Wow, this is getting out of hand.
Indonesia's embassy in Canberra has closed after receiving a package which appeared to contain biological agent, Australia's foreign minister has said.

Further tests were needed to determine what the powder actually was, Alexander Downer told Australia's parliament.

The discovery comes amid public anger over the conviction of an Australian woman for smuggling drugs into Bali.

Schapelle Corby was jailed for 20 years, but is expected to appeal.

She has maintained her innocence throughout.

The embassy said it had received a number of threats and had tightened security.

'Unhelpful'

Correspondents say the street outside the embassy, which is home to several diplomatic missions, had been cordoned off by police by Wednesday afternoon.

Mr Downer condemned the action and told parliament that the police and fire brigade were investigating it.

He said the embassy would have to shut for "some period of time" and its 22 staff would remain in isolation for 48 hours.

Those who sympathised with Corby should put their energies into supporting her legal defence team, the foreign minister added.

"This is a matter of great concern and it is the sort of thing that is very unhelpful, to say the least," he said.

"[They should] not put their energy into abuse and denigration of Indonesia, its institutions and its leaders and not undertake these sorts of activities, which are potentially threatening to Indonesian staff working here in Australia."

Corby's case has stirred widespread public sympathy in Australia.

The 27-year-old beautician from Queensland has repeatedly said her luggage was tampered with, after she was arrested last October with 4.1kg of marijuana in her bags at Bali airport.

Many Australians now say they would boycott Bali, a destination desperately in need of tourists after the disastrous impact of the October 2002 bombing.

The Australian government has urged people to accept the verdict, but said it will supply lawyers to help Corby's appeal.

yes, I saw the news...
a cowardly act.

Just read in Kompas.com that its likely to be Anthrax causing bacteria. And now the Indonesian embassy is closed. Seems like time for us to issue travel warning to Australia.

this guy in the oz forum suggest it may be JI wanting to take advantage of corby situation to sour aust-indo relations. yeah sure, blame the indonesians again..

Yeah blame Indonesia again , I m fed up with Australia always pointing their finger to Indonesia. If they do not wish to come to Indonesia , so be it. It turns out that Australians hate Indonesia/Indonesians after all.

Because Corby is a Australian they want to close ranks no matter what whether she is guilty or not.

yeah. I think there's definitely much more anti-indonesia sentiment in australia then there is anti-australia sentiment in indonesia. despite the bombing outside aust embassy last year which was done by a bunch of deranged maniacs . but the vast majority of indonesians have no hostile feelings whatsoever to australians. If anything they are very highly regarded and befriended, particularly in tourist & business centers. but in australia....there's a much greater anti-indonesian feeling which stems from a (totally unfounded) fear that indonesia could someday invade australia......

Why do they fear Indonesia , I should say they should fear PRC. Many wealthy Indonesians own an apartment or something else , Australians are afraid that many Indonesians will come and stay there.

Don t get offended ( Australians ) I think Australians don t like Asians only Europeans.

Lol.
Why Indonesia want to invade Australia?
No point at all and never will be.

Lol.
Why Indonesia want to invade Australia?
No point at all and never will be.
because Indonesia has 240 million people with a brutal military which had invaded East Timor in the past...its a matter of time before they move south to invade the empty continent that's australia . (hehe - from their point of view)
just xenophobia really...
that's why its a pity that the events of the last few years have made fewer australian students study indonesian language and culture. Understanding of cultures between ppl is necessary for building a better future.

Don t get offended ( Australians ) I think Australians don t like Asians only Europeans.

they should realize that they're closer to Asia --at least geographically-- than to Europe. so, better start integrating with Asia....

yeah buttt they are more connected to europeans tho...since 'they' actually are from europe...except for the aboriginals ofkors...

The reaction so far has not been integration but rather xenophobia. That has been their stance for years, and it is why their entire continent has 20 million people on it. A nation that is comparable on many levels, Canada, has a migration rate twice as high.

Australia now on trial
By Peter Hartcher
June 2, 2005

The terrorist who launched the suspected biological attack on the Indonesian embassy has turned Schapelle Corby's problem into Australia's problem.

The populist hysteria over Corby's sentencing, which looked like a simple case of the media indulging wilful ignorance in pursuit of ratings, has turned into a serious national incident.

Australia's relationship with Indonesia is not like, say, Australia's relationship with Brunei or France. It is not just another bilateral set-up with another country, but a vital part of Australia's strategic landscape.

By immediately condemning the apparent attack and apologising to the people and Government of Indonesia, John Howard has tried to contain the damage to Australia's relations with its only strategically important near neighbour.

This is the right thing to do, but it seems unlikely it will be enough. "This is shocking," said the head of the Lowy Institute for International Policy, Alan Gyngell. "It is a serious terrorist attack on the mission of a friendly country. There will be outrage in Indonesia, an outrage the Australian political leadership will share."

While the official Australian reaction to the sentencing of Corby has been sane and reasonable, it is the extremist reaction that will make the biggest impression in Jakarta.

Australia transformed its relationship with Indonesia with its swift, humane and generous response to the suffering of the country's tsunami victims. But the enormous goodwill Howard achieved will be thoroughly undermined by the hatred shown in the last few days.

Indonesians will be tempted to suspect that the true Australian attitude to their country is not one of support and goodwill but one contained in a packet of poison. The truth is it's both.

The violent mood swing in popular Australian attitudes to Indonesia, from sweetness in December to bitterness in June, does not mean that either is false.

Both are be genuinely held, but neither is guided by knowledge or comprehension.

The extreme mood change is only possible because of the lack of understanding and trust in the relationship. As former foreign minister Gareth Evans once observed, no two neighbours anywhere on earth are more different from each other.

This lack of the ballast of real knowledge means that relations can swing so skittishly, blown by the bluster of media populism.

It is emblematic of the mutual ignorance and suspicion in the relationship that what appears to be the first biological terrorist attack on Australian soil should be aimed at the official representation of Jakarta.

One of the first casualties is likely to be the prisoner exchange agreement that Australia is trying to negotiate with Jakarta. Any such deal would need to be ratified by the Indonesian parliament.

But the chances of Indonesian political opinion being sympathetic to any such deal now appear remote. Any further damage is difficult to predict. It is certain, however, that this act can only hurt Australia's national interests.

Australia can only hope that further damage is minimal, and that the country has learned a lesson about the danger of indulging in the cheap and ugly politics of racial and jingoist vilification.

INDONESIA DEFIANT OVER ATTACK
2.6.2005. 09:01:54


Indonesia is trying to avoid a public backlash after a letter containing a biological agent shutdown its embassy in Canberra.

The incident, which is being labeled by some in Indonesia as an act of terrorism, is receiving widespread coverage in the local media.

The Indonesian government is concerned the incident may fan public outrage and is warning its citizens not to over react.

But already one Indonesian politician, Joko Susilo, who sits on Indonesia's House Foreign Affairs Committee, says Indonesia should now issue travel warnings for Australia.

He says the attack proves Australians are capable of committing their own acts of terrorism.

But the Indonesian government says it won’t be intimidated by the attack and will continue its diplomatic mission in Australia.

“I know that probably someone who had sent this had intended to intimidate the embassy,” said Indonesian Foreign Ministery spokesman Marty Natalegawa.

“But on the contrary, I think we will show them that we will not succumb to such a cowardly act.”

The embassy remains closed. Overnight 46 staff members, who are said to be in good health, were allowed to leave after they were quarantined and decontaminated.

Tests are being carried out to determine the nature of the white powder, which preliminary analysis showed was from the bacillus group.

There are hundreds of forms of this bacteria ranging from harmless germs to life-threatening anthrax.

Australian Prime Minister John Howard refused to say whether the powder was anthrax.

“It's being further analysed and when we know the results of that we'll be able to say something more," he said. "But I'm not going to speculate."

Australian officials are also translating a note – written in Bahasa Indonesia – sent with the white powder to determine the motive of the attack.

Mr Howard was quick to apologise to Indonesia over the incident.

"This is a deeply distressing incident it is quite appalling and I condemn it unreservedly," he said.

Foreign Minister Alexander Downer says the package containing the substance was sent from a location in the state of Victoria.

The government can’t confirm the incident was a reaction to the jailing of convicted drug smuggler Schapelle Corby, but disgruntled Corby supporters are being blamed.

“Quite apart from the murderous criminality of doing something like this and the indifference and contempt to human life that it displays, it won't achieve the objective,” Mr Howard said.

“It will have the opposite effect. It would do great damage in the eyes of many Indonesian people to the relationship between our countries and it certainly won't help Schapelle Corby."

The government has assured Jakarta it will do everything to find the perpetrators but has warned the attack will hurt Australia’s relationship with Indonesia.

Mr Downer said “there's no doubt that it does Australia damage with the Indonesian community.”

I think Indonesia should issue a travel warning, but there should be a serious effort to contain any outrage. If Indonesia's reaction is the same as the despicable reaction of Australian's to the Corby trial, then no one can claim the higher ground.

The Australian side is going too far in this matter.

ironically, if the corby supporters were behind this, they just blew off their chances of securing a prisoner exchange agreement from indonesia.

The Jakarta Post today.

Corby and Australians' anger
Dewi Anggraeni, Melbourne

Indonesians may be bewildered by the frenzy the Schapelle Corby case has whipped up in Australia, followed by various manifestations of anti-Indonesian sentiment backlash. Rob Goodfellow's article on May 31 in this newspaper has to a great extent explained what was behind the rage.

Having followed the events leading up to her sentencing, and being the mother of a daughter myself, I feel deep sympathy for Corby. However I saw an angle which Goodfellow, being an Australian Indonesianist, may have overlooked.

Following publication of my article in Australia's Age newspaper on May 31, 2005, I received several calls, not all agreeing with me. Interestingly, in my article I do not say anything negative about the majority of Australians, indicating instead, that the hardest to take among the "vocal minority" are those who demand reimbursement for the donations made to the tsunami victims. I describe their behavior as immature and infantile, making Australia come across as a nation who gives in order to wield power on the recipient later.

Those who disagree with me accused me of being heartless, as what they would expect of Indonesians. One caller actually reprimanded me, saying that calling Australians immature and infantile was not a nice thing to say for someone who has benefited from living in Australia.

I realized then what I was witnessing.

Many Australians, even those who show compassion to other people, unconsciously believe that they are superior to people from Asian, especially south east Asian, countries. When they give, and show their compassion, they expect the recipients of their gifts and compassionss to be grateful, and what is more, to show their gratitude. In the caller's consciousness, I was ungrateful. Having been "lifted" from an undoubtedly worse life in Indonesia, I dared to turn around and call any Australians at all, who have been generous for allowing me to live here, immature and infantile.

Unfortunately there is deep pathos in this attitude, because it reflects a degree of defensiveness which many Australians, secure with their own self-identity and a sense of self-reality, do not feel. Along with the vitriolic attacks in the letter-to-the-editor pages and the airwaves, there have also been those who try to point out how irrational and emotional the attacks have been.

When we transpose this superior defensiveness onto the Corby case, we see the anger of a group of people who regard the arrest, let alone the 20 years' sentence, as gross impudence -- even a kind of uprising against the authority -- on the part of those who are inferior, who dared to subject one of their daughters to unspeakable indignity. They are not familiar with Indonesia at all, so they do not know about Indonesia's pain of democratization process, corruption eradication drive, massive problems with drug-related crimes and illnesses. And more importantly, they are not aware that Indonesia has a judicial system at all, and that an increasing number of Indonesians are as educated, if not more educated, than they are.

The most important thing to emphasize is that, while the majority of Australians lack awareness of Indonesia, only a minority, a vocal minority nonetheless, show viciousness without compunction. Most, when pointed out to them, will accede that they have been unreasonable.

Most Australians have had to suffer being patronized by the Britons, often openly and publicly. And Australians have been arrested and prosecuted in the British Isles. While this has caused anguish and maybe anger on the part of their families and friends, their families and friends cannot react they way they react to the Corby case, because they are familiar with the legal system, and I suspect, deep down they know they would only come across as impudent if they did. And it is human nature to seek someone you think is inferior, if only to know that you are not in the bottom of the heap. And for Australia, Asia, especially south east Asia, is it.

It is therefore worth noting that many and increasing numbers of Australians have indeed raised above that basic human instinct by consciously educating themselves out of it. And most of these people do not easily take offense at patronizing attitudes from any other nationals, be they Britons or Americans. And they are comfortable with the idea that there are other social, legal or cultural environments apart from their own. More importantly, they are not threatened by non-Caucasian people who are as informed and as educated as they are.

The Corby case has unfortunately reminded everyone that there are still Australians who can do damage to their own country's image. And as neighbors and friends, Indonesians need not give them too much credit or time. After all, Indonesia itself is far from perfect.

The writer is a journalist.

lets see if australia responds to this one in the same way as they've responded to corby. why do i somehow doubt it... :)

Australian gets 20 years for heroin plot
June 2, 2005 - 4:36PM


An Australian man has been sentenced to 20 years in prison in Vietnam after being convicted of trying to smuggle 200 grams of heroin from Vietnam to Australia.

Tony Tran, 43, an Australian of Vietnamese descent, was arrested at a house in Phu Yen province after trying to send 200 grams of heroin in laminated photographs to various addresses in Australia, said Nguyen Van Minh, a court official in Phu Yen, 500 kilometres north of Ho Chi Minh City.

Tran faced a maximum sentence of death for the crime but the court gave him its lightest penalty.

The court said Tran and his girlfriend bought the heroin in Ho Chi Minh City, and tried to post it in small portions in May 2004, Minh said.

"We seized the heroin in the photos before it was sent out, and the crime is punishable by between 20 years in prison and the death sentence, so he was given the lightest sentence," the court official said.

Tran's 33-year-old Vietnamese girlfriend Le Thi Van was given 15 years in jail after the two-day trial that ended yesterday.

Advertisement
Advertisement"An Australian-based officer from the consulate was present at the trial," a spokesman for the Australian consulate in Ho Chi Minh City, told AFP later.

Tran has 15 days to launch an appeal, the spokesman said.

"We ensured that he is aware of his right to seek an appeal."

The case comes less than a week after Gold Coast woman Schapelle Corby was sentenced by an Indonesian court to 20 years in prison for trying to smuggle 4.1 kilograms of cannabis into Bali.

DPA

Seeing the response of Australians to the Corby case, we can summarise a few things abt Australian mentality:

1. Australians loves marijuana. Around 80-90% of Australians smoke the stuff when they're teenagers, there's the famous marijuana haven in Nimbin NSW, and a proliferation of legalise marijuana "political parties". Hence, they sympathise with Corby as a fellow pot-smoker.

2. Australians loves criminals. They can make a hero out of that common bandit Ned Kelly, now they're doing the same with Corby. Maybe something to do with Australia's origin as a place to dump convicted criminals.

3. Australia wanna be a regional superpower. Australia always want to exercise the interventionist powers possessed by its idols, Britain and USA. This is because in the past, Australia has always been bossed around and made to play the stooge, first by Britain (WWI, WWII) and then by USA (Vietnam, Iraq). That is why Australians have unrealistic expectations that they have the leverage to bully and intimidate Indonesia into giving impunity to Corby. At first opportunity, Australia will always try to show off ridicilous great power pretensions to its near neighbours, who also happens to be non-whites which can never be considered as equals by many Australian whites.

Indonesia should give back all the money and donations for the tsunami disaster. If the australians regret that they donated the money , sent it back to them. Indonesia is not a beggar state ,Indonesia should not be dictate by their southern white neigbour.

What if Corby was a native black Aboriginal , how will white australia respond on this matter???
If they like to boycott Bali , Indonesia should close their airspace for australia.

Seeing the response of Australians to the Corby case, we can summarise a few things abt Australian mentality:

1. Australians loves marijuana. Around 80-90% of Australians smoke the stuff when they're teenagers, there's the famous marijuana haven in Nimbin NSW, and a proliferation of legalise marijuana "political parties". Hence, they sympathise with Corby as a fellow pot-smoker.

2. Australians loves criminals. They can make a hero out of that common bandit Ned Kelly, now they're doing the same with Corby. Maybe something to do with Australia's origin as a place to dump convicted criminals.

3. Australia wanna be a regional superpower. Australia always want to exercise the interventionist powers possessed by its idols, Britain and USA. This is because in the past, Australia has always been bossed around and made to play the stooge, first by Britain (WWI, WWII) and then by USA (Vietnam, Iraq). That is why Australians have unrealistic expectations that they have the leverage to bully and intimidate Indonesia into giving impunity to Corby. At first opportunity, Australia will always try to show off ridicilous great power pretensions to its near neighbours, who also happens to be non-whites which can never be considered as equals by many Australian whites.


haha and where did u get all these facts from? off the top of your head? 80-90% of teenagers in Australia smoke pot, thats laughable, do me a favour go and find out the facts then come on here and say what ever u want, dont just come on here and spout anti- Australian garbage, for the sake of stirring up afew of your fellow countrymen. Pathetic. We love criminals do we? as much as you guys love them? u'll put someone in prison for 30 months who has killed 202 innocent people, but someone gets 20 years for bringing in a plant, and its not even clear whether she did it or not, get your country in order first then your free to criticise someone elses.

Don't laugh too loudly, barsby.

Australian National Taskforce on Cannabis study in 2003 found that 53% of Year 12 students in Austrlia have smoke pot. Australians spent $ 7 billion per year on marijuana, that's a per capita expenditure of $ 400 per year, more than what Australians spent on wine. This is when marijuana is nominally illegal in Australia, no wonder many Australians sympathise with Corby as fellow pot-smoker.

Again, stop lying abt trial of Bali bombers. The perpetrators got the death sentence, justice well done by Indonesian courts. Maybe Australian law enforcers are easy going on marijuana use in your country, but this is not the case in Indonesia. Corby is lucky to get only 20 years because the maximum penalty is life.

Don't laugh too loudly, barsby.

Australian National Taskforce on Cannabis study in 2003 found that 53% of Year 12 students in Austrlia have smoke pot. Australians spent $ 7 billion per year on marijuana, that's a per capita expenditure of $ 400 per year, more than what Australians spent on wine. This is when marijuana is nominally illegal in Australia, no wonder many Australians sympathise with Corby as fellow pot-smoker.

Again, stop lying abt trial of Bali bombers. The perpetrators got the death sentence, justice well done by Indonesian courts. Maybe Australian law enforcers are easy going on marijuana use in your country, but this is not the case in Indonesia. Corby is lucky to get only 20 years because the maximum penalty is life.


theres 53% and then there is 80-90%, i dont think marijuana is only a problem with the youth of Australia, but all round the world. I;m sure there is a hell of a lot of it in Indonesia aswell, as when i went to Bali i got offered it at least 30 times on the streets.

The only reason there's large marijuana problem in Bali is because of Australian tourists bringing in their pot-smoking habit from back home. So many Aussies or other western tourists who wanna smoke pot while in Bali creates the demand for the illegal marijuana trade you described (mostly grown in Aceh province). In order to fight this growing problem of cannabis use, we put on very tough anti-drug laws such as the one being applied on Corby.

