in one day(14 of july) will emmigrate to Israel more than 500 jews from USA and Canada.... and more than 1800 jews from N.America will emmigrate to Israel this summer......

from 2003 came to Israel 8000 jews from USA and Canada 99% of them stayed in Israel!

North America is second USSR? we will get the same number of emmigration?:) i want it more than 1 million new citizens:)

are u jew or arab?

my great grandmother was a jewish immigrant

Where from?

in one day(14 of july) will emmigrate to Israel more than 500 jews from USA and Canada.... and more than 1800 jews from N.America will emmigrate to Israel this summer......

from 2003 came to Israel 8000 jews from USA and Canada 99% of them stayed in Israel!

North America is second USSR? we will get the same number of emmigration?:) i want it more than 1 million new citizens:)
But a million will be enough because America is good for jews to fully use their potential, that we can see in statistics.
The entire point of Israel is to help Jews and improve their life. If Jews that are already ‘living good’ want from Zionist thinking to contribute in this place for the sake of us here and the sake of the homeland – blessed they be :)

yeah we need canadian jews:))
not american:)) american jews good in USA:)

she came from russia

she came from russia
That's interesting. any thoughts of converting? :jk:

so why u are against Israel?

"great grandmother"..

marx was a jew and an anti-semite not just had a great grandmother.

watch the film called "the believer", not my personal favourite one, but it gets its point imo. ah its about a jewish nazi ;)

^ i know one from a blog and its not a hoax.. crazy people those jews

Kapo.....

More than 400 new immigrants set to take off from North America

NEW YORK - More than 400 new immigrants will leave North America Tuesday night for Israel on two specially chartered El Al flights. These are the first of eight flights of immigrants due to leave North America before the end of this year.

For the first time, one of the Tuesday flights will depart from Toronto.

According to Michael Landsberg, head of the North American aliyah desk in the Jewish Agency, a total of more than 3,000 immigrants will come to Israel from North America by the end of 2005, making this the biggest wave of immigration from that continent since 1983. Most of the immigrants have an academic education and many work in technology, he
said.

The new immigrants will be greeted on arrival at Ben-Gurion Airport by Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, Vice Premier Shimon Peres, Finance Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom and Jewish Agency Chairman Zeev Bielski.

According to an El Al spokesman, there are 184 adults and 136 children in the group, and they hail from 23 different U.S. states. One of the newcomers, a 33-year-old man, survived the 9/11 attack on the Twin Towers in New York.

good news! WELCOME TO ISRAEL
TalB when we will meet u in Ben Gurion airport as OLE HADASH?

600 jews from N.America (350 from USA and 250 from Canada)tomorrow emmigrats to Israel ...with them will emmmigrate famous doctor in USA David Berman:
http://www.bermancosmeticsurgery.com/

and also japanese who converted to judaism:)

good news! WELCOME TO ISRAEL
TalB when we will meet u in Ben Gurion airport as OLE HADASH?
I will be leaving from JFK Airport in NYC on 7/24 at 12 PM EST. Since I am a natural-born citizen of Israel, I will be allowed to walk through the gate for Israeli citizens. Actually, I have been comming to Israel almost annually, and that is b/c I have relatives there. Terrorism has never prevented me from going to Israel then, and it won't right now. Of course I return to NYC on 8/8. On a sidenote, maybe there should be a fourm meet.

but when u will make alliyah?:)

in one day(14 of july) will emmigrate to Israel more than 500 jews from USA and Canada.... and more than 1800 jews from N.America will emmigrate to Israel this summer......

from 2003 came to Israel 8000 jews from USA and Canada 99% of them stayed in Israel!

North America is second USSR? we will get the same number of emmigration?:) i want it more than 1 million new citizens:)

My best friend was one of them....

wooow really?:)) nice! say him WELCOME from our forum:)

Home at last
400 new immigrants land in Israel day after Netanya bombing attack; largest single-day migration from North America since Israel founded
By Yitzhak Benhorin and Miri Chason
BEN-GURION AIRPORT - Tuesday’s terror attack at the entrance to Netanya's Hasharon Mall did not deter North American families from moving to Israel.
Some 250 immigrants arrived in Israel Wednesday on a flight from New York and another 150 from Toronto - the largest group to make aliya from North America since the founding of the state.
The new immigrants were received by Prime Minister Ariel Sharon at special welcoming ceremony at Ben-Gurion International Airport.
However Sharon started his speech by welcoming the new immigrants in Hebrew, even though many could not understand.
“We often combine happiness with grief, “ he said. “Your arrival is a source of great happiness for us, but yesterday we were faced with a murderous act of terror that has caused us all grief.”
Jeff Rochberger from New Jersey made aliyah with his wife and five children. After landing in Israel, they drove straight to the town of Bet Shemesh near Jerusalem, where many of their friends have relocated over the past few years.
While terror exists all over the world, he said, Israel was the one place he felt safe.
Another immigrant, Shana Harris, 17, came to Israel to be with her boyfriend Roee Shemen from Herzlia, and volunteer for the army. She told Ynet that she had planned to immigrate to Israel since the age of 13.

In an ironic twist, one immigrant family, the Bermans – including four children, two dogs, two birds, a chinchilla and a gerbil - decided to make their new home in Netanya.
Dr. David Berman is a well-known plastic surgeon from Potomac, Maryland who made headlines several years ago for reattaching John Bobbitt’s severed penis several years ago.
Now, he’ll open a practice in a city that has suffered multiple terror attacks since the Oslo process began in 1993, including the infamous seder night bombing at the city’on the first night of Pesach in 2002.
Another couple, Jordan and Stella Frankel, formerly of Potomac, Maryland. He’s a high school principle, she’s a Japanese convert equally comfortable cooking cholent for Shabbat and the sushi she grew up with.
The newly religious couple will make their new home in the Gush Etzion settlement of Neve Daniel.







At a farewell ceremony on Tuesday at New York's Kennedy Airport, Israeli Ambassador to the U.S. Danny Ayalon pointed out Israel is not the only terrorist target in the world.



“There’s terrorism in New York and London also,” he said.



As the new immigrants boarded the plane, Ayalon praised their “important decision,” and said aliya is the most important thing American Jews can do to strengthen Israel.



“It’s the call of the moment,” he said.


One absorption official said the current economic state of both countries means it is an opportune time for Jews to make aliya.


"Given the explosion in U.S. housing prices in recent years, many people can sell their homes in America for record prices and buy homes at bargain prices in Israel,” he said.



2000 new immigrants a year



Together, the Nefesh B’Nefesh organization and the Jewish Agency bring approximately 2,000 new immigrants a year to Israel, most of whom receive financial support and help finding work.


The initiative, financed in part by Florida millionaire Tony Gelbart, began three years, as an attempt to bring one Jewish person on aliya for every Israeli killed in the al-Aqsa intifada

Israel welcomes new immigrants

Almost 600 people, the largest group of North American Jews to emigrate to Israel in a single day, have touched down at Tel Aviv airport.

A total of 410 flew from New York's JFK airport, while another 160 headed to Israel from Toronto.

Israel's Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, who has led calls for higher Jewish immigration to the country, met the new arrivals as they disembarked.

Almost 21,000 people emigrated to Israel during 2004.

A total of 8,535 people moved to Israel in the first six months of 2005, according to government figures.

But those figures are considerably lower than in the 1990s, when the collapse of the Soviet Union led to about 70,000 immigrants each year.

Israeli politicians favour increased immigration as a counterweight to high birth rates among Israel's million-strong Arab population as well as Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

'Where a Jew belongs'

The flights from Canada and the US were organised by a Jewish organisation, Nefesh B'Nefesh, which is committed to increasing North American immigration.

