what do ya think????

Supertrain??? (http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0100regionalnews/tm_objectid=15688574%26method=full%26siteid=50061%26headline=fast%2dtrain%2dto%2dlime%2dstreet-name_page.html)

If this ever happens then we can stop worrying about the shite train links into Liverpool :)

Fast train to Lime Street Jul 1 2005


By Neil Hodgson, Liverpool Echo

A 300MPH super-train connecting Liverpool to London in only 58 minutes is being planned.

The Maglev train - which uses magnetic power to support carriages on a guide track and propel them up to speeds of 311mph - would connect London with Glasgow, via Birmingham, Liverpool, Manchester, Newcastle and Edinburgh, over a 500 mile route.

The UK Ultraspeed consortium behind bringing the train to Britain says Liverpool could be the first link to be established.

Business leaders including the CBI (Confederation of British Industry) and North West Development Agency believe the £16bn scheme could boost the region's economy and loosen the south east's strangle-hold on the nation's wealth.

The Maglev - short for magnetic levitation - sits on a magnetic cushion while surfing a rolling wave of electricity and could be in place by the end of the decade.

Its speeds would mean travelling from Liverpool to Newcastle would take 60 minutes, London to Birmingham 30 minutes and 100 minutes from London to Newcastle.

Alan James, project leader for UK Ultraspeed, told the ECHO: "Eco-nomic development is at the core of what we are doing.

"By linking Liverpool with Manchester, Leeds and Newcastle, to Glasgow by a high-speed system it would create a 'greater northern' economic powerhouse to rival the south east.

"It is all about access. This will balance the country."

A study by Newcastle university estimated that the north west region has only 32% of London's economic potential because of a lack of transport and access for employers and potential employers.

With the Maglev system that would improve to 78%, compared with London.

"The challenge is not technology or funding," Mr James said..

"The public finance initiative framework is in place for funding projects such as this - the challenge is political will and planning permission."

cant see it myself but part of the fun of this site is the amount of wishful thinking it allows for.

Reason it won't happen is that the gov't would not want to dilute london's power and this would be an aid to doing this!

Sad but true, Bustcapl.

Its a nice idea, but theres obvious more then a bit of spinning going on by the Maglev consortium. The idea that Liverpool would get the first line being one (only as a spur from Manchester) and that fares would be £25 (not under the British model of low subsidy levels they wouldn't!)

I wonder where they'd put the station though? :D

I wonder where they'd put the station?
Manchester.

Manchester.

I can just see the latest "northern way" document now; "Manchester, as regional capi....blah de blah de blah"

yes this story reminds me about another fanciful echo story about airtrain wanting to base 15+ 757's in LPL but LPL could not handle them so they were going to Manchester airport.

Needless to say that has died a death

Journalism can be so poor!

Airtrain was pie in the sky from the word go. That is why Peel wouldn't touch it with a shitty stick.

Its a great idea....but unfourtunately, great schemes like this always get the lesser spotted nimby's foaming at the mouth, because some hedgerow or tree might have to be cut down...the shock...the horror....

Schemes like this always come too close to the back gardens of middle England's chinless wonders who want to keep living in their chocolate box corner of the country.

If this country wasnt so geographically small, schemes like this would have been built years ago....its why France was able to build its high speed network, they could simply route it through unpopulated areas between citys....we just dont have that option

Sounds like a good idea, but how would it get into the centre of citys, unless it's built above existing motorways, main roads. More likeley say outskirts of kirkby to outskirts of Manchester along A580, connecting onto railway line station.

Sounds like a good idea, but how would it get into the centre of citys, unless it's built above existing motorways, main roads. More likeley say outskirts of kirkby to outskirts of Manchester along A580, connecting onto railway line station.

Couldn't they go underground to stop in city centres, I guess that'd put cost right up though?

Couldn't they go underground to stop in city centres, I guess that'd put cost right up though?
At 300mph that would be one ear popping experience :nuts:

Seriously though, yes thats possible, and as you say would be very expensive, they would probably slow down through city centre/built up areas, or into tunnels. I know the CTRL is underground from the centre of London to somewhere on the outskirts, so its not impossible to do similar in Liverpool.

Sounds like a good idea, but how would it get into the centre of citys, unless it's built above existing motorways, main roads. More likeley say outskirts of kirkby to outskirts of Manchester along A580, connecting onto railway line station.


