Powerful Naval Forces of Europe

[Prometheus]

Turkish Navy is a no-nonsense serious navy (like the Japanese Navy)

Spanish Navy for instance is a nonsense show-off navy

Spanish Navy

1 aircraft carrier
4 destroyers
15 frigates
8 submarines
0 large missile ships

Turkish Navy

28 frigates
19 submarines
23 large missile ships

Asim, where do you get your numbers from?

TURKISH NAVY

4-Gaziantep (OH Perry) class frigates
6-Muavenet (Knox) class ASW frigates
4-Barbaros class (MEKO 200TN type) frigates
4-Yavuz class (MEKO 200 type) frigates
=18 Frigates

6-Preveze class (Type 209/1400) class coastal submarines
6-Atilay class (Type 209/1200) coastal submarines
=12 Submarines

The Hizir Reis class and Burak Reis class subs are from the 1940's and 50's (of which there are 5 total.

[Prometheus]

Yeah, let's talk about the powerful Hellenic Armed Forces.

Talk Asim. Ask one of your THK pilots to tell you about how many times they have turned around to see a Greek on his tail.

You speak about Knox class frigates and you are proud? Greece retired her 4 Knox class ships over 5 years ago.

Let me add to your Turkish Navy photos. Here is one of your Barbaros as seen through the periscope of a submarine from the modest Hellenic Navy.
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=30176&stc=1

HELLENIC NAVY
http://www.hellenicnavy.gr/upload/newsphotos/askisi_070105.2.jpg
http://www.hellenicnavy.gr/upload/newsphotos/askisi_070105.1.jpg
http://www.hellenicnavy.gr/upload/newsphotos/seasparrow_5.jpg
http://www.hellenicnavy.gr/upload/newsphotos/fvkas02.jpg
http://www.hellenicnavy.gr/upload/newsphotos/kataigis05_09.jpg
http://www.hellenicnavy.gr/upload/newsphotos/bolh2104_3.jpg
http://www.hellenicnavy.gr/upload/newsphotos/bolh2104.jpg
http://www.hellenicnavy.gr/upload/newsphotos/bolh2104_2.jpg

[Prometheus]

http://www.hellenicnavy.gr/images/Photos/medium/thielaIII04_01.jpg
http://www.hellenicnavy.gr/images/Photos/medium/nhrhis05_01.jpg
http://www.hellenicnavy.gr/images/Photos/medium/nhrhis05_06.jpg
http://www.hellenicnavy.gr/images/Photos/medium/diaylos_02.jpg
http://www.hellenicnavy.gr/images/dykPhotos/kyma%20_26-4-04/DSC_8020.jpg
http://www.hellenicnavy.gr/images/dykPhotos/kyma%20_26-4-04/DSC_3860.jpg
http://www.hellenicnavy.gr/images/353mnas/hires/h6.jpg

[Tekir]

Turkish navy is actually designed for just guarding our coastlines. We do not have great budjet, we do not have great trechnology. Our navy can not be used in an offensive action, because we do not have air defence. Our most advanced air defence system is SM-1' s. It is true our navy is not powerful but at least it can protect our coasts. Both Hellenic and Turkish navies suck, both has zero airdefence and will never have airdefence frigates, I suppose.

I would say, French Navy is the best because of their carrier. I do not think British carriers are that advanced. And more importantly French fighters will have exocets which are really dangerous.

After French, British comes. I can not compare the rest. A combined Euro Navy (French-British-Netherlands-etc...) may be powerful but I do not think it will be as powerful as the Japanese (although they do not have carriers) or off course American.

American Navy is something outclasses the others. It will take seconds for Americans to destroy the combined fleet of the rest of the world. :D

[Prometheus]

Turkish navy is actually designed for just guarding our coastlines. We do not have great budjet, we do not have great trechnology. Our navy can not be used in an offensive action, because we do not have air defence. Our most advanced air defence system is SM-1' s. It is true our navy is not powerful but at least it can protect our coasts. Both Hellenic and Turkish navies suck, both has zero airdefence and will never have airdefence frigates, I suppose.

Well Tekir yes, the Hellenic and Turkish navies are both designed to protect their coasts. Whereas our British and French (for example) counterparts have military/economic/political interests around the world which means they require a true blue water navy.


But I wouldn't say either "suck". They are well equipped to carry out their specific missions. And don't bet on them not having AAW Frigates in the future. Both navies have this requirement on the top of their lists. Greece had a deal for U.S KIDD class destroyers but cancelled the deal because the U.S would not release the SM-2 with it and offered the SM-1 (the same missiles on board the Adams class vessels).

But things might be changing....

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=4666953&postcount=91

[Matthieu]

Another future prospect, the Gowinf 170 Corvette from DCN too.

I don't have much infos on it, like how many will be ordered, it's just a prospect so far.

http://www.dcn.fr/produits/img/corvette-seg-moyen_visu.jpg

http://members.home.nl/7seas/Gowind_170_3.JPG

[mic of Orion]

Another future prospect, the Gowinf 170 Corvette from DCN too.

I don't have much infos on it, like how many will be ordered, it's just a prospect so far.

http://www.dcn.fr/produits/img/corvette-seg-moyen_visu.jpg

http://members.home.nl/7seas/Gowind_170_3.JPG

wow, looks fantastic, lol, I hope someone orders it, Croatia is looking to get 3-4 fast coverts soon, a contract valued at 250-300 million is for grabs (not before 2008), Poland recently got 4 new corvettes from Meko, and Belgium is also looking for new replacement corvettes for few of its frigates (2007/8)...

I Hope it gets from board to reality cose it look very sleek...

To Turkish and Greek contributors, guys everybody here knows what your navies look like, most ppl here are intelligent enough to ce spam and trolling attempts, guys no offence if you going to post pics of same ships million times over plz do it in your forums; so for other ppl have chance putting there ships up, I would love to ce more of Scandinavian ships, Eastern European navies and of course any news from other navies this includes you to, but no more same all ships...

Thanx...

[Ning]

I still don't understand what is the point of spending so much money in army. If I were president, I would scrap everything in the army except the nukes (to avoid being invided) and the intelligence (for terrorism : the real war of this century). It would reduce the taxes to make a more liberal country where companies, low unemployment rate, good education and healthcare are the priorities. Influence on world stage is more and more due to the size of the economy and less and less to the size of the army.

[Geroplatanos]

I still don't understand what is the point of spending so much money in army. If I were president, I would scrap everything in the army except the nukes (to avoid being invided) and the intelligence (for terrorism : the real war of this century). It would reduce the taxes to make a more liberal country where companies, low unemployment rate, good education and healthcare are the priorities. Influence on world stage is more and more due to the size of the economy and less and less to the size of the army.

So we should all have nukes! :)
Nice idea !!!

(Intelligence = terrorism and vice versa) -----> Except for people who still believe that the "bad terrorists" had never any connection with intelligence services.... lol

As about the other , generally i agree with you :)

[ASIMOV]

@ Prometheus

Turkish Navy:

8 Oliver Hazard Perry frigates (all 8 are delivered a long time ago, plus 2 more as spare parts hulks)
6 Knox frigates
4 MEKO 200TN frigates
4 MEKO 200 frigates
6 D'Estienne D'Orves (A-69) light frigates

TOTAL: 28 frigates

(Note: The 15 frigates of the Spanish Navy also include the four Descubierta class light frigates with the same size of Turkey's six A-69 light frigates. Otherwise, Spain has only 11 frigates and Turkey has only 22 frigates.)

[mic of Orion]

I still don't understand what is the point of spending so much money in army. If I were president, I would scrap everything in the army except the nukes (to avoid being invided) and the intelligence (for terrorism : the real war of this century). It would reduce the taxes to make a more liberal country where companies, low unemployment rate, good education and healthcare are the priorities. Influence on world stage is more and more due to the size of the economy and less and less to the size of the army.


I agree 100%... Expect no nukes, I hate use of any WMD's

:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

[Matthieu]

I still don't understand what is the point of spending so much money in army. If I were president, I would scrap everything in the army except the nukes (to avoid being invided) and the intelligence (for terrorism : the real war of this century). It would reduce the taxes to make a more liberal country where companies, low unemployment rate, good education and healthcare are the priorities. Influence on world stage is more and more due to the size of the economy and less and less to the size of the army.

I think the opposite of you.

Looks at the 09/11, terrorists attacked the USA and the Talibans protected them, the USA couldn't use their nukes, they had nukes and they were attacked anyway, dissuasion doesn't work when the attackers hide behind civils.

The USA used their projection forces to smash the Talibans and it worked very well.

Now a question, if tomorow a terrorist strike kill 3000 people in Strasbourg, people you know, and that we have only our nukes to answer against, let's say Algeria, who host terrorists (it's an hypothetical scenario). What will you do, Nuke them? They could strike again later if you do nothing? Those weapons we're using aren't obsolete, we are taking the good way by evolving more and more to a projection power and that's the good thing. I know it's expensive, but neither nukes or intelligence can protect us forever.

[ASIMOV]

@ Prometheus

Turkish Navy:

8 Oliver Hazard Perry frigates (all 8 are delivered a long time ago, plus 2 more as spare parts hulks)
6 Knox frigates
4 MEKO 200TN frigates
4 MEKO 200 frigates
6 D'Estienne D'Orves (A-69) light frigates

TOTAL: 28 frigates

(Note: The 15 frigates of the Spanish Navy also include the four Descubierta class light frigates with the same size of Turkey's six A-69 light frigates. Otherwise, Spain has only 11 frigates and Turkey has only 22 frigates.)

A recent improvement in the Turkish Navy was the addition of sixteen Sikorsky S-70-B2 Sea Hawk helicopters, armed with Hellfire II missiles and Mk.64 torpedoes.

They replaced the sixteen AB 212 helicopters on the eight Perry class frigates and eight MEKO 200/200TN class frigates.

[Geroplatanos]

Asimov , it is nice of you to post this info although some of us who have a closer relation to the naval stories , know all these things.

If you have a look at the first page of this thread , you will see a short list of the most important european navies , according to their capabilities.

I think that no-one here has objected to this list , so it has no meaning to make all of us comparisons which dont stand.

As about your list , if i was you i would put out the Knox ships (totally outdated)
and the smallest corvettes D'Orves (A-69) since they are not in the cetegory of Frigates.
So the basis of the fleet is actually the Meko and the Perry frigates . I prefer the german Meko , because of the quality of construction and their better capabilities compared to Perry frigates (though the american frigates have the advantage of SM-1 missile use , which has longer range then the classic Sea Sparrow)

[ASIMOV]

The six Knox class frigates still use AB 212 helicopters though.

Knox ain't that old - just needs some upgrade. Countries like Spain and Turkey still use them.

http://www.warships.ru/Turkey/Frigates/F256.jpg

Aviso A-69 was classified as a "frigate" by the French Navy.

To be exact, it's a "light frigate" armed with Exocet SSM and ASW capabilities.

http://www.netmarine.net/bat/avisos/cdtbirot/photo04.jpg

But the Turkish Navy cleverly classifies it as a "corvette", otherwise Turkey will be breaching the Aegean Balance of Power Agreement with Greece, which is closely guarded by the United States :D

But in the end, the United States is the Republic of Henry Kissinger ;)

[ASIMOV]

:kiss: http://www.aish.com/graphics/nav/title_jewishWorld_400x48.gif :hug:

[ASIMOV]

:love:

http://www.janes.com/defence/news/jmr/jmr050609_1_n.shtml

[ASIMOV]

:love:

http://www.khazaria.com

[Geroplatanos]

But in the end, the United States is the Republic of Henry Kissinger

The big truth.... unfortunatelly for the rest of the world....

http://www.avalanchejournal.com/images/112802/PI_BUSH_KISSINGER.jpg


"The illegal we can do right now; the unconstitutional will take a little longer."
Henry Kissinger


http://indyweek.com/durham/2001-07-04/sumreading9-1.jpg

Anyway i stop it here , cause i deviate from the subject. :)

[ASIMOV]

Khazar Turks created the largest Jewish state in history.

Judaism was the first monotheistic religion accepted by the Turks.

Many Jews who perished in Auschwitz had distant Turkic ancestry.

Our relationship with Israel is not just political.

[mic of Orion]

Aviso A-69 was classified as a "frigate" by the French Navy.

To be exact, it's a "light frigate" armed with Exocet SSM and ASW capabilities.

http://www.netmarine.net/bat/avisos/cdtbirot/photo04.jpg

But the Turkish Navy cleverly classifies it as a "corvette", otherwise Turkey will be breaching the Aegean Balance of Power Agreement with Greece, which is closely guarded by the United States :D

But in the end, the United States is the Republic of Henry Kissinger ;)


they are corvettes, in French navy they where small escort frigates (they entered service in late 60's, which makes them on pair with very large gun boat, 16 of them where built...

They where replaced by La Fayette Frigates

this ships are so old and so rubbish, French must have been exulted when they sold them to Turkey; yippee, we got one sucker who actually wants to but this piece of s**t, lol

Turkey would have been better without it, trust me, no one in Europe wanted them, this should have given you a clue not to buy them, lol... :) :)

[ASIMOV]

We bought them for temporary use - until the Milgem project is completed:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/milgem.htm

The six A-69 light frigates will be replaced by twelve Milgem light frigates based on (but more advanced than) the MEKO A-100 (Blohm & Voss)

http://www.ssm.gov.tr/library/images/photos/deniz/milgem_d04.jpg

MILGEM

Length: 90 m
Displacement: 1600 tons
Maximum speed: 27 knots
Crew: 80
Aviation: 1 helicopter

Quantity: 12

News on Milgem from today's Hürriyet newspaper (5 July 2005):

http://www.hurriyetim.com.tr/haber/0,,sid~1@w~1@nvid~425466,00.asp

Türkiye artık kendi savaş gemisini üretecek

http://www.hurriyetim.com.tr/displayimage/0,,133333,00.jpg

Türkiye, Deniz Kuvvetleri Komutanlığı ve Savunma Sanayi Müsteşarlığı’nın ortak projesi Milli Gemi Projesi (MİLGEM) ile ilk yerli malı savaş gemisini üretecek.

MİLGEM Projesi’nin birinci gemisi olacak örnek geminin, dizayn ve İstanbul Tersanesi Komutanlığı’nda inşası dahil 7 yıl, müteakip geminin inşasının da 7.5-12 yılda gerçekleştirilmesi tahmin ediliyor.

TÜRKİYE, Deniz Kuvvetleri Komutanlığı ve Savunma Sanayi Müsteşarlığı’nın ortak projesi Milli Gemi Projesi (MİLGEM) ile ilk yerli malı savaş gemisini üretecek.

MİLGEM çerçevesinde üretimi planlanan savaş gemisi dün Deniz Kuvvetleri Komutanı Oramiral Özden Örnek ve Savunma Sanayi Müsteşarı Murad Bayar'ın katıldığı bir toplantıyla kamuoyuna tanıtıldı.

Savunma Sanayii Müsteşarı Murad Bayar, toplantıda 2010 yıllarının ana harp sisteminin sanayiciye açıldığını, somut bir proje olan MİLGEM’in net bir harekat ihtiyacından hareketle finansmanının planlandığını belirtti.

Projenin, özgün tasarım ve yerli üretim yoluyla silahlı kuvvetlerin ihtiyacının karşılanması konseptinin ideal bir örneğini oluşturduğunu ifade eden Bayar, şöyle devam etti:

‘Bu geminin tasarımından inşasına, hammaddeden atış idare sistemine, proje yönetiminden lojistik desteğine tamamı Türkiye içinde, yerli imkanlarla sanayimizle silahlı kuvvetlerimizle birlikte yapılacak. Bu işin arkasında çok net bir irade var. Daha önce gemilerimizi hibe ile alırdık. Sonra proje uygulaması gelişti, tasarım ve sistemleri dışardan alınarak gemileri burada inşa etmeye başladık. Görülüyor ki o gemi burada da inşa edilse yerli katkısı son derece sınırlı kalıyor.’

Projeye bir prototip gemiyle başlayacaklarını ifade eden Bayar, ‘Silahlı kuvvetlerimizle birlikte deneyeceğiz. Başarılı olduğunda geriye kalan toplam 11 gemi için siparişleri ve kaynağımızı bağlayacağız’ dedi.

MİLGEM Projesi’nin birinci gemisi olacak örnek geminin, dizayn ve İstanbul Tersanesi Komutanlığı’nda inşası dahil 7 yıl, müteakip geminin inşasının da 7.5-12 yılda gerçekleştirilmesi tahmin ediliyor.

Örnek geminin bazı özellikleri ise şunlar; Gemi boyutu 90 metre, deplasmanı 1600 ton civarında, maksimum sürati 27 knot, azami devamlı sürati 25 knot, mürettebat sayısı 80. Gemi ağır deniz koşullarında görev yapabilecek kabiliyete ve 10 tonluk bir helikopterin iniş-kalkış yapabileceği helikopter platformuna sahip olacak.

Ayrıca görev ihtiyaçlarını karşılayacak günümüz teknolojisine sahip gelişmiş silah, komuta-kontrol, sensör ve elektronik sistemler ile donatılacak.

Uzaktan tespit/teşhis imkanlarının azaltılması ve güdümlü mermi, mayın gibi silahlardan etkilenme ihtimalini en aza indirmek maksadıyla, gemi, radar kesit alanı, kızılötesi iz, akustik ve manyetik iz azaltıcı teknolojiler kullanılarak dizayn ve inşa edilecek.

[ASIMOV]

The twelve Milgem (advanced MEKO A-100) frigates will replace the six Knox and six A-69 frigates.

8 O. H. Perry
8 MEKO 200/200TN
12 Milgem MEKO A-100

TOTAL: 28

[Ubo]

http://www.icej.org/cgi-local/view.cgi?type=headline&artid=2004/06/25/203129337

And you should see how good the relations are between Israel and Kurds Asipoo. :)

[ASIMOV]

Now that's what I call a Mercedes-Benz Navy

http://www.mercedes-benz.com/content/media_library/mbcom/general/brandmark.object-Single-MEDIA.tmp/logo.gif

[Ubo]

It's just a case of Israel making new friends and Turkey feeling left out.

:hug: :love: :kiss: :drunk: :whisper: --------------- :cry:

[ASIMOV]

As long as we have our Mercedes-Benz ships, I don't care.

[Ubo]

Are those Turkish ships made by Mercedes-Benz?

