Thunder Bay in last place
Growth hot spots include Kitchener and Saskatoon

By JOHN PARTRIDGE
Friday, May 27, 2005 Updated at 6:18 AM EDT
From Friday's Globe and Mail (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20050527.wxrcities27/BNStory/Business/)


Being in the cellar of a 25-team league is not a happy position.

So it's no surprise that Mayor Lynn Peterson of Thunder Bay was not exactly delighted to learn yesterday that her Northern Ontario community has come dead last in a new index created by CIBC World Markets Inc. to measure changing levels of economic activity in Canada's 25 largest cities -- or census metropolitan areas (CMAs) to be more precise.

Topping the CIBCWM Metropolitan Economic Activity Index -- and beating out such higher profile and much larger growth hot spots as Toronto, Calgary and Edmonton -- were the Kitchener, Ont., area, powered by its high-technology base, and Saskatoon, which gained great traction from a nation-leading 9.2 per cent year-over-year employment gain.

Thunder Bay scored a miserable minus 3 on the index, which was compiled by CIBC senior economist Benjamin Tal, based on year-over-year changes in eight key macroeconomic variables ranging from population and employment through bankruptcy statistics to house prices. By contrast, Kitchener scored plus 11.3, and Saskatoon came in at 10.5.


"I have a concern about [the] data," Ms. Peterson said, in particular querying the population figures Mr. Tal used. But she also said that while Southern Ontario may be booming, times are tough in her neck of the woods. "I think that you'll find a lot of northern communities, unlike the boom in large urban centres, [are undergoing] an out-migration issue."

Above all, she said, the forestry industry is hurting, courtesy of the softwood lumber dispute with the United States, the high Canadian dollar and rising energy costs. "When the forestry industry is hurting, it shows."

Mr. Tal's figures reveal, among other things, that Thunder Bay's population dipped by about 0.2 per cent year over year in the first quarter, that employment declined 2.7 per cent and that although housing starts rose by nearly 40 per cent -- second highest on the index -- house sales and prices fell.

Still, in an interview, the economist emphasized that his new index measures the rate of change rather than the level of economic activity and said that the worst may already be over for Thunder Bay. Its index reading hit rock bottom at minus 4.6 six months ago, he said. "In fact, it is recovering now a little bit."

The picture was, of course, much brighter in Kitchener. "It's gratifying in the sense that it validates the kind of direction we have been trying to take here within the Kitchener CMA," Mayor Carl Zehr said.

Mr. Tal cited Kitchener's "strong and dynamic high-tech sector" as likely being "an important engine" of its performance, which reflected above average growth in population and employment, a strong resale housing market and above average improvement in business and personal bankruptcies.

Mr. Zehr concurred, citing an estimate that the Kitchener region now accounts for about one quarter of all technology start-up companies in Canada. He added that he thinks even though Kitchener has grown to be "a fairly large community," it still has the sort of strong "work ethic" more readily associated with smaller towns.

Calgary, which ranked 10th on the index with a score of plus 7.7, led in population growth with a year over year increase of about 2 per cent, just edging out Toronto, which ranked fourth overall on the index with a score of 9.2.

Meanwhile, Saint John ranked No. 1 in terms of the increase in full-time jobs' share of total employment, which Mr. Tal is using in the index to approximate improvements in labour quality. It edged out Calgary, Toronto, Montreal and Kitchener.

Trois-Rivières, Que., suffered the largest jump in business bankruptcies, while Greater Sudbury, Ont., endured the sharpest spike in consumers going bust.

Cities' pulse

The CIBC World Markets Metropolitan Economic Activity Index, developed by CIBC senior economist Benjamin Tal, is designed to capture the rate of change in economic activity in Canada's 25 largest cities based on 8 key macroeconomic variables.

"It's gratifying in the sense that it validates the kind of direction we have been trying to take here within the Kitchener CMA."

CARL ZEHR, MAYOR OF KITCHENER

"I think that you'll find a lot of northern communities, unlike the boom in large urban centres, [are undergoing] an out-migration issue."

LYNN PETERSON, MAYOR OF THUNDER BAY

CIBC's eight key macroeconomic variables: Population growth, employment growth, unemployment rate, full-time share in total employment, personal bankruptcy rate, business bankruptcy rate, housing starts and MLS housing resales.