Some JMU students did a display on future Liverpool a few years ago that I remember going to see. They suggested using the old rail tunnel that runs down to the docks and building the terminus where the "Toys R Us" shed is now. Seemed a sensible idea to me.

Sounds good. For some months the newspapers have said Tony Blair was personally impressed by the plans for a super-high speed line.

I don't see how this can't happen.

It is insanity to use planes for internal journeys between London and the northern / Scottish cities. It is causing tons of carbon to be released every day, and is not sustainable. Domestic air traffic from London to Northern England / Scotland could be made obsolete by this development. Everyone travelling by air internally who has a choice should search their conscience, because it's hugely destructive. I do it occasionally because I am forced to do trips for work that I can't otherwise do, but it is objectionable.

Plus we could stop wasting vast amounts of money on any further expansion of the motorway network, and get people out of cars for long distance journeys.

I don't know what the proposed route is, but plainly a spur would not be a first choice. Not in the mood to look at the proposed map at the moment, it will probably annoy me, but a decent direct link on this thing for Liverpool would be great.

I think this is going to happen.

From all the maps that I've seen, Liverpool is not included in the plans. The main proposal being from London to Birmingham - Manchester - Leeds - Newcaste - Edinburgh - Glasgow as one long line.

Of course we would then add this to our list of 'we're the biggest city in the country without...' list. :no:

^The map in the Echo does show Liverpool.

Have you a scanner? ;)

Have you a scanner?

Not one that is working! :)

The line looks like the one you described but at Manchester it splits off to Liverpool.

That's shit. What's wrong with a divergence at Crewe like on the WCML?

From all the maps that I've seen, Liverpool is not included in the plans. The main proposal being from London to Birmingham - Manchester - Leeds - Newcaste - Edinburgh - Glasgow as one long line.

That's not a very direct route is it?

Two lines would make more sense, one for Leicester, Nottingham, Sheffield, Leeds, Newcastle, Edinburgh, Glasgow and the other for Birmingham, Manc and Liverpool.

I agree that would be far better. I've seen both such routes proposed though not recently.

That's shit. What's wrong with a divergence at Crewe like on the WCML?

The reason it doesn't split off at Crewe is because UK Ultrapeed see the network as an interurban and interairport link. In this case it is their priority to connect Liverpool not only with London, Yorkshire, the North East and Scotland but also with LHR, BHX and MAN airports. The underlying impression I get from reading their website is that the Liverpool terminus would be at or near the airport, as Manchester's major station would be at its own airport so that long haul/short haul flights would be better integrated.

The governments HSR policy seems conversely to be that city centres should be better connected to one another, and so should the Ultraspeed plan be accepted it would have to be altered to fit this criteria. However it seems unlikely that the branch would split off any earlier than Manchester airport.

The other major reason it wouldn't split off at Crewe is that if it were to go via Manchester the line could also be used for access to the far north and the trains being so fast there would be very little extra cost (London-Liverpool) in terms of time.

Uk Ultrapeed (http://www.500kmh.com)

Eastern route seems to lose it's link to Birmingham and hubs at Sheffield.

http://www.expall.com/Resources/east72cropped.jpeg

Western route seems to hub at Manchester, loses the BHX link and dog-legs at Bristol for some reason.

http://www.expall.com/Resources/west72cropped.jpeg

Northern Way route seems to include all the major stops and hubs at Manchester and Leeds.

http://www.expall.com/Resources/north72cropped.jpeg

The reason it doesn't split off at Crewe is because UK Ultrapeed see the network as an interurban and interairport link. In this case it is their priority to connect Liverpool not only with London, Yorkshire, the North East and Scotland but also with LHR, BHX and MAN airports. The underlying impression I get from reading their website is that the Liverpool terminus would be at or near the airport, as Manchester's major station would be at its own airport so that long haul/short haul flights would be better integrated.

The governments HSR policy seems conversely to be that city centres should be better connected to one another, and so should the Ultraspeed plan be accepted it would have to be altered to fit this criteria. However it seems unlikely that the branch would split off any earlier than Manchester airport.

The other major reason it wouldn't split off at Crewe is that if it were to go via Manchester the line could also be used for access to the far north and the trains being so fast there would be very little extra cost (London-Liverpool) in terms of time.

