cont ........

So are you!

So are you!
:laugh: :laugh:

just returned from a museum visit( and yes pesky rabbit the ale pie and view were both excellent) there are now 5 tower cranes within Chavasse Park.

The steelwork for the canopy for the bus/tram stop now appears to run the full length of Canning Place ,in a very graceful sweep. With the Moat House a heap of rubble, I wonder when the MSCP & bus station are going to follow suit?

As soon as they get that new station up and running at the end of the road I assume.

Posted this already but that thread got closed ( wtf!) so noone probably saw it .

Take a gander at this - you can even see the shitehawks flying by

http://camera.nublu.com/view/index.shtml

Posted this already but that thread got closed ( wtf!) so noone probably saw it .

Take a gander at this - you can even see the shitehawks flying by

http://camera.nublu.com/view/index.shtml

Cheers for this link LABlue great images at last from a web cam :)

Good isnt it ?!

I havent figured out how they give priority to control it but since I get the advantage of 8hrs time diference I was able to watch all the pissheads crawling home down the Strand on Saturday morning. :)

The zoom and focus are quite useful for perving on the semi-naked ladies off to the Pan American bar etc... :)

Bus/tram stop in Canning Place.

http://img186.echo.cx/img186/8258/paradisest347bo.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

Some detail of Canning Place MSCP.
http://img186.echo.cx/img186/7904/paradisest350kr.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

http://img186.echo.cx/img186/797/paradisest369sv.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

Moat House no more.
http://img186.echo.cx/img186/8301/paradisest378pc.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

How does that camera do that because surely theres more than 1 person at a time looking at it. However it is done it superb

That is the best web cam ever!

How does that camera do that because surely theres more than 1 person at a time looking at it. However it is done it superb
Could it be more than one webcam covering the area like a panorama shot, so in effect the camera isn't moving, but you are viewing through different cameras views. Therefore more than one person can look at any part of the shot they want.

What a stupid camera. Somebody keeps moving it :(

West ham, west ham!!

Doug, smashing pics as usual, the MSCP looks good and I do like that canopy over the bus/tram stop. I am in London from the 3-6 to 22-6 so I hope to catch you and all the boys on sat 25 of June, keep on clicking

What a stupid camera. Somebody keeps moving it :(

How shocking :sleepy: somebody is moving the camera :sleepy:
Accy boy the camera is not stupid,

U R

Does anyone have admin rights to this thread and if so can they change DevelopmAnt to DevelopmEnt

Shizenhausen or woodhuasen or whoever started this thread cant spell and it's doing my head in !

:bash:

Mind you he is a brummie so what do you expect ?

They're breeding

http://www.liverpoolpsda.co.uk/Webcam/

About time they they added a webcam to the site... 1 added, 2 to go

BUT... 24 hour delay and 20 min intervals? Quite useless, but maybe some different angles at least. Compared to the other new one this is stone age.

What, Brummies?

Er, hope not. :D

I wonder why the bus station ticket office has what seems to be at least four storeys.

Are the upper floors hotel or residential accomodation?

It would be nice if the psda website should renders of all of the buildings that have been designed. This one is half up and we still don't know what it is going to end up looking like yet.

I wonder why the bus station ticket office has what seems to be at least four storeys.

Are the upper floors hotel or residential accomodation?

It would be nice if the psda website should renders of all of the buildings that have been designed. This one is half up and we still don't know what it is going to end up looking like yet.

This building will be ten storey`s high sitting on a plinth (podium?) the transport interchange facilities are in the plinth with a hotel planned for above. I agree ,we have for ages complained about lack of detail to various individual buildings even though some of them are now being built.
At least we now have 3 web cams looking over the hoardings, so this might be the only way we will see some detail or go and check on the model.

ive just looked in the development list and it states that Debenhems will be on the corner of lord st and paradise st. Mcdonalds is there isn't it. could do with that going

Think its the corner of South John St and Lord Street. They've probably fucked up. :)

lol

:) :) :cheers:
Pissing on the Moat House grave

http://www.**************************/moatpiss.jpg

http://www.**************************/moat02.jpg

Is that an extension to the QE2 courts in the second pic? Look at the SW corner where the ryvita is a lighter shade.

Badge, you may be right I've never noticed that till you mentioned it.

Trying to get some decent pics of the tram stop in Canning Place but with the hoarding around there it's a bit crap.

http://img131.echo.cx/img131/1957/canningtramstop35dl.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

http://img131.echo.cx/img131/5033/canningtramstop41jq.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

http://img131.echo.cx/img131/995/canningtramstop51an.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

Is that an extension to the QE2 courts in the second pic? Look at the SW corner where the ryvita is a lighter shade.

It's close but not connected. A block of offices on Strand St, I think :cheers:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y40/scouserdave/paradisestrand.jpg

Not that shitty dolls house Dave! Between the two cranes on the right hand side. :)

I know where you mean Badge! The one Dave is talking about is the Halifax offices on the Strand, is it not? The extension you're on about is actually joined to the building and is a slightly different colour to the rest of the building.

I dont think its an extension to the building, i think its just the sunlight

Not that shitty dolls house Dave! Between the two cranes on the right hand side. :)

LOL, that's the one Mark

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y40/scouserdave/paradisestrand2.jpg

Is that an extension to the QE2 courts in the second pic? Look at the SW corner where the ryvita is a lighter shade.

No, think that's the crappy Halifax building - they moved in when it was clear the QE2 building was not going to be finished - there was going to be a Magistrates Court fronting the Strand :cheers:

Posted this already but that thread got closed ( wtf!) so noone probably saw it .

Take a gander at this - you can even see the shitehawks flying by

http://camera.nublu.com/view/index.shtml

What a great webcam, I've got a hard-on.

What a stupid camera. Somebody keeps moving it :(

That was pretty good for you Accy :hahaha:

http://img149.echo.cx/img149/4629/moat026wi.jpg

I reckon that Dicky Sam's right. Prolly a trick of the light. :)

Accy is a muppet.

your too talented to be on here bunnyman

......on the PSDA website

Here :-

http://www.liverpoolpsda.co.uk/construction/

and no 'tricks of the light' on these ones :)

Very good pictures.

http://img149.echo.cx/img149/4629/moat026wi.jpg

I reckon that Dicky Sam's right. Prolly a trick of the light. :)

Accy is a muppet.#

No Bunnyman, that's part of the QE2 complex - believe me. You can see it from Strand Street :cheers:

:D Funny boy!

Tram/bus stop taking shape both sides of Canning Place, the security guy on the gate reckons that this part of the job is scheduled to open on the 16th!!! when I queried it he was said he was sure it was 16/06/05. I'm no building worker but it looks to me like there is some way to go yet.

http://img278.echo.cx/img278/6057/canningtramstop63vr.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)


http://img169.echo.cx/img169/3139/canningtramstop73yk.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)


http://img169.echo.cx/img169/3572/canningtramstop85ga.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)


http://img169.echo.cx/img169/3150/canningtramstop99qr.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

Radio Merseyside
http://img296.echo.cx/img296/8186/radiom58ru.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)


http://img296.echo.cx/img296/3076/radiom61rn.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

Herberts, not much to see here yet.
http://img296.echo.cx/img296/9189/herberts26eb.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)


http://img296.echo.cx/img296/926/herberts36rf.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

Thanks for those Doug! :) How deep are they going for the foundations of Herbets? Was there a basement or something there before the car park?

Did you take your elevated shots from the scabby NCP car park on Hanover Street, near the American bar? :?

Bustcapl and myself are off on a walkabout tomorrow if you fancy joining in?

Badge, I saw the walkabout on the meet-up thread, but I can't make it tomorrow.

I thought the Herbet's site was just derelict open space with a couple of very old shops just into the School Lane part, I think one of the shops used to sell all kinds of knives? yeh from the top of the Hanover St. MSCP.

[QUOTE=Bunnyman]How deep were the foundations of Herbets? Was there a basement or something there before [\QUOTE]

They're building Herbert's secret Dungeon of Delights. I'm sticking with Mr Tops barbers for six quid myself.

Sod that! I don't even want to know what Dirty Herbie is into...

Is that canopy thing the whole bus/tram stop, it seems a bit small?

Those pics show how fast the site is coming along, the BBC building is growing fast.

9 days to the 16th,can't see it ready by then.

Fantastic photos, Doug. Second from last photo, does anyone know if that is where a shop is that sells spare parts for Philips electric razors? I love little shops like that, I hope they don't get driven out by the redevelopment.

It's good to see things moving along so rapidly at PSDA. I can't wait to explore when it is finally complete. Cheers Doug.

Site 11 is supposed to be an 10 story landamrk hotel

http://www.liverpoolpsda.co.uk/ProjectDetails/DetailedProjectPlans/site11.htm

yet the webcams and photos show only a smallish building going up and is referred to a ticket office on the PSDA webcam

http://www.liverpoolpsda.co.uk/Webcam/

It also appears that the site cabins are in the way of anything the size of the orginal plans. As theres been no announcrment of a hotel operator does this mean the site 11 plans have been changed (downgraded)

Anyone who has visited the visitor centre or anyone else know as this site is critical to the new park and if its been downgraded would not be a good sign ?

Thoughts ?

Liverpolitan, yes the shop I think you are referring to is the Shaver Centre in School Lane and is still in business. I always shop there and agree with you in hoping it can survive PDSA.

http://img291.echo.cx/img291/8028/strand33ec.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

This site on the Strand is a bit of a puzzle, it is clearly on the location of the tram line but as Martin says that section of tram is now waitng for Line 2. I checked the PDSA model in Lord St and it is very close to the underground access points for the Chavasse Park car park. These access points are in the central reservation of the Strand and are therefore about 30/40 feet away from the site. What does the piling machine suggest?? could it be to reinforce the dock wall?? when the excavations begin, any ideas?? anyone.

Is it not the new Liverpool Maritime Museum building that recieved planning permission a few months ago? Based upon a previous warehouse long demolished.

Site 11 is supposed to be an 10 story landamrk hotel

http://www.liverpoolpsda.co.uk/ProjectDetails/DetailedProjectPlans/site11.htm

yet the webcams and photos show only a smallish building going up and is referred to a ticket office on the PSDA webcam

http://www.liverpoolpsda.co.uk/Webcam/

It also appears that the site cabins are in the way of anything the size of the orginal plans. As theres been no announcrment of a hotel operator does this mean the site 11 plans have been changed (downgraded)

Anyone who has visited the visitor centre or anyone else know as this site is critical to the new park and if its been downgraded would not be a good sign ?

Thoughts ?
probably just a mistake

is a shopping center u/c and will it be as good as nottinghams victoria shopping center???thats the big question

It's not a shopping centre.

is a shopping center u/c and will it be as good as nottinghams victoria shopping center???thats the big question

No chance Bob. The Victoria has a Cromwells Madhouse and a KFC.

Well said squirrel.

is a shopping center u/c and will it be as good as nottinghams victoria shopping center???thats the big question

Bob, this is the fourth time you have asked this question but in various ways.

As Liverdude says, it's not a shopping centre. It is an additional shopping area covering 43 acres and I believe will have a larger retail area then the Trafford Centre near ;) Manchester.

So in answer to your question, I would imagine it would have more retail outlets than Nottingham's Victoria Shopping Centre but I've no idea how big the Victoria Shopping Centre is.

I must admit though, I was impressed by the shopping in Nottingham when I was there 4 or 5 years ago.

http://img291.echo.cx/img291/8028/strand33ec.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

This site on the Strand is a bit of a puzzle, it is clearly on the location of the tram line but as Martin says that section of tram is now waitng for Line 2. I checked the PDSA model in Lord St and it is very close to the underground access points for the Chavasse Park car park. These access points are in the central reservation of the Strand and are therefore about 30/40 feet away from the site. What does the piling machine suggest?? could it be to reinforce the dock wall?? when the excavations begin, any ideas?? anyone.

Mmm, is a puzzle Doug, could be piling to protect the main interceptor sewer that runs along the line of the Strand, which should be to deep to interfear with the access slip ramps to the underground car park. Or could be service diversions for line 2 of M-Tram, although this part of the system will be built later with the proposed Mann Island developments due to be built by 2008, it would make sense to carry out this work now. This is a wild guess but it could be a mini-underground sub-station to provide power to the tram. :) The city would not like ugly little buildings appearing in this sensative location.

Having looked at all the possable reasons for a piling rig next to the dock,it could be "soil investigation" for the proposed NEPTUNE mixed development of offices and apartments that are to be built on the remaining part of the "Fourth Grace" plot. The new Museum of Liverpool will only take up approx. 30% of this site.

Site 11 is supposed to be an 10 story landamrk hotel

http://www.liverpoolpsda.co.uk/ProjectDetails/DetailedProjectPlans/site11.htm

yet the webcams and photos show only a smallish building going up and is referred to a ticket office on the PSDA webcam

http://www.liverpoolpsda.co.uk/Webcam/

It also appears that the site cabins are in the way of anything the size of the orginal plans. As theres been no announcrment of a hotel operator does this mean the site 11 plans have been changed (downgraded)

Anyone who has visited the visitor centre or anyone else know as this site is critical to the new park and if its been downgraded would not be a good sign ?

Thoughts ?

