continue discussion here...

Man... Us Wisconsinites and Milwaukeeans are sure excited about Milwaukee. We are filling up threads left and right.

Any new pics of UCT out there? Being out of state makes it hard to keep track, considering Emporis takes a while to get new pics up.

Plus, has 601 Ogden started construction yet?

Thanks.

avissers


I don't have any pics to post (actually I have pics, but don't know how to post them), but I can tell you the core of UCT is at 4 stories today. The first floor deck is still is in forms, so it is still hard to tell how big it will look next to KT. As for 601, there is absolutely nothing going on there. The sign on the site says construction to start in Spring 2005, but they missed that one. Also, City Green in nothing but a sign and one piece of equipment on site doing nothing at all. I walk by these everyday so if you want updates, I'll be glad to give them.

avissers


I don't have any pics to post (actually I have pics, but don't know how to post them), but I can tell you the core of UCT is at 4 stories today. The first floor deck is still is in forms, so it is still hard to tell how big it will look next to KT. As for 601, there is absolutely nothing going on there. The sign on the site says construction to start in Spring 2005, but they missed that one. Also, City Green in nothing but a sign and one piece of equipment on site doing nothing at all. I walk by these everyday so if you want updates, I'll be glad to give them.

Thanks for the update.

Jeeez... what is this?

We've got over 1000 posts about Milwaukee developement. I havent been here long, but this is awesome..

in your FACE every other cities developement threads!!

Jeeez... what is this?

We've got over 1000 posts about Milwaukee developement. I havent been here long, but this is awesome..

in your FACE every other cities developement threads!!
Actually Baltimore is almost 300 posts into their third thread in the Northeastern forms so they got us beat by a few.

I must say I've enjoyed that thread quite a bit. Because of it I now can say Baltimore is my favorite Northeast/Midatlantic city.

A set back for the Milwaukee Public Market.

http://www.jsonline.com/bym/news/jun05/335467.asp

The opening of the $10 million Milwaukee Public Market has been delayed as the new fresh food market in the Historic Third Ward continues to seek tenants.

Former church would be spared from demolition

PabstCity developers propose transforming building into retail space

By TOM DAYKIN
tdaykin@journalsentinel.com
http://www.jsonline.com/bym/news/jun05/335440.asp

Posted: June 21, 2005

A downtown Milwaukee building targeted for demolition as part of the planned redevelopment of the former Pabst brewery would be preserved under a new proposal disclosed Tuesday.

The former German Methodist church, at the southeast corner of W. Juneau Ave. and N. 11th St., would be renovated into retail space, according to a memo sent to members of the Common Council by Jerry Franke, president of Wispark LLC, which is leading the development effort.

Franke's memo said the decision to preserve the church was reached "after much discussion and many meetings" with Ald. Robert Bauman, whose district includes the Pabst site.

Bauman had sought to preserve two of 14 buildings that Wispark wants to demolish, including the former malt house at the southwest corner of W. Juneau Ave. and N. 10th St.

Franke had said in May that Wispark would consider preserving the church. Bauman said Wispark's change of heart on the church was "a positive development."

Click on the link above to get the full article

With all the excited Milwaukee forumers, the city planners are not doing enough to keep me intested for very long if all they`re building is two condo towers and nothing else. And as for Baltimore what is there city doing to keep them excited?

With all the excited Milwaukee forumers, the city planners are not doing enough to keep me intested for very long if all they`re building is two condo towers and nothing else. And as for Baltimore what is there city doing to keep them excited?

City Planners do not have the funds, budgets, or time to build or propose private development projects. It is developers that have to fund the projects (w/ possibly some assistance from the City through a TIF or BID), find tenants, hire architects, and so on and so forth. I'm really not sure what you mean about the city planner comment. Please elaborate.

The people that plan the city.

City planners are not resposible for actualy desgining and building buildings. That's not their job! The people who are responsible for that are developers, investors, and architects, as has already been explained. And decisions on whether or not to build them depend on a whole lot of factors.

And by the way, there's a hell of a lot more going on that just building two condo towers. That's the whole point of these development news threads, it to show all the stuff that's going on (and even then, we aren't covering every single project, because there are just so many of them)...not just the high-rises.

Cities are so much more than just tall buildings and skylines!

I didn`t say they what they did just that they planned cities. Thanks for explaining it twice even though I heard you the first time.

You're welcome.

City planners are not resposible for actualy desgining and building buildings. That's not their job! The people who are responsible for that are developers, investors, and architects, as has already been explained. And decisions on whether or not to build them depend on a whole lot of factors.

And by the way, there's a hell of a lot more going on that just building two condo towers. That's the whole point of these development news threads, it to show all the stuff that's going on (and even then, we aren't covering every single project, because there are just so many of them)...not just the high-rises.

Cities are so much more than just tall buildings and skylines!

high-rises happen to be popular among people, but you`re right, there is other things going on that are interesting besides condo towers and high-rises.

40748246--
You are Badger...we know.
STOP POSTING FOR LOVE OF GOD

What the hell are you?

I'm not 407... any moderator here should be able to confirm that.

I will post all I want and I am not Badger. Maybe Eastsider is Denvernative?

The people that plan the city.

I didn`t say they what they did just that they planned cities. Thanks for explaining it twice even though I heard you the first time.



I am now dumber for reading this. :bash:

....





hi

I think there's general confusion out in the world about what a "planner" is.

In strictest terms, the planners are the ones dealing with the "big picture" issues in development. They also make sure that development is in line with these big picture goals.

For some, that does include things like design codes and building height limitations. So some planners do get into issues of design, but it's not as if they actually "deisgn" the buildings.

So, when you say, "the planners have done a good job revitalizing Downtown," you're half right and half wrong. The developers were the ones that actually built the buildings and did the renovations. But the planners had a hand in it by helping conceive of the big picture direction of the area, and ensuring that new development falls in line with that vision.

I think there's general confusion out in the world about what a "planner" is.

In strictest terms, the planners are the ones dealing with the "big picture" issues in development. They also make sure that development is in line with these big picture goals.

For some, that does include things like design codes and building height limitations. So some planners do get into issues of design, but it's not as if they actually "deisgn" the buildings.

So, when you say, "the planners have done a good job revitalizing Downtown," you're half right and half wrong. The developers were the ones that actually built the buildings and did the renovations. But the planners had a hand in it by helping conceive of the big picture direction of the area, and ensuring that new development falls in line with that vision.

I fully understand.

Actually Baltimore is almost 300 posts into their third thread in the Northeastern forms so they got us beat by a few.


Well, this is what, the 7th or 8th iteration (i am sure someone is keeping track) along the lines of the former What About Milwaukee? threads, and many of those had way more than 500 replies before being closed. It would hazard that this Milwaukee discussion is definately up there in length with the best of them. And to think, all that discussion, and the only thing interesting going on is the construction of 2 condo towers! Hmmmmmm... :weird: :banana:

That doesn't sound like too bad of a setback for the public market. I think interest for it will probably be pretty strong.

Hi guys

I was visiting friends in Milwaukee last night, and managed to take a few pics of my old stomping grounds. Sorry about the quality, I got pretty hammered as the night went on, and a lot of the night pics I took turned out a lot blurrier than I thought they would be and had to be dumped :cheers:

http://img40.echo.cx/img40/4811/image53ck.jpg


http://img40.echo.cx/img40/8670/image102of.jpg


http://img40.echo.cx/img40/3134/image111xy.jpg


http://img40.echo.cx/img40/6051/image133jr.jpg


http://img40.echo.cx/img40/2027/image160us.jpg


http://img40.echo.cx/img40/2180/image177nb.jpg


http://img40.echo.cx/img40/376/image190hp.jpg


http://img40.echo.cx/img40/8108/image231tu.jpg
^ I used to live like 4 blocks from here. Brings back memories.


edit- And yeah, once again, Milwaukee cops pulled us over. *sigh* The more things change....

Cheers,
Jai

Well, this is what, the 7th or 8th iteration (i am sure someone is keeping track) along the lines of the former What About Milwaukee? threads, and many of those had way more than 500 replies before being closed. It would hazard that this Milwaukee discussion is definately up there in length with the best of them. And to think, all that discussion, and the only thing interesting going on is the construction of 2 condo towers! Hmmmmmm... :weird: :banana:
Your implication is correct. These "What about Milwaukee" threads have always included anything and everything about Milwaukee. They have never been just about discussions on the latest construction developments but has been a mixture of that plus posting pics (by the way Jai, nice night time shot of the US Bank and eastern skyline!),opinions on what is going on in the city, and well, anything and everything.

As for the history of the "What about Milwaukee" threads I believe we're in the 6th iteration, or generation of the series. The first two made it around 800 posts and the one that was first closed here was well over 1,000, 1400 or 1500?


That doesn't sound like too bad of a setback for the public market. I think interest for it will probably be pretty strong.
Yeah, I probably agree with you on that. I wasn't sure how to word that but I took it as though some would be disappointed in the news.

Well, this is what, the 7th or 8th iteration (i am sure someone is keeping track) along the lines of the former What About Milwaukee? threads


Of course I'm keeping track. ;)

The first WAM started in September of 2001, and ran until SSP changed servers. The second WAM started on the new SSP server, which was INSANELY slow. The slow server helped get users to start visiting the new World Skyscraper Forums, where the third WAM was started (edit: found the old relic on the net by accident...turns out it went to approximately 760 replies.) When WSF became SSC in...like...2002? ish? there was a fourth WAM. Then they closed the WAMmage about a year ago I think, and this is the third "Milwaukee Development News" thread. (That makes this Part 7, actually.)

And yes, I'm still peeved that we're stuck with this boring name. But life goes on, and what's really important is the conversation. So I have only this left to say, after almost four years of The Singular Milwaukee Development Thread: Suck it, Baltimore. ;)

Ah, I forgot about that second WAM thread at the slow SSP. I stand corrected then, this is the 7th Milwaukee thread. Good job CG5!

I will post all I want and I am not Badger. Maybe Eastsider is Denvernative?

negative. that would be pretty crazy though...

Also Jai--
Great pictures, very nice, thanks for sharing those with us.

Awesome pics, Jai, thanks for sharing! I like numero dos the bestest!

The Milwaukee Community Service Corps is planning to renovate the former Kilbourn State Bank (later North Milwaukee State Bank) into a new headquarters for the organization. The small brick building-- prominently located at the intersection of W. Fond du Lac Avenue, N. 27th, and W. Center Streets--has sat vacant and boarded up for many years, in the heart of a predomantly African-American neighborhood.

The Community Service Corps hopes to get the building listed on the National Historic Register--not because of its architectural detailing, but because as North Milwaukee State Bank, it was Wisconsin's largest and first black-owned financial institution. The Community Service Corps. is an organization that helps low-income, at-risk young adults develop job skills while improving neighborhoods through infrastructure and development initiatives.

http://graphics.jsonline.com/graphics/news/img/jun05/kilbourne062505.jpg
^ Work on converting the old bank bulding into offices for the Milwaukee Community Service Corps. is expected to begin in July.

More details in the Journal Sentinel article: Long-neglected building gets attention - Service group plans to use site as headquarters (http://www.jsonline.com/news/metro/jun05/336420.asp)

I really like that building. I drove past a couple weeks ago and was worried they would tear it down. Good news!

Excellent. This intersection needs some help, but has a lot of potential. The WI Black Historical Museum is nearby, and there are a few great old buildings around there.

Watch tomorrow for news and renderings of the Columbia/St. Mary's hospital addition. News conference starts at 1:30. At possibly $500 million the state-of-the-art hospital could reach at most 9 floors.

In other news, 601 Lofts officially broke ground today.

See biztimes.com "breaking news" for sources to both stories.

Hey guys and gals. I've been reading the Milwaukee threads for over a year and a half but finally got around to creating my own username. I've lived in the greater Milwaukee area my whole life (Glendale for 5 years, Cedarburg (blah) since). I'll be a senior at Marquette U. this fall and have always been completely in love with Milwaukee. At school I often find myself strongly defending Milwaukee from out-of-towners who don't realize all it has to offer. Anyway, I don't have any academic background in city planning (am a psych major) but have always been very interested in it and related areas. Hope I can add to some good discussion, bring new viewpoints, etc. By the way, those are some nice pics, Jai.

^nice to have you on the forums.


I like the pics, Jai. I like them very much so.

Mayor Barrett hopes to increase economic development in Milwaukee by doubling the use of tax incremental financing which would help provide funding for several projects around the city. City officials are planning to unveil a list of potential projects that would use TIFs. Some of the likely candidates include: redevelopment of the Tower Automotive site (near N. 35th Street and W. Capitol Drive--which is envisioned as a large-scale neighborhood-oriented mixed-use development, plus some new industrial uses); possible development on greenspace at the Veteran's Administration for a medical technology business park, and the Bronzeville entertainment/cultural district near N. Martin Luther King Drive and W. North Avenue.

Full details in the Business Journal article: Developing a new formula - Barrett to seek doubling of TIF districts (http://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/stories/2005/06/27/story1.html?page=1)


***


Milwaukee's Greyhound bus depot was recently renovated as part of a pilot program initiated with the hope of freshening up the company's image. In addition to an overall interior makeover (new paint, bathroom fixtures, lighting, signage, ticket/luggage counters, vending machines, etc.), the downtown bus depot now features plasma screen TVs, wireless Internet connections, and a brand new concession stand. Not only that, but Greyhound's buses were improved too, with new seats and more legroom. The improvements are part of a test program for Milwaukee, Chicago, and Minneapolis markets.

Despite those renovations, plans are still underway for the eventual relocation of the Greyhound station to a combined bus-train depot at the existing Amtrak station sometime in the coming years. The City, State, developers, Amtrak, and Greyhound are close to an agreement that would more than double the current amount of funding ($4-5 million more than the current $4 million allocated) to create the intermodal passenger station through the use of a tax incremental financing district.

More in this article from the Jounral Sentinel: Greyhound freshens up terminal, adds comfy bus seats - Company still on board for train station (http://www.jsonline.com/bym/news/jun05/336966.asp)


***


On Monday afternoon, KeyBridge development Group broke ground for the 601 Lofts, a 10-story mixed-use building on a surface parking lot at the corner of N. Jackson Street and E. Ogden Avenue. The building will contain 80 condo units (of which 38 are already sold), plus 8300 square feet of street-level retail space (all of which has been leased).

http://www.601lofts.com/images/se_rendering.jpg
^ A rendering of 601 Lofts, at 601 E. Odgen Avenue, now under construction.

In August, KeyBridge expects to break ground for First Place on the River, a 12-story condo building (4 stories of renovated Terminal Storage Building, plus 8 new stories built on top of that) in the Walker's Point neighborhood.

From the Journal Sentinel: Work to start on condos - 10-story building going up on city's east side (http://www.jsonline.com/bym/news/jun05/336956.asp)

601 is seriously hot.


As for Greyhound, you can stick as many damned plasma tv's on the walls as you want, but until I can sit in the station for the half hour before my bus departs without being panhandled five times by four different people, I'm not going to want to spend any more time there.

Looks like in 16 months we will have some pretty nice additions (601 Ogden, First Place on the River, UCT). Good deal, now if City Green would announce a construction timeline soon...

I don't know if this is old or not but I found this rendering on the Columbia St. Mary's Hospital website. There was also an article in the Milwaukee Business Journal website today regarding the planned expansion.

http://graphics.jsonline.com/graphics/bym/img/jun05/colum062905.jpg

Columbia St. Mary's Inc. has unveiled plans to spend $417 million to consolidate its Columbia Hospital and St. Mary's Hospital-Milwaukee campuses by 2010.

Long-awaited details of the new 20-acre hospital campus, to be called Columbia St. Mary's Lake Drive Hospital, were released Tuesday afternoon. The health system is calling it "the largest health care building project in Wisconsin."

http://milwaukee.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/stories/2005/06/27/daily18.html?jst=b_ln_hl

Very nice looking.

Holy crap. So they aren't taking down the undulating Seton Tower? But the glass block is going? That's fine with me.

Looks like all the hospitals in town are gearing up for when the Baby Boomers start needing walkers. St. Luke's expansion on the South Side is huge. You can see it from the left field terrace level at Miller Park. St. Joe's, right down the street from me, underwent a major expansion recently.

Anyone have any renderings of the building CSM will put up on the NW corner of Prospect & North, on the old Heiser Ford site? I saw one in the paper and it looked swell.

I don't know if this is old or not but I found this rendering on the Columbia St. Mary's Hospital website. There was also an article in the Milwaukee Business Journal website today regarding the planned expansion.

Yes, that is a recent rendering of what is supposed to be built.

Anyone have any renderings of the building CSM will put up on the NW corner of Prospect & North, on the old Heiser Ford site? I saw one in the paper and it looked swell.

Prospect Medical Commons...which of course, will have a Whole Foods as a main tenant, plus doctors' offices, and parking garage.

http://graphics.jsonline.com/graphics/bym/img/apr05/wholefoods_rendering_041105_big.jpg

Milwaukeeunseen,

This is now under construction.

http://www.jsonline.com/bym/news/apr05/317234.asp

Yes, that is a recent rendering of what is supposed to be built.



Prospect Medical Commons...which of course, will have a Whole Foods as a main tenant, plus doctors' offices, and parking garage.

http://graphics.jsonline.com/graphics/bym/img/apr05/wholefoods_rendering_041105_big.jpg

Why does it look like a ballpark?

Well, seeing as I worked on the team that designed that building, I can answer that question by telling you that we were aiming for a "ballpark feel" to build upon the fact that Miller Park was built so far from downtown. My team members and I have a taste for irony...the hospital is roughly as far from downtown as Miller, but to the north. We thought that it might be a nice tongue-in-cheek move to design this medical building to resemble a ballpark to help create a new trend -- ballpark-style structures built several miles outside of downtown. We think it's genius. How about you?

Well, seeing as I worked on the team that designed that building, I can answer that question by telling you that we were aiming for a "ballpark feel" to build upon the fact that Miller Park was built so far from downtown. My team members and I have a taste for irony...the hospital is roughly as far from downtown as Miller, but to the north. We thought that it might be a nice tongue-in-cheek move to design this medical building to resemble a ballpark to help create a new trend -- ballpark-style structures built several miles outside of downtown. We think it's genius. How about you?

I think it`s a big waste of precious city land. And you`re trying to set a trend of building more of these? Stupid.

http://graphics.jsonline.com/graphics/bym/img/apr05/wholefoods_rendering_041105_big.jpg

That's awesome. I can't wait until they make Prospect Ave. reflective. I wonder how often they have to clean it?

I think it`s a big waste of precious city land. And you`re trying to set a trend of building more of these? Stupid.

I really hope you don't think he's being serious...

I really hope you don't think he's being serious...

I hope he is kidding.

He is.