Uk Ultrapeed (http://www.500kmh.com)

My concern was that Liverpool would not get a direct link to London and that we would have to change at Manchester or something stupid like that. I can't see any of this becoming a reality anytime soon so I guess it's not much of an issue.

My concern was that Liverpool would not get a direct link to London and that we would have to change at Manchester or something stupid like that. I can't see any of this becoming a reality anytime soon so I guess it's not much of an issue.

No I think the point is much more that trains (are they trains?) would go to Manchester and then go to either Liverpool, Sheffield or further north.

It probably isn't very likely to be built any time soon.

However if it were a Liverpool-Manchester airport link would probably be a good place to start if they wanted to, what with the technology being local, the historical parralells with the LMR and because the airports have shockingly poor links to the neighbouring cities.

I'm afraid I'm a bit sceptical about Maglev. It is really a solution to a problem that just doesn't exist. The French have shown that conventional railway technology can push service speeds to 350km/hr (218mph) and that speeds of this order are the highest we are likely to see for economical ground transport services.

The problem has nothing to do with the use of wheels or magnetic levitation. A train is subject to both the rolling resistance of its wheels and to air resistance. The former varies directly with the speed, the latter with the square of the speed. At low speeds, air resistance is not very important but, at speeds in excess of about 80 mph it equals the rolling resistance and then above that it dominates until at speeds such as Maglev, rolling resistance is almost negligible. Consequently, replacing conventional wheels with magnetic levitation is of little benefit. (That is why aircraft fly at very high altitudes, they need to expoit the thinner air to minimise drag).

In fact, levitation must increase energy requirements as you can not get lift without inducing drag. Aircraft wings are designed to provide lift but they do this by increasing drag. A Maglev vehicle also requires horizontal guidance, something that railway wheels do without any energy requirement purely due to their profile.

Conventional railways have other advantages. Trains can make use of practically any rail route to allow services to run into city centres and to permit diversions when the main route is blocked for any reason. Railways are also relatively cheap, most Maglev tracks are real heavy engineering, especially their pointwork. Railways can also carry slower suburban services and freight, as well as high speed trains.

So, I think Maglev is a technological red herring, suitable only for prestige projects, not economical rail services.

The question we should be asking is why support a route that makes Liverpool a branch from Manchester? Look at the map and you will see that by far the straightest rail route from London is the one to Liverpool - the Victorians got it right. It is well within the bounds of technology to run trains that can do well below two hours on the route.

It is an axiom of the travel trade that journeys by rail of three hours or less are competitive with air. This is because air travel times are inflated by travel to and from the airport, checking in time and baggage reclaim. A two hour or less frequent Liverpool to London rail service is what we should be aiming for.

Totally agree with you

[QUOTE=Martin S]I'm afraid I'm a bit sceptical about Maglev. It is really a solution to a problem that just doesn't exist. The French have shown that conventional railway technology can push service speeds to 350km/hr (218mph) and that speeds of this order are the highest we are likely to see for economical ground transport services. QUOTE]

Martin, I am more than a bit sceptical about the merits of a Maglev system, it is a flight of fancy. OK the finance (private only) may be found but a system that requires the building of a 1000km (?) of elevated track in this "nimby" riddled island would be almost impossible to achieve.

Martin, I am more than a bit sceptical about the merits of a Maglev system, it is a flight of fancy. OK the finance (private only) may be found but a system that requires the building of a 1000km (?) of elevated track in this "nimby" riddled island would be almost impossible to achieve.

Roger Ford, the technical editor of Modern Railways, had some interesting things to say about Tony Blair's supposed enthusiasm for Maglev. Blair, he says, is a person who will listen with great attentiveness and interest to any proposal put before him and then go on to do exactly what he was going to do in the first place. I can't see Alistair Darling tripping over himself to fund it either.

The economics of rail (or Maglev) construction vary from place to place. Britain is a densely populated country with a large amount of upland and mountainous areas and also has competing road passenger services that reduce the profitability of rail travel. France has large amounts of open space, relatively flat terrain and regulation of bus and coach services, consequently construction costs are lower and revenue is higher. Germany, with its strong environmental lobby has construction costs for its Neubaustrecke (high speed rail routes) far in excess of those in France.

