Can oil do for Calgary or Edmonton (in next 30 years?) what it did for Dubai? What do you think?

NO!!

definetely no......and btw, once oil prices plummet in 50 or more years, Calgary and Edmonton will become ghost towns.

In terms of money and economy, perhaps.
I just don't like the stigma (^ @ Travis) you've introduced by comparing us with Dubai. :)

Also, mr. x, we will certainly not become ghost towns, there's more to our economy than just oil. I'm sure you're aware that Edmonton is the 2nd most diversified economy in Canada behind Montreal.

definetely no......and btw, once oil prices plummet in 50 or more years, Calgary and Edmonton will become ghost towns.
Calgary, and Edmonton have alot more than Oil industry, the lowest taxes in Canada, and a heritage fund that the Alberta Government will be able to live on many years after we go to a hydrogen economy.

And what does Vancouver have? Rain? thats about it.

In terms of money and economy, perhaps.
I just don't like the stigma (^ @ Travis) you've introduced by comparing us with Dubai. :)

.

Huh? I never compared Calgary or Edmonton to Dubai, all i said was a simple "no", to be honest I was just too lazy to post a reason. But i do feel that both Calgary and Edmonton are good cities that have potential and even if the oil industry fails, they'll both still continue to prosper. Isn't Calgary becoming a great office hub, and Edmonton becoming a high technology centre?

I just think that both of them will not become the next Dubai like the question asked me. :)


BTW: I didn't start the thread.

^ Lol, I know you didn't start it, but the way you said "NO!!" made it seem like you were invoking the ever-popular opinion of Dubai. :)
Good on ya for explaining yourself.

I started the thread, I didnt mean that Calgary or Edmonton would become tacky like Dubai, and i certainly did not intend to propose that the only thing that runs Alberta's economy is oil. I actually meant more along the lines of the skyline. Do you think the skylines will grow rapidly like Dubai? Im sorry I should have been more specific.

More skyline is always nice, and if this Calgary EnCana rumour turns out to be true, then the answer is yes!
Although, Edmonton would need to be blessed with a well placed tornado *cough*MUNI*cough* for it to be as impressive as Dubai. ;)

I'm sorry i have not heard the EnCana rumor...can you enlighten me?

Here you go:
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?threadid=78090&perpage=25&pagenumber=1

Also, mr. x, we will certainly not become ghost towns, there's more to our economy than just oil. I'm sure you're aware that Edmonton is the 2nd most diversified economy in Canada behind Montreal.


Calgary, and Edmonton have alot more than Oil industry, the lowest taxes in Canada, and a heritage fund that the Alberta Government will be able to live on many years after we go to a hydrogen economy.

And what does Vancouver have? Rain? thats about it.


And how much moolah does the oil industries produce for the governments (prov. & municipal)? Tens and tens of billions. Take it away, Alberta is heading for a collapse. Oil is what drove business to Alberta (and with the help of BC's NDP government in the 1990s). The oil industry is what's producing the massive government surpluses, and the record high oil prices help that. Oil is the foundation of Alberta's economy. Take it away, what do you have? Red neck ghost towns in the middle of nowhere. Enjoy your oil while it lasts. :cheers:

I started the thread, I didnt mean that Calgary or Edmonton would become tacky like Dubai, and i certainly did not intend to propose that the only thing that runs Alberta's economy is oil. I actually meant more along the lines of the skyline. Do you think the skylines will grow rapidly like Dubai? Im sorry I should have been more specific.

The skyline will grow rapidly but I doubt it will be far from what's happening in Dubai.

I heard there was a 2500 foot office/hotel/condo/retail tower proposed for Edmonton the other day... ;)






























































*GAG*

Well the EnCana rumor sounds alittle shakey...but if its true, WOW can you imagine!!! As for Mr X i agree it will not be the same amount as what is happening in Dubai. I really dont think that Dubai can support all that construction. There just a small country trying to get on the map. However that said I would not be upset if Calgary was able to something similar. Just less tacky!!!

Of course it will. The big advantage that Alberta has is that their resources are virtually untapped, whereas the UAE is undergoing a much greater extraction process as the economy is not ready for a mass production of oil sands, yet. The Tar Sands consists of over 1.6 trillion barrels of oil. The highest estimate of recoverable barrels is at about 315 billion, which is well ahead of Saudi Arabia. Alberta, and Canada altogether, faces a bright next 50 years.

Just wait until raw crude prices soar, enabling the companies to produce even more oil from the tar sands without loss. Just wait, you'll see.

Hey thats what Im hopeing lol. Lets just hope were not attack by the americans for our oil lol.

It's nice to know that mr. x enjoys pissing his credibility away by making stereotypical red neck comments.
Vancouver's skyline is more like Dubai's than Edmonton or Calgary's will ever be. (in tackiness)

definetely no......and btw, once oil prices plummet in 50 or more years, Calgary and Edmonton will become ghost towns.
Yeah, and the largest stock of cattle in the country will just say, "Moo" as the people all run away.

To say that these cities will become ghost towns is to be ignorant. These are great cities, just as Vancouver is, but please be resonable.

"red neck" is in retaliation for "And what does Vancouver have? Rain? thats about it."


I think all of you are over-reacting on "ghost towns." It's my way of saying that Calgary and Edmonton will lose a lot of jobs and businesses as result of oil prices dropping.....i do not mean ghost towns literally.

Which city will be more harmed if oil was no longer needed? Edmonton or Calgary.

^ Calgary.

unless we humans somehow manage to harness "free energy", oil is the only alternative for our energy hungry species. today's western society is extremely dependent on oil and most people don't really realise how much oil alberta has. as long as we keep on truckin towards the eventual global peak in convential production, the oil sands in alberta will look very, very appealing.

here, everyone should read this. win-win for alberta and canada.

http://www.macleans.ca/topstories/business/article.jsp?content=20050613_107308_107308

Sharing the wealth will definitely be the big question surrounding national unity in the near future. It could possibly be enough to split this country apart to its core.

For some reason people think that "oil companies" will just roll over and die once oil reserves are sufficiently depleted. What most people don't seem to appreciate is that these are essentially "energy" companies, and will adapt to exploit or develop the predominant form of energy required from people. These companies have Billions and Billions of dollars of available capital to pour into research and development of new forms of energy. Many energy companies already recognize this. Does anyone honestly think that Shell, or EnCana, or Imperial or PB are just going to dissappear.

Calgary and Edmonton will be fine long beyond our lifetimes.

As per the question - no, neither city will see Dubai-like development. Sure there will be a lot of development, but not 2500 ft scrapers.

The EnCana rumour: I am still waiting for more confirmation on this - I will keep you all informed.

1 - I hope neither look like Dubai (seriously - their skyline looks like they are trying to hard vs. the natural evolution of a city)

2 - I hope they build that 80s office building - would be the tallest in Canada even after trump - this would hopefuly spur an ego in Toronto to build one taller!!!

I think we're all getting ahead of ourselves with asking "Will Calgary or Edmonton be the Next Dubai?".

First of all, there's a huge difference between Alberta and the UAE, the UAE is a small country in the Middle East that 7% of their GDP comes from oil and I beleive they have more oil than Alberta (correct me if I'm wrong).
Next, the person behind all these towers going up in Dubai is the Sheik, he's king of like their king, he's a rich billionaire or God knows much money he has. He is willing to spend more money on building these towers and palm islands than the Alberta Provincial Government and Feds will ever. And towers get approved in Dubai super fast, many of them U/C before getting approved. So I guess we can forget about the skyline part of the comparison. ;)
Also, another thing is that the Sheik is trying to turn Dubai and the UAE into a top tourism and vacation spot with all these new hotels, palm islands, towers, and theme parks (Just take a look at some of their development threads).

But that doesn't mean Calgary and Edmonton from prospering. :)

And BTW: the 2500 footer remark was a joke. ;)

I think we're all getting ahead of ourselves with asking "Will Calgary or Edmonton be the Next Dubai?".

