which better?

http://bingoimage.naver.com/data3/bingo_91/imgbingo_17/zooo9000/29957/zooo9000_20.jpg
http://cbingoimage.naver.com/data/bingo_60/imgbingo_95/silvermk22/22982/silvermk22_7.jpg http://bingoimage.naver.com/data3/bingo_62/imgbingo_50/sgfbojoge/24473/sgfbojoge_53.jpg http://bingoimage.naver.com/data2/bingo_5/imgbingo_54/changeup2002/27361/changeup2002_41.jpg

Tokyo.

of course tokyo.

tokyo rail is better. it always arrives on time never been late by a minute except for emergency situation.

London's rail system used to be the envy of the world, but these days it's a decaying, overcrowded, outdated, inefficient and grossly under-invested pile of crap.

Tokyo rail.

btw skyscraper03, are you korean ?

Tokyo

Natually, one would have to give credit to Tokyo's network. It's the largest in the world, and of very high quality.

London has the 2nd largest network in the world, and in this comparison, does indeed come 2nd. But London's network is still pretty amazing.

TOKYO rail (JR + Subway + Private Line)

http://www30.tok2.com/home/air/cgi-bin/img-box/img20050612034907.jpg

I would say Tokyo.

tokyo, best guess...

Not as efficient, punctional or clean as Tokyo's network, but London's network has more history, a welcoming environment, iconic network, revolutionary evolution, architecturally diverse, detailed and impressively designed stations & termini and without the overcrowding and horrific problem of chikans of Tokyo (mass groping phenomena in Tokyo which has led to women-only carriages!).





London Rail Map (National and London Underground Lines + Stations)
http://img40.echo.cx/img40/1357/londonrailmapmay20055qq.jpg

Yamanote-sen ROCKS! I lived in Tokyo for a while and I have fantastic memories of that line, going round and round and round and falling asleep drunk and waking up wondering where you are but confident that it wasnt 500 miles from where you started-and not being mugged when it happened like in London.

London has a fantastic pedigree through the years and decades and when you take that into account it could rival Tokyo. The rail system of London for its time in say 1905 could seriously rival that of Tokyos now taking into varying factors such as time differential. However the sheer size of Tokyos system places it in the pole position.

"Yoyogi, Yoygi desu!"
Ah, the memories!

Tokyo rail is so dense!!! SO does London......however the High Speed railways make me choose tokyio!

Tokyo beat any city in the world.

does anybody know how many miles are in the Tokyo subway system vs London, Moscow, Madrid, Paris, NY, and Mexico City?

Tokyo, hands down. Asides from London's longer history of rail-based transport, it's nowhere near as well-maintained and reliable as Tokyo's.

I still want to know the station count for Tokyo!

Tokyo's is better, although both can get very congested during the rush

London

tokyo

http://www.globalphotos.org/london/20041228/DSCN5469.jpg

http://www.globalphotos.org/london/20041228/DSCN5482.jpg

http://www.globalphotos.org/london/20041231/DSCN6306.jpg

http://www.globalphotos.org/london/20041231/DSCN6318.jpg

http://www.globalphotos.org/london/20041229/DSCN5561.jpg

http://www.globalphotos.org/london/20041229/DSCN5558.jpg

http://www.globalphotos.org/london/20041229/DSCN5562.jpg

Tokyo for me!

http://tokyoyakei2.cool.ne.jp/tokyo/yurikamome/yurikamome-23.jpg
:D

http://tokyoyakei.halfmoon.jp/tokyo/railway/shinkansen/shinkansen-10.jpg

TOKYO RAIL SYSTEM

http://tokyoyakei.halfmoon.jp/tokyo/railway/shinkansen/shinkansen-10.jpg


Although I was for Tokyo all along, all this talk about London's history got me thinking for a second. Then I saw this pic. Tokyo by a mile.

http://www.globalphotos.org/london/20041229/DSCN5561.jpg
What a bad taste train it is.

http://club.pep.ne.jp/~yfurukawa/E231-500-5/E231_502.JPG
This is the Yamanote line train which links important cities of Tokyo, between Tokyo Sta(Marunouchi), Yurakucho(Ginza), Shibuya, Shinjuku and Ikebukuro. This line is the most important line in Tokyo and probably has the largest number of passengers in the world.

http://www.02.246.ne.jp/~sugi2002/touyoko/904.jpg
http://www.02.246.ne.jp/~sugi2002/touyoko/20.jpg
This is the train for the Tokyu toyoko line and the Tokyu garden city line. These two lines are for high society people in Tokyo. The terminal of these lines is Shibuya, the most fashionable city in Tokyo.

http://eisenbahn.web.infoseek.co.jp/railway/nodaline/tb8000-nodaline_big.jpg
This is the train on the most unpopular line, Tobu isesaki line and for lower class people in Tokyo. It's just the eerie train. This line's terminal is Asakusa, the slum in Tokyo.

From what I've heard, Tokyo.

Tokyo, I have heard service is near flawless and is rarely every late.

the high speed tilting train invented in england.

Londons isnt bad....not by a Long way....see

http://www.transportcafe.co.uk/image15/virgin_train.jpg

...Its just tokyos is probably the best in the world.

London has good railway system but TOKYO is much better at present.

http://www.globalphotos.org/london/20041225/DSCN4241.jpg

http://www.globalphotos.org/london/20041225/DSCN4239.jpg

http://www.globalphotos.org/london/20041225/DSCN4227.jpg

http://www.globalphotos.org/london/20041230/DSCN5928.jpg

http://www.globalphotos.org/london/20041230/DSCN5927.jpg

http://www.globalphotos.org/london/20041226/DSCN4711.jpg

http://www.globalphotos.org/london/20041226/DSCN4712.jpg

Tokyo. Too modern and better than London can beat.

errh?

http://railpics.fc2web.com/sta001.jpg

http://railpics.fc2web.com/sta002.jpg

Tokyometro's ticket gate and vending machine


http://railpics.fc2web.com/0801.jpg http://railpics.fc2web.com/0802.jpg

http://railpics.fc2web.com/sta004.jpg

These are trains and the platform on the Hanzomon subway line. The trains on this line go direct into the Tokyu garden city line. That explains why these give a feeling of quality.

http://railpics.fc2web.com/sta003.jpg

This is the platform on the Nanboku subway line.

http://tokyoyakei.halfmoon.jp/tokyo/railway/shinkansen/shinkansen-10.jpg
Just looking at that pic makes my want to vote for tokyo

Tokyo rail system is more modern and sophisticated

Is this thread a joke? No city's rail network can compare to Tokyo.

http://photoimg.enjoyjapan.naver.com/view/47/43/enjoyjapan_18/15000/14608.jpg
http://www.agui.net/imglog/jnr/img-box/img20040313201458.jpg
http://www1.harenet.ne.jp/~nishi-da/special/500-53d1.jpg

Another unfit comparison. Tokyo is other-worldly compared to London. Tokyo's trains make London's look like little choo choo and that's no easy task. I can't believe people actually voted for London

But its not that Londons is bad though....I mean every citys Rail would lose badly to Tokyo.

Tokyo by a long way. London and the UK as a whole badly needs a proper high speed rail network, and I don't count the Virgin West Coast upgrade as a high speed line. With the billions poured into that upgrade, they might as well have built a new line down the centre of the country!

Japan's rail network is amazing, but if anything they have built too many shinkansen (bullet train) lines. The Tokaido line is useful, but do you really need one all the way down Kyushu?

If i were somehow the Dictator of the UK I would
1: Invest in a high speed rail network covering London, Birmingham, Glasgow, with spurs to Cambridge, Leeds, Manchester and Liverpool. Another Line from London to Bristol and Cardiff would be good.
2: Make sure the track, rolling stock, signals are made in Japan. I'm sick and tired of standing in packed Northern Line carriges in a tunnel after yet another signal failure. The signals on the Northern Line are supposed to be quite new, how come they keep failing??? We also need decent sized carriages, hence the need for Japanese size loading gauges.
3: Make the tube tunnels larger, so we don't have to sit in Mickey Mouse tube carriages...

there, rant over!

Am now in Tokyo and their railway system is just amazing!
Clean, safe, punctual, close to perfection!

Looking at the pictures of London's railway, they aren't so bad.
But compare any railway with that of Tokyo's anytime, it would suffer in comparison :D

Tokyo's railway is definately more efficient and more modern. The trains always arrive on time. All the trains are overcrowded, though, especially on the subway. London's older railway system is not as crowded, but it still need to be replaced with something better. I say Tokyo.

