Storey and Henshaw have made the following pledge

"We wish to look beyond 2008 and to ensure that both council and city have ambitious plans stretching forward to 2020. We commit to putting in place arrangements to start the process of visioning Liverpool for 2020. Progress to be made by autumn 2005."

Maybe this Forum can kick-start the process by doing some of the "blue-sky" thinking before the Council gets round to "start the process of visioning". I just close my eyes and I can "vision" it, as can everyone else with a jot of imagination, ie everyone who posts here.

A few questions that immediately spring to mind, but there must be 100 others.........


What will Liverpool be in 2020 that it isn't now?

Do you want to be resident in Liverpool in 2020, and, if so, where would you like to live?

What will Liverpool feel like, and how will the culture and atmosphere have changed?

What will Liverpool look like?

What role will Liverpool play in its wider region?

What is your greatest fear about what might be wrong with Liverpool in 2020?

What is your most fervent hope about what might go right by 2020?

What big and new developments will people be dreaming of or arguing about in 2020, eg things that may not come to pass until 2030?

Liverpool will have fully taken its place as the "world city" it should aspire and has the potential to be and will be up there with Dublin and Edinburgh.

Merseytram will be completed and we'll be looking at further lines.

We'll have a respectable international airport of reasonable size (we do now but you know...more so)

The economic disparities between the city and the broader country will have levelled out completely.

Maybe lobby for a mayor for Gtr Liverpool?

Ummm, all a bit obvious I know but I guess a lot of these may spring up on their list.

Wow, 2020- The possibilities!

I think by that time Liverpool will have reached a more mature level of regeneration and the economy will be performing at least as good as the UK average with respect to emplyment and GDP per capita.

I think that Liverpool's economy will be based more on tertiary industries such as commerce and other services, with a much lower proportion of the economy (compared to now) consisting of the public sector. I think there will be much more on offer with respect to retail and leisure.

The built environment will be more dense, clean, modern and utilised due to the higher rate of economic activity and subsequent investment. This will act as a virtuous circle- further attracting tourists, business people and students.

The sea port will be a significant feature of the UK's trade, serviced by massively improved rail links.

The scrapping of the NWDA in 2011 ( :) ) lead to greater devolution to city-region localities which has enabled Liverpool's airport, for example, to throw off the yoke of reigonal interference and to expand passenger numbers beyond 15 million per annum.

Culturally, I think the influx of workers and students from outside of the region might act to dilute the local culture, but on the other hand it may become more publicised and enjoyed nationally as outsiders spread the message.

A fear of mine is that the increase in social and economic inequalities (which I think are inevitable as some don't take advantage of new opportunities) will damage social cohesion and result in higher crime levels, and other depravity in the lowest status communities.

Everton will be seven times European champions, Liverpool will be playing out at Gilmoss to crowds of 20,000 in the Coca-Cola Championship and Henshaw & Storey will be long dead and buried. :cheers:

Let's keep it real eh Bunny? :)

Hopefully our civic leaders won't be so embarrassing and self-interested.

Everton will be seven times European champions, Liverpool will be playing out at Gilmoss to crowds of 20,000 in the Coca-Cola Championship and Henshaw & Storey will be long dead and buried. :cheers:

And I'll be sitting on the terrace of my Everton Brow retirement villa, looking out to the Liverpool/Mersey skyline, telling my nurse how much better things were in the 1970/80s :ancient:

I'll be living in Manchester, ranting about how much better my adopted city is :D

No matter where you go you will always be an inbred. :)

I'll be living in Manchester, ranting about how much better my adopted city is :D
They will have legalised human/sheep marriages by then so you will probably have a little flock of woolybacks to look after also. :lol:

I'll be living in Manchester, ranting about how much better my adopted city is :D

I am too hot and bothered to do my own visioning this evening, just reading what others think. But one of the fairly obvious changes by 2020 (which is quite near really) is that Liverpool's status as a city regional centre will have grown and that therefore its spatial spread of influence will have grown.

I think in 2020 people in Preston will be at least as likely to regard Liverpool centre as the place to go for "big city" services, as Manchester. So will people from Wigan. In the long-term, I see the city region extending to include those places - not by local political conquest, just affiliation and natural flows of people who decide where they want to go at Christmas for panto, where to go for specialist medical services, where to go when they fly, where to go for specialist shops and for concerts and exhibitions and other things that only big cities offer.

You are not doing the real 'futures' thing Accura, as you are just imagining things carrying on as they are now. Growing up in Preston now, you aspire to big city life, and think that is best found in Manchester. I believe that a kid of your age in 15 years time will be more likely to regard Liverpool as providing the nearest attractive big city lifestyle.

Fast commuter travel arrangements between Liverpool and places like Colwyn Bay and Preston might be contentious planning issues in 2020, and if you could commute into the centre of Liverpool on a high speed maglev line within 30 minutes don't tell me you wouldn't love it.

I think pj has hit the nail on the head with his comparison to Edinburgh and Dublin - and do note that Edinburgh is a smaller city than Glasgow, which is also a great city, and Dublin is a smaller city than Birmingham, another great city.

I'll be living in Manchester, ranting about how much better my adopted city is :D
As well as the extortionate price of sheep and clogs :)

I just think its great to be around now. We are living in a time of change and optimism. Personally I belong to the Doris Day school of futurology:

Que Sera, Sera
Whatever will be, will be
The future's not ours to see
Que Sera, Sera
What will be, will be.

Storey and Henshaw have made the following pledge

"We wish to look beyond 2008 and to ensure that both council and city have ambitious plans stretching forward to 2020. We commit to putting in place arrangements to start the process of visioning Liverpool for 2020. Progress to be made by autumn 2005."

Maybe this Forum can kick-start the process by doing some of the "blue-sky" thinking before the Council gets round to "start the process of visioning". I just close my eyes and I can "vision" it, as can everyone else with a jot of imagination, ie everyone who posts here.

A few questions that immediately spring to mind, but there must be 100 others.........


What will Liverpool be in 2020 that it isn't now?
Liverpool will be respected and looked upon favourably by the rest of the U.K

Do you want to be resident in Liverpool in 2020, and, if so, where would you like to live? Yes, i would like to live probably anywhere in the city centre.

What will Liverpool feel like, and how will the culture and atmosphere have changed?Probably a lot more wealthy Liverpool people walking around, lots of newcomers, Liverpool will feel much bigger physically.

What will Liverpool look like?
Clean modern, tall, busy 24 hours, street cafe's, trees, colourful.

What role will Liverpool play in its wider region?
Hub for new media, film, music, art, entertainment, technology, port growing, airport growing.

What is your greatest fear about what might be wrong with Liverpool in 2020?We become like any other city, and lose our identity, as people were only in for the financial gains.

What is your most fervent hope about what might go right by 2020?Virtually no unemployment across the whole city, as this will mean every thing else went right, i.e investment, building development, tourism, transport upgrades/tram's, regeneration of derelict areas.

What big and new developments will people be dreaming of or arguing about in 2020, eg things that may not come to pass until 2030?Liverpool hosting new major sporting events. New bridge from wirral to JLA airport expanded into the river.

I am too hot and bothered to do my own visioning this evening, just reading what others think. But one of the fairly obvious changes by 2020 (which is quite near really) is that Liverpool's status as a city regional centre will have grown and that therefore its spatial spread of influence will have grown.

I think in 2020 people in Preston will be at least as likely to regard Liverpool centre as the place to go for "big city" services, as Manchester. So will people from Wigan. In the long-term, I see the city region extending to include those places - not by local political conquest, just affiliation and natural flows of people who decide where they want to go at Christmas for panto, where to go for specialist medical services, where to go when they fly, where to go for specialist shops and for concerts and exhibitions and other things that only big cities offer.

You are not doing the real 'futures' thing Accura, as you are just imagining things carrying on as they are now. Growing up in Preston now, you aspire to big city life, and think that is best found in Manchester. I believe that a kid of your age in 15 years time will be more likely to regard Liverpool as providing the nearest attractive big city lifestyle.

Fast commuter travel arrangements between Liverpool and places like Colwyn Bay and Preston might be contentious planning issues in 2020, and if you could commute into the centre of Liverpool on a high speed maglev line within 30 minutes don't tell me you wouldn't love it.

I think pj has hit the nail on the head with his comparison to Edinburgh and Dublin - and do note that Edinburgh is a smaller city than Glasgow, which is also a great city, and Dublin is a smaller city than Birmingham, another great city.
I think you took my statement a little too literally. I cant be at all certain of where my future will take me, and to be honest I dont spend too much time thinking about it because I know that my future lies here for at least the next 2 years and probably several more after that.
On your first point about Liverpool's growth, do you really want it to grow that much? Personally, I dont want any UK city to end up sprawling too much. We did too much of that with New Towns in the 60's. I'm a big fan of the principle of having large rural gaps between cities. The UK is not an appropriate place for cities to grow as big as they do in China and the rest of Asia. Its too small. We should stick to European principles and keep it manageable and dense. London is a crap example of this. Look how much people HATE travelling across London.
As for Prestonians considering Liverpool or Manchester the place to go for 'big city' stuff in 2020, I doubt it. The Preston city region has its own very exciting 'big city' ambitions to be mostly achieved by the 2012 Guild and its not at all unrealistic. All the autorities are agreeing on it too. By 2012, Preston is expected to rival Sheffield as a city.
You are correct that growing up in Preston I aspire to change, and that change does not necessarily mean leaving. If Preston changes the way it is planned to, then I am more than happy to remain here.
On your point about commuting from Preston to Liverpool, at the moment it is incredibly difficult with no direct rail or motorway link and it somewhat dissappoints me that nothing of the sort is planned at the moment. But if it did happen, I dont see that it would create a huge flow of commuters from here. Every day, 100,000 people commute to Preston (from outside the Central Lancs city region) from across Lancashire to work and shop. It shows that Preston has its own growing business base. Dont get me wrong though. That doesnt mean that I dont want such links to Liverpool. At the moment, the journey by car to Liverpool through West Lancashire is slow and painful. A motorway link (or even a proper dual A-road) would be welcome. At the moment the route is covered by 2 short dual carrigeways. One which runs from the Preston core to Much Hoole (end of Preston conurbation) and one which runs from Maghull to Liverpool's northern docks.