As far as I know site 11 will be built as plan, a transport interchange (ticket office) at ground level which will form a podium for the proposed 10 storey hotel.
The site offices are located between this building and the corner site which is the John Lewis store, the huts are on the line of the Cesar Pelli designed "grand staircase" giving access from the bus/tram interchange into Chavasse Park. It will not be "downgraded" as the height and shape of this hotel is crucial to the overall design of the park ,forming part of the " elipse in the sky" that Pelli has called it.

few pics from the top of the NCP car park (soon to be flattened thankfully)

http://onfinite.com/libraries/486305/1d1.jpg

http://onfinite.com/libraries/486304/ac5.jpg

http://onfinite.com/libraries/486303/cab.jpg

http://onfinite.com/libraries/486302/e99.jpg

http://onfinite.com/libraries/486301/f16.jpg

http://onfinite.com/libraries/486300/167.jpg

All fantastic, but number 3 - I'm lovin' that one!

Some crackin' pics there Yuppie. :cheers:

Does anyone know what other stores are planned for PSDA apart from the main ones - John Lewis & Debenham's?

Haven't a clue. There was talk of an Alders on Renshaw St at one point in time.
Looking what has happened to them recently I think we can all put that idea to bed now.

Haven't a clue. There was talk of an Alders on Renshaw St at one point in time.
Looking what has happened to them recently I think we can all put that idea to bed now.

Harvey Nicholls was mentioned in the early days, but that was before the one in Manchester opened.

Site 5a on the plan, behind the Bluecoat, is described as a 3 storey anchor store. It seems like the perfect site for a Harvey Nicks, if you ask me, and surely Liverpool could support one? There may be one in Manc now, but we have Colleen McLoughlin living here: she could fund half the store off her own back...

Of Waynes back more like. Has she ever done a days work in her life? :?

:) Looks like work is starting in earnest on the replacement building for Herberts - there's a crane base in position, the first time I've known David McLean use a tower crane. :cheers:

What I don`t understand is why there hasn`t been any thought to keying in the PDSA to a new Loop/Link line station?

With the amount of money being spent and the size of the dig it wouldn`t have taken much of an effort to think about plugging into the underground.

With the downtown density increasing and the Merseytrams serving other areas it would make future sense.

As it is you can walk by tunnel from Moorfields to Old Hall Street and India Building to James Street and pop into Lewis from Central station......

Perhaps they have a reason but I can`t think of one.

It seems a glaring omission in the big plan.

Trams and trains and boats and planes.......... :)

Does anyone know what other stores are planned for PSDA apart from the main ones - John Lewis & Debenham's?

The Echo was saying last year that there was a possability of Macey's having a store there but nothing has been heard about it since.

There are only two main department stores as far as I know.

does london have a macey's?

Wasn't there a proposal for an underground somewhere between Paradise Street and Whitechapel? The problem is/was it would be on the Wirral Line, part of the loop so the Northern Line passengers would probably just change at Central anyway and the Wirral passangers at James Street rather than go right round.

Macey's is a cross between BHS and the late lamented C&A, at sale time. Liverpool does not need one of those.

What I don`t understand is why there hasn`t been any thought to keying in the PDSA to a new Loop/Link line station?

With James Street station right on the door step i'm sure a pedestrian subway can be added at a very small additional cost. Maybe someone should poin this out to Grovernor.

What is wrong with the pavements? Can people not walk for 5 minutes these days without some kind of underground travelator link? Sloyne, the case for subways in Liverpool is completely different than that in Toronto, where cold winters are a factor. In Liverpool, subways for pedestrians are not to do with weather, and everything to do with a 1960s "cars are cool" attitude amongst planners. Believe me, people can enjoy a nice stroll through the city from Paraside Street to James Street or Central stations.

With James Street station right on the door step i'm sure a pedestrian subway can be added at a very small additional cost. Maybe someone should poin this out to Grovernor.

I'm trying to recall any pleasant pedestrian subways I have walked through, and none spring to mind. They do seem to hark back to the 60s a bit. the one in front of Lime St station needs to be filled in, lets not build any more.

the one in front of Lime St station needs to be filled in

Thankfully it is!

Sloyne, the case for subways in Liverpool is completely different than that in Toronto, where cold winters are a factor.

Quite an understatement and, yes, your probably right. As is Blabbernsmoke, I was forgetting how bad subways are in Britain.

http://onfinite.com/libraries/486301/f16.jpg



The half-built building up the end of the street in the middle - the steel core - that's been like that since I was 17. I'm now 23. When the fuck are they going to do something with that???

That's the Met Quater and it is finally being redeveloped,thankfully. :)

Can you believe that Wade Smiths/Halifax is being left up even though PSDA is right next to it?!?

That is the Met Quarter. Finally a use has been found for it and it will be a fully functioning upmarket shopping centre by Feb next year. See Martin's development summary. There is also a thread hanging around (perhaps on page 2) covering its construction.

Beat me Paul!

Hopefully it will look so disgraceful next to PDSA that they'll pull 'em down at the same time as they do something about sprucing up Church/Lord St.

Liverpolitan, yes the shop I think you are referring to is the Shaver Centre in School Lane and is still in business. I always shop there and agree with you in hoping it can survive PDSA.

http://img291.echo.cx/img291/8028/strand33ec.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

This site on the Strand is a bit of a puzzle, it is clearly on the location of the tram line but as Martin says that section of tram is now waitng for Line 2. I checked the PDSA model in Lord St and it is very close to the underground access points for the Chavasse Park car park. These access points are in the central reservation of the Strand and are therefore about 30/40 feet away from the site. What does the piling machine suggest?? could it be to reinforce the dock wall?? when the excavations begin, any ideas?? anyone.This is to reinforce the dock wall, as there is a sign on the fencing saying so. The trams will be constantly rolling along the current walkway at the edge of the dock, so the tram lines look like they will be built on top of drilled piles or something.

I just think it`s a wasted opportunity not to key into the regional rail network when some body else is doing most of the digging.....and on that subject it`s a pity that "Moorfields" didn`t get a make over or be incorporated into the "City Square" development when it was being constructed.

I just think it`s a wasted opportunity not to key into the regional rail network when some body else is doing most of the digging.....and on that subject it`s a pity that "Moorfields" didn`t get a make over or be incorporated into the "City Square" development when it was being constructed.

There are only two main department stores as far as I know.

I thought there was going to be three. :dunno:

Juxt, thanks for the info.

Does anybody else think the name of Chav-Ass-e park should be changed?

Does anybody else think the name of Chav-Ass-e park should be changed?


No (http://www.chavasse.u-net.com/chavasse.html).

http://www.chavasse.u-net.com/images/chavasse.jpg

Aaah, fair enough. S'pose that is a good reason.

The park is named after Noel Chavasse, who won two VCs during the First World War. He was the son of Bishop Chavasse who was responsible for the building of the Anglican Cathedral.

Does anybody else think the name of Chav-Ass-e park should be changed?

I'd hope that could be avoided for the reasons others have gave.
If that nickname snowballed though....???

Is he getting a monument or anything as part of the development?

I thought there was going to be three. :dunno:

2 main ones and a smaller one on Renshaw I think.
Depends what you define as "main" I guess.

Awayo, thanks for the link very interesting, Noel Chavasse a true hero.

intresting awayo you learn something new every day on here.

No (http://www.chavasse.u-net.com/chavasse.html).

The bravest of all are were those who refused to fight in that insane war. Only the poshest got the highest accolades, working class people were brave but it was taken for granted and they usually got no acknowledgement at all. Chavasse is a posh Norman sounding name from a posh family from Oxford.

I am not saying he wasn't brave, but who knows what really happened, and what about the millions of others who showed bravery in that hideous war - but weren't priveliged or posh enough for that to count? Do they get streets and parks named after them?

I wish his memory and his family no disrespect when I say that I don't favour a park being named after him. But the name of that park offends my idea of an egalitarian city. Who was that street musician that Dave posted bits of a biography of some time ago? I think he's more deserving to have a park named after him. He struggled against adversity, had huge courage and talent, and excelled. He wasn't posh or valued, because in those days the upper middle classes were valued above others.

Who was that street musician that Dave posted bits of a biography of some time ago? .

Seth Davy? Twangy?

Seth Davy? Twangy?

I can't remember, which is a good reason to name a park after him so we can't forget. There are too many threads these days, it's hard to find things. Not that they aren't all good threads (the Mancs have been happy posting about "music" all day, and then complain that we are SPAM city), but I just can't remember where things are, and the site is so slow to search and pages so slow to load............anyway, he was a street artist. You may be right about the name.

Well, it's almost a century ago now, Poli and attitudes about class and deference have changed. It seems as if the man was a decent sort and very brave, even if he also appears to have been somewhat fetishised in death. It would have been useful by the powers that be to use thrilling stories of the sacrifice of attractive characters such as Chevasse and Edith Cavill for propaganda purposes. However, these individuals' tales can act as symbols for the greater trajedy of the war in general, and must have been a way for people to deal with what was happening at the time.

For myself, I cannot walk past Edith Cavill's statue off Trafalgar Square or see the name of Chavasse Court above Lord Street in Liverpool without thinking for a moment at least about the First World War and the horror and pity of war in general. So, I don't resent Edith her statue or Chavasse his park even if millions of others who perished don't get such special treatment.

Well, it's almost a century ago now, Poli and attitudes about class and deference have changed. It seems as if the man was a decent sort and very brave, even if he also appears to have been somewhat fetishised in death. It would have been useful by the powers that be to use thrilling stories of the sacrifice of attractive characters such as Chevasse and Edith Cavill for propaganda purposes. However, these individuals' tales can act as symbols for the greater trajedy of the war in general, and must have been a way for people to deal with what was happening at the time.

For myself, I cannot walk past Edith Cavill's statue off Trafalgar Square or see the name of Chavasse Court above Lord Street in Liverpool without thinking for a moment at least about the First World War and the horror and pity of war in general. So, I don't resent Edith her statue or Chavasse his park even if millions of others who perished don't get such special treatment.

Totally Agree. Everone knows about the tragedy of the war and that is the abiding collective memory of it. To try and take positives from such tragedy is a natural healing mechanism. I personally would like to see something made for Wilfred Owen, whose poems perfectly sum up this war and are particularly poignant since he died in combat. He was from Birkenhead.

The bravest of all are were those who refused to fight in that insane war. Only the poshest got the highest accolades, working class people were brave but it was taken for granted and they usually got no acknowledgement at all. Chavasse is a posh Norman sounding name from a posh family from Oxford.

I am not saying he wasn't brave, but who knows what really happened,

Can you please expand on your "I am not saying he wasn't brave, but who knows what really happened" as I don't know what this means?

Can you please expand on your "I am not saying he wasn't brave, but who knows what really happened" as I don't know what this means?

Fair question, it is badly written. I mean that he may have been in a situation in which a number of people were brave, but as the only toff he was the one whose bravery was commended. I was not questioning his bravery, simply pointing out that the culture then was to reward the bravery of toffs and poshies more readily than that of commoners.

Fair question, it is badly written. I mean that he may have been in a situation in which a number of people were brave, but as the only toff he was the one whose bravery was commended. I was not questioning his bravery, simply pointing out that the culture then was to reward the bravery of toffs and poshies more readily than that of commoners.
In that case, there's a shit load of streets, monuments, and plaques that require to be renamed.

This is to reinforce the dock wall, as there is a sign on the fencing saying so. The trams will be constantly rolling along the current walkway at the edge of the dock, so the tram lines look like they will be built on top of drilled piles or something.

http://www.liverpoolviews.co.uk/hanover/paradise/paradock.jpg

Todays announcement sort of screws that one up - no trams !

Todays announcement sort of screws that one up - no trams !
yep plus all the lines have been ordered in advance no need now :cry:

For anybody concerned about `Merseytrams` - see

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/trams/

see also

http://www.ealing.gov.uk/services/transportandstreets/west+london+tram.asp

The Mayor of London Ken Livingston is pushing very hard for tram schemes.

Some are popular - currently the one proposed for West London has a lot of n.i.m.b.y opposition.....which is quite unbelievable considering the congestion and the benefits it would bring......though at `cost.`

Never the less - you can be almost assured that any required costs for London Transport will be found ..... including the previous over budget "Jubilee Line extension" to the "Dome" which was of course of national importance. (sic)

Well the "Merseytram" project is important to a) local transport on Merseyside, b) the current keyed in reconstruction of Liverpool City Centre and many of the current schemes already under development, c) European Capital of Culture 2008 and d) any possible belief that a politician is worth his `salt` in future.

In that case, there's a shit load of streets, monuments, and plaques that require to be renamed.

But as far as I know, this "park" is modern, and was named long after we should have got over these "on our knees" attitudes as to who deserves to be acknowledged and why. Also, it's never been more than a temporary use of the land really, pending proper redevelopment (as buildings, or even in part as a proper public place). So I still don't favour retention of that name for this space - it is a regressive and inappropriate naming. And I repeat that my view is in no sense a sign of disrespect to any of the countless thousands who showed bravery in wars a century ago or any former wars. I just don't think Liverpool should be elevating the memory of a posh person whose behaviour would probably not have been noted let alone remembered and rewarded if he or she was a member of the working class.

Even today, with our feudal honours system, we reward "Other Buggers Efforts", and all of us must know people who have been acknowledged in that way despite rather than because of their contribution. That is NOT a slur on this man, I am sure he did what was reported, but there was and still is a habit of only rewarding those who are deemed worthy of it.

Re, Chevasse in war time.

Was it not for the winning (or being awarded) the `Victoria Cross` a very rare national award for bravery?

I think one was awarded just recently.....and not expected by the soldier.

It must make a change to be rewarded before death and not after.

But "War ain`t good"

As they say "Jaw jaw" not "War war."

I don't think it should be renamed on the grounds that it would probably be called something daft and inane like 'Capital of Culture Park' or 'New City Park'. A name that probably wouldn't make a statement about the city anyway.

Chavasse also went to my school too.

