continued from old thread (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=173599)

Aldo @ Mall St.Matthews has some great deals if Anyone is Intersested...

Does anyone have a culmination of 'old city limits' development?

what ya mean?

They are planning some cool lofts at the corner of Kentucky and Swan in Germantown in an old warehouse looking deal.

The NCAA officials Say build arena Downtown or they wont get their business or any regional tournaments.

STORY COMING SOON.

The Arena Needs and Uses Committee nailed the representative from PriceWaterHouseCoopers to the floor yesterday for being far too vague on what the city can attract and what our demographics can support. They want hard data to use in their deliberations and I am glad they are asking the hard questions and making this as serious as possible.

The more news I hear about this, the less I am worried about it being built anywhere but in downtown. Every credible source is telling the committee that basically it is to be built downtown or you're wasting hundreds of millions of dollars on nothing. I have faith that this will be built DT and will be the most advanced arena built to date in the US...I really think they're going to do this right.

http://www.jeffersonvilletowncenter.com/

I found the website for the new mall being built in Clarksville/Jeffersonville.

There are detailed maps and renderings...just thought I'd share. (and if you click on it, I find the pictures quite humerous on the first page...you'll know why when you see them)

Ok, so heres the specs on Jeff Towne Center:

The Town Center / Power Center – 800,000 sf of retail, restaurants, and office to be anchored by a department store, cinema, and bookstore
The Discount Anchored Power Center – 350,000 sf of retail & restaurants to be anchored by a discount retailer
Southern Most Project – 50,000 sf of additional retail, restaurants, and hotel
Northern Office Campus – 115,000 sf of Class A office space

When completed the entire development will be over 1,275,000 sf.


Can Jeff really support this? What will this do to 131? Wont all those stores just shift north? Hell River Falls Mall might as well give up even though Bass Pro Shops is coming. Also, I am really not too crazy about this type of development coming within 10 minutes of downtown Louisville. Fact is, the Indiana side is underdeveloped compared to the KY burbs. We are a "skewed south" city, and many locals dont even think of S. Indiana as Louisville (even though people on these boards know better.)

These national retailers need to be attracted to DOWNTOWN LOUISVILLE. Then, S. Indiana residents can learn to come downtown to destination shop. Also, what in the hell kind of department store could they be trying to lure to this? Will they just lure Dillard's over from Green Tree Mall? They want a regular department store a la Macy's and and a "discount" department store? I am thinking this means TJ Maxx and something like a Macy's, but is there even a market for that?

This development will make it even harder to attract downtown retail due to its proximity to downtown. For example, I would like to see a TJ Maxx downtown, but they cant build two stores within 10 minutes of each other in a market this size! Also this is bad for Indiana bc it basically just shifts 131 north. Eastern Boulevard is the decayed 50's strip center, and now 131 is the decayed 80's strip center. Ughh, sounds like another Springhurst except dangerously close to downtown. Am I overreacting, or will this not hurt downtown Louisville retail in the long run? The KY side is merged, but can we not let Jeffersonville know that the health of their town depends entirely on the economic engine that eminates from downtown Louisville?

http://www.jeffersonvilletowncenter.com/

I found the website for the new mall being built in Clarksville/Jeffersonville.

There are detailed maps and renderings...just thought I'd share. (and if you click on it, I find the pictures quite humerous on the first page...you'll know why when you see them)

So they are going to recreate Madrid or Buenos Aires in Jeffersonville, huh?

I worry somewhat about the effect of of this new mall on current Clarksville retail, but I have to say I am heartened by recent developments the town is undertaking.

Lewis & Clark Parkway is getting a complete overhaul that is actually amazingly nice looking. RiverFalls Mall really no longer exists, as half the place has been torn down, The Dicks and Bass Pro are both swimming along, and I have seen that they have plenty of tenents lined up for the formers Dillards spot.

The town is also undertaking a beautification of Eastern Boulevard to begin late this summer and the creation of a task force of sorts to lure new business and give tax abatements. The town has also been working to identify a suitible location and size for a new convention center (more likely an oversized meeting hall to lure in some small time conventions to the area) The town has really seen that this new development has potential to really harm Eastern and Lewis & Clark, so I think they are going to be proactive it trying to keep the roads decent.

Now, as far as harming downtown Louisville's chance to become a destination shopping experience...I have to say that chance has not existed and probably never would, no matter what. Most cities have seen their downtown malls fail, including our own city. We are being reborn with restaurants, nighclubs, and residents. Retail will be gallery boutiques and small time stuff to cater to residents, and to be honest, I am not sad about that. Downtown will never be our retail heart again, so I feel we need to realize that fact and move on with what our downtown can become today, the heart of our cities culture, sports, restaurants, and nightlife.

I wouldn't say that downtown will become a destination for retail anytime soon, but I do think it has the potential, if done rightly, to become a destination.It won't be what it was but I do think it can be way better than it is now. There is no way any kind of suburban type retail would do well simply because people won't go all the way downtown for something that is within minutes from thier home in the suburbs. Thats why retail failed in the past downtown. Does anybody think that 4th street live would be a success if instead of Hard Rock and Makers Mark they put in O'Charlies and Texas Roadhouse? In order for retail downtown to work we would need stores that we don't have here yet, such as Virgin Megastore, Urban Outfitters.. and so on. Those would have to be the anchors that would bring people in, then you go throw in a Gap, Hollister, stores that are already here but popular. All in all most the stores would have to be new to the area but well known. Even with that the development still probably couldn't draw in enough people to sustain itself, so it would have to be about half retail, and half would have to be geared toward entertainment.

The stupidity is, whatever is new that you put downtown will draw people...put cheesecake factory downtown the people will go, put PF changs downtown it will go, Nordstrom whatever insignificant thing, if it is new people will go. Yet they go to the suburbs so downtown will remain the same as long as that happens.

I worry somewhat about the effect of of this new mall on current Clarksville retail, but I have to say I am heartened by recent developments the town is undertaking.

Lewis & Clark Parkway is getting a complete overhaul that is actually amazingly nice looking. RiverFalls Mall really no longer exists, as half the place has been torn down, The Dicks and Bass Pro are both swimming along, and I have seen that they have plenty of tenents lined up for the formers Dillards spot.

The town is also undertaking a beautification of Eastern Boulevard to begin late this summer and the creation of a task force of sorts to lure new business and give tax abatements. The town has also been working to identify a suitible location and size for a new convention center (more likely an oversized meeting hall to lure in some small time conventions to the area) The town has really seen that this new development has potential to really harm Eastern and Lewis & Clark, so I think they are going to be proactive it trying to keep the roads decent.

Now, as far as harming downtown Louisville's chance to become a destination shopping experience...I have to say that chance has not existed and probably never would, no matter what. Most cities have seen their downtown malls fail, including our own city. We are being reborn with restaurants, nighclubs, and residents. Retail will be gallery boutiques and small time stuff to cater to residents, and to be honest, I am not sad about that. Downtown will never be our retail heart again, so I feel we need to realize that fact and move on with what our downtown can become today, the heart of our cities culture, sports, restaurants, and nightlife.

Jake, i am surprised by your negativity. If you dont believe downtown could support say, a Nordstrom and a few other "unique to the metro" stores, then you must have a different vision of downtown than I do. With all the lofts and condos, the gentrification of Old Louisville, and the extreme wealth of the Highlands especially around Cherokee Park with its proximity and lack of national retailers, there is ample market for retail downtown. Not to mention, I am thinking the residents of these new 500k plus homes that are becoming common in S. Indiana hills (think Floyds Knobs) would like at least a "semi-upscale" shopping option that is not 25 minutes away like st matthews. At least they will be getting the basics like Old Navy, Best Buy, etc. I mean, do you think these people like shopping on 131 at Greentree Mall? Highly doubtful. Also, you have to understand the west end has more untapped buying power than you think. Downtown stores would cater to them since they have basically zero retail nearby. The gentrified areas close to downtown would provide the retail base...and lower and middle class west end residents would amplify that. Hell the more I think about it, south end residents would probably support downtown retail too IF it was unique--aka it is not in Jefferson Mall. I mean, do you think these people in PRP like making a 30 minute trek just to go to the Gap? They could get downtown in probably half the time. Also, you cant forget how many conventioners and even wealthy daytime business people would patronize UNIQUE downtown stores before they retreat back to Prospect or Crestwood or whatever bumfuck suburb they call home.

That is why that when they approve this downtown arena, it needs to be coupled with shopping like Cordish is doing in Kansas City. Anyone care to email Cordish? Apparently Hilliard Lyons is planning on moving to the PNC tower according to Business First. That would leave an AWESOME old building with streetside windows available for a Nordstrom on Ali between 3rd and 4th, and it is directly across from 4th st live and the Seelbach--perfect. At that point, you could encourage a handful of other retailers to clean up "wig row" and convert the upper floors of those bldgs to lofts and condos. You are right it would not support a mall--but a Nordstrom anchor coupled with a TJ Maxx as well as maybe Crate and Barrel, Urban Outfitters, and about 5 others would work. 8-10 stores would be all you need to start. It MUST be done or 4th st live will fail--I promise.

Agreed Gych, When I am on 4th street live I have alot of money on me but after I go out to eat and go bowling or somethin there is nothing else to do... It would be great to be able to go down at 4:00pm and stop by Nordstrom, or the Gap then by 6:00 go out to eat then by 7:30 the concert would be starting and then around 11:00 stop by one of the "FEW" starbucks on the way home in SW Louisville and then go to bed... that would be like a once a week trip for me... but instead im like bord of everything and I knoe for a FACT that shopping of any kind would change that..

Jake, i am surprised by your negativity. If you dont believe downtown could support say, a Nordstrom and a few other "unique to the metro" stores, then you must have a different vision of downtown than I do. With all the lofts and condos, the gentrification of Old Louisville, and the extreme wealth of the Highlands especially around Cherokee Park with its proximity and lack of national retailers, there is ample market for retail downtown. Not to mention, I am thinking the residents of these new 500k plus homes that are becoming common in S. Indiana hills (think Floyds Knobs) would like at least a "semi-upscale" shopping option that is not 25 minutes away like st matthews. At least they will be getting the basics like Old Navy, Best Buy, etc. I mean, do you think these people like shopping on 131 at Greentree Mall? Highly doubtful. Also, you have to understand the west end has more untapped buying power than you think. Downtown stores would cater to them since they have basically zero retail nearby. The gentrified areas close to downtown would provide the retail base...and lower and middle class west end residents would amplify that. Hell the more I think about it, south end residents would probably support downtown retail too IF it was unique--aka it is not in Jefferson Mall. I mean, do you think these people in PRP like making a 30 minute trek just to go to the Gap? They could get downtown in probably half the time. Also, you cant forget how many conventioners and even wealthy daytime business people would patronize UNIQUE downtown stores before they retreat back to Prospect or Crestwood or whatever bumfuck suburb they call home.

That is why that when they approve this downtown arena, it needs to be coupled with shopping like Cordish is doing in Kansas City. Anyone care to email Cordish? Apparently Hilliard Lyons is planning on moving to the PNC tower according to Business First. That would leave an AWESOME old building with streetside windows available for a Nordstrom on Ali between 3rd and 4th, and it is directly across from 4th st live and the Seelbach--perfect. At that point, you could encourage a handful of other retailers to clean up "wig row" and convert the upper floors of those bldgs to lofts and condos. You are right it would not support a mall--but a Nordstrom anchor coupled with a TJ Maxx as well as maybe Crate and Barrel, Urban Outfitters, and about 5 others would work. 8-10 stores would be all you need to start. It MUST be done or 4th st live will fail--I promise.

I think the long term success of 4th Street Live is more dependent on getting the arena nearby more than anything else. 4th Street Live is a night oriented place and the arena will give it a consistant stream of customers many nights of the year, with or without nearby retail.

True.. SO DUH CITY LEADERS... put the arena DOWNTOWN:)

Retail would be nice to though>CORDISH:)

I was reading the paper recently and came across something that was kind of interesting, at least to me. The article talked about Louisville's housing market, the article stated that the market was healthy even though it only grew by single digits in the past year, similair with surrounding cities. The thing about it that caught my eye was that the markets around downtown seem to being doing the best, while oldham county's market actually showed some negative numbers. Even Shively seemed to be doing well.

Anybody see today's CJ?

What do you guys think the odds are of the four possibe arena sites they have narrowed it down to?

My personal opinion:

The LG&E property is a longshot, the silo's property is an outsider, Fairgrounds is runner-up, and Water Company site is the prefered site.

If I were a betting man, I'd put money on the Water Company site.

I would also on the Water Co. Site...b/c its just in such a prime spot but so is WF park soo you never know.

By the way.. the new Tumbleweed is the nicest and the most upscale Tumbleweed ive EVER been too....
IN MORE NEWS:
-Cheesecake Factory is moving along great
-Mall St. Matthews exterier looking alot more upscale w/ the Cheesecake Factory.
-PF Changs will open very soon
-Dixie Hwy.. begins building its first nutricioun(Spelled Wrong LOL).. food market across from Golds Gym..

By the way.. the new Tumbleweed is the nicest and the most upscale Tumbleweed ive EVER been too....
IN MORE NEWS:
-Cheesecake Factory is moving along great
-Mall St. Matthews exterier looking alot more upscale w/ the Cheesecake Factory.
-PF Changs will open very soon
-Dixie Hwy.. begins building its first nutricioun(Spelled Wrong LOL).. food market across from Golds Gym..


You know, we dont need a Cheescake Factory. Id much rather see them bring in a Saks, but its a start. Really, the best thing about Louisville is all the restaurants. Outside of Chicago we are definitely one of the best in the mid-south and midwest. We certainly blow the shit out of Nashvegas and Indy when it comes to top and innovative restuarants, and definitely Cincy, Columbus, hell probably even Detroit and STL. Bring the freaking upscale shopping.

By the way, if Hilliard Lyons moves to the PNC tower, does anyone think that Cordish could aquire their bldg on Ali btwn 3rd and 4th and lure a Nordtsrom or something?

The more I think about it the more I believe that upscale retail might just work downtown, IF part of some sort of large retail development. A Nordtsrom would be unique to the area and could possibly be something that would draw people in.

YES.. it could def. work. they should throw in Armani A/X and some more unique shops. mabye around 15 unique and then they can add the Gap and w/e else.

NORDSTROM though would work great downtown.

Wal-Mart next on list for plan in West End
Developers seek anchor tenant


By Sheldon S. Shafer
sshafer@courier-journal.com
The Courier-Journal



Five African-American businessmen say they have heard nothing lately from Target, a store they were courting to be the primary tenant in the old Philip Morris property, at Broadway and Dixie Highway, that they want to develop.

They now plan to solicit Wal-Mart and are discussing a conference center with the nearby Brown-Forman Corp. as part of the project.

The group's second six-month option on the land will expire July 31, but they hope to renew it.

David Morris, head of the Metro Development Authority, which is marketing the Philip Morris site for the city, said the city is willing to discuss that.

Asked whether anyone else had looked at the site lately, Morris said, "There have been a lot of tire kickers."

"I have always been successful because I don't give up and have stayed with my ideas," said Charlie Johnson, a member of the group who now owns C.W. Johnson Xpress, a truckload carrier business.

"The city needs this, and the West End, in particular, needs this. I am going to stay with it," he said of the attempt to redevelop the former cigarette-manufacturing complex that the city acquired in 2002 for $100.

Johnson's partners are Junior Bridgeman, whose company owns numerous Louisville-area Wendy's restaurants; auto dealer Winston Pittman; Billy Harmon, a Southern Indiana construction executive; and Wade Houston, a Louisville investor.

Bridgeman, Harmon and Houston are all former University of Louisville basketball players, and Johnson played football at U of L.

The complex contains nine buildings, some pre-dating World War II, with a total of 617,000 square feet.

Philip Morris closed the plant in 2000. Plans call for all or most of the buildings to be razed for commercial development.

Johnson said the businessmen are armed with an economic analysis indicating that a major department store at the old plant site would draw from a wide area, mainly because quality retailing is sparse downtown and in western Louisville.

The group had pitched the site to Target for months, but Johnson said yesterday that "we thought we had a deal, but they just haven't gotten back with us."

He said Houston is making overtures to Wal-Mart through some former National Basketball Association players he knows. He declined to be more specific.

He said he believes Wal-Mart is now the best prospect for an anchor tenant.

Corporate spokesmen for both Target and Wal-Mart did not return phone calls.

Johnson said plans call for a 95,000-square-foot department store, a 40,000-square-foot conference center, plus about 400 parking spaces and development of several out lots with restaurants and perhaps a branch bank. The group expects to spend about $6 million on the project.

Johnson said the group has had positive feedback from Brown-Forman executives about use of any conference center.

Johnson said it would include executive suites for out-of-town corporate visitors, a fitness center, an auditorium and ample meeting rooms.

Brown-Forman's headquarters, just south of the site on Dixie, has about 1,000 employees. "If they develop a conference center, with a theater-style facility, we would probably use it," Brown-Forman spokesman Phil Lynch said.

"We don't have that here. And our employees would probably be interested in a fitness center."

Lynch said the businessmen did not ask for any financial commitment from the distiller.

Meanwhile, the same group wants to redevelop the former Broadway Cinemas property at 1211 W. Broadway that it bought earlier this year. "We have some real serious interest" from prospective tenants, including a clothing store and a discount chain store, Johnson said.

Development transplants urban style to suburbs
Project aims to reflect older Louisville neighborhoods

By Chris Otts
cotts@courier-journal.com
The Courier-Journal



It's still a year away, but Cissy Walker, 53, is eagerly awaiting her "dream day."

She would start the day working from the basement of her new $379,000 Federal-style home, helping her husband, a real-estate title abstractor.

Then she would take her grandsons for a walk to a nearby park, stroll to the market to pick up something fresh to cook for dinner and have a front-porch conversation with her neighbors before heading inside.

One part of her dream already is in place: the house. It will be at least a year before parks, restaurants and shops spring up around it. But Walker says it will be worth the wait.

She and her husband, Scott, 49, are among the first residents of Norton Commons, a 600-acre "traditional town" development in eastern Jefferson County that promises the look and feel of an urban Louisville neighborhood in the suburbs.

"I think we're the antithesis of suburbanism, from the architecture on," said David Tomes of Traditional Town LLC, a group of local developers building Norton Commons.

Seven years in the making, Norton Commons is an attempt to build a pedestrian-friendly town with an urban atmosphere -- with a mix of houses, apartments and townhouses, pools, parks, playgrounds, restaurants, shops and a school all within a few minutes' walk.

It's just beginning to take shape, with work started on about 50 houses and only a handful of residents.

It will take about 12 years, said Charles Osborn III, another of the project's developers.

Builders are about to break ground on retail space in the village center with the hopes that markets, coffeehouses and restaurants will open next summer, he said.

Norton Commons -- one of more than 700 "New Urban" communities built or planned around the country -- was designed by architect Andres Duany, who in 1981 helped create Seaside, Fla., the country's first New Urban community.

New Urbanism is an increasingly popular countermovement to suburban sprawl that spread across U.S. cities after World War II, said John Norquist, president of the Congress on New Urbanism, a Chicago-based nonprofit group.

It discards suburban zoning that leads to winding streets, cul-de-sacs and separated retail areas that force residents to drive -- even to get milk.

It took 18 months to get a separate zoning ordinance enacted for Norton Commons, Tomes said.

Norton Commons homes mimic those in older neighborhoods in Louisville, such as Cherokee Triangle, Crescent Hill and Old Louisville.

"Look at the Cherokee Triangle. We fight tooth and nail to preserve every inch of that," Tomes said. "Yet there wasn't a law on the books that would allow us to re-create that."

Metro Louisville planning director Charles Cash said the city prefers the development of complete communities, where people have more access to retail closer to their homes.

"People want a contemporary lifestyle with the conveniences of the great American small town," Cash said.

The houses will not be cheap -- with prices ranging from at least $200,000 to several million dollars, he said.

Townhouses will start at $160,000, and apartments will be built later, with rental rates still undetermined, he said.

But Louisville developer Chris Fuelling said New Urbanism could work for people who prefer small yards and who like to walk, but he said there's still plenty of demand for large houses on big lots.

"I'm finding that people just want a lot of land, and they don't want houses stacked on top of each other," said Fuelling, who co-owns Fuelling Built Homes.

Rick and Trish Garlock, owners of The Treasured Child toy store in La Grange, are planning to open a store in Norton Commons. They are looking at buying a "live-work" space in the village square, where they will live in a 3,000-square-foot apartment above their store.

The couple lived in Europe for several years, Rick Garlock said, where such neighborhoods were common.

"You got in your car once a week maybe. You went out the front door and there was the butcher, a grocery shop where you got fresh fruit, a clothing shop," he said. "That kind of lifestyle is appealing."

Cissy Walker said she is already forming neighborhood friendships. The Walkers felt isolated in their old house, which sat on 5 acres in the Fox Trail subdivision of La Grange.

"We had neighbors in La Grange who had been there for two years, and my husband had never even spoken to them," she said.

For her husband, Scott Walker, the new house, with only a few feet of grass between it and the sidewalk, is a welcome change.

"I was a little tired of taking care of the yard," he said of old house. "I just didn't have the weekends free to maintain all that."

Gaylon Owens, 42, a resident physician who just moved to Louisville with his wife, said Norton Commons was perfect for them. They moved from a Memphis, Tenn., neighborhood similar to Louisville's Highlands.

They wanted to live in an urban neighborhood, but they also didn't want the maintenance an old house requires.

"We were kind of depressed, like, where are we going to go?" said Owens, who is completing his residency in internal medicine at University Hospital.

They were planning on getting an apartment until they heard about Norton Commons, he said. They just moved into a $370,000 Federal-style house across the street from the Walkers.

Owens' wife, Kristi, a resident oncologist, is due to deliver a baby girl in October, he said.

"We like the idea of being able to go to a park in our neighborhood or take the baby carriage and go down the street to the ice cream parlor," he said. "I know it sounds kind of corny. But it's better than getting in the car to go somewhere."

I noticed it's been quiet in here the past few days, I found these articles in today's paper and thought they were interesting, both very positive for Louisville.

Those are some very interesting articles on 2 very unique topics. U know though Walmart would be a good thing to mabye help revitalize the west end more.. Even though Wal Mart isnt really an inner city thing I think it may be good for the west end.. And as far as Norton Commons goes.. I love it and weve been looking at mabye buying a home in thier.

That sucks that the movie theater 'redeveloping' means making it into a strip mall of a discount store and a clothing store, hopefully at least there will be talks of a theater downtown. I believe one of the keys to making Louisville revitalized is to be mixed up like so many other cities, and have options in the west end. Even if they are not rediculously awesome, at least they will be there, which is why I support the Wal-Mart, I have always said that a Wal-Mart would work well over there.

YUP.

Courier Journal reports today that Waterfront Park Phase III will be completely finished including the walkway bridge to S. Indiana by early 2008.

Also many of Louisville's Dairy Queens will soon be converted to their new concept the DQ Grill & Chill over 4 have already opened in the suburbs of W. Point; Bardstown; Shepherdsville and One in Jefferson County on Taylorsville Rd. with more soon on their way...

www.courierjournal.com
Sunday July 24, 2005

I got to say that Waterfront Park is probably the best thing to happen to downtown in a LONG time. If it wasn't for the park we probably wouldn't have this forum (or at least much to say). It was the thing that got the rebirth of dowtown started, I saw a picture of Louisville when the Great Lawn was still a bunch of scrap yards, I was really surprised to see what a transformation that was, it is truely remarkable. Now that are is well on its way to becoming one of the most desirable places to live in the city. I truely believe that east main's success is the key to bringing in retail and more entertainment to downtown. I would even dare to say that this area is even more important piece to downtown's puzzle than an arena. With that said Waterfront Park Place and Preston Pointe both seemed to be on the way to filling up, as well as the condos accross from Slugger Field. Any information on the old Brindley Hardy site will be developing?

They will start construction on the Hub apartments and the Fleur de Lis Condos after they finish using the area for the Mercantile Gallery Lofts rehab and construction. By 2008, that area should be full of very high income residents. I think at that point, with those AWESOME and extremely expensive condos going in on the river near the eastern edge of Waterfront Park (River Park Place), that there will be enough high dollar residents downtown to absolutely demand that a developer build an urban grocery/video store and hopefully we can get a 24 hr walgreens or convenience store downtown.

Not to mention, with the increase in expensive hotels, you are getting more tourists out at night who may want these options. By 2010, Clarksdale aka Liberty Green will be a nice new mixed use development with thousands of units and tons more buying power. Then you have Soho Condos, Lofts of Broadway, Off Broadway Lofts , and TONS of others. Even Kentucky Towers at 5th and Ali is doing extensive renovations to put them in line with their high rise neighbor, Barrington Place. This should slowly draw more upper income young professionals downtown. This is leaving out that fact that Old Louisville, Clifton, and Butchertown are adding upper income residents like they havent before. At that point, between 2008 and 2010, downtown should have 5 times the retail amenities it does now.

As for Walmart, the only place inside 264 where I would accept one is in West Louisville. That area desperately needs this, and maybe that would put "wig row" out of business so we can put some retail in.