At the moment, the journey by car to Liverpool through West Lancashire is slow and painful. A motorway link (or even a proper dual A-road) would be welcome. At the moment the route is covered by 2 short dual carrigeways. One which runs from the Preston core to Much Hoole (end of Preston conurbation) and one which runs from Maghull to Liverpool's northern docks.

What's wrong with the M6/M58?

^Still a hell of a long way

I'll be living in Manchester, ranting about how much better my adopted city is :D

Manchester..... one of Liverpools eastern suburbs. :cheers:

Manchester..... one of Liverpools eastern suburbs. :cheers:
According to this, its vice-versa lol!
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=173746

That's just Sloyne though. :D

According to this, its vice-versa lol!
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=173746


That's just Sloyne having a bad day,now, not in 2020. :cheers:

Blame Canada!

2020 is due to be the peak of the next Kondratieff cycle, probably specialising in biotechnology. Of course that's just economic. We can't accurately predict what Liverpool will be like as a city, although it should have gradually improved.

I think I agree with everyone (except accy) a bit, but Juxtapol the most.

The image thing is critical, I think that by 2020 Liverpool will be not simply well known the world over, but also generally regarded as a classy and prosperous and "special" city, like an Edinburgh or San Francisco or Vancouver or Vienna. The reality will be that other British cities will also be almost as great - eg Birmingham and Leeds and Manchester - but Liverpool will stand out as the one best known and best regarded for having a unique and special nature.

I think there will be tens of thousands of newcomers - from all over the world but many from countries in Europe - ambitious, well educated, hard-working, entrepreneurial - who come to Liverpool for the quality of life, the social and cultural life, and the business and networking opportunities. Liverpool will be plugged into global circuits of contacts and knowledge by people developing businesses in knowledge-intensive and creative industries. This will start to gel around 2010, and by 2020 new business parks will be busy in previously under-used areas for the businesses that grow from these people. Property prices will price some Liverpool families out to Ormskirk, Warrington, Wrexham and other areas designated for growth within the city region.

Liverpool will have declared UDI from North West institutions by 2011 and will negotiate directly with Brussels, Cardiff and London to agree how public services are delivered in the city region. The City Region will incorporate Clwyd, and the City Regional Assembly and Government will translate all documents and key discussions into Welsh.

The Mersey Estuary Bridge scheme, incorporating the longest airport runway of any British civil airport, will be the subject of a third and final public enquiry, with the Chinese / Indian sponsers having the £20bn money available for an early start. £1bn of that will be compensation to the owners of Manchester Airport for the inevitable bankrupcy of their operation once the new Liverpool Airport opens in 2030.

The Dee Crossing receives in principle approval by the (Liverpool Bay) Regional assembly.

Work starts on the first 1,000 foot tower for Liverpool, on the river front at Woodside.

The Boundary Commission will be consulting on the mooted switch of Wigan from the Manchester to the Liverpool Bay Region.

A swathe of land between Liverpool Cathedral and Sefton Park has become progressively gentrified and intensified, with discreet 5 storey blocks of high quality flats and townhouses providing "2nd generation" homes for people in their 30s and 40s who want a bit of room to live in and raise families, but don't want to leave the centre. Toxteth will start being compared to one of the smarter areas of inner Paris.

Old Scousers will start becoming treated like Old Cockneys in London. A new, connected and prosperous city will be gradually losing its accent and affiliation with an impoverished, challenged and proletarian past. This will be a business city where the old culture created by exploitative dock hiring practices will be history. Some older people will bitterly resent the loss of "their" city to newcomers and change, and will retreat into nostalgia. A prosperous city will cherish them, and subsidise "folk clubs" where they can sing "Leaving of Liverpool" while drinking niche nostalgia brews and smoking specially created faux cigarettes that contain anti-carcinogens.

Liverpolitan, you don't half spout some shite! :lol:

The image thing is critical, I think that by 2020 Liverpool will be not simply well known the world over, but also generally regarded as a classy and prosperous and "special" city, like an Edinburgh or San Francisco or Vancouver or Vienna. The reality will be that other British cities will also be almost as great - eg Birmingham and Leeds and Manchester - but Liverpool will stand out as the one best known and best regarded for having a unique and special nature.


In just 15 years time eh? Ambitious. What do you think will make Liverpool 'stand out' from Birmingham, Leeds and Manchester?

In just 15 years time eh? Ambitious. What do you think will make Liverpool 'stand out' from Birmingham, Leeds and Manchester?

But why not do your own "visioning" in the Manchester Forum? Renaissance cities competed to build the highest towers, as the Great Northern Cities do now, and every town needs to dream a little. I thought Manchester was to become "knowledge capital" or something? There will be spill-over and trickle-down benefits to Manchester from Liverpool doing well, you should not assume that its success will not be good for your city in the long-run.

you should not assume that its success will not be good for your city in the long-run.

I wasn't. I was just wondering, what in particular will make Liverpool 'stand out'?

I wasn't. I was just wondering, what in particular will make Liverpool 'stand out'?

You need to ask, which means you won't understand the answer, as you really shouldn't need to ask. So I will spare you an explanation, and you can continue to disbelieve my prediction. It is okay to do that. Your reaction to my idea of the future does not affect its value, or its potency as a prediction. If you believe I am entirely wrongheaded, then let that be your satisfaction.

He's been smoking something! :lol:

I think I agree with everyone (except accy) a bit, but Juxtapol the most.
Why am I wrong, just because I know that Preston wont be part of the Liverpool city region in 2020? (nor will it ever be)

Why am I wrong, just because I know that Preston wont be part of the Liverpool city region in 2020? (nor will it ever be)

Advanced and specialist legal services. Merchant banking and high-value retail banking. Specialist medical services and facilities. Dense network of regular scheduled air services. A choice of santas and pantos. These are just a random sample of some of the things that a node in a city region will provide.

Add to that cosmopolitanism. That means a regular and productive mix of people and ideas, through a dense concentration of universities, cultural institutions and the "brain" parts of businesses, that is the parts where decisions are formed and made.

Add to that culture, meaning places where the quality and variety of peformance, display and collection is not simply unique but also - as judged by professional peers - special.

There is a lot into making a city a city, accy, and Preston is a nice town but it's not going to compete with a Liverpool or San Francisco or Vancouver or Milan. Does the Liverpool Phil still do its Preston Guildhall residency? That is a symbol that Preston is subordinate in the hierarchy of cities. A great town, now a city, but small and provincial in comparison to Liverpool.

Preston will depend upon other cities to provide the most urban and specialist of services - some (such as choice of a dozen musicals or specialist tax and legal advice) will always be provided by London, which is the premier World City for all of us in the British Isles, but other "big city" services are currently provided by Manchester and Liverpool. All I am saying is that as Liverpool is now recovering after a period of decline, the balance between those two will shift. It's not my wish or imagination, it's just happening, you need to accept that.

You have a funny view, accy, and you need to open up to new possibilities and also the certainty of change. This is about futures, please try to be open and imaginative.

Advanced and specialist legal services. Merchant banking and high-value retail banking. Specialist medical services and facilities. Dense network of regular scheduled air services. A choice of santas and pantos. These are just a random sample of some of the things that a node in a city region will provide.
Preston has all of those except air services, provided by Manchester, Liverpool and Blackpool

Add to that cosmopolitanism. That means a regular and productive mix of people and ideas, through a dense concentration of universities, cultural institutions and the "brain" parts of businesses, that is the parts where decisions are formed and made.
Preston has its fair share of those too. Our industry is still going pretty strong as we are one of the biggest aviation makers in the UK with 2 BAE plants, train makers Alstom have a large plant here, Total Bitumin also have a large factory here and also the largest truck maker in the UK, Leyland Trucks.
We have the 5th largest University in the UK and 6 colleges, one of which is the 3rd best in Europe. On cultural institutions, we have several museums:
-Harris Museum and Art Gallery
-Museum of Lancashire
-National Commercial Vehicle Museum
-South Ribble Museum
-Preston Railway Museum
-Queens Lancashire Regiment Museum
-National Football Museum
In the not too distant future, there is also a huge new cultural quarter planned for the city centre (including a Library to rival both Liverpool and Manchester), a maritime museum is on the cards and UCLAN
recently announced that they would be building a huge new state of the art Media Centre in 2008 and they have already secured funding.
At the moment in terms of venues, we havnt got too much admittedly. Just the Guildhall, Charter Theatre, Preston Playhouse, Worden Park Theatre and the recently opened Students Union + a few more backstreet venues, mainly in old mills and warehouses. Preston has a bigger music scene than most people think:
www.prestone.co.uk
But more is planned in the future. A new arena is being planned in the huge Riverworks Masterplan on the waterfront, a new institution for the Tithebarn Plan and a large venue at one of the major gateways on the A59.