The organisation offers financial grants and administrative assistance to prospective immigrants.


Security concerns in Israel did not dissuade immigrants
It has organised four more charter flights to carry North American immigrants to Tel Aviv during the summer.

Many of those arriving in Israel said they were leaving North America because of a wish to live only among Jews.

"Life for a Jew in Israel is difficult, but pretty soon, life for a Jew outside of Israel is going to be impossible," Henry Fuerte, 33, told the Associated Press before leaving New York.

"America is a great country, as far as opportunity, but as for religious life, such as keeping kosher [dietary laws], Israel is where a Jew belongs."

As well as religious considerations, anti-Semitic incidents in the US and Canada rose by 17% in 2004, according to the Anti-Defamation League, a Jewish lobby group.

New concerns over safety in normally-tolerant North America are thought to have persuaded some families to head to Israel.

But younger immigrants like Max Berman, 14, looked forward to their new life for different reasons.

"I'm going to miss my friends, but I will be living on the beach," he said.

"And everyone is Jewish in Israel, and I think that will be cool."

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41298000/jpg/_41298553_ap_arriving203.jpg

25 of jule:345 jews from France:)

Awesome :)

But, what about 600 Ethiopian Jews come to Israel every month? did they arrived in Israel last month and this month as well?

but when u will make alliyah?:)
ZOHAR, I am not an observant Jew, so don't expect me to make an alliyah.

400 new emmigrants will come this week;
162 from ex USSR(Russia 83,Ukraine 39)

also from Ethiopia,France,Turkey,UK,S.Africa,Switzerland,Austria,Australia,Holland,USA,Canada,Uruguay,Peru,Brasil,Sweden and Columbia

ZOHAR, I am not an observant Jew, so don't expect me to make an alliyah.

i'm not observant jew too....so?

Normally, I hear that word from rabbis and other observant Jews, especially from the ultra-Orthodox.

ultra -orthodox are anti zioni .......

also ultra secularists zohar.

i'm ultra secularist and it's not true that ultra secularists are anti zioni!
if i want normal rich with all human rights country it doesn't mean i'm anti zioni.....

also ultra secularists zohar.

I am an atheist but I am an ardent zionist, too.


ZOHAR, I am not an observant Jew, so don't expect me to make an alliyah.
If you had to be an observant jew to live in Israel, I wouldn't be here. ;)

hehhe agree with Azazel!
we not need religious alliyah ...i want repatriants like from Russia:)

I am an atheist but I am an ardent zionist, too.

)

me too

Well not all ultra orthodox are anti-Zionist too.
Ultra atheist Jews in America are associated with the extreme left which is anti-Zionist.

not all ultra secular are atheists

Well not all ultra orthodox are anti-Zionist too.
Ultra atheist Jews in America are associated with the extreme left which is anti-Zionist.


of course they are.....speak more with religious people u will see.....

hehhe agree with Azazel!
we not need religious alliyah ...i want repatriants like from Russia

No, we need religious immigrants, that we can process so that they'll become normal. :colgate:

מספיק חרדים בארץ......אפילו יותר מדי....שיעזבו חצי לארה''ב:)

מספיק חרדים בארץ:)

Well from what I hear the Haredim have like ten kids a pop so you may not be in luck Zohar. Also there are a lot of Haredim who are technically anti-Zionist but are loyal to the state, they say this isn't THE Jewish state but it is a state that is made up of Jews so they are loyal to it.

Also when I hear anti-Zionist I think Neturei Karta, not all Haredim are Neturei Karta. Anti Zionist means anti-Israel and most Haredim are not anti-Israel NO??

Neturei Karta are not even Jewish, they have become a private sect of hating anything that smells of Israel.. they are so bizzare they hate hebrew as well!

The ultra-orthodox and orthodox population is mostly zionist, they are the fastest growing population in the world with around 5% a year growth, which helps us even out the palestinian 3.5% growth. Both orth's and pal's are, as expected, poor populations. But the problem with orth's is, they live very segregated and often rely
on funding from taxpayers money while many are "scholar"s etc. and cant find decent work or they find work but it cant support a 12-people family!

Well from what I hear the Haredim have like ten kids a pop so you may not be in luck Zohar. Also there are a lot of Haredim who are technically anti-Zionist but are loyal to the state, they say this isn't THE Jewish state but it is a state that is made up of Jews so they are loyal to it.

Also when I hear anti-Zionist I think Neturei Karta, not all Haredim are Neturei Karta. Anti Zionist means anti-Israel and most Haredim are not anti-Israel NO??

they created their country they lives with their laws.....

they didnt create anything, if it wasnt for secular jews fighting for them
these haredim would have been murdered to death under arab antisemitic rule

they has their education,their neighbours,their schools,only religious friends IT'S NOT ANOTHER COUNTRY?

they didnt create anything, if it wasnt for secular jews fighting for them
these haredim would have been murdered to death under arab antisemitic rule
Somebody has succeeded in brainwashing you.

Neturei Karta are not even Jewish, they have become a private sect of hating anything that smells of Israel.. they are so bizzare they hate hebrew as well!
My, my, my. What nonsense you contribute to this discussion. I am willing to accept that 'they' can trace their 'Jewishness' at least as far as you can. I am willing to step out on a ledge and say 'they' can trace their 'Jewishness' further back than you can.

Having said that, a Jewish person is a Jewish person regardless of whether they have 20 generations behind them or 20 minutes since they finished halachic conversion. But you have an amzing chutzpa to question their 'Jewishness'.

Shows your complete lack of understanding of the Jewish faith.
Out of 613 mitzvot (religous deeds or commands on a person), 72 are related to the land of Israel and can only be performed in the land of Israel.
So any jew who says he is anti-zionist, meaning he has given up on the land of Israel
and does notsee it as the home of the Jewish faith cannot be Jewish, especially if he - like neturei karta - claims to be religious.
They are a mad sect of Judaism, we have had mad or normal sects before which have branched away from Judaism (from christianit, karaim, shomronim, isiyim etc.)
The madness is how they view the rest of Judaism and how it views them - in this case - ask anybody what they think of Neturey karta and they will tell you these people are totally freakingly mad.
They are called here "Neturey Harta!" which means "Neturey bullshit!" which after seeing them hugging arafat, kadafi and other terrorists I must say is fitting description.

Shows your complete lack of understanding of the Jewish faith.
Out of 613 mitzvot (religous deeds or commands on a person), 72 are related to the land of Israel and can only be performed in the land of Israel.
So any jew who says he is anti-zionist, meaning he has given up on the land of Israel
and does notsee it as the home of the Jewish faith cannot be Jewish, especially if he - like neturei karta - claims to be religious.
They not only disapprove of Israel, but of the notion of the land of Israel as a whole and so most dont live here.
They are a mad sect of Judaism, we have had mad or normal sects before which have branched away from Judaism (from christianit, karaim, shomronim, isiyim etc.)
The madness is how they view the rest of Judaism and how it views them - in this case - ask anybody what they think of Neturey karta and they will tell you these people are totally freakingly mad.
They are called here "Neturey Harta!" which means "Neturey bullshit!" which after seeing them hugging arafat, kadafi and other terrorists I must say is fitting description.