London

tokyo for sure

Tokyo.
No doubt!!
I have seen both.
:)

Tokyo (*cough* traitor!)

I can't deny it... Its bigger, better and more reliable.

The only areas that London betters Tokyo are History and Branding / Iconic-ness (is that a word?)

Tokyo by a long way. London and the UK as a whole badly needs a proper high speed rail network, and I don't count the Virgin West Coast upgrade as a high speed line. With the billions poured into that upgrade, they might as well have built a new line down the centre of the country!

Japan's rail network is amazing, but if anything they have built too many shinkansen (bullet train) lines. The Tokaido line is useful, but do you really need one all the way down Kyushu?

If i were somehow the Dictator of the UK I would
1: Invest in a high speed rail network covering London, Birmingham, Glasgow, with spurs to Cambridge, Leeds, Manchester and Liverpool. Another Line from London to Bristol and Cardiff would be good.
2: Make sure the track, rolling stock, signals are made in Japan. I'm sick and tired of standing in packed Northern Line carriges in a tunnel after yet another signal failure. The signals on the Northern Line are supposed to be quite new, how come they keep failing??? We also need decent sized carriages, hence the need for Japanese size loading gauges.
3: Make the tube tunnels larger, so we don't have to sit in Mickey Mouse tube carriages...

there, rant over!


you can't 'make' tunnels larger. You can only build new ones. Biggest mistake London made was not forecasting future use and expansion. Thats usually the problem for the guys that made it first though.

you can't 'make' tunnels larger. You can only build new ones. Biggest mistake London made was not forecasting future use and expansion. Thats usually the problem for the guys that made it first though.

You CAN make tunnels wider and longer!!
In Madrid it's being doing now in several lines...
;)

Tokyo (*cough* traitor!)

I can't deny it... Its bigger, better and more reliable.

The only areas that London betters Tokyo are History and Branding / Iconic-ness (is that a word?)

Actually Tokyo's subway was opened in 1927 and has long history.
This is the oldest line in Tokyo but you would be satisfied with facilities even on this line.

http://railpics.fc2web.com/0101.jpg

The London Underground is around 142 years old, compared to Tokyo's age of 78years old. In other words the London Underground is 64 years older than Tokyo's network. I really wouldn't try to argue that history is a point Tokyo wins by here.

Tokyo! but i think london's trains look nicer ;) (with the exception of shinkansen :drool: )

The London Underground is around 142 years old, compared to Tokyo's age of 78years old. In other words the London Underground is 64 years older than Tokyo's network. I really wouldn't try to argue that history is a point Tokyo wins by here.

I only say it's perfect for its age.

Well for a network that dates back that is nearly double its age, the London Underground doesn't do to bad ;)

Well for a network that dates back that is nearly double its age, the London Underground doesn't do to bad ;)

London's subway used to employ steam locomotives until 1889. It doesn't call subway at all.

How could London's be better? Tokyo is a million times bigger it needs a bigger, better rail. London rail is a network of dirty tunnels. Tokyo has bullet trains and whatever.

Tokyo (and, to a certain extent, all other metro systems in the world) has always had a history of upgrading, modernizing and replacing its facilities. What sits down there today is probably a cutting-edge system anyway. The only thing that cannot and has not been upgraded is the basic station layout and platform structure. Therefore, some older stations can get really crowded because they weren't designed for such heavy passenger flow.

Within Tokyo's official borders, there are around 615 unique stations (transfers are not counted more than once). Around 200 of those are Subway/Tram (the Tram accounts for around 30 stations, so around 170 subway). About 150 of the stations are serviced by JR East (not uniquely, that number I do not have). Tokyo also has the world's busiest staton of Shinjuku, as well as the second busiest at Ikebukuro. Shinagawa, Tokyo and Ueno JR stations are also impressive with 15-20 tracks each including the Shinkansen services.

Sample of Tokyo's power!

SHINJUKU STATION COMPLEX:
Shinjuku is a huge bulk mass of buildings all in one block and all adjacent to each other and interconnected concources and direct-transfer faregates where you cross company territory without going via non-fare-paid areas.

JR Shinjuku Station
-Saikyo Line (Rinkai Line through service)
-Yokosuka Line (Shonan Shinjuku Line)
-Tokaido Line (Shonan Shinjuku Line)
-Takasaki Line (Shonan Shinjuku Line)
-Utsunomiya Line (Shonan Shinjuku Line)
-Chuo Line Limited Express Service (Ome Line through service) (dedicated separate platforms at Shinjuku)
-Chuo Line Rapid Service (dedicated separate platforms)
-Chuo Line Local Service (dedicated separate platforms)
-Yamanote Line

Odakyuu Shinjuku Station
-Odawara Line
-Tama Line
-Enoshima Line
-Rapid Express, Rapid, Express, Semi-Express, Section-Express, Local services and Romance Car Limited Express services

Keio Shinjuku Station
-Takao Line
-Sagamihara Line
-New Line (Toei Subway Shinjuku Line shared platform)
-Hachioji Line

Toei Subway Line
-Oedo Line for Iidabashi and Ryogoku (Shinjuku West Exit Subway Station)
-Oedo Line for Hikarigaoka, Roppongi, Daimon, Shiodome (Shinjuku Subway Station)
-Shinjuku Line for Moto-Yawata

Tokyo Metro Marunouchi Subway Line for Yotsuya, Akasaka-Mitsuke, Kasumigaseki, Ginza, Tokyo, and Nakano-ku service.

London's subway used to employ steam locomotives until 1889. It doesn't call subway at all.Eh? So what would you have called the London Underground in 1863 then? A non-underground railway running underground? :laugh:




BRISBANE - London does have 'bullet trains', they're called Eurostars.




TRZ - Thats pretty interesting that Tokyo has some 615 stations as London has somewhere in the region of 575-600 (in the metro there is another 600) stations. Around 20 new stations are currently being built (along with roughly 20 new interchange stations).

I prefer though London's termini to those in Tokyo.

TRZ - Thats pretty interesting that Tokyo has some 615 stations as London has somewhere in the region of 575-600 (in the metro there is another 600)
In Greater Tokyo (Tokyo proper isn't that large), there are a couple thousand (2~3K are the estimates). All of the adjacent prefectures are larger in land area than Tokyo proper, and they all have sizable populations, particularly Kanagawa as it weighs in with both Yokohama and Kawasaki cities.

http://tokyoyakei.halfmoon.jp/tokyo/railway/shinkansen/shinkansen-10.jpg

It would be foolish to think otherwise.

People are getting confused between the national railways and metropolitan ones.
Based on efficiency and reliability, Tokyo's is better.
Based on charm etc, London's is better.

Nick have you ever been to Tokyo? There is no way that London is anywhere to Tokyo in this one, this poll is a joke, Tokyo wins this one 1000 times. Better trains, better service, always punctual and much larger number of underground lines, stations and overground lines and station, not to mention that they are so clean and in London they are so dirty and no, I am not bashing london, i m simply telling the truth, as I have been to both cities and i m neither english nor japanese but i do speak both languages.

Although it doesn't have the historical flair and monumentalism of London, my vote goes to Tokyo. The English should start living in the present instead of mourning the past, re-vamp the Tube network and overground London lines, build new railway lines and build that 200+ mph high speed link between London and the north, for **** sake!
Just look at that high-speed yard (yes, a HIGH SPEED YARD) photo of Tokyo's, and you can see London still has eons to go to even catch up...:(

How could London's be better? Tokyo is a million times bigger it needs a bigger, better rail. London rail is a network of dirty tunnels. Tokyo has bullet trains and whatever.

I would certainly vote Tokyo here also, but I think your comments are pretty uneducated.

If there were to be competition between Tokyo and another city, outside of Osaka, London would be the best choice. It does have the 2nd largest rail network in the world. The longest and oldest subway system and some of the grandest stations on the planet.

To say that London rail is just a network of dirty tunnels just demonstrates that you have no idea what you are talking about. Most of London's underground is in very good condition these days. Yes, there are some old stations still in need of work, but considering the age of the system, it's not too bad.

Also, the history works in favour for London here. Tokyo may have the largest rail network in the world, be very efficient, and have excellent frequencies, but it is pretty much unknown with the exception of the bullet trains. There would be very few people in the world who doesn't know the London Underground Tube symbol, their map (which was the basis for pretty much every other symbolic rail map on the planet) and even their train sets are world famous in design.

So, year, I still vote for Tokyo here, but silly comments like yours just make you look rather uneducated than anything else.