By the way, check out the separate thread I made about Norton Commons in the US Urban issues area.

By the way, heres the link to Rover Park Place:

http://www.iconpropertiesllc.com/properties-riverpark.shtml

The developers are local and behind many area projects that are upscale--mostly suburban. Their suburban expertise is actually good here because the river location and relative lack of "urban grit" around th eriver could draw ppl to this development that would mostly always prefer the suburbs. Although downtown TECHNICALLY, most cities would include this in their downtown population stats since the areas they have reported on for downtown housing purposes have become overinflated.

Going against the flow
Downtown draws reverse commuters


By Christie Smythe
csmythe@courier-journal.com
The Courier-Journal

While some commuters battle traffic on the way to work in Louisville each day, Danielle Braxton has it easy. Her 10-mile, 15-minute drive is a breeze.

She's a reverse commuter, traveling from her Crescent Centre condo downtown to her job at the Pillsbury plant in New Albany, Ind.

On her way, Braxton sometimes takes satisfaction in glancing at the traffic-choked lanes on the other side of Interstate 64.

"I'm usually the side that's moving, watching the people on the other side just sitting," she said.

Downtown property managers say a huge selling point for their apartments and condos has been career convenience: the ability to walk to work.

But some downtown residents who have jobs elsewhere were wooed strictly by other attractions: access to public transportation, museums, pavilions, restaurants and 4th Street Live.

Whatever their reasons for living downtown, they say it's usually easier to commute against the flow of traffic.

For Braxton, 25, the location of her workplace wasn't much of a factor in her search for a residence. After growing up in western Louisville and earning a bachelor's degree from Florida A&M and a master's from Purdue, she knew where she wanted to live.

"Downtown was the main place where I was looking," she said. "It makes me feel like I'm in a big city."

The same goes for 29-year-old Mike Gabhart, who was raised in Shively. After getting a bachelor's degree from Georgetown University in Washington, D.C., and a master's from Xavier, he took a job in Cincinnati.

But when he moved to Louisville to work at U.S. Voice & Data off Blankenbaker Parkway, he quickly decided to live downtown -- 12 miles away from work. He and his cousin are closing on a condo in the Levy building.

"Coming back and visiting Louisville, you see 4th Street Live, the ballpark, and the riverfront is just gorgeous," he said.

Reverse commuting is far from the norm for corporate employees but is a growing phenomenon, said University of Pennsylvania professor Eugenie Birch, who studies the nation's downtowns.

The trend is occurring as some downtowns revamp themselves and attract young, well-educated residents who enjoy urban life, she said.

"They're thrilled with the walkability of cities, getting to things that they like to do," she said. The pull is the "general excitement of living in a dense, urban place."

Nationally, the numbers of people reverse commuting grew from 21.8 percent in 1990 to 25.3 percent in 2000, according to the U.S. Census Bureau. Similar figures for the Louisville area aren't available.

Still, the number of young professionals living downtown is believed to have increased significantly since 2000, said David Peterson, president of Louisville Central Area, an economic development group.

From 2000 to 2004, the number of people living in downtown apartments and condos grew by about 20 percent to more than 4,000, according to Louisville Central Area figures.

Coupled with that trend, corporations are moving out of city centers and into lower-cost suburban areas, which is contributing to rising instances of reverse commuting, Birch said.

Vacancy rates in downtown Louisville office buildings have continued to rise over the past several years. The average rate was about 21 percent in 2004, compared with approximately 16 percent in 2001, according to Louisville Central Area.

Ray Vance, a superintendent at The Worthington on Second Street, said two residents who are reverse commuters don't do so by choice -- their jobs moved from downtown to Blankenbaker Parkway.

Ron Luce, property manager of Kentucky Towers Apartments on Fifth Street, said he knows some residents there commute in reverse. And considering that they're young professionals, he's not surprised.

"They can come home, take a shower, and go to 4th Street Live, museums, entertainment centers," Luce said. "That's their draw and they like to have that in close proximity to where they live."

As the downtown housing market expands, it might attract more workers who choose to commute in reverse -- even those closer to middle age who have families, said University of Louisville urban planning professor Steven Bourassa.

Downtown residents established a neighborhood association in the past year, and its meetings attract 20 to 30 residents, president Polly Moter said. She runs her own business, ProMoter Marketing Communications, from the Fourth Street building where she lives.

A neighborhood feel helped Grace Bowman, who lives at the Crescent Centre on Third Street, fall in love with downtown.

"When you're walking down the street you can wave and say, 'Hey, that's my neighbor,' " said Bowman, 43, who's married and has a 16-year-old stepson.

She said her morning commute to Middletown isn't bad, at about 20 minutes.

I read that article in the CJ, I found it pretty interesting, once I get out of college my goal is to work for Ernst & Young and be able to walk to work,4thstreetlive, and not to mention many other entertainment venues. Hopefully with the new arena I would also be able to walk to concerts, u of l basketball games, and maybe some NBA games. The city has actually made a good effort on making downtown more attractive for younger people with 4th street live, waterfront park, even the skatepark. I know one night I went up to waterfront park with some friends and the great lawn was full of catholic school kids ( trinity, st.x, sacred heart, etc..), ten years ago you would have never seen this downtown. If you go down on any given summer night you will run in to many college age kids (me included). I know a lot of people my age who only go to waterfront park. In my opinion if you want to get young professionals downtown, stir thier interest in downtown while they're young.

I was searching around and finally discovered this picture of the new Riverpark Place after noticing the website gych had mentioned



http://services.contentmagic.com/images/93_1110211246198.jpg

Wow, thats looks really awesome, so is this in the planning stages or is there actually a date for contruction? I'd say with this build along with all the east main activity that downtown, retail is just around the corner.

Wow, thats looks really awesome, so is this in the planning stages or is there actually a date for contruction? I'd say with this build along with all the east main activity that downtown, retail is just around the corner.

Yeah that was my point Card04, it will really booost the number of high end units downtown. Drive to the corner of river road and Frankfort ave and there is a sign up. Construction will start this fall and be completed in phases. With this big of a project, it should take a good 3 years, and that is where I get my 2008-2010 projection for drastic retail changes downtown.

I really cant consider that downtown, even though it is on the edge I just dont see it affecting downtown retail a great deal, I guess unless they were going to jump into cars and park them in the galleria garage to go shopping or do what they do, but what is the point in that? They can just shoot up Frankfort and be in St. Matthews and park for free. Nice development though, I saw the sign up for it a few weeks ago.

"this big of a project"
You got that right, it looks like a huge project (I think the website said something about 30 acres), any idea on what the price ranges will be. On the Norton Commons thread gych you spoke about infill projects, I know this isn't exactly infill but close, and will probably lead to it....

South Louisville's renaissance
Neighborhood develops rapidly

By Chris Poynter
cpoynter@courier-journal.com
The Courier-Journal



Standing on the roof of the former American Air Filter building, Fred Faulkner surveyed the once-gritty section of South Louisville he is helping reinvent.

Behind him was the immaculate new Jim Patterson baseball stadium, built by the University of Louisville on land Faulkner owned.

Across the street he saw his Central Station shopping center, which includes a new Kroger supermarket. Below him, workers were busy renovating the 1950s building into a medical and office complex."This is probably one of the wilder things I've ever done," said Faulkner, president of the development company Faulkner Hinton & Associates, which has invested $25 million to overhaul the 22-acre former air-filter property.

Today, Louisville Metro Mayor Jerry Abramson will cut the ribbon on Central Station's most recent transformation -- a medical and office complex that includes a Frazier Rehab Center and the University of Louisville Family Medicine practice.

It's the latest in a series of developments along Central Avenue and Crittenden Drive that have helped revive the declining neighborhood that is home to three city institutions: Churchill Downs, the University of Louisville and the Kentucky Fair & Exposition Center.

Kevin Ray and Simone Devoe, shopping at the Central Station Kroger last week, said the improvements are welcome.

"When I heard a Kroger was coming, I couldn't wait," said Ray, who lives in the neighborhood and is glad to see more shops in the area.

The only negative effect, he said, is that the addition of parking at Central Station took business from homeowners, who had parked cars on their property during the week of the Kentucky Derby.

Devoe, 39, said the developments have made the Central corridor "more exciting." Even though she doesn't live in the area, she occasionally shops at the Kroger.Faulkner's development and other multimillion-dollar projects, including the construction of the $63 million Papa John's Cardinal Stadium and the $121 million facelift for Churchill Downs, have "reinvigorated this part of town," Abramson said.

More development could be on the way, as the Kentucky Transportation Cabinet studies connecting Interstate 65 to Central Avenue.

In addition, the fairgrounds, just off Central Avenue, is one of four sites being considered for a new arena, which will be used primarily by the U of L men's basketball team.

A long time coming
Central Avenue's redevelopment has been in the works since the late 1980s, when the city hired Bullock, Smith and Partners, an architectural and urban planning company from Knoxville, Tenn., to craft a plan to improve South Louisville.

The area, though home to landmarks like Churchill Downs, was run-down and gritty. There were vacant buildings, decaying homes and large tracts of industrial land that sat underused.

Because there was no direct east-west road that connected the fairgrounds with U of L and the Downs, revitalization efforts over the years foundered.

Residents were skeptical that the grandiose plan would become reality, saying they had seen developers promise improvements but fail to deliver.

Bullock devised a long-term strategy that included new and improved roads that would connect the racetrack, the university and the fairgrounds.

It said commercial development should be encouraged along Central Avenue and recommended developing the former CSX railroad property, which later became home of Papa John's Cardinal Stadium.

"It's really exciting to see that happen," David Forkner, a Bullock vice president, said last week.

The key to the revitalization, Forkner said, was widening Central Avenue and connecting it to Crittenden Drive, a $24 million, eight-year project completed in 2000.

Once reopened, the road created the vital east-west connector, and development soon followed, Forkner said.

The improved road, however, came at a cost: 30 homes and businesses were demolished, including the landmark Wagner's Pharmacy on South Fourth Street.

Owner Lee Wagner, whose business includes a short-order grill that is popular among Churchill Downs workers, moved to a nearby building.

Sitting inside the pharmacy last week, Wagner said the new road and the redevelopment that followed have been positive.

"It's made Churchill Downs' surroundings a lot nicer," he said.

The construction has helped U of L improve the southern end of its campus, President James Ramsey said, by creating a more attractive entrance to the university.

He said U of L plans to build on that redevelopment by working with The Housing Partnership, a local nonprofit agency, to renovate homes along Third and Fourth streets, off Central Avenue.

Neighborhood reborn
Faulkner said he was willing to redevelop the American Air Filter property because the new Central Avenue changed traffic patterns and made connections easier.

Central Station has been under way since 2000, when Faulkner bought the American Air Filter property after the company moved to Hurstbourne Parkway, another Faulkner development.

The company, now called AAF International, makes dust collectors, air filters and other pollution control devices. It moved because the Central Avenue extension sliced through its property.

Faulkner demolished acres of warehouses and smaller buildings to make room for Central Station.

Now that his project is nearly complete, he believes the neighborhood is poised for more improvements, including apartments and condominiums. One company has already announced plans to build condos on Floyd Street, near the stadium.

"It's starting to really pop," Faulkner said.

This article failed to mention the condos that are already planned for the site across from Papa Johns.

I really cant consider that downtown, even though it is on the edge I just dont see it affecting downtown retail a great deal, I guess unless they were going to jump into cars and park them in the galleria garage to go shopping or do what they do, but what is the point in that? They can just shoot up Frankfort and be in St. Matthews and park for free. Nice development though, I saw the sign up for it a few weeks ago.

I think you are dead wrong here SChris. Many other cities with bloated downtown numbers take in vast areas for their "downtown population counts." I've seen some cities try and count 5-7 square miles of people as "downtown."

River Park Place is not technically downtown and I dont consider it so, but these coupled with other east/main market lofts will substantially increase the demographics of the downtown corridor. People living in these high end units will want a good grocery and video store close AT THE VERY LEAST. In addition, the more yuppies who move downtown or close, the better chance of getting more retail. Its common sense and its all about the trade area and downtown doesnt have the buying power yet.

This development is at LEAST 15 minutes from any shopping at say, St Mathews Mall and you would have to go through dozens of lights and traffic during the day. With no traffic ever on River road, you could get to the 4th street live area from here in less than 5 minutes. At the very least the opening of all these units will get downtown the basic services it lacks as a neighborhood--a good grocery (not ghetto Kroger on 2nd), a nice blockbuster, maybe a meat shop, etc. This is nothing to scream about but they are important amenities to a downtown resident.


Speaking of East Market, Bim Dietrich is opening an upscale bistro Italian restuarant in Coblat Marketplace. It will be called Primo I think and will specialize in wood fired pizzas.

Also, anyone have info on the Ali Center. It is sposed to open in November with dignitaries and celebrities from across the globe coming---but the exterior isnt even finished! How in the hell are they going to get this thing done? Or has the date been pushed back to November 2006?

I dont care what other cities include in their downtown population numbers, they will have to drive to what they want whether its downtown or not. I dont see these "High Class" people walking in summer heat or winter snow to downtown for a video or some food and bringing it back. They will get into automobiles which will take them where they want which is right up frankfort avenue to the Mall St. Matthews and Whole Foods Market. THAT is common sense, unless their parking is free or they are close these "yuppies" you speak of arent going to make the hassle of downtown.

Fifteen minutes, whatever this isnt Detroit or Los Angeles, Mall St. Matthews is NOT that far from river road, AND it is already there and in a safe neighborhood that "yuppies" love. Oh and again with free parking and less parking hassle. If these people are driving anyways what is the difference in having a downtown that is bearing all the subruban whatnots like kroger. And oh yay more god damn pizza in central Louisville arent Louisvillians fat enough !!?? j/k gych I like to play with ya ;).

1: Start out going SOUTHEAST on FRANKFORT AVE toward E WASHINGTON ST. 0.4 miles Map

2: Turn RIGHT onto STORY AVE / US-42 W / US-60 TRUCK W. 0.2 miles Map

3: Turn LEFT onto N SPRING ST. 0.1 miles Map

4: Turn LEFT onto MELLWOOD AVE / US-42 E / US-60 TRUCK E. <0.1 miles Map

5: Merge onto I-64 E. 5.2 miles Map

6: Take the I-264 / WATTERSON EXPRESSWAY exit- EXIT 12. 0.1 miles Map

7: Take the I-264 E / WATTERSON EXPRESSWAY exit- EXIT 12B- on the LEFT. 1.6 miles Map

8: Merge onto SHELBYVILLE RD / US-60 TRUCK W via EXIT 20B toward ST MATTHEWS. 0.4 miles Map

9: Make a U-TURN onto SHELBYVILLE RD / US-60 TRUCK E. <0.1 miles Map

10: End at 5000 Shelbyville Rd
Louisville, KY 40207-3342, US Map

Total Est. Time: 12 minutes Total Est. Distance: 8.45 miles


So, I was off by a couple minutes, but this way uses the freeway and doesnt account for the insanely long turn times at stoplights espescially into the malls. Therefore, going straight up frankfort could take 15-20 minutes depending on the day no joke (I mean, it is over 8 miles away).

Now, would you rather do that or take the oh so pretty and pleasant 3 minute drive up river road to shop at a good urban grocery downtown? I fully guarantee that many of these residents will choose the latter, and regardless, upscale people living downtown or close raise the dempographic profile of the area and make it more attractive to retailers. Many of these people will also utilize restaurants and shopping along Frankfort and Brownsboro in Clifton and Clifton Heights. But they whol area is gentrifying and becoming yuppie quick, so we have yet another hood VERY close to downtown to raise the demographic profile of the center city. That is what is happeing in many cities, and Louisville is no different!!

Really though what is the point in your opinion when these people are getting into cars anyways. Why should we care about downtown when it is going to be the same as St. Matthews.

I cant reach into these peoples heads obviously, but that is all I am saying 10 minutes in a car (Louisvillians drive pretty fast) is the same as going downtown for a few shitty stores even if there was Nordstrom or some crap CCF and Changs and all the upscale friends are on Shelbyville Rd.

I am not doubting a video rental place (which isnt present in most downtowns) and an urban grocery would be cool, am just saying this development doesnt really secure that. An urban grocery probably isnt that far off though as they are usually small, I mean Virisian in Nashville is getting one, they are in the bottoms of buildings in Cincy which arent really that special just as good as our walgreens etc, if you are expecting a full sized grocer like kroger highlands dream the f**k on lol.

I agree that other cities are urbanizing, and we are too, but all in good time dude. Dont overplay it, these things take time and I see most of your posts as too ambitious which to others can seem like some sort of my city is the best garbage, which is irritating and sets people up for dissappointment. Also, honestly I am really questioning you because of the overuse of the word yuppie, everything doesnt have to be overpriced and inflated to be cool dude, get over it. I have a feeling if you went to West LA youd turn to stone.

I am not really sure what in the hell you are trying to prove. BY yuppie, I mean rich, upper income empty nesters who are moving back into cities. Who in the hell you think is moving into WFPP?

Being too ambitious? How am I if I am merely stating facts? You are the one who dumbs things down and tries to make things sound horrible. I have been to many parts of LA, what in the hell is your point? I also lived in Indy for a bit and Chicago for quite some time, and have traveled to NYC, London, Paris, and Rome among others. What does LA have to do with anything LOUISVILLE?

Also, yuppie is not great, I HATE yuppie. But yuppies are who live in St Matthews, and that is why they have all the shopping. You want shopping, you have to have yuppies nearby--simple retail demographics prove this. So basically, you are just trying to be a jerk. Once again, if you dont like Louisville or dont have something constructive to post, then leave!

Dude I am not attacking YOU personally (So I dont care if you have been to Marion Ohio) , I am saying Louisville is not a big city. It is a normal mid sized city and what trends state is that no matter what downtown developments occur this fantasy retail isnt returning and it has no reason to with the large facilities in the suburbs already present. odd you mention Indianapolis, but it is an anomaly with the retail, and in your many posts I can gather that you can see why Indianapolis works.

Yes people that spend, have what they spend on nearby, through various research by different companies. What I am saying is why do you care if downtown has chain after chain and a bunch of faux bullshit when St. Matthews already has it, why is this stuff somehow better downtown?

And again my friend I didnt say I didnt like Louiville I am thinking real. We are not getting some stupid BS Nordstrom or Neiman Marcus dowtown or anything of the sort so shut the hell up and accept it for what it is. I think you are the closet one who hates it here and wants all this stuff, but cant accept it for what it is. Its a 1.3 mil. metro dude.

Shouldn't we be eulogizing that new Walgreens at Brook & Broadway? What's with all the repugnance? :wtf:

Yea.. that new Walgreens is pretty cool looking to... Also CVS is on 4th street..

So since this thread is about development, I thought I would post some of the the things that I know are going on and then we could all add to them.

1. The Wyndham 21 Hotel/Museum/Restaurant - 4 floors - 95 rooms u/c

Here is an older article from Wyndham announcing the hotel along with the Wyndham Louisville Airport, which I dont know what is going on with that, does anyone know?
http://www.wyndham.com/corporate/pressreleases/pressreleasedetail/main.wnt?ReleaseID=505443

2. The Lofts of Broadway Renovation - 7 floors - 83 Lofts - U/C

3. Residence Inn - 6 Floors - 140 Suites - Opening Sept. 2005? according to Marriott.Com. I have been downtown alot, but havnt seen it under construction, maybe I am blind. It is supposed to be at 333 E. Market St.

4. All the lofts around the ballpark, maybe someone can list them more specifically and their specs, because I dont really know their names. I know 2 are almost completed, it looks like at least 80 new units will be up by the end of summer over there.

I would like to know more about what is oing on in the city surrounding, such as Clifton or the Highlands. I knew about Clifton Lofts, but I havnt been over that way in forever. Also the suburbs, I am a little out of tune to that too because it isnt as publicized, Although I did hear of alot of new shopping around Bashford Manor Ln.

Hmm, well taking off subject for a moment, I was at the oxmoor mall recently, looking for a new bag to carry stuff in for school this year, and did not find exactly what I wanted. Bummed, I decided I would have to look somewhere else. I almost went to Mall St. Matthew's, but decided that getting back onto Shelbyville road would be murder at that time of day. So I left through Oxmoor woods subdivision back to Hurstbourne.
But I was thinking, if there were some sort of skyway or tram to take me across the expressway and bypass messy shelbyville road, I would have used it in a heartbeat.
A one track tram, one similar to trams commonly used in hospital complexes, would extend business to both malls, and no longer make it a choice of 'Which mall are we going to?' but 'Which mall are we parking at?'
I would REALLY like one of those arround Xmas time especially!

^^^ Bashford manor is actually SORTA turning around. Wal-mart, Lowes, Target, and, I have heard from my sister who used to work there, that Sullivan University has shown some interest in the old Showcase Louisville theatres. But some of those nasty Pawn shops and offices have GOT TO GO. IOh well, at least the Toy Tiger is gone... eesh...


Here's the site For The Lofts of Broadway
http://www.loftsofbroadway.com/
Very spiffy, I would like one for myself.

I think Sullivan University would be wonderful for the old Showcase Cinemas. I used to attend Sullivan and that campus' design was a pain in the ass. It was so compact, parking was messy especially with all the buses there for transporting students to dorms and such. It might also do something to help gentrify the Bashford Manor/Buechel area a tiny bit (coupled with the big box stores opening on the site of the former Bashford Manor Mall).

By the way, I just came across this in the Courier Journal:

http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050728/NEWS0102/507280419/1008/NEWS01

I've got a little more than an iota of ambivalency about the closings because I fear that it's going to back up traffic even more so than it is usually onto Bardstown Rd. (I live and work off of Bardstown Rd., it's atrocious most times of the day) but the end result will be worth it.

Well at least it's getting done. I live out here in Fern Creek and all these VERY abrubt lane shift have been freakin the hell outta me because drivers don't pay attention and then swerve over. Baaaad drivers....

What I am REALLY excited about now is the extension of Hurstbourne to Fern Valley. That's how I'm getting to school and downtown now. It's a much faster drive from where I live getting to 65 via hurstbourne than bardstown all the way to the watterson and then 65. Makes my life a whole lot easier not dealing with so many lights. :okay:

LOL, where does everyone here live, it seems like most of us live out in the suburbs, considering the site that is kinda funny.

Personally I live out in Highview.

Oh by the way I forgot to mention our new upscale chain restaurant situation with the Cheesecake Factory (a good place although I know they are in Des Moines now), PF Changs, of course the long open J Alexanders and all the rest, and the recently opened Fox And Hound.

I also forgot about the development (cant remember what it is called) which will bring us our first Costco and Red Robin along with some medical facility off Brownsboro Rd.

LOL, where does everyone here live, it seems like most of us live out in the suburbs, considering the site that is kinda funny.

Personally I live out in Highview.

I live in Hurstbourne. Because Louisville encompasses all of Jefferson County, I am just as much a Louisvillian as somebody who lives downtown or in the Highlands.

Hmm, well taking off subject for a moment, I was at the oxmoor mall recently, looking for a new bag to carry stuff in for school this year, and did not find exactly what I wanted. Bummed, I decided I would have to look somewhere else. I almost went to Mall St. Matthew's, but decided that getting back onto Shelbyville road would be murder at that time of day. So I left through Oxmoor woods subdivision back to Hurstbourne.
But I was thinking, if there were some sort of skyway or tram to take me across the expressway and bypass messy shelbyville road, I would have used it in a heartbeat.
A one track tram, one similar to trams commonly used in hospital complexes, would extend business to both malls, and no longer make it a choice of 'Which mall are we going to?' but 'Which mall are we parking at?'
I would REALLY like one of those arround Xmas time especially!


I have thought they should do that for years... It would probably make the malls feel more connected and sorta like a tourist thing(who dont wanna ride the tram)plus it would be less dificult b/c you would not have to travel Shelbyville Road..(what a mess).. I think everyone should e-mail general growth even though it probably wouldnt do much but its worth a try to get some ideas in their head.

^^^I just got back from helping a friend buy a birthday present at oxmoor mall and I'll be damned if it didn't happen again. We wanted to check out some places at St. Matthew so bad, but by no means wanted to drive to the other mall. I was looking around at the land between the malls, and it would be completely feasible to put a very short track between them.
I tell you, a tram would put more business in both malls. It would no longer have to be a competition of who has the better stores and what not, because people could go to both malls. I thinik it could also get the ball rollng for commuter trains around louisville in the distant future.

I live in Hurstbourne. Because Louisville encompasses all of Jefferson County, I am just as much a Louisvillian as somebody who lives downtown or in the Highlands.

Very true, Fern Creek couldn't be farther from downtown, but I am all over Louisville and anyone who says I'm not really a Louisvillian can stick it. :D

I really dont think driving to a mall 3 blocks away is that big of a deal, I do it all the time. Putting in a line that would probably run 3 million plus for some malls seems a little silly to me.

I have always fantasized about an underground passageway between the malls. The passageway would be lined with shops and restaurants.

It would basically all be one gigantic mall, possibly the biggest in the world!