BTW I got the 80-90% figure from Corby's own statement in her Channel 9 interview. Drug smugglers like her should know the market.

Let us not fall into the same trap that have engulfed Corby's supporter gentlemen. Let us be civil about our southern neighbours and hope that this minor bump is just that. In year time, we probably won't remember who Corby is.

In a few months, probaly in a few weeks this will have all died down and the dumb arse Australians who said the are going to boycott Bali will be regreting there descision. I will be going to Bali in October and am looking forward to the always friendly Indonesians!!

Hopefully there wont generalise Australians as being 'Asian Hating Losers'. It would be unfair for there view's to be changed just because a few ignorant dumb arse's who Im ashamed to be associated with acted stupidly, and childish.

2 cents.

Let us not fall into the same trap that have engulfed Corby's supporter gentlemen. Let us be civil about our southern neighbours and hope that this minor bump is just that. In year time, we probably won't remember who Corby is.

Exactly. I mean, there was supposed to be a big protest today against the Indonesian legal system. Guess how many people turned up out of almost 2,000,000 million Brisbanites?

6!!!!

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,15495313-2,00.html

Besides, who in Indo or Aus will remember Schapelle Corby when China invades us both ;)

The people who sent the powder to the Indoensian embassy in Australia are the same sort of deranged, uneducated idiots who blew up the Australian embassy in Indonesia...both make up about 0.000000000000000000001% of the population...so everyone chill out, ey?

Terima!
Thanks!

Terima!
Thanks!

Its actually "Terima Kasih"
"terima" by itself means "to accept". "Kasih" means "love" or "care"
so "Thanks" in INdonesian is literally "I accept your love/care" :)

In a few months, probaly in a few weeks this will have all died down and the dumb arse Australians who said the are going to boycott Bali will be regreting there descision. I will be going to Bali in October and am looking forward to the always friendly Indonesians!!

Hopefully there wont generalise Australians as being 'Asian Hating Losers'. It would be unfair for there view's to be changed just because a few ignorant dumb arse's who Im ashamed to be associated with acted stupidly, and childish.

2 cents.
I know that it was the action of a few idiots. It doesn't reflect even the area that they live in, where ever it may be. It should be noted that the Indonesian media, for once, have down played the entire thing. I think this maybe a new era of relationship between our countries. Not government to government, but people to people. Let us face it, we need each other to succeed. Wishing either country to fail will eventually effect the other. I hoped that there will be an increase of people to people exchanges.

Its actually "Terima Kasih"
"terima" by itself means "to accept". "Kasih" means "love" or "care"
so "Thanks" in INdonesian is literally "I accept your love/care" :)

heheh I thought it might be wrong, I kind of thought "kasih" might be very much...oops! My Bahasa Indonesia is a bit scratchy, but I plan on learning it some day...saya cinta Indonesia (is that right?)

saya cinta Indonesia (is that right?)

That's very right :love:

Satu, Dua, Tiga, Empat, Lima, Enam, Tujuh, Delepan, Semblian, Sepuluh. 5 years of Indonesian and all I know is terima kasih and how to count to 10.

The Jakarta Post's editorial today.

Racism within Australian culture
Dean Durber, West Australia

The Australian government has not publicly supported the actions of the person(s) who recently sent a suspect batch of white powder to the Indonesian embassy in Canberra. It would not dare.

In today's world, it knows that overt racism is unacceptable. To be a successful racist, one must be subtle. Racism must be hidden so well that those who perpetuate it cannot even see it; that those affected can find nothing concrete to substantiate any claims of discrimination.

Australian Prime Minister John Howard says he is disturbed by this most recent event. He urges people to remain calm. It is a shame he did not display such emotion or encourage such behavior when the Australian media and the Australian government were involved in a frenzy of attacks against the Indonesian legal system with regards to the case of Schapelle Corby.

The Australian Foreign Minister, Alexander Downer, has urged Australian citizens to "remember that abusing and denigrating Indonesia is not likely to be helpful." But he is part of a government that has done nothing to stop the abuse of Indonesia that has run wild in the Australian culture for the best part of the past few months.

Indeed, the current Australian government has supported and promoted a culture of racism in Australia. This is a government that is racist to the core. The highly publicized cases of Vivian Alvarez Solon and Cornelia Rau -- deported and detained Australian citizens respectively -- reveal this.

They expose the extent to which the Australian government's current policy on immigration and its treatment of immigrants have encouraged a system of abuse of those seen as "foreign." To say the government's behavior does not reflect the extent to which racism is ingrained in the Australian culture and its institutions is to live in denial.

Are we to think that any Australian with a face so white and an accent so unequivocally Australian could meet the same fate? Could any Australian be detained behind a barbed wire fence indefinitely and without access to legal representation? Could any one of us be told someday that it is time we went home? For the majority of people living in Australia today, the thought of being treated with such disrespect is ludicrous.

It is beyond what we might imagine could ever happen to us. Indeed, it is beyond what we insist could ever happen to us. For those who are white and speak with a recognizable and full-bloodied Australian accent, there is surely nothing to fear. But any hint of an accent or any sign of being not quite white, and you do run the risk of being considered and treated like a foreigner in this land.

These blunders of the Australian Immigration Department are not isolated and unique mishaps. They are not outside of the everyday. Rather, they reveal the extent to which racism is systemic in the Australian culture; how it has become part of the blood of the institutions of this country and of the people who support the one -- and only one -- Australian way of life.

Under the Howard government, the foreigner has become a regular and accepted target of attack. Today, no immigrant to this country can be allowed to consider Australia as a safe and stable place. Immigrants are always here temporarily. Their decisions to take up Australian citizenship do not change this. Whenever they walk around talking differently or looking differently, they risk being looked at, ridiculed, spat on, verbally or physically attacked.

When John Howard gets upset by accusations that his government's decisions are racially motivated, he acts like the worst kind of racist. People who announce their racist views publicly through speech or acts of violence are easy to condemn and control. Those who demand that racism has nothing to do with them permit deeply embedded racist practices and policies to continue unnoticed and unchallenged.

The writer is working at the University of Tasmania.

That article was one of the biggest piece's of shit I have ever read in my life. It was even worse than the one about Mandurah turning into the Gold Coast (a 12 storey building was proposed).

It is beyond what we might imagine could ever happen to us. Indeed, it is beyond what we insist could ever happen to us. For those who are white and speak with a recognizable and full-bloodied Australian accent, there is surely nothing to fear. But any hint of an accent or any sign of being not quite white, and you do run the risk of being considered and treated like a foreigner in this land.

Whenever they walk around talking differently or looking differently, they risk being looked at, ridiculed, spat on, verbally or physically attacked.

You've got to be kidding. My family is Italian, my Mum, grandparents, aunties and uncles all have heavy italian accents, big nose's, and dark skin! Not once have they feared there 'safety'. They've never been abused, spat at, or had any racial slur directed at them. My best mate, is Chinese, he has an Australian accent, but his feature's are Chinese. He's never suffered any abuse!

My family live's next door to a Muslim family, and we have talked to them on many occasion's on how there life in Australia is going. And they say its great, never experienced any racial or religious abuse!

Who ever wrote this article doesnt have a clue.

Unless he/she live's in a remote town in the middle of there desert were they havent even discovered electricity yet.

Hi All

I haven't visisted SkyScraper City for a few years now and very pleased to see an Indonesian forum here.

I was shocked when I read some of the comments about Australians on these last two pages though. It was just a whole lot more bad news that this Corby case as brought up. However, on thinking about the comments, i suppose they are not surprising.

I think both Australia and Indonesia there is a huge amount of ignorance and misunderstanding about other countries. I also think in both countries there are very influential vocal minorities whose comments and views drown out the silent majority.

I must say in the strongest possible but respectful terms that some of you guys have got it wrong about Australia. I have been ashamed of the xenophobic views of some Corby supporters. The boycotts of Bali are misguided and won't help the situation. The request for a refund on Tsunami $$$ from charities is disgusting. But this is a vocal minority - charaties have reported that "some" people rang angry on the day of the verdict demanding money. There is nothing to suggest that this was a huge amount of people or that it reflected the opinion of the majority.

With respect, to those people here saying that Australians as a whole hate indonesians, that is complete rubbish. Only a few "hate" indonesians. There is a bit of suspicion - but that is not hate and is still a minority. If you say that most Australians don't know much about Indonesia then I would probabaly agree with you. But the same could be said about indonesians. A sorry state to b in but not one that be a source of anger or derision on either side. We should all do what we can to change this.

I think this suspicion is born out of the fact that we do not have very little in common - compared to say Britain, USA or even Italy and Japan (although we were both attacked and one of us even occupied by Japan) in WW2. But these differences is not a bad thing or something that cannot be overcome, and for me personally is why i find indonesia and its people so exciting. Now, maybe i might address some of these comments individually.

Most likely, some of the imbeciles pleading for the release of Corby, these simpleton know nothing and watch the news, which of course has pro-Corby sentiment, and then rule that she is innocent get her out, and relate totally idiotic and unrelated issues to the matter (especially the tsunami). Retards with minimal intelligence and intellect who are unable to read between the lines, Corby’s father had dealings with cannabis and was involved in the trade, there was some sort of orchestration and collaboration involved she got caught out and now is sobbing over it. The police commissioner said so himself, but narrowly directed people persist to become a nuisance. Now the govt. is wasting MY TAX DOLLARS to organize an appeal for that worthless being, Corby rot in jail you deserve it.

and i am australian

P.

That article was one of the biggest piece's of shit I have ever read in my life. It was even worse than the one about Mandurah turning into the Gold Coast (a 12 storey building was proposed).

It is beyond what we might imagine could ever happen to us. Indeed, it is beyond what we insist could ever happen to us. For those who are white and speak with a recognizable and full-bloodied Australian accent, there is surely nothing to fear. But any hint of an accent or any sign of being not quite white, and you do run the risk of being considered and treated like a foreigner in this land.

Whenever they walk around talking differently or looking differently, they risk being looked at, ridiculed, spat on, verbally or physically attacked.

You've got to be kidding. My family is Italian, my Mum, grandparents, aunties and uncles all have heavy italian accents, big nose's, and dark skin! Not once have they feared there 'safety'. They've never been abused, spat at, or had any racial slur directed at them. My best mate, is Chinese, he has an Australian accent, but his feature's are Chinese. He's never suffered any abuse!

My family live's next door to a Muslim family, and we have talked to them on many occasion's on how there life in Australia is going. And they say its great, never experienced any racial or religious abuse!

Who ever wrote this article doesnt have a clue.

Unless he/she live's in a remote town in the middle of there desert were they havent even discovered electricity yet.

I have to agree with waustralia here. This article is really disturbing. I am surprised that it came from the Jakarta Post which i have found to be generally of the higest quality and integrity. But this is garbage.

Sure, there are always racist pockets in all places and AUstralia is not exempt. There may be a lot of ignorance (ie, people just don't know) or misinformation that feeds distrust. But deep seated racism, like anywhere, is an extreme rarity.

The writer says "...any hint of an accent or any sign of being not quite white, and you do run the risk of being considered and treated like a foreigner in this land" but this could be said of any country. Furthermore, the writer doesn't say how big (or rather how small!) this risk is. As for being spat on or verbal abbuse - this is cr*p. on the odd occasion racist things happen and when onlookers see it or its in the media, we are generally sickened. I see so many people every day who don't have a "normal" aussie accent that i never give it any though. If it do consider it, it makes me realise there is not "normal" aussie accent.

This article is a load of garbage. And is very sad.

:wave: Hi Guys , you re both imo highly educated . and you re both right abt that the 2 nations ( Australia aand Indonesia ) though they re neighbours don t know abt each other. One is looking to the east and the other cling to the west.
It s also a stupid thought of a lot of Indonesians to think a see that all western tourist are rich people and have a lot of money.
Only when we understand each other then we can live peacefuly with each other.

Once again thank you guys for your comment

Sorry - double post. (See the next post)

:wave: Hi Guys , you re both imo highly educated . and you re both right abt that the 2 nations ( Australia aand Indonesia ) though they re neighbours don t know abt each other. One is looking to the east and the other cling to the west.
It s also a stupid thought of a lot of Indonesians to think a see that all western tourist are rich people and have a lot of money.
Only when we understand each other then we can live peacefuly with each other.

Once again thank you guys for your comment


Thank you too for your reply Jag.

To be honest, it was one of your comments about AUstralians hating indonesians that got up my nose the most and made me comment. Sure some do - like there are some indonesians hate australians - but i had to say that this is not the case of the vast majority. Just as you would no doubt respond (and quite correctly!) if i said that indonesians hated australians.

Also, Corduroy made 3 points about australians that are just plain wrong. Hopefully, though they were just said in anger - like many of the emotional comments of Corby's supporters. I look forward to debating his veiws with him (he, he, he!!)

I think understanding is not just important but vital for good relations with anyone. THis is sadly still lacking between are two countries, but cannot be surprising given our differences. Understaning comes before real peace between people. There is no point just assuming others are good if you know nothing about them. Because if we just say we like poeople cos they are good without understanding them, we will be very dissappointed when something "foreign" comes along - ie, Indonesia's handling of the Corby case was different to many australians and angered them in the same way the over the top reaction of some (higly vocal) Australians angered Indonesians.

Hum.. me personally.. in every country racism does exists. The real question is how many percent of population that is racist. In regard of Australia and Indonesia, that number is very very small. And as always, people that racist speak a lot louder that people that is not. Because that is matter to them.

Oh btw... back to that powder thing.. (warning:consipracy theory mood) i'm curious, why this kind of attact always happen toward embassies?? i mean.. if they want to create a much bigger impact, they can attack indonesian population in Australia. eg. Melbourne where at least 30% of the population is Indonesian. That will surely scares indonesian away from aussie for good!

I couldn t agree even more more with your statem ent Anton. And you re probably right thhat among those so-called Corby supporters their are some Indo-australians who have some grudge againstt Indonesia. Maybe those so-called supporters are frm Aceh or Irian Jaya who knows.

Hum.. me personally.. in every country racism does exists. The real question is how many percent of population that is racist. In regard of Australia and Indonesia, that number is very very small. And as always, people that racist speak a lot louder that people that is not. Because that is matter to them.

Oh btw... back to that powder thing.. (warning:consipracy theory mood) i'm curious, why this kind of attact always happen toward embassies?? i mean.. if they want to create a much bigger impact, they can attack indonesian population in Australia. eg. Melbourne where at least 30% of the population is Indonesian. That will surely scares indonesian away from aussie for good!

I think it is the symbolic nature of embassies. In the case of Australia, the indonesian embassy is perhaps the most obvious indonesian target. The local indonesian restaurant does not have the same profile as an embassy!!!

As for 30% of melbournes population being indonesian, that is unfortunately not correct - maybe 3%!!! If it was 30% then there wouldn't be this problem of misunderstanding and misconceptions between the two countries. (are you sure you didn't mean 30% of the population was Greek!!?!?!?! - that i would believe!!! he, he!)

Oops.. you are right. I am wrong. What I mean was resident of Melbourne CBD.. not resident of Melbourne metropolitan (CBD + suburbs). I get that number from state government brochure. PDF file.. can not remember from which website I got it. I will try to find it again when I have time. The brochure does not say 30% of population though.. but say 30% resident of Melbourne CBD speak Indonesian (English is no 1 for sure).

Btw... I am a resident of Melbourne CBD. So I hope my conspriracy theory will NEVER happen! hehehehe

The big problem with Indonesia's international image is that our country has absolutely crap PR in international level. We are totally passive, unassertive, voiceless, and totally unable to defend our country's image and dignity to people overseas. I'm very sad when comparing our diplomats' public relations skills and those of diplomats from other much smaller and weaker countries. Even the PR of non-entities like GAM, OPM, or Fretilin way outclassed the performance of our whole diplomatic corps! As a result, people think we are easy meat and our country is always eaten alive on international discourse by everyone, such as these Aussie mob who dare to tell our judges how to make their verdict (even the president of Vanuatu dares to tell our president how to run West Papua province!). This pitiful situation is because:

1. Excessive inferiority complex and lack self-confidence when facing foreigners.
2. Lack of articulateness in foreign language.
3. Lack of lobbying skills.
4. Lack in opinion-forming "propaganda" skills.
5. Overemphasise on Indonesian cultural traits like "politeness", "patience", and "fear to offend others" which is of little or no value in hard diplomatic discourses
6. Inability to make our own thoughts and philosophies abt ourselves, so with "deference" we just accept when foreigners tell us what to think of ourselves (worthless corrupt country, violent savage people, den of terrorism, etc).
7. Deliberate low-profile foreign policy with the hope that if other countries don't know us they won't bother us.

We have to be more aggresive in our PR abroad if we don't want to be treated as "sick man of Asia" abroad, which we are not!

I think many of our diplomat lack the sense of nationalism. They lobby for their own benefit etc etc.

Bali court receives suspicious letter with strong smell

Bali (Agencies): An Indonesian district court received a letter, allegedly sent from an Australian consul general, that officials claimed contained a strong, suspicious smell, a court official said on Monday.

The head of Denpasar district court, I Nengah Suryada, told reporters that immediately after inhaling the strong smell originating from the letter, he suffered a serious headache.

Nengah Suryada said the letter, which arrived at his office last Friday, was allegedly sent by the Australian Consulate General in Bali, dated July 2, and was signed by Ross Tysoe.

The letter contained a request for a copy of the court's decision in connection with the recent 20-year jail sentence of Australian Schapelle Corby, Nengah Suryada said.

The Bali police said on Monday they were checking the letter.

"Members of the police forensic laboratory, including officers from Jakarta, are investigating the smell and the letter has been taken for laboratory tests," Bali police spokesman A.S. Reniban said. (*)

Another drug bust .....though I don't think the australian media's gonna go berserk on this one

Australian to face firing squad in Vietnam
June 10, 2005 - 12:07PM

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A 46-year-old Australian man has been sentenced to death by firing squad for trying to send heroin stuffed in loudspeakers to Australia, state-run radio says.

Mai Cong Thanh, the second Australian sentenced to death in Vietnam this year for heroin trafficking, was sentenced by the Ho Chi Minh City People's Court yesterday, Voice of Vietnam radio said.

The court heard that Thanh and another two men, also Australian, hid compressed heroin in loudspeakers in order to send to Australia.

Thanh, who's of Vietnamese origin, and one of his two accomplices -- also of Vietnamese origin -- were arrested at Saigon Port in May 2003 with nearly 2 kilograms of heroin. The other man was not tried because he suffered a psychiatric disorder.

The second accomplice has fled, the radio said.

Trafficking in more than 600 grams of heroin is punishable by death or life in jail in Vietnam.

Vietnam, which has vowed to get tougher on drugs, launched a nationwide police crackdown this month on social vices such as prostitution and drugs abuse.

Advertisement
AdvertisementIn April, the Ho Chi Minh City court sentenced a 45-year-old Australian man of Vietnamese origin to death for trafficking heroin.