Nick have you ever been to Tokyo? There is no way that London is anywhere to Tokyo in this one, this poll is a joke, Tokyo wins this one 1000 times. Better trains, better service, always punctual and much larger number of underground lines, stations and overground lines and station, not to mention that they are so clean and in London they are so dirty and no, I am not bashing london, i m simply telling the truth, as I have been to both cities and i m neither english nor japanese but i do speak both languages.I have indeed been to Tokyo, but I am not somehow claiming otherwise to what you are saying. Now if you had read post number 12 in this thread, which was written by myself - you would know that I had already covered those points.

That said considering the age of the network and its size it does pretty well, more so than Paris or New York. Also Tokyo as a city does indded have a larger network - I'd have to be mentally retarded to believe otherwise, but it should be noted that Tokyo is by far the larger city. 575-600 stations within a city of 7.4mn (London, 2005) is not that bad when compared to the 615 stations within a city of 8/12.5mn (Tokyo, 2003), so don't inflate it as if it somehow its a troglodytic network when in reality is pretty good considering the circumstances it has. For modern amenities, yes London does indeed lag behind Toko: London has fewer stations with PSD's and electronic displays, yet compared to Paris and New York its not that bad and is higher than both cities on both counts. Also like Tokyo, London has a contactless card (London: Oyster; Tokyo: Suica).

Also you are wrong - London (London Underground: Bakerloo, Central, Circle, District, East London, Hammersmith & City, Jubilee, Metropolitan, Northern, Piccadilly, Victoria + Waterloo & City) and Tokyo (TOEI: Asakusa, Mita, Shinjuku + O-Edo; Tokyo Metro: Ginza, Marunouchi, Hibiya, Tozai, Chiyoda, Yurakucho, Hanzomon + Namboku) both have 12 lines. London's Underground network is larger both by route km and station count.

My main point though was with forumer BRISBANE in regards to HSR, when there is HSR (and more being constructed) in London in the form of Eurostar. Yes it lacks the extreme punctuality, cleanliness or larger network, but then Tokyo lacks a good looking terminal - (something that actually looks impressive architecturally rather than for the amount of people that flow through it), has a certain problem with chikans, critical over-crowding (that makes Victoria Station at rush-hour look like a picnic) and plain ugliness (bar 500 series).

Personally I can live with a less punctual service when there are the likes of Paddington, St Pancras, Waterloo, Victoria and Liverpool Street to welcoming me in and to send me off when I'm in London. Just like I suspect you'd retain Milano Centrale rather than some random box structure. Unfortunately we are in the era where such stations aren't made and instead were left with half-arsed modernist attempts.

But highspeed trains don't count, do they. Those can't be considered Tokyo trains, but the national railways. This discussion is only about the (sub)urban train system.

Tokyo railways are better by miles!!!!!!!!!

the paris railway system is the better in the world with his metro,RER,val,news tramways....

I'm sure Tokyo's system is better, even if we are comparing sub-urban lines.

Like London-b said, London's Terminus' are impressive:

Stratford:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f5/Stratford_Station_London_UK.jpg/800px-Stratford_Station_London_UK.jpg

St. Pancras Station:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fd/StPancrasMidlandHotel.jpg/800px-StPancrasMidlandHotel.jpg

I
Also you are wrong - London (London Underground: Bakerloo, Central, Circle, District, East London, Hammersmith & City, Jubilee, Metropolitan, Northern, Piccadilly, Victoria + Waterloo & City) and Tokyo (TOEI: Asakusa, Mita, Shinjuku + O-Edo; Tokyo Metro: Ginza, Marunouchi, Hibiya, Tozai, Chiyoda, Yurakucho, Hanzomon + Namboku) both have 12 lines. London's Underground network is larger both by route km and station count.

Tokyo has 13 lines. You forgot New Yurakucho Line (brown colored line).
Also technically Tokyo's subway system is larger than London's. The trains continue the journey beyond the last stops of each lines. From then on, the different companies run the network and the different fare structures are applied. That's why they are not included as Tokyo Metro and Toei Subway.

For example if you take Hanzomon Line towards Shibuya (the last stop, Z-01 station), the LED display shows the direction up to Chuo Rinkan and that isn't terminating at Shibuya. You can go to Shibuya with the Tokyo Metro's fare, but the Tokyu Railway company's fare applies (Tokyu Denentoshi Line) beyond Shibuya station. It's through service. The entire Tokyo subway system is similar to that of RER, connecting to the suburban lines. On the other hand in London, nothing proceeds from the tube lines. Central Line terminates at Epping. That's it. Epping is the last stop, nothing continues from it.

That said, I also agree with that the trains and stations in Tokyo are ugly as hell. I can't see the effort on their designs at all. Everywhere is just "bathroom tiles", "silver colored train box" and full of tacky adverts inside of it. The trains are fairly clean but the interior design is horrible. Also Tokyo's subway isn't that completely clean. There are of course mouse on the train tracks (and cockroaches, just to remind you if you've never seen in England). Tokyo is very hot in the summer so the smell gets terrible. These days, it's cooling down a bit (but still very hot, I guess more than 28C as full of cicadas are still crying out of the trees and give me headache) but instead it rains a lot. This rain, makes the smell wet and even worse. We've got train delays as well sometimes. Not because of the terrorist attacks like London but suicides and the signal adjustment. Also the ceiling of the train stations are sometimes overly low, which I don't like. Especially one of the paths in Otemachi station I've found has rediculously low ceiling and you'll hit your head against it. Often you have to walk the long distance to get to the platform. This is another feature of Tokyo's subway system. The distance between a platform to another for transfer, the longest has more than 400m. I think Akasaka Mitsuke station is the worst if you are on Marunouchi or Ginza line and to transfer for Nanboku, Yurakucho and Hanzomon Line (Nagatacho station).

But you'd have to give credit to Tokyo for its rich amenities. The design of London's terminals are grand and nice but Tokyo's terminals have loads of shops, often the massive department stores themselves. Shinjuku station is consist of Lumine, Keio and Odakyu department stores, Ikebukuro station is with Seibu and Tobu department stores and Shibuya station with Tokyu department store and Shibuya Mark City. There are kiosks and vending machines are readily available at the platforms. Also London does not have elevated or underground stations at their train terminals. While in Tokyo, the stations are often underground or elevated, where the trains running through the high-rise buildings. Many stations in Tokyo also have elevators for shortcut to the platforms. This is another thing.

Tokyo isn't perfect at all and overall my vote goes to London for its spacious and nice designed stations.

I would certainly vote Tokyo here also, but I think your comments are pretty uneducated.

If there were to be competition between Tokyo and another city, outside of Osaka, London would be the best choice. It does have the 2nd largest rail network in the world. The longest and oldest subway system and some of the grandest stations on the planet.

To say that London rail is just a network of dirty tunnels just demonstrates that you have no idea what you are talking about. Most of London's underground is in very good condition these days. Yes, there are some old stations still in need of work, but considering the age of the system, it's not too bad.

Also, the history works in favour for London here. Tokyo may have the largest rail network in the world, be very efficient, and have excellent frequencies, but it is pretty much unknown with the exception of the bullet trains. There would be very few people in the world who doesn't know the London Underground Tube symbol, their map (which was the basis for pretty much every other symbolic rail map on the planet) and even their train sets are world famous in design.

So, year, I still vote for Tokyo here, but silly comments like yours just make you look rather uneducated than anything else.

Brilliant post ^ :).

Londons network is very very good, but Tokyo are leading the world in alot of ways for public transport (They have no real choice with the demand in the city). So Tokyo has to win this poll, but that is not to take anything away from London at all.

Tokyo has probably got the best system in the world.

TRZ - Thats pretty interesting that Tokyo has some 615 stations as London has somewhere in the region of 575-600 (in the metro there is another 600) stations. Around 20 new stations are currently being built (along with roughly 20 new interchange stations).

But Tokyo city proper is only about 240 square miles, so those 600 stations are concentrated in an area 40% the size of Greater London.

Trains in Tokyo are way better than London. Train station wise, Londond does have some impressive ones, both modern and classic. Japan on the other hand is usually from the 80's to modern.

Tokyo has probably got the best system in the world.

I don't think there's any probably about it. London probably has the second best in the world (althought that'd be disputable) but Tokyo are just miles ahead of them and everyone else.

tokyo

This is a joke right?

In terms of density, London is the only other city you could really use to compare to Tokyo - BUT THATS IT! The London network is slow, expensive to use, run by private companies on behalf of the government preventing proper intergration with the rest of London's transport, suburban stations are outdated and can be very unwelcoming (attracting crime and vandalism). London now has some fairly modern trains on its network - but the tracks they run on are questionnable to say the least (up until a few years ago the power supply wasn't even good enough to run the new trains bought by one south london railway company!).

so in summary : Even though ive never been : Tokyo's is MUCH better based on what I hear about speed, punctuality and reliability (the same goes for all of Japans railways compared to the UK).