Kitchener: 11.3

Saskatoon: 10.5

Sherbrooke: 9.7

Toronto: 9.2

Quebec City: 8.6

Winnipeg: 8.3

Sudbury: 8.2

Edmonton: 7.9

Regina: 7.9

Calgary: 7.7

Hamilton: 7.5

St. Catharines: 7.4

Montreal: 7.2

Halifax: 7.2

Vancouver: 7.0

Trois-Rivières: 6.9

Saint John: 6.6

Victoria: 6.5

London: 6.1

St. John's: 6.0

Saguenay: 5.8

Ottawa: 4.7

Kingston: 2.1

Windsor: -0.4

Thunder Bay: -3.0

SOURCE: CIBC WORLD MARKETS INC.

Sudbury at #7??? This country is doomed... :)

There is the answer to the question I asked myself after looking at Stats Can's population figures: why is Kitchener-Waterloo growing so much...27,000 over the last four years...

It isn't so much that Kitchener has a lot of high-tech industry, it is a blue-collar city; it's actually Waterloo where the high-tech businesses are centered.

Check out the careers available at RIM:

http://www.rim.com/careers/na/index.shtml

They have been hiring like this for several years now.

^I'll second that. The K/W area is a nice mix of manufacturing and high-tech. The University of Waterloo is in no small way responsible for K/W's success. Let's not forget Cambridge too.. all the same wonderful pot.

^I'll second that. The K/W area is a nice mix of manufacturing and high-tech. The University of Waterloo is in no small way responsible for K/W's success. Let's not forget Cambridge too.. all the same wonderful pot.


Don't forget North Dumfries either!

Don't forget North Dumfries either!

yer such a nut!

no, no... more like an ENIGMA. The strange American with an unholy knowledge of Ontario municipal structure... or some dude who uses google alot.

Speaking of which, RM Waterloo seems like the most likely candidate for amalgamation. 3 cities that comprise 1 single urban build-up, 4 townships, all within one county. Yet it didn't happen.

yer such a nut!

no, no... more like an ENIGMA. The strange American with an unholy knowledge of Ontario municipal structure... or some dude who uses google alot.

No google. Keeping up with the municipal structure in Canada is required for my job...and it keeps changing! Five years ago there was no Mississippi Mills, no Saugeen Shores, no West Nipissing, no Trent Hills...tell Ontario to stop it!

Speaking of which, RM Waterloo seems like the most likely candidate for amalgamation. 3 cities that comprise 1 single urban build-up, 4 townships, all within one county. Yet it didn't happen.

There's no dominant city there...if you amalgamated it into one city, what would you call it? ;)

^ I'd avoid a name like Saugeen Shores, thats for sure. Sounds like a retirement home.

You have to tell me what your job is, I'm dying of curiosity. Are you a spy? Some sort of urban-planning James Bond?

^ I'd avoid a name like Saugeen Shores, thats for sure. Sounds like a retirement home.

You have to tell me what your job is, I'm dying of curiosity. Are you a spy? Some sort of urban-planning James Bond?

I'm a demographer and statistician, or what KGB would (and has!) call a "shitcounter" ;)

There's no dominant city there...if you amalgamated it into one city, what would you call it? ;)
Toronto West.

I'm a demographer and statistician, or what KGB would call a "shitcounter" ;)

why the focus on Ontario? Do you observe demographics for all of North America, or are we some sort of worse case scenario?

I'm a demographer and statistician, or what KGB would (and has!) call a "shitcounter" ;)
Do you count the shit, do you at least get to wear gloves ?

why the focus on Ontario? Do you observe demographics for all of North America, or are we some sort of worse case scenario?

No focus on Ontario at all. I can rattle off geography from any country you care to hear it...

Toronto West.

No, silly. Hamilton North!

No focus on Ontario at all. I can rattle off geography from any country you care to hear it...

does this pay good money? Or is this a hobby?

Do you count the shit, do you at least get to wear gloves ?

It goes in a big toilet shaped machine that counts it, kinda like those coin counting machines, but quieter...

8 posts in three minutes... we might as well be talking on the phone

does this pay good money? Or is this a hobby?

The shitcounting pays okay...the rattling off of geography doesn't pay at all, unless you're about to PayPal me for doing it ;)

No, silly. Hamilton North!