[ASIMOV]

Daimler-Chrysler

[ASIMOV]

If I were the captain, I would add a Mercedes star in front :D

[ASIMOV]

Then comes the TF-2000 project

http://strategis.ic.gc.ca/epic/internet/inimr-ri.nsf/fr/gr117702f.html

Turkish TF-2000 anti-air warfare (AAW) and command & control frigate project is active within the Turkish Navy. Project comprises local building of 4 AAW and 2 AAW-C&C frigates at Gölcük Naval Shipyard and private shipyards between 2005-2010. Each frigate is estimated to cost $500 million.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/tf-2000.htm

It is known that the German shipyard Blohm+Voss is strongly interested in the TF-2000 anti-air warfare frigate program, and proposed the Meko A-200 class state-of-the art frigate which will be equipped with Signaal APAR solid state phased array radar system or Lockheed Martin SPY-1F AEGIS system. The Standard Missile SM-2 area defence missile and RAM ship self-defence missile will equip the TF-2000s.

6 TF-2000 (based on MEKO A-200)
8 Oliver Hazard Perry
8 MEKO 200/200TN
12 Milgem (based on MEKO A-100)

TOTAL: 34

[Tekir]

Then comes the TF-2000 project

http://strategis.ic.gc.ca/epic/internet/inimr-ri.nsf/fr/gr117702f.html

Turkish TF-2000 anti-air warfare (AAW) and command & control frigate project is active within the Turkish Navy. Project comprises local building of 4 AAW and 2 AAW-C&C frigates at Gölcük Naval Shipyard and private shipyards between 2005-2010. Each frigate is estimated to cost $500 million.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/tf-2000.htm

It is known that the German shipyard Blohm+Voss is strongly interested in the TF-2000 anti-air warfare frigate program, and proposed the Meko A-200 class state-of-the art frigate which will be equipped with Signaal APAR solid state phased array radar system or Lockheed Martin SPY-1F AEGIS system. The Standard Missile SM-2 area defence missile and RAM ship self-defence missile will equip the TF-2000s.

6 TF-2000 (based on MEKO A-200)
8 Oliver Hazard Perry
8 MEKO 200/200TN
12 Milgem (based on MEKO A-100)

TOTAL: 34

That would be a great Navy TBH, and can protect even4-6 LPD' s which would make it one of the strongest amphibious force of Europe.

But do we need 6 AAW frigates? I do not think so. I think we are decreasing that number to 3. Or buying more Perry frigates and apply an SM 2 upgrade...

I think to counter possible naval assoults, we should invest on AIP subs. These silent subs are great headache for any kind of floating vessel. :D

[Tekir]

the project that Asimov mentioned, MILGEM is very important. UNlike TF 2000, it is a national project :D, it sure will be influenced by foreign designs such as A-100 Mekos but that would be a different type of influence.

All control systems, installations, C4I (or C3 or whatever)' s will be designed and produced by Turkey. Probably engine will have MTU license and most of the weapons will be purchased. But everything is Made in Turkey. It will be submarine hunter, not a surface to surface warfare ship. Probably they will take the place of Perries and Avisos.

Well some pals here such as French may underestimatye this project but we are a poor country, who lacks technology. This is a very very big step for us...

Surface to Surface warfare job will be Meko' s task.

I think, some Perries will be upgraded instead of purcasing TF2000s for AAW warfare.

[ASIMOV]

According to the latest news there will be six TF-2000s (four AAW, two AAW-C&C) which means that the economic forecast is good :)

Or that we're polishing Merkel's apples :D

[SHiRO]

Turkish navy is actually designed for just guarding our coastlines. We do not have great budjet, we do not have great trechnology. Our navy can not be used in an offensive action, because we do not have air defence. Our most advanced air defence system is SM-1' s. It is true our navy is not powerful but at least it can protect our coasts. Both Hellenic and Turkish navies suck, both has zero airdefence and will never have airdefence frigates, I suppose.

I would say, French Navy is the best because of their carrier. I do not think British carriers are that advanced. And more importantly French fighters will have exocets which are really dangerous.

After French, British comes. I can not compare the rest. A combined Euro Navy (French-British-Netherlands-etc...) may be powerful but I do not think it will be as powerful as the Japanese (although they do not have carriers) or off course American.
Despite being very capable and modern, the Japanese navy is exclusively defensive also (likewise the rest of the Japanese military, which is aptly named Defense force). They have no offensive capabilities.
Now, I agree that in terms of powerful navies it is right up there with France and the UK (below the USN of course), but it is not just as powerful and capable as a combined European navy. It simply doesn't have the equiptment for certain tasks (just like the Japanese didn't provide for their own security in Iraq, a small country like the Netherlands had to do that for them).
It's all about their constitution preventing them to own or operate offensive equiptment. It's complicated...



American Navy is something outclasses the others. It will take seconds for Americans to destroy the combined fleet of the rest of the world. :D
Of course this isn't even remotely true. Even the USN wouldn't stand a chance against all other navies in the world.
Hell, in NATO exercises, lone diesel electric subs have managed to take out entire carriergroups, so this is basically nonsense...

[Tekir]

I think 6 AAW frigates are more than what we need.

Shiro, I am not an expert on the todays warfare, I heard AIP subs are great headache for US carrier groups (and because of that they rented an AIP sub from Swedish navy, for training against it), but, is it really true they smashed all carrier groups?

That off course changes everything.

[willo]

@ Prometheus

Turkish Navy:

8 Oliver Hazard Perry frigates (all 8 are delivered a long time ago, plus 2 more as spare parts hulks)
6 Knox frigates
4 MEKO 200TN frigates
4 MEKO 200 frigates
6 D'Estienne D'Orves (A-69) light frigates

TOTAL: 28 frigates

(Note: The 15 frigates of the Spanish Navy also include the four Descubierta class light frigates with the same size of Turkey's six A-69 light frigates. Otherwise, Spain has only 11 frigates and Turkey has only 22 frigates.)


spanish navy would kick your asses


anyway turkey is not part of europe so i don't why we are discussing about the turkish navy in this thread

[ASIMOV]

Spanish Navy should first reach our coast.

That is, if it'll manage to escape the wrath of +700 jets.

With only 4 destroyers, 15 frigates and 8 submarines to protect it, the Spanish aircraft carrier is a sitting duck for a fleet of 28 frigates, 19 submarines and 23 missile ships.

The quantity of SSMs in the Turkish Navy overwhelmingly outnumbers the Spanish Navy.

Our 23 missile ships would be enough to finish the job, never mind the frigates and submarines.

[ASIMOV]

http://www.ssa.gov/history/pics/ottoengrave.jpg

[mic of Orion]

Spanish Navy should first reach our coast.

That is, if it'll manage to escape the wrath of +700 jets.

With only 4 destroyers, 15 frigates and 8 submarines to protect it, the Spanish aircraft carrier is a sitting duck for a fleet of 28 frigates, 19 submarines and 23 missile ships.

The quantity of SSMs in the Turkish Navy overwhelmingly outnumbers the Spanish Navy.

Our 23 missile ships would be enough to finish the job, never mind the frigates and submarines.


Actually current Turkish navy is pathetic, obsolete and outdated, Turkish Navy 28 Frigates are obsolete ships you can't even threaten your Neighbours across the bay... And with good jamming equipment most and latest Frigates and Destroyers poses you can jamm missiles and sensors on Turkish ships with ease, Most advanced submarines with in Turkish navy are Type 209 (ok submarines enterd serivice in 80's) but they are now old, over 20 years and can be easily detected with latest active array sonar's. I admit Spanish navy has many old ships as well but Spain is replacing them and soon they would have very respectable force of latest ships... Of all aircrafts Turkey has, only F16 are really cable of front line duty, others are obsolete and require substantial upgrade, I know some where upgraded but not to fight naval task force but rather for ground attack...

In possible limited conflict say Spain v Turkey it would be bad for both sides but Turkey would loose more ships and fighters in process, One Bazan Class Frigate (destroyer) can easily attack several fighters and ships at the same time.

Bazan Class frigates are well armed ships with Phased Array system (AEGIS) and 48 VLS Missile silos system... in ready to fire,, armed with latest Harpoon derivatives they could engage Turkish ships at far longer range successfully. Turkish ships would be sank before they know what hit them and if they did detect Spanish force and sent aircrafts to engage them, aircrafts would be destroyed before they could actually lock on ships as 48 Standard SM-2MR SAM's is more than adequate to deal with 20 or so aircrafts, but as you know one ship can be used as command and control ship for the fleet, al ships in the fleet can use data management system as a result manage more effectively wapons systems, they can fire there SAM's and destroy more fighters in a process, meaning closest ships can fire there SAM's at the pleasure while one is finished and restocking its VLS, other ships take over its role and fire, isn't that great, lol...

All thanx to Phased Array AEGIS system Spain got from USA, lol...
In short Spain could kick some ass and there is nothing Turkey cold do unless attacked with en-mass and hope for the best, naturally it would pointless to attack with submarines as they would be met with equally Spanish and as they are not AIP's (the Spanish ones are) you'd be dead in a water...

You are loosing this war, and Spain hasn't even used its fighters yet... Suffice to say, Turkish navy is good for war with Syria or Egypt but fighting more advanced force would be very difficult if not costly and deadly...

Turkey might not get latest design and technology transfer as to OESC limitation agreement, nothing to do with USA but general agreement on deployed forces in Europe, signed after the Cold war in 1991... To avoid build up of forces and armaments in Europe and avoid any future conflicts, but also to prevent Greek response to your latest technology...

and plz. stop spamming this thread with Turkish BS, use Turkish forums for that, unless you aren't welcomed there either? lol,,, :)

[ASIMOV]

http://www.wowturkey.com/forum/images/smiles/type.gif

:|

[ASIMOV]

:pet:

[ASIMOV]

Some basic mathematics

Spanish Navy

1 aircraft carrier
4 destroyers
15 frigates
8 submarines (without SSM capability)

Anti-ship missiles: 136 Harpoon SSM

TOTAL: 136 SSMs

Turkish Navy

28 frigates
19 submarines
23 missile ships

Anti-ship missiles: 336 Harpoon SSM, 16 Penguin SSM, 12 Exocet SSM

TOTAL: 364 SSMs

[Jai-C]

mic of Orion is absolutely right - Turkey is an Ally that doesn't need to be equipped with latest and up-to-date technology. And as long as you guys don't start to develop your own weapons this is not going to change...

[VelesHomais]

http://www.mil.gov.ua/images/structure/vms_1.jpg

http://www.mil.gov.ua/images/structure/vms_2.jpg

http://www.mil.gov.ua/images/structure/vms_3.jpg

http://www.mil.gov.ua/images/structure/vms_4.jpg

http://www.mil.gov.ua/images/structure/vms_5.jpg

http://www.mil.gov.ua/images/structure/vms_9.jpg

http://foto.sevastopol.info/gallery/flot/photos/ukrships/sagaydachn.jpg

http://foto.sevastopol.info/gallery/flot/photos/ukrships/rivne.jpg

http://foto.sevastopol.info/gallery/flot/photos/ukrships/ukrflit.jpg

http://foto.sevastopol.info/gallery/flot/photos/ukrships/ukr_submarine.jpg

http://foto.sevastopol.info/gallery/flot/photos/ukrships/ukrpod12.jpg

http://foto.sevastopol.info/gallery/flot/photos/ukrships/ukrgrd1.jpg

http://foto.sevastopol.info/gallery/flot/photos/ukrships/ukrpod3.jpg

http://foto.sevastopol.info/gallery/flot/photos/ukrships/ukrpod2.jpg

http://foto.sevastopol.info/gallery/flot/photos/parad/rocket00.jpg



:D

[Tekir]

Asimov, today I read in the new defence website of Turkish Defence guys that Greece is planning Arleigh Burke and Turkey is planning to purchase Spruance class destoryers. Now Turkey is very close, we got the permission from the congress.

2 New Spruance are coming. ;)

[Tekir]

I still say, US can kick rest of the world in open battle. And if rest of the world sinks one carrier, I buy 24 Heineken to Shiro. :D

Dudes, in a battle time, these Yanks will produce tens of carriers. Really industrial power of US is out of this world. Be friend of them.

[Tekir]

I still say, US can kick rest of the world in open battle. And if rest of the world sinks one carrier, I buy 24 Heineken to Shiro. :D

Dudes, in a battle time, these Yanks will produce tens of carriers. Really industrial power of US is out of this world. Be friend of them.

[ASIMOV]

Spruance ain't bad

[mic of Orion]

Asimov, today I read in the new defence website of Turkish Defence guys that Greece is planning Arleigh Burke and Turkey is planning to purchase Spruance class destoryers. Now Turkey is very close, we got the permission from the congress.

2 New Spruance are coming. ;)


this is very stupid notion, first off all Spruance are very old Destroyers, being replaced by Arleigh Burke Class, and US won't sell its Areleigh Burk's as they are to few of them, strange story to say the least.

Turkey won't get any new ships until they meet OESC limit, and this involves all capitol warships, I think Turkish and Greek navies are limited to respective numbers I think it is 18-24 ships each this includes Corvettes, Frigates and Destroyers... I am sure Turks can get away with few (obsolete) ships but taking a piss with 4-6 more would only make things very dangerous for the regional issues and could only end up penalising Turkey...

This could include, stop of sale of all military equipment to Turkey, political reprimands and stop to all EU negotiations...

I think Turkey would ce where its priorities lies, in building its military or trying to play vital role as a bridge between cultures...

[ASIMOV]

Pentagon file regarding the transfer of Spruance class destroyers Cushing (DD-985) and O'Bannon (DD-987) to Turkey (9 May 2005)

http://www.defenselink.mil/dodgc/olc/docs/May9.pdf

The exact page: Page 3

[Geroplatanos]

I dont see the meaning behind these stupid comparisons.
Its ok if someone posts news from his country's navy but lets stay there and avoid useless discussions about "hypothetical" naval battles between NATO members!!
:)

[ASIMOV]

These are large destroyers with the size of a cruiser

http://www.tpub.com/fcv2/14099_files/image038.jpg

Displacement: 9,000-9,400 tons full load (DD 997: approx. 9900)

Dimensions: 171.6 x 16.7 x 8.8 meters

Propulsion: 4 LM2500 gas turbines, 2 shafts, 80,000 shp, 30+ knots

Crew: approx. 350 + 40 helo detachment

Radar: SPS-40 2-D air search (DD 997: SPS-49(V)2), SPQ-9A search, Mk23 target acquisition

Sonar: SQQ-89(V) suite with SQS-53B/C LF active/passive bow mounted, SQR-19 TACTAS towed array

Fire Control: Mk91 NSSM guidance system with Mk95 radars
EW: SLQ-32(V)3 intercept/jammer (some ships: SLQ-32(V)2 intercept), Mk36 SRBOC decoy RL, SLQ-25A Nixie torpedo countermeasure, some ships: SSQ-108 Outboard ELINT sytem

Aviation: midships helicopter deck with RAST and 49-54 x 21-23.5 x 16+ foot/14.9-16.5 x 6.4-7.2 x 4.8+ meter hangar; 1 or 2 SH-60B

Armament: 1 61 cell Mk41 VLS (61 VLA & Tomahawk), 8 Harpoon SSM, 1 8-cell Mk29 NATO Sea Sparrow, 2 5"/54cal DP, 2 20mm Phalanx CIWS, 2 triple 12.75 inch torpedo tubes (Mk46 torpedoes), 4 12.7mm MG, 1 21-cell RAM launcher in some ships

http://www.modelwarships.com/reviews/ships/dd/dd-979/dd979-01.jpg

[ASIMOV]

Turkish Navy soon

2 Spruance class destroyers
8 Oliver Hazard Perry class frigates
6 Knox class frigates
4 MEKO 200TN class frigates
4 MEKO 200 class frigates
6 Aviso A-69 class light frigates

Turkish Navy 2010

2 Spruance class destroyers (probably more)
8 Oliver Hazard Perry class frigates
6 TF-2000 MEKO A-200 class AAW-C&C frigates
4 MEKO 200TN class frigates
4 MEKO 200 class frigates
12 Milgem MEKO A-100 class light frigates

(plus 19 submarines and 23 missile ships)

[willo]

Some basic mathematics

Spanish Navy

1 aircraft carrier
4 destroyers
15 frigates
8 submarines (without SSM capability)

Anti-ship missiles: 136 Harpoon SSM

TOTAL: 136 SSMs

Turkish Navy

28 frigates
19 submarines
23 missile ships

Anti-ship missiles: 336 Harpoon SSM, 16 Penguin SSM, 12 Exocet SSM

TOTAL: 364 SSMs


mathematics never works in a war. as some forumer said, our new frigates has a very advanced system and they could destroy easily your ships.

anyway a couple of years ago there was a great investment on spanish navy and there are several new types of ships under construction or in project.all those ships will have the latest systems

[ASIMOV]

Say hello to our new cruisers :wave:

http://www.modelwarships.com/reviews/ships/dd/dd-979/dd979-01.jpg

Ooops, I meant "172 m destroyers" :D

[ASIMOV]

Turkey also applied to purchase USS Ticonderoga class cruisers, might I add.

[ASIMOV]

8000 cc (sorry, I meant 80,000 shp)

http://www.chryslerworld.com/dodge_srt_brochure_images/2004_dodge_viper_srt10_v10_engine.jpg

http://www.madcc.kctcs.edu/html/pdouglas/2003_Dodge_Viper_RT10_Concept_left.jpg

[SHiRO]

Asimov...2

Yes, we are still playing...:D

(just to make sure you didn't forget 0 = two weeks brig)

[Tekir]

G Class (Oliver Hazard Perry) Frigates:

http://www.dzkk.tsk.mil.tr/images/Album/Gemiler/pic1024768/10.jpg

Salihreis and Barbaros (All Meko 200) Class Frigates:

http://www.dzkk.tsk.mil.tr/images/Album/Foteksler/pic1024768/87.jpg

Perries and Mekos:

http://www.dzkk.tsk.mil.tr/images/Album/Foteksler/pic1024768/28.jpg

[Prometheus]

this is very stupid notion, first off all Spruance are very old Destroyers, being replaced by Arleigh Burke Class, and US won't sell its Areleigh Burk's as they are to few of them, strange story to say the least.


http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=4666953&postcount=91

Flight I Arleigh Burke destroyers are already 2 decades old, so it's not out of the question.

The U.S operates 33 of them, with 19 ordered or under construction. This is not too few.