Often you have to walk the long distance to get to the platform. This is another feature of Tokyo's subway system. The distance between a platform to another for transfer, the longest has more than 400m. I think Akasaka Mitsuke station is the worst if you are on Marunouchi or Ginza line and to transfer for Nanboku, Yurakucho and Hanzomon Line (Nagatacho station).

That's WHY they are separate stations. Coming from Hanzoumon isn't too bad, but Yurakuchou or Namboku to Marunouchi/Ginza is over a km if you happen to be at the wrong end of the Yurakuchou train when you get off. But they're not the same station, remember that, hence you be walking. On the flip side Akasaka-Mitsuke's station transfer model is the best you can ask for between Marunouchi and Ginza. This is in place at a few other stations too (like Ookayama between Tokyu Meguro and Oimachi lines) as well as Omote-Sandou (between Ginza and Hanzoumon. However, the worst station for a transfers IMO are Mitsukoshi-Mae between Hanzoumon and Ginza, Kuramae between Oedo Line and Asakusa Lines (you have to go up to the street and walk 3 blocks!!!), Asakusa station between Asakusa Line and Tobu/Ginza Lines. Getting to the Saikyo Line at Shibuya station is retarded too, it's an airport terminal.
These stations shouldn't share the same name. There are a lot of examples where this is the case.

which better?
=============================

Too many of the threads on here are merely peyy excuses for nationalistic flag waving .

This is a given . We all know what a superb rail system the japanese have . It isn't just better than London's but also most of the world . I say 'most' because the germans , french , dutch etc have fantastic high speed trains roaring through their countryside too....as do the British with the Eurostar .

I'd like to remind the questioner that the British invented trains and railways .

PETTY excuses .

London's big, older, and is quite good, but Tokyo's is more efficient, more stations and service, and better-maintainted.

The London network is slow, expensive to use, run by private companies on behalf of the government preventing proper intergration with the rest of London's transport

Tokyo isn't exactly known for being cheap and most of the Tokyo commuter rail system is also run by private companies.

But Tokyo city proper is only about 240 square miles, so those 600 stations are concentrated in an area 40% the size of Greater London.Hence why I was unsure whether that was for 12mn or 8mn Tokyo, That said, if it were for 8mn Tokyo, it would have a population density of some 13,500/km² compared to 4,636/km² for London - a difference of some 3x. Station density is higher per area, but not by population or density.

Now if the 615 figure was for the 12mn Tokyo, then that would mean that even though it is still denser than London, it would have lower density of stations.




Tokyo has 13 lines. You forgot New Yurakucho Line (brown colored line).I thought that wasn't built yet. That said, the London Underground technically has more than 12 lines as there are branch lines. If the London Underground used a similar idea to that of New York, then there would be far more lines than the simple noted ones. An example is the Northern Line (in black) below which is clearly two lines from the north, through Central London and then forming a single line at Kennington down to Morden.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bd/Northern_Line.svg/300px-Northern_Line.svg.png


This is the same for the District Line which is in reality 6 spurs
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1d/District_Line.svg/800px-District_Line.svg.png


Cental Line
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/45/Central_Line.svg/550px-Central_Line.svg.png


Piccadilly Line
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7c/Piccadilly_Line.svg/750px-Piccadilly_Line.svg.png

Metropolitan Line
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7c/Metropolitan_Line.svg/700px-Metropolitan_Line.svg.png




Also technically Tokyo's subway system is larger than London's. The trains continue the journey beyond the last stops of each lines. From then on, the different companies run the network and the different fare structures are applied. That's why they are not included as Tokyo Metro and Toei Subway.

For example if you take Hanzomon Line towards Shibuya (the last stop, Z-01 station), the LED display shows the direction up to Chuo Rinkan and that isn't terminating at Shibuya. You can go to Shibuya with the Tokyo Metro's fare, but the Tokyu Railway company's fare applies (Tokyu Denentoshi Line) beyond Shibuya station. It's through service. The entire Tokyo subway system is similar to that of RER, connecting to the suburban lines. On the other hand in London, nothing proceeds from the tube lines. Central Line terminates at Epping. That's it. Epping is the last stop, nothing continues from it.London has a slightly different system in place where you have commuter rail lines doubling up alongside the London Underground lines. There are dozens of examples of this across the network, but essentially the commuter trains come in and stop at only a few stations, while the London Underground act as a sort of local service.

There thus would be no need to carry on out into the countryside (due to the Green Belt) when the commuter lines serve these areas already.

That said post-Epping there are plans to reinstall the track running on-to Ongar (once on the least used stations on the entire network) but for a historical railway.


That said, I also agree with that the trains and stations in Tokyo are ugly as hell. I can't see the effort on their designs at all. Everywhere is just "bathroom tiles", "silver colored train box" and full of tacky adverts inside of it. The trains are fairly clean but the interior design is horrible. Also Tokyo's subway isn't that completely clean. There are of course mouse on the train tracks (and cockroaches, just to remind you if you've never seen in England). Tokyo is very hot in the summer so the smell gets terrible. These days, it's cooling down a bit (but still very hot, I guess more than 28C as full of cicadas are still crying out of the trees and give me headache) but instead it rains a lot. This rain, makes the smell wet and even worse. We've got train delays as well sometimes. Not because of the terrorist attacks like London but suicides and the signal adjustment. Also the ceiling of the train stations are sometimes overly low, which I don't like. Especially one of the paths in Otemachi station I've found has rediculously low ceiling and you'll hit your head against it. Often you have to walk the long distance to get to the platform. This is another feature of Tokyo's subway system. The distance between a platform to another for transfer, the longest has more than 400m. I think Akasaka Mitsuke station is the worst if you are on Marunouchi or Ginza line and to transfer for Nanboku, Yurakucho and Hanzomon Line (Nagatacho station).There aren't rats like there are in New York, but there are mice. Even funnier though is the fact that there are some animals like pidgeons that commute into London. Sounds stupid right, but apparently some pidgeons have worked out that they can live outside London where there are plenty of trees and catch a train (ie on the roof) into London. They then change for a London Underground train and go direct to Trafalgar Square where all the tourists feed the pidgeons. They then commute back home using the same route they took!

The main problem with London is the signalling which has been for decades lacked the investment, but thats gradually being changed. At the end of this year for example, the entire Jubilee Line is being shut down for 5 days so that the signalling can be torn out and replaced, that the track can be hauled up and longer and more rolling stock can be put in place.

The terrorist bombings did cause a lot of damage, but thats all been fixed now.


But you'd have to give credit to Tokyo for its rich amenities. The design of London's terminals are grand and nice but Tokyo's terminals have loads of shops, often the massive department stores themselves. Shinjuku station is consist of Lumine, Keio and Odakyu department stores, Ikebukuro station is with Seibu and Tobu department stores and Shibuya station with Tokyu department store and Shibuya Mark City. There are kiosks and vending machines are readily available at the platforms. Also London does not have elevated or underground stations at their train terminals. While in Tokyo, the stations are often underground or elevated, where the trains running through the high-rise buildings. Many stations in Tokyo also have elevators for shortcut to the platforms. This is another thing.

Tokyo isn't perfect at all and overall my vote goes to London for its spacious and nice designed stations.London's stations aren't bad for shopping amenities, its just there are already various shopping districts that have a far larger foothold than the stations could have. It should be said though, that many of the major stations have developed a retailing base, eg at Paddington, Liverpool Street, etc - but this is purely for those in the immediate vicinity and those using the transport nodes and not as an attraction for those who would say go to Kensington or Oxford Street.

Also London does have termini that are elevated - the oldest elevated terminal would be London Bridge Station built in 1836 (169 years old). Its built up atop millions of bricks and the viaduct the station is built on stretches for a few miles easterly. In this old picture, you can see the raised profile and shadowing cast by the viaduct and the station which is built upon it:

http://www.wbsframe.mste.co.uk/Pictures/London_Bridge_Ariel_View.jpg

Here is that view of that said viaduct - close to 170 years old! London Bridge Station Terminus is just viewable to the bottom left:
http://www.earth-photography.com/photos/Countries/England/England_London_ElevatedRails.jpg


Most of the termini in London though are either at grade - ie you can walk from the street to the platform without any stairs or grade difference. Moorgate Terminus is completely underground as are all its approach lines.