Add to that culture, meaning places where the quality and variety of peformance, display and collection is not simply unique but also - as judged by professional peers - special.
Preston's venues and efforts are considered by all cultural institutions to be more than adequate. Because of this, we we're invited to make a bid to host the World Snooker Championships for the next 5 years, competing with Manchester, Birmingham, Liverpool, Sheffield and Newcastle.

There is a lot into making a city a city, accy, and Preston is a nice town but it's not going to compete with a Liverpool or San Francisco or Vancouver or Milan. Does the Liverpool Phil still do its Preston Guildhall residency? That is a symbol that Preston is subordinate in the hierarchy of cities. A great town, now a city, but small and provincial in comparison to Liverpool.
That about the Liverpool Phil touring around hardly makes Liverpool superior. The same could be said about Scunthorpe United...

Preston will depend upon other cities to provide the most urban and specialist of services - some (such as choice of a dozen musicals or specialist tax and legal advice) will always be provided by London, which is the premier World City for all of us in the British Isles, but other "big city" services are currently provided by Manchester and Liverpool. All I am saying is that as Liverpool is now recovering after a period of decline, the balance between those two will shift. It's not my wish or imagination, it's just happening, you need to accept that.
Yes, you are recovering, and now Preston is having a go as is Blackpool and Blackburn. Being submissive just leads to decline, evidently why regional cities became so crap when allowing London to run everything. Now everybody is fighting back.

You have a funny view, accy, and you need to open up to new possibilities and also the certainty of change. This is about futures, please try to be open and imaginative.
I am very open to change and want the whole country to improve for the better. I just dont accept that Preston will become part of the Liverpool city region, not because I hate Liverpool, but because there is absolutely nothing to suggest that its going to happen. Preston may be nearer to Liverpool than Manchester geographically, but in terms of everything else its a million miles away. There isnt much to suggest that Preston will become part of Manchester region either, except the M61, but thats pretty vague.

Ace post Accy! Well done.

...-South Ribble Museum
-Preston Railway Museum
-Queens Lancashire Regiment Museum


Yes, and it's all good, but it's provincial. A few British cities do and will operate on a bigger canvas in the future, and I think the trends suggest that Liverpool is going to be one of that elite group. Preston is not. I think when you are older and have lived outside Preston, you will begin to appreciate the difference between towns and cities. Currently, I think it's all pretty much the same you. The Louvre, the Tate, the South Ribble Museum.......all museums in accy'land, with no real distinction between them, but when you are older and better educated I think you will form a different view.

Yes, and it's all good, but it's provincial. A few British cities do and will operate on a bigger canvas in the future, and I think the trends suggest that Liverpool is going to be one of that elite group. Preston is not. I think when you are older and have lived outside Preston, you will begin to appreciate the difference between towns and cities. Currently, I think it's all pretty much the same you. The Louvre, the Tate, the South Ribble Museum.......all museums in accy'land, with no real distinction between them, but when you are older and better educated I think you will form a different view.

You must be one of the most deluded patronising wankers I've ever had the misfortune to come across.

How can you say the Lp? You were talking about citys dreaming on the page before, and here you are shunning Preston away.
I for one think that Preston is going to be up there in 15 years time, and i also think that you should have a look at the preston developments thread. They have big plans, which they will fulfill.

You must be one of the most deluded patronising wankers I've ever had the misfortune to come across.

I see that my modest dreams have rattled your cage. But, as I said to CAW, why not have your own dreams? Why not imagine what your own city can become by 2020?

The great cities that are close to each other will inevitably compete to some extent, in terms of function and role, and Manchester has long done that. Capital of the North West. Capital of the North. It's long and often dreamt of some kind of supermacy over its neighbouring cities. But it is clear that has not happened, and now the relative roles are starting to change and will continue to. So your city needs to start imagining a future where it is not being capital of other cities.

As soon as another city or people from it dream a little, you become scared and abusive. How depressing.

I can imagine a fantastic future for Manchester, it's not difficult, and one that doesn't involve it trying to become the "London" of the North and thrive simply by trying to steal all the growth and opportunities by dominating its neighbours. You just need to use your creativity a little more, Weaste, I am sure you have some. Why not start a Manchester 2020 thread and try to imagine good things instead of abusing people in other fora?

How can you say the Lp? You were talking about citys dreaming on the page before, and here you are shunning Preston away.
I for one think that Preston is going to be up there in 15 years time, and i also think that you should have a look at the preston developments thread. They have big plans, which they will fulfill.

Yes, but it's a small city, and people and businesses there will look to bigger cities for some services and functions - just as people in Manchester and Liverpool will turn to London for other services and functions. Cities exist in a chaotic but discernible hierarchy, and Preston can grow and be fantastic and benefit from its relationship with the bigger cities of Manchester and Liverpool. I am simply saying that it will, by 2020, look a little more to Liverpool relative to Manchester for the "big" city services and functions. It's happening anyway, for example through the growth of LJL airport.

Liverpolitan,

Not that I wouldn't like Liverpool to do well for itself (not as well as Manchester but civic pride was bred into me) but what actual changes are going to transform Liverpool from what it is now into San Francisco, Edinburgh and the heavenly city on the hill all rolled into one. Cities do not thrive through sheer force of will but through economic opportunity. Italian cities did well in the renaissance because they were the sources of trade, finance and culture; British cities did well in the nineteenth century because they were the industrial heartland of the world; Asian cities are now doing well because they have huge economic advantages. What will change so rapidly in the next fifteen years in Liverpool to make it how you imagine? Are they going to discover an island off Formby point made of oil, gold and pixie magic?

It would be nice if Liverpool could be that successful. It would be nice if the currently advantaged Manchester could transform itself similarly in such a short space of time. But why should they? You say people will found businesses and that they will thrive, but why will they thrive in Liverpool and not in Manchester, Leeds or Vietnam? I can't prove that what you predict won't come to pass, but I have great doubts, and feel you may be setting yourself up for grave disappointment.

He's been smoking something! :lol:
Yeah, he's been smoking one of those anti-carcenogenic reefers.
He picked it up off a street vendor along with an old Freddy and the Dreamers CD.
Remember, it's the year 2020 and he's still an 'out of towner'. ;)

Liverpolitan,

Not that I wouldn't like Liverpool to do well for itself (not as well as Manchester but civic pride was bred into me) but what actual changes are going to transform Liverpool from what it is now into San Francisco, Edinburgh and the heavenly city on the hill all rolled into one. Cities do not thrive through sheer force of will but through economic opportunity. Italian cities did well in the renaissance because they were the sources of trade, finance and culture; British cities did well in the nineteenth century because they were the industrial heartland of the world; Asian cities are now doing well because they have huge economic advantages. What will change so rapidly in the next fifteen years in Liverpool to make it how you imagine? Are they going to discover an island off Formby point made of oil, gold and pixie magic?

It would be nice if Liverpool could be that successful. It would be nice if the currently advantaged Manchester could transform itself similarly in such a short space of time. But why should they? You say people will found businesses and that they will thrive, but why will they thrive in Liverpool and not in Manchester, Leeds or Vietnam? I can't prove that what you predict won't come to pass, but I have great doubts, and feel you may be setting yourself up for grave disappointment.

Good post, and good questions. I do believe Manchester and the other great Northern cities will equally transform themselves, I was clear that I was talking about global perception rather than economic substance in terms of relative progress. As for why the Great Northern Cities have exceptional capability and potential to prosper in the next 15 years, well, it's a bit late in the day (for me, I get up early), but let me start and I'll probably be able to post something better another day.

Cities are increasingly the loci of growth and development, the places where ideas and opportunities and discoveries are made. By cities, I mean city regions, that is dense but definable urban areas that contain cores, histories, functions and - ultimately - boundaries.

British cities are part of a highly open, flexible and efficient economic system that can tap into and join opportunities all over the world. Manchester is a far more open economy than Lyon, simply because it's in England rather than France, and has advantages of flexibility and cosmopolitanism that Lyon does not enjoy. New Europe versus Old Europe.

The future is increasingly being made by people rahter than corporations, and people who have choice. Locational choice. A kid growing up in a dismal suburb of Mumbai or Warsaw can develop a business in Vancouver or Valencia or..........Liverpool. My contention is that Liverpool, because of its cultural, social and geographical advantages - and its special "x" factor - is going to pick up on some of that. So will other cities, I am not saying Liverpool will be home to more nano-technology companies than Leeds or Birmingham or Preston even, just that they will be there. It can provide a fantastic qualtiy of life in its beautiful centre and fantastic near-centre Georgian suburbs, and now its residential towers. A lot more needs to happen, a hell of a lot more, but I believe that is unstoppable.

I think you may have misunderstood some of what I said. All the Northern Cities have this potential, but some are traditionally more cosmopolitan and trading than others, and some potentially offer better connections and quality of life than others. But once you get 10,000 highly skilled and educated and ambitious people, and then another 10,000, all living within a few square miles, I think you have a potentially explosive mix of talent and opportunity. It exists for Manchester as well. But, beacuse Liverpool is reversing the effects of a period of relative decline, it is going to expand its sphere of influence more. It's not an aggressive or nasty point, its just reality. Where do you think the shoppers to Paradise Street are going to come from? They aren't all coming from Liverpool.

Some interesting thoughts on the future vision but transport links to Merseyside need to be improved. At the moment they are getting less not increasing.