I think the two malls would probably be best left unconnected. The two malls are almost one half of a mile apart and a walkway of any sort between the two would be incredulously long and the walk would be daunting. The Somerset Collection outside of Detroit has a 250 yard long walkway going over Big Beaver Rd. between the north and south sides of the mall and it is longer than one would expect (even with the moving walkways). A tram would be a waste of General Growth's money, as the drive between Oxmoor and Mall St. Matthews really isn't THAT odious.

By the way, I live in Fern Creek and I really enjoy living out here.

The future development of the Oxmoor farm calls for a road to be built connecting the two malls on the back side. It will cross over Watterson Expressway between Shelbyville Rd and I-64.

Yeah, Bunsen Parkway is supposed to be extended from its current terminus at the KFB building to the north side of Camden Oxmoor apartments and then over the Watterson to become the southern part of Mall St. Matthews' loop road and connect to Bowling Blvd.

^^^Oky doky, that'll work for me. haha
I know that it sounds a little unecessary, visionary sort of projects, but living in the suburbs, I'm quite frankly sick of cars and driving. I think there are too many people who do a whole lot of driving in Louisville, and any way to bypass some of it would be just be an over all good thing for everyone.
Tarc just doesn't do it for me. A bus hits the same stop lights a car does.

^I really don't mind driving in Louisville. Nothing is more than 15-20 minutes away and there is rarely any traffic to sit in.

Try driving in a place like Atlanta or Houston (not that I have ever done it) and you will appreciate how quick and simple it is to get around Louisville.

Try driving in even a smaller place like Cincinnati, it is horrible. Louisville's roads are abnormally wide in most places or just right in others. We have traffic, but not very much at all. I am very satisfied with the way traffic moves here, it could be ALOT worse.

That is very true.. ALOT worse.. in 2003 when I lived in Seattle for 3 months i was soo discusted with all the traffic.. It was almost rediculous.

Hmm this is true. I visited an aunt over spring break in Duluth, a suburb of Atlanta, and getting around anywhere was just plain stupid. hah
I don't mind it so much as taking time to get places, just that there aren't more opportunities when I feel like bypassing cars. I would especially like something that would take me downtown for morning commute.
Of course our morning traffic isn't ANYTHING like Atlanta's(barf), true, but it would still be useful just the same. But I don't see anything like that happening for a loong time.

^^^I just got back from helping a friend buy a birthday present at oxmoor mall and I'll be damned if it didn't happen again. We wanted to check out some places at St. Matthew so bad, but by no means wanted to drive to the other mall. I was looking around at the land between the malls, and it would be completely feasible to put a very short track between them.
I tell you, a tram would put more business in both malls. It would no longer have to be a competition of who has the better stores and what not, because people could go to both malls. I thinik it could also get the ball rollng for commuter trains around louisville in the distant future.



Very true, Fern Creek couldn't be farther from downtown, but I am all over Louisville and anyone who says I'm not really a Louisvillian can stick it. :D


Well, whether you admit it or not, Fern Creek is a SUBURB. True, now it is officially part of Louisville and it really isnt that far from downtown by big city standards (10-12 miles as the crow flies). And for some reason, Louisvillians for decades have not realized the distinction btwn city and suburb (do regular Louisvillians even use the word suburb? Even people living in surrounding counties would say they live in Oldham County rather than saying, Crestwood, KY, a suburb of Louisville)

BUT, the point is that Fern Creek/Glenmary/MT Wahsington etc are not CITY. In fact, there is nothing "city" about anything outside 264/Watterson X way. In fact there are a few areas right inside 264 that I consider suburban--Mall St. Matthews is one area. Once again, just because "you can get downtown in 15 minutes" doesnt mean you live in the city. It just means you live in a suburb (albeit perhaps an inner ring suburb) of a mid-sized city that has little traffic outside of 745-845 am and 430-530 pm!!!

Me though? I live in the city. Downtown to be exact :)

Gych, you are using the word "surburban" to refer to the character of a place. The way I tend to use the word is to refer to areas located outside of Louisville (like Oldham or Shelby counties, for example). These means that I may live in a subdivision in Hurstbourne, but I can claim Louisville just as much as you can.

Would you say that somebody who lives on Staten Island or on the far northwest side of Chicago lives in the suburbs just because their area has lower density than the inner neighborhoods?

Well, not that it really matters, I just dont see alot of Louisville as the city of Louisville just yet. What you are saying is definately true though. Its funny (not you guys, I dont know) how alot of people were so quick to write off Louisville when its population fell to 256k or whatever, now everyone is tall and proud of saying it.

Gych, you are using the word "surburban" to refer to the character of a place. The way I tend to use the word is to refer to areas located outside of Louisville (like Oldham or Shelby counties, for example). These means that I may live in a subdivision in Hurstbourne, but I can claim Louisville just as much as you can.

Would you say that somebody who lives on Staten Island or on the far northwest side of Chicago lives in the suburbs just because their area has lower density than the inner neighborhoods?


No, we'll at least that is my partial answer. My point is you dont "really" live in Louisville. You live in a newish suburb of Louisville (1970s or whatever). Just bc it is not that "far" and Louisville isnt a giant city doesnt mean you dont live in a suburb. I am really trying to change the mentality in this area.

Nor does the fact that Louisville merged mean you live in a city atmosphere either. And in fact, someone from Chicago would consider most of what we call "louisville" to be suburban. That is, except MOST areas inside the Watterson loop. The Chicago native would even say well, this area inside the Watterson is CITY--BUT--its just a little different. City means highrises and lowrises, apartments, condos, and houses mixed together, dense neighborhoods, pedestrian friendly streets that are NOT on or near Cul de sacs, etc. It means good transit options on most any street in the vicinity, even if it is only a bus or average cab service. It means no strip malls, or at least shopping that looks somewhat architectural and urban.

But basically, your Chicago analagy is bad. Louisville and Chicago are apples and oranges. And I also think that some "suburbs" of Chicago are pretty damn urban. Evanston and Oak Park are good examples, and you can even get to the Loop in 10 minutes from Oak Park with no traffic.

But it is not just Louisville that has "lost" much of its city (although IMO Louisville has some of the best hoods for urban living in Crescent Hill, Highlands/Germantown, Old Louisville, and increasingly, downtown.) Lets take Louisville, Indy, Nashville, and Cincy--four "competitor" cities. The fact is, when you look at these cities, there is very little "city" left. Really any city with a metro under 3 million is like this. I cant think of hardly any that may look today much as they did 100 years ago. Many large, old neighborhoods with good transit have been vacated. Some hoods that are left are small and good, but--to someone from the urban NE or Chicago, it is small beans.

That being said, I dont have a problem with you "claiming" Louisville. Hell, its written on your address. But you, as an urban minded person, should know you live in strip mall central surrounded by minivans and cul de sac subdivisions--NOT THE CITY--although you technically do bc of merger and bc Louisvillians have never distinguished city from suburb.

I mean, there are about 3 different definitions for "east end," which is a term I freaking hate. Old timers would say it means the area around Cherokee Park, bc that was its original designation. Others would say St. Matthews/Hurstbourne, bc there you think of shopping, etc. Still others would say the "east end" is places like Prospect or LaGrange in Oldham co!!

Me, I say that the "heart of St. Mathwes (dense, urban, transit, walkable)" is the east side of the city. Anything farther is an eastern suburb EVEN if it is not THAT far from downtown.

Well, whether you admit it or not, Fern Creek is a SUBURB. True, now it is officially part of Louisville and it really isnt that far from downtown by big city standards (10-12 miles as the crow flies). And for some reason, Louisvillians for decades have not realized the distinction btwn city and suburb (do regular Louisvillians even use the word suburb? Even people living in surrounding counties would say they live in Oldham County rather than saying, Crestwood, KY, a suburb of Louisville)

BUT, the point is that Fern Creek/Glenmary/MT Wahsington etc are not CITY. In fact, there is nothing "city" about anything outside 264/Watterson X way. In fact there are a few areas right inside 264 that I consider suburban--Mall St. Matthews is one area. Once again, just because "you can get downtown in 15 minutes" doesnt mean you live in the city. It just means you live in a suburb (albeit perhaps an inner ring suburb) of a mid-sized city that has little traffic outside of 745-845 am and 430-530 pm!!!

Me though? I live in the city. Downtown to be exact :)

I think you missed my point. I might not live in downtown, but I am all over the city, which whether you like it or not, encompasses all of it's communities. I go to school downtown and spend my time and money there. So because I don't live in downtown, I'm not actually IN Louisville?
I never said I lived the urban life, I, and everyone else in the city(all of Louisville, lets drive that one home) would say Fern Creek is a suburb. We dont have any strange mentality that fern creek is downtown.

Oh, well, I guess we are totally missing each others points. By the way, welcome to the forums, eweezer. Where do you go to school downtown?

And my point still stands. You do not LIVE in the city, you live in suburban Fern Creek. I think we both agree there. Sure, you are a part of the city, and to go back to the apples and oranges Chicago thing, I guess you are more a "part of the city" than someone living in Aurora, IL, some 30 miles outside the city--but that is just bc Louisville is smaller.

I guess it just kind of concerns me that on a skyscraper website, out of Louisville forumers, I am the only one who lives in the ACTUAL city. By city I mean West Louisville to the river, Downtown, south all the way to Beechmont and Iroquois, and east through Crescent Hill and the 'heart' of St. Matthews. Like I said, roughly inside 264 is the city. Hell who am I kidding, I should just make it simple--I am the only one on here who lives in the OLD CITY LIMITS, what was the actual city before merger.

And to think Schristopher and others tried to accuse me of not liking diversity, when I am the only Louisville forumer that lives in a diverse neighborhood (social and racial). I appreciate the diversity I really do. And I am not bagging on you guys who live in burbs. Fern Creek is really nice, and I cant believe the homes going up there, even though the fringe of development is miles past Fern Creek. I am thinking some of the chains you see in Middletown and some of the NE burbs will start going in Fern Creek within 10 years--that is more of a guarntee than what will happen downtown, the Highlands or anywhere else in the city.

I was just playing with you about the transvestite thing, I am sorry if I said anything off color about you before, I cant really come to any conclusions about you having never met.

That is cool that you moved downtown, what do you think of it. I have been teasing the idea of moving to a loft down there sometime, but now I work so far out it just wouldnt be that economical. As for Fern Creek, I thought they already had the same things that Middletown had. Actually I was just out there (Middletown) at some furniture store bankruptcy and again I saw that Middletown Station, mostly abandoned shopping center, I decided to go in and aside from the way it was run down, it and the property looked like it could be something really cool, and it was kinda going to waste.

An interesting article regarding Middletown Station from 2000 :
http://www.lanereport.com/lanereport/departments/real_estate/realestate1100.html

I forgot to say, as for really suburban suburbs, I would look for Mt. Washington to be our solution to a Carmel or Mason (maybe with a better core) somewhere in the near future, along with Shelbyville. I know of alot of plans for simple retail out there and houses are growing out of the ground. On a smaller scale shepherdsville seems to be growing now too, with the middle income vynil village thing going on. In the next ten years I would look for Louisville to be more blobby, all I can say is I pity the people who rely on the souther part of bardstown road. 65 shouldnt be that bad because for some reason it is 6 lanes all the way to Elizabethtown. (Which around 7 am I have actually seen backed up for some reason)

Well I just moved from J-town to the Harbors in Jeffersonville, and I work downtown and I consider myself a downtown resident, and if someone tries to tell me that I live in "suburban" southern Indiana I will say you are dead wrong, I work at humana on main and I can walk to work. I just chose to live in the Harbors because I love the view. I would say 85% of the residents over here are Louisvillians. I will say that I absolutely love living here. I can walk to restaraunts on both sides of the river. I would consider my living situation to be urban because it sure is far from suburban. My condo compared to my neighborhood in Stoney Brook is apples and oranges. I lived 3 minutes drive wise to hurstbourn ln with all the strip malls and big box stores. I definitly love living here as opposed to out there because of the urban feel i get here. I rarely have to get in my car do to anything besides going to a movie or getting some groceries but if I do get in my car its to go downtown or to the highlands and thats nothing but a 5 minute trip for me in all directions. I'm rarely ever in traffic, I haven't spent a large amount of time in traffic for 8 months now(Considering the amount of traffic we receive here). I never have to leave my condo for thunder, which is awesome to watch from here. Gych how is your view of thunder from you place downtown? If you watch the festivities?

^My grandfather lives in the Harbors and the thunder view is really spectacular, I also like the riverfront over there, there is always a ton going on during thunder and of course there is the skyline as a backdrop.

I forgot to say, as for really suburban suburbs, I would look for Mt. Washington to be our solution to a Carmel or Mason (maybe with a better core) somewhere in the near future, along with Shelbyville. I know of alot of plans for simple retail out there and houses are growing out of the ground. On a smaller scale shepherdsville seems to be growing now too, with the middle income vynil village thing going on. In the next ten years I would look for Louisville to be more blobby, all I can say is I pity the people who rely on the souther part of bardstown road. 65 shouldnt be that bad because for some reason it is 6 lanes all the way to Elizabethtown. (Which around 7 am I have actually seen backed up for some reason)

Your are right Schris but I think the landscape in Mt Washington is totally different from Carmel, I mean Mt. Washington will get some classic suburban amenties but wouldn't you agree that it is a little to redneckish to be considered on a playing field like carmel. I know you are looking in the future, but I was just looking at the scenery with the small mountains and things like that and it just some so hick out there. I couldn't see Mt. Washington getting hotels like they have in carmel. I really couldn't see any corporate people moving out there to build headquarters. Maybe its just me but I was out there visiting a friend and man its looks like a different world for me, and again its not a knock on anybody who lives in Mt Washington, because I couldn't believe how much it had grown since the last time i was out there like 3 yrs ago. Like you said I mean the commute will continue to get longer for those folks who are traveling from as far as E-town. Basically if you travel Preston, Bardstown, or I-65 its only going to get worse. As I read somewhere where they are building some huge subdivision in Mt. Washington like the second biggest one in the louisville region in the last 10 years. Only thing we need downtown is a good grocery store, I hate driving out to Clarksville just to get some groceries. They need one on main or market somewhere downtown. Wonder how long it will be before all of bullit county becomes sucked into Louisville.

^My grandfather lives in the Harbors and the thunder view is really spectacular, I also like the riverfront over there, there is always a ton going on during thunder and of course there is the skyline as a backdrop.

Exactly it really is nice over here, but its easy to get tired of buckheads and kingfish.lol But the views are definitly breathe taking, if I was remotely close to being a good photographer I would take some pictures, but my skills suck.

Well I just moved from J-town to the Harbors in Jeffersonville, and I work downtown and I consider myself a downtown resident, and if someone tries to tell me that I live in "suburban" southern Indiana I will say you are dead wrong, I work at humana on main and I can walk to work. I just chose to live in the Harbors because I love the view. I would say 85% of the residents over here are Louisvillians. I will say that I absolutely love living here. I can walk to restaraunts on both sides of the river. I would consider my living situation to be urban because it sure is far from suburban. My condo compared to my neighborhood in Stoney Brook is apples and oranges. I lived 3 minutes drive wise to hurstbourn ln with all the strip malls and big box stores. I definitly love living here as opposed to out there because of the urban feel i get here. I rarely have to get in my car do to anything besides going to a movie or getting some groceries but if I do get in my car its to go downtown or to the highlands and thats nothing but a 5 minute trip for me in all directions. I'm rarely ever in traffic, I haven't spent a large amount of time in traffic for 8 months now(Considering the amount of traffic we receive here). I never have to leave my condo for thunder, which is awesome to watch from here. Gych how is your view of thunder from you place downtown? If you watch the festivities?

I should have mentioned that I consider that downtown too. Hell, if that river was smaller that would just be the other side of downtown. And basically it is starting to turn that way. And something about downtown Jeffersonville is just sooo nice. Its that feeling of a small town, but then you are in a big city. Theres even a great little bar on the river with cheap ass drinks. It almost seems paradoxical, but you can actually walk to cafes and eats in Jeff.

Sadly, most Louisvillians dont realize that S. Indiana is the "north end" of the city, and these people have some stunning views and short ass commutes. In fact, if we hadnt built 4th street, they were positioned to rob us of nightlife downtown just like Newport, KY sucked the life out of downtown Cincy. I was up there for a Reds game and man that place clears out quick and is a ghost town by 11.

Ironically, some areas of S. Indiana are borderline "inner city" with areas near downtown new albany and eastern blvd in Clarksville leading the way. One thing you will notice though, drive, or better yet-walk, up Eastern Blv. You will count at least a dozen Hispanic businesses and there are even more tucked all around Green Tree Mall and on towards Blackiston in New Albany. But than you have booming suburbs and stunning homes going up on river bluffs outside I-265 in Indiana. A lot of Mexicans living off Green Tree Blvd and behind River Falls Mall.

The eastern bridge will only spur more development over there as the Indiana stigma slowly dies, and their retail options are getting very close to eastern Louisville once Veterans is complete. They even have the craptastic chains Cheddar's and Famous Dave's and more are moving in--like a mini Hurstbourne but actually nicer looking.

Your are right Schris but I think the landscape in Mt Washington is totally different from Carmel, I mean Mt. Washington will get some classic suburban amenties but wouldn't you agree that it is a little to redneckish to be considered on a playing field like carmel. I know you are looking in the future, but I was just looking at the scenery with the small mountains and things like that and it just some so hick out there. I couldn't see Mt. Washington getting hotels like they have in carmel. I really couldn't see any corporate people moving out there to build headquarters. Maybe its just me but I was out there visiting a friend and man its looks like a different world for me, and again its not a knock on anybody who lives in Mt Washington, because I couldn't believe how much it had grown since the last time i was out there like 3 yrs ago. Like you said I mean the commute will continue to get longer for those folks who are traveling from as far as E-town. Basically if you travel Preston, Bardstown, or I-65 its only going to get worse. As I read somewhere where they are building some huge subdivision in Mt. Washington like the second biggest one in the louisville region in the last 10 years. Only thing we need downtown is a good grocery store, I hate driving out to Clarksville just to get some groceries. They need one on main or market somewhere downtown. Wonder how long it will be before all of bullit county becomes sucked into Louisville.

You have your demographics all wrong Schris. We have an area JUST like Carmel, only a hell of a lot smaller--Oldham Co. I am talking Crestwood, Prospect, Buckner, through LaGrange. At this point, it is just sprawled out subdivisions with little corporate prescence. Basically, LaGrange is the one who is going to become our exurban corporate center, and the money is already out there its just the population is not high enough yet. Also, the school system is outstanding, the golf courses are good, and that is what these suburban corporate families look for when relocating.

But LaGrange is going to change that with a 1200 acre corporate campus and mixed used community. They will announce the anchor tenant soon.This, along with the completion of 265 and Norton Commons in 20 years will make that area a hot retail and corporate headquarters site if they make it classy. and dont pull a SpringHurst. If the develop it like Springhurst, it will turn into it.

In the meantime, Organized Living is a large space being vacated in the Summit, I wonder who they will pull in there?

I agree that it has its redneckish past to tackle, but most of Bullitt county is becoming more and more balanced as these huge houses and generic shopping options are placed. My dad lives in Mason, which used to be pretty hillbilly in my eyes and I watched it grow before my eyes into one of Cincinnati's nicer suburbs. I think the terrain will only make it nicer.

I think the next condo proposal for downtown will include a grocery. I could see one easily in a vacant storefront on west main. Viridian in Nashville is getting a grocery and residentially I would say they are pretty far behind in relation to Louisville's core population base.

I want to see a movie theater before southern indiana steals that. I also got to see Northern Kentucky slowly suck the life out of Cincinnati, and the two state thing here scares me that the same thing will happen, but hopefully with our partnerships and leaderships it wont. I am just crossing my fingers and hoping they dont mess up with 4th street being a draw all the way to broadway and that they beef it up with something substantial. By the way I know it [4th street live] was killing the highlands for a while and there was a period last year where there were a good few vacancies on Bardstown and less patrons, which was unheard of. I have been going through there alot and it seems to have adjusted and bounced back nicely. Anyone know if everything is pretty much back to normal with both of them living in balance.

I am just going off of what is materializing. I think Crestwood is way above Carmel, and of course there really isnt substantial retail there either. I consider Carmel to be even moreso like J-town. I cant think of a synonym to Crestwood or many Oldham County areas. Maybe it is just something I am hoping. I hate that Louisville is so lopsided to the east. I often forget about Lagrange though, I just dont go there that often, I agree with you on that though. I wish we would build up more with our suburban developments, rather than out like on blankenbaker, we have so much new office space but it is very spread, not really pretty to look at most of the time.

I have been thinking about the organized living vacancy too, I actually with it was smaller to fit my home favorites like Restoration Hardware, someone told me the Summit had a waiting list, I dont know if its true or not. Either way I doubt it will sit and rot.

Sorry for the posting madness!

Also another reason I think we will suddenly see a suburban county boom and a demographic change is that alot of transplants or even residents dont want to live in the city under a larger city's government and now that the county is all city I think we will see something similar to what is happening with Williamson/Nashville and Hamilton/Indianapolis.

^Why would anybody mind the fact that the city includes the entire county?

Alot of people dont like the governments of larger cities, which in turn is why someone in a midsized may choose to live in an independant suburb in the first place. Someone in say the far reaches of Jefferson County who never go downtown or really care what happens to much of the city, would probably be kinda sore that their tax dollars are going to fund an arena downtown. Etc. Etc. There are many different situations that would deter a suburban minded individual to choose a smaller city with the larger city close by.

^I, for one, love the merger because now I am a part of something much greater than simply the city of Hurstbourne.

I wouldn't really be so quick to abhor SChris' idea of Mt. Washington. There's a lot going on out there that's changing Mt. Washington into a really attractive place. There are several new office parks under construction (one on Old Bardstown Rd. and another on Bardstown Rd. at Hwy. 44) as well as many new subdivisions with houses priced at $250,000 or more (Twelve Oaks, Wildwood, Northfield, Cherry Hill, Bleemel Estates, Greenbriar Woods, Kingswood, Equinox, Cedar Ridge Estates, Waterford Ridge, etc). Sure there might still be a couple of rednecks living in some cheap apartments near Mt. Washington but they're becoming/have become outnumbered by soccor moms and such.

Oh, well, I guess we are totally missing each others points. By the way, welcome to the forums, eweezer. Where do you go to school downtown?

I am still in highschool at Dupont Manual, wonderful school. I'm in the Youth Performing Arts School theatre program. Thanks for the welcome!

And to think Schristopher and others tried to accuse me of not liking diversity, when I am the only Louisville forumer that lives in a diverse neighborhood (social and racial). I appreciate the diversity I really do. And I am not bagging on you guys who live in burbs. Fern Creek is really nice, and I cant believe the homes going up there, even though the fringe of development is miles past Fern Creek. I am thinking some of the chains you see in Middletown and some of the NE burbs will start going in Fern Creek within 10 years--that is more of a guarntee than what will happen downtown, the Highlands or anywhere else in the city.

Hah, I don't live out here by choice, I am moving to downtown as soon as I can. Please, hah Fern Creek is ok, but I wish it would stop growing so much for Glen Mary. It used to be a very tightly knit community with character, back when Fern Creek Highschool was a very important part of the area. There are still some nice locally owned businesses that I love like the Fern Creek Barber shop(they have a FANTASTIC mural in their shop of downtown and other scenes of Kentucky and Louisville icons). I just wish it were more like that all along the Fern Creek stretch of bardstown road. But alas, character is not "In" with the rich family crowd it seems.

lol Btw, my neighborhood is quite diverse. I have come to believe there is a family of vampires living behind me...

omg there's nothing wrong with my family, we just have really long canines... ;-)

I was talking to my uncle a while ago about cities, He lives in Baltimore and mentioned that the suburbs of Baltimore and Washington DC had began to fuse together, that got me thinking. Since Louisville is growing more or less eastward toward Lexington and Frankfort,which are both only two maybe three counties away, anyone think that one day in the relatively near future we will be talking about the Louisville-Frankfort-Lexington metro area? Any thoughts would anybody want that to happen? Personally I can see this happening within 50 to 60 years if Lexington were to grow to the west toward Louisville (which I don't if it is or not). It would really create an interesting atmosphere with the U of L/ UK rivalry.

As far as living in the suburbs or city, I gotta say I live on the edge. I live in Shively which I consider suburban, but on my way to school (uofl), within 5 minutes I am in the "city".

I agree that it has its redneckish past to tackle, but most of Bullitt county is becoming more and more balanced as these huge houses and generic shopping options are placed. My dad lives in Mason, which used to be pretty hillbilly in my eyes and I watched it grow before my eyes into one of Cincinnati's nicer suburbs. I think the terrain will only make it nicer.

I think the next condo proposal for downtown will include a grocery. I could see one easily in a vacant storefront on west main. Viridian in Nashville is getting a grocery and residentially I would say they are pretty far behind in relation to Louisville's core population base.

I want to see a movie theater before southern indiana steals that. I also got to see Northern Kentucky slowly suck the life out of Cincinnati, and the two state thing here scares me that the same thing will happen, but hopefully with our partnerships and leaderships it wont. I am just crossing my fingers and hoping they dont mess up with 4th street being a draw all the way to broadway and that they beef it up with something substantial. By the way I know it [4th street live] was killing the highlands for a while and there was a period last year where there were a good few vacancies on Bardstown and less patrons, which was unheard of. I have been going through there alot and it seems to have adjusted and bounced back nicely. Anyone know if everything is pretty much back to normal with both of them living in balance.