Reuters

well, sure. He´s 46, and a man. Dont think people will be interested in hearing his story. Anyway, the article said that he´s the 2nd Australian sentenced to death in Vietnam this year. We dont even hear of the first one. :)

I am appalled at the negative generalisations and bigoted, racist remarks made by some Indonesian forumers here about Australians - and all because some powder (which turned out to be completely harmless and innocuous) was sent by somone to the Indonesian Embassy in Canberra. Are you forgetting that the Australian embassy in Jakarta was actually BOMBED? I don't recall people in the Australian skyscraper forums (or indeed in Australia, generally) casting racist slurs on Indonesians when our embassy was bombed, so why are you doing it because some powder was sent to your embassy in Canberra? You should be ashamed of yourselves!!

And to the person who said travel warnings should be issued for Indonesians in Australia - don't be ridiculous!!! What is the danger to Indonesians in Australia? It is right for Australia's government to issue warnings about potential threats against Aussies in Indonesia. J.I. have issued numerous threats against Australians in Indonesia, saying that our blood will be spilled if we travel there and so-forth. Apart from that, our embassy has been bombed, international targets like the Marriott Hotel have been bombed, and don't forget 88 Australians were killed when a nightclub club frequented by Australians and westerners was blown up. When was the last time Indonesians in Australia were slaughtered like that? NEVER. You don't have to take the travel warnings personally - recognising threats against Australians in Indonesia does not mean our government is racist - it is simple recognition of an exisiting, real threat. Besides, many Australians still do travel to Indonesia on business and leisure, regardless of the travel warnings.

I am appalled at the negative generalisations and bigoted, racist remarks made by some Indonesian forumers here about Australians - and all because some powder (which turned out to be completely harmless and innocuous) was sent by somone to the Indonesian Embassy in Canberra. Are you forgetting that the Australian embassy in Jakarta was actually BOMBED? I don't recall people in the Australian skyscraper forums (or indeed in Australia, generally) casting racist slurs on Indonesians when our embassy was bombed, so why are you doing it because some powder was sent to your embassy in Canberra? You should be ashamed of yourselves!!

And to the person who said travel warnings should be issued for Indonesians in Australia - don't be ridiculous!!! What is the danger to Indonesians in Australia? It is right for Australia's government to issue warnings about potential threats against Aussies in Indonesia. J.I. have issued numerous threats against Australians in Indonesia, saying that our blood will be spilled if we travel there and so-forth. Apart from that, our embassy has been bombed, international targets like the Marriott Hotel have been bombed, and don't forget 88 Australians were killed when a nightclub club frequented by Australians and westerners was blown up. When was the last time Indonesians in Australia were slaughtered like that? NEVER. You don't have to take the travel warnings personally - recognising threats against Australians in Indonesia does not mean our government is racist - it is simple recognition of an exisiting, real threat. Besides, many Australians still do travel to Indonesia on business and leisure, regardless of the travel warnings.

I too realised that everything was OK when I heard that the white powder was harmles and innocuous. If the powder was harmless, then it is now oh so clear that the sender intented now harm. Hey, everyone should all be laughing about it now, especially the two people who opened it. Maybe they can all meet up with the sender down at the local pub tonight. Hey, isoboy, can I come around to your ffice (better still your Mum's place) with this fake bomb I built. It's so cool - she'll never guess it is completely harmless and "innocuous" - she will be fooled 100%. Let me know

Seriously, you were right in saying there are some "eye-raising" comments but if you read the rest of the thread things seemed to have calmed down. It's not like Australia can say it's response to the COrby case wasn't at times racist and hysterical.

Anyway, people should get over all the comparisons between "harmless" letters and bombings, or who's more racist than the other. Comparisons are childish. We should all grow up.

Relax, isoboy

If Australians do not try to threat, bully, and racially abuse (such as that radio commentator) Indonesians like they did during Corby trial, Indonesians would not be bothered with Australian mentality as that is none of our problem. But the misbehaviour displayed by many Australians against Indonesia at that time can only justifiably raise Indonesians' ire.

What do you expect will be the outcome of Australia's anti-Indonesian bashing? Certainly it did not make us fall in love with you, in fact it only make us more aware of Australia as a hostile neighbour just to our south.

The lesson here is for Australians, NEVER try to threat and dictate Indonesia in its internal affairs. Your military adventure in East Timor only helped the recruitment efforts of anti-Western groups such as JI, leading to the death of 88 Australians in Bali. If Australia and other Western countries treated a moderate, easy-going Muslim majority country like Indonesia like an enemy country with non-stop travel warnings and such, the only group that will benefit is Muslim extremists as this justified their anti-Western propaganda that Westerners are trying to destroy Indonesia. In short, do not mess with us as you would only be creating trouble for yourself.

Relax, isoboy


The lesson here is for Australians, NEVER try to threat and dictate Indonesia in its internal affairs. Your military adventure in East Timor only helped the recruitment efforts of anti-Western groups such as JI, leading to the death of 88 Australians in Bali. If Australia and other Western countries treated a moderate, easy-going Muslim majority country like Indonesia like an enemy country with non-stop travel warnings and such, the only group that will benefit is Muslim extremists as this justified their anti-Western propaganda that Westerners are trying to destroy Indonesia. In short, do not mess with us as you would only be creating trouble for yourself.

I think you are getting all your issues mixed up here, which is sending confusing and alarming messages.

Sorry, corduroy, although I fell disgusted with the manner of the reaction in Australia to the Corby trial, Australian's will always comment - and I supprot this comment - on things in their country and in others. It's only natural. As for "threats" and "dictating" to Indonesia who was that? They were just (unfortunate) comments made in the media - they're hardly threats that can be carried out or dictates that can be enforced.

Australia's military adventure? What about Indonesia's adventure in 1975??? Why is that different or better? Our "adventure" only came after your country's permission and it was done only to do a job that Indonesia couldn't (or chose not to?) do. Ie, protect the people of East Timor. It came out of a sense of doing what is right and is this is partly why the it was such a success - unlike say our Irq advetnure, for which AUstralia's motives are not so commendable.

To link that to the Bali bombing is disgusting. Sure, it made have inflamed the feelings of bombers, but there motives are ones of racism, hatred, religious facism. East Timor was not the spark or even part of the fire - it only gave them more fuel for their fire. I hope Australia will never stop doing what it thinks is right if it fears it might give more justification to terrorists for something they were going to do anyway.

What I don't understand it why you think the Bali bombing was an anti-Australian act. Sure, it was aimed at AUstralians but what about Indonesia? Surely Indonesia was an intended target too. It was certainly a victim or did you forget?

I can understand your anger at the perceived "foreign" intervention but to say don't mess with us saying it will result in terrorism almost suggests you have sympathy for them and you yourself are giving them oxygen. If you want Autralia to not "mess" with your country - even looking like you're siding with terrorism is not good for appearances! So forget what the terrorists think - you cannot reason or negotiate with them. Tell us what YOU think.

What happen to the Indonesian embassy is an act of terrorism. Anybody that try to downplay it is ignorant. The person who did it must be caught and charged with terrorism charges. There is not if or but about it.

Obviously, the terrorist that sent this letter want to bully Indonesia into acting in a manner that is against our national interests. In this case, the terrorist would like us to revert back to the dictatorial era when the executive branch can dictate what the judicial branch can or can not do. This should be unacceptable to everyone.

The Australian media should be blamed for escalating this. Let's face it, the whole corby ordeal should've never escalated to the terrorist level.

What happen to the Indonesian embassy is an act of terrorism. Anybody that try to downplay it is ignorant. The person who did it must be caught and charged with terrorism charges. There is not if or but about it.

Obviously, the terrorist that sent this letter want to bully Indonesia into acting in a manner that is against our national interests. In this case, the terrorist would like us to revert back to the dictatorial era when the executive branch can dictate what the judicial branch can or can not do. This should be unacceptable to everyone.

The Australian media should be blamed for escalating this. Let's face it, the whole corby ordeal should've never escalated to the terrorist level.

This was a disgusting and cowardly act but I am not so sure it was a Corby supporter or someone trying to bully Indonesia into changing it's actions. What about someone who is just using it as an convenient opportunity to stir up more trouble? This doesn't downlplay it or lessen the nature of it - it is just different.

I agree the media has done a lot to stir up trouble. Afterall they are there to make sales. But, i don't know what can be done about it. A free media that sometimes causes such problems is always better than a government controlled media. Nothing is perfect.

What ever the reason, it is still an act of terrorism.

The government could've done more to try to calm the public reactions. It could have gone on an offensive sooner in condemning all the hatreds that was spewing from radio talk show and channel 9. That is what the Indonesian government did when the letter was first sent. Due to that action, the media downplayed any nationalistic sentiment and reported the terrorist act according to the information. Howard government failed to do that.

What ever the reason, it is still an act of terrorism.

The government could've done more to try to calm the public reactions. It could have gone on an offensive sooner in condemning all the hatreds that was spewing from radio talk show and channel 9. That is what the Indonesian government did when the letter was first sent. Due to that action, the media downplayed any nationalistic sentiment and reported the terrorist act according to the information. Howard government failed to do that.

Well it's always easier for governemnts to condemn other country's viewpoint other than their own. Particularly for democratic governments who depend on keeping voters on side.

DEspite the efforts of the Indonesian government, which i agree was comendable, your media also contained spiteful articles and letters. Just look back at this thread also. We should be careful making comparisons. People can always find other examples to negate each other. (ie, do you remember the Indonesian press coverage of the 1999 East Timor crisis - the goverment certainly didn't attempt to hose down public sentiment in fact they tacitly encouraged it?). Swings and Roundabouts.

Guys , guys guys take it easy , we all make mistake or let me say the media frm both countries. Let us respect each other and we both should not used offensive or racial language. harmony and mutual understanding should reign here.

Guys , guys guys take it easy , we all make mistake or let me say the media frm both countries. Let us respect each other and we both should not used offensive or racial language. harmony and mutual understanding should reign here.
yep , agreed. its no longer a 'hot' topic anyway! focus on what we can do as good neighbours, rather than our differences. cheers :okay:

I think you are getting all your issues mixed up here, which is sending confusing and alarming messages.

Sorry, corduroy, although I fell disgusted with the manner of the reaction in Australia to the Corby trial, Australian's will always comment - and I supprot this comment - on things in their country and in others. It's only natural. As for "threats" and "dictating" to Indonesia who was that? They were just (unfortunate) comments made in the media - they're hardly threats that can be carried out or dictates that can be enforced.

Australia's military adventure? What about Indonesia's adventure in 1975??? Why is that different or better? Our "adventure" only came after your country's permission and it was done only to do a job that Indonesia couldn't (or chose not to?) do. Ie, protect the people of East Timor. It came out of a sense of doing what is right and is this is partly why the it was such a success - unlike say our Irq advetnure, for which AUstralia's motives are not so commendable.

To link that to the Bali bombing is disgusting. Sure, it made have inflamed the feelings of bombers, but there motives are ones of racism, hatred, religious facism. East Timor was not the spark or even part of the fire - it only gave them more fuel for their fire. I hope Australia will never stop doing what it thinks is right if it fears it might give more justification to terrorists for something they were going to do anyway.

What I don't understand it why you think the Bali bombing was an anti-Australian act. Sure, it was aimed at AUstralians but what about Indonesia? Surely Indonesia was an intended target too. It was certainly a victim or did you forget?

I can understand your anger at the perceived "foreign" intervention but to say don't mess with us saying it will result in terrorism almost suggests you have sympathy for them and you yourself are giving them oxygen. If you want Autralia to not "mess" with your country - even looking like you're siding with terrorism is not good for appearances! So forget what the terrorists think - you cannot reason or negotiate with them. Tell us what YOU think.

Please don't be naive, anton.

Australian hatred of Indonesia such as displayed during Corby trial is due to deliberate continuous negative propaganda by both Australian media and govt through its travel warnings, military embargoes, and support for separatism. The purpose of these anti-Indonesian measures is to bully Indonesia into foregoing its legal system and took extrajudicial measures on its Islamists, such as the case in Egypt and in Pakistan.

On East Timor, our soldiers took over that country in 1975 despite Suharto's reluctance because of pressure from President Gerald Ford and Secretary of State Henry Kissingger from USA and PM Gough Whitlam from Australia during their visits to Indonesia in 1975. They were afraid East Timor, ran by Marxist Fretilin, might go communist like former Portuguese colonies of Guinea-Bissau, Angola, and Mozambique. So like in Angola and Mozambique where USA and Britain used apartheid South Africa to invade and "crush" the Marxists of those two countries during 1970s-1980s, USA and Australia wanted Indonesia to contibute as a nominal member of the anti-communist bloc by invading and crushing the communist Fretilin of East Timor. But then, after the Cold War is finished, these same countries stabbed Indonesia on the back by supporting East Timorese independence when they saw Indonesia's international PR was poorer than those of East Timorese separatists. It is very justifiable that we Indonesians totally distrust the potential enemy Australia due to this despicable history of back-stabbing.

Just keep in mind, the East Timorese now considers Australia as its main foe over Timor Sea dispute, and considers Indonesia as its best friend. This is because East Timor is now the world's poorest country with very low indicators of life (per capita income, life expectancy, GDP growth, unemployment, incidences of starvation, etc). There's little chance for East Timor to advance from that position, even less likely with Australia occupying Timor Sea as "gift" for the "liberation" they gave to East Timor. That's the bleak future for the East Timorese thanks to its separation from Indonesia.

Don't be confused, I'm not sympathetic to extremists, I am merely trying to provide you with the fact, hurtful as it is. Amrozi and Imam Samudra themselves admitted that East Timor provide very useful tool for them to influence Indonesians to their cause. Even Osama bin Laden himself mentioned East Timor many times to attract sympathy from Indonesian Muslims, with considerable success. The UNHCR chief and special envoy to Iraq, Sergio Vieira de Mello of Brazil, was killed by Al-Qaeda in 2003 partly because he led East Timor right after independence from Indonesia.

It is pointless to attack me, my cousin was nearly killed in the embassy bombing of 2004, but if you don't face the fact that your anti-Indonesian actions is helping the terrorists, you have no chance of winning the propaganda war against them. Westerners can't hope of getting Indonesia into your side when what Indonesians see is that we are treated like enemy with blanket travel warnings, support for our separatist enemies, and military embargoes. Your actions are only making our anti-terror efforts more difficult!

Guys , guys guys take it easy , we all make mistake or let me say the media frm both countries. Let us respect each other and we both should not used offensive or racial language. harmony and mutual understanding should reign here.


I think we are taking it easy. We agree on some things and have different views on others. No one likes racism or offensive comments. But hiding differences of opinion in the name of harmony is not helpful either. If we are open about disagreements and discuss them with respect and reason then that increases understanding and then TRUE harmony. Hiding our opinions under smiles doesn't help understanding and is not harmony, just fear. I think the debate here has been respectful and polite (OK, the first page of this thread had some hot comments), but i still think it is valid to hold different opinions and see what others think.

If we can't express our diffrent opinions then we should all go an discuss the weather instead (which is boring!).

But i agree, we've talked about this topic a fair bit now!! Bring on the next hot issue!!! (he, he, he!!!)

Cheers fellas

:-)

Please don't be naive, anton.

Australian hatred of Indonesia such as displayed during Corby trial is due to deliberate continuous negative propaganda by both Australian media and govt through its travel warnings, military embargoes, and support for separatism. The purpose of these anti-Indonesian measures is to bully Indonesia into foregoing its legal system and took extrajudicial measures on its Islamists, such as the case in Egypt and in Pakistan.

On East Timor, our soldiers took over that country in 1975 despite Suharto's reluctance because of pressure from President Gerald Ford and Secretary of State Henry Kissingger from USA and PM Gough Whitlam from Australia during their visits to Indonesia in 1975. They were afraid East Timor, ran by Marxist Fretilin, might go communist like former Portuguese colonies of Guinea-Bissau, Angola, and Mozambique. So like in Angola and Mozambique where USA and Britain used apartheid South Africa to invade and "crush" the Marxists of those two countries during 1970s-1980s, USA and Australia wanted Indonesia to contibute as a nominal member of the anti-communist bloc by invading and crushing the communist Fretilin of East Timor. But then, after the Cold War is finished, these same countries stabbed Indonesia on the back by supporting East Timorese independence when they saw Indonesia's international PR was poorer than those of East Timorese separatists. It is very justifiable that we Indonesians totally distrust the potential enemy Australia due to this despicable history of back-stabbing.

Just keep in mind, the East Timorese now considers Australia as its main foe over Timor Sea dispute, and considers Indonesia as its best friend. This is because East Timor is now the world's poorest country with very low indicators of life (per capita income, life expectancy, GDP growth, unemployment, incidences of starvation, etc). There's little chance for East Timor to advance from that position, even less likely with Australia occupying Timor Sea as "gift" for the "liberation" they gave to East Timor. That's the bleak future for the East Timorese thanks to its separation from Indonesia.

Don't be confused, I'm not sympathetic to extremists, I am merely trying to provide you with the fact, hurtful as it is. Amrozi and Imam Samudra themselves admitted that East Timor provide very useful tool for them to influence Indonesians to their cause. Even Osama bin Laden himself mentioned East Timor many times to attract sympathy from Indonesian Muslims, with considerable success. The UNHCR chief and special envoy to Iraq, Sergio Vieira de Mello of Brazil, was killed by Al-Qaeda in 2003 partly because he led East Timor right after independence from Indonesia.

It is pointless to attack me, my cousin was nearly killed in the embassy bombing of 2004, but if you don't face the fact that your anti-Indonesian actions is helping the terrorists, you have no chance of winning the propaganda war against them. Westerners can't hope of getting Indonesia into your side when what Indonesians see is that we are treated like enemy with blanket travel warnings, support for our separatist enemies, and military embargoes. Your actions are only making our anti-terror efforts more difficult!

I am not niave. Like you, I come from a knowlegeable position but hold a different opinon to you.

I am well aware of all these issues but you have a very different interpretation.

No one can ever convince me that Australia as a whole hates indonesia. That is just not true - garbage in fact. Sure, some do hate indonesia and many are suspicious - but this is the same about Indonesia to. I have spend enough time in both countries to know the truth about this.

Of course influential sections media of the media benefit from stirring up what you call "negative propaganda", i DON'T dispute this. But the same is in Indonesia and all over the world about various issues. (Do you remember the headlines in the Indoensian papers calling Major Cosgrove "Major Cockroach"). Please don't make out that it is only an Australian problem.

Although i agree that sections of the media try and stir up trouble (to make money), I don't belive the government does. WHat does it have to benefit? It just makes there job harder.

As for the travel warnings, i disagree with there content BUT not here intent. They are there as an advisory tool not as a propaganda measure. You may not be aware that when the Blai bombing occured the government copped heaps of criticism because there was not warning about Bali when the US had warnings. I think it is fair if the the government says they believe there is a danger, but i don't agree with the next step of advising people to avoid a place. They should state the fact, rather than provide opinion. So i agree with you that the warnings are unfortunate BUT cannot agree that they are tool of propaganda. If so, what are they expected to achieve?

