Shaky rail plan gets vote of confidence

A county planning board says it supports the $1.5-billion monorail concept. Making it a reality is the hard road ahead.

By NICOLE JOHNSON
St Petersburg Times
Published June 14, 2005

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A Pinellas County planning board recently took a symbolic step toward making a $1.5-billion elevated rail system a reality. But the plan still faces major roadblocks.

A county leader in transportation remains opposed to the idea. And no one knows exactly where the money would come from.

Still, the majority of the Pinellas Metropolitan Planning Organization board voted last week to support a plan to build 38 miles of elevated monorail and create a series of buses and trolleys to support it.

Some consider Wednesday's vote an indication that county officials are finally sensing a need to get moving on the project.

"That wait at the light is only getting longer," said MPO board member and County Commissioner Ronnie Duncan, who heads the Pinellas Mobility Initiative steering committee studying the plan. "I don't want anyone thinking we'll put a spade in the ground and move to a Disneylike monorail. What we did ... as a board is agree to a plan for an integrated transportation system for the county."

Still, some question the idea.

County Commissioner Karen Seel cast the lone vote against the plan last Wednesday.

"In 95-degree weather, will someone really take the rail and walk the rest of the way?" said Seel, the MPO chairwoman. "I'd have a hard time asking taxpayers to commit $1.5-billion to this project."

Others on the County Commission also are doubtful, which could prove troublesome when considering that the commission holds taxing authority in the county.

"I just think we're too developed to integrate something into our system," County Commissioner Susan Latvala said. "We're way too far down the road for this."

If usage is Seel's top concern, funding is a close second.

While $1.5-billion has been a price tag tossed around for the entire project, Seel said the cost probably will be higher considering inflation.
Planners and supporters of the rail plan have been hesitant to pinpoint just exactly where the money will come from. Instead they emphasize a multiphase approach that relies on federal money and, possibly, a new local tax.

"If we were going to do it at once, you could talk about a funding source," said county planning director Brian Smith. "But if you're doing it incrementally, you have to figure out on the short haul how to get projects in."

The PMI steering committee has discussed asking voters to decide on a penny transit tax in 2008 to fund the project, said Jay Lasita, member of the MPO board and PMI committee. The County Commission would have to agree to place the question on a referendum.

"You have to put it in the hands of the people," said Lasita, vice chair of the St. Petersburg City Council. "The point is to get this in front of the voters as soon as possible."

In the past two decades, $4-million in federal money has been spent in consulting and planning on the project. And $3-million more is on the way.

The new money could mean the county's first steps on the project beyond the boardroom.

The PMI committee is considering putting the millions toward three proposed projects: an elevated rail that would run on the Clearwater Causeway from downtown to the beach and rapid bus systems in St. Petersburg and the northern portion of the county.

County planners envision that one day these projects would serve key roles in a completed rail system.

Planners envision a three-part system of speedy buses with designated lanes serving nine corridors in the county, a correlating trolley system, and 38 miles of elevated monorail connecting destinations in Clearwater to the St. Petersburg area. It's expected that 117,000 people will use the system a day, and that it will cost about $1.25 per ride, Smith said.

Plans for the system have been discussed for more than 20 years, a lengthy planning process that's not uncommon.

The city of Jacksonville's Skyway rail system was more than 20 years in the making. Planning for the $184-million project began in the late 1970s as part of a federal pilot program. The last piece of the 2.5-mile system through downtown Jacksonville was completed in 2000. The system has been criticized for taking too long to complete and for low ridership once it got moving.

In the coming months, the PMI committee will narrow down exactly which projects will get a portion of the $3-million, Duncan said.

"We've got to start spending it in a way that taxpayers can see an effort to get one of these things started," he said. "If we don't, we'll wake up 10 years from now and say, "We wish we had done something."'

I don't know if this has been posted before, but here is a link to the Pinellas Monorail System website. According to an article in the SP Times today, the county commission voted to approve funding.

http://www.pinellasmobility.com/index.htm

Here's an image of the adopted route. (If you go to the website, you can click on the squares and see the arials):

http://www.pinellasmobility.com/images/alignment_map/main_map_sm.jpg


Here are some images of the stations:

http://www.pinellasmobility.com/images/marina_arial_small.jpg
Clearwater Marina Station arial

http://www.pinellasmobility.com/images/marina_small.jpg
Clearwater Marina Station view

http://www.pinellasmobility.com/images/regional_rendering.jpg
Regional Station model

http://www.pinellasmobility.com/images/community_rendering.jpg
Neighborhood Station model

Who knows. We might actually see a rail system sooner rather than later.