Or maybe South Fergus?

No google. Keeping up with the municipal structure in Canada is required for my job...and it keeps changing! Five years ago there was no Mississippi Mills, no Saugeen Shores, no West Nipissing, no Trent Hills...tell Ontario to stop it!


)

Too bad you proved before you know crap about CSMA/PSMA vs CMA.

Too bad you proved before you know crap about CSMA/PSMA vs CMA.

That is too bad :(

But now we have Metros, Micros, and CSAs, so it's all good again! :)

So expert, what is a Micros? You've tweaked my interest

A micro is a small metro, roughly analogous to Canadian CAs. How cool is that? :)

What the hell is a CAs?

It's a little CMA. Pretty neat, eh?

Just like a BS?

Well if you don't believe anything unless KGB sez it, you can always google ;)

GeeZ, seriously. I only believe what Are Be says! LOL

Seriously, what is a CA/what does it stand for.

^I'll second that. The K/W area is a nice mix of manufacturing and high-tech. The University of Waterloo is in no small way responsible for K/W's success. Let's not forget Cambridge too.. all the same wonderful pot.

Exactly, Mike Lazaridis - the founder of RIM - said that he decided to locate his business in Waterloo because he wanted to stay close to the "mine". That is, the University of Waterloo and its engineering program.

There's no dominant city there...if you amalgamated it into one city, what would you call it? ;)

The people of Kitchener and Waterloo have already decided that one. The name would be Waterloo.

KW is decent. It'll be a lot better with the LRT plan. Too bad the Lyric was shut down. That place was the last real night club in KW. Metropolis/Innercity/whatever they call the Twist (the revolution?) now these days were all no match. Traffic is pretty bad.

Crap, when I lived in K-W the Lyric was still a cinema.

what year was that? My first year at Laurier, 1995, it was a great/sleazy club.

The people of Kitchener and Waterloo have already decided that one. The name would be Waterloo.

The name of the Regional Municipality as a whole...makes sense.

Too bad Hamilton and Ottawa didn't go that route...

what year was that? My first year at Laurier, 1995, it was a great/sleazy club.


I was there '83 - '90. I think it was converted sometime 'round '88 or '89.

GeeZ, seriously. I only believe what Are Be says! LOL

Seriously, what is a CA/what does it stand for.

Census Agglomeration

It's what Stats Can calls a recognized/defined population area when the urban core under 100K, but over 10K.

For more info see here. (http://www12.statcan.ca/english/census01/Products/Reference/dict/geo009.htm)

There's no dominant city there...if you amalgamated it into one city, what would you call it? ;)
Make a new name up. Remember Cambridge was the rebrand after the amalgamation of Galt, Preston and Hespler.

KW is craptacular... It's a suburb, people. No central life. The only way you can have fun is to hop on the Greyhound or VIA... and head to Toronto, or maybe Hamilton as it is closer. The dullness does extend to the tri-city area -- Cambridge really is Lamebridge.

Guelph is the only decent place in the area... Lots of nice little towns around too, esp. Stratford or Elora. But KW? Forget it.

Census Agglomeration

It's what Stats Can calls a recognized/defined population area when the urban core under 100K, but over 10K.

For more info see here. (http://www12.statcan.ca/english/census01/Products/Reference/dict/geo009.htm)

Thanks

I think CMAs, and the way they calculate it is out of date. In today's sprawled out environment, two regions can work together but not have the commutting connections. Its like your 2 legs, they are different/not attached but work together to move you forward.

Make a new name up. Remember Cambridge was the rebrand after the amalgamation of Galt, Preston and Hespler.

And Thunder Bay was the rebrand of Port Arthur and Fort William...

Yes, "rebranding" is indeed a long standing tradition, running from Mississauga to Mississippi Mills ;)

KW is craptacular... It's a suburb, people. .

I've never been a fan of KW, ('W' in particular) but Kitchener has a decent downtown for what it is. Granted, the retail isn't too great along king street, you can thank fairview mall for that, but it reminds me of the outer regions of downtown Toronto, where it moves towards a mixture of suburb.