I wasn't necessarily disagreeing with you that Mt.Washington couldn't be another potential carmel. The only thing Carmel has on Mt.Washington is that carmel has alot of corporate influence, and alot of big office park buildings. I have to go up to carmel twice of month for my job. They have the Embassy suites and big box hotels that you would normally see in those huge outer ring suburbs especially around DC and Baltimore. Yes Crestwood is carmel without all that, the only reason I even remotely questioned Mt. Washington was because I was driving through and I"m seeing these huge 500,000 dollar homes and then low and behold I see a damn trailor.LOL Thats what made me thing about the carmel comparison, but yes in many ways I can easily see it becoming another carmel. I hope the residents in Mt. Washington rather they are transplants or the people who have been there for years do not get the same attitudes as the people in carmel and the neighbor Noblesville have. They are pretty snobby up there.

I should have mentioned that I consider that downtown too. Hell, if that river was smaller that would just be the other side of downtown. And basically it is starting to turn that way. And something about downtown Jeffersonville is just sooo nice. Its that feeling of a small town, but then you are in a big city. Theres even a great little bar on the river with cheap ass drinks. It almost seems paradoxical, but you can actually walk to cafes and eats in Jeff.

Sadly, most Louisvillians dont realize that S. Indiana is the "north end" of the city, and these people have some stunning views and short ass commutes. In fact, if we hadnt built 4th street, they were positioned to rob us of nightlife downtown just like Newport, KY sucked the life out of downtown Cincy. I was up there for a Reds game and man that place clears out quick and is a ghost town by 11.

Ironically, some areas of S. Indiana are borderline "inner city" with areas near downtown new albany and eastern blvd in Clarksville leading the way. One thing you will notice though, drive, or better yet-walk, up Eastern Blv. You will count at least a dozen Hispanic businesses and there are even more tucked all around Green Tree Mall and on towards Blackiston in New Albany. But than you have booming suburbs and stunning homes going up on river bluffs outside I-265 in Indiana. A lot of Mexicans living off Green Tree Blvd and behind River Falls Mall.

The eastern bridge will only spur more development over there as the Indiana stigma slowly dies, and their retail options are getting very close to eastern Louisville once Veterans is complete. They even have the craptastic chains Cheddar's and Famous Dave's and more are moving in--like a mini Hurstbourne but actually nicer looking.

I was just about to touch on that very subject Gych clarksville almost seems like little havana, man its alot of Mexican business over there. Like you said just about every apartment complex on Eastern Blvd and Greentree Blvd is full of hispanics. Which in turn is forcing the soccer moms out to Sellersburg and Charlestown and other hick town out there.lol

When they build the east end bridge I think you will see another town start up because the area between Jeffersonville and Charlestown is booming those two towns will probably connect within the next 5 yrs. You are right about some areas being borderline "innercity" its alot of places in Jeff and New Albany that feel very urban especially around the downtowns. There are rumors floating around here at the harbors about the city building more restaraunts because they want a bar area along the river. I can easily see that possible because they are supposed to be building another condo tower down the street but its on hold right now. With more people living on the river they are going to want entertainment options. I hope they don't do too much over here because I want downtown to thrive and be the ideal entertainment complex.

omg there's nothing wrong with my family, we just have really long canines... ;-)
Then explain your seven pasty-skinned children who enjoy climbing trees with no shirts on. And they hafta do it in the backyard where I have a huge window showcasing the strange activity that goes on in their backyard... It works the same way around for them is the problem. My living room is like watching the realworld. o_0

As for a Louisville Lexington Frankfurt share of suburbs, there was a study done that expects Louisville and Lexington to share the same suburbs within about 50 years. Frankfurt wasn't included, it isn't growing at near the rate of Louisville or Lexington. But I guess I can see Louisville and Lexington bumping into one another, and if Lexington got a lot bigger, they could run a highspeed train between the two downtowns, through the burbs! Ok, ok, I know. But in 50 years, who knows?

If you want all of that, you could just move to Dallas. It would save you alot of waiting.

I wouldn't count on Louisville and Lexington growing together anytime soon. Thankfully, Lexington has some of the most rabid preservationists in the country that do everything they can to 'stand in the way of progress'. Cincy and Louisville have a better chance of growing together first. Even at this point, Carroll and Trimble counties (which are very small) are all that separate the two cities now. The I-71 corridor will continue to grow rapidly over the coming years. That being said, I still doubt the metros would be combined like the Dayton/Cincy plan.

^^^I would have to agree....Louisvlle and Lexington will never really "touch"...Lexington has learned from its two bigger siblings (Cincy/Lou) on what it doesn't want to become....too keep it's identity & uniqueness. Smart growth is Lexington's plan, of course we all know that this doesn't aways happen, but I believe that no other city in the US is trying as hard.
As for Frankfort, she is closer to Lexington than she is Louisville. If she was to "touch" one, it would more than likely be Lex.
One city that could "touch" Lexington is Richmond....Richmond is part of Lex metro but it is growing so fast that the burbs could hit Lex. Well it would hit the Kentucky River which separates Lex/Fayette Co and Richmond/Madison Co.

If you want all of that, you could just move to Dallas. It would save you alot of waiting.

I didn't say I wanted a jungle of sprawl, I just think a train from Lou to Lex would be neat on acount of how much I go down to UK.

wouldn't count on Louisville and Lexington growing together anytime soon.
50 years is soon? Who are you, Bilbo Baggins?
By no means would it be a good or desired thing though, don't think I want an endless trail of krogers from Lou to Lex.

Lexington has learned from its two bigger siblings (Cincy/Lou) on what it doesn't want to become....too keep it's identity & uniqueness.

Where has Louisville lost uniqueness? If I'm not mistaken, Lexington has subdivisions and Wal-marts too. And just as Lexington has old buildings, so does Louisville. Plenty of them. Louisville is only missing character in the burbs, but then, what burbs DO have character? Course, then, define character.

Ironically the Portland has some of the strictest land use policies in the nation, yet it also is one of the most sprawling metros in the country. That being said I wouldn't say that Louisville and Lexington blending together is totally out of the question. I am with most of you in hoping that it doesn't happen, at least for a long while. That would swallow Kentucky's bluegrass region whole, and not only take away both the cities uniqueness but also take away what Kentucky is known for. What I think is more possible probably in the near future is the Metro Areas of Lexington and Louisville eventually being side by side, not the suburbs.

Lexington has a awesome inner core unspoiled by the expressways and whatnot, but most of what is known as Lexington is a ring of culdesacs and big boxes unfortunately.

And yeah sorry the way you were talking about a Kentucky mega metro it sounded like that is what you wanted so was just commenting on how I could save you the trouble of dreaming till you were in your hundreds.

And all of you speak as though Louisville is like atlanta with an endless span of powerlines and vynil ranches. Most of the Louisville suburbs have character, even J-town.

Ironically the Portland has some of the strictest land use policies in the nation, yet it also is one of the most sprawling metros in the country. That being said I wouldn't say that Louisville and Lexington blending together is totally out of the question. I am with most of you in hoping that it doesn't happen, at least for a long while. That would swallow Kentucky's bluegrass region whole, and not only take away both the cities uniqueness but also take away what Kentucky is known for. What I think is more possible probably in the near future is the Metro Areas of Lexington and Louisville eventually being side by side, not the suburbs.

God I hope you are wrong. Kentucky is a gourgeous state, one of the most beautiful that I have seen, and I have been alot of places. The way Louisville grows and Lexingtons whopping growth of what 3k in 5 years I doubt we are going to see any of this in forever, we might as well focus on what is actually going on. this is the only development thread in the history of SSC that lingers off into these fantasy tangents I swear, and it is not like we are boring with nothing going on!!

Dude, what if Owensboro and PRP combined!!??

[Where has Louisville lost uniqueness? If I'm not mistaken, Lexington has subdivisions and Wal-marts too. And just as Lexington has old buildings, so does Louisville. Plenty of them. Louisville is only missing character in the burbs, but then, what burbs DO have character? Course, then, define character.[/QUOTE]

Thats a very good point I was actually getting ready to address, neither Louisville nor Cincy have lost their uniqueness. Louisville has done a really good job in preserving what makes it unique. If you really think about it, Lexington's character is on a "most endangered" lists. ( It's horse farms).

Speaking of character imo suburbs while not having too much architectual character, what so ever, do have character in terms of culture. Think about it what do you think of when you think of PRP...rednecks (I can say that because I live there), J-town...family friendly, Prospect...Louisville's Beverly Hills. Sure they all have chains and if one has seen one they have seen all suburbs, but they do have a bit of character.

"Dude, what if Owensboro and PRP combined!!??"

Ha, Kentucky would have some very dense and unique trailer parks.

"Dude, what if Owensboro and PRP combined!!??"

Ha, Kentucky would have some very dense and unique trailer parks.

shh someone might hear LOL *high five*

I always thought all the Beverly Hillsish looking houses were in the depths of Cherokee Park adjacent. Prospect is the .... Orange County ... hah

Thats a very good point I was actually getting ready to address, neither Louisville nor Cincy have lost their uniqueness. Louisville has done a really good job in preserving what makes it unique. If you really think about it, Lexington's character is on a "most endangered" lists. ( It's horse farms).

Speaking of character imo suburbs while not having too much architectual character, what so ever, do have character in terms of culture. Think about it what do you think of when you think of PRP...rednecks (I can say that because I live there), J-town...family friendly, Prospect...Louisville's Beverly Hills. Sure they all have chains and if one has seen one they have seen all suburbs, but they do have a bit of character.

I agree, I really love Lexington's horse farms and they are in the way of some very persistant suburban developers.
Yes, old J-town is actually pretty nice and have a few projects underway around there. I have also heard plans of fixing up more of the older buildings and expanding with small restaurants shops and cafes. They aren't talking big bucks though, just trying to compete with nearby hurstbourne ln.
However, my bus goes to the J-town compound and those kids... ugh... Under the family friendly image is a less family friendly generation coming out. Not all of them, but some of those kids are quite hopeless. It's very drastic between Fern Creek and J-town, with youth attitude, but more importantly, two blocks behind me, those lucky bastards have attractive street lamps, and SIDEWALKS! :(

Yes Lou/Cincy have their uniqueness and charm...that is why I love those two cities, I guess the best way to have said this was.....Lexington's green space. Unlike the other 2 cities, Lexington is world famous for green horse farms, that is what makes it so unique...if that is gone, we just become like every one else...yes we have all the same stuff but we are still green, very green compared to the other 2 major cities. Lexington is known as the "Horse Capital of the World", this title would be gone if growth is not control. You can't have that title 50-100 years from now if you don't have the endangered horse farms and green space around this city. I do think you were right Card, the Bluessgrass region has been place on an "endangered list". When folks think about KY, Louisville isn't the first place they think of....and not really "Lexington" but the Bluegrass region and horses.

Louisville is growing northeastward towards Cincinnati, Louisville and La Grange are probably already damn near connected. Anyways Louisvillle is growing to the northeast and to the south towards E-town. Frankfort would put a brick wall up if Louisville got that far, politics would definitly play a vital role in that. Considering how we are treated by the government officials in Frankfort but that is for another discussion. Anyways we are getting way too sidetracked. Is there any news on Development?

Well...on the topic of greenspace, here's some very good news about Louisville's.

Leftover cash from Congress to help pay for metro parks
McConnell uses spare funds for City of Parks initiative

Metro Mayor Jerry Abramson, from left, U.S. Senator Mitch McConnell and David Jones yesterday announced an infusion of $38 million into metro park construction. The new parks will create a 100-mile "ring of green" around the city. Three parks will spring up along a 27-mile stretch of Floyds Fork. (By Chris Hall, Special to The Courier-Journal)

By Chris Poynter
cpoynter@courier-journal.com
The Courier-Journal

Mitch McConnell was on the U.S. Senate floor Wednesday afternoon when the news came. After Senate and House leaders added up the numbers on the massive $286.4 billion transportation bill, $60 million was left over.

McConnell, Kentucky's senior senator and the majority whip, could do with it as he wished.

"My jaw dropped," McConnell, a Republican, said yesterday, after announcing that $38 million of that would be set aside for Louisville's plan to create a park system in the rapidly developing suburbs.

Metro Mayor Jerry Abramson and Humana co-founder David Jones joined McConnell in announcing that the city now has enough money to build the new park network.

The infusion of cash means that the City of Parks initiative will be built in five to seven years, as opposed to 15, as originally planned, Jones said.

Jones has raised $13 million for the project, and with yesterday's announcement the total committed now stands at $51 million, with a pledge from Jones to raise $7 million more.

"I'm still in a state of shock," Jones said during a news conference yesterday morning at Thurman Hutchins Park, off River Road.

The City of Parks plan, announced in February by Abramson, will build three parks along a 27-mile stretch of Floyds Fork, from Shelbyville Road to McNeely Lake Park, similar to 409-acre Cherokee Park. Bike and pedestrian paths will eventually link the parks to form a 100-mile "ring of green" around Louisville.

The transportation bill, which Congress passed Friday, funds roads, bridges and public transportation projects around the country for the next six years. Although President Bush had threatened to veto the measure, saying it was too costly, McConnell said yesterday that Bush and congressional leaders reached an agreement and the president will sign the bill.

Asked if putting the $38 million into the park project was an appropriate use of tax dollars that are supposed to be set aside for transportation projects, McConnell said his staff researched the topic and concluded that it was. The Transportation Equity Act for the 21st Century, as the bill is called, has money set aside for park improvements, such as bike trails and paths.

McConnell said he wanted to use the money for the City of Parks initiative because he wants to see the network built and opened before he dies.

Abramson, who along with Jones visited McConnell earlier this year to ask him to help obtain money for the project, praised the senator for his commitment.

"Our dreams are coming true far, far quicker than we ever expected," Abramson said.

Cameron Reid, 10, and his brother, Christian, 6, -- wearing bike helmets -- walked up to McConnell yesterday after the news conference to shake his hand. Afterward, the two proclaimed the City of Parks initiative "great."

They understand the importance of parks, they said. The brothers live across from Cherokee Park and use it constantly for biking, playing and hiking.

Another interesting article I found on Wave3's website.



By Eric Flack

(LOUISVILLE) -- There is a proposal now on the table to create bicycle lanes on two of Louisville's major downtown streets. Eventually, city planners want to add bike lanes city wide. And there is mixed reaction from residents. WAVE 3 Investigator Eric Flack has more.

When Larry Wallace rides his bike in the city, he keeps his feet on the pedals, and his eyes on the other guy.

"You get pretty efficient at avoiding the traffic," Wallace said.

Too often in Louisville, the two worlds collide, and it's the cyclists that lose. A number of fatal accidents led city planners try and revamp traffic routes to accommodate the city's growing cycling community.

They unveiled their vision: bike lanes on streets throughout the city Tuesday night.

The plan is much like what Chicago did. The lanes would be added as the city re-paves roads. Sections of Main Street and Market Street would be first, with streets in other sections of town to follow.

"This could be a center for the hub for all those neighborhoods to have easy access," Mayor Jerry Abramson said.

The bike lane would be five feet wide, wedged between the parking and traffic lanes. Cyclist David Morse thinks car doors swinging open will be a problem, and asked planners for more room.

"Abolish parking on the right hand side of the street, and create angled parking on the left hand side of the street," Morse suggested.

But business owners said: losing parking, would mean losing money.

"The Market Street galleries and restaurants are absolutely dependent on street parking," said business owner Paul Paletti.

Planners promised to protect all the parking spots, at least along the downtown corridor. Future bike lanes are going to be planned case by case, as they continue to try and keep two wheels safe from four.

The plan to put bike lanes in on Main and Market could be ratified in a couple weeks. They want to make sure there's no major opposition from people in the area, which was one of the reasons for Tuesday

starting a new tanget, here is a proposal I have to dramitically alter the state of this city--and its more feasible and probably cheaper than a plan already in place. Here is a letter I sent to the Waterfront Dev Corp:


Dear Sir or Madame,

I am writing to express my concerns about the effect that a new downtown bridge and reworked junction will have on Waterfront Park. More specifically, I am concerned about the health of downtown, the park, and the historic neighborhoods that surround the junction that are currently seeing a residential renaissance. Building a new downtown bridge will be the biggest mistake the city has made in building freeways since I-64 was built, cutting off the city's "circulation" and connection with its riverfront--the very riverfront upon which the city was founded. A new downtown bridge and interchange, along with its construction, will be a huge eysore that will absolutely kill our waterfront. Therfore, I propose building only ONE bridge, in the "East End."

To solve the problem, I propose first constructing the east end bridge as planned. This road could be signed as a dual interstate marked 64/265 and "through" 64 traffic could use this route to essentially bypass the city. If one examies a map, one will see that this route is barely much longer distance wise. I-64 travels straight through Louisville from KY I-265 to IN I-265 for approximately 22 miles. In fact, Indiana 265 is currently 10 miles long while the Kentucky portion from the I-64/I-265 interchange to US 42 is 11.5 miles. Thus, since the east end bridge and its connector should only add a few miles to the route, this becomes the only distance difference between the current I-64 and my proposed route (depending on the length of the east end bridge and its KY and IN approaches, which should only add 6-8 miles)! Indianapolis has a dual signed route marked 465/74 that Louisville could use as a model. Through traffic coming from Cincinnati on I-74 headed towards Illinois never passes through downtown Indianapolis.

The current I-64 could be renamed, perhaps even as "Waterfront Parkway"! The current 64 would serve commuters in the eastern suburbs coming downtown for work or activities, just as it does today, with the exception that there would be no through traffic. It could terminate with a large connector near the current story avenue interchange that would essentially "empty" commuters into downtown. They could reenter here, too, to return to their suburbs. Likewise, commuters from West Louisville and IN suburbs could use "Waterfront Parkway" to commute downtown where it would empty into a large connector at Roy Wilkins or at a new interchage in Portland, perhaps giving life to a dying neighborhood and acres of vacant warehouses.

At this point, the section of 64 from 9th street to story avenue would be obsolete, and could be torn down cheaply. The city would finally be reconnected with the water that spawned it! New loft and residential development would boom as it has already begun to, and Louisville would be looked to as a national urbanist leader.

My plan is undoubtedly cheaper than the current plan, as it only requires ONE bridge. Money saved could be used to widen the 64/265 route to a divided, 6 lane freeway similar to outer beltways in the region or like the Shawnee Expressway here. Congestion downtown would not be bad since people would only get off 65 to get onto 71, and this junction could even be reworked slightly, although it should take up no further land or buildings than it currently does.

I should note that ideas for my proposal initially came from Tyler N. Allen, who has done extensive research on this proposal. Ultimately, this idea needs to get to Rep Northup, as the time before construction is winding down. If possible, I would like to hear a response to my proposal. Thank you for your consideration.

Well...on the topic of greenspace, here's some very good news about Louisville's..

This is GREAT news!!!! Way to go Louisville.

Okay, gych, because I'm short on time I only skimmed through your last post. I don't agree with what you said for several reasons:

-I-64 downtown has not disconnected the city from the riverfront. If Louisvillians suddenly became 20 feet tall as well as the cars we drive became the same height, then we'd be disconnected, but there is absolutely no problem for us to get to the river, nor will there be once the downtown bridge is finished.

-The construction of both bridges will make it easier for people to get downtown. Think of the amount of traffic coming from the East End into Spaghetti Junction during the evening rush, that will be eliminated and one can get downtown easily.

-The reconstructed Spaghetti Junction will not impede anyone's attempts to revamp Butchertown. Check the maps.

-Routing I-64 onto I-265 would be asinine because people usually look at maps to check for things like bypasses and those that don't would follow the signs for the new I-64 and bypass downtown. How is the city supposed to pique peoples' interests in downtown Louisville if nobody is going to drive by to check it out?

If none of that makes sense I'm in a hurry, I'll elaborate tonight.

I do agree, 64 has cut us off of the river. Not because we can't see it or walk up to it, but because buildings and restaurants cant line it at the center of downtown unless under the freeway or with the freeway between buildings and the river.
Gych's suggestion to oust 64 is the best I've yet heard because rerouting to the south would be destruction of history. However, with all that new traffic to IN, I would be sour to see development sprawl there because it suddenly became so easy for them to get around town. If we just spilled commuter traffic into downtown it would no longer be a heavily used interstate giving off an impression of Louisville.
Bypassing to IN just scares me that it would help in their case to become more powerful as a draw from downtown for entertainment and retail.
Hmm all this talk about 64, I'm just waiting for somone to suggests a stupid tunnel under downtown...

But why do we need businesses and buildings to line the riverfront when we still have a whole downtown to fill first? Like I said, I-64 has not separated the city from the riverfront.

Because a riverfront property is desireable in a downtown, not to mention it is a heritage thing. A lot of people are stung about a highway being there instead of nice houses or businesses. They see it as a bad way to show how we appreciate the reason why the city stands here today at all.
But in any case, riverfront property would fill fast, and in return help the rest of downtown fill and thrive. It wouldn't be just more land to fill so much as business to gain if ever 64 were to be rerouted.

"They see it as a bad way to show how we appreciate the reason why the city stands here today at all."

The reason is industry and factories, not a river lined with tacky bars and shops.

Also, I wouldnt bank on Anne Northup giving that a seconds thought. It sounds like some sort of Sim City esque dream. I guess it is just that the way it is is fine, Portland doesnt develop because it is a poor neighborhood. There could easily be urban crap on the river right now, the sidewalks connect, it is not like you have to fly over 64, I guess I am just not getting what you are saying fully.

Our riverfront property is best left as parkland. We don't need businesses to show how we have ameliorated our riverfront. We don't exactly say that we're preserving our farming heritage when we plop a neighborhood on top of a former farm... Also, businesses aren't going to flock to a piece of floodplain next to a poo brown river.

Actually, the reason Louisville exists is the falls of the ohio, but yeah, that too.

I don't actually mind 64 being there that much (if only that big LG&E eyesore of wires and steel weren't there next to the Waterfront Plaza though. Bad impression of downtown)
I don't agree that we are cutting away from our river heritage, that's just what a lot of ppl opposed to 64 being there say. Quite frankly the river has outlived it's shipping usefulness. Thats what planes are for.

"Our riverfront property is best left as parkland."

I actually think a big extended waterfront park there instead would be interesting... kinda like that west waterfrontpark they want. hah I laugh at that actually happening though.

Adressing Portland, I need to go find an article I read on CJ about development in portland. They want to do what they did on the east side with all the warehouses in portland. It would tie in this desire of a west waterfront park.

Here is the article about waterfront growth on the west side of downtown.

http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050730/NEWS0102/507300408/1027

BTW, the ohio is only poop colored after a heavy rain from in the east. Otherwise, it's... er, not soooo poop brown. >_>
No, I have seen it look very pleasant many a time, and crappy many a time too. It's a river, what can ya do about it?
How bout we put a big PULP strainer in the Ohio river! :D
Naw, I like my OJ filthy and guilty.

I've read that article, honestly I see it taking a while before Portland is anything else that what it is now. Now, the proposal at hand is a major plus for the area, and I fully support it, but I don't know that for the time being that it would completely change the face of the neighborhood,just that particular area. Now twenty years from now, Portland could quite possibly be a totally different place. Both the projects mentioned in the article will be very nice addition to Downtown.

As far as the downtown bridge is concerned, I can't really say that I like I-64 going over Waterfront Park, but I wouldn't say that it cuts off Louisville with the river. Personally I think that when Waterfront Park was opened up it allowed Louisville to once again connect with the river. I honestly don't notice I-64 that much when I go down the the park, for all the bad things about it, I would say that the highway is a very good way to get a nice view of downtown. For that reason I would have to say that I wouldn't want it to bypass 64 to Indiana. Spaghetti Junction should've been revamped years ago, I don't think it will really much more room that it currently does, the only bad thing I see about it is that 64 over the park will be wider, but still I don't think that it will be the end of downtown development, if anything I think it would help. A few older homes will have to be torn down, but thats just the way downtown development projects go.

"They see it as a bad way to show how we appreciate the reason why the city stands here today at all."

The reason is industry and factories, not a river lined with tacky bars and shops.

Also, I wouldnt bank on Anne Northup giving that a seconds thought. It sounds like some sort of Sim City esque dream. I guess it is just that the way it is is fine, Portland doesnt develop because it is a poor neighborhood. There could easily be urban crap on the river right now, the sidewalks connect, it is not like you have to fly over 64, I guess I am just not getting what you are saying fully.


Wow, you guys are incredibly short sighted. Look at this map (and zoom in) and tell me the new freeways wont be a tacky, UGLY mess of concrete and flyover ramps:

http://www.kyinbridges.com/KennedyInterchange.aspx

You really need this Tyler Allen guy to show you what they have proposed--he has blown up aerials and it is absolutely disgusting what they are planning. Honestly, you really have to see the blown up aerials to see what a travesty this new interchange will be. Honestly, I cant believe we do this before considering light rail or my proposal for 64. Just shows Louisville and its residents and leaders never think outside the box.

Just look what Boston is doing--and Portland, OR, dont listen to my advice.