I hope he is kidding.

:hahaha:

I think it`s a big waste of precious city land. And you`re trying to set a trend of building more of these? Stupid.

Dude, it's called sarcasm. Lighten up :)

:lol: @CG5

anyway, what corner in the building gonna be on?

Propsect Medical Commons is being built on the northwest corner of Prospect and North. The new Columbia St. Mary's Hospital buildings will be built along the north side of North Avenue, between Prospect and Lake Drive.

Dude, it's called sarcasm. Lighten up :)

:lol: @CG5

anyway, what corner in the building gonna be on?

dude, your sarcasm isn`t funny.

A ballpark and hospital in one.... now there's a great idea. Aging Baby Boomers can watch a Major League Baseball game right from their hospital room. YES! GREAT IDEA! LET'S GET SOMEBODY ON IT NOW!

A ballpark and hospital in one.... now there's a great idea. Aging Baby Boomers can watch a Major League Baseball game right from their hospital room. YES! GREAT IDEA! LET'S GET SOMEBODY ON IT NOW!

WE HAVE A NEW STADIUM!!

HO!HO!HO! JUST A LITTLE SARCASM! LIGHTEN UP!

dude, your sarcasm isn`t funny.

I wasn't being sarcastic, and I wasn't trying to be funny

dude, your sarcasm isn`t funny.

Well that's pretty funny to me, because it looks like you're the only one not laughing, DUDE. Oh, hold on. I'll continue berating you later. I have to take this call. My firm just got tapped to design a stadium-esque nursing home in Bayview.

:bash:

City drops out of top 20

Census estimates Milwaukee lost 3,600 residents in '04

By CHASE DAVIS and RICK ROMELL
cdavis@journalsentinel.com

Posted: June 29, 2005

For the first time since before the Civil War, Milwaukee is not among the 20 largest cities in the United States, according to figures released today by the U.S. Census Bureau.

With southern cities such as Charlotte, N.C., and Fort Worth, Texas, growing into the top 20, Milwaukee's population loss pushed it from the 19th largest U.S. city in 2003 to the 22nd in 2004, reflecting the oft-cited exodus of Northerners to the South.

According to the annual figures, which estimate population each July, Milwaukee's population in 2004 was 583,624, down nearly 3,600 residents from the same time in 2003.

Read the rest of the article here...

http://www.jsonline.com/news/metro/jun05/337561.asp

http://graphics.jsonline.com/graphics/bym/img/jun05/POP30G.gif

Oh well, as long as we still get development here, what is in a ranking? We're still a major city and player even though we're not in the top 20. Stings a little, but we'll get over it. Boston fell out of the top 20 and do people think that isn't a major city? Heck, I'll take Milwaukee any day of the week over Ft. Worth, TX or Charlotte, NC.

I have to take this call. My firm just got tapped to design a stadium-esque nursing home in Bayview.

Now THAT'S what I'm talkin' about. Thinking "outside the box." I'm pumped, people.

http://graphics.jsonline.com/graphics/bym/img/jun05/POP30G.gif



Wow, look at the difference between 1940 to 1980. In 1940 the only Sun Belt city on there was Los Angeles. In 1980 there's a bunch -- Pheonix, San Diego, etc.

What happened to Memphis? It looks like they started to ride the Sun Belt wave, and then dropped out of it.

I wasn't being sarcastic, and I wasn't trying to be funny
You don`t make any sense!

Well that's pretty funny to me, because it looks like you're the only one not laughing, DUDE. Oh, hold on. I'll continue berating you later. I have to take this call. My firm just got tapped to design a stadium-esque nursing home in Bayview.

:bash:

You don`t make any sense either!

Oh well, as long as we still get development here, what is in a ranking? We're still a major city and player even though we're not in the top 20. Stings a little, but we'll get over it. Boston fell out of the top 20 and do people think that isn't a major city? Heck, I'll take Milwaukee any day of the week over Ft. Worth, TX or Charlotte, NC.

That's a great point.

This population decline drives me nuts. I look around and all I see is new development, mainly residential, and somehow this great city continues to bleed. This trend has to be reversed. I took pride in being in the top 20 largest cities.

That's a great point.
Here's another great point. Take a look at some of the cities that haven't been in the top 20 in a long time and some of the cities that are in the top 20 now. For example, I don't know where Minneapolis is on the list, probably 40 or 50th but is anyone going to tell me that El fucking Paso is a top 20 elite city in this country and Minneapolis isn't? El Paso bigger and better than Miami? LOL! I don't think so!

I think the JS article blows this story out of proportion but they do bring up something that really does matter and that is the health of the economy of the metro area and how a stagnant population growth isn't good.

Well that's pretty funny to me, because it looks like you're the only one not laughing, DUDE. Oh, hold on. I'll continue berating you later. I have to take this call. My firm just got tapped to design a stadium-esque nursing home in Bayview.

:bash:
Just because this ballpark esque thing impresses you because it is thinking outside the box doesn`t mean it is not stupid! I`m berating you, you damn fool!

The ballpark is where it is and it is at the place it was always going to be....Get Over It Already! It's a done deal and has been for quite awhile now.

I suppose if I do a few leaps and bounds I could see that rendition of the new medical complex looking like a Miller Park but either way 407, don't you find CG5's comments on it being in the least bit funny? I do, I thought what he said was hilarious! And you know what? That's exactly what he was trying to do....make us laugh. :)

Thanks CG5 for the good laugh!

This population decline drives me nuts. I look around and all I see is new development, mainly residential, and somehow this great city continues to bleed. This trend has to be reversed. I took pride in being in the top 20 largest cities.

I have to believe that this new development has slowed the bleeding.

My advise to you Jeffrey is to not take pride in numbers but in actual quaulity. Milwaukee is building a quaulity city, take pride in that!

For now on always keep in mind that if you want to judge cities by numbers you are then saying that El Paso TX is a better, more important city than Milwaukee. Let the knowledge of that not being true comfort you....

The ballpark is where it is and it is at the place it was always going to be....Get Over It Already! It's a done deal and has been for quite awhile now.

I suppose if I do a few leaps and bounds I could see that rendition of the new medical complex looking like a Miller Park but either way 407, don't you find CG5's comments on it being in the least bit funny? I do, I thought what he said was hilarious! And you know what? That's exactly what he was trying to do....make us laugh. :)

Thanks CG5 for the good laugh!

funy in a weird way.

Well, seeing as I worked on the team that designed that building, I can answer that question by telling you that we were aiming for a "ballpark feel" to build upon the fact that Miller Park was built so far from downtown. My team members and I have a taste for irony...the hospital is roughly as far from downtown as Miller, but to the north. We thought that it might be a nice tongue-in-cheek move to design this medical building to resemble a ballpark to help create a new trend -- ballpark-style structures built several miles outside of downtown. We think it's genius. How about you?

THIS IS HILARIOUS?

THIS IS HILARIOUS?
Um yes, LOL, knowing that the guy hates the idea that the ball park wasn't built downtown he shows all the ear marks of a guy who is still pissed off about it and probably always will be. I don't know, I think it's funny listening to guys throw their fits. CG5 did so as a comedian, I'll give him credit for that.

Um yes, LOL, knowing that the guy hates the idea that the ball park wasn't built downtown he shows all the ear marks of a guy who is still pissed off about it and probably always will be. I don't know, I think it's funny listening to guys throw their fits. CG5 did so as a comedian, I'll give him credit for that.

If you think people like that are funny, then I have to naturally question your credibility about anything.

This article appeared on the online Milwaukee Business Journal Today.

Downtown project gets $7.9 million in state tax credits

An investor group renovating the Alfred Uihlein Building in downtown Milwaukee will receive $7.9 million in state tax credits, Wisconsin Gov. Jim Doyle said Thursday.

Graceville L.L.C. purchased the 48,000-square-foot building at 318 N. Water St. in June 2003 for $2 million. The credits will be used toward renovation costs.

http://milwaukee.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/stories/2005/06/27/daily36.html?jst=b_ln_hl

Does anyone have a picture of this building? I'm assuming it is mostly interior renovation?

Remember everyone, those estimates are just that...ESTIMATES. They've been wrong before, and they could be wrong again. We'll see what happens after the next census.

407--relax, it's just a forum

If you think people like that are funny, then I have to naturally question your credibility about anything.


You are just a fucking carnival, kid. Honestly, we've had some pretty spazz-tastically retarted dumbshits post in the Milwaukee discussions over the years, but you take the cake. So even though you've been asked this by other forumers already, I'd like to make my "request" very explicit: Go The Fuck Away. Stop posting, stop checking the threads, stop everything. And never ever come back. Your particular brand of relentless, post-whorish, humorless asshattery is not appreciated here. So leave. Now. I'll even throw in a "please." And so:

Please go the fuck away.

You are just a fucking carnival, kid. Honestly, we've had some pretty spazz-tastically retarted dumbshits post in the Milwaukee discussions over the years, but you take the cake. So even though you've been asked this by other forumers already, I'd like to make my "request" very explicit: Go The Fuck Away. Stop posting, stop checking the threads, stop everything. And never ever come back. Your particular brand of relentless, post-whorish, humorless asshattery is not appreciated here. So leave. Now. I'll even throw in a "please." And so:

Please go the fuck away.
now THAT is funny :laugh:

Now watch him quote me nine times.

You are just a fucking carnival, kid. Honestly, we've had some pretty spazz-tastically retarted dumbshits post in the Milwaukee discussions over the years, but you take the cake. So even though you've been asked this by other forumers already, I'd like to make my "request" very explicit: Go The Fuck Away. Stop posting, stop checking the threads, stop everything. And never ever come back. Your particular brand of relentless, post-whorish, humorless asshattery is not appreciated here. So leave. Now. I'll even throw in a "please." And so:

Please go the fuck away.

Since I'm on an "only reply with smilies" kick right now... all I have to say is: :applause:

You are just a fucking carnival, kid. Honestly, we've had some pretty spazz-tastically retarted dumbshits post in the Milwaukee discussions over the years, but you take the cake. So even though you've been asked this by other forumers already, I'd like to make my "request" very explicit: Go The Fuck Away. Stop posting, stop checking the threads, stop everything. And never ever come back. Your particular brand of relentless, post-whorish, humorless asshattery is not appreciated here. So leave. Now. I'll even throw in a "please." And so:

Please go the fuck away.

No, you go the fuck away moron!!!!!!!!!!

Now watch him quote me nine times.

Your so sick in the mind you don`t even realize it! You think your so right!
Right about what? I`m sick of your negative energy.

^I thought it was funny CG5! I ACTUALLY GOT IT, TOO! :)

Your so sick in the mind you don`t even realize it! You think your so right!
Right about what? I`m sick of your negative energy.


oh wait, damn I just read the last page of this thread.


407, I gotta echo citygawd's sentiments on this one...you're a throwback to the BrewCity days. And dass not a good thing. But I think the eloquent CG5 said it best. In fact, just reread his post. 10 times.

Your so sick in the mind you don`t even realize it! You think your so right!
Right about what? I`m sick of your negative energy.


Oh man, come on. Please tell me that this is someone's alter ego. That was a little too poorly worded for me to buy.

Oh man, come on. Please tell me that this is someone's alter ego. That was a little too poorly worded for me to buy.

What is it that you don`t buy?

Can we PLEASE get back to discussing Milwaukee Development?!?!? :moods:


anyway, screw those city population numbers! What REALLY matters is the METRO population. Here's an example(these are numbers from the 2000 census), check out the ones in bold:

Metro - City Limits


Atlanta - 4,112,198 - 416,474

Boston 5,819,100 - 589,141

Cincinnati 1,979,202 - 331,285

Cleveland 2,945,831 - 478,403

Denver 2,581,506 - 554,636

Hartford 1,183,110 - 121,578

Las Vegas 1,563,282 - 478,434

Memphis 1,135,614 - 650,100

Miami 3,876,380 - 362,470

Milwaukee 1,689,572 - 596,794

Minneapolis--St. Paul 2,968,806 - 669,769

Nashville 1,231,311 - 545,524

New Orleans 1,337,726 - 484,674

Orlando 1,644,561 - 185,951

Pittsburgh 2,358,695 - 334,563

Providence 1,188,613 173,618

San Francisco--Oakland--San Jose, CA CMSA 7,039,362 - 776,733 WOW!

Seattle 3,554,760 - 563,374

St. Louis 2,603,607 - 348,189

Tampa 2,395,997 - 551,679



Notice how cities like Boston, Seattle, Atlanta, St. Louis, San Fran, and Miami get more national praise than Milwaukee even though they are smaller cities? This shows that (in most cases) a city of 300,000+ needs metro of around 2 million.

But, this isn't always the case. New Orleans, Memphis and Vegas have metros of less than 2 million people, but they're still pretty popular cities.



My point is, this population decline that Milwaukee is experiencing(sp?) isn't hurting the city as much as it looks like it is. Our metro population is growing; slowly, but it IS growing. And even if it doesn't reach 2 million, just look at New Orleans, Memphis and Vegas.


So, I'm still feeling very optimistic about Milwaukee and the way it's developing. :)

While I was initially somewhat bummed to see that we dropped out of the top 20, I'm realizing that it's not as bad as the Journal-Sentinel article makes it sound. For example, their graph shows that Milwaukee's population dropped from around 628,000 in 1990 to around 597,000 in 2000, a decline of 31,000. It is estimated that the population in 2004 was about 584,000. If that trend would continue to 2010, the population would sit at maybe 571,000, a drop of 26,000 (compared to a drop of 31,000 from the 10 years before). Ok, so I guess I'm muddying everything with too many numbers but from where I see it, the population loss seems to be starting to level off and hopefully sooner than later we will be back on the upswing. It is somewhat disparaging to see that the metro area ranked near-last out of the 43 largest in population gain in recent years. Yet, I still feel that the metro area is going in the right direction contrary to what some numbers might claim. Any thoughts?

So I apologize because I just realized that there has already been some discussion on here regarding the population figures. I just didn't notice it as 407's ridiculous rantings were crowding everything else out. Neph, I definitely have to agree that the quality of a city is paramount. Reckless and poorly thought out growth is obviously not a good thing. Also, regarding the whole quality versus quantity thing, this is where I disagree with many who always complain on here about the downtown skyline. A downtown can have a great skyline and not much else. Milwaukee just seems to have a poorer skyline because it it much more spread out in relation to the buildings. Also, coming from the south, everything seems much shorter because of being many feet up on the highrise. Heck, there's the valley revitalization, the third ward is buzzing with development and renovation as usual, lots of dev't proposed for the lower east side, always increasing flavor and more life in the general downtown area, etc. I love it... that's more important than a huge skyline.

Also, regarding the whole quality versus quantity thing, this is where I disagree with many who always complain on here about the downtown skyline. A downtown can have a great skyline and not much else. Milwaukee just seems to have a poorer skyline because it it much more spread out in relation to the buildings. Also, coming from the south, everything seems much shorter because of being many feet up on the highrise. Heck, there's the valley revitalization, the third ward is buzzing with development and renovation as usual, lots of dev't proposed for the lower east side, always increasing flavor and more life in the general downtown area, etc. I love it... that's more important than a huge skyline.

I agree. Correct me if I'm wrong, but DC doesn't have a skyline.

But then again, Baltimore does, so....


But that doesn't even matter because DC is still a great city.

Yet, I still feel that the metro area is going in the right direction contrary to what some numbers might claim. Any thoughts?
Hi MarquetteHoops

Although the metro hasn't lost population at all, the gains are very small and it's been that way for a long time. At about the same time the city started to lose population the metro pop. became stagnant. You say you feel the metro is going in the right direction but it's going in that direction at the same speed it has been going for the last 40 years or so. Although I believe the JS article blew this story out of proportion I do believe they were right on when talking about the stagnant growth of the metro.

These recent numbers suggest to me that people are not only leaveing the city but also moving out of the metro. The 3,000 to 4,000 people added a year can easily be explained as the birth to death ratio as evidence shows that in the last several decades you will always have more births than deaths. I'm not saying people are leaving in droves because they're not, at least not anymore. The flood gates have been closed but there still seems to be a trickling effect.

So my thoughts are that the Milwaukee metro still has a problem with retaining people. Creating a vibrant downtown and vicinity is a good start to retaining some of these people, along with restoreing the inner city which Milwaukee has been working on but it isn't the whole answer. I believe you also have to have the jobs here to convince people to not only stay here but to convince people to come live here. As we all know, Milwaukee is doing a great job at creating a vibrant city but in my opinion more has to be done in the area of job creation.

If you think I'm being a pessimist, I'm not. I am very optimistic when it comes to Milwaukee's future growth. I do believe that this city will once again thrive in all areas. It wont ever become a "boomtown" but I do believe it will experience some healthy growth.

Those are my opinions...feel free to pick them apart :)

As far as the article, it points out that the state figures and U.S. Census estimates are different - so I'm not sure if you ever will truly get an accurate population figure for Milwaukee or anywhere else it seems.

The development we are seeing downtown, mainly residential, is great but it is geared for empty nesters and young professionals - not really large families. So every family of 4 or 5 you lose to the burbs, you may be only gaining an older couple of 2 or a single person to replace them. It slows the total loss, but multiply that over and over again and you see the point that I'm trying to make. In addition, the condos aren't going up fast enough to keep up with the older stock of somes that are becoming dilapatated and unlivable within the City. There has only been little pockets of reinvestment in some of these neighborhoods, which could be great again - but these homes will not last forever if not maintained or reinvested in.

I think a healthy city center is really attractive, but will that alone make people move back to the city itself, and not just in the downtown area? Unless you have a ton of money to live on the east side and want to own your own home, probably not. MPS needs to show significant improvement as well as this whole fear of the city and crime thing.

When I lived in Milwuakee and went to school at UWM - I was twice involved in attempted muggings (once at gun point), had my car broken into twice and these events were on Prospect Avenue (near the Vox), downtown near NWML, and at the Rave. I'll give you the Rave as a mulligan - but the other two areas don't seem to me to be too scary. Crime will happen anywhere - but people's perception is that the burbs are safer. It's an image thing that needs to be worked on as well. I don't think that people seeing multi-million dollar condos being snatched up in groves alone will make them want to move back to the City again.

There needs to be a lot of reinvestment in Milwaukee (not only the downtown) which will help that along. We're seeing a lot of progress. A lot of other Midwestern cities would kill for the kind of progess we've had in the last couple of years. Milwaukee is a great City, could be better - but at least it is showing signs of improvement.

I'll move back when I can get a job in my field up there. Until then - I tell everyone in Texas - that Milwaukee has way more life and energy than big "D".

I try to avoid the drama, but have some f*cking respect for CG5, 40748246. He's been around longer than most of us and is so knowledgeable, we're lucky to even have him--and Mark and milwaukeeunseen--around here. They're all gems. When they speak, pay attention. You'll learn something.

