city is probably Boston when looking at the architecture and planning of the city. It looks very english-like.

But New York is the most european if you compare the type of people living in the city. NY has more variety and influx of culture and cuisine from Europe, probably more italian restaurants here than in Boston.

Let's see what is the most US city in Europe?, probably Frankfurt am Main, Germany looks like Manhattan...still it doesn't make sense because everybody there speak german and eat bratwurst so it's in no sense the US anyway.

People, you realize how silly this all sounds? It's like asking "Which Californian city is the most New Jersey-esque"? Other than a degree of urbanity basically unseen in North America (which, by the way, is by no means found in Europe alone), Norwegian cities and Spanish cities are atmospherically and culturally about as similar as Detroit is to Santiago, Chile. Greek cities are dramatically different from British cities, in terms of culture, atmosphere and physical layout; so are Polish and French cities.

What are you defining "European" as?



european is often considered Brittain, France, Benelux, Germany, Spain and Italy. The main european countries. But people tend to forget other countries.

The question should be which is the most brittishlike US-city ?

The feel of the city anywhere below 86th Street ( except Lower Eastside and Chinatown) is IMO, very European, hands down. It's that cosmopolitan feel that would remind you of London and Paris. Boston- it's like any big American city- a driving city.

Boston may have been very car-centric, but following the Big Dig, which moved 3.5 miles of car traffic underground and ended in 2007, this has changed profoundly. In fact, it has made Boston much more walkable and even more European than before. This finally connected the old Italian neighborhood "North End" (Hanover St) with Boston Common, Beacon Hill and the the Back Bay (gorgeous Newbury St). The so-called "Freedom Trail" is intended to make tourists walk 2.5 miles through town all the way to historical Charlestown in the north (Bunker Hill and USS Constitution).

Boston has a lot of historical architecture, old neighborhoods and not nearly as many modern glass & steel high rises as most other American cities (it shares this trait with San Francisco). Then you have to factor in that Boston (incl Cambridge) is America's biggest college town with with more than 250,000 students, which has a huge influence on the city. Also, running along the Charles River beats running through Central Park any day.

Boston may have been very car-centric, but following the Big Dig, which moved 3.5 miles of car traffic underground and ended in 2007, this has changed profoundly.

Boston was never a car-centric city to begin with. :nuts:

I suspect that the person who made that original comment has never stepped foot inside the city. :|

People have been dredging up a lot of old threads lately that are basically city vs city.