They all seem pretty close, at least the top 20 seem to be fairing well, but what criteria does this list use? That could vary the results. Saskatoon showing top economic activity, that's surprising to me. But then again, I don't pay much attention to progress in Saskatchewan. I don't think K-W is a surprise, though. Too bad I can't find a freaking job there for my field there though, computer programming. Kitchener a BLUE-COLLAR city, I don't really agree with that, more like a mixed collar city, because looking around the city does not really give a blue-collar feeling. Waterloo is the TECH capital there though, including RIM, which invented the Blackberry handheld computer device. I'm not a real fan of K-W either, but I like it well enough, and respect it. But it doesn't look or feel like the tenth largest city in Canada, feels more like a small suburb of another larger city.

For Sudbury to be #7, we must have a very, VERY high demand for Nickel or for more quizmasters/hockey players.

Its like your 2 legs, they are different/not attached but work together to move you forward.

Exactly. So why can't two areas remain two interconnected, but still distinct, metros? Or would you rather have one huge, unwieldy leg that takes you nowhere (just so you can say that you have a bigger leg than someone else), or two strong legs that together move you forward?

double post

Exactly. So why can't two areas remain two interconnected, but still distinct, metros? Or would you rather have one huge, unwieldy leg that takes you nowhere (just so you can say that you have a bigger leg than someone else), or two strong legs that together move you forward?

My example is how two different CMAs work together as a whole. I'm not quite sure what you are getting at? Is it because memorial day is upon us soon? :cheers:

I've never been a fan of KW, ('W' in particular) but Kitchener has a decent downtown for what it is. Granted, the retail isn't too great along king street, you can thank fairview mall for that, but it reminds me of the outer regions of downtown Toronto, where it moves towards a mixture of suburb.


wha?? 'W' is where it's at... 'K' is the shit. yo.

"'W' is where it's at"

More like where nothing is at.

My example is how two different CMAs work together as a whole. I'm not quite sure what you are getting at? Is it because memorial day is upon us soon? :cheers:

You expressed disapproval of how CMAs are defined. What exactly do you disapprove of?

Census Agglomeration

It's what Stats Can calls a recognized/defined population area when the urban core under 100K, but over 10K.

For more info see here. (http://www12.statcan.ca/english/census01/Products/Reference/dict/geo009.htm)

Really? I think Barrie and Guelph, both CA's, have recently passed 100K. What will become of them?

Kitchener a BLUE-COLLAR city, I don't really agree with that, more like a mixed collar city, because looking around the city does not really give a blue-collar feeling.

I'm a little surprised to see you think that way. Kitchener is very much a BLUE-COLLAR (like Cambridge) city because so much of its employment is in the industrial sector - factory work like at Lear Seigler, Kuntz Electoplating or Budd Automotive (and scores of other factories). Waterloo is very WHITE-COLLAR with its universities, insurance companies and tech sector.

Really? I think Barrie and Guelph, both CA's, have recently passed 100K. What will become of them?
They will be reclassified as CMA's.

I'm surprised as hell to see Sudbury ranked so high. Shame about Thunder Bay, though.

Is there any hope for Northern Ontario?

For a nice "walking tour" of Waterloo, check this out:

http://www.garywill.com/waterloo/tour.htm


Here's Gary Will's personal orientation to Waterloo:

http://www.garywill.com/waterloo/orientation.htm

Sudbury above Calgary?

I call BS on this one.

I would be cautious to read to much into the CIBC study. This study is simply yr-over-yr. It's too short of a period to really get a sense of the economic activity of that city. For example. Maybe Sudbury is so high on that list because the year before they did very poorly. Conversly, maybe Thunder Bay had a steller 2004 and are now slowing down as a result.
When SARS hit Toronto, our economy went through a bit of a tailspin, but the following year saw a higher than usual rebound. Was this jst the economy, or a catch up from SARS period.

I would like to get more long term trends on cities, maybe 3 or 5yrs would be more accurate.

As for K/W though, they have probably been in the top 3-5 in all the last 5yrs. If ever there is a time when the tri-city is connected more by transit (GO train expansion say) to the GTA and Hamilton, it may help their economy even more.

What the report was looking at are changes in the economic indicators that were selected. Since Calgary has been doing so well over the last few years, it has little room to improve its unemployment rate etc.

Just why has'nt the Tri-city area amalgamated yet? Everywhere else in Ont. did whether they liked it or not. I think it would be a good idea, they are so fully integrated already.
Maybe they can call it Tri-falls, Tri-ville, Tri-<fill-in-the-blank>

What the report was looking at are changes in the economic indicators that were selected. Since Calgary has been doing so well over the last few years, it has little room to improve its unemployment rate etc.