Try these links.....for posh and common.

http://www.victoriacross.net/default.asp

http://www.victoriacross.org.uk/vcross.htm

http://www.mersey-gateway.org/server.php?show=ConNarrative.153&chapterId=1196

http://www.mersey-gateway.org/server.php?show=ConNarrative.153&chapterId=1195

How about calling it MARINERS PROSPECT ?

Re, Chevasse in war time.

Was it not for the winning (or being awarded) the `Victoria Cross` a very rare national award for bravery?

I think one was awarded just recently.....and not expected by the soldier.

It must make a change to be rewarded before death and not after.

But "War ain`t good"

As they say "Jaw jaw" not "War war."

Chevasse was rewarded the VC twice. I suggest Poli reads Chevasse Double VC by Ann Clayton. ISBN 085052296X. Until then, I consider Poli to be writing out of complete ignorance regarding this man.

But as far as I know, this "park" is modern, and was named long after we should have got over these "on our knees" attitudes as to who deserves to be acknowledged and why. Also, it's never been more than a temporary use of the land really, pending proper redevelopment (as buildings, or even in part as a proper public place). So I still don't favour retention of that name for this space - it is a regressive and inappropriate naming. And I repeat that my view is in no sense a sign of disrespect to any of the countless thousands who showed bravery in wars a century ago or any former wars. I just don't think Liverpool should be elevating the memory of a posh person whose behaviour would probably not have been noted let alone remembered and rewarded if he or she was a member of the working class.

Even today, with our feudal honours system, we reward "Other Buggers Efforts", and all of us must know people who have been acknowledged in that way despite rather than because of their contribution. That is NOT a slur on this man, I am sure he did what was reported, but there was and still is a habit of only rewarding those who are deemed worthy of it.

Poli, what did Chevasse do to deserve his Victoria Cross and Bar? You haven't bothered to check have you? Your only knowledge of the man appears to be that he's a bit posh! Can I please appeal to you and anyone else who is writing on this subject out of ignorance to make an effort and find a little bit more about Chevasse. He wasn't a warrior or a fighting man. If anyone deserved a monument or landmark named after him (even more so, in the current PC world we live in), it was Captain Noel Godfrey Chavasse.

Poli, what did Chevasse do to deserve his Victoria Cross and Bar? You haven't bothered to check have you? Your only knowledge of the man appears to be that he's a bit posh! Can I please appeal to you and anyone else who is writing on this subject out of ignorance to make an effort and find a little bit more about Chevasse. He wasn't a warrior or a fighting man. If anyone deserved a monument or landmark named after him (even more so, in the current PC world we live in), it was Captain Noel Godfrey Chavasse.
Well said Dave!!!....Its good to see at least someone knows what they are talking about and proves liverpolitan likes to express his own opinions based on absolutletly no facts or knowledge on subjects like this.....poli - maybe u should first investigate, as dave says, the reasons behind why Chavasse gained the victoria cross and why the majority of people have gained it....maybe then you could give comment as to why they should not be commended for these services......a chavasse pub next to doctor duncs would be good too!!! :)

Well said Dave!!!....Its good to see at least someone knows what they are talking about and proves liverpolitan likes to express his own opinions based on absolutletly no facts or knowledge on subjects like this.....poli - maybe u should first investigate, as dave says, the reasons behind why Chavasse gained the victoria cross and why the majority of people have gained it....maybe then you could give comment as to why they should not be commended for these services......a chavasse pub next to doctor duncs would be good too!!! :)

New mate, my reply to Poli was only regarding Chavasse and nothing else. It's also a pity I can't spell his bloody name correctly (Chavasse's not Poli's :) )

By the way, I have purposely not mentioned how Chavasse earned his Victoria Cross and Bar. I'm hoping this will encourage people to do some research into this posh bloke and then make an informed opinion as to whether he deserved to have some green space named after. :cheers:

Chevasse was rewarded the VC twice. I suggest Poli reads Chevasse Double VC by Ann Clayton. ISBN 085052296X. Until then, I consider Poli to be writing out of complete ignorance regarding this man.

We are not in the same world on this topic. My point is that middle and upper class people were more likely to have bravery recognised and rewarded. It's the same with the honours system, which is blatantly class-organised, with big awards for the high-ups, and patronising little awards for the lower downs.

I am saying that there were countless acts of heroism, and heroes, whose heroism was never acknowledged because in those days they tended to regard officers rather than their men as those who had been brave. I read the link which contained a potted biography and details of his life, and that of his brother, and compelling evidence that here was someone who was brave and who deserves respect.

So, I am not denying his bravery, I am arguing that its recognition is no longer valid enough to justify relative distinction over the (unrecorded bravery of others) because we now know that the system then often ignored the bravery of working class soldiers of humble origins and lower ranks.

Some very brave working class men who subsequently got shell-shock were executed for cowardice. That punishment was almost exclusively reserved for the working classes. In a socially just and progressive society, we should remember their contribution and sacrifice as well.

My objection is that this is a modern naming of a public place, when we now know more about these things, so I am not calling for all historic place and street names to be called into question.

Well said Dave!!!....Its good to see at least someone knows what they are talking about and proves liverpolitan likes to express his own opinions based on absolutletly no facts or knowledge on subjects like this.....poli - maybe u should first investigate, as dave says, the reasons behind why Chavasse gained the victoria cross and why the majority of people have gained it....maybe then you could give comment as to why they should not be commended for these services......a chavasse pub next to doctor duncs would be good too!!! :)

I am sorry, New, but you have misunderstood. I am not questioning the recorded bravery of a few, I am saying that middle and upper class people were more likely to have their bravery noticed and rewarded than working class people. We lived then in a tightly class-bound society. It is something that as a society we have progressed from - not enough - but certainly enough to be able to find a better way of naming public parks.

I am simply saying I don't agree with this naming of a park - not because I don't respect the bravery of people who fought in wars - no matter how futile and misguided such wars may or may not have been - but because I don't accept that the system of rewarding bravery during WW1 was equitable between the classes.

We are not in the same world on this topic. My point is that middle and upper class people were more likely to have bravery recognised and rewarded. It's the same with the honours system, which is blatantly class-organised, with big awards for the high-ups, and patronising little awards for the lower downs.

I am saying that there were countless acts of heroism, and heroes, whose heroism was never acknowledged because in those days they tended to regard officers rather than their men as those who had been brave. I read the link which contained a potted biography and details of his life, and that of his brother, and compelling evidence that here was someone who was brave and who deserves respect.

So, I am not denying his bravery, I am arguing that its recognition is no longer valid enough to justify relative distinction over the (unrecorded bravery of others) because we now know that the system then often ignored the bravery of working class soldiers of humble origins and lower ranks.

Some very brave working class men who subsequently got shell-shock were executed for cowardice. That punishment was almost exclusively reserved for the working classes. In a socially just and progressive society, we should remember their contribution and sacrifice as well.

My objection is that this is a modern naming of a public place, when we now know more about these things, so I am not calling for all historic place and street names to be called into question.

Poli, please mate, stop your blathering and take a little of your time to read about the man.

You mention shell-shock. Chavasse had strong views on this.

I am sorry, New, but you have misunderstood. I am not questioning the recorded bravery of a few, I am saying that middle and upper class people were more likely to have their bravery noticed and rewarded than working class people. We lived then in a tightly class-bound society. It is something that as a society we have progressed from - not enough - but certainly enough to be able to find a better way of naming public parks.

I am simply saying I don't agree with this naming of a park - not because I don't respect the bravery of people who fought in wars - no matter how futile and misguided such wars may or may not have been - but because I don't accept that the system of rewarding bravery during WW1 was equitable between the classes.


Poli, please mate, stop your blathering and take a little of your time to read about the man.

Poli, please mate, stop your blathering and take a little of your time to read about the man.

Okay, I will, as you ask. But if I find he is awe-inspiring, as the short biography implies I will do, I might still be left wondering about the others, including relatives of mine who fought in that war, or in one case died as a result of gassing. They were expected to die, and to sacrifice their lives without any recognition, and generally speaking those who came from the slums were not generally rewarded for any bravery they did show in the way that those who came from rectories and grand houses were. I feel quite strongly about this topic, is is both personal and political at the same time. But I can see you do as well, so I will read more about him before I post anything else on the topic of what is a suitable name for this park.

Okay, I will, as you ask. But if I find he is awe-inspiring, as the short biography implies I will do, I might still be left wondering about the others, including relatives of mine who fought in that war, or in one case died as a result of gassing. They were expected to die, and to sacrifice their lives without any recognition, and generally speaking those who came from the slums were not generally rewarded for any bravery they did show in the way that those who came from rectories and grand houses were. I feel quite strongly about this topic, is is both personal and political at the same time. But I can see you do as well, so I will read more about him before I post anything else on the topic of what is a suitable name for this park.

Am I correct in presuming that at this very moment of writing, after all the exchange of posts on Chavasse, you know nothing about this man apart from that you feel he is posh?

Am I correct in presuming that at this very moment of writing, after all the exchange of posts on Chavasse, you know nothing about this man apart from that you feel he is posh?

No, someone posted a link to a biography of him, which I will find and post, so at least you will know the little I know of him.

Awayo posted a link to this, which I read before I posted. As I have said, I think he is a hero, and I think if I learned more about him I would feel more strongly that that was the case. But I also feel that the recognition of heroism during that war tended to ignore the working class, and that acts of heroism by some working class people would not have been noticed, recorded and rewarded as justly. It isn't an attack on this chap to suggest that others may have been as brave, but we don't know who they are, because they were working class.


"Captain Noel Godfrey Chavasse, VC and Bar, MC, RAMC. (1884-1917)



Captain Noel Chavasse was Medical Officer of the 10th (Liverpool Scottish) Battalion, the King's (Liverpool) Regiment, during the first three years of the First World War. He was the only man to win the British Military's highest award for valour, the Victoria Cross, twice during the Great War. Only two other men have achieved this honour, Captain Arthur Martin-Leake who won his first VC during the Anglo-Boer War in 1901 and his second in 1915 during the First World War, both men were in the Royal Army Medical Corp . The second of these men was Captain Charles Upham, a New Zealander serving with 20th Bn, 2nd NZEF (The Canterbury Regiment) who won his first VC as a Second Lieutenant in Crete between 22 and 30 May 1941 and his Bar on 14/15 July 1942 at El Ruweisat Ridge, Western Desert as a Captain. during the Second World War. There is a further connection between these three men that I will explain later.

Noel Godfrey Chavasse was the second of two identical twin boys born to the Rev. Francis James Chavasse and Edith Jane Chavasse (nee Maude) on Sunday 9th November, 1884 at 36 New Inn Hall Street, Oxford. Christopher Maude was born 20 minutes before his brother. In all there were seven children born to the Chavasse Family, these were (oldest first) Dorothea, Christopher, Noel, Edith, Mary, Francis and Aidan. The twins were very small and weak at birth that their baptism was delayed until 29th December, 1884 and both were very ill with typhoid in their first year of life.

The family grew up in Oxford until on 3rd March, 1900, Rev. Chavasse was offered the the Anglican Bishopric of Liverpool. The move was not without regrets as Liverpool during this time was one of the busiest seaports in the Empire and also had a great deal of religious turmoil in progress. The family moved to the Bishop's Palace at 19 Abercromby Square, Liverpool. Noel and Christopher went to school at Liverpool College where they excelled at sports from the start. Their academic progress was (to start with) rather slower but as they grew older, both boys did well until in 1904, both young men returned to Oxford, having been admitted to Trinity College. 1904 was a significant year in another way as Bishop Chavasse's long held dream of building a Cathedral fit for a city of the stature of Liverpool, finally came to fruition when on Tuesday, 19th July, 1904, King Edward VII and Queen Alexandra laid the foundation stone.

In 1907, Noel graduated with First Class Honours but Christopher failed and this lead him to a nervous breakdown. Both of them stayed at Oxford, Noel to study medicine and Christopher to retake his exams. During their time at Trinity, both men had not neglected their sports, Rugby being a favourite of theirs. It wasn't in Rugby that their highest achievement came, that came in 1908 when they were asked to represent Great Britain in the Olympic Games in the 400 metres. Noel finished second in his heat while Christopher finished third, neither time was fast enough to progress further.

In January 1909, Noel joined the Oxford University Officer Training Corps Medical Unit. He must have been a natural as by the following May, he was promoted to lance-sergeant. It must have been difficult for him as he felt he had been promoted over the heads of some senior corporals and additionally his unit was inspected by General John French, on June 5th, 1909, who in 1912 became Chief of the Imperial General Staff. Noel finished his studies at Oxford in July 1909 and returned to Liverpool to continue his studies under such eminent teachers as Robert Jones who went on to become a leading authority in orthopaedic surgery

Now Noel was back home, he resumed his connection with Grafton Street Industrial School, an institution for homeless boys in Liverpool. In the autumn, Noel went to London to sit his examination for Fellowship of the Royal College of Surgeons, he failed but it appears that he was ill at this time and when he sat it again in May, 1910, he passed it with ease. Christopher, in the mean time was well into his studies for the Ministry under his father's guiding hand. Noel progressed through his studies having studied pathology and bacteriology. As part of his course, he was obliged to undertake a hospital 'placement', he found a position at the Rotunda Hospital in Dublin. Whilst Noel liked Dublin, his first experience of living in a Roman Catholic community disturbed him. He took a dislike to the local priesthood whom he considered lazy and avaricious.