As for the military embargoes, again how is that propaganda. They were as a result of the violence in East TImor for which there was enough evidence to suggest that the Indonesian military was supproting it. Lets face it, at that time, the goverment had lost complete control of the military. There is no way the australian goverment could continue military aid and coperation and i support this. Fortunately, the political power of TNI has been gradually reduced and is increasingly coming under the control of the government (an not the other way around). I think everyone (except the military!) is pleased about this!

Supprot for seperatism? Apart from East Timor, let me know where? Aceh and Papua? Australian government has repeatedly expressed that it does not support the independance of these provinces. Although, it would support Indonesia treating their citizens well. If people and groups in Australia want to express a diferent opinion that is their right which i support (whether i agree with them or not).

As for East Timor, remember that Autralia was one of only a handful of countries that actually recognised Indonesia's claim to East Timor for all those years (and many Australian citizens were not happy about this). Furthermore, it was the Indonesian government that decided on holding a referendum on full indenpendance. Australia only suggested (in 1998??) for a referendum on autonomy within Indonesia and were very surprised by habbibie's decesion for a vote on full independance.

From what I have stuied, western governments felt uneasy about Indonesia's occupation (or invasion to some) in 1975 BUT, were prepared to turn a "blind eye" as they saw anti-communist Indonesia occupying it as being better than the communist sympathisers getting a strong hold in this part of the world. Remember, at this time western governments were still very scared (even paranoid) about the spread of communism - the Vietnam War was only just winding down. Fear of communism was also the New Order's excuse for the occupation (and perhaps at the time it was indeed a valid fear).

You're correct, Australian support for Indonesia over East Timor was only a matter of convenience. It was unsustainable and as Indonesian army abuses in the province got worse, then so did Australia's unease. I am not sure how we stabbed you in the back though. We were one of the only countries ever to recognised Indonesia's claim to East Timor. It was the indonesian army who carried out the abuses (as they have done in other parts of the country), the indonesian government (actually the eratic Habibie who couldn't control the military) was the one who called for the referendum on indepence within a year (after a private letter was sent from the Australian government proposing a referendum on AUTONOMY within 10 years!), it was the Indonesian government who gave permission for the intervention force after heavy pressure from the US (this is always conveniently forgottten) and Australia lead the initial intervention force as a matter of convenience beacsue as usual the well-intentioned but useless UN could only organise a force in 3 or 6 months.

I agree, there was never any way australia could have done what it did and be thanked by Indonesia, but i think you should reconsider your notion that australia "stabbed you in the back".

As you say, East TImor is one of the world's poorest countries, maybe the poorest. How did this happen? (having Portugal as your coloniser for 300 years didn't help but they left 30 years ago).

If what you say about Indonesia being reluctant to invade in the first place, why were they then so reluctant to leave after so many decades of opposition from around the world.

I don't know too much about the gas agreement between Australia and Tim Tim. You may be correct in saying that the Australian government is driving a hard bargain. Perhaps it would be best if Australia walked away from it. I know that politically, it would NOT cost the government. In fact the AUstralian people would not be happy with the idea that this was a way of recogin costs for the work it had done for Indonesia. However, I do know that he deal between Australia and East Timor is much better for East Timor than the pre-1999 deal between Indonesia and Australia.

As for bullying Indonesia to crack down on "Islamists", can you really blame Australia? And surely it is in Indonesia's best interest if it's people want to remain a tolerent, safe, prosperous and free country. I don't see evidence of bullying. I would say in many ways it is asking for assistance (as good neighbours can expect) and actually even ASSISTING Indonesia. Generally, indonesia has done good work in this area (it is in bot Australia's and indonesia's best intereste) has been very impresseive to australia. Have you noticed that Indonesia has done a better job of finding and convicting terrorists than even the USA? The USA seems to find a suspected terrorist and then arrest and jail without trial everyone who ever met him and their families!!!

As for "foregoing" it's legal system I am not sure at all what you mean. Do you mean through it out? Abu Bakak Bashir was suspected of being involved at a high level in terrorism activities - and I think we all "know" he was. But there wasn't enough evidence to convict him. This was great progress for the Indonesian legal system BUT the downside was that a likely terrorist will probably soon be free. Despite the australian popular media's protesting that it is unfair that he got 2 years and Corby got 20, most australian legal experts have said that under Australian law Abu Bakar's case would not have even got to court due to the lack of evidenc AND Corby would have only had marginally better chances under Australian law. At the time, as now, the Howard Governement repeatedly said that both these court decisions need to be respected.

As for "anti-indonesian" activities, that is just paranoid misinformation - just the same as the hysterical australians protesting over the Corby case.

Furthermore, you seem to place a lot of importance on PR and propaganda. They have a role to play but there importance is limited. Sure there is an important propoganda war to play in the fight against terrorism, but more importantly fo every country is to do what is right and not be bullied or scared of the actions of the terrorists. As I said with or without their propaganda, they will still hate us. As for East Timor, it doesn't matter how good or bad Indonesia's PR/Proganda is, TV footage of troops and the militia they support shooting unarmed citizens destroys any good PR. People will beleive propganda, PR or spin for some time - afterwhile though they can work out if it is bulls**t.

I am not niave. Like you, I come from a knowlegeable position but hold a different opinon to you.

I am well aware of all these issues but you have a very different interpretation.

No one can ever convince me that Australia as a whole hates indonesia. That is just not true - garbage in fact. Sure, some do hate indonesia and many are suspicious - but this is the same about Indonesia to. I have spend enough time in both countries to know the truth about this.

This might be your idealistic Australia, but from the Australian reaction to Corby case, I think it is quite clear Australians in general hate Indonesia due to grudge over Bali bombing and due to East Timorese separatist propaganda brainwashing in 1990s.


Of course influential sections media of the media benefit from stirring up what you call "negative propaganda", i DON'T dispute this. But the same is in Indonesia and all over the world about various issues. (Do you remember the headlines in the Indoensian papers calling Major Cosgrove "Major Cockroach"). Please don't make out that it is only an Australian problem.

Again, what would you expect be the Indonesian reaction of being treated like enemy and having part of its territory taken over by a foreign army? Certainly that treatment won't make us fall in love with Australia or Cosgrove.


Although i agree that sections of the media try and stir up trouble (to make money), I don't belive the government does. WHat does it have to benefit? It just makes there job harder.

As for the travel warnings, i disagree with there content BUT not here intent. They are there as an advisory tool not as a propaganda measure. You may not be aware that when the Blai bombing occured the government copped heaps of criticism because there was not warning about Bali when the US had warnings. I think it is fair if the the government says they believe there is a danger, but i don't agree with the next step of advising people to avoid a place. They should state the fact, rather than provide opinion. So i agree with you that the warnings are unfortunate BUT cannot agree that they are tool of propaganda. If so, what are they expected to achieve?

As I said, to pressurise Indonesia into cracking down more harshly against Islamists, instead of using our justice system properly. The travel warnings were not made based on specific intelligence, but rather is a blanket warning. Tell me when Indonesia was not put under travel warning by Australia despite tha fact Indonesia hosted 60 heads of state during recent Asia-Africa Summit, hosted PM Howard 13 times since 1997, hosted President Bush in 2003? I doubt any regular Australian would be more in danger than these heads of state. There is no safety value in Australia's blanket travel warnings.


As for the military embargoes, again how is that propaganda. They were as a result of the violence in East TImor for which there was enough evidence to suggest that the Indonesian military was supproting it. Lets face it, at that time, the goverment had lost complete control of the military. There is no way the australian goverment could continue military aid and coperation and i support this. Fortunately, the political power of TNI has been gradually reduced and is increasingly coming under the control of the government (an not the other way around). I think everyone (except the military!) is pleased about this!

Please, the Filipino govt committed plenty of massacres against their separatist-minded Moro population. The Turkish govt actually banned Kurdish language, music, and culture while also "liquidating" many Kurdish villages in fighting Kurdish separatist group PKK. You never see US or Australian govts embargoing these countries because they're "allies" against terror and they have good propaganda campaign against their separatists. Australia has no moral advantage in which to preach human rights to other countries considering its treatment of Aborigines is way worse than our treatment of East Timorese, in which we doled out hundreds of billions of rupiah each year to support development in that province. Hence, Australia has no right to dictate us in these Indonesian internal affairs, just like we don't have the right to intervene in Australia's internal affairs.


Supprot for seperatism? Apart from East Timor, let me know where? Aceh and Papua? Australian government has repeatedly expressed that it does not support the independance of these provinces. Although, it would support Indonesia treating their citizens well. If people and groups in Australia want to express a diferent opinion that is their right which i support (whether i agree with them or not).

Don't be fooled by these lip service. Australian and US govt bully Indonesia into talking with separatists in order to allow these violent anti-Indonesian groups to survive. They also helped separatists through their Western-sponsored NGOs. Another unacceptable intervention into Indonesia's internal affairs.


From what I have stuied, western governments felt uneasy about Indonesia's occupation (or invasion to some) in 1975 BUT, were prepared to turn a "blind eye" as they saw anti-communist Indonesia occupying it as being better than the communist sympathisers getting a strong hold in this part of the world. Remember, at this time western governments were still very scared (even paranoid) about the spread of communism - the Vietnam War was only just winding down. Fear of communism was also the New Order's excuse for the occupation (and perhaps at the time it was indeed a valid fear).


This is nonsense. Indonesia never had any interest over East Timor. It is President Ford and PM Whitlam who practically forced Suharto into invading East Timor despite Suharto's fear of being branded as an expansionist like Sukarno. See the memoirs of ambassador Richard Woolcott, Suharto, and Kissingger.


You're correct, Australian support for Indonesia over East Timor was only a matter of convenience. It was unsustainable and as Indonesian army abuses in the province got worse, then so did Australia's unease. I am not sure how we stabbed you in the back though. We were one of the only countries ever to recognised Indonesia's claim to East Timor. It was the indonesian army who carried out the abuses (as they have done in other parts of the country), the indonesian government (actually the eratic Habibie who couldn't control the military) was the one who called for the referendum on indepence within a year (after a private letter was sent from the Australian government proposing a referendum on AUTONOMY within 10 years!), it was the Indonesian government who gave permission for the intervention force after heavy pressure from the US (this is always conveniently forgottten) and Australia lead the initial intervention force as a matter of convenience beacsue as usual the well-intentioned but useless UN could only organise a force in 3 or 6 months.

I agree, there was never any way australia could have done what it did and be thanked by Indonesia, but i think you should reconsider your notion that australia "stabbed you in the back".

Again, who does Australia think it is to have the right to tell us how to run our country? This is an indication of Australia's propensity to boss over its near neighbours. Australia should not be a hostile neighbour and should mind its own business. And it certainly should not tell Indonesia to take over East Timor and then turned 180 degrees and support East Timorese separatists. That's called stabbing us from the back. We Indonesians have particular disdain for back-stabbers.


As you say, East TImor is one of the world's poorest countries, maybe the poorest. How did this happen? (having Portugal as your coloniser for 300 years didn't help but they left 30 years ago).

If what you say about Indonesia being reluctant to invade in the first place, why were they then so reluctant to leave after so many decades of opposition from around the world.


East Timor is poor due to 400 years of negligence by Portugal. Under Indonesia, we doled out hundreds of billions of rupiah into subsidising East Timorese development (my uncle laid 100 kms of road between Dili-Los Palos in early 1980s). We improve health, education, and infrastructure of East Timor. Without our subsidies, we can see how East Timorese economy collapsed with little chance of improvement. We were reluctant to leave because we have invested lots in East Timor. Abandoning it means we suffer total loss for these investments.


I don't know too much about the gas agreement between Australia and Tim Tim. You may be correct in saying that the Australian government is driving a hard bargain. Perhaps it would be best if Australia walked away from it. I know that politically, it would NOT cost the government. In fact the AUstralian people would not be happy with the idea that this was a way of recogin costs for the work it had done for Indonesia. However, I do know that he deal between Australia and East Timor is much better for East Timor than the pre-1999 deal between Indonesia and Australia.


The East Timorese certainly do not consider the deal "slightly better". They think you Australians are bunch of robbers and bullies.


As for bullying Indonesia to crack down on "Islamists", can you really blame Australia? And surely it is in Indonesia's best interest if it's people want to remain a tolerent, safe, prosperous and free country. I don't see evidence of bullying. I would say in many ways it is asking for assistance (as good neighbours can expect) and actually even ASSISTING Indonesia. Generally, indonesia has done good work in this area (it is in bot Australia's and indonesia's best intereste) has been very impresseive to australia. Have you noticed that Indonesia has done a better job of finding and convicting terrorists than even the USA? The USA seems to find a suspected terrorist and then arrest and jail without trial everyone who ever met him and their families!!!

As for "foregoing" it's legal system I am not sure at all what you mean. Do you mean through it out? Abu Bakak Bashir was suspected of being involved at a high level in terrorism activities - and I think we all "know" he was. But there wasn't enough evidence to convict him. This was great progress for the Indonesian legal system BUT the downside was that a likely terrorist will probably soon be free. Despite the australian popular media's protesting that it is unfair that he got 2 years and Corby got 20, most australian legal experts have said that under Australian law Abu Bakar's case would not have even got to court due to the lack of evidenc AND Corby would have only had marginally better chances under Australian law. At the time, as now, the Howard Governement repeatedly said that both these court decisions need to be respected.

Again, you must be able to discern lip service. PM Howard and FM Downer has mentioned to the media lots of times that Indonesian justice "failed" Australia by giving 2 years sentence to ABB. This means they want our justice system to deliver verdict that suits Australian taste. So much for the so-called "judicial independence" or "democracy" that Australia was preaching to Indonesia before.



Furthermore, you seem to place a lot of importance on PR and propaganda. They have a role to play but there importance is limited. Sure there is an important propoganda war to play in the fight against terrorism, but more importantly fo every country is to do what is right and not be bullied or scared of the actions of the terrorists. As I said with or without their propaganda, they will still hate us. As for East Timor, it doesn't matter how good or bad Indonesia's PR/Proganda is, TV footage of troops and the militia they support shooting unarmed citizens destroys any good PR. People will beleive propganda, PR or spin for some time - afterwhile though they can work out if it is bulls**t.

Propaganda have everything to do with it. If Western countries continuously try to bully and threaten Indonesia, it can't be helped that many Indonesians became more sympathetic to the cause of anti-Western terrorists. What do you expect? By embargoing Indonesia and treating us like enemies, you are making us less symapthetic with you and you are creating enemies amongst many Indonesians. Hence, our anti-terror effort became more difficult.

On East Timor, look at the brilliant propaganda launched by China against its Xinjiang and Tibetan separatists, and Turks against their Kurdish separatists. these countries did much worse than Indonesia against their rebels (cultural genocide), yet their good PR meant it is the rebels that were branded as terrorists by the UN.

I won't take any sides here, but just a comment about western governments - but particularly Australia's - travel warning against Indonesia.
I actually think that it is more politically motivated then intelligence based. I mean, after the criticism it copped after Bali, I think its fair to say that the Australian govt doens't want to take ANY MORE chances and so decided to impose a virtually permanent travel warning against INdonesia (and other Asian countries in the region such as malaysia, phillipines - though not to same degree indonesia suffers). The sad thing is, I don't think this travel warning is gonna be lifted any time soon too...not unless the indo govt resort to radical measures to crack down on terrorists (Suharto, anyone?). Anyway I do feel that it is quite unfair for Indonesia - particularly its tourism industry and 'image' abroad - but on the other hand I can understand why the Australia govt is doing it.

Indonesia displays maturity in Australia drugs case
By Dan Eaton | June 11, 2005

JAKARTA (Reuters) - Fury in Australia over the jailing of a young woman in Bali for drugs smuggling has puzzled ordinary Indonesians, and given the world's most populous Muslim nation a chance to display a new maturity, analysts say.

But a series of threats to Indonesian diplomats and missions in Australia following the 20-year sentence given to trainee beautician Schapelle Corby on May 27 could play into the hands of Indonesia's radical, anti-Western Muslim fringe, they said.

"Radical Muslims could use that to focus on Australian bullying ... But most Indonesian people are moderate," said Arbi Sanit, a political analyst from University of Indonesia.

In Indonesia, where bombs, corruption and the simply bizarre are daily fodder for headlines, editors reserved little space for Corby, 27, when she was caught entering Bali last year with a stash of marijuana.

While Australian media descended on the resort island, turning the attractive young Queenslander into a cause celebre whom many of her compatriots believe is innocent, Indonesians have been preoccupied with other things.

That includes high-profile corruption arrests and a bombing that killed 22 people last month, the bloodiest since the 2002 Bali nightclub blasts that killed 202 people.

But the delivery of suspicious packages containing white powder to Jakarta's diplomatic missions in Australia in recent weeks has suddenly put the Corby case firmly on the front pages in Indonesia.

"What we have failed to understand is how Australians are thinking about this case in the last three or four months and the general belief there that Corby is innocent," said Daniel Sparingga, a sociologist from Airlangga University in the East Java city of Surabaya.

There are dozens of foreigners serving time for drugs offences in Indonesian jails, including some Australians, and most Indonesians see Corby as nothing new.

"The gap between how Indonesians perceive things and Australians perceive things is very wide ... So it is very easily manipulated politically and even culturally."

MORAL HIGH GROUND

Showing what some observers see as political maturity, Jakarta has worked hard to control fallout from the Corby affair on often rocky relations with its southern neighbor.

"We don't want to reduce and lower our dignity as a nation by parroting what the Australian public has been doing through their emotional reaction," said foreign ministry spokesman Marty Natalegawa at a news conference on Friday.

He said Jakarta would not issue a travel warning for its citizens in Australia following the Corby verdict, despite a string of such warnings from its neighbor following the 2002 Bali blasts that killed 88 Australians, and a bombing outside Canberra's embassy in Jakarta last year that killed 10 people.

Gloating was left to the Indonesian media.

"It has brought home to us that some Australians are now beginning to emulate the actions of a few of our more deranged members of society, namely acts of terrorism," Desi Anwar, a prominent TV anchor, wrote in an article in the Jakarta Post in response to the threats to Indonesian diplomats after the Corby verdict.

Public reaction has been muted, with only a few efforts at anti-Australian protests which largely fizzled out.

"What I believe is that (bad) sentiment toward Westerners has for the past few years been associated with Muslim radicals, so people are reluctant to be associated with protests like that," said Sparingga. Masduki Baidlawi, deputy secretary-general of the moderate Nahdlatul Ulama, Indonesia's largest Muslim group, said Indonesia's reaction could be put down to a growing maturity.

"I think its the same question we asked when we held the presidential election last year ... There were fears of violence and all that, but nothing really happened. I guess we need to acknowledge that there is public wisdom."

(Additional reporting by Telly Nathalia and Achamd Sukarsono)

© Copyright 2005 Reuters. Reuters content is the intellectual property of Reuters or its third-party content providers. Any copying, republication, or redistribution of Reuters content, including by caching, framing or similar means, is expressly prohibited without the prior written consent of Reuters.