Maybe just trying to be a leading indicator to future trends?
In that case it would be a useful gauge of what we can expect. Still to many variables though.

In the case of Calgary, Oil prices will be a big factor, but also I believe Calgary will be an exxageration of the CDN economy. For example, if Canada does well, Calgary will do even better, and vice versa. As Calgary is a recently booming city (last 10rs), it still is a bit more volatile than your average city would be.

Tech spotlight on the Region of Waterloo:

http://www.therecord.com/business/techspot/index.html


For more info on this part of Canada:

http://www.techtriangle.com/Media/MReleases.cfm

I'm a little surprised to see you think that way. Kitchener is very much a BLUE-COLLAR (like Cambridge) city because so much of its employment is in the industrial sector - factory work like at Lear Seigler, Kuntz Electoplating or Budd Automotive (and scores of other factories). Waterloo is very WHITE-COLLAR with its universities, insurance companies and tech sector.

Then that means a BLUE COLLAR city isn't what I thought it was. When I think BLUE-COLLAR, I think cities like Detroit, Cleveland, Buffalo, St. Louis, Cincinnati, those kind of industrial places, you know. Kitchener doesn't look anything like those. But I guess there are times when people from a city and is described as BLUE COLLAR doesn't necessarily look run-down or older or anything like that. I sorta new to this stuff. :)

Maybe just trying to be a leading indicator to future trends?
In that case it would be a useful gauge of what we can expect. Still to many variables though.

In the case of Calgary, Oil prices will be a big factor, but also I believe Calgary will be an exxageration of the CDN economy. For example, if Canada does well, Calgary will do even better, and vice versa. As Calgary is a recently booming city (last 10rs), it still is a bit more volatile than your average city would be.
Please provide some facts to back this statement? You realize that back in the 70's Calgary grew faster, than it does today. Of course, come 1983 the oil prices crashed, the NEP was enacted and all development and growth stopped. Subsequently thereafter, during the late 80's and early 90's, Ontario and much of Canada experienced some excellent growth while Alberta (Calgary and Edmonton) did not. So to say that if Canada does well, then Calgary will doesn't necessarily add up.

Then that means a BLUE COLLAR city isn't what I thought it was. When I think BLUE-COLLAR, I think cities like Detroit, Cleveland, Buffalo, St. Louis, Cincinnati, those kind of industrial places, you know. Kitchener doesn't look anything like those. But I guess there are times when people from a city and is described as BLUE COLLAR doesn't necessarily look run-down or older or anything like that. I sorta new to this stuff. :)

By "blue-collar" I was simply referring to the dictionary definition:

blue-collar (bl¡´kòl´er) adjective
Of or relating to wage earners, especially as a class, whose jobs are performed in work clothes and often involve manual labor.

In other words, the lunchbucket crowd - like factory workers, plumbers, carpenters, welders, etc. That's Kitchener; whereas Waterloo is white-collar - office workers, university professors, engineers, managers, etc. There's a very noticeable difference between the two cities in this regard.

I don't have any facts to back it up...that is why I said "....I BELIEVE Calgary will be....". It was an opinion.
Actually, based on what you said above, it seems that Oil prices played a larger role than I did think. If Calgary did well in the 70's (good oil prices), poor in the 80's & 90's (low oil prices) & now is doing well again (high oil prices), there is a direct correlation.

Nevertheless, my opinion as to why Calgary will have larger swings than the economy as a whole is not only oil, but cannot be excluded either.
The main reason is because Calgary is an emerging financial power. Calagary has expanded considerably, diversified beyond natural resources, and has more clout in the corporate world. So, now you will see economic trends in Calgary follow more of Canada as a whole rather than simply Oil cycles.

The problem is because the city is still emerging and not a fully Mature diversified city (I would give 10 more yrs myself), it is more prone to economic shifts. Not quite being large enough, not quite as diversified, etc.
Think of it like a company. You have your small starter companies that are extrememly volatile, mid size companies that are fairly stable, but still more volatilve than the average (Calgary) and the blue chip who grow more or less constantly.