Surely the need to placate Nimby folk and to compulsarily purchase vast amounts of expensive land would push the costs way beyond £16B?
For this to work in the UK much of it would have to be subterranean- surely then we would be looking at costs of £100B+ over the whole of the UK ??

Blabbern,

To put it in tunnel would remove any advantages that Maglev had. Trains travelling at high speed need very large tunnels to permit the displaced air to move past them - as can be seen by the large diameter tunnels on the Channel Tunnel Rail Link designed to cater for train speeds of 300kph. Building tunnels large enough to cope with Maglev speeds would be prohibitively costly.

Would a vaccum tunnel remove any problems of aerodynamic drag? maybe a Maglev system of 600km/h would be feasable. Though maybe cheddar gorge should be bypassed. :)

Would a vaccum tunnel remove any problems of aerodynamic drag? maybe a Maglev system of 600km/h would be feasable. Though maybe cheddar gorge should be bypassed. :)

Yes but then the passengers wouldn't be able to breathe and sales of return tickets would suffer.

I think the NIMBY issues are declining.

People are beginning to realise that having 1,000 planes a month or week spraying jet fuel over them is not good for the garden or the sensitive little lungs of their babies. People used to imagine that being within 20 miles of an airport just meant you could see funny lines (so-called "vapour" trails) in the sky, now they realise that they and their families are slowly being poisoned by a deadly cocktail of pollutants. We can't carry on with pointless growth in air journeys, especially for domestic flights that could be replaced by high speed rail / maglev.

There is also a desperate concern at the growth of car transport, not just its climate damaging impact but the noise. People who have bought second homes in the countryside to escape the city are finding that they are disturbed by the noise of traffic. People who live in city centres are increasingly intolerant of the noise and polllution caused by out-of-towners who are too mean and selfish to get the train or bus into town - or to vote for a tram. Most people in a city with half-decent public transport dont need a car anyway.

Some of those hypotcritical Kentish nimby-scum who opposed the high speed line from London to the Channel Tunnel drive into London and other towns in 4x4s and fly to weekend homes in Spain or France. The good news is that it is beginning to dawn on them that they are scum - they are, I think, privately starting to realise that their selfishness is shared by so many others as to be counter-productive. Selfish people are good at understanding when their interests are no longer being served by a certain course of action or behaviour.

Now they realise that their kids have asthma for a reason. Now they are starting to realise that the reason they can't park is that too many other poeple now live in two or three car households. The grip of the car has frozen and will quickly loosen. Ditto air travel - it's too dirty to continue on current lines. No airline booking site even offers a direct link to pay a carbon tax (eg your flight costs x carbon and we can plant trees to absorb this if you press this voluntary carbon tax button: I wrote to Easyjet to ask for that customer option two years ago and am still waiting for a reply).

I think we should convert the M6 to a Maglev.

One way=no problem. ;)

There was a study of a transatlantic tunnel on Discovery a while back, and that is one of the ideas they came forward with, including a pressurised cabin. The transatlantic tunnel would be no more than 100m below sea level because of the pressure...

Bunny,

When the Mersey Railway was first proposed, it was intended to be a pneumatic railway with trains pushed from Liverpool to Birkenhead using air pressure. This would require carriages that fitted the bore of the tunnel almost exactly.

This wasn't as wacky an idea as it sounds as a working prototype was built at Crystal Palace and the first New York subway used this method of propulsion. Isambard Kingdom Brunel used a surface version in Cornwall with a piston in a pipe pulling trains. It was very successful at first but suffered from technical problems and was replaced with a conventional railway.

I doubt that such a system is very energy efficient as it involves pumping huge volumes of air but it does remove the need to have the heavy traction unit on the train (something largely solved today by electric traction).

A constant vacuum with pressurised trains is technically feasible but the cost over the length of the route would be prohibitive.

Give it a go when the technology is more affordable eh? Might be worthwhile over longer distances, but intercity would be a drag.

I think the NIMBY issues are declining.

I think we should convert the M6 to a Maglev.

I disagree on both points, NIMBY man (or Ecowarrior) is here to stay, just wait for the outcry when Alister Darling tries to widen the M6 from Birmingham through to Knutsford. Only last week the Dpt for Transport admitted that costs on the A303 new road that will run UNDER Stonehenge had increased by £35M.

Whats the funding gap for Merseytram--£65M ????