I won't take any sides here, but just a comment about western governments - but particularly Australia's - travel warning against Indonesia.
I actually think that it is more politically motivated then intelligence based. I mean, after the criticism it copped after Bali, I think its fair to say that the Australian govt doens't want to take ANY MORE chances and so decided to impose a virtually permanent travel warning against INdonesia (and other Asian countries in the region such as malaysia, phillipines - though not to same degree indonesia suffers). The sad thing is, I don't think this travel warning is gonna be lifted any time soon too...not unless the indo govt resort to radical measures to crack down on terrorists (Suharto, anyone?). Anyway I do feel that it is quite unfair for Indonesia - particularly its tourism industry and 'image' abroad - but on the other hand I can understand why the Australia govt is doing it.

Well said.

PS, i still go to indonesia, anyway :-)

Corduroy, i cannot argue with you. Anything i say you just come up with another unrelated argument. Pusing. You'd make a terrible diplomat but would have a great career working for the gutter media here in Australia that we both agree we hate.

It seems your problem is not "anti-indonesism" but you own Anti-Australianism. Fortunately, the rest of the forum doesn't seem to have such deeply held grudges and can respond to reason. I should have said that after your first "anti-australian" post rather than patiently reason with you. I'm glad others at least considered my arguments. Let me make it clear though i do not believe indonesian in general are anti-australian, dan sebaliknya.

Let me just make clearer, I hope AUstralia never decides policy because it fears bad PR or a bad image with terrorists as you seem to suggest we are doing. No-one should care what terrorists think of them and anyone who says we should listen to terrorists in my opinion is a terrorist sympathiser. You can't change my opinion on this one.

Now, there must be a more positive thread somewhere!

On East Timor, look at the brilliant propaganda launched by China against its Xinjiang and Tibetan separatists, and Turks against their Kurdish separatists. these countries did much worse than Indonesia against their rebels (cultural genocide), yet their good PR meant it is the rebels that were branded as terrorists by the UN.

I can't say i know the specifics of these cases, but isn't anyone who kills innocent people for a cause is a terrorist. Do you think it matters how noble or honourable there cause is? Isn't a murderer a murderer?

Are you suggesting that if Indonesia had been better with its PR then its military abuses would have been acceptable? DOn't you think that PR is pretty useless against TV footage of troops shooting civilians and burning buildings?

Surely you don't think that good PR is more important than the truth?

Finally, you say Australia back-stabbed Indonesia in East Timor, but who's idea was the referendum? what was the result? Who monitored the results? Are you suggesting the destruction and murder in Dili was simply bad PR? Your own goverment admitted they had lost control of security in Tim Tim. and Interfet did not enter australia until after Indonesian Government gave permission.

Travel warning, to me at least, have become another boy cry wolf. If you read the travel warning, it's so wide, how can anybody use it properly? The current warning: There is a terrorist planning an attack somewhere in Indonesia. Ok, so, who and where exactly? Also, recent news have the Indonesian police complaining that they are getting no inteligence information from the Australian authorities. In another word, the Australian government have posted the travel warning but aren't giving the information that may saved life to the Indonesian police.

Travel warning, to me at least, have become another boy cry wolf. If you read the travel warning, it's so wide, how can anybody use it properly? The current warning: There is a terrorist planning an attack somewhere in Indonesia. Ok, so, who and where exactly? Also, recent news have the Indonesian police complaining that they are getting no inteligence information from the Australian authorities. In another word, the Australian government have posted the travel warning but aren't giving the information that may saved life to the Indonesian police.

I agree with the first part of your post. The warnings are vague but i think they should be made. What i don't agree with is the advice not to go to indonesia. Sure, warn about a danger, but don't give advice. Let the people make up there own mind with the information given.

As for not passing on advice, i haven't heard those reports myself but I find that hard to believe. Why would they not pass on that advice? I'd be very careful to believe this or pass judgement.

If they had specific information, then the incidents wouldn't happen!!

Inteligence has to be carried out in secrecy. If you tell people how they gather interligence, you loose your sources. That is fundamental.

I can't say i know the specifics of these cases, but isn't anyone who kills innocent people for a cause is a terrorist. Do you think it matters how noble or honourable there cause is? Isn't a murderer a murderer?

Are you suggesting that if Indonesia had been better with its PR then its military abuses would have been acceptable? DOn't you think that PR is pretty useless against TV footage of troops shooting civilians and burning buildings?

Surely you don't think that good PR is more important than the truth?

Finally, you say Australia back-stabbed Indonesia in East Timor, but who's idea was the referendum? what was the result? Who monitored the results? Are you suggesting the destruction and murder in Dili was simply bad PR? Your own goverment admitted they had lost control of security in Tim Tim. and Interfet did not enter australia until after Indonesian Government gave permission.

If killing innocents is your definition of terrorist, then we can say the separatists are terrorists. Do you know how many innocent civilians were killed by GAM in Aceh, OPM in Papua, and Fretilin in East Timor? If our military did not intervene in these areas, can you imagine the ethnic-cleansing the separatists will commit against people they consider "outsiders"? The reason nobody picked on these atrocities committed by the separatists is their good propaganda ourperforms our own.

Look at how our enemy undermined the legitimacy of our country by brainwashing people with the myth that 200,000 East Timorese were killed by Indonesia. They also invented many lies about history of military abuses in order to discredit our country's historical existence. Meanwhile, the fact that we subsidise East Timor's development with lots of money each year was forgotten. Without proper PR, our country would be defenseless against the propaganda attacks of these terrorists whose agenda is to destroy our country. You see, whose "truth" will be generally accepted depends on how good your PR is. Juts look at how the Abu Ghraib atrocity can be hosed down efficiently by US propaganda. That's why propaganda is very important aspect in any country's survival strategy (eg. USA killed 100,000 Iraqis for freedom, Australia wiped out Aborigines and USA wiped out Indians to spread civilisation, etc)

The idea of referendum came from PM Howard in his letter. President Habibie approved on immediate referendum because he is eager to please the West in order to cement external support for his government. I think this decision to set policy because of fear of bad PR and to please Westerners is a fatal error. He failed to consult his military, his people, or his parliament in deciding this important policy. No other country would ever approve of such referendum for independence. Habibie will live in infamy in Indonesia forever due to this decision. I hope our govt will never again set policy in order to improve image with Westerners to the extent of endangering the survival of our country such as the case with East Timor referendum.

BTW I never suggest you decide policy to please terrorists. Don't put words into my mouth! What I say it will be very difficult for us to convince many Indonesians that the West is our friend and ally if the West continues treating Indonesia with hostility, instead such contradiction would make it easier for extremists to convince Indonesians that the West is the enemy.

Corduroy, i cannot argue with you. Anything i say you just come up with another unrelated argument. Pusing. You'd make a terrible diplomat but would have a great career working for the gutter media here in Australia that we both agree we hate.

It seems your problem is not "anti-indonesism" but you own Anti-Australianism. Fortunately, the rest of the forum doesn't seem to have such deeply held grudges and can respond to reason. I should have said that after your first "anti-australian" post rather than patiently reason with you. I'm glad others at least considered my arguments. Let me make it clear though i do not believe indonesian in general are anti-australian, dan sebaliknya.

Let me just make clearer, I hope AUstralia never decides policy because it fears bad PR or a bad image with terrorists as you seem to suggest we are doing. No-one should care what terrorists think of them and anyone who says we should listen to terrorists in my opinion is a terrorist sympathiser. You can't change my opinion on this one.

Now, there must be a more positive thread somewhere!

No need to be pusing, anton. I am not anti-Australian, I am currently living in Australia, paying A$ 20,000 to get a bachelor degree from one of your unis. As long as Australia do not intervene into Indonesia's domestic affairs, Indonesians have no reason to feel any animosity towards Australia. I just wish Australians start to learn good neighbourliness, which is MYOB (mind your own business).

If killing innocents is your definition of terrorist, then we can say the separatists are terrorists. Do you know how many innocent civilians were killed by GAM in Aceh, OPM in Papua, and Fretilin in East Timor? If our military did not intervene in these areas, can you imagine the ethnic-cleansing the separatists will commit against people they consider "outsiders"? The reason nobody picked on these atrocities committed by the separatists is their good propaganda ourperforms our own.


Well, it's a cliche but it is true, one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist. But I never commented on the actions of GAM or OPM freedom fighters. Anyway, there have been atrocities on both sides.


Look at how our enemy undermined the legitimacy of our country by brainwashing people with the myth that 200,000 East Timorese were killed by Indonesia. They also invented many lies about history of military abuses in order to discredit our country's historical existence. Meanwhile, the fact that we subsidise East Timor's development with lots of money each year was forgotten. Without proper PR, our country would be defenseless against the propaganda attacks of these terrorists whose agenda is to destroy our country. That's why propaganda is very important aspect in any country's survival strategy (eg. USA killed 100,000 Iraqis for freedom, Australia wiped out Aborigines and USA wiped out Indians to spread civilisation, etc)

Military injustice, and the oppression of the New Order is hated all over Indonesia, but for some reason it is OK in East Timor. I don't get it. ou talk about development and into the province for development if the military does their best to destroy it out of spite whn you leave.

The idea of referendum came from PM Howard in his letter. President Habibie approved on immediate referendum because he is eager to please the West in order to cement external support for his government.


As I said previously, the Australian Government suggested a referendum on Autonomy within 10 years (australian had been one of it's few supproters re Tim TIm). habibibe said a referndum on indenpendance within 1 year!! Big difference mate. Again i ask, what was the result of the referendum? Again i asked, who burnt Dili and the rest of the province. Who was it in all the TV footage shooting citizens. Again bad PR maybe. Dictatorships live or die by PR, democracies do to but no where near to the same extent.

I think this decision to set policy because of fear of bad PR and to please Westerners is a fatal error. He failed to consult his military, his people, or his parliament in deciding this important policy. No other country would ever approve of such referendum for independence. Habibie will live in infamy in Indonesia forever due to this decision. I hope our govt will never again set policy in order to improve image with Westerners to the extent of endangering the survival of our country such as the case with East Timor referendum.

Maybe - but that's hardly Australia "stabbing you in the back". I still haven't heard exactly how we stabnbed you in the back. Habibie did, spiteful elements of your military maybe did but not Australia.


BTW I never suggest you decide policy to please terrorists. Don't put words into my mouth! What I say it will be very difficult for us to convince many Indonesians that the West is our friend and ally if the West continues treating Indonesia with hostility, instead such contradiction would make it easier for extremists to convince Indonesians that the West is the enemy.

Well, i'd have more respect for that comment if you deleted this bit: "instead such contradiction would make it easier for extremists to convince Indonesians that the West is the enemy." I hope we listen to and consider Indonesian opinion, i hope we never listen to terrorist opinion.

No need to be pusing, anton. I am not anti-Australian, I am currently living in Australia, paying A$ 20,000 to get a bachelor degree from one of your unis. As long as Australia do not intervene into Indonesia's domestic affairs, Indonesians have no reason to feel any animosity towards Australia. I just wish Australians start to learn good neighbourliness, which is MYOB (mind your own business).

I think your comments, especially your first comment and your continued insisting that Australia is anti-indonesia would suggest that maybe you are otherwise.

The fact that you are living here and can see the media for yourself and STILL not see through the hysteriacal beat ups is even more concerning.

I missed you point about studying here. Didn't Osama bin Laden study in the States (or at least his deputies?). Of course i am not saying your a terrorist, just that studying in australia doesn't mean you can't be anti-Australia n especially given some of your comments.

At uni, do you mix with Australian students or as i suspect sitting in the corner with other international students. You certainly haven't learnt anything accurate about Australians.

And what's $20,000 tuition fees have to do with it? Should i feel grateful or have a higher opinion of you because of it?

Can i just say as an Australian.

We love indonesians.
I think it is ridiculous this whole fucking Corby issue. Sure it appears as if she could be innocent, and i would like to hope so, but again, it could very well just be media hype, changing & dramatising the story for their benefit. But, ultimately, it comes down you having to respect your legal system, and that is what i do. I totally repsect how you handled this.

I am ASHAMED to be an Australian at this point in time.

The prospect of boycotting holidays to indonesia is ridiculous already, and the corby issue would never effect my decision.

But this powder act is DISGUSTING AND COWARDLY. This is what makes me ashamed to be an Australian. I can assure you that whoever is doing it, is some un-informed prick living in a run-down, low income area, who has no knowledge of politics nor international respect.

Please do not take these actions as an insult to your country, as i can assure you that any normal Australian condemns them, that is both boybotting plans to travel, and ESPECIALLY the powder.

Thank you indeed

Can i just say as an Australian.

We love indonesians.
I think it is ridiculous this whole fucking Corby issue. Sure it appears as if she could be innocent, and i would like to hope so, but again, it could very well just be media hype, changing & dramatising the story for their benefit. But, ultimately, it comes down you having to respect your legal system, and that is what i do. I totally repsect how you handled this.

I am ASHAMED to be an Australian at this point in time.

The prospect of boycotting holidays to indonesia is ridiculous already, and the corby issue would never effect my decision.

But this powder act is DISGUSTING AND COWARDLY. This is what makes me ashamed to be an Australian. I can assure you that whoever is doing it, is some un-informed prick living in a run-down, low income area, who has no knowledge of politics nor international respect.

Please do not take these actions as an insult to your country, as i can assure you that any normal Australian condemns them, that is both boybotting plans to travel, and ESPECIALLY the powder.

Thank you indeed

EVrything you say i agree with - an excellent post. Except one thing: you shouldn't be ashamed to be an AUstralian cos some dumb d**khead sent a spiteful letter. Sure, condemn it, express sympathy, expose it for the disgusting act it is, but i don't think you need to be ashamed yourself. Maybe embarassed is how you fell. I do felt embarrassed and angry but not ashamed.

OK yes i agree
I am extremely proud to be an Educated, knowledgable, open minded, and worldy Australian.
I am ashamed to be associated with the uneducated, closed minded & uninformed fellow "australians" who have no concept of a co-existing world, who take situations like this too seriously, and act in rash methods such as we have witnessed recently.

OK yes i agree
I am extremely proud to be an Educated, knowledgable, open minded, and worldy Australian.
I am ashamed to be associated with the uneducated, closed minded & uninformed fellow "australians" who have no concept of a co-existing world, who take situations like this too seriously, and act in rash methods such as we have witnessed recently.

Idiots like that are everywhere and unfortunately Australia is not exempt. Most people though when provided with the correct information (or ANY information - they normally have none) quickly moderate their views. But a few never will.

Indonesia for me is perhaps the world's most beautiful and fascinating country and it's people too. (i am such a crawler!!!! But it's true). But, i got a surprise at some of the comments here about AUstralia. I hope I've done some good.

I'll be in Indonesia in a month - can't wait.

Nice to hear. :) Which part of Indonesia will you be going to, Anton? Btw do you have any indonesian background at all?

I agree with the first part of your post. The warnings are vague but i think they should be made. What i don't agree with is the advice not to go to indonesia. Sure, warn about a danger, but don't give advice. Let the people make up there own mind with the information given.

As for not passing on advice, i haven't heard those reports myself but I find that hard to believe. Why would they not pass on that advice? I'd be very careful to believe this or pass judgement.

If they had specific information, then the incidents wouldn't happen!!

Inteligence has to be carried out in secrecy. If you tell people how they gather interligence, you loose your sources. That is fundamental.
I've never said that the gathering of inteligence should be exposed. Instead, I've said that if the inteligence is to save life in Indonesia, it should be forwarded to the appropriate authorities. In this case, either BIN or the national police. Let's be honest, the inteligence sharing goes one way, from us to Australia or the United States. Rarely does it goes both way, which will benefit both side. Instead of helping us by giving us the intel needed to crush these thugs, we get travel warning. Instead of helping us prosecute Baashir for his role in the Bali bombing, the US refuse to give us Hambali and critized us for not putting Baashir behind bars longer. (Consequently, with the evidence provided in court, Baashir should've walked free)

We should insist on being equal partner when it come to inteligence sharing.. There is no negotiation when it come to saving Indonesian and our guests lives.

Well, it's a cliche but it is true, one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist. But I never commented on the actions of GAM or OPM freedom fighters. Anyway, there have been atrocities on both sides.


What? You called the GAM and OPM "freedom fighters"? I think it is clear where your sympathies lay, with our enemies who wanted to destroy our country! I am familiar with these Australians who masquerade as a "friend" of Indonesia yet stabbing us in the back by supporting our enemies. Of course you exaggerate our so-called "military abuses", then try to cover-up and ameliorate the ethnic-cleansing being done by our enemies. Typical back-stabbing mentality!


Military injustice, and the oppression of the New Order is hated all over Indonesia, but for some reason it is OK in East Timor. I don't get it. ou talk about development and into the province for development if the military does their best to destroy it out of spite whn you leave.


Yeah? Actually if you talk with regular Indonesians, most of them would say they miss Suharto's stable and strong government. Even some East Timorese are now starting to feel sorry about leaving Indonesia and losing our subsidies. No wonder, considering their deteriorating state of their economy and infrastructure (little electricity, no running water, unrepaired roads, high-cost dollarised economy, 50% unemployment, extremely low price for their coffee crop because losing our koperasi, etc). I think as years gone by, the East Timorese will feel very sorry for rejecting our development.


As I said previously, the Australian Government suggested a referendum on Autonomy within 10 years (australian had been one of it's few supproters re Tim TIm). habibibe said a referndum on indenpendance within 1 year!! Big difference mate. Again i ask, what was the result of the referendum? Again i asked, who burnt Dili and the rest of the province. Who was it in all the TV footage shooting citizens. Again bad PR maybe. Dictatorships live or die by PR, democracies do to but no where near to the same extent.


We invested lots of money, tears, and sweat to develop East Timor. If majority of population doesn't want our development, we have the right to take away the infrastructure that we've built, because these people said they don't want it. We don't spend our money to be used by free-loaders. We were just doing what East Timorese voters want.


Maybe - but that's hardly Australia "stabbing you in the back". I still haven't heard exactly how we stabnbed you in the back. Habibie did, spiteful elements of your military maybe did but not Australia.


Let me spell it out for you: Australia forced Indonesia to take over East Timor in 1975 to fight commies, then you back-stabbed us by forcing us to leave East Timor through your embargoes and diplomatic attacks.


I hope we listen to and consider Indonesian opinion, i hope we never listen to terrorist opinion.

Again putting words into my mouth, you sly Aussie minx! I never said you should listen to terrorist opinion. How can you expect Indonesians to consider the West as friends if the West considers Indonesia an enemy? The only possible outcome of your embargoes and threats are deep hatred and disdain for the West amongst Indonesians, a feeling that is making it difficult for us to attract people's sympathy in the fight against anti-Western extremists. Not to mention the embargo directly cause increase in piracy, illegal fishing, illegal logging, separatist violence, and terrorism. Only once the embargo is lifted, can Indonesia do anything meaningful to stop terrorism and piracy.

I think your comments, especially your first comment and your continued insisting that Australia is anti-indonesia would suggest that maybe you are otherwise.

The fact that you are living here and can see the media for yourself and STILL not see through the hysteriacal beat ups is even more concerning.