Shows your complete lack of understanding of the Jewish faith.
Out of 613 mitzvot (religous deeds or commands on a person), 72 are related to the land of Israel and can only be performed in the land of Israel.
So any jew who says he is anti-zionist, meaning he has given up on the land of Israel
and does notsee it as the home of the Jewish faith cannot be Jewish, especially if he - like neturei karta - claims to be religious.
They not only disapprove of Israel, but of the notion of the land of Israel as a whole and so most dont live here.
They are a mad sect of Judaism, we have had mad or normal sects before which have branched away from Judaism (from christianit, karaim, shomronim, isiyim etc.)
The madness is how they view the rest of Judaism and how it views them - in this case - ask anybody what they think of Neturey karta and they will tell you these people are totally freakingly mad.
They are called here "Neturey Harta!" which means "Neturey bullshit!" which after seeing them hugging arafat, kadafi and other terrorists I must say is fitting description.

Shows your complete lack of understanding of the Jewish faith.
Out of 613 mitzvot (religous deeds or commands on a person), 72 are related to the land of Israel and can only be performed in the land of Israel.
So any jew who says he is anti-zionist, meaning he has given up on the land of Israel
and does notsee it as the home of the Jewish faith cannot be Jewish, especially if he - like neturei karta - claims to be religious.
They not only disapprove of Israel, but of the notion of the land of Israel as a whole and so most dont live here.
They are a mad sect of Judaism, we have had mad or normal sects before which have branched away from Judaism (from christianit, karaim, shomronim, isiyim etc.)
The madness is how they view the rest of Judaism and how it views them - in this case - ask anybody what they think of Neturey karta and they will tell you these people are totally freakingly mad.
They are called here "Neturey Harta!" which means "Neturey bullshit!" which after seeing them hugging arafat, kadafi and other terrorists I must say is fitting description.

oops zohar please fix this

Shows your complete lack of understanding of the Jewish faith.
Out of 613 mitzvot (religous deeds or commands on a person), 72 are related to the land of Israel and can only be performed in the land of Israel.
So any jew who says he is anti-zionist, meaning he has given up on the land of Israel
and does notsee it as the home of the Jewish faith cannot be Jewish, especially if he - like neturei karta - claims to be religious.
They not only disapprove of Israel, but of the notion of the land of Israel as a whole and so most dont live here.
They are a mad sect of Judaism, we have had mad or normal sects before which have branched away from Judaism (from christianit, karaim, shomronim, isiyim etc.)
The madness is how they view the rest of Judaism and how it views them - in this case - ask anybody what they think of Neturey karta and they will tell you these people are totally freakingly mad.
They are called here "Neturey Harta!" which means "Neturey bullshit!" which after seeing them hugging arafat, kadafi and other terrorists I must say is fitting description.
You telling me I have no understanding of Torah and Jewish faith is absurd. You have no idea with whom you are speaking. Nor do have any idea of the lack of halchic standing your own ideas have. You must be talking to your self. The people you denegrade have a very sound halachic position upon which they define their stance. So you disagree. So what. That does not make them any less Jewish. You have no idea with the greatness of Torah with whom you disagree. They have another opinion. Their opinion is LishMah. Is yours?

As for the mitzvot that are dependent on the land, please go find one of them that relates to Zionism. Of course, you cannot. Someone who gives up on Zionism is not someone who has given up on Israel and Torah.

The Gadolim in 1948 where very concerned about the leaders of Zionism. Zionism is not Torah. Torah can, according to some, work along side with Zionism to develop an Israel that is Totah-oriented. Your attacks against these people, based on their Torah beliefs, is not a good thing. They stand for a stron Klal Yisrael. Just because others disagree with them does not make them wrong. It just puts them at odds with the majority. But to call them not-Jewish is simply stupid and foolish.

The people of the Kanaim (religous extremists) to which the
Satmers and Neturei karta belong to, strive to wedge a divide in the
Jewish world, thisis why they are extreme not only in their beliefs but also extremely dangerous: they are today taken out of the entire Jewish life, they have become a mad separate sect, working to destroy the beauty and the
joy and the tolerance in Judaism and turn it into a segregated enternal cult.
To people who think these two tiny groups are in any way representative of what real Judaism is about - its like taking a rotten apple and saying it represents fruit.

I stand by what I said: In the extreme intolerant way these people have
interprate the Torah, they have excluded themselves from Judaism. That they think they are "the real true Jews" is a sad joke, they can go on speaking acting and wearing and bahaving like they are in 18th century
poland. They are more wierd and outdated than the Heimish..
and worst of all, they are openly working for the destruction of Israel
and killing of secular Jews which they see as the coming of teh Messiah..
doesnt get any more radical than that, right?

satmers hate lubavitchers, lubavitchers hate neturey karta, neturey karta hate the other two.. give me a break, these people are not Jewish even in the way they act to other hasidic groups among themselves, let alone to others.. It is said some of them were so much at war within themselves in the 19th century they had to flea poland to Israel just so that one group would not kill another..

The people of the Kanaim (religous extremists) to which the
Satmers and Neturei karta belong to, strive to wedge a divide in the
Jewish world, thisis why they are extreme not only in their beliefs but also extremely dangerous: they are today taken out of the entire Jewish life, they have become a mad separate sect, working to destroy the beauty and the
joy and the tolerance in Judaism and turn it into a segregated enternal cult.
To people who think these two tiny groups are in any way representative of what real Judaism is about - its like taking a rotten apple and saying it represents fruit.

I stand by what I said: In the extreme intolerant way these people have
interprate the Torah, they have excluded themselves from Judaism. That they think they are "the real true Jews" is a sad joke, they can go on speaking acting and wearing and bahaving like they are in 18th century
poland. They are more wierd and outdated than the Heimish..
and worst of all, they are openly working for the destruction of Israel
and killing of secular Jews which they see as the coming of teh Messiah..
doesnt get any more radical than that, right?

satmers hate lubavitchers, lubavitchers hate neturey karta, neturey karta hate the other two.. give me a break, these people are not Jewish even in the way they act to other hasidic groups among themselves, let alone to others.. It is said some of them were so much at war within themselves in the 19th century they had to flea poland to Israel just so that one group would not kill another..
At least now you have changed your story. At first these people were not Jewish. Now, it is simply a matter that you think their beliefs and actions cause problems in Klal Yisrael. You are entitled to your opinion, most likely. They are entiltled to theirs. They belief Zionism is the main distructive force in the Jewish world today. Others disagree, including you. Good. That's how things are. There is no Senhadrian. The government of Israel in no way represents Torah. The government of Israel is in many ways anti-Torah. Still, there are halchic Jews who work within the structure of the government and laws. There are other halachic Jews who will not.

I am not convinced they are a cult. They certainly did not start out that way. They had a very solid position in halachah to fight against the state and the secular government. Is it a cult? Not sure.

But glad to see you changed your position from claiming they are not Jewish to simply disagreeing with them. Being Jewish is a halachic issue only. It is not a philosophical or hashkaphic issue. Even the secular Zionists who hate Torah are Jewish.

Juidaism without Israel is nothing.

When we pray we stand towards Jerusalem.
When we speak of freedom in Passover, it is to be free in our Country.

Judaism without Israel - well, you can see what it turned into in the harsh exile..
a cult of hassidic groups that fought among themselves while being killed by locals.

To wait like they suggest for the Messiah to come and build Israel is to believe
we should have more holocausts, persecussions, anti semitism and inquisitions.

These peopel arent Jews, they have a twisted, backward, extremist, radical, non-jewsih notion of Judaism. They might as well call themselves "sheep", "umbrellas"
"mink fur hat cult" or "Yidish knights of the black robe". They arent Jewish.

Juidaism without Israel is nothing.

