I'm bored so I put this lsit together, numbers of flats in some of the biggest developments that are recently completed, under construction or likely to be built in the coming years.

New Islington - upto 1400
Green Quarter - 1300
Chapel Wharf - 1000
Quay Point - 800
Eastgate - 700
Harbour City - 600
Dandara Blackfriars - 578
Macintosh Village - 502
St Georges Island - 404
Leftbank - 391
Tempus - 365
ATS - 300
Adelphi Street - 295
Skyline Central - 292
The Edge - 275
GN Tower - 257
Abito - 256
NV Towers - 246
Crown Building - 237
Beetham - 216
Citygate - 215
Fusion (M'wood locks) - 212
Erie Basin Twr - 210
Vie - 207
Citylofts - 203
ISIS Wharf - 200
Pall Mall - 169
Lock Building - 154
Chapel Street 11 storey - 146
Ancoats Street Tower - 140
Sarah Tower - 120
Bury New Road - 85
Issa Quay - 83

Quadrangle - ???

Even with loads of the smaller developments missed off this still gives a figure of at least 12558 new apartments coming onto the market within a few years of each other. I'm sure the real figure is much higher than this too. And with the recent reports that the housing market is slowing down, has Manchester oversaturated demand for these flats? Even with the BBC move et al, isn't it time we slowed down?

i dont think so,,,if these developers want to build em ,let them,,,it looks like a lot of investor's are buying quite a few on planning ,then hoping to sell em and make a bit of profit when there built (greedy fukka's),,if the housing market does slow down ,there'll be the one that get stung

The housing market maybe slowing down but alot of apartments in Manchester are owned by people who live in them during the week and then live in there big house during the weekend. Also we have the Uni's which are growing and being redeveloped ao students need housing opitons. Sometime during last year there was a big news report on most of the news programs and channels which said that the UK was 2 million homes short. You dont know if the Govenment has pushing are the city's to produce more flats. It be the best place for them as they dont want to build on much more green land.

in a recent study i did for uni about the construction of luxury flats in the the north (i.e the areas of falling population), we were curious why cities like manchester and leeds and sheff and newcastle were investing in such a large amount of apartments.....also we didnt actaully focus on manc (leeds and newcastle instead)

wat we found was that many of these flats that were sold, about 20% were bought to be lived in perminantly, about 40% were llived in temp or rent out....but a massvie 40% stayed empty... turns out people are buying them even though they dont need to use them and just keeping them in perfect condition and hoping to retire on any profits gained on them when the owners want to retire!

I think things are finally slowing down. As the homes market slows down, I'm hoping that other areas can catch up and allow for such booms in housing in the future.

Well hopefully after the massive success of things like the RBoS and relocation of BBC depts and the Unity project we have an edge over other cities that are building loads of apartments.. I'd like to think the city could keep itself stable with the influx of towers with more jobs and opportunities to make the city even more kick ass, lol..

I used to work as a white van man, delivering tinternet shopping for Sainsbury's to you. Ive been in alot of city centre developments, both residential and office.

you would be suprised how many middle aged and even pensioners live in em. its not just queers and lesbos. hehehe.
There was this devious invester who had obviously bought this luxury appartment in castlefield for investment and put his 84 year old mother in it. it was on one of the upper floors too. and she could hardly walk with a stick. her lesbian neighours (who I also delivered to) were concerned about this old lady. cos they av to keep an eye on her, even had to call an ambulance once, when she fell and split her head.

I was walkin around castlefield and deansgate locks on sunday and I was shock to see that 2 of the bars have closed down :(
the pump house and that army combat one. its a shame. they always seemed to be doin ok when I saw em last summer. maybe its just too hard to survive the winter months. or possibly all the new residents around there wanted some quiet.

PS. unlucky Accura with preston gettin beat by west ham. feckin london clubs.
would av bin the 7th northwest team in the top flight if u wud av made it.

12,558 doesn't sound very many compared to the population of the Manchester conurbation. If I assume two people per flat and 2.5m, it's only 1%. Over three or four years it doesn't sound very much at all. As for whether this is too many, too many for what? If the planning is all wrong and they fuck things up that's bad. If people get into negative equity or investors don't make much that's bad too, but that's life, it's better than paying rent, and it'll sort itself out.

What I think is remarkable is just how few highrise/apartment blocks were built in previous decades, even though people were happy to live in flats and were turning houses into flats. I wonder how long it will be before people think councils were crazy for knocking down their tower blocks!

I bet the figure would be over 15000 with all developments included. But consider that most of these apartments are all of the same type, posh, not affordable, and almost all are in the city centre or Salford Quays.
Only 2/3rd of Leftbank has been sold and it's been on the market for almost 3 years!
If alot of these apartments that are going up right now end up empty the market isn't going to slow down, it'll be a disastorous crash.

However developments like Quay 5 Ordsall should have no trouble selling as they start at a mere £79,000, but they days of the £130,000 one bed city centre flat may be coming to an end? Supply exceeding demand?

I bet the figure would be over 15000 with all developments included. But consider that most of these apartments are all of the same type, posh, not affordable, and almost all are in the city centre or Salford Quays.
Only 2/3rd of Leftbank has been sold and it's been on the market for almost 3 years!
If alot of these apartments that are going up right now end up empty the market isn't going to slow down, it'll be a disastorous crash.

However developments like Quay 5 Ordsall should have no trouble selling as they start at a mere £79,000, but they days of the £130,000 one bed city centre flat may be coming to an end? Supply exceeding demand?


I'm not well versed in the workings of the housing market but shouldn't economics suggest that if flats aren't selling the price needs to be lowered rather than maintained and the flat remain unsold?

It won't be a crash, Caw. The media always talk a load of crap and hype about property prices. After all the scaremongering nonsense we had on the telly and in the papers last year, house prices rose 10%. Sure, prices can go down as well as up, and there's always people who paid too much for their property, but that's life. There's always risk, unless you want to throw your money away paying rent.

Leftbank is a gigantic scheme. In the region of 400 apartments and all towards the upper end of the market. 2/3 of the entire scheme sold with phase 1 only just reaching practical completion sounds like good going to me.

But, as always, there is a dire need for more affordable and diverse accommodation. Slowly we are beginning to realise this with 3 storey family sized townhouses and larger apartments appearing in the city centre and more affordable schemes (or with an element of affordability) appearing at the fringes.

It does stagger me though the confidence with which people are investing in huge chunks of these schemes. As long as Manchester's economy continues to grow and as long as developers build sustainable schemes that people want to live and remain in I can't see a crash coming any time soon.

I'm not well versed in the workings of the housing market but shouldn't economics suggest that if flats aren't selling the price needs to be lowered rather than maintained and the flat remain unsold?

Yes, and lowering prices equal less profit, and less developers willing to develop schemes.

PS. unlucky Accura with preston gettin beat by west ham. feckin london clubs.
would av bin the 7th northwest team in the top flight if u wud av made it.
Yeah, maybe next time eh? ;)

A "property crash" is good if you haven't got your own place, and is bad if you've got more than one place. If like most people you've only got one place, it's academic. Newspapers pretend it isn't, and the end result is that younger more inexperienced people get scared and stay in rented, thereby paying off other people's mortgages. Obviously more supply than demand will tend to push prices down or at least stop them rising so much, so more flats is a good thing for younger people.

When it comes to buying a property, always try to buy a spacious place in a good (or soon to be good) area with a nice outlook, parking, and some greenery if you can. Then even if prices do peg back, maybe you'll still be ahead of the game.

Its petty simple if the developer doesnt develop, the developer doesnt make any money. Even if the developer knows there not going to make money straight away, all they have to do is borrow money, build the development and wait for them to sell because they know that in end a £130,000 apartment in a city center where everything is always changing will sell. Even if they have to wait a year or two.