If it's hard to get to Merseyside, people will be put off going. Believe me, it's happening now from the region I now live in.

I wonder if Junction 2 of the M58 will ever be built? It's just crying out for an M59 link road to Accyland.

British cities are part of a highly open, flexible and efficient economic system that can tap into and join opportunities all over the world. Manchester is a far more open economy than Lyon, simply because it's in England rather than France, and has advantages of flexibility and cosmopolitanism that Lyon does not enjoy. New Europe versus Old Europe.

The future is increasingly being made by people rahter than corporations, and people who have choice. Locational choice. A kid growing up in a dismal suburb of Mumbai or Warsaw can develop a business in Vancouver or Valencia or..........Liverpool. My contention is that Liverpool, because of its cultural, social and geographical advantages - and its special "x" factor - is going to pick up on some of that. So will other cities, I am not saying Liverpool will be home to more nano-technology companies than Leeds or Birmingham or Preston even, just that they will be there. It can provide a fantastic qualtiy of life in its beautiful centre and fantastic near-centre Georgian suburbs, and now its residential towers. A lot more needs to happen, a hell of a lot more, but I believe that is unstoppable.

I think you may have misunderstood some of what I said. All the Northern Cities have this potential, but some are traditionally more cosmopolitan and trading than others, and some potentially offer better connections and quality of life than others. But once you get 10,000 highly skilled and educated and ambitious people, and then another 10,000, all living within a few square miles, I think you have a potentially explosive mix of talent and opportunity. It exists for Manchester as well. But, beacuse Liverpool is reversing the effects of a period of relative decline, it is going to expand its sphere of influence more. It's not an aggressive or nasty point, its just reality. Where do you think the shoppers to Paradise Street are going to come from? They aren't all coming from Liverpool.

Good post Poli. Of course there are hurdles to Liverpool's future growth, e.g. transport links, but there is absolutely no reason whatsoever why these cannot be overcome. Time will tell. I think Liverpool MOST DEFINITELY has an X factor that outsiders identify and take away with them. I have worked with several people who lived in Lpool during the 1970s (-bearing in mind this was a bad time for Liverpool) and to this day talk about their fond memories of the city. They always talk about how fantastic the people are and in particular mention the very strong sense of place.- This factor is fundamental to a city's identity, and the strength of Liverpool's makes it a place that people remember and want to return to.

The only real advantage Manc has at the moment is that it started regenerating earlier (-basically by the sheer chance factor that the IRA bombed it). This means that at this moment in time Manc might have more services on offer which appeals to people. However, and I think Liverpolitan is trying to say this, once Liverpool's renaissance works its magic on the economy- Manchester's principal advantage over Lpool will have disappeared. Because Liverpool has so much more before we even start talking about economic factors.

The X factor, the sense of place, the culture, the friendly nature of its people. No matter what anybody says these things are facts and I know this becuase of the countless, educated people I have spoken to. The people who usually slate Lpool are usually either stupid (i.e. havn't been there), from Manchester (and more likely therefore to just be nasty and insulting*), or from a vile town in darkest Lancashire.

* = Why is it that the Manc forumers hi jack a perfectly innocent and light hearted thread on the Liverpool forum? Do you little teen aged wankers message each other?- funny how you all come on here at the same time talking rubbish. If the likes of Liverpolitan talk such rubbish then why are you always so eager to respond? Because you are afraid that he might be right, that's why, you arse holes.

LP. you can't half wind those Mancs up.
Keep up the good work,your posts are most enjoyable. :cheers: :cheers:

LP. you can't half wind those Mancs up.
Keep up the good work,your posts are most enjoyable.

The blind leading the blind. :lol:

For those serious Liverpool forum members! :)

Theres a Liverpool stand at the GMEX Property Show.

Lots of interesting stuff!

Ps. Why don't you try it LP(arf!)

You do LIVE in Manchester! :laugh:

* = Why is it that the Manc forumers hi jack a perfectly innocent and light hearted thread on the Liverpool forum? Do you little teen aged wankers message each other?- funny how you all come on here at the same time talking rubbish. If the likes of Liverpolitan talk such rubbish then why are you always so eager to respond? Because you are afraid that he might be right, that's why, you arse holes.

:lol:

No, because he posts shite like this:

The Mersey Estuary Bridge scheme, incorporating the longest airport runway of any British civil airport, will be the subject of a third and final public enquiry, with the Chinese / Indian sponsers having the £20bn money available for an early start. £1bn of that will be compensation to the owners of Manchester Airport for the inevitable bankrupcy of their operation once the new Liverpool Airport opens in 2030.

He's either a comedian of the Stan Boardman genre or he really is living in a castle in the air.

He would probably describe himself as a Platonist however. Loon!

You need to ask, which means you won't understand the answer, as you really shouldn't need to ask. So I will spare you an explanation, and you can continue to disbelieve my prediction.

Oh come on, you are being silly now, what will make Liverpool 'stand out'? Why is that so hard to answer? Don't dance around with some poncy pretentious 'you won't understand' answer. You said;

The image thing is critical, I think that by 2020 Liverpool will be not simply well known the world over, but also generally regarded as a classy and prosperous and "special" city, like an Edinburgh or San Francisco or Vancouver or Vienna. The reality will be that other British cities will also be almost as great - eg Birmingham and Leeds and Manchester - but Liverpool will stand out as the one best known and best regarded for having a unique and special nature.

All I'm asking is for you to quite simply back this up.

Oh come on, you are being silly now, what will make Liverpool 'stand out'? Why is that so hard to answer? Don't dance around with some poncy pretentious 'you won't understand' answer. You said;



All I'm asking is for you to quite simply back this up.
You know as well as we do. It's the people. If ever evidence was needed that manchester people are pathologically jealous of Liverpool,it's here for all to see on this forum. So save your inane responses. We know and so do you.

Jealous of what exactly? Seriously, anyone who seriously believes that, going off the members of this forum, is criminally deluded. :laugh:

I don't see Manchester forumers playing the blame game and pointing fingers at the fortunes of other cities, as some kind of therapy and explanation for our own failings. Yet the Lpool forum is rife with tripe like that. :lol:

Jealous of what exactly? Seriously, anyone who seriously believes that, going off the members of this forum, is criminally deluded. :laugh:

I don't see Manchester forumers playing the blame game and pointing fingers at the fortunes of other cities, as some kind of therapy and explanation for our own failings. Yet the Lpool forum is rife with tripe like that. :lol:
Very predictable.

All I'm asking is for you to quite simply back this up.

The role the city played in the development of the new world ensures it lives on as a collective memory in the minds of millions in those parts of the world. "my family left from Ireland via, Liverpool" etc. Plus The Beatles.
Whether you like it or not Liverpool is one of the few other cities in England that people around the world can name with ease.
Of course once people actually visit they walk out the station and are immediately confronted by St Georges Hall. "This is a place of note" is what that structure is meant to make people think when they arrive....and many do. 8 museums, 2 cathedrals, and a few days emersion in the scouse twang - voted the favourite accent in Europe in one poll - and they know it.

Manchester is a great city as well. But if you want to do the same sort of thing you have to concentrate on the romantic aspects that will capture peoples imaginations. In your case I would say that is making more of your role as the first industrial city, Lowry and stuff like that - that will spark peoples imaginations and give you a distinct brand to sell. You're trying to be a mini-London, and that (to me at least) is something you'll have a hard time getting the world to believe.

Very predictable.


You didn't answer his question though, jealous of what exactly?

The carribean type climate?

At least it's true.

Of course Liverpool has an image of friendly people (not prevalent with many on here though, I have to say), but seriously, is that alone going to elevate the city to the heights of San Francisco and Vancouver? I don't think so. There must be something to add to that. I asked Liverpolitan, he couldn't answer, surely someone else can?

At least it's true.

Of course Liverpool has an image of friendly people


Actually, I had to go down to Liverpool, last year, and the locals were pretty friendly. . .

The only real advantage Manc has at the moment is that it started regenerating earlier (-basically by the sheer chance factor that the IRA bombed it). This means that at this moment in time Manc might have more services on offer which appeals to people. However, and I think Liverpolitan is trying to say this, once Liverpool's renaissance works its magic on the economy- Manchester's principal advantage over Lpool will have disappeared. Because Liverpool has so much more before we even start talking about economic factors.

Like what? Please tell me! And please don't say the 3 graces and the waterfront! You need a bit more than that!

* = Why is it that the Manc forumers hi jack a perfectly innocent and light hearted thread on the Liverpool forum? Do you little teen aged wankers message each other?- funny how you all come on here at the same time talking rubbish. If the likes of Liverpolitan talk such rubbish then why are you always so eager to respond? Because you are afraid that he might be right, that's why, you arse holes.

Its becuase you have this perpetual habit of mentioning Manchester in most of your none Manchester threads! :)

Anyway, I thought this was a 'Liverpool 2020 vision thread', not a 'Liverpool Manchester comparison 2020 vision thread?'

So please tell me!

1.Why do some of you always mention Manchester in your Liverpool development threads?

2.Why do you always try to compare Liverpool to Manchester?(present and future)

3.Why do some of you always aspire to this notion that Liverpool will one day catch up with Manchester? It won't

4. Go on to any of the Manchester threads, there is no mention of Liverpool! Ask yourself why?

Let me tell you straight! After hearing and seeing what I did this week! Liverpool will NEVER catch Manchester up!
Infact, the gap will become bigger! Trust me!