First of all, there's a huge difference between Alberta and the UAE, the UAE is a small country in the Middle East that 7% of their GDP comes from oil and I beleive they have more oil than Alberta (correct me if I'm wrong).


With existing technology, Alberta can extract about 179 billion barrels of crude from the oil sands - that represents the second largest oil field on earth. Most estimates believe with improved extraction technology, over 300 billion barrels can be profitably extracted from the oil sands - representing the LARGEST oil reserve on the planet ahead of Saudi Arabia's 265 billion barrel reserve.

The real Alberta oil Bonanza is just getting started.

The way the oil sands royalty scheme works, the Alberta government only starts collecting its 25% cut once the initial capital investment is paid off. Depending on the project this could be 5-10 years of production. All sorts of projects are coming on line now. This royalty holiday is meant to spur investment in an extremely capital heavy industry. Estimates say that there will be upwards of 87$ billion in capital investments in oil sands over the next decade. The 3-4 billion dollar surpluses of today are going to look like pocket change in 5-10 years in this province.

wow who gives a damn about all this oil shit! im all worked up about this EnCana rumour, i hope this is true!! If its an office building it will no doubt be THE TALLEST in the country (if it uses the same single floor height as say....the FCP). And it would no doubt rouse some dudes ego in Toronto spurring on Toronto to build some ginormous 1400 foot tower!!hehe

Calgary and Edmonton are way more than just oil. They are diversifying and develpoing a large high-tech community.
BC is also a fine one to talk, its strenght is still, byfar, lumber.
Calgary could handle the space just look at the twin 51 story Banker's Hall buildings. I imagine it wouldn't have as much space as FirstCdnPlace either as it will probably be slimer.
But hold the presses. I though one of the reason's PetroCan has two buildings and so does Banker's Hall is because of that stupid height restiction for the CalgaryTower?

lets face it, they will never get rid of this stereotype, not matter how outdated it is.

Why is there a height restriction? That would really suck if it dosnt get built becasue of something dumb lie that

Calgary is a great city that was built naturally overtime as all cities should be. It went through booms and very bad times. The city is defined just as much by it's struggles as it's fortunes. Calgary is a city that screams an independant streak.

Dubai is a rich-man's little expirement with 1000ft lego blocks.

Don't compare the two. No, Calgary will never be like Dubai, and you know what, thank goodness.

Can oil do for Calgary or Edmonton (in next 30 years?) what it did for Dubai? What do you think?

No because edmonton and calgary are not a tourist mecca and can not become a financial center like dubai because of toronto.

Oil really doesn't drive Dubai's economy

No because edmonton and calgary are not a tourist mecca and can not become a financial center like dubai because of toronto.

? - With Banff under an hour away, Calgary will become quite a big tourist centre in the foreseeable future.

As for financial centre.. I guess they'll just have to vent all their anger at Toronto ;)

"Alberta is about to get wildly rich and powerful:What does that mean for Canada?"

STEVE MAICH
MACLEANS MAGAZINE

At Suncor Energy's Millennium oil sands project, just north of Fort McMurray, Alta., the unmistakable odour of black gold drifts up from the ground and hangs thick in the air. Everywhere around you, water pooled in footprints, tire ruts and potholes carries the telltale rainbow sheen of oil. "The smell of economic progress," jokes Brad Bellows, a spokesman for Suncor, playing host on a damp spring afternoon. But it's much more than that. It's the smell of raw power -- the kind that comes from having plenty of what the rest of the world can't live without. It's the smell of a resource locked in the ground for millions of years and which now has the potential to shape the future of a nation, for better or for worse.

Suncor's extraction plant on the bank of the Athabasca River looks like a science fiction movie set -- hundreds of kilometres of steel pipe twisted into incomprehensible knots around hulking industrial buildings, storage tanks and smokestacks. The whole scene is bathed in a constant haze of steam and exhaust. Two other such plants are now operating within an hour's drive of here, and several more are scheduled to commence operations over the next few years, all to exploit what may be the biggest petroleum deposit anywhere in the world, a sea of oil-saturated soil covering an area the size of New Brunswick.




Already, one million barrels of petroleum a day are being spun out of the sand and pumped south, and that number is projected to triple within the next decade. During that time, the oil sands will generate about 100,000 new jobs and billions of dollars in royalties and taxes to various levels of government, not to mention billions more in dividends to investors. But the significance of the oil sands beyond Canada's borders may be even greater.

Energy has become a central obsession of international politics in recent years, as exploding economic growth in Asia and America's ongoing love affair with gas-guzzling vehicles have accelerated the drain on world petroleum reserves. Terrorism, trade, the war in Iraq, nuclear diplomacy -- all of it, on some level, is related to the international preoccupation with energy, and access to affordable oil. So if Canada is to play a more significant global role in the years ahead, experts agree it will be due to the reeking, doughy black soil in northern Alberta, and the rest of the world's keen desire to share it. "The oil sands give Canada one of the single greatest advantages of any state in the Western world," says Paul Chastko, a University of Calgary historian who recently published a book called Developing Alberta's Oil Sands. "It gives Canada the ability to supply all of North America for the next 50 years without touching a drop of imported oil." It is, in short, an economic engine and political lever that any nation would desperately love to have.

But rich inheritances can be mixed blessings -- that opportunity comes with a host of potentially poisonous and divisive questions about how best to manage the windfall. Amid Canada's tangle of regional rivalries, three dominant political cultures have emerged -- western conservatives, eastern liberals and Quebec nationalists -- each with its own starkly different priorities and visions for the country. While attention has traditionally focused on feelings of alienation in Quebec, the sense of historical grievance and isolation is just as deep in Alberta, where most believe Ottawa has long pandered to the economic interests of eastern elites at the expense of the West. Even the cultural symbols seem irreconcilable: it's the clash between cowboy oilmen and their libertarian leaders, versus buttoned-down eastern bankers and their old-money political allies.

Now Alberta is poised to reap the biggest bonanza in its history, an economic jackpot giant enough to fundamentally shift the balance of wealth and power westward. The province can control its own destiny more than any other because, in the years to come, Canada will need Alberta far more than Alberta will need the rest of Canada. What remains to be seen is whether the gift of the oil sands will secure the country's prosperity for generations to come, or be the force that finally pushes the straining seams of federalism to their breaking point.

The locals have taken to calling this northern outpost "Fort McMoney" and it's not hard to see why. The signs of sudden, conspicuous growth are everywhere -- from the overflowing sewage treatment plant to the huge morning queues at the two Tim Hortons franchises. Housing development and local infrastructure have not kept up with the surging population, so renting a single bedroom in a shared mobile home will set you back about $700 a month.

And this, clearly, is just the beginning. The region's population is projected to grow by about 43 per cent in the next five years, all because of the oil sands. The National Energy Board estimates there are approximately 1.6 trillion barrels of crude bitumen saturating the ground in northern Alberta. Bitumen -- a form of heavy, thick oil laden with sulphur and deficient in hydrogen -- can be refined into synthetic crude oil to make everything from gasoline to plastics. It is the lifeblood of every industrialized economy. According to the Alberta Energy and Utilities Board, about 178 billion barrels of bitumen are economically recoverable using existing technology -- enough to produce more than 150 billion barrels of crude.

If these estimates are accurate, Canada's oil reserves rank second behind only Saudi Arabia's 260 billion barrels. And there are many who believe the current oil sands assessments understate the true potential here. The AEUB has projected that rising prices and improved technology could ultimately push the oil sands yield close to 300 billion barrels, which would make it the richest petroleum field in the world. By 2015, the oil sands are expected to be producing roughly three million barrels of petroleum a day. Assuming prices will average US$40 a barrel (well below where they are today), that suggests annual revenues of close to US$43 billion.

Last year alone, Alberta collected almost $900 million in oil sands royalties, and the Athabasca Regional Issues Working Group, an industry association, estimates that provincial revenues will hit $3 billion a year by 2011. Add federal and other taxes not directly related to oil sands production and you're looking at billions more. The same industry group recently estimated that between 1997 and 2025, total new revenues to various levels of government from the oil sands should be close to $200 billion.