I kind of like it - though I do not think it should parallel the interestate and US19 so much - but I'll believe it when I see it. At least they might get to vote, which is more than Hillsborough gets.

it does that to keep down right-of-way costs...they already have enough on US 19 and 275

An elevated monorail should be able to go down the middle of just about any divided or "5th lane" avenue. Only a few feet is needed for the piers.

I also think that they should keep away from following I-275, and instead use like MLK or 4th as the N-S corridor for St Pete.

I don't mind it following US 19 so much though, as the alternative for that upper/mid part of the county are less varied. Later on, a westward looping of the system could easily go from DT Clearwater to the Tyrone area via Alt 19/113th Ave...

Tampa needs something like this due to growing population. I hate to think what traffic will be like in 5-10 years.

I just checked some stats and pinellas co has a population of nearly 1 million and only about 280 square miles. there is about 3300 people per square mile. I had no idea that pinellas was so much more dense than hillsborough which is at about 950 people per square mile. Maybe this has something to do with Tampa not voting for light rail. What do you guys think?

Nope. Has nothing to do with it because absolute density is irrelevant - Hillsborough has a lot more open space too. It is the density of the exact area and Hillsborough is actually laid out better for rail in many places.

The problem is the County Commission

At least its a start. They needed to get this thing at least going before they run out of space.

Florida needs a lot of this in a lot of cities, the car crap is getting out of hand - and I wont even get into the people who voted down the high-speed rail city-interconnect system last year................... :bash:

I wish Hillsbough County would built a transportation system to meet the monorail system. Infact, I don't know why Hillsborough and Pinellas do not have a common transportation organization. Its actually too bad the two counties aren't part of the same county like they use to be. I mean thousands of people commute between the two counties for beaches, work, residences, etc. The two counties have a lot too offer when combined.

Florida needs a lot of this in a lot of cities, the car crap is getting out of hand - and I wont even get into the people who voted down the high-speed rail city-interconnect system last year................... :bash:

You mean the people who voted down that boondoggle ?

An elevated monorail should be able to go down the middle of just about any divided or "5th lane" avenue. Only a few feet is needed for the piers.


Agreed, it does open up East/West cooridors for expansion throughout the county if they like (which opens up more direct links to a Hillsborough system)

You mean the people who voted down that boondoggle ?


Nobody voted down Bush's infinite tax cuts for businesses and decreasing of state revenues that serve as a boondoggle on the growth of state infrastructure....

Oh, you meant HSR? :P To each his own with boondoggle's. Some see corporate / special interest whoring as the true culprit and others see infrastructure as the culprit.

Someone asked if Density of Hillsborough County was the reason why Light Rail was voted down? No, it was because some people believe that ANY rail is just a waste of money that belongs to them..... Roads get more crowded, traffic gets worse but more money isn't going to the goernment so things are rosie even if the commute is getting longer and longer.

How fast is this monorail supposed to travel at between stations?

Nobody voted down Bush's infinite tax cuts for businesses and decreasing of state revenues that serve as a boondoggle on the growth of state infrastructure....

Oh, you meant HSR? :P To each his own with boondoggle's. Some see corporate / special interest whoring as the true culprit and others see infrastructure as the culprit.

Someone asked if Density of Hillsborough County was the reason why Light Rail was voted down? No, it was because some people believe that ANY rail is just a waste of money that belongs to them..... Roads get more crowded, traffic gets worse but more money isn't going to the goernment so things are rosie even if the commute is getting longer and longer.

So one good boondoggle deserves another ? I'm not sure what you're saying, John. I don't know that HSR was voted down ostensibly because it was rail. I think it was voted down because it was a bad rail plan.

And, FYI, I consider less money going to government a good thing, based on the supposition that the less the government can do, the better. :)

HSR was voted down because of bad wording, dirty politics, and ill-informed voters. I'm still waiting to see someone present a solution to this state's transportation problems.