I missed you point about studying here. Didn't Osama bin Laden study in the States (or at least his deputies?). Of course i am not saying your a terrorist, just that studying in australia doesn't mean you can't be anti-Australia n especially given some of your comments.

At uni, do you mix with Australian students or as i suspect sitting in the corner with other international students. You certainly haven't learnt anything accurate about Australians.

And what's $20,000 tuition fees have to do with it? Should i feel grateful or have a higher opinion of you because of it?


I am a highly-opinionated person, my opinion are not meant to please people. No amount of your personal attacks can change that. Too bad you considered I am anti-Australian because the realities I expose is not comfortable for you Westerners.

Actually I lived for six months with Australian family (home-stay) whose son smoke pot everyday. Australians are superficially friendly, they're not the type of crazy folks who deliberately say bad things to your face, but they possessed little endearing properties that can make me sympathise much with them.

About my opinion that Australians hate Indonesia, I was just being realistic. There was a polling done by News Corp, which said over 90% of Australians have negative opinion abt Indonesia.

On the $ 20,000 fee, just trying to underline that Indonesians contibute lots of money, in terms of education and property investments, to the Australian economy. This is a fact rarely appreciated in Australian circles.

Only if Australians learn how to be a good neighbour by minding its own business and stop trying to dictate our internal matters, can there be real "harmony" and "friendship" between Indonesia and Australia.

What? You called the GAM and OPM "freedom fighters"? I think it is clear where your sympathies lay, with our enemies who wanted to destroy our country! I am familiar with these Australians who masquerade as a "friend" of Indonesia yet stabbing us in the back by supporting our enemies. Of course you exaggerate our so-called "military abuses", then try to cover-up and ameliorate the ethnic-cleansing being done by our enemies. Typical back-stabbing mentality!
.

Calm down - you're being idiotic and paranoid. (and very funny now) Where did i say GAM and OPM are freedom fighters? I actually said i didn't comment on them (read my post again) and i still haven't comment on them. You brought it up not me. You say i put words in your mouth!!! Hilarious you are!

All i pointed out is different perspectives. Nelson Mandela is widely accepted as a freedom fighter. But the SA governemtn accused him of being a terrorist. There are people who say Yaser Arafat was a terrorist, others say he was a freedom fighter. Who else? Osama bin Laden. THe IRA. Basque seperatists. Chechnya rebels who blew up that school last year. And yes, to some GAM are freedom fighters and to others they are terrorists. I never said whether i thought they were terrorists or freedom frighters. (now you are going to say i accused Nelson Mandela of being a terrorist)

Yeah? Actually if you talk with regular Indonesians, most of them would say they miss Suharto's stable and strong government. Even some East Timorese are now starting to feel sorry about leaving Indonesia and losing our subsidies. No wonder, considering their deteriorating state of their economy and infrastructure (little electricity, no running water, unrepaired roads, high-cost dollarised economy, 50% unemployment, extremely low price for their coffee crop because losing our koperasi, etc). I think as years gone by, the East Timorese will feel very sorry for rejecting our development.
.

Fine i can accept some people miss the stability of Soehartoes regime (even though it was ulitmiately unsustainable and washed away when the bad times came). Indonesia was certainly easier for Australian's back then. But it is all a compromise.

It made perfect sense for East Timor to be part of Indonesia, but their bad treatment by the military made them want to leave. Again i say, what is the point of putting subsidies in an economy if you destroy it when they leave?

I have always been heartened when i see Tim Tim and Indonesia get along since 1999. i hope they continue to develop strong ties - its imperitive for both, especially Tim Tim.


We invested lots of money, tears, and sweat to develop East Timor. If majority of population doesn't want our development, we have the right to take away the infrastructure that we've built, because these people said they don't want it. We don't spend our money to be used by free-loaders. We were just doing what East Timorese voters want.
.

That's disgusting viewpoint but it is not news to me. Who said they didn't want the development? The referedum was on independance, not development. What about all the destroyed businesses? And you wonder why the economy is so bad. Fortunately, i am not sure that most indonesian's would agree with you.

I hope you don't think being shot and having you're home and business destroyed a just reward for voting for independance?


Let me spell it out for you: Australia forced Indonesia to take over East Timor in 1975 to fight commies, then you back-stabbed us by forcing us to leave East Timor through your embargoes and diplomatic attacks.


yeah, you've said that many times. You cannot consider reason - you are just determined to hold onto your opinion at all cost. (here's a little secret: the world won't end if you concede just a tiny bit).

But, If you really do beleive Australia back-stabbed indonesia, then how can you study here? (lol) Do you have no principals?


Again putting words into my mouth, you sly Aussie minx! I never said you should listen to terrorist opinion. How can you expect Indonesians to consider the West as friends if the West considers Indonesia an enemy? The only possible outcome of your embargoes and threats are deep hatred and disdain for the West amongst Indonesians, a feeling that is making it difficult for us to attract people's sympathy in the fight against anti-Western extremists. Not to mention the embargo directly cause increase in piracy, illegal fishing, illegal logging, separatist violence, and terrorism. Only once the embargo is lifted, can Indonesia do anything meaningful to stop terrorism and piracy.

"Sly Aussie Minx"? - I think you are anti-australian and racist to the bone. Actually, i have never been called sly before. The new Me!!! ;-)

So we are stil your enemy? (lol) I've given you many valid reasons why this is not the case but this is like an article of faith for you from which you cannot let go. It's almost as if you want the west to hate indonesia.

(by the way What embargo??? I think i've mssed something here? And how would it cause piracy, illegal fishing, etc, etc)

I am a highly-opinionated person, my opinion are not meant to please people. No amount of your personal attacks can change that. Too bad you considered I am anti-Australian because the realities I expose is not comfortable for you Westerners.

Opinionated? I can see that. Opinions are fine and you don't have to please people. You should though base them on sound reason and facts. Well, as for personal attacks, i don't think you have a leg to stand on. I am the Sly Aussie minx, right? ha, ha

As for realities that you think you have exposed - I've heard them all before and they're hardly realities. "You westerners" - again i think you have an anti-western problem.



Actually I lived for six months with Australian family (home-stay) whose son smoke pot everyday. Australians are superficially friendly, they're not the type of crazy folks who deliberately say bad things to your face, but they possessed little endearing properties that can make me sympathise much with them.


So what about smoking pot? I chose not to smoke it for a variety of reasons. But I also chose not to judge or look down on those who do, although i find it boring in social situations when people have smoked it to excess.

You love generalisations. Fortunately the many indonesians in Australia that i know don't share your opinion so i chose not to argue this with you. But again, why do you study here if you don't like it? Where are your principals young man? Ever heard of intergrity? Stand up for what you believe - but your money where you're mouth is. I dare you!! Ha, ha.


About my opinion that Australians hate Indonesia, I was just being realistic. There was a polling done by News Corp, which said over 90% of Australians have negative opinion abt Indonesia.


I reckon that's rubbish. Even if not, do you call Newscorp credible? have you learnt nothing about the media? Don't they teach youto be questioning at uni?


On the $ 20,000 fee, just trying to underline that Indonesians contibute lots of money, in terms of education and property investments, to the Australian economy. This is a fact rarely appreciated in Australian circles.


Mate, it's called business, international trade, free market. There is nothing to dislike and nothing to appreciate. The amount of money you spend on your education has nothing to do with this discussion. ALthough i agree the fact you are living/studying in Australia does have some bearing. People offer goods and services, other people pay money for them if they chose. It doesn't matter whether if it is a can of coke or a university education. I am glad though that Indonesians are participating in business with Australia.


Only if Australians learn how to be a good neighbour by minding its own business and stop trying to dictate our internal matters, can there be real "harmony" and "friendship" between Indonesia and Australia.

Australia never dictates - we only respond. Furthermore, even if we did dictate, who said indonesia has to obey??? Whatever you call it, neither country is going away. I consider good neighbours to be respectful of the other persons country and citizens especially when you are living in the other's country.

Nice to hear. :) Which part of Indonesia will you be going to, Anton? Btw do you have any indonesian background at all?

Alvin, my wife is Indonesian but we currently live in Australia (i actually met her in Indonesia last century!). We will be staying with her familty in various towns in Central Java. We are transiting in Bali so maybe we will spend a few days there too. I'd like to go up to the north coast of Blai - never been there - but most likely just go to Ubud because it is close and we know it well.

We also thought about a few days in jakarta. I've always wanted to climb Semeru or Rinjani but there is no way we can do all that in 3 weeks!

Where did i say GAM and OPM are freedom fighters?

In your previous post:

But I never commented on the actions of GAM or OPM freedom fighters.


I have always been heartened when i see Tim Tim and Indonesia get along since 1999. i hope they continue to develop strong ties - its imperitive for both, especially Tim Tim.


These East Timorese have no choice as their economy is largely dependent on Indonesia. They've been fooled that the West is going to help them after independence while in reality the aid has mostly dried up very quickly while the aid given failed to be used efficiently to improve East Timorese economy.



That's disgusting viewpoint but it is not news to me. Who said they didn't want the development? The referedum was on independance, not development. What about all the destroyed businesses? And you wonder why the economy is so bad. Fortunately, i am not sure that most indonesian's would agree with you.

They did by attacking Indonesian teachers who tried to give them education, attacking Indonesian health clinics that tried to improve their health, or damaging bridges Indonesians built for them. Obviously they didn't want development.


yeah, you've said that many times. You cannot consider reason - you are just determined to hold onto your opinion at all cost. (here's a little secret: the world won't end if you concede just a tiny bit).

Hehe.. another personal attack. I have news for you: I know you are not happy with my highly-opinionated attitude, but I don't have any obligation to please you. It is you that simply cannot open your mind to the fact that Australia back-stabbed Indonesia over East Timor, because you insist on putting Australia on a higher moral ground over Indonesia. This opinion of yours I cannot accept.


But, If you really do beleive Australia back-stabbed indonesia, then how can you study here? (lol) Do you have no principals?


I can study wherever I want. I choose Australia due to relatively cheap fee and cost of living. It's business decision, nothing to do with principals.



I think you are anti-australian and racist to the bone.


I don't care what you think of me.


So we are stil your enemy? (lol) I've given you many valid reasons why this is not the case but this is like an article of faith for you from which you cannot let go. It's almost as if you want the west to hate indonesia.


Truth sometimes can hurt, but you have to face up to the fact that the West has been treating Indonesia like enemy.


(by the way What embargo??? I think i've mssed something here? And how would it cause piracy, illegal fishing, etc, etc)

The military embargo that stopped our navy from effectively stopping piracy and illegal fishing and preventing effective border patrols that give opportunity for Malaysian illegal loggers to steal our woods.

Opinionated? I can see that. Opinions are fine and you don't have to please people. You should though base them on sound reason and facts. Well, as for personal attacks, i don't think you have a leg to stand on. I am the Sly Aussie minx, right? ha, ha


Laughing won't help you rebutt the sound reasoning and facts that I've presented.


As for realities that you think you have exposed - I've heard them all before and they're hardly realities. "You westerners" - again i think you have an anti-western problem.


When Indonesians have been treated like enemy by the West through travel warnings, embargoes, and support for separatists, it is just natural many Indonesians developed anti-Western attitude. Don't confuse cause and effect. Face-up to it.



So what about smoking pot? I chose not to smoke it for a variety of reasons. But I also chose not to judge or look down on those who do, although i find it boring in social situations when people have smoked it to excess.


I only disagree with pot-smokers when they spread bad health and when they threaten and bully Indonesia to free one of their fellow pot-smoker Corby.


You love generalisations. Fortunately the many indonesians in Australia that i know don't share your opinion so i chose not to argue this with you. But again, why do you study here if you don't like it? Where are your principals young man? Ever heard of intergrity? Stand up for what you believe - but your money where you're mouth is. I dare you!! Ha, ha.


I am fine living in Australia. My choice of this place is a business decision, nothing to do with your childish perception of "integrity". Anyways, I have my opinion which again do not need to conform to your expectations.


I reckon that's rubbish. Even if not, do you call Newscorp credible? have you learnt nothing about the media? Don't they teach youto be questioning at uni?

From the public reaction to Corby case, the poll seems credible.



Mate, it's called business, international trade, free market. There is nothing to dislike and nothing to appreciate. The amount of money you spend on your education has nothing to do with this discussion. ALthough i agree the fact you are living/studying in Australia does have some bearing. People offer goods and services, other people pay money for them if they chose. It doesn't matter whether if it is a can of coke or a university education. I am glad though that Indonesians are participating in business with Australia.


I am happy you married an Indonesian. We need more half-Caucasian Indonesians to improve our cultural diversity.


Furthermore, even if we did dictate, who said indonesia has to obey???

Australia threatens Indonesia with travel warnings and embargoes that is significantly detrimental to Indonesian interests. What you said is like saying Australia was dictating Indonesia by pulling a gun on our throat, but why Indonesia should obey this gun-toting bully? The bully Australia is not a good neighbour due to their constant attempts to intervene into our domestic affairs. Only when this dictating habit stopped, will there be good relations between Indonesia and Australia.

"Sound reasoning"? I hope you are not studying law.


Laughing won't help you rebutt the sound reasoning and facts that I've presented.



When Indonesians have been treated like enemy by the West through travel warnings, embargoes, and support for separatists, it is just natural many Indonesians developed anti-Western attitude. Don't confuse cause and effect. Face-up to it.




I only disagree with pot-smokers when they spread bad health and when they threaten and bully Indonesia to free one of their fellow pot-smoker Corby.



I am fine living in Australia. My choice of this place is a business decision, nothing to do with your childish perception of "integrity". Anyways, I have my opinion which again do not need to conform to your expectations.



From the public reaction to Corby case, the poll seems credible.




I am happy you married an Indonesian. We need more half-Caucasian Indonesians to improve our cultural diversity.



Australia threatens Indonesia with travel warnings and embargoes that is significantly detrimental to Indonesian interests. What you said is like saying Australia was dictating Indonesia by pulling a gun on our throat, but why Indonesia should obey this gun-toting bully? The bully Australia is not a good neighbour due to their constant attempts to intervene into our domestic affairs. Only when this dictating habit stopped, will there be good relations between Indonesia and Australia.

Why don't you answer my specific questions/points instead of just bringing up new points to support your repeated viewpoints.

PLease let me know where i said GAM and OPM were freedom fighters. Or can yu not concede that you misunderstood me amid your wild accusations? I was trying to make a pint about perceptions. All i pointed out was to some they are freedom fighters and to some they are terrorists. I never wanted to disucss whether they actually were terrorist or otherwise. It's the same all over the world - can you not see that?

Please acknowledge that i never said they were freedom fighters. Or is that too hard?

In your previous post:

These East Timorese have no choice as their economy is largely dependent on Indonesia. They've been fooled that the West is going to help them after independence while in reality the aid has mostly dried up very quickly while the aid given failed to be used efficiently to improve East Timorese economy.

.

Whatever you think.


They did by attacking Indonesian teachers who tried to give them education, attacking Indonesian health clinics that tried to improve their health, or damaging bridges Indonesians built for them. Obviously they didn't want development.
.

Just cos they wanted indpendence donesn't mean they don't want development. To say they didn't is stupid. And, what benefit was it to the militia and part of the military in causing the destruction? Did they get the development subsidies back?

And in voting for independance did they want a bullet in the head or theri home burnt? Please answer this time. YOur teacher story is yet another new anecdote.

What about your statement "If majority of population doesn't want our development, we have the right to take away the infrastructure that we've built, because these people said they don't want it." ? I asked you whether this means it was OK to burn homes and business and even murder becuase they voted to leave indonesia. Why do you ignore my question and just add a new one? If you'd like to me to consider yours, please show that you considered mine.



Hehe.. another personal attack.
From a "sly aussie" and one of "you westerners" ;-)

I have news for you: I know you are not happy with my highly-opinionated attitude, but I don't have any obligation to please you.


News to me? No that is not news to me, you did not have to tell me,i guessed my own feelings all by myself. In fact i even said you are entitled to your opinion nor did you have to please me (maybe it was the next post).


It is you that simply cannot open your mind to the fact that Australia back-stabbed Indonesia over East Timor,


It's because we didn't back stab you. But of course we knew it wouldn't please Indonesia. Pleasing Indonesia is very important to Australia, but it is not the number one aim of Australia, and you will continue to be dissapointed if you continute to expect this. Actually, this is the crux of this whole discussion.


because you insist on putting Australia on a higher moral ground over Indonesia.

I am sorry - when did i say that Australia stood on higher moral ground than indonesia? The answer is never. I have always said "sections of.." or words to that effect. I have also said where i agree with you or said "fair enough" or (not often - but it is there in my posts). I have also attributed criticism to Australia/Australian's where i thought it was due (Corby supporters, 2nd Iraq war, admitting there was at times suspision of Indonesia). This is hardly taking the high moral ground!

But if we are to talk about morals, I can say i disagree with you morally if what you are saying is that East Timor deserved the destruction in 1999.


This opinion of yours I cannot accept.


I can see that.




I can study wherever I want.

Of course you can! And i can have opinions on your integrity in doing so. Right?


I choose Australia due to relatively cheap fee and cost of living. It's business decision, nothing to do with principals.

Yup - clearly.


I don't care what you think of me.
.

Good for you.

But i care what AUstralians think about Indonesia, and what Indonesian's think about Australia, especially if these opinions are not based on truth. I don't believe being good neighbours is about smiling and exchanging pleasentries in the name of "harmony". THis is easier in the short term but is fake and will lead to dissappointment. It needs the much harder road of respectfully being honest and seeking to understand one another. Fortunately i think our two countries have belatedly chosen to take this path in the last few years (with the exception of a few who i believe will prove to be ineffectual).



Truth sometimes can hurt, but you have to face up to the fact that the West has been treating Indonesia like enemy.


Yes, truth can sometimes hurt but I'm not hurt. I can't find much truth in what your saying You gotta do better than that.

I admit indonesia has been treated with suspision by some people in the west but not in general. And certainly not as an enemy. Fortunately your incorrect belief that we consider you are enemy is a minority view in Australia and Indonesia.


The military embargo that stopped our navy from effectively stopping piracy and illegal fishing and preventing effective border patrols that give opportunity for Malaysian illegal loggers to steal our woods.

I think you mean that Australia stopped military cooperation and aid with the Indonesian military after the East TImor disaster. Correct? If so, how does this cause piracy, etc? Do you mean that th indonesian military was dependant on the aid? Let me know cos i your point isn't clear here.

Australia threatens Indonesia with travel warnings and embargoes that is significantly detrimental to Indonesian interests. What you said is like saying Australia was dictating Indonesia by pulling a gun on our throat, but why Indonesia should obey this gun-toting bully? The bully Australia is not a good neighbour due to their constant attempts to intervene into our domestic affairs. Only when this dictating habit stopped, will there be good relations between Indonesia and Australia.

Huh??? I'm not disagreeing with this - i can't understand it!

The only bit i do understand is the bits that you have repeated over and over while completely ignoring my comments.

What embargo?