It's all being driven by a slew of expansions and start-ups scheduled to commence over the next several years, sending an estimated $60 billion in construction and development costs sloshing through the Canadian economy. The Petroleum Human Resources Council of Canada recently estimated that the number of people directly employed in oil sands operations -- currently about 50,000 -- will reach 80,000 by 2008. An additional 70,000 construction, manufacturing and service jobs will also be created -- 40 per cent of them outside Alberta.

Even now, most Canadians still don't fully grasp the significance of the industry, says Rick George, the president and chief executive of Suncor. "There's going to be $6 or $7 billion in new capital put into this business this year," he says. "What other industry is putting that level of capital into the country? There's no comparison that I'm aware of. And you will see that each and every year for the next 10 years, if not the next 20. Obviously that's a huge benefit to the country."

Especially in Alberta. According to a 2003 study by TD Bank Financial Group, the Calgary-Edmonton corridor is already the fastest growing economic region in the country, boasting per-capita gross domestic product that's 40 per cent above the Canadian average. And the Canada West Foundation recently projected that Alberta's economic growth will lead the country this year and next, due in large part to the booming energy sector. For a province that already boasts zero provincial debt, comparatively low taxes and a budget surplus, the future is bright, and promises to provide even better services, lower taxes and an influx of migration to the new western tiger. And in Canada, that could pose a problem.

In August 2001, Jean Chrétien foreshadowed the coming tension over Alberta's blossoming oil wealth during a speech in Edmonton. "We have to make sure that every person in every part of Canada benefits from the potential and the wealth that belongs to the people of Canada," he said. With those words, Chrétien jabbed a stick into the hornet's nest of western alienation. The reaction in the oil patch was swift and indignant. For many Albertans, it was just another sign that Ottawa was intent on stealing their birthright.

It was also a familiar story. In 1980, Pierre Trudeau's government imposed the National Energy Program, which slapped hefty export taxes on oil shipments and capped foreign investment in Canadian oil companies, in part to ensure that eastern Canada's manufacturing base had continued access to cheap oil. The program was deeply resented in Alberta, and was eventually scrapped by the Mulroney Conservatives. But the bitter aftertaste of the NEP remains.

Barry Cooper wasn't surprised at Chrétien's audacity. A University of Calgary political science professor and staunch critic of the federal Liberals, Cooper fully expects that, as the oil sands continue to develop, they will become a flashpoint in federal-provincial relations. Alberta already pays far more in equalization transfers to other provinces than it receives in federal program spending. And as the gap grows between rich Alberta and the poorer parts of the country, the demands to spread the wealth are sure to follow -- especially if prices for gasoline and heating oil skyrocket, as many predict. It's guaranteed to fan the flames of western discontent, Cooper says. "It's Alberta's oil if you live in Alberta and it's Canada's oil if you live in Ottawa," he says. "Energy has become the basic fault line of federalism."

Small tremors have already been felt, in the disputes over Hydro-Québec's plans to explore for oil and gas in the Gulf of St. Lawrence, and the fight by Nova Scotia and Newfoundland over offshore energy royalties and equalization payments. But the biggest showdown is yet to come, Cooper says. It will centre on two conflicting agendas: Alberta's desire to reap maximum benefit from oil sands development, and Ottawa's determination to slash greenhouse gas emissions under the Kyoto Protocol.

So far, the oil industry and federal government are making soothing noises about the impact of Kyoto on development. After initial threats that some oil companies would shelve projects if Canada signed on to Kyoto, industry players are now saying they can cope with the costs without destroying their businesses. But many questions remain about how Ottawa will roll emissions back to pre-1990 levels and who will pay for it.

Although producers like Suncor are reducing emissions on a per-barrel basis with better technology, and are researching ways to cut the amount of gas and water used in the extraction process, the total environmental impact of oil sands development is sure to increase substantially over the next decade. That has many convinced Ottawa is on a collision course with industry. "If government decides to clamp down hard on CO2 emitters to meet the Kyoto commitments, or if they use Kyoto and the treaty-making power to confiscate income that belongs to the province, the anger generated by the National Energy Program would pale in comparison," says Cooper.

Paul Chastko agrees, and says the environment is just one of many potential conflicts. What will happen if we're heading for a worldwide oil shortage that will send prices shooting higher? Will the rest of the country, particularly manufacturing-reliant commuter cities like Toronto and Montreal, be content to let Alberta profit while their industries are crushed by higher fuel prices, or will there be renewed calls for government intervention, as there were in the 1970s?

These questions may have a pivotal impact in determining Canada's place in an increasingly energy-obsessed world, he says. Because when it comes to this country's relationship with the United States and other economic powers, Alberta holds the trump card, but Ottawa gets to decide how it's played.

Frederick Cedoz is used to getting skeptical laughs around Washington when he refers to Canada as a superpower. This country's image as a mostly boring fringe player in world politics remains deeply entrenched in the U.S. capital. But Cedoz, vice-president of operations with the Global Water and Energy Strategy Team, is trying to change that. He describes a new world in which power flows more from the end of a gas nozzle than the barrel of a gun, a world in which Canada must be considered among the most critical brokers of petroleum power.

To be sure, many skeptics remain, in part because oil sands present a much greater technological challenge than conventional oil fields. In operations like Suncor's Millennium project, raw oil sand must be dug up using massive power shovels, or liquefied using steam so bitumen can be pumped to the surface. Either way, the process is arduous, expensive and consumes vast amounts of natural gas and water. Moreover, oil sands operations have been plagued with cost overruns and mechanical breakdowns.

"What's going to happen to the oil price? Will they have access to enough natural gas? Enough labour? Enough water? Can they contain the pollution? Now that Canada has signed the Kyoto Protocol, you've got to watch those things," says Robert Ebel, chairman of the energy program at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington, running through a rapid-fire list of the issues routinely cited by the skeptics.

But Cedoz and others say these concerns are insignificant when stacked against the looming prospect of a world oil shortage. Since taking office in 2001, U.S. President George W. Bush has spoken repeatedly about the need to ensure America's "energy security." In his National Energy Policy, outlined four years ago, Bush specifically mentioned Alberta's oil sands as a key building block in his plan to ensure American refineries never run dry. Canada may have opted out of the war in Iraq, but in the campaign to fuel the North American economy, this country is still Washington's most prized ally.

In 2003, the U.S. consumed approximately 20 million barrels of petroleum per day, and about 12 million barrels of that was imported. Canada shipped a little over two million barrels a day to its southern neighbour, according to U.S. government estimates, making this country the U.S.'s biggest single energy supplier by far. By 2015, it is projected that Americans will be consuming more than 24 million barrels a day, and if they are going to meet that demand, rising production from the oil sands will be essential.

In early April, oil prices spiked to almost US$60 a barrel on concerns that global demand is growing faster than the industry can produce new supplies. Analysts at Goldman Sachs, a prominent Wall Street investment bank, speculated that the world market may be in the early stages of a "super spike" that could send prices rocketing above US$100 a barrel. All this has only heightened Washington's fear of another oil crisis, reminiscent of the gas shortages that followed the Arab oil embargo of the 1970s. Nothing can suck the wind out of America's economic sails faster than spiralling energy costs, and the Bush administration, far from pushing conservation, is determined to satisfy the nation's thirst for affordable fuel.

"The whole issue of oil is increasingly being seen through the lens of national security," explains Michael Klare, a professor of peace and world security studies at Hampshire College in Amherst, Mass., and the author of Resource Wars: The New Landscape of Global Conflict. "The fact that Canada is nearby, an ally, and its oil doesn't have to be shipped by sea on ships that could be blocked or attacked by terrorists, all makes it more appealing. So there will be a premium placed on imports from Canada."