The only things (future boondoggles) I heard are a 7 county beltway around Tampa, widening I-4 through Orlando (even though millions were spent widening it less than two years ago) and ole Jeb wanting to raise our taxes for more road construction.

We've got just as much of a chance in solving traffic congestion by building only more roads, as we do squeezing blood out of a turnip.

If HSR wasn't going to work then they need to give some kind of light rail a try. Expanding the interstates is not the answer.

BEfore you all go wacky - take note: Light Rail was never "voted down" in Hillsborough because the county commission has never let anyone vote on it - includign the liberal types and the conservative types. . . they all have taken it away from the voters for now - though I think a vote is finally going to come in the next 5 or so years as more people push it and Ms. Storms is term limited, hopefully completely out of the commission.

I wish Hillsbough County would built a transportation system to meet the monorail system. Infact, I don't know why Hillsborough and Pinellas do not have a common transportation organization. Its actually too bad the two counties aren't part of the same county like they use to be. I mean thousands of people commute between the two counties for beaches, work, residences, etc. The two counties have a lot too offer when combined.

The two counties should come together and form one regional transit authority -- at least for the sake of rail. I also think that the counties along the I-4 corridor could come together and build our own commuter rail line without amending the state constitution.

does anyone remember the test from siemens? it ran on existing tracks in oldsmar/westchase(northeast pinellas-northwest hillsborough) for a few weeks back in mid-late 90s......

I remember a seimens train that ran on the tracks in south tampa and I loved it. I lived right off the rail line in the SoHo area. It went to downtown or ybor or something like that. I know it also stopped at HydePark. loved it cause I think it was free at the time and it saved me money on the parking and the driving expense.

I also live arpund South Howard and remember that project. It seemed pretty cool but I never used it. I remember all the stations looking empty too. I guess people here are just reluctant to give up their cars. I would hop on that thing in a heartbeat if it were still around today...

That was a one weekend demonstration and the cars were packed solid. It worked well, but the county does not want to deal with stuff mostly in the city. What the city should do is work on building it within the city limits - apply for the money from the feds and state and basically force the county to do something

The city and county must go together on this project. A train for the city of Tampa only and not the county will not be financially feasible. You have to connect to the outer suburbs and bring in the workers.

The city and county must go together on this project. A train for the city of Tampa only and not the county will not be financially feasible. You have to connect to the outer suburbs and bring in the workers.

That's the catch-22 of Tampa Bay... Pinellas is a Suburb of Tampa and Pinellas and Hillsborough have that "Seperate but equal" philosophy about whatever they do...

Hillsborough county seems to RESENT having the city of Tampa to deal with -- with exception of having a central location for big game football and beer swilling after hours (RayJay and Ybor, respectively). They'd prefer everything remain suburban and sprawled and see commuter transit as something Roads were made for. Rail? Who needs rail? That is SO 18th century! :P

Actually, the initial rail route in only in the city anyway, so they don't need to. Eventually, once people see ti work, they will want it anyway and the county will be forced to act.

But who has the nads for that tactic?

As for the county, it is complicated but even the commissioners that represent Tampa resent the city - I think it is more personal(ity) politics and less practical planning.

If the Pinellas plan is passed eventually and it works, Tampa and Hillsbourgh County will be forced to come up with their own plan, together or not.

^No they won't.

No they won't but they may get shamed into it - which is why I wanted Orlando to go ahead - nothing makes these guys move faster than having a "rival" do something. That's why I want to keep reminding them about Charlotte.

I sort of believe the "Shaming into it" concept.... Just because that's how this area has worked in the past.

Like I'made mention time and again, Pinellas vs. Hillsborough is like the Hattsfields vs. the McCoys. They're at war traying to one-up each other.

As for the county, it is complicated but even the commissioners that represent Tampa resent the city - I think it is more personal(ity) politics and less practical planning.


This is a sad reality that we also have going on in metro Atlanta. Our city has learned the hard way that the suburbs are not going to be interested in the big picture when it comes to transit. Sooner or later you just have to stop asking them to get involved. Tampa (the city) will be better off if it starts leading the way. Atlanta (the city) has been doing this more often and seems to be better off for it. By nature of density Pinellas is an urban city on its own. The fact that it sees the need to do something is proof. Pinellas is probably better off if it does not get bogged down in the political pissing contest on the other side of the bay.