It cannot be much fun living close to either a high speed rail line or a motorway, but how could anybody live near / under a elevated Maglev line ?.

The M6 like most other motorways in this crowded island carries much of the freight traffic (sadly not the railways) that we all need to survive.
No way could a Maglev carry the volume of freight that daily uses our motorways.

Bunny,

When the Mersey Railway was first proposed, it was intended to be a pneumatic railway with trains pushed from Liverpool to Birkenhead using air pressure. This would require carriages that fitted the bore of the tunnel almost exactly.

This wasn't as wacky an idea as it sounds as a working prototype was built at Crystal Palace and the first New York subway used this method of propulsion. Isambard Kingdom Brunel used a surface version in Cornwall with a piston in a pipe pulling trains. It was very successful at first but suffered from technical problems and was replaced with a conventional railway.

I doubt that such a system is very energy efficient as it involves pumping huge volumes of air but it does remove the need to have the heavy traction unit on the train (something largely solved today by electric traction).

A constant vacuum with pressurised trains is technically feasible but the cost over the length of the route would be prohibitive.

The New York project didn't go ahead because it 'sucked'. :lol:

I thought there was one oin New York? Didn't they use it for Ghostbustes 2? :?

The New York project didn't go ahead because it 'sucked'. :lol:

The first New York subway was built in secret and only covered about one block. It was the time of Boss Tweed, the super-Hatton type mayor of New York who would not let anything go ahead unless he got his cut.

In the end, it was closed and left to rot and was never incorporated into the main subway system.

City's ticket for super-fast train


LIVERPOOL has been invited to be the first on board the UK's 21st century Maglev system which could link the city with London in 58 minutes.

Dr Alan James, project leader of UK Ultraspeed which aims to build the £16bn national network for its floating train link, made the offer to Liverpool business and transport chiefs yesterday.

In an exclusive presentation to Liverpool Chamber of Commerce he explained the benefits of magnetic levitation.

The 311mph system would put London within reach in 58 minutes and Newcastle on the hour and would provide a dramatic boost for regional economies.

The technology already exists in Liverpool's twin city of Shanghai and Dr James said the UK Ultraspeed consortium is certain it could fund 70% of the cost through private investment.

But he called on cities and regions to take a lead in Maglev's development and for Liverpool to make the link with Manchester Airport and on to Leeds happen first.

"We positively welcome the proactive participation of beneficiary cities in shaping the scheme," he said.

And he pledged to match pound-for-pound any investment from cities.

"We can deliver stage one with a collaborative regional partner.

"Cities themselves may want to take a stake in the scheme. Invest with us to shape Ultraspeed to fit your priorities like terminal locations and interchanges. Help us plan where these will be."

He added: "We have spoken to Manchester airport and look forward to a dialogue with Liverpool John Lennon airport owner Peel Holdings.

"They own the Manchester Ship Canal that goes pretty much exactly in the same direction, with air rights above that aren't used."

He said stage one could be complete in four to five years.

Liverpool Chamber of Commerce chief executive Jack Stopforth said: "This is revolutionary and extraordinarily exciting. I would like to think that if this materialises Liverpool and Merseyside would become the first beneficiaries."

But Mike Flynn from trains operator Keolis told Dr James: "Many people in the transport sector are sceptical."

Further information at www.500kmh.com

I presume thats the noise one of these makes as it 'flys by' and probably the same noise as this half baked idea will make as it flys off.

Maglev has been trying to get traction for decades (no pun intended) and I think there is still only one 19mile operating track in the world (in Shanghai) other than research tracks.

They have been trying to build one from LA to Las Vegas for years and if they cant make the economics work from one the largest US population centers to one of the fastest growing large cities I cant see it panning out in the UK unless Mr Darling is going to cough up the cash !! 16Billion !!!

Sounds like a developer looking for some consultancy funding to keep him in his lifestyle for a few years if you ask me.

Madness - the 16bn doesn't even include the cost of buying the land that would be required - find this whole thing very unlikely.

The only things I'll believe about Maglev are those coming from the DoT.
Obviously this consortium have their own agenda to push so pie in the sky statements are to be expected.

I can hardly see Peel finding any money for this either. You'd be looking at billions just to do a line to Manchester. They only spent £40m on the whole of the new terminal, to put it in perspective.

Ha!

As if!


Remember - this is England!