Energy security is not just an American fixation, however. China is in the early stages of an industrial revolution which will vastly increase that country's energy demands over the next decade. And recently Chinese officials have been eyeing the oil sands as a source of precious fuel. In April, a Chinese firm bought a minority stake in MEG Energy Corp., a tiny oil sands developer, and a few days later PetroChina signed a deal with Enbridge Inc. to build a new $2.5-billion oil pipeline between Edmonton and Canada's west coast, to ship up to 200,000 barrels a day to China. And last week, another Chinese energy company, Sinopec Group, bought a 40-per-cent stake in Synenco Energy Inc.'s Northern Lights Project for $105 million, and committed to invest an additional $2 billion to help build the project, aiming for completion by the end of 2010.

This, says Klare, is sure to raise anxieties in Washington. "You're going to see a collision between increased demand around the world and constrained supplies, and that is inevitably going to lead to greater conflict, especially as the U.S. and China come into competition over access to supplies," he says. "I think there's going to be growing emphasis in the U.S. on ensuring those oil sands resources come south and don't go anywhere else. That's going to be a greater emphasis in the relationship between Canada and the U.S."

With two economic superpowers knocking on the door, Canada should wield greater heft in everything from diplomatic efforts to trade negotiations, says Shawn Smallman, director of the International Studies Program at Portland State University. "Even though Canada is our largest trading partner, it's no secret the country hasn't really been on the political radar screen in Washington," he says. "But I think that's changing now because of the growing importance of Canadian oil. Energy is just so central to all discussion of foreign policy in the U.S. right now. It's going to make Canada a much higher priority in the U.S."

But deciding how best to use that power could prove to be yet another thorny question in Canada. Back in 2001, Jean Chrétien hinted the government might link the softwood dispute to Canadian energy exports, arguing that if the U.S. wanted energy, it would have to accept other exports as well. "If they were not to have oil and gas from Canada, they will need a lot of wood to heat their homes," he joked. Again, Chrétien's bluntness exposed a raw nerve in federal-provincial relations. Oilmen don't like the sound of anything that might complicate the lucrative flow of petroleum across the border, and these days Suncor's Rick George will say only that he doesn't think the oil sands should be used as a bargaining chip.

And there you have the tension that simmers between Calgary and Ottawa. Two capitals: one economic, the other political. Both eager to exploit the oil sands for their own incompatible, often contradictory agendas.

At Suncor, the hulking machines of Canada's oil future continue their methodical task. An electric power shovel with a scoop the size of a two-car garage rips a 100-ton chunk of oil-saturated sand away from a black cliff face. The machine stands three storeys tall, and yet is eerily quiet as it goes about its work, merely humming along as it dumps its cargo into the bed of a Caterpillar 797 -- the world's largest truck, with 12-foot wheels capable of hauling a load of up to 400 tons. The truck rumbles away, loaded down with enough sand to produce about 200 barrels of oil -- about US$10,000 worth at current prices. The work continues, around the clock, 365 days a year. "How can you not be optimistic with these commodity prices?" George says. "And look, prices aren't going to stay this high. There will be volatility. But even with oil in the mid-US$30s, this industry and Suncor will perform very well."

But Chastko, who can tell you as much about the oil sands as anyone, knows that keeping politics out of the way won't be easy. "The oil sands have tremendous potential, but it also has the whiff of political dynamite about it," he says. "The born-and-bred Albertan in me says I should be shouting from the highest rooftop about how the oil sands are going to pave the way for our future. The historian in me recognizes that rarely are things ever so simple."

I read that article. I normally don't read magazines but when I picked up the mail I noticed my dad's subscription of Macleans came in for the month and immediately noticed the title. The magazine didn't leave my hands until I was finished! :)

"Peak Oil"

http://www.peakoil.net/

Why is there a height restriction? That would really suck if it dosnt get built becasue of something dumb lie that

There is no height restriction in Calgary. Its Edmonton that has the height restriction.

Why is there a height restriction? That would really suck if it dosnt get built becasue of something dumb lie that

there is no height restriction...........

Lets just hope that Alberta doesn't suffer the same fate as Manchester or Detroit (both huge, successful, future way of doing business, etc. in their haydays). If Alberta can take their profits and invest them heavily in becoming economically diverse, then it will do quite well.

It appears about 40% of Alberta's economy is tied to the energy sector (23% directly, and 17% indirectly through real-estate, transportation, construction, etc.

A strong Alberta makes for a strong Canada, so hopefully they make a great a great run at it.

Oh, and no Alberta city will ever be like Dubai. Canadians are too conservative (smart?) to invest billions of dollars into winning world records and wowing tourists without regard to potential project losses.

Does anyone think that maybe Calgary could have the #2 or even the #1 skyline in Canada?

Some day for sure..........#2. It will never oivertake Toronto but could easily over take Montreal. Itt is already #3 as Vancouver is way back due to being short and flat.

You know, I still find it funny that despite the big boom in Alberta the place isn't growing very fast........just 1.3%/annum.

^i thought alberta's growth rate for 2005 was 3.9%

well, according to this anyways....http://biz.yahoo.com/cnw/050509/bmo_econ_growth_rates.html?.v=1


and as a guy from etown, this hurts, but calgary, imo, has the number two skyline in canada.

http://www.viewcalgary.com/panorama/maxImages/skylineNNW.jpg

http://www.viewcalgary.com/panorama/images/skylineTomC.jpg

pretty inpressive and the rockies off in the distance are nice.

Dubai's skyline is ego driven. Calgary may build an eighty storey tower but only because it is a response to economic necessity. Otherwise, no, that won't happen in the foreseeable future (the Dubai comparison I mean) Oil is still the main driving force in Alberta's prosperity but even when it runs out there will be plenty of opportunity in Alberta as the two main cities have gone to great lengths to ensure (moreso Edmonton than Calgary)

Calgary and Edmonton are cities with a past and have grown as real cities, Dubai is a theme park.

BTW Calgary has moved up its CTRain expansion plans. I thought they had but couldn't find the link..........well, here it is......
www.members.shaw.ca/calgary_transit

Calgary has an 80 storey office tower in the works? NICE! :D :okay: I thought Penny Lane was the tallest approved tower right now?

And every city has height limits, I don't know about Calgary's. I just don't it's economocally viable for Calgary or Edmonton to do what Dubai is doing, there's nothing wrong with that. I think that Calgary will become Canada's Houston. :)

Right now the 80-Storey Building contract is just a rumor, but a reasonable one. It would be awesome for the city, and would solidify our skyline as #2.

Calgary has (I think) 2 height limits:

1. Nothing must be taller than the Calgary Tower (we broke that rule a few times already :P)
2. Buildings can't overshadow the banks of the Bow River (I don't think this one has been broken yet)

Well they are planning to build 2 towers to 'book stand' the Calgary tower with each tower being I beleive 25-30 stories high. So I think no one really cares for the Calgary Tower. plus if Encana does build there 80 story building it wont really block the view from the Calgary tower cause there is nothing really to the north.

Right now the 80-Story Building contract is just a rumor, but a reasonable one. It would be awesome for the city, and would solidify our skyline as #2.
)

Just remember the shrinking effect that a 320 odd meter building will have on a skyline. Toronto looks like it only has 7-8 tall buildings because of it.

True enough, but it's not like we are sticking a CN tower into our skyline. The building would be significantly taller than, say, PetroCan, but there should be enough tall skyscrapers around it that it doesn't look out of place. I just don't think the building would have as bad a shrinking effect.

Plus, if you think about it, there should be enough smaller residential towers in surrounding areas like the Beltline that would give an onlooker a sense of scale.

^ YOu could be right. My point is that there are hundreds of 30s buildings around downtown Toronto, but you only see 7-8, every thing around it looks like 10s even though they are 3x the height.