January, 1912 saw Noel pass his final medical examination, he did very well. In fact in March, the University awarded him their premier prize, the Derby Exhibition.. On 22nd July, 1912, Noel registered with the General Medical Council, he was now a doctor. His first placement was at the Royal Southern Hospital in Liverpool, initially until 31st March 1913, it was renewed for a further six months at the end of which time Noel was delighted to accept the position of house surgeon to Robert Jones himself. It was in early 1913 that after discussions with some of his fellow doctors that Noel applied for and was accepted by the Royal Army Medical Corps (R.A.M.C.) and thanks to one of his mentors, a Dr McAlistair, who was then Surgeon-Captain of the 10th Batallion of the Kings (Liverpool Regiment), the Liverpool Scottish, he was attached to the battalion as surgeon-lieutenant. The 10th Kings had been a Territorial Battalion since the Haldane Reforms in 1909. Noel joined the battalion on 2nd June, 1913 and was welcomed by Lieutenant-Colonel W. Nicholl, the Commanding Officer. Noel now was a very busy man, he still had his medical career to attend to as well as his Territorial duties.

The Great War

Only twelve months had passed when the storm clouds of war appeared on the horizon. On 28th June, 1914, Archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria was assassinated in Sarajevo by Gavrilo Princip. Noel was preparing for a two week summer camp with the battalion and signed the leave book at the Southern Hospital from 2nd to 16th August, he was never to return to his position, on 4th August 1914 Britain declared war on Germany. Being a Territorial Battalion, the 10th Kings were not obliged to serve overseas but on 10th August, whilst Noel was examining recruits at Chester, he heard that his C.O. had offered to serve in France. There is evidence that Noel was prepared to use the friendship between Bishop Chavasse and Lord Derby, who was the Director General of Recruiting, for his own purposes, however it was Christopher who was the first member of the family to make it to France, he became Chaplain to Number 10 General Hospital at St Nazaire. Noel did not have long to wait, on 9th October, 1914, orders were received for the battalion to move to Tonbridge Wells in Kent, prior to moving overseas. Much training and equipping went on until on 1st November, 1914, the battalion climbed on board a train destined for Southampton Docks and France. Appropriately, the ship that carried them was a Liverpool ship, the Maidan, captained by a Birkenhead man. It arrived at Le Havre at 7am on 2nd November.

Moving forward, Noel was determined to save everyone from the effects of the oncoming winter and the dangers of living in the open. Tetanus was on ongoing worry for him as there was no vaccine (the vaccine for it wasn't developed until the 1930's). He obtained and was one of the first doctors to use anti-tetanus serum on wounded men. This serum was a great success, over eleven million doses were administered during the war and very few men developed tetanus as a result. The battalion moved into the front line for the first time on Friday 27th November near Kemmel. Noel's first patient was Captain Arthur Twentyman who was hit in the chest by a bullet only twenty four hours after arriving, he died of his wound. Noel soon became aware that his expectations of being safe behind the lines was fallacious, his speed as exhibited in 1908, saved him from snipers in dashes across open areas more than once. Trench foot appeared early as the trenches around Ypres were notorious for the wet conditions. His charges had been standing in mud and water for 72 hours and more casualties were caused by this than by enemy action (The Liverpool Scottish had started with 829 men and 26 officers but by the first week in January, 1915 there were only 370 fit men, only 32 had been killed). The filth bothered Noel a lot as there was no way he could treat his wounded men with clean hands. By the time he had cut through the muddy uniform, he would be as filthy as his patients.

March 1915 brought change to the battalion as they were transferred into the Ypres Salient (near Hill 60) just in time for the Second Battle of Ypres when poison gas was used for the first time in April 1915, Noel managed to get his father to send out a gramophone for the battalion which went down very well. The battalion were not directly affected by the chlorine release by the Germans but it had caused much alarm. At this time Christopher had to act at the execution of a soldier (I'm not sure who it was but watch this space) which affected him deeply and he spent long hours (when he could) meeting Noel and talking about it. June 1915 brought the death of the first member of the Chavasse family. Captain Francis Chavasse of the 1/3rd Sikh Pioneers was Noel's cousin and he was killed in Aden.

The 10th June, 1915 brought the battalion into the Battle of Hooge, by the time it finished, only 140 men and two officers were fit, Noel had lost most of his friends and Noel was recommended by his Commanding Officer for a Military Cross for his work during the battle but unfortunately, the recommendations were lost at Division level and not one of the battalion received any recognition for their actions ( Noel finally was awarded The Military Cross on 14 January, 1916, there was no citation in the London Gazette due to the lost recommendation and the length of the list). The battalion were granted leave after the battle and Noel was one of the lucky recipients.

Promotion

Noel was promoted to Captain in August 1915 and the next six months were spent in the gruelling tasks of trench warfare. Further promotions were denied him, primarily I think, because he was an outspoken critic of certain branches of the R.A.M.C. also because he was sympathetic to men who's nerves had gone. In February 1916, Noel again had some leave granted, he returned to his unit shortly before another cousin, Lt. Arthur Chavasse, also a doctor, died of pneumonia on 12th March. Early in April, Noel learned he was being granted three days leave to return to London to receive his Military Cross personally from King George V. Unfortunately his award was postponed and after many delays, he finally went to Buckingham Palace on Tuesday 7th June, 1916, almost a year since the Battle of Hooge. The Battle of the Somme started on 1st July 1916 another of his cousins, Louis Maude was killed near Ovilliers. This greatly added to the fears of the older members of his family back home.

Guillemont

On 30th July 1916, The battalion was moved into the Somme battlefield near Mametz. The plan was for the battalion to be in reserve for an attack on Guillemont on 31st, but they were never used. The next week for the men was spent digging communication trenches. On 7th August, the battalion received orders to take part in an assault on Guillemont at 4:20am on the 8th. The battalion was part of 166th brigade and was again in reserve. The attack by 164th and 165th brigades was successful on the right but in the middle and left, it was held up. The Liverpool Irish in 164th Brigade appeared to be cut off near the railway station. The 166th were ordered to attack at 4:20am the following morning. The preparation for the attack didn't go well. The guides failed to turn up, and while waiting for fresh guides, they were caught in German shelling which caused casualties. Eventually the guides arrived but they only had the vaguest idea of the route. The battalion reached the jumping off trenches with only minutes to spare.

The attack was to be made past Trones Wood and Arrowhead Copse to capture the German front line trench and on into Guillemont. The attack started under a German bombardment of the trenches and no-mans-land. Heavy machine gun fire swept Death Valley and pinned down the attackers. In all four attempts were made by the battalion but all without success. The failed attack cost the Liverpool Scottish dear, out of a starting complement of twenty officers and about 600 men, five officers were killed, five were missing and seven wounded. Of the men, sixty nine were killed, twenty seven missing and 167 wounded. This attack was made over the same ground that 30th Division which incorporated 89th Brigade attacked on 30th July, 1916 with enormous casualties. 89th Brigade was manned with three Battalions of the Liverpool Pals. The Scottish must have known the men who lay so thickly on the ground over the ground they were attacking. What this did to their morale does not need any explaining.

During the action, Noel was wounded by two small shell splinters in his back, despite this, he performed the deeds that were to gain him his first VC. The evening of the attack saw Noel and a party of volunteers in no-mans-land helping bring in wounded men. He got as close 25 yards (23 metres) to the German front line where he found three men. This went on all night and throughout all this, a constant rain of snipers bullets and occasional bombing swept no-mans-land.

The battalion went back to a rest area at Valines west of Abbeville, Noel was granted sick leave to recover from his wound. He rejoined his battalion on 7th September near Delville Wood. Back in the thick of the fighting, he was again out rescuing men and treating those brought in to his Casualty Clearing Station. In early October Bishop Chavasse received a letter from Lord Derby which despite being "absolutely forbidden by War Office Rules" he informed the Bishop that "one of your sons in the RAMC attached to the Liverpool Territorials" had been forwarded to him and he "had the honour of forwarding his name to His Majesty for the bestowal of this magnificent Order (the V.C.) and I cannot tell you how pleased I was to do so". The Bishop wrote immediately to Noel who replied (with some scepticism) ".. till I see it in print I will not believe". He told no one else in the battalion.

The battalion moved from the Somme back to the Ypres Salient in the Weiltje sector, it was even more battered and grim than he remembered it. By this time, news started to reach the battalion of awards following the action at Guillemont. Two of Noel's stretcher bearers had been awarded the Distinguished Service Medal and two more the Military Medal then on 26th October, 1916 the London Gazette announced that Noel Godfrey Chavasse MC, RAMC had indeed been awarded the Victoria Cross. The Scottish received the news on 28th October and a celebration ensued, the officers held a dinner for Noel in a chateau at Elverdinghe. The citation in the London Gazette read:

During an attack he tended the wounded in the open all day, under heavy fire, frequently in view of the enemy. During the ensuing night he searched for wounded on the ground in front of the enemy's lines for four hours. Next day he took one stretcher-bearer to the advanced trenches, and, under heavy fire, carried an urgent case for 500 yards into safety, being wounded in the side by a shell splinter during the journey. The same night he took up a party of trusty volunteers, rescued three wounded men from a shell hole twenty five yards from the enemy's trench, buried the bodies of two officers and collected many identity discs, although fired on by bombs and machine guns. Altogether he saved the lives of some twenty badly wounded men, besides the ordinary cases which passed through his hands. His courage and self-sacrifice were beyond praise.



The reaction in Liverpool was ecstatic, the Bishop was feted and Noel was even included in a cigarette card series 'Victoria Cross Heroes' by Gallaghers. Noel was inundated by letters from all sorts of people and true to his character, he found time to reply to them all. Even Noel's sister May, a VAD at a hospital at Etaples found herself very much in demand.

Noel was transfered further back to a small hospital because he had got himself in trouble by criticising two spheres of the RAMC. His letters concerning the Field Ambulance and the treatment of venereal disease amongst the troops aroused a lot of ill feeling, even up to his Major General, but Noel insisted that what he had written was the truth and he refused to back down. Eventually the furore died down and by Christmas 1916, Noel was back with his beloved Scottish.

In February, 1917 Noel was granted 14 days leave, he went on 5th February to Buckingham Palace where he was one of seven men being invested. It is perhaps a sign of the times to note that he was only accompanied by four female relatives, all the male members of the family were in France. The medal was brought back to Liverpool by his cousin Marjorie for safe keeping in the Bishop's Palace. It was during this leave, he became engaged to his longtime sweetheart Gladys.

Noel returned to the Scottish and immediately found himself having to treat a condition, peculiar to kilted battalions in icy weather, frostbitten knees. The next few months were relatively quiet. On 9th April, Noel learned that his sister May, had been mentioned in Sir Douglas Haig's despatches for her services at Etaples. Noel was delighted. On 20th June, The Scottish moved to Zudausques, a village west of St Omer where they had a long stay training for the forthcoming offensive. The youngest Chavasse brother Aidan was transfered to the 17th Kings, a "Pals" battalion where another brother Bernard was Medical Officer.

The Third Battle of Ypres (Passchendaele)

On 7th June, 1917, 19 mines were exploded under the German front line on the Messines ridge. This Battle of Messines was a necessary prelude to the offensive that was to become the Third Battle of Ypres as it cleared the southern edge of the salient. None of the family were involved although they undoubtly would have heard the explosions, however, the Chavasse family luck was now fast running out.

On the 1st July, at Observatory Ridge, about 5 miles from Ypres and a mile from Hooge, the 17th Kings were in the front line. Lieutenant Aidan Chavasse and 8 men were out on a raiding party when they met a German patrol, in the fighting Aidan was wounded. When the party returned, Aidan was missing. Bernard and some others went out to try and bring him back but he was never found. Aidan's name is among 55000 other names of men missing in the Ypres Salient on the Menin Gate at Ieper. Noel's twin Christopher in the mean time was awarded a MC, the Bishop wrote on 24th July to Noel to tell him the news, but Noel never received it and it is probable that he never knew of Christopher's achievement.

The offensive was scheduled to start on 25th July but due to several factors, it was delayed until 31st July. On 20th July, The Scottish moved away from their training camp and back to the familiar ground at Weiltje. The preliminary bombardment for the offensive had already started and the Germans replied by shelling the roads and communication trenches which caused 9 deaths in the battalion as they moved up to the front line. Mustard Gas and high explosive shelling caused a further 145 casualties in the next few days. On the 24th July, the battalion were relieved and they moved back to make good their losses. On the 29th July, they battalion moved forward to its assembly positions, ominously, the fine weather now broke and the rain, which was to turn the battlefield into the infamous quagmire, started. Noel, moved into the dugout at Weiltje. This was no simple scrape but an excavation large enough to hold several hundred men and deep enough to be safe from artillery. It even had its own generator to supply power for lighting and more importantly, water pumps.

The attack started at 3:50 am on 31st July. The Scottish were by this time already in open ground and made good progress towards their first objective and they pushed on towards the Steenbeek, a stream that crossed their route. As they crossed it, they were held up by uncut wire in front of them and by heavy machine gun fire from Capricorn Trench. One of the two tanks detailed to aid in the assault came up at 7am and despite being put out of action very quickly by three direct hits from a German field gun, it managed to break through the wire and by 7:45am all the battalion's objectives had been taken. Noel had moved his aid post forward with the attack and set it up in a captured German dug out at Setques Farm. The area was subjected to intensive German fire but he stayed put. The dugout was small and it served only as a patching up station before the wounded were sent further back Noel had been injured in the head by a shell splinter as he stood up and waved to indicate the position of his aid post. It is possible he suffered a fractured skull in this incident. After being dressed at the Weiltje dug out, Noel returned, despite advice to stay put, to his aid post. His stretcher bearers had been busy and Noel was very busy until sundown. As night fell Noel picked up his torch and went searching the wrecked landscape for survivors, it was raining again by this time.