This is a joke right?

In terms of density, London is the only other city you could really use to compare to Tokyo - BUT THATS IT! The London network is slow, expensive to use, run by private companies on behalf of the government preventing proper intergration with the rest of London's transport, suburban stations are outdated and can be very unwelcoming (attracting crime and vandalism). London now has some fairly modern trains on its network - but the tracks they run on are questionnable to say the least (up until a few years ago the power supply wasn't even good enough to run the new trains bought by one south london railway company!).

so in summary : Even though ive never been : Tokyo's is MUCH better based on what I hear about speed, punctuality and reliability (the same goes for all of Japans railways compared to the UK).Actually Tokyo's network could be considered more fragmented. The underground rail system is actually two seperate companies: TOEI + Tokyo Metro. The commuter rail system is even more complicated than that of London with far more companies in operation.

Also I'm unsure of exactly what you mean by the state of the tracks, most were electricuted many many years back and I am unsure of the company you are referring to that had trouble introducing new rolling stock because of the power supply.

Also the UK isn't not so bad for punctuality - 100%, nope, but around 90% - yes.




London also has 4 train lines going to 4 of its 5 international airports (the other is will be linked by a DLR line which is u/c), while Tokyo has only two I do believe.


Heathrow Express (London Heathrow)
http://www.datadisplayuk.com/documents/ra_heathrow4.jpg

http://www.finnmoller.dk/rail-gb/heathrowexpress332001.jpg


Gatwick Express (London Gatwick)
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/phantasrail/images/DSC_7006d.JPG

http://londonse.topcities.com/Gallery/Operators/Gatwick%20Express/460004_near_Norwood_Junction.jpg


Stansted Express (London Stansted)
http://bg66.soc.i.kyoto-u.ac.jp/yosimura/uk_ireland/ld32.jpg


Thameslink (London Luton + London Gatwick)
http://londonse.topcities.com/Gallery/Operators/Thameslink/319435_319365_Clayton_Tunnel.jpg

http://londonse.topcities.com/Gallery/Operators/Thameslink/319446_near_Coulsdon.jpg


DLR (Under Construction - London City)
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/dlr/images/lca/i_lca_banner.jpg

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/dlr/images/lca/i_flydlr_Big.gif




















A selection of trains that serve London (not including London Underground trains though). The following pictures show normal high + low frequency commuter trains and specialist historic steam trains that go on tours of the UK (eg Cathedral Express - visits the Cathedrals of England).




http://64.246.11.82/images/1/141_4128.JPG.97068.jpg

http://railwaysillustrated.com/photo.gallery/albums/userpics/10004/450017-ClaphamJn-261004.jpg

http://64.246.11.82/images/3/34067_1906IMG_3216.jpg.28860.jpg

http://64.246.11.82/images/4/450041_2005IMG_2903.jpg.41187.jpg

http://64.246.11.82/images/3/373006_2603IMG_2455.jpg.62044.jpg

http://64.246.11.82/images/0/050504_dawlish_0508-penz-pad_web.jpg.88645.jpg

http://64.246.11.82/images/0/050507_longcross_juniper_02_web.jpg.17158.jpg

http://vectorlab.co.uk/images_interest/paddington.jpg

http://64.246.11.82/images/4/43083080205.jpg.50378.jpg

http://64.246.11.82/images/2/222015080205.jpg.39990.jpg

http://64.246.11.82/images/j/jan2005_b_uk_class375-617.jpg.66164.jpg

http://64.246.11.82/images/f/FJ_GB_06_17.jpg.41795.jpg

http://64.246.11.82/images/f/FJ_GB_06_10.jpg.91343.jpg

http://64.246.11.82/images/2/222chilgren120105.jpg.17454.jpg

http://64.246.11.82/images/f/FJ_GB_03_07.jpg.46197.jpg

http://64.246.11.82/images/0/041210_lyne-34027_vsoe_web2.jpg.57932.jpg

http://64.246.11.82/images/4/47811_padd.jpg.72666.jpg

http://64.246.11.82/images/3/3772032307IMG_4099.jpg.80786.jpg

http://64.246.11.82/images/9/91101_kx.jpg.97943.jpg

http://64.246.11.82/images/v/vt390033.jpg.81752.jpg

http://64.246.11.82/images/h/ht170396.jpg.60382.jpg

http://64.246.11.82/images/6/6024_Storms_up_Dainton_13-11-04.JPG.46976.jpg

http://64.246.11.82/images/4/4600061809276_7672.jpg.60787.jpg

http://64.246.11.82/images/3/390022_Slindon_23may03.jpg.54394.jpg

http://64.246.11.82/images/u/UTA_4_Poyntz_Pass_02-09-2004ex.jpg.49807.jpg

http://64.246.11.82/images/p/pjgttogb-390018-class390-virgin.jpg.12839.jpg

http://64.246.11.82/images/9/91121_Newcastle_Central_24feb03.jpg.87022.jpg

http://64.246.11.82/images/1/159022_Exeter_Central_21oct03.jpg.26136.jpg

http://64.246.11.82/images/4/4600082307IMG_4120.jpg.70808.jpg

http://64.246.11.82/images/4/43030305w.jpg.75440.jpg

http://64.246.11.82/images/2/222023160205.jpg.97292.jpg

http://64.246.11.82/images/d/DSC_0799rp.jpg.34488.jpg

http://64.246.11.82/images/1/1704IMG_9893.jpg.51114.jpg

http://64.246.11.82/images/0/040228_73096_haynes-br_weybridge_a_www.jpg.63408.jpg

http://64.246.11.82/images/0/031223_4472_chertsey_01_medium.jpg.63078.jpg

http://64.246.11.82/images/u/UTA_4_Downshire_Halt_04-07-2004mx.jpg.74640.jpg

http://64.246.11.82/images/l/livstreet313g.jpg.35988.jpg

http://www.therailwaycentre.com/Sea%20Wall%20Guide/Picture%20file/050804-002RC.jpg

London also has 4 train lines going to 4 of its 5 international airports (the other is will be linked by a DLR line which is u/c), while Tokyo has only two I do believe.

Tokyo has two airports and each one is conncted by two railway companies.

Tokyo Narita - JR and Keisei
Tokyo Haneda - Tokyo Monorail and Keikyu

Well if were counting by servicing of airports by rail companies:


London Heathrow
- London Underground (Piccadilly Line)
- Heathrow Express
- Heathrow Connect
- Crossrail + Airtrack (soon)

London Gatwick
- Gatwick Express
- Thameslink
- Virgin Trains
- South Eastern
- Southern
- First Great Western Link

London Stansted
- Stansted Express
- One Railway
- Central Trains

London Luton
- Thameslink
- Midland Mainline

London City
- DLR (Due Dec 2005)
- Silverlink Metro

I thought that wasn't built yet. That said, the London Underground technically has more than 12 lines as there are branch lines.
The Line No.13 New Yurakucho Line is already in operation between Kotakemukaihara and Ikebukuro. As for the different branches, Tokyo has:

- 2 Marunouchi Line branches
- 4 Oedo Line branches (since it isn't a perfect ring line).
- 4 Asakusa Line branches: to Haneda Airport with Keikyu Airport Line through, to Misakiguchi with with Keikyu Line through, to Inba Medical Univ. with Hokuso Line through and to Narita Airport with Keisei Line through.
- Chiyoda Line has 2 northern branches: terminating at Kita Ayase and going to Toride with JR Joban Line through.
- Tozai Line has 2 eastern branches: going to Tsudanuma with JR Sobu Line through and to Toyo Katsutadai with Toyo Rapid Line through.
- Yurakucho Line has 2 western line branches: going to Shinrin Koen with Tobu Tojo Line through and to Hanno with Seibu Ikebukuro Line through.

These aren't counted as different lines but as different branches, the same as in London.

There are dozens of examples of this across the network, but essentially the commuter trains come in and stop at only a few stations, while the London Underground act as a sort of local service.
In Tokyo, when the subway goes out of the subway section and becomes commuter rail, they have less trains than within the subway section. They are known as Express, Semi Express, Rapid, etc. services. The trains stop at the stations according to them. The other day, I meant to go to Shibuya but I slept in Hanzomon Line train and when I woke up I realized the train was in Tokyu Denentoshi Line's section (a couple of stops after Shibuya). I got off, and waited the train at the other side of the platform (still an underground station, though) to go back. A train came but it just passed the station and then I could catch the next one stopped at my station. I think I waited for 10 mins or so. It's rather similar to the RER's intervals beyond the subway section. But they aren't that bad, they are quite frequent around Tokyo though getting less frequent in the countrysides of Saitama, Ibaraki, Chiba, etc.