I've been out all night, and I'm going to sleep. I'm looking forward to reading this thread tomorrow.

As far as the article, it points out that the state figures and U.S. Census estimates are different - so I'm not sure if you ever will truly get an accurate population figure for Milwaukee or anywhere else it seems.

The development we are seeing downtown, mainly residential, is great but it is geared for empty nesters and young professionals - not really large families. So every family of 4 or 5 you lose to the burbs, you may be only gaining an older couple of 2 or a single person to replace them. It slows the total loss, but multiply that over and over again and you see the point that I'm trying to make. In addition, the condos aren't going up fast enough to keep up with the older stock of somes that are becoming dilapatated and unlivable within the City. There has only been little pockets of reinvestment in some of these neighborhoods, which could be great again - but these homes will not last forever if not maintained or reinvested in.

I think a healthy city center is really attractive, but will that alone make people move back to the city itself, and not just in the downtown area? Unless you have a ton of money to live on the east side and want to own your own home, probably not. MPS needs to show significant improvement as well as this whole fear of the city and crime thing.

When I lived in Milwuakee and went to school at UWM - I was twice involved in attempted muggings (once at gun point), had my car broken into twice and these events were on Prospect Avenue (near the Vox), downtown near NWML, and at the Rave. I'll give you the Rave as a mulligan - but the other two areas don't seem to me to be too scary. Crime will happen anywhere - but people's perception is that the burbs are safer. It's an image thing that needs to be worked on as well. I don't think that people seeing multi-million dollar condos being snatched up in groves alone will make them want to move back to the City again.

There needs to be a lot of reinvestment in Milwaukee (not only the downtown) which will help that along. We're seeing a lot of progress. A lot of other Midwestern cities would kill for the kind of progess we've had in the last couple of years. Milwaukee is a great City, could be better - but at least it is showing signs of improvement.

I'll move back when I can get a job in my field up there. Until then - I tell everyone in Texas - that Milwaukee has way more life and energy than big "D".

10 years ago we were losing people of almost every income bracket -- except the lowest income. Now we are retaining the higher income people, and bringing more in, and of course retaining the lower income people, who stay in their neighborhoods usually not out of choice but neccessity.

We're still losing the people in the middle. These are the folks that can't afford private schools for three kids, but could manage to afford a house in Greenfield or Brown Deer. They're choosing a (supposedly) better school system, and the mechanism by which they choose a better school for their child is through purchacing a house in a suburb.

One of the most promising things about School Choice is that it could, if it blossoms into its fullest potential, break that link between house-purchace and choice of school. A middle income family could stay put in their Milwaukee neighborhood and could still choose a better school for their kids.

Of course other things need to happen -- such as improved neighborhoods overall. I think we're making great progress on that front. Crime is down in Milwaukee, despite what you may infer from the local TV "news", and new development is occuring in parts of the City that have been dormant for 30 years. New development and renovations of older buildings do a lot to counter the overwhelming negativity in many Milwaukee neighborhoods. Look at King Drive between Walnut and North Ave, for example. I don't think you'd see Brewers Hill happen the way it has if King Drive were still all board ups, vacant lots, and grafitti.

So if we can create a "perfect storm" of better schools and more attractive neighborhoods, we can retain that middle class.

Interesting news on the Pabst City development front today...

-By Tom Daykin - Milwaukee Journal

The downtown movie theater at the proposed PabstCity entertainment and retail complex would be operated by Milwaukee-based Marcus Corp. (MCS), the area’s largest cinema owner, and not an independent Pittsburgh operator as originally planned.

City officials, joined by executives from PabstCity developer Wispark LLC and Marcus, are scheduled to make the announcement at 10:30 a.m. today at the former Pabst brewery. The theater, reportedly with around 10 screens, would be among the planned main attractions at PabstCity, a $317 million development that would transform the former brewery into entertainment venues, restaurants, night clubs, stores, housing and offices.

The announcement of Marcus’ involvement could give the controversial project a big boost of credibility heading into next Wednesday’s Common Council vote on a proposed $41 million city financing package for PabstCity.

PabstCity’s supporters say the project would preserve some of the brewery’s historic buildings, create 1,100 jobs within its businesses and generate $2.7 million of annual property tax revenue. The development’s property taxes would pay off the $41 million city subsidy, along with $38 million of interest payments, within an estimated 24 to 30 years. Once the $79 million is paid off, tax revenue would flow to the city, Milwaukee Public Schools and other local governments.

Opponents, however, have raised questions about whether the project would be viable in the long term, and whether its benefits would be as big as touted by Wispark and its partners. The addition of Marcus, which owns around two-thirds of the Milwaukee area’s theater screens, could help address those concerns and persuade more aldermen to support the city subsidy.

Wispark, a subsidiary of Wisconsin Energy Corp., announced a year ago that PabstCity would include a 16-screen theater operated by Pittsburgh-based Jenco Cinemas LP, a small firm owned by theater industry veteran Jeffrey Lewine. PabstCity landed Lewine after being rebuffed by Marcus and other larger theater chains.

Marcus a year ago declined to say why it decided against operating a theater at PabstCity. However, Wispark officials said a concern for Marcus was the development’s location near the central city. The PabstCity theater, overlooking I-43 and W. Winnebago St., will likely draw patrons from the central city, as well as from other areas.

There was also an article in the Milwaukee Business Journal

http://milwaukee.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/stories/2005/06/27/daily41.html?jst=b_ln_hl

In Milwaukee's metro area population stats I have seen a metro area population as low as 1,580,000 or abouts to as high as 1,720.000 or there abouts I guess it really depends on if Milwaukee is counted as a 4 county metro area ( Milwaukee, Waukesha, Washington, & Ozaukee counties). or a five county metro if you add in Racine county with the four counties mentioned. What I see as Milwaukee metro area lack of significant growth is that 2 of the major metro area's next to Wisconsin ( Chicago Illinois & Twin Cities Minnesota) are both growing at a rate of more than 10% plus while Milwaukee's growth rate is under 5%. Really it wasn't such a long time ago when the Twin cities metro area population (1970"s) was maybe 100,000 to 200,000 more than Milwaukee's metro area's population. I will say some growth is better than a loss of population like Buffalo, NY and others that will remain unnamed. Where Milwaukee will feel this lack of major growth is the amount of congressional influence that city has in getting some of the proposed transportation and inferstructure projects that may need to remain competitive.

Madison added more people than Milwaukee county, it seems...

According to the annual U.S. Census figures, which estimate population each July, Milwaukee's population in 2004 was 583,624, down nearly 3,600 residents from the same time in 2003.

If you look at the Demographic Services Center of the Wisconsin Department of Administration numbers, it lists the estimates as of 1/1/03 as follows:

Milwaukee, City - 595,245 losing 1,729 residents from the 2000 Census
Milwaukee, County - 941,301 adding 1,137 residents from the 2000 Census

So it really goes by who you follow and think is more accurate. In this instance it looks like there is about a 8,000 +/- difference between the U.S. Census estimate and the Wisconsin DOA estimate. That's a significant oops to me. I mean, I would notice if $8,000 was missing out of my bank account.

Coincidentally, we were having the same discussion about Census Bureau vs. Wisconsin Dept. of Admin. esitimates the other day in the Detroit vs. Milwaukee thread just a few days ago, before the latest estimates from the Census were released. Of course, the discrepancies are due to using different criteria, calculations, and methodologies. I would tend to think the WisDOA's estimates are more accurate because they are able to keep a better "pulse on Milwaukee," (and Wisconsin) so to speak, than the Census Bureau.

If you look at the Demographic Services Center of the Wisconsin Department of Administration numbers, it lists the estimates as of 1/1/03 as follows:

Milwaukee, City - 595,245 losing 1,729 residents from the 2000 Census
Milwaukee, County - 941,301 adding 1,137 residents from the 2000 Census

And the estimates as of 1/1/04 as follows:

Milwaukee, City - 593,920
Milwaukee, County - 939,358

The WisDOA usually releases its population estimates sometime around August/September, so we should be hearing new figures from them in a few weeks.

The news about Marcus Corp. taking over the proposed theater operations at PabstCity is interesting, especially considering they were so uninterested in it before. It seems to be quite a remarkable coincidence that all of a sudden they changed their minds, in the midst of all the public controversey, and right before City leaders are scheduled to make a decision on the TIF that would supposedly make or break the whole project. On the plus side, it is good that Marcus finally wised-up and decided as a locally-based company that it would support a hometown downtown theater. On the minus side, well, its still has all the same minuses as we discussed before.

Hey Neph, I wouldn't say that you're being pessimistic at all. I definitely agree that job creation and retention is really important to get the city and area back on that right track. That's one reason why I agree with Markitect that the valley should be geared mainly towards industry/light manufacturing instead of primarily commercial because of the large number of jobs that it would create. I think that education needs to improve a lot as well and I don't really know how one would go about starting to fix the MPS system...

The news about Marcus Corp. taking over the proposed theater operations at PabstCity is interesting, especially considering they were so uninterested in it before. It seems to be quite a remarkable coincidence that all of a sudden they changed their minds, in the midst of all the public controversey, and right before City leaders are scheduled to make a decision on the TIF that would supposedly make or break the whole project.

You beat me to it. I'm also miffed by the fact that the Pittsburgh-based company, whose head honcho seemed so excited about the project that I can remember his enthusiasm months after reading a j-s article, dropped out so quietly.

So after decades of blowing off the downtown market, Marcus is on board? Okaaaaaay.

Someone kill it. Just kill it. I'd rather have the buildings fall over on their own in 20 years than have to admit that the city let more than two thirds of the complex be torn down for a Marcus and a House of Blues in the middle of nowhere. I know it sounds nimby, but seriously...there comes a time when a promising project just goes sour, and you have to stop pining for what might have been and start trying to save what you already have. Keep the buildings until there's a competent developer willing to turn Pabst into a complex that actually works. Right now the cost is just too high.

You beat me to it. I'm also miffed by the fact that the Pittsburgh-based company, whose head honcho seemed so excited about the project that I can remember his enthusiasm months after reading a j-s article, dropped out so quietly.

So after decades of blowing off the downtown market, Marcus is on board? Okaaaaaay.

The Pittsburgh-based company (Jenco Cinemas) did not actually "drop out" of the project; they were replaced via a substitution clause in the agreement they had with PC developers. Jenco had always been interested in doing the movie theater, and they believed in it, but PC developers decided to drop them after Marcus expressed an interest.

Marcus' newfound interest for a PabstCity theater (after initially rejecting the idea when it originally came up) was based on the results of the market study they were conducting. No doubt, their interest was piqued even more when PC developers decided to downsize the theater after the consultant's report suggested 16 screens was overkill. Another thing that helped the guys at Marcus change their minds was the extent to which the City has been committed to moving forward with PabstCity.

Basically, I think it is now or never for Pabst City. The longer they/we wait, the buildings will more than likely continue to deteriorate to the point where they will not be able to be renovated or saved. Losing a "BIG" part of Milwaukee history may be a bigger travesty than PC itself.

Maybe it is good that a local company is expressing interest, in Marcus. That may be signs that PC will actually become a reality and we won't have to keep talking about the potential problems if it were to become a reality and start talking about the exisiting problems and what if's when it opens (J/K - I hope)...

I understand the negative issues and the amount that the City has to put up to help the developers, but has anyone else come forward and said they can do this without the extra help??? I know there is probably an exclusive clause built in for WISPARK to develop this area - but what our the other options? What would we like to see if not what they proposed? I'd be interested to get others opinions on that question. I mean, we need additional retail, commercial oppurtunities in the downtown area. Industrial will not fit in this area. So what?

Saving some history may be better than none. Besides rich condo people need to have a place to go see a movie and catch some band that they could see at the Rave. But why go there???

Thanks for clarifying that, Markitect. I just remember the Jenco guy who was quoted in the paper (was he the CEO? I can't remember his title) sounding really optimistic...he was excited about entering the market. And my main problem with Marcus taking over is that it's yet another sign of the insular market in this area. It seems like major retailers/entertainment venues/etc. rarely enter the market...Jenco giving Marcus some competition would have been nice. Now it's just the same old thing. And yes, a multiplex is a multiplex is a multiplex. They're all run by megachains. Still, it was symbolic of a major company from another area showing interest in Milwaukee, which was good to see.

What would we like to see if not what they proposed?

I would like to see them propose not to tear the complex apart to such an extent that it actually loses its historical status. They're keeping a whopping 8 out of 28 buildings. And they're probably going to clean the buildings they're keeping to thei point where the whole thing looks like Milwaukee: The Disney Experience.

I would also like to see them retain more than 8 out of 28 buildings (as would everyone else I'm sure). Personally, I feel that it would make more sense making PabstCity mainly offices and residential. It would be nice to see more affordable housing there but I suppose that the high costs of renovation wouldn't allow that. Being a student at Marquette, I'd like to say that our students would put some dollars into commercial/entertainment at PabstCity but I can't speak for everyone else that goes there and it still wouldn't be enough to support such a major endeavor. There wouldn't be anything wrong with some stuff geared towards entertainment but certainly not on the level that they envision.

And my main problem with Marcus taking over is that it's yet another sign of the insular market in this area. It seems like major retailers/entertainment venues/etc. rarely enter the market...Jenco giving Marcus some competition would have been nice. Now it's just the same old thing. And yes, a multiplex is a multiplex is a multiplex. They're all run by megachains. Still, it was symbolic of a major company from another area showing interest in Milwaukee, which was good to see.

Yeah, hear ya on the new competition angle.

Even better would have been the combination cineplex/hotel tower, operated by some newcommer, on the empty lot at 4th and Wisconsin--right across from the Marcus-operated Hilton...that would have been a nice one-two punch at Marcus, right on their home turf!

And I still think places along Wisconsin Avenue and Water Street/RiverWalk would be better for some of the entertainment-oriented uses proposed for PabstCity like the movie theater (regardless of Marcus Corp. now on board for PC) and House of Blues.

I've mentioned before about how I'd rather see PabstCity developed more toward office, residential, and neighborhood retail use. Some of the Milwaukee County offices would make a great anchor tenant. We know County Exec. Walker has mentioned the idea. Not only is PC close enough to the rest of the main County buildings, but it would be a good place to relocate the office space contained within the crumbling Courthouse Annex which Walker wants to demolish. Another piece falls into the puzzle...

A few months ago there was an article mentioning how MATC was looking into the idea of perhaps starting some student housing. MATC is right across the street from PC. There was also another atcile a while back about a developer who was interested in convertin some older industrial buildings in the Third Ward into off-campus student housing that could be shared among the different universities. PabstCity could also be an ideal location for such an endeavor, especially with Marquette University just a few blocks away. Another puzzle piece...

Mix in some non-student housing in there as well, which could be either upscale condo type stuff or perhaps even something more affordable, yet good quality, for lower-income households (like the stuff Gorman has done with various former industrial and commerical buildings around town).

All those offices and residences are a built in demand for neighborhood-oriented retail and restaurants. This could range from simple stuff lke laundromats/dry cleaners, coffee shops, specialty retailers, grocery/convenience stores to a couple of "destination" type places as well, like the brewpub/beer garden/Hofbrauhaus, plus the Museum of Beer and Brewing.

Some of those ideas probably are doable in some of those old buildings--not without major alterations, but perhaps at least more of the complex could be retained. And again, some of the buildings aren't all that historically or architecturally significant, so those would still come down and be replaced with something else. Even the concrete grain silos could be reused, with a little creativity and good planning (such buildings have been converted into new uses in other cities--there's a hotel in Akron, Ohio that was built into an old grain silo...which was also an idea that was kicked around for the old Schlitz/Pillsbury silos that stood up in Glendale (only that idea was for condos) before that was demolished).

No doubt some of this stuff is a bit out-of-the-box thinking, or perceived as "too risky," but I think they offer something a little bit better than the Super Happy Fun Carnival Land place currently envisioned for PabstCity.

Again, I'll make reference to the vision outlined on the old http://www.brewcity.net/index1.html (www.brewcity.net) website, which was used by Haertel and friends, as the original pitch for what has become PabstCity. They promoted that vision to attract other investors and developers (ones with more money and experience to join them in a partnership) to the project. It was somewhat crude and vague, but it wasn't theme parkish either.

but I think they offer something a little bit better than the Super Happy Fun Carnival Land place currently envisioned for PabstCity.

I always look forward to the times when you bust out that sense of humor we all know you have. ;) This had me laughing for a good solid minute.

Is it just me or aren't they proposing offices, housing, retail as part of Pabst City and not just the entertainment venues that are mainly discussed here???

It's not like they have set the prices of the condo's yet or apartments yet so it doesn't rule out any income bracket at this point, or signed any office tenants, - so all the possibilities are still out there for some of these things to happen.

The major tenants like Sega, HOB, and the Marcus are needed to get the other parts to fall into place. If someone renovated an older building into condos right in the heart of where PC is right now, how successful would it be with alsmot nothing around it? Probably not very.

Just a thought.

After reading this forum for about four months, I can finally agree with CG5 and Markitect, the term "insular" is very apt, having one firm control the hotel business in Milwaukee with the ownership of three major hotels is not good, and I, too, would like to see some competition at either the 4th & Wisconsin site, or the Lake Point Tower if that ever develops. The same is true for the cinema busines, I understand that right now, they control 70% of this business in the metro area.

As for PC, I suppose you could take the position that doing something is better than having the buildings rot, but it appears to me the location is not right for this kind of venue, the area is sort of insulated from downtown, you would almost have to have some form of mass transit to pick up the convention and other downtown business. I think it would be a lot better to have a complex like the old Schlitz area was developed into, with the addition of condos.

Markitect. I really wish the civic leadership would recognize the error in facilitating the spreading of retail, entertainment and cultural functions all over the downtown and nearby neighborhoods instead of integrating them in already semi developed retail or entertainment districts that are already fixtures in the developing urban fabric of the cbd. There is no substitution for the synergies created by agglomerating mutually beneficial functions next to each other. Instead of creating competing destinations we should be doing everything we can to augment the existing ones. As a sidenote, I'd be really interested in knowing what tipped the scales for Marcus to decide to join the project. They've been pretty outspoken on their criticism of a downtown cinema in the past. Given their presence in the market they had to have researched the viability of a downtown cinema long before PC ever came up.

Is it just me or aren't they proposing offices, housing, retail as part of Pabst City and not just the entertainment venues that are mainly discussed here???

It's not like they have set the prices of the condo's yet or apartments yet so it doesn't rule out any income bracket at this point, or signed any office tenants, - so all the possibilities are still out there for some of these things to happen.

Yes, there are offices and residential components being developed for PabstCity, and yeah, some of the things others of us here have brought up as far as non-entertainment uses probably will become reality. But we rarely hear about them as they are always overshadowed by the more controversial entertainment stuff.