People like Neoploltian live in a dream world! A bit like me really! I dream of City becoming bigger and better than Manchester United! Deep down I know they won't! But I can still keep on dreaming can't I! :)

Ps. I don't come on here to argue! But when I see rubbish like the quotes above, I have to reply! :)

People like Neoploltian live in a dream world! A bit like me really! I dream of City becoming bigger and better than Manchester United! Deep down I know they won't! But I can still keep on dreaming can't i :)


Best and most truthful thing you've ever said!!!!


;)

3.Why do some of you always aspire to this notion that Liverpool will one day catch up with Manchester? It won't



Why, does it bother you so much that it might?

Why should it bother me PJ?

It won't ever happen!

Does it bother you?

Jealous of what exactly? Seriously, anyone who seriously believes that, going off the members of this forum, is criminally deluded. :laugh:

I don't see Manchester forumers playing the blame game and pointing fingers at the fortunes of other cities, as some kind of therapy and explanation for our own failings. Yet the Lpool forum is rife with tripe like that. :lol:

Maybe the fact that Liverpool is the home of the European Champions.... hehe

Maybe the fact that Liverpool is the home of the European Champions.... hehe
Hey Boy...you might have a 'European Champion' but Manchester's got a WORLD CHAMPION.......Ricky Hatton!!!! :bleh:
.....get outta that!!

Hey Boy...you might have a 'European Champion' but Manchester's got a WORLD CHAMPION.......Ricky Hatton!!!! :bleh:
.....[I]get outta that!!
And a world champion shit disturber in Sir Piles Shitting. By the way Piles, how about some proof for the stories you tell? You remember? the "barefoot, starving, thieving, abused street urchins" you said you encountered whenever you visited Liverpool, you remember? when you dreamed you docked on ships that had stopped sailing a decade before the dates you gave.

Maybe you would like to return to the frorum of the worlds biggest city with the worlds biggest everything insteaded of trolling this forum.
:bash:

Hey Boy...you might have a 'European Champion' but Manchester's got a WORLD CHAMPION.......Ricky Hatton!!!! :bleh:
.....get outta that!!

I'm positive you'd swap that for the Champions League!!

At least it's true.

Of course Liverpool has an image of friendly people (not prevalent with many on here though, I have to say), but seriously, is that alone going to elevate the city to the heights Vancouver? I

What heights are you talking about? Vancouver is a coastal city in a beautiful setting. However, Vancouver is also a city that has not only failed to exploit, through it's built environment, it's geographic position but has, instead, made a mess of it. The only building of any architectural interest is the cruise teminal. The only really interesting profile of the Vancouver skyline is from Granville Island. Let us hope that Liverpool does NOT aspire to be another Vancouver.

What heights are you talking about? Vancouver is a coastal city in a beautiful setting. However, Vancouver is also a city that has not only failed to exploit, through it's built environment, it's geographic position but has, instead, made a mess of it. The only building of any architectural interest is the cruise teminal. The only really interesting profile of the Vancouver skyline is from Granville Island. Let us hope that Liverpool does NOT aspire to be another Vancouver.
Unfortunately the problems you describe in Vancouver are evident in all Canadian cities.

Manchester is a great city as well. But if you want to do the same sort of thing you have to concentrate on the romantic aspects that will capture peoples imaginations.
Romantic, yes, but naming a concert hall for a industrial capitalist canal builder instead of one of the worlds late great musical directors, Sir John Barbarolli, does not conjure up a picture of Romanticism now does it? However, I do think that the only thing not making the Lowry as reknowned as the Guggenheim in Balbao is the lack of recognition, world wide, of Lowry. The buildings, however, are a stunning example of architecture complimenting the location and, vice versa. Congratulations Manchester!

Unfortunately the problems you describe in Vancouver are evident in all Canadian cities.
How would you know????????????

How would you know????????????
Well lets just look at Toronto shall we... Dozens and dozens of commie blocks surrounding massive concrete roads. Hardly a victory for urban planning is it.

http://www.aerialphotography.ca/images/TORONTO%20SKYLINE%20100.JPG

I can see about half a dozen reasonable buildings in there and maybe about two or three I'd want in Manchester.

1.Why do some of you always mention Manchester in your Liverpool development threads?

2.Why do you always try to compare Liverpool to Manchester?(present and future)

3.Why do some of you always aspire to this notion that Liverpool will one day catch up with Manchester? It won't!

I'm glad no one tried to answer my questions! :)

I take it you all agree with me then? :colgate:

Ps. Say no to thread boosting and spam! :spam1:

Hey Boy...you might have a 'European Champion' but Manchester's got a WORLD CHAMPION.......Ricky Hatton!!!! :bleh:
.....get outta that!!

Dont worry about that, in December Liverpool will also have a world champion when LFC win the world club championship

Either that JRB or people can't be bothered engaging in any more of your infantile baiting.

Well lets just look at Toronto shall we... Dozens and dozens of commie blocks surrounding massive concrete roads. Hardly a victory for urban planning is it.

The picture you posted is at least 25 years out of date and it is easy to spot, by anyone who knows Toronto. For one thing, the excavation work for what became one of the worlds finest concert halls is visable at the foot of the CN Tower and that building, opened in 1982, has been open for 23 years now.

A word of advice to one who has not ventured further west than Wigan; DirtyBit, you really do need to seek more contemporary pics when surfing the net. :bash:

Either that JRB or people can't be bothered engaging in any more of your infantile baiting.

Why, does it bother you so much that it might?

You were saying PJ?

The picture you posted is at least 25 years out of date and it is easy to spot, by anyone who knows Toronto. For one thing, the excavation work for what became one of the worlds finest concert halls is visable at the foot of the CN Tower and that building, opened in 1982, has been open for 23 years now.

A word of advice to one who has not ventured further west than Wigan; DirtyBit, you really do need to seek more contemporary pics when surfing the net. :bash:
sloyne, the simple fact is that most of the buildings in that picture are absolutely foul and are still a part of the Toronto skyline. The fact a couple of buildings have been thrown up inbetween is completely irrelevant. It's simply the case that Toronto is a prime example of the awful Canadian urban planning.

More examples (newer ones just for you :)):

http://img120.echo.cx/img120/8455/2507picture2485fq.jpg

http://img120.echo.cx/img120/6229/2507picture2526xi.jpg

The fact is that Toronto is awful! It's only redeeming feature is that it's skyline looks quite nice from a distance.

Let me tell you straight! After hearing and seeing what I did this week! Liverpool will NEVER catch Manchester up!
Infact, the gap will become bigger! Trust me!
How the hell do you know? And who gives a flying shit anyway? Manchester can disappear up its own arse for all I care.

I'm not getting into the nonsense, and CAW I'm certainly not prepared to discuss with you here the 'x' factor or other factors discussed often on these threads that I believe gives Liverpool a decisive advantage. I refer you to very many previous postings and threads, and dont' care one bit if you lack the imagination or comprehension to understand just why this particular city and a lot of people inside and outside it believe it to have a special character. If you shared their view, you would not have asked your question. You asked the question, meaning you need to be told, which means you don't get it. For what it's worth, personally I don't think the 'x' factor has got much to do with the people, friendly or otherwise, but I respect the views of those who do.

And why mention Manchester or other towns (I have also mentioned Preston, Wigan, Warrington, Wrexham, Ormskirk, Dublin, Edinburgh, Vancouver, Valencia, Mumbai, San Francisco, Warsaw, Vienna, Paris and London on my posts on this thread)? In case of Manchester (who are the only ones to complain), its for quite specific reasons, and since they have been misunderstood, let me explain.

City regional governance is going to be a hot issue, and as the Liverpool and Manchester city regions sit next to each other, the boundary will have to be drawn somewhere. It will not fixed in stone, it will probably move from time to time. Currently Manchester counts Wigan as being a part of its City Region, and would like to count Warrington (although that is not reciprocated to any great extent, I gather). But by 2020 I think the influence and pull of the two cities will be quite different, relatively, meaning the boundary could well shift. That is why I had to mention it, because its relevant. Once Liverpool recovers and grows, it can extend the tax base for strategic investments to include a wider area. It's more about taxes and the ability to plan stategically, than it is about crude population numbers (although I know some are obsessed with those). Anyway, it's not Manchester-bashing to point out that Liverpools' influence over "buffer" towns such as Wigan, Warrington and Preston is growing and will have grown significantly by 2020.

The more that people from those places visit Liverpool regularly, the more likely they are to start seeing themselves as part of a Liverpool Bay region, rather than some kind of Greater Greater Manchester. We know that many in Wigan have never been comfortable within the Greater Manchester orbit anyway, and they might feel more comfortable in a unified district with St Helens within a Liverpool Bay region.

The airport is another area where its not sensible to discuss significant development at one without mentioning the potential impact on the other. Hence I felt that if private enterprise were ever given the chance to simply build the non-London runway that will be needed, it was likely that Manchester might block it endlessly unless they received compensation for losses when all the majors pulled out and moved to a new bigger airport down the road. I don't see how that bashes another City. I had been considerate and thought through the implications of a major new airport development at Liverpool on neighbours.

I wish the Manchester guests would just go to their Forum and dream about the future of their own city - it is quite obvious they are anxious about the potential of Liverpool to steal their thunder internationally, and you can't blame them for not liking it, but it's increasingly the way things are going to be, in my opinion. In time I think they will adjust to reality.

:laugh: I think we should all just leave liverpolitan to his little dream. After all, we all know that's all it is anyway.