When we pray we stand towards Jerusalem.
When we speak of freedom in Passover, it is to be free in our Country.

Judaism without Israel - well, you can see what it turned into in the harsh exile..
a cult of hassidic groups that fought among themselves while being killed by locals.

To wait like they suggest for the Messiah to come and build Israel is to believe
we should have more holocausts, persecussions, anti semitism and inquisitions.

These peopel arent Jews, they have a twisted, backward, extremist, radical, non-jewsih notion of Judaism. They might as well call themselves "sheep", "umbrellas"
"mink fur hat cult" or "Yidish knights of the black robe". They arent Jewish.
Torah is based on halachah. If you don't believe in halachah, then why have this discussion? If you believe in halachah, then your argument is one of an Aam HaHaretz.

You can scream until you are blue in the face that they are not Jewish. But the thruth is, and the facts are, they are Jewish. Live with it.

If they can say Im not Jewish in their eyes, ten I can say the same fo them

Im secular,
Im educated
I dont wear fur hats and black robes in 40c heat

We dont need a Heimish version of pseudo-judaism, they are chokig on it themselves. they know its a dead end, they just cant accept it. Really, I would feel sorry for them if they didnt make it such a point to call for the destruction of the country their nation has dreamed of for 2000 years,
from that point on, we wouldnt cry if they disappeared tomorrow..

agree with source!
if they not recognazing my country as country i'm not recognazing them like part of my nation....

If they can say Im not Jewish in their eyes, ten I can say the same fo them

Im secular,
Im educated
I dont wear fur hats and black robes in 40c heat

We dont need a Heimish version of pseudo-judaism, they are chokig on it themselves. they know its a dead end, they just cant accept it. Really, I would feel sorry for them if they didnt make it such a point to call for the destruction of the country their nation has dreamed of for 2000 years,
from that point on, we wouldnt cry if they disappeared tomorrow..
What you say is a joke. This is not the country we have dreamed for for 2000 years. If you think it is, you misunderstand Torah and Judaism.

It is something. It is a beginning. But it is clearly not what we strived for and what we dream of and what it will be when it is what it is supposed to be.

And they do not say you are not Jewish. They believe in halachah. If you are Jewish by halachah, I do not understand how they could say otherwise. You show more hatred than they do. That is what I think. Hatred for other Jews is the worst thing. You have hatred for them. You are contributing, through hatred, to our problems, not our solutions. That is what I think. That is what I know.

If we do not recognize that the nation of Israel is more than the country of Israel and the government we have, we are mistaken. There are many ways to understand Judaism. If you only understand it through the eyes of the modern state called Israel, you are mistaken. It is A WAY. There is nothing in our heritage that says it is THE WAY.

We, as a nation, continue to try to bring our history to its intended conclusion through our country. We do the best we can. They have a different idea. Their idea is rooted in a certain perspective of Torah. I may not personally agree with it. But I accept it, as a valid way of thinking, before I accept the secular Zionist perspective. It just so happens there is a Torah perspective that accepts and agrees with the idea of the State of Israel as it is today. So I agree with that. But they are not wrong. They are just different. And we are all Jews. It hurts me to hear you guys say you think they are not Jews. That is a terrible mistake on your part. The hatred for these Jewish people is worse than anything the Arabs can do to us. If it were not for the hatred for each other, the Arabs would not be able to inflict their 'embrace of death' (as Arafat, yimach sh'mo, said) against us. We create their opportunity through our own hatred for each other. I beg you to stop hating these people.

If we do not recognize that the nation of Israel is more than the country of Israel and the government we have, we are mistaken. There are many ways to understand Judaism. If you only understand it through the eyes of the modern state called Israel, you are mistaken. It is A WAY. There is nothing in our heritage that says it is THE WAY.

We, as a nation, continue to try to bring our history to its intended conclusion through our country. We do the best we can. They have a different idea. Their idea is rooted in a certain perspective of Torah. I may not personally agree with it. But I accept it, as a valid way of thinking, before I accept the secular Zionist perspective. It just so happens there is a Torah perspective that accepts and agrees with the idea of the State of Israel as it is today. So I agree with that. But they are not wrong. They are just different. And we are all Jews. It hurts me to hear you guys say you think they are not Jews. That is a terrible mistake on your part.

You are right Neturei Karta are Jews, .... bad Jews. They are traitors. They collaborate with those who would willingly murder Jews and other innocent people. They don't care about the hopes dreams and aspirations of the vast majority of the Jewish people. They have also, ... I believe, been excommunicated by other orthodox groups. I agree people can and should disagree about the modern state of Israel, it is not synonymous with the Jewish people. It is however the best and only thing that we have right now, we need the state of Israel, without it were doomed. The debate in our society between religious and secular is healthy but when it boils down to betraying your own people, we need to speak out against this.

We have had too much "different perspectives" in Judaism in the past.

The second temple kingdom was destroyed because of internal feuds and disputes within Jews.
We dont have the luxury to split into interpretations.. if we were 100 or 200 million and if we had 5-6 countries I would say you are right, but we are a fe million with one small country. Jewish people who pray, and act for its destruction - this is unacceptable by 99 percent of world jews. We see anti-semitism rising again in europe,
now backed by fundamentalist islam.. but even before we had a country that they could blame, the europeans were racist, were killing jews, persecuting them, denying them work places, kicking tem around.
We have had enough of it. If this is their notion of Judaism - to sit and wait and be murdered around the world as a weak nation with no territory and no language and no hope.. well they are crazy and we all wont accept their notion of "autistic pseud-judaism".

also see this

http://www.israelnn.com/print.php3?what=news&id=71966

We have had too much "different perspectives" in Judaism in the past.

The second temple kingdom was destroyed because of internal feuds and disputes within Jews.
We dont have the luxury to split into interpretations.. if we were 100 or 200 million and if we had 5-6 countries I would say you are right, but we are a fe million with one small country. Jewish people who pray, and act for its destruction - this is unacceptable by 99 percent of world jews. We see anti-semitism rising again in europe,
now backed by fundamentalist islam.. but even before we had a country that they could blame, the europeans were racist, were killing jews, persecuting them, denying them work places, kicking tem around.
We have had enough of it. If this is their notion of Judaism - to sit and wait and be murdered around the world as a weak nation with no territory and no language and no hope.. well they are crazy and we all wont accept their notion of "autistic pseud-judaism".
You yourself understand the importance of achdut (oneness), yet you yourself create pirud (division) by your hatred for them. You need to be part of the soultion, not part of the problem. The solution is an internal issue. I am sorry, source26, you are 100% wrong on this issue.

Go and do the things you believe in. But if hate these people, you are the one destroying Israel, not them.

Hatred for them - well we are the majority: religeous haredim (ultra-orthodox),
light-religeous (rav kuk followers) and secular - are united in Israel.

They are the only ones who are anti-israel and call for its destruction.
o they are the ones that have physically and mentlly divided themselves from the rest of us.
If I hate them, t means I like living and I wont let people call openly to destruct this country. In another country these people would be called traitors and kicked out.
In America their citizenship would be revoked immediatly. I am afraid Israel is too tolerant when it comes to "jews" ho cal for its destruction.. this is unacceptable.

Hatred for them - well we are the majority: religeous haredim (ultra-orthodox),
light-religeous (rav kuk followers) and secular - are united in Israel.

They are the only ones who are anti-israel and call for its destruction.
o they are the ones that have physically and mentlly divided themselves from the rest of us.
If I hate them, t means I like living and I wont let people call openly to destruct this country. In another country these people would be called traitors and kicked out.
In America their citizenship would be revoked immediatly. I am afraid Israel is too tolerant when it comes to "jews" ho cal for its destruction.. this is unacceptable.
Fortunately we are not like other countries and not like other nations.