And another thing, with so many different schemes being built right now, there is alot of competition in the city centre market and it is becoming harder for developers to get their schemes noticed by potential buyers, surely a great way to get noticed and get some free publicity is TO BUILD BIG! :cheers:

It is, caw, though potential buyers will hunt out the apartments and don't really need the publicity. More importantly, people like skyscrapers, it's why they're always the backdrop and on the picture postcards. Plus you get the "condo" effect. It becomes economical to have a doorman, you can maybe work in a leisure club and pool, and you get some very attractive critical mass.

I bet the figure would be over 15000 with all developments included. But consider that most of these apartments are all of the same type, posh, not affordable, and almost all are in the city centre or Salford Quays.
Only 2/3rd of Leftbank has been sold and it's been on the market for almost 3 years!
If alot of these apartments that are going up right now end up empty the market isn't going to slow down, it'll be a disastorous crash.

However developments like Quay 5 Ordsall should have no trouble selling as they start at a mere £79,000, but they days of the £130,000 one bed city centre flat may be coming to an end? Supply exceeding demand?

If they are building too many then these posh flats will soon be affordable for more people as the prices will crash, good news for anyone wanting to move to Manc, bad news for the investors.

If they're not building too many then prices will hold up along with demand which means the Manc economy must be doing well. Either way the very fact they are being built is good news, a lot of the housing stock in Greater Manc is poor quality and old so anything that improves the overall standard is to be welcomed.

I could never see a housing crash in the city center its seems different than someone just selling a house. The developers atm run Manchester housing market so they can ask for £130,000. It wont crash for now but if in 4 years time most of flat's have been sold to normal home owners you could see quite a mess unfold.

I could never see a housing crash in the city center its seems different than someone just selling a house. The developers atm run Manchester housing market so they can ask for £130,000.

They can ask for whatever they want but they'll only get it if someone is willing to pay it. That's only going to happen if enough people are earning enough money.

Only 2/3rd of Leftbank has been sold and it's been on the market for almost 3 years!

This proves that high rises sell a lot quicker. Look at beetham, most where sold before it started. Why wasnt this the same with leftbank? Because it is a highrise?

I recon some of them leftbank apartments havent sold because they are waiting for the hardman sqaure offices to be built. Once there built more jobs and more people. They will sell.

Don't kid yourself that prices will "crash", Jonesy. People who live in rented accommodation kid themselves about prices crashing, for years on end. Very sad. People who own their own home know better. If prices go down fewer people sell, so prices don't crash. And the next place is cheaper anway. Aw, there's always peaks and troughs, you can always find some people who paid too much, and there's always scaremongering newspapers telling porkies to sell newspapers.

Yep, people are realising these days that a good place to live really makes for a better life. So they put money into their home. So the place looks better. They feel better, prouder, happier, more energetic, more enthusiastic and creative. And they do have a better life.

Just read in this weeks EGI that Leeds has an over supplie of City Centre apartments,(like Manc) but developers are not being put off because there is still a steady up take!

So its a catch 22 for the developers! Build, but don't expect the apartments to sell straightaway! Look long term! :)

Don't kid yourself that prices will "crash", Jonesy. People who live in rented accommodation kid themselves about prices crashing, for years on end. Very sad. People who own their own home know better. If prices go down fewer people sell, so prices don't crash. And the next place is cheaper anway. Aw, there's always peaks and troughs, you can always find some people who paid too much, and there's always scaremongering newspapers telling porkies to sell newspapers.

Yep, people are realising these days that a good place to live really makes for a better life. So they put money into their home. So the place looks better. They feel better, prouder, happier, more energetic, more enthusiastic and creative. And they do have a better life.

I didn't say that prices will crash, I said they could crash if developers had overestimated demand. Prices can crash as they did in the early 90s. One thing is for sure though, we can't go on having increases of 20%-30% per year unless incomes also go up by that amount which I think is unlikely. If that happened a house that cost £100,000 now would cost £3.85m at 20% or £19m at 30%!! in 20 years time.

It's not really the price of housing that matters it's how affordable the cost of mortgages is. With low interest rates, easier credit and modestly increasing incomes we have had a bubble but don't kid yourself it's going to happen forever.

There will always be people who have to sell during a downturn for personal reasons, they die, they get a job in another part of the country, they emigrate, they start a family or whatever.

At the moment in many areas of the country renting is much cheaper than a mortgage especially if you factor in insurance, maintenance costs etc. If interest rates and/or house prices go up further this will only increase the gap.

If I was looking to buy my first place at the moment I would be reluctant to do so.

Leeds is even worse than Manchester in this case. They are building loads and loads of apartments but virtually nothing else. At least Manchester has some other stuff to justify them (although not as much as may be necessary) such as BoNY, BBC and Unity.
In this case, I believe Liverpool is getting the balance right better than anybody else.
Even with Capital of Culture, they arnt going totally overboard with apartments.

Hopefully the increasing supply will encourage developers to build bigger/cheaper or higher quality apartments. Even if there were 5000 apartments too many in Manchester/Leeds/Liverpool etc..... if those 5000 apartments are all overpriced cheap looking boxes, if a developer comes along and builds 100 apartments that are either bigger than the average rabbit hutch/Under 100k or a in a spectacular building, location or have a stunning interior, they are still gonig to fly of the shevles.

There's not too many apartments being built in any of Britains cities, but there are too many cheaply constructed over priced shoeboxes.

manc should slow down the flats being built,its actually a very deproved city, that needs to help the poor,these flats are making the gap between rich and poor greater

manc should slow down the flats being built,its actually a very deproved city, that needs to help the poor,these flats are making the gap between rich and poor greater

Grow up and shut up please.

You don't help the poor by making the place unattractive for well off people anyway.

I agree with that Jonesy.

I remember my Grandad, he lived in Gorton, in a depressing Coronation Street house with an outside lavatory and newspaper on a nail. I used to feel sorry for him and the seeming poverty suffered by my Dad. Until my Dad told me how my Grandad actually was pretty well paid and used to piss all his money up against the wall. He wasn't poor, he just didn't give a toss about his home or his family.

But don't be seduced by renting. Unless you're lucky enough to be paying buttons it's a con. Suppose you and your partner pay £1000 rent per month. After five years you've shelled out £60,000, and it's gone forever. Chances are on a mortgage that you'll gain £60,000. That's a swing of £120k. Sure, it might work out different, but I know people who've sold up, moved into rented, and lost out big time. I don't know ANYBODY who's better off because they stayed in rented. Basically, if you have a mortgage, it's like living rent free, only better.

I bumped into this on google.

http://movingmanchester.com/index.asp?Sessionx=IpqiNw86IlxoNwB6IaqiNwA

The residential property market in Manchester City Centre is currently experiencing a time of re-adjustment. Having experienced 7 or 8 years of continuous growth, the market has taken time to react to a series of interest rate rises during 2004.

The first quarter of 2005 saw a huge number of new applicants coming back into the marketplace, returning after incorrect media predictions of an impending property crash. However, along with the new applicants, we have been experiencing a huge amount of fresh stock coming onto the market, following the completion of a large number of landmark developments, within the City Centre. This has had the expected standard economic effect of causing prices to stabilise.

Competition remains fierce between large developers attempting to 'deal' their way out of current schemes that they are marketing, and the individual owner occupier attempting to sell their home. At the moment all vendors whether they be developers or individuals need to be sensible in the pricing of their apartments, competition is fierce and overcooking your asking price will only lead to disappointment and a long marketing campaign. The fact remains that most owner occupiers still have a large amount of equity in their apartment and the key to a quick and successful sale is not to be greedy, buyers are 'doing the rounds' and looking for the best deal out there.

On a more positive note, there are some exceptional opportunities to be had at the moment, with the rental market booming, and residential prices static, we are experiencing a welcome return into the market for 'buy to let' investors, along with a huge upsurge from 'first time buyers', who see Spring 2005 as the ideal time to get their first foot on the property ladder.

Areas to watch at the moment, would be around the Manchester / Salford border, with a number of developments either just launched or coming soon. These include 'Fusion' by George Wimpey, 'Spectrum' on Blackfriars Road by Dandara, 'Saltra' by David McLean Homes, and more schemes to follow from the likes of Urban Splash and BSC Group.