Hope I explained it. I think I just confused myself honestly :-)
Just an opinion though, no facts to back it up!

I'm not surprised to see Sudbury so high in the rankings -- it's booming right now (so is North Bay).

Just why has'nt the Tri-city area amalgamated yet? Everywhere else in Ont. did whether they liked it or not. I think it would be a good idea, they are so fully integrated already.
Maybe they can call it Tri-falls, Tri-ville, Tri-<fill-in-the-blank>

again?

Kitchener is only a year or two away from overtaking London as Canada's tenth largest city due to that high growth rate. Its amazing how much its grown since 2000. Besides the economy I think Toronto's proximity really helps. The rents here certainly are not the cheapest in Southern Ontario but then once again the economy and of course having two universities and a college contribute to that.

Amalgomation (time to loose the three cities) and building the light rail (not just talking about it for another 10 years) should be its next major goals. Surprised even in the press lately amalgomation is being pushed by the public again and again. They're talking about dropping Cambridge and Kitchener and calling the entire CMA - WATERLOO which has the highest profile of the three cities. For smart growth to occur its absolutely necessary.

Kitchener has already overtaken London as Canada's tenth largest city.

From the Region of Waterloo web site, population 488,500 (2004 year end).

http://www.region.waterloo.on.ca/web/region.nsf/DocID/0776E1882A72B3DC85256B1B006F8ADB?OpenDocument

I read an editorial in The Record a few days ago suggesting that the time for amalgamation has come.

When polled many years ago, the residents of both Kitchener and Waterloo agreed that the name of any amalgamated city would be Waterloo, nice to hear that they haven't changed their minds.

Cambridge is the real holdout though with amalgamation. Still, they are starting several express bus services in the fall from Waterloo so at least in the transit sense there getting connected. Now if only their libraries would do the same.

You know you should amalgamate when homes are partly in Waterloo and partly in Kitchener. I know about a case where someone whose house was in Waterloo, but backyard was in Kitchener, wanted to build a pool. They lucked out because the pool would be in Kitchener where the rules regarding having a pool were not too bad. If the backyard had been in Waterloo (rather than Kitchener) they would have been screwed by the regulations.

I would think that the fact that the RM is named Waterloo halps nomenclature matters a bit. Likewise, if Niagara RM amalgamated into one city, I would think it more likely to be named Niagara (or Niagara Falls), rather than Saint Catherines...

LOL Thats funny! My favourite part of the city is around that border area - you know around Union Blvd off Westmount - the posh part of town with the tree divides and all the smart looking 'big' homes. Its gotta be one of the nicest neighborhoods anywhere in the province. Also, like Belmont Village area. A little bit of pedestrian friendly streetlife in Kitchener. Need more areas like that.

Most people are quick to judge the city by King Street and The Transit Centre alone yet don't really now much about the reality. Even where I live downtown - The Civic District is a pretty smart neighborhood only blocks off King Street. On the other side of downtown you have Victoria Park which has nice homes and leafy streets. Its all too common for Kitchener to get quickly dismissed as "the girl who seldom has dates but regularly has herpes." LOL Blame people in Waterloo for that!! It was a quote printed recently in the University of Waterloo 'Imprint' on ways to throw a successful barbacue in Kitchener (without the guest knowing your a dirty ho living in K-Town) and how the key was directing them to your place via the use of landmarks so they never actually suspected they left the safety of Waterloo!

Even though I live in downtown Kitchener I had to laugh. Still its comments like those that are the basis for many peoples opinions. "Kitchener has indeed had many dates but the herpes has cleared up" LOL Waterloo is just jealous cause they never get laid north of Union Blvd. Waterloo's frustrations are evident in the naming of its parks like 'RIM Park' - named after a company. Yeah, sure it is. And to think Waterloo looks down on us as some dirty slapper! How can they say that when our park is named after longest reigning monarch.

Hell...I never even got on to Cambridge but we'll leave that one alone. How much fun can a city that wears the 401 like some sort of chastity belt, be. Plenty probably.

In regards to Cambridge, is'nt there quite a gap between Cambridge & K/W because of the 401? Not familiar anough with the Geography, but heard it's a bit large, at least in mass transit terms.

I would think that the fact that the RM is named Waterloo halps nomenclature matters a bit. Likewise, if Niagara RM amalgamated into one city, I would think it more likely to be named Niagara (or Niagara Falls), rather than Saint Catherines...