Still, it woud be nice to know more details about those other components, other than the bullet point list of square footages that are mentioned for them every once in a while. Do the developers have some office tenants lined up on their super secret list of tenants? Are they looking at developing office space for large firms, or something more in line for several smaller firms, professional offices, etc?

I brought up the idea of moving some of the County office there because it's been mentioned in the newspapers before...and a move like that seems like a no-brainer to me, killing several birds with one stone (the need for consolidating government office space, boosting up a major downtown development by being a major anchor tenant with long-range staying power, the desire to vacate/demolish the ailing Courthouse Annex, there was also some talk a while back about the Coutny vacating and/or rebuilding one of its buildings on MacArthur Square...all of that could be tied into PabstCity in some way).

The major tenants like Sega, HOB, and the Marcus are needed to get the other parts to fall into place. If someone renovated an older building into condos right in the heart of where PC is right now, how successful would it be with alsmot nothing around it? Probably not very.

Just a thought.

How many renovated older buildings around town have been successful without being immediately adjacent to a multi-screen movie theater, concert venue, or theme restaurants?

How many renovated older buildings around town have been successful without being immediately adjacent to a multi-screen movie theater, concert venue, or theme restaurants?

I understand your point, but the focus is on PC not other parts of town.

Why is the Third Ward considered successful? Because the condo development started first and then small artist studios, interesting restaurant and bar choices, unique retail store and what not found there way there. A new way of living was introduced that much of the Milwaukee area was not used to having the choice of.

I'm sure it was met with opposition in its initial redevelopment stages because you were taking an area away that served as a heavy manufacturing district in the river and lake region near downtown and the port. Take that away and you never get it back because who wants to live right next to a factory? But that success in the 3rd Ward and now in the 5th Ward, it didn't happen over night.

And it may have even looked detached from downtown when redevelopment first started there. Who wants to go to the Ale House - it's so detached from downtown by 794? But with the combination of residents and traffic from other business and offices in the area, it found probably even more traffic generated.

If you, as a developer, have an oppurtunity to kick start a development with 3 major entertainment venues, the other uses will more than likely follow (mainly retail and residential first) but it isn't guaranteed. Office space being difficult to sell or lease is always a weird market.

Working in the field, it is very nice to support things you know every detail about, but that doesn't always happen and the elected officials need to take a stand one way or the other and hope for the best with all of the information they have. If they want more information, they can ask for it.

We (the city I work for) just put a lot of financial backing into a huge retail/office/hotel and conference center as the gateway to our city. There is about 300,000 square feet of office space that is planned and were no announced tenants prior to approval. Once the project was approved, even with the soft office market we have, 100,000 square feet was pre-leased a day after the project. I'm not saying that's how it will happen in the PC case. But sometimes, it does. Does that make it any more right or wrong - no. Any less right or wrong - no.

So - I guess my thought is go for it Milwaukee. In 30 years it may look like the best decision ever. Or not...

So - I guess my thought is go for it Milwaukee. In 30 years it may look like the best decision ever. Or not...
Ha ha, this is such a great statement I can't let it go without being seen.

This is what I've been saying for the last 4 or 5 years! The attitudes of the people of Milwaukee are changing. What we see now isn't the "Milwaukee Sucks" mentality but the "Lets go for it mentality" The "Milwaukee Sucks": mentality is still here but it is steadily being washed away by optimism and what's more important, the evidence of that optimism!

Let me parrot that remark: go for it Milwaukee!

[QUOTE=Markitect]Yeah, hear ya on the new competition angle.

And I still think places along Wisconsin Avenue and Water Street/RiverWalk would be better for some of the entertainment-oriented uses proposed for PabstCity like the movie theater (regardless of Marcus Corp. now on board for PC) and House of Blues.

I've mentioned before about how I'd rather see PabstCity developed more toward office, residential, and neighborhood retail use. Some of the Milwaukee County offices would make a great anchor tenant. We know County Exec. Walker has mentioned the idea. Not only is PC close enough to the rest of the main County buildings, but it would be a good place to relocate the office space contained within the crumbling Courthouse Annex which Walker wants to demolish. Another piece falls into the puzzle...


Thank you. My thoughts exactly. I walked around the Marquette Interchange and PC area today. A couple thoughts. I haven't been around around PC in a while, and I kind forgot what the area looks like, and what's around. I was amazed because the area was worse than I had pictured in my mind. It is completely dead. There is zero retail, restaurantes, or housing down there. All it basically is MATC and county buildings. It just confirms my feelings that the PC site would be best used for office, residential, and parking. I don't see why Wispark wouldn't be happy doing that type of development. I bet the city would give them TIF in a second if they pitched a less risky development that would have affordable housing, parking, and jobs from office development. For the neighbors PC has (the county buildings, MATC, and a freeway) a much less risky development makes more sense. I'm all for Sega, downtown theatre, and HOB, but put them somewhere I want to go. As a resident of the city, I want more bars, clubs, restaurantes, in the places I go and like, such as Milwaukee St, North, Water St, third/fifth ward. There is plenty of room to add more places in those areas. I don't want to go to the fringe of downtown, in an artificial Super Happy Fun Carnival Land, as you aptly put it. Another thought was that the court house annex REALLY is crumbling, and has to go. When you look st closely, you see how bad it looks. I say put the replacement ramp in PC. Finally, the Interchange is making progress. Kilbourne exit is open again and the Wells street bridge is now open. It also looks like they will be painting all the decorated concrete in a beige/tan type of color. It looks acceptable, better than what we had, but not going to blow away anyone.

oh wait, damn I just read the last page of this thread.


407, I gotta echo citygawd's sentiments on this one...you're a throwback to the BrewCity days. And dass not a good thing. But I think the eloquent CG5 said it best. In fact, just reread his post. 10 times.

You fruit!

Why is the Third Ward considered successful? Because the condo development started first and then small artist studios, interesting restaurant and bar choices, unique retail store and what not found there way there. A new way of living was introduced that much of the Milwaukee area was not used to having the choice of.

I'm sure it was met with opposition in its initial redevelopment stages because you were taking an area away that served as a heavy manufacturing district in the river and lake region near downtown and the port. Take that away and you never get it back because who wants to live right next to a factory? But that success in the 3rd Ward and now in the 5th Ward, it didn't happen over night.

Of course the success of the Third Ward didn't happen over night...it was a gradual, organic process--and completely opposite of PabstCity. By the way, your stages of evolution are a bit mixed up: the modest artist lofts and studios came along first (with a boost from the Milwaukee Institute of Art and Design which decided to open up its school there), much of which was done by individual building owners and small-time developers, all of it coexisting side-by-side with operating warehouses and factories. Then came some of the smaller office, restaurants, and retail stuff. And then after that, in came the big-name devlopers with the high-end condo and retail conversions and new construction projects occupying entire blocks. So there is a major difference between what happened to the Third Ward, and is currently happening to Walker's Point (I refuse to use the characterless, unoriginal "Fifth Ward" label for that neighborhood!) and what is proposed to happen with PabstCity.

Another big difference between the two is that the Third Ward was very much a piecemeal effort--many different projects, going on at different times, done by different people. PabstCity is completely obviously completely opposite--a mega-project, on a mega-site, from a collaboration between mega-developers. That's why, when we were talking about PabstCity a few weeks back, I mentioned taking a look at how the Blatz and Schlitz breweries were revitalized. They make a better comparison for PC than the Third Ward, because they share many of the same basic mega-characteristics.

By the way, 407, Fiddler, CG5, and pals...if you find it absolutely necessary to continue your jackassery, take it to private messaging, email, phone conversations, group meetings, or a pen-pal letter-writing campaign--I don't care which, I don't care who started it, I don't care what you think of each other--just keep it out of this and any other threads, past, present, and future.

Thanks.

You know, I've edited my response to that several times, and as far as I'm concerned, you can just get off your high, mighty horse. I think that's all I really have to say.


Oh -- thanks.

An article in the JS Online this morning states that the vote for PC is too close to call, but most would be leaning towards a "yes" vote. Of course that could change when the time actually comes to vote.

PabstCity financing vote too close to call

Common Council members divided on whether to back $41 million in public financing for project

By TOM DAYKIN

An upcoming vote by the Milwaukee Common Council on providing $41 million of public financing for the PabstCity project appears too close to call, according to interviews with aldermen and lobbyists.

PabstCity Vote

What's Next
The Common Council's Zoning, Neighborhoods and Development Committee meets at 1:30 p.m. Tuesday at City Hall to consider a recommendation to the full council on the proposed PabstCity financing package.

A majority of aldermen on the 15-member council are leaning toward a "yes" vote for the subsidy, said Ald. Mike D'Amato, who is leading council opposition to PabstCity.

But most aldermen interviewed declined to say how they'll vote this week, with some saying they hadn't yet made a decision.

The project is a proposed $317 million conversion of downtown's former Pabst brewery into a complex that would include theater, restaurants, nightclubs, stores, housing and offices.

Read the rest of the article here...

http://www.jsonline.com/bym/news/jul05/338413.asp

I'm interested to see how this whole things plays out...

Whiteny Gould wrote and article about the proposed National Competition to possibly redesign Cathedral Square Park.

http://graphics.jsonline.com/graphics/news/img/jul05/gouldj070305.jpg

Here is the article...

http://www.jsonline.com/news/metro/jul05/338506.asp

My thoughts on the two topics listed above.

First the easy one, Cathedral Square.

This is a great place. Jazz in the park, sipping wine on a Thursday night with a bunch of people... I actually did a research project on downtown open space when I was a student at UWM. I compared different downtown parks and did various counts during the day at each one. Cathedral Square was always attracting a vast majority of people during their lunch hour and what not over any other park. I think it has to do with the simplicity of it as well as it is a natural little green space in the middle of the downtown area. Other civic areas are paved over with concrete, which to me isn't as inviting. I agree with Gould in the existing trees need to stay and any improvements should be minor. Maybe better picnic tables, benches, lighting, possibly a small fountain or monument. KISS - Keep it simple stupid.

Second - Pabst City.

I'm not trying to post my thoughts to change people's opinion. I am posting my opinion and what I believe in, which I think most of the people here try and do. Everyone has a right to disagree or agree. It's really hard to compare this potential project to anything in the City because it is radically different - save for the basic uses of res/office/retail. I thought they were supposed to do an entertainment themed deal down by Miller Park? Yet, to me I would agree less with that location than the current location.

The point I tried to make in my previous post was that the Third Ward seemed unattached from downtown when it redeveloped and it looks to be doing fine to me.

The Pabst City site looks unattached from downtown, but it doesn't mean it will forever. I keep the fact in mind that you need to start somewhere. You may not agree with everything the developers are doing but it is something. Pabst City is not Wal-Mart coming into Milwaukee to kill all the bars and small club venues. Your still potentially bringing people downtown that may have just went elsewhere.

Look at the Grand Ave or the Shops on the Ave or whatever the hell you want to call it. It has gone through serious changes in it's 20+ years of existance. Now there are large tenants such as TJMaxx, Borders, and what not that have a presence in downtown when people were turning their backs on the mall a short few years ago. Is the mall a perfect project or even a close example to PC. No.

I know retail jobs aren't the answer for solving unemployment or getting a family providing income. But you are near the Campuses of Marquette and MATC. This would be a huge draw just from that population alone. Plus maybe it would allow employment for a student population. I don't know.

So anyways - I'm not trying to change anyone's opinion or correct anyone's information. Just stating my thoughts. I thought this is what this was thread was for.

There is a poll and an article in today's JS regarding Pabst City and the last ditch effort to defeat the project by preservationalists.

The early poll results, as of 8:30 am Tuesday morning, has the majority of voters that think PC would be good for Downtown Milwaukee.

This pole is unscientific at best.

Link to the pole here:

http://www.jsonline.com/news/newspoll.asp?poll=5126

Read the article here:

http://www.jsonline.com/news/metro/jul05/338633.asp

I don't think Pabst City would be a detriment to Milwaukee, but I don't think it will be the golden savior that the developers and the City have made it out to be. I see avissers' point that the 3rd Ward was once cut off and isolated from Downtown, but despite this weakness it turned into what it is today. I don't think you can compare today's Pabst brewery site to the pre-boom Third Ward of the '80s, however. The Third Ward was made up of mostly obsolete or soon-to-be obsolete industrial uses and warehousing that was ripe to be turned over to new uses. The Pabst brewery itself is ripe for a new use, but it's surrounded on all sides by institutional uses that are, by their very nature, frozen in place, and will most likely never turn over to other uses.

The Third Ward was separated from Downtown by a freeway, while the Pabst site is separated from Downtown by the county jail, public safety building, and MATC. These institutional uses will act like a brick wall, containing all the activity within a confined space. And they will never turn over to other uses. This may work to the benefit of the developers, who will lease out all the space within this concentrated ciricle of activity. But it will not benefit the Downtown at large.

I also have serious reservations about parking. The parking structures will function like a second iron ring within the outer ring of institutional uses, further containing activity. Again, what a boon for the developers, but not for Downtown. Visitors to Pabst City will invariably park in one of the developer-owned parking structures, dine in one of the developer-leased restaurants and watch a movie at the developer-leased multiplex. At the end of the visit the developer has collected a bundle from parking fees, etc, and other Downtown venues have collected zero.

This is, of course, all fine and dandy in a capitalist economy such as ours. It's fine and admirable that the Pabst City developers want to turn a healthy profit. But if this development will benefit the developer, with hardly any benefit for the Downtown at large, why are we being asked to float the largest TIF ever in City history to fund it?

I don't think Pabst City would be a detriment to Milwaukee, but I don't think it will be the golden savior that the developers and the City have made it out to be. I see avissers' point that the 3rd Ward was once cut off and isolated from Downtown, but despite this weakness it turned into what it is today. I don't think you can compare today's Pabst brewery site to the pre-boom Third Ward of the '80s, however. The Third Ward was made up of mostly obsolete or soon-to-be obsolete industrial uses and warehousing that was ripe to be turned over to new uses. The Pabst brewery itself is ripe for a new use, but it's surrounded on all sides by institutional uses that are, by their very nature, frozen in place, and will most likely never turn over to other uses.

The Third Ward was separated from Downtown by a freeway, while the Pabst site is separated from Downtown by the county jail, public safety building, and MATC. These institutional uses will act like a brick wall, containing all the activity within a confined space. And they will never turn over to other uses. This may work to the benefit of the developers, who will lease out all the space within this concentrated ciricle of activity. But it will not benefit the Downtown at large.

I also have serious reservations about parking. The parking structures will function like a second iron ring within the outer ring of institutional uses, further containing activity. Again, what a boon for the developers, but not for Downtown. Visitors to Pabst City will invariably park in one of the developer-owned parking structures, dine in one of the developer-leased restaurants and watch a movie at the developer-leased multiplex. At the end of the visit the developer has collected a bundle from parking fees, etc, and other Downtown venues have collected zero.

This is, of course, all fine and dandy in a capitalist economy such as ours. It's fine and admirable that the Pabst City developers want to turn a healthy profit. But if this development will benefit the developer, with hardly any benefit for the Downtown at large, why are we being asked to float the largest TIF ever in City history to fund it?

Great post.

I think it kind of boils down to whether something is better than nothing. I think most can agree that this isn't the end all be all of projects here in Milwaukee, nor is the evil empire that some make it out to be.

Do City Officials take a chance and hope for the best, or do they wait until someone else comes along (possibly not with solid lease tenants) asking for less financial assistance and let the land sit vacant?

We shall hopefully know more tomorrow.

I still kind of think it is a neat idea though... Rooftop bars looking east over downtown to the lake.

I know this image was probably early on in the development stages - but it still gives a good look at what could possibly be.

http://www.berghammer.com/featured/pabst_amphitheater_aerial.jpg

Am I the only one who is thinking about how close PC is to the Park East area?(which is close to downtown. I know that the land is still empty, but I don't think it's gonna stay that way)

Unfortunately, that image is from early on in the development stages, before the developers scaled back their plans for PC. The outdoor amphiatheater, skating rink, and much of the rooftop dining (which from that particular vantage point, would have looked out over the nearby freeway interchange) have been axed completely or reduced to a tiny sliver of space. Here is the more recent, less inspiring, cost-cutting design:

http://graphics.jsonline.com/graphics/bym/img/jul04/pabst070104.jpg

There's no doubt that redeveloping the Pabst brewery is TIF-worthy, but I'd rather the City spend that money for something with a good design and contributes positively to the urban environment (like the earlier scheme) than one that does not (like the later scheme). At least the earlier design offers a good amount of potential for vibrancy, with the outdoor amphiatheater, rooftop dining/bar areas, and an active street-level with lots of transparency. The later design has stripped most of that away (save for the replacement park, which is OK). Gone is any indication of large rooftop outdoor dning areas, and the street-level windows have been replaced by blank/textured windowless walls (behind which, no doubt, is a parking garage--which may indeed be necessary, but poorly executed).

My heart has always wanted to support Pabst City. How could you not fall in love with the concept of this old 19th - 20th Century brewery being reborn into theaters, shops, restaurants, etc?

Like avissers said, Milwaukee needs to go for it. But I just don't see how the current, slimmed down version of Pabst City (super happy fun land) is really "going for it."

How about a high-tech research park, a joint venture between UW Madison, and UW Milwaukee, in which the old bottling plant could house some kind of giant reactor where the world's top scientists could seek a cure for cancer? That would be going for it.

This might not be totally realistic, but must we accept a publicly financed movie theater, arcade and theater surrounded by parking structures? Let's really go for it and turn the old Pabst brewery into something no one has ever seen before.

I'm expecting the TIF to pass the Common Council tommorow. In such case, I'll hope for the best for this project, and, when it's completed, maybe I'll even take the bus Downtown and walk there sometime from the Grand Avenue.

Trouble is, everyone else that goes there (it will be very popular while the novelty is still fresh) will most likely drive and park in giant structure.

If the TIF doesn't pass, and Pabst City dies, then we're looking at another 10 years of vacancy for the site. I guess I'd rather have something than nothing, but it really didn't have to turn out this way.

Pabst City really reminds me of Station Square (http://www.stationsquare.com/main.htm) in Pittsburgh. Out of curiosity, does anyone know how well that impacted downtown Pittsburgh (if at all)?

Looks like we are down to the final hours before we see something. It feels like I'm watching an election or something...

There was a rather good editorial along with an article about the Milwaukee Common Council committee recomendation last night.

Thanks for the newer picture of PC Markitect - somewhat not as striking as the older rendering that I posted.

An interesting quote from the article - hey it made me laugh...

"There's a bunch of pigeons living at the Pabst brewery," said Richard "Rocky" Marcoux, the city development commissioner. "And they're not paying taxes."