Prices in this region are less than core Manchester City Centre, with purchasers looking for the capital growth, previously only experienced by Manchester City Centre.

Just read in this weeks EGI that Leeds has an over supplie of City Centre apartments,(like Manc) but developers are not being put off because there is still a steady up take!

So its a catch 22 for the developers! Build, but don't expect the apartments to sell straightaway! Look long term! :)

We've been having this sort of discussion for a while in Leeds, and its the same across the country, although having seen CAWs 1st post I'm amazed at that number. I think we have about 7000 planned going forward, but 12000 is massive (although presume they are not all in the Manc CBD and include Salford Quays etc).

If prices stabilise and allow inflation to hoike salaries up a little closer to more realistic salary multiples, those currently renting will be desperate to climb on to the ladder with their little piece of city living.

We've been having this sort of discussion for a while in Leeds, and its the same across the country, although having seen CAWs 1st post I'm amazed at that number. I think we have about 7000 planned going forward, but 12000 is massive (although presume they are not all in the Manc CBD and include Salford Quays etc).


Roughly 2000 of the flats on the list are in Salford Quays, though I admit the largest, Quay Point(Approx 800) is years off if it gets built at all.
The 12558 would be at least 15-16000 I reckon, with all the developments going in included. Couldn't be arsed adding any more to be honest.

Quadrangle - ???

Quadrangle is 228...

Add to that the Mills in Ancoats! Now they are big!

Look on the bright side,

The more flats there are, the more amenities, the more attractive a place becomes, there's a chance all this could lead to a snowball effect, for a lot of people the more concentrated the housing stock is the better as theres more chance of being near people you know, (I'm selfishly thinking of economic migrants (myself) and professionals).

However theres a bit of a paradox in the central manchester market at the moment, all the hutches erm sorry apartments seem to be aimed at 20 somethings, who can really afford to buy one at that price at that time of life.

Theres probably a big difference between what builders are charging now, and the revenue they need to make normal profit. What matters isn't necesserally the curent price of the apartments but how sticky the market is downwards (i.e how much people are willing to stick to their guns on prices).

I for one would snap a builders hands off for a flat if they where 30% cheaper.

PS. unlucky Accura with preston gettin beat by west ham. feckin london clubs.
would av bin the 7th northwest team in the top flight if u wud av made it.

Actually, they would have been the 8th.

People who live in rented accommodation kid themselves about prices crashing, for years on end. Very sad. People who own their own home know better

Just like they knew better in 1988?

The problem is that the City Council have a one-time chance to raise their housing stock from a very low Council Tax-yielding situation to a more acceptable level. So they'll basically approve anything that will give them a load of Band D and E properties occupied by people who are earning a wage.

This is all part of the larger problem that the political boundaries of the city are way too small (cue huge debate), and the City Council has to pay for the vomit to be cleaned up off the streets when the perpetrators are sound asleep in Wigan, Oldham and Rochdale.

This is all part of the larger problem that the political boundaries of the city are way too small (cue huge debate), and the City Council has to pay for the vomit to be cleaned up off the streets when the perpetrators are sound asleep in Wigan, Oldham and Rochdale.

Having spent all evening contributing to the city centre economy and the city centre business rates at the expense of their own.

Look, I know people here want to keep up the flow of shiny new schemes, but housing is not a one way bet. The price of housing has fluctuated between three and five times average earnings. Whenever it it has been at the top end of the cycle a crash usually follows. The previous crashes of 1974 and 1989 followed this pattern.

First time buyers are at an historic low, the number of mortgage applications is down a third since last year. Prices have started to fall in London and the South East, just like the last two crashes. Now the Halifax's predictions is for a 20% to 30% by 2007.

The present problem in the housing market has been exasperated by the buy to let market. Too many people think sinking all of their money into property as an alternative to a pension is somehow safer than an investment fund. The result is that propert market has responded by a glut of one and two bedroom apartments. The planners have not helped by their push for greater density. Their are not enough family homes being built. An analyis of my local market shows the price of flats has been static for a number of years and is in fact now falling. Yet the price of family homes has rocketed (until recently). Yet still more bloody flats are being built, though I notice developers have stared putting signs saying 5% depsoit paid.

My sister has just opened a lettings agency and she is oversubscribed by people wanting to let two bedroom flats, while most of her enquiries have been for 3/4 bedroom homes which there are too few available.

Hopefully the market will adapt, but will planners be flexible? Can a market be established for 3/4 bedroom apartments (that are not luxury penthouses)? They are certainly common on the Continent. It would be a brave developer who risked that in the British market.

"City Living" as they like to call it was always going to be about luxury in this country, we always seem to do things arse about tit, as Rational Plan rightly said and ive said it myself, there are plenty of affordable apartments where families can live in cities all over the continent and America, here everything has to be "luxury" not everyone wants nor needs a "stunning hardwood floor" or Italian granite on their kitchen work top or ultra modern lighting blah blah blah. Over here it was considered very european only a few years ago this city living thing and when it started happening here we were TOLD by these developers that this lifestyle was exclusive and it just snowballed from there, every new apartment building was for luxurious living pleasure etc etc, I hope nobody thinks I sound bitter lol coz im not, Im happy with the place ive got outside town, of course I wouldn't be able to afford it in town. If the city council wants Manchester to feel and indeed be a buzzing metropolis(and yes its on its way) then they need all sorts of people living in the city not just young office types who are doing well for themselves.
Families have not been catered for as much as they should have been, and neither have single people who don't earn good money, the city shouldn't be a luxury ghetto.

People won't want to raise families in the city centre, and that applies for all cities, for that reason your never going to get many people in the city centre developments. What developers need to do to appeal to the family market (Which is the way they should be going as the city centre market saturates) Is build 3 or 4 bed apartments in blocks nothing higher than 8 stories outside the city centre (where they can get land much cheaper and offer much more space per pound) in an area with good shools and that is already heavily popilated by families. Also far enough away from the universities/student ghettos. They can save money and space by only putting en suites in the 4 bedroom properties and installing larger bathrooms suitable for families. Add a few substantial terraces and parking included in the price, and if they are priced fairly they will be snapped up. They can save money by skimping on the luxury finishes like hardwood flooring, limestone bathrooms and interior designed rooms.

At the end of the day families are always going to prefer houses, but if we're ever gonig to get people out of that midset and put a hault to suburban exspansion viable alternitives need to be offered.

Can any of the people calling for cheaper city centre flats come up with a plan for how it would work? If you sold a flat for say 80 grand, how would you stop it being instantly sold on at 130 grand? Are you talking about actual council housing, and does this not come with its own set of problems? Or ownership with strings attatched? Or a cheap rental model?

There is very little money to be saved by stripping granite worktops and pearwood doors, 5 or 10 grand tops and almost certainly less, I'd imagine on a one bedroom flat. At the end of the day, people pay for the size, location and possibly views/light - this is what the market reflects. So where is the money saved? 200sq ft flats? City centre living in Ordsall? Developers profits (Urban splash out of business first, Bruntwood last as they have the capital reserves?) at the expense of a few lucky individuals who instantly sell on?

For me, the only way you can coherently and fairly decrease prices is by putting more stock on the market. If you make that stock desirable it will be expensive, but it will free other stock elsewhere.

To encourage families into the centre you will need plenty of open space, plenty of police wandering around, decent schools and shops you normally see in suburban high streets. You will need to create mid to high rise "inner suburbs" with safe leafy streets on which are hairdresssers, mini markets, post offices, newsagents. Not bars or Starbucks.

People don't live in the centres of continental cities they live in residential districts that to our eyes resemble the centre as they are adjacent to these centres and not seperated by a ring of post industrial dereliction.

The same topography but a more suburban vibe. If you can create that you will get families into the centre.

To encourage families into the centre you will need plenty of open space, plenty of police wandering around, decent schools and shops you normally see in suburban high streets. You will need to create mid to high rise "inner suburbs" with safe leafy streets on which are hairdresssers, mini markets, post offices, newsagents. Not bars or Starbucks.