Zionism separated itself from Torah. Yet it is part of the fabric of Jewish life. And they are not abandoned by Judaism even though they are against Torah in its basics.

In Torah, we do not hate each other for our differences. We love each other for Jewishness.

Hakam Lehorgeha - Hashkem Lehorgo..
"A person that acts to have you killed - kill him first".

to me - a person who wants my country destroyed - wants me killed.

The rest is self explanatory.

Hakam Lehorgeha - Hashkem Lehorgo..

A person that wants you killed - kill him first.

to me - a person who wants my country destroyed - wants me killed.

The rest is self explanatory.
It just so happens that you misunderstand the halachah. If you really want to understand and quote halachah, you need to learn how the gadolim understand it.

They are not people who are running after you to kill you according to halachah. You really, really need to understand this well. Otherwise you are simpy deciding halachah incorrectly, in a completely wrong situation. Halachah is not something open to 'poetic' interpretation. It has its boundaries. And the application you stated is incorrect.

If you are really interested in the truthful intepretation of this halachah, I am more than willing to learn with you. But I will not, and cannot, accept a completely wrong application of halachah here on this forum. Your emotions are running away from you. Do not denegrate halachah to fit into your emotional state.

ok then, what is the "correct" interpretation?

It just so happens that I studied in a semi-religious school so dont lecture me what I can do with Halachot. I see what is written in the Tanach as 1000 times more important than anything a jewish rabbi in poland in the 18th century had to say.

The talmud etc. were all written quickly after the destrucion of the second temple. things there were very mesy, missing or lacking. Things got distorted the way a eporter on the 9-11 attacks would sound an hour after it happened, so I say go ONLY on what the Taqnach says. If switching on a light is not mentioned - its ok. Only what is mentioned counts. Thats why I am secular. These rabbis can sit and give their verdicts (mostly stupid ones) on anything.. but they are ruining this religion. You have a kosher cell-phone? give me a break! They and the kanaim are turning this religion into a joke, no wonder judaism is the only decreasing religion in the entire world.

ok then, what is the "correct" interpretation?

It just so happens that I studied in a semi-religious school so dont lecture me what I can do with Halachot. I see what is written in the Tanach as 1000 times more important than anything a jewish rabbi in poland in the 18th century had to say.

The talmud etc. were all written quickly after the destrucion of the second temple. things there were very mesy, missing or lacking. Things got distorted the way a eporter on the 9-11 attacks would sound an hour after it happened, so I say go ONLY on what the Taqnach says. If switching on a light is not mentioned - its ok. Only what is mentioned counts. Thats why I am secular. These rabbis can sit and give their verdicts (mostly stupid ones) on anything.. but they are ruining this religion. You have a kosher cell-phone? give me a break! They and the kanaim are turning this religion into a joke, no wonder judaism is the only decreasing religion in the entire world.
So if you are an apikorus, what can I do? I thought I was speaking to a reasonable person. It turns out you also dispise Torah. Do not quote Tanach without Miphorshim. Only an Aam HaAretz would do that. Your lack of respect for the Torah scholars in Europe is dispicable. Your pretense of concern for Torah is a mirage. You are not interested in truth or Torah. You are really part of the splinter group of Judaism. No wonder you hate people with a Torah and halachic perspective.

And yes, I can tell the correct interpretation of Torah. That is because I actaully believe in and study Torah. Your ideas, based on secularism, are not Torah. I may respect your ideas as one person to another. But I have no respect for ideas as being Torah and halachah. You yourself have stated you don't really care about Torah and halachah.

You are nothing compared to Rashi and Rambam and Ramban. You are even less without the achronim. If you think, for one minute you can interpret Tanach without them, you are a fool.

What was dispikable is that in my grandfathers village in polland the jews split into three hassidic factions, constantly fighting mong themselves on Torah interpretations.. and this was common in all of eastern europe.
Where did this get them? Well 95 percent of that village's jewish population were destroyed in the Holocaust.

They were so into interpreting each faction in its way, so constanty in bitter feuds about what hassidic way should be taken in each and every litlle detail that the ending we all know..

If you fail to understand the leson Im saying - then you can keep trying to support people who constantly surround themselves with the hate towards Israel.. this is the ONLY thing tht unites these extremist groups of pseudo-jews. They are the "left-overs" in every sense of the hassidic groups that used to quarrel with everyone around for the joy of it.. the 98 percent of us have had enough of that and of them..
they can go hug the people who destroy us and then go back to fighting among themselves - whats left of them, anyway.

http://www.geocities.com/alabasters_archive/rabin_assassination.html

read this and understand why we are so against these people.. the history and background of their extremist quarrels and fightings..

812 new emmigrants will come to Israel:)

What was dispikable is that in my grandfathers village in polland the jews split into three hassidic factions, constantly fighting mong themselves on Torah interpretations.. and this was common in all of eastern europe.
Where did this get them? Well 95 percent of that village's jewish population were destroyed in the Holocaust.

They were so into interpreting each faction in its way, so constanty in bitter feuds about what hassidic way should be taken in each and every litlle detail that the ending we all know..

If you fail to understand the leson Im saying - then you can keep trying to support people who constantly surround themselves with the hate towards Israel.. this is the ONLY thing tht unites these extremist groups of pseudo-jews. They are the "left-overs" in every sense of the hassidic groups that used to quarrel with everyone around for the joy of it.. the 98 percent of us have had enough of that and of them..
they can go hug the people who destroy us and then go back to fighting among themselves - whats left of them, anyway.
When you learn why you were born you can come back and appologize. Your egocentric philosphy is the bane of Torah and Judaism. Do not talk to me about the errors of supporting people who believe different halachic perspectives than me. That is the very reason the 2nd Beit HaMikdash was destroyed. And you keep it destroyed to this day with your hatred. You are not a builder. You are a destroyer. I really hope you learn more and change your ways, source26. It is important for all of us.

this week

http://www.geocities.com/alabasters_archive/rabin_assassination.html

read this and understand why we are so against these people.. the history and background of their extremist quarrels and fightings..
You are more extreme than them. And you do not have a leg of halachah to stand on. So who is worse?

...And I quote:

"Pre-modern Judaism was characterized by many cases of inter-Jewish violence, of which the few cases mentioned above are merely representative. These few cases, however, are sufficient to show that Jewish fundamentalism in Israel, both in its messianic and Haredi forms, is a reversion to a situation that existed before the onset of modernization and the loss of the type of Jewish autonomy with its arbitrary powers that allowed killing or otherwise severely punishing informers ... The Jewish fundamentalist attitude towards heretics is much worse than is the attitude towards non-Jews. This is analogous to the situation in other religions

this week
Actually it will be August 16.

...And I quote:

"Pre-modern Judaism was characterized by many cases of inter-Jewish violence, of which the few cases mentioned above are merely representative. These few cases, however, are sufficient to show that Jewish fundamentalism in Israel, both in its messianic and Haredi forms, is a reversion to a situation that existed before the onset of modernization and the loss of the type of Jewish autonomy with its arbitrary powers that allowed killing or otherwise severely punishing informers ... The Jewish fundamentalist attitude towards heretics is much worse than is the attitude towards non-Jews. This is analogous to the situation in other religions
Normally, an intellectually honest person states from where or from whom they quote.