What century will this be in?

http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0100regionalnews/tm_objectid=16287434%26method=full%26siteid=50061%26headline=london%2d%2d%2donly%2dan%2dhour%2daway-name_page.html

London - only an hour away Oct 24 2005

By Neil Hodgson, Liverpool Echo

A SUPER-fast train linking London to Liverpool in less than an hour is being considered by government ministers.

In July the ECHO exclusively revealed plans for a 311mph maglev system connecting Scotland, Merseyside and Manchester with the south east.

Now Transport Secretary Alistair Darling is to consider the scheme, which would see a floating train using magnetic power to hover above a guide track.

UK Ultraspeed, the company behind the idea, wants to build a nine-minute link between Liverpool and Manchester ahead of its proposed north-south connection.

The world's first operational maglev is already in operation, running between Chinese city Shanghai and its international airport.

Ultraspeed is in discussion with Liverpool Chamber of Commerce and met Mr Darling at a Manchester transport seminar.

Mr Darling told the ECHO: "We are examining the case for a north-south high speed link. We need to work out if there is an economic case.

"If it is decided that is the right thing to do, the second question is what sort of technology we need and we would go out to tender."

Ultraspeed project leader Alan James said the company was determined to provide the answer for Britain's future public transport needs.

He said: "Liverpool to Manchester is the link that ticks most boxes and the one we would like to focus on as the UK demonstrator.

"Liverpool to Manchester has a very strong case and if the north west gets the first route you are ahead of the game. You would have the operational control centre, key skills and depots. Everything will cluster around phase one."

Mr James said Ultraspeed was keen to work with the public and private sectors to make the scheme work.

He said: "If you are a great region, join the progamme, if you are a great business, join the company."

A spokesman for north west transport authorities said they could help secure the scheme by including it in their next local transport plan for 2006.

http://skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=242404&page=1&pp=20

The Leeds - Manchester option.

If the scheme gets the go-ahead, work on its first phase, possibly linking Leeds with Manchester, could begin in 2 years' time, and be up and running in four years' time.

Well we can "HOPE" !!!! BIG WORD

Hello from the American intruder. :D

Why not just build a conventional high speed line. The article posted in the first post mentions a top speed of 260mph for MagLev. In Spain, the line between Madrid in Barcelona, once operational, will travel the 400 miles in between both cities in less than 2.5 hours, or about 160 mph. The top speed though would be over 200 mph.

It would make sense for the UK to build a London-Birmingham-Manchester-Newcastle-Edinburgh-Glasgow line (unlike France, you guys are a narrow country, ideal for the construction of one main super fast conventional rail train).

Using the Madrid-Barcelona average speed, you could zip from Glasgow to London in 3 hours, and you could make the line even faster (because again, whereas Spain and France have to construct several lines because of the shape of their countries, the UK would probably be OK with one line going down the center).

If for example the train went 200 mph, the top speed of the future line in Spain, you could do the Glasgow-London trip in about 2.5 hours. I think that would be enough to draw people from their cars and from planes.

The main benefit would be that this new line would be completely conventional with the existing network, so the high speed trains could still reach every destination in the UK. You cannot do this with maglev.

City's ticket for super-fast train


LIVERPOOL has been invited to be the first on board the UK's 21st century Maglev system which could link the city with London in 58 minutes.


The 311mph system would put London within reach in 58 minutes and Newcastle on the hour and would provide a dramatic boost for regional economies.]

Having just returned home tonight from my fifth working trip to London in the past 3 weeks ( with another to look foreward to this week-end) all by mini-bus via our increasingley congested motorway system, I would love to get there in 58 minutes.

But I think the planning and financing such an amazing system will take years and I will be retired before its open :)

The Liverpool to Manchester link would be the first part to be built (if/when this is a goer), sounds very exciting . How far into the city and where would this go, would have to be well away from any NIMBY'S.

Reckon the one will hit the buffers! (Sorry!) If I recall a programme I saw on Discovery along time ago, these MagLev trains run on elevated trackways to alleviate the problems of levels crossings, and avoid building specific bridges to cross a river for example. This means you have the track permanently around 20 feet above ground along it's length. I can't seem anyone accepting this blot on the landscape, as it crosses through rural areas. And that's before we address the cost issue. I would love to see it, but can't ever seeing it be more than pie in the sky.