People don't live in the centres of continental cities they live in residential districts that to our eyes resemble the centre as they are adjacent to these centres and not seperated by a ring of post industrial dereliction.

The same topography but a more suburban vibe. If you can create that you will get families into the centre.

Sound like what they're trying to do with the Green Quarter, in all honesty. Still lacking things like schools, but it's a start.

The thing is the market price is now starting to fall. There will be an over supply of flats in a year and if developers want to sell some of the lesser quality developments they will have to slash prices. In a year or twos time an owner occupier will have a huge choice of city centre apartments to buy and I suspect then there will be alot of average 130-150k one bed apartments on the market which are all the same, and will be very hard to sell. The things that will sell will be apartments with good views, that are high up, are in an excellent location or have large terrace space or quite special interiors. On the other end of the scale, flats that are nearer 100k will sell quickly. This means if a developer/investor wants to stand a chance of selling there apartment in 2 years time (I imagine the buy to let market will have come to a hault, or at least slowed down considerably by then, also investors will have wised up and owner occupiers will start to become the primary market) they will have to drop the price or increase the standard.

Remember that somethings only worth as much as someone is willing to pay for it, in the last 5 years when prices were rocketing people lost there senses and were so desperate to get on the property ladder that theyd pay whatever was asked, also they thought the prices would go up no matter what so they were willing to pay anything as they assumed they would get whatever they paid back.

However now that prices have stopped rising buyers are alot more fussy. They are not jumping at anything that comes on the market and are starting to offer what they think somethings worth rather than what a seller, developer asks.

Of course if someone sells an apartment for 80k there is nothing to stop the person putitng it on the market for 130k the next day, but it doesnt mean tehy will get their price.

I'm not talking abou people sellnig apartment lower than the market price just to be nice, I'm on about develoeprs lowering prices out of necessity, as in a few years, i suspect they will have to if they want to sell.

More stock is being put on the market, so hopefully prices will fall a bit, or at least stop so that incomes get a chance to catch up.

Well said Isaac.

Skopie, there really is a load of nonsense spouted in the press about property prices. For example the annual rise in house price inflation falls, and papers say "house prices fall". You really have to get out and about and do some footwork to get a true picture of what's going on.

If anybody is paying rent, stop paying rent, buy a property for yourself rather than somebody else. Find a way. Buy wisely. Look for potential, spaciousness, views, location, wow factor. Get as much advice as you can from as many people as possible. The property ladder will overall move up and down, but get on it, and get climbing.

Well said Isaac.

Skopie, there really is a load of nonsense spouted in the press about property prices. For example the annual rise in house price inflation falls, and papers say "house prices fall". You really have to get out and about and do some footwork to get a true picture of what's going on.

If anybody is paying rent, stop paying rent, buy a property for yourself rather than somebody else. Find a way. Buy wisely. Look for potential, spaciousness, views, location, wow factor. Get as much advice as you can from as many people as possible. The property ladder will overall move up and down, but get on it, and get climbing.

Good grief, you can't say two words about buildings without revealing yourself as being a bit on the daft side, why do you think anybody is going to take any notice of your half baked economics?

The fact of the matter is that at the moment, renting is cheaper than paying off just the interest on a mortgage on an identical property. I'll let some idiot BTL investor subsidise my housing while I save for a deposit to use when house prices fall, which they undoubtedly will.

I'd be very wary about waiting for house prices to fall. We are stuttering on the brink of a recession at the moment but this does not mean we're heading for a housing crash. The UK is well placed to weather the storm because it's economy restructured itself under Thatcher.

Manchester is not full of big factories on the brink of closure, that happened over 20 years ago. The local economy is based around services whilst the BTL sector is partly funded from the South East were many people cannot get onto the housing ladder. They are basically buying elswhere and hoping that the gap between the North and South will slowly close. These BTL owners still live at home with mum and dad, they won't be selling soon.

As for the developers I cannot see them cutting their losses and running, if their is a slowdown it will be reflected in the lack of new building rather than cut price housing sales.

Yep, that sounds about right Isaac. But what's this from sprouty?

Good grief, you can't say two words about buildings without revealing yourself as being a bit on the daft side, why do you think anybody is going to take any notice of your half baked economics?
Daft? Half Baked? Fine, you carry on paying rent. My house is worth a million plus.

Yep, that sounds about right Isaac. But what's this from sprouty?


Daft? Half Baked? Fine, you carry on paying rent. My house is worth a million plus.

What has the value of your house got to do with anything? You didn't pay anything like that much for it, and that's what matters. You're trying to persuade people to buy a house now, not 6 years ago.

exactly and right now its very hard for people on a normal wage not this average wage we always hear of £20k or so, no I mean normal wage, anywhere between 12k and 15k, firstly their salary won't get them much of a mortgage and secondly they'll be broke trying to pay the repayments. Basically your average working man cannot afford to but a house in the city he lives in. I mean what sort of gaff are you gonna get in Manchester for 40k or so coz thats all your gonna get on 12k salary.

Sprouty: The value of my house is testimony to my daft half baked economics. Fine, you know better, you do what you like.

Or would that be wisdom and experience?

Get a partner Roly. Or a wife.

LOL a wife..thats a good one

also I should point out Im not talking about myself, I earn way more than that lol, no seriously Im not talking about me im happy with the flat I have I just pity people I know who would love to live in town( I don't) but its just a dream.

Can any of the people calling for cheaper city centre flats come up with a plan for how it would work?

My theory is that the developers could take less of a cut.

Could they afford to build flats before the boom and sell them on?

If so, and its a big "if so", so big i'm going to write it again in bold

If so

then surely they can make flats cheaper and still make a profit?

Now no company is going to do that voluntarily, however market conditions might impose it on them, therefore if there is a trend towards city living whose fortunes aren't 100% linked to the general housing market (which i firmly believe) then that trend can still continue but with lower prices.

erm and they can stop adding those second bathrooms n all, and i'll design my own kitchen thanks i don't need someone called conran to do it.

The problem with building flats for sale at less than the market price is that they have to stay out of the market. Basically thay have to become privately built council flats with no right to buy. Market price is all about location and in an area where there is an average price of 130,000 you cannot build and sell for 80,000 because the buyer would instantly be able to sell on for 130,000 thus decreasing the stock of 80,000 properties. Back to square one.

Perhaps what is needed is Japanese style mortages which can be 100 years long. Maybe the government could hand these out in areas it wishes to regenerate.

The only way you are going to get cheaper flats is if the price of land falls. It is the major constraint to affordabilty. The biggest determinate to creating good middle class/ family neighbourhoods is good quality schools. A really good school pushes up prices, it attracts devlopers of large family homes etc etc. In Chicago the mayor has recognised that to hold onto their tax base they need to keep the middle class, and one of chief reasons people fleed to the suburbs is the good schooling found in comparison. So far all of his efforts have been intrying to break up the crushing bureaucarcy of the school board. They have had some success many schools are more independent and often specialise in different areas. Exam results are up more of the middle class are moving back. This sort of change is incredibly hard, has the council the stomach or does it even think it matters? Its not a matter of money, Inner London has the highest spending per pupil, but some of the worst schools. People on quite ordinary incomes resort to private education because they feel they don't have any choice.

I know some the proposed neighbourhood clearence programmes have been seen as controversial, but if some the areas were replaced by grand crescents and squares of 4/5/6 bedroom homes with good parks and schools then central Manchesters landscape and underlying economy would be transformed. A bit ambitous? Almost certainly, you'll probably end up with a mix of two /three bedroom developer boxs with a few random blobs of low rise flats.

The only way you are going to get cheaper flats is if the price of land falls.

And the only reason that land is currently so expensive is that the supply of land for building is artificially constrained by planning regulations. I don't want to concrete over the entire UK but 92% of land in this country is still undeveloped, surely 1-2% less agricultural land won't hurt anybody.