And you do not need Achronim to teach you Tanch but you need someone to teach you about pre-modern Judaism. I really have lost respect for your ideas. You are a series of self-contradictions.

i read this week will come to Israel 812 new emmigrants
107 from ex USSSR

http://www.geocities.com/alabasters_archive/rabin_assassination.html

I gave you the entire article and you can by this book!
the quote is from there and normally before giving out remarks
about honesty you can first ask where the quote is from.

i read this week will come to Israel 812 new emmigrants
107 from ex USSSR
The main group of 812 is coming August 16. I do not know about 107 from the ex ussr.

People who come from north america are
1) lazy
2) expect Israel should give them a nice sea-side penthouse and that
living here is like their birth-right trips, "all fun and stuff"
3) Have a hard time with our way of life (small apartments, no maid, rough people, rough climate)
4) would probably bring us and them more good staying in the U.S and supporting us from the outside

http://www.geocities.com/alabasters_archive/rabin_assassination.html

I gave you the entire article and you can by this book!
the quote is from there and normally before giving out remarks
about honesty you can first ask where the quote is from.
Get real. You quoted it. Tell us where it is from and stop blaming others for being dissapointed that you did not have the integrity to tell us where the quote was from.

:soapbox:

Listen, I gave you the adress to the entire article BEFORE I quoted it, use your eyes.. it was there all you have to do is click the link before rushing to play blame-games!

People who come from north america are
1) lazy
2) expect Israel should give them a nice sea-side penthouse and that
living here is like their birth-right trips, "all fun and stuff"
3) Have a hard time with our way of life (small apartments, no maid, rough people, rough climate)
4) would probably bring us and them more good staying in the U.S and supporting us from the outside
So here is another group of Jews you hate. Any others?

You are a hypocrit, source26.

who said I hate them?

my american family tred Aliya about 2-3 times before they gave up.
Hebrew was too hard, the mentality was too tough, they were expecting
everything to be made for them.. Thisis the case with 90 percent of N.Americans doing Aliya.. They stay a bit, but they give up very fast!
They buy flats here and rather come to nice summer vacations like
my family and this is the case with most of them.

Being a hypocrit is thinking otherwise..

:soapbox:

Listen, I gave you the adress to the entire article BEFORE I quoted it, use your eyes.. it was there all you have to do is click the link before rushing to play blame-games!
Once again, you are willing to quote that article but have no need for the Gadolim in Poland in the 18th century. You are lost, my friend. You put your faith in wanderers and lost men and apikorsim instead of great leaders of our people.

who said I hate them?

my american family tred Aliya about 2-3 times before they gave up.
Hebrew was too hard, the mentality was too tough, they were expecting
everything to be made for them.. Thisis the case with 90 percent of N.Americans doing Aliya.. They stay a bit, but they give up very fast!
They buy flats here and rather come to nice summer vacations like
my family and this is the case with most of them.

Being a hypocrit is thinking otherwise..
Who says you hate them .... look at your own words. You do not state facts. You state your opinions and beliefs.

Asides which, you are wrong.

Oh So this is why so many of them are becoming secular?

Believe me, they know they are freaks.. theyknow they are extremists and despised by 98 percent of the jews.. they are so burried in their hate they cant dig a way back to normality.. they ae insane, I wish I could show you the 2 newspapers they publish..

Oh So this is why so many of them are becoming secular?

Believe me, they know they are freaks.. theyknow they are extremists and despised by 98 percent of the jews.. they are so burried in their hate they cant dig a way back to normality.. they ae insane, I wish I could show you the 2 newspapers they publish..
source26, you have stopped making sense. You know where I see hate ... from you. You want to say it is them that hate ... but I see you words for them, I see your disdain for Jewish leaders and great Gadolim. I see your hatred.

You jump from N. Americans in general to 'them'. Are you really unable to maintain your thought here and keep up with an idea? Who are becoming secular? The N. Americans? The Zionists? Who? You who disdain the Gedolim? Are they more secular than you? If you do not believe in the Gedolim along with Torah you are worse than secular.

do you know that most Israeli rabbis say you should not even put the words "neturey karta" on your lips let alone reffer to them - this is how much they are despised in the general jewish community.. just traitors.

EVERYTHINGISONE, READ AND READ WELL:

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/p...sID=0&listSrc=Y
14/06/2002
Neturey Karta in pro-palestinian march in London HELD ON SATURDAY ON SHAVUOTH:

Feature / Neturei Karta maintains its anti-Zionist stance

By Sharon Sadeh, Ha'aretz Correspondent

LONDON - The extreme pro-Palestinian groups in Britain have recently found a new propaganda weapon in the form of an ultra-Orthodox sect whose activities have turned the rest of the British Jewish community against it.

In the past few years, members of the extreme Neturei Karta movement have increased their involvement in anti-Israeli activities, participating in demonstrations calling for Israel's annihilation. The Jewish community in Britain has responded by excommunicating the group, banning its members from the country's synagogues.

Neturei Karta's most remarkable display was at the pro-Palestinian rally held on May 18 in London's Trafalgar Square, two weeks after a mass Israel solidarity in the same place.

"It was shocking to see these people wrapped in teffilin and tallits [prayer shawls], waving signs against Israel and Zionism, at an event deliberately held on a Saturday, during Shavuot, a feast which commemorates the receiving of the Torah," said a spokesman for the Board of Deputies, an umbrella group for the British Jewish community.

"Someone asked them how they got to the demonstration, as they are not supposed to travel on Shabbat, and they said they had come on foot from Stamford Hill, 14 kilometers away."

"Don't worry, we didn't violate the Shabbat," says Avraham Grohman, considered to be the leader of Neturei Karta in Britain. He has become a popular lecturer in the past year among extreme pro-Palestinian groups in Britain, including organizations affiliated to Hamas.

Grohman told Ha'aretz that Neturei Karta supports the Palestinians so that they "know that Jews are not fighting and are not creating the problems for the Palestinians; it's the Zionists fault.

"We believe in the Torah, according to the Torah we have no claim for that part of the world. We, the Jews, were thrown out for our sins and for the worst deeds, and the exile is our remedy. Jews have no right to take that land away from the Palestinians. If somebody came to your house, and wanted to take it away from you by force, what would you do? Would you let him go into your house and take it away? No, you wouldn't."

Grohman disagrees that Neturei Karta's participation in Palestinian demonstrations legitimizes suicide attacks.

"It's all stories and politics," he says. "No, it is a fight! When somebody has ammunition to fight somebody else, and the other does not have that ammunition, he will fight back with just a stick, he has nothing else. Do you call the person with a stick a terrorist? He fights with whatever he can! He cannot fight with more than that. Who has more ammunition? Who has more F16s? Do the Palestinians have F16 planes to bomb Tel Aviv, or do the Zionists have F16 planes to bomb them?

"The fight is the fault of the Zionists and the Zionist state who do not care about Jewish or Palestinian life. The suffering and bloodshed will never stop as long as the Zionist state exists, thanks to the influence of the Zionists on America and England."

Nor does Grohman acknowledge the fact that the Holocaust played a part in the establishment of the State of Israel. "What Holocaust?" he asks. "The Germans are the greatest friend of the Zionist state, the biggest sum of money was given by the Germans for the Zionist state."

Grohman even goes on to justify the slaughter of Jews in Europe, claiming that they were responsible for their own fate.

"The Zionists helped to create and bring up anti-Semitism in Germany," he says. "They also broke the economy of Germany at that time, so what do you expect them to do?"

He claims that Neturei Karta plays an important part in maintaining Britain's safety. "Because we are friendly with all the nations, especially with the Palestinians, and many other Muslims, we are actually reducing tensions and thus creating good relationship all over the world. Without our deeds there would also have been these problems in England a long time ago. The English would not have been able to use the roads."