Early the following day, Noel found himself a German captive who was a medic and the two of them worked hard to treat wounded men in the impossible conditions of mud, blood and water. Noel went to the door of the dugout to call in the next man when a shell flew past him and down the stairs, killing the man who was waiting to be carried away by the Field Ambulance. Details get very confused at this point, Noel may have received another wound but he carried on. The official history of the Liverpool Scottish has it that Noel was wounded twice more in the head. One stretcher bearer had been sent to the aid post to tell Noel to return. Despite intense pain, "The Doc refused to go and told us to take another man instead". There is no doubt that at about 3am in the morning of Thursday 2nd August, 1917, another shell entered the aid post, Noel was sitting in a chair trying to get some sleep. Everyone in the aid post was either killed or seriously wounded. Noel had received four or five wounds, the worst being a gaping abdominal wound from which he bled profusely. He managed to crawl up the stairs and out of the dug out and crawled along the (flooded, muddy) "road" until he stumbled across a dugout occupied by Lt. Charles Wray of the Loyal North Lancs Regiment who sent for help and later sent an account to his local paper.

Noel was sent to Casualty Clearing Station No. 32 at Brandhoek, which specialised in abdominal wounds. He was operated on immediately and after all the shell splinters had been removed he was patched up. He regained consciousness and he spoke to a Colonel Davidson who reported "He seems very weak but spoke cheerfully". It was not to be a happy ending however as Noel died peacefully at 1pm on Saturday 4th August, 1917. Three years to the day since the outbreak of the war. Bishop and Mrs Chavasse received the telegram informing them of the sad news on the morning of 9th August, the day after they had been informed that Bernard had been wounded in his knee.

This Devoted and Gallant Officer...

The Bishop wrote to Bernard informing him of Noel's death:

You will have heard by this time that our dearest Noel has been called away.... Our hearts are almost broken, for oh! how we loved him. Your dearest mother is pathetic in her grief, so brave and calm notwithstanding. But again and again, we keep praising and thanking God for having given us such a son. We know he is with Christ, and that one day - perhaps soon -we shall see him again. What should we do in such sorrow as this, if we could not rest on the character of God, on his love, and wisdom and righteousness....


Bernard had indeed heard of Noel's death. He had been only a mile south of the Liverpool Scottish on the fateful day and had been trying to find out as much as he could about the circumstances. Bernard managed to get to CCS 32 on 6th August, the day he heard, but sadly Noel had already been buried. Coincidences abound for this event. Sister Ida Leedam who nursed Noel in his final hours had worked with Noel at the Southern Hospital in Liverpool. She wrote to the Bishop, filling in some more gaps in the story.

Noel was buried on the 5th August. No special arrangements were made but despite this, the whole battalion paraded and every Medical Officer at the hospital attended the funeral. The news was released in the press on Friday 10th August. Many messages and letters were sent to the Bishop, including one from King George V. Obituaries appeared in all the local press, the British Medical Journal and the national press. The Daily Mail had a picture of Noel. Christopher, being Noel's twin was deeply affected. He knew Noel had gone, even though he was 80 miles away at the time. Gladys, Noel's fiancee was distraught. Back in Liverpool, a memorial service, ostensibly for the local men who had died at Passchendaele was held on 29th August at 3pm at St Nicholas' Church on the Mersey waterfront. The partly built cathedral wasn't big enough to hold everyone. The singing was accompanied by the sounds of a violent storm outside.

The war still went on. Bernard had been told he was to get an MC, this was gazetted on 29th September. Early in September a letter arrived at the Bishop's Palace from Lord Derby that made the Bishop break down in tears. It read:

I signed something last night which gave me the most mixed feelings of deep regret and great pleasure and that was the submission to His Majesty that a Bar should be granted to the Victoria Cross gained by your son. There is no doubt whatsoever that this will be approved and while it cannot in any way diminish your sorrow, still from the point of view of those who are your friends, it is a great pleasure to think that your son in laying down his life laid it down on behalf of his fellow countrymen, and that it is recognized, not only by those who knew him, but by the King and Country as a whole. In all the records of Victoria Crosses given I do not think there is one that will appeal to the British Public more than the record for which this Bar is to be given, and as I said at the beginning of my letter, it was a great pleasure to think that this recognition of his services is thus recorded.


The award was announced in the London Gazette on 14th September, 1917. It read:

Though severely wounded early in the action whilst carrying a wounded soldier to the dressing station, he refused to leave his post, and for two days, not only continued to perform his duties, but in addition, went out repeatedly under heavy fire to search for and attend to the wounded who were lying out. During these searches, although practically without food during this period, worn with fatigue and faint with his wound, he assisted to carry an number of badly wounded men over heavy and difficult ground. By his extraordinary energy and inspiring example was instrumental in rescuing many wounded who would have otherwise undoubtedly succumbed under the bad weather conditions. This devoted and gallant officer subsequently died of his wounds.

Virtually any establishment that had a connection with Noel made haste to commemorate him, as the son of a Lord Bishop, he is entered on the House of Lords memorial. You can see his name in many places in the City of Liverpool if you only have eyes to see. So what happened to some of the other people in this tale? Bishop Chavasse retired in 1923 and took his wife back to Garsington Rectory in Oxford. Mrs Chavasse died in 1927 aged 76, the Bishop in 1928 aged 81. Christopher rose through the Church of England to, in 1942, become the Bishop of Rochester in Kent, he died in 1962. Christopher's eldest son, called Noel after his uncle served with Field Marshal Montgomery in World War 2 and also won a Military Cross. Bernard became a renowned ophthalmic surgeon in Liverpool after the war, he died in a car accident in 1941. May Chavasse lived until February 1989 when she was 103, so she too received a telegram from the Queen, this one for her 100th Birthday. Gladys met and married the Reverend James Colquhoun in 1919, Christopher was one of the officiating clergy. She lived until 1962 by which time she was profoundly deaf. She died when she was hit, crossing a road in France, by a car she never heard.

Noel is buried in Brandhoek's New Military Cemetery. His grave (Plot 3, Grave B15) has had several memorials over the years, the current headstone was erected on 28th April 1981. It is the only headstone in the world to have two Victoria Crosses engraved on it. The inscription "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends" was selected by his father. This cemetary is looked after by the Commonwealth War Graves Commission who do such a wonderful job in many countries of the world. Noel's medals were given on permanent loan to the Imperial War Museum in February 1990 in the presence of HM the Queen Mother, and they can be seen there in the Victoria and George Cross gallery.

Even today Noel Chavasse is remembered and honoured here in Liverpool. The Merseyside Branch of the Western Front Association in collaboration with the King's (Liverpool) Regiment published a limited edition first day cover on the 80th Anniversary of Noel's first V.C. Liverpool College has memorials to both Noel and Aidan in the school. There is a bronze bust of Noel in the Anglican Cathedral in Liverpool, on the opposite side of the Catheral, a memorial to his father is placed in a wall. Noel's entry in the City's Book of Rememberance covers more than half a page and includes his VC. citations. Thirteen thousand Liverpool men gave their lives in the Great War and each one is named in Liverpool Town Hall's Hall of Rememberance. I for one hope to keep some of their memories alive and fresh. In July, 2000, a party of people from all over the country went to Bellewarde Ridge near Ieper to unveil a new memorial to commemorate the men of the Liverpool Scottish who fell there in 1917. This article was published in the Liverpool Echo on 31st July, 2000, the 83rd Anniversary of the opening of the 3rd Battle of Ypres. In 2001, English Heritage placed one a Blue Plaque commemorating Noel Chavasse on the front wall of the old Bishop's Palace. On 11th April, 2003 in a poll conducted by BBC Radio Merseyside to find the 100 Greatest Merseysiders, Noel Chavasse was voted into third place ahead of such august people as William Gladstone and Sir John Moores. I know this website had a small part to play in this and I want to thank all of you who voted for him. The BBC schools website has used Noel Chavasse as and example here.

The past few years have seen a marked increase in visits to the Western Front battlefields, The Western Front Association has information for would be pilgrims. There are also travel companies that will do tours. Only Salient Tours has, as far as I know,.currently a web site. I have not used them but I am sure they do their job well.

Finally the connection between all three men who won a Bar to the VC. Lt.- Col. Arthur Martin-Leake, VC and Bar, RAMC was with 46th Field Ambulance, based at Brandhoek Crossroads who brought Noel to Casualty Clearing Station No. 32. Captain Charles Hazlitt Upham VC and Bar was (distantly) related by marriage to Noel Chavasse.

Acknowledgements

First and foremost, I would like to thank Ann Clayton who's book "Chavasse - Double VC" (which can be ordered from one of the amazon.com sites) filled in a large part of this narrative. I have left out a huge amount of material and I suggest you beg, borrow or steal a copy to find out just what I have omitted. Other sources include, Liverpool City Libraries and the Liverpool Daily Post and Echo plus other numerous smaller sources, I am grateful to each and every one of them.

If anyone has any questions, comments or corrections, to offer, I would be grateful if you would email me at the address below. Thanks also to those of you who have offered corrections and suggestions you help make this page what it is.

Ian Jones
icj@chavasse.u-net.com
(Please cut and paste this address to email me)
Last revised : 27th July, 2003


<Return to our home page>

No, someone posted a link to a biography of him, which I will find and post, so at least you will know the little I know of him.
Don't bother with the link.
The only reason I asked, is that in all of your Chavasse posts, you appeared to have no knowledge of the man, apart from that you thought he was posh. Without searching for the link, off the top of your head, is there anything you know about the man?

has anyone seen my pic on DEmolition Row of Paradise project
Thanks
Liam Kinsella

Awayo posted a link to this, which I read before I posted.


And all you could write about the man was that he was posh?

has anyone seen my pic on DEmolition Row of Paradise project
Thanks
Liam Kinsella
Not yet, but I will do :cheers:

Don't bother with the link.
The only reason I asked, is that in all of your Chavasse posts, you appeared to have no knowledge of the man, apart from that you thought he was posh. Without searching for the link, off the top of your head, is there anything you know about the man?

I think we have probably crossed in the post. I read the information posted above before I said anything on this topic. It is blood-chilling, and you can't do anything other than stand back in amazement at such self-sacrifice and dedication to others. I've not sought to show any disrespect, I thought I made that clear in my first post on this - my point is that astonishing self-sacrifice was apparantly not that rare during the First World War, and yet those who got the highest awards tended not to be those from slums, they tended to be the middle or upper classes. It was accepted then as a part of the system, the way today we regard it was quite normal that a Chief Executive will get a knighthood or peerage, and an office cleaner or junior manager will get a CBE.

I don't think history is complete, I think we only know a tiny fraction of it. Millions of remarkable lives go unrecorded and unremembered. In this country, because of the way we have recognised achievmement, we have tended to remember the middle and upper classes and their personal achivements. It doesn't mean some of them - like this man - don't have achievements that are remarkable - but I don't believe he should have a modern park named after him when we don't remember all those many Liverpool men who also endured hell and did brave things, and who we know nothing of. I don't think this man is a representative of them, I prefer the 'unknown soldier' concept for that.

I think we have probably crossed in the post. I read the information posted above before I said anything on this topic. It is blood-chilling, and you can't do anything other than stand back in amazement at such self-sacrifice and dedication to others. I've not sought to show any disrespect, I thought I made that clear in my first post on this - my point is that astonishing self-sacrifice was apparantly not that rare during the First World War, and yet those who got the highest awards tended not to be those from slums, they tended to be the middle or upper classes. It was accepted then as a part of the system, the way today we regard it was quite normal that a Chief Executive will get a knighthood or peerage, and an office cleaner or junior manager will get a CBE.

I don't think history is complete, I think we only know a tiny fraction of it. Millions of remarkable lives go unrecorded and unremembered. In this country, because of the way we have recognised achievmement, we have tended to remember the middle and upper classes and their personal achivements. It doesn't mean some of them - like this man - don't have achievements that are remarkable - but I don't believe he should have a modern park named after him when we don't remember all those many Liverpool men who also endured hell and did brave things, and who we know nothing of. I don't think this man is a representative of them, I prefer the 'unknown soldier' concept for that.

You still appear to have no knowledge of this man's achievements, despite the copy and paste post.

You still appear to have no knowledge of this man's achievements, despite the copy and paste post.

It's becoming like a comprehension test. He risked his life, repeatedly, and went beyond the call of duty to help others. He did this while injured and in pain. He could have bailed out, with honour, but he stayed and went out to save and treat others. In summary, that is what I have taken from the biography - that he was someone who went beyond the call of duty, who did so while in great pain and in terrifying circumstances, out of a sense of duty and devotion to his fellow man. He could have got out as a hero, alive, and because he was a hero, he stayed and died.

I don't think I want to discuss this with you further Dave. You have a view. I have a view. If you don't think mine is based upon anything, or is valid, well fine, I don't care. You have no monopoly of showing respect for the dead.

It's becoming like a comprehension test. He risked his life, repeatedly, and went beyond the call of duty to help others. He did this while injured and in pain. He could have bailed out, with honour, but he stayed and went out to save and treat others. In summary, that is what I have taken from the biography - that he was someone who went beyond the call of duty, who did so while in great pain and in terrifying circumstances, out of a sense of duty and devotion to his fellow man. He could have got out as a hero, alive, and because he was a hero, he stayed and died.

I don't think I want to discuss this with you further Dave. You have a view. I have a view. If you don't think mine is based upon anything, or is valid, well fine, I don't care. You have no monopoly of showing respect for the dead.