Agreed on the name Waterloo.

They would be crazy to call it anything but Niagara Falls. How many people outside of Canada have even heard of Saint Catharines?

LOL Thats funny! My favourite part of the city is around that border area - you know around Union Blvd off Westmount - the posh part of town with the tree divides and all the smart looking 'big' homes. Its gotta be one of the nicest neighborhoods anywhere in the province. Also, like Belmont Village area. A little bit of pedestrian friendly streetlife in Kitchener. Need more areas like that.

You're thinking about the area around the Westmount golf course - I like that area too.

Another area (Waterloo) that you should check out (if you haven't already) is Colonial dr. and Green Acres dr. It's only residential, but I like the nicely treed lots and big homes.

Most people are quick to judge the city by King Street and The Transit Centre alone yet don't really now much about the reality. Even where I live downtown - The Civic District is a pretty smart neighborhood only blocks off King Street. On the other side of downtown you have Victoria Park which has nice homes and leafy streets. Its all too common for Kitchener to get quickly dismissed as "the girl who seldom has dates but regularly has herpes." LOL Blame people in Waterloo for that!! It was a quote printed recently in the University of Waterloo 'Imprint' on ways to throw a successful barbacue in Kitchener (without the guest knowing your a dirty ho living in K-Town) and how the key was directing them to your place via the use of landmarks so they never actually suspected they left the safety of Waterloo!



LOL. Downtown Kitchener used to be very nice and clean - not much was wrong with it 35 years ago. Then, for several reasons, the industrial base in downtown Kitchener went bust and the downtown subsequently went to shit. Now downtown is starting to revitalize, but it has a long way to go.

Downtown Waterloo (now called Uptown Waterloo) never was all that great, but never got all that bad even though, Labatts, Seagrams et al. closed their doors.

Even though I live in downtown Kitchener I had to laugh. Still its comments like those that are the basis for many peoples opinions. "Kitchener has indeed had many dates but the herpes has cleared up" LOL Waterloo is just jealous cause they never get laid north of Union Blvd. Waterloo's frustrations are evident in the naming of its parks like 'RIM Park' - named after a company. Yeah, sure it is. And to think Waterloo looks down on us as some dirty slapper! How can they say that when our park is named after longest reigning monarch.

Overall, Kitchener is rather nondescript IMO. I find Waterloo more interesting despite the fact that it is only half Kitchener's size. I think it's fair to say that the average visitor to K-W would not be overly impressed by the place, although some from other parts of Canada will be astonished by all the manufacturing plants to be found in the Region of Waterloo.

In regards to Cambridge, is'nt there quite a gap between Cambridge & K/W because of the 401? Not familiar anough with the Geography, but heard it's a bit large, at least in mass transit terms.

No, there is no gap between Cambridge and Kitchener. On one side of the train tracks you are in Kitchener, on the other side you are in Cambridge - formerly Hespler which is where Toyota is located. If you are on one side of the 401 you are in Kit., on the other side, you are in Cambridge (formerly Preston) - I wouldn't call that a gap. I have to say though that the drive along highway 8 on the way to Cambridge is lightly populated.

Regarding the hypothetical name of an amalgamated Cambridge-Kitchener-Waterloo: yes, Waterloo would seem to make sense. But the war is over and Germany is our friend again; why not switch back to Berlin? After all, aren't Paris and London just down the road? (Okay, Waterloo it is.)

By the way, is Guelph a separate CA or is it included in the K-W CMA?

Guelph is essentially all by its lonesome - not part of Waterloo Region nor is it part of the Kitchener CMA - yet there's only a 6 mile rural gap between the two.

Many cities in southern Ontario are closer together than a lot of people not from the area may realize.

Guelph is essentially all by its lonesome - not part of Waterloo Region nor is it part of the Kitchener CMA - yet there's only a 6 mile rural gap between the two.

Has there ever been any discussion on creating a quad-cities metro area?

Regarding the hypothetical name of an amalgamated Cambridge-Kitchener-Waterloo: yes, Waterloo would seem to make sense. But the war is over and Germany is our friend again; why not switch back to Berlin? After all, aren't Paris and London just down the road? (Okay, Waterloo it is.)

By the way, is Guelph a separate CA or is it included in the K-W CMA?