There aren't rats like there are in New York, but there are mice. Even funnier though is the fact that there are some animals like pidgeons that commute into London. Sounds stupid right, but apparently some pidgeons have worked out that they can live outside London where there are plenty of trees and catch a train (ie on the roof) into London. They then change for a London Underground train and go direct to Trafalgar Square where all the tourists feed the pidgeons. They then commute back home using the same route they took!
The pegeons are harmful so don't feed them!

The main problem with London is the signalling which has been for decades lacked the investment, but thats gradually being changed. At the end of this year for example, the entire Jubilee Line is being shut down for 5 days so that the signalling can be torn out and replaced, that the track can be hauled up and longer and more rolling stock can be put in place.
I used to believe Tokyo's system was perfect but it isn't. It often has signal failures, delays and time adjustment. Also quite many people kill themselves and the trains stop at the time. We really need the platform doors.

The underground rail system is actually two seperate companies: TOEI + Tokyo Metro. The commuter rail system is even more complicated than that of London with far more companies in operation.
Yeah, this is what I don't like about Tokyo's subway system. They have the different fare tables. You can't be bothered to transfer between them as Toei Lines are slightly more expensive though their services are better (e.g. newer trains, better train announcements, etc.) than Tokyo Metro.

London also has 4 train lines going to 4 of its 5 international airports (the other is will be linked by a DLR line which is u/c), while Tokyo has only two I do believe.
Tokyo has 4.

To Narita:
- Narita Express (JR)
- Keisei Line

To Haneda:
- Tokyo Monorail
- Keihin Airport Line

Nick Taylor - You Train Spotter!! ;)

is this a joke, lol, you can not be serious as McEnroe would put it, lol,... :) :)

Anyone who ever used London (Conex South East, British Rail, Virgin Trains) would with ease know the answer, lol, Tokyo of course, million time better than London Rail Network, lol...

In London Trains are always late and there is no exception to this rule and they always cost more, lol, If I told you price for travel card in 2000 was only £2.40 and price of travel card in 2005 is U guessed £4.60, lol, now how do you justify this, lol..

Soon 1 day travel card will be £5 and what do we get in return, late, crowded and filthy trains with no air-condition... lol

Tokyo all the way, lol...

Well, if you're going to get specific, there's more than 2 train "services" to Narita Airport. There's
JR Sobu Rapid Line (no extra fare), around 1 train per hour
JR Narita Express (extra fare), around 1-2 per hour
Keisei Line (no extra fare), around 4-6 trains per hour
Keisei Skyliner (extra fare), around 1-2 trains per hour

For Haneda Airport, There's
Tokyo Monorail, around 12-15 trains per hour
Keikyu Airport Line, around 3 trains per hour towards Yokohama
Keikyu Airport Line, around 6 trains per hour towards Tokyo, Narita Airport

Tokyo isn't exactly known for being cheap and most of the Tokyo commuter rail system is also run by private companies.

If you stick to one service provider, Tokyo train fares are definately cheaper than those you will find in London.

- 4 Oedo Line branches (since it isn't a perfect ring line).

This is very iffy. Oedo Line actually has 0 branches, but one of its termini is also a transfer station to itself. This is a point of confusion for many people, though I fail to see why they seem to find it that complicated (because it isn't). Oedo Line is best described as a ring with a tail. This prevents it from being a loop line like Yamanote. It goes from Hikarigaoka - Tochou-Mae - Shinjuku (south exit) - Aoyama - Roppongi - Shiodome - Tsukishima - Ryogoku - Ueno-Okachimachi - Iidabashi - Shinjuku-west-exit (completely separate station from south exit one) - and back to Tochou-Mae, this time as a terminus. (I know this in detail because it is the train I take to work).

These aren't counted as different lines but as different branches, the same as in London.

You are confusing the facts, these are not actually branches because they are different companies. This is not called branch-service but integrated-service. This is different from London. The only actual branch service is Marunouchi Line. Asakusa and Chiyoda lines can be argued as branch service because their through-service connection points precede the actual terminus of their respective lines (and thus do not service those termini if operating through-service).

Also, the No.13 Line (currently called Yuurakuchou New Line, later being likely named Meiji Line) is currently still under construction. Partially open in a near-meaningless stretch of one station (or 3 if counting Yuurakuchou Line stops), the line will eventually go from Ikebukuro to Shibuya via Shinjuku, travellling parallel to the east of that stretch along the JR Lines' route.


And for comparing to London's airport services, keep in mind that Tokyo only has 2 airports, 1 of which is domestic exclusive (almost, some flights to Korea and such), both of which are very well serviced by rail.

The Line No.13 New Yurakucho Line is already in operation between Kotakemukaihara and Ikebukuro. As for the different branches, Tokyo has:

- 2 Marunouchi Line branches
- 4 Oedo Line branches (since it isn't a perfect ring line).
- 4 Asakusa Line branches: to Haneda Airport with Keikyu Airport Line through, to Misakiguchi with with Keikyu Line through, to Inba Medical Univ. with Hokuso Line through and to Narita Airport with Keisei Line through.
- Chiyoda Line has 2 northern branches: terminating at Kita Ayase and going to Toride with JR Joban Line through.
- Tozai Line has 2 eastern branches: going to Tsudanuma with JR Sobu Line through and to Toyo Katsutadai with Toyo Rapid Line through.
- Yurakucho Line has 2 western line branches: going to Shinrin Koen with Tobu Tojo Line through and to Hanno with Seibu Ikebukuro Line through.

These aren't counted as different lines but as different branches, the same as in London.You are right to a bit, but the other lines you mention aren't metro lines that are essentially part of the Tokyo network. There is a similar system where services carry on in London but these aren't part of the underground network.

There is:
- Only one Oedo Line as practically it goes around on itself - like a coil.
- Only one Asakusa Line as aren't the branches you talk about infact seperate lines from the Underground network.
- Only one Chiyoda Line (same as above - seperate from the actual underground rail network).
- Same with the Tozai Line.
- And same with the Yurakucho Line.

The only line to have branch lines is the Marunouchi Line. The others have continuations, but not in the sense of what the Tokyo underground railway extent is (otherwise they would be clearly labelled as so on all the maps).




In Tokyo, when the subway goes out of the subway section and becomes commuter rail, they have less trains than within the subway section. They are known as Express, Semi Express, Rapid, etc. services. The trains stop at the stations according to them. The other day, I meant to go to Shibuya but I slept in Hanzomon Line train and when I woke up I realized the train was in Tokyu Denentoshi Line's section (a couple of stops after Shibuya). I got off, and waited the train at the other side of the platform (still an underground station, though) to go back. A train came but it just passed the station and then I could catch the next one stopped at my station. I think I waited for 10 mins or so. It's rather similar to the RER's intervals beyond the subway section. But they aren't that bad, they are quite frequent around Tokyo though getting less frequent in the countrysides of Saitama, Ibaraki, Chiba, etc.There is a similar such system in place in London which is like the RER, its called Thameslink. Another 4 such 2,000km of lines (Crossrail 1, Crossrail 2, Crossrail 3 and possibly Crossrail 4) are extending on this.





Tokyo has 4.

To Narita:
- Narita Express (JR)
- Keisei Line

To Haneda:
- Tokyo Monorail
- Keihin Airport LineLondon has some 17 rail connections to its 5 international airports.




mic of Orion - Simply not true. Punctuality was poor and isn't perfect, but its across the network at around 90% The London Underground runs at 97%. The thing to remember is that there are blackspots on the network, but other parts of the network run like clockwork.

Also I think you'll find that on average its more expensive in Tokyo. You'll also find that it gets far more crowded in the mega stations in Tokyo to a far greater deal than those in London simply because the volumes moving through them are far far higher. Trains aren't much better, where up until recently people were being employed to push people into the actual train carriages. The added congestion has also forced the creation of female-only carriages due to the problem of chikans

This is very iffy. Oedo Line actually has 0 branches, but one of its termini is also a transfer station to itself. This is a point of confusion for many people, though I fail to see why they seem to find it that complicated (because it isn't). Oedo Line is best described as a ring with a tail. This prevents it from being a loop line like Yamanote. It goes from Hikarigaoka - Tochou-Mae - Shinjuku (south exit) - Aoyama - Roppongi - Shiodome - Tsukishima - Ryogoku - Ueno-Okachimachi - Iidabashi - Shinjuku-west-exit (completely separate station from south exit one) - and back to Tochou-Mae, this time as a terminus. (I know this in detail because it is the train I take to work).
This Oedo Line operation map gives you the answer how it operates.
http://www.metro.tokyo.jp/INET/OSHIRASE/2004/03/IMG/20e3h400_01.gif

There is a similar such system in place in London which is like the RER, its called Thameslink. Another 4 such 2,000km of lines (Crossrail 1, Crossrail 2, Crossrail 3 and possibly Crossrail 4) are extending on this.