Though I can see the Ticonderoga class being an option as well. Greece is after the SM-2 missile, not neccasarily a set ship class.

[Tekir]

I think Greece plans to purchase Arleigh Burke' s to protect their trade fleet in Persian Gulf. Same thing is for Spruance' s of Turkey too in my opinion...

[george_ts]

ROUSSEN CLASS (62 METRE SUPER VITA) FAST ATTACK MISSILE CRAFT, GREECE

Elefsis Industrial Enterprises SA has been awarded the contract for the supply of three Super Vita 62m fast attack missile craft for the Hellenic Navy. The ships, called the "Roussen Class", are being constructed at the Elefsis yard near Athens. Vosper Thornycroft provides design, construction support, ship's equipment and logistic support services to Elefsis. The initial requirement is for three fast attack craft and part of the agreement includes provision of two ex-Royal Navy Hunt Class mine countermeasure vessels.

The fast attack craft has a displacement of 580t fully loaded. The first ship, HS Roussen (P67), was launched in November 2002, and is undergoing sea trials prior to delivery in 2005. The second, HS Daniolis (P68), was launched in July 2003 and will be delivered in 2005. The third, HS Kristallidis (P69), was launched in April 2004 and is due for delivery in November 2005.

In September 2003, a contract was awarded for a further two ships to be delivered in 2006 and 2007, to be built by Elefsis.

A newly covered construction facility in the Elefsis yard has been built for the construction of the three craft and for future projects.
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/hellenic/images/1_boat.jpg

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/hellenic/images/9_boat.jpg
The fast attack craft will be armed with Exocet surface-to-surface missiles, RAM air defence missiles and a 76mm main gun

ATTACK CRAFT DESIGN

The fast attack craft has a steel hull and aluminium superstructure. Vosper Thornycroft Controls is supplying the electrical power distribution system, the platform management system, electrical machinery and the mine counter-countermeasures system.

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/hellenic/images/4_boat.jpg Mirador electro-optical target tracker.

FAST ATTACK CRAFT WEAPONS

The ship is armed with the MBDA (formerly EADS Aerospatiale-Matra) Exocet ITL 70A MM40 Block II surface-to-surface missile. Exocet uses active radar homing and has a range of 70km. The two four-cylinder launchers are installed on the missile deck, set in a crossed configuration with one facing starboard and one facing port side.

The vessel’s air defence missile system is the RAM (Rolling Airframe Missile), to be supplied by RAMSYS, a consortium of MBDA (formerly EADS Daimler-Chrysler Aerospace), Diehl and BGT. The missile system’s GMWS Mk 31 21-cell launcher is installed on the stern deck. The RIM-116A Block I missile has a dual-mode radar/imaging infra-red seeker and a range of 10km.

The craft's main gun installed on the bow deck is the Oto Melara Super Rapid 76mm gun which is capable of firing 6kg shells at a rate of 100 rounds per minute to a range of 16km. Two Oto Melara 30mm guns are installed on either side of the upper deck to the stern of the main radar mast.

The ship is equipped with the Argo Systems AR900 electronic support measures system and the Sippican SRBOC decoy launcher.

VESSEL COMBAT MANAGEMENT
The vessel is fitted with the Tacticos combat management system supplied by Thales Nederland (formerly Signaal). Tacticos provides automatic threat evaluation, allocates sensors and assigns weapons for target engagement. The combat room accommodates the MOC Mark 3 consoles which include three vertical consoles and one conference console. The Tacticos system is integrated with the Exocet missiles, 76mm gun, 30mm guns, RAM system, DR 3000 electronic support measures and the chaff launcher.

The craft is equipped with the Thales Nederland Sting fire control system.

SENSORS

The vessel's sensor suite includes the Thales MW08 3D G-band surveillance radar, Thales Nederland Mirador electro-optical target tracker, an integrated Thales Nederland Scout Mark II low probability of intercept radar and Northrop Grumman (formerly Litton) Marine Bridgemaster-E navigation radar.

COMMUNICATIONS

Redifon is supplying the communications system. The Data Link 11, model MDM 2002 is supplied by Rockwell Collins. The radome of the satellite communications system is installed on the upper deck between the main radar tower and the 30mm guns. Intercom Systems A/S of Denmark will supply the ICS 2000 integrated communications system. The information friend or foe system is the Aeromaritime IFF Mk 12

PROPULSION

The main propulsion system is four MTU 16V595 TE90 engines with ZF type BW1556666 / 1557 S gear boxes and three 250kW generators driving four fixed pitch propellers. The fast combat craft achieves a speed of 35 knots. Vosper Thornycroft Marine Products is supplying the 900 Series steering system and the 300 Series stabiliser system.

[Prometheus]

I think Greece plans to purchase Arleigh Burke' s to protect their trade fleet in Persian Gulf. Same thing is for Spruance' s of Turkey too in my opinion...

Tekir, in all honestly the main op requirement for these types of vessels in Greece is to keep the air lanes between Kastelli Crete and Paphos Cyprus open in the event of you know what.

[Geroplatanos]

I am against the option of buying these huge second hand ships.
The american navy uses them in a totaly different way , in open ocean seas.
Even with all their good armament , the survivalability of these ships in closed waters like the Aegean sea with the many small islands is seriously in danger...
I agree with prometheus that the only reason that a navy would like to purchase such ships is the SM-2 missile capability , something which gives the advantage of larger area covered and protected against airforce attack.
Other disadvantages is the large crew , the "canivalization" process of the ships before they are given to TN or HN (so that means that they will have less capabilities as they had in US navy - i.e. without tomawhawk missiles )
and finally that there is no way that US navy sells/gives ships younger then 20 years old at least.
Also we should not forget the huge maintainance cost of these ships.
For navies who dont have "fantasies" of becoming small US navies , i dont see any reason of purchasing such vessels.

[Tekir]

I do not think so.

I do not think Arleigh BUrkes are purchased against a possible Turkish threat.

Well Spruances are not for Greece I know. One will be in Black Sea, the other one will be in Mediterranean.

We do not have trade ships so much like you. Greece should have not only two may be more of those. Persian Gulf is heating :D, American tankers (ups sorry Greek tankers) might be under danger. :D

Arleigh Burke is an expensive investment, too expensive to use against Turkey.

[Matthieu]

Navy to have one aircraft carrier

The Royal Navy will have just one aircraft carrier in service when HMS Invincible is de-commissioned six months early, the MoD has confirmed.
A ceremony is due to be held on 3 August to mark the end of the 22,000 tonne warship's 28-years of service.

Portsmouth South MP Mike Hancock claims the decision to axe Invincible has come because of the cost of the Iraq war.

HMS Ark Royal is due for a major refit. In the meantime HMS Illustrious is the only operational Navy carrier.

'Nonsense'

A spokesman for the Ministry of Defence said the early decommissioning ceremony was being held so the crew could mark the vessel's career while it was still "a live ship".

"There's no requirement to have Invincible running at full speed for the next six months," he said.


"It will be the last opportunity to fly a paying-off pennant because there'll be no crew on board when she's towed out of Portsmouth in four or five years' time."

Mr Hancock said: "I am appalled by this - I think it is complete and utter nonsense. This is all about the MoD finding funding to meet the costs of the war in Iraq."

The MoD said the Invincible would be gradually relieved of its crew and captain soon after the decommissioning ceremony.

Falklands

The crew will be given new postings and the vessel will be handed over to the MoD's Disposal and Reserve Ships Organisation where it will be mothballed until it is sold in 2010.

The carrier was launched by the Queen in 1977. The Duke of York was based on board as a Sea King helicopter pilot during the Falklands war.

The vessel had a £64m refit in 2001 and acted as the Royal Navy's flagship in last week's International Fleet Review.

Invincible is the sixth ship in the Royal Navy's history to bear the name.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4656873.stm

[mic of Orion]

I tried to be very polite to all ppl but any more of Turkish BS and ships I'll really explode. Takir and all Turks in this thread stop spamming this thread with Turkish Ships and BS, we are not impressed, we are not interested, we don't care. You only have made even most modest ppl in this forum looking on Turkey in bad manner, I was in Turkey on my holidays and Turkish ppl are friendly and nice, but you 2 guys try to prove everyone here to be exactly opposite. Plz stop it, or you going to get brigged if you persist, and this is not from my mouths, but straight from mods, so plz restrain you nationalism and BS... Thanx...

[ASIMOV]

The big difference between Greece and Turkey is that Greece sees Turkey as the biggest threat to its national security, while Turkey doesn't see Greece as a threat.

For Turkey, "possible threat" is Iran.

Russia used to be the biggest threat for our national security, but Turkey and Russia evolved into close trading partners with strong political ties.

(Istanbul and Moscow stock exchanges are directly linked to each other)

[Tekir]

The threats for Turkey today as considered by National Security Council.

1) Religious fanatism groving inside Turkey
2) Sepratist terror
3) Iran

There are no others, Greece is not even accepted as a threat.

[ASIMOV]

Tekir, in all honestly the main op requirement for these types of vessels in Greece is to keep the air lanes between Kastelli Crete and Paphos Cyprus open in the event of you know what.

Then I'm afraid it's a big waste of money :colgate:

:jk:

[Prometheus]

The big difference between Greece and Turkey is that Greece sees Turkey as the biggest threat to its national security, while Turkey doesn't see Greece as a threat.

Let's examine this closer and see if it holds water.

http://www.scramble.nl/tr.htm

Looking at the aligment of the THK, it's hard not to notice that they have the majority of their combat power looking towards the west, and not the east. Only the F-16 squdrons at Diyabakir are basically in any forward position towards Iran, Iraq and Syria. While Eskisehir, Bandirma and Balikeshir are quite obviously deploying F-16 and F-4 squadrons facing you know who.

So if they see Iran and Iraq as their biggest threats, them their operational posture seems somewhat twisted and wrong.

Then there is the fact that the Turkish Navy has the 2nd largest landing craft fleet in NATO deployed on their Aegean coast. For Iran? Or Syria?

And the aptly named 'Aegean Army' is not there to service the Turkish General Staff's possible apprehension of Iran or Iraq.

Take a close look too at Turkey's military purchases. I hope you seriously don't believe that the Harpy drones and the proliferation of SHORADS are aimed at the antiquated Iranian or non-existant Iraqi air forces.

Then there are the violations above the Aegean sea every day. It's been said that Turkish pilots must do a certain number of infringments of Hellenic air space to get their wings.

Turkish defence posture is very strange looking if indeed the General Staff are not classifying the west as a main threat.

[Tekir]

Prometheus,

Lets re analyse it again.

Now you may know Eskisehir and Malatya are F4 wings. Each has 1 F4 Terminator 2020, 1 F4-E and 1 RF-4E squadrons.

Now Turkey is upgrading most(40) of the remaining F-4E 's to Terminator level.

Now comes the drill. :D Turkey is also purchasing aditional Kurnasses . :D And these fighters will replace the recce planes of 173 Malatya.

After this issue, Malatya (3 F4 squadrons) would have more fighting power than Eskisehir (2 F4-E and 1 RF-4E).

BTW, the closeness of Balikesir and Bandirma does not mena they are put against Greece. And lets analyze the F16 bases.

Balikesir
Bandirma (Most are Block 50s., no EW)
Ankara
Amasya
Diyarbakir

2/5 are close to the western border.

2/5 are in Eastern Border.

And add the F4 domination which looks at Iran. :D

Analyze it again, please...

[ASIMOV]

If you ask the people on the streets of Istanbul "do you see Greece as a threat to Turkey", probably 90 % would say "NO" - including myself.

Greece is a civilized country and a neighbour that we like very much in many aspects - music, cuisine, history, culture, etc.

That's why our pubs and restaurants are loudly playing Greek music.

Try playing Turkish music in Greek night clubs and people will call you a traitor.

The only country we fear today is Iran. This country is a real pandora's box.

Russia, our biggest rival for centuries, has evolved into our second-biggest trade partner after Germany, and a close political ally.

Istanbul Stock Exchange = Moscow Stock Exchange ;)

[Tekir]

I would prefer enemity of Greece rather than friendship of mullahs of iran and arabs.

[Prometheus]

Guys I have to go I will respond when I return.

Asim, one quick thing I read a survey in Radikal some months ago which was actually almost the opposite of your first sentence.

[ASIMOV]

Balıkesir and Bandırma air bases are defending the Turkish Straits, Sea of Marmara and Istanbul.

They have nothing to do with Greece.

[Prometheus]

@Tekir
Now you may know Eskisehir and Malatya are F4 wings. Each has 1 F4 Terminator 2020, 1 F4-E and 1 RF-4E squadrons.

Eskesehir is quite clearly Aegean oriented. Their RF-4's have operated in the Aegean numerous times.

BTW, the closeness of Balikesir and Bandirma does not mena they are put against Greece. And lets analyze the F16 bases.

Well they clearly are not basing those Vipers there for Iran.

Balikersir and Bandirma have 4x F-16 squadrons between them. The only Viper units in the east of Turkey are at Diyabakir and there are 3.

Merzifon and Akinci have another 4 squadrons between them but each serve their purpose. The Merzifon Vipers are to protect Turkey's Black Sea coast in the north while the Akinci Vipers are to protect Ankara.

So we have on the 2 prospective 'fronts' 4x F-16 squadrons facing west, and 3x F-16 squadrons facing east. Then there are 3x F-4 squadrons facing east while 3x F-4's face west. If Turkey truly saw Iran as it's primary threat then there wouldn't be an almost 50/50 split between their combat deployments to the various fronts. Not to mention that in the west it is ONLY Greece, (unless they also consider Bulgaria a threat in the air). While in the east there is Iran, Iraq and Syria (not to mention Armenia).

It's quite clear looking at their deployments where they believe the main threat in the air comes from.

As I said above, some of Turkey purchases are an acknowledgement of where the main threat as they percieve is. Take into consideration the existance of the 'Aegean Army' and the landing craft force also. If we looked at Army deployment it would probably look similar.

[Prometheus]

Balıkesir and Bandırma air bases are defending the Turkish Straits, Sea of Marmara and Istanbul.

They have nothing to do with Greece.

That's not true as the Vipers which are always being chased out of the Aegean are from these two bases who between them have 4 Filo's.

[Tekir]

About Eskisehir:

YEs that is what I am talking about. For these years Eskisehir and Malatya were twin bases. Now they will not be. Malatya will have more fighters, one squadron more. Turkey is leaving 1-1 sharing. probably it will be 2(west) - 3(east).

[Tekir]

So today:

Central:
Ankara (3 Sq. F-16 C/D)

Western part:

Balikesir (2 Sq. F16 C/D)
Bandirma (2 Sq. F16 C/D)
Eskisehir (2 Sq. F4-E, 1 Sq RF-4E)

Eastern Part:

Merzifon (2 Sq. F16 C/D)
Diyarbakir (2 Sq. F16 C/D)
Malatya (2 Sq. F4-E, 1 Sq RF-4E)

In the future, Malatya will have all F4 Terminators and Kurnasses, which will finish the 1-1 distribution.

[Kommandant Mark]

@Tekir


Eskesehir is quite clearly Aegean oriented. Their RF-4's have operated in the Aegean numerous times.



Well they clearly are not basing those Vipers there for Iran.

Balikersir and Bandirma have 4x F-16 squadrons between them. The only Viper units in the east of Turkey are at Diyabakir and there are 3.

Merzifon and Akinci have another 4 squadrons between them but each serve their purpose. The Merzifon Vipers are to protect Turkey's Black Sea coast in the north while the Akinci Vipers are to protect Ankara.

So we have on the 2 prospective 'fronts' 4x F-16 squadrons facing west, and 3x F-16 squadrons facing east. Then there are 3x F-4 squadrons facing east while 3x F-4's face west. If Turkey truly saw Iran as it's primary threat then there wouldn't be an almost 50/50 split between their combat deployments to the various fronts. Not to mention that in the west it is ONLY Greece, (unless they also consider Bulgaria a threat in the air). While in the east there is Iran, Iraq and Syria (not to mention Armenia).

It's quite clear looking at their deployments where they believe the main threat in the air comes from.

As I said above, some of Turkey purchases are an acknowledgement of where the main threat as they percieve is. Take into consideration the existance of the 'Aegean Army' and the landing craft force also. If we looked at Army deployment it would probably look similar.


Sleep, Europe - Serbia is awake:yes:

[Kommandant Mark]

Anyways, I hope you guys are done with showing your useless little toys...time is now for the REAL stuff:yes:

Meet the Russian 3M-80 "Moskit" anti-shipping missile. Maximum speed up to Mach 3, with a range of 250km.

http://www.airserbia.com/magazin/filips/moskit/AS_moskit_naslov.jpg

Su-32 weaponry, includes the Moskit
http://www.airserbia.com/magazin/filips/moskit/AS_moskito_Su32.jpg

Moskit drawing
http://www.airserbia.com/magazin/filips/moskit/AS_moskit_skica.gif

Fired from "Sovremeny" class ship
http://www.airserbia.com/magazin/filips/moskit/AS_moskito_razaracklaseSovremeni.jpg

Moskit installed on the ekranoplane "Lun"
http://www.airserbia.com/magazin/filips/moskit/AS_moskit_Lun.jpg

"Udaloy" class armed with Moskit anti-shipping missiles
http://www.airserbia.com/magazin/filips/moskit/AS_moskitonaAdmiralChabanenko.jpg

[Prometheus]

Tekir, that split is still lopsided. For in the west there is only 1 real possible enemy which is faced with as much firepower as the whole of the east of Turkey is which has the Kurds, Iran, Iraq, Syria and Armenia.

Asim.....(NOTE THIS IS NOT A FLAME BUT JUST A DEBATE AND I POST THIS ONLY FOR WHAT ASIM WROTE EARLIER)

Turks see Greeks as their Number One enemy


Greece is Turkey's main enemy, according to a poll conducted in Turkey in February and March and which was published in yesterday's Radikal newspaper.

According to the study, 29 percent of respondents saw Greece as Turkey's enemy, followed by the United States (12 percent), France (11 percent), Iran and Russia (4 percent each) and Syria (4 percent).