Guelph and barrie are their own CAs, and soon may be CMAs. Brantford and \Peterborough are CAs that may too acheive CMA status in the coming years...

Has there ever been any discussion on creating a quad-cities metro area?


Not that I know of because there just isn't the same need. Combining Kitchener, Waterloo and Cambridge makes sense because they abut. When Kitchener city crew plow snow off Weber st (and many other streets) does it make sense that they stop right where Waterloo begins?

Guelph used to own part of "Waterloo-Wellington Airport" (now called Region of Waterloo Airport), but they sold their interest. Guelph was part of the effort to brand the area as "The Technology Triangle", but they bailed out of that too. Perhaps they figured that K-W was getting all the benefit on both counts.

I don't have any facts to back it up...that is why I said "....I BELIEVE Calgary will be....". It was an opinion.
Actually, based on what you said above, it seems that Oil prices played a larger role than I did think. If Calgary did well in the 70's (good oil prices), poor in the 80's & 90's (low oil prices) & now is doing well again (high oil prices), there is a direct correlation.

Nevertheless, my opinion as to why Calgary will have larger swings than the economy as a whole is not only oil, but cannot be excluded either.
The main reason is because Calgary is an emerging financial power. Calagary has expanded considerably, diversified beyond natural resources, and has more clout in the corporate world. So, now you will see economic trends in Calgary follow more of Canada as a whole rather than simply Oil cycles.

The problem is because the city is still emerging and not a fully Mature diversified city (I would give 10 more yrs myself), it is more prone to economic shifts. Not quite being large enough, not quite as diversified, etc.
Think of it like a company. You have your small starter companies that are extrememly volatile, mid size companies that are fairly stable, but still more volatilve than the average (Calgary) and the blue chip who grow more or less constantly.

Hope I explained it. I think I just confused myself honestly :-)
Just an opinion though, no facts to back it up!
/\ hey, I understand your point...I wasn't trying to start a war ;). I just wanted to clarify that when the country as a whole is doing well economically, it doesn't mean that Calgary will also be.

I agree that Calgary has diversified over the years, however, much of its corporate domination is directly related to the energy sector. The large banks and financial institutes are also highly interconnected with these energy companies.

Also, the overall economic health of the country is highly impacted by oil prices. Low prices has a dramatic effect on Calgary and Alberta's economy and high prices effects the country altogether.

Not surprised about Windsor being so low on the list. The high Canadian dollar is hurting manufacturing and tourism - and those are our only two major industries.

But Kitchener also has an extremely large manufacturing base, yet it is booming. As a percentage of people employed (in manufacturing), I believe Kitchener is #2 in Ontario. I can't remember who is #1, but it's either Windsor or Oshawa.

True, but metro Kitchener is much more diversified and its proximity to Toronto no doubt helps - same deal with Oshawa. The auto industry just isn't doing well right now. We always ride the wave of the Canadian dollar - Windsor was booming when the dollar was really low several years ago.

No, there is no gap between Cambridge and Kitchener. On one side of the train tracks you are in Kitchener, on the other side you are in Cambridge - formerly Hespler which is where Toyota is located. If you are on one side of the 401 you are in Kit., on the other side, you are in Cambridge (formerly Preston) - I wouldn't call that a gap. I have to say though that the drive along highway 8 on the way to Cambridge is lightly populated.

How about public transit. Is Cambridge incorporated with K/W on that front as well?

/\ hey, I understand your point...I wasn't trying to start a war ;). I just wanted to clarify that when the country as a whole is doing well economically, it doesn't mean that Calgary will also be.

I agree that Calgary has diversified over the years, however, much of its corporate domination is directly related to the energy sector. The large banks and financial institutes are also highly interconnected with these energy companies.

Also, the overall economic health of the country is highly impacted by oil prices. Low prices has a dramatic effect on Calgary and Alberta's economy and high prices effects the country altogether.

ahhhh....no war.....your no fun :jk:

Well I guess we'll have to wait unti the next recession to prove our points. That's tomorrow is'nt it...lol.
Actually, movement in oil prices will give us a better barometer of Calgaries economy vs Canada

How about public transit. Is Cambridge incorporated with K/W on that front as well?


Yes, the three cities are covered by Grand River Transit.

go KWC area!!!