And about downtown filling up--it is MUCH easier to sell condos on the river with that beautiful view etc, and down there it seems miles away from the urban grit and industry that is right in or near downtown. I think people also feel "safer" down on the waterfront bc although its in the city, when you are down there you feel like you are not. How else can you explain empty nesters buying condos down there who would normally live in Glenview or Indian Hills?

There is a much higher market for riverfront property and restaurants in this city than for CBD loft living. Hell, just look at the success of the new Tumbleweed. It was a crappy chain everyone was sick of, and now its packed day and night!! With all the good eats in the city thats amazing. And I cant tell you how many people visit Louisville and ask why there isnt more restaurants on the river!

Ick... That is a lot of concrete... WELL, sure looks like spaghetti. :okay:
I dunno, it just seems like there could be something less, uh, MASSIVE of a solution. But I don't think it will be too bad in the end.

I totally agree that an extention of 265 across the river is good, but the downtown one... I dunno. Eh. I guess if I haven't got an idea I think is any better to fix the situation, I should just keep quiet.

I've seen the plans and honestly don't think they're that bad. Right now, the plans look worse because the existing Interstate is still in the photo. Keep in mind that the entire East End entrance into downtown is going to be removed, thus opening up more land adjacent to Waterfront Park. That is a plus. Also, this new interchange, despite being more complicated, isn't much larger than the current setup while greatly increasing the efficiency.

Cutting off I-64 East of downtown is a horrible idea because it would detour out of town travelers AROUND the city rather than through it. I can hear it now.....

'St. Louis looked great, the arch was really cool. I might come back and visit when I have more time. Louisville, on the other hand, was nothing more than a suburban wasteland. Must be a boring place to live.'

Are people that stupid? Yes

I'm sorry but if we're spending all of this money to improve our downtown, I want everybody to see it. Not just those that live here.

I also think the new interchange going over Waterfront Park is a non-issue as well. Infact, the overhead roadways are one of my favorite features of the park. I consider this to be one of the finest urban renewal projects ever completed because the park was forced to adapt to its environment. Rather than close the city out and provide a quiet retreat, this park seems to exist within the hustle and bustle of a large urban area. Instead of waterfalls, we hear the distant rumble of cars and trucks. Instead of birds, car horns chirp occasionally in the distance. Instead of trees, large towering road sculptures provide shelter from the sun and rain. A rather unusual concept in urban planning that I think shows the ability to 'think outside the box'.

Cardpooch, you stole those words straight from my fingertips!

Gych : I have never heard the complaint that there wasnt more restaurants on the river. Tumbleweed isnt even downtown so that is null as well. For someone who enjoys "bohemia" so much I am surprised to see you flaunting something like Tumbleweed anyways. I dont understand your empty nesters not buying condos unless they are on the river thing because WFPP is behind I-64, they could give a damn, they bought the condos because they are nice, new and available. Anyways how do you know they are people that would normally buy into a single family home in Glenview, telephone survey? There is plenty of space to be taken up downtown and willfully taken. As for your restaurants on the river, keep hooters and buckhead in Indiana along with the fruitcakes who think its cool.

As for the river only being brown sometimes, you are kidding yourself. It is either brown with branches chocolate milk, or baby diarhea nuclear fish surprise.

Cardpooch, you stole those words straight from my fingertips!

Honestly, as always me as well. One of the few Louisville forumers that actually makes a damn bit of sense.

I've seen the plans and honestly don't think they're that bad. Right now, the plans look worse because the existing Interstate is still in the photo. Keep in mind that the entire East End entrance into downtown is going to be removed, thus opening up more land adjacent to Waterfront Park. That is a plus. Also, this new interchange, despite being more complicated, isn't much larger than the current setup while greatly increasing the efficiency

My simple mind had not thought of that! The old interchange stuff being gone makes a huge difference! Ok it's fine by me, its no different than the interchange is right now space wise, which I havent an issue with.
And I totally agree with liking the highway over waterfront park. That's how i avoided the sleet this past Thunder. I owe it my life... Or at least my personal comfort.

As for the river only being brown sometimes, you are kidding yourself. It is either brown with branches chocolate milk, or baby diarhea nuclear fish surprise.

Alrighty then! Pulp strainer it is?
I really think I thought outside of the box on this one guys!

I can already see vinyl city popping up around the east end bridge, that is prime land for the vinyl lovers with a mix of 500,000 to 1 million dollar homes.lol Anyways while I get gych's point I don't think at this juncture there is much that can be done and tearing down I-64; that would cause another uproar and gosh I can only imagine how long it would take for that to happen because of politics.

IMHO it is what it is right now, but even though it looks rather massive, it is still better than what currently exists. I'm sure everybody will agree with that, spaghetti junction is one of the worst designed highway systems in the country. Whatever engineer designed that piece of shit was sniffing something. I can't believe the city looked at those blueprints and gave it two thumbs up. Anyways I think the new bridges will help with navigating around the city alot better and more importantly bring visitors closer to downtown. I think restaraunts will open around the river period because of the spectacular views. Plus with the excitement around people coming back downtown, as long as you have people living downtown restaraunts will follow. Like gych said even though tumbleweed isn't anything to sneeze at it actually looks rather nice inside and the views are great at night.

I certainly would rather have light rail but this is Louisville Kentucky and I can't give city leaders that much credibility. I took what all of 30 yrs to finally scrape up the dough to build two bridges now maybe it will take another 30 yrs to get them built. In louisville we love to take baby steps.

Any news on the Ali Center, so is it going to open on time, or what?

Dunno, haven't heard much lately, but from the how it looks as last I've seen it, I don't think it will open this year like they had been saying forever.

I can already see vinyl city popping up around the east end bridge, that is prime land for the vinyl lovers with a mix of 500,000 to 1 million dollar homes.lol

Thats the only thing that I don't like about the east end bridge, but I figure it's already going on anyways, so whats the difference. Hopefully the park ring planned around suburban Louisville will help to contain sprawl a bit within Jefferson County Lines. IMO the bridges will end up helping the area as a whole (probably a little more so So. Indiana). Maybe for once people will begin to see our neighbors accross the river as well..our neighbors.

I have this stupid pointless hope that with all the new suburban parks planned, we might see some attractive homes with oldstyle charcater like our older parks or a less generic layout at least, houses pushing up to the edges of the parks. I doubt it though. *sigh* I fear that subdivisions will continue to snuff at wanting to become unique or blend with history.
But wouldn't it be interesting to see in 100 years after these parks are finished if they look anything like Cherokee or Iriquois?


^^I think that whether the bridge is there or not, it would become vinyl simply because it's out in the suburbs, and where along the gene snyder are you going to find anything being newly built that isnt vinyl?

This is horrible news, and I promised you guys this info was coming out soon. I sure thought they would lure a tenant from another city, but alas, this is Louisville. 750 jobs out of downtown stings, and so the merged city competes with its burbs again:

http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050804/BUSINESS/50804004/1003

Oldham County has landed an anchor tenant for its 1,000-acre, mixed-use development near LaGrange that officials hope will create as many as 6,500 jobs.

The Rawlings Group, a downtown Louisville company that administers cost-reduction programs for group health-insurance plans, will construct a 150,000-square-foot headquarters as part of a 100-acre campus within the development, the Oldham County
Economic Development Authority announced Thursday.

It said Rawlings initially will move about 750 employees into its new building when it opens in late 2007.

The development is south of Interstate 71 and bounded by New Moody Lane, Ky. 53 and Moody Lane. It’s expected to take up to 20 years to complete, and would include an elementary school, single-family homes, apartments, restaurants, offices, a hotel and a movie theater.

Gych, I realize this is not good news, but come on, this happens everyday in nearly every major American city...this is not some sort of Louisville thing.

Downtown just gained 1300 jobs from Humana so we take the good with the bad and we're still ahead. There are going to be future expansions in our downtown and in our suburbs...at least they are still in town.

I love all the talk of the new projects and Thoughts,, ECT... I really like I-64 in downtown escpecially b/c it sorta gives the park a barrier and some shade.. plus its like a waterfall.. while laying there it gives like a soothing yet weird sound of cars.

I really dont agree with the downtown bridge though the east end bridge is a major +... but it may add to the architecture of our downtown if the bridge looks decent... Do they have any renderings??

Gych, I realize this is not good news, but come on, this happens everyday in nearly every major American city...this is not some sort of Louisville thing.

Downtown just gained 1300 jobs from Humana so we take the good with the bad and we're still ahead. There are going to be future expansions in our downtown and in our suburbs...at least they are still in town.


Oh I know. And I really believe you probably need a classy development like this in booming Oldham to help it keep up with the exurban jones'. That is, Louisville needs to better develop a "corporate executive" suburb that has more corporate headquarters and class A office space for relocating companies. We just need to get more of those companies in here, and the modern fact is that these companies often prefer these suburban upscale office parks to mid sized city downtowns (ie, unless you are NYC, Chicago, etc, its hard to get these things downtown).

With that being said, this will help exurban Louisville compete with say, Brentwood (Nashville) or Germantown (Memphis) TN or Carmel, IN or Cary, NC to name a few. These are all large exurban areas with their own character but also decent sized populations, upscale housing, top schools, and corporate opportunities abounding. Oldham has that potential bc of the upscale houses, golfing, and outstanding school system. As much as I despsise these things, cities need to offer transplants these options--but they also need to offer a good downtown or city option, and Louisville is doing a better job.

Interesting article I found for S. Indiana. This confirms that Veterans will now become Hurstbourne North:

More development headed to 'sold out' Veterans Parkway area in Clarksville

(Jeffersonville) Evening News
By JOHN L. GILKEY
Evening News Senior Editor

New Albany developer Gary McCartin has filed an application before the Clarksville Plan Commission seeking preliminary plat approval on a 14.7-acre project off Broadway Street in Clarksville that will be the site of a commercial subdivision housing a motel, two hotels and four restaurants.

The application is listed on the Jan. 5 commission docket according to spokeswoman Patty Mullen of the Clarksville Building Commissioner's office.

While there has been no identification of tenants in the development, plans on file with the building commissioner do list proposed sizes of the development, which will be south of the planned Lowes development on Veterans Parkway and north of Premiere RV and the Outback Steakhouse on the east side of Broadway.

Plans call for two 8,300-square-foot restaurants each on a 1.43-acre tract and adjacent to one another and near the entrance of the development. The third restaurant is proposed at 6,000 square feet on 1.24 acres while the fourth is proposed as a 6,550-square-foot building on 1.96 acres.

The motel proposed in the plans would contain 64,566 square feet and is listed on the site plan as an extended stay, three-story motel containing 72 rooms. One of the hotels is listed as a five story development with 147 rooms and containing 74,925 square feet on a 2.44-acre track. The other is a four-story development with 130 rooms. It contains 59,576 square feet according to the proposed plans and will be built on a 2.7-acre tract.

"We have asked Mr. McCartin for a traffic analysis to see how the project will impact traffic on Broadway," said Clarksville Town engineer Tom Clevidence. "We know it has the potential to significantly impact traffic flows."_

The development is the second for McCartin in the general vicinity of the town's Veterans Parkway corridor. The first involves three-phase development that will incorporate a mix of big box retail, smaller specialty retail outlets and possibly hotels. He unveiled plans earlier this year for a $25 million Summit-like development just west of the Clarksville Town Administrative Complex to be called Waterford Park. That development will provide as much as 225,000 square feet of retail.

A tract to the south was added incorporating 100,000 additional square feet of retail in a development expected to cost $15 million.

The development going before the Plan Commission next month was actually referenced in September by McCartin incorporating as many as three hotels, one of them possibly themed as a resort hotel. BassPro officials, who are presently remodeling the River Falls Mall into what could become the chain's largest retail outlet have declined to comment in detail on a resort hotel that is expected to be built near their new facility in the River Falls Mall, but the two developments would be essentially opposite one another.

Published reports identified potential businesses locating in McCartin's Waterford Park as Panera Bread, Olive Garden Italian Restaurant, Smoky Bones BBQ, Longhorn Steak House, Johnny Carino's Country Italian and Ryan's Family Steakhouse. Others include Target, Best Buy, Old Navy, Lane Bryant, Bed Bath & Beyond and Dress Barn. Hallmark, Subway, FedEx, Kinko's, Regis Salons and Smith's Furniture are additional potential tenants.

McCartin only just got approval on his final plat in time to meet a deadline imposed by Target. The delay developed over a number of items that did not conform to the town's architectural overlay that imposes an additional set of guidelines that must be met when building in the Veterans Parkway Corridor.

McCartin said all of the restaurants listed are definite and he stressed, "I've probably answered this question 12,000 times, but Olive Garden is a definite. They will be here either in Waterford Park or in the general area."

He said the size of restaurants and hotels listed on the preliminary plat are general concepts and are based on national standards for the class of hotel being sought as that particular piece of the development. "Right now we don't have anyone signed, but there is no doubt that we can support this number of restaurants and hotels.

He said none of the hotels will be owned or operated by Bass Pro as part of its operations at the River Falls Mall, but said it is the Bass Pro development that makes the development possible.

"We are looking at a range of hotels from a high-end to an economy hotel catering to the business traveler," McCartin said. "We need a high-end, mid-range and economy hotel to meet the needs of all customers."

Part of Bass Pro's business model is to offer seminars to bring customers to its stores. McCartin said the hotels will offer options to persons attending those seminars, along with their families who can use the hotel as a base of operations while they shop at stores in the area.

The restaurants will help service the hotels that do not offer food service in addition to mall visitors and local residents dining out. He said there is an incredible demand for restaurant locations in the area. "Between Waterford Place, Waterford Place South and the bales Lane Properties we could have accommodated twice as many restaurants as we have room for," McCartin said.

"For all intents and purposes, Venerans Parkway is sold out," McCartin said.

Clarksville Town Council President John Minta agreed. "We expected to see the Veterans Parkway build out over five years," he said. "It will actually take only two years."

Copyright © 2004 The Evening News/The Tribune

Honestly, I like to hear development from all parts around the city. Some parts more than others, but the more development we have, the stronger and more competitive Louisville is against other cities because development=population, jobs, services, whatever. Even if it's in Indiana, it's really part of Louisville and helps to stregnthen the over-all area and metro.
However, I do wish that we would develop land that isn't yet used inside Jefferson County before we start sprawling so much into Oldham county.

Oh I know. And I really believe you probably need a classy development like this in booming Oldham to help it keep up with the exurban jones'. That is, Louisville needs to better develop a "corporate executive" suburb that has more corporate headquarters and class A office space for relocating companies. We just need to get more of those companies in here, and the modern fact is that these companies often prefer these suburban upscale office parks to mid sized city downtowns (ie, unless you are NYC, Chicago, etc, its hard to get these things downtown).

With that being said, this will help exurban Louisville compete with say, Brentwood (Nashville) or Germantown (Memphis) TN or Carmel, IN or Cary, NC to name a few. These are all large exurban areas with their own character but also decent sized populations, upscale housing, top schools, and corporate opportunities abounding. Oldham has that potential bc of the upscale houses, golfing, and outstanding school system. As much as I despsise these things, cities need to offer transplants these options--but they also need to offer a good downtown or city option, and Louisville is doing a better job.

A couple of days back I said I could see La Grange easily becoming another carmel. LaGrange is now starting to become that type of coporate town. I know we mentioned Mt Washington, but LaGrange has the make up, its in a county where the income levels are very high and the school system is great. All they need in LaGrange are those classic corporate hotels ala Embassy Suites and Wyndham and big corporate class A buildings. Its great to see that Oldham county is realizing there potential as a bedroom community slash suburb of Louisville. Thats where alot of the out of town folks are moving to anyway. I'm also glad to see that Bullitt county is trying to attract places like that, but i still see Bullitt as being the Logistics hub of the metro, especially if they continue to build all these distribution centers. I think these counties are finally realizing that they feed off Jefferson County for economic survival. The more they feed the more companies they will bring to the metro.

^^Hopefully i will be companies from outside the metro, and not companies relocating from downtown like the Rawlings group.

OK, so I know this is off the subject, but I was tryin to look up info on the Ali Center, and I'm still a little in the dark as to what they are really trying to do. They say it's for bringing cultures together and promoting peace and Ali's lifestyle blah blah blah everything I read is just fancy visionary purposes. How exactly is it supposed to do all this???

I really like the way that Clarksville(North Louisville)...is turning out.. I think that the city should look and start cleaning up the Dixie Highway area.. I mean come on their are wealthy people out their and to come to Louisville From Ft. Knox im almost embarrassed to say that I live off that road although its still is better than lets say 5 years ago.(by the way it has become my favorite place in the city besides downtown>besides dixie Highway.. I live off Arnoldtown Road now and its beautiful up in the Waverly Hills and every house around me goes for at least $400,000

Good news for West Main St from Humana


Humana is buying most of the block of West Main Street next to its corporate headquarters to provide more meeting, dining and office space for employees.

Humana is investing $12 million and will work with preservation experts to renovate several historic buildings, including restoring cast-iron facades.

The buildings date from around 1880 or 1890 and once housed a cigar company, a mill-supply business, a chemical company, a department store and other businesses.

Patrick Nall of Tucker & Booker, architect for the project, said his company has obtained old photographs from University of Louisville archives to help it restore the facades.

An existing restaurant and a printing business will remain in the block, on the south side of Main between Fifth and Sixth streets.
Humana, which has its headquarters on the corner of Fifth, will acquire all of the block except the two buildings nearest Sixth.

The purchase isn’t directly related to Humana’s previously announced plan to add 1,100 Louisville employees, spokesman Dick Brown said.

Humana has said it will lease space in the Waterfront Plaza development on Main Street for some of those employees and put others elsewhere. The company owns several buildings on Main and leases other space downtown.

“The Humana building is just full,” Brown said, referring to the headquarters tower. The company will create needed conference and meeting space in the new buildings, as well as a food-service area spanning the first floor of three buildings.

Humana already owns the building next to its headquarters, the Kaster Building at 516 W. Main St. The Java Brewing Co. will remain a tenant on the first floor.

City Wok restaurant will remain at 526 West Main, one of the buildings being acquired. The others are at 518, 520 and 522-24 West Main.

Hurt Printing will move from 518 to 522-24 West Main when space there is ready.

Work on the project will begin this fall.

And about Clarksville...they are starting to recognize that they are going to have to be proactive if they want to revive Eastern and keep Lewis & Clark from completely dying off.

I live on a road directly connected to Eastern and I have to say that I like the incredibly influx of Mexican immigrants and thier business. They are turning Eastern into a Little Mexico, if you will, and the town in currently preparing plans to repave, add a turn lane, sidewalks, and landscaping to Eastern. Clarksville is really trying to reinvest in it's old areas...which is about damned time!

Veterans is really booming...I honestly cannot believe all the action that is going on. RiverFalls no longer looks like itself, the BassPro is going to be open in just a few months, bringing with it a HUGE influx of shoppers into the town from all over Kentucky and Indiana...however with this new Jeffersonville Town Center I do worry about Greentree Mall, I just hope they get a strong enough retail base to continue it's drawing power.

see next...

And about Clarksville...they are starting to recognize that they are going to have to be proactive if they want to revive Eastern and keep Lewis & Clark from completely dying off.

I live on a road directly connected to Eastern and I have to say that I like the incredibly influx of Mexican immigrants and thier business. They are turning Eastern into a Little Mexico, if you will, and the town in currently preparing plans to repave, add a turn lane, sidewalks, and landscaping to Eastern. Clarksville is really trying to reinvest in it's old areas...which is about damned time!

Veterans is really booming...I honestly cannot believe all the action that is going on. RiverFalls no longer looks like itself, the BassPro is going to be open in just a few months, bringing with it a HUGE influx of shoppers into the town from all over Kentucky and Indiana...however with this new Jeffersonville Town Center I do worry about Greentree Mall, I just hope they get a strong enough retail base to continue it's drawing power.

Yeah, and I know the target is going to close on Lewis and Clark since they are opening the new super Target on Veterans. Also, Circuit City will have a hard time compteting with the new Best Buy on Veterans as well, so that may leave two more large, vacant buildings next to Greentree. There are already a decent amount of vacancies on Lewis and Clark, including an old Budget store and some kind of dealership that are both huge outlot eyesores. And when will Lewis and Clark construction finish? What EXACTLY are they trying to do over there?

Also, with Bed Bath and Beyond and Lane Bryant and Old Navy comes all the minvan nation restuarants you would expect. Veterans already has Cheddars and Famous daves, and I am sure they will get Olive Garden, Panera, Chilis and for god sakes hopefully a starbucks although I know there are a lot of good independet roasters over in Indiana. These businesses siging on prove that the demographics of S. Indiana have changed drastically over the last 10 years. S. Indiana is now a viable and good alternative to Louisville east and south suburbs bc of good housing prices, relatively short commutes, and now a good retail base that doesnt require one to drive to St Matthews for a freaking Old Navy!

Basically, these are the types of chains that dont locate on old, dumpy commerical corridors similar to Lewis and Clark, Dixie, or Preston HWy, or Outer Loop. They prefer the Hurstbournes, shelbyvilles, westports, veterans etc that look nicer. Despite some of the strong demographics of the aforementioned Preston, or Lewis and Clark etc, if the corridor looks like a dump no out of town exec wants to put his shiny new store there.

sorry for the triple post, but, in other news, a new nightclub called Villa Fontana will open up in Theatre Square downtown on 4th st next to BBC in the Old Hugs building. Should open in September and be pretty cool. The owners are Indian guys I think who are going to market it to the professional set with expendable income in the 27 and up age range. This is good, as the city needs more upscale nightlife options for this demographic bc they are willing to pay more not to have to deal with thugs and college frat boys at some other clubs. The dress code should be extremely strict, probably no jeans, etc.

Is it going to the first of it's kind? Not a chain like the red cheetah or anything?
I really hope that some good local entertainment and shops fill up the rest of 4th street because too much national chain stuff will make just a big mall for convention tourists, which in some respects wouldn't be so bad, but national chains get boring and are also are more likely to leave than a locally owned business.

Does anyone here know about what is in the Landmark building downtown. Now THAT is a gourgeous and amazing building. I am drawing a blank on what street that is, but it is kinda by 4th street live kitty (catty, caddy) corner to the Marriott. I also was noticing that the wall on the Marriott facing where the arena may go (thats what I understood) is simply terrible, very much the opposite of pedestrian friendly.

Like I asked before, has anyone heard about the Airport Wyndham? Last I heard it was still a go, but it had to be shorter, that was about a year ago almost though.

I was in Kroger in the Highlands and I saw a poster up for new housing construction (2 developments) I didnt really have time to stop and look, but does anyone know where they are locating. Driving by, I did see a fenced off area with a picture of a enw development, but that looked commercial.

I drove by the new lofts in Clifton and they are looking gourgeous, I hope to see more like it in the area. I love Frankfort Ave. , but I always thought it could use a little more of that urban commercial flavor found on Bardstown Rd.

Someone had said before or I read it and cant find it, but how much longer is Dawahares going to be in the old Lord and Taylor spot, still no rumblings about a new store eh? *Pleeeaase dont turn it into a seasonal store again* Cheesecake Factory is nearing completion, with the letters all up, pretty snazzy, it looks good on that mall. We are moving up in the world hehe, maybe now that they have one people will finally accept that we wear shoes and shirts.

Oh, by the way, that is great about 4th street spreading its wings. There were talks on the news about Cordish buying up the street and making 4th street live extend to Broadway. Did that not materialize or is it still in the works and not released yet?

Have any of you ever seen 2nd street and Broadway in Nashville? Thats what I picture 4th street live looking like in the end (whenever the end is), but of course a ton less country. Do you guys think though that Downtown and the neighborhoods can co-exist, or are you not really worried about it.

170 new jobs being added to the Meidinger Tower downtown. Plus the news of Humana renovating so many buildings along W Main...downtown is on a roll this week

Mercer adding 170 area jobs
Retiree services consolidating here
By Patrick Howington
phowington@courier-journal.com
The Courier-Journal



Mercer Human Resource Consulting, an international human-resources company in New York, is adding about 170 jobs to its Louisville operation.

The company is creating a new retirement service center at its offices in the Meidinger Tower, 462 S. Fourth St.

Mercer already has more than 500 employees in Louisville, one of 40 Mercer offices in the United States.

The new jobs will pay between $25,000 and $45,000 a year, though team-leader positions will pay more, said Henry Erk, head of retirement consulting for the Louisville office.

Erk said Mercer decided to locate the center in Louisville because it is one of Mercer's largest U.S. offices and "the quality of the operations here is viewed within Mercer as being extremely high." Also, the city has a lower cost of living than some other Mercer sites.

The center will consolidate retirement-related work now done at each Mercer office.

Employees will review data turned in periodically by clients so employee pension plans can be updated.

Erk said Mercer already has transferred some employees to Louisville to work at the center but expects to fill most of the 170 positions locally.

The new employees will require training, but Erk said Mercer believes the Louisville area can supply enough people with the needed skills.

Mercer will hire gradually, taking until the end of next year or so to fill all the jobs. That's because work will gradually be shifted from other offices to Louisville.

Erk said Mercer will lease more space in the Meidinger Tower to accommodate the added employees. The company occupies about 10 floors of the building.