-Forty-eight percent said that Turkey should follow a policy of no compromise with Greece while 51 percent is in favor of mutual compromise;

-64 percent approve of its government's policy on Greek-Turkish relations while 35 percent are opposed;

-69 percent approve of Turkey's Cyprus policy while 29 percent are opposed to it;

-36 percent say that Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots cannot live together ;

-32 percent favor a partial cohabitation ;

-31 percent are for full integration;

-69 percent oppose a Turkish troop withdrawal from Cyprus ;

Although 54 percent do not believe that Turkey is in danger of foreign invasion, among the 46 percent who fear this, most (37 percent) suspect Greece of attacking, followed by Iraq (10 percent), and Russia and the United States (7 percent each).

Greeks were also judged to be the most aggressive, untrustworthy and immoral.

[Prometheus]

Kommandant, do you know what an Exocet is? :)

[Kommandant Mark]

French anti-ship missile, developed in early 1970's?
Old stuff...Russians keep similar things in their museums.

[Prometheus]

Now now my Serbian friend. The Exocet has many modern derivatives. The prescence of Exocet missiles in the Falklands steered British policy for the entire war almost.

You'll excuse me, but I personally don't hold most Russian equipment in high regard. Too many times have they proven inferior to their western equivalents. I digress though that their SAM's are top class.

[Kommandant Mark]

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20050706/40856965.html

ANAPA, July 6 (RIA Novosti) - The Russian Armed Forces will adopt new BAL coastal defense missile systems in 2006, Russian Defense Minister Sergei Ivanov said Wednesday.

He said the Rubezh missile systems would be replaced with the BAL systems. Ivanov added that the first batch of the new systems would be delivered in 2006 to Kamchatka - a peninsula in the Russian Far East washed by the Okhotsk and Bering seas.

According to available information, the BAL mobile coastal system is designed to defend coastal facilities and make their combat capabilities more stable. It detects and tracks surface targets, and then destroys them with X-35 anti-ship cruise missiles.

The system can both fire single shots and salvos. A simultaneous launch of 32 X-35E missiles, which have a range of up to 110 kilometers, is capable of disrupting a large-scale landing operation or destroying a ship attack group.

After reloading, the BAL launch installations will be able to fire another 32 missiles at ships or new targets.

BAL systems will be modernized in the future. They will have unmanned aerial vehicles attached to missiles to detect the enemy and false target-installing means to protect them from enemy strikes.

[Tekir]

44% voted for AKP which was pro-Annan plan.

Our eastern enemies. :D

Kurds: to counter kurdish birds, F16 is a perfect tool. :D
Iraq: Iraq? There is no Iraq, it is USA now. :D
Syria: Soon will be USA too. :D
Armenia: Hahahahahahah

Prometheus, exclude USA and Russia only standing force on our east is Iran.

[Prometheus]

Tekir, they're all part of the Republic of Fenerbahce aren't they?

http://www.eurofeb.de/forum/files/banner_205.jpg

[ASIMOV]

It's quite normal that Turkey is maintaining large forces at the west side of the country, because (realistically speaking) western Turkey is a lot more valuable than eastern Turkey.

Turkey can afford to lose Hakkari, but not Istanbul.

The overwhelming majority of the country's industry, finance, trade and population is located at the western part.

Turkish Straits and the Sea of Marmara are of enormous value. Russia is a close friend today, but maybe they'll be enemies tomorrow.

Balikesir and Bandirma's primary mission is to protect the Turkish Straits, the Sea of Marmara, and Istanbul (the engine of Turkey) as well as other major industrial cities in the area such as Bursa (Turkey's Detroit) and Kocaeli.

I'm sure ( for the sake of :bleh: ) these guys sometimes fly to the Aegean, but Aegean is not their primary responsibility.

Turkey is an extremely valuable geostrategic real estate, and all parts of it should be protected and "ever-ready" for all types of attacks from any country.

But logically speaking, the only country which may pose a threat to Turkey at the moment is Iran.

We trust Greece but we don't trust Iran.

Greece is a true democracy run by elected politicians who are responsible to their people. A rich and happy country which has plenty to lose.

Iran on the other hand is a theocratic regime where the mullahs are the law itself. They can do anything, at any time. Totally unpredictable.

[ASIMOV]

U.S. Congress approved the sale of Spruance class destroyers to Turkey (Friday, 1 July 2005)

http://www.ntvmsnbc.com/news/331234.asp

Delivery in 2006 and 2007

[ASIMOV]

Spruance class ships are the largest ever destroyers of the U.S. Navy

They can easily be classified as cruisers

http://navysite.de/dd/Image1055.gif

Builders: Ingalls Shipbuilding, West Bank, Pascagoula, Miss.

Power Plant:
4 General Electric LM-2500 Gas Turbine Engines (80,000 Shaft Horsepower)
3 Allison 501-K17 2000 kilowatt Gas Turbine Generators
2 Controllable-Reversible Pitch Propellers
2 Rudders

Length: 172 meters
Beam: 16.8 meters
Draft: 8.8 meters
Displacement: 9,200 tons full load
Speed: 30+ knots
Range: 6,000 nautical miles @ 20 knots
Crew: 30 officers, 352 enlisted

Sensors:
1 AN/SQR-l9 (V) 3 Tactical Towed Array Sonar
1 AN/SPS40E Air Search Radar
1 AN/SPS-55 Surface Search Radar
1 AN/SPQ-9A Surface Surveillance and Tracking Radar
1 AN/SPG-60 Air Surveillance and Tracking Radar
1 AN/SQS-53B Hull Mounted Sonar 1 AN/SLQ-32 (V) 2 Electronic Warfare Suite
1 SLQ-25 Nixie Torpedo Deception Device
1 WRN-6A Global Positioning System
1 MK 23 Target Acquisition System
1 AN/SLQ-49 Inflatable Radar Decoy System

Weapons Systems:
2 Mk-143 armored box launchers for Tomahawk
2 Mk-141 quad launchers for Harpoon missiles
1 Mk-29 NATO Sea Sparrow missile launcher
1 Mk-41 VLS launcher for ASROC
2 Mk-15 20mm Phalanx CIWS
2 Mk-45 Leightweight Gun Mounts
2 Mk-32 triple tube mounts for Mk-46 torpedoes
4 .5 Caliber Machine Guns
2 Mk-38 Machine Guns
1 MK 36 Super Rapid-Blooming Off Board Chaff System

Command and Control:
JOTS, Link 11, HF Radios, UHF Radios, VHF Radios

Aircraft: 2 Sea Hawk helicopters

Annual Average Unit Operating Cost: $35,000,000

http://navysite.de/dd/dd963_6.jpg

http://navysite.de/dd/Image425.jpg

[Falcon83]

^ it's old stuff.

[Kuvvaci]

^^how about this one?


http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Media/StarDestroyer-Net2.jpg

[ASIMOV]

I don't see a European destroyer which can stand against it. ;)

The U.S. intended to use the Spruance class until 2014, but recent plans by the Bush administration to build a totally new class of destroyers (in order to please the arms industry) brought the decision to decommission these beautiful ships.

[ASIMOV]

Turkey is currently negotiating for a USS San Antonio class LPD and three USS Ticonderoga class cruisers

USS San Antonio

http://www.usssanantonio.org/17-050429-Underway%209.jpg

USS Ticonderoga

http://www.ussticonderoga.com/pics.spf/pics009.jpg

In 2007:

2 Spruance class destroyers
8 Oliver Hazard Perry class frigates
6 Knox class frigates
4 MEKO 200TN frigates
4 MEKO 200 frigates
6 Aviso A-69 class light friagtes

In 2010-2012:

1 San Antonio class LPD
3 Ticonderoga class cruisers
4 Spruance class destroyers
8 Oliver Hazard Perry class frigates
6 TF-2000 MEKO A-200 class AAW-C&C frigates
4 MEKO 200TN frigates
4 MEKO 200 frigates
12 Milgem MEKO A-100 light frigates

[ASIMOV]

In 2014:

1 light VSTOL aircraft carrier (15 JSFs and several helicopters)
1 San Antonio class LPD (several helicopters)
3 Ticonderoga class cruisers (2 Sea Hawk helis each)
4 Spruance class destroyers (2 Sea Hawk helis each)
8 Oliver Hazard Perry class frigates (1 Sea Hawk heli each)
6 TF-2000 MEKO A-200 AAW-C&C frigates (1 Sea Hawk heli each)
4 MEKO 200TN frigates (1 Sea Hawk heli each)
4 MEKO 200 frigates (1 Sea Hawk heli each)
12 Milgem MEKO A-100 light frigates (1 Sea Hawk heli each)

[Deadeye]

Very good news for the Greek Navy! ;)
Spruance-class destroyers are well known as targets on multi-national SINKEXs (Ship Sinking Exercises).
So during maneuvers in the future the Turkish destroyers should take care not to be mistaken as decommissioned wrecks and sunk by their NATO allies. :hilarious



USS CARON was last homeported in Norfolk, Va. On December 4, 2002, she was "accidentally" sunk as a target during explosive tests off Puerto Rico as CARON was believed to survice the tests and scheduled to be sunk as a target in 2003. Secondary explosions during the test finally caused her to sink. USS CARON was the first VLS-equipped ship ever used as target during a SINKEX.

USS Caron (DD 970)
http://www.navysite.de/dd/dd970_4.jpg

http://www.navysite.de/dd/dd970_5.jpg

http://www.navysite.de/dd/dd970_6.jpg

http://www.navysite.de/dd/dd970_7.jpg



On April 11, 2004, USS JOHN YOUNG was towed from the Naval Inactive Ships Maintenance Facility at Pearl Harbor, Hi., to a location north off Kauaii. On April 13, 2004, the JOHN YOUNG was sent to the bottom of the sea by a Mk-48 ADCAP torpedo fired by the USS PASADENA (SSN 752).

USS John Young (DD 973)
http://www.navysite.de/dd/dd-images/dd973sink1.jpg

http://www.navysite.de/dd/dd-images/dd973sink2.jpg

http://www.navysite.de/dd/dd-images/dd973sink3.jpg

http://www.navysite.de/dd/dd-images/dd973sink4.jpg

http://www.navysite.de/dd/dd-images/dd973sink5.jpg

http://www.navysite.de/dd/dd-images/dd973sink6.jpg

http://www.navysite.de/dd/dd-images/dd973sink7.jpg



USS HAYLER was the final ship in the SPRUANCE - class of destroyers. The ship was last homeported in Norfolk, Va. Decommissioned on August 25, 2003, the HAYLER was sunk as a target on November 13, 2004, during a multi-national SINKEX 300 miles off the US east coast. Participating in the exercise were the USS SAIPAN (LHA 2) Expeditionary Strike Group (ESG) and several units of NATO's Standing Naval Force Atlantic (STANAVFORLANT).

USS Hayler (DD 997)
http://www.navysite.de/dd/dd997_2.jpg

http://www.navysite.de/dd/dd-images/dd997sink1.jpg

[ASIMOV]

Very good news for the Greek Navy! ;)

I don't think so.

These ships can effortlessly sink any vessel of the German Navy.

U.S. Navy planned to use them until 2014, but the arms industry (which traditionally backs the Republicans) forced the Bush administration to build an entirely new class of destroyers.

Therefore, it was necessary to destroy the Spruance class. ;)

Good news for Turkey and other bargain hunters! :D

[ASIMOV]

In 2007:

2 Spruance class destroyers
8 Oliver Hazard Perry class frigates
6 Knox class frigates
4 MEKO 200TN frigates
4 MEKO 200 frigates
6 Aviso A-69 class light friagtes

In 2010-2012:

1 San Antonio class LPD
3 Ticonderoga class cruisers
4 Spruance class destroyers
8 Oliver Hazard Perry class frigates
6 TF-2000 MEKO A-200 class AAW-C&C frigates
4 MEKO 200TN frigates
4 MEKO 200 frigates
12 Milgem MEKO A-100 light frigates

In 2014:

1 light VSTOL aircraft carrier (15 JSFs and several helicopters)
1 San Antonio class LPD (several helicopters)
3 Ticonderoga class cruisers (2 Sea Hawk helis each)
4 Spruance class destroyers (2 Sea Hawk helis each)
8 Oliver Hazard Perry class frigates (1 Sea Hawk heli each)
6 TF-2000 MEKO A-200 AAW-C&C frigates (1 Sea Hawk heli each)
4 MEKO 200TN frigates (1 Sea Hawk heli each)
4 MEKO 200 frigates (1 Sea Hawk heli each)
12 Milgem MEKO A-100 light frigates (1 Sea Hawk heli each)

- Now beat that, varmint!
http://www.tourneytools.com/yosemite%20sam/y7.jpg

[ASIMOV]

Spruance class ships are the largest ever destroyers of the U.S. Navy

They can easily be classified as cruisers

http://navysite.de/dd/Image1055.gif

Builders: Ingalls Shipbuilding, West Bank, Pascagoula, Miss.

Power Plant:
4 General Electric LM-2500 Gas Turbine Engines (80,000 Shaft Horsepower)
3 Allison 501-K17 2000 kilowatt Gas Turbine Generators
2 Controllable-Reversible Pitch Propellers
2 Rudders

Length: 172 meters
Beam: 16.8 meters
Draft: 8.8 meters
Displacement: 9,200 tons full load
Speed: 30+ knots
Range: 6,000 nautical miles @ 20 knots
Crew: 30 officers, 352 enlisted

Sensors:
1 AN/SQR-l9 (V) 3 Tactical Towed Array Sonar
1 AN/SPS40E Air Search Radar
1 AN/SPS-55 Surface Search Radar
1 AN/SPQ-9A Surface Surveillance and Tracking Radar
1 AN/SPG-60 Air Surveillance and Tracking Radar
1 AN/SQS-53B Hull Mounted Sonar 1 AN/SLQ-32 (V) 2 Electronic Warfare Suite
1 SLQ-25 Nixie Torpedo Deception Device
1 WRN-6A Global Positioning System
1 MK 23 Target Acquisition System
1 AN/SLQ-49 Inflatable Radar Decoy System

Weapons Systems:
2 Mk-143 armored box launchers for Tomahawk
2 Mk-141 quad launchers for Harpoon missiles
1 Mk-29 NATO Sea Sparrow missile launcher
1 Mk-41 VLS launcher for ASROC
2 Mk-15 20mm Phalanx CIWS
2 Mk-45 Leightweight Gun Mounts
2 Mk-32 triple tube mounts for Mk-46 torpedoes
4 .5 Caliber Machine Guns
2 Mk-38 Machine Guns
1 MK 36 Super Rapid-Blooming Off Board Chaff System

Command and Control:
JOTS, Link 11, HF Radios, UHF Radios, VHF Radios

Aircraft: 2 Sea Hawk helicopters

Annual Average Unit Operating Cost: $35,000,000

http://navysite.de/dd/dd963_6.jpg

I'm sure German Navy has more powerful vessels :yes:

[ASIMOV]

http://www.hazegray.org/worldnav/usa/surface.htm

Armament: 1 61 cell Mk41 VLS (61 VLA & Tomahawk), 8 Harpoon SSM, 1 8-cell Mk29 NATO Sea Sparrow, 2 5"/54cal DP, 2 20mm Phalanx CIWS, 2 triple 12.75 inch torpedo tubes (Mk46 torpedoes), 4 12.7mm MG, 1 21-cell RAM launcher

Very good news for the Greek Navy :happy:

Not a match for Germany's Lutjens (C.F. Adams) class destroyers :no:

[ASIMOV]

Sorry, I meant C.F. Adams "air defense destroyers"

(was very successful against Mitsubishi and Messerschmitt planes)

[ASIMOV]

USS Ticonderoga cruisers and USS Spruance destroyers have the same dimensions, because they share the same hull.

(They are both 172m x 16.7m)

The cost of maintaining these two types together will be reasonable, since they share so many characteristics.

[ASIMOV]

USS Ticonderoga cruiser (172m x 16.7m)

http://www.ussticonderoga.com/pics.spf/pics009.jpg

USS Spruance destroyer (172m x 16.7m)

http://navysite.de/dd/dd963_6.jpg

They are practically the same ship, built by the same company

[ASIMOV]

Corvette (5700cc) and Camaro Z28 (5700cc) :D

[Deadeye]

The last Charles F. Adams-Class destroyer of the Bundesmarine (Lütjens) was decommissioned in Wilhelmshaven on the 18th of December 2003! :wave:

They were replaced by the Sachsen aka Azzkicker-Class frigates. :guns1:
http://www.schnellboot.net/div/hamburg/marine/fregatten/deutsche-marine/f219-sachsen/014.jpg

http://www.schnellboot.net/div/hamburg/marine/fregatten/deutsche-marine/f219-sachsen/016.jpg

http://www.schnellboot.net/div/hamburg/marine/fregatten/deutsche-marine/f219-sachsen/018.jpg

http://www.schnellboot.net/div/hamburg/marine/fregatten/deutsche-marine/f219-sachsen/020.jpg

http://www.schnellboot.net/div/hamburg/marine/fregatten/deutsche-marine/f219-sachsen/026.jpg

http://www.schnellboot.net/div/hamburg/marine/fregatten/deutsche-marine/f219-sachsen/027.jpg

[ASIMOV]

You mean Sachsen aka Asskisser-Class frigates? :D

http://navysite.de/dd/dd963_6.jpg

Dimensions: 172m x 16.7m (aka Ticonderoga class butt-grabbing cruiser)
Power: 80,000 shp
Speed: 30+ knots
Armament: 1 61 cell Mk41 VLS (61 VLA & Tomahawk), 8 Harpoon SSM, 1 8-cell Mk29 NATO Sea Sparrow, 1 21-cell RAM launcher, ASROC, 2 5"/54cal DP, 2 20mm Phalanx CIWS, 2 triple 12.75 inch torpedo tubes (Mk46 torpedoes), 4 12.7mm MG
Aviation: 2 Sea Hawk helicopters (Hellfire II missiles, Mk.46 torpedoes)

:bleh:

[ASIMOV]

Lincoln Town Car limousine -VS- Volkswagen Passat sedan

[Deadeye]

Sachsen-Class = Mercedes-Benz S-Class :bow:

[ASIMOV]

Spruance-Class = Mercedes can kiss my ass Superstretch-Class

http://www.aroyaltlimo.com/images/ultra1.jpg

http://www.aroyaltlimo.com/images/ultra1_3.jpg

http://www.aroyaltlimo.com/images/ultra1_1.jpg

[ASIMOV]

Size matters :D

[Deadeye]

Yeah, my speech.
S-Class battleship visits Sydney Harbour. :nocrook:

http://www.hfweddingcars.com/images/large_0562.JPG

[ASIMOV]

So ugly - lacks Lincoln's charm

[ASIMOV]

Lincoln Town Car limousine

http://navysite.de/dd/dd963_6.jpg

Volkswagen Passat sedan

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/f124/images/Sachsen_13.jpg

Miserable

[ASIMOV]

Look at their helicopter landing platforms and understand the size difference ;)

[ASIMOV]

One of them is practically a cruiser while the other is a frigate

USS Ticonderoga cruiser (172m x 17m)

http://www.ussticonderoga.com/pics.spf/pics009.jpg

USS Spruance destroyer (172m x 17m)

http://navysite.de/dd/dd963_6.jpg

They are practically the same ship, built by the same company

[mic of Orion]

Look at their helicopter landing platforms and understand the size difference ;)

OK Asimov, the difference between 2 ships are many...