Huh?

http://www.jsonline.com/bym/news/jul05/338963.asp

http://www.jsonline.com/news/editorials/jul05/338882.asp

It looks like a probable "go" for Pabst. I think the newer rendering is actually more urbane than the previous, rather gimmicky one shown. That's just a personal opinion, of course; Feel free to disagree.
I think it should be noted that PC is not too distant from the convention center, and could only make Milwaukee a more desirable venue for visitors.
I would hope that the combination of a new multi-use urban destination, and the large swath of available, developable land connecting it to existing entertainment and visitor districts, is stimulating our imaginations to think outside the confines of our mental maps of what "downtown" encompasses. Yes, the project could fizzle, in which case the city would be left with another Schlitz Park, also originally inspired by Ghiardelli Square, (as are all these projects), but never fully realized. That really wouldn't be so bad. But if it's a success, then improvements can always follow, and if good development blooms and connects the current downtown to points north, and the River to points west, and beyond -- think beyond Marquette -- well, just imagine.

It looks like a probable "go" for Pabst. I think the newer rendering is actually more urbane than the previous, rather gimmicky one shown. That's just a personal opinion, of course; Feel free to disagree.
I think it should be noted that PC is not too distant from the convention center, and could only make Milwaukee a more desirable venue for visitors.
I would hope that the combination of a new multi-use urban destination, and the large swath of available, developable land connecting it to existing entertainment and visitor districts, is stimulating our imaginations to think outside the confines of our mental maps of what "downtown" encompasses. Yes, the project could fizzle, in which case the city would be left with another Schlitz Park, also originally inspired by Ghiardelli Square, (as are all these projects), but never fully realized. That really wouldn't be so bad. But if it's a success, then improvements can always follow, and if good development blooms and connects the current downtown to points north, and the River to points west, and beyond -- think beyond Marquette -- well, just imagine.

Interesting. When talk of Pabst City began, some in the real estate world began taking a look at Vliet just west of the freeway. Talk began of residential loft development in three or four of the most dilapidated blocks in the city -- Vliet between about 14th and 17th streets.

It was all only talk, of course, but Pabst City at least made some people look at the possibility of redevelopment in that area, an area which hadn't received any attention whatsoever for 30 years.

If Pabst City does move forward, I will keep my fingers crossed for some spillover redevelopment on the other side of I-43. Time will tell.

Pabst City really reminds me of Station Square (http://www.stationsquare.com/main.htm) in Pittsburgh. Out of curiosity, does anyone know how well that impacted downtown Pittsburgh (if at all)?

Well, hopefully the House of Blues can attract better talent than the Chevy Amphitheater:

Wednesday, July 13
O.A.R. (...of a revolution)

with special guest Pepper

Sunday, July 24
Elvis Costello and the Imposters featuring the vocal stylings of Emmylou Harris

Sunday, July 31
An Evening with Clay Aiken

Tuesday, August 2 Duran Duran with specail guests Dragonette
Wednesday, August 3
Widespread Panic

Saturday, August 13
Pittsburgh Import Fusion

Wednesday, August 17
Megadeth with special guests Dream Theater, Fear Factory, Dillinger Escape Plan and Nevermore.
Sunday, August 28 "More Drama Tour" featuring members of YES with Alan White, Steve Howe and Chris Squire
September 2-5
Pennsylvania Macaroni Company presents the 18th annual Summer Italian Festival



An evening with Clay Aiken!?

Similar idea though. Looks like a decent place for tourism, as if anyone goes to Pittsburgh for tourism.

how do you guys feel about this smoking ban? Its bullshit in my opinion. Milwaukee is a bar and bowling city...not an art gallery visiting, yoga and tai chi city.

how do you guys feel about this smoking ban? Its bullshit in my opinion. Milwaukee is a bar and bowling city...not an art gallery visiting, yoga and tai chi city.

We're a bar, bowling, art gallery, yoga and tai chi city all at the same time. That's one of the things I love about this town. I would love more smoke-free establishments. But let the market decide. Open a smoke-free bar and I'll vote for it with my business.

The Pabst City Vote has been postponed until possibly the July 26th Meeting.

Of the 15 aldermen, just three - Mike McGee Jr., Tony Zielinski and Mike D'Amato - voted for the delay. But that was just enough votes, under an obscure city ordinance allowing onetime delays on spending issues with just one-fifth of the council's members voting for approval.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/metro/jul05/339071.asp

As far as the smoking ban. I was in SF and everyone was standing out on the sidewalk smoking. Therefore you need to take your drink, lose your seat at the bar unless you have someone saving it, and grab your coat to go outside. Bars should have the choice to decide not be forced. If you want to go to a smoke free bar, I'm sure some will be avilable...

The vote was delayed after confusion over an ammendment to require the PC developers to foot the bill for a Downtown shuttle that will link the site with other attractions in the CBD. The consultant's report issued by the City comptroller recommended exactly this, saying that a shuttle has helped Navy Pier overcome its locational disadvantages.

Throw in the shuttle, and knock out one of the parking decks, and I'll be closer to supporting this thing.

But I hope it's resolved on the 26th. If it's in limbo any longer than that, it will wither and die.

I am against this now. I was so optimistic about PC...but no longer. How will this benefit Milwaukee? Why do we need an arcade, nightclub, and some condos? Its a waste of money. It will not draw tourists. I will not draw alot of city residents either. This thing will be right next to the ghetto of Milwaukee. Its right next to the 3 prisons. There are good people in this area..but cmon, what kind of people are going to be hanging out here? Young blacks--mostly well behaved ones with the usual badapples that ruined Northridge. The ones that scare suburbanites away from Mayfair to their safe confines of Brookfield Square. I hope Im not sounding racist...but its sad reality.

Thanks for the perfect intro for this, Redd. You guys may want to stop on by UWM's Union for the The Milwaukee Divide, an exhibition concerning Milwaukee's position as a (supposedly) severely racially segregated city. Looks like it will be interesting. Here's a link to more info:

http://www.aux.uwm.edu/Union/events/gallery/e-announcment/Untitled-1.htm

I am against this now. I was so optimistic about PC...but no longer. How will this benefit Milwaukee? Why do we need an arcade, nightclub, and some condos? Its a waste of money. It will not draw tourists. I will not draw alot of city residents either. This thing will be right next to the ghetto of Milwaukee. Its right next to the 3 prisons. There are good people in this area..but cmon, what kind of people are going to be hanging out here? Young blacks--mostly well behaved ones with the usual badapples that ruined Northridge. The ones that scare suburbanites away from Mayfair to their safe confines of Brookfield Square. I hope Im not sounding racist...but its sad reality.

Northridge never actually had any more of a crime problem than any other area mall. But you'd never guess that from watching the local evening news of the 1990s. The only thing that killed Northridge was white America's irrational fear of young black males, plain and simple.

When young black kids get rowdy in a public place it fills suburbanites with fears of "getting shot." When young white kids get rowdy in a public place it's called "college."

But of course the developers of Pabst City can do nothing to change these things. All they can do is take steps to make the suburbanites feel safe. Such as build parking structures so they don't have to walk on the scary streets.

When young black kids get rowdy in a public place it fills suburbanites with fears of "getting shot." When young white kids get rowdy in a public place it's called "college."


AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAHAHAHahahaha!!!

Northridge never actually had any more of a crime problem than any other area mall. But you'd never guess that from watching the local evening news of the 1990s. The only thing that killed Northridge was white America's irrational fear of young black males, plain and simple.

When young black kids get rowdy in a public place it fills suburbanites with fears of "getting shot." When young white kids get rowdy in a public place it's called "college."


:lol:


True, so very, very true

Does anyone know if any renderings have been released on the RSC & Associates project in the Park East that Scott Walker signed off on yesterday?

The plans were to build 134 condominiums and 26,800 square feet of retail space. I remember the project proposed for the city land having renderings associated with them, but not the County project.

Just wondering - thanks.

http://www.dailyreporter.com/images/editorialImages/rendering-061405.jpg
^ The proposed Park East development from team of RSC & Associates, the Morgan Group Inc., Legat Architects, and Barrientos Design.

^That's the kind of architecture we need in that area, let's spruce it up.

^ The proposed Park East development from team of RSC & Associates, the Morgan Group Inc., Legat Architects, and Barrientos Design.


Thanks. That does look very unique with the use of glass walls and the interesting roof treatment on the taller portion of the condo building.

Yeah, it looks like a jazzy little project. And I hope they'll keep it colorful like that, and not bland it down with browns and tans. I haven't found any larger renderings anywhere online yet.

very cool rendering. let us know if u find any larger pics of it Mark...

It looks a little...um...patchy, I think, is the word I'm looking for. I think I like the roof of the tall thing...I won't say for sure until I've seen a larger image.

There was an article in the JS today regarding the proposed MLS Soccer Stadium, with a potential location in the Park East.

I am torn on this very "out there" proposal. It (the stadium architecture and related facilities) would really have to fit into the fabric of what the Park East is trying to achieve. I'm not sure a soccer specific stadium would do that. I am not a soccer nut, but I know there is a loyal fan base. Heck there is probably more baseball fans than soccer fans in the State, but at some times you only get 9,000 people in Miller Park for some games. Taking up a huge percentage of acreage in the Park East with a stadium only used part of the time - is it really worth only attracting people with this type of use on certain occasions?

I'm not sure. I know that a lot of people always wanted a stadium, but if MLS goes down the tubes or a team doesn't take off in Milwaukee - than that is a large area and potentailly large investment with a "VERY" limited use facility. Or what happens when they want a new stadium down the road in 10 - 15 years? Then you get into parking concerns... Too many questions for me.

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/socc/jul05/339445.asp

I can understand where you're coming from, but at the same time i'd think the people proposing the stadium would do their research on demographics and whatnot so they're not just building one for the helluvit. They need some way to cover their asses financially after investing in a, what i would think to be, multi-million dollar facility, and only the dumbest of people would make an investment like that without doing their research before-hand to know that their hard work and their investments will pay off financially.

I think MLS is here to stay and soccer stadiums can be very cool looking from an architectural standpoint. We'll have to wait for the rendering. This could also serve as a football stadium if Marquette or UWM were to ever to start a team. But i understand why city officials would not want it in Park East and probably closer to the Bradley Center. Either way i think it could be exciting.

Soccer is actually pretty big in Milwaukee right now. Uilhein field on the Northwest side is always packed during nice weather... there's a series of fields where schools play each other, and the Wave practice there. Down on the South Side an indoor soccer facility is planned for 6th & Arthur. Soccer is huge among the Hispanic community, the fastest growing segment of Milwaukee's population, and there's been pent up demand for a comprehensive soccer facility down on the South Side for some time.

This stadium, and an MLS team, would put Milwaukee on the national soccer map, a part of a sport that's more popular than ever now in the US, and that has long been the most popular sport around the world.

I do understand the City's reluctance to embrace a Park East site for the stadium, however.

I'd rather have the city invest in smaller soccer facilities around the city where needed, instead of adding one downtown at the moment.

If we're going to make an investment, why not invest in the community? This isn't the right way to do it.

As far as Park East goes, let's leave it alone to outdoor-oriented venues. Fill up the area with condos with street-level commercial, create unique and inviting greenspace. Just give the area an identity of it's own, let's make a neighborhood instead of a botchy attempt for a tourist destination (we already have PabstCity for that).

I smell a NIMBY!

There was an outdoor MLS stadium proposed for the Park East corridor, on the block just north of the Bradley Center, back in 2001. The City was quite interested, but plans fell through for a few reasons: there was a short time span between the proposal and when MLS was going to announce expansion teams (which it ultimately never did), a lack of finances, the Bradley Center wanted to use the same land for a possible future expansion, and there was still some uncertainty over whether the adjacent freeway was going to be demolished or not.

That proposal included:

- Seating: 20,000 seats, expandable up to 26,000
- Club seats: 5000 seats
- Suites: 18 private suites; lounge seating, wet bar, etc.
- Playing field: grass field, FIFA regulation (75 yds X 120 yds); provisions for footbal, concerts, and outdoor events
- Restaurant: 3000 sq ft brew pub open year-round.
- Possibilities for other retail at street-level
- Parking could have been accommodated with the two existing structures near the Bradley Center, as both of them would have been right across the street from the soccer stadium. No doubt more could've been built, if needed.

Here are the renderings for that old proposal...

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/socc/image/soccer721.jpg

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/socc/image/soccer2721.jpg


Some things would need to be ironed out for the latest proposal, though--especially the MLS policy on wanting soccer-only stadia for its teams. In addition to the other soccer clubs around town that could use the stadium, it could also be used by local universities as well for thier own soccer teams (and, a long shot, but maybe even reintroducing their defunct football teams--that idea was passed around last year to UWM and Marquette, but they balked for the time being).

This latest proposal also includes much more than just the stadium, the developers would like to include housing, retail, and offices on nearby blocks.

And I have a hunch that if this latest soccer stadium/mixed-use proposal is for the same area as the previous one (blocks north of Bradley Center), the City would be opposed to it because it just so happens to be the same site being eyed for a relocated Potawatomi Casino.

it just so happens to be the same site being eyed for a relocated Potawatomi Casino.

The City's wasting their time with this Downtown casino thing. What reason would the Potowatomi possibly have to up and leave this casino they've already developed (in their land trust) and build a new casino? Plus, the Federal government would have to sign off on it. There's too much uncertainty, and no real reason for the tribe to do it.

would we support another team?

We already have two proffesional teams--an outdoor and indoor team. One of them is probally the most successful team in their league. Ive never been to a Wave game, but I suspect that they dont draw THAT many people. The Wave United (aka the old Rampage) gets a decent following. They are cheap and fun to watch. I for one, as unseen said, can go to Uilhein and see soccer pretty much anytime--whether it be kids, teens, college, WIAA championship, proffesional, and various other adult leauges. I can also go see mens and womens soccer (which is fun to watch from what I hear) at UWM or in the Valley. Marqutte also has soccer I believe. You can also see soccer at the other various colleges...Cardinal Stritch, Waukesha, Alverno, even MATC which was nationally ranked was no. 12 in their division. Every high school has soccer...Brookfield and the other suburban ones are pretty good. Finally, you can see soccer in alot of the parks being played by local leauges. In my area..ive seen Hmong (maybe other Asian) and Hispanic teams playing each other. Soccer is huge on the Southside..due to its heavy hispanic population. Like I said, you see them always playing soccer in the parks down there.

Do you think there will be TOO much soccer if they put a proffesional team? It will draw fans away from the other venues. I would rather see more park leagues and facilities on the South and North sides.

just myself being a big soccer fan and having played most of my life, i would be REALLY excited if they got a professional team, although i know where you're coming from ReddAlert. I dont know.. i think that as long as tickets to games werent too pricey and it was in an area of the city that would attract both the heavy fanbase that seems to reside on the southside and the moderate and growing fanbase everywhere else, a professional team could work in milwaukee. I just see the biggest problems being that they put it in an area that is too far for certain areas to commute.

for example, if they placed it more downtown, which i can see being a good option for both those north and south, the only problem would be finding the room to put it. as long as it isnt too far for people to commute to or in an area of town that certain people will be scared or intimadated to travel to.

i dont know. i'll leave that to the people proposing it...

If they build a stadium....they need to get alot more use out of it that just the MLS. UWM or Marquette could play games there. They could also play host to other events..such as WIAA soccer or Track and Field. Other local clubs could play there from time to time. They could play Field Hockey, LaCrosse, Rugby, and yes, college football in this stadium. They dont play THAT many games in the MLS...we should get some other use in my opinion.

If they tie the stadium in with clubs, bars/pubs, resturants, some retail...I will be content.

I think one question that needs to be asked is if this stadium will be financed privately or will there need to be public support. I can't see a 5 county sales tax imposed on this type of venue (ala Miller Park) and would be skeptical, at best, that Milwaukee County voters alone would support more taxes to build this complex.

If it is completely private finance, then as long as it was integrated into the Park East in a way that complemented it as a whole, rather than stuck out like a sore thumb or cut off walkability and what not - than go nuts.

I probably will never attend a game though.

I totally agree there, if a private financier wants to put this up and it goes with the flow of park east then by all means go for it. I'm not a huge soccer fan but if its fairly inexpensive I'd probably go once or twice a year atleast. It would be even better if they integrated all the things talked about earlier like the retail, residential etc.

I'm not sure of the exact location they were thinking of, but I do wonder if a stadium, being large, would serve to break the flow going north of park east and instead form a barrier just like the old freeway did. Is that a possibility to keep in mind?

According to everything that's been reported, this latest proposed soccer stadium and related development (an estimated $300-500 million worth total) would be privately financed (so was the previous stadium-only proposal, $55 million or so). It is being headed by Milwaukee real estate developer Marty Greenberg--who also happens to be a nationally leading expert on sports law and sports facility financing/construction, and he's been involved with developing several sporting facilities all around the country. We're not dealing with a Bud Selig here, so there's no need to worry about Miller Park financing fiasco with this.

I'm guessing they're not going to reinvent the wheel for this new proposal, either--so I'll bet the stadium portion will be quite similar to what was proposed back in 2001 (which would've been developed on the two blocks immediately north of the Bradley Center, between 4th and 6th and Highland and Juneau) and would have additional development (offices, retail, condos, whatever) on some of the adjacent blocks surrounding it. That's the perfect location to put such a stadium, because that's where it would be the most integrated into the street/block pattern, and there is no flow there to be broken in the first place. The second best stadium site would be just north of the first--between 4th and 6th and Juneau and McKinley, because that's all been opened up now with the freeway demolition. Then they could develop the blocks on all four sides with the other stuff.

If its privately financed, then I say we go for it. I was just listening to late night radio...and they said more information about it will be relased by the end of the week. I hope they do something a little cool like the soccer stadiums in Europe...nothing TOO ridicolous though. :)

The New York real estate investment firm of Ashkenazy Acquisition Corp.--the soon-to-be-new-owners of the Shops of Grand Avenue--have plans to improve the tenant mix at the downtown mall. The firm hopes to attract more national retailers (especially more who sell "soft goods"), more sit-down restaurants, and more kiosk vendors. Ashkenazy believes a Kohl's could be a good fit for the mall or nearby area (an idea shared by Mayor Barrett); the firm owns shopping centers elsewhere that contain Kohl's stores. Negotiations continue for an Office Max to lease space in the former Woolworth's store. With improved market potential from all the new resiential and office development that has cropped upin the area since the mall opened in the early-1980s, Ashkenazy says his firm will make a long-term committment to the Grand Avenue.

More stuff in the Business Journal article: Grand plans - New Grand Avenue owner plans to recruit national tenants, more restaurants (http://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/stories/2005/07/11/story1.html?page=1)


***


Great Lakes cruise ships and other smaller vessels will have an easier time docking in Milwaukee thanks to several new dock projects in the works.