About the Wyndham Airport...that has been put on hold. Even after the reduction in the size of the hotel, it was priced way above what the airport authority wanted to pay, and with the development of a hotel being directly connected to the KFEC they were worried their hotel would not survive...so they are currently doing ANOTHER study to see if they can prosper with a new hotel and one at the KFEC so near by.

About MSM, they are basically sitting on the old Lord&Taylor site. My mother manages Carlton Cards in Oxmoor Center (so if you ever need cards, screw Hallmark and go to Carlton...SHE NEEDS THE BUSINESS) and I am friends withthe manager of Carlton at MSM...she is constantly asking questions about the mall over there. They informed her that there are several proposals, none of them pleasing to me. One is to turn it into a movie theatre and some small stores. Another is to just convert the space into mall space with stores. Another is to move the Men's Dillards into it and then convert the Dillards into mall space...but that talks with Nordstrom and Bloomingdales fell through and that there are no current talks with an anchor tenent.

I figured the anchor tenant talks were pretty much over, with them they either want it or they dont (I was hoping for a Nordstrom, but I am just about over them and how fickle they are with everyone). At this point I think that the best thing would be for them to convert it into mall space. If it is done in an attractive way of course. The mall space IS needed because there are still alot of the 'lifestyle' type of homestores missing and other things that id like to have like Kenneth Cole. I would imagine in the end MSM/Oxmoor will end up like a Kenwood of sorts, same management, similar market, same deals. I AM surprised Parisian hasnt looked at it, because they are in every major market around, and even some smaller ones like Mobile Al. I think they are hard up now though. A movie theater would not be very attractive.

Great news about the addition of downtown jobs, especially in that tower which was looking a little grim for a while lease wise. As 4th street live gets more mature those towers of course will (and presently are) very prime.

I was at Greentree Mall the other day by the way (I like to switch it up a bit). Alot of people have expressed concern for what the Town Center will do to the mall. I dont think it will change it all that much really because the mall is pretty full with what it needs to have. It is missing abercrombie, abercrombie and fitch, express (which was in River Falls) I think it will just make up for the absence of what was never there and for the things removed from River Falls. I am a little pissed that Target didnt remodel there store and just built a new one, VERY wasteful. The remodeled the one on Taylorsville, but of course there isnt large swaths of land for them to rape there. I do hope it will be a Super Target though, especially since Indiana allows liquor and wine in grocery stores ;-). (They have a good wine selection surprisingly)

Sucks about the hotel, but oh well whatever what are ya gonna do. The Airport/Six Flags/Fairgrounds are crawling with hotels, we will manage, I guess.

Great news about the addition of downtown jobs, especially in that tower which was looking a little grim for a while lease wise. As 4th street live gets more mature those towers of course will (and presently are) very prime.

Not just 4th street live, but all of 4th street, as it matures and fills in south of 4th street live, will make downtown overall more appealing for offices to locate there and be able to make for a better choice against suburbs.

The development for downtown is GREAT...

The MSM should just use the space for mall space and get Dawahares(EWW) out of their it makes the whole mall look bad.. they should also throw out Payless, and if another anchor wants space shit kick out JC Penney... WORKS FOR ME..

About GreenTree Mall: I do believe it will survive but I am still wondering about what will go in Jeff Town Cen... GreenTree doesnt have an Abercrombie, Abercrombie & Fitch, Pottery Barn, Express, Express Men, ect... will that stuff most likely be put in Jeff. Town Cen. you guys think?

I figured the anchor tenant talks were pretty much over, with them they either want it or they dont (I was hoping for a Nordstrom, but I am just about over them and how fickle they are with everyone). At this point I think that the best thing would be for them to convert it into mall space. If it is done in an attractive way of course. The mall space IS needed because there are still alot of the 'lifestyle' type of homestores missing and other things that id like to have like Kenneth Cole. I would imagine in the end MSM/Oxmoor will end up like a Kenwood of sorts, same management, similar market, same deals. I AM surprised Parisian hasnt looked at it, because they are in every major market around, and even some smaller ones like Mobile Al. I think they are hard up now though. A movie theater would not be very attractive.

Great news about the addition of downtown jobs, especially in that tower which was looking a little grim for a while lease wise. As 4th street live gets more mature those towers of course will (and presently are) very prime.

I was at Greentree Mall the other day by the way (I like to switch it up a bit). Alot of people have expressed concern for what the Town Center will do to the mall. I dont think it will change it all that much really because the mall is pretty full with what it needs to have. It is missing abercrombie, abercrombie and fitch, express (which was in River Falls) I think it will just make up for the absence of what was never there and for the things removed from River Falls. I am a little pissed that Target didnt remodel there store and just built a new one, VERY wasteful. The remodeled the one on Taylorsville, but of course there isnt large swaths of land for them to rape there. I do hope it will be a Super Target though, especially since Indiana allows liquor and wine in grocery stores ;-). (They have a good wine selection surprisingly)

Sucks about the hotel, but oh well whatever what are ya gonna do. The Airport/Six Flags/Fairgrounds are crawling with hotels, we will manage, I guess.

Well, I saw there are talks Indy will get ANOTHER Nordstrom or another Crate and Barrel in former anchor spots in Greenwood and Castleton Malls (LS Ayres and Macys are closing in those malls). Neiman Marcus is adding 7 new stores in the next two years and is also looking at Indy. This is really astounding that these stores would open multiple locations in that city before LOOKING here?

Even Fort Wayne, IN is getting an H&M before us. To me this is absolutely amazing. Honestly, either the retail scene is just that hard and horrible here, or somebody in the chamber of commerce (or the owner, General Growth or whoever) is not doing a good job getting halfway decent stores in our malls. I mean Cheescake is a nice step, and I dont think I have seen them in a Mall with such craptastic department stores as MSM, but oh well.

Nordstrom was sposed to move to MSM in 2002, but the leasing fell through. Are they just charging astounding lease rates there that is just not worth it for an upscale store when they would be in the same mall as Payless and Dawahares?

Simon really just seems to be the best mall operator at this point. I wouldnt mind them coming in here and opening a super regional Mall near Lake Forest or something and trying to put MSM out of business. Just open the damn thing with Nordstrom, Saks, Crate and Barrel, and Macys as anchors. Get some bullshit chain restaurants that suburbanites fiend over like McCormick and Schmicks, etc. Put in Urban Outfitters and the rest of the standards (JCrew, Banana, etc) and maybe two upscale boutiques and honestly the real money who actually BUYS things at MSM would never return to that mall--or Oxmoor. Either that or actually make MSM (or Oxmoor) upscale, and kick the bullshit out. Honestly, if I am buying a $300 shirt at a mall like that, I dont want to have to walk by the thugs chilling at Foot Locker and watch the rednecks strolling into Dawahares.

Schris will probably get on here and say I am dreaming, but hell Birmingham, Richmond, and even Tulsa OKLAHOMA have malls like I just described. This amazes me, it really does.

From General Growth, look what I found for MSM. What in the HELL are some of these stores. I think they are just putting crap in there. Forever 21? Is that like some junky teen store? Oh and a new Chick Filet! Awesome!!! :(

Opening in August

Cat Bird Seat
Kay Jewelers

Opening in September

The Cheesecake Factory

Chick-Fil-A (new location!)

Opening in Noember
Forever 21

I read that as well, about the second Nordstrom/Crate and Barrel location. I think it is quite far fetched. Especially since a Crate and Barrel in Castleton Square would be too close to Fashion Mall and they would not touch Greenwood Park, I see Greenwood as the equvalent of Elizabethtown if that. Of course Nordstrom would not go into Greenwood either, with the demographic again and with it being so close to downtown. If one did go into Castleton Square Indianapolis can kiss a huge chunk of destination retail goodbye. Also I didnt see the part about Neiman Marcus in Indianapolis, just that there were talks, boy would that be a slap in the face to so many other cities lol, especially Louisville as it has deep ties to the store. H&M has not begun its southern expansion process in full swing yet, I believe they will spread like wildfire soon and we will think nothing of it. H&M though is one of those stores that would be nice to have in a department store converted into mall space.

I have to agree Mall St. Matthews is not ideal for a Cheesecake Factory, but I think what the developer was looking at was probably the retail corridor of Shelbyville Road as a whole. General Growth has done wonders with some other properties, having our largest in their hands, I trust them. Of course the company that manages Springhurst and Jefferson Mall has some great properties elsewhere so who can say.

Nordstrom ditched Louisville and two locations in Cincinnati claiming they didnt want to enter this market. Leaving a hole in downtown Cincinnati and us confused while opening a store in Columbus Ohio (Easton). They arent that great of a store anyways screw them.

Simon is crazy good at what they do, and that is why Indiana has the malls it has, I think 90% of shopping in Indiana is Simon induced. I would probably mind them putting MSM out of business as parts of the Shelbyville Rd. area look a little distressed like 60's/70's commercial corridors do best, we dont need another Bashford Manor area :). I would however like a mall that is TRULY upscale and not an old dog trying to learn new tricks ya know. I love the location of Middletown Station for a upscale mall, though. That area could boom. I agree though, it wouldnt eb ahrd to get some foot traffic at a new mall development in Louisville, dont we have an ordinance banning that sort of thing now though? We really dont have suburban counties poised for such a risky development just yet. I also agree that ACTUALLY making one of the malls upscale instead of the awkward tenant mix would be great, but the law, leases and money probably keep that from occuring the way we'd like it to.

When you describe the other cities with such developments, I go back to the question of the ordinance that prohibits such construction. When you mention most of those cities, off the top of my head I believe all of those cities with the hot new retail are new construction. Many stores do like a facility that was made for them. We need to cease with the anti development nimby crap and get this show on the road!

Our market according to General Growth (their numbers are quite off). I am thinking the East End Bridge will bump up the demographics significantly, but it looks like these high end department stores like to locate in Trade Areas of 700,000 (just look at the demographics of some of their other mall properties) plus where the average income is above 75k. Somehow (I really dont think their numbers are right) we fall below this threshold:

http://www.mallstmatthews.com/Biz/Leasing/

Forever 21 is for the upscale teen slut, a Charlotte Russe alternative, I wouldnt neccesarily call it trashy, but at the same time definatly not retail-tastic material. HAH I remember walking by the coming soon Kay Jewelers thing and being very puzzled lol, but hey whatever floats their boat. Yeah they really arent churning out their best here.

Haha, that picture kinda makes me realize what a shame it is that, that mall isnt something more. Some of the renovated areas look pretty nice, too nice for some of the things it houses. It is too bad Lord And Taylor pulled out so soon. Lord and Taylor was like any other department store to me, but it did have name recognition, it filled a void.

Anyways yeah that site seems very outdated. And pretty soon if not already Fayette Mall has passed up St. Matthews, which is a little disheartening. Even with the malls combined they have duplicate stores and vacancies, boo. I still ahve faith that slowly but surely General Growth will do their job, but it may not be possible to bring all the upscale together like I said, without a entirely new facility. The development of the area around oxmoor could have something to do with the future as well. It just sucks that things must move at the speed of turtle sometimes, I am only young once.

Also about that last sentence, I dont think St. Matthews is the most efficient location to serve all of the affluent of Louisville anymore. The bar for being affluent in Louisville has become more and more high each year. Hell, each quarter.

Hey! A really small small smaaaalll preview of our new plate. I was curious and this is the only picture I could find. I am sure they will be out by the millions very soon.

http://kvis-kytc.state.ky.us/KyRenewWeb/IS?ARC=images/img.jar&IMG=License_Plates/Plate_Detail/KYStandard2005.jpg&TYP=JPG

hmmm ^^Nothin "friendly" about it. I LIKE.

Now, why the hell does everyone here feel we need a Nordstrom in this city so badly? I don't think that getting a Nordstrom in MSM is suddenly going to fill this demand for high class retail.
If we're going to even get a Nordstrom, I'd say shoot for a new complex, as mentioned before, they like it new and fresh. Nordstrom sounds like the type that would raise an eyebrow of interest in the event that somone develops a large enough area of downtown for a reatail complex. More than likely, new highclass shopping will spurr around richer neighborhoods closer to the snyder though, like around lakeforest.

The new Indy possiblilities are just in talks; however, one of my best friends is the managing lease accountant for all of Simon and keeps me informed of what's in the pipeline...I knew of H&M a year ago. Anyway, look for Neimen Marcus to probably go into Casleton. They have been wanting to come into the Indy market for a while.

I also think that you all aren't giving Greenwood credit. It is the second highest-sales mall in central Indiana behind Casleton. There are some very nice suburban areas on the southside of Indy, it is just that all of the glory goes to Hamilton County. Anyway, Pottery Barn has been looking at a second location in Indy and there is speculation that Greenwood would be ideal (Circel Centre is also an option). With all of the downtown housing, once Simon builds there new tower and vacates the 4th floor of Circle Centre, they are looking for a home store to fill the spot (Crate & Barrel, Pottery Barn).

http://www.generalgrowth.com/content/live/data/snapshot/Mall%20St.%20Matthews%20TA&Rings%20Demographic%20Quick%20Facts%20Report.pdf

Here is the adobe file of the demographic information prepared by General Growth earlier this year. It shows that the trade area of MSM is about 500k and that the income of a 7 mile radius around the mall is over 70k a year...plus the area is growing in both population and affluence in their 2009 projections.

And about the new plates, they look AWESOME. I have seen 3 of them driving around town already and they are much better than the current plate. From far away I thought it was a Connecticut plate, but then when I got close I saw it was the new Kentucky plate. I only wish Indiana could get rid of it's horrible green plate.

I think that a new mall would be ideal for the area... I mean even look at San Antonio as an example...Their new La Cantera Shops are creating a pretty upscale mall not that far from their other upscale mall Northstar(I think). It could most likely work... Im really suprised that Hurstbourne never got a mall I mean hell it has everything else..Middletown Station would be an ideal location though(SIMON :) )....im probably dreaming.... Also what about Blankenbaker PKWY would that be an alternative.. hell I dunno.. I would just like them to get rid of Payless and Dawahares and add some nice new stores not found in any of our other malls...I can probably see Ann Taylor opening in MSM soon even though it has a store 1/2 mile in Oxmoor and 5 miles away in the Summit..LOL.. Typicle dont you all think.

That new plate though looks really nice..

And for Louisvillians to be hoping for a new mall is kinda....well, odd to me. One of the things we in Louisville pride ourselves on is our history, is our ability to reuse what we once had. It is awesome to me that we have kept MSM alive and reinvented it so many times since it was built in the early 60's. Most cities around the US would have abandoned MSM and just built farther and farther out...which is what you all are wanting to see happen.

Well, not me. I have absolutely no desire to see them build a new mall in this city when we have 2 perfectly good malls that just need to have some new stores added to them. I have a feeling that as time goes on we will see MSM and Oxmoor be malls we can be more than happy to shop at. Mall St Matthews has tons of new stores slated to open and has some space to grow, and Oxmoor's leasing manager has told me on several occasions that we need to keep our eyes peeled for new stores to begin construction later this quarter and the fourth quarter.

JTS LOU-

I think another could work for you all. INdy has Keystone and Casleton very near each other and Simon's newest, Clay Terrace (open-air) is located on 146th St inCarmel.

cwilson, they're building an Easton clone called Jeffersonville Town Center on 65 in Clarksville/Jeffersonville and MSM and Oxmoor and located directly next to one another.

I dunno, I just do not think Louisville needs anymore more mall space right now. We're just not big enough I don't think.

http://www.jeffersonvilletowncenter.com/

The Shops @ Valhalla (EXAMPLE THAT I HAVE MADE UP)
(to be located on Shelbyville Rd. in Middletown)
(just an Example of what it could be)

THIS COULD ALSO BE AN EXAMPLE OF STORES WE WANT AT MSM & OXMOOR

*not found elsewhere in Louisville Market

*A|X Armani Exchange
abercrombie
Abercrombie & Fitch
Aerosoles
Aldo Shoes
Ann Taylor
Ann Taylor Loft
*Anthropologie
*Apple Computer
*April Cornell
Aveda Lifestyle Store
Banana Republic
Bath & Body Works
bebe
*bebe sport
*Boss
Bostonian
Brooks Brothers
Brookstone
Bombay Company
*Burberry
Cache
California Pizza Kitchen
Chick-Fil-A
Cingular Wireless
*Club Libby Lu
Coach Store
Coldwater Creek
*Crabtree & Evelynn
*Crate & Barrel
DILLARDS
*Easy Spirit
Eddie Bauer
Express
Express Men
Finish Line
Gap
Gap Kids
Godiva Chocaolatier
Great Steak & Potato Company
Gymboree
Guess?
Harold's
*H&M
Hollister & Company
*J.Crew
J.Jill
Kate Spade
*L'Occitane
Lenscrafters
*Louis Vuitton
*Lucky Brand Jeans
*Marmi
*McCormick & Schmick's
Mortons Steakhouse
*NEIMAN MARCUS
Nine West
*NORDSTROM
*Oakley
Pacific Sunwear
Pottery Barn
Pottery Barn Kids
*Puma
*Restoration Hardwear
*Sephora
Sharper Image
Starbucks
*Steve Madden
Subway
Talbots
*Talbots Kids
Teavana
The Body Shop
The Childrens Place
The Limited
The Limited, too
*Tiffany & Co.
*Tommy Bahama
*Urban Outfitters
Verizon Wireless
Watch World
Water, Water Everywhere
White House|Black Market
Williams & Sonoma
*Williams & Sonoma Home
*Z Gallerie


PLUS 3 more food court eateries, 2 more restaurants and 25 more speciality shops including shoe stores ect..

ADD SOME IF I DIDNT MENTION THEM.

http://www.jeffersonvilletowncenter.com/

Is that picture on the main page of that website really Jeffersonville?

The new Kentucky plate looks a TON better than the old cartoonish one. Like you said, only if Indiana could get a new plate.

Indiana's plates are terrible. I think those pictures are of random european cities lol. Also I doubt Jeffersonville TC will end up anything close to Easton in layout (From what can see) or tenant mix, probably more like Hamburg Pavilion in Lexington (the tenants anyways). Possibly like Clay Terrace in Carmel, that is actually what the elevations remind me of.

I really dont think sooo.. but mabye what they want the atmosphere of the Jeffersonville Town Center to feel like.

Simon is crazy good at what they do, and that is why Indiana has the malls it has, I think 90% of shopping in Indiana is Simon induced.

I would have to disagree with that statement. While it certainly helps that Simon is HQ'd here, a store is not going to locate here unless they are going to make a profit by locating here. If Simon had that much of a pull, Indy would have a lot more upscale stores than we do and Washington and Lafayette malls wouldnt be half empty.

Call me sick and twisted but I kinda like J-mall... Isn't all that great, kinda eh with store selection but I just kinda like it for some reason. And it is out around where there is starting to be a pick up in growth, what with Deluxe 16 and all.(THOSE SEATS ARE AMAZING FOR A MOVIE THEATRE*melt*) Just thought I'd give it up for J-mall since we're on the mall topic. :P

And for Louisvillians to be hoping for a new mall is kinda....well, odd to me. One of the things we in Louisville pride ourselves on is our history, is our ability to reuse what we once had. It is awesome to me that we have kept MSM alive and reinvented it so many times since it was built in the early 60's. Most cities around the US would have abandoned MSM and just built farther and farther out...which is what you all are wanting to see happen.


Agreed, which is why I would rather not see new highclass retail in middletown but downtown. Course, I could also kinda care less about "highclass retail" seeing as I wouldn't shop there, nore do I think much of the people that do shop in that scene. The only good that can come out of it is more money for downtown and the state, which is what it's all about, right?

Indiana's plates are terrible. I think those pictures are of random european cities lol. Also I doubt Jeffersonville TC will end up anything close to Easton in layout (From what can see) or tenant mix, probably more like Hamburg Pavilion in Lexington (the tenants anyways). Possibly like Clay Terrace in Carmel, that is actually what the elevations remind me of.

Jeffersonville TC was designed by the same firm that designed Easton, and is a mixture of residential, office, and mall space, just like Easton. The "town center" portion of it really looks like an exact clone of the one in Easton...now do I know what stores they are adding? no idea, but I bet that it'll not be a bad mall and have some unique stuff to the area.

I really think that the tenants wont be that bad and will be better than Hamburg Pavillion, this is a growing market and somebody is seeing so and I know If I lived in North Louisville(Clark-Floyd counties) I wouldnt want to drive the extra 15 miles if I could have it 2-3 miles away on Lewis-Clark/Vetrans PKWY.

I am not trying to be rude, but to be realistic (after all I dont live in Beverly Hills myself), but Southern Indiana, most of it isnt that nice. There are the big fancy subdivisions here and there, but yeah not a big high end area. LOL Hamburg Pavilion has express and shit, I have no idea what it will have, no one does, but to say it looks anything like Easton is a little rediculous, have you guys seen that aerial? C'mon lets not exaggerate. At best, Clay Terrace-esque, hopefully you will prove me wrong. Actually hopefully you wont, I hate Southern Indiana, im a kentucky boy :)

Honestly, have you ever even been to Easton? I've been there more times than I care to count and if you actually looked at the plans of this center (which is being designed by the same firm who created Easton, so I do not understand exactly how it is ridiculous that they will be quite similar in looks and layout) you will notice many of the same planning elements...such as a center square to host ice skating, a Christmas tree, outdoor movies, et cetera.

Now, Easton has 2 "main" districts, but Easton is also a larger project. And the elevations for JTC, well, look pretty luch the same as Easton...and imagine that! BECAUSE THEY'RE THE SAME ARCHITECTS. JTC will have several hotels and an office plaza...blah blah blah. You showed your bias with the "I hate Indiana" bit...and when you have to start a sentance with "I'm not trying to be rude..." you're going to be rude.

Honestly,Southern Indiana has a lot of good qualities, and I see it as "North Louisville". Heck If you like the suburbs and work downtown right now So. Indiana would be a better choice imo than say J-town or Fern Creek. The main reason for this is that new suburban development up north is a lot closer than to the south and south east, house prices are still reasonable, and will skyrocket once all the new retail is put into place. I've looked at the Town Center and I think it will be a great addition to the area. The only thing I fear would be that So. Indiana will be like Northern Kentucky was to Cincy and drain the life out of downtown. However, as long as downtown keeps going as it has then I don't see that happening.

I have been to Easton plenty, it doesnt have that much parking, it has a grand indoor component and a much larger than one strip outdoor component. The site makes it look more like Clay Terrace. I am not trying to offend you in the least bit, but moreso be realistic. Seriously the aerial layout has a much smaller footprint than Easton and reminds me of the preliminary outlines of Hamburg or Clay Terrace. It is small and in an area not very prime for that large of a facility. I showed my bias yeah, because Southern Indiana is well, nothing special, and I said so. I have to start a sentence with I am not trying to be rude because people always expect the worst out of people. Again REALISTICALLY Southern Indiana just isnt sprung for any sort of mixed use to the scale of Easton.

Okay. I'm going to have to break this down.

JTC is a 4 phase project and we are discussing phase 1, or the "town center" part of the project. I realize that phase 1 of the project is 800k square feet, which is about half the space of Easton Town Center with approx. 1.5 million square feet. (all of which isn't even retail, as Easton also has several hotels and offices to get to 1.5 mil) Follow? Good.

Now, to put 800k into perspective, that is larger than Greentree Mall, and only 300k square feet smaller than MSM. To me, that is not a "small" footprint, and especially for only PHASE ONE of a project that will have 1.3 million square feet when all 4 phase are complete. Still with me? GREAT!

Phase 1 will have space for approx 55 apparel stores, 15 home stores (that includes furnishings, electronices, blah blah), 20 restaurants, a movie theatre, a department store, and a large book store. So a good 90-100. WOW. That sounds about the size of an average mall. Take a WILD guess at how many stores Easton has. I'll wait.
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130 stores. You can find them all on thier website if you'd like, but I doubt you will because I'm really not lying. Hmmmmmm, not that many more than the stores planned for phase 1 of JTC. Not to mention the stores for the "power center" of the development. I'm not trying to be rude, but to educate you on something you really were talking out of your ass about. When you look at the facts, JTC is neither small nor out of the league of Easton in size and design. SOOOOO, now that you know they are designed by the same people with roughly the same number of stores and not that much different in total size are you going to continue to tell me they are so dissimilar.

You may hate Southern Indiana all you want, but we're getting a whole slew of development that I'm sure Louisville would have liked to have captured.

Can't we all just get along.....speaking of retail, I think Louisville has a really good opprotunity to create something a bit unique with the development of Oxmoor Farm, thats a lot of land which has endless possibilities.

Oxmoor Farm is never going to be developed in our lifetimes at this rate....we've talked about Oxmoor Farm for years now, is anything ever going to become of it?

And Card04, I do not like getting into pissing wars, especially with other Louisvillians, but I'm not going to sit idly by as someone tries to feed me BALONEY. :)

:edit:

(Slaps hand to forehead) NO, REALLY? I know how to spell bologna...spelling it BALONEY is a play on the saying...jeez...figure that one out.

Now, where is the rebuttal to my presentation of facts on the JTC other than your attempt to criticize my orthography.