Too many posts too late with the Chavasse summary Poli. You should have done your research on the man's achievements before your first post on the subject, not five minutes before this post.

it was bladdersmoke who suggested changing the name.

it was bladdersmoke who suggested changing the name.

Grass :)

Too many posts too late with the Chavasse summary Poli. You should have done your research on the man's achievements before your first post on the subject, not five minutes before this post.

Please look at post 102.

In that post you will see that I quote another post - a link fom Awayo. That post from Awayo is what I, as others, based my information on. There is nothing from me on this topic before I had read the link Awayo posted, 102 was my first post on the topic, and its obvious by the fact I quoted from it, and the contents, that I had read the summary it is a link to.

Please look at post 102.

In that post you will see that I quote another post - a link fom Awayo. That post from Awayo is what I, as others, based my information on. There is nothing from me on this topic before I had read the link Awayo posted, 102 was my first post on the topic, and its obvious by the fact I quoted from it, and the contents, that I had read the summary it is a link to.

"Chavasse is a posh Norman sounding name from a posh family from Oxford"
Yes I did read 102.

"Chavasse is a posh Norman sounding name from a posh family from Oxford"
Yes I did read 102.

And you quote selectively from it, in a way that misleads. I should have left you to this, I can see you will not be reasoned with. And, given that it's a topic I actually do take seriously - not saying you don't, incidenally - I'm not carrying this on. Have any last and judgemental words you want on the topic - I think you are wrong, and have become pompous and offensive on the topic.

And you quote selectively from it, in a way that misleads. I should have left you to this, I can see you will not be reasoned with. And, given that it's a topic I actually do take seriously - not saying you don't, incidenally - I'm not carrying this on. Have any last and judgemental words you want on the topic - I think you are wrong, and have become pompous and offensive on the topic.

"Fuck off Poli" - Now that's offensive. Not that I mean it in the slightest.
Pompous? I think the words "pot and kettle" come to mind when I read that.
I hope you learned a lesson from this little exchange, Poli. Read up on the subject matter before, not after you post. It does help.

By the way, asking me whether I have any more judgemental words on the topic, then writing that I'm wrong, pompous and offensive. Was that intentionally ironic? :lol:

some model and site pics from this afternoon guys!

http://onfinite.com/libraries/496624/4ef.jpg

http://onfinite.com/libraries/496623/f51.jpg

http://onfinite.com/libraries/496622/292.jpg

http://onfinite.com/libraries/496621/5d9.jpg

http://onfinite.com/libraries/496620/e79.jpg

Cheers Scouseyuppie01 :cheers:

That 1st pic makes it clear now where the access is to the site, and the size of that building. Also shows the Tram lines clearly, lets keep our fingers crossed on that one. :)

Just to balance the Chavesse comments the momument at Our Lady and St Nicholas to the memory of the `ordinary` people of Liverpool who died in the May Blitz 1941 I personally think it very touching, a mother reaching out up a spiral stairway seeking to protect her son playing a war game with his toy plane who is obviously unaware of the impending/immenent danger from the sky above.

It is wonderfully back lit by the Atlantic Tower Hotel at night.

Both simple and dramatic in its form and location.

Just to balance the Chavesse comments the momument at Our Lady and St Nicholas to the memory of the `ordinary` people of Liverpool who died in the May Blitz 1941 I personally think it very touching, a mother reaching out up a spiral stairway seeking to protect her son playing a war game with his toy plane who is obviously unaware of the impending/immenent danger from the sky above.

It is wonderfully back lit by the Atlantic Tower Hotel at night.

Both simple and dramatic in its form and location.

Absolutely, Pietari, it's a very touching tribute. I love the the symentry of the staircase and I've photographed it from all angles, yet still there's more. Must try it at dusk. Good to have a memorial to the people of Liverpool and Bootle who died in the May 1941 blitz. :cheers:

There's a small monument/obelisk dedicated to all the Privates in the British Army just outside the Anglican Cathedral to the left, next to the cemetery railings. I think it was erected by public subscription in 1856. I only discovered it a few months ago when I was taking a few pics in the cemetery. I'll try and dig it out when I get home.

There's a small monument/obelisk dedicated to all the Privates in the British Army just outside the Anglican Cathedral to the left, next to the cemetery railings. I think it was erected by public subscription in 1856. I only discovered it a few months ago when I was taking a few pics in the cemetery. I'll try and dig it out when I get home.

http://www.**************************/privates.jpg

Good picture posted by young Dave.

:)

Radio Merseyside

http://img197.echo.cx/img197/5425/radiom78oe.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

http://img197.echo.cx/img197/7729/radiom86rg.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)


Herbert's crane
http://img197.echo.cx/img197/3696/herberts48wb.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)


The red crane on the Herbert site is in a corner to the left of this picture, the green thing in the foreground looks like a crane base, don't quite know what's going on here!!

http://img197.echo.cx/img197/9405/herberts51ij.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

its a fairly big crane, prb visible from the river :cheers:

The red crane on the Herbert site is in a corner to the left of this picture, the green thing in the foreground looks like a crane base, don't quite know what's going on here!!

http://img197.echo.cx/img197/9405/herberts51ij.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

The crane bases seem to appear in some weird places all of a sudden just like those shell pods in the film 'Invasion of the Body Snatchers'.

:) Has anyone tried Richie's Butty Bar in Paradise Street? Bit of a blast from the past, but the bacon butties take some beating (as supplied to Radio Merseyside, I'm told). Grosvenor are going (in Richie's words) "yuppify" the building with a resturaunt and apartments above, and soon. So catch the past whilst ye may! (Oh, I'm not Richie!) :cheers:

The crane bases seem to appear in some weird places all of a sudden just like those shell pods in the film 'Invasion of the Body Snatchers'.
This is mysterious - the green crane base was seemingly concreted in in a corner to the left of this shot, yet it's either been moved or abamdoned in favour of the red Wolff A160 now in position. Or maybe it will need two cranes - must go and take a look :cheers:

This is mysterious - the green crane base was seemingly concreted in in a corner to the left of this shot, yet it's either been moved or abamdoned in favour of the red Wolff A160 now in position. Or maybe it will need two cranes - must go and take a look :cheers:

It seems there was a change of mind on the crane type - the green base was shipped off the site as the red Wolffe crane was erected. :cheers:

any idea what shops are moving in here?

Liverpool really could do with some up market department stores, even a House of Fraser wouldn't go a miss - must be by far the largest city in the country without one.

Isn't Lewis's part of House of Fraser? I always thought so, but I may well be utterly wrong.

Utterly wrong - House of Fraser is much further up market than Lewis's, they are a step down from Selfridges or Harvey Nicholls.

HoF used to have a store in Liverpool, but closed some time ago due to the amount of stock that left the store having not been paid for (I used to work at HoF head office).

OK, cheers.

Utterly wrong - House of Fraser is much further up market than Lewis's, they are a step down from Selfridges or Harvey Nicholls.

HoF used to have a store in Liverpool, but closed some time ago due to the amount of stock that left the store having not been paid for (I used to work at HoF head office).

Oh course Trammy, House of Fraser would never consider maintaining a store in Liverpool whilst they are condrescending to keep stores in such retail hotspots as Darlington, Doncaster and Carlisle.

Oh, and Manchester, the large English city with the highest crime rates nationally (56 offenses/1,000 pop, http://www.crimestatistics.org.uk/tool/Default.asp?region=3&force=2&l1=0&l2=0&l3=0&sub=0&v=24, cf. L'pool 42.6 offenses/1,000, http://www.crimestatistics.org.uk/tool/Default.asp?region=3&force=39&cdrp=360&l1=0&l2=0&l3=0&sub=0&v=24.)

What was that you were saying about thieving in Liverpool?

I am a little incredulous about your HoF story though, Trammy. What store was it (Owen Owen? Can't imagine so, that was the same company that owns Lewis's), Blacklers (upmarket?). Can anyone think of any other former Liverpool department stores?

Or is Trammy exhibiting the amusing tendency of the more stupid Mancunians of drivelling inaccurate rubbish about crime in Liverpool, the second safest large city in England and Wales, whilst living in a city with one of the worst crime problems of any in Europe?

Isn't Lewis's part of House of Fraser? I always thought so, but I may well be utterly wrong.

It isn't, but I've often voiced the idea that Lewis's could do with being taken over by exactly this company. After selling all its other stores, closing its upper floors and allowing the overall feel and look of the store to deteriorate over a long period of time, I think a buy out by a quality store chain would probably be the best outcome for getting it back to its former glory.

Yes, Lewis's has really gone to the dogs compared to what it once was.

Awayo - I do not deny that places such as Manchester have higher crime rates than Liverpool.

I am simply repeating the reason I was given for the Liverpool should have a resonably upmarket department store for a city of it's size.

I don't remember the name of the store - it closed prior to my joining HoF - so most likely during the 80's or early 90's.

It is interesting that HoF have over 50 stores nationwide and not one in Liverpool - what made me think about the lack of decent retail at the moment was this article...

http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0100regionalnews/tm_objectid=15661734%26method=full%26siteid=50061%26headline=big%2dname%2dstores%2dsign%2dup%2dfor%2dmet%2dquarter-name_page.html

the line...

Hobbs, which will have a 3,500 sq ft store offering women's clothes, shoes and accessories, is one of the most successful high street names with more than 60 outlets throughout the UK and Ireland.

If companies are going to Liverpool after having already having 60 stores elsewhere then Liverpool needs to do something to get some of these companies wanting to open stores in Liverpool.

Why is it that when stores open in northern cities, after opening a store in Manc, they tend to go to Leeds before Liverpool?

After reading many of the posts in the 2020 thread, and the article about Virgin in the main Liverpool thread, I'd like to know how you people tie up what is being said about Liverpool doing so well in the future, compared to what is being said by companies such as Virgin, and the retailers that prefer to go to a city like Leeds to Liverpool.

How is this going to turn around?

The initial question was asking whether Liverpool will finally be getting a decent department store in this development.

Awayo - I do not deny that places such as Manchester have higher crime rates than Liverpool.

I am simply repeating the reason I was given for the Liverpool should have a resonably upmarket department store for a city of it's size.

I don't remember the name of the store - it closed prior to my joining HoF - so most likely during the 80's or early 90's.

It is interesting that HoF have over 50 stores nationwide and not one in Liverpool - what made me think about the lack of decent retail at the moment was this article...

http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0100regionalnews/tm_objectid=15661734%26method=full%26siteid=50061%26headline=big%2dname%2dstores%2dsign%2dup%2dfor%2dmet%2dquarter-name_page.html

the line...

Hobbs, which will have a 3,500 sq ft store offering women's clothes, shoes and accessories, is one of the most successful high street names with more than 60 outlets throughout the UK and Ireland.

If companies are going to Liverpool after having already having 60 stores elsewhere then Liverpool needs to do something to get some of these companies wanting to open stores in Liverpool.
Why is it that when stores open in northern cities, after opening a store in Manc, they tend to go to Leeds before Liverpool?

After reading many of the posts in the 2020 thread, and the article about Virgin in the main Liverpool thread, I'd like to know how you people tie up what is being said about Liverpool doing so well in the future, compared to what is being said by companies such as Virgin, and the retailers that prefer to go to a city like Leeds to Liverpool.

How is this going to turn around?

The initial question was asking whether Liverpool will finally be getting a decent department store in this development.

Trammy you're defeating your own arguament here.
By Hobbs opening in the Met quarter does'nt that show that liverpool is doing something.
The fact that these stores are now looking at Liverpool whereas before they wouldn't underlines this. :cheers:

Yep, but 60th in the country suggests that there are about 59 higher up the list.

I was thinking more along the lines of a Selfridges, a John Lewis's (not Lewis's) or Harvey Nicholls - i.e. be one of the first 3 or 4 to get a store, not 60th - have a look at some of the places that already have Hobbs stores, this is hardly exactly Liverpool moving into the big league for retail.

Some other big cities suburbs have Hobbs stores, and a Liverpool paper is making a deal about getting it's first!!!

There is a seriously long way to go here.

Yes Trammy but before this development and others coming along we wouldn't even be 60th.

Some of those stores you mention may well move into PDSA.

As I say Liverpool is doing something to change this. :cheers:

any idea what shops are moving in here?

Liverpool really could do with some up market department stores, even a House of Fraser wouldn't go a miss - must be by far the largest city in the country without one.

The letting campaign is not yet fully underway.

Confirmed so far are Debenams and John Lewis Partnership (relocation) only for the two largest units. Rumoured have been Zara, Macy's, Nike Town, Borders, FCUK (relocation), Sephora, Argos (relocation). It's early days yet for the letting process here.

However, the huge new John Lewis meets your description of an upmarket and large department store. Liverpool already has a John Lewis Partnership department store, but the new one will be the largest John Lewis in the UK.

You're now admitting that your comment about theft in an unidentified Liverpool department store was based on no more than hearsay, and tittle-tattle that conveniently conforms to the ignorant prejudices that some have about Liverpool and crime. If any upmarket retailers left Liverpool in the 80s (and some did I know, e.g., Jaeger) it was more likely to be to do with the city's economic difficulties at that time.

Trammy, the Liverpool Echo article you cite, gives an impressive array of upmarket retailers for the Met Quarter development, whose letting campaign is much more mature. The range of shops is similar to that in the Triangle in Manchester and is evidence that Liverpool is now getting the type of retailer that a few years ago it was not. I would now expect that the PSDA will have some pleasant suprises.

Liverpool's retail offer does trail Leeds' and Manchester's currently, a legacy of Liverpool's reletively weak economy until recently. Liverpool is no smaller than Leeds but is currently less prosperous. This is changing now and changing quickly, which is why two very large (one massive) developments are ongoing in Liverpool at present and why these developments seem likely to fill with exactly the sorts of store that Manchester and Leeds have obtained (and gained only in the last few years in a lot of cases).