1. One is smaller but also is semi-stealth, has cross section of only 50m across, the other is large and has full cross section, bigger and easier target to ce and destroy...

2. Spruance are old class of destroyers and most of the sensors, fire-control and navigational aides are antiquated in comparison to today's standards. Would not last long in a fight, despite being American or large...

3. De Zeven Provincien class uses latest weapon aides, sensor and jammers, Sprunace lacks those, although Srpruance in theory has more firepower due to higher load of missiles, but I would discount most of these as they are not relevant in tactical warfare; Most a SAM's and are only good against aircrafts.. Tomahawks are not relevant to naval warfare at sea and load of Harpoon is the same so tacitly ship re equally armed, where's the difference is in the roles and sensors.

Spruance are armed to be AA destroyers to escort large carriers thus large number of missiles. for this role they are well suited, for offensive warfare Sprucance where armed with Tomahawks (only some) but in reality this where used for long range shore targets rather than ship to ship engagements (Turkey will never receive Tomahawks).

Dew Zeven is better ships cose of sensor and capabilities, weapons it carries are batter to and would probably be more effective against the potential air and sea threats, (Dutch ship uses weapons which are one generation better than on Spurance)...

De Zeven is armed with Phased Array radars, Spruance is not, and Turkey is unlikely to receive this radars as they are considered relatively offensive weapons, to keep with OESC treaties Turkey will not receive such technology for a while and I am sure Turkey would be required to retire quite a few ships to comply with OESC treaty otherwise sanctions might follow...

I can probably guess Turkey could have a fleet of 8 Meko Frigates, 8 Perry Frigates, 4 New AA Frigates (probably Meko's AA frigates) and 2 Spruance Destroyers say in 2008/9.

Perry are obsolete frigates, they do require replacement to... I am positive Knox Class will ce retirements as well as French small escort frigates ,this are far to obsolete to be of any use... :)
:cheers:

[Petronius]

the might of POrtugal cannot be described in such a thread.

[willo]

asimov try to convince us how goog is turkish navy while they are buying old shitty stuff to the USA

[Geroplatanos]

I can probably guess Turkey could have a fleet of 8 Meko Frigates, 8 Perry Frigates, 4 New AA Frigates (probably Meko's AA frigates) and 2 Spruance Destroyers say in 2008/9.


Some comments on this:
Its allready 2005 and the TF2000 program is still in paper , so probably everything else stands except the 4 new AA frigates , for the year 2008/9.
I can also guess that there will be an upgrade program (at least electronics) of the 8 O.H.Perry frigates.
Probably if the program goes as predicted , the new TF2000 first frigate will be delivered after 2010.
But allready the thread is biased with all these massive posts , please guys i said again try to write the news of your country's navy but avoid to spam the thread with tens of posts of the style mercedes vs citroen or what ever.
As about the huge american destroyers , as i said again , they are not needed for any of the two countries (greece,turkey) .
The only advantage they have is their "larger area AA coverage" with their SM-2 missiles.
They need huge numbers of personnel , huge maintanance cost , and they are not at all new.
But anyway its in the Navy's specialists personnel to decide if it is worth such
a purchage.

[ASIMOV]

Turkey intends to upgrade the Spruance though.

Bringing them to Kidd/Ticonderoga level :D

Spruance already has 61-cell (!) VLS for SM-2, and Sea Sparrow will be upgraded to ESSM. The radar systems will also be upgraded to improve AAW capabilities. Let me remind you that the "launchers" for Tomahawk will also stay, which means that our buddy Israel will either provide originals or "Made in Israel & Turkey" alternatives for us.

Anyway, the Passat looks nice but I'll still take the Lincoln Town Car limousine, thank you very much. :cool:

[Falcon83]

Does Turkey have ballistic missles?

[ASIMOV]

Chauffeur: - How are you today, Mr. Asimov?

Asimov: - Couldn't be better.

Chauffeur: - And our destination, sir?

Asimov: - Sunset Boulevard, as usual.

http://www.aroyaltlimo.com/images/ultra1.jpg

Asimov: - Oh, and Thomas!

Chauffeur: - Yes, sir.

Asimov: - Please tell the owner of that Passat not to park on our doorway again. So disrespectful and annoying.

Chauffeur: - As you wish, sir.

[ASIMOV]

:D Sachsen can only be a hood ornament for Spruance :D

A: - Did you say 61-cell VLS for SM-2?

B: - Yes, I said 61-cell VLS for SM-2.

[ASIMOV]

A: - Did you say two quadruple launchers for Harpoon?

B: - Yes, I said two quadruple launchers for Harpoon.

A: - Did you say ESSM in place of Sea Sparrow?

B: - Yes, I said ESSM in place of Sea Sparrow.

A: - Did you say two Tomahawk launchers will stay?

B: - Yes, I said two Tomahawk launchers will stay.

A: - Did you say Israel will knock the door?

B: - Yes, I said Israel will knock the door.

*KNOCK! KNOCK! KNOCK!*

[ASIMOV]

I am sure Turkey would be required to retire quite a few ships to comply with OESC treaty otherwise sanctions might follow...

Let's get out of Cyprus otherwise sanctions might follow :runaway:

Sanctions usually don't work with Turkey ;)

In a time when Turkey's population will reach 100 million and Greece's population will drop below 10 million, Turkey can't be expected to adjust its military power according to the fears of Greece.

Especially when having neighbours like Russia and Iran.

Turkey will eventually become a major power. The same is valid for Iran if they can get rid of the mullahs.

[ASIMOV]

Perry are obsolete frigates, they do require replacement too

I absolutely disagree.

Australian Navy is currently fitting them with SM-2 and ESSM, and intends to use these 1980s U.S. Navy frigates for a long time.

Turkey will do the same.

[mic of Orion]

Let's get out of Cyprus otherwise sanctions might follow :runaway:

Sanctions usually don't work with Turkey ;)

In a time when Turkey's population will reach 100 million and Greece's population will drop below 10 million, Turkey can't be expected to adjust its military power according to the fears of Greece.

Especially when having neighbours like Russia and Iran.

Turkey will eventually become a major power. The same is valid for Iran if they can get rid of the mullahs.

I am not saying economic but political, and they work well, especially if it comes to military and political matter, example we could ban any sale of military equipment and all countries signatories to OESC treaty would have to oblige with this ruling, naturally it would mean no new ships, new weapons, no new airplanes no new technologies, EU talks suspension and possible suspension of membership for Turkey in all European Associations...

Now this is the sanction I am talking, not to mention trade agreements you had with EU would be in dead water, stringent visa regime for all Turkish nationals and so on....

What would this mean for Turkey, other than collapse of Turkish Lira, economic crisis and political fall out it would also end with probable collapse of Turkish Government in office and possible military dictatorship...

[ASIMOV]

Istanbul 2014 :D

http://navysite.de/cvn/Image273.jpg

TCG Barbaros Hayreddin Paşa passing under the Third Bosphorus Bridge

http://navysite.de/cvn/cv67_16.jpg

http://navysite.de/cvn/cv67_18.jpg

TCG Barbaros Hayreddin Paşa sailing towards the Black Sea

http://navysite.de/cvn/cv67_17.jpg

[Tekir]

Asimov, Perries have a very strong hull, I agree with you. If we had managed to upgrade them like Australia, they would be wonderful.

However, even with this configuration, they are allright. ;)

Anyone who wants to question Perrries should take a look at USS Stark event...

[Jai-C]

Size matters :D
Wrong! In modern warefare there are only two things that matter:
1. Speed and agility
2. Detecting and hitting the enemy before he can detect you.

This is the reason why battleships vanished from the seas.

[Mr. T]

Why the hell would Turkey need an aircraft carrier. What use would it do? Any country that Turkey could potentialy go to war with by sea(Greece, Bulgaria) are bith reachable by ground based aircraft. I doubt Turkey would buy such a waste of money.

[ASIMOV]

Well, it's part of Turkish Navy's master plan to build a light VSTOL aircraft carrier with 15 JSFs and several helicopters by 2014.

Turkey also applied for a San Antonio class LPD, which will accompany the light VSTOL carrier. The San Antonio class LPD will serve as a helicopter carrier.

These ships will be extremely well protected with Ticonderoga class cruisers and Spruance class destroyers, accompanied by Perry class frigates.

Turkey can utilize these ships for missions that are beyond the reach of the country's defense forces; such as an air attack against the Bekaa Valley in Lebanon (where PKK terrorists are being trained)

[ASIMOV]

We'll smoke them out :D

[ASIMOV]

Does Turkey have ballistic missiles?
Chronicle of Turkey's ballistic missile project

1972: foundation of TUBITAK-SAGE

1988: ROKETSAN is founded

1988: Turkish cooperation with Pakistan. ASR-227, a top-secret
ballistic missile development project, gets underway

1989: acquisition of specialized test equipment and telemetry
devices from France

04/1990: first test launch of the ASR-227 ballistic missile

1991: recruitment of 200 Turkic-origin scientists from the
former Soviet Union. The scientists were specialized in missile
technology and weapons of mass destruction

1992-1994: beginning of new research at TUBITAK-SAGE and
a shift toward Soviet technology

1995: cooperation starts with China and Israel

1/12/1995: application submitted to the United States for the
purchase of ATACMs

10/1996: revealed: a secret agreement with China on the
purchase of a small number of WS-1 launchers and the transfer
of technical know-how for the construction of ballistic missiles

11/1996: signing of an agreement for the purchase of ATACMs from the United States

13/10/1997: agreement with Israel on joint production of
the Delilah air-launched cruise missile

28/09/1999: first test launch of a missile produced entirely
in Turkey

11/02/2000: first successful test of Turkish-made Toros 230-A and
Toros 260-A long-range rockets

6/12/2001: first test launch of an entirely Turkish-made ballistic
missile (J-missile)

[ASIMOV]

French Secret Service report: Turkey will join the "nuclear club" by testing a long range ballistic missile in 2006.

I wonder where inspecteur Clouseau got that information from.

[mic of Orion]

Asimov you don't know what you on about, you clearly confused geography and countries in you recent posts, you are troll, and you'll get briged if you persist, this is a warning you should take seriously as you are spamming this thread way to much, despite being warned to stop with spamming and trolling you persist and BS and Lies you spew only makes you look s***d...

You fully well know you are talking to ppl (in this forum) who can check everything you say, every word, and if they are prepared to argue with you (most don't care to as they ce BS from far a filed) they can prove you wrong on every fact U used here...

Every fact is checkable with Internet and research, so stop spamming this thread, I think you should be getting your final warning now cose it is to much of your BS...

For future reference use only facts and data you can prove, but as we have to much of Turkish Navy in this threads to last us next 20 years change subject to some other naval doctrine (other navies) or get of this thread as you going to get briged and it would be your own fault....

You where warned already 2 times on this thread, don't make it third time!!

[Kommandant Mark]

^
Just Asimov being Asimov.
He posted here long before you, and he'll probably post here long after you:yes:

(its not people like Asimov that piss me off, its people that take things a little too seriously)

[Tekir]

Agree with you Kommandant. If there are no insults, we should try to have fun. Off course there is no place for insults here. But life is short, lets try to enjoy it guys. ;)

[ASIMOV]

Tekir, any news about TCVL? :D

[Prometheus]

Why the hell would Turkey need an aircraft carrier. What use would it do? Any country that Turkey could potentialy go to war with by sea(Greece, Bulgaria) are bith reachable by ground based aircraft. I doubt Turkey would buy such a waste of money.

Especially in the shallow and crowded Aegean.

[Prometheus]

Let's get out of Cyprus otherwise sanctions might follow :runaway:

Sanctions usually don't work with Turkey ;)

In a time when Turkey's population will reach 100 million and Greece's population will drop below 10 million, Turkey can't be expected to adjust its military power according to the fears of Greece.

Especially when having neighbours like Russia and Iran.


Asim, we've been over this.

Why then is there a dissproportionate deployment of forces from the Turkish military? Because of Russia and Iran?

Why the "Aegean Army", or the 30,000 troops on Cyprus? Are you in Cyprus to steal Russian oil money? :lol:

[Prometheus]

French Secret Service report: Turkey will join the "nuclear club" by testing a long range ballistic missile in 2006.


Asim, Ballistic missles do not mean nuclear, unless you tip them with nuclear warheads.

Now as an aside, I have read in several Greek magazines of Turkey 'toying' with the idea of nuclear weapons, but Turkey is not a nation that has them or could in the near future. Unless you obtain them from a 3rd country, which would never be allowed by the U.S/EU.

Not to mention what a blatantly stupid move this would be. Of course your western neighbour would not stand idle, not matter how many times our polticians dance rebetiko with each other.

[Kommandant Mark]

Eh...did you know that Yugoslavia/Serbia could have been the fifth country to develop nuclear weapons? After USA, Soviets, Brits and French? But the US bought us out, basically gave us billions to stop further research & development.

We still have the knowledge though, and will gladly share it with Greece:)

[Tekir]

Especially in the shallow and crowded Aegean.

Because we will not use it in Aegean Sea. It will patrol north Africa coasts especially Suezz Channel and ee will send it to Persian Gulf if needed. :)

[Tekir]

Tekir, any news about TCVL? :D

No news, lets first finish the LPD and air defence destroyer production.

In 20 years, if our economy will not crash (:D) we might have two task forces (one Amphibious and one Carrier)...

[ASIMOV]

About Turkey's aircraft carrier in 2014

http://www.geocities.com/turkishdefensenews/jtdnm/jtdnm_Feb00.htm

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3738/is_199907/ai_n8869765

http://www.amiinter.com/vessel_type.html#aircraft_carrier

http://www.milliyet.com.tr/1998/04/13/haber/hab00.html

[Prometheus]

Because we will not use it in Aegean Sea. It will patrol north Africa coasts especially Suezz Channel and ee will send it to Persian Gulf if needed. :)

Ah Tekir. The U.S, Britain, France and Russia all have interets like these. Egypt can protect the Suez canal herself. Your only off-shore possible conflict zone in 90km from your coast.

Have you ever seen a white elephant? :)

[Tekir]

Prometheus, if you have balls and equipment, you will patrol there too. And how did you come up with the idea that we will only protect our interests?

American, Turkish and Israel interests do not intersect in eastern Med. And like Asimov said, Carrier will be a nice showdown for our interests in Bekaa Valley and Persian Gulf.

[Prometheus]

http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/rids/20050703/i/r3638716372.jpg?
-"Say there Recep. Will you please spend hundreds of millions if not billions on a light carrier?
-Sure thing Kostas".

Excellent.....

[Tekir]

Prometheus, I hope you are not taking me seriously. I would want (like our Army) a carrier too but with this economical conditions, it is just impossible.

[ASIMOV]

TCVL

Displacement: 15,000 tons
Aviation: 15 Joint Strike Fighter, 6 CH-60S helicopters, UAV/UCAV aircraft
Planned service date: 2014

http://www.geocities.com/turkishdefensenews/jtdnm/jtdnm_Feb00.htm

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3738/is_199907/ai_n8869765

http://www.amiinter.com/vessel_type.html#aircraft_carrier

http://www.milliyet.com.tr/1998/04/13/haber/hab00.html

[Tekir]

BTW, tayyip only knows Turkish and Arabic, how the hell did they manage to communicate?

http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/rids/20050703/i/r3638716372.jpg?
-"Say there Recep. Will you please spend hundreds of millions if not billions on a light carrier?
-Sure thing Kostas".

Excellent.....

[Tekir]

But yes, in 20 years, there might be one small carrier, which is fine for us.

[ASIMOV]

In 2014 Turkey will become a trillion-dollar GDP economy which can easily sustain a small aircraft carrier

[Tekir]

I agree with you, today it is not possible but I think in 2018 will be date fo F35 pendings. 15 VSTOL s are planned.

Carriers are not so expensive platforms especially the light ones. If we can purchase the 15 VSTOLs we can easily purchase the carrier.

Now lets concentrate on LPD and TD 2015.

And we need about 3 LPDs. or may be 2 LPD and 1 LHD.

This means each LPD/LHD needs an air defence destroyer (KDX - 3) :D

There are many things to buy. I think for the North African coasts at the moment we can patrol with tankers and F16/F4 s with Popeyes and Popeye 2s.

LPDs will put the fear to our middle easterner neighbors. :D

[Tekir]

Coastal defence will be done by

4 x MEKO (Yavuz class) Frigates
12 x MILGEM light frigates
4 x Type 209-1400s
6 x upgraded Type 209 1200s.

Now what we are currently planning is purchasing 4 x Type 214 subs and 1 LPD

Probably there will be one amphibious task force formed by

1 x LPD
1 x Spruance
1 x MEKO 200
1 x Perry
1 x Type 214 Sub
1 x Type 209-1400 Sub

And rest

1 x Spruance
3 x Meko
7 x Perry
3 x Type 214
3 x Type 209-1400

An addition to this armada will be 3-4 TD-2015/20, 2 LPD, and 2020s 4 Type 214 (I think to replace Type 209-1200s).

Carrier comes last I think.

But currently they say only one LPD will come. :D If this is really true, than in 2020 a carrier will come. :D

[Prometheus]

Prometheus, I hope you are not taking me seriously. I would want (like our Army) a carrier too but with this economical conditions, it is just impossible.

No problem.

Seriously though operationally speaking I don't see why Turkey needs this expensive toy. Even Spain and Italy are wasting their money IMO. A nation like Indonesia however yes, I can see how a nation like that (ie no massive interests abroad that require such a thing) would, seeing as they are an archipelago. Yes nations like these might have, if they can afford it a small one.

Remember it's not only about the carrier. It is outfitting it, it is training the personell, it is equipping it with aircraft, it is training the pilots to use a carrier, it is the support ships. Very very expensive.