The matriarch of the Bullitt family still resides at Oxmoor farm. Nothing will be done to the property while she's living. However, I think she's over 100 at this point so it's only a matter of time. Upon her passing, the house will be given to the city as a museum and returned to its original state. The rest of the property will be developed in various ways. Mostly office and residential. Most of the planning for this site has already been completed. Therefore, when the time comes this development will move forward rather quickly.

..... Well she's lived a long and prosperous life. God must be ready for her at this point.
My honest sentiments go out to the family.

Now God is ready for some offices and housing in Oxmoor Farm. ^_^
No more would we need to be self conscious of the big soybean fields in the middle of everything, worried about all the out-of-towners who say "That's just like Kentucky to have farms in a city"
Hah, I actually found it pretty nice sometimes from the highway. Can't imagine in my head anything but farmland there, but alas, it's got to go.

Wouldn't it be really cool if the Bullitt Farm was turned into a huge park?? Do we really need more development along Hurstbourne and Shelbyville?? Just think how insane those roads will be when there are even more houses and offices!! My vote is for a new park to go along with our new ring of parks! Screw more development! Does anyone know how many acres will be developed??

That is way too much desirable land to make it all a park, but, taking a huge chunk of it and the rest res and offices could be a good compromise.

I actually kinda like the farm, gives you a feeling of "the good ole days", but like you said the land is way to valuable to let it stay as it is. I just hope the city is smart about it, I'd hate to see something cheezy and over done, like....OFFICE PARKS, now residential I don't mind as long as it's a tastefully designed development. I would really like to see some sort og park, perhaps around the house as part of the museum.

^^ Excellent.
I am worried that the museum will get drowned by office parks and be somthing on the side of a subdivision country club because the state said they had to leave it there. It could be a nice little piece of history in the middle of otherwise brand new development.
I REALLY don't want a big fat ass office park though. That's just tons more space to compete with downtown.

Thought this was pretty cool. Out of the CJ:

OvernightPrints.com, a printing company that promises overnight delivery of postcards, business cards and other orders, is moving from California to Louisville, adding 200 jobs in the city's West End.

The company is spending about $11.5 million to buy, renovate and equip a 100,000-square-foot building at 2929 Magazine St., a warehouse that's been vacant about five years.

HAHAH This sure is cute : http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=4594.msg44582#msg44582

Anyways, that is great news about the jobs and renovation in the west end, hopefully it will spread as there really needs to be more of a balance than there is currently.

As far as that property, whatever it is has to be more attractive than it is now. Sorry I just never really found crops all that attractive in the off seasons.

LouisvilleJake, sorry I got you razzed with the spelling of Bologna, I was just joking because I really had nothing of substance to say. I really dont feel like arguing about a lifestyle center, so we will just have to wait and see. All I am saying is from the two websites and the aerials and the elevations they really dont look much alike. Yet the streetscape thing will have the same flair.

And I apologize for getting worked up. But all I am saying is that they are the same size, same architects and will be pretty damned similar.

Works for me ;).

By the way I saw that someone had said that the new Target was going to be a Super Target, is that for sure. I could also see a World Market over there, which would be great to have in the metro, without the fortress of wine which makes you feel like you are doing something dirty.

I think the new Target is a SuperTarget...and there is a World Market on Shelbyville Road near MSM. But I think it would also fit in with the new development in Clarksville, but I have not heard their name being kicked around over there.

HAHAH This sure is cute : http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/ind...g44582#msg44582

BWAHAHA They are comparing Louisville and Dayton as the same and calling Lexinton another nice small city, basically stating that Louisville Dayton and Lexington are all on the same plain.
Natti natives are really full of their city. :sleepy:


BTW The old printing building thats being renovated is on the same street near a new condo project for the elderly, which looks like it will be pretty nice. West end has hope yet. ;)

I knew about the World Market, but Louisville's liquor laws have the wine selection locked in a tiny room in the front of the store, unlike most of the other ones that have an expansive selection in a less 'liquor store' environment. Indiana, from what I have seen, has full line liquor in grocery aisles, so that would probably spawn a world market like I have seen in other places.

And I will agree that Cincinnatians have a fun vision of what Louisville and Kentucky is, thats why I thought it was a funny thread. Oh well whatever, most Louisvillians I know think Cincinnati is a pit from hell, so I guess it goes both ways.

I think the West End will not be what it is now, in five years. If that makes any sense. The city will have more funds to spread out over the area and hopefully more simple retail for the area will pop up along with people who renovate older houses which leads the surrounding population to take more pride in their own homes. The west end is not horribly off, there is definately hope.

Construction of the Jeffersonville Town Center will begin Thursday, Aug. 11, at 11 a.m.

The 153-acre center will be home to a 10-screen movie theater, restaurants, retailers and offices.

Leasing commitments are in place for 35,000 square feet of restaurant space, and another 25,000 square feet of restaurant space is nearing final commitment, according to a news release.

Negotiations are under way with two potential department store tenants, the release said.

The movie theater and first phase of restaurants are scheduled to open in summer 2006, and the majority of the center will be finished by mid-2007.



And about our West End.....in comparison to others cities "economically depressed" areas, ours is really not that bad and has a good chance of reviving itself in many regards. I just hope the residents will take this opportunity to fix their community.

In regards to the west end: What needs to be promoted is pride in curb appeal and making with what you have, because you can't simply uproot all these people and their homes and move in higher income residents as a means of "revitalization". It's going to be tougher than starting from scratch, but if people can be happy about where they live, then general attitude in how people percieve their own neighborhood will change, not to mention how others see the area, and that in turn would make it a much more desirable and positive area for new development.

I dunno if that's true, but it made sense when I typed it.

Well, I am totally in opposition of having people destroy homes for high wealth condo's etc. However if things enter the market, as far as new stores, maybe new or renovated park lands and what has already been happening as some new well to do west end natives come back and renovate the houses etc. This will of course cause existing homeowners property values to raise signigicantly, which overnight will make these people alot more wealthy than they started out, property is one of if not the best way to make money, or move a step up. Like Jake said, compared to other cities, the west end is not that terrible, and even has some areas of large homes in great condition.

Construction of the Jeffersonville Town Center will begin Thursday, Aug. 11, at 11 a.m.

The 153-acre center will be home to a 10-screen movie theater, restaurants, retailers and offices.

Leasing commitments are in place for 35,000 square feet of restaurant space, and another 25,000 square feet of restaurant space is nearing final commitment, according to a news release.

Negotiations are under way with two potential department store tenants, the release said.

The movie theater and first phase of restaurants are scheduled to open in summer 2006, and the majority of the center will be finished by mid-2007.



And about our West End.....in comparison to others cities "economically depressed" areas, ours is really not that bad and has a good chance of reviving itself in many regards. I just hope the residents will take this opportunity to fix their community.


Jake, dont you think this will destroy greentree mall and the greentree 10 cinemas? It has to, I mean Louisville doesnt even have this much retail compteting with its self in such a small area, and we all know eastern Louisville has better demographics.

Also, you guys who say S. Indiana is crap really dont know your stuff very well. Demographically, this area ALONE is probably similar to some of the larger Indiana metros like S. Bend-Mishawaka---and thats not including anything in Louisville. Not to mention they have a major through interstate with at least a dozen exits plus a semi-loop beltway that will be completed in 20 years. Sure, the population is not quite as high as South Bend (alone), but there are no huge areas of inner city poverty there like SB.

Sure there are some run down commercial areas, but nothing too bad. The area is mostly middle class on average, but in the last 20 years it has been trending toward more upper middle class and upper class development. And if you havent driven Greentree Blvd, Eastern Blvd, and Blackiston Mill, the area is BOOMING with Latinos.

It IS a viable suburb with shorter commutes and soon to have better retail than the popular Fern Creek-Mt Washington-Okolona-Hillview-Shep corridor in KY (south suburban corridor).

With this in mind, shall I suggest perhaps a forum meet sometime to look at downtown and S Indiana? I would be willing to drive. I was thinking this Friday or Saturday would work for me in the morning around 9 am. Any takers?

Gych, Greentree 10 will close, there are no doubts about it. I worry about the abandonned buildings that are popping up around Greentree Mall as well....such as Greentree 10, the old Greentree 4, the REALLY old Damons restaurant and such. And about the future of Greentree Mall, I think it all depends on if JTC get many of the same stores as Greentree or if they get stores that Greentree could not capture. Greentree has a solid base with 3 anchors that do incredibly well (I worked at JCP in high school and our store was always 1 or 2 in our district) and some decent mall stores....nothing special, but not a total hole either. Greentree management needs to be proactive and get some stuff done before 2007 if they want to stay competitive with JTC

But my sincere hope is that with BassPro right across the street that will help Greentree Boulevard. Maybe we can fill in the old Damons with a new restaurant, although I wonder about what to do with an old theatre and the soon to be vacated Target (which is owned by Greentree Mall technically) Maybe Circuit city will remodel and take some of the space (however doubtful) since they are about to compete with Best Buy, they need to do SOMETHING if they are going to survive at all.

And I've tried to send you a message on here before Gych about meeting up and getting lunch and driving around town, but it says you do not receive PM's....but I'd be up for touring a bit.

I am free Friday morning, I am always for seeing/learning new things. Private me if you guys do end up getting together.

Well then at least two is enough...if more want to come you are welcome. I say we meet Friday at 10 am in the parking lot of Mcdonalds on Second and Broadway. I will be parked in a 01 black Honda accord in the corner nearest Gray's books (northeast corner of the lot). If you want my number, email me at ppassafi@hotmail.com. Also, I ask that you bring your digital cameras so we can show all these other forumers and regional cities "inside the ville."

I'm game

Geez, wish I could attend, but early rehearsals blow up my mornings from 10-2. >_<
Hah, GET SOME GOOD PICTURES. I'm sick of all this crap some people have put on here and then everyone counts Louisville out. I have been tryin to walk around before rehearsals to get some good shots, but lately my attempts are falling through for lack of time.

I think the only way to possibly fill all these horrib vacant buildings is to get more residents in a denser area in So IN, because after JTC is up and running, if not competitive enough, we could have another bashford manor on our hands. There needs to be more people to fill all this retail space, and suburban Louisvillians aren't gonna make the trek often enough to hold both complexes together.
I heard some happy go lucky Indiana official say that So IN is able to support plenty more retail and the demand is high, but It's getting to look a bit iffy at this point to me.

damn things move slow around here. Oh, and anyone notice the corner of fourth and chestnut is now fenced up with a bulldozer where they tore down that bldg and replaced it with grass?

One year after demolition, no development

10:34 AM EDT on Wednesday, August 10, 2005





It's one of the city's most high-profile blocks. Across from Slugger Field, it sits today, overgrown with weeds and a lot of dirt, nearly a year after a developer won approval to tear down the historic Brinly Hardy Warehouse, one of the city's original pre-Civil War structures.


The city determined the buildings, as they were, couldn't be saved. The Fleur de Lis Group was to build condominiums on the site. Developer Henry Potter said he was ready to start building right after Brinly Hardy was torn down. Nearly one year later, what's the delay?


“The price of steel went up,” he says. “It went up 100 percent.”


Preservationists are still fuming over the loss of the Brinly Hardy building.

“Now it’s growing up in weeds. Obviously, there wasn't an emergency to get it torn down or any rush, because they haven't done anything,” says Jim Segrest.


The pressure's on to get started and Potter now believes he can do it in the next 30 days. There's a new Marriott hotel getting ready to open on one side of the empty lot and new condo complex on the other.


As part of the compromise to get demolition, Potter will still display the original facade of the historic warehouse, with the Briny Hardy sign inside his new project.


“There's been a real interest from young and old, working and retired, who would like to live downtown,” he says.


Today those preservationists charged that the real rush for the demolition can be tied to the last year’s National Trust for Historic Preservation convention, which has held in Louisville. They claim the developers wanted the building gone before the preservationists arrived in town, potentially stirring up an outcry.


Potter told us the timing of the demolition, which occurred shortly before the convention, was not tied to that meeting.

I had been wondering what was going on with this project because it has been planned for so long, but I notice that they're never doing much on the lot.
I hope this get's a move on, the complex looks nice.
Is the mentioned Mariott the residence inn? I hadn't realized it was so close to done.

I was really starting to get annoyed and worried with the old Brinly Hardy site. I mean, they demolished those buildings a year ago and we were all told they were going to start construction immediately. They really need to get their asses in gear and start this project.

And they have a fence and bulldozer at Fourth and Chestnut? WOOT WOOT. That sounds like good news...now if only I knew what the hell was going on there...

Some awesome news for downtown....

Bold addition planned for skyline, art scene
Louisville developers envision multiuse tower next to Ali Center

By Sheldon S. Shafer
sshafer@courier-journal.com
The Courier-Journal



A tower, possibly with 26 floors or more, on Louisville's riverfront designed by one of the world's leading architectural companies.

A modern art museum big enough to hold seven basketball courts that would be host to traveling exhibits -- and possibly some from the crowded Speed Art Museum.

An elevated promenade linking museums to the tower's west with the Belvedere and Waterfront Park to the east.

It's all part of a $70 million project that three Louisville investors plan to build next to the Muhammad Ali Center.

Steve Poe, co-developer of the Louisville Downtown Marriott hotel, is partnering with investors Steve Wilson and his wife, Laura Lee Brown, contemporary art collectors, to launch Museum Plaza. It would be the first major notch in the city's skyline since the 35-story Aegon Center, Kentucky's tallest building, opened in 1993.

"There is a real opportunity to connect Third to Ninth Street and making Main an awesome arts corridor," Poe said.

The three have hired the firm of renowned Dutch architect Rem Koolhaas to create a "contemporary and innovative" design that Wilson expects to be "an icon for the city" when it is completed in about 2½ years.

But they have a deadline to meet first.

Mayor Jerry Abramson has promised the partners exclusive rights until Dec. 31 to develop the site bounded by River Road, Seventh and Washington streets.

They have until then to present to the city a detailed proposal that includes complete preliminary engineering, architectural, program, market and financial assessments, according to a letter from Abramson outlining the agreement.

The building site is on the western half of the 2.2-acre lot that the Parking Authority of River City bought in 2001 for $4.4 million, along with several old Main Street buildings.

It's the same site that used to house the old Kingfish Restaurant and where Vencor Inc. once planned a $60 million corporate tower -- before the company declared bankruptcy six years ago.

Wilson said the partners hope to buy or lease the site for little or no money. He plans to seek state and metro government help, primarily to help pay for public amenities, such as parking, open space or the proposed promenade.

Abramson said the city is willing to discuss those options, but he made no financial promises.

"These are individuals who have a strong belief in the community and have made large financial commitments to it in the past," said Abramson, who called Koolhaas "one of the cutting-edge architects in the world today."

Abramson predicted that once finished, the Museum Plaza might attain recognition comparable to the Humana Building on West Main that was chosen as "the building of the 1980s" by Time magazine.

"If they say they are prepared to go forward, especially with an outstanding architectural team, I would not bet against them," he said.

The project would need numerous approvals, including the Downtown Development Review Overlay Committee's signoff on the design. The Louisville Metro Council would have to approve any taxpayer funding.

Design challenges
Koolhaas' New York City office would oversee the design, led by Joshua Prince-Ramus, an Office for Metropolitan Architecture partner who would be the principal designer. Prince-Ramus said the company is intrigued about designing a tower in such a constrained site.

The property abuts Interstate 64, with its constant traffic noise, is in the flood plain and is adjacent to the Ali Center, which is still under construction.

The development poses another major design challenge because it would have diverse uses -- it would be a modern art museum that also contains offices, condominiums and probably a farmers market.

"For us, constraints are what drive a project," Prince-Ramus, 36, said yesterday in a phone interview.

Louisville's size is a plus in helping create a great building, he said.

"The most interesting projects do not happen in places like L.A. and New York," he said, because there are "too many opinions and too much politics."

Prince-Ramus and others from OMA will be in Louisville in September to meet with community officials and representatives of the Ali Center as they officially begin their design work.

Downtown gallery
The idea for the project came through Wilson's work as a director of the Speed Art Museum.

As the Speed looked to expand or move -- perhaps downtown -- Wilson visited museums in 10 countries, exploring their architecture.

Although the Speed eventually opted to expand at its Belknap Campus location, Wilson and his wife decided to pursue the idea to develop a major downtown gallery for contemporary art as part of a larger mixed-use project.

Poe said Wilson and Brown asked him early this year to join the development effort, to help see if their plans made economic sense.

The vision for Museum Plaza includes a lower-level garage with parking for about 350 vehicles, possibly linked to the Ali Center garage. It also includes 30,000 to 40,000 square feet of gallery and exhibit space for traveling contemporary- or modern-art exhibits, Wilson said.

Wilson said he has discussed with Speed officials displaying their contemporary art at Museum Plaza, since the Speed has room to exhibit only a fraction of its collection.

Speed Executive Director Peter Morrin said the Speed "will certainly collaborate in any way we can and would consider" exhibiting its collection there.

Poe said the tower also is expected to have eight to 10 floors of office space.

"We have had talks with a couple of interested tenants," Poe said, although he wouldn't elaborate. "It could become a corporate headquarters."

Steve Higdon, president of Greater Louisville Inc., the metro chamber of commerce, said the Museum Plaza "will be a much-needed addition" downtown, where upscale office space is "virtually full."

Poe said the building likely would have at least 10 floors of condominiums, 80 to 90 in all, that might sell for $400,000 to $1 million. They are considering mixing in a few lower-cost units that might be available to University of Louisville art students.

The new tower also could include some lower-level commercial space, potentially a food or farmers market, the partners said.

The developers' vision also includes connecting the museums and art venues along the north side of West Main from Ninth to Sixth streets with an elevated public promenade along or near the floodwall.

The Frazier Historical Arms Museum, the Louisville Science Center, the Kentucky Center, the Kentucky Museum of Art & Craft and the Ali Center all could be connected by the pathway.

It could link with the Riverfront Plaza/Belvedere and the stairway system near the Galt House leading to the downtown wharf and Waterfront Park.

Neighbors like idea
That plan is encouraging to the project's neighbors.

Michael J. Fox, president of the Ali Center, said he was "ecstatic with the vision and direction in which (Museum Plaza's) planning is proceeding. We see endless ways -- our constituents and the community at large -- that we will be able to benefit from this kind of mixed-use development with such a strong arts component."

Jan Phillips, who lives in a condominium at Seventh and Main near the Museum Plaza site, said she is "excited about what's going on along Main Street" and would welcome a nearby tower.

"I would support anything that brings people downtown and more people living downtown," she said.

Michele Smith and Sheila Breland, both of whom have worked at a law office near Sixth and Main for more than 20 years, seemed enthusiastic.

"I'm very big on anything that helps downtown," Breland said, adding that a food market would "be handy. There's nothing like that around here."

Smith said the tower would bring in jobs and 24-hour residents, increasing activity along the Main Street corridor. She thought the planned housing would be a hit, noting that "a lot of people seem to want to live downtown now."

Just a little something I found in the newspaper today......


By Sheldon S. Shafer
sshafer@courier-journal.com
The Courier-Journal



A tower, possibly with 26 floors or more, on Louisville's riverfront designed by one of the world's leading architectural companies.

A modern art museum big enough to hold seven basketball courts that would be host to traveling exhibits -- and possibly some from the crowded Speed Art Museum.

An elevated promenade linking museums to the tower's west with the Belvedere and Waterfront Park to the east.

It's all part of a $70 million project that three Louisville investors plan to build next to the Muhammad Ali Center.

Steve Poe, co-developer of the Louisville Downtown Marriott hotel, is partnering with investors Steve Wilson and his wife, Laura Lee Brown, contemporary art collectors, to launch Museum Plaza. It would be the first major notch in the city's skyline since the 35-story Aegon Center, Kentucky's tallest building, opened in 1993.

"There is a real opportunity to connect Third to Ninth Street and making Main an awesome arts corridor," Poe said.

The three have hired the firm of renowned Dutch architect Rem Koolhaas to create a "contemporary and innovative" design that Wilson expects to be "an icon for the city" when it is completed in about 2½ years.

But they have a deadline to meet first.

Mayor Jerry Abramson has promised the partners exclusive rights until Dec. 31 to develop the site bounded by River Road, Seventh and Washington streets.

They have until then to present to the city a detailed proposal that includes complete preliminary engineering, architectural, program, market and financial assessments, according to a letter from Abramson outlining the agreement.

The building site is on the western half of the 2.2-acre lot that the Parking Authority of River City bought in 2001 for $4.4 million, along with several old Main Street buildings.

It's the same site that used to house the old Kingfish Restaurant and where Vencor Inc. once planned a $60 million corporate tower -- before the company declared bankruptcy six years ago.

Wilson said the partners hope to buy or lease the site for little or no money. He plans to seek state and metro government help, primarily to help pay for public amenities, such as parking, open space or the proposed promenade.

Abramson said the city is willing to discuss those options, but he made no financial promises.

"These are individuals who have a strong belief in the community and have made large financial commitments to it in the past," said Abramson, who called Koolhaas "one of the cutting-edge architects in the world today."

Abramson predicted that once finished, the Museum Plaza might attain recognition comparable to the Humana Building on West Main that was chosen as "the building of the 1980s" by Time magazine.

"If they say they are prepared to go forward, especially with an outstanding architectural team, I would not bet against them," he said.

The project would need numerous approvals, including the Downtown Development Review Overlay Committee's signoff on the design. The Louisville Metro Council would have to approve any taxpayer funding.

Design challenges
Koolhaas' New York City office would oversee the design, led by Joshua Prince-Ramus, an Office for Metropolitan Architecture partner who would be the principal designer. Prince-Ramus said the company is intrigued about designing a tower in such a constrained site.

The property abuts Interstate 64, with its constant traffic noise, is in the flood plain and is adjacent to the Ali Center, which is still under construction.

The development poses another major design challenge because it would have diverse uses -- it would be a modern art museum that also contains offices, condominiums and probably a farmers market.

"For us, constraints are what drive a project," Prince-Ramus, 36, said yesterday in a phone interview.

Louisville's size is a plus in helping create a great building, he said.

"The most interesting projects do not happen in places like L.A. and New York," he said, because there are "too many opinions and too much politics."

Prince-Ramus and others from OMA will be in Louisville in September to meet with community officials and representatives of the Ali Center as they officially begin their design work.

Downtown gallery
The idea for the project came through Wilson's work as a director of the Speed Art Museum.

As the Speed looked to expand or move -- perhaps downtown -- Wilson visited museums in 10 countries, exploring their architecture.

Although the Speed eventually opted to expand at its Belknap Campus location, Wilson and his wife decided to pursue the idea to develop a major downtown gallery for contemporary art as part of a larger mixed-use project.

Poe said Wilson and Brown asked him early this year to join the development effort, to help see if their plans made economic sense.

The vision for Museum Plaza includes a lower-level garage with parking for about 350 vehicles, possibly linked to the Ali Center garage. It also includes 30,000 to 40,000 square feet of gallery and exhibit space for traveling contemporary- or modern-art exhibits, Wilson said.

Wilson said he has discussed with Speed officials displaying their contemporary art at Museum Plaza, since the Speed has room to exhibit only a fraction of its collection.

Speed Executive Director Peter Morrin said the Speed "will certainly collaborate in any way we can and would consider" exhibiting its collection there.

Poe said the tower also is expected to have eight to 10 floors of office space.

"We have had talks with a couple of interested tenants," Poe said, although he wouldn't elaborate. "It could become a corporate headquarters."

Steve Higdon, president of Greater Louisville Inc., the metro chamber of commerce, said the Museum Plaza "will be a much-needed addition" downtown, where upscale office space is "virtually full."

Poe said the building likely would have at least 10 floors of condominiums, 80 to 90 in all, that might sell for $400,000 to $1 million. They are considering mixing in a few lower-cost units that might be available to University of Louisville art students.

The new tower also could include some lower-level commercial space, potentially a food or farmers market, the partners said.

The developers' vision also includes connecting the museums and art venues along the north side of West Main from Ninth to Sixth streets with an elevated public promenade along or near the floodwall.

The Frazier Historical Arms Museum, the Louisville Science Center, the Kentucky Center, the Kentucky Museum of Art & Craft and the Ali Center all could be connected by the pathway.

It could link with the Riverfront Plaza/Belvedere and the stairway system near the Galt House leading to the downtown wharf and Waterfront Park.

Neighbors like idea
That plan is encouraging to the project's neighbors.

Michael J. Fox, president of the Ali Center, said he was "ecstatic with the vision and direction in which (Museum Plaza's) planning is proceeding. We see endless ways -- our constituents and the community at large -- that we will be able to benefit from this kind of mixed-use development with such a strong arts component."

Jan Phillips, who lives in a condominium at Seventh and Main near the Museum Plaza site, said she is "excited about what's going on along Main Street" and would welcome a nearby tower.

"I would support anything that brings people downtown and more people living downtown," she said.

Michele Smith and Sheila Breland, both of whom have worked at a law office near Sixth and Main for more than 20 years, seemed enthusiastic.

"I'm very big on anything that helps downtown," Breland said, adding that a food market would "be handy. There's nothing like that around here."

Smith said the tower would bring in jobs and 24-hour residents, increasing activity along the Main Street corridor. She thought the planned housing would be a hit, noting that "a lot of people seem to want to live downtown now."