No I meant Tokyo subways have the continuous services from a line to another like from Hanzomon Line to Tokyu Denentoshi Line, which resembles like RER though not exactly the same. Whereas London underground lines don't have anything continues from them. For example Central Line continues to what? Nothing. Thames Link or Cross Rail is not what I'm talking about. If anything, they are equivalent to JR Chuo Line, which goes past the central Tokyo.

Thameslink and Crossrail are the London equivalent of the Paris RER.

Also I'm unsure of exactly what you mean by the state of the tracks, most were electricuted many many years back and I am unsure of the company you are referring to that had trouble introducing new rolling stock because of the power supply.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2473103.stm


"Hundreds of new railway carriages destined for the South may have to stand idle, because £1bn of track improvements have yet to be carried out.
South West Trains' (SWT) new fleet of nearly 785 carriages will start arriving next week for testing.

The first train is to run in March 2003, but hundreds of miles of conductor rail and six electricity sub stations are needed before the full fleet can operate.

The work has yet to be approved. " - obviously these improvements have been done now!

Track replacement and engineering works are still going on. Granted the 'state of tracks' have improved but we will never be rid of huge curves in lines that reduce speed and the inferior 3rd rail system that exist much across the south east. We are left with a victorian system originally designed for profit. It's historic, it's dense - but it's nothing amazingly modern to write home about.

Thameslink and Crossrail are the London equivalent of the Paris RER.
I know. I'm just saying the Tokyo's system is different from that of London and Paris. Tokyo has 19 RER or Thameslink type suburban lines.

I think you'll end up finding that the work was actually completed when the first stock was rolling out. As more stock became available, the lines were upgraded on schedule. How do I know this? I know this because I was actually using the new stock back then when it 'wouldn't be ready' like the article said. I believe though there was a problem on one of the smaller lines, but the stock started running on line on time.

Also the network is old, but that doesn't mean it stays the same. With modernisation the network has changed to a significant degree. Will it be as great as brand new 1 year old railway lines. No, but for the circumstances and what we actually have...it isn't that bad. Its definately better overall than say New York or Paris, but has charm and architectural beauties that are exempt from Tokyo.

Its definately better overall than say New York or Paris, but has charm and architectural beauties that are exempt from Tokyo.
Tokyo's subway stations are absolutely boring and ugly with those "bathroom tiles". The trains themselves are ugly (stupid silver colored box trains). Also the power supply is overhead so it doesn't look very nice with full of cables sticking out everywhere. Tokyo definitely needs to improve the sense of architecture and to become more stylish. Nearly everything I see in Tokyo is damn ugly and tacky. But then the people are also problem, too. They read comics than newspaper on the train. I just doubt their mental age. We're retarded. The trains are always crammed up and not very comfortable with all those "women only" trains. But the Tokyo's subway fare is cheaper than London. It's 160Yen (80 Pence) for a ride (Tokyo Metro Lines) for short distance.

Tokyo's subway stations are absolutely boring and ugly with those "bathroom tiles". The trains themselves are ugly (stupid silver colored box trains).

The stations of Tokyo subways are not ugly, just mediocre and corny! (cleaner and bigger than London's, though)
Some of the stations of JR and private railways are hideous and vomitous. Yup, London' stations are much much more beautiful in general.

Tokyo's subway stations are absolutely boring and ugly with those "bathroom tiles". The trains themselves are ugly (stupid silver colored box trains). Also the power supply is overhead so it doesn't look very nice with full of cables sticking out everywhere. Tokyo definitely needs to improve the sense of architecture and to become more stylish. Nearly everything I see in Tokyo is damn ugly and tacky. But then the people are also problem, too. They read comics than newspaper on the train. I just doubt their mental age. We're retarded. The trains are always crammed up and not very comfortable with all those "women only" trains. But the Tokyo's subway fare is cheaper than London. It's 160Yen (80 Pence) for a ride (Tokyo Metro Lines) for short distance.

What does reading comics have to do with train quality? Each country has its brainless reading material... the US has gossip magazines, the UK has tabloids, Japan has comics.

Anyway, Japan is about efficiency and practicality. Nobody will argue that a Honda Civic is the epitome of auto design, but it runs damn fine. I'd rather have trains that run on time and frequently than eye candy... otherwise I'd move to Moscow or St. Petersburg. Then again, I'd also rather have trains that weren't packed like sardines.

This Oedo Line operation map gives you the answer how it operates.
http://www.metro.tokyo.jp/INET/OSHIRASE/2004/03/IMG/20e3h400_01.gif
Thank you for destroying your own argument about Oedo branch service. As the map clearly shows, there is no branch service on the Oedo Line, it is one continuous trip, Hikarigaoka to Tochoumae, via southern Tokyo to Ryougoku, and then over northern Tokyo to Tochoumae again. If you read the Japanese on Tochou-Mae track 3, it says "detraining only" (kousha-senyou). Some trains terminate elsewhere in the system (mainly Kiyosumi-Shirakawa), but that still doesn't mean branch service by any means.

Tokyo's subway stations are absolutely boring and ugly with those "bathroom tiles".

It is true that there's a bizarre obsession which mounting tiles in this country's industry. I know, I work in this construction drawing industry. However, not all stations are like that, Oedo Line is actually a good example of that. Oedo Iidabashi station is interesting if you use the non-transferable exit (or the "Ryogoku end" of the platform)

The trains themselves are ugly (stupid silver colored box trains).

Some of the trains are definately ass. Hanzoumon train type-2 cars are not so bad though. Asakusa Line trains are pretty slick too. But don't badmouth simple. There are enough London trains that are tacky because they have too much colour, and look like a travelling circus.

Also the power supply is overhead so it doesn't look very nice with full of cables sticking out everywhere.

Cables don't stick out everywhere. The overhead powersupply is superior to and safer than the archaic third-rail.

But then the people are also problem, too. They read comics than newspaper on the train. I just doubt their mental age. We're retarded.

I doubt your mental age for judging a book by its cover. Comics are not all targetted for kids. Manga is a respected artform and storytelling medium in Japan, and deal with a wide range of genres (pretty much any genre goes, that even includes porn), spanning an audience unfathomable to the western comic industry. You are extremely narrow-minded to judge people's intelligence by the medium of their reading.

But the Tokyo's subway fare is cheaper than London. It's 160Yen (80 Pence) for a ride (Tokyo Metro Lines) for short distance.


LONDON (Reuters) - The cost of cash tickets for travelling on London's bus and underground network will increase in 2006, the city's mayor said on Tuesday, in a bid to force commuters to use the cheaper and faster Oyster smartcard instead.

Under the new pricing, a single zone one cash ticket will cost three pounds, up from two, but it will cost 1.50 pounds with an Oyster card.


TOKYO: 80 pence
LONDON: 3 pounds!!

LONDON (Reuters) - The cost of cash tickets for travelling on London's bus and underground network will increase in 2006, the city's mayor said on Tuesday, in a bid to force commuters to use the cheaper and faster Oyster smartcard instead.

Under the new pricing, a single zone one cash ticket will cost three pounds, up from two, but it will cost 1.50 pounds with an Oyster card.


TOKYO: 80 pence
LONDON: 3 pounds!!

Yes but most people use oystercards or travelcards which are much cheaper.

Yes but most people use oystercards or travelcards which are much cheaper.
Tokyo does have travelcards too but they only cover the subways. In Tokyo the fares are determined by the distance. I prefer the zone system in London, which is MUCH easier. Many people queue up in front of the ticket machines and thus the stations are always overcrowded. I don't think the Tokyo's rails are user-friendly but the railway companies only think of themselves making money.

Tokyo :eek2:
http://bingoimage.naver.com/data3/bingo_62/imgbingo_50/sgfbojoge/24473/sgfbojoge_53.jpg

LONDON (Reuters) - The cost of cash tickets for travelling on London's bus and underground network will increase in 2006, the city's mayor said on Tuesday, in a bid to force commuters to use the cheaper and faster Oyster smartcard instead.

Under the new pricing, a single zone one cash ticket will cost three pounds, up from two, but it will cost 1.50 pounds with an Oyster card.