[Prometheus]

In 2014 Turkey will become a trillion-dollar GDP economy which can easily sustain a small aircraft carrier

Whether your GDP reaches that level is irrelevant.

Whether your military budget can is another.

[ASIMOV]

As I said before, Turkey will reach the $1 trillion GDP benchmark in 2013-14.

By 2020 it will be around $ 1,5 trillion

We'll have the money
We'll have the guns
We'll have the jingo too

[ASIMOV]

LHD looks like a cool alternative, BTW.

[Tekir]

If we do not make US angry and do not dirft from the US float, I do not see a reason we can not achieve 1 trillion yearly overall GDP level.

It is a waste of money for Italy because they do not have neighbors like Iran and do not live in the presecence of countries like Saudi Arabia.

I am repeating Prometheus, I would like Greek enemity more than Mullah Iran and Saudi friendship.

Should I write it again?

[ASIMOV]

Why do Greeks think that our every single military purchase is for them?

There are more important issues on Turkey's security agenda than Greece, our NATO ally.

The funny thing is that the Greek government is trying to compete with Turkey in terms of military spending.

This might be possible for today, but it won't be possible tomorrow, when Turkey's population will reach 100 million and Greece's population will fall below 10 million, as Turkey's GDP nears $ 2 trillion.

Turkey and Greece are totally different countries, of different caliber, of different future roles on the globe.

Anyway, such a competition is not necessary, because unlike the Greek view of Turkey, the Turks don't see Greece as an enemy. As soon as the Cyprus problem is solved (and as long as Greece doesn't enhance its shores to 12 miles) there'll be an ever-growing brotherhood between the two nations on the Aegean.

Russia, Iran, the Middle East, the Islamists, the PKK, the ASALA leftovers, etc. are the real important issues on Turkey's security agenda.

Besides, aircraft carriers are mostly status symbols.

Other than carrying out operations beyond the reach of Turkey's defense forces, they'll be important for "showing flag" abroad.

[mic of Orion]

As I said before, Turkey will reach the $1 trillion GDP benchmark in 2013-14.

By 2020 it will be around $ 1,5 trillion

We'll have the money
We'll have the guns
We'll have the jingo too


if Turkey crosses 400BillonUS$ GDP mark it would be some sort of miracle as Turkish GDP atm is only 202BnUS$...
By 2014 I doubt it will double but hey it is possible, for trillion US$, you'd need to wait a bit, or a lot,. lol...
:) :)

[ASIMOV]

I was talking about GDP/ppp

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)

18) Turkey $ 570,748,000,000 (2005)

With average 5 % growth per year (it will actually be higher than that) Turkey's GDP/ppp will surpass $ 1 trillion in 2014

When Turkey's population will reach 100 million around 2040, it will become a multi-trillion dollar GDP/ppp economy.

[ASIMOV]

Turkey's nominal GDP is currently $ 340,263,000,000

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%29

21) Turkey $ 340,263,000,0000 (2005)

if Turkey crosses 400BillonUS$ GDP mark it would be some sort of miracle

I believe in miracles :angel:

[mic of Orion]

I was talking about GDP/ppp

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)

18) Turkey $ 570,748,000,000 (2005)

With average 5 % growth per year (it will actually be higher than that) Turkey's GDP/ppp will surpass $ 1 trillion in 2014

When Turkey's population will reach 100 million around 2040, it will become a multi-trillion dollar GDP/ppp economy.

but you need real money, not ghost money to pay for your navy, and with your ambitions I don't think you understand how expensive this can be...

(2015) 400 billion US$ x40% = 160Billion US$ for Budget, of this stay 10% goes to defence, than yes, you could probably afford small carrier, but at coast of social and health programs which in this case receive less money than Defence..

Well suffice to say Turkey won't be joining EU anyways so you can spend money on army, who cares... be poor and bacwood, we won't stop you ruining your country with glories of past deeds which have no relevance in present day security and defence apparatus of wider world.

Turkey is 3rd world country today and in 10 years time it will remain so if it continues with your rhetoric's Asimov, you are welcomed to it...

[ASIMOV]

Even today Turkey can afford a small aircraft carrier, never mind 2014.

And staying outside the EU doesn't mean "Third World" (Turkey is a member of NATO since 1952 by the way - I hope you know what "Third World" means)

Japan and South Korea are the examples for Turkey, not weak European statelets hiding under the EU umbrella.

[ASIMOV]

(2015) 400 billion US$ x40% = 160Billion US$ for Budget

I assume you always had problems with your mathematics teacher :D

How can Turkey's real GDP be $400 million in 2015 when currently its real GDP is $340,263,000,000 (2005) and GDP/ppp is $570,748,000,000 (2005)

When the IMF forecasts an average 5 to 7% yearly growth for Turkey in the next 10 years

[mic of Orion]

Turkey is third world country not because it is out of EU, but cose it is a poor country. And being member of NATO is not saying much...

And about EU, fine we are happy not to have you... Go and form Economic associations with Iran and alike it wouldn't make difference to me, actually I hope you do so, you can show of in there section instead of spamming and trolling ours here...

[ASIMOV]

Stubborn jackass :D

[Falcon83]

some other pics of the italian M.M. CAVOUR aircraft carrier

http://www.marina.difesa.it/diario/2004/cavour2/images/09.jpg

http://www.marina.difesa.it/diario/2004/cavour2/images/12.jpg

http://www.marina.difesa.it/diario/2004/cavour2/images/06.jpg

http://www.marina.difesa.it/diario/2004/cavour2/images/11.jpg

http://www.marina.difesa.it/diario/2004/cavour2/images/05.jpg

http://www.genovesato.it/smeraldi/foto/varo/varo9.jpg

http://www.marina.difesa.it/diario/2004/cavour/images/006.jpg

http://www.marina.difesa.it/diario/2004/cavour/images/001.jpg

[ASIMOV]

For some reason I always feel that I live in a rich country.

[mic of Orion]

I assume you always had problems with your mathematics teacher :D

How can Turkey's real GDP be $400 million in 2015 when currently its real GDP is $340,263,000,000 (2005) and GDP/ppp is $570,748,000,000 (2005)

When the IMF forecasts an average 5 to 7% yearly growth for Turkey in the next 10 years


yes I always had problems with mathematics, my teacher always told me to use real figures not imaginary ones, and to use proper calculations not made ones or as I go... I guess I should have learned from you, If I did, I would be teaching mathematics at University level... What a missed opportunity, genius like you, even Goebels needs to bow to your calculations manipulation propagation numbers... lol

Wow I even got this in a rime, wow, look I am even becoming a poet due to your teachings, lol

:hilarious :hilarious :hilarious :hilarious

[ASIMOV]

That's why all of my foreign friends leave this country with a mouth wide open :eek2:

Making comparisons between Istanbul and New York City

[mic of Orion]

That's why all of my foreign friends leave this country with a mouth wide open :eek2:

Making comparisons between Istanbul and New York City


as if you had any, lol, and I'd say most of them think wtf, what a a dump, I just waste my money, not coming back ever again...

[ASIMOV]

I was actually busy for the last few days showing them around (friends from Italy and France who came for Kerem's wedding)

It was their remarks, not mine.

Anyway, the truth is out there.

[willo]

Stubborn jackass :D


he is not wrong. turkey is a poor country or at least not a rich one

[ASIMOV]

Maybe not a G-8 member but a G-20 member

http://www.mercopress.com/ImgNoticias/logo_G20.jpg

http://www.g20.org/aboutg20.htm

[Prometheus]

Why do Greeks think that our every single military purchase is for them?

Come on Asim. No one said this. But if you examine Turkey's military procurements, you will see a silent acknowledgment of where they believe their greatest threat lies. This is not opinion but based on observation.

There are more important issues on Turkey's security agenda than Greece, our NATO ally.

Perhaps. But where the greatest military issue is is another matter.

The funny thing is that the Greek government is trying to compete with Turkey in terms of military spending.

Not at all.

This might be possible for today, but it won't be possible tomorrow, when Turkey's population will reach 100 million and Greece's population will fall below 10 million, as Turkey's GDP nears $ 2 trillion.

Whoa whoa there Asim, relax a second here and take in the scenery.

You're fantasizing now I think.

Just remember that tacitly both nations agree that they drive one another to buy weaponry. This is why 4 years ago both announced billion dollar military programs would be 'delayed'. Both within some days of one another. This is not a coincidence.

While we of course cannot claim to have a real enemy other than Turkey, and yes, we do know you border Iran, Syria, Iraq etc.

But Asim, as I've shown you, even with these nasty sounding countries beside you, most of your combat power is not deployed against them.

Anyway, such a competition is not necessary, because unlike the Greek view of Turkey, the Turks don't see Greece as an enemy. As soon as the Cyprus problem is solved (and as long as Greece doesn't enhance its shores to 12 miles) there'll be an ever-growing brotherhood between the two nations on the Aegean.

Yes I linked you the article to Radikal's poll in which Greece is considered the biggest enemy.

As for the Aegean, you cannot provide ultimatum's and directives to Greece to what she may do with her airspace and sealanes.

The Law of the Sea has been adopted by Turkey in the Black Sea and along it's southern coast. We call this hypocracy.

Besides, aircraft carriers are mostly status symbols.

It's a waste of money. What interests do you have to sailing up and down the coast of north Africa? Is Cyprus that far away from Turkey?

It doesn't make operational sense. But, if it makes you all feel better, do it.

[ASIMOV]

It's very normal: Everything valuable in Turkey is located at the west side of the country.

Has nothing to do with Greece.

According to the average Turk, Greece can't even be a threat to Turkey.

Turks have the sort of pre-WW1 German over-confidence with regards to France about Greece.

"Greece doesn't even qualify as a rival" in the minds of most Turks.

But apart from that, we actually like you guys. :)

[ASIMOV]

In the short term:

1 LHD

http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/static/content/data/[(1554)-16-09-2003]ocean.jpg

2 LPD

http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/static/pages/data/gallery/medium/1097066144m.jpg

TCVL (light STOVL) will come much later

[ASIMOV]

Greece to ask U.S. for two Arleigh Burke destroyers
by PERICLES N. ZORZOVILIS, ATHENS

Less than three years after the retirement of the Themistoclis, the last Charles F. Adams-class guided missile destroyer, the Hellenic Navy is ready to officially request two newer vessels from the U.S. Navy.

Navy officials have prepared and will soon send a letter of request for a pair of used Arleigh Burke-class guided missile destroyers under a government-to-government agreement, said Navy Capt. Stefanos Gikas, a spokesman for the Ministry of Defense here. Details about schedule, cost, transfer conditions and weapons would need to be worked out.

“The response of the U.S. administration in the letter of request will be the decisive factor for the implementation of the program,” a high-level Hellenic Navy official said. “What can be said at this initial stage is that the number of the ships should eventually increase to three or four; only at this force level would the introduction of a highly capable and complicated weapon system be worth the initial investment.”

Greece also is asking the United States for four Osprey-class mine-warfare ships and a number of P-3C Orion maritime patrol aircraft. “All these requests will be managed in the framework of the Greek-U.S. Defense and Industrial Cooperation agreement, which governs the military relations of the two allies,” Gikas said.

The destroyers, which carry the Aegis weapons system, are far more capable than anything in Greece’s current fleet. Adm. Panagiotis Chinofotis, chief of the Hellenic National Defense General Staff, said the Burkes would improve Greek and NATO capabilities by:

• Increasing the interoperability of the Greek military and NATO allies.

• Giving Greece a tactical ballistic missile defense capability, thereby allowing the country to participate more actively in similar allied efforts.

• Strengthening NATO’s southeast region, where hot spots and increasing asymmetric threats have drawn more and more alliance attention over the last decade.

• Helping Greece participate in allied missions overseas.

Chinofotis emphasized that “the transfer will also signal the expansion of the Hellenic-U.S. cooperation in the armaments field and the strengthening of the bonds between the two navies, which are more than 100 years old,” he said.

The transfer of the Burkes also may affect the Hellenic Navy’s effort to buy new frigates, the service’s largest program. A proposal to buy one ship with an option for a second is being included in the preliminary drafts of the next five-year unified armaments procurement plan — known as the 2006-10 EMPAE.

The frigate effort will replace the corvette program that was canceled because of excessive costs in November 2002. Some 588 million euros ($722 million) had been planned for the corvettes in 2006-10.

“The picture will become less obscure when the formal process for the 2006-10 EMPAE starts,” the Navy official said. “Until then, everything is a matter of speculation and alternate options.” But he said Greece was determined to maintain a fleet of 14 major surface combatants.

The Navy now operates four Hydra-class (German MEKO-200HN) and 10 Elli-class (Dutch Standard) multipurpose frigates. Six of the Ellis are getting a midlife upgrade under a 386 million euro contract awarded in 2003 to Thales Naval Nederland, Hengelo, the Netherlands, and Hellenic Shipyards, Skaramanga, Greece. A midlife upgrade for the Hydras will begin in 2010.

[ASIMOV]

Turkey orders 12 new S-70B SEAHAWK helicopters

June 10, 2005

STRATFORD, CT, Sikorsky Aircraft announced today it has signed a memorandum of understanding with the Government of Turkey for 12 new S-70B SEAHAWK helicopters plus an option for five additional helicopters. First deliveries are scheduled to begin in 2008.

Sikorsky previously delivered eight S-70B SEAHAWK helicopters to Turkey and its Land Forces also operate more than 100 S-70A BLACK HAWK helicopters.

"We are delighted that Turkey has selected the SEAHAWK for this vital mission," said Joseph Gigantelli, Sikorsky Regional Vice President of Worldwide Sales. "The SEAHAWK is the most modern and capable anti-submarine warfare (ASW) and anti-surface unit warfare (ASuW) helicopter in the world."

The S-70B helicopter is an international derivative of the U.S. Navy SH-60B SEAHAWK. The S-70B has a fully integrated glass cockpit with smart multifunction liquid crystal displays and a mission management system. Its flexible mission package includes dipping sonar, ESM, FLIR, multi-mode radar, ASE, and Penguin and Hellfire missiles. Multi-mission capable, the S-70B can perform Search and Rescue (SAR), Medical Evacuation (MEDEVAC), surveillance, Vertical Replenishment (VERTREP), and utility missions.

Other international SEAHAWK customers include Australia, Greece, Japan, Spain and Thailand. Sikorsky is also under contract to deliver six S-70B SEAHAWK helicopters to Singapore beginning in 2008.

Sikorsky Aircraft Corporation, based in Stratford, Conn., is a world leader in helicopter design, manufacturing and service. Sikorsky is a subsidiary of United Technologies Corporation (NYSE:UTX), of Hartford, Conn., which provides a broad range of high-technology products and support services to the aerospace and building systems industries.

http://www.sikorsky.com/details/0,3036,CLI1_DIV69_ETI2096,00.html

[Nemo]

Does anyone know what the top 10 or top 20 most powerful navy's in the world is. I simply cannot find it anywhere. :)

http://www.wga.hu/art/v/velde/willem_e/council.jpg
The old "de Zeven Provincien" ; flagship of admiral Michiel de Ruyter.

http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/n/nl-jack.gif

http://www.ibiblio.org/maritime/photolibrary/albums/ftp/frgt_f802/normal_f802_wcool__12.jpg

http://www.ibiblio.org/maritime/photolibrary/albums/ftp/frgt_f802/normal_f802_wcool__13.jpg

http://www.ibiblio.org/maritime/photolibrary/albums/userpics/10001/normal_262680661ZKmpbq_fs.jpg

http://www.ibiblio.org/maritime/photolibrary/albums/userpics/10001/normal_261402997XKTABV_fs.jpg

http://www.ibiblio.org/maritime/photolibrary/albums/userpics/10001/normal_F804_4.jpg

http://www.ibiblio.org/maritime/photolibrary/albums/ftp/lndng_l800/normal_l800_wcool_4.jpg

http://www.ibiblio.org/maritime/photolibrary/albums/userpics/10001/normal_f830.jpg

[Falcon83]

Saturday morning I've been on the LPD "Rotterdam" in Amsterdam, simply amazing!!

[nick_taylor]

some other pics of the italian M.M. CAVOUR aircraft carrierOperation Judgement II then eh? ;)

[Pavlvs]

Operation Judgement II then eh? ;)

No, Operation Conquest of Britannia II :D:D:D ;)

[Falcon83]

may be "Operation f..k the Invincible Class I";)

[nick_taylor]

No, Operation Conquest of Britannia II :D:D:D ;)Garibaldi tried and failed, so instead we invaded post Austro-Hungarian. ;)

[Matthieu]

isn't the invincible class is the ark royal class now the invincible is soon to be decomissioned?

[Tekir]

I hope you might be interested with 9 x 16'' guns. :D

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=247997

Obselete but enigmatic. ;)

[nick_taylor]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/4e/Carrier_comparison.PNG




http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/8f/CVF.png/800px-CVF.png




Future home of the 2 CVF's:

Portsmouth, England - Largest naval port outside the US,
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/52/Portsmouth.naval.750pix.jpg

[Falcon83]

yes...dream nick ;), may be in 2040.

[pricemazda]

well the government has already selected a manufacturer for the 2 CVFs we will have. Our existing carriers are due to be decommisioned so they will be built.

[nick_taylor]

Actually its not long till they start getting built. Earlier this year, Kellogg, Brown & Root were chosen as the physical integrators and contracts are still being handed out. Steel cutting starts in 2006 with eventual service sometime after 2010. They'll have to be ready around then as the current carriers are practically at the end of their life. The Cavour will only be finished a few years before the 2 CVF's enter service and each one will be some 2.5x larger than the Cavour.

Displacement List in tonnes by Ship
Giuseppe Garibaldi - 13,850 (Active till 2008)
Principe de Asturias - 17,190 (Active - unknown)
HMS Invincible - 20,400 (Active till 2010)
HMS Illustrious - 20,400 (Active till 2012)
HMS Ark Royal - 20,400 (Active till 2015)
MM Cavour - 26,660 (Due 2008)
FS Charles de Gaulle - 40,500 (Active)
FS Georges Pompidou - 58,000 (Due 2015)
HMS Prince of Wales - 65,000 (Due 2012)
HMS Queen Elizabeth - 65,000 (Due 2015)


Displacement in Tonnes by Country in 2015
Italy: Marina Militare - 26,660
France: Marine Nationale - 98,500
United Kingdom: Royal Navy - 130,000




That said currently the UK has the 2nd largest total aircraft carrier displacement of any world navy after the US, it shall remain so for a good few decades and the new CVF's will continue this trend well into the 21st century. The Royal Navy and French Marine Naionale will be the EU's spearhead of major naval power for, if not the entire 21st century. Détritus shall be proud! ;)

[Falcon83]

.....The Cavour will be in service in less than 2 years, and probably it will have a bigger twin.