So Liverpool has been behind in retail, but is catching up.

Yep, but 60th in the country suggests that there are about 59 higher up the list.

I was thinking more along the lines of a Selfridges, a John Lewis's (not Lewis's) or Harvey Nicholls - i.e. be one of the first 3 or 4 to get a store, not 60th - have a look at some of the places that already have Hobbs stores, this is hardly exactly Liverpool moving into the big league for retail.

Some other big cities suburbs have Hobbs stores, and a Liverpool paper is making a deal about getting it's first!!!

There is a seriously long way to go here.

I wouldn't disagree with that, but PSDA and Met are just the start.
Baltic Triangle will have ground floor retail. It looks like the police HQ is going to go. We have development planned behind Lewiss.
We have quiggens maybe going to the GHL building - which will create a unique retailing experience few other cities have, right in its heart.
Shops at Kings Dock. The heritage market will continue and grow even when Stanley Dock is developed.

Liverpool will soon have any and every sort of shopping experience you care to imagine, and lots of it.

Business men are human beings as well at the end of the day. And are as open to prejudice as anyone else . I would suggest at least part of this retail lag has been due to stereotypes of the city and very little else.

Tranny,

It is perfectly obvious that the retail sector in Lpool is under-going a massive transformation. In addition to the biggies, such as PSDA and Met Quarter- the general infrastructure of the city is improving and this will bring further ground-floor retail opportunities. And there is Albert Dock which is set to improve its lettings. Also, I have absolutely no doubt that the famous Quiggins will re-open in a bigger and better location.

Only time will show which stores enter the market in Lpool, and how much of a success they will be- I don't see the point in YOU clogging up this thread with stupid posts when you, nor anybody else around here, has detailed information on the future.

Needless to say, PSDA and Met Quarter (in addition to the Church St area) will be a damn sight more impressive and pleasant than that plastic Trafford Centre shite. Please stop wasting everybody's time by posting rubbish that you can't prove and which only serves to slow down the forum.

Exchange Square, King Street, the Shambles, and other places that Manchester city centre has had its recent additions of good stores are very nice as well Blabber.

With PSDA, Liverpool is getting development (and new shops) that matches them.

I was thinking more along the lines of a Selfridges, a John Lewis's.
GEORGE HENRY LEE is a member of the John Lewiss Partnership and has been a fixture in Liverpool for many decades. The Liverpool outlet, although fragmented over a number of stores, is one of the most profitable in the John Lewiss Partnership group.

Lee's in Liverpool was rebranded John Lewis a couple of years ago Sloyne. The George Henry Lee brand has passed into history.

Lee's in Liverpool was rebranded John Lewis a couple of years ago Sloyne. The George Henry Lee brand has passed into history.
Thanks for the info.

Stop talking and start acting to rebuild city Jun 29 2005
EXCLUSIVE by Andy Kelly, Daily Post

CITY centre developer Grosvenor last night accused Liverpool City Council of delaying a critical part of its £920m transformation of the Paradise Street area.

The Duke of Westminster's company appears to be losing patience with the council as it continues to await approval for a four-star hotel operator for the scheme.

A flagship hotel chain was due to be announced by Grosvenor's project director Rod Holmes at a public meeting three weeks ago.

That never materialised and last night Mr Holmes said the paperwork over the hotel operator was "stuck with the council and its solicitors".

He made it clear that Grosvenor is beginning to lose patience with senior council officers and their advisors as they continue to hold up aspects of the scheme.

He urged the council to stop talking - and start taking action instead.

He said: "After years of the 'Big Talk' everybody has to get up to speed with the 'Big Dig'.

"We are now pushing more than paper."

The project director also suggested a previous hotel developer had been lost because of problems in securing agreement with the authority.

His words represent the first signs of tension in the relationship between the council and its development partner in what is probably the single most important regeneration project on Merseyside since the Albert Dock.

So far, it has been mercifully free from the problems which have beset other projects such as the Fourth Grace, Merseytram and the first Kings Dock scheme.

Mr Holmes said: "For the second time in a year, we have had an offer from a development partner and a leading international hotel operator.

"Another opportunity could be lost if the prevarication continues any longer.

"The delay is holding up a critical part of the project around the law courts."

Grosvenor's Paradise Street development is intended to transform Liverpool's shopping facilities over a 43-acre site.

The company is already anxiously awaiting news on Merseytram, due to run through the heart of its development, but which is now battling for survival after the Government limited its Line One support to £170m.

Grosvenor is due to open in 2008 and is battling a tight construction timetable so any delays take on added significance.

Council chief executive Sir David Henshaw has made it clear "the table will be set for 2008" with all major construction projects - now branded under the Big Dig banner - being temporarily halted for Capital of Culture year.

Last night, a council spokesman insisted there had been no delay and the authority had a duty to scrutinise the project fully.

He said: "The Paradise Project has gone from conception to construction within four years which must be a record for this scale of development.

"It has been achieved because of the excellent relationship between the city council and Grosvenor, a relationship which continues as the development progresses.

"With regard to the hotel operator, the city council has a duty to ensure that the deal meets the aspirations of the city to provide the highest quality development fitting for a premier city centre.

"We do not believe there has been undue delay in doing this and we will be in a position to sign off this deal in the near future when we are assured that it is the best one possible for Liverpool.

"Developments of this magnitude and scale will always be looked at from different perspectives. But it is a sign of the strength of the relationship between the council and Grosvenor that we are able to work together so that we are on course to deliver a world-quality project."

The Paradise Project is the biggest of its kind in Europe.

Although Liverpool is one of the UK's top eight core cities, it is currently ranked only 13th in the retail destinations by the survey company, Experian.

A study of prime retail areas by surveyors Gerald Eve, concentrating on the UK's top 30 high street destinations, says Liverpool has the sixth largest shopper catchment area, but ranks only 17th in the market share league table.

John Lewis and Debenhams are already signed up for department stores in the Grosvenor development which will also include a hotel, cinema, apartments and 1.5m sq ft of retail and leisure space.

Stop talking and start acting to rebuild city Jun 29 2005
EXCLUSIVE by Andy Kelly, Daily Post

CITY centre developer Grosvenor last night accused Liverpool City Council of delaying a critical part of its £920m transformation of the Paradise Street area.

The Duke of Westminster's company appears to be losing patience with the council as it continues to await approval for a four-star hotel operator for the scheme.

A flagship hotel chain was due to be announced by Grosvenor's project director Rod Holmes at a public meeting three weeks ago.

That never materialised and last night Mr Holmes said the paperwork over the hotel operator was "stuck with the council and its solicitors".

He made it clear that Grosvenor is beginning to lose patience with senior council officers and their advisors as they continue to hold up aspects of the scheme.

He urged the council to stop talking - and start taking action instead.



Last night, a council spokesman insisted there had been no delay and the authority had a duty to scrutinise the project fully.

.

Who do you believe, Mr Holmes or the council spokesman? :bash:

Last night, a council spokesman insisted there had been an unacceptable delay and the authority had a duty to sctatch their own arses and delay the project fully

Read it again soft-shite. ;)

How annoying. Why is it that Liverpool Council don't seeem to learn that in the competitive world of regeneration you have to work quickly if you are to secure the prizes? It's not about taking short-cuts, or not scrutinising proposals thoroughly, it's about being business-like and prompt. It would be inexcuseable if some jobsworth pen pushers working 9-5 with flexitime in the planning department cause any real new investment to go elsewhere. Sounds like that Department needs to be shaken up.

Why is it that Liverpool Council don't seeem to learn that in the competitive world of regeneration you have to work quickly if you are to secure the prizes? Because they are under no pressure to perform, promptly. The civil service know that their political masters are otherwise engaged in planning their own re-election campaigns and in ideological jousts with oponents to care to much about the city and it's employees. And, of course, the apathy of the electorate exherts little pressure.

Municipal civil service is a fetid, festering breeding ground of innaction and personal empire building. The disinfectant is an aware, engaged, active electorate with a crusading local press as an ally.

Because they are under no pressure to perform, promptly. The civil service know that their political masters are otherwise engaged in planning their own re-election campaigns and in ideological jousts with oponents to care to much about the city and it's employees. And, of course, the apathy of the electorate exherts little pressure.

Municipal civil service is a fetid, festering breeding ground of innaction and personal empire building. The disinfectant is an aware, engaged, active electorate with a crusading local press as an ally.

Well said, sloyne. I used to work in local government and you're asbsolutely right. But with neither an active electorate or a crusading local press, the future looks bleak! :bash:

Parked up on the soon to be non-existent NCP MSCP and took a few shots of the development area.

Chavasse Park
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y135/yapachoo/Princes%20Dock/paradisestreet2ndjuly05.jpg

Edge of Chavasse Park with som nicer buildings setting the skyline behind
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y135/yapachoo/Princes%20Dock/paradisestreet2ndjuly052.jpg

Looking up South John St. from top of doomed MSCP
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y135/yapachoo/Princes%20Dock/paradisestreet2ndjuly053.jpg

That would be South John Street.

Ta v much! I shall edit it appropriately :D

PSDA helping to plug a gap from Seacombe. Is that Circle 109 in the background too, to the right of the yellow & blue cranes?

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/3909/paradise14xe.jpg

MO, amazing photo, thats one hell of zoom on your camera, thanks

It certainly is! isnt that Gambier Terrace in the background! its miles away!

MO, amazing photo, thats one hell of zoom on your camera, thanksYou just behave yourself up there in your lovely penthouse. OK? Delightful top floor topiary they have up there atop Beetham, you know...:lol:

You just behave yourself up there in your lovely penthouse. OK? Delightful top floor topiary they have up there atop Beetham, you know...:lol:

CURTAINS FOR MY PORT A CABIN :)

Herberts, some form taking shape.
http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/5089/herberts61rj.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)


Radio Merseyside
http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/6218/radiom94om.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)


Site 19, Hanover St/Gradwell St. 5 mikes, ground floor medium size shops, above MSCP for 450 cars, piling underway.

http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/6511/site1910pr.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

http://img56.imageshack.us/img56/3843/site1929zd.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)


Canning MSCP, topped out recently, both tower cranes now removed.

http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/795/canningmscp18cv.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

John Lewis site, piling underway here.
http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/3956/johnlewis18vv.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/5204/johnlewis26vk.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/2859/johnlewis33gm.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

Debenhams, site 15 corner of South John St/Lord St.

http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/9238/debenhams15du.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

http://img287.imageshack.us/img287/2421/debenhams29cb.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

Great photos Doug.

It looks like it's really moved on another stage in the last week or so.

Nice photos Doug, thanks for update, must have a trip into town real soon

Its a thing of beauty. :)

Thanks for that Doug.

Great update pictures Doug. :cheers:

Cant wait to go shopping there, the John Lewis site is big.

Wonder when that resi development on Duke Street is going to start, cleared site as shown in pic4.

There's a new webcam

http://www.liverpoolpsda.co.uk/liverpool/ImageDisplay.aspx?camera=camera2&size=fullsize

Just looking at the site plans now.

Its seems Argos have took plot 14 where the old "What Everyone Wants" store was.

Take a look at the DL site. Apparently plans for a 17 storey residential building by Cesar Pelli have been unvieled! According to roskovsky on the forums it's on the North West corner of Chavasse park, next to the Halifax building, they are currently seeking a developing partner.

Sure they don't mean this one, which has been proposed for some time but seems to have added a few mikes? This faces onto the Strand, directly in front of Chavasse Park:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v421/Martin_S/DevelopmentSummary/psda-strand.jpg

This is what it says on the website:

On Target

Grosvenor presented their regular progress report at FACT today -and very impressive too.

Headlines included:
-The Liverpool Paradise Foundation, a new charitable trust set up to support worthy downtown causes,
- Wilkinson Eyre's stunning bus depot to open this November,
- Cesar Pelli residential building NE of Park at 17 stories unveiled
- First glimpse of multiplex cinema
- Call for a prompt 'yes' to Merseytram


I think it's this one from the masterplan page

http://www.liverpoolpsda.co.uk/NR/rdonlyres/9A6F4FBD-7004-4AC6-B1A4-C1FE7B2A36E4/333/Model_013.gif

If that is correct and it is the North east corner, it seems that it will be on the site of the Paradise Street MSCP. From what you wrote in your earlier post,that Grosvenor are seeking a developing partner, it may be that this is a completely new development outside of the PSDA. I can't think where it would be located though.

On the main page it says North East corner of the park but in his post on the Tall Buildings thread roskovsky said:

Just a quick note to all to reveal that Cesar Pelli look like planning a 17 story residential on the NW corner of the Park in the PSDA masterplan - that is, right next to the Halifax 'building' on the Strand. Looking very good and currently seeking a developer partner.

Yeah, I think they must mean NW corner. That site has been slated for a tallish apartment or hotel building from early on, and Pelli has been masterplanning the park too :)

That pic appears to be the NW corner. The building behind looks a lot like the law courts. :)

^That's just where I think it is, i'm porbably wrong! :)

Yeah, I think they must mean NW corner. That site has been slated for a tallish apartment or hotel building from early on, and Pelli has been masterplanning the park too :)

A Cesar Pelli building in Liverpool, should be good, if it faces the Strand the height should not be a problem. Should it meet with disapproval, I wonder if Lady D has the BALLS to reject it. :)

That pic appears to be the NW corner. The building behind looks a lot like the law courts. :)

Plot 12 facing the Strand with the entrance ramps to the underground car park running under this plot. A 17 mike Pelli building here will look stunning and should tie in well with the Pelli designed Chavasse Park. The city are looking to increase heights ( hard to believe :) ) and density along the Strand and we now await the long overdue plans for Kingston House on the corner of James St.