I have been following this monorail project for a few years now. I understand the technology and what locations are best suited for it to work. It would work here. In fact it might work better than any other mode of urban transport. The low impact on the landscape is very important.

Hey, Pinellas has it's own political pissing going on between the cities. The thing is, with Pinellas taking up less land, each cities stake is much bigger and the with the open space gone - the concept of cotninuing to sprawl out just is a figment of imagination. Some commissioners (view Susan Latvala's comments) don't understand the cocept of urban renewal - mostly because the county doesn't want to think of itself as an urban environment.

I think the retirees and the Suburbanists might be the ones who effectively kill off the monorail if it ever comes to a vote. They don't like change nor see it's merrits. They can cite cases where the Monorail would likely be a tourist trap and not a mode for commuting. It's something the county needs and something that residents will likely fight because fo the bill.

One thing that the site for the monorail doesn't tell you (and I just started wondering this myself) is where the Livery for the system will be....?

It is very good to see that mass transit is at least being talked about. However, In my opinion there are a two major planning flaws in the proposed plan.

1.) Metro stations should be walkable. This means that high density development should be surrounding the stations... or at the very least, there should be opportunities for NEW dense development close by. (The local land use plan should support this). It also means that there shouldn't be enormous barriers like a large highway impeeding pedestrian access accros the street. Stations to the side of an interstate highway are not walkable. The North - South route in St. Petersburg should follow the 4th St. corridor, Not I-275. 9th St. is another alternative. The stations should not be at the edge of an 8 lane Interstate highway. This is just rediculous planning IMO. In contrast, The Central Ave corridor and Drew St. corridor are aptly picked. I also think to a lesser extent that McMullen Booth/East Lake would be a better N-S corridor then US-19 in the north part of the county. Is it their plan to build pedestrian bridges at every station across US-19 and I-275??? (I think it is)

2.) I commend Pinellas for taking leadership in developing a Mass Transit plan, but they need to incorporate the possibility of a Hillsborough connector. The purpose of "PLANNING" is to be prepared to meet the needs of future growth and development. They should plan for a Hillsborough connector at least on paper. Imagine how different the plan would look if it showed a route going half way out the Howard Franklin Bridge. Or as an alternative I am intrigued at the idea of using the existing Friendship Trail Bridge (if it is structurally sound or can be reinforced) as a route for a Hills/Pin connector. They should at least study this to find out where the best place for a connector would be. For example, if it were decided that the Gandy corridor was the best place for a connector, the Gandy station would have to be designed to handle 3-way traffic (Trains leaving N, S and E). I imagine this has to change the size of the station needed and the configuration. The same thing goes for the Airport station if I-275 is the connector. It is beyond me that they could move forward with this plan without even consideration of this issue


Heres a link to the friendship trailbridge: http://www.friendshiptrail.org/index.html

^I agree with all of that (as my earlier post pointed out some of the same flaws), except for the Mc Mullen Booth part. I think that would be a pretty lousy path, as it is highly suburbanized and is sure to remain so at the demand of nieghborhood NIMBYs. As you said, putting any transit line where development cannot grow up around it is utterly pointless.

(btw, it has been discussed in the past that the Howard Franklin could not give up a lane for a rail ROW, because it isn't strong enough to support the wieght. I'm certain that the Friendship trail bridge is even weaker, considering its age. A crossing of the bay will require a new bridge... which means big, big $$$$... which means don't count on it in our lifetime. :()

Well, the North county stations would likely be more of the Park and Ride suburban variety station then the Urban Village style station that you might find on Central or 4th. I doubt that they would be very urban in the North County on 19 or McMullen Booth. But if people drive to them and park their car and ride the rest of the way, that reduces traffic congestion for everyone.

As far as a new bridge being expensive... yeah I am sure it would. Frankly I don't get the whole monorail concept requirng a concrete elevated guideway. Allthough it sure is cool it seems so much more expensive then light rail.

One thing I have a conflict with is the idea of the Train going through Suburban Areas and then the thought of a connector between Hillsborough and Pinellas...

First off, going through Suburban areas isn't entirely bad but the road situation does paint a problem - putting the Monorail int he middle of 6+ lanes of highway on the median isn't going to attract people to walk to the stops. Yet it just might at the same time if the Rail (mono, El, landlevel rail, etc) was going where they were going.