To be honest I don't think those born and bred in Warrington, Wigan or Preston are going to be very enthusiatic about being lumped into a city region with either Manchester or Liverpool. It's up in the air which they would be with in 2020.


The picture you posted is at least 25 years out of date and it is easy to spot, by anyone who knows Toronto. For one thing, the excavation work for what became one of the worlds finest concert halls is visable at the foot of the CN Tower and that building, opened in 1982, has been open for 23 years now.


No Sloyne, at the most that photo could be 14 years out of date, the Bay Wellington Tower is there, that was completed in 1991.

caw123 act now!
caw123, it is obviouse to me, and I would venture most others on this forum, that EarlyBird, Sir Miles Platting and jrb are trolling this forum. They are disruptive and offer nothing, intelligent, to the discussion and are just provocing argument for arguments sake. I would respectfully request that you use your powers to curb the childish outburst and order they cease and desist from any further disruption of this forum and allow for the enjoyment of those seriously interested in the built environment of the City of Liverpool.

I no longer participate in the Manchester forum due to the disruptive nature of the postings by these same three people.

Thank you for your prompt attention to this matter.

caw123 act now!
caw123, it is obviouse to me, and I would venture most others on this forum, that EarlyBird, Sir Miles Platting and jrb are trolling this forum. They are disruptive and offer nothing, intelligent, to the discussion and are just provocing argument for arguments sake. I would respectfully request that you use your powers to curb the childish outburst and order they cease and desist from any further disruption of this forum and allow for the enjoyment of those seriously interested in the built environment of the City of Liverpool.

I no longer participate in the Manchester forum due to the disruptive nature of the postings by these same three people.

Thank you for your prompt attention to this matter.
If having an opinion and feeling free enough to state it when questioned is trolling then I admit it 100%.

You were saying PJ?

I'd hardly call defending my city and hoping for the best "baiting"

It speaks volumes that you would think it was.

I'd hardly call defending my city and hoping for the best "baiting"

It speaks volumes that you would think it was.
And what makes your contribution "defending my city" and theirs "baiting"? Is it defending the city if you claim Liverpool is going to be doing better but baiting if you claim Manchester will?

I would suggest that everyone on this forum ignore any posts by EarlyBird, Sir Miles Platting and jrb, these three are very disruptive and agent provocatuers and serve no purpose but to disrupt the normal ebb and flow of ideas on this, the Liverpool Forum. Please ignore them.

I have sent a message, in open forum, requesting the moderator take action against the disruptive influence of this trio, it will be interesting to see what measure of impartiality our moderator displays.

Personally sloyne I think it's you deliberately setting out to be disruptive. It seems like every time someone contradicts one of your claims you accuse them of trolling and ask for them to be banned. Obviously not when the person who contradicts you is a moderator though...

And what makes your contribution "defending my city" and theirs "baiting"? Is it defending the city if you claim Liverpool is going to be doing better but baiting if you claim Manchester will?

EB, I started this thread to stimulate ideas about the medium term future of Liverpool, and as a place where people could just imagine and discuss. Your posts are not doing that at all, if anything they are killing off discussion of the toipc. I am not taking sides, but I hope you will not mind me asking if you can please try to stay remotely on topic. I haven't seen a single post from you on this thread that even pretends to address the topic, which is ideas about how Liverpool may look and feel in 2020, and issues that will be hot then as regards planning.

There are so few places where those with a serious interest in the future of cities can talk to others on the net, and it is annoying that simply because you are hyper-sensitive to any perceived threat to the primacy of your city you feel obliged and entitled to disrupt such a thread. I've just reviewed this entire thread, and it's quite clear that there are some good posts, serious and light-hearted, that have been drowned out by the repetitive, childish and obsessive off-topicness of a few disruptive individuals.

I agree with Sloyne that Sir Miles Platting, in particular, should be censured for his repeatedly disruptive and potty-mouthed nonsense. He knows no better. You, however, are at least intelligent, and are capable of interesting and informative contributions when and where you wish to make them. So please can you direct your energies towards another thread unless you are seriously interested in thinking creatively about scenarios and ideas for the future of Liverpool?

EB, I started this thread to stimulate ideas about the medium term future of Liverpool, and as a place where people could just imagine and discuss. Your posts are not doing that at all, if anything they are killing off discussion of the toipc. I am not taking sides, but I hope you will not mind me asking if you can please try to stay remotely on topic. I haven't seen a single post from you on this thread that even pretends to address the topic, which is ideas about how Liverpool may look and feel in 2020, and issues that will be hot then as regards planning.

There are so few places where those with a serious interest in the future of cities can talk to others on the net, and it is annoying that simply because you are hyper-sensitive to any perceived threat to the primacy of your city you feel obliged and entitled to disrupt such a thread. I've just reviewed this entire thread, and it's quite clear that there are some good posts, serious and light-hearted, that have been drowned out by the repetitive, childish and obsessive off-topicness of a few disruptive individuals.
The only reason I posted at all was with regard to sloyne's comment about urban planning in Vancouver. If I'm not allowed to reply to comments made by other forumers then what is the world coming to?

The only reason I posted at all was with regard to sloyne's comment about urban planning in Vancouver. If I'm not allowed to reply to comments made by other forumers then what is the world coming to?

Fine, I am not taking sides I just wish that occasionally you could rise above it. You seem to think that because someone is "wrong" or "incorrect" in your eyes that they must be corrected. If someone states a fact that is wrong, you feel obliged to correct them. But it is disruptive to the flow.

Declare yourself the winner, the victor in whatever discussion you were having with Sloyne or me or anyone else. I don't care. Neither should you. You are old enough and intelligent enough to know better. You won, now please attend to the topic.

Close your eyes, breathe deeply and slowly, and start to travel into the future. The sound of music is changing. The appearance of cars is changing. Things that are now cool are starting to look ridiculous, dated. You are ageing, so is everyone you know. You are 15 years into the future........you wake up with a start and realise you are in a hotel room, you have had a wonderful nights sleep, you feel fresh, happy, and you open the blinds and are temporarily blinded by the light, confused, you see a river, and looking around further, you realise that it is the Mersey! What are you doing there? You don't know, but you are intrigued. You decide to go on a stroll.....

Early Bird,My god you're back.
It's not true then, you didn't die of worms.

Early Bird,My god you're back.
It's not true then, you didn't die of worms.

Kung I have just put EB in a "futuroligists trance" and he is composing a fantastical diary of a day he spends in Liverpool in 2020.

No Sloyne, at the most that photo could be 14 years out of date, the Bay Wellington Tower is there, that was completed in 1991.
The construction ended in 1991 but the building was topped-out in 1988. And just how would you account for the lack of Roy Thompson Hall in the picture? You do conceed that the hall was opened in 1982, dont you? If not I will scan in the program of the innaugral concert which will, clearly, show you the date. Also, the old school uniform factory (forget the company name, McCarthy I think) is still standing and that was lost in a spectacular fire in 1986. And just one other item, the Spadina Bridge of the CN tracks, the old iron bridge wasnt replaced until 1986. So that brings us to a 19 year difference. But whose splitting hairs ? I do, however, appreciate your impartial input.

The construction ended in 1991 but the building was topped-out in 1988. And just how would you account for the lack of Roy Thompson Hall in the picture? You do conceed that the hall was opened in 1982, dont you? If not I will scan in the program of the innaugral concert which will, clearly, show you the date. Also, the old school uniform factory (forget the company name, McCarthy I think) is still standing and that was lost in a spectacular fire in 1986. And just one other item, the Spadina Bridge of the CN tracks, the old iron bridge wasnt replaced until 1986. So that brings us to a 19 year difference. But whose splitting hairs ? I do, however, appreciate your impartial input.

Okay, well personally I am convinced you are right, but I am also wondering if this has gone seriously off-topic, unless there are some lessons from Toronto for the future of Liverpool, which there may be. But whatever they are, they are now lost.

I am not going to put you in a futurologists trance, as I did with Earlybird - my spells don't cross oceans - but Sloyne perhaps you could voluntarily imagine waking up on cruise ship, a huge one, not yet built, at the Pier Head, on June 25th, 2020. What will you see? Not the ship, the city (but if you want to talk about the ship first who am I to try to stop you).

I'd hopefully see the 3 graces totally unobscured, with Brunswick Quay dwarfed by 10 taller towers around it. :yes:

The construction ended in 1991 but the building was topped-out in 1988. And just how would you account for the lack of Roy Thompson Hall in the picture? You do conceed that the hall was opened in 1982, dont you? If not I will scan in the program of the innaugral concert which will, clearly, show you the date. Also, the old school uniform factory (forget the company name, McCarthy I think) is still standing and that was lost in a spectacular fire in 1986. And just one other item, the Spadina Bridge of the CN tracks, the old iron bridge wasnt replaced until 1986. So that brings us to a 19 year difference. But whose splitting hairs ? I do, however, appreciate your impartial input.

What about Scotia Plaza? That begun in 1985 and opened in 1988. In that photo it is topped out and fully clad. Can't have done that by 1986.

[QUOTE
3.Why do some of you always aspire to this notion that Liverpool will one day catch up with Manchester? It won't.

We may well be deluded slightly but most of us here think that we are the number one city in the U.K.
The famous scouse saying goes.. which is the second city in Britain. answer.. London.