The Pier Wisconsin project includes three new docks:

- A new breakwater extending south of Pier Wisconsin will provide a place specifically for large cruise ships to dock. An access road down the middle of the breakwater will allow ship-to-tour bus transfer.

- A boardwalk/dock along the south side of Pier Wisconsin will provide a space for smaller boats to dock, and can be used as a secondary cruise ship dock.

- The third dock will be for the Denis Sullivan educational schooner.

Across the harbor, the Port of Milwaukee is building a new dock for cruise ships next to the Lake Express ferry terminal near Bay View. That dock is scheduled to be completed by August, just in time for the September arrivals of two Great Lakes cruise ships, the 100-passenger Grande Caribe (100-passenger vessel) and the Christopher Columbus (450-passegner vessel).

These new facilities will be a vast improvement over sharing the heavy-lift docks with commercial/industrial ships on Jones Island, tucked away beneath the Hoan Bridge near the sewerage plant. That inconvenient, and odorous, location has often been a turn-off for cruise ships stopping at Milwaukee--though they do still stop on occassion. The new docks underway will make Milwaukee more competitive among Great Lake cities and cruise ship tours.

Details in the Business Journal: Ahoy, Great Lakes cruisers - Cruise ship docks to be built along Milwaukee lakefront (http://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/stories/2005/07/11/story7.html)


***


Officials from the Marcus Center for Perfoming Arts, Irgens Development, the City of Milwaukee, and Milwaukee County are close to an agreement for a financial and development agreement concerning the proposed Ovation Plaza mixed-use project. The tower, which has been proposed for a couple years now, would be built on the site of an existing parking structure along N. Water Street. The Marcus Center hopes that its financial future can be secured by selling the office, retail, and possible residential portions of Ovation Plaza to Irgens, and to retain ownership and parking revenue from the new parking structure that would be built to accommodate the tower, as well as the Marcus Center across the street. Such an arrangement could go a long way in providing the Marcus Center with money during an era in which its County-issued subsidies are facing cuts. A tax incremental financing district could likely be used to help pay for some of the infrstraucture costs related to any new development. And of course, an anchor tenant is still needed. One possible prospect is the Goodfrey & Kahn law firm, which is considering new office space in Downtown at two possible locations, including Ovation Plaza.

More can be found in the Business Journal article: Marcus Center looking for Ovation to secure future (http://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/stories/2005/07/11/newscolumn1.html)


***


Blue Cross Blue Shield of Wisconsin will be relocating its offices and 750 workers from Downtown Milwaukee to an office park being developed on the former Allis-Chalmers factory in West Allis. According to Blue Cross, the move will save the company about $8 million over ten years. No doubt the savings come in the form of cheaper rents, operating expenses, property taxes, and parking in the suburbs compared to Downtown. Those factors have helped the suburbs capture a growing share of the regional office market, despite a few recent "wins" of the city (Roundy's Supermarkets, Bank One).

Full details can be found in the Journal Sentinel article: Blue Cross to leave downtown - Move to West Allis expected to cut costs (http://www.jsonline.com/bym/news/jul05/340333.asp)


***


Some opponents of the proposed PabstCity entertainment complex would like to see a privately-finacned downtown soccer stadium and mixed-use development being proposed by Marty Greenberg to be located at PabstCity instead. Alderman Tony Zielinski appears to be leading the charge for soccer on the Pabst property--he has been in contact with Greenberg about the issue. Zielinski believes a soccer stadium would be a good fit and that Greenberg has the resources to make it happen.

Greenberg and his investors have their first choice as a site in the Park East corridor, although the City seems to be cool to that idea. Should that be turned down, the group will look at other downtown sites. Greenberg has not been available for comments on a PabstCity location. A formal announcement on the soccer development is expected sometime this week.

Meanwhile, PabstCity's developers at Wispark say this is the first they've heard of a soccer stadium proposal at the Pabst site. And a Department of City Development spokesperson says it is likely a little late in the game to consider a soccer stadium at PabstCity.

More in the Journal Sentinel: PabstCity foes push soccer stadium - Discussion might be aimed at defeating proposed entertainment complex (http://www.jsonline.com/news/metro/jul05/340331.asp)

Damn..I was just about to go to bed and then all of this came up!

-I am glad they are pursuing better stores in Grand Ave. They need stores that will actually draw people downtown and cater to those who live and work down there. However, I believe Mayfair and Bayshore will continue being the shopping hotspots.

-Pier Wisconsin has me very excited. I love how it looks! The news that it will handle cruise ships is very cool. I figure these arent going to be the Voyager of the Seas or anything but still good for the city. I heard that around 15 foreign cruise ships dock in Milwaukee each year. Its actually quite surprising that people from Europe or Asia tour the Great Lakes. Hopefully this increases tourism.

-A soccer stadium at Pabst? How? If they can incorporate the old buildings and stadium...then Ill be very pleased. I doubt thats what they got in mind though. Besides...they have been working on PabstCity for years now, I doubt they would just forget about it. Even if they put it in the Park East...Im still for the idea.

that stadium rendering is from the dead proposal right?

-A soccer stadium at Pabst? How? If they can incorporate the old buildings and stadium...then Ill be very pleased. I doubt thats what they got in mind though. Besides...they have been working on PabstCity for years now, I doubt they would just forget about it. Even if they put it in the Park East...Im still for the idea.

Not sure how exactly...sometimes people just throw out ideas without having any idea or understanding as to how it could be done. This whole idea seems to be more of an attempt to throw a monkeywrench into the current plans as a sign of protesting the TIF request that's on the table more than anything else.

But, in this case, I would guess the intention of the idea is to build a soccer stadium at PabstCity in place of the new buildings (House of Blues, Gameworks, Marcus Cinema--none of those are going in the historic buildings, they will all be new construction) being proposed there under the current plans.

It's a horrible place for a soccer stadium, regardless!

that stadium rendering is from the dead proposal right?

Correct. The renderings I posted the other day were from the 2001 proposal--for the blocks between 4th/6th Streets and Highland/Juneau Avenues--right next door to the BC.

-A soccer stadium at Pabst? How? If they can incorporate the old buildings and stadium...then Ill be very pleased. I doubt thats what they got in mind though. Besides...they have been working on PabstCity for years now, I doubt they would just forget about it. Even if they put it in the Park East...Im still for the idea.

I am in complete agreement there. I think scrapping the Pabst City Plan, this late in the game (a couple weeks from final action) would be just a waste for both the City and the developers - if I am for or against the project. If the stadium gets built in PC - I find it hard to believe that the developers will be able to integrate that into the existing structures and preserve even more buildings than the PC development will be able to.

Let's face it - you can't always make everyone happy. Don't the bar and venue owners know that even if Gameworks, HOB, and so on don't come in with PC they may come in elsewhere - namely the suburbs (MAYFAIR) which would be far worse in attracting people from downtown and their businesses.

I'm not taking the idea to put the soccer stadium at the Pabst site too seriously. To me it seems that the opponents of PC are getting desparate -- three alderman managed to delay the vote last week when it was obvious to everyone that the TIF was about to pass the council. The Pabst City TIF will pass the Council on the 27th because it has the full support of like nine Aldermen. So the project's opponents are doing whatever they can in the next few weeks to shake the support of enough aldermen to get them to delay the TIF vote one more time, which would essentially kill the project.

Whoever came up with this idea of putting the soccer stadium at the brewery obviously pulled it out of their arse. Maybe it could work, maybe it couldn't. But having a 20,000 seat venue in a traffic island like the Brewery would be insane. And how exactly would they work out the preservation of historic buildings?

I'm eager to see a more formal proposal for this stadium. If MLS is ready to move forward and expand into Milwaukee, this thing would stand a good chance of happening. If it becomes a "done deal" with full MLS support, I don't see how the City could try to obstruct it. Especially if the development includes housing and retail. I'm keeping my fingers crossed on this one ... this would be great for the city.

OK.... the soccer stadium in the pabst area is obviously ludicrous...

but the new word on ovation plaza is exciting to me! I've always thought that that location is absolutely ideal for a building of that size. Has there ever been any possible renderings done of it?

New tenants at Summit Place leave no room for Manpower

The West Allis office development that has lured Blue Cross Blue Shield of Wisconsin and two sister companies from downtown Milwaukee has secured another new tenant, leaving no room for a possible move by Manpower Inc. to the same office complex.

Sanford-Brown College will lease 35,000 square feet at Summit Place from Whitnall Summit Inc., company chairman and chief executive officer Richard Carlson said Tuesday.

Rest of the article in the Milwaukee Business Journal...

http://milwaukee.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/stories/2005/07/11/daily13.html?jst=b_ln_hl

This news may narrow the focus of Manpower to downtown and expansion possibilities at its current site or near it. This is possibly why we may be hearing about Ovation Plaza again, or not. Not sure - but it would be some good news after losing another large office tenant downtown.

Ovation Plaza, as it was proposed back in 2003:

http://cdx.xceligent.com/attachments/914/460914_tn.jpg

Great proposal for that area. I really hope the tower get approved soon. Really haven't heard much about it, keep us updated Mark!

I remember working on the blueprints a while back for ovation. Did that thing get canceled?

No. Go back a few posts to read about it.

I smell a NIMBY!

I understand that phrase, but what are you referring to?

Also, has anyone heard anything about Summerfest attendance figures? I'm in Madison so I'm sure I won't hear much about it.

Annnnd one more question for anyone who might know, if Ovation does float, what are the chances that the design will see an update?

A NIMBY is a person who opposes a development. It means "Not In My Back Yard."

The chances of a design update for Ovation is unknown. It really depends on who or what would be the tenants, and if the developers, architects, or the City would like to have or need to have changes made. That rendering from 2003 is the only one I've ever seen for Ovation Plaza. It may have changed since then, it may still be the same.

I have some random information to support some of the talk about Farwell development downtown.

I signed a lease last week on Farwell near Brady, and had a interesting conversation with my new landlord. He's owned the building for 20 years and told me this fall will be the first time he's substantially raised rent in a decade (this was after I signed my lease, so I don't believe he was trying to sell me). He talked about how property owners on Farwell are expecting a Prospect Ave size boom, due to the attention old buildings are receiving from some "key" developers in Milwaukee. He could be a crazy dude whos waiting for his paycheck, but I believe what he's saying to be substantial.

I believe some buildings have already been snatched up by developers. One place I checked out on Farwell (a dump near Jewel Osco) is under new ownership by the same company that's developing the new high-rise farther down Farwell (Enterprise I believe? Can someone correct me?) It's the same company that built the amazing block-size development in Third ward next to the summerfest grounds.

I could be over-analyzing the situation, or the area could be seeing some major ownership swaps (or both), but I really think something big is brewing on Farwell...hopefully larger than what we're already expecting.
l

back to pabst city ... A soccer stadium!!!????????? whats going on here? the last thing we need is a soccer stadium. Yeah maybe it would bring in more people from the burbs into the city than pabst might but leave soccer to the suburbs. i think pabst city will survive in the long run

A NIMBY is a person who opposes a development. It means "Not In My Back Yard."

I'm familar with the meaning,. I normally see it as a negative term, I'm wondering who or what he was directing it to.

back to pabst city ... A soccer stadium!!!????????? whats going on here? the last thing we need is a soccer stadium. Yeah maybe it would bring in more people from the burbs into the city than pabst might but leave soccer to the suburbs. i think pabst city will survive in the long run

I totally agree that PC is a bad location fora soccer stadium and I don't want to see one built there, but do you really think a higher interest in soccer exists in the burbs? Milwaukee's probably got neighborhoods of kids that would kill from something like this (a new soccer stadium) to be built near them.

I understand that phrase, but what are you referring to?

Also, has anyone heard anything about Summerfest attendance figures? I'm in Madison so I'm sure I won't hear much about it.

Annnnd one more question for anyone who might know, if Ovation does float, what are the chances that the design will see an update?

It was quite the uninformed statement on my part as I thought you were trying to say that Milwaukee shouldn't have an MLS stadium and I was obviously misreading your post. I had no idea it was proposed for the site of Pabst City. I was under the impression it was proposed for the Park East area. My mistake. Sorry about that! :)

No, the soccer stadium has not been proposed for PabstCity. That's just talk from PabstCity TIF opponents.

Everything that's been reported about the soccer stadium has indicated that the developer (Greenberg) wants to build in in the Park East area. Greenberg has said nothing at all about PabstCity. He couldn't get UWM and Marquette to restart their old football programs for the football stadium he proposed last year for the Park East, so he recycled the idea now as a soccer stadium there instead. Those ideas have been in the works since before most of the anti-PabstCity stuff ever surfaced.

Meanwhile, there are people who oppose the current plans of PabstCity developers (Juneau Avenue Partners--Wispark, Ferchill) that want to have Greenberg build his proposed soccer stadium at PabstCity instead.

An announcement on the soccer stadium proposal was set to happen (sometimer this week) before this stadium-at-PabstCity idea surfaced...so we'll find out sometime soon.

Well, it has been announced:
Investors announce soccer stadium plan

An investor group today formally announced a $320 million plan to build a 20,000-seat soccer-specific stadium as part of a large, mixed-use development in downtown Milwaukee. The key to the project is securing a Major League Soccer franchise, said the group's new CEO, Peter Wilt of Whitefish Bay.

The group, Milwaukee Professional Soccer LLC, wants to put the entire development on vacant Park East land. However, city officials are opposed to locating the development there; they have offered to discuss alternatives sites.

If it comes to fruition, the development would total $3 million more than the proposed PabstCity development. That development, which awaits a Common Council vote in less than two weeks, would convert the old Pabst Brewery into a downtown entertainment and retail complex.

At a press conference at the Milwaukee Athletic Club, Wilt and Marty Greenberg, a Milwaukee sports attorney, said their project would be the "final economic engine" for a downtown entertainment district.

The two said the project could produce as many as 1,000 jobs, provide new retail and office space downtown, and be the home of a new MLS franchise.

Major League Soccer has plans to expand, and Milwaukee would be on a long list of cities seeking to secure a franchise. MLS officials have said they would consider Milwaukee. The stadium could host between 40 to 60 events a year, including MLS and international soccer matches, NCAA and youth soccer games, concerts and other community events.

Mayor Tom Barrett, who has made economic development a key part of his administration, was not present at the press conference. Greenberg said the mayor had been told of the project's scope. "He's anxious to learn more about this," Greenberg said.

Greenberg and Wilt said more details of the project would be released in the weeks and months ahead. But both said Milwaukee and the investor group needed to move fast in order to secure an MLS franchise for the city. The 12-team league is looking to expand to 14 teams by 2007.



I say build it. That's a good amount of money and jobs. Good for downtown.

How much land would this soccer stadium use up?

An educated guess...Probably about the same amount of land the previous 2001 soccer stadium proposal would have used up--about 2 blocks in the Park East area (between 4th/6th Streets and Highland/Juneau Avenue).

Double post.

Yeah, the press conference held today (or at least what has been reported of it so far, it's still pretty early to get a full article written) seems to be more about the naming of the new CEO for the organization who want to bring an MSL team here more than it does with the actual stadium development. In fact, aside from tossing a few numbers around, the naming of the new CEO is the only new information reported in that blurb NeuBrew posted (likewise for the one at the Business Journal: Milwaukee Professional Soccer club names CEO (http://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/stories/2005/07/11/daily24.html?jst=b_ln_hl)).

This proposal doesn't seem to be too heavy on specifics at this point. They're probably rolling out the proposal at this time to send a message to MLS that they're serious. Maybe there's some kind of deadline for consideration that they're trying to meet.

It's good to hear that 1. MLS wants to expand, and 2. Milwaukee is on their list of possible cities to expand to. What I want to know is, how many other cities are on this list, which ones are they, and do they have existing stadiums for this sort of thing? If they don't, how far along are their development proposals for new stadia?

But this Greenberg fella seems to know what he's doing. We'll have to wait and see.

The MLS website says...."Toronto, Houston, Seattle, St. Louis, Rochester, Cleveland, Detroit, Milwaukee and Philadelphia"

Some tough compitetion. I hope we get the ball moving on this one to secure a team.

Its nice to be included with cities such as Toronto, Houston and Detroit in places to expand to. Bring it on!

Here's the website for the organization trying to bring MLS here: Milwaukee Professional Soccer (http://www.milwaukeeprosoccer.com/index.html)

It would seem that with the combined credintials between Peter Wilt (Marquette grad, worked for Milwaukee Admirals and Wave, ex-general manager of Chicago Power [NPSL] and later the Chicago Fire [MLS]--he was responsible for brigning the Fire to Chicago) and Marty Greenberg (Marquette grad, nationally recognized expert on sports law, real estate/sports facility developer), the campaign to bring an MLS stadium here (organizing an ownership group, negotiating with MLS, stadium proposal) is off to a decent start.

Also, I have done some digging around, found some info from somebody who was at the press conference: A Park East site is definitely their number-one choice at this time, which is based on over a year-and-a-half's worth of time studying the area. The whole development would be in the $300-320 million range, with the stadium itself being about $40-60 million...most of it would be privately financed, but they say it's likely they'll request a $25 million or so TIF. They are shooting for a 2008 date.

What happens if they dont let them build in the Park East? Where else would be available? Do you think there is a chance they may allow them to build this in the PE?

What happens if they dont let them build in the Park East? Where else would be available?

Well, if Wilt, Greenberg, and company cannot persuade the City and County to build in the Park East, then it's possible the whole thing could just go away. There has to be a site large enough to accommodate the stadium and whatever else they're proposing. Outside of the Park East, the only other place Downtown (that wouldn't require the bulldozing of many buildings) would be in the Third Ward/Summerfest area. I doubt they'd stick their hands in the PabstCity hornet's nest, so we can probably rule that one out. The Park East is a blank slate, and could easily accommodate a stadium. And it's much more of a high visibility (right off the freeway, right around all the other bib mega-structure arenas, conention centers) than down in the Third Ward. A soccer stadium in the PC (provided it's multi-use) would actually make a good "bridge" that would connect activity at PabstCity (assuming all of that gets approved) and the areas across the river to the east.

Do you think there is a chance they may allow them to build this in the PE?

This is all very fresh stuff, so we'll have to wait and see how things play out.

Right now, there are people at the Dept. of City Development and on the Common Council who don't want a stadium in the PE area. It is the job of the developers and supporters to make a strong case to convince them to change their minds.

Right now, there are people at the Dept. of City Development and on the Common Council who don't want a stadium in the PE area. It is the job of the developers and supporters to make a strong case to convince them to change their minds.

I would imagine that if they succeed in landing an MLS franchise, there would be sufficient buzz about this to change minds in DCD and on the Council. No one would want to be responsible for letting a bona fide Downtown stadium slip through their fingers, lest they choose a site out in the suburbs, or worse, the franchise skips Milwaukee altogether.