Once and for all, i agree travel warnings don't help indonesia but they are for Australians. They are not intended to send a message but there will always be people who like to interpret anti-indonesian messages from them. If people do interpret them as being hostile to indonesia, that is very regretable, BUT, that is not a consideration that can influence the warnings.


Having said all that i don't agree with there content. The goverment should state and describe the risk if they think one exists, but i don't think they should ever advise against going to a country. People have to make up there own mins.

One more time for any dummies - travel warnings are not a method to antagonise indonesia, and although it is clear that they are not helpful to indonesia, that is not the aim! I can't see why this is so difficult.

I've never said that the gathering of inteligence should be exposed. Instead, I've said that if the inteligence is to save life in Indonesia, it should be forwarded to the appropriate authorities. In this case, either BIN or the national police. Let's be honest, the inteligence sharing goes one way, from us to Australia or the United States. Rarely does it goes both way, which will benefit both side. Instead of helping us by giving us the intel needed to crush these thugs, we get travel warning. Instead of helping us prosecute Baashir for his role in the Bali bombing, the US refuse to give us Hambali and critized us for not putting Baashir behind bars longer. (Consequently, with the evidence provided in court, Baashir should've walked free)

We should insist on being equal partner when it come to inteligence sharing.. There is no negotiation when it come to saving Indonesian and our guests lives.

yeah - i know about Hambali being held in the US. Did indonesian officials get access to him? I hope so.

Of course intelligence should be shared equally. Colectively we always know more together than individually. With intelligence 1 + 1 = 3.

Why don't you answer my specific questions/points instead of just bringing up new points to support your repeated viewpoints.

PLease let me know where i said GAM and OPM were freedom fighters. Or can yu not concede that you misunderstood me amid your wild accusations? I was trying to make a pint about perceptions.


Don't try to deceive me. It is very clear that you referred to GAM and OPM terrorists as "freedom fighters" at your post yesterday at 05:26, I quote:

But I never commented on the actions of GAM or OPM freedom fighters




Just cos they wanted indpendence donesn't mean they don't want development. To say they didn't is stupid. And, what benefit was it to the militia and part of the military in causing the destruction? Did they get the development subsidies back?

Unfortunately this is the case. Throughout the period when East Timor was part of Indonesia, there was lots of attacks on the teachers sent from other parts of Indonesia, there are arson attacks against Indonesian-bulit schools and health clinics, kidnappings of Indonesian doctors who tried to improve thier health condition. What other way to describe these stupid attacks on development projects by East Timorese but to say they did not want development?

What about your statement "If majority of population doesn't want our development, we have the right to take away the infrastructure that we've built, because these people said they don't want it." ? I asked you whether this means it was OK to burn homes and business and even murder becuase they voted to leave indonesia. Why do you ignore my question and just add a new one? If you'd like to me to consider yours, please show that you considered mine.


The only homes that were burnt are those built by Indonesians, its a case of burning your own property. Imagine if you have lived, workes, and toiled in East Timor for years then suddenly you were told to leave. Naturally, many Indonesians were not able to accept having to give their life's work to the people that are about to throw them away. Hence, they rather destroy their lifetime's work rather than giving it to the enemy. We see this in Moscow 1812, Bandung 1946, and Dili 1999. The killings are from both sides, the militia and the separatists. The place was a conflict zone, for chrissakes. There's bound to be lives lost in these kinds of situation. To blame the deaths totally to Indonesia is totally unfair.



News to me? No that is not news to me, you did not have to tell me,i guessed my own feelings all by myself. In fact i even said you are entitled to your opinion nor did you have to please me (maybe it was the next post).


Please, it is clear you personally attacked me to force me to change my opinions to suit your expectations. Don't be so dictatorial.


It's because we didn't back stab you. But of course we knew it wouldn't please Indonesia. Pleasing Indonesia is very important to Australia, but it is not the number one aim of Australia, and you will continue to be dissapointed if you continute to expect this. Actually, this is the crux of this whole discussion.


Unfortunately, the fact of Australian back-stabbing is undeniable. It is undeniable that Australia and USA told Suharto to invade East Timor. It is undeniable that referendum is due to extreme pressure from USA and Australia on Habibie. This is none other but the worst betrayal back-stabbing Indonesia has experienced in its history. No other country but Australia has done such despicable back-stabbing on Indonesia.


I am sorry - when did i say that Australia stood on higher moral ground than indonesia? The answer is never. I have always said "sections of.." or words to that effect. I have also said where i agree with you or said "fair enough" or (not often - but it is there in my posts). I have also attributed criticism to Australia/Australian's where i thought it was due (Corby supporters, 2nd Iraq war, admitting there was at times suspision of Indonesia). This is hardly taking the high moral ground!


I was referring to Australian back-stabbing Indonesia over East Timor, which you refuse to admit because Australians had made a myth out of the whole fracas that Australians displayed high moral behaviour in supporting East Timorese independence, while the fact is it is Australia herself that forced East Timor into becoming a part of Indonesia in 1975.




But i care what AUstralians think about Indonesia, and what Indonesian's think about Australia, especially if these opinions are not based on truth. I don't believe being good neighbours is about smiling and exchanging pleasentries in the name of "harmony". THis is easier in the short term but is fake and will lead to dissappointment. It needs the much harder road of respectfully being honest and seeking to understand one another. Fortunately i think our two countries have belatedly chosen to take this path in the last few years (with the exception of a few who i believe will prove to be ineffectual).


If you really care abt Indonesian opinions of Australia, you will tell your government to stop your military embargo and stop trying to tell Indonesian govt how to run our internal affairs. It is incredulous that Australia failed to understand that Indonesia absolutely disdains foreign attempts to dictate our internal policies.



I think you mean that Australia stopped military cooperation and aid with the Indonesian military after the East TImor disaster. Correct? If so, how does this cause piracy, etc? Do you mean that th indonesian military was dependant on the aid? Let me know cos i your point isn't clear here.

You are helping to paralyse our navy's fleet and our air force' squadrons, giving free hand for pirates, separatists, terrorists, illgeal fishers, and illegal loggers to commit their criminal deeds. Piracy and terrorism is not only Indonesian concern, but also international concern. I fyou want us to act decisively against pirates and terrorists, you must untie our hands and lift all embargo against our military. Remember, the spare part embargo means we were unable to provide timely first-aid to tsunami-hit Aceh. The embargo killed Acehnese victims of tsunami!

Don't try to deceive me. It is very clear that you referred to GAM and OPM terrorists as "freedom fighters" at your post yesterday at 05:26, I quote:
"Originally Posted by Anton
But I never commented on the actions of GAM or OPM freedom fighters"
"


Give me a break. Is that what your fuss was about? That is pathetic - i initially suggested that people who kill innocents for any cause no matter how noble or good can be considered terrorists. So even by my logic "GAM or OPM freedom fighters" who murder innocents are terrrorists.

My full quote looks a lot different does it not?:
"Well, it's a cliche but it is true, one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist. But I never commented on the actions of GAM or OPM freedom fighters. Anyway, there have been atrocities on both sides."

From that quote how can you say that i am an enemy of indonesia and wish it's destruction? That is so stupid it is funny.

Ie, your quote followed:
" What? You called the GAM and OPM "freedom fighters"? I think it is clear where your sympathies lay, with our enemies who wanted to destroy our country! I am familiar with these Australians who masquerade as a "friend" of Indonesia yet stabbing us in the back by supporting our enemies. Of course you exaggerate our so-called "military abuses", then try to cover-up and ameliorate the ethnic-cleansing being done by our enemies. Typical back-stabbing mentality!"

And you acuse me of putting words your mouth. Talk about parnoid.

GAM and OPM certainly see themselves as freedom fighters and you call them terrorists. So, my point about perceptions (or PR as you call it) is clear as day. Where's the problem? I wasn't taking sides nor was I expecting you to take sides.

If i was to accept your stance on "MYOB", then aren't travel warnings and embargos Australia's own business? It would have to work both ways, right? Shouldn't we be allowed to have Ned Kelly as a hero without you "dictating" to us in this forum? Stupid isn't it? Of course, we would expect Indonesia to express an opinion, we would consider it and act on it as we seem fit. Indonesia does and should do the same.

Dictating means that the one being dictated to does what they are told - so i think you have used the wrong word. Maybe that is why i think what you say is nonsense.

By the way, i ask again, what embargo? You just started talking - again - about piracy, etc.

LOL, this discussion is getting nowhere, although I enjoy the debate but lets get back to the original topic of this thread folks.....:)

cheers

LOL, this discussion is getting nowhere, although I enjoy the debate but lets get back to the original topic of this thread folks.....:)

cheers

Um, what was the original topic of the thread????

(kidding - i think i've said more than my bit)

;)

yeah - i know about Hambali being held in the US. Did indonesian officials get access to him? I hope so.

Of course intelligence should be shared equally. Colectively we always know more together than individually. With intelligence 1 + 1 = 3.
The US told the Indonesian government that they will not let any Indonesian intel people interogate Hambali. Instead, the US told Indonesia that we should give the US the questions and they'll asked Hambali about it. So much for being an equal partner in the so called war on terrorism.

I too realised that everything was OK when I heard that the white powder was harmles and innocuous. If the powder was harmless, then it is now oh so clear that the sender intented now harm. Hey, everyone should all be laughing about it now, especially the two people who opened it. Maybe they can all meet up with the sender down at the local pub tonight. Hey, isoboy, can I come around to your ffice (better still your Mum's place) with this fake bomb I built. It's so cool - she'll never guess it is completely harmless and "innocuous" - she will be fooled 100%. Let me know

Seriously, you were right in saying there are some "eye-raising" comments but if you read the rest of the thread things seemed to have calmed down. It's not like Australia can say it's response to the COrby case wasn't at times racist and hysterical.

Anyway, people should get over all the comparisons between "harmless" letters and bombings, or who's more racist than the other. Comparisons are childish. We should all grow up.

Anton,

You've missed my point completely here. My point was not that because the powder was harmless, it was not terrorism. The point was that terrorism was also perpetrated against the Australian Embassy in Indonesia (and yes, it was more serious - people were killed and the embassy was damaged), YET the reaction in Australia was not hostile towards Indonesia. Australians understood that the attack was carried out by individuals, not by Indonesia as a whole. I am disappointed that some people here cannot make the same distinction in the case of the terrorist act inflicted upon the Indonesian Embassy in Australia.

As for you, Corduroy, you have revealed yourself to be a deeply racist, bigoted individual. And your points about Australia "keeping out" of Indonesian affairs do not apply in this case. We are talking about an Australian citizen, Schapelle Corby, here - if an Australian citizen is not Australia's business, then what is? Furthermore, your claims that Australians hate Indonesians are deeply offensive. Obviously our help after the tsunami disaster and the second eathquake count for nothing in your racist little mind.

Anton,

You've missed my point completely here. My point was not that because the powder was harmless, it was not terrorism. The point was that terrorism was also perpetrated against the Australian Embassy in Indonesia (and yes, it was more serious - people were killed and the embassy was damaged), YET the reaction in Australia was not hostile towards Indonesia. Australians understood that the attack was carried out by individuals, not by Indonesia as a whole. I am disappointed that some people here cannot make the same distinction in the case of the terrorist act inflicted upon the Indonesian Embassy in Australia.



OK - i accept you can still see the seriousness of it. Maybe it is is about 5% less serious since it wasn't, as we found LATER, physically harmful. ;)

Perhaps the difference between the attacks on the two embassies is that in the case of the Jakarta attack, it is almost without any doubt violent religious facists (actually, facists would be a compliment!) that we have become all too familiar with. Yet with the letter scare, we have no idea who it was. We know what these most hateful of hateful people are like and we know they don't represent indonesia. Yet the identity of the letter scare perpertrator is not so clear. The obvious suspect is a deranged Corby supporter, yet even that doens't make complete sense. After the first letter, her team made it so clear that they too condemned the action and it was already clear to everyone that it wouldn't help - probably even harm her situation. YET, still more letters were sent - another to the embassy, another addressed to Alexander Downer. It doesn't make any sense. Even if we accept it was a Corby supporter, we have no idea who or what is really going through there mind. They are a big unknown. Yet with the bombers in Jakarta, it is clear who we are dealing with - even if they are in hiding now, their colleagues have certainly been open about who they are and what they want to do.

In summary, in one case it is clear who the perpertrators are and they become the focus of Indonesian and Australian anger. In the other, it is not clear who to focus anger at.

And as for the anger in this forum - i think it is clear that most were just expresssing anger in the heat of the moment - it's not like there haven't been a bit of that in both countries. Most people calm down - but a small number (again in both countries) never will and probably enjoy seeing these incidents fostering more suspicion, and which they see as justifying ther own bigoted views which they hold on to like their very life depends on it.

Anton,

You've missed my point completely here. My point was not that because the powder was harmless, it was not terrorism. The point was that terrorism was also perpetrated against the Australian Embassy in Indonesia (and yes, it was more serious - people were killed and the embassy was damaged), YET the reaction in Australia was not hostile towards Indonesia. Australians understood that the attack was carried out by individuals, not by Indonesia as a whole. I am disappointed that some people here cannot make the same distinction in the case of the terrorist act inflicted upon the Indonesian Embassy in Australia.

As for you, Corduroy, you have revealed yourself to be a deeply racist, bigoted individual. And your points about Australia "keeping out" of Indonesian affairs do not apply in this case. We are talking about an Australian citizen, Schapelle Corby, here - if an Australian citizen is not Australia's business, then what is? Furthermore, your claims that Australians hate Indonesians are deeply offensive. Obviously our help after the tsunami disaster and the second eathquake count for nothing in your racist little mind.

Calm down, isoboy. When did I ever mention abt the embassy powder attack? You consider me "racist" because my exposing of Australian aggression against Indonesia is highly uncomfortable with you. These points indicate high propensity of Australia to interfere in Indonesian affairs. It is this attitude that is the main stumbling block in Australia-Indonesia bilateral relations. I am giving you the reasons why there are underlying anti-Australian feeling in many Indonesians to help you understand our point of view. As anton said, being good neighbours does not mean that Indonesians must cover up their grieviances with Australia, but we have to be open and honest with each other when there are problems between us. Most of these problems came from Australian side, since Australian govt have several anti-Indonesian policies that hurt Indonesian interests and make 90% of Australians hate Indonesia:

1. Unfair blanket travel warnings
2. Military embargoes
3. Support for Indonesia's enemy the separatists

As for the tsunami aid, you see how easily the Australians try to actually boycott giving aid to Indonesia in order to bully and threat Indonesia into releasing Corby. I found this Australian attempt to use tsunami aid as tool of intimidation absolutely disgusting. When Australians start launching such appauling anti-Indonesian intimidation campaign in order to pervert our justice system, I have a problem. Australians have no right whatsoever to intimidate our courts to give impunity to Australian Corby, just like Indonesians have no right to intimidate Australian courts to give impunity to Indonesian citizens. As for evidence of Australian hatred of Indonesia, remember, surveys found more than 90% of Australians have negative opinions on Indonesia, so let's be realistic here.

The only racists in this case are the Australians who denigrate us as "monkeys" because we don't give impunity to that Australian Corby.

BTW to anton, again I don't hate or love Australia. Only my outrage to Australian hostility to Indonesia force me to speak out! If Australia's anti-Indonesian policies and attitude I mention was not modified, how can there be a truly friendly relationship between Australia and Indonesia?

Sydney Morning Herald today:

(good news - but not a surprise)

Australian tourists appear to be ignoring calls for a boycott of Bali in protest at the 20-year jail sentence handed out to Schapelle Corby for smuggling marijuana.
Garuda Indonesia announced an extra flight from Sydney and Brisbane to Denpasar, bringing the weekly total to five and increasing weekly seats by 146 to 1,318.
A total of 20,960 Australians visited Bali in April, with nearly 80,000 during the first four months of the year.
Figures for May - the month in which Corby was sentenced, followed by Bali boycott calls from her supporters - are expected to continue to rise and Garuda said 2005 promised to be a record year.
"Consistently strong bookings demonstrate the continued affection that Australians have for Bali," according to general manager of Garuda Indonesia Australia/USA, Suranto Yitnopawiro.
"Australian high-end and budget travellers alike are holidaying in Bali in record numbers and reaping the benefits of a strong Aussie dollar, which buys 7,300 rupiah in Bali," he said.
AdvertisementAdvertisement
Apart from the beach attractions at Kuta and elsewhere, Bali shops offer great bargains especially in clothing, restaurant meals and taxis, he added.
Garuda's new flight, using a wide-bodied A330 jet, departs Sydney on Fridays at 8am, flying via Brisbane to arrive at Denpasar at 2.40pm local time.
The extra southbound flight leaves Denpasar for Sydney at 11.05pm on Thursdays, arriving in Sydney at 6.35am.
Lawyers for Corby lodged a 21-page document with the Bali High Court calling for her conviction and 20-year jail sentence to be cancelled and for the 27-year-old to be freed from Bali's Kerobokan prison.
Three high court judges now have 60 days to decide her appeal, but can extend that by another 30 days.
If they agree to reopen her trial, new evidence would be heard by the same Denpasar District Court that last month sentenced Corby to 20 years in jail.
© 2005 AAP

Calm down, isoboy. When did I ever mention abt the embassy powder attack?

He didn't say you mentioned the embassy powder attack.

"Calm down" is good advice.

Give me a break. Is that what your fuss was about? That is pathetic - i initially suggested that people who kill innocents for any cause no matter how noble or good can be considered terrorists. So even by my logic "GAM or OPM freedom fighters" who murder innocents are terrrorists.

My full quote looks a lot different does it not?:
"Well, it's a cliche but it is true, one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist. But I never commented on the actions of GAM or OPM freedom fighters. Anyway, there have been atrocities on both sides."

From that quote how can you say that i am an enemy of indonesia and wish it's destruction? That is so stupid it is funny.

Ie, your quote followed:
" What? You called the GAM and OPM "freedom fighters"? I think it is clear where your sympathies lay, with our enemies who wanted to destroy our country! I am familiar with these Australians who masquerade as a "friend" of Indonesia yet stabbing us in the back by supporting our enemies. Of course you exaggerate our so-called "military abuses", then try to cover-up and ameliorate the ethnic-cleansing being done by our enemies. Typical back-stabbing mentality!"

And you acuse me of putting words your mouth. Talk about parnoid.

GAM and OPM certainly see themselves as freedom fighters and you call them terrorists. So, my point about perceptions (or PR as you call it) is clear as day. Where's the problem? I wasn't taking sides nor was I expecting you to take sides.

If i was to accept your stance on "MYOB", then aren't travel warnings and embargos Australia's own business? It would have to work both ways, right? Shouldn't we be allowed to have Ned Kelly as a hero without you "dictating" to us in this forum? Stupid isn't it? Of course, we would expect Indonesia to express an opinion, we would consider it and act on it as we seem fit. Indonesia does and should do the same.

Dictating means that the one being dictated to does what they are told - so i think you have used the wrong word. Maybe that is why i think what you say is nonsense.

By the way, i ask again, what embargo? You just started talking - again - about piracy, etc.