4. Go on to any of the Manchester threads, there is no mention of Liverpool! Ask yourself why?

Because you're all on here slagging us off :cheers:

QUOTE]

:cheers:

What about Scotia Plaza? That begun in 1985 and opened in 1988. In that photo it is topped out and fully clad. Can't have done that by 1986.
Thank you caw123, you definitely answered my complaint in your usual unbiased manner.

I'd hopefully see the 3 graces totally unobscured, with Brunswick Quay dwarfed by 10 taller towers around it. :yes:



What about Scotia Plaza? That begun in 1985 and opened in 1988. In that photo it is topped out and fully clad. Can't have done that by 1986.

CAW, Sloyne can't reply because he is busy imagining his super-cruise boat of the year 2020, and will in time be imaging his joyous promenade through his home city once he can draw himself away from the super-liner. He has lost interest in historic details of Toronto for now. And so should you. You are on the right lines with Brunswck Quay though! Care to conjecture what kind of heights those buildings might be?

Thank you caw123, you definitely answered my complaint in your usual unbiased manner.

Oh Sloyne, I just posted that you were above such quibbles because you were in cityscraper dreamtime. And then someone rudely awoke you to quibble. I think everyone needs to just forget about Toronto for the rest of the day - important as that city is, and its history, and future, it just seems to be an impediment to dreaming about Liverpool this afternoon.

CAW, Sloyne can't reply because he is busy imagining his super-cruise boat of the year 2020, and will in time be imaging his joyous promenade through his home city once he can draw himself away from the super-liner. He has lost interest in historic details of Toronto for now.
I am actually bar-b-q'ing and it's a bitch, the humidex is reading 47c, which is about 116f. And there's me standing over a hot grill. Must be a lunatic. Didn't play golf because it was to hot but will roast cooking steak and ribs. Should have ate out instead.

I think everyone needs to just forget about Toronto for the rest of the day.
Now I wonder just who would have brought Toronto into the thread? Could it be a reptile from another dimension? You know the worlds biggest and best city? But of course, you're right, it is a LIVERPOOL forum and the subjects should be Liverpool related. Please take note moderator.

A word of advice to one who has not ventured further west than Wigan; DirtyBit, you really do need to seek more contemporary pics when surfing the net. :bash:

I love the way that so called mature posters on the Liverpool forum have to drop down to the level of cheap insults. It's the classic trait shown by someone who cannot win an argument with reasoned points.

It's also very childish. You say Sloyne that you have been in the travel business for around 20 year. That must make you 40+. Grow up. I can understand it from the teenages on here, but you? Or are you actually a teenager trying to make yourself out to be something you're not?

Well, it's not big, and it's not clever.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...

Because you're all on here slagging us off

I think that you'll find that the slagging off of other cities from people outside happens far more in the Manchester forum at the hands of Liverpool forumers than the other way round.

Wo ist Bumface?

I have less concern with how tall, or short, the buildings are, rather, I would like to see more city squares with, among other things, attractive water features and focal points for the citizens. What's the point of majestic tall buildings if the city dies after 5:00pm? With the repopulation of the downtown i'm sure Liverpool is on the right track. A vibrant night-life is more than pubs and clubs, it is also public entertainment in public squares and, yes, 'skate-boarders' and 'break-dancers' are entertainment to some. And to those detractors of such things I would say, I would rather them be cavorting around on boards than drinking then spewing and pissing all over the city center.

Now I wonder just who would have brought Toronto into the thread? Could it be a reptile from another dimension? You know the worlds biggest and best city? But of course, you're right, it is a LIVERPOOL forum and the subjects should be Liverpool related. Pleae take note moderator.
Liverpolitan mentioned Liverpool aspiring to be like cities such as Vancouver. You then proceeded to insult Vancouver's build environment. I then pointed out that Vancouver's build environment problem was a Canadian problem, not a Vancouver one. You then proceeded to question this. I then provided evidence in the form of photos of Toronto. As far as I'm concerned it was YOU who took the thread off topic, based on your definition of "off topic", by choosing to discuss another city's build environment in a thread about Liverpool. :) If, however, you choose the view that a thread is still on topic if discussion relates to a city's aspirations then discussion of other build environments is surely on topic?

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...
Same here. This is tiring. :sleepy:

:lock:

My thought on the whole Manchester - Liverpool thing is simple.

Manchester - doing well with regards to contruction of the city and Lievrpool does have some catching up to do. Manchester historically to forign people is less in comparison to Liverpool you just have to look at groups of peoples i.e. people who love 60's music would come to Liverpool (Beatles) simple. Cream is so famous in europe that not many scousers even realise it so theres another type of people. You could go on for ages talking about the docks history etc. This history in its selfs i think gives Liverpool a massive advantage over Manchester, Manchester does have a lot of history of its own but i don't think its as attractive to a wider audience.

Oh and if you think of it marketing terms Liverpool has an instantly recognised image of its self (waterfront and Liver Birds) which i think Manchester lacks.

Oh and if you think of it marketing terms Liverpool has an instantly recognised image of its self (waterfront and Liver Birds) which i think Manchester lacks.
And of course the annual running of the Grand National horse race and British Open Golf (two venues) every four years or so, which help to keep Liverpools name in the forefront of British Cities. This will probably remain so upto and passed 2020. These are intangibles and are priceless advertising the Liverpool 'brand' and, with the advent of the return of the liners to the Liverpool waterfront can only give more exposure to the city. I do think, however, that the Liverpool 'brand' is very under exploited and a lot more could be done to publicise the city, as a tourist destination, world-wide.

I think that it was Caw who asked what it was about Liverpool that made it stand out. Liverpool is just a city that stands out naturally. It always has done, it always will do. Not necessarily always in a positive way but stand out it does.

Ask what is the essential difference between Birmingham and Manchester and only EarlyBird will be able to answer and will do so with pages of statistics. Ask what is the difference between Liverpool and Manchester and everyone can answer.

Port cities have a different psychology, they have the inland boundary of other cities and the infinite boundary of the sea. It is that infinity on the city's doorstep that gives Liverpool its humour, romance and independent spirit.

People say that we go on too much about the waterfront. But it is that waterfront that gives the city an identity lacking in other cities. Ask ten photographers to take a photograph each of Manchester and they will come back with ten different photographs. Ask them to take a photograph each of Liverpool and they will all take the ferry to Woodside and come back with the same photograph. The city faces the world and turns its back on the North West province.

Liverpool has played a great part in shaping that world, both for good and bad. Our city played a pivotal role in transporting African slaves to the American south. Later, millions of European emigrants passed through the city on the way to the New World. At one stage, one in seven of all the shipping in the world was owned in Liverpool.

Its links with that new world meant that the outcome of the American Civil War was of crucial importance to the city. The confederate battleship Alabama was built on the Mersey and the Ladies of Liverpool collected funds to aid the confederate cause. The final action of that war was the surrender of a confederate ship off the coast of New Brighton.

The world has also played a big part in shaping Liverpool. A multi-cultural city for well over two centuries, Liverpool has had a black community since the end of the American War of Independence and has the oldest Chinatown in Europe. Even the nickname Scouser comes from Scandinavia. The Liver Building was based on a Chicago skyscraper and other great buildings such as India Building, Tower Building or Martins Bank would not look out of place on Fifth Avenue.

Links with North America came to a head in the early 1940s, when Liverpool ships with Liverpool crews faced German U-Boats as they brought essential wartime supplies to Britain across the Atlantic. The city and docks were premier targets for the Luftwaffe and the city bears the scars to this day.

I don't want to go on about the past but I think it has a bearing on the future. Liverpool suffered terribly in the last decades of the 20th century from the closure of port industries, loss of ocean-going passenger traffic and the collapse of manufacturing industry. But the city is now recovering strongly and do you seriously think that a city with as great a history as ours and with such an independent spirit is going to play second fiddle to Manchester for much longer?

:applause:

Agreed, Martin..

My preconceptions of Liverpool was 'If it was such an important city, why is there so little to show for it (compared to NYC).. But by going I realised there wasn't.. Whilst I've never been to NYC.. It dawned looking at Liverpool that it just had a different richness.. As you've said, you'll never take the mersey from the city.. And what will make Liverpool better than the cities mentioned in this is no matter how overdeveloped she may get, you can just go to the waterfront and be able to breathe.. you can either face the city and see whats gone up, what dominates over what.. or turn away from it all and have the water and sky, and feel fresh and unrestricted.

I'm off to Liverpool again tomorrow, lol..I stayed away for 3 days and yet I'm already going back, hehe :) I really do hope that you (or collectively we) get a really impressive cluster amongst beetham and co.. Maybe Beetham2 will be the tallest we ever see there, who knows.. It'd be great for that area to become such a hustle and bustle because you're only a few minutes walk to the docks or the graces and to get away from it.. something you simply can't do in most cities.

Why do you always try to compare Liverpool to Manchester?(present and future)]
Have you ever considered that when comparisons are made with Manchester, it might just be a compliment. Normally when people make comparisons, they usually pick something of quality to compare against. So when the Liverpool Forumers use Manchester as comparison, many of them know that Manchester has gone through over a decade of regeneration and has some fantastic facilities such as the MEN Arena and the excellent shopping experience. We know Liverpool has some catching up to do so Manchester is used as a comparison.