[pricemazda]

Have the names been decided upon Nick?

I am surprised they won't continue the tradition of Invincible though?

[nick_taylor]

.....The Cavour will be in service in less than 2 years, and probably it will have a bigger twin.The Marina Militare want another carrier to replace the now defunct Vittorio Veneto. That would be around 25-30,000 in displacement, ie either the same size as the Cavour or only a few hundred tonne more. The chances of it getting built though are pretty much non-existant, what with the current economic and demographic problems that Italy is facing. I should note though, that you joked earlier of 2040 for the 2 CVF's that the UK will be getting - 2040 is quite literally the probable date (if ever) of a slightly larger carrier for Italy coming into existence.




pricemazda - They were leaked, although they could be temporary project names. Invincible and Illustrious are two kick ass names! Each one is going to be massive though, equivalent in size to all 3 current carriers. Both will be the closest that the EU will get towards having carriers the size of the Nimitz.

[pricemazda]

But the history of the name Invincible goes back such a long way. I can't imagine the flagship of the Royal Navy not being called Invincible.

I think we should have HMS Winston Churchill though as well.

[Milgem]

Recent news from the Turkish Navy

1) Purchase of 2 + 2 Spruance class destroyers

http://www.usselliot.org/photos/967-05.jpg

2) Construction began for twelve Milgem class corvettes (Turkish design)

http://wowturkey.com/tr56/Kazandibi_milgem.gif

- Stealth hull
- Low infrared signature (water filtered exhaust)
- Mk.41 VLS (Vertical Launch System)
- ESSM (Evolved Sea Sparrow Missile)
- Asroc VLA (Vertical Launch Asroc)
- 4x2 Harpoon SSM
- 1 RAM CIWS
- 76mm OTO Melara rapid firing gun
- 10t helicopter platform (1 x Seahawk)
- hull mounted fixed sonar (Turkish designed long-range active sonar)
- 3D medium range search radar
- Fire control radar
- Turkish fire control and ship management system
- Connection with Turkish AEW&C/AWACS planes and military satellites

3) "Genesis" upgrade for Perry class frigates (connecting them with AEW&C/AWACS planes and military satellites, completely new command & control systems)

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y24/nutuk/genesis3.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y24/nutuk/genesis2.jpg

http://www.mam.gov.tr/enstituler/bte/projeler/ginesis1.jpg

4) Purchase of ten ATR-72 ASW/ASuW planes

http://www.ssm.gov.tr/library/projects/hava_arac_tr/meltem_3_files/ATR-72-ASW.jpg

http://www.atraircraft.com/pictures/aswstore.gif

5) Purchase of 17 more Seahawk helicopters

6) Construction of 16 more ASW/ASuW patrol boats

7) Purchase of 6 more CASA 235 ASW/ASuW planes

[Falcon83]

The Marina Militare want another carrier to replace the now defunct Vittorio Veneto. That would be around 25-30,000 in displacement, ie either the same size as the Cavour or only a few hundred tonne more. The chances of it getting built though are pretty much non-existant, what with the current economic and demographic problems that Italy is facing. I should note though, that you joked earlier of 2040 for the 2 CVF's that the UK will be getting - 2040 is quite literally the probable date (if ever) of a slightly larger carrier for Italy coming into existence.






ok we will see what will happen in 2015....and 2040 :|

http://www.forbes.com/home/feeds/ap/2005/08/11/ap2177731.html

ah...isn't the "The Ecommunist", ops pardon "The Economist" the same magazin which has bashed Berlusconi and licked Schroeder's ass the last week, few days before the german elections? Is it good to use it at the toilet?

[nick_taylor]

ok we will see what will happen in 2015....and 2040 :|

http://www.forbes.com/home/feeds/ap/2005/08/11/ap2177731.html

ah...isn't the "The Ecommunist", ops pardon "The Economist" the same magazin which has bashed Berlusconi and licked Schroeder's ass the last week, few days before the german elections? Is it good to use it at the toilet?By 2040, the UK and France could have more CVF's or larger Nimitz-sized carriers for all we know, while 2015 is the known date for the last currently known ordered ships that we know will get built. There's more chance of London building a 400m tower than Italy building a second carrier, let alone being a considerable naval power for Europe in the present of forseeable future!


I'm unsure why your calling The Economist 'communist', as if you've ever read it (I so happen to be a subscriber), it is anything BUT communist - its principally anti-communist! Thats like saying someone is German when they're really Japanese!

Also if you had read the actual article by Forbes, you would note that it said: "Economists surveyed by Dow Jones Newswires had forecast growth would be 0.3 percent in the April-June period. Compared to the same quarter last year, Italy's statistics office Istat said GDP rose 0.1 percent."

As you can see, it states that it polled a few economists, while The Economist actually got its 0.1% figure from the Italian Statistical Office: ISTAT (it mentions this in the article as to only boost my point). It does this for all its figures - sourcing them from the relevant country's statistical body! Now its good to be critical, but at the very least you should do some research before making idiotic assumptions about publications, economics, etc that you clearly seem to lack much understanding in.

[Falcon83]

By 2040, the UK and France could have more CVF's or larger Nimitz-sized carriers for all we know, while 2015 is the known date for the last currently known ordered ships that we know will get built. There's more chance of London building a 400m tower than Italy building a second carrier, let alone being a considerable naval power for Europe in the present of forseeable future!

[QUOTE=nick-taylor]
I'm unsure why your calling The Economist 'communist', as if you've ever read it (I so happen to be a subscriber), it is anything BUT communist - its principally anti-communist! Thats like saying someone is German when they're really Japanese!

The Economist supports the conservatives in England and the left in the rest of Europe, it's an old dirty game.

Also if you had read the actual article by Forbes, you would note that it said: "Economists surveyed by Dow Jones Newswires had forecast growth would be 0.3 percent in the April-June period. Compared to the same quarter last year, Italy's statistics office Istat said GDP rose 0.1 percent."

As you can see, it states that it polled a few economists, while The Economist actually got its 0.1% figure from the Italian Statistical Office: ISTAT (it mentions this in the article as to only boost my point). It does this for all its figures - sourcing them from the relevant country's statistical body! Now its good to be critical, but at the very least you should do some research before making idiotic assumptions about publications, economics, etc that you clearly seem to lack much understanding in.
Idiotic assumption?
You said we are in recession, well...we're not.

[nick_taylor]

The Economist supports the conservatives in England and the left in the rest of Europe, it's an old dirty game.

Idiotic assumption?
You said we are in recession, well...we're not.Do you know anything about political ideologies? Conservatism is not the same as socialism as you believe The Economist 'follows', or are you contradicting your last post? Also in the last general election it endorsed the Labour Party (led by Tony Blair).

Also quote me where I said that Italy was in recession? I haven't so you'll have trouble finding that - I have said though via PM that Italy was growing at 0.1% (which is pretty much stagnant), which it is according to ISTAT. Unless you want to state that the Italian Statistical Agency don't know what they are talking about when it comes to Italy?

[pricemazda]

is 0.1% in a possible margin of error, in all large scale stats methodology and error can effect the results. Nick correct me if im wrong but isn't 0.25 and udner techinically stagnant?

[Nemo]

Does anyone know the top 10 most powerful navy's of the world????


I can't find it, so if anyone knows; thanks! :)

[pricemazda]

I would imagine it would go something like this;

1: USA
2: Russia (even though all their ships are rusting and date from the days of the USSR)
3. UK
4. France (although the UK and France are probably on the same level)
5. Japan
6. China
7. Italy

[Matthieu]

On the next British carriers, there are a lot of unclear points. 65,000 tons is the often given value but I wouldn't be that sure about it even naval-technology.com say it will be between 55,000 and 65,000 tons (65,000 being the most optimistic value).

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/cvf/

The design continues to evolve but CVF is expected to displace 55,000t to 65,000t, a size between the USA's 100,000t Nimitz class and France's 43,000t Charles de Gaulle class aircraft carriers, and three times larger than the 20,000t UK Invincible class carriers.

The next French carrier is clearly anounced at 59,000 tons. Georges Pompidou is a suggested name, not the definitive one.

http://www.dcn.fr/produits/porte_avion.html?PHPSESSID=edeb3d37c36ab3c56779da80de0d0f2c

[nick_taylor]

Pricemazda - Unsure of definitions within ISTAT and the methodology of their calculations, but 0.1% growth is stagnation - ie negligible growth.




Détritus - 1,000t difference is probably due to the 'weight' on-board and with ships these size - its not that much, depends on sources and more up-to-date designs I assume. Also the title is simply just for guidance.

I should note that the 55,000t design is the old one, the 65,000t is the new one. The new larger ships are the reason the South Hampshire Light Rail has run into problems. This is because the system would have gone under the Portsmouth Harbour mouth in a box on the seabed, the larger carriers though have meant this idea is un-wise due to risk of possible collision and breach of the tram box. An underwater tunnel is also not probable due to the requirement of steep grades to get in and out of the tunnel on each confined side of the harbour mouth. ;)

[Matthieu]

Could you find me an official link? Because on the matter of the next British Carriers I've read everything and its contrary. Like that the new design should be smaller than the expected one (the complete contrary of your post).

The naval-technology article on those was updated today (not an old article :P ) they are the one I would rather trust actually before many other sources.

[nick_taylor]

http://navy-matters.beedall.com/cvf1-01.htm - very detail analysis and shows the three designs put forward. Maybe you've been reading the wrong things. ;)

[Matthieu]

Not a very official source isn't it? I won't read it all, I'll go directly to the specification area.

The original model (from where both the French and British model will be made from) is 65,000 tons. The Delta design is also 65,000 tons but if you read what's writen in small under the page about it (yes there is something small to read):

After discussions with stakeholders, the 'optimised' design grew during the fourth quarter of 2003 to 55-60,000 tonnes with a maximum aircraft capacity of 40 including 36 JSF's. By early 2004 official preference was in favour of this grown 'delta' design, as a cost-effective compromise or 'equilibrium' between the less capable and very cramped 'optimised' design and the expensive 'adaptable' design, but still with economies in equipment.

Taken from your own link, so it'll be 55,000 to 65,000 and 65,000 is the optimistic project.

40 aircraft is the capacity of the Charles de Gaulle BTW.

http://navy-matters.beedall.com/cvf1-02.htm

[mic of Orion]

OK Guys let me update this a bit, Détritus you’ll like this a lot, lol

France is to build second carrier (no name as of yet - “Romeo” as proposed interim name, most likely it will bare name of late president “François Mitterrand”)…


The announcement by President Jacques Chirac that France is to build a second aircraft carrier, with conventional propulsion, puts the design task on a sound footing and paves the way for broad cooperation.
Following major contributions to the preliminary design effort, DCN will now gear up for the design phase proper and demonstrate once again its expertise as a prime contractor for sophisticated warship programmes.
This programme is the latest in a long series for which DCN has acted as prime or co-prime contractor, including nuclear submarines, the Charles de Gaulle aircraft carrier, Horizon anti-air frigates, and FREMM multi-role frigates. Both frigate programmes involve broad cooperation with European partners.
With its new status as state enterprise run on business lines, DCN looks forward to the opportunity to play a pivotal role in this project and work closely with new and established partners

http://www.dcn.fr/us/produits/img/romeo.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/8f/CVF.png/800px-CVF.png

Length: 284m
Beam (across flight deck) 74m
Displacement – 58700 Gross tones
Max Speed: 27knots
Endurance: 50-56 Days
Accommodation: 1800
Crew: 1250

http://www.dcn.fr/us/produits/porte_avion.html


Along with Romeo Class 17 FREMM Frigates to be built, each 134-142m long, displacing 5000 tones, armed with 8 Excoset missiles, and 48 Aster 30 SAM system, RAM system, CIWS, 2x 12.7mm MG's, 2x2 Torpedo Tubes, ASW Helicopter, jammer and EWC suite...


http://www.dcn.fr/us/produits/fregate.html#1


The European Multi-Mission Frigates (FREMM) is a joint program between France and Italy to develop and deploy a new generation frigate by 2010. The FREMM will be provided in two versions for anti-submarine warfare (ASW) and land attack missions. Each frigate type will feature the same defense capabilities and hardware against airborne threats and surface ships. A NH90 helicopter and land attack cruise missiles could be carried in both versions.
The anti-submarine warfare (ASW) FREMM will feature a towed sonar and extra torpedoes load. The land attack FREMM will feature unmanned aircraft vehicles (UAVs) and the capability to infiltrate commandos on the enemy shore. The propulsion system would be built around a gas turbine.
The French Navy and the Italian Navy require up to 27 FREMM frigates with deliveries beginning in 2008 and will continue over the second decade of the 21st century. This program started when both countries achieved an initial agreement in 2002. Frigates ordered by both countries will differ depending upon mission requirements outlined by each Navy.
In October 2004, Alenia Marconi Systems (AMS) released that it had been selected as key supplier for the FREMM program. EMPAR radar system developed by AMS for the Horizon program will form the core of the missile system. AMS will supply a new generation IFF radar, the RAN 30X/I medium range radar, NA-25 fire control system, together with the Dual Weapon Assignment Logic Unit (DWALU).

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/meko/images/mekoA200.jpg
New French Frigates look quite similar to this German (MEKO) A200 Frigates, I couldn't find any photos of FREMM Frigates, sorry, hope it give's you an idea how it might look...

[nick_taylor]

It might not be an official Royal Navy/BAe Systems/Thales website, but neither is navy-technology.com! Both are insider-sites though, but my source just happens to have more actual relevant information on every aspect of the CVF. I think the reason that you choose not to read it is nothing to do with its status, but more down to the fact that you didn't come up with it first and the fact that it gives a more detailed and accurate overview of the CVF than navy-technology.com or any other website that I know of that is in the public domain. ;)

That said, if you had noted all the other points, you would note that its actually been growing since the original alpha design and Lloyds Register and Jane's Navy International had noted that the latest design is up to 65,000t and 295m (larger in length than the original 3 plans). The Alpha variant though could carry 46 craft.

[mic of Orion]

Does anyone know when and if UK plans to replace its Duke Class frigates, F23 Class, I know 16 are currently in service but I also heard 3-4 are being sold to foreign buyers quite soon, 2007/8 or something, any ideas about replacements for F23 Class? thanx...

[Tekir]

@Mic,

Are you guys having 2 x 60000 tons CVFs because I read in a questionable source that the number was decreased to 1?

Can you please give me info about that?

No doubt CVF' s will make UK as the #2 Navy of the world.

[mic of Orion]

^UK is getting 2 Carriers, both will be around 59 000-65 000 tons, Defence White paper stated this size and number of carriers, including the costs and size of Air Group, but no name as of yet, preliminary name, Prince of Wales and Queen Elisabeth where given to the proposed ships. I have strong doubts whether this are actual names, I hope they are not, as some might think they are luxury liners, lmao..

As to the size, specification are 65 000 tons, 294m long, 74m width and Air Group of 36-40 F35's, 4 EH101 Merlin's, 4 EH101 ASW and 2 EH101 AEW... Crew of about 1200 including air group of 600 personal...
It' would be identical to new French carrier (could be slightly larger) but all 3 carriers 1 French and 2 British are part of same deal Thales, BA Systems, DCN, French and British Governments agreed on in 2004, and in subsequent defence white paper which came out earlier his year...

Naturally French carriers would use Rafael Fighters instead of F35's and number of fighters would be lower, I think Air Group of 30-36 Rafael's, 4 E2C Hawkeye AEW, 4 NH 90 ASW and 4 AS532 Cougar Helicopters...

UK will also consider second Helicopter Carrier but reduce number of Bay class Landing and Logistic ships to 4 (from 5).

I think if you go to UK Parliament pages every document parliament has discussed (for past 10 years) is on there website, you can actually ce de details of Defence White Paper and study it in more details, but I must advise you it is very long, about 100 000 words or about 90 pages....

[Quezalcoatl26]

Well, hard to tell as we have both old ships and new ships. The modern ones and future ones will be using Asters mostly it seems. As the next Horizon fregate will have those, the CdG have those, the La Fayette fregate have those.

i think he meant CIWS missiles or gun for short range defence. In France this would be the crotale or the sadral.

crotale

http://www.netmarine.net/bat/fregates/tourvil/photo12.jpg

Sadral

http://www.netmarine.net/armes/sadral/photo01.jpg

Simbad

20mm gun F2
http://www.netmarine.net/armes/20f2/photo01.jpg

[Tekir]

What I understood from your message is, you will have 2 carriers while French will have 1 carrier.

You will have 232 EF 2000, Germans will have just 140

You will have 150 JSF

Mate have you decided to reconquer the world again? :D LOL :D

This force will outclass the other forces in the world, except US...

But I think, it is not UK who invests more money, I think, pacifist EU countries do not spend money on arms.

I think EU should have as much carriers as USA, if they ever want to be super power, independent of USA.

Keep up good work UK. :D

[Matthieu]

What I understood from your message is, you will have 2 carriers while French will have 1 carrier.

No, we'll have two. We're not ending the CdG.

By 2020 we should have:

2 aircraft carriers (Charles de Gaulle and PA2)
2 helicopter carriers (Mistral and Tonerre)
2 smaller helicopter carriers (Foudre and Sirocco)
4 tactical subs (Triomphant class)
6 attack subs (Barracuda class)
Maybe 2 cruisers (to be discussed)
4 Horizon destroyers
17 FREMM
7 La Fayette class

294 Rafale
300 Mirage 2000
At least 80 Eurocopter Tiger (possibly up to 150)

And other minor stuffs

[mic of Orion]

What I understood from your message is, you will have 2 carriers while French will have 1 carrier.

You will have 232 EF 2000, Germans will have just 140

You will have 150 JSF

Mate have you decided to reconquer the world again? :D LOL :D

This force will outclass the other forces in the world, except US...

But I think, it is not UK who invests more money, I think, pacifist EU countries do not spend money on arms.

I think EU should have as much carriers as USA, if they ever want to be super power, independent of USA.