Grohman believes that his group has contributed to the safety of Jews worldwide. "We got through to hundreds of Muslim newspapers, who stopped using the term Jew. When they talk about those things they don't say Jew, but Zionist."

Britain's Jewish community, however, is enraged by Neturei Karta activities, with Britain's Chief Rabbi Jonathan Sacks slamming their anti-Zionist slant.

"Recent actions of members of Neturei Karta in protesting outside Jewish community events, together with groups hostile to Israel and the Jewish community, are unforgivable," he declared.

But the community's dislike for the group does not end with expressions of disapproval. Threats to Neturei Karta members have been reported; their vehicles and property have been destroyed, and they have been sacked from their places of work.

Grohman himself was attacked by a Braslav Hassidic Jew during a counter-demonstration held by Palestinians opposite the Israel solidarity rally at Trafalgar Square. Three weeks ago, one of the sect's synagogues was attacked and its windows were spray-painted with Star of David symbols.

The activities of the group have also angered ultra-Orthodox organizations traditionally linked to Neturei Karta.

"Even the Satmer Hasidic movement, affiliated with Neturei Karta, regards the activities of some of its members as crossing a red line," said a Haredi source. "The Hasidic movement is not a Zionist movement, but there is a difference between this position and active support of an extreme stance that justifies the murder of Jews, as expressed by Neturei Karta."

The ultra-Orthodox rabbinical court in London has taken an even harsher stance against Neturei Karta. Last month, it distributed a pamphlet in ultra-Orthodox synagogues similar to an FBI "most-wanted" list.

The pamphlet showed close-up photographs of Neturei Karta members taken during pro-Palestinian demonstrations. The caption on the leaflet read: "Do you recognize any these pro-Palestinian demonstrators? If they come collecting at your shul, tell them where to go - to hell."

do you know that most Israeli rabbis say you should not even put the words "neturey karta" on your lips let alone reffer to them - this is how much they are despised in the general jewish community.. just traitors.
You are wrong. And you do not know with whom you are conversing here. Do not tell me about the majority of Israeli Rabbis when you are speaking to one, and to one who knows better than you. You are not in the religous community. You disdain Rabbis. You disdain Mephorshim. You are not in the main branch of Judaism that has kept our faith and our people vibrant for thousands of years. You think you know better than them and better than us! Do not have the audasity to tell me who I am and what I know and what WE say.

i agree with source neturei karta are traitors of nation and i hate them and for me they are not jews!

Read tht article.
these people are using antisemitic propaganda to justify the distruction of Israel, to justify the holocaust? Are you out of your mind that we can accept these insaine
people? They arent jews.. no jew would say these things..

i agree with source neturei karta are traitors of nation and i hate them and for me they are not jews!
Zohar, my friend here, you are welcome to your opinion. However, your opinion destroys Judaism and creates division. If that is your wish, continue. But you only speak from emotion. They are not traitors. They love you. They Love Israel. They love Torah. Stop your emotions for a minute. So you disagree. Should you hate them? It is a sad, sad thing on your part.

I do not agree with them. But they are Jews with a ove for all of us. That is the absolute truth even if you cannot and will not accept it. Don't hate them.

Read tht article.
these people are using antisemitic propaganda to justify the distruction of Israel, to justify the holocaust? Are you out of your mind that we can accept these insaine
people? They arent jews.. no jew would say these things..
You spew propaganda against Jews like our enemies. You are better friends of our enemies than the Neturie Karta.

An I quote again from that article, you probably dont want to read it because it hurts you but you have to see how mad these people are:

"Don't worry, we didn't violate the Shabbat," says Avraham Grohman, considered to be the leader of Neturei Karta in Britain. He has become a popular lecturer in the past year among extreme pro-Palestinian groups in Britain, including organizations affiliated to Hamas"

"It was shocking to see these people wrapped in teffilin and tallits [prayer shawls], waving signs against Israel and Zionism, at an event deliberately held on a Saturday, during Shavuot, a feast which commemorates the receiving of the Torah," said a spokesman for the Board of Deputies, an umbrella group for the British Jewish community."

"..What Holocaust?" he asks. "The Germans are the greatest friend of the Zionist state, the biggest sum of money was given by the Germans for the Zionist state."
Grohman even goes on to justify the slaughter of Jews in Europe, claiming that they were responsible for their own fate.
"The Zionists helped to create and bring up anti-Semitism in Germany," he says. "They also broke the economy of Germany at that time, so what do you expect them to do?"

"We believe in the Torah, according to the Torah we have no claim for that part of the world. We, the Jews, were thrown out for our sins and for the worst deeds, and the exile is our remedy"

"The activities of the group have also angered ultra-Orthodox organizations traditionally linked to Neturei Karta."

Zohar, my friend here, you are welcome to your opinion. However, your opinion destroys Judaism and creates division. If that is your wish, continue. But you only speak from emotion. They are not traitors. They love you. They Love Israel. They love Torah. Stop your emotions for a minute. So you disagree. Should you hate them? It is a sad, sad thing on your part.

I do not agree with them. But they are Jews with a ove for all of us. That is the absolute truth even if you cannot and will not accept it. Don't hate them.

i don't hate them(noone can hate somebody if he is different) but i don't feel love as i feel love to secular israelies/jews.
and any jew who is against my country and him country he is traitor!

"Even the Satmer Hasidic movement, affiliated with Neturei Karta, regards the activities of some of its members as crossing a red line," said a Haredi source. "The Hasidic movement is not a Zionist movement, but there is a difference between this position and active support of an extreme stance that justifies the murder of Jews, as expressed by Neturei Karta."

An I quote again from that article, you probably dont want to read it because it hurts you but you have to see how mad these people are:

"Don't worry, we didn't violate the Shabbat," says Avraham Grohman, considered to be the leader of Neturei Karta in Britain. He has become a popular lecturer in the past year among extreme pro-Palestinian groups in Britain, including organizations affiliated to Hamas"

"It was shocking to see these people wrapped in teffilin and tallits [prayer shawls], waving signs against Israel and Zionism, at an event deliberately held on a Saturday, during Shavuot, a feast which commemorates the receiving of the Torah," said a spokesman for the Board of Deputies, an umbrella group for the British Jewish community."

"..What Holocaust?" he asks. "The Germans are the greatest friend of the Zionist state, the biggest sum of money was given by the Germans for the Zionist state."
Grohman even goes on to justify the slaughter of Jews in Europe, claiming that they were responsible for their own fate.
"The Zionists helped to create and bring up anti-Semitism in Germany," he says. "They also broke the economy of Germany at that time, so what do you expect them to do?"

"We believe in the Torah, according to the Torah we have no claim for that part of the world. We, the Jews, were thrown out for our sins and for the worst deeds, and the exile is our remedy"

"The activities of the group have also angered ultra-Orthodox organizations traditionally linked to Neturei Karta."
And through your hatred of these Jews we continue to live in a world without peace. So how are you any better?

Do not think for a minute there is such a thing as peace in the world and peace for Jews without peace among Jews. So you perpetuaute the world without peace because of your hatred.

Admit you are wrong everything is one:
Even your SATMER friends say so:

"Even the Satmer Hasidic movement, affiliated with Neturei Karta, regards the activities of some of its members as crossing a red line," said a Haredi source. "The Hasidic movement is not a Zionist movement, but there is a difference between this position and active support of an extreme stance that justifies the murder of Jews, as expressed by Neturei Karta."