Staff writer Chris Poynter contributed to this story.

Card04, you beat me to it by about 10 seconds. damn!

A mixed use 26 story tower with an art gallery, possible business head quarters, upscale condos,lower level commercial space, designed by a the firm of one of the best known contemporary archtitects in the world, how could this development be any better?

^^^^
What?!!!!! No announcement of a Nordstrom or ANY upscale shopping. I'm fed up with the narrow thinking mentality of this city. When are they finally going to do something right?

I hope your joking.....oh and I beat you by two minutes lol

When I opened the newspaper this morning I about fell out of my chair. This is the best thing I have heard in a danmed looooooong time. I mean, the thousands of new downtown jobs an the condos are awesome too, but THIS! A new tower, designed to be a city landmark by a prestigious architectural firm, with a modern art gallery, condos, retail, and a new corporate headquarters. Wow, if this all pans out, it will be the development of the decade.

Downtown sites gain momentum

Chris Poynter
cpoynter@courier-journal.com
The Courier-Journal

The momentum for building an arena downtown appears to be gaining ground, while a site near the University of Louisville likely will be eliminated soon, those involved with the Louisville Arena Task Force said yesterday.

"I believe the task force is inclined to build the arena downtown," Billy Reed, former spokesman for the task force and the Kentucky Commerce Cabinet, told members of the Louisville Forum during their meeting yesterday.

Ron Carmicle, an arena task force member who attended yesterday's forum, acknowledged afterward that the lobbying effort for downtown is strong.

"I can't walk into any event like this without people saying it needs to be downtown," said Carmicle, although he stressed that no decision has been made.

Commerce Cabinet Secretary Jim Host, who did not attend yesterday's forum, said that Reed's comments reflected only his opinion and that no decision has been made.

"All four sites are still under consideration," Host said.

He acknowledged, however, that the site near U of L, owned by the Solae Co. and commonly called the silos site, likely will be eliminated soon.

Host is vice chairman of the task force, which must recommend to Gov. Ernie Fletcher by Oct. 1 where a new arena should be built and how it should be financed and governed. The U of L men's basketball team would be a prime tenant.

Results of a state Transportation Cabinet traffic study, which will be discussed at Monday's task force meeting, showed that the area near the silos site is not poised to handle the traffic that an arena would generate.

Reed said in an interview after yesterday's forum that his comments were a reflection of what he has observed and heard from task force members, who have been meeting since May.

Reed, who resigned his state job last month, appeared at yesterday's event as a guest panelist.

The Louisville Forum is a nonprofit, nonpartisan group that meets monthly to discuss issues of importance to the city.

The task force is considering four potential arena sites:

The Kentucky Fair & Exposition Center.

The silos site, at Interstate 65 and Eastern Parkway.

Downtown on the old Louisville Water Co. block, bounded by Second, Third and Liberty streets and Muhammad Ali Boulevard.

Downtown, at Second and Main streets, on a block that includes a Louisville Gas and Electric Co. transmission center and a Humana Inc. office building.

An arena at the fairgrounds is estimated to cost $162 million, Reed said, while a downtown arena could cost as much as $270 million.

He said the business community would have to launch "a massive lobbying effort" in Frankfort because a fairgrounds site would be cheaper.

Also speaking at yesterday's forum were David Peterson, president of Louisville Central Area, a downtown-revitalization group; H. Carlton Godsey, of Godsey Associates Architects, who has done schematics of a downtown arena; and J. Bruce Miller, a local attorney who led three failed attempts to bring a National Basketball Association team to town.

All three lobbied for a downtown arena, and Miller said the facility should be structured so that it could house an NBA team.

Reed, interrupting Miller as he spoke, said attracting a pro team is not under consideration.

"It does no good to beat this dead horse about NBA -- it's dead, it's over, move on," he said, his voice booming over a microphone in the luncheon meeting room at Vincenzo's Restaurant.

I totally agree with you, this would do big thing's for Louisville's image and be a great addition to Louisville's skyline. This would also launch this area into Louisville's art mecha. With all the arts already in this area, this would definately be the icing and the cake for this area.
We need more foward thinking projects like this in the area.

GREAT NEWS! Very cool. If this does happen, coupled with an arena, your riverfront is well on it's way to being on par with other major river cities!

Indy has White River State Park that houses three museums and a zoo right along the White River and it is awesome.

I hope this happens for you all!

Goodness Gracious

Cwilson, your nugatory drivel always has me laughing. Well done!

WOW....... Who all fell out of their chair this morning when you read the front page of the courier journal.. I mean this is the best paper in a long time soooo..many things happened today.. we are obviously about to get an arena downtown with the elimination of the other site and a new state of the "art" skyscraper that could be over 26 floors with upscale everything from office space to condos.. Keep the news com'n b/c LOUISVILLE IS BOOMIN W/ BUSINESS..

That new tower project sounds awesome. Can't wait to see a rendering.

Yea. me either.. i am expecting it to be awesome looking and something very unique to the area, the south, and even the world.

Guys great news all around. We are going to take pictures tmrw to prove to Cwilson and others we are ALREADY on par with other major river cities and his beloved Indy.

Remember, forum meet Friday (tmrw) at 10 am. Meet at Mcdonalds at 2nd and Broadway. I will be parked in a black accord near Gray's books (NE corner of lot). Bring your digital camera with lots of memory. I will do the driving, and I have at least two loft projects to show you that I bet no one on here has heard of yet.

Honestly, Louisville has hit a BOOM. The merger is paying off big time (Finally), and even with poor leadership we are adding professional jobs and upscale amenities.

Interesting stats considering Cwilson talking about Louisville both here and on SSP:

oshkeoto, i have to admit i'm not getting the point of 50% vs 1950, but i'll be the first to admit it may be the liquor.

minor update.

2000 Metro Pops.

1 New York--Northern New Jersey--Long Island CMSA 21,199,8652 (1)
2 Los Angeles--Riverside--Orange County CMSA 16,373,645 (3)
3 Chicago--Gary--Kenosha CMSA 9,157,540 (2)
4 Washington--Baltimore CMSA 7,608,070 (7)
5 San Francisco--Oakland--San Jose CMSA 7,039,362 (4)
6 Philadelphia--Wilmington--Atlantic City CMSA 6,188,463 (5)
7 Boston--Worcester--Lawrence CMSA 5,819,100 (6)
8 Detroit--Ann Arbor--Flint CMSA 5,456,428 (16)
9 Dallas--Fort Worth CMSA 5,221,801 (18)
10 Houston--Galveston--Brazoria CMSA 4,669,571 (14)
11 Atlanta MSA 4,112,198 (26)
12 Miami--Fort Lauderdale CMSA 3,876,380 (9)
13 Seattle--Tacoma--Bremerton CMSA 3,554,760 (11)
14 Phoenix--Mesa MSA 3,251,876 (22)
15 Minneapolis--St. Paul MSA 2,968,806 (15)
16 Cleveland--Akron CMSA 2,945,831 (23)
17 San Diego MSA 2,813,833 (12)
18 St. Louis MSA 2,603,607 (19)
19 Denver--Boulder--Greeley CMSA 2,581,506 (20)
20 San Juan--Caguas--Arecibo CMSA 2,450,292 (8)
21 Tampa--St. Petersburg--Clearwater MSA 2,395,997 (30)
22 Pittsburgh MSA 2,358,695 (17)
23 Portland--Salem CMSA 2,265,223 (21)
24 Cincinnati--Hamilton CMSA 1,979,202 (--)
25 Sacramento--Yolo CMSA 1,796,857 (25)
26 Kansas City MSA 1,776,062 (--)
27 Milwaukee--Racine CMSA 1,689,572 (10)
28 Orlando MSA 1,644,561 (--)
29 Indianapolis MSA 1,607,486 (--)
30 San Antonio MSA 1,592,383 (24)

1950 Metro Pops.

1 New York--Northern New Jersey--Long Island CMSA 14,018,852 (1)
2 Chicago--Gary--Kenosha CMSA 6,869,699 (2)
3 Los Angeles--Riverside--Orange County CMSA 4,819,599 (3)
4 Philadelphia--Wilmington--Atlantic City CMSA 4,071,814 (5)
5 Boston--Worcester--Lawrence CMSA 3,456,063 (6)
6 Detroit--Ann Arbor--Flint CMSA 3,421,766 (17)
7 Washington--Baltimore CMSA 2,869,488 (7)
8 San Francisco--Oakland--San Jose CMSA 2,531,314 (4)
9 Pittsburgh MSA 2,213,236 (18)
10 St. Louis MSA 1,719,288 (20)
11 Cleveland--Akron CMSA 1,465,511 (23)
12 Minneapolis--St. Paul MSA 1,151,053 (15)
13 Dallas--Fort Worth CMSA 1,136,144 (19)
14 Seattle--Tacoma--Bremerton CMSA 1,120,448 (11)
15 Buffalo--Niagara Falls MSA 1,089,230 (--)
16 Milwaukee--Racine CMSA 1,066,533 (10)
17 Cincinnati--Hamilton CMSA 1,051,605 (--)
18 Houston--Galveston--Brazoria CMSA 919,767 (14)
19 Providence--Fall River--Warwick MSA 897,500 (16)
20 Kansas City MSA 814,357 (--)
21 Atlanta MSA 726,789 (27)
22 Portland--Salem CMSA 704,829 (22)
23 New Orleans MSA 685,405 (13)
24 Dayton--Springfield MSA 630,303 (--)
25 Denver--Boulder--Greeley CMSA 612,128 (21)
26 Norfolk--Virginia Beach--Newport News MSA 601,177 (28)
27 Miami--Fort Lauderdale CMSA 579,017 (9)
28 Louisville MSA 576,900 (29)
29 San Diego MSA 556,808 (12)
30 Indianapolis MSA 551,777 (--)

2000 Core Densities

01. New York: 23 sq m - 66,834 persons/sq. mi. (26,517)
02. Chicago: 26.7 sq m - 24,318 (12,750)
03. Los Angeles: 25.4 sq m - 22,051 (7,975)
04. San Francisco: 25.4 sq m - 21,734 (16,634)
05. Philadelphia: 25.2 sq m - 17,744 (11,233)
06. Boston (& vicinity): 25.7 sq m - 16,863 (12,172)
07. Washington, DC (& vicinity): 25.1 sq m - 13,088 (9,316)
08. San Juan, PR: 26.2 sq. m 12,276 (9,279)
09. Miami, FL (and vicinity): 25.7 sq m - 10,380 (10,161)
10. Milwaukee: 25.6 sq m - 9,865 (6,214)
11. Seattle: 25.0 sq m - 9,635 (6,717)
12. San Diego: 23.8 sq m - 9,474 (3,772)
13. New Orleans: 25.4 sq m - 9,289 (2,684)
14. Houston (& vicinity): 25.3 sq m - 9,055 (3,372)
15. Minneapolis: 22.4 sq. m - 8,609 (6,971)
16. Providence: 25.4 sq. m - 8,504 (8,564)
17. Detroit: 23.8 sq. m - 8,245 (6,856)
18. Pittsburgh: 24.3 sq. m - 8,224 (6,019)
19. Dallas: 23 sq m - 7,847 (3,470)
20. St. Louis: 23.3 sq. m - 7,518 (5,623)
21. Denver: 24.5 sq m - 7,373 (3,617)
22. Portland: 23 sq m - 7,091 (3,939)
23. Phoenix: 26.3 sq m - 6,298 (2,782)
24. San Antonio 27 sq m - 6,186 (2,805)
25. Cleveland: 24.1 sq. m - 6,082 (6,167)
26. Sacramento: 25.5 sq m - 5,983 (4,182)
27. Atlanta: 24.7 sq m - 5,435 (3,161)
28. Norfolk: 25.4 sq m - 5,077 (4,363)
29. Louisville: 27.6 sq m - 5,022 (4,125)
30. Tampa: 25.8 sq m - 4,408 (2,708)

LOL are you talking about the damn, not enough historic buildings thread. Ironic coming from the land of downtown surrounded by grassy plains LOL.

JEEZ GAH!!
Christopher Columbus! I have been sitting hear with googly eyes at all the other cities getting huge towers and all we were getting was condo filler... XD I need to be slapped, NEW TOWER, MODERN ART MUSEUM AND, I particularly think that a food market would be FANTASTIC. Although aren't they wanting to do the downtown farmer's market at the Glassworks commons? I read that somewhere.
OH WELL Who cares, this is gorgeous. I simply don't know what to do with myself, but I certainly cannot go to bed.
BTW I demand that your photo's be posted asap, as I wish to know of these condos. How exciting. I think I'll fall out of my chair right about now.

Not as strong as I had hoped, but good enough...most restaurants will not building these rooms...

Council approves smoking ban

Joseph Gerth
jgerth@courier-journal.com
The Courier-Journal



The Louisville Metro Council overwhelmingly adopted a smoking ban last night that prohibits smoking in most workplaces, except in separately ventilated rooms designed to protect nonsmokers.

People will still be able to light up in most bars and in restaurants that have more than 25 percent of their sales in alcohol. They also will be able to smoke at Churchill Downs and at a handful of other businesses.

But they'll be allowed to smoke in other restaurants, offices and most other businesses only if they are in a separate smoking room.

Businesses that choose to allow smoking would have to post signs saying that smoking is permitted in the designated area.

People will have until early November to smoke freely in public. The ordinance will take effect 90 days after Mayor Jerry Abramson signs it, probably next week, said his spokesman, Matt Kamer.

The council vote was 21-5.

Two of those who voted against the ordinance were Tom Owen, D-8th District, and Tina Ward-Pugh, D-9th, staunch supporters of a ban who cast "no" votes because they believed the measure should have been stronger.

The vote ends two years of wrangling over a smoking ban that saw council members' thinking evolve slowly. When the idea was first broached, only two members said they favored it.

The ordinance generally prohibits smoking in all buildings except for dwellings, tobacco shops, government buildings, private clubs, tobacco warehouses, bars and Churchill Downs.

Smoking would be allowed in other businesses if a smoking room with a separate ventilation system is built.

Included under the ban will be everything from large downtown office towers to barbershops, from General Electric Appliance Park to a small lawn-mower repair business.

The vote came just hours after ban supporters came within a whisker of having enough support for an ordinance that would have prohibited cigarettes and other tobacco products in virtually all businesses, including bars.

"I had 13 votes" on the 26-member council, said George Melton, D-15th, who was one of the sponsors of the ban. "We just couldn't get the 14th."

Melton said he was pleased with the ordinance but he hopes the council will revisit the issue in a year and vote for a complete ban similar to one that the Lexington-Fayette Urban County Council passed more than two years ago.

Abramson, who spent the past two days calling council members asking them to support the ban and has become increasingly vocal in his support of it in recent weeks, said the vote will help to move the city forward. "I am very proud and appreciative of the council for what they did tonight," he said.

Smokers who violate the ordinance and business owners who allow them to do so could be fined up to $100 for a first offence and $500 for a third offense in a year.

People will still be able to light up in most bars and in restaurants that have more than 25 percent of their sales in alcohol.

That is good news for Bardstown road, since this is where most of its businesses are all going to fit.
Still havent decided how for or against a ban I am like what they did in Lexington, but I think this is the only way to make bans ever fly in Louisville; a very reasonable compromise. I like that we have a foot in the door if we ever do decide as a majority that a full ban should be enacted.

ANYWHO, let's not turn this into a ban debate, there is far too much interesing development, and quite frankly, I'm too excited to read eachothers big fat opinions, and that includes having to start serving out my own big fat worthless opinion.

YAY FOR MUSEUM PLAZA!

LOL are you talking about the damn, not enough historic buildings thread. Ironic coming from the land of downtown surrounded by grassy plains LOL.

looks like google did a great job of filling in those grassy plains with buildings

http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=39.770020,-86.142082&spn=0.123590,0.233854&t=k&hl=en

Aww no I didnt mean it like that lol. But Indianapolis is more of a Tampa to me than some old structured dense city. Dont take my exagerated jokes out of context dammit :)

Aww no I didnt mean it like that lol. But Indianapolis is more of a Tampa to me than some old structured dense city. Dont take my exagerated jokes out of context dammit :)

haha, its cool. Indy is actually pretty dense to the north and east of downtown. Only been to Tampa to catch a cruise, so dont really know how comparable the two cities are.

Buildings designed the Rem Koolas firm.
Museum Plaza could be nuts! :rock:

http://www.bryanboyer.com/morephotos/sea_library1.jpg
http://www.herner-netz.de/RemKoolhaas-030104/Rem_Koolhaas.jpg

However the building will look... I know its gonna be one of the most unique skyscrapers that has been built in a while.. sooo let the construction GO b/c i cant wait to see what happens in the next 3-5 yrs.. in this city.

Well, I will let LouisvilleJake fill in, but we toured much of downtown, parts of West end, as well as parts of S. Indiana today. Some things you may not know about are www.thelouisvillelofts.com and www.sohocondo.com. There are also some lofts going in an old warehouse at kentucky and Swan St (not sure of the name, but Weyland's City Properties are involved here). African Amer history museum at 18th and ali is moving along well, and looks to be finished within a year. Ali Center has a ways to go--they wont be open by November I dont believe.

21C hotel and boutique has finally picked up pace, and the rooms seemed to be getting drywall and windows. We counted only 3-4 bad looking storefronts on main street not including the "whiskey row" warehouse eyesore. Mercantile Gallery Lofts are moving nicely, and the Residence Inn is damn near completed. Staging for Fleur de Lis condos or Hub Apartments hasnt begun yet, but should within a month per Business First.

Park Place Lofts are basically finished and I think some people are already moved in. 550 Lofts on fith street look nice too. Still no signs of planned Green street or Glassworks Commons across from the existing Glassworks lofts. www.loftsofbroadway.com are looking sweet and should be ready in a month or so. Also, the YWCA project seems to not have started yet, but the city passed a law agreeing to alow Bill Weyland (City Properties) to develop it only if he makes "substantial progress" on the "Off Broadway Lofts" by 2006. He must finish the job by the end of 2007 so well see.

Clarksville definitely has a little Mexico area. I counted at least a dozen hispanic businesses within a 8-10 block area. Also, the Charlestown road, Grantline road corridor is BOOMING. It is upscale suburban, similar to Springhurst. No longer can we think of sterotypical southern Indiana by laughing at 131 or something. The demographics are there, and that is why Jeff Towne Center is going to be good and has started construction (we saw the moving bulldozers).

Yeah, Gych and I had a very enjoyable morning and early afternoon out looking at the city. I got a glimpse of a few projects I had not really known about before and had the chance to show him some of Southern Indiana.

The core CBD is looking damned good, and with just a bit more development will be nothing short of amazing. There is a ton of work going on alone on West Main, nearly every building now is being renovated or is already done. Only half a dozen buildings left to go with this Humana rehab of the 500 block.

East Main is also looking good, but you can certainly tell it is still an area in transition. I do see that area being completely gentrified soon enough though. Census 2010, downtown demographics will completely different from Census 2000.

They have now begun to put frames up for the first dwellings at Liberty Green, which was cool. With Clarksdale out of the picture Gych and I both think that the Highlands and downtown will finally grow together without that barrier.

And when they said they were starting construction on JTC yesterday, they really meant it. They are clearing the land now for JTC and I showed Gych how massive a chunk of land it actually is. The aerials do not look big on the internet, but when driving it, it is BIG! And they are not building JTC for Clarksville and Jeffresonville residents...if they were it would not end up very nice, but I also took Gych around only a tiny sliver of 265 and we found tons of estate homes and subdivisions...that is without us traipsing up to the Knobs or out into Eastern Clark Co where it is REALLY booming.

Downtown Jeffersonville was great and the industrial-ish area directly north of it's downtown is clean and well maintained. Jeffersonville is doing a lot of good things and their downtown is showing how good of a place it really is. The Quartermaster Depot is an amazing development that peoplereally need to see. It is a former Civil War weapons depot and hospital that was saved and is now a great restaurant and office center.


Anyway, we had a great time talking and seeing the city. Too bad the others that said you were interested didn't show up, eh, but there is always next time.

OOO Things sound good. I really like The Louisville Lofts. Hadn't heard about them but did see the SoHo project a while back. The SoHo website has some fantastic 360 views of their construction progress.

I'm very intrigued by comparison to springhurst. I guess I just havent been So IN in a while. Did you guys take any pictures of the area or JTC?

I feel crappy that I missed out on what sounds like an eventful and exciting tour. I overslept (I work third shift in the Pharmacy). I would definately like to go on one of these sometime. Those loft projects look great, I knew of talks, but I had never seen their websites.

Well, I will let LouisvilleJake fill in, but we toured much of downtown, parts of West end, as well as parts of S. Indiana today. Some things you may not know about are www.thelouisvillelofts.com and www.sohocondo.com. There are also some lofts going in an old warehouse at kentucky and Swan St (not sure of the name, but Weyland's City Properties are involved here). African Amer history museum at 18th and ali is moving along well, and looks to be finished within a year. Ali Center has a ways to go--they wont be open by November I dont believe.

21C hotel and boutique has finally picked up pace, and the rooms seemed to be getting drywall and windows. We counted only 3-4 bad looking storefronts on main street not including the "whiskey row" warehouse eyesore. Mercantile Gallery Lofts are moving nicely, and the Residence Inn is damn near completed. Staging for Fleur de Lis condos or Hub Apartments hasnt begun yet, but should within a month per Business First.

Park Place Lofts are basically finished and I think some people are already moved in. 550 Lofts on fith street look nice too. Still no signs of planned Green street or Glassworks Commons across from the existing Glassworks lofts. www.loftsofbroadway.com are looking sweet and should be ready in a month or so. Also, the YWCA project seems to not have started yet, but the city passed a law agreeing to alow Bill Weyland (City Properties) to develop it only if he makes "substantial progress" on the "Off Broadway Lofts" by 2006. He must finish the job by the end of 2007 so well see.

Clarksville definitely has a little Mexico area. I counted at least a dozen hispanic businesses within a 8-10 block area. Also, the Charlestown road, Grantline road corridor is BOOMING. It is upscale suburban, similar to Springhurst. No longer can we think of sterotypical southern Indiana by laughing at 131 or something. The demographics are there, and that is why Jeff Towne Center is going to be good and has started construction (we saw the moving bulldozers).

Good review guys, I had to work during the times that you guys went on your Kentuckiana venture. I will definitly agree about the Charlestown rd and Grantline rd corridor, its funny how people in the ville don't realize the income of alot of the southern indiana communities. Yes they have necks but its mostly upper class and upper middle class residents living there. If some people would just take the opportunity and drive around southern Indiana they would be amazed at the development and future "classic" suburban development. If you are out in the outskirts of New Albany you will see your classic movie theatres and suburban box stores. S.Indiana has alot more things going for it than people tend to give it credit for.

I work for Humana so I'm on East Main everyday and things seem to be picking up alot on that corridor, but oddly I haven't ventured down W Main in a while so its great to hear about that area of downtown as well. I don't know why they are moving so slow on the Ali center that makes no sense. It seems like they have been working on that thing forever. People will flock downtown when these condos are finished and like you said I look forward to the day when the highlands can be connected to downtown and have people with mixed incomes living amongst each other. That will cut down alot of cultures clashing. I'm proud the city is taking the right steps in trying to bridge the community. Maybe next time you guys can venture into Oldham and Bullitt counties, so we can get up to speed on the North and South suburban communities. Great report!!!!!

yea.. S.Indiana is no longer the Sticks or Redneckish place, it has become a place similar to eastern Louisville.. I am also exited about all the projects that are going on in the city.. its amazing to see sooo much stuff going on in the city..On Dixie Highway they are completing a GFS market and the new SW Christian Academy campus that will have 1,200 students which will be located on St.Andrews Ch.Rd. that is good for the area and some more new neighborhoods on that side of town also around St.Anthony Ch. Rd., Old 3rd Street, and Arnoldtown rd. that are priced from $250,000-$700,000..

Im still wondering about what kind of retailers will go in JTC but I guess only time will tell

Went to the Frazier Historical Arms Museum on my last day of summer (very nice, any history buff would be in heaven), and I checked out where the Museum Plaza will be located. If/when it is built (i hope its a when) and once the Ali Center is finished, that area will be CRAWLING with tourists and kids on field trips. It could become an extremely popular regional destination for visitors from around Indy, Cincy, and Nashville.
I am particularly pleased with the Historical Arms Museum because it is so awesomely unique as far as anything like it being anywhere around here in any other nearby city. Might have something a bit similar, but the number of exhibits and amazing displays from all over the world were quite fascinating, not to mention the demonstrations in dueling were a BLAST to watch!
Put that in with Slugger museum and the Ali Center, and those all together are something you can't get in any other city in the U.S.
Then you have the Science Center, Glassworks, Actors Theatre, Kentucky Arts and Crafts Museum, and hopefully the Contemporary Art Museum to help keep any convention-goer busy for days.

That is the goal of Museum Plaza, to be the keystone of all the cultural amenities along Main Street and to really make it a cultural mecca for the region

I get the idea that downtown is evolving the have two main hubs of activity, West Main Street and the 4th Street Live area. They are basically seperated by the government district that is south of Main and west of 4th Street.