But your right in that it is magnified more due to the CN Tower in TO. Though for calgary the next tallest building next to the 80s will probably be 100M shorter, and twice the height of the 10th tallest.

if this 80 story tower uses the same floor height as the FCP in toronto it will be about 331.2m high!!! that is over 116m taller then petrocan and would certainly make the rest of the skyline look abit smaller...im guessing if they did build it that they wouldnt go any higher then 300m. although i would love to see it at 331m because it would be canada's TRUE tallest skyscraper and some dude in toronto with a big ego would build some huge 375m building hehehehehe!!<--------------thats the day I PARTAAAY!!!

I knew I wasn't going nuts. Thats what I thought, Calgary has a height limit being nothing taller than the CalgaryTower.
80 stories, ya make things look smaller but that happens everytime a really tall building goes up. I'm sure they said the same thing when the CalgaryTower went up.

80 stories.. mmmm.

sorry guys...as much as like calgary's skyline....van's is more diverse even with the glass monoliths....you have look closer.

Some day for sure..........#2. It will never oivertake Toronto but could easily over take Montreal. Itt is already #3 as Vancouver is way back due to being short and flat.

Only in your opinion.

Calgary or Edmonton next Dubai?
ahahahahaahaha.

Ok, I'm better now.

SCUMTOES..........
When I mentioned the slow growth I meant population. The 3.9% you refered to was economic growth.

At the doorsteps of Calgary...

In the heart of Kananaskis County ...

Lies Calgary's tourism potential.

http://img232.echo.cx/img232/8854/1729ng.jpg

http://img232.echo.cx/img232/7692/1267kr.jpg

http://img155.echo.cx/img155/7752/1829qf.jpg

http://img155.echo.cx/img155/6426/1837nw.jpg

http://img232.echo.cx/img232/9227/1737wl.jpg

http://img232.echo.cx/img232/5918/1762dz.jpg

http://img232.echo.cx/img232/9056/1770cq.jpg

http://img155.echo.cx/img155/9201/1795xl.jpg

http://img155.echo.cx/img155/2363/1807vd.jpg

http://img155.echo.cx/img155/8756/1818qr.jpg

http://img155.echo.cx/img155/6167/1843mk.jpg

http://img155.echo.cx/img155/6769/1865mn.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

http://img55.echo.cx/img55/6319/1870gu.jpg

http://img55.echo.cx/img55/7201/1933zb.jpg

http://img55.echo.cx/img55/899/1948gm.jpg

Oh, look it's Castle Mountain

http://img55.echo.cx/img55/1574/1955lu.jpg

We've officially entered Banff National Park. More photos to come. :)

^ lol, for a moment there until I got to the bottom, I thought you were suggesting more ski slopes. beautiful btw. :)

wow amazing thankyou, i could definetly see those mountain side lakes becoming major destinations. I am not to familiar with the area, how far away from Calgary is that?

wow amazing thankyou, i could definetly see those mountain side lakes becoming major destinations. I am not to familiar with the area, how far away from Calgary is that?

45 minutes to K-Country, 1 hour 15 minutes to Banff and about 1 hour 45 minutes to Lake Louise.

I am not to familiar with the area, how far away from Calgary is that?

To reach Kananaskis, it takes around 30 minutes to an hour, depending where you are in Calgary.

Does anyone think that maybe Calgary could have the #2 or even the #1 skyline in Canada?

with an 80 story tower and more towers (equaling a denser skyline) it could easily be #2, as for now i cant say though...id say its tied for 3rd with montreal behind vancouver. And no i highly doubt it would ever be able to match much less overtake the Toronto skyline to become number 1.

Wow I just realized (from looking at skyscraper rankings) that if this Encana rumor IS true, then Calgary could have one of the 20 tallest 'scrapers in the world.

Really? Wow imagine a city with just 1.1 million haveing a tower like that? I just hope its not to boxy. I wonder if this rumor is true if there will be a render soon.

Does anyone think that maybe Calgary could have the #2 or even the #1 skyline in Canada?

Definitely. Montreal isn't growing any in height, but has great diversity. Vancouver is going to have a few interesting structures go up in the next few years, so that's the primary competition.

Toronto is undergoing a bit of an East / West growth period at the moment for the money shot making it that view tough to beat, but it would be very extremely for Calgary to compete against the Yonge street skyline, simply because it's so frigging long (about 19km in length).

Really? Wow imagine a city with just 1.1 million haveing a tower like that? I just hope its not to boxy. I wonder if this rumor is true if there will be a render soon.

NOt only just a tower, but the whole skyline is impressive for such a population base. It definately is the best skyline per capita for a metro. I hope the city will in the future encourage high density living, and experience most population growth within downtown/city limits, as oppose to in the burbs.

There are alot of commercial towers downtown, but are there any substantial condos there now? Or is there any plans for some in the near future?

There are several under construction - and many proposed...condos are really booming here now.

^^^
Quite a few are starting to go up in Victoria Park and a couple on 4th street, the skyline is really starting to spread out.

I think that both Edmonton and Calgary have very impressive skylines. I, however don't think we are going to see the kind of outrageous delvelopments that we have seen in Dubai for two reasons:

1. Canadians are just not like that we don't need to build a group of islands shaped like a palm tree because our natural surroundings are already so impressive. There may be a lot of future development in C. and E. but I doubt that it is going to be too different from other major North American cities.

2. The amount of money that comes from oil is going to start drying up in about 25 years so if C. & E. want to remain ahead of other North American centres for development they will have to begin focusing other avenues of development and finance.

2. The amount of money that comes from oil is going to start drying up in about 25 years so if C. & E. want to remain ahead of other North American centres for development they will have to begin focusing other avenues of development and finance.


How is that? We have yet to tap into the billions of barrels of oil in the oil sands - those - the highest estimates are between 178billion barrels with existing mining technology - with slightly improved technology over 300 billion barrels woudl be economically viable to extract of the approximately 2 trillion barrels in Northern Alberta

Most analysts say that somewhere between 5 million and 7 million barrels per day can be extracted at peak levels. At 6 million per day - at that level it would last us 89 years. at 300 billion barrels - our supply would last 136 years. Even at 10 million barrels per day 300 billion barrels would last 83 years.

It costs about $18 dollars per barrel to produce the stuff down from about $21 only a few short years ago. With $55 oil right now - it is extremely profitable and as such the industry expects $87 billion in capital investment over the next 10 years.

I'd say we are safe.

"Since Hubbert's death in 1989, a slew of scientists (most of them former employees of Texaco, Chevron and other oil corporations) have applied Hubbert's methods to studying world petroleum output. These geologists examined global oil discovery--which peaked in the 1970s--and then calculated the future rate of extraction. Their prediction? We will hit global oil peak sometime between 2006 and 2015. From that point on, the inexorable laws of supply and demand will make petroleum ever more expensive until it's no longer economically feasible for society to rely on it. According to a 1999 report by the investment house Goldman Sachs, the oil companies are part of a "dying industry."" AlterNet, April 14, 2004

Read the books Out of Gas, The Party's over and The View from Hubberts Peak. All of these and also Shell Oil conclude at present oil use there will be NO MORE OIL as of 2050. That is not when problems start the problems start when you start finding less oil every year which will happen shortly after the dates quoted above so let us say 2020. To be on the conservative side. All of this doesn't even factor in China which is increasing its oil use by leaps and bounds every year.

The only way around this problem is to change to a new fuel source.

On a global basis yes, convential oil discoveries are sharply down. But that does not say that much about Calgary and Edmonton's situation. THe western industrialized world will likely be the first to phase in alternative energy sources over the next several decades - this will not suddenly happen overnight. Developing countries such as India and China wiht over 2.5 billion people will be behind in converting economies to other sources. Again, changing the basic energy source of the planet will happen - but over a long period of time. Canada will continue to put out the energy that it has even if other countries with convential reserves (saudi, EAE) run out. As oil declines, alternatives will rise to meet demand. As said -Alberta will be able to meet whatever demand there is as long as it has it.

Now, as for the companies that will invest in research and development of new energy sources. The most likely will be existing energy companies. They have the capital to do so. Shell, and Imperial, Chevron, BP will not simply dissapear - they will (and to some extent already are) invest in new sources of energy. Where are these companies in Canad headquatered? Calgary...