A little something about our competition:

This article from Fox Sports talks about Toronto as an MLS city:

http://msn.foxsports.com/soccer/story/3400906

The gist of the article is this:

Pros to locating the franchise in Toronto:
- They already have a 20,000+ seat soccer stadium.
- The team would become "Canada's team," drawing support from the whole country, which is loaded with soccer nuts.
- A youth soccer registry in Toronto with over 300,000 members (soccer is very popular there)

Cons:
- Toronto is located in Canada, and since the MLS is a US league (and presumably Canada has its own league) it wouldn't work.

I still am cautiously optomistic about this, just because these two guys that form this LLC are hardly pie-in-the-sky dreamers. They've both been involved in developing the Chicago team's stadium, and one currently manages that team.

The Milwaukee County Board Transportation Committee is supporting a plan to demolish the Coutrhouse Annex parking structure and office building which hovers over the northbound lanes of I-43. The County must act qucikly, however, in order to coordinate the demolition work with the reconstruction of the freeway that is now under way in the area. Demolition could occur in March 2006 when those freeway lanes are closed to traffic when the roadway is scheduled to be rebuilt--but a final decision from the County is need by next month.

Replacement parking spaces would have to be acommodated in other nearby surface lots, and a couple possible new lots would be built, according to the County's plan.

Details in the Journal Sentinel: Approvals put annex closer to its demise - County panels vote in favor of using parking lots to replace aging courthouse (http://www.jsonline.com/news/metro/jul05/340758.asp)


***

An expanded article about the soccer proposal in the Journal Sentinel: Group makes soccer plans official (http://www.jsonline.com/news/metro/jul05/340826.asp)

NOOO! not the whales!!!!

heh, ok but atleast it'll show off the grand architecture of the courthouse better.

SCOOOOOOOOOOORE! lol.

Does anyone here listen to Behling or Sykes ever? They both discussed PabstCity on their shows..Behling is strongly against it, Sykes is strongly for it. Both make good points about their views on the development. I was leaning towards being against it. However, what Sykes was talking about today may have changed my opinion...again. If they dont do something about PabstCity now...who is to say they will do anything with it in the future? If they dont decide to build it...these buildings will be unused for years. They will continually get worse over time..probally to bad to use. Also, what developer would even want to do anything with the Pabst Brewery if we happen to shoot down this proposal? Sega, House of Blues, as well as others seem to think that this is a great idea...they wouldnt go somewhere that they wouldnt expect to make money. If they decline this...it could give Milwaukee a bad name with larger companies trying to move in. Also, this proposal of a soccer stadium is kind of changing my views. The soccer stadium would be right down the road from Pabst City and the Bradley Center..as well as some various sports bars. If I am correct, they planned on putting in some pubs, bars, retail, and resturants with the stadium. Couldnt this work to the cities advantage..making the area an actual entertainment distict? Even Water St. isnt THAT far away. I dont know..its starting to sound like a decent idea. You could have people spilling over from Bucks, Admirals, Wave, Marquette, UWM, or the future soccer team to PabstCity. I dont know if PabstCity will be disaster I, as well as alot of you thought it is going to be.

There also is a ton of space in Pabst City--HB, GW only taking up a portion. If they can draw alot of stores, resturants, some bars up there...I think it may be a good idea. Still though, I am worried about public perception of the area.

I never thought Pabst City would be a disaster. I've always believed that the developers could make it successful. I've just never bought the idea that this thing is going to have such huge positive effects on Downtown.

Now I just think Pabst City is inevitable. So we should do what we can to make sure it has the greatest possible benefit to Downtown and the City as a whole. A shuttle would help in that regard.

But with a soccer stadium in the Park East.... that's an intriguing possibility. Soccer in the Park East would get more people on the streets Downtown, out of their cars and that's the GOOOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!

More high-quality development is in store for the Park East corridor. Having demolished the old Milwaukee Center for Independence building, Big Bend Development has finally unveiled plans for a condominium complex for the site. The project, known as The Terraces after the design technique used to accommodate the steeply-sloped site, will planned to include two 13-story towers, one 8-story tower, eight townhouses with small back yards, street-level storefronts, and an underground parking garage with terraced roof gardens. In total, the $45 million development will have 130 one-to-three-bedroom condo units ranging in price from $160,000 to $1 million.

http://graphics.jsonline.com/graphics/bym/img/jul05/condos0715_big.jpg
^ The Terraces project is proposed for a site along E. Ogden Avenue (behind the two glassy towers) between N. Broadway (left) and N. Milwaukee Street (right). The City modified the height restrictions in the Park East corridor master plan to allow the taller towers, which in turn, made more room for on-site open space.

Pending final approval and design tweaks from the City, developers hope to break ground b ythe end of this year, with the first few buildings ready by 2007, and the remainder by 2009.

Details in the Journal Sentinel: Park East condo plan has more than buildings - Design calls for roof gardens, terraced park (http://www.jsonline.com/bym/news/jul05/341091.asp)


***


Meanwhile, over the river a few block away, Brewery Works Inc. is planning to build Pleasant Street Market, a neighborhood shopping center situated at the southern end of the Beerline corridor. The site, at the corner of W. Pleasant and N. Commerce Streets is currently a surface parking lot along the Milwaukee River, but strategically located for retail uses between the Schlitz Park office complex and the booming Brwers Hill and Beerline residential areas.

The $12 million proposal will be built in new urbanist fashion, with buildings up close to the street, wrapped around a parking lot in the middle of the site. It will also include an outdoor plaza and a segment of RiverWalk. The shopping center will be anchored by a yet-to-be-named upscale grocery store owned and operated by John Nehring and Anne Finch-Nehring, who already own several such specialty stores in the Milwaukee area (V. Richards Market; G. Groppi Food Market; the Sendik's in Shorewood, a wine bar/cafe in Shorewood, and a bakery/cafe in Shorewood). Developers are pursuing tenants for the remainder of the space as well, which may include a restaurant, coffee shop, and bank branch. Pending City approvals, developers hope to begin construction this fall with a grand opening next summer.

More info in the Journal Sentinel: Nehrings are in the market for a new venture - Owners of upscale food stores are planning new grocery along river near Brewers Hill (http://www.jsonline.com/bym/news/jul05/341093.asp)

"The Terraces" project looks great! I'm definitely excited about that one! :)

More high-quality development is in store for the Park East corridor. Having demolished the old Milwaukee Center for Independence building, Big Bend Development has finally unveiled plans for a condominium complex for the site. The project, known as The Terraces after the design technique used to accommodate the steeply-sloped site, will planned to include two 13-story towers, one 8-story tower, eight townhouses with small back yards, street-level storefronts, and an underground parking garage with terraced roof gardens. In total, the $45 million development will have 130 one-to-three-bedroom condo units ranging in price from $160,000 to $1 million.

http://graphics.jsonline.com/graphics/bym/img/jul05/condos0715_big.jpg
^ The Terraces project is proposed for a site along E. Ogden Avenue (behind the two glassy towers) between N. Broadway (left) and N. Milwaukee Street (right). The City modified the height restrictions in the Park East corridor master plan to allow the taller towers, which in turn, made more room for on-site open space.

Pending final approval and design tweaks from the City, developers hope to break ground b ythe end of this year, with the first few buildings ready by 2007, and the remainder by 2009.

Details in the Journal Sentinel: Park East condo plan has more than buildings - Design calls for roof gardens, terraced park (http://www.jsonline.com/bym/news/jul05/341091.asp)


***


Meanwhile, over the river a few block away, Brewery Works Inc. is planning to build Pleasant Street Market, a neighborhood shopping center situated at the southern end of the Beerline corridor. The site, at the corner of W. Pleasant and N. Commerce Streets is currently a surface parking lot along the Milwaukee River, but strategically located for retail uses between the Schlitz Park office complex and the booming Brwers Hill and Beerline residential areas.

The $12 million proposal will be built in new urbanist fashion, with buildings up close to the street, wrapped around a parking lot in the middle of the site. It will also include an outdoor plaza and a segment of RiverWalk. The shopping center will be anchored by a yet-to-be-named upscale grocery store owned and operated by John Nehring and Anne Finch-Nehring, who already own several such specialty stores in the Milwaukee area (V. Richards Market; G. Groppi Food Market; the Sendik's in Shorewood, a wine bar/cafe in Shorewood, and a bakery/cafe in Shorewood). Developers are pursuing tenants for the remainder of the space as well, which may include a restaurant, coffee shop, and bank branch. Pending City approvals, developers hope to begin construction this fall with a grand opening next summer.

More info in the Journal Sentinel: Nehrings are in the market for a new venture - Owners of upscale food stores are planning new grocery along river near Brewers Hill (http://www.jsonline.com/bym/news/jul05/341093.asp)

What are the height restrictions there? Can they build taller like 20 plus stories instead?

407, there's no need to repost my entire message and picture just so you can ask a question about it. You do this quite often and it is quite unnecessary. So please stop doing it.


There are height restrictions in the area. That particular site had a restriction of 10 stories, but the City amended it to 13 give the towers a greater height that in turn allowed the developers to create a nice courtyard greenspace in the middle of the block.

There are other sites in the Park East corridor that will allow for taller buildings in the 20-story range.

thanks, the buildings looks great!

i like the bulidings

It was quite the uninformed statement on my part as I thought you were trying to say that Milwaukee shouldn't have an MLS stadium and I was obviously misreading your post. I had no idea it was proposed for the site of Pabst City. I was under the impression it was proposed for the Park East area. My mistake. Sorry about that! :)

We're just having one ginourous miscommunication, I didn't say it was proposed for Pabst City either, I just didn't get your statement and I was looking for clarification...we'll drop it at that :)

I'm glad that the height restrictions were modified for this development allowing 13 stories. The buildings really do look to set a standard for development in the Park East. The open space and rooftop gardens are excellent additions as well. Plus having a backyard, although small, in downtown Milwaukee... WOW! I can just imagine with 601 Ogden being developed close by as well as both the City and County developments in the Park East that we have seen renderings on in this thread going on - it is really starting to look like this area will be pretty hip in 10 years.

As far as the soccer stadium in the Park East, it looks like one of the investors is in some financial happenings from this article in the JS. I would rather have the pro sports stadium than the casino, as the Bradley Center representatives are looking at, any day of the week... Plus it looks like they have focused on a site, and as Markitect has said before, they are seriously looking at the Park East corridor between N. 4th and N. 6th streets.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/metro/jul05/341424.asp

The designs for THE TERRACES are like butter. New developments in the city are setting higher and higher standards, Park East is going to be a melting pot of some interesting design and architecture...WHAT'S NEXT?

If HOB, SEGA Gameworks and Marcus think the Pabst site will generate a favorable revenue stream, wouldn't that be so for other potential entrepreneurs? The demographic story that "supposedly" makes PC compelling enough for them to want to locate there should also make it a good location for others, correct? If that is the case, then we shouldn't have to worry about the Pabst site ever going undeveloped and we can put to rest this stupid justification for using $41 million in tax payer money to develop a site that apparently in the eyes of so many is at the same time perfect for the successful development of an entertainment/retail center, yet if not developed may never be developed again.

In an unrelated note, I absolutely LOVE the look of the Terraces project!

We're just having one ginourous miscommunication, I didn't say it was proposed for Pabst City either, I just didn't get your statement and I was looking for clarification...we'll drop it at that :)

No worries! :)

Downtown Milwaukee is losing another major corporate tenant--at least thankfully, not to the suburbs, but still in the city on the South Side. Rockwell Automation will be moving its corporate offices out of the US Bank Center and into the landmark Rockwell Automation main building (a.k.a. the Allen Bradley building) on S. 2nd Street. Rockwell is working with real estate brokers to find a tenant to sublease the soon-to-be-empty 53,000 square feet of office space in the US Bank Center. It is not yet known if these plans will affect the possibility of developing Lake Point Tower (sister tower to US Bank Center).

This is the second blow to the Downtown office market in the past week. Last week, Blue Cross Blue Shield announced it was vacating its office building at 5th and Michigan Streets and relocating to office space in suburban West Allis.

Full story in the Business Journal: Rockwell exits bank tower - Headquarters moves to south side site (http://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/stories/2005/07/18/story1.html)


***


One of the points of debate among City officals over PabstCity involves an occupancy clause supported by some Common Council members. The clause would require PabstCity developers to have the project's three main anchor tenants (House of Blues--which has reportedly signed a lease already, though there's growing speculation that it actually hasn't yet; SegaGameWorks and Marcus Theaters--neither of which have signed leases yet, but have submitted letters of intent to lease) agree to a 10-year unbreakable lease, basically to prevent them from bailing out. Another proposed amendment would require the city's aldermen to approve a development agreement with PabstCity developers, instead of going through the Department of City Development (which is the standard procedure).

In addition, the developers are pursuing a big-box retailer for 90,000 square feet of space in an existing building along W. Winnebago Street. Rumored to be one of the possible candidates is Best Buy. City officials met with reps from Best Buy during the International Council of Shopping Centers convention back in May, and pitched sites at PabstCity and other locations in the city. Of course, there is also a chance the 90,000 square foot building could be divided into smaller spaces to accommodate smaller retailers.

And some opponents are speculating that PabstCity develoeprs are looking to recruit Wal-Mart, based on a statement made several months ago by Jerry Franke, president of Wispark, saying that they may have to demolish many of the former brewing buildings north of Juneau Avenue "in favor of a new Wal-Mart or other big box retailer."

More in the Business Journal article: A case of the blues for PabstCity - Developers also seek 'big box' retailer (http://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/stories/2005/07/18/story3.html)


***


Here is a guest editorial in the Business Journal from Craig Peterson, president of a public relations and lobbying firm (Zigman Joseph Stephenson) that is representing downtown businesses opposed to the PabstCity proposal. He makes a case for how the House of Blues could be harmful to Milwaukee based on other cities' failed or misled leasing and loan agreements they made with HOB. He also touches the use (or possible misuse) of federal historic tax credits that are supposed to be used to renovate historic buildings, as well as questionable use of the proposed tax increment financing that would also help pay for the project: PabstCity project will make city sing the blues (http://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/stories/2005/07/18/editorial4.html?page=1)


***


Here is a letter from a Business Journal reader, who raises the point that the city and metro need a vision for Downtown Milwaukee that will create a vibrant, walkable, unique, viable place. He suggests that certain proposed developments may actually run counter to creating that vision: Vision needed for downtown Milwaukee (http://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/stories/2005/07/18/editorial5.html)

It seems like there has been a flurry of condos recently announced for the Park East. That area of town is really going to be a great place to live. I'm excited to see how it all turns out.

Does anyone know what percentage of the lots are now taken? And, of those - how many are designated residential? It just seems to me that the Park East is filling up rather quickly.

lake point tower??? in markitects message. any more info on it??

Does anyone know what percentage of the lots are now taken? And, of those - how many are designated residential? It just seems to me that the Park East is filling up rather quickly.

The Park East corridor measures about 64 acres in total. This includes land now vacant where the freeway actually stood (about 16 acres of which is owned by the County and an acre or two by the City), as well as privately-owned land and buildings on the adjacent blocks.

All of the publically-owned land (City and County) is being sold to developers via requests for proposals (RFPs), a process in which interested developers submit their proposals to the City or County (depending on who owns the land) and then the City/County goes through a judging process to see which project would be the most appropriate to have built (among the criteria are urban/architectural design, proposed land uses, and probably most importantly, how much each proposal would eventually contribute to the tax base--to name a few). Each proposal that is selected allows that particular developer the option of buying that particular site so they can move forward and actually build the project. Of course, just being selcted does not automatically give the project a green light--they must get all of the other necessary approvals and financing and everything else before moving ahead.

The small City-owned parcel (less than 2 acres--the only land in the corridor currently owned by the City) is in the process of being sold to the winning developer. Likewise for the first County-owned parcel (about 2 acres). We've posted renderings for those before, so have a look around this thread or the last Milwaukee Development News thread in the North American archives. The County recently issued an RFP for another 2 acres in the Park East area. They seem to be taking their time, moving from east to west through the PE corridor, perhaps to avoid having a bunch of different proposals from a bunch of different developers on a bunch of different sites scattered all over. So most of the publically-owned land has yet to be sold, since they've only issued/approved a few of the RFPs so far.

The privately-owned land in the Park East area works a bit differently because an owner can basically do whatever they want, provided they stay within all of the regulations and codes set forth by the City and go through the proper approval processes. There isn't necessarily a "selection process" involved, because private land owners do not *have* to issue RFPs. A private land owner may already have an idea in mind for redevelopment (as is the case for The Terraces--the developer already owned the land--so there was no City/County selection process for it--and they went ahead and designed their project, and are going through the process of getting everything else approved). Though it is still possible for a private land owner to issue his own RFP to select a developer to work on a project (like if the owner of one of those surface parking lots decides to cash in on their property and sell to whoever he selectes as the winning developer), but that is not required like it is for the publically-owned land.

The renovation of the Sydney Hih building and the demolition of the Pfister & Vogel tannery to make way for new apartments/condos/retail are two other exampes happening on privately-owned land/buildings that have been reported for the PE corridor in the past.

As per the City's redevelopment plan for the area, it is supposed to be predominantly mixed-use.


lake point tower??? in markitects message. any more info on it??

Not really. It's been shrouded in mystery since being announced. Supposedly it is envisioned as a second tower (sometimes refered to as a "twin", though that is almost certainly not to be taken literally) to be built to the south of US Bank. Depending on who you ask, it will either be 42 stories or perhaps much shorter. Nothing will happen with it unless they can land an anchor tenant or two. Developers involved are reportedly looking for an office tenant(s) and possibly a hotel, and several floors of condos. No renderings have been released.

It's a wait and see, not enough information available to be certain kind of thing right now.

The renovation of the Sydney Hih building and the demolition of the Pfister & Vogel tannery to make way for new apartments/condos/retail are two other exampes happening on privately-owned land/buildings that have been reported for the PE corridor in the past.

Has the Mandel Group released any renderings regarding the Pfister & Vogel Development as of yet? I haven't seen any, but just wondering if you have...

Thanks.

Mandel's proposal for the P&V tannery site is supposed to include 500-unit condo and apartment mix; street-level retail space of 25,000 sq ft; and some open space courtyards along a new segment of RiverWalk.

http://www.onmilwaukee.com/images/articles/P_V_200x140.jpg
^ This is a rendering from very early on in the project (2002), showing the worner of N. Water and E. Pleasant Streets. I think the design has gone through some changes though, as it doesn't seem to match up with a site plan I saw a couple years ago, which I'm sure has also changed since then, too.

There was an outdoor MLS stadium proposed for the Park East corridor, on the block just north of the Bradley Center, back in 2001.
Here are the renderings for that old proposal...