A for spreading hatered:

"Grohman believes that his group has contributed to the safety of Jews worldwide. "We got through to hundreds of Muslim newspapers, who stopped using the term Jew. When they talk about those things they don't say Jew, but Zionist."

Admit you are wrong everything is one:
Even your SATMER friends say so:

"Even the Satmer Hasidic movement, affiliated with Neturei Karta, regards the activities of some of its members as crossing a red line," said a Haredi source. "The Hasidic movement is not a Zionist movement, but there is a difference between this position and active support of an extreme stance that justifies the murder of Jews, as expressed by Neturei Karta."
You are so obsessed with your hatred of these people you do not understand. So what if they crossed the line? You did too when you said your ignorant statement about the Gadolim. the Zionists crossed the line 50 years and 80 years ago and still today with their anti-Torah stance. You cannot love these people? You do not love people who are Jewish but live life intensely and against Jewish ideals and Torah? Is that your litmus test? No! Why do you single these people out yet you do not hate yourself even though your own beliefs are putrid to Torah and Judaism, since you disdain the Rabbis and Gadolim? Be honest and open your hearts to your brothers.

The topic is not me. sir. The topic is Neturei Karta and dont change the subject just because you lost your argument. Let me be what I want to be and dont try to educate me because you'll loose that one too.

"Even the Satmer Hasidic movement, affiliated with Neturei Karta, regards the activities of some of its members as crossing a red line," said a Haredi source. "The Hasidic movement is not a Zionist movement, but there is a difference between this position and active support of an extreme stance that justifies the murder of Jews, as expressed by Neturei Karta."

A for spreading hatered:

"Grohman believes that his group has contributed to the safety of Jews worldwide. "We got through to hundreds of Muslim newspapers, who stopped using the term Jew. When they talk about those things they don't say Jew, but Zionist."
I can understand that. I may not have gone about it in the way they did, but it makes sense. There is a difference.

I love Israel. I have served in the Army. I have lived in Israel and raised ny kids here.

Yet I believe in Torah, not Zionism.

Yet I will fight for my country and against my enemies. I live here not because of the haulocaust. I live here because this is OUR land because of the Torah. Yours and mine and the Neturei Karta's. I do not care what the UN says or what the Muslims say. None of their words actually dictate to me what land I can claim or what land I can live on.

I am willing to abide by thier sanctions because that is the way of the land. Ultimately this land is ours because of the Torah and for no other reason. If we need to have a Palestinian state next to us on our land, for the time being, that is what needs to be.

But the bottom line: Are you better than me because you call yourself a Zionist?

"I live here because this is OUR land because of the Torah."

And they say exactly the opposite...
so how can two people use the Torah - one comes to a conclusion it supports zionism and the other comes to the opposite one.
This is the problem..

I didnt get an answer from you:

"I live here because this is OUR land because of the Torah."

And they say exactly the opposite...
so how can two people use the Torah - one comes to a conclusion it supports zionism and the other comes to the opposite one.
This is the problem..

The topic is not me. sir. The topic is Neturei Karta and dont change the subject just because you lost your argument. Let me be what I want to be and dont try to educate me because you'll loose that one too.

"Even the Satmer Hasidic movement, affiliated with Neturei Karta, regards the activities of some of its members as crossing a red line," said a Haredi source. "The Hasidic movement is not a Zionist movement, but there is a difference between this position and active support of an extreme stance that justifies the murder of Jews, as expressed by Neturei Karta."
You arrogance will be your downfall, source26. You make up reasons why hate is OK and good. You will never win that debate. We do not even hate our enemies, let alone our brethren.

Ok for the third time:

"I live here because this is OUR land because of the Torah."

And they say exactly the opposite...
so how can two people use the Torah - one comes to a conclusion it supports zionism and the other comes to the opposite one.
This is the problem..

"I live here because this is OUR land because of the Torah."

And they say exactly the opposite...
so how can two people use the Torah - one comes to a conclusion it supports zionism and the other comes to the opposite one.
This is the problem..
You have already shown you have disdain for Torah. So do not question other's belief in Torah. It is chutzpah. You do not understand Torah or its ways. You have such ignorance to ask how can 2 people have opposite opinions of what the Torah says! Go learn! Your question is really not a quaestion, but a testimony to your lack of understanding.

wait a minute..
this is your best answer?
that this legitimate qestion is a hutzpa?
sorry, thats a sad excuse not to answer my question how can two people interprate the same torah in 180 degrees, this is exatly the rpoblem that plagues judaism and started these extremist nutshells.

wait a minute..
this is your best answer?
that this legitimate qestion is a hutzpa?
sorry, thats a sad excuse not to answer my question how can two people interprate the same torah in 180 degrees, this is exatly the rpoblem that plagues judaism and started these extremist nutshells.
You have no idea how to learn Torah or what Torah is. Have you ever learned Gemmorah? Have you ever learned Torah? Do you know what an argument LiShmah means?
If this is the best you can come up with, I now undrestand you are not up to speed for this discussion. There is no ONE WAY in Torah. Who taught you?

By the way the correct term of Lishma is:
לשם שמיים
(Leshem Shamaim)

and thats exactly the things that started bitter quarrels throught the hassidic communities in east europe.. these stupid "pilpulim" פלפולים
which is "digging into the same issues over and over in different ways"

this is what the yeshiva guys are doing instead of getting a job and financing their extended families.. sitting and arguing aimlessly over interpretations of every comma and letter of each word..

By the way the correct term of Lishma is:
לשם שמיים
(Leshem Shamaim)

and thats exactly the things that started bitter quarrels throught the hassidic communities in east europe.. tese stupid "pilpulim" פלפולים
which is "digging into matters over and over in different ways"
So let's get this straight. You ask how can people say the Torah means two separate things, even opposites. Then you say that was the problem in Europe, though you bring no proof it was a problem.

So in your way of thinking, one way is better than multiple options. Even though that way of thinking has NO SOURCE in Torah. So you are an apikorus! You do not believe in Torah and how Torah law is developed and how Torah thought is advanced. So who cares, from a Torah perspective, what you say.

Your way of thinking will kill Judaism. It is killing Judaism right now. Your way of thinking brings hatred and hatred of other Jews kills Judaism and our hopes and our dreams. You have the gaul to 'correct' LiShma to leshame shemayim, but have no busha in abandoning the very traits that define Jews and Judaism. Sorry source26, I am not willing to continue this discussion with you. You attack the very traits you define you, and cannot admit it. Thanks for the discussion, though. I sincerely hope you learn to embrace love for your brethren, because even though you disgaree with them, they actually have concern for you.

this is what the yeshiva guys are doing instead of getting a job and financing their extended families.. sitting and arguing aimlessly over interpretations of every comma and letter of each word..

By the way, B'Chasdie Hashem, I am a yeshiva guy, I have a job, I have a post graduate degree, I am a Rabbi, I make more money than you, and I feed my family, B'ezrat Hashem. You are so full of hatred and stupitity that you say very stupid things. So go ahead and spin this one again according to your hatred and nonsense for Torah!

Im very happy to hear you can manage being both a Rabbi and making money, you would be regarded here as the extraordinary, not the ordinary!

Abroad the haredic jews, scholars, rabbis know they dont have the israeli social welfare funds to rely on. Abroad somehoe you manage to work and study torah at the same time.. if that is not a miracle justifying living abroad in the "galut" than what is? :)

Most yeshiva guys in Israel dont bother with getting any degree, they put "scholar" as their fulltime occupation. (Of course they work in odd jobs - "black" jobs unreported etc..)