I've heard the same thing on business news, oil production is suppose to peak in the next decade (I mean 'projected to peak'). Hopefully new extraction techs allow for better yields from oil reserves, + alternative energies will allow for an unterruppted energy supply.

conventional oil will, no doubt, probably peak before 2015 sometime. non-conventional oil, like alberta's oilsands, have barely been touched yet. and there's a shitload of oil in them hills. i'd say alberta has a pretty bright future, cause heavy oil usage won't disappear in our life times.

Even if by some miracle most of the countries convert to an alternative energy source, think of all the other products that use oil. Plastics alone would be a huge demand.

BTW does nayone have any renders of these new condos?

Alberta will NEVER experience the bust it did in the early 80's. They would leave the country before having to put up with another NEP. They are a very highly educated and young workforce. Calgary has more hi-tech companies than does Vancouver which is twice its size.
This planet will need oil for atleast the next 50 years but more of it will be needed in India/China etc....
Alberta is in this for the long haul. Now all they need is some people to really become federally influential. Remember, the GTA has nearly twice as many people as Alberta.

Why is there a height restriction? That would really suck if it dosnt get built becasue of something dumb lie that
There is no height restriction in Calgary. Its Edmonton that has the height restriction.

I should add that Edmonton has a height restriction of about 150 m (492 feet) because of the City Centre Airport only a few kms to the north. The glideslopes of both runways go over directly (or close to, ayway) downtown.

BTW does nayone have any renders of these new condos?

A sampling:

First Vic Place
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v311/joshwhit/acdd.bmp

Gateway Midtown
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v311/joshwhit/Midtown_Rendering.jpg

Union condos
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v311/joshwhit/development/towers_lg.jpg

Riverfront Pointe (first of four towers)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v311/joshwhit/RiverfrontPointe.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v311/joshwhit/development/RiverFrontPointe.jpg

Vantage Pointe (blah)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v311/joshwhit/development/midtown03.jpg

Stella - 1 of 2
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v311/joshwhit/stella.jpg

Sasso (and Vetro - taller one)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v311/joshwhit/sasso.jpg

Montana

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v311/joshwhit/montana.jpg

Princeton II

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v311/joshwhit/princeton2.jpg

Arriva - shortest of 3 towers

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v311/joshwhit/arriva1.gif

5 west

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v311/joshwhit/fivewest.jpg

Chocolate

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v311/joshwhit/chocolate.jpg

National:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v311/joshwhit/national.jpg

Other rumoured/proposed - no pics yet.

-Grand Royale ~25 floors - 16thave, 10th st SW
-Centron Tower - 19 floors 12thave, 5th street
-Holiday Inn site street 13th ave SW 3 towers
-Batistella Project - 13th ave 1st st SW ~20 floors
-Model Milk Building Condo tower ~20-25flrs 17th ave, 2nd street
-Eau Claire Market Condos - 400 units
-Greyhound Bus barns site - 600 units
-12th ave, 8th street - 12-20 storeys
-Chinatown - penninsula condos - 16 storeys
-Laugheed House area - 2 towers 14th ave, 6th street.
-Colonel Belcher site - 2 towers
-10th ave, 14 street - unknown height

^ Wow, the designs are quite amazing. BTW, I have a cousin who's relocating to Calgary from Montreal six months from now, & wants to find out what neighbourhoods would suit a single gal in her 20s. Thanks in advance.

^ Wow, the designs are quite amazing. BTW, I have a cousin who's relocating to Calgary from Montreal six months from now, & wants to find out what neighbourhoods would suit a single gal in her 20s. Thanks in advance.

The Beltline: Where most of these developments are going - a really nice urban neighborhood anchored by 17th avenue.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v311/joshwhit/image1-34.jpg


Kensington - really hip and trendy
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v311/joshwhit/image1-62.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v311/joshwhit/image1-57.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v311/joshwhit/image1-17.jpg


Mission - also quite trendy, dense.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v311/joshwhit/Mission/IMG_0179.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v311/joshwhit/Mission/IMG_0024.jpg

Those would be my top three for someone young.

Inglewood is kinda cool.

If your friend is young and intending to rent, then there is absolutely no reason for her not to aim high and go for the best inner city areas. I am in Toronto as I write this and constantly meeting people who have to settle for either packing several in small apartments, living in dumpy buildings in decent neighbourhoods or living in decent buildings in neighbourhoods that are sketchy or inconvenient, because rental costs are so damn high here (and it costs more to rent in TO than any city in Canada, even while purchasing is more expensive in Van or Vic).

In Calgary, the rental market has become a buyer's one, and you can choose whicheve r neighbourhood suits you and you WILL find something there. I'd go far as to say that you WILL get a fantastic deal if you bargain a little, as with committing to a longer lease period.

Anyway, I'd suggest anything in the rectangle that extends from Hillhurst to Bridgeland to the north, and Bankview to Inglewood in the south. There will be hundreds of options in that area.

Alberta will NEVER experience the bust it did in the early 80's. They would leave the country before having to put up with another NEP. They are a very highly educated and young workforce. Calgary has more hi-tech companies than does Vancouver which is twice its size.
This planet will need oil for atleast the next 50 years but more of it will be needed in India/China etc....
Alberta is in this for the long haul. Now all they need is some people to really become federally influential. Remember, the GTA has nearly twice as many people as Alberta.
Never say never. A drop in oil & gas prices would definately have a negative effect on Alberta's economy. Now, considering that countries such as China and India are rapidly developing and demanding more energy, the chances of a rapid decrease in energy prices is rare. But never say never.

In regards to your second claim, I can think of one large high-tech company located in Vancouver that probably employs more people than the majority of Calgary's IT companies altogether. Electronic Arts, HQ'd in Burnaby, employs over 1000 people. EBAY is another along with companies such as Angiotech, QLT Inc. Vancouver is a hotbed for the IT/biotech sector, dont discount that.
Yes, Calgary has diversified, but to this day it's economy is primarily related to the O&G sector. Much like Edmonton and all of Alberta for that matter.

^^^some good advice...anyway most of those condos seem to be good quality projects...go Calgary. How about Edmonton, anything like this happening there?

www.oneriverpark.com
www.centurypark.ca
www.theilluminada.com
www.theomega.ca
www.jasperproperties.com
www.cdlhomes.com -altavista and rivervista

Founders Ridge is another highrise project coldrsx forgot to mention. No website as of yet....

Oil makes up only 7% of Dubais total GDP of about 30 billion US$ , which is a lot of a city of 1,100,000

More than half a trillion US$ will be spent on projects and infrastructure in the next 15 years

Oh btw , Dubai is getting five 100+ floor buildings (and i dont care why they are getting them) they will make the skyline ROCK.

"Oil makes up only 7% of Dubais total GDP of about 30 billion US$ "

You are obviously talking direct. If you add the multiplier effect, + indirect, 7% direct is very significant.

Towering demand prevails

Mario Toneguzzi
Calgary Herald

Wednesday, June 22, 2005

Calgary's red-hot downtown office market continued its torrid pace during the second quarter of this year with more than 400,000 square feet of additional space being absorbed, according to research done by Colliers International.

Randy Fennessey, president of the Calgary office for Colliers, told the Herald that as of June 13 the vacancy rate in the downtown core is 5.36 per cent -- one of the lowest rates in the past 25 years and making Calgary the hottest downtown office market in the country, if not North America.

"It's interesting to see the vacancy rate in the upper-tier quality buildings is significantly lower than as compared to the B and C class. That's been a historical trend in Calgary because of the energy sector and a lot of head offices in Calgary. Demand for better- quality office space has always been stronger than in lesser-quality buildings," said Fennessey, adding the demand is being fuelled by the energy sector, which is enjoying near-record prices for oil and gas.

Not surprisingly, Livingston Place -- currently a 25-foot hole in the ground at 2nd Street and 3rd Avenue S.W. and two years away from completion - is close to 50 per cent leased already.