Keep up good work UK. :D


German order is not final, they ordered first batch of about 140 Typhoons (Intr), cose they have F4'sa for ground missile strike (FGA), F4's are very old and they are likely to be replaced by additional batch of 60 or so Typhoons (FGA), you need to include Germany Navy as well, they would probably look to replace Panavia-Tornado IDS fighters (24) with Typhoons.

I think overall, Germany has requirement for 240 Typhoons...

I think Royal Navy is actually getting smaller, I am quite disappointed with this fact, in 2000 RN had 32 escorts (+2 in mothball), 12DDG's and 20 FFG's from optimal 35 Escorts required for task, and even as we speak this number is being reduced to 25 (Defence White Paper - First Draft - Published November 2004)...

Future composition of UK's RN should consist of 9-10DDG's and 15-16 FFG's, 2CV's, "HCV, 2LDS and so on...

In European scope French Navy will be larger, and world scopes, Russian, US, Chinese, Japanese and S. Korean navies are larger. You can derive to your own conclusions for this facts...

[SHiRO]

In European scope French Navy will be larger, and world scopes, Russian, US, Chinese, Japanese and S. Korean navies are larger. You can derive to your own conclusions for this facts...
Quality over quantity...:D

[pricemazda]

well the world is changing its not so much about how much brute force a nation has but how effective it is in protecting force and power far away from home. So for S.Korea its concern is with N.Korea and China but not in projecting power into the Gulf.

[SHiRO]

France, the UK and Japan will still have the second most powerfull navies in the world after the US, no matter if China or Russia has more ships.
Russia's are still rusting away in the ports and they can't even salvage a broke down (again) sub themselves and China has second rate technology and no real blue water navy...

[Matthieu]

The problem with Russia is maintenance, but as they'll get wealthier, they'll get more powerful.

I'm amazed by the potential of the Kirov class cruisers and Akula class submarines. They need more maintenance but with the money of th EU they would kick arses.

[pricemazda]

the problem with Russia's navy is, it is still restricted to ice packed ports or going thru other countries waters, ie the Baltic Sea, the Bosphorus

[Frenipatlak]

Tekir, any news about the LHD and LPDs of the Horsebackridin' Barbarian Navy?

[Frenipatlak]

http://www.dzkk.tsk.mil.tr/turkce/Modernizasyon/MILGEM.GIF

The video is quite funny

http://www.dzkk.tsk.mil.tr/turkce/Modernizasyon/Milgem_Video.wmv

[mic of Orion]

Quality over quantity...:D

true
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

well the world is changing its not so much about how much brute force a nation has but how effective it is in protecting force and power far away from home. So for S.Korea its concern is with N.Korea and China but not in projecting power into the Gulf.


true, :cheers: :cheers:

France, the UK and Japan will still have the second most powerfull navies in the world after the US, no matter if China or Russia has more ships.


true, :cheers:


Russia's are still rusting away in the ports and they can't even salvage a broke down (again) sub themselves and China has second rate technology and no real blue water navy... I don't agree with this assessment...

This would have been case say in 2002 or before, after 2003, Russian Navy has gone thought massive reforms, Russian Defence Budget has doubled and now there is plenty of cash for all this programs, new ships are joining the navy and Russia is asserting its dominance, but I do think it will take few more years (20+) before Russian asserts its position it held in 1980's..

As to Chinese navy I would have agreed with you on this about month ago, when I held same opinion, but I was woken up in North American Skybar (embarrassed major way) thinking all amaers are s***d and they know jack shit, I was proven wrong and made look stupid (major way) when I talked about Chinese navy, just to tell you this, doo the research on Chinese Navy, they are going places, I was amazed, fuck they even got AGEIS destroyers, I couldn't believe when I saw the reports, all legit on the net... Where the hell got all this ships in past 3-4 years, they are no longer a pushover I always thought of them to be...

You'd be amazed how well they are armed, and they are really scaring me now, I think in 30-40 years China might be a great superpower...
PS, Chinese are getting One or 2 aircraft carriers, :eek2:

[mic of Orion]

OK, just to dispel any conjectures here, this is not Turkish design or Turkish owned ships or anything Asimov might have said, I never bothered to respond to this BS cose he would come with more shit and start entire thread about it,
it is American designed ships to be exact,
LITTORAL COMBAT SHIP (LCS) HIGH-SPEED SURFACE SHIP

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/littoral/images/LCS_4.jpg
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/littoral/images/LCS_10.jpg

Turkey has plans to buy several of this ships, naturally it is awaiting Congress and Senate approval..

[Prometheus]

This would have been case say in 2002 or before, after 2003, Russian Navy has gone thought massive reforms, Russian Defence Budget has doubled and now there is plenty of cash for all this programs, new ships are joining the navy and Russian is asserting its dominance, but I do think it will take few more years (20+) before Russian asserts its position it held in 1980's..


The Russian navy is a mish mash of disorganized poorly trained and poorly commanded forces. It's a lame goose in terms of challenging the United States or even the strongest European navies. Nevermind phantom defence budgets (of which the Russian Federation has always been secretive and dishonest about).

As for China, she has a long way to go even be able to take Taiwan, let alone other things.

[mic of Orion]

^thanx for the input, I agree Russia is still far from what it was, but it is not pushover, remember most of Russian cruisers are armed with very advanced weaponry and most carry tactical nuclear weapons, Cruisers and above..

I agree Russia is still week and its navy needs major improvements but things are getting better, lol

As to China, I repeat dooooooooooooo the research.... I did and was amazed at Chinese Naval power, true they are not strong enough to take on US and Taiwan but on Taiwan certainly are...

Taiwanese Navy Consist of 14 Frigates, 4 Destroyers, 24 Corvettes and 30 Gun boats, which ensures Taiwanese safety to some extent, I would certainly go for Taiwan if there where to be a war, I love underdogs, lol, but you must face reality... China is no longer a pushover and I ask you to do the research, I did it and was amazed how rapidly that country is developing its military doctrine...

[Matthieu]

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/carriers.htm

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/carriers.gif

[Matthieu]

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/dpa.htm

Second Aircraft Carrier / Deuxième Porte-Avions

France has lacked the capacity to ensure long-distance air coverage during the Charles-de-Gaulle’s maintenance cycles or during other periods when the carrier is not available for active duty (approximately 35% of the time). In 2015, the Charles-de-Gaulle will be taken out of service for an extensive maintenance overhaul. By beginning the construction of a second carrier in 2005/6, the French hope to take delivery by 2014, meaning the new ship is likely to be operational by the time the older vessel goes off line for repairs.

The use of two aicraft carriers guarantees a permanence presence in a zone of conflict withough interfering with rotations or training. The aero-naval group scheduled for 2015, will be composed solely of the "Rafale" aircraft, equiped with fighting capabilities far superior to ones currently available. These aircraft require an aircraft carrier adapted to not only to them but also the the eventual mutations in embarked aviation capabilities in the foreseable future for the horizon 2050, specifically as far as the use of UCAV (Unmanned Combat Aerial Vehicles) are concerned.

Two aircraft carriers are necessary to ensure the operational permanence of the air and sea group which makes it possible the political authority to have a capacity sovereign and always available of projection of power starting from the sea.

With the "Charles Of Gaulle", France has such a capacity during as well as possible 65% of time, situation which will perdurera for ten years more and will have to be taken into account by the political and operational decision makers. For the periods of programmed maintenance or in the event of unavailability of the " Charles Of Gaulle ", the second aircraft carrier ensures the permanence of the capacities of projection of power long distance starting from the sea and the control of the air-sea field.

The placement of two aircraft carriers guarantees the permanence of the action on the zone of engagement. The transits for the changings as well as the activity of drive can also be carried out without obérer the operational capacities.

Although sometimes described a a sister ship to the "Charles Of Gaulle", the second aircraft carrier will in fact be considerably larger, with a larger landing deck and hangar. It will also incoporate ammunition stores and munition preparation areas adapted to the need for the operations being conducted, with heavily charged configurations, adpated fuel storage volumes, aeronautic workshops, and areas specifically tasked with the stockpiling of aeronautical materials in support of the vessel's aerial group. This results in a fully loaded displacement of 59,000 tons, versus 40,600 tons for the CDG.

On 13 February 2004 the French government announced that it had selected the conventional propulsion option for its second aircraft carrier, rather than building an additional nuclear propulsion carrier. The need for an aicraft carrier of larger in size than the Charles de Gaulle, able to achieve a speed of 27 knots, would have necessitated important modifications in the propulsion system as a result of the increased tonnage. This modification would have resulted as well in modifying the safety norms established for the Charles de Gaulle either through the use of existing boiler rooms with expanded capacities or an increase in the number of boiler rooms. That particular option, while technically feasible, was not judged financially viable as a result of the potentially high developmental costs involved.

The analysis of the recent uses of a modern carrier group having shown, that the frequency of resupplying and the average duration of each operation are only slightly increased with conventional propulsion, while being rather determined by the resupplying of fuel for the aircraft, munitions and food.

"This choice ...offers the best perspectives for cooperation with the United Kingdom," Chirac said at the time. But BAE, under contract to build two aircraft carriers for the Royal Navy, told the UK Ministry of Defence that bringing the French into the project could cause long delays and would upset America.

The decision for conventional vs. nuclear propulsion was driven largely by the desire to achieve economies of scale; the U.K. is currently building 2 aircraft carriers, via a working partnership between the French firm Thales and British BAe. Sharing the costs of ship design, commonly procuring large equipment like the propulsion systems and holding common equipment trials brings down the per-ship cost substantially. After numerous comparative studies, it became apparent that the overall costs for the construction of a conventional vessel would be 10% less than for a nuclear vessel, due also to long-term lower maintenance and crew support costs. Finally, the conventional design was more adaptable over time to suit the needs of future aircraft and missions, with an outlook to 2050.

France and Britain have a long-standing desire to maintain their strong bilateral cooperation in the naval defense area, and the opportunity to collaborate on building an aircraft carrier certainly was politically attractive; Franco-British defense cooperation is considered a key element of European defense capability.

The UK’s requirement is for ships designed for the short or vertical take-offs of their F-35 JSFs, whereas the French plan on equipping their carrier with Rafales and future drones. However, at the time when the British Navy made its decision, it purposely chose a design that could easily be adapted to permit either vertical or catapulted take-offs. The French MoD also found many other areas of convergence in terms of requirements with the British design, not least of which is the delivery calendar.

Finally, France and the U.K are actively seeking areas in which to improve fleet interoperability, especially during EU or NATO exercises. France’s flagship firms Thales and DCN (Direction des Constructions Navales) will play a major role alongside BAe in the construction of the vessel, and claim to be able to deliver the ship for less than 2 billion euros.

Many decisions still needed to be made; the issue has been more determining overall operational requirements rather than precise size, level of self-protection, off-load capability onto escort frigates and level of systems capability. Notification of the main contract would be made by the end of 2006, with contracts for definition studies issued earlier, starting in 2004.

There had been talk of an international production program involving PA 2 and the British CVF or Queen Elizabeth class, however, there are believed to be too many differences in requirement. However, areas of industrial cooperation are emerging and a joint industrial report is being used to examine these.

While both sides have still to confirm the final propulsion arrangements they both agree that an electrical propulsion system based upon combined gas turbines and diesels and joint procurement of machinery seems extremely likely.

The second area of potential cooperation appears to be in aviation support systems. These could include equipment such as elevators and landing aids.

The third area appears to be in ship infrastructure such as fire fighting systems and hotel equipment, and here a considerable number of systems and equipment have been identified. It is even possible that joint accommodation modules could be produced.

In June 2004, DCN and Thales announced their decision to combine their strengths and set up an integrated Prime Contract Office to jointly lead the future French aircraft carrier programme. A jointly owned company will assume the role of prime contractor on this programme. This company will have a four-member board of directors, with equal representation by DCN and Thales, chaired by a DCN nominee. This company, which is currently being set up, will lead the PA2 program from conception to completion and support implementation of cooperation with the United Kingdom’s future aircraft carrier programme. The new joint company will be 65% owned by DCN and 35% owned by Thales Naval France.

On 25 January 2005 the French defence minister, Michèle Alliot-Marie, announced the launch of the design phase for France’s second aircraft carrier (PA2). This important step marks the end of the preparatory study phase, in which DCN and Thales have been closely involved. The studies, which began in June 2004 and were completed in the summer of 2005, include risk reduction studies and an evaluation of opportunities for cooperation between the British and French aircraft carrier programmes. Once these studies have been completed, the final design definition phase will begin.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/images/dpa-pic1.jpg

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/images/dpa-pic2.jpg

[ASIMOV]

Mic of Orion, Milgem is a Turkish designed ship and Turkey won't buy them.

The first Milgem class ship TCG Heybeliada is already under construction at Pendik Naval Shipyards in Istanbul since 26 July 2005.

http://www.alestadenizcilik.com/html/fusion_images/news/turksavasgemisi.jpg

http://www.dzkk.tsk.mil.tr/turkce/Modernizasyon/MILGEM.GIF

Initially 12 of them shall be built as part of the first batch.

Completion and first trials are scheduled for August 2007, entry to service in October 2010.

[Falcon83]

http://www.jsf.mil/downloads/wallpapers/parisair_1024x768.jpg

http://www.jsf.mil/images/headers/head_leadership.jpg

I hope JSF will be ready soon!!!....It will be better than the Rafale;)

[mic of Orion]

^Asimov I thought you are banned, and no you are wrong they are US designed by Locked Martin and General Dynamic, Turkey only builds them from there plans
(Lochkeed Martin Assistance) and some of the subsystems, naval gun and other stuff Turkey needs to import as well as 16 cell VLS system which is General Dynamics product as well as RAM and sensor suite...


Hope you learned the lesson and won't spam and troll anymore, you are welcome to contribute with civil discussion and ideas , but if you spam again, I don't need to tell you do I...

Otherwise Live Long and prosper \V/

[ASIMOV]

American LCS

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/littoral/images/LCS_4.jpg

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/littoral/images/LCS_10.jpg

Turkish Milgem

http://www.dzkk.tsk.mil.tr/turkce/Modernizasyon/MILGEM.GIF

http://www.alestadenizcilik.com/html/fusion_images/news/turksavasgemisi.jpg

They look similar, but they are different. ;)

Otherwise, Turkey wouldn't own Milgem's licence.

At best Turkey would "licence build" them in Turkey with the permission of the U.S. Congress, which is not the case here.

Only the main weapons systems (Mk.41 VLS with ESSM and Asroc VLA, Harpoon SSM and RAM) will be purchased from the United States.

The ship itself, including the radars and sonars as well as the command and control systems, will be Turkish.

[ASIMOV]

Milgem class ships were originally going to be "purchased", with Meko A-100 of Blohm & Voss as the strongest contender.

The "purchase" project was later shelved and Turkey decided to make its own design (to avoid licence/permission/limited technology problems)

The same thing happened in the Tank 2000 project (Turkey was planning to purchase 1000 new MBTs, either Abrams M1A2 or Leopard 2A5, but the "purchase" project was later shelved and Turkey is currently developing its own Main Battle Tank (FNSS-Nurol-BMC consortium) with mass production starting in 2010)

[ASIMOV]

Since the Milgem platform is Turkish, Turkey will be able to add its own indigenous weapons (such as the "J" guided ballistic missile (SRBM), "Bora" CIWS, etc.) without having to get permission from the builder country, which is a major advantage.

The same advantage will also be used for the TF-2000 AAW frigates, which will also be a Turkish design rather than a foreign purchase as initially planned.

[GNU]

why would France or Britain need an aircraft-carrier anyway?

[Ning]

to get a bigger debt

[pricemazda]

because we are the only two countries that seems to be prepared to contribute towards our own defence.

[nick_taylor]

because we are the only two countries that seems to be prepared to contribute towards our own defence.That and a launch pad for offensive, peacekeeping and rescue missions.

Reality is, if the EU wants something done and it requires military action elsewhere around the world it would most likely fall on the requirements of the Royal Navy and Marine Nationale to carry out this operation. The future EU Armed Forces will consist mainly by those of the UK and France, as these are the two dominant military powers of the EU.

France and the UK also have foreign territories/departments located around the world.

[Matthieu]

A retrospective, the biggest cuirassés (sorry you have no words in English for the biggest battleships, as much as we have none for destroyers):

The Richelieu was a French battleship of World War II named for the seventeenth century statesman Cardinal Richelieu.

Derived from the Dunkerque class, Richelieu and Jean Bart (plus unfinished Clémenceau) were designed to counter the threat of the Italian Navy. Their speed, shielding, armament and overall technology were state of the art. The turret arrangement for the main battery of eight 380 mm guns was somewhat unusual, with two 4-gun turrets located forward, enabling all the main armament to fire at the bow.

The keel was laid in October 1935 in Brest. Richelieu was launched in January 1939 and the first sea trials were done in the spring of 1940.

After the French defeat in June of 1940 she hastily left Brest to escape the advancing German forces and went to Dakar in the summer of 1940. There she was attacked by Swordfish torpedo planes from the British carrier Hermes on July 8, 1940 and as a result of a torpedo hit her starboard propulsion shaft was disabled. At the time, the British were anxious not to let the French navy, under orders from Vichy France, to turn to the Axis Powers. She fought against the British and Free France naval forces in Dakar, where she was immobilised for repairs from the air attack. Gunnery duel occurred between Richelieu and British battleships HMS Barham and HMS Resolution, who had to retire. Richelieu was further damaged in the battle when a defective 380mm shell put her n°2 main gun out of order.

When French Africa went to the Allies, Richelieu sailed to New York for refitting. Notable modifications were done to the anti-air armament. A special factory had to be assembled to provide ammunition of the appropriate calliber for Richelieu 's main artillery. Afterward, Richelieu fought in the Pacific War on the Allies side. She eventually was present in the Bay of Tokyo during the signing of the Japanese Instrument of Surrender.

After the War, Richelieu served in the Indochina War, and in the Suez Crisis. She was de-commissioned in 1967 and scrapped in 1968.

The Richelieu type, with their 380mm main artillery, was the most powerful battleship class ever built in France.

http://www.netmarine.net/bat/croiseur/jeanbart/photo14.jpg

http://www.netmarine.net/bat/croiseur/jeanbart/photo07.jpg

http://www.netmarine.net/bat/croiseur/jeanbart/photo03.jpg

[Matthieu]

This thread will soon reach the 500 posts limit BTW. I'll leave someone else the pleasure to finish it though.

[Falcon83]

FINISHED :nocrook: :nocrook: