No disrespect ferge, but were you opposed to the Grand Arcade in Wigan? Something which is very generic (and of much lesser quality than Tithebarn will be) but has made Wigan a much more attractive place to visit?

Hell, let's even take the Harris Museum and Library. A fantastic building, but unique? Not really, no!

"Unique" is an often misused word, but in building terms, the Harris comes close. Although many monumental classical syle buildings were built throughout western Europe in the second half of the 19th century, they are almost all of Roman derivative. James Hibbert's design is very unusual in that it is in a Greek style. In The Buildings of England, Pevsner notes "...the date, 1882-93, is almost unbelievably late for the style. - . It ought to be contemporary with St George's Hall in Liverpool, but has quite near parallels of similar dates in Glasgow."

Last Saturday night, I made an unusual sally to the top of Psycho Alley for a few drinks with friends. Stepping out of the Kolor Bar just before midnight for a fag, I noticed the subtle, slowly phasing warm white and indigo uplighting on the lantern windows of the Harris. I found it a welcome highlight, drawing the eye to a feature of this great building that one might not study during the day. It was well after midnight when I stepped out again, and the lighting had sensibly been switched off. This lighting is essentially an art installation itself and worthy of your attention if you're in town between 6pm and midnight.

Yeh the lighting on the Harris is fantastic. So much better than the underwhelming orange lighting that it used to have. The phase lighting on the crown is brilliant also.

No disrespect ferge, but were you opposed to the Grand Arcade in Wigan? Something which is very generic (and of much lesser quality than Tithebarn will be) but has made Wigan a much more attractive place to visit?


The Grand Arcade is just a shopping centre in a small town.. it wasn't a masterplan to revive and rebrand a city. I see your point, at the time I was made up, being my hometown, but it was a whole different kettle of fish..

Besides, I'm not opposing for the sake of it.. I'd just hate to see Preston use such an unprecedented opportunity as the tithebarn seems to be going. I know it is only the start (if it should ever start!) and further developments would hopefully come. I'd like to think it was noble to at least regard a city's heritage and history as opposed to the forumers having their 'sod it I want something shiny' mantra..

By building a big knock off debenhams or JL aint gonna make it 'stand out' as you put it..

Yes, but the scheme is about more than just putting shops in. (God, you are starting to become a Riversider clone!)

The design changes the entire layout of the centre at that point and gives the centre more structure. No longer will a huge, oversized bus station dominate a sizeable chuck of the centre, no longer will people have to negotiate dank subways to move around that area. The addition of a cinema and redsidential units, whilst not the be all and end all, could help to improve the night time environment away from the current p*ssed-up violent chavs. OK, it might not, but one can hope!

and who ever said about being like London?! Geeeze..

Who said? I suggest you look at some of the pictures in the planning documents!!

Ok ok I retreat! on the basis that I don't want to be a known as 'Riversider Clone!'.. :(

I see there is little left of the previously mentioned buildings on corporation street that are being brought down, was interupting my lectures today

Ok ok I retreat! on the basis that I don't want to be a known as 'Riversider Clone!'.. :(

I see there is little left of the previously mentioned buildings on corporation street that are being brought down, was interupting my lectures today

In Harris Building lol?

Where else, lol.. the bane of my life for nigh on 4 years

Beats being in Vernon!

I noticed that building in corporation street was going. I'm assuming that its going to be replaced by another 5/6 storey student block.

anyone get any pics of its demise?

if they hadn't already, its a bit late now.. s'gone!

Going back onto the big T scheme.. (no, I'm not kicking off!!)

I was wondering, does anyone have a copy, or know where to find the contextual study (well, they probably have done many!) or feasibility for the masterplan? My uni mate printed a copy for her work and then gave it to me when I did a project in Preston.. and it was really useful, showing transport infrastructure, building types, conservation areas, pedestrian circulation etc etc.. It'd be really useful for my latest uni work as a reference cept I can't find the copy I was given or a .pdf version online!

Any help would be appreciated... :)


EDIT***

Found what I was after... an DESIGN/ACCESS STATEMENT... duh, to think I've only been studying for 4 years, you'd think I'd know - for shame :|

Any pics of the new international hotel anyone?

I live right next to it so I'll get u a couple tomorrow. Don't expect much though! For something thats called the 'International Hotel', it doesn't look very international!!!

whats the international hotel when its at home?? its not that lump they built next door to Brunel court... and furthermore, please tell me you're not in there, Accy?!

whats the international hotel when its at home?? its not that lump they built next door to Brunel court... and furthermore, please tell me you're not in there, Accy?!

Yep, thats the one ;)
Thankfully I'm not in Brunel (they seem to have a fire alarm every night). I'm in Leighton.

If you mean Preston International Hotel (the one you see on your right as you pass County hall going down Ringway), I thought the same thing. At first I mistook it for student accomodation. I only realised it was a hotel when I looked at it more closely. Is that road more or less entirely student accomodation now?

http://editorial.jpress.co.uk/web/Upload/PRES//TH1_2010200847hedgehog2.jpg

This is the giant "hedgehog" destined to become Preston's most eye-catching building.
The offices will cost £8m to build on land at the Eastway-Oliver's Place roundabout in Fulwood, at the entrance to the North Preston Employment Area.

It would house 350 people and plans include a 600-space car park which could be used to ease parking problems in the neighbouring business park.

The aluminium "spines" which cover the building will give it a striking exterior, will ripple in the wind and change colour with the light.

A planning application has been made today and the owner, an unnamed Jersey-based developer with links to the local area, has promised the money is in place to start building work as soon as permission is granted.

Talks are already at an advanced stage with a "huge organisation" which is keen to make it a headquarters for its design operation.

Scheme agent Roger Parker, of Preston-based Parker and Company chartered surveyors, said the building was likely to cost more to construct than it would be worth.

He said: "On the inside it will be a conventional office building but the exterior will be simply awesome, the likes of which Preston has never seen before.

"The owners want to create a building of international importance, a destination which people will come from across the country to see and what they have got is exactly that."

The design was selected after a competition overseen by the Royal Institute of British Architects (RIBA) which attracted entries from architects across the world which was won by London-based Moxon Architects.

Ian Simpson, the architect behind Manchester's Hilton tower hotel and Urbis buildings, was on the panel alongside Preston-based planning consultant Alban Cassidy.

Unsuccessful designs included a doughnut-shaped building made out of black glass, an office block with a moat around, and one clad in rubber which looked "like a stealth bomber."

Mr Cassidy said: "The owners want to create an iconic building and a stunning entrance to the business park, there is no way you could do that in the city centre.

"They have looked at potential sites around Preston and chosen this as the one which would have the greatest impact."

It will sit on land close to a historical landmark known as Cromwell's Mound, where history tells that military leader Oliver Cromwell drove his Parliamentary forces through Fulwood, pursuing Royalists during the Battle of Preston in the English Civil War in 1648.

Mr Cassidy said the development would not affect the mound which is used as agricultural land.

Talks have also taken place about building a low-rise multi-storey car park to the rear of the building, which would not only accomodate workers in the building, but could be rented to people on the nearby business park which has been blighted with parking problems.

http://www.lep.co.uk/news/City39s-8m-39hedgehog39-building.4608130.jp

Looks promising, about time we had something with a bit of imagination.

Hmm, its hard to tell what the building will be like from that picture. I'm assuming this won't be near the Red Scar estate?

Yep, thats the one ;)
Thankfully I'm not in Brunel (they seem to have a fire alarm every night). I'm in Leighton.

I lived on that side of brunel court 2 year ago, one morning after a heavy night.. i open my (ground floor) curtains in the bedroom to have three builders stood lookin at me, oh boy :|

and the pile driver for this development managed to disrupt me year there, they piled their materials up against my window, so i couldn't open it! would anyone do anything about it... no.. So one night, we stole all their piping.. we had about 60m of yellow piping in our corridor.. I have pics (it was hilarious) but fret not.. we put it back a few days later!

Anyway, who'd want stay there??!

The 'Hedgehog' looks great, although hard to tell from the lil pic.. shame its not city centre, its small.. but if done well looks set to be very iconic.

Never had the pleasure of living in accomodation when i was at Uclan but did have some friends in them. Think my faves would have to be Roeburn and Ladywell. The ones behind the Victoria (Brock?) are particulary vile.

Shame indeed that its not somewhere more prominant. Could really be a landmark building. As for the "international hotel", it looks more like student accomodation than a landmark hotel. Which is a shame really but oh well. Guess thats the age we are in.

Real shame that isn't in the city centre. I would love to see that when driving up the Ringway, as opposed to some of the shit we have right now.

Problem is, where is there to put anything in the city centre these days?

Will brighten up the view out of my window, anyway!

Sorry to go off on a tangent, however I've done a rewally rubbish render of how preston's skyline will look in the future. I've probably got a few things wrong here, but if I have I'll correct them. I've assumed that the Linen buildings get built, that Tithebarn's landmark is taller than the unicentre and that the Frank Whittle proposal gets built.
http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/5008/prestonfutureskylinewt1.th.jpg (http://img252.imageshack.us/my.php?image=prestonfutureskylinewt1.jpg)http://img252.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)

haha! A Preston skyline render, never thought I'd see the day! :P
It looks so wrong without the Guild Centre! Also, from that angle, the FWP building would look a lot smaller because there is a hill in front of it (hence why Lowthian House doesn't appear from that angle). It would look massive from the Penwortham flyover though.

Nice work tho! :D

WTF that things massive. How much shorter would it be? Good work Wazcaster!
The skyline really is going to lose something with Guild Centre! Hopefully it will be replaced by something bigger and better :) (and shiney)

That hedgehog building would look good on the corner of Ringway and Corporation Street on the old rail yard site. I remember reading something somewhere that now tall buildings are allowed on that site due to view of County Hall and Wahlbergs.

too true it needs something with exactly the same massing i think, coming in from penwortham you are briefly greeting with a brilliant lil cluster of the guild, the..er, weird n behind the bus station, lol.. the town hall, and the harris (oh and cubic) they make such a good lil bunch.. without the guild it'd be well weird...

I think something with rounded corners would look grand, and maybe a few added floors just because no point back tracking, lol.

The Ringway Tower would have looked amazing as part of that cluster...

I've noticed that the 'Coming Soon' billboards for the Linen Buildings around Queen Street have been plastered over. Maybe just a temporary delay due to the credit crunch or perhaps they've been dropped. To be honest I hope they have been dropped, I much preferred the masterplan for that area by the owners of Queen's retail park.

Thanks for the comments. I think I should have it about right now. The FWP building is now a lot shorter(I thought i did it too big on my first render). The linen building should be in more or less the right place now. I've also added in the church street redevelopment and I've recladded crystal house. If theres anything else do tell.
http://img372.imageshack.us/img372/8201/prestonfutureskylineor1.th.jpg (http://img372.imageshack.us/my.php?image=prestonfutureskylineor1.jpg)
I dont know quite how not having the guild centre will affect it really. It will leave Unicentre and The Landmark sort of out on their own, and I will miss seeing the guild and the unicentre appear over the lowrises as I come in from Longridge direction (down by the side of the prison). None of the currently proposed projects really fill the gap, however its quite possible that a future proposal will. For the immediate time after the demo of the guild centre, the skyline will appear a bit jumbled up.

The two tower blocks to the left of the grey avenham ones are not there anymore. Would be nice if the Landmark had some sort of spire to provide a pinnacle of some sort.

That 'hedgehog' building is already out of date. Most decent architects are now following the 'New Puritanism', preferring simplicity and quality to gimmicks. In this era of credit crunch, such a philosophy has a lot going for it.

^commie...

That 'hedgehog' building is already out of date. Most decent architects are now following the 'New Puritanism', preferring simplicity and quality to gimmicks. In this era of credit crunch, such a philosophy has a lot going for it.

Yer, whatever.

Name ONE!

http://www.lep.co.uk/businessnews/Shopping-centre-refurb-starts-in.4626568.jp

Shopping centre refurb starts in 2009

By David Coates, Business Reporter (who the Hell is he anyway?!:lol:)

Work will start on a multi-million pound facelift for a historic Preston shopping arcade next year, its owners have revealed.

Developers Bluemantle-Kilmartin have been given the planning permission to refurbish the Grade II-listed Miller Arcade on Church Street in the city centre.

More here:
http://www.lep.co.uk/businessnews/Shopping-centre-refurb-starts-in.4626568.jp

Prestons actually got quite an impressive skyline for a Uk city of its size.Whats prestons population?

120,000 in borough. Almost 400,000 in urban area.

Hey, not been on here for a while.
Nice to see a bit of progress and a few new plans.
I like the Hedgehog building, it looks quite unique. Something I feel the Tithebarn is lacking in.
I was quite disappointed to learn that the Guild Centre will be knocked down, it's one of the only prominent buildings in Preston's skyline. I just hope they can replace it with something as tall, if not taller.
It will be amazing to watch it come down though.

Are there any renders of the new Bus Station yet?

More of a Thorstein Weblenite comment than a 'commie' one Accura. Conspicuous and unneccessary consumption is likely to be highly unpopular in times of great economic hardship.

That 'hedgehog' building is already out of date. Most decent architects are now following the 'New Puritanism', preferring simplicity and quality to gimmicks. In this era of credit crunch, such a philosophy has a lot going for it.

Come on Riversider. Name names. Which "decent architects" are you referring to? Dont dodge it, you presented a 'fact' now back it up with who these architects are. Or is this another one of your 'facts' which has absolutely no basis whatsoever?

What the latest on Church place,Winckley Sqaure Redevelopment,and CBD?

I'm talking about quality architects like Tadao Ando, Paulo Soleri, Herzog and De Meuron etc.

Here's a few representatives of what I'm talking about. Might not be the kind of architecture you lot like, but it's the kind of buildings people actually would enjoy to living and working in:

http://gliving.tv/architecture-design/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/ecospace-01.jpg

http://www.latimes.com/media/photo/2008-10/42955752.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_SNFhXS_e524/R2avyBdPUlI/AAAAAAAAAKg/_u2k5PESIxA/s1600/enviro_Tower

http://www.one-world-design.com/photos/OWD_Home.jpg

Here's where I live:
http://static.guim.co.uk/Guardian/environment/gallery/2008/oct/16/greenbuilding/UFOHomes-7290.jpg

Food for thought for members of the 'cult of concrete': http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/jul/23/conservation.greenbuilding

Tadao Ando- Been building the same stuff on variants for years. He is headly pushing the boundaries with new styles.

Herzog- Designers of the Beijing Olympic Stadium, possibly the most modern gimmicy building in the world.

First picture you posted is a modern (or is that post modern) nok off with less glass and wood cladding. There is a reason this type of building didnt become the norm. They are shit to live in.

Third picture of they skycraper. Do you have any idea how much extra the structure to support the greenery would cost. Garden in the sky, very gimmicy

Pic 4- American by any chance?

The point im trying to make is the buildings you have shown as gimmicless are not and the architects that are pushing this "New Puritanism" really dont.

Also if your going for cheaper architecture without the extra cost then how about this barrat shite that gets thrown up we do as the germans do and build houses in factories and assemble them on site. Prefabs :)

Not cheaper. Simpler, with high quality materials. The elegance of a well cut suit, rather than a flashy clown outfit.

And by simpler you mean boring?

Does this mean we are going back to Mies Van Der Rohe's "Less is more" in your architectural opinion? Id like to think not. Why would people in an economic downturn want to build plain, souless commie blocks?

Skyscraper with trees, i think that would classify as the flashy clown outfit, dont you?

http://gliving.tv/architecture-design/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/ecospace-01.jpg

You constantly slag TB off for "generic" architecture and then post the above.

Don't know whether to laugh or cry!! :nuts:

Its a garden shed with sofas in it. Thats the sort of thing quite a few people have in their back gardens, but nobody in their right mind would live in one of those. And what's with all the meerkats?

Architecture should always push boundaries. If it didnt every single building would be 2 stories tall and made of bricks. Buildings should function, but its quite possible to make them function and look good too. Looking good doesnt have to cost money.

Ironically i bet that ecospace building probably cost more to build that the average 3 bed semi.

And what's with all the meerkats?
:rofl:

http://gliving.tv/architecture-design/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/ecospace-01.jpg

Isn't this supposed to be one of those out-door office things.Doesn't look very homely to me. :ohno:

With regards to the my last post.Anyone care to answer? :)

What the latest on Church place,Winckley Sqaure Redevelopment,and CBD?

We probably wont hear anything on Church Place for quite some time. Ask Developments have (sensibly) slipped into the shadows amidst the downturn and are looking to sell the apartments they have already constructed before embarking on any new scheme. I am confident about this development though.

Winckley Square is due to begin construction next year.

Detailed plans on the CBD are due to be released next year, although things are a bit vague at the moment. However, council leaders have said they are confident enough about this scheme to say it will be completed in conjunction with Tithebarn. This will most likely press ahead though. This scheme isn't a 'nice to do' for Preston, its an absolute must. The office accommodation in Preston is currently poor, very poor. There is little or no Grade A office space in the city centre despite there being high demand.
The first phase of the CBD, the block which is due to go where Staples currently is has been submitted for planning (again) and the neighbouring retail premises have been vacated by Sleepmasters and Maplin to make way for the development.

Are there any renders of the new Bus Station yet?

;p

We probably wont hear anything on Church Place for quite some time. Ask Developments have (sensibly) slipped into the shadows amidst the downturn and are looking to sell the apartments they have already constructed before embarking on any new scheme. I am confident about this development though.

Winckley Square is due to begin construction next year.

Detailed plans on the CBD are due to be released next year, although things are a bit vague at the moment. However, council leaders have said they are confident enough about this scheme to say it will be completed in conjunction with Tithebarn. This will most likely press ahead though. This scheme isn't a 'nice to do' for Preston, its an absolute must. The office accommodation in Preston is currently poor, very poor. There is little or no Grade A office space in the city centre despite there being high demand.
The first phase of the CBD, the block which is due to go where Staples currently is has been submitted for planning (again) and the neighbouring retail premises have been vacated by Sleepmasters and Maplin to make way for the development.

Alright thanks.The CBD development could really change preston,for the better.

Plans to transform a shabby part of Preston centre into a modern office quarter could be hit with a multi-million pound bill.

Network Rail has said it will not sell Preston Council its depot in Corporation Street unless the authority agrees to find a new home for its base – despite it being part of the site for the proposed Central Business District (CBD).

They said the cost of relocating the sidings and maintenance depot it has on the four-acre site would run to "several million pounds".

The Evening Post revealed last year that the council had the site on its £3m shopping list of locations key to its Tithebarn, CBD and Gateways project.

A Network Rail spokesman said: "Use of the sidings is due to intensify as work progresses on the upgrade of the West Coast Main Line.

"In addition, the adjoining depot has an ongoing and future requirement for the sidings to access the rail network.

"A further obstacle to relocation is the lack of alternative local rail connected sites.

"Even if a suitable site could be identified, the costs involved with relocating the facilities would make redevelopment of the site unviable, even with substantial grant assistance."

The Corporation Street site has been earmarked as part of the CBD plans, which have focused on the area around Fox Street and Hill Street in the city centre, including proposed hotel development.

In a separate development, the council has received a site suggestion form from Network Rail, requesting a change of use for the depot site to the Local Development Framework.

The authority has asked for suggested changes from landowners as part of a consultation which could lead to uses for chunks of land being changed, easing planning regulations for certain developments.

It has received 71 suggestions from landowners, with Network Rail's being for a change from maintenance use and a business depot to a site earmarked for a mixed-use retail, residential and office development.

However, the spokesman said its commercial property team had no knowledge of the request.

Are there any renders of the new Bus Station yet?
You can see a couple of basic renders here:
http://marcinwiacek.com/ under 'portfolio' then number 14
and the plans from the planning application:
http://www.preston.gov.uk/General.asp?nc=B1HJ&id=7193

Just a suggestion for a rail depot relocation. I don't know if anyone else has noticed, but going south out of Preston station, they have been doing some work to clear away overgrowth next to the line. Uncovered from all the greenery must be about 10/15 sidings! They clearly haven't been used in years, but with a bit of work there is loads of potential space there for trains, probably more than at Corporation Street. I'll try and get a pic tomorrow when I get the train to work.

Hmm. If theres as much space as you say, all that would be needed would be a new building and a car park, which would be what, £1m, possibly a bit less. Not as much as they make out anyway.

This may seem a really really dumb question. But why do they need rail sidings in city centres? Surely they could have them outside of them?

Winckley Square is due to begin construction next year.

Easy tiger! The Planning Application is due to be submitted in March. There is signinifcant opposition to the scheme as proposed (though not against the principles of improvement to the Square) with letters being sent off to local MPs and questions being raised about the actions of PCC's Executive Officers and in the way in which the competition was run. I expect the opposition to be forceful enough to at the very least delay the start of construction, and it could go all the way to a Public Enqiry.

If that example had been the only one I posted, I would accept the criticism.

However I posted a range of examples, showing the diversity of options available, for human-scale living and working, and for larger 'iconic' buildings (seems every new build has to be 'iconic' these days). They were just a very small sample of a much larger trend.

I don't neccessarily agree with every dot or comma of everything these people have done - I'm using them to show which direction the wind is blowing, not which boat I'm suggesting we sail on.

The one thing you missed with the buildings you suggested is context. Bar the skyscraper none of those are fit for being in a city. As for the skyscraper its the most gimmicy one you posted. Also all of those buildings are different styles so how you can call it one i dont know. None of which matched the styles of the architects you posted either. Its abit like saying the Harris Museum and The Light buildings are the same because they are steel framed.

The way that i believe the wind will go is denser cities. As land dissapears, both through flooding and urban sprawl, the only way to go is going to be up. Hopefully the mock tudor suburbia will die eitherway :)

I've received a copy of the following email:

If you check the latest issue of ‘Private Eye’ (No. 1222, October 31) you can read ‘Piloti’’s column, “Nooks and Corners”, which robustly criticises plans to redevelop Winckley Square.

He calls it “Another example of large sums of public money being available to spoil something”.

He says that the proposed fountains are unlikely to work for long: “the city council maintains the gardens”.

He ends his well-informed article by sighing “Roll on the recession”.

Preston & South Ribble Civic Trust’s chair (me) says:

”I’m not surprised that the Winckley Square plans are being criticised nationally. The Council’s careless and complacent management of this project creates a poor image for potential Tithebarn investors. The sooner bruised municipal pride gives way to common sense and courtesy to the Square’s co-owners the better.”

It was only a matter of time before Private Eye started focussing on Preston, it could only be a matter of time before our city's leaders and the huge gap between their overblown hype and the reality of life here become a national laughing stock.

Am i the only one who doesnt get what all the fuss is about the redevelopment of Winkley Square. Not like they are building anything on it.

Am i the only one who doesnt get what all the fuss is about the redevelopment of Winkley Square. Not like they are building anything on it.
It's a fundamentally BAD scheme with the designers determined to insert overblown, unsympathetic additions. I call it having a self indulgent design wank, with no empathy for the history or context of the space - but since the designers had never even been to Preston before entering the competition, I suppose this is to be expected. (I can't understand how they even got on the shortlist, to be homest) Actually, I'm not always averse to "unsympathetic", if it is of quality, well designed and functional. However, here such elements are badly designed, destroying the flavour of the space and the steps and ramped path from Winckley St simply do not work for an external space.
The one element I would congratulate the designers for is in seeing the scheme as more than just the space inside the railings and some of the surrounding work up to the elevations of the surrounding buildings is good. But I pray that this scheme gets kicked in to touch before a sod is turned, and a completely fresh start is made by someone else; me preferably.

What are they actually planning on doing?

With regards to Winckley Square, apart from the addition of a fountain I think they should just tidy it up and retain its old charm.
Also, I found a few snippets from the latest Preston Publicity newsletter http://www.preston-city.com/files/news/Publicity%2009.pdf
* The owners of the Fox Street hotel want to be open for Summer 2009 (well, close the car park and get building, then)
* Warner Estates have put a £24,000,000 price tag on the Fishergate extension (4 storey department store plus 12 stores) and anticipate it will be completed for the Guild
* Avenham pavilion is officially opened
* Preston has come out tops in a survey of places people like to shop in Lancashire, after their hometowns

On the subject of the CBD, I heard yesterday that UCLAN will be selling Livesey House (disgusting grey block next to Mercury Flux). With Maplin and Sleepmasters also gone, we should see much quicker progress with this scheme than we did with Tithebarn.

On the subject of the CBD, I heard yesterday that UCLAN will be selling Livesey House (disgusting grey block next to Mercury Flux). With Maplin and Sleepmasters also gone, we should see much quicker progress with this scheme than we did with Tithebarn.

Other than complexity of scheme and land ownership, I ask what make you say this? Any inside info?

Other than complexity of scheme and land ownership, I ask what make you say this? Any inside info?

Well, the council did say they were hoping to have this up and running before Tithebarn was complete... :D

God Bless Google. I finally found some somewhat enlightening images of the proposed market area for Tithebarn: http://www.gands.co.uk/page/projects/greig_amp_stephenson/38,202,1,0.html

Am i the only one who doesnt get what all the fuss is about the redevelopment of Winkley Square. Not like they are building anything on it.

Depends on your point of view. Tark obviously has his opnions and is prepared to back them up. Riversider hates it because it is changing/developing something in Preston. They could propose anything and he'd find reason to criticise.

Personally, I quite liked the look of the plans for WS, but what do I know?

I like the look of the market proposals.

God Bless Google. I finally found some somewhat enlightening images of the proposed market area for Tithebarn: http://www.gands.co.uk/page/projects/greig_amp_stephenson/38,202,1,0.html

Fantastic find :)
Those proposals look stunning!

Cant wait to see the markets tarted up. They have looked rubbish for as long as i can remember. Like the way that they have moves some traders on to the streets. Hopefully this means pedestrianization of the area :)

Though please, please, please dont paint all of the metal work green. Please.

Those market renders look pretty competent - I hope the mix of permanent internal and temporary external traders can keep the flavour of the traditional "value" market whilst offering a greatly improved shopping experience.

It's an architecturally tricky problem, as maintaining the aesthetic of these two great and much loved Victorian sheds is crucial in conserving the contibution they make to the historical and urban fabric of Preston. Well done, and by offering a wind and rain free environment, the markets should be very successful going into the future and become a real unique selling point for city centre's trading offer as a whole.

So celebrating the structural cast iron heritage and not confusing it with new additional fabric is the essence of the design problem, and my main concern with the renders is demonstrated in G and S's Image No2, the market hall viewed from Starch House Square. Here we see the glass curtain wall being formed in patent glazing with metal transoms and mullions framing the glass sheets. This creates a very visible additional 'layer' of structure, and therefore confuses one's appreciation of the original tie-trusses in the roof structure from the outside.

A much more successul solution would be to use Planar Glass, where the glass is frameless and supported by glass fins behind the external envelope. The glass panes are separated by a simple silicone joint and are tied together by stainless steel 'spiders' at the corners and, if required, at intervals along the edges. The only local example I can think of using Planar Glass (and it's not a particularly good one, but it does demonstrate the technology) is the newspaper shop in Preston Station at the bottom of the main entrance ramp. Unfortunately, Planar Glass is around twice the cost per unit area of patent glazing systems and I fear we will have to accept this aesthetically poorer solution in the refurbishment of the Market Halls. Over all though, it should be a vast improvement, and let's bring it on!

Only problem with using the fins is that you reduce the retail space within the building. Not a big fan of them 2bh, they have them on St Helens Central. Eventhough they cost more i think they look cheap. Do see what you mean about confusing the materials. Perhaps if it was a different material or even colour to the columns that might work.

I found this on Kenney Moore property group's website promoting the Fishergate Centre:
Proposed 200,000 sq ft extension, to be constructed over the next 3 years, to be anchored by a new 20,000 sq ft Next.
This would be a great addition to the Fishergate Centre and help keep this end of town going with Tithebarn at the other side.

For those who saw the original competition winning proposals but not as amended for the future Planning Submission, the following changes have been made:

The scheme to be progressed will include the following amendments which were agreed by the Selection Panel following public consultation;
> the two areas of bound gravel will be omitted
> the footpath linking Cross Street and Garden Street will be increased in width to 3metres
> the artwork letters will be omitted
> reference to a 'performance area' will be changed to read ' informal, hard surfaced area with seating'
Inclusion of a multi-jet fountain, as per the original design, is still proposed.
It is anticipated that occasional small scale public events such as carol concerts and heritage tours could take place in the square.

It was agreed to amend the description of the space from 'performance area' as this had been misinterpreted by a few as meaning that major events would be held in the Square- this has never been the intention.


The height of the hurdles which the proposed scheme has to cross may just have been raised. The application by P&SR Civic Trust, for WS to be registered [i.e. ‘listed’ on the English Heritage Registrar of Historic Parks & Gardens] has passed Stage 1 of the process. An inspector will visit the Square and contact the owners shortly.

Riversider hates it because it is changing/developing something in Preston. They could propose anything and he'd find reason to criticise.

This is nonsense. In fact Tark has put into words far better than I could why the Winckley Square plans are so unacceptable to so many people.

I don't oppose change where it is sympathetic to Preston's history and Preston's people. In most of the proposals that come from PCC, Preston's history is an inconvenience, and Prestons people are an afterthought.

The Tithebarn is becoming very important to Preston as we head into recession/depression. It's one thing that could keep our city going while the rest of the country goes to the wall. Tithebarn still feels really insecure, and it's a great shame that it means our city's future now depends on the whims of a few billionaires.

The market proposals must have an impact on the rents that stallholders are being charged, many will not be able to trade if their rents are increased. The building in some ways may be 'too smart' to be a market - it looks like a place you could only enter wearing designer sunglasses and gucci shoes - hardly the demographic that Preston market depends on.

Its Preston, dont you mean nock off designer sunglasses and gucci shoes :)

Its Preston, dont you mean nock off designer sunglasses and gucci shoes

Exactly. The developers and planners have a strange idea about WHO they are designing Preston for - they seem to imagine us as a set of people who have been sucked from the pencil of an over-cappucino'd consultant, that wear power suits have slicked back hair, carry blackberries and build our nests out of chrome and glass.

There may be a few people round like that, but the majority of people from Preston bear no resemblance to it.

We're in big danger of building a shiny fantasy village in the city centre, surrounded by disintegrating estates full of people whose lives are chaotic and desperate.

Whats wrong with making our city centre more attractive to attract the more wealthy into the city. I really dont see what your problem is with making the city look better and generally improving it.

Plus, who the hell still slicks back their hair? You living in the 80's riversider?

The market proposals must have an impact on the rents that stallholders are being charged, many will not be able to trade if their rents are increased. The building in some ways may be 'too smart' to be a market -
One would hope that to facilitate the development and in the interests of fairness, the existing permanent stallholders would have first refusal on new units, offered at complarble rates for the first 2 years say. A much improved market would hopefully result in much greater turnover and therefore profit to the traders. In the long term stall rents could be raised to reflect this improvement to all concerned; it's called "turnover rent".
It's a shame you think something can be "too smart" for the general public. All decent people prefer better surroundings in my opinion. What will keep the atmosphere of the market is the relatively tight passageways between the stalls, and the nature of the wears, many of which are allocated for fish, meat, dairy and fruit & veg and non-food.

who the hell still slicks back their hair? You living in the 80's riversider?
It's the designers of this strange fantasy city centre that are living in the 80's, which is why their renders are full of such power-suited anachronisms.

They haven't thought for one instant about the economic, environmental and social challenges that face us in the Twentyfirst Century, or indeed about who the people of Preston actually are.

You get people in suits in Preston. I have seen them. Its a trick all companies use with renders, they make the place look nicer than it actually is. The renders have to sell an idea. Your not gonna stick a chav in one now are you.

Preston is the place to be it seems, lol.. only other week I was stood next to Dara O' Brien by the station.. and today whilst was waiting near the ticket office MP Jack Straw trudged passed with his lil entourage.. :|

Preston is the place to be it seems, lol.. only other week I was stood next to Dara O' Brien by the station.. and today whilst was waiting near the ticket office MP Jack Straw trudged passed with his lil entourage.. :|

Aha! We're moving up in the world! So long Riversider! :D

yay!

New railway station planned in city revamp

A new railway station and six new city park-and-rides could be built in and around Preston to cope with an expected rise in the region's population.
A station would be built in Cottam with park-and-rides set up at M6 Junction 31a, Broughton, the Tickled Trout, Penwortham Way, Cuerden Green and Riversway.

A new link road connecting Bamber Bridge and Lostock Hall and a Preston city centre shuttle bus would also be built as part of the ambitious plans to transform Preston.

Other railway stations could be set up in Buckshaw Village, Coppull and Midge Hall while Whittingham, Cottam, Longridge, Leyland, Farington, Chorley town centre, Buckshaw Village and Euxton are expected to see a boom in population.

The plans are unveiled in the Central Lancashire Preferred Core Strategy which sets out the need for improved environment, healthier communities and better jobs for local people in the next 18 years.

And it also claims that by then, Preston will be a well established alternative to Manchester and Liverpool.

Andrew Cockerall, Preston Council's principal planning officer, said: "At the moment, the document is a preferred strategy. It's certainly not set in stone and these are the sort of things we are looking for feedback on. So far, most of the feedback has been generally positive.

"Some people have concerns about specific aspects like what might or might not be happening in their street."

The number of people living in Central Lancashire – including Preston, South Ribble and Chorley – is expected to rise from 342,300 in 2006 to 374,600 in 2026 as people live longer.

Mr Cockerall added: "The development of this core strategy has been going for about two years. It's designed to be fairly broad.

"For funding, it doesn't go into that level of detail but it would be a mix of city, national and local government and developer contributions."

By 2026, it is also hoped Chorley will be an "accessible, contemporary market town and Leyland will be a successfully regenerated centre, with a good range of shops, improved environment and services to meet the needs of the local areas."

Coun Neil Cartwright, cabinet member for development, said: "This is the first time the planning system has gone from grassroots upwards.

"It's about getting a full picture of what our options are and what people want."

http://www.lep.co.uk/news/New-railway-station-planned-in.4653435.jp

Designs for new-look flag market revealed

The potential future of a piece of Preston's proud history has been unveiled - and you can have a say.
Designers have come up with a host of visions for transforming the 800-year-old Flag Market, including a giant TV screen, water fountain, electronic banners and even glass water walls.

Starting on Monday (November 3), members of the public will be given a chance to make their views known during a week-long consultation.

It follows criticism of the handling of the planned £3m revamp of Winckley Square which was branded "daft" and "self-indulgent".

Mike Brogan, assistant director of city projects at Preston Council, said: "It's going to be the premier space in Preston for the foreseeable future and we need to do a good job on it."

Six design companies have given a different interpretation of how they see the future of the historic square.

A judging panel met in private last Wednesday to see presentations of each of the designs and picked their favourite.

Following political pressure the public will now be asked to give their comments on the designs, with the feedback used to help decide what happens next.

Mr Brogan said: "We want to go out to get the views of the people of Preston as part of the decision-making process.

"We would like them to make comments on the scheme so we can take that into account."

Consultation will take place on the Flag Market on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday between 11am and 3pm.

It continues in the Harris Museum on Thursday and Friday.

Coun Anthony Gornall, for Preston Council, said the panel was keen on designs with "no gimmicks" with the Harris building as a "focal point".

http://www.lep.co.uk/flagmarket/designs-for-newlook-flag-market.4653337.jp

Maybe I'm missing something but why do we need change in this area to the actual space itself?? I like it as it is.. lol... I don't see how putting big screens and contemporary pieces infront of the harris will work? Obviously its hard to tell from the little thumbnails on the LEP, so would need to see them properly.

Maybe I'm missing something but why do we need change in this area to the actual space itself?? I like it as it is.. lol... I don't see how putting big screens and contemporary pieces infront of the harris will work? Obviously its hard to tell from the little thumbnails on the LEP, so would need to see them properly.

I would like to see a return of the old steps at the base of the Harris. You see what affect the new set up at Liverpool One as done for the area, it create's a gathering/meeting point. At the moment the giant wall seperates the Harris and the flag market.

Big TV screen? Great idea! The area is quite bland at the moment, if nothing it will at least give it a bit of life.

Whats wrong with the flag market as it is now? If it aint broke, dont fix it.

Old steps, there have never been steps at the bottom of the Harris.

If you click view gallery you can see the bigger versions.
Would either go for design one or four. Like how 4 makes the market flat, more usable for summer cafes etc.

All the others are crap, especially the one with the glass blocks. Oh and i doubt the TV screen would happen, it blocks peoples apartments. Also designe 3 is lazy, they took a picture of the ditch in More London and submitted it as a design. Lazy, lazy lazy!

From these i really really do hate conceptual crap.

Old steps, there have never been steps at the bottom of the Harris.

I was sure I seen an old photograph a couple of years ago of the Harris pre-1900's with steps.

Guess not.

I don't oppose change where it is sympathetic to Preston's history and Preston's people.

So, nothing then.

The building in some ways may be 'too smart' to be a market - it looks like a place you could only enter wearing designer sunglasses and gucci shoes - hardly the demographic that Preston market depends on.

Just when I think you can't come up with any more brainless drivel, you do!!

Just how the new market can be considered "too smart" is beyond me, as is the thought that anyone wants to retain the existing area.

As for the ridiculous claim about what the designers have filled Preston with, guess what, they are only represntative people to give an idea of a scheme. Obviously, if you'd prefer tracksuited, Elizabeth Duke equipped, work-shy chavs scoffing Greggs Pasties in your proposals, well that is your choice!

As for the Flag Market (Obviously RS will oppose anything) all it could use is levelling off. Nothing else really needed.

I was sure I seen an old photograph a couple of years ago of the Harris pre-1900's with steps.

Guess not.

Its always been the way it is now. Bar the entrances which used to be used so the wealthy with their carraiges could drive directly into the entrance and be dropped off in the building.

I don't really want to see the Flag Market changed to the extent that some of the architects are proposing. A clean up and a leveling off would be more than enough. A big screen to cover that disgusting facade above Pizza Hut would be welcome though. It would also help re-establish the square as a gathering place.

Surely it'd be more feasible and 'in keeping' to have a big screen in the middle of the Tithebarn, integrated into the facade of one of the new flagship store, I just don't see it looking right in that area.. unless they were planning on having one the dimensions that would cover the cubic.. lol.

I don't really want to see the Flag Market changed to the extent that some of the architects are proposing. A clean up and a leveling off would be more than enough. A big screen to cover that disgusting facade above Pizza Hut would be welcome though. It would also help re-establish the square as a gathering place.

My thoughts exactly. I have to say though I'm frankly horrified at some of the designs put forward, tacky isnt the word... I'd go with number four and i hope the Pizza hut screen idea accura talks of happens too, quite right about the nasty front wall there.

I think all the proposed designs for the flagmarket are truly wonderful, innovative and exciting. They don't look anything at all like the doodling of first year architecture students on placement let loose on speculative competition entries, and our wise and democratic council officials wouldn't treat them with such seriousness if they were. The square was in the past used for bear baiting and dog fighting, so a huge TV screen and glass walls are perfectly in keeping with the place's history.

Anyone who questions these designs in any way is an obvious enemy of progress. Forward to the New Preston/CLANCSCITY.

TBH riversider I don't think much of the flag market proposals either. I dont really think the flag market needs any major changes other than possibly levelling it off. I'm sure a big screen could be placed in front of lime/lowthian house if there was a great demand for one.

Btw, did anybody see a brilliant little article in lepbusinessweek about Preston's future skyline?

I think all the proposed designs for the flagmarket are truly wonderful, innovative and exciting. They don't look anything at all like the doodling of first year architecture students on placement let loose on speculative competition entries, and our wise and democratic council officials wouldn't treat them with such seriousness if they were. The square was in the past used for bear baiting and dog fighting, so a huge TV screen and glass walls are perfectly in keeping with the place's history.

Anyone who questions these designs in any way is an obvious enemy of progress. Forward to the New Preston/CLANCSCITY.

So you want bear baiting and dog fighting on the square again?

has anyone seen this and do you understand what it means. are buliding heights in feet or metres, my laymans eyes are unable to make any sense of it.

http://www.preston.gov.uk/General.asp?nc=B1HJ&id=7193

TBH riversider I don't think much of the flag market proposals either. I dont really think the flag market needs any major changes other than possibly levelling it off. I'm sure a big screen could be placed in front of lime/lowthian house if there was a great demand for one.

Btw, did anybody see a brilliant little article in lepbusinessweek about Preston's future skyline?

I didn't see this article and can't seem to find it on the website. What did it have to say?

has anyone seen this and do you understand what it means. are buliding heights in feet or metres, my laymans eyes are unable to make any sense of it.

http://www.preston.gov.uk/General.asp?nc=B1HJ&id=7193

From what I can make out, they are applying for permission to propose buildings up to 80m in height. Anything above 65m would be Preston's tallest building.

but do the heights suggest otherwise? I shamefully can't read this drawing correctly either, lol :|

With the road heights being projected at say 30-35.. does that not mean the shaded areas are going upto 50m? Or, as the legend suggests.. these heights + N meters.. (ie. 30m road height + 90m).. I mean there is no aim to have such tall buildings within the masterplan??

I think all the proposed designs for the flagmarket are truly wonderful, innovative and exciting. They don't look anything at all like the doodling of first year architecture students on placement let loose on speculative competition entries, and our wise and democratic council officials wouldn't treat them with such seriousness if they were.

I went and examined the exposition of entries at lunchtime today on the Flag Market. I've only written the first five sentences of my "public consultation response" so far as I had other work commitments this afternoon and evening (I'm here so late tonight because of curiosity about what folk are saying). I'll post my response verbatim here when it's done for us all to critique in the next few days.
Elsewhere on this thread it's well documented that I have a totally opposite view to Riversider on the Riverworks proposals and many other issues, but much (but certainly not all) of his ironic comments above are not lost on me.
But to correct matters of fact - at least as I remember them - school children and sixth formers (sorry, that's how they were refered to in my day and I don't understand all this 'Year XX' bollocks) go "on placement", and university students studying architecture are not required to go and work in an office until they have at least a Batchelors Degree; first year or otherwise. Furthermore, all the entrants for the competition were from Lanscape Architecture practices, and no Architects were involved. I actually have an admiration for Landsape Architects because, unlike doctors and dentists, their educational course is the only one that is longer than that of an Architect (minimum 8 as opposed to 7½yrs) before they receive their Chartership to their accredited Profession.

So you want bear baiting and dog fighting on the square again?
Such practices are unacceptable in our modern civilised society - a large cage for all in 'cage fighting' and a pole for dancing would be much more in keeping with our more refined cultural and ethical sensibilities, and would fit beautifully with some of the other proposed amendments to the flagmarket. They are absolutely neccessary if we are to 'put Preston on the map' and compete effectively with cities like Liverpool, Manchester, London, Paris, Moscow, Beijing and New York.

Thanks for the clarification about the training of the Landscape Architects who created these amazing Flagmarket Concepts Tark - it's good to know those 8 years of training have not gone to waste...

From what I can make out, they are applying for permission to propose buildings up to 80m in height. Anything above 65m would be Preston's tallest building.

I would tend to agree. From what I can make out (and I am working from assumption), LVL is sea level, so LVL+35.14 would be 35.14m above sea level. I'm guessing that the building heights going off the building heights key would be the total height of the buildings roof above sea level, and that would mean that Tithebarn's tallest could be 60 or so metres.
I'm just speculating, however. I can't really understand fully what it means.

Such practices are unacceptable in our modern civilised society - a large cage for all in 'cage fighting' and a pole for dancing would be much more in keeping with our more refined cultural and ethical sensibilities, and would fit beautifully with some of the other proposed amendments to the flagmarket. They are absolutely neccessary if we are to 'put Preston on the map' and compete effectively with cities like Liverpool, Manchester, London, Paris, Moscow, Beijing and New York.

Thanks for the clarification about the training of the Landscape Architects who created these amazing Flagmarket Concepts Tark - it's good to know those 8 years of training have not gone to waste...

People like you who think you know better than people who have actually studied into these things and some how think that you know better really annoy me. People like you who think that they should have there say in anything built are responsible for the shit architecture that gets thrown up. Some things might not be to your taste but that doesnt mean that they are bad and everyone hates them. It just means that you do. People like you are the reason that projects get watered down because they arnt "in keeping."

CJ, I find it strange that you should respond so vehemently to my appraisal of the quality of the various proposals for the flagmarket, and how it attests to the excellent 8 years of training the competition entrants have received, particularly when you yourself said of them:

All the others are crap, especially the one with the glass blocks. Oh and i doubt the TV screen would happen, it blocks peoples apartments. Also designe 3 is lazy, they took a picture of the ditch in More London and submitted it as a design. Lazy, lazy lazy!

From these i really really do hate conceptual crap.

Why do you think that it is OK for people like you to "have there say in anything built", but not for me?

I am guessing your post was sarcasm. Or are you actually supporting the development of Preston. Didnt think so.

I criticised 3 of the designs and gave reasons as to why. The ditch for being lazy, because it is. The weird conceptual red thing, and the glass walls. You just blanky think they are all rubbish. What was it, look like they were designed by a first year architecture student? No matter what is proposed for anywhere you will and do pick holes in it because you seem to think you know better than the people who design them and are completly against change. Apart from FG2, for some reason you like that.

You said People like you who think that they should have there say in anything built are responsible for the sh*t architecture that gets thrown up.

We've actually (for once) been invited to 'have our say' about this scheme. I use the flagmarket regularly, finding it one of the few decent places left in Preston. It actually has places older people and families can sit without having to buy frothy coffee or otherwise spend their hard earned - no sign of places to sit in any of the pictures in this predetermined 'consultation' (benches disrupt those beautiful clean architectural lines).

My feeling is that it is arrogant developers and their political friends, who think they can throw up any kind of building without regard for place or people, and decide everything in secret in backrooms behind closed doors, then surround their proposals with bombastic hype and claims that they somehow represent 'progress' are the ones responsible for the series of architectural disasters that have befallen Preston.

My feeling is that it is arrogant developers and their political friends, who think they can throw up any kind of building without regard for place or people, and decide everything in secret in backrooms behind closed doors, then surround their proposals with bombastic hype and claims that they somehow represent 'progress' are the ones responsible for the series of architectural disasters that have befallen Preston.

And yet people like you, who are supposedly so passionate about such things, never choose to follow a career path that gets them actually involved in such process.

I guess it is far easier to pay no attention to detail, show no interest in the detail and just prefer to b*tch and whine from afar.

Ironic the comment about THEM being arrogant. I guess they HAVE read some of your posts and got some big tips on the skill....

You said

We've actually (for once) been invited to 'have our say' about this scheme. I use the flagmarket regularly, finding it one of the few decent places left in Preston. It actually has places older people and families can sit without having to buy frothy coffee or otherwise spend their hard earned - no sign of places to sit in any of the pictures in this predetermined 'consultation' (benches disrupt those beautiful clean architectural lines).


The flag market as it is just isnt used. Its a dead space at the centre of the city which is used the odd time in the year for fairs and such. Im suggesting that the best option would be to level it off. Then the steps create seating and as a flat space its much more usable. Performances, cafes etc. The steps will also double up as seating. Lets face it you dont need all the steps for access. One of the worst ideas would be to put benches all over it, as you suggest. This would act as clutter. One of the best things about the market is that its an open space, and should remain so. I think your getting confused here. This is a landscape they are altering. It has nothing to do with architecture. Architecture is buildings. No buildings are to be affected. Though i really which they would 'affect' pizza hut.

You said

My feeling is that it is arrogant developers and their political friends, who think they can throw up any kind of building without regard for place or people, and decide everything in secret in backrooms behind closed doors, then surround their proposals with bombastic hype and claims that they somehow represent 'progress' are the ones responsible for the series of architectural disasters that have befallen Preston.


My feeling is that to involve the public at ever stage of the design process is just uneconomical. Plans change all the time from conception to completion and to involve the public at every stage would waste time and effort. Delaying things further so that eventually nothing would happen. That is why we have a planning department. People who are paid and know what the hell they are talking about. If people in Preston were consulted at every stage then nothing would ever happen.

"You can build that there. It impends on building X from view Y. How about you tone it down and make it less eyecatching. More inkeeping."

"bland nondescript box it is then?"

"yay"

You counting the Bus Station as an architectural disaster?

Where were you, riversider, when the victorian buildings along Tithebarn street were demolished to make way for the bus station. Surely the bus station destroyed more of Preston's heritage than it really created. Whilst I agree that nothing really big needs to be done to the flag market apart from levelling it off, I dont criticise the work of the architects that designed those visions, or the architects themselves (I somewhat resent that by the way). Would you care to design something better?

CJ does have a point about people such as yourself Riversider. If a proposal is too 'outlandish', people complain about it. It is then dulled down and then people complain it is too boring, but what is it to be? Architecture, as I have said before, should be about pushing limits, however whenever a design does push limits, people complain. Thats why so much of today's architecture is boring.

Edit:, having said that, I was just reminded by CJ that you like FG2, the least interesting proposals for preston, from an architectural standpoint anyway. Why is this?

My feeling is that to involve the public at every stage of the design process is just uneconomical. Plans change all the time from conception to completion and to involve the public at every stage would waste time and effort. Delaying things further so that eventually nothing would happen. That is why we have a planning department. People who are paid and know what the hell they are talking about. If people in Preston were consulted at every stage then nothing would ever happen.
If we change "uneconomical" to "impractical", I totally agree with your sentiment CJ. This view could be seen as somewhat totalitarian by some in the way you have put it however, so can I attempt a metaphore?

I fancy a nice ribeye steak tonight. I could go out and have a lovely, delicious and tender one from an excellent restaurant with a superb reputation.
Alternatively, I could rear a calf myself. I'd have to spend a long time getting to know about animal husbandry, farming, vetenary science, humane slaughtering techniques, butchery, meat processing and handling, and greatly improve my cullenary skills. This would leave me little time to have become an architect and I'd probably have died of starvation first.
Just a thought.

Creative writing was never my forte :)

Which doesnt help with crits :(

Tark - your point about ribeye steaks is interesting. There are a whole host of professionals who are engaged in the supply chain that ends with a ribeye steak on your restaurant plate. The key thing here is that cooks make ribeye steaks because PEOPLE LIKE THEM. The top chefs provide good quality ingredients and follow simple recipes that allow the natural flavours of the food to emerge, they leave gimmickry and bombast to lesser individuals. Cooks who insist on making 'cutting edge' food that nobody finds acceptable, because they think it is 'better' for their own esoteric reasons, quickly find themselves going out of business.

In architecture, the direct relationship between the producer and the ultimate consumer is absent, mitigated as it is by a layer of bureacracy tasked to spend our money on our behalf, which is why democracy and openness in the process is so important.

Nowhere have I suggested scattering benches all over the flagmarket. I was speaking up for the benches that are present now. Architects, landscapers and council officials may feel it is appropriate to make old or disabled people sit on cold stone steps for the sake of clean lines and open spaces, I do not.

FG2 - what I have said about FG2 is that this development has not been accompanied by the inflated hype that surrounds Tithebarn. They have been factual and honest about what they are doing, and are making no pretence that it will transform our lives by some strange alchemic force, just that it will be a bigger shopping centre than what is there now. I find this comparative honesty and straightforwardness refreshing.

Enough musing on the food chain from me - other than the observation that architects often feel as if they are bottom of the built equivalent. Frankly, if it wasn't for planners, the Building Regs, the Health & Safety Executive, clients, politicians, the weather and a zillion other things we need to get rid of before lining up the majority of the Great Unwashed against a wall, the world would be a better place. On the other hand, I am also minded to agree with those who posit that every day an architect should be singled out at shot by firing squad as an example to the rest.

Anyway, as promised above, here's my submission to the Powers That Be on the Flag Market Competition - which over all was as disappointing as I expected to be; but that's Preston for you.


Dear Sirs,
I inspected the six competition entries in PCC’s Information Van on the Flag Market on 4th November and wish to make the following comments and observations.
Generally:
It strikes me that the objective of the competition is to find the design practice which brings the best quality of thought and ideas in its response to the Brief. I believe that this is exemplified in the manner of their presentation, sensibly limited to 2no A1 boards. The practice which can best communicate their approach in such a presentation to the public is likely to empathise best with the community in the implementation of their ideas and thereby provide a lasting, meaningful and beloved public legacy.
Several entrants opted to spend up to half of their presentation in demonstrating what they had learned about Preston’s history and the context of the Flag Market within it. This is presumably because they knew very little about Preston in general or the Flag Market in particular prior to being invited to submit a competition entry. This being the case, it is particularly disappointing that in showing what “facts” they had learned, there appeared to be no evidence of engaging with the people of Preston to attempt to discover what the existing space means to its citizens and visitors, how they currently use it and how they might wish to use it. It is perhaps not surprising that the entrants who spent so much of their time showing us what they had found out about the Flag Market had little time left to think of good ideas for the space and the quality of those ideas is demonstrably poorer for it.
My response to the entries:
No 1 A number of typographical errors on the display boards demonstrated to me a lack of attention to detail. The smaller and larger spaces seem poorly defined and the intelligibility of the scheme to the user is weak. The proposals appear to be on a monumental rather than human scale with little of utility to an individual or family group.
No 2 By a long way the best presented and most easily understood scheme. The design makes a bold attempt to redefine the Square and in my opinion does so successfully, with both unity and flexibility. Careful consideration has been made of how the Flag Market could be used by day and night, with equal care in attention to the detailing and materials. The scheme is the most pedestrian friendly and does the most to remove unwanted motor vehicles. There are many good ideas within the scheme providing subtly integrated points of interest, and thereby a wide variety of points from which people may appreciate and use the space. I believe this design team has the wherewithal for providing Preston with a city centre space which could be regarded in the future on a par with some of the best in Europe.
No 3 I like the linear water feature which provides physical linkage between the Flag Market and the Guild Hall, though I could not understand how the main water feature in the Square would work. This feature would not be compatible with the mass public gatherings which the Flag Market occasionally hosts. The scheme does nothing to remove vehicles from the Square and the space as a whole seems poorly defined
No 4 Despite much analysis, the sense of space and place seems lost. There seem to be no ideas to enhance the civic reputation or feeling of the Flag Market.
No 5 The presentation is a whirl of meaningless analysis and concepts which add up to almost nothing. I fear that incoherent drawings would lead to the creation of an incoherent space.
No 6 Another entry in which I failed to understand what the designers are attempting to achieve. There seem to be few ideas, other than to add clutter and destroy some cherished existing sightlines.
Additional observation:
An established tenet of urban design is that a building can only be as good as the space around it. It therefore follows that an urban space can only be as good as the buildings around it. The recent investment in Crystal House / Cubic means that the much longed for removal of this awful edifice, which at 10 stories high robs the Flag Market of much of its potentially warming southern sunlight, will not happen in the foreseeable future. The elevations of all the buildings on Cheapside are collectively also an anathema to civic pride. Until the City of Preston takes the bold decision to raze everything from Anchor Court to Fishergate and start again, the Flag Market can never be all it should be. A small tear may be shed for the loss of the cute little Yates’ jewellers, but mere old age in buildings should never be confused with quality.
I assure the City Vision Team that I have no knowledge of the authorship of any of the six competition entries.
Yours faithfully,










etc

I use the flagmarket regularly, finding it one of the few decent places left in Preston.
If there are so few decent places left in Preston then why do you so frequently and blindly object to redevelopments?

Because it has been redevelopments that destroyed the rest of the decent places in Preston Accura.

I've just seen the pictures of the glassed-in market in the LEP, somehow it looks much better on paper than the images I've seen before on the internet, even though, they're identical images, I'm not sure why.

Tark's critique of the 6 options is very well argued - I'll look a lot more closely at option 2 now.

Tark - My problem with lining architects up against a wall, is that I'd probably have objected to the wall being built in the first place.

Tark - My problem with lining architects up against a wall, is that I'd probably have objected to the wall being built in the first place.
Yeah, especially if the wall had a river behind it! But if there was a chance of the shots weakening that wall to the point of distruction and possibly restoring etc etc etc :lol: . . .

It looks as though my wish may be granted as the Brookhouse group re-submit a planning application ;)
Mixed use development incorporating a retail store (food and non-food), shop and commercial units (Classes A1-A5 inclusive), a hotel, car parking (including a multi-storey car park) and ancillary works to provide access and servicing facilities following demolition of existing buildings (outline application)

Because it has been redevelopments that destroyed the rest of the decent places in Preston Accura.


May we have some examples?

Regarding the Flag Market proposals, are they online somewhere. I have only seen the tiny images on the LEP, not enough to properly comment on.

No doubt Riversider will use the Public Hall demolition and the building of the Ringway of examples...

Both due to LCC which thanks to South Ribble we are still stuck with.

No doubt Riversider will use the Public Hall demolition and the building of the Ringway of examples...

I like this system where you make my arguments for me, saves me a lot of time and effort.

There are also plenty of places round and about that used to be leisure facilities, community halls, or greenbelt land that we have lost to the bland suburbia most of you here despise, or else to 'high quality flats' for young professionals, that mostly still stand empty.

Yeah, but the demolition of the old town hall was not really avoidable, since it did sort of burn down. Ringway, however was not a good idea, I think thats agreed unanimously. Its important to remember, however, that Ringway was not one of Preston Council's ideas, it was thrust upon Preston by Lancs County, but then they still havent got a clue about what life is actually like in Lancashire.
The thing about leisure facilities is the governmnent is unfortunately not willing to fund them anymore. I know this very well, since I have to go to West View in order to play a game of football (Longridge sports centre shut down a few weeks ago and the park is reserved for the football team. Thank you Ribble Valley council). The high quality flats are obviously going to stand empty. The majority of the real 'professional' companies are situated around Winkeley square, and I don't think they generate an awful lot of jobs. Whilst there is still a lot of office space around Tithebarn, the whole area really isn't attractive enough for businesses yet. When the CBD proposal gets started, I think more ofice based jobs will arrive in Preston, and so will tennants for the inner city flats.

I didn't see this article and can't seem to find it on the website. What did it have to say?
It wasn't published on the website, but I've taken a photo of it. Its on my Flikr (http://www.flickr.com/photos/wazcaster/3010649070/).

Clever photoshopping and an interesting article Wazcaster, with good points about how the council's obsession with Tithebarn has cost the rest of the city dearly, and about how Prestonians have seen masterplan after masterplan, and now want to see something happen - after all, you can't eat the menu.

tithebarn has in some ways slowed preston up... short term. but nothing on the level of investment i believe we can expect once it's up and running. This may be way off the mark so dont take this as gospel be any means, but I was talking to someone at a party a week ago who is currently working on compulsory purchase orders for tithebarn.he said the plan is to complete the work by 2012?? maybe he'd had a few too many to drink... but who knows?!

2012 was the original plan but our friends at LCC caused that to be set back with their insistance on an incorrectly situated bus station

Actually, 2007 was the original plan! Tithebarn was supposed to begin construction originally in 2004 believe it or not!

So it should have been up and running for a year now? Unaffected by the current economic climate?

Yay for NIMBYS :)

These delays are not purely Preston specific.

I first visited the Trafford Centre in 1998, the year it opened, shortly before returning to Lancaster for my final year at university. I was 22 years old. When Peel first created the idea, I was 8 and in my third year at primary school back in my home town, Winchester.

Winchester itself is experiencing a similar situation to Preston. A proposal exists to raze and redevelop a swath of the city centre. OK, the history is not as extended as Tithebarn, the actual official development not being kicked off until 2004, but there are many similarities.

Silver Hill (http://www.silverhill-winchester.info/index.html)

The similarities are:


Both schemes are adjacent to the existing retail core
Both schemes involve an agreement between a local authority and a single developer
Both schemes involve the demolition of the existing bus station (Though Winchester's makes Preston's look palatial!!)
Both schemes will see the removal of an otherwise disliked, badly laid out existing area
Both schemes will provide new retail, leisure and residential
Both schemes are intended to guard against competition from neighbouring retail schemes (Winchester: West Quay, Southampton and Festival Place, Basingstoke - Preston: Manchester CC, Liverpool One)
Both schemes will revive and expand the markets although Winchester's is far smaller than Preston's
Both schemes open up old street patterns and provide a more sensible central street layout
Both schemes are doomed to suffer though blockading of NIMBY (anti-change might be a better term) types - I have no idea what Riversider's Winchester equivalent is be called, but he definitely exists! Most complaints seem to stem around the proposed schemes "intrusion" onto views of the historic Cathedral. As far as I can see very little of this actually occurs, it would take a great deal to dominate one of the largest cathedrals in Europe and WCC would definitely block anything that did!


So, Tithebarn will not be with us until 2014 (don't believe 2012!), it'll be many, many visits before I'll see Winchester own version! Sadly Winchester has the added complication of a rival developer owning land in the development zone and trying to push their own plans forward - not that they have ever seemed to advertise these alternatives!

Yet another idea for rapid transit...

http://www.lep.co.uk/news/Park-and-pod-system-for.4684404.jp

Can't they stop dreaming up new ideas and actually build one?!! There must have been at least 10 completely different mass transit proposals for Preston in the past 2 years!

Agreed. They'll all be long dead before any of these are actually built!

Ridiculous idea. Build a car park and run buses or increase car parking capacity at existing railway stations where practical. This nonsense just makes Preston a joke.

Well... I really have heard it all now. Who are they kidding. Trams? YES! absolutely! pods?! if they can only afford to ship one over, for a trial, how do they plan to ever get funding for what would have to be hundreds of them I'd have thought! We all love progress here (bar of course riversider) but this one is far beyond ridiculous.

Here is a video about the system that is being put forward, ULTRa Personal Rapid Transit, which is currently being constructed at Heathrow Airport.
epiiPy9kAho

Well having watched that youtube video and given the concept yet more thought, I can in no way see this idea EVER working in a city such as Preston! It's a most innovative and even sensible idea for airport transportation, as security could be tightly regulated, and there are presumably just five possible destinations (one for each terminal?) However as I understand it, the idea is to have a large scale park and ride scheme over at the far end of the docks, and it would have to be very large to even slightly recover the cost of such a scheme. Which would mean we would need rather alot of these pods, and (unavoidably in some parts of the line,) on a single track - leading to slower journey times and apart from the novelty aspect of travelling in a pod, you might aswell save time and drive into Preston that sit around on a railway siding in some bubble. Another issue would be vandalism - if the pods are unmanned the mind boggles at what sort of damage the various lunatics of Preston could do to them! And perhaps the council should also consider the disruption of these gimmick machines to the level crossing at Strand Road. It obviously doesnt need anyone to say it, but what a silly idea. Trams, absolutely! Opening the Docklands line for public transport is sensible utilisation of an already present asset. My greatest hope for Preston's transport system however would be the reinstatement of the Deepdale line, as far as Redscar. In my opinion this would not only provide swift access to the city centre directly through a large urban area, but it could also help further expand the Industrial estate benefiting our local economy. Not only that. I also think it would be an excellent way to kick-start regeneration of some very deprived areas. A tramway here linking to both city centre and railway station could make areas such as Deepdale and Ribbleton a more attractive option to live and perhaps we would see processes of gentrification take place. And of course, it would go a long way to solve the MASSIVE traffic problems caused by both the football and the Deepdale retail park. Anyway sorry I've gone a bit mad and went off at a tangent there, it's just an issue that's a little close to my heart haha. Give us the funding please either Central Government or E.U! It's not like they give us funding for much else :)

To be honest, I'm a little skeptical about the council's intent to link the docks with the city centre by light rail. Yes, maybe as a distant thought, but they are putting way too much emphasis on it. Priority should be given to the Longridge line, or even the old East Lancashire line to link Lostock Hall and all those large new housing estates to the city centre. The docks isn't that far from the city centre, its already well connected by bus and the roads are not exactly at breaking point.

I'm shocked at all your dyed in the wool reactionary NIMBYish response to the innovative and imaginative 'pods' proposals, can't you guys give new ideas a chance??? These would definitely 'put Preston on the map' (admittedly as a laughing stock).

You have to admit, there's a real lack of 'filtering' at Preston City Council. They seem to latch on to whatever the latest gimmick is, and adopt it wholeheartedly, despite the amount of egg already dripping from their faces.

I'd suggest that every planning department needs a Riversider, to tell them when they're getting REALLY stupid, before they embarrass themselves in public. Alternatively, they could involve local people from the start, so that the ideas that get pursued are those commonsense ones that make sense to Prestonians.

The Longridge line should be the main priority fo transport. Lets face it, its the only thing they would realistically get any funding for. Unless the current government changes how it spends on transport. Trams or any other form of transport arn't ever going to happen. Leeds and Liverpool couldnt get them. Preston doesnt have a chance. Also it would have the most effect on releaving some of the congestion on the roads as many places that would be on it are only accessable direct by car. Redscar and Deepdale Retail Park being examples.

Preston City Centre > University> PNE> Retail Park> Gamul Lane> Grimsargh> Londgridge

Ties areas back into the city and could hopefully spur on regeneration in the areas around it.

Riversider there is a difference between you and us. You mock and are NIMBYish to everything. Bar FG2 for some reason. You also dont give reasoning for some of your arguement. Im still wating for how you justify Preston havning an 80 bay bus station when the city is more than adequetly covered by bus service as are most areas around the city. Also the fact that Manchester and Liverpool being much bigger cities with much much more buses dont have the need for an 80 bay bus station so what makes Preston different?

Im still wating for how you justify Preston havning an 80 bay bus station when the city is more than adequetly covered by bus service as are most areas around the city.

That's been a long wait that I don't see ending soon.

If existing routing can be used from trams, then great. However the city centre infrastructure required would be enormously expensive, incredibly disruptive and would take a long time to recoup the outlay. Unless Fishergate is fully closed to road traffic, or Ringway is reduced to single lane traffic each way to allow a tram lane, I can't see the integration into the city centre required. Unlike some, however, I am open to discussion and correction. I assume trams to be as Manchester Metrolink or Sheffield Supertram, which may not be suitable.

I'd suggest that every planning department needs a Riversider, to tell them when they're getting REALLY stupid,
Department No?

If every planning department had a Riversider, approval of house extensions would make headline news.

These transport proposals (except maybe for the tram idea) are pretty stupid. The docks is not very badly serviced by busses, and coming in from the north, it would mean going right through the city centre in order to climb into a stupid 'pod' and then riding that back in, which is pointless.
All that preston needs is a new bus station, a p+r to the north and some sort of scheme that would allow people to use both Stagecoach and Preston bus busses on a single ticket.

Hoardings have now gone up all the way around the Albert Building on Fishergate (rather nice hoardings too!) so it looks like that is about to start.

Lowthian House's limey entrance is now clad :D

Hoardings have now gone up all the way around the Albert Building on Fishergate (rather nice hoardings too!) so it looks like that is about to start.

Lowthian House's limey entrance is now clad :D

Yeah I thought those hoardings were quite classy. Warner Estates actually posted another planning application a few weeks ago that involved re-building the corner unit. I hope that goes ahead.

So are they keeping the Albert Building and just refurbing or is it going? It would be a great place for offices being so close to the rail station.

http://www.lep.co.uk/news/Hotel-complex-vision-to-transform.4696901.jp

Hotel complex vision to transform city

The majority of the Queens Retail Park, off Queen Street, would be flattened to make way for the multi-million pound development on the edge of Ring Way.

The current economic climate has contributed to a re-think of a larger scheme which was first mooted in 2005.

Plans for 275 apartments have been shelved, along with the 24-storey glass tower which would have housed the hotel, a leisure centre, offices and some of the flats.

But the people behind the plans are confident it will enhance an area currently dominated by warehouses and will compliment the £700m Tithebarn plans.

Peter Harris, director at Preston-based project architects Cassidy and Ashton, said: "It's all adding to the potential of Preston city centre and making it a much more 21st century city with new, well-designed public squares and linkages which it's lacking to a degree at the moment.

"The latest application is following further negotiations with Preston City Council in relation to the changing economic and commercial conditions.

"We are proposing a well-designed urban scheme that is fitting to the city of Preston and will also provide good pedestrian linkages between the site and the city centre."

Cheshire-based Brookhouse Group, which owns the whole site after acquiring the former Securicor depot and Q Tyre and Exhaust, submitted the outline plans to Preston Council last week.

Similar to the Tithebarn scheme - which borders the site – the proposals include a series of city squares and pedestrian routes across the site.

Construction work would be in two phases with a 5,000 square metre supermarket built first, along with two levels of 567 parking spaces, fronted by bars and restaurants.

During the second phase, another 264 parking spaces would be added with a glazed "sky-link" to the supermarket which would then be nearly doubled in size.

The Homebase store and Ciceley car dealership would be retained, although future development has not been ruled out.

It is the fourth time the developer has come forward with a scheme to re-develop the area which neighbours a site earmarked for 600 apartments to be known as the Linen Buildings.

So far, Countryside Properties has yet to start work on transforming the former Booths site into flats, admitting earlier this year that it was reviewing its entire property portfolio.

Today, Ian Kelley, managing director of Countryside Properties Northern, said: "In light of the current market conditions, even Countryside Properties, with our track record and commitment to quality sustainable developments, has to carefully consider each project and, notwithstanding our ambitions for the Linen Buildings in Preston, no decisions regarding a start on site have yet been made."

But Mr Harris said the Brookhouse plans had been revised to take into account the apartments proposals.

He said: "We're working with the Countryside scheme – we're not working against it."


Yet another proposal for the area. Eventually something will get built. Not to keen on the picture on the LEP website. It just looks like a huge shopping centre,

Nice to hear that this is still in the works. If any of this goes ahead, I doubt it will be for quite a few years yet. Something needs to be done. Homebase is now the only tenant out of 5 retail units. Pretty poor really. Notice, that The Linen Buildings is still not off yet.

Yes, i'm sure eventually this area will be redeveloped, though I highly doubt this current planning application will be the last one. I'm just keeping my fingers crossed that the Linen Buildings plan still happens. It'd be a real pity if countryside properties pulled out. It is also disappointing nothing came of our 24 storey glass tower ...would've looked impressive as u drove into the City Centre from the motorway :(

The design for it wasn't that good though. The top floors would have been very small, to such an extent that they wouldn't have been comercially viable. If it had been a better design, it may not have been pulled. I agree that it would have made an impression but thats not what its about.
Its good that the area is getting spruced up though, and the Linen Buildings should make quite an impression themselves.

^Indeed. The Linen Buildings tallest block could very well end up being Preston's tallest building. Although the nearby council blocks are 1 floor higher, newer residential blocks tend to have larger ceiling heights.

The design for it wasn't that good though. The top floors would have been very small, to such an extent that they wouldn't have been comercially viable

West Park One in Liverpool is a little like that in that the upper floors taper into what must be fairly unusable floor space. (It's also a fairly ugly building too!)

^Indeed. The Linen Buildings tallest block could very well end up being Preston's tallest building. Although the nearby council blocks are 1 floor higher, newer residential blocks tend to have larger ceiling heights.

Possibly, although even if the tallest block was 3m floor to ceiling, it would only be about 55m (3mx18fl add a metre), which would mean that the Unicentre would still be taller. The floor to ceiling heights would have to be about 3.4/3.5m (About 62/about 63.5m repectively), which is quite high for a residential building.

West Park One in Liverpool is a little like that in that the upper floors taper into what must be fairly unusable floor space. (It's also a fairly ugly building too!)

At least it promotes healthy eating. You can't be obese if you work in that building.

^^ Its actually a resi building. Though you wouldnt think it from the cladding. One Park West is a Marmite building. You either love it or hate it. I quite like it, especially the shape. Better than your standard box apartment building. Just a shame the cladding (especially in winter) and the awkward linkage between the two blocks lets in down slightly.

On the Linen buildings where on the site would the tallest have been positioned? Also i landmark building on the Homebase site would be excellent. Imagine the view down New Hall Lane with something great at the bottom.

Just been catching up on LEP news articles of Tithebarn, and noticed one dated the 15th October entitled "Tithebarn Cinema To Be Named." The article states that an announcement would be made in "a couple of weeks," so seeing as it's now just over a month since, I wondered if I'd missed something? Not a biggy, but could prove interesting - I've just noticed Liverpool One's cinema is Odeon ...could this spell disaster for continued riversway regeneration if Odeon make the move back into the City Centre?

"continued riversway regeneration"!?! I see no evidence whatsoever of this - just a bunch of retail sheds, the product of the scandalous days of the 80's, which our council has still not apologised for.

Just been catching up on LEP news articles of Tithebarn, and noticed one dated the 15th October entitled "Tithebarn Cinema To Be Named." The article states that an announcement would be made in "a couple of weeks," so seeing as it's now just over a month since, I wondered if I'd missed something?

Nothing has been said since this article, as far as I'm aware. I don't think Odeon will close on the Docks unless it has good reason to so it may just be a case of 'see how it goes'. Though if it did, the land would make way for an impressive building!

I wouldnt have thought they would close the Odeon on the docks as that place can get rather busy sometimes, with ques going out the doors. I would hope that a city centre Odeon and the one on the docks would be far enough apart to keep the two open. Plus you have the added that the docks will have a free car park, city centre will not.

Sorry riversider perhaps I phrased that rather poorly. Whatever you think of the docks the cinema has been good at pulling the crowds in, so what I meant was it could be detrimental to any future investment in the area if Odeon was to close. I know the cinema can become very busy when major films are released but it does spend long periods of the week quiet. Which makes me wonder if there is a real demand for a third cinema? (after odeon docks and vue on capital centre) But great point there actually preston guy, it would be a top place for a decent new building, I hadnt thought about it like that!

We could do with an 'Art House' type cinema, like the Corner House in Manchester, showing the best foreign films and quality, intelligent films that just don't get screened in the multiplexes.

One of those would be cool though i doubt it would happen as wouldnt have thought that Preston had a large enough population to sustain one of those. Would be nice to bring the building next to Lava and Ignite back into use as a cinema along those lines, however like i said. Doubtful.

We could do with an 'Art House' type cinema, like the Corner House in Manchester, showing the best foreign films and quality, intelligent films that just don't get screened in the multiplexes.

We already have one of those, the Mitchell and Kenyon cinema at UCLAN.

Some images of the new Lowthian House by eat at joe's @ flickr.com:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3183/3041328191_391c2c29ea.jpg?v=1227059335

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3037/3042160192_b7a2c0f7b0.jpg?v=1227059135

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3291/3041313945_e0c4c5bc2a.jpg?v=1227058100

The entrance looks great, just a pit the building itself has been made worse with those white panels.. why didn't they break it up a bit, have some green and black strips going up the entire elevation? Or have bigger windows at least.. wasted opportunity really

The bit I hate the most if the reflective windows. For God's sake, get rid of them! Otherwise, I think they've made a pretty good improvement and it's sure to attract more businesses to it. But I agree with ferge that green elements to the tower itself would add more to it.

The entrance actually looks alright. I agree that green stripes up the building could have made it look a bit more eye catching and a bit nicer than just plain white. I think it looks a bit more professional now though, although having Gala bingo in there might ruin the whole image a little bit.

Edit: I think that from some angles the reflective glass looks alright, but from others I agree it doesnt look that good.

LimeHouse is certainly an improvement. As someone as already pointed out, a bit more lime would have sprused it up a bit.

Also the christmas lights are an improvement this year...

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3185/3049048130_c11d992933.jpg?v=0

^^ Ooo much better :)

We could do with an 'Art House' type cinema, like the Corner House in Manchester, showing the best foreign films and quality, intelligent films that just don't get screened in the multiplexes.

Oh God, that is the last thing we need, somewhere for a bunch of insufferably smug people more interested in promoting their own self-importance and intellectual superiority than anything actually showing on the screen.

Or is this the usual, "it can only be good if like it" argument from the better-than-us Riversider.

(I did thoroughly enjoy Quantum of Solace last week, dread to think where that puts me on RS's scale!!)

Oh God, that is the last thing we need, somewhere for a bunch of insufferably smug people more interested in promoting their own self-importance and intellectual superiority than anything actually showing on the screen.

C'mon Jon, that's a bit small minded. When I lived in Sheffield in the 80's we used to go to The Anvil. It was there I was introduced to the Cohen Brothers, seeing Blood Simple, and another interesting film I recall was Kiss Of The Spiderwoman. Not a chance of seeing those at the Odeon on Pond's Forge round the corner back then.
A chap within these city walls (NOTE - not in South Ribble then!) is actually forming plans to open an Art House cinema with other complementary uses, but I'll admit to not holding my breath on that one either.

is this the usual, "it can only be good if like it" argument from the better-than-us Riversider.

(I did thoroughly enjoy Quantum of Solace last week, dread to think where that puts me on RS's scale!!)

Can't win on this thread - make a critical comment, and you're a stick in the mud populist NIMBY, make a constructive suggestion, and you're a smug elitist.

Why on earth would I object to anyone watching (or even enjoying) Quantum of Solace? There's a lot of 'negative attribution' going on here, with all kinds of ideas and characteristics being attached to my personality, without the slightest justification in terms of evidence.

At the moment I'm watching 'I'm a Celebrity'. Perhaps with your deep understanding of my psyche, you already know who I think should be evicted first?

a bunch of insufferably smug people more interested in promoting their own self-importance and intellectual superiority My idea of a really good night out (which is why I keep coming back here)...

I wish i'd not brought up about the cinema if it's causin this much trouble :ohno:

Fair play to u riversider for a valid point, always good to have variance in cinema, and also sounds like a niche market to me which brings something a little different to Preston... though as Accura pointed out, I think there is already something like that at the uni?

And Quantum Of Solace is a top film while we're at it :lol:

though as Accura pointed out, I think there is already something like that at the uni?:lol:

There's the Mitchell & Kenyon Theatre in the Foster Blg which can show Art House Cinema, but that is not is raison d'être.
I was lucky enough to be skiing in Park City, Utah when the Sundance Film Festival was on and as a result saw a Spanish film (in Spanish with subtitles) called No One Remembers You When You Die [once it was translated into English]. A marvellous experience open to the public with the directors doing a Q&A after the screening.
With 30,000 students in Preston providing our biggest local employer, this kind of experience should not be open only to those who have been, like me, lucky enough to get out of Preston for a while and see what the wider world has to offer.
The highlighted bit in blue reminds me of all the advantages of much of the Riverworks project, btw, Riversider.
I had lunch the other day in the now wonderfully managed Conti looking over the Ribble. Imagining what I could see in that concept you and others believe has been consigned to the dustbin, I saw once again the vast number of opportunities that have been missed for the benefit of us all (even those living south of the river) by studying this issue further.

C'mon Jon, that's a bit small minded.

Much like the implication that films shown in standard cinemas are not "quality, intelligent films" then. :ohno:

Sorry, I'll pitch my sweeping statements at a more agreeable level next time. :lol:

For what it is worth, I have actually been to the Dukes in Lancaster to watch foreign films on a number of occasions.

I had lunch the other day in the now wonderfully managed Conti looking over the Ribble. Imagining what I could see in that concept you and others believe has been consigned to the dustbin, I saw once again the vast number of opportunities that have been missed for the benefit of us all (even those living south of the river) by studying this issue further.

Having lived all my life on a street just off Riverside, and on a daily basis walked my dogs both through Avenham and Miller Parks and the open countryside area across the river, I believe Preston is actually extremely lucky to be so close to nature! Don't get me wrong, I'm very much in favour of expansion of the city. But just sometimes, some things are more important than tarmacing over with some landmark development. it's a very unique feature - i can't think of any towns of Preston's size that has countryside within 5-10 minutes walk from it's city centre. I do believe the former East Lancs line's reinstatement for trams would be a positive move, as would the transformation of the docks that Riverworks promised us. But there is absolutely no way a barrage is needed. It would significantly increase flood risk in the area. Before the flood-wall was built my house was flooded several times and as I'm sure everyone can appreciate, it is a rather horrendous ordeal with long lasting consequences! So no, I'm not in favour of the previously proposed scheme. I do hope the concept appears back on the agenda MINUS the barrage plan, and minus any development on the south side of the river between the disused red railway bridge and the River Darwin. Leave it be! :lol:

And yes, the Continental is much improved - although pricey, excellent food... worth the money. Beer fairly well-priced and good looking barmaids thrown into the bargain - cant be bad!! :cheers:

Much like the implication that films shown in standard cinemas are not "quality, intelligent films" then. :ohno:

Sorry, I'll pitch my sweeping statements at a more agreeable level next time. :lol:

For what it is worth, I have actually been to the Dukes in Lancaster to watch foreign films on a number of occasions.

I think the points about them being 'intelligent' and 'quality' are debatable most of the time, although Quantum of Solace was actually rather good, although there were some weaknesses in the plot.
I hadn't heard of the mitchell and Kenyon cinema before, most of the foreign films I watch are ones shown on Film4.

@ tark: I tend to agree that the east lancs line replacement would be a good idea. Personally I wish that the Longridge-Preston railway was reopened along a slightly different route, although doubtless that won't ever happen (it shouldnt have been closed in the first place really).

Obviously, I wouldn't like to see vast areas of tarmac being the only result of Riverworks, PP. I'm also not convinced that it's impossible to do something to manage the very tidal flow range of the Ribble between London Road and some point downstream (maybe even as far as the Bullnose at the docks) without vastly increasing flood risk and / or destroying the ecology. I've said before in this thread that I see not a barrage / wier, but more of an adjustable piece of engineering that would halve the number of tides allowing daily use of the river in new ways, and generating a decent amount of hydro-electricity into the bargain

I've done quite detailed studies for the lands between the East Lancs line and the River Darwen being converted to a racecourse. This protects the feeling of greensword and brings a use to Preston that is non-existant between Haydock and Cartmel. Restored trams on the East Lancs line from Preston to Brig is a no-brainer advantage, providing excellent road and rail links for the whole of Lancashire to the facility. It would make a perfect permanent home for the Royal Lancashire show and other field sport activities, with the railway embankment making perfect bleachers for spectators on the run-in to a finish line near the disused rail bridge over Ribble. Suspended below the bridge could be fantastic restaurants and other facilities well above the waterline with great views up the Ribble Valley. Vetrenary & stable facilites etc could be placed between the East Lancs line and the West Coast mainline.

The new "rural" type employment opportunities such ideas could bring to the heart of the city, sorry, metropolitan area of Central Lancashire could be wonderful, without greatly detracting from the countryside feel of these very marginal agricultural fields as they are today.

Another obvious is the reopening of the Longridge line for trams from Corporation St to at least as far as Grimsargh, serving PNE, the north Preston Employment area and Red Scar etc which are real traffic bottlenecks. I'm the first to admit though, that I can't see the finance being made available to make this happen in my life time.

Wow, a racecourse could well be the way forward for the area actually, I would never have thought of that! Partial preservation of the natural area, yet still making good money off the land, and it could still remain a flood plain. And the benefit of improvements in public services, along with putting Preston on the leisure map... Have you suggested that one at the town hall tark? That's the best idea I've heard in a long time.

As for trams in Preston - Does anyone have any idea on likely costs of construction? I've been having a quick look on the internet for similar schemes, and the main current story appears to be Edinburgh's new tram system and it's spiraling construction costs, expected to be around £500million. Their scheme is far larger than anything we'd have and plus we already have the existing railway lines to run the trams on. Factoring in private business investment together with a possible city centre congestion charge, and I wouldn't have thought the level of government investment would need to be incredibly high? As I am currently based in Salford at the moment I have just received my ballot paper to vote on the Greater manchester Transport Referemdum - disgraceful that one city has the opportunity to be given £2.5 billion to throw around on new tram lines etc while the government laughs in the face of cities such as Preston, who need perhaps a 20th of that amount.

Rather frustratingly, it looks as though Manchester will be turning that opportunity down.

With the Manchester TIF bid didnt all cities get a chance to bid for it and only Manchester and Cambridge (i think) actually went for it? To be honest im glad that Preston didnt as a congestion charge would kill the city dead. Manchester turning it down will be the stupidest thing ever done in the city. Road and congestion charging will eventually be forced on us all at some point anyway. So the smart thing would be to get the funding for transport expansion whilst the government is giving it.

I think the Merseytram Line one costs around 150 million and thats in a similar position to any trams here in that there is the space there, All thats required is the trams and track.

A congestion charge in Preston would only work if there were other alternatives of transport. Apart from an already very busy bus network, there are none.

True, but if Manc does reject TIF, surely it could seriously hurt the chances of other cities of getting tram networks. The government wouldn't want to be messed around again when there is potentially billions at stake. Eventually the demand will grow large enough, of course, but that could probably take decades. That would be a serious loss.

:lol: its a good job i read your views on this before I sent off my ballot paper then! It's difficult to tell what the mood on the street is in Manchester... Having listened in on people's conversations it sounded a certainty that a yes vote would win the day a month or so back. But very suddenly opinion appeared to turn. Anyway I think 12th December is when the results are released...

Wow, a racecourse could well be the way forward for the area actually, I would never have thought of that! Partial preservation of the natural area, yet still making good money off the land, and it could still remain a flood plain. And the benefit of improvements in public services, along with putting Preston on the leisure map... Have you suggested that one at the town hall tark? That's the best idea I've heard in a long time.

A very abbreviated version of this speculative idea was submitted to The Vision Board in January 2006 in my father's document The Way Ahead. Several PCC officers have also seen it in this form. Some very close associates of an exceptionally wealthy local man who has substantial interests in racing & leisure (I'm sure you can guss who!) are aware of the concept, but as £100,000's of consultancy work would be needed to see if it could in reality be persued, it hasn't been. I'd hoped to make a decent wedge out of the idea if anything could come of it, but I don't think it's worth keeping it so close to my chest any more - hence putting it in the public realm like this. Unfortunately, this also vastly jacks up the asking price of the farmer's land if he could be persuaded to sell it.

Having lived all my life on a street just off Riverside, and on a daily basis walked my dogs both through Avenham and Miller Parks and the open countryside area across the river, I believe Preston is actually extremely lucky to be so close to nature! Don't get me wrong, I'm very much in favour of expansion of the city. But just sometimes, some things are more important than tarmacing over with some landmark development. it's a very unique feature - i can't think of any towns of Preston's size that has countryside within 5-10 minutes walk from it's city centre. I do believe the former East Lancs line's reinstatement for trams would be a positive move, as would the transformation of the docks that Riverworks promised us. But there is absolutely no way a barrage is needed. It would significantly increase flood risk in the area. Before the flood-wall was built my house was flooded several times and as I'm sure everyone can appreciate, it is a rather horrendous ordeal with long lasting consequences! So no, I'm not in favour of the previously proposed scheme. I do hope the concept appears back on the agenda MINUS the barrage plan, and minus any development on the south side of the river between the disused red railway bridge and the River Darwin. Leave it be! :lol:

And yes, the Continental is much improved - although pricey, excellent food... worth the money. Beer fairly well-priced and good looking barmaids thrown into the bargain - cant be bad!! :cheers:

You're from Walton-le-Dale?
Snap! :D

As for trams in Preston - Does anyone have any idea on likely costs of construction? I've been having a quick look on the internet for similar schemes, and the main current story appears to be Edinburgh's new tram system and it's spiraling construction costs, expected to be around £500million. Their scheme is far larger than anything we'd have and plus we already have the existing railway lines to run the trams on.

Nothing exact, but I would say "high!" Don't forget that it is not just the cost, it is the disruption of major streets being dug up for tramlines (subject to route naturally)

The Edinburgh system does actually plan to use existing rail for some of the network but I believe that is "future planning" not what is currently under way. It does cause absolute chaos in the city centre and Prince Street is torn up for some distance.

Talking of disrupton did anyone see that thing in the LEP about sinking the Ringway. Whilst i do think its a good idea to get rid of the thing, it should be the whole lot not just the Friargate part. Also dont see how it would work gives the gradient of the Rinroad where it was proposed to go under. Also imagine the disruption whilst the road was closed for X amount of years.

How ever much we dont like it being there it does provide a vital role. So the question is can we get rid of/move the Ringroad without creating years of traffic chaos?

Now the Ringroad is there, I say stick with it!

I reckon that IF it was made into an underpass, you'd need mass development up top to link either side and to integrate it as one.. and if they were poorly designed you're no better off than with the ringroad.

I say we fight it with hardcore developments either side that push up against it, creating higher density along the parts that can take it, make a corridor of it, like in Birmingham with Orion and HCT, its a great way of creating a city vibe.

BLACKPOOL is poised to officially object to plans to expand Preston's shopping centre, amid warnings the scheme represents "a very grave threat" to the resort's own regeneration ambitions.

Town hall chiefs in Blackpool are also recommending the town objects to a new strategy which would put Preston closer to the likes of Liverpool and Manchester in terms of growth priorities.

The £700m Tithebarn project, earmarked for Preston town centre, would see two new department stores opened by John Lewis and Marks and Spencer and an increase of more than 70 per cent in the size of the city's shopping centre, making it twice the size of Blackpool shopping centre.

Coun Maxine Callow, Blackpool's cabinet member for regeneration and tourism, said: "We are not being petty. We are fighting for Blackpool's future.

"If this goes ahead we could have problems just as people are regaining confidence in Blackpool town centre.

"The economic climate is not good at the moment and we have a duty to the businesses and the people of Blackpool to object as strongly as possible."

Councillors are being recommended to ask the Government to hold a public inquiry into the Tithebarn plan.

Blackpool had fallen behind rival retail destinations in recent years.

It struck back in September with the opening of the £30m extension to the Houndshill Centre, which includes the new Debenhams store.

It is also hoping to attract investment to the £285m redevelopment of the Talbot Gateway.

A report to councillors says: "The scale and nature of the proposals for Preston represent a very grave threat to this ambition."

Traders in Fylde and Wyre have also expressed fears about the impact on them.

But Preston City Council leader Coun Ken Hudson said Tithebarn would benefit the whole region.

He said: "Preston is looking to put this part of the North West, which includes Blackpool, Wyre and Fylde, at the very heart of economic growth.

"We have commissioned a strategy which will look at the economic benefits of Tithebarn across the whole of the Lancashire region, so we would hope Blackpool will wait for the results of this independent review before they put something in.

"If we don't get Tithebarn we will be fighting for the same regeneration money as Blackpool."

Blackpool's executive will decide tomorrow whether to go ahead with its objections.

BLACKBURN town centre could lose up to 14 per cent of its trade if a major new shopping centre is built in Preston, according to a report.

The £700million proposed shopping Tithebarn centre would increase the size of the city’s non-food retail area by 74 per cent.

Both Blackburn with Darwen and Blackpool councils have objected to the scheme, fearing it will wreck their town centres.

And now a new council report has underlined those concerns.

It says: “The floor space [of the Tithebarn] would be more than double the non-food retail floor space of neighbouring towns of Blackburn and Blackpool.

“Blackpool and Blackburn town centres may experience trade loss of between seven and 14 per cent in non-food goods turnover by 2014.

“The assessments supporting the proposals are neither robust nor up-to-date, exaggerate the expenditure available to support the proposed development and under-estimate the serious impact it would like have on the vitality and viability of other centres.”

Work to build the Preston development could start in 2010, if planning permission is granted next year.

However, there is a strong chance that the Government could call in the plan for an inquiry, such is the level of opposition from neighbouring councils.

Objectors believe the proposal goes against the North West Development Agency’s strategy for Lancashire, which has Preston, Blackburn and Blackpool on a relatively equal footing.

The report to Wyre Borough Council says: “It is considered that this [the plan] places too much emphasis on the role of Preston after Manchester and Liverpool.”

The Tithebarn development would have a large Marks and Spencer and John Lewis stores, a multi-screen cinema, more than 20 restaurants and cafes and 52,000 square metres of shops.

There will also be a 2,700-space car park and 400 apartments.

http://www.blackburncitizen.co.uk/news/3946270.Preston_plan_could_cost_Blackburn_14_per_cent_of_trade___report/

How worried should we be about the above articles? Trivial, or a real threat? :dunno:

If the project gets called in, we can expect a further delay of at least a year.

I think its insulting that Blackburn and Blackpool are objecting, especially considering that their major regeneration projects are underway without meeting any objection from Preston. Those two towns have had a lot more public money spent on them than Preston over the boom period. I think its time we got our share.

I think its insulting that Blackburn and Blackpool are objecting, especially considering that their major regeneration projects are underway without meeting any objection from Preston. Those two towns have had a lot more public money spent on them than Preston over the boom period. I think its time we got our share.

As everyone knows I'm Mr Blackpool and am moving there next year. I think it's a mistake for the council to object, I believe that if Preston is booming then that can only be good for Blackpool.

Better to be a neighbour to a succesful town or city then a failing one.

Precisely. Its very difficult to get to Blackpool by any mode of transport without going through Preston first. As far as visitors to Blackpool are concerned, Preston is effectively a doormat. We like to keep our doormats clean don't we?

I think that its pathetic that our closest neighbours object to our prosperity. Can PCC object to any further leisure plans in Blackpool as they will no doubt have an effect on Prestons tourist trade.

I think its insulting that Blackburn and Blackpool are objecting, especially considering that their major regeneration projects are underway without meeting any objection from Preston. Those two towns have had a lot more public money spent on them than Preston over the boom period. I think its time we got our share.
The two B's are Unitary Authorities. Says it all really, especially because LCC does nothing for Preston.

Do you think we will ever be rid of LCC?

The translation from the two B towns (and two festering scum holes at that) is simple:

"We can't be bothered thinking up anything for ourselves so we'll just object to this."

Jesus, you'd think Blackpool of all places would be able to come up with some form of regeneration that feeds on its tourism to attract visitors!!!! Pathetic.

Personally, I think both towns should be razed to the ground, though even as derelict wastelands, you'd be hard pushed to spot any difference!

Do you think we will ever be rid of LCC?

Yes, within 7-15 years. The whole country is fast turning towards an alternative tier of government.

The 14-storey hotel on the Staples site has been approved:
http://www.lep.co.uk/news/150bedroom-city-hotel-gets-the.4760931.jp

Since we have seen no decent renders of this, I'm considering going to the planning office to have a gander.

Maybe Blackpool could object to that as well seen as it will affect their hotel trade. Bunch of c***s.

Im assuming that the 14 story tower is the N shaped one. Or is that a different one?

I was in Blackpool on Monday and the shopping areas and the great refurbished Houndshill Shopping Centre were really busy. Blackburn also has a strong centre from what I've heard. I just find it puzzling.

I am still against the building of two hotels directly opposite each other in Preston though! However, McAleer & Rushe have built some impressive hotels in other cities so I'll wait and see what it looks like.

It was always inevitable that Blackburn would object. I got sent off to school in Blackburn in 1995 - a time when the place was really was on its ass! Since then, the money, (PUBLIC money I might add) that has gone into that town is staggering in comparison to the mere pennies Preston has seen from Government. Public Sqaures, new railway station, new ring-road, street art everywhere you look, much improved public transport services, huge refurbished new library, new bus interchange (though still consists of a few crap bus shelters!) to name a few. Did Preston complain when they had Townsmoor, Whitebirk, Peel Centre and Nova Scotia Retail Parks built?? And as I understand it, The Mall PLC have already started their expansion of the blackburn shopping centre to DOUBLE it's size and incorportate a new market! It is sickening that a small town in burnley is able to slow a real city's regeneration plans. At the end of the day, it's all because theyr a UA and theyv got a high-flyer MP. And we've got LCC and Mark Hendrick. I saw him perform in the commons a year or two ago. it was at PMQ's. He asked the Prime Minister something along the lines of how best to celebrate Labour's centenary. Hardly acting for the welfare of his constituents.

As for Blackpool - all that money they got at the drop of a hat to protect it from the sea... I'd have preferred to see another coastal management system deployed here - Managed Retreat!

B-towns... Preston is superior ...wake up and face reality.

The amount of money the two have had spent on them in recent years is astonishing when compared to Preston. Ironic that despite all that, we're still on top ;)

Which is why Tithebarn is important to ensure that we remain on top :)

I am still against the building of two hotels directly opposite each other in Preston though!

What do you reckon to what has happened in Bamber Bridge then? The Holiday Inn Express opposite the Premier Inn has changed. To a Premier Inn!! :nuts:

Yeh, I noticed that. Pretty daft! I guess they were just eliminating the competition.

http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/4765/t1sf3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/t1sf3.jpg/1/w889.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img248/t1sf3.jpg/1/)
http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/4945/t2cx2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/t2cx2.jpg/1/w892.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img248/t2cx2.jpg/1/)

Maybe just for illustration purposes but a possibility!

Wasnt aware they had anything signed up for Tithebarn yet?

One thing i am really going to like about Tithebarn. Density! Just look at it! Lovely!

Still miffed about the demolition of Lancastria house!

Oh good lord... what is that guy doing wearing bright blue trousers?! (first pic, far right)

Oh good lord... what is that guy doing wearing bright blue trousers?! (first pic, far right)
Juggling, without a safety net.

Well spotted Accura :lol:

Riversider wont be happy, theres not nearly enough chavs in those renders :nuts:

Well spotted Accura :lol:

Riversider wont be happy :nuts:

I have corrected your post for you Cap'n! :lol:

It was always inevitable that Blackburn would object. I got sent off to school in Blackburn in 1995 - a time when the place was really was on its ass! Since then, the money, (PUBLIC money I might add) that has gone into that town is staggering in comparison to the mere pennies Preston has seen from Government. Public Sqaures, new railway station, new ring-road, street art everywhere you look, much improved public transport services, huge refurbished new library, new bus interchange (though still consists of a few crap bus shelters!) to name a few. Did Preston complain when they had Townsmoor, Whitebirk, Peel Centre and Nova Scotia Retail Parks built?? And as I understand it, The Mall PLC have already started their expansion of the blackburn shopping centre to DOUBLE it's size and incorportate a new market! It is sickening that a small town in burnley is able to slow a real city's regeneration plans. At the end of the day, it's all because theyr a UA and theyv got a high-flyer MP. And we've got LCC and Mark Hendrick. I saw him perform in the commons a year or two ago. it was at PMQ's. He asked the Prime Minister something along the lines of how best to celebrate Labour's centenary. Hardly acting for the welfare of his constituents.

As for Blackpool - all that money they got at the drop of a hat to protect it from the sea... I'd have preferred to see another coastal management system deployed here - Managed Retreat!

B-towns... Preston is superior ...wake up and face reality.

How can Blackburn be a small town in Burnley when a) it's not in Burnley and b) it's larger than Burnley.

Anyway, Blackburn is a dump. Burnley is a dump. Preston has got a bookshop, a nice station and I saw Jethro Tull there once. So it's a few points better.

When I grew up near Burnley I didn't think anyone in that region could read. Having to travel to Manchester or Preston to get to a bookshop was a bit sad.

The reason why Blackpool and Blackburn have spent so much more on redevelopment, despite being much smaller and less significant in Lancashire's politics and economy, is that unlike Preston they did not decide to put all their development eggs in one basket, then wait, and wait, and wait...

Instead, while the economy was booming, they 'made hay while the sun shines'.

Now we're hitting the recession/depression, and conditions for redevelopment are that much tougher.

The renders at least show normal people rather than power-suited timetravellers from the early 90's. Unfortunately the architecture and thinking behind Tithebarn is still trapped in that unsustainable era, repeating all the cliches and mistakes, with none of the saving graces.

So what do Blackburn and Blackpool have that makes them so better than us now?

Blackburn would be nothing without its The Mall. And what else, a disparate mass of souless retail parks that depend on car travel to reach?

Blackpool.........well, I am at a loss, it's a dump, end of story.

I haven't claimed that Blackpool and Blackburn are 'better than us'.

I have tried to explain Accura's statement that they have managed to spend much more on development than us over the last decade.

The reason for this is that they allowed development to happen, rather than deliberately blocking it, in order to wait (and wait, and wait) for a single developer to come in with a wonderful scheme that would solve all their problems for them.

So here's the proof then, at last, in the main LEP article:

Andrew Taylorson, of Preston-based chartered surveyors Eckersley, who worked for Lancashire County Council in developing the bus station, confirmed that developers had looked at five other locations, including sidings next to Preston railway station and two sites close to the city's indoor food market.

Confirmation then that the devlopers sought any location than Manchester Road, which we all know is a crap location, but that LCC forced them to put it there.

Full Article: http://www.lep.co.uk/news/Plans-for-new-bus-station.4786680.jp

Blackpool.........well, I am at a loss, it's a dump, end of story.

Once we get rid of the druggies and build the Talbot Gateway Project and open some shops (unlikely in this climate) from the Tower to the Metropole, Blackpool will be doing OK.

Once we get rid of the druggies and build the Talbot Gateway Project and open some shops (unlikely in this climate) from the Tower to the Metropole, Blackpool will be doing OK.
Unless Preston makes a formal objection against Blackpool! How very dare you steal our trade! LOL Losers.

Unless Preston makes a formal objection against Blackpool! How very dare you steal our trade! LOL Losers.

That's the madness of this situation of council's protesting against the Preston plan, we should all be working together so that everyone wins.

Various documents and information:
http://www.preston.gov.uk/Category.asp?cat=1959

I have tried to explain Accura's statement that they have managed to spend much more on development than us over the last decade.
I'm talking about public money. If you're including private investment, then Preston wins hands down.

Haha NewTroll, I just fancied a good old rant at B-towns' disgraceful behaviour, and when Man Utd play Blackburn rovers the fans sing "You're just a small town in Burnley" which is where i got the phrase from. Thought I'd just clear that one up :lol:

As for Blackpool and druggies, I suspect the town will always have a large drug problem... the irony there i suppose is that the drug culture legitamately contributes to the town's economy ...if no druggies in the town - no d.s.s payments - not enough business for b&b's to survive. Economy worse off! Funny old world.

Various documents and information:
http://www.preston.gov.uk/Category.asp?cat=1959

How bland. Surely we could do better than that?

I would have loved to see the Patels Guild Tower on this site.

Indeed. Now that scheme is crap. People who thing Tithebarn is dull and boring should take a look at that.

is that not just a glorified car park that they are proposing?

Sadly it looks that way. Structurally, it wont be much different from what currently is on the site, a retail park. I believe the idea is to find an anchor supermarket and develop around that. The nearest example I can think of is ASDA in Stockport.

Not a hugely impressive development

I much preferred the original scheme.
http://www.bsp-masterplanning.co.uk/preston_project_4.html

It really is painful to see the amount of public and private money that has to be wasted in Planning Applications these days, simply so boxes can be checked off for a "one size fits all" general policy of litigation avoidance. I mean, 'Flood Risk Assessment', in Queen St? Purleeeeeaase! And that's just one of the catagories that are needless . . .

I much preferred the original scheme.
http://www.bsp-masterplanning.co.uk/preston_project_4.html

Ditto.

Its a shame they are going to build crap there. Could have been an extension of the city centre. Instead its looking like retail sheds with the odd patch of grass which can be classed as a public square or whatever. Projects like this getting proposed shows the high quality which is present in the Tithebarn proposals.

The University of Central Lancashire has beaten Oxford University in the latest research league tables.
It could attract millions of pounds of new funding after notching up world class praise for its research.

The Preston-based university was applauded in the Higher Education Funding Council for England's Research Assessment Exercise (RAE), published today.

Lancaster University is also celebrating after three of its research areas were ranked top in the country.

UCLan is ranked above Oxford University for linguistics research.

University bosses are hoping this will bring them in extra cash, although they will have to wait until March to find out just how much.

The RAE data will be used to allocate more than £1.5bn in funding to universities each year from 2009-10.

Not all universities take part, but UCLan submitted to 17 Units of Assessment and all were rated as containing research which is regarded as internationally excellent.

Eleven of the subject areas contain research which is now regarded as world-leading.

In the last RAE in 2001, UCLan attained evidence of international excellence in three areas.

UCLan's vice chancellor Malcolm McVicar said: "We are delighted that the RAE 2008 results confirm there is research of world-leading excellence and international importance in terms of originality, significance and rigour being carried out at UCLan."

Professor Patrick McGhee, deputy vice-chancellor (academic) added: "This is good news for Preston and for UCLan – we anticipate that our excellent results will attract even more internationally outstanding academics to the city.

"This puts UCLan and the city on the UK research map."

He said: "Research is extremely important strategically for UCLan, in its own right and because it is a key driver of teaching and academic enterprise.

"The RAE is an important benchmark of our research quality and is the means by which vital funding for research is determined."

Lancaster University is already one of the country's leading research centres and in the latest assessment was ranked 10th in the country overall for research quality.

Overall, Lancaster submitted 90% of staff as "research active", which is way above the national norm.

It is considered internationally excellent and top in UK for physics, joint first in the UK for design, art, music and theatre and joint first for bio-medicine.

Pro vice-chancellor Professor Trevor McMillan said that the results were a tribute to Lancaster's talented academics and research team.

He said: "Lancaster can go forward with strong confidence that its reputation for research excellence has been sustained."

The above is a prime example of a combination of hyperbolic spin, and lazy journalism.

A journalist who bothered to check the background of the UCLAN press release would have found this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/7788718.stm

I expect plenty of universities have put out similarly hyperbolic PR statements because 54% of the work assessed in 159 universities was "world leading" or "internationally excellent" and another 33% was "internationally recognised". By my estimates, this means 87% of the 159 universities will be boasting outrageously about how great they are.

Perhaps they have a right to boast - but then you find out that the funding council has had to defend the way institutions could choose which staff would be assessed.

The results give no indication what proportion of staff in any area were put forward.

"Universities were selective in their strategies for submission," said David Eastwood, chief executive of the Higher Education Funding Council for England (Hefce), which co-ordinated the UK-wide exercise.

This basically means the universities chose whose work to include, and who not to include. The work of one or two particularly brilliant researchers could potentially be put forward to 'carry' a whole department.

While UCLAN seems to have done brilliantly in terms of Linguistics research, perhaps they should doff their caps to Leicester, who are the university rated as having the greatest cluster of world-leading researchers of any discipline in any university in the UK

It had 65% of its staff rated 4* and 30% 3* - in museum studies.

We can't even tell, after this £12m exercise whether the standing of UK universities is getting better or worse:

The RAE was last conducted in 2001 though in a different form - so comparisons between the results then and now are not readily possible.

Always take hype with a pinch of salt...

^After listening to you overhype the criticisms of the Tithebarn project for the past 2 years or so, I think we have all learned to take 'hype' with a pinch of salt (and the odd shot of vodka...)

Great news today about Cineworld being signed up for Tithebarn! Looking forward to the formal planning application in the new year :cool:

Looks like finally a few of our councillors are beginning to wake up and ask the kind of questions about Tithebarn they should have been asking a decade ago: http://www.lep.co.uk/news/No-plan-B-fears-over.4820173.jp

A little late now, but still a sign that pennies are beginning to drop.

A Plan B would be an unnecessary waste of time AND very costly. The council considered a variety of options for the area and chose what they considered to be the best one, editing it as time has gone by. If you are going to do something, you do it and make damned sure that you are choosing the best option. Developing a Plan B would be utterly futile.

I could understand demanding a Plan be if Tithebarn itself was looking doubtful. However renderings and sign ups are still apearing. if you had no intention of carrying the project through then why the hell would you waste your time.

Also its not as if Grosvenor are some two bit company. The can deliver, they have proved this in Liverpool. You just have to have abit of faith and stop second guessing everything at every step.

As ever, I've done my yearly tracking of posts on the Preston thread. This year has been fantastic. We have almost doubled last years total and have exceeded 1000 posts in a year for the first time.

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/9256/z1aj6.jpg

http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/1381/z2lu5.jpg

I have doubts that we can match this performance in 2009 with the recession etc, but with Tithebarn due to be submitted for PP in new year with detailed designs being released, as well as a handful of constructions due to start, I'm sure we will have plenty to talk about. When I first opened a Preston thread back in Feb 2004, I never imagined it would be as successful as it has been. I'm very proud of what we have accomplished :)

top stuff! my suspicion is the recession is going to hit far harder than forcast :( but we'll see. and riversider, oh no what is all this about Preston bus being taken over! u'd probably have to admit that downsizing the bus station is just common sense now considering how few services are likely to be left by the end of all this. all the best for 09 folks.

I think you're right Proud Preston about the amount of pain we're likely to feel as a consequence of a combination of the recession and the planning blight around Tithebarn.

I took a stroll round Preston city centre just this morning, already the casualties are piling up: http://www.prestonlancs.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=2302&st=0&#entry27809

Meanwhile here's an insight into how the NWDA like to spend our money: http://www.lep.co.uk/news/Quango-blasted-over-90000-39party39.4829809.jp

Oh the "planning blight" shit again. Oh the joy...

Atleast with Preston Bus on the way out you should finally be able to agree that we dont need a huge 80 bay bus station :)

Preston's huge Tithebarn rebirth could pump almost £40m into the city's economy before a single visitor arrives, it has been claimed.
But it is also claimed that large swathes of green space will be destroyed when construction work begins on the £700m project.

According to an environmental impact statement prepared as part of the ambitious scheme's planning application, thousands of construction jobs created as the project is developed will generate more than £23m for the local economy.

And developers say that when the project is completed, up to another £15m will be created by new employees taking up over 500 new jobs.

The population of the city could also increase by 1,175 if new apartments are snapped up.

Preston Council leader Ken Hudson said: "Tithebarn is absolutely massive for both Preston and the local economy in the North West.

"Everybody, especially in this economic climate, has got to welcome the positive aspects of the scheme with open arms."

But, according to the same report, the scheme will also affect the city's environment.

Around 70% of the green space within the 1.5m square foot development will be decimated, while 87 trees will be permanently lost.

Bosses behind the project say the impact on green space will be "short term."

The report, prepared by London-based firm Ramboll Whitbybird for the Preston Tithebarn Partnership, made up of developers Grosvenor and Lend Lease, admits that "the proposed development will involve the removal of 70% of the existing area of green space."

It adds that the scheme will "involve the unavoidable, permanent and entire loss of 87 trees."

Breeding birds will be "deterred from the retained areas," it adds, while the development will result in the "loss of two satellite roosts used by a low number of common and widespread species of bat."

However, the environmental report claims the loss of green space will be offset by "habitats of a greater diversity, connectivity and area" which will be created when Tithebarn is completed.

More trees will be planted and alternative bat roosts will be provided among a host of "mitigation" measures to protect the city's environment.
Coun Hudson added: "It will all be replaced. Preston is absolutely committed to the green agenda."

Its easy to loose 70% of the green space when there isnt much anyway. Are they talking about the bit next to the Tithebarn pub or is there more somewhere that i havnt noticed?

The only other bits I can think of are the small clusters of trees at either end of the bus station. The rat-infested patch of grass next to the pub is no great loss.