I don't think anyone will get steamed about the loss of green space, providing new trees are planted - we're talking about a City Centre here, not a precious river or green belt land.

I'm more concerned about the disparity in returns the figures suggest. Once the construction phase is completed, the 'new' jobs (which will largely be jobs sucked in from outlying towns, and even other parts of Preston) will generate only £15m pa for Preston, even by the optimistic figures put together by Rambo Whirlybird.

Assuming a very conservative return of only 5% pa on the initial investment of £700m, the developer should be clearing £35m pa, and presumably various banks will be receiving similar orders of magnitude in interest repayments.

The likely return to Preston people is therefore minuscule, when compared to the likely return to the property developers and other stakeholders, particularly when we have sacrificed so much.

You're ignoring money generated by the retailers and businesses inhabiting Tithebarn, who will probably rent their premises from Grosvenor. I'd imagine the £15m pa relates to private earnings from the jobs created.

The likely return to Preston people is therefore minuscule

I dunno, I'll save a fortune on train fares/petrol & reduced wear on my car for travelling into Preston as opposed to Manchester/Liverpool. As will many others...

Assuming a very conservative return of only 5% pa on the initial investment of £700m, the developer should be clearing £35m,

A 5% return on a £700m investment strikes me as miniscule.
8% is usually the bear minimum, 12% the average, and anything above that is what makes doing the job worth while.
When working as an architect on a traditional contract, where the architect is paid to act as the impartial arbitor of the contract, it is in everybody's interest if the builder / developer makes a fair profit. Otherwise, nothing would happen ever and we'd still all be living in the Stone Age.

12% would mean a return to the developer of £84m pa making the £15m that Preston people get out of it even more measly. Why should we get such a small slice of the cake, when we provided the bakery in the first place?

Caught an article last week in the LEP with critism against Tithebarn from a range of county and local councillors including the leader of blackpool council. Sorry if its been posted, can't find it at lep.co.uk.

I'll try and scan it.

Hot off the press...

City to get taste of restaurant quarter

10 January 2009
By David Coates
A former warehouse will be brought back to life in plans to build a double-decker restaurant quarter in Preston city centre.
Developers behind the Tithebarn regeneration scheme want to make the Grade II-listed building, on Lord Street close to the city's bus station, a central part of a "high-quality restaurant area" alongside the main retail heart of the £700m vision.

Anthony Gill, a project manager for the Preston Tithebarn Partnership, said the warehouse would be revived with a new two-level restaurant building built next to it.

There would be food kiosks next to the Guild Hall as part of the plans which developers said would "achieve continuity with the site's urban memory".

Mr Gill said: "The warehouse and the area around it will be made into an upmarket restaurant area which will provide people with somewhere nice to come and eat in Tithebarn.

"It will act as an important thoroughfare to Tithebarn Square, the central area of the scheme, during the day, then come alive in the evening.

"We hope this will not only encourage people to come to Tithebarn in the future, but encourage them to stay later in the day and night."

The area, which currently joins Tithebarn Street and Lancaster Road, would be renamed Lord's Yard as part of the plans which will go before Preston Council for permission in March.

In a detailed outline planning application the developers said: "A contemporary approach to the setting of the listed building, with a modern intervention adjacent, will create a distinctive dining quarter for Preston."

As well as the restored warehouse and new restaurant area, the plans include a small courtyard in the Lord's Yard area which they say will offer "a quieter