TOKYO: 80 pence
LONDON: 3 pounds!!

Not everyone wants an Oyster card.

I dont want big brother keeping tabs on where I travel.

This is what Oyster (and Hong Kong Octopus, etc) are destined to become.. Its just that the "people" who do want to track our every movements know that we would reject such technology "out of hand" if we knew what they were planning. So they are duping the sheople )into willingly doing their work.

Like lemmings committing suicide.

When I need them I buy paper tickets from the mainline railcos who are refusing to use Oyster because they have twigged that the original plans for sharing the travelcard monies according to actual use of their services (as determined by passengers using their oyster tickets) might result in them receiving less money than at present. Especially as many mainline suburban stations do not have electronic ticket barriers, and iit would be *very*
expensive to install such barriers at *every* station. Especially as they must have members of staff on duty at all tiimes the gates are in use (for security reasons, in case of an incident, to open the gates and allow emergency evacuation of the station).
Simon

("sheeple" - sheep people who just follow the herd without thinking about what else is going on, and why)

Tokyo does have travelcards too but they only cover the subways.

??
All the companies of subways, monorails, and private rails in Metro Tokyo use Passnet card, while JR East uses Suica card. And both (and Bus Card) are going to be consolidated next year.

??
All the companies of subways, monorails, and private rails in Metro Tokyo use Passnet card, while JR East uses Suica card. And both (and Bus Card) are going to be consolidated next year.
Yea finally Tokyo's Suica becomes equivalent to London's Oyster. London has (1 day) travel cards that cover all public transports including the buses while Tokyo's travelcards only cover subways. Passnet covers subways and private rails but not Tokyo monorail and JR lines, which is a shame. It's a prepaid card thus different from travelcards. London gives you much more for the price of 1 while Tokyo gives you exactly the amount you've just paid. So in the end Tokyo turns out to be more costly than London. What a shame.

In Tokyo, you can't even use creditcards or debitcards to buy the train tickets (from the ticket venders). That's another thing.

Tokyo does have travelcards too but they only cover the subways. In Tokyo the fares are determined by the distance. I prefer the zone system in London, which is MUCH easier. Many people queue up in front of the ticket machines and thus the stations are always overcrowded. I don't think the Tokyo's rails are user-friendly but the railway companies only think of themselves making money.
Them making money is accomplished by being user-friendly. I agree that the system of selecting your ticket needs to be simplified, mainly by either putting smaller maps beside every machine (instead of one big map spanning every 4 or 5 machines) and/or selecting the specified station (and route if more than one route will get you to the same place) electronically. The transfer tickets also need to be simplified, because there are a number of transfers it doesn't allow due to limitations of the current machines' programming.
A lot of foreigners will bitch and whine about Tokyo's system being hard to use. This is largely because of the language barrier, I imagine. The translated functionality of the system is, in my opinion, below minimum. However, as a Japanese speaker (not fluent, but advanced), the system is pretty damn good and comprehensive. I could give lots of examples.

Passnet and Suica have been explained by a previous poster already.

As for credit cards, who needs them? The system for credit cards is poor in general and pretty bad business sense for the Japanese system. Who needs credit cards though, when you can use your cel phone instead? Suica is already doubling as a credit card. Soon you will have the choice of buying tickets with your phone, on the fly.

Yea finally Tokyo's Suica becomes equivalent to London's Oyster. London has (1 day) travel cards that cover all public transports including the buses while Tokyo's travelcards only cover subways. Passnet covers subways and private rails but not Tokyo monorail and JR lines, which is a shame. It's a prepaid card thus different from travelcards. London gives you much more for the price of 1 while Tokyo gives you exactly the amount you've just paid. So in the end Tokyo turns out to be more costly than London. What a shame.
There are unlimited travel passes valid for one day, unlimited travel cards for a few weeks on all JR Lines for tourists (JR Rail Pass), other specials offered seasonally for the locals. Odakyuu also operates with the day-pass in conjunction with Tokyo Metro, so it is not restricted to only the subways. Also, when using the two subway systems for a single trip, Toei gives you a discount. 1.50LBP is still about 300 yen (that is almost the end-to-end cost on the Tozai line, one of the longest lines in the system).

In Tokyo, you can't even use creditcards or debitcards to buy the train tickets (from the ticket venders). That's another thing.

any problem?
http://www.jreast.co.jp/card/common/images/viewsuica.gif

any problem?
http://www.jreast.co.jp/card/common/images/viewsuica.gif
You can't even use creditcards/debitcards at the ticket vendors. One-day travel card in London is FAR SUPERIOR.

A lot of foreigners will bitch and whine about Tokyo's system being hard to use. This is largely because of the language barrier, I imagine. The translated functionality of the system is, in my opinion, below minimum. .
Who cares. The English speakers in Tokyo are after all at the level of "All your base are belong to us". The obvious embarassing Japanized English. It's bollocks. ( ﾟ,_･･ﾟ )

This is the 3rd largest metro network in the world, Tokyo.
http://www.tokyometro.jp/anzen/sharyo/kabegami/img1024/rosen02.gif

I get a headache just looking at it :)

I still want to know the station count for Tokyo!

Its crazy in numbers.I would guess over a 1000 if you include the Subway,Private rail lines,JR rail and other kinds of transport like the Monorail and a few light rail systems

The railway network of Tokyo is the biggest network and the biggest moneymaker in the world. That's why 7 major private railway companies exist.

Now I remember JR East is one of private railway companies besides the 7.

Private Railways that run into the JR Yamanote Line (and station connecting to Yamanote Line):

JR East (DUH!)
JR Central (Tokaido Shinkansen, Tokyo, Shinagawa)
Keio (Shinjuku)
Odakyu (Shinjuku)
Seibu (Shinjuku, Takadanobaba, Ikebukuro)
Tobu (Ikebukuro)
Keisei (Nippori, Ueno)
Keikyuu (Shinagawa)
Tokyu (Shibuya, Meguro, Gotanda)
Tokyo Metro (Various)
Toei Subway (Various)
Yurikamome (Shimbashi)
Tsukuba Express (Akihabara)
Tokyo Waterfront Railway (Osaki)

There's the odd service that doesn't go to the Yamanote Line as well, such as the Tama Monorail.

Tokyo's station count includes somewhere in the neighborhood of 615 UNIQUE stations (if transfers are counted for every line servicing a station, this number could easily get near 1000). This count was compiled by me personally, a breakdown by operator can be made available on request (just have to digitize my notes).

Yokohama does well with some dedicated services specially intensifying its own network including most notably Sotetsu and the Yokohama Subway.

The HQ of JR Central is in Nagoya. The number of private railway companies in Tokyo is 8. That's why we can buy only these stocks in Tokyo SE.

Tokyo
The busiest railway system in the world
yamanote line

TOKYO

The HQ of JR Central is in Nagoya. The number of private railway companies in Tokyo is 8. That's why we can buy only these stocks in Tokyo SE.
I wasn't saying anything about where companies are based, I was listing which providers hit the Yamanote Line, and JR Central owns the Toukaidou Shinkansen (it makes 80-something % of its entire operating revenue, it's practically all they've got), therefore JR Central serves Tokyo at the Yamanote Line.
Some of the providers listed are not listed on the SE because they have 80% or more of their shares owned by the operator itself or its partners/branch businesses, Seibu being one of these cases and is therefore not on the SE, despite being a private operator. I think public corporations are not listed, so the Toei Subways won't be on there. Other public associations function like private railways but aren't on the SE, such as the Tokyo Waterfront Railway Rinkai Line.

Seibu got kicked off the exchange listings because the parent company was doing some shady business.

Seibu got kicked off the exchange listings because the parent company was doing some shady business.
Yeah, they were trying to hide the fact that 80% of the shares were held by company execs through cross-company relations, it was very shady, but the fact is that 80% were held by execs and locked away from trading making them ineligible, it wasn't purely the fact that it was shady that got them knocked off, as I understood it anyway, it was the 80% angle.

Seibu got kicked off the exchange listings because the parent company was doing some shady business.

Seibu actually has never made a decent car. The reason Seibu's cars are yellow is that they used to carry urine of Tokyoites to Saitama as manure for the fields. I dislike an unpolished bedroom town such as Saitama.

By the way Tokyu 9000 Series and Keio 8000 Series are masterpieces of commuter railway cars. How beautiful these cars are. :eek2:

http://www7.ocn.ne.jp/~hoore/tokyu/9000/9104.JPG http://ja.wikipedia.org/upload/thumb/6/61/Keio-EC8000.jpg/800px-Keio-EC8000.jpg