Recently, Bentall Real Estate announced the new office tower it is building has secured leases for nearly 180,000 square feet (about 45 per cent of the building) from three major tenants -- Pengrowth Energy Trust, Marsh Canada Limited and Mercer Human Resource Consulting Limited.

Livingston Place is the first Calgary office tower in 20 years to begin construction before being substantially leased. Bentall is developing and building the structure on behalf of property owner bcIMC, one of Canada's largest landlords.

"There are very few large blocks of space available downtown currently," said Fennessey. "Accordingly, large users of space have few options other than new office development, albeit two years in the future."

Fennessey said the current vacancy rate is close to an all-time low in the downtown office core.

"The vacancy rate kind of dipped down in the four-per-cent zone back in the late '70s, early '80s," he said. "But we haven't seen those kind of numbers since 25 years ago.

"You would also look at this and say it's clearly the hottest commercial real estate market in Canada if not North America. It's right up there."

Richard White, of the Calgary Downtown Association, said the low vacancy rate is a "tough one to manage."

And when the rate drops to that level, people begin looking at building new spaces to meet demand.

White said a couple of projects currently underway will add about 750,000 square feet of office space within the next two years.

"That should relieve the pressure somewhat," he said.

Fennessey said many of the good- quality blocks of space available now have multiple offers, which is creating a bidding atmosphere and landlords and sub-landlords are "becoming increasingly bullish on rental rates."

"Tenants looking for space today need to make sure they have a solid plan B space option, since their plan A option may not be available," he said. "And nobody wants to be left without a chair when the music stops, because that's kind of the mentality today. It's like a musical chairs game and there's not enough chairs for participants."

He said if the energy sector remains strong, which most experts anticipate, Calgary's downtown office market will continue to tighten for the next two years until new office buildings are completed to alleviate the current supply shortage.

If demand stays at the current level, Colliers is predicting the vacancy rate in the downtown to drop to 4.6 per cent this year and to bottom out at 3.1 per cent in 2006.

"It's going to be interesting to see how much new development comes out of the ground, and there will be a significant amount. It's just a question of who is going to win the development horse race because there's not room for everybody," said Fennessey. "Whoever gets in position and locks up some tenants early and gets building will have a significant advantage over those who are still sort of trying to get organized or sign a tenant up or get a development permit."

He said in a market like downtown Calgary, where about 60 per cent of office space demand comes from the energy sector, that will determine what happens in the future.

"If you believe what most experts predict, the energy sector is going to continue to be strong for the foreseeable future," said Fennessey. "That will lead you to believe that the demand side of the market is going to remain strong. The supply side of the market is effectively frozen for the next two years. So you put those two economic principles together and the byproduct is increased rental rates."

Year to date, office absorption is over 800,000 square feet.

mtoneguzzi@theherald.canwest.com

Downtown Office Market

Total Availability

Building class Total Sq. Ft. March 31 June 13

AA 6,735, 861 303,845 (4.51%) 268,471 (3.99%)

A 12,036,540 699,955 (5.82 %) 424,039 (3.52%)

B 9,198,030 641,807 (6.98%) 654,059 (7.11%)

C 4,166,342 407,190 (9.77%) 377,433 (9.06%)

Total 32,136,773 2,052,797 (6.39%) 1,724,002 (5.36%)

Source: Colliers International

This story features a factbox "Downtown office market".
© The Calgary Herald 2005

Not surprising. I wonder if that means any new prospects for a new truly high tower. Wasn't there a 70 storey one being bandied about?

Not surprising. I wonder if that means any new prospects for a new truly high tower. Wasn't there a 70 storey one being bandied about?
The 80-storey tower is nothing more than hearsay at the moment.

The reason why there are a number of smaller office proposals in Calgary is that is carries less risk and time. A developer can quickly secure enough tenants for a 250,000 - 400,000 square foot building than a million plus complex. Calgary also has a very cyclical office market, which makes it hard for a developer to propose a large building.

Downtown office vacancies second-lowest in Canada

Ron Chalmers
The Edmonton Journal


Thursday, June 23, 2005


EDMONTON - Vacancies in downtown, Class A office space have fallen to 5.9 per cent in Edmonton -- the second lowest in Canada, after Calgary at 5.8 per cent.

A survey by commercial realtor CB Richard Ellis, released Wednesday, found that Edmonton's overall office vacancy rate, for all office classes and areas, was 8.3 per cent at the end of June, compared to 7.2 per cent in Calgary.

The national average was 11.1 per cent -- down from 12.5 per cent in December.

Cory Wosnack, a partner with Avison Young commercial real estate in Edmonton, said new tenancies in Canadian Western Bank Place, on the southwest corner of 103rd Street and Jasper Avenue, have trimmed that building's vacancy rate to less than six per cent.

"In the last 15 years, it was never below 20 per cent vacant," he said.

Jim Taylor, executive director of the Downtown Business Association, said the downtown office vacancy rate, which exceeded 18 per cent eight years ago, has fallen as the economy has risen -- and has been helped by an absence of new office-tower construction and by conversions of office buildings to residential condos.

"That's not a bad thing," he said. "The buildings are occupied, and we have more people downtown."

The industrial vacancy rate fell to "an all-time low of 3.7 per cent" in the Edmonton area, including Nisku, according to the CBRE report.

"We anticipate that tenant demand in both the office and industrial markets will continue to increase over the course of the year," it predicted. "This will translate into rising rental rates, particularly in the office market where new buildings are not expected to be built."

Rising demand for industrial space is expected to be balanced by new construction in northwest and south Edmonton.

rchalmers@thejournal.canwest.com

© The Edmonton Journal 2005

The 80-storey tower is nothing more than hearsay at the moment.

The reason why there are a number of smaller office proposals in Calgary is that is carries less risk and time. A developer can quickly secure enough tenants for a 250,000 - 400,000 square foot building than a million plus complex. Calgary also has a very cyclical office market, which makes it hard for a developer to propose a large building.

Very true indeed. There is another proposal from Oxford (who built Canterra, Ernst & Young) about a 1.4 million square ft. set of towers immediately west of Canterra. This has been reported by several reputable sources such as Calgary Business Magazine. They were also surveying the parking lot a few months ago. There seems to be movement there - hopefully it will materialize into something.

As for some of the smaller projects - We are still waiting for renderings from Tonko's 16 storey tower - to be built on spec on 3rd street and 6th ave. Also the Homberg proposal on the former post office site and the redesign of City Centre - a 580 000 or so tower accross from Eau Claire. The tower on 8th ave and 5th is now under construction, as is the first 21 storey tower Linvingston Place.

It would be interesting to see how an EnCana tower (if that rumour turns out - the speculation is intensifying further from EnCana employees themselves) affects other large projects such as the Oxford one. In 2000 the 50 storey Bankers Hall East went up at the same time as TransCanada tower, so I guess the market could probably handle and infact may require several large projects to keep up with crazy demand and extraordinary absorbtion rates.

[QUOTE=josh white] the speculation is intensifying further from EnCana employees themselvesQUOTE]

Really??? Thats interesting, do you know people who work for the company?

The 80-storey tower is nothing more than hearsay at the moment.

EnCana seems to be moving quite nicely towards a 60+ floor headquarters building, part of a 2M sqft complex. We already knew they purchased parking lots and the York Hotel. In Calgary City Hall on Tuesday, they received the okay to take down the York. Construction is 2006-2009.

Renderings aren't available, but it will be the tallest building in Western Canada for sure.

Where is EnCana currently located??

They have a shorter building somewhere in downtown Calgary. The company is spread out over 5 different building, including both Bankers Hall East & West.

....they won't be the ONLY tenant, will they?

^ Who knows...they might be... :dunno:

Encana certainly has a lot of employees...

Alberta is in this for the long haul. Now all they need is some people to really become federally influential. Remember, the GTA has nearly twice as many people as Alberta.