A 17 mike Pelli building here will look stunning...Like Hell it will! The damned thing will ruin the critical strategic view of the (apparently) peerless St John's Beacon and any potential Lime St cluster from Woodside. How do I complain??? :naughty:

Explain that you're from the Wirral. Simple. LCC often put Wiggle views ahead of the needs of its own ratepayers. :)

Great progress being made by Grosvenor, just don't let LCC anywhere near, check this link out. I'll have to get to town for some photos.

http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0100regionalnews/tm_objectid=15866252%26method=full%26siteid=50061%26headline=work%2dbegins%2don%2dflagship%2dstores%2dfor%2dnew%2dshops%2darea%2d-name_page.html

Like Hell it will! The damned thing will ruin the critical strategic view of the (apparently) peerless St John's Beacon and any potential Lime St cluster from Woodside. How do I complain??? :naughty:

Like hell it will look STUNNING, from the Strand, to hell with your ruined views from Woodside :weirdo: Short memory MO you ruined our view of the Wirral when you blew up the CL cranes :)

I remember that programme when they blew up the cranes on the CL slipway, it was quite a sad passing of an era.

I would love to see a Cesar Pelli project like the one in Milan, projects, masterplan, Citta della moda.

http://www.cesar-pelli.com/flash.cfm

I remember that programme when they blew up the cranes on the CL slipway, it was quite a sad passing of an era.

I would love to see a Cesar Pelli project like the one in Milan, projects, masterplan, Citta della moda.

http://www.cesar-pelli.com/flash.cfm


Cool photo of Miami on his homepage. I'm tempted to go back there later this year.

Looking at the Milan masterplan you can see the same sort of elements as on the Chavasse Park masterplan.

Like hell it will look STUNNING, from the Strand, to hell with your ruined views from Woodside :weirdo: Short memory MO you ruined our view of the Wirral when you blew up the CL cranes :)Good job I know that you know I'm only messing! The new building will no doubt look great but it would work out better skyline-wise with one modest change. If the Halifax building were demolished and the new Pelli block built there instead, that small shift to the left (just imagine you still live over here :)) would mean the blocking out of the undistinguished law courts with something superior and still leave the Lime Street cluster virtually free of obstruction. See, that Halifax thing is the root of all evil!

One thing struck me today whilst looking at a map of the city. If all of these contentious projects currently on the table were allowed to proceed then they would all be visible from Woodside without seriously obscuring either each other or any existing buildings. So you could sit there on a bench and see, in sequence, Alexandra Tower, City Lofts, King Edward, Beetham 1, West Tower, 100 OHS, City Tower, RSA, Unity, St Nicks, Pierhead group, the Pelli block, St Johns, Gateway Tower, Chieftain, Central Station, the Met Cathedral, Greenberg, L1 apartments, KD arena, Anglican Cathedral, KD towers and finally Brunswick Quay. The only questionable one would be the mystery "plot 7" scheme on Princes dock which would seriously compromise the view of RSA.

All in all, a pretty good view and even better with a liner or two as well!.

Good job I know that you know I'm only messing! The new building will no doubt look great but it would work out better skyline-wise with one modest change. If the Halifax building were demolished and the new Pelli block built there instead, that small shift to the left (just imagine you still live over here :)) would mean the blocking out of the undistinguished law courts with something superior and still leave the Lime Street cluster virtually free of obstruction. See, that Halifax thing is the root of all evil!

One thing struck me today whilst looking at a map of the city. If all of these contentious projects currently on the table were allowed to proceed then they would all be visible from Woodside without seriously obscuring either each other or any existing buildings. So you could sit there on a bench and see, in sequence, Alexandra Tower, City Lofts, King Edward, Beetham 1, West Tower, 100 OHS, City Tower, RSA, Unity, St Nicks, Pierhead group, the Pelli block, St Johns, Gateway Tower, Chieftain, Central Station, the Met Cathedral, Greenberg, L1 apartments, KD arena, Anglican Cathedral, KD towers and finally Brunswick Quay. The only questionable one would be the mystery "plot 7" scheme on Princes dock which would seriously compromise the view of RSA.

All in all, a pretty good view and even better with a liner or two as well!.

What !!! I didn`t know you were messing, now you tell me :shocked: :gaah:

Your observations re: city scape when viewed from "over the water" is very interesting, perhaps our esteemed councillors from both sides should be made aware that all the proposed towers would not compromise the sacred views they all seem to panic about (when it suits them) but enhance the waterfront.

Agree with you about the Halifax dolls house, this silly little block will look rediculous when both north and south of the Strand consists of new blocks 10 to 17 mikes high.

The only questionable one would be the mystery "plot 7" scheme on Princes dock which would seriously compromise the view of RSA.

You say that like it's a bad thing ;)

What !!! I didn`t know you were messing, now you tell me :shocked: :gaah:

Your observations re: city scape when viewed from "over the water" is very interesting, perhaps our esteemed councillors from both sides should be made aware that all the proposed towers would not compromise the sacred views they all seem to panic about (when it suits them) but enhance the waterfront.

Agree with you about the Halifax dolls house, this silly little block will look rediculous when both north and south of the Strand consists of new blocks 10 to 17 mikes high.

Possibly the low point of `Waterfront` (sic) redevelopment ..... although dunno though.

Possibly the low point of `Waterfront` (sic) redevelopment ..... although dunno though.

Spot on Pietari, you don`t need "specsavers" do you :hilarious :hilarious

Wonder if anyone would be able to do a mock-up of the waterfront with all these proposed projects placed in?, I've seen a few on this site before. Could send it to the council to show them how amazing the waterfront would look if all the projects they knock back are approved.

When I walked past yesterday I noticed Merseytravel transfers and logos had been applied to the bus station. We are obviously nearing its completion. Hurrah!

Spot on Pietari, you don`t need "specsavers" do you :hilarious :hilarious

"T`ank yer very much - just like that ha ha...."

The John Lewis site

http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/7395/johnlewis44wh.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Don't know what this structure is, maybe a feature for the new Chevasse Park?

http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/4550/paradisest356fj.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Debenham's

http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/3338/debenhams38gd.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/4374/paradisest364iu.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

The John Lewis site

Don't know what this structure is, maybe a feature for the new Chevasse Park?


Great photos Doug.

There's a circular structure on the PSDA website here (http://www.liverpoolpsda.co.uk/Liverpool/Templates/PopupImageWindow.aspx?guid={F025D45E-D0C9-423D-9938-ADB4B7FC83EE}&id=PopUpImage2) (the smaller one on the left hand side of the image). I don't know if this is what's in the photo?

great pictures there doug this project is going to transform liverpool i cant wait.

This'll look awesome when it's finally finished. We've heard about this for so long. Can't wait. :cool:

Thanks for the pics Doug,this is going to have a big impact on Liverpool and is the most eagerly awaited project of them all,I can't wait for this to finish. :)

Nice pics Doug, yesterday we stood and looked at that steelwork and I could only guess that it will provide some "barrowed light" to the lower floors of the underground car park.

Or maybe a public stairwell with lift shaft?

Great pics Doug

It's starting to make a bit more sense to me now that is is taking shape and form. I went into the PSD shop by Mc Donalds some time ago now and the models are just white box shapes which don't give you a clear picture of what the development will look like. Let some school kids loose with some crayons or something.

It looked like the surface of the Death Star when Luke Skywalker & co attack it at the end of episode 4.

I put in plans for a death star years ago and it was knocked back. Apparently it was too tall, too wide and didn't compliment the architecture of it's immediate environment. Also, it's gravitational pull would have messed with the Mersey tide flow. I thought their refusal arguments were ridiculous. It would have provided lots of jobs for local men either fitting toilets or being ruthless killing machine storm troopers. A jobs a job and people in this town need them.

I know what you mean Matrix, the model is a decent effort but it doesn't clear things in my mind. Best just to watch the developments over the months and see it take shape.

I put in plans for a death star years ago and it was knocked back. Apparently it was too tall, too wide and didn't compliment the architecture of it's immediate environment. Also, it's gravitational pull would have messed with the Mersey tide flow. I thought their refusal arguments were ridiculous. It would have provided lots of jobs for local men either fitting toilets or being ruthless killing machine storm troopers. A jobs a job and people in this town need them.

I know what you mean Matrix, the model is a decent effort but it doesn't clear things in my mind. Best just to watch the developments over the months and see it take shape.

Didn't you appeal? - Has John Prescott got involved yet?

Since it was a long long time ago in a squat far far away I had no right of appeal and John Prescott was not the deputy prime minister then. Shame, I think a death star is an excellent tourist trap. I had evil plans to blow up Aldershot.

The problem with the Paradise Street Development is it does'nt include any tall building say in the range of 25 to 35 storey's. I think it is a fantastic development but lacks height. what do you think?
Also i believe that the proposed cruise liner terminal will not be built due in part to Liverpool City Council. Lets hope Mike Storey and co head's roll!
The council will also be responsible for the lose of 500 million pounds in private developments just because the council is anti-tall. They have'nt even implemented there tall building policy yet!! I hope Maro and other developers are sucessful with there applications. On Tuesday we will see whether these developments are approved or not,fingers crossed!

Get ready to pounce on them ! The knives are sharpened, so to speak.

The only one of any note is a 17 storey block next to the much hated Halifax building. It would be hilarious if they were all forced to resign. I would love to see someone similar to ex-NYC mayor Rudolf Guiliani. Someone who cares about the well-being of the city rather than looking good & looking after their own interests. I think if they reject the Maro development they will come in for more criticism

Glad they are opening a Debenhams in Liverpool. Save me going to Manchester when I need to replace my Jose Mourinho coat at Christmas.

The PSD will just add a large dose of freshness to an area of town that's a bit stale. None of the buildings are amazing architecture as such but I am still pleased this is going ahead. It will attract more people to the area. The first year it is open people will react to it with oohs and aahs like people did with the Trafford centre years ago. The novelty will eventually wear off and it will become another large shopping centre we take for granted.

Glad its getting built there Zod, I can remember going to Chavass Court ages ago and it was a dump, also the steroid enhancement shop has gone too. Not particularly bothered about the height of the buildings in this area, it just replaces an area of crap that was of no use to anyone, the What shop building was a fucking disgrace. The Met Quarter will house some decent shops too, so all in all its a very positive thing, funded entirely by Grosvenor. Can't wait to spend my hard earned cash there!

Yeah, the PS bus terminal was one of those 60's monstrosities that eternally stinks of piss, looks like the Portsmouth Tricorn center and gives an aura that you are going to be stabbed in the back by a tramp for change. Bring on Debenhams.

Save me going to Manchester when I need to replace my Jose Mourinho coat at Christmas.

I got one from Moss Bros for under a ton. Bargain. :)

The bloke was adamant he had to measure my inside leg though. I paid for the coat and ran.

Yeah, it can be embarassing getting a stiffy when they measure you. My tailor got a huge surprise.

Did he prick his finger? ;)

Rearrange as appropriate....

Stop playing about with my willy! er... I mean words. Ahem.

It would be nice to see a few more taller buildings around PS. It seems a bit of a wasted opportunity not to incorporate more office space or 'luxury apartments'. The demand might not be there for it yet, but it could be in a few years time.

I don't think towers would look right in this area, but a bit more bulking up and more 7-10 storey buildings would be ideal and add more density.

Some photographs of PSDA taken this morning:

The Canning Place car park - structurally complete with the police headquarters screen under construction:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v421/Martin_S/PSDA/280805CarPark.jpg

Stanley Buildings in Hanover Street. Getting more derelict with every passing day. They will need to start work soon on this or those trees will get a preservation order:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v421/Martin_S/PSDA/280805Stanley.jpg

The joint Friends Meeting House and Radio Merseyside studios well underway:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v421/Martin_S/PSDA/280805Friends.jpg

Herbert's Bling Bling building with the concrete cores and columns just starting to poke above the hoardings:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v421/Martin_S/PSDA/280805Herbert.jpg

A couple of photos taken today:

The Cesar Pelli bus / tram station:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v421/Martin_S/PSDA/290805Bus.jpg

Woody, Doug Roberts and I were trying to find out what this conical tower on Chavasse Park is for. Obvously a temporary structure. Any suggestions?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v421/Martin_S/PSDA/290805Tower.jpg

Martin -

The bus station is by Wilkinson Eyre.

Puzzling to see David McLean signs on the hoardings round the Herbert's building. But there was a previous planning permission for this site, so maybe they got on board that way.

There is a circular structure on this render (http://www.liverpoolpsda.co.uk/ProjectDetails/DetailedProjectPlans/sites16a16c16e16f.htm) about where your cone is, but that doesn't help much with figuring out what it might be.

Does anyone know if there are any plans for Stanley buildings ? Is it in a state that can be repaired or is it doomed to crumble ?

Does anyone know if there are any plans for Stanley buildings ? Is it in a state that can be repaired or is it doomed to crumble ?

General -

Stanley Bldg is Site 4C (http://www.liverpoolpsda.co.uk/ProjectDetails/DetailedProjectPlans/sites4a4band4c.htm) and is to be refurbished by Brock Carmichael (who did the Maritime Museum).

Thanks Lathom. I have read the Paradise website before but obviously I overlooked the Stanley Buildings. Glad to see a mix of old and new. Any longer and this building will fall to bits. I wonder what will go in there ? Call me crazy but the building looks perfect for Quiggins but I take it this would have already been publicised given the stir created over it's closure.