Why do some of you always aspire to this notion that Liverpool will one day catch up with Manchester? It won't
I personally don't think Liverpool will catch up with Manchester as Manchester has had a good start and as Liverpool develops, so will Manchester but you can't say 'It won't ever catch up with Manchester' because many unexpected things can happen. Who would have thought 15 years ago that Leeds would eventually give Manchester a run for it's money.

no matter how overdeveloped she may get, you can just go to the waterfront and be able to breathe.. you can either face the city and see whats gone up, what dominates over what.. or turn away from it all and have the water and sky, and feel fresh and unrestricted
Just when I was despairing as to how yet another thread was degenerating into who's got the bigger cock, Ferge comes up with this gem. Thanks pal :cheers:

My preconceptions of Liverpool was 'If it was such an important city, why is there so little to show for it (compared to NYC).. But by going I realised there wasn't.. Whilst I've never been to NYC.. It dawned looking at Liverpool that it just had a different richness.. As you've said, you'll never take the mersey from the city.. And what will make Liverpool better than the cities mentioned in this is no matter how overdeveloped she may get, you can just go to the waterfront and be able to breathe.. you can either face the city and see whats gone up, what dominates over what.. or turn away from it all and have the water and sky, and feel fresh and unrestricted

Are you sure your not a scouser because that just about sums it up. :cheers:

Agreed, Martin..

My preconceptions of Liverpool was 'If it was such an important city, why is there so little to show for it (compared to NYC).. But by going I realised there wasn't.. Whilst I've never been to NYC.. It dawned looking at Liverpool that it just had a different richness.. As you've said, you'll never take the mersey from the city.. And what will make Liverpool better than the cities mentioned in this is no matter how overdeveloped she may get, you can just go to the waterfront and be able to breathe.. you can either face the city and see whats gone up, what dominates over what.. or turn away from it all and have the water and sky, and feel fresh and unrestricted.

I'm off to Liverpool again tomorrow, lol..I stayed away for 3 days and yet I'm already going back, hehe :) I really do hope that you (or collectively we) get a really impressive cluster amongst beetham and co.. Maybe Beetham2 will be the tallest we ever see there, who knows.. It'd be great for that area to become such a hustle and bustle because you're only a few minutes walk to the docks or the graces and to get away from it.. something you simply can't do in most cities.

I think you've hit the nail on the head there Ferge.

I'm glad you enjoyed your stay and the proof is in the pudding in that you are being attracted back so soon.

In a few years time, Liverpool will have a lot more to offer with the much improved shopping areas and your visit(s) will be even better.

I'm looking forward to some more of your excellent pics.

My preconceptions of Liverpool was 'If it was such an important city, why is there so little to show for it (compared to NYC).
It was said, in the late 18th century, "New York ships trade with Liverpool, Liverpool ships trade with the world" . Another American once said " Liverpool belongs to the world, if it didn't exist it would have to be invented, Liverpool has a sense of place" , which is very true even today. New York was mentioned and rightly so because the similarities between New York and Liverpool are very tangible. And what more to highlight the link between the two cities than exiting Wall Street and the first thing that comes into view is the name of a Liverpool inner city suburb over the name of the city it's self. The floating display of the iron-sided clipper WAVERTREE with it's home port of LIVERPOOL underneath, tells all and sundry of the invisible unmbilical cord that connects these two port cities, still.

The British like to think that they have a special relationship with the United States, if there is any place in Britain that does have a special relationship with the US, it is surely Liverpool. Liverpool whose history is interwoven with the history of the US and, not only in shipping links but also the last conflict between Britain and the US, the War of 1812. Not many know that it was the Kings Liverpool Regiment who fought the last major battle of that war. The Battle of Lundy's Lane (Battle of Niagara) when a US army led by, no less than, three American generals crossed the Niagara River and attacked the sleeping Kingsmen who fought off the attack and sent the Americans south to never again attempt to invade Canada. We Canadians owe Liverpool our independence.

American generals crossed the Niagara River and attcked the slepping Kingsmen who fought of the attack and sent the Americans south to never again attempt to invade Canada. We Canadians owe Liverpool our independence.

:cheers:

I don't think I've ever been quoted so many times in such a short space of time, God bless you people.. No, I'm not a scouser but.. I feel welcomed, lol..

Ok, I'll take my camera again tomorrow but I doubt I'll get a chance to use it, either way worth a go :P

I'm glad you enjoyed your stay and the proof is in the pudding in that you are being attracted back so soon.


Actually this is a point, Liverpool does leave me wanting to go back soon after each visit. Though its been 6 months since I was last over there. You can walk around the city centre for hours and still feel the need to go back because theres still more nooks and crannys to discover, I think this is a trait it shares with a few other UK cities, but each is interesting and individual in a different way, somehow. And that it's isn't it, the x-factor, you can't explain it. I get you Liverpolitan. But I would go as far as saying Liverpool stands out because of this. Every city has it in some way.

Hmm, feel like jumping on a train west tommorow morning now.

Actually this is a point, Liverpool does leave me wanting to go back soon after each visit. Though its been 6 months since I was last over there. You can walk around the city centre for hours and still feel the need to go back because theres still more nooks and crannys to discover, I think this is a trait it shares with a few other UK cities, but each is interesting and individual in a different way, somehow. And that it's isn't it, the x-factor, you can't explain it. I get you Liverpolitan. But I would go as far as saying Liverpool stands out because of this. Every city has it in some way.

Hmm, feel like jumping on a train west tommorow morning now.

Chris, perhaps we could meet up one day and go piccy taking together. I'll give you a good time big boy :cheers:

I'll give you a good time big boy :cheers:
:laugh:

Not knowing the city (apart from a flying visit to the Albert Docks years ago) what will the skyline look like with all the proposed developments planned?

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid172/p6dc3c511030433f4073a01a93f41a2f5/f3cf7cb1.jpg

[URL=http://www.imageshack.us]http://img133.echo.cx/img133/8964/pic73px.jpg[/

Well, I have to admit the Liverpool forum is much faster to reply than the Glasgow one! Well done!!!!

Have to admit that there's not enough posters in Glasgow for that kind of quick reply!!!!

Chris, perhaps we could meet up one day and go piccy taking together. I'll give you a good time big boy :cheers:

It depends on what you want to be taking photos of............... :eek: :uh:

Well, I have to admit the Liverpool forum is much faster to reply than the Glasgow one! Well done!!!!

Have to admit that there's not enough posters in Glasgow for that kind of quick reply!!!!

Bunnyman and I have recently posted in Glasgae. Some fantastic pics on your forum, esp the Necropolis which is an interest of mine.

No... you don't need a cluster by the docks there, they're open, spacious and iconic.. It's much better keeping all the talls in the area they're in, bar Brunswick

Bunnyman and I have recently posted in Glasgae. Some fantastic pics on your forum, esp the Necropolis which is an interest of mine.

Well gleegieboy seems to pop up everywhere too!

Well gleegieboy seems to pop up everywhere too!
no comprendo. I've missed something in the translation.

Anyway, it's not Manchester-bashing to point out that Liverpools' influence over "buffer" towns such as Wigan, Warrington and Preston is growing and will have grown significantly by 2020.
To be honest I dont think Liverpool's influence over Preston has changed at all since end of the second world war, at which point it significantly decreased with the dying days of the industrial revolution.
I think you greatly overestimate the power that Manchester and Liverpool have over the rest of the North West. People in Preston conduct 95% of their business in Preston. That includes time at home, going shopping, going to work and enjoying leisure activities. The other 5% is made up of maybe a couple of visits to Blackpool and Southport in the summer, the odd shopping trip to Manchester, or going for a walk in the county etc.
I dont know anyone in Preston who goes to work in Liverpool or goes on regular visits (except for one person who is a Liverpool fan). Manchester has a bigger influence over central lancs than Liverpool but even so, its still not that much.
At the moment there is NOTHING to suggest that Preston is part of the Liverpool city region, and their is nothing to suggest that it ever will be. The same goes for Manchester.
Liverpool is struggling to get a grip on its current city region with people from Wirral and Southport constantly claiming their independance, let alone expanding it that far north.

Southport won't declare independence from it's own mother Accy, never mind it's neighbour. The people who actually want independence from Liverpool are either retired from living in the city or doleite scum born from wealthy Liverpudlians who escaped the city cull after the war. Twats who believe the world owes them all a living.

Pete Price said that Formby wasnt part of Liverpool on his Sunday night show. Then again, he was having a rant at some yuppie from Formby over the phone...

He's a camp little prick who fits whatever little agenda, suits him. Pete Price is nothing more than a flamboyant, but boring gobshite.

He's a camp little prick who fits whatever little agenda, suits him. Pete Price is nothing more than a flamboyant, but boring gobshite.
I agree. I used to really admire him, but now he has become so self centred. I dont even listen to his show anymore.
The final straw for me was when he spends all his time saying how much he hates football, and telling Liverpool and Everton fans to get lost... then Liverpool reach the European final, and where is he? In a bar, on the local tv news saying how great it is for the city and 'how proud' he is to have his team in the final.
Talk about jumping on the bandwagon...

Hypocritical noblet. Kev Seed is a prick, but at least he doesn't profess to be anything more. Price is a first class gobshite who professes to be the savior of mankind or something..

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid172/p6dc3c511030433f4073a01a93f41a2f5/f3cf7cb1.jpg

Is this image available larger? I'd appreciate it :)

looks great! what's the tall building on the far left?

Apparently a Dutch tower (proposed or U/C in Rotterdam?). It has been substituted in to represent the King Edward Tower, which would be of similar dimensions. However, only one poor quality render was released so JDN (I think) used this tower instead.

The likelyhood of this particular tower being constructed is now in doubt due to a lack of news on the project, but its proposed site is full of potential, and so a significant highrise of some description is a strong possibility.