I have absolute right to criticise when you call separatists as "freedom fighters". The term "freedom fighter" you used is just short of justifying ethnic-cleansing the rebels did. The only "freeing" they did is to "free" folks from "unwanted" ethnicities of their lives. There is no way one can say they like Indonesia, yet on the other hand they display sympathies to separatist terrorists intent on destroying Indonesia by fallaciously calling them with one-sided term "freedom fighters" instead of at least neutral term "rebels". That's just like saying you like the Jews but you sympathise with Adolf Hitler.

I have absolute right to criticise when you call separatists as "freedom fighters". The term "freedom fighter" you used is just short of justifying ethnic-cleansing the rebels did. The only "freeing" they did is to "free" folks from "unwanted" ethnicities of their lives. There is no way one can say they like Indonesia, yet on the other hand they display sympathies to separatist terrorists intent on destroying Indonesia by fallaciously calling them with one-sided term "freedom fighters" instead of at least neutral term "rebels". That's just like saying you like the Jews but you sympathise with Adolf Hitler.

You are comparing this to Adolf Hitler and the Jews? So are the seperatists the Jews or the Nazi's? Who is Winston Churchhill? Who is Stalin, Roosevelt and Mussolini in your new little allegory? Let me guess - you would chose to be Goebbels except that would mean you be a Nazi. I'd be laughing if it wasn't such a serious subject. I missed your posts - welcome back!!!

By the way - what embargo? I guess you will never say.

The identification of a terrorist organization is very political. GAM certainly fit the list if we also used other organization as a model. One just need to look at who the US call terrorist and cross reference their actions with GAM.

It is interesting that the JDL is not in the US terrorist list even though they attempted to assasinate a US congressman and attempted to bombed a mosque in LA. Imagine if it was an Islamic group that attempted to assassinate a US congressman and attempted to bombed either a church or a synogogue. All hell would break loose.

You are comparing this to Adolf Hitler and the Jews? So are the seperatists the Jews or the Nazi's? Who is Winston Churchhill? Who is Stalin, Roosevelt and Mussolini in your new little allegory? Let me guess - you would chose to be Goebbels except that would mean you be a Nazi. I'd be laughing if it wasn't such a serious subject. I missed your posts - welcome back!!!

By the way - what embargo? I guess you will never say.

It is GAM with its agenda of ethnic-cleansing that is comparable to the Nazis or the Serb extremeists, while their innocent victims that according to you is "freed" from their lives can be compared to the Jews. Only TNI through its 2003 offensive prevented worse ethnic-cleansing in that province. The security TNI created allowed for growth rate of 4.5% in 2004 after negative growth since 1999 due to economy crisis and conflict. Indonesia also develop Aceh so that they have high adult literacy rate (95.5%), low unemployment of 6.2%, and good life expectantcy of 67.7 years. Not to mention we got three Acehnese in SBY's cabinet and the biggest media tycoon Surya Paloh is Acehnese. If it weren't due to these Nazi GAM burning schools and extorting businessmen, more Acehnese could have been liberated from poverty and ignorance. That's all the terrorist GAM did, locking Acehnese in poverty and dumbness, perfect cannon fodder for their ethnic warfare. So much for your "freedom fighters".

Abt the embargoes, I've spelt it out for you in my previous post, can't you read?

Dari Sabang sampai Merauke , that s the Republic of Indonesia.

In my opinion, any threat from a organization to destablize a sovereign country is called terrorism, hence the term terrorist organization is a very good term to describe GAM.

cheers

Ok, can I just say that I agree that Shapelle Croby was guilty and I think she was probably lucky to get 20 years considering the strict penalities imposed on drug smugglers in Indonesia. I think many Australians have over-reacted in their opposition to Indonesia after the Corby trail and that it has been totally unfair. I think that people who demand their money that they donated for the tsunami aid should shove it up their ass and get over it.

Ok, let me explain that the xenophobia that Australia once had against Indonesia was a legacy of the Suharto era when we were highly fearful of an active Indonesian military. I know that the Australian military today still feels very emotionally about the need to protect our northern borders.

But I think isoboy made a good point when he said that the Australian and Indonesian embassy attacks were not made by the countries, but by extremist individuals.

It s in everybody interest that Indonesia remain intact. One Unitary State , and it s very dangerous if this country will be balkanize.
And I agree that those so-called freedom fighters are a threat and therefore should be dealt with.

It s in everybody interest that Indonesia remain intact. One Unitary State , and it s very dangerous if this country will be balkanize.
And I agree that those so-called freedom fighters are a threat and therefore should be dealt with.

I fear too the further breakup of the Indonesia and the so-called “balkanisation” is indeed a nightmare no-one wants to see.

On the other hand, I am not sure that the Indonesian government’s current methods do not need rethinking. I don’t pretend to have all the answers, and I am expecting a few people will tell me it is not my place to comment, but I am fearful that crushing separatists by military action alone (even if successful – it hasn’t been yet) does not give real peace. Peace is not the absence of hostilities, but is based on justice and reconciliation between parties. Whether one, agrees with them or not, the separatists feel they have real and deep-seated grievances, and the reality is they are not going to give up. Military action may “crush terrorists” but history the world over shows that it only strengthens the resolve of those against you AND worse, turns supporters away. The only way military action alone is going to work is the complete annihilation of the people – not just the separatists.

I in my opinion, the current strategies employed by both sides are not going to resolve anything, and I think it is the Indonesian government who is in the best position to influence events but it will need a complete rethink.

The problem as I see it is, that these separatists see themselves as fighting for independence from Indonesia just as Indonesia fought for independence from the Dutch. I am NOT saying that this is correct or justified or that I agree with it. I am only saying that this is how they view the world. Military action will only enforce this view amongst them and increase their supporters. They have to be convinced that it is best to stay with Indonesia. And this will take a long time and important part of this is to rebuild trust. I’m realistic enough to know that there will always be an element of the population who cannot be “won over” BUT I do believe it is possible to win the trust for a majority that is a “critical mass” that will remove the support for the separatists and make their position untenable. Surely therefore, reconciliation - which is a very long and hard, no quick fix, full of compromise for both sides - is the only long term not a military conquest. I know this is very simplistic but military conquests build empires and empires always eventually fail, reconciliation builds nations. I’m sure we want to see a nation, not an empire. As I said, I don’t pretend to have the answers – this is more an observation. :-)

David-80, I don’t actually disagree with your definition of terrorism, but perhaps we should be careful in applying it in EVERY situation. I.e., you said “In my opinion, any threat from a organization to destablise a sovereign country is called terrorism, hence the term terrorist organization is a very good term to describe GAM.” Fine, but if one uses this definition for every case without discretion, it could be argued (as it indeed it was by some) that the ANC and Nelson Mandela were terrorists. The danger with such blanket definitions is that people can use (twist?) them to justify their own causes. Having said that, I think it is a clear that continuing to make comparisons between various conflicts can actually be counterproductive and just clouds issues further – and I’m not saying I haven’t been doing it.

As for the “military embargoes” (plural!?!) I think Corduroy means the cooperative security treaty that was torn up by BOTH sides at the time of the East Timor crisis in 1999. And who could blame either side? It was only agreed upon in 1995 (94?) anyway. Before that, there was a much smaller level of military cooperation, although I am happy to be corrected if someone can come up with some well-sourced information, not sensationalised jingoism. Since then, and especially in the last few years only, cooperation is gradually increasing again I understand although do not know details. (I would be interested if someone can provide such details)

I am happy to see, in principle, increased military cooperation between the two countries. But it is the right of each individual country to decide and no country I believe is to be obligated.

An embargo means a ban on the trade and the movement of goods. I still don’t have clarification on exactly what is meant. But even if Corduroy wasn’t clear on the cause, he was clear on what he thought the effects were; I understand he sees Australia as being responsible for increases in piracy in Indonesian waters, illegal logging, fishing, etc. I suggest that is a massive exaggeration at best but more likely rubbish although, of course I am happy to be corrected if provided with well-sourced information, not sensationalism better placed in bad newspapers. To be blunt, surely, although help and cooperation always help, each country is ultimately responsible for it’s own “border security”. As for Australia blocking the supply of spare parts to Indonesians navy – I can’t believe it is true. Rather I am sure Indonesia’s military – as any military is - would not be solely reliant on their neighbours for spare parts.

By the way, if this discussion is to continue, should it not be in a separate thread? Anyone seen the subject title of this thread recently? ;)

"Fine, but if one uses this definition for every case without discretion, it could be argued (as it indeed it was by some) that the ANC and Nelson Mandela were terrorists."

ANC was considered terrorist by the Australian, American and the UK governments. Just recently, one of the South african government official wasn't allowed to enter the US because he was still on the terrorism watch list. The difference between the ANC and GAM is that the ANC doesn't wan't to ceceede and when presented an opportunity for a peaceful resolution, they took it. Then there is the part where they targeted only government installation (apart from the Church st bombing). GAM target both government and civilian installations. They are known to kidnap individuals and extort money to release these civilians. ANC have never ever done this. Then you have Mandela vs. the Swede. Mandela stayed in the country and was prepared to face the consequences of his action and did so. Where as Tito ran like a coward to Sweden and became a Swedish citizens.

well said Ara, not only Tiro ran like a coward but all those people with their big mouth staying in foreign countries , yelling against Indonesia.
Especially in the Netherlands where all those RMS supporters they were all born in The Netherlands , some of them never been to Indonesia before , throwing stones to the Indonesian Embassy in The Hague.
They should come to Jakarta and throw stones in Jakarta.

Military action may “crush terrorists” but history the world over shows that it only strengthens the resolve of those against you AND worse, turns supporters away.

Funny you said this. Was not it you who said we should never talk to terrorists? We in Indonesia do not care what the terrorist GAM think. Whatever concession or "reconcilliation" efforts we will do, they will keep doing their terroristic actions anyway. If we give them a break, all these terrorists will do is smuggle more guns from abroad, and kill and kidnap more people. Juts like after the tsunami, when most of our soldiers were occupied with relief work, the opportunitic GAM terrorists kidnapped lots of people and killed many civil servants. Imagine if we give them a ceasefire or troop withdrawal as they asked. Next time we know they'll send terrorists to bomb Medan or Jakarta like they've done in 1999-2000 (JSX bombing, Pertamina complex bombing in Medan). It is only our military offensive and good intel work that managed to annihilate their network outside Aceh that prevented more of these terroristic bombings to occur.

In short, just like Australia or USA are not interested with talks with Osama bin Laden or Adolf Hitler, Indonesians are understandably not interested with talks with terrorist GAM. Talking with GAM would only worsen violence in Aceh from current relative peace after the military offensive and make life of Acehnese more miserable. Violence is the only language GAM terrorists understand, and they see any peaceful gestures from us as sign of weakness.

NB: your comparison of GAM with ANC is an absolute insult to Nelson Mandela. What ANC fought for was the repeal of the racist apartheid laws that considered blacks as sub-human. Neither did ANC want to expel all whites from South Africa. While GAM has no legitimate reason for existence as Aceh is treated well by Indonesia and its quality of life indicators are slightly above national average. Acehnese can become whatever they want, there are so many infuential Acehnese in Indonesian govt. What GAM wanted is to expel all non-Acehense by violence. When the Gayo and Alas ppl of Central Aceh showed little interest in GAM, they killed and robbed many of them. That's why GAM has no presence in Gayo and Alas-dominated areas in Central and Southeastern Aceh. It is absolutely disgusting that you somehow find sympathy for GAM's chauvinistic ethnic-cleansing agenda.

Funny you said this. Was not it you who said we should never talk to terrorists?



You bet I was. Show me where I said we should negotiate with terrorists. Or are you saying the whole population/s are terrorists ? I doubt it. So again I say “Military action [alone (which I went on to say but you “missed that”)] may “crush terrorists” but history the world over shows that it only strengthens the resolve of those against you [clarification for corduroy’s benefit: who may not be terrorists/murderers but] AND worse, turns supporters away.” Isn’t this just stating the obvious that violence committed by someone doesn’t normally create sympathy and understanding in its victim [innocent non-terrorist victims, for Corduroy's benefit]. Or can you twist that around too?

For crying out loud – I specifically said initially I wasn’t talking about GAM – I just (very mistakenly) used them as an example to point out perceptions – in response to your comments about PR. If you are suggesting I am a terrorist sympathiser then ****-off is my response to that – I won’t address it again! (but if not i take back ****-off unreservedly) Yes, in hindsight it was one dumb-arsed example of my to use in front of the likes of you corduroy. And yeah – big mistake of mine not putting the word “freedom fighter” in inverted commas.

As for being a “GAM sympathiser” you overlook a number of my comments:
I’ve already said don’t negotiate with murderers, I don’t want to see further break up of Indonesia, there have been atrocities on both sides.



NB: your comparison of GAM with ANC is an absolute insult to Nelson Mandela.

These words are garbage. (can I be more blunt?)

I never compared GAM to ANC. I actually warned against comparisons and you know it. Stop putting words into my mouth – which was an accusation you made against me. You were also the one who called me “sly”. Nelson Mandela is a man of a quality that you could never understand. A man of reconciliation, compassion and understanding.

What is your problem? Anything I say you can twist around. I can’t say anything without you telling me what I think and how bad it is. If I said I enjoyed apples you’d find a way to turn that against me. If I said I loved my Mum you’d say I liked incest like all Australians. You completely ignored my attempts to discuss with reason – i.e., why no comment on my latest reply to your “embargo” accusations? Cos you have nothing constructive to say on it – only a wish to use it to further your hate.

Fine disagree with me but calling names “sly aussie minx” and using emotional language (like I am here for once) ain’t helpful in anyway.

And no, i don't expect this post of mine to change your opinions and expect your garbage to keep flowing, but at least people here of less vindictive nature than yourself can see how I feel.

What is your problem? Anything I say you can twist around. I can’t say anything without you telling me what I think and how bad it is. If I said I enjoyed apples you’d find a way to turn that against me. If I said I loved my Mum you’d say I liked incest like all Australians. You completely ignored my attempts to discuss with reason – i.e., why no comment on my latest reply to your “embargo” accusations? Cos you have nothing constructive to say on it – only a wish to use it to further your hate.



Good to see you agreeing that GAM is a terrorist organisation.

I never say anything abt apples or incests, please don't exaggerate. The only reason I'm a bit vindictive is I can not accept GAM being labelled as "freedom fighters" since the term justified their terroristic actions. Now you have renounced that term, let's put the matter to rest. On the embargo, Indonesian navy is dependent on spare parts from EU and USA. Our air force is also dependent on US spare parts as our planes are mostly F-16s. Although Australia is not a major source of military hardware, it is in Australia's interest to extend full military cooperation with TNI and as a somewhat important ally of the US, Australia should lobby US to totally lift all arms embargo against Indonesia since this embargo is causing a spike in piracy, terrorism, illegal logging, illegal fishing etc. The first two problmes, piracy and terrorism negatively affects the interests of both Australia and the US.

NB: your comparison of GAM with ANC is an absolute insult to Nelson Mandela. .

and by the way, now that I've clarified for you my comments on Mr Mandela (see my previous post), perhaps you might be man enough to concede that you misinterpreted my comments.

can't you just concede one tiny thing? I believe i have plenty.

Good to see you agreeing that GAM is a terrorist organisation.

I never say anything abt apples or incests, please don't exaggerate. The only reason I'm a bit vindictive is I can not accept GAM being labelled as "freedom fighters" since the term justified their terroristic actions. Now you have renounced that term, let's put the matter to rest. On the embargo, Indonesian navy is dependent on spare parts from EU and USA. Our air force is also dependent on US spare parts as our planes are mostly F-16s. Although Australia is not a major source of military hardware, it is in Australia's interest to extend full military cooperation with TNI and as a somewhat important ally of the US, Australia should lobby US to totally lift all arms embargo against Indonesia since this embargo is causing a spike in piracy, terrorism, illegal logging, illegal fishing etc. The first two problmes, piracy and terrorism negatively affects the interests of both Australia and the US.

WOW!!!!! talking of conceding a point - ha, ha!!! And at least responding to my effrots on the "embargo"

Ie, i had only just said as you yourself were posting: "and by the way, now that I've clarified for you my comments on Mr Mandela (see my previous post), perhaps you might be man enough to concede that you misinterpreted my comments.

I'll look closer later - back to work now though (shh!!!)

Well of course apples and that unsavoury topic is an exageration and I had no doubt it was obvious. I used solely for illustrative purposes (kinda like my fateful use of GAM and Mandela for purely illustrative purposes - no comparison intended!!!!) ;-)

Ie, i had only just said as you yourself were posting: "and by the way, now that I've clarified for you my comments on Mr Mandela (see my previous post), perhaps you might be man enough to concede that you misinterpreted my comments.




Hehe.. why are you so insecure abt your own statement? You don't need my approval to feel good abt your comments.

Hehe.. why are you so insecure abt your own statement?You don't need my approval to feel good abt your comments

Come on - give me a break. No more twisting of my words by you!!!!

;)

But seriously, i am confident enough in my opinions and this helps me accept if I'm wrong. I don't just express them so people know - i like to influence people too. And, i think this is the case for everyone - yourself included! :)

OK - with mention of a US embargo i can appreciate more what you are saying (it took us long enough!). If i knew about it at one stage i have completely forgotten about it. But you can understand i'd take issue with you if you were suggesting Australia was responsible for all those problems you listed?

Talking very generally, the problems with any arms trade is that once something is sold for a given purpose, one can be quickly dissappointed by what the buyer later uses them for. Maybe this is why the US is wary (justifiably or not). Are they resuming trade now to some extent?

There's no easy answer. Also I don't enough about any INdonesia/US/Australia "embargo" to comment except to repeat that i hope the environment fostering increased cooperation/trade/etc in all fields (including militarily) continues to develop. But I guess not many people would disagree with that huge generalisation.

Goodness gracious.....I will actually pay hundred bucks to see corduroy and Anton making love...opps..wait the minute, I mean..being a best friend....

cheers

Goodness gracious.....I will actually pay hundred bucks to see corduroy and Anton making love...opps..wait the minute, I mean..being a best friend....

cheers

I will add another 100 bucks when the 2 make peace :)
Come on guys , make peace man . It s good to have a opinion , but don t 'kill 'each other :)

I will add another 100 bucks when the 2 make peace :)
Come on guys , make peace man . It s good to have a opinion , but don t 'kill 'each other :)

I thought we had a small break through in the last few posts? Glad you can see the funny side. It is a bit ridiculous.

I must say it is quite out of character for me to go on like this. Maybe it is for Corduroy too.

I thought we had a small break through in the last few posts? Glad you can see the funny side. It is a bit ridiculous.

I must say it is quite out of character for me to go on like this. Maybe it is for Corduroy too.


You both mean it well and you both should go into politics :) :sleepy:
I like it though reading both your comments. :lol: This doesn t mean it s ridiculious but it s good to read again both your comments.

I am sorry to say but if this thread is going on like this again. I have to close this thread. Lets make separate thread about Indo - oz relationship if you both want to resume the debate.

cheers

Just to lighten the mood, I present to you Yoda.

http://www.humorconnect.com/pictures/342.jpg