Ever been way out on Long Island with the LIRR just off Montauk Highway? Suburbia spreads all around it in a fashion that can be critiqued (at least in Suffolk County) as less dense than Pinellas. People commute to stations. The problem is there won't be parking for a commute to the station to travel where they want to go...

I know everyone hates this, but I still think that the North Pinellas cooridor is a great connector route. The Monorail line ends currently at SR 580 (Main Street -- north west end of Countryside Mall's property) and yet if you were to build a connector -- it'd be pretty simple to use the median on 580 that runs right into Hillsborough Avenue.....

Oldsmar is the next boom town - they've been building out through sprawl and the next phase is probably high rises on the water.... There's your density right there.

I know everyone hates this, but I still think that the North Pinellas cooridor is a great connector route. The Monorail line ends currently at SR 580 (Main Street -- north west end of Countryside Mall's property) and yet if you were to build a connector -- it'd be pretty simple to use the median on 580 that runs right into Hillsborough Avenue.....

Oldsmar is the next boom town - they've been building out through sprawl and the next phase is probably high rises on the water.... There's your density right there.

I think you're right, the Oldsmar/Tampa Road or the 580 route are the only feasible corridor options for a Hillsborough-Pinellas connector. It is unfortunate though, because it will probably add a good chunk of time for those commuting between Tampa and St. Pete, therefore those schmucks will be more likely to stick to their cars. On the other hand, that route does make sense for travel to and from Clearwater and Dunedin. Either way, though, I think some connection to Hillsborough is imperative for the success of a Pinellas mass transit system.

First off, going through Suburban areas isn't entirely bad but the road situation does paint a problem - putting the Monorail int he middle of 6+ lanes of highway on the median isn't going to attract people to walk to the stops.
I assume that for most stations, a sliver of land could be bought and the station would sit to the side of the road (with a ped bridge as usage warrants). Strip mall parking lots and undeveloped setbacks would be a good bet IMO. I'm sure that in some cases, existing development would have to be razed, but it is certainly less intrusive than the whole line needing new ROW (like at-grade would), and especially less than widening or building new roads would require.


Oh, and I steadfastly maintain that any future rail transit seeking to be a connector will cross the bay, not go around it. The SR580 corridor would be much more effective as a commuter feeder to Tampa, and would prove useless for anyone travelling to/from any location in Pinellas that is south of like Gulf to Bay Blvd.

It would certainly be a god-awful long ride to go *around* the bay.

Lou... You're not a moderator, so please don't tell people what to do here.

Back to the topic please.

a great example of what some of the stations may look like is the new, or under construction still, Park & Ride area in the gateway area near carillon, its for buses, and future transportation...so you get the layout of maybe a future station

^Park and ride at Carillon? say huh?

I'm a bit confused... Why put a park and ride station at an employment center? Shouldn't the park and ride stations be elsewhere, with the busses going TO Carillon, not FROM Carillon? Granted, I know didly about the bussing plans for Pinellas, but that just sounds counterintuitive.

The buses should be traveling to Carillion to bring in more people from outside the monorail area.

I agree that the zoning around stations needs to support increased density and mixed-use developments, particularly in St. Pete and some of the stations along US 19. It could lead to major redevelopment projects, like the one proposed for the old Tampa Bay Outlet Mall site. (Imagine Countryside Mall with decked parking and mid-rise apartments/condos.) I do think it's ok to have the monorail run along I-275. As long as there are pedestrian bridges that cross to the east side of the interstate in addition to dense redevelopment around the stations, it could be a walkable system.

I also like the ideas of the connections to Hillsborough along the Gandy or SR580. A Gandy connection could tie into the Tampa rail plan which, I believe, has a spur along the rail lines that run parallel to the Crosstown in south Tampa. The connection along SR580 would also be cheaper and could still get people pretty close to Westshore. IMO, it would be worth it to build both lines. Whatever route they chose -- Howard Franklin, Gandy or otherwise -- the connection to Hillsborough is key to making this a real success.

^Any rail line into S Tampa will be a long, long way off, if ever... Thus, a cross-bay Gandy rail connector is highly unlikely to occur in our lifetimes IMO.

To be viable, the connector should be a smaller version of a high speed rail system. What better than to whisked away from your DT Tampa hotel to the beaches in minutes, rather than drive in heavy traffic.