If you build more dwellings per hectare of land this should reduce the cost of land per property too, build higher and denser in the cities, if it's done imaginatively and to a good standard people like it, just don't do it on the cheap and then leave the developments to rot like in the 50s-70s.

Despite the concentrated activity in some areas like Manc city centre, we are actually building less new dwellings than we have for decades at a time when the population is rising and demographic changes are also fuelling demand. No wonder house prices have skyrocketed.

Jonesy, it ain't so simple. Land is expensive because people always want to get as much as they can for it whilst others compete to buy it. And they ain't making it any more. More dwellings per hectare might reduce the cost of land per property, but it increases the cost of land. Then you can get stuck with high density everywhere, no greenery, no amenity, and the sort of overbuilt urban wasteland where people don't want to live. Chuck in crime and crap schools, and you're soon into a downward spiral again. It's called "The Common Effect", where free competition degrades a resource.

The solution is really of the "Masterplan" type, where you have a design and a vision, and the clout to steer free competition in the right direction. Which is why Manchester needs local government (or at least a mayor) that spans the conurbation.

Jonesy, it ain't so simple. Land is expensive because people always want to get as much as they can for it whilst others compete to buy it. And they ain't making it any more. More dwellings per hectare might reduce the cost of land per property, but it increases the cost of land. Then you can get stuck with high density everywhere, no greenery, no amenity, and the sort of overbuilt urban wasteland where people don't want to live. Chuck in crime and crap schools, and you're soon into a downward spiral again. It's called "The Common Effect", where free competition degrades a resource.

The solution is really of the "Masterplan" type, where you have a design and a vision, and the clout to steer free competition in the right direction. Which is why Manchester needs local government (or at least a mayor) that spans the conurbation.

People do want to live in high density areas though if they are done well, look at Manchester city centre or Manhattan for example Why not have good high density housing with nice green areas and amenities too? You'll still make more efficient use of the land than sprawling suburbs and it will have knock-on effects for the viability of public transport. There's no reson why high density should have to equal crap schools and high crime, it only happens if you use high density to provide cheap housing for people who can't afford anything else and who you then forget about and let the area fall into ruin.

I'm quite aware that the price of land is a function of supply and demand as is anything, my point was that the price is so high because the supply is restricted by planning regulations and not natural availability, 92% of this country is undeveloped.

We are building less homes now than for years despite single old people living longer, young people leaving home earlier, less people living with extended families, population growth etc that all require us to build more, this is why house/building land prices have gone up so much.

People do want to live in high density areas though if they are done well, look at Manchester city centre or Manhattan for example Why not have good high density housing with nice green areas and amenities too? You'll still make more efficient use of the land than sprawling suburbs and it will have knock-on effects for the viability of public transport. There's no reason why high density should have to equal crap schools and high crime...
I couldn't agree more, Jonesy. But I know about crime and stuff, I used to live on Langley in Middleton. Scroats can really fuck up an area. And I thank Christ we have planning. I know the restrictions increases land prices, but the alternative could be the sort of place nobody wants to live. In fact I'd like to see more planning on a bigger scale covering more aspects of life. But combined with the free market rather than some socialist imposition.

Green Quarter - 1300 (640 u/c)
Dandara Blackfriars - 578
St Georges Island - 404
Leftbank - 391
Tempus - 365
Skyline Central - 292
GN Tower - 257
Abito - 256
Beetham - 216
Fusion (M'wood locks) - 212
Vie - 207
Pall Mall - 169
Chapel Street 11 storey - 146
Ancoats Street Tower - 140
Sarah Tower - 120
Issa Quay - 83
Bauhaus - 60
The Bayley - 53
Baring St tower??
Plymouth Grove??


Erie Basin Twr - 210
Citylofts - 203
Taylorson St - 207


At least 4589 units U/C in the city centre in highrises alone, with a further 620 at the Quays.

City Centre

Completed since 2000 At least 2925
Ropeworks - 300
The Edge - 275
Quadrangle - 228
Lock Building - 154
Citygate - 215
Timber Wharf - 181
Hacienda - 161
River City - 138
Brittania Mills - 125 (renovation)
Century Buildings - 121 (renovation)
Green Quarter - 114
Vantage Quay - 117
Dandara Base - 104
Moho - 102
1 Deansgate - 88
Castlegate - 84
Box Works - 83
Smithfields - 81 (renovation)
25 Church Street - 78
The Bridge - 71
Icon 25 - 60
Dandara 360 - 59
Trinity Court - 57
38 High Street - 49
The Swan - 36
St George's Church - 25 (renovation)
114 Princess St + Montana House - ???
Parkers Apartments - ???

Under Construction At least 6582
Green Quarter - 636
Dandara Blackfriars - 578
Macintosh Village - 502 (dunno how many have been built so far so it's lumped in here)
St Georges Island - 404
Leftbank - 391
Tempus - 365
Royal Mills - 312
Skyline Central - 292
Hill Quays - 267
GN Tower - 257
Abito - 256
Beetham - 216
Fusion (M'wood locks) - 212
Vie - 207
Dale Street Mills - 201 (renovation)
Adelphi Square Piccadilly - 200 (renovation)
Plymouth Grove - 174
Pall Mall - 169
Piccadilly Place - 167
Chapel Street 11 storey - 146
Ancoats Street Tower - 140
Sarah Tower - 120
Issa Quay - 83
Bauhaus - 67
The Bayley - 53
Baring St tower??

Approved 2738
Chapel Wharf - 990
Eastgate - 700
Green Quarter - 311
Crown Building - 237
Citylofts Chester Road - 210
ISIS Wharf - 200
2-4 Chester Road - 90

Proposed At least 4088
Application submitted
Chapel St - 550
Faber St - 500
The Beacon - 473
Adelphi Street - 295
1 Water St - 160
ATS - 140
Potato Wharf - 70

Not submitted
Green Quarter - ~400
Middlewood Locks - ~1500


Salford Quays At least 2624
Completed since 2000 At least 358
NV Towers - 246
Imperial Point - 112
Sovereign Point - ???

Under Construction 620
Erie Basin Twr - 210
Citylofts - 203
Taylorson St - 207

Approved
Harbour City - 600

Proposed
Quay Point - 800
Modus - ???
The Regent - 246


Obviously the list is mainly highrise developments so is far short of being exhaustive, but the total figure is 18630.

There's obviously a market for it, otherwise the developers just wouldn't build. You see adverts saying 'vie - 80% gone' etc and you think, "who's buying these?" - lol, i aint complaining.

The city centre's gonna be thriving in the years to come. Cheers for the list chris.

Nice work fella!
You really should get out more though! (or have a week old baby and a poorly 3 year old at least!)
Whats the feeling on these numbers though?
Market forces etc etc etc or Saturation point?

If you were to put all the new jobs that going to be in Manchester over the next ten years, those flats and apartments would be no where near enough(thats if all those people just bought in the city centre). I dont, I might be wrong but I think there are going to be around 30,000 new jobs in Spinningfields alone. Theres the Bank of New York who have created around 1000 jobs and then we have the BBC who are moving around 1000 jobs. Thats where the developers are getting their demand from, I cant think of anything else.

I dont think its saturation point. My girlfriend and I would love to live in the city but our combined saleries of around £35k just doesnt buy much (esp without a large deposit). Maybe we'll start to see more low cost property in the future. At the moment I think a lot of the properties in the city are going to investors not owner occupiers. Maybe we'll reach saturation point for investors soon though,

The definatly a market for them ,or the developer's wont bother building them like its already been said,,i know a least 5 people who have moved to the city centre since new year,,,come on were talking about Manchester here not Mansfield .

If i was buying in the city centre i would try not to buy off a investor, there the one's taking the big risk's , but ey there the one's that can afford to.

Answer: Yes.

I was slightly concerned about saturation a couple of years back, not now. If anything we'll need more before long such is the rapid growth at the moment, which will lead to more growth. I think Manchester has gone past the point of return now.

I think the question being posed is not really very useful.