I'd move to Alberta no problems... except that I'd miss Ontario too much. As one might guess by my name, I'm a canoeing kind of person..

My sister-in-law, a friend, and an aquaintance have all moved to Calgary within the last few years.

^^ Kananaskis country is great for canoeing. And IMO the best white-water rafting east of BC.

^^ Kananaskis country is great for canoeing. And IMO the best white-water rafting east of BC.
Depends on what your definition of great is. For the most part, canoeing near Calgary is very limited - mainly rivers up to Class II/III. The nearest flat water of any interest is either Grey Wells Park in BC (~5 hours) or lakes north of E-town (~4/5 hrs).

Since moving out here I've basically given up canoeing - but replaced it with river kayaking. Not the same, but good nonetheless.

Algonquin, ever been up to Quetico?? For my money, it's the best collection of canoeing lakes one could imagine. While A-park is great, Q-park is certainly something else. I've done 7 day trips thru there and never touched the same lake twice.

That plus, A-park probably gets more vistors on one summer long weekend than Q-park gets all year!

Algonquin, ever been up to Quetico?? For my money, it's the best collection of canoeing lakes one could imagine. While A-park is great, Q-park is certainly something else. I've done 7 day trips thru there and never touched the same lake twice.

That plus, A-park probably gets more vistors on one summer long weekend than Q-park gets all year!

I've never been, for the sole reason that it's quite far from here. I will do it some day though. I'm also a big Killarney fan.

There must be some good canoeing in northern Alberta.. like Wood Buffalo, perhaps? The thing is, you can't walk a straight line in ON without falling into a lake... but this is off-topic.

What I want to know is, what will the provincial government do with all it's money? Are we going to see some civic projects of herculean proportions, or what?

Gosh, I hope not. Calgary or Edmonton getting garish looking projects is not a good thing.

its not meant to be compared in the sense of crappy projects..but more the amount of projects and greater hight in the cities because of the oil money.

A little off topic, but the original post mentioned what Oil might to do Calgary.
Oil prices have crashed heavily in the last 3 days from $68 to $61 per barrell.
Mind you alot of it is panic selling and oil will probably start going back up during the winter heating month.
But for now, look for sub-$1.00 gas prices very shortly

SUb $1.00 gas prices, well thats been the case here in Edmonton for a while now.

Just got sub-$1.00 for the first time here in Toronto since pre-Katrina.

^^ Kananaskis country is great for canoeing. And IMO the best white-water rafting east of BC.

The Kan is just a little trickle of water. Check out the Slave River in Fort Smith NWT.

Both citys are going to be great. Calgary has a much better skyline than Dubai had just a few short years ago. Dont be suprised if what is now concidered unrealistic, becomes a reality that is fantastic. super talls are a given for Calgary. you can bank on that.

Both citys are going to be great. Calgary has a much better skyline than Dubai had just a few short years ago. Dont be suprised if what is now concidered unrealistic, becomes a reality that is fantastic. super talls are a given for Calgary. you can bank on that.

Hey! A point we agree on!

They just announced a $7.4 Billion provincial surplus yesturday, so maybe they can get ambitious and build a few tall ones. But OMG if Klein decides to go and offer $1000 prosperity cheques I'll cry.

How 'bout sharing the wealth Alberta? We're all Canadians!

:)

^ Correction:

$400 prosperity cheques.

i think DINO is speaking of future cheques

Exactly. If Klein ups the ante, it'll leave a sour taste in the mouths of the rest of the country.

Hey! A point we agree on!

They just announced a $7.4 Billion provincial surplus yesturday, so maybe they can get ambitious and build a few tall ones. But OMG if Klein decides to go and offer $1000 prosperity cheques I'll cry.

How 'bout sharing the wealth Alberta? We're all Canadians!

:)

How about you move here? :sly:

How about you move here? :sly:

Wouldn't be home.

its ours! and you cant have any. welllllll maybe ;)

Wouldn't be home.

I think that you would would grow to love Calgary. Its a great place and the folks up there are just fantastic. I am sure they would do all they could to make you feel at home too.

PS:no hard feelings eh. :hug:

I think that you would would grow to love Calgary. Its a great place and the folks up there are just fantastic. I am sure they would do all they could to make you feel at home too.


see, now, i was born and raised in Calgary, and i don't think its that great of a place. plus i think the folks there are way to stuck up and snobish now that the oil money is back.

if you want an alberta city to live in, move to Edmonton, the rent is cheep and the people are actually friendly

see, now, i was born and raised in Calgary, and i don't think its that great of a place. plus i think the folks there are way to stuck up and snobish now that the oil money is back.

if you want an alberta city to live in, move to Edmonton, the rent is cheep and the people are actually friendly

Well I was born and raised (a bit) in Edmonton and I don't think the people are all that friendly... :sly:

Well I was born and raised (a bit) in Edmonton and I don't think the people are all that friendly... :sly:

I doubt whether Calgary would boom into a better city--- things started to change recently... Calgary is booming very much like Vancouver 15 years ago and it would become another Vancouver? Yeah, it would be very famous by then but Calgary would eventually lost its uniqueness in North America, simply because too many people from all over Canada and US move to there. Luckily, it seems it takes another 10 years for this to happen if the boom continues. And Calgary right now still looks like the best city to live in the whole world, yet Edmonton is getting close, and well, Boris says that people are not all that friendly, but so does Calgary, or even Thompson. Generally Alberta is famous for its friendliness and laid-back throughout 20th century, but it probably not the case for this century. All of us are now thinking of Albertan oil, and the booming Calgary.

Getting back on the original topic....the next Dubai??? Why would Calgary or Edmonton aspire to become third world cities?

Getting back on the original topic....the next Dubai??? Why would Calgary or Edmonton aspire to become third world cities?


well see, i don't honestly think it will be either. but if i had to choose, then i would choose Calgary because of the ideals. the money is in Calgary, and its climate is more appealing. also its in a good spot transportation wise.

however, i think Fort MacMurray is the city everyone should be watching...

well see, i don't honestly think it will be either. but if i had to choose, then i would choose Calgary because of the ideals. the money is in Calgary, and its climate is more appealing. also its in a good spot transportation wise.

however, i think Fort MacMurray is the city everyone should be watching...

Indeed, Fort Mac is definately one to watch, especially with the two condo towers they have proposed.

Getting back on the original topic....the next Dubai??? Why would Calgary or Edmonton aspire to become third world cities?

I agree. Who wants to mimic a theocratic, undemocratic place like Dubai?
If Cal/Edm are trying to "catch up" to other cities it needs to set it's sights higher or god help them.

Exactly. If Klein ups the ante, it'll leave a sour taste in the mouths of the rest of the country.

Seems the "East" (rest of the country) left a bad taste in our mouths with the NEP. and poor western political representation in Ottawa for years.

I'm thinking sharing what is Alberta's, is already happening by equalization payments...And you want more?

Perhaps the best way to benefit is to move here and reap the rewards.

I've never been, for the sole reason that it's quite far from here. I will do it some day though. I'm also a big Killarney fan.

There must be some good canoeing in northern Alberta.. like Wood Buffalo, perhaps? The thing is, you can't walk a straight line in ON without falling into a lake... but this is off-topic.

What I want to know is, what will the provincial government do with all it's money? Are we going to see some civic projects of herculean proportions, or what?

I'm thinking you have never been to Alberta before? If canoeing is your passion then after canoeing in mountain lakes like... Lake Louise, Peyto Lake, Spray lakes and Kananaskis Lakes, you will not want to go back to Ontario. I'm sure Ontario has wonderful lakes, but you can't compare breathing the freash mountain air as you glide along in emerald colored water stareing at the high mountain peaks.

Flawless!

I agree. Who wants to mimic a theocratic, undemocratic place like Dubai?
If Cal/Edm are trying to "catch up" to other cities it needs to set it's sights higher or god help them.
if you or anyone has actually read the whole thread you would understand why i said Dubai. I dont feel like explaining it again....besides this thread should be dead...its really really old.