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/socc/image/soccer721.jpg

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/socc/image/soccer2721.jpgSorry for dredging old posts, but that looks friggin sweet. I'd have loved to visit and play there. A damn pity

I have been gone for a couple days, and had a lot of catching up to on this thread. I just had couple thoughts on the last few topics here.

First, Eastsider, we live in the same area, and I hope you are right on an upcoming boom here. I actually renewed my lease here, and they raised the rent a whopping five dollars on me from last year. Also, the manager seemed ecstatic that I was saying. I suppose each building has its own unique situation, but I don't expect rents to surge any time soon here. More likely would be condo development.

The Terrance looks great. I'll take those projects any day over a Pabst City.

Speaking of PC, I still think it will be a huge bust due to the location, and unimpressive prosective lists of tenants, but Mark mentioned the idea of landing a major box retailer to the site, specifically a Best Buy. If they can pull that off, I change my stance on the project completely. Best Buys are retail gold, and would be just what is needed to get that project really moving.

Finally, did I stumble into a soccer forum? Everyone seems so excited about this soccer stadium, but I don't get it. Wasn't this already tried, and dropped a couple years ago? Does Milwaukee really need another major league sports team. It can't even fill Miller Park or the Bradley center. This stadium will have more seats than the Bradley center. The Brewers only draw 25000 on average to a game and the Bucks are at 15000. Do you think there are more soccer fans than baseball and basketball fans in the city? When was the last time you saw someone wearing a Wave shirt? And then when was the last time you saw a Brewers or Bucks shirt. Milwaukee already has soccer and hockey, and we are not major leage city for those sports for a reason. Also, Chicago has MLS, and any guesses on their average attendance? 17000 per game in 2004, and a whole 257000 for the year. So why should MLS come here, when they can't draw crowds 90 miles south? My ranting aside, I don't care if they build this stadium if it stays private like it is so far. But I am not wild about the PE. I wish someone could say which parcel is being considered, but it shouldn't be among the best parcels between Mckinely and Juneau. I thought the city had already committed that land to mixed use devleopment, and I think it should stay that way. I also want to throw the Valley out there as a possible site. Has that been considered, and wouldn't that be a decent location? This stadium will be drivers destination no matter what, and the valley is indesperate need of some more development.

im with you usbmfa. That info about chicagos soccer team is very interesting in an urban area of chicago ten times the size of milwaukee's and they can only draw 17000 into soldier field i think a soccer stadium maybe more of a bust than PC.

First, Eastsider, we live in the same area, and I hope you are right on an upcoming boom here. I actually renewed my lease here, and they raised the rent a whopping five dollars on me from last year. Also, the manager seemed ecstatic that I was saying. I suppose each building has its own unique situation, but I don't expect rents to surge any time soon here. More likely would be condo development.

Of course each building has its own unique circumstances, but it isn't unheard of to have large surges in rents at some point. I lived in a place near UWM...Year One = $805/mo; Year Two (renewed lease) = $830/mo [perhaps a renewal "discount, as all other units had new tenants, and much higher rents at that time]; Year Three = $930/mo; moved after that because Year 4 would have been $1100/mo.

Finally, did I stumble into a soccer forum? Everyone seems so excited about this soccer stadium, but I don't get it. Wasn't this already tried, and dropped a couple years ago?

It was dropped because: 1) supporters weren't able to assemble a strong group of investors or ownership group; 2) there was no garauntee a stadium would be completed before the MLS officials were supposed to grant expansion teams; 3) the Bradley Center directors out-muscled the soccer stadium group, because the BC had plans to expand on the same land proposed for that stadium--just to name a few.

This time around, there are different people people involved, some big movers and shakers in the soccer circles that were not around for the last attempt.

Does Milwaukee really need another major league sports team. It can't even fill Miller Park or the Bradley center. This stadium will have more seats than the Bradley center. The Brewers only draw 25000 on average to a game and the Bucks are at 15000. Do you think there are more soccer fans than baseball and basketball fans in the city? When was the last time you saw someone wearing a Wave shirt? And then when was the last time you saw a Brewers or Bucks shirt. Milwaukee already has soccer and hockey, and we are not major leage city for those sports for a reason.

I actually have never had any interest whatsoever in soccer, but even still, I do think you are underestimating the popularity and potential of the sport here in Milwaukee and its suburbs. I do know people do come here from Chicago and Madison to see games at the Uihlein Field on the Northwest Side (but that's not really a location suitable for an MLS stadium--inconvenient to get to, sort of in the middle of nowhere, etc.).

I do, however, think it is unfair to commpare lackluster attendance figures from other sports and apply them to a potential soccer team, since they deal with different fanbase demographics. Apples and oranges.

Also, Chicago has MLS, and any guesses on their average attendance? 17000 per game in 2004, and a whole 257000 for the year. So why should MLS come here, when they can't draw crowds 90 miles south?

Perhaps that 17,000 average attendance figure for Chicago's team is pretty decent, as far as MLS games go?? And that figure is an average, not a maximium, so there are likely some games where there are more seats filled than others.

From talking with actual soccer fans, many are enthused about the possibility of a good Chicago vs. Milwaukee rivalry that could develop--which would definitely put some Chicagoans in the seats up here and vice versa.

And a new soccer stadium is under construction right now (well, maybe not right now, since it's nighttime) to house Chicago's MLS team. Also take note that Peter Wilt, the guy who was instrumental organizing Chicago's MLS team during the 1990s was also instrumental in arranging for their aforementioned under-construction-stadium (they use Soldier Field right now, I think), and he is now the guy in charge of Milwaukee's renewed MLS soccer effort. We aren't dealing with people who don't know what they're doing here.

My ranting aside, I don't care if they build this stadium if it stays private like it is so far. But I am not wild about the PE. I wish someone could say which parcel is being considered, but it shouldn't be among the best parcels between Mckinely and Juneau. I thought the city had already committed that land to mixed use devleopment, and I think it should stay that way.

The specific Park East site has pretty much been confirmed by Peter Wilt--between 4th/6th and Juneau/McKinley--this was mentioned in the article Avissers gave a link to the other day.

And the Park East soccer stadium proposal is mixed-use. The estimated $320 million project includes the stadium, office, retail, and residential (and they've emphasised "family" residential, no less) development. The details are still being being worked out, but so far that seems much more mixed-use than even the relocated casino idea being floated about by various business and political leaders (which is a long shot in its own right, anyway).

I also want to throw the Valley out there as a possible site. Has that been considered, and wouldn't that be a decent location? This stadium will be drivers destination no matter what, and the valley is indesperate need of some more development.

Considering the soccer guys have consistently emphasized a "downtown stadium site," I don't think they're interested in anyplace down in the Valley. Not only that, but to apply a similar spin on a Valley site that you put on the PE site-- The point of a downtown stadium of any kind is to contribute to the excitement and vibrancy of the urban area. They are destinations for everybody, not just drivers--that's the main advantage. And there's the spill over effect that helps contribute to surrounding businesses. No stadium is going to be the savior of downtown, the thing that would be solely respnsible for turning the place around--but they most certainly can contribute positively when they are done right.

That is what this group is out to do.

Could a design competition this fall lead to an actual re-design of the poorly-designed, 1960s-era, inhospitable, unwelcoming, cold-hearted, lackluster, underutilized MacArthur Square at Milwaukee's Civic Center?

That's what Bob Greenstreet, the City's planning director (and dean of UWM's School of Architecture and Urban Planning) wants to know. The Richard and Ethel Herzfeld Foundation--an organization that gioves grants for or educational, cultural and civic projects--is providing he City with $50,000 to host a design competiton to at least come up with some conceptual ideas. Although the Downtown Master Plan already makes a few suggestions for improving MacArthur Square, the design competition could inspire new ideas or explore the possibilities of those outlined in the plan. The competition, however, does not garauntee the square would actually ever get a makeover for real...at least not at this time.

The site has several challenges. Most of the buildings fronting the square actually turn their backs on the square. The main pedestrian level of the square is elevated above surrounding streets; it is actually the roof of the large parking garage below (whcih is leaking and in need of repairs). Because of this, pedestrian access is severely limited to some out-of-the-way stairways and some spiraling pedestrain ramps. The I-43/Kilbourn Avenue on/off ramps burried beneath the underground garage could further complicate matters.

Also, in a separate, yet related effort, the City is currently analyzing the square for general structural and design improvements that are needed anyway, regardless of the competition. The roof is leaking and some interior improvementsare needed to make the garage comply with upgraded building codes (disability access, heating/ventialtion issues, etc.). Such improvements are expected to cost several million dollars. But it is possible that the design competiton could be tied into some of those general maintanece issues, if the City so chooses.

While the scope of the competition invitations hasn't been determined yet, the Herzfeld Foundation president said that due to the small amount of the grant, it would likely be limited to local firms.

Read about it in the Journal Sentinel: Redesign could be rebirth of MacArthur Square - $50,000 grant to fund design competition (http://www.jsonline.com/news/metro/jul05/341944.asp)

Haven't they been trying this for a couple of years? How do we know it won't fall flat on it's face again, especially with the condition of the city's budget?

Obviously, it needs some work, and it has for a long time. First off, it needs more and better access points. It also needs something to do, besides walking around.

I'm not sure if I like Greenstreet's idea of replacing that parking. It's a widely used parking garage for the museum complex, as well as the government buildings around it. I could see where the government building folks could park, but where would museum visitors park? Also, these buildings could get in the way of the view of the courthouse.

My vote is going to be for whomever comes up with the best park idea. Although I don't have one, nor will I be part of the "small, invited group" which will most likely be "whomever has ideas closest to Greenstreet's ideas."

Soccer

From what I understand, what officially killed the soccer proposal back in '01 was the fact that MLS decided they weren't going to expand after all.

These guys behind the push for MLS in Milwaukee do indeed know what they're doing. Their very presence lends much to the credibility of the City's push to get a major league soccer team. MLS will be more likely to choose Milwaukee if its clear that there's a sound, capable, ownership structure in place. That's what these guys represent.

This time MLS says it will add two new teams by '08. This doesn't appear to be an overly-ambitious expansion scheme. So if they do expand by two cities, there's a good chance Milwaukee will be one of them.

Soccer is gaining in popularity in the US, as evidenced by the respectable performance of the US team in the last world cup in '02. At that time I was sucked into "soccer fever" by a friend from West Africa who used to be a professional soccer player on the Liberian national team. I can tell you from personal experience that the enthusiasm for a world-class soccer tournament is infectious as hell. So, if we do get a team, those of you who have no interest in soccer now just might find yourselves out there cheering your voice hoarse.

Downtown Casino

There are a few reasons to put the casino downtown, and many, many reasons not to. It just doesn't make sense, either for the tribe or the City. Why would the tribe give up this newly expanded facility, in a highly visible location, for a whole new facility? Why would the City want a single-use stricture in the middle of the Park East that would have little to no residual effects on other businesses? Casinos do a good job of keeping people in them for long hours, with their own in-house food and entertainment. Very few people will go out to eat or go to a show before or after a casino visit -- because 90% of the people leaving the casino leave broke.

McArthur Square

It will be interesting to see what the design competition produces as a solution to the long-festering problem that is McArthur Square. This could be one the best outdoor spaces in town, like the Courthouse's "front yard." But alas, no one goes there, and no one knows about the awesome statue of Ghandi that stands right in McArthur square right in front of the Courthouse. I think the reason no one goes there is that few people even know it's there. If the designers could come up with a way to make the park more visible, it could help a lot.

MacArthur Square has a great view, but getting up to it is a joke. I'm interested to see if anything happens with this.

Here's one that's been on the back burner for awhile:

Harley Davidson has a website with a conceptual site plan and video about their planned Musuem in the Menomonee Valley:

www.h-dmuseum.com

Things appear to be moving forward on this one. The City agreed to move its DPW facility at 6th & Canal by February of 2006 to make way for the museum. This indeed appears to be happening, as evidenced by the new replacement DPW facility currently under construction at the Tower Automotive site off of 35th & Capitol.

The site plan shows a collection of buildings surrounded by acres and acres of asphalt parking, with green space right on the river's edge. I'm sure Greenstreet will pull them through the ringer for design improvements.

From what I understand, H-D agreed to help the City pay for relocating the DPW facility. If this is the case, then Harley probably has already sunk some substantial money into this, a good sign of it coming to fruition.

Holy Parking, Batman.

Are they going to be utilizing on street parking as well? I hope it will be modified some in terms of the parking layout...

From what I've heard the Harley people think they'll need that much parking so that they can have big motorcycle gatherings at the Museum. I'm sure the City people are working hard trying to get them to scale back the parking. Perhaps a deal can be worked out where Harley can take over the entirety of 6th Street for bike rallies once or twice a year.

I'm not sure if I like Greenstreet's idea of replacing that parking. It's a widely used parking garage for the museum complex, as well as the government buildings around it. I could see where the government building folks could park, but where would museum visitors park? Also, these buildings could get in the way of the view of the courthouse.

Greenstreet envisions that the parking could be replaced or the garage reconfigured, yes...not eliminated. That is the key point. So where else could people park? Obviosuly that is what the desgin competition (which, as has been indicated, is purely suggestive and not a definite plan for implementation) would set out to answer.

As for new buildings getting in the way of the view of the courthouse--no competent designer would ever do such a thing (and speaking of incompetence and bad designers, the view of the courthouse was far better and much grander before the parking garage and tunnels were installed back in the 1960s). As things are now, there are even spaces along the sides of the square that could indeed be developed without obstructing any views.


Are they going to be utilizing on street parking as well? I hope it will be modified some in terms of the parking layout...

From what I've heard the Harley people think they'll need that much parking so that they can have big motorcycle gatherings at the Museum. I'm sure the City people are working hard trying to get them to scale back the parking. Perhaps a deal can be worked out where Harley can take over the entirety of 6th Street for bike rallies once or twice a year.

That conceptual site plan for the Harley museum was released over a year ago, and the video a little less than that. I recall the site design was heavily criticized because of the surface lots right on the main corner when it was first released, and that the City and project architects are/were trying to work with Harley to resolve that issue somehow (hopefully it will be something better than a smiple "landscaping" job).

Another point of contention was that Harley's plan was not going to allow Canal Street to be eventually extended eastward across the Menomonee Canal into Walker's Point, as outlined in the Menomonee Valley Redevelopment Plan (which pre-dates the proposed museum by several years). But I think the City may have conceded that issue.

Every time the dude in the video said "Milwaukee" I cringed.

Knowing the way things work in this city, it will either never happen or it won't look good. I just would like to know more about this "small,invited group."

Every time the dude in the video said "Milwaukee" I cringed.


muhh-walkee???


I think they also stole the bryant and stratton jingle, too.

The message that I got from the video is this:

Harley Davidson is more than just a motorcycle company. It is freedom. It is individuality. It is the very embodiment of the human spirit. To call Harley Davidson a "corporation" is an insult. Harley Davidson is quite simply the most important force for good ever in the history of humanity. To call this new development a "museum" is also an insult, for it will quite simply be the single greatest experience to be had anywhere on the Face of the Earth. This experience on 6th & Canal will make the Eiffel Tower look like a pile of chicken wire scraps. It will make the Taj Mahal look like the a urinal in some two-bit tavern in the North Woods. It will draw millions -- billions -- of people from throughout the world who will come to revel in the greatness that is Harley Davidson, to experience the brand, to touch, taste and feel it. These "pilgrams" will flock to this holy shrine of motorcycles, with their mouths agape and with eyes like saucers, wandering in a zombie like state of reverence toward this .... experience. This Harley Davidson Experience.

And this sacred place will have even more parking than Mecca itself.

Ha! Pretty much, dude. I loved the way they showed the MAM while suggesting that Milwaukee had no landmark cultural institution/architectural marvel. "See this museum thing? This is nothing compared to the Holy Shrine of Culture which Harley Davidson shall build at Sixth and Canal!!!!1"



Fiddler - Um, Briggs?

Fiddler - Um, Briggs?

No, not Briggs...he's right, Bryant & Stratton College. Their commericals play that same music. I've heard it in other ads too, so either it's an actual song or some generic soundtrack composed to be used in the advertising indusrty.

I hate those songs. Who creates that shit anyway?

Every time the dude in the video said "Milwaukee" I cringed.

Ha! I know, his voice was just... odd. All in all an amusing video.

I loved the way they showed the MAM while suggesting that Milwaukee had no landmark cultural institution/architectural marvel."


yeah... that part of the video was not too well thought out imo...

That video is crazy. I mean, we've all seen corporate PR puff pieces, like the video they show on the free Miller tour ("Frederick Miller had a dream.... to brew the world's greatest beer."). They usually make the brand appear like the Greatest Thing That's Ever Happened. But this one is so over-the-top. Just how in the hell do these motorcycles "represent freedom and individuality?" How is tatooing a brand logo on your arm a reflection of individuality? And this place won't be a museum .. it will be an experience. Whatever.

This place looks like it will be something like the Coca Cola museum in Atlanta, or maybe even the Spam museum in Austin, Minnesota: a gigantic brinck and mortar commercial for one product, one brand-name. But I have no doubt it will draw the tourists like moths to a flame.

This place looks like it will be something like the Coca Cola museum in Atlanta, or maybe even the Spam museum in Austin, Minnesota: a gigantic brinck and mortar commercial for one product, one brand-name.

Also, most likely a less than inspiring piece of architecture. I'm just saying...

Every time the dude in the video said "Milwaukee" I cringed.

Me too. "Muhwaukee"? ughh


It sounds like he was doing that on purpose

how about 6TH AND CANAL!!!!!!!!!

There is a piece in the new Shepherd Express regarding Pabst City. I looked online, but could not find on their site, so if you want to read it, you'll have to pick one up. SE basically came out against for PC based on its location and for the reason that PC will not create real ecemonic benefits for the city, just split up people's existing entertainment budgets.

muhh-walkee???


I think they also stole the bryant and stratton jingle, too.

hey guys, news flash: alot of people pronounce Milwaukee that way. But I guess you guys think you`re better than most.

hey guys, news flash: alot of people pronounce Milwaukee that way. But I guess you guys think you`re better than most.

Seriously - what is your deal? Do you have anything related to Milwaukee Development News to say? If not, your not making any friends here. :evil:

Regardless, I can say that yes, I feel Milwaukee has a lot to offer and has that a pretty unique quality you don't find in a lot of major cities - but I guess you'll have to realize that for yourself.

I miss living there everyday (even living in the larger metro area of Dallas, TX).

Does that make those who live there or are passionate about the City better then most - some. But I don't believe that was the point may were trying to make. I believe that with Harley being such a big Milwaukee company and national icon, at least they could hire someone that could pronounce the name of the City the way it should be - regardless of how "a lot" of people pronounce it.

I like your signature!