Are they building too many of the wrong type of flats might be more relevant. Too many 1 and 2 bedroom developments with tiny balconies do not make for sustainable development nor a sustainable city. Thankfully MCC seem to have cottoned onto this are requiring developers to make their schemes more family friendly. East Manchester in particular seems to be being earmarked for high density, modern, family friendly-type development. We need more of this. More larger apartments more diversity of accommodation within schemes and more quality ameneity.

I think what we're seeing is a move towards the European city model, where the city centre is threaded with and surrounded by apartments and townhouses occupied by hundreds of thousands of people. So Manchester could have a way to go yet.

I agree with SleepyOne about the type of dwelling, and about the associated facilities and amenities like schools/parks/entertainment/leisure/retail. I don't think they're building too many flats, but I'm not sure they're building enough other stuff.

Yes. Of course we are. After 10+years of rising house prices our now filthy rich developers have got carried away and are throwing up as many quickly built flats as possible.

It's what happens in booms.

Apart from anything else, living in these city centre flats just isn't what it is cracked up to be. They are typically very small, you have no garden, you hear everyone in the flats around you, you have no privacy, and you have no local amenities. I have lived in several of these flats in Liverpool (The Tea Factory and Manolis Yard for instance).

You very rarely see children living in these new flats and, frankly, it would be a horrible and dangerous place to bring up a child. That raises a big question of what exactly these flats are for in the long term.

As investment properties there must be a limited supply of under 30's who want to rent this type of flat.

I personally spent a couple of years in rented city centre flats then slowly moved out to the suburbs seeking better quality of life. I think I am fairly typical of people I know.

Back in the day this style of building was called a 'tower block' and was named such things as 'Mandela House'. These days we call them 'luxury apartment developments' and call them such things as 'Nono'.

In 30years we'll be pulling down much of what is being built now.

Another scheme.

Looks quite interesting.

Can't place the exact location in my sponge. Give us a clue.

078851/OO/2006/C1

12 Mirabel Street
Manchester
M3 1PJ

OUTLINE APPLICATION with all matters reserved for - Erection of an 11 storey building (plus basement and ground) comprising 33 no. 2 bedroom apartments, 6 no. duplex apartments (floors 1 to 11), retail at ground floor (Use Class A1) and basement car park.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v397/jrb041067/klopnip.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v397/jrb041067/nmyo.jpg

It's near the junction of Trinity Way and Victoria Street:

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e321/carlf/MirabelStreet.gif

Cheers Hi Fi.

I do think we need more family units, high density housing and services for families within the city centre. Hopefully we'll start to see more of this on the peripheries in such places as Cornbrook, Ancoats, Chapel St etc. Whether we ever see a continental style seemless merge between the city and residential districts though I have my doubts,

Another scheme.

Looks quite interesting.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v397/jrb041067/nmyo.jpg

Wow, they really put a huge effort into the graphics for this planning app didn't they? :crazy:

it's almost photorealistic

Too many new flats in Manchester, that's for sure. I pity the poor so & so's that have bought one in the past couple of years, I bet they will really have trouble getting anywhere near what they paid for them.

On Midlands Today (BBC news program) last night, there was an article about just this subject with people experiencing negative equity already in central Birmingham. With thousands of new city centre apartments coming on to the market in the next few years, I think developers are going to have to re-consider prices of these properties. The same must be true in Manchester I would imagine.

When I worked in Hunters estate agents we had to break many Irish hearts when the investors who'd bought them off plan )at crappy developments like the Bridge or some of the poorer Castlefield stuff) came in to be found that rather than risen £30k, their flats had lost about that amount.

This was recently in the Guardian and articulates many peoples views well:

(sorry its small can't seem to 'zoom' it)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v225/Traffordcraig/Guard1.jpg

Here#s the article in a readable format:

http://society.guardian.co.uk/communities/comment/0,,1741445,00.html

Too many new flats in Manchester, that's for sure. I pity the poor so & so's that have bought one in the past couple of years, I bet they will really have trouble getting anywhere near what they paid for them.

On Midlands Today (BBC news program) last night, there was an article about just this subject with people experiencing negative equity already in central Birmingham. With thousands of new city centre apartments coming on to the market in the next few years, I think developers are going to have to re-consider prices of these properties. The same must be true in Manchester I would imagine.

But so what at the end of the day. You invest, as a developer or a buyer of one of the apartments, and you gain or make a loss. That's investment for you.

Surely such great numbers of apartments must eventually pull the prices down,making them more attainable to yer average peeps. I definately think that all these 1 and 2 bedroomed appartments are not ideal. Can someone tell me why a developer doesn't come in and say "Hang on a minute, I'm no Einstein but there appears to be a lack of 3 and 4 bedroomed appartments here. Lets build some of them cause we'll have sod all competition".

I'm going to assume that 50 2 bedroomed apartments can be sold for significantly more than 25 four bedroomed. I can't think of any other reason why people don't build them.

I'd put myself as one of these 'unsustainable, just passing though, young professional types' and even my ideal house would probably be a 4-5 bedroomed appartment share in the northern quarter. There aren't any of these so I don't ever see myself living in the city centre.

I couldn't think of anythying worse than being shaked up in a box on my own, with just me and 250 other people shacked up in a box on their own; city centre or not. Is this not a modern, slightly more affluent bedsit land? I, like practically everyone I know that is around my age and lives in Manchester, bouce around the Chorlton and Didsbury's of the city and enjoy the local ameinities and living with other people (which tends to also be cheaper).

Speaking as an 'unsustainable' I see attainable city centre living as manchester's biggest selling point. It is the only major thing we could soon offer that London does not....but not if its all made up of 1 and 2 bedrooms.

My point is 3 and 4 bedrooms that could 'apparently' be used for families to make these more sustainable areas but they are not the only ones who want them. Make some for me!!

Another scheme.

Looks quite interesting.

Can't place the exact location in my sponge. Give us a clue.

078851/OO/2006/C1

12 Mirabel Street
Manchester
M3 1PJ

OUTLINE APPLICATION with all matters reserved for - Erection of an 11 storey building (plus basement and ground) comprising 33 no. 2 bedroom apartments, 6 no. duplex apartments (floors 1 to 11), retail at ground floor (Use Class A1) and basement car park.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v397/jrb041067/klopnip.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v397/jrb041067/nmyo.jpg

Hi JRB.- just to clarify fruther- The Building that is already in place is the Beaumont building. It currently has a lighting shop 'the lightbox' underneath and sits between the Tempus develpmont and the MEN arena.

About time something happened there. Beaumont was one of the first schemes in the city- before the major rush anyway- ptre 2000 start. The Tempus development has really enhanced that little area- especailly the old bit. It's not scary to walk around anymore!

Surely such great numbers of apartments must eventually pull the prices down,making them more attainable to yer average peeps. I definately think that all these 1 and 2 bedroomed appartments are not ideal. Can someone tell me why a developer doesn't come in and say "Hang on a minute, I'm no Einstein but there appears to be a lack of 3 and 4 bedroomed appartments here. Lets build some of them cause we'll have sod all competition".



because they build all the family homes over cheap green field sites in large horizontal expansions of towns across the country. Apparantly this is what average Joe + 2.4 children wants... but it is more likely that it is cheap for the house builder to build en-masse on fields rather than have to worry abuot urban design, architecture, transport and social issues inside a dense City or Town and therefore in reality Mr Average Joe doesnt really have much choice in the matter.

Glasgow has impressed me the most with it's city centre residential development. As well as the usual collection of shoebox 1 and 2 bedrooms, they are building alot of 3 bedrooms, and the occasional 4 bedroom aswell. They're not nessercerilly affordable, but it's a step in the right direction.

Of course the cheaper property prices make this a bit easier, it's all well and good building large apartments, but if no one can afford them it doesn't matter.

At well over £300 a sqaure foot, it's near impossible to make flats a good size and affordable in Manc city centre.

But 3 and 4 bedroom flats are being built and proposed in increasing numbers in Manchester all be it at the top end of the market for the moment. You also have a row of recently completed town houses, right in the city centre but neatly integrated within the Macintosh Village development. Article (http://www.manchesteronline.co.uk/homesearch/latest/s/202/202878_central_living_with_asense_of_community.html)

Interesting how there have been a glut of articles recently about rich individuals asking developers to knock two or even three apartments together to make larger family size living quarters. This shows there is some sort of pent up demand for larger, more diverse units. The trick is now to really establish this as the rule rather than the exception and also make encourage this at the more affordable end of the market too. There are really encouraging signs coming from the council such that they are starting to insist on this approach from developers where it is appropriate.

May have been voxed an another thread but in the 'homes' section of today's MEN there is a piece on a family who have moved from their nice Georgian pile into the city (the kids are more teenagers mind). Skyline central I believe. Relatively rare at this stage though (and they tend to move into the flippin expensive penthouse suites).
They need to build city centre looking apartments/blocks (3/4 bed) but a little further out on the fringes as has been identified many times before as a continental template.

Apparently I've been told that they're putting them up so bloody fast and at such a relentless pace in Manchester these days that the street map producers (Ordnance Survey and Geographers) can't keep up with them - they tend to only revise their street map editions every 12-15 months or so but as soon as they do they're already fucking well out of date cos of so many new developments in the city area. This is what I've heard from two development guys I spoke to recently and it's not that far off the truth to be honest with you! The latest A-Z of Manchester was revised in late 2005 and it already misses a staggering 27 new entries in the inner city area. :eek:

My map is really old - Sunley ain't on there (some splendid Victorain business going on) and the Arndale is merely a set of patterned streets full of gorgeous buildings. A bit life on Mars.
Whereyabin Marty lad?

Here as always Northy - I haven't been away or anything. Been mostly busy posting in the Brum forum though.

I thought you would be firmly ensconced in Amsterdam by now fella. One day perhaps?
Glad you're still knocking around these parts...we made need a decent rant from you - a kind of virtual spring clean if you will :)

But so what at the end of the day. You invest, as a developer or a buyer of one of the apartments, and you gain or make a loss. That's investment for you.

Yes, but as highlighted in the news program, lenders are not valuing them at the same prices as the developers, so you are not able to get a loan on them. The people that are going to get their fingers burnt are the ones that are paying cash.

This isn't supply & demand going on here, it is supply, supply, supply, to try and create a demand, & what is actually happening is, even more so in Manchester than in Birmingham, is that a lot of these apartments are beeing sold to overseas investors, in Hong Kong, Shanghai, etc, to be rented back at a lower level. This is going to make it impossible for anyone to sell them on the second hand market at anywhere near what they have paid for them. It could take 10 years before anyone gets back to break-even, and this will kill off the housing boom in central Manchester because it is not a "real" market place for property.

The developers don't give a shit. Once their apartments are sold, it's no longer their problem.

Dandara/Chapel Warf, 1000 apartments! Jesus!

My doubts about Eastgate being built are growing. Will it be financially viable?

Good point there jrb. It seems like there's been 'too much, too soon', and it's hardly been demand-led. Let's wait and see.

I still think Manchester's in a better position than any other regional UK city to attract the punters. City centre empoyment to increase by a further 100,000 over the next however long etc.

The developers don't give a shit. Once their apartments are sold, it's no longer their problem.

Dandara/Chapel Warf, 1000 apartments! Jesus!

My doubts about Eastgate being built are growing. Will it be financially viable?
Yes if it wasnt they wouldnt be thinking about building it. Also because its a one off aka (like the new tallest in Manchester) people from around the land will buy apartments and the top apartments will likely go for millions each. The apartments in Beetham that people have built to sell on are reaching 3 times the price they were worth when they first bought them and I recon its just because of the building.

I thought you would be firmly ensconced in Amsterdam by now fella. One day perhaps?
Glad you're still knocking around these parts...we made need a decent rant from you - a kind of virtual spring clean if you will :)


Living in Amsterdam is becoming an increasingly unlikely scenario the longer I'm still stuck here - I might well be dead before I get the chance to get away!

I'm saving my energies into composing the mother of all rants - well, TWO in fact - one huge instalment addressed to Network Rail, about their pathetically short-sighted New Street Station redevelopment proposals - ripping their plans to pieces and putting them in the picture as to what really should be done whilst severely chastising them for being a bunch of overpaid incompetents who don't have a fucking clue how to go about addressing this whole thing, and a second one to them (Network Rail again) asking them politely whether or not they really are taking the piss when it comes to the TENTH summer shutdown in as many years to merely "fiddle about" with the Stockport Station trackwork and signalling - and why the fuck it's taking them so long to do this when it's clear to everyone that the last five years has seen naff all difference to the resignalling work - plus the fact that the new platform is STILL not even opened yet - THREE years after it was built! After these two mammoth undertakings, don't be surprised if I no longer have the strength to rant ever again! ;)

Living in Amsterdam is becoming an increasingly unlikely scenario the longer I'm still stuck here - I might well be dead before I get the chance to get away!

I'm saving my energies into composing the mother of all rants - well, TWO in fact - one huge instalment addressed to Network Rail, about their pathetically short-sighted New Street Station redevelopment proposals - ripping their plans to pieces and putting them in the picture as to what really should be done whilst severely chastising them for being a bunch of overpaid incompetents who don't have a fucking clue how to go about addressing this whole thing, and a second one to them (Network Rail again) asking them politely whether or not they really are taking the piss when it comes to the TENTH summer shutdown in as many years to merely "fiddle about" with the Stockport Station trackwork and signalling - and why the fuck it's taking them so long to do this when it's clear to everyone that the last five years has seen naff all difference to the resignalling work - plus the fact that the new platform is STILL not even opened yet - THREE years after it was built! After these two mammoth undertakings, don't be surprised if I no longer have the strength to rant ever again! ;)

Good to have you back Martin, and I'll look forward to those rants!!! How's the ear, able to gig again. Im seeing your favourite dEUS in Germany in July at Hurricane fest which I'm looking forward to greatly. By the way my numbers changed, BT wouldnt let me keep it when I moved house, catch up with you soon.

Yes if it wasnt they wouldnt be thinking about building it. Also because its a one off aka (like the new tallest in Manchester) people from around the land will buy apartments and the top apartments will likely go for millions each. The apartments in Beetham that people have built to sell on are reaching 3 times the price they were worth when they first bought them and I recon its just because of the building.

I agree. Should the Eastagate (and Crown building) ever rise they will not be the buildings struggling to get people to buy the flats. Every one that passes through Piccadilly will be drawn to it.

If the city is oversupplied with appartments I'd be more inclined to think that it will be the likes of the Green Quarter, Red Bank and Chapel Wharf that struggle to stay full. Yes Chapel Wharf will be next to Spinningfields but where whould you rather live? And the Green Quarter? God forbid should that place ever get run down and full of scallies. It scares the hell out of me already and its brand new and incomplete.

Thinking of buying a city centre flat as they don't seem to be extortionately more expensive than the suburbs. Do u think their value will rise what with all the future flats sprouting up, I am worried the market may get saturated.

Thinking of buying a city centre flat as they don't seem to be extortionately more expensive than the suburbs. Do u think their value will rise what with all the future flats sprouting up, I am worried the market may get saturated.

Property prices are stagnant at the moment. You've got to be in it for the long term I'm affraid.

Also, does anyone have any idea which developer seems to be building the best quality flats i.e. Dandara, Urban Splash, Belway etc?

Also, does anyone have any idea which developer seems to be building the best quality flats i.e. Dandara, Urban Splash, Belway etc?

The inacity ones are nicer than most inside

The inacity ones are nicer than most inside

Well you would say nice things about one of your biggest clients now wouldn't you? ;)

Actually there is a decent write up about Inacity's Quadrangle development in the latest Urbanlife magazine. I'll post it in a new, more generic thread 'cos I think this one is pretty much spent now.

Isnt the Quadrangle up for a MSA design award? Must say something eh?

yhey are over priced at the mo anyway, so they could do with falling alittle.
a better mix of people could then expect to move in. i.e. me.
I the investers get thier fingers burnt, well thats fine by me. greedy buggers.
I looked into renting a 1 bed, 500 a month for the cheapest smallest shitty thing.
for a good central location more like 650, and it aint no pent house either.

Well you would say nice things about one of your biggest clients now wouldn't you? ;)

Actually there is a decent write up about Inacity's Quadrangle development in the latest Urbanlife magazine. I'll post it in a new, more generic thread 'cos I think this one is pretty much spent now.

Of course sleepover... btw anyone seen the website:

http://www.inacity-quadrangle.com

Another development for us to chew over.

Also gone in to the Ancoats thread.

078859/FO/2006/N1

Peary Street
Off Rochdale Road
Ancoats

Mixed use scheme comprising the erection of a maximum 12 storey building to include 239 apartments, fitness centre and nursery/creche with 230 car parking spaces with vehicular access from Bilbrook Street

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v397/jrb041067/tu6.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v397/jrb041067/tu4.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v397/jrb041067/tu3.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v397/jrb041067/tu1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v397/jrb041067/tu5.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v397/jrb041067/tu2.jpg

http://www.publicaccess.manchester.gov.uk/associateddocs/MCCList1.aspx?078859/FO/2006/N1

jrb, thanks for being such a mine of golden nuggets.

You know, I quite like this. I'm not so keen on the angled bits sticking out, but I like the clean lines, tidy windows, inset balconies, and the different finishes with the overhangs tying things together. I hope they put some greenery in that quadrangle.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v397/jrb041067/tu3.jpg

jrb, thanks for being such a mine of golden nuggets.

You know, I quite like this. I'm not so keen on the angled bits sticking out, but I like the clean lines, tidy windows, inset balconies, and the different finishes with the overhangs tying things together. I hope they put some greenery in that quadrangle.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v397/jrb041067/tu3.jpg

Agreed, apart from your concerns on the angles. I like angles. :)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v397/jrb041067/tu5.jpg

See what I mean about angles. :)

I hate square buildings, especially residential ones. :puke:

Living in Amsterdam is becoming an increasingly unlikely scenario the longer I'm still stuck here - I might well be dead before I get the chance to get away!

I'm saving my energies into composing the mother of all rants - well, TWO in fact - one huge instalment addressed to Network Rail, about their pathetically short-sighted New Street Station redevelopment proposals - ripping their plans to pieces and putting them in the picture as to what really should be done whilst severely chastising them for being a bunch of overpaid incompetents who don't have a fucking clue how to go about addressing this whole thing

I'm really looking forward to the New Street one, 1/5 a Billion? FOR THAT??

Greenery? No, stick with the Kandinsky school playground motif, it's the best bit.

I can never really tell how I'll feel from B&W/out of conext renders, so I'll reserve my judgement. Hopefully the real thing won't look quite so mangled.

jrb: I like angles too, but I reckon you can only go so far. I find myself wanting to straighten up the tallest block on the right to line it up parallel with the block on the left, but leave it with a paler 8-storey angled bit sticking out.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v397/jrb041067/tu2.jpg

We've had 10 years of cheap money, stable interest rates and low unemployment. If any of those things change for worse then we'll see a humongous crash in property prices. Especially in the cities where there is a ridiculous over-supply of apartments.

And one of these things is guaranteed to change. Eventually.

There was a graph in the financial times yesterday showing UK house prices in real terms since 1970. I got rid of the newspaper but it showed stability up to the mid 90's (with a small peak at the end of the 80's) around the rebased mean of 100 and then a 'up-the-pennines' style climb from '95 onwards.

Right now property is about 2.5 times more expensive in real terms than it was at the end of the 80's boom. The kind of property price rise we have seen in the past ten years is unprecedented in our modern history.

The key point I'll make is that this rise is not driven by anything in particular. Population over the past ten years has been stable or falling.. Unemployment has been stable and low..

All that has happened is a ready supply of cheap money, the end of the stock market boom, and lots of property TV shows!

No doubt some will disagree but I firmly believe that what goes up must come down and that human sentiment does not do 'levelling off' or 'steady slowdown'.

If interest rates nudge up a little (which they are bound to do.. nothing lasts forever) and once people believe the market is falling, all hell will break loose.

All those people who think they've played it clever with many properties on long chained mortgages will be thrown back down to earth.

OK! That's my usual rant over! This is one of my pet subjects and has been for a while! Dismal, yes it is! But I am usually right!

Personally, I've got a few pennies saved up (recently I've favoured German + Asian stocks) and am waiting for the mass bank auctions (from repossessions) of nice sparkly city centre apartments.

Personally, I fancy one of the penthouses at the top of Beetham.

It will be chaos by next spring. Mark my words!

The truth is that nobody knows.

You are right that low interest rates/cheap money has been the main driver forcing up interest rates in recent years. If interest rates were to rise significantly then there would certainly be a large fall in prices as many people properties became unaffordable.

However even then the impact may be less than you expect. Only a small proportion of properties are fully mortgaged and only a relatively small proportion of borrowers are right at their limit financially. Most could absorb a couple of hundred quid a month extra in interest, however painful.

So whilst there would certainly be an adjustment, I don't see a crash.

Other fundamentals, such as restrictions on supply (planning) and increasing population will continue to play a part. Increasingly I think the regions are seeing people moving out of London looking to cash in on the value of their property.

I saw the graph in the FT over the weekend and you are right it makes worrying reading. However I have also seen similar graphs showing historic interest rates going back 200 years. These show that the high interest rates of 1975-1995 were the exception rather than the rule, and there may be grounds for optimisim that rates will stay low.

In any case its a fool who tries to predict movements in house prices, exchange rates or shares or who constantly tries to hold off investing in a new PC or TV beacause the 'next big thing' is about to arrive.

Judge your purchase on what you need and what you can afford (with a margin for comfort), and you should be fine.

cityofgold: don't convince yourself that prices will crash so much that you end up paying rent forever. A few months can oh-so-easily turn into a couple of years which can oh-so-easily turn into ten. Rent is dead money. You're paying off somebody else's mortgage. For most people, buying a property actually costs nothing in the end, and can even make thousands. The trick is to buy something that you can see is good value and will hold its value, or is in an area full of unrealised potential, and/or will appreciate if you improve the decor, garden, etc. The ideal is an ugly-duckling detached house in a rising location location location that you can turn into a beautiful swan. You have to try and visualise the modest extension that adds symmetry, the relocated soil pipes and downpipes, the render covering up the ratty old brickwork, the beautifully tended front garden, the smart front door, etc etc. If you're also an unencumbered purchaser buying in say December you can get a bargain that is such good value that you immediately have no fear of negative equity. Having said that I think two-bedroom flats are the least safe option, and I appreciate that one doesn't always have much choice.

But property prices have to rise by a certain percentage to cover inflation, maintenence and transaction costs. People suffer from money illusion because they don't factor in these costs. While its true people always say rent is a wasted cash it might not be. I remember reading about this in the Economist a few months ago but can't remember what issue or what the equations used were, but there were a lot of graphs and it looked very convincing!

Farsight, I have hedged my bets somewhat. In 2003 I bought a flat near (but not in, and ten years old so it's built with some care) Liverpool city centre. It has appreciated in value by maybe 30% and I don't have a mortgage. The rent I get from it covers my rent in Manchester.

I agree with some of the above. If you are buying a flat to live in it, and can afford a short term fall in capital value, then buy away. If you were buying for investment however, there are much better places for your money than UK property right now. For instance, harking back to the FT article, German proerty looks attractive since it is actually worth less than it was in 1970 in real terms. The opening up of Eastern Europe might act as a driver of demand in some parts of Germany.

^^ Been turning and toying with the idea of a place in Berlin...get in now before the economy (if it should?) picks up over there. Great city, fantastic schools, superb transport, very family orientated and mad as a march hare.

cityofgold: OK noted. I've got the biggest best house I can afford, with a large mortgage, some of which has gone into an extension. I wish I'd done it years ago.

yes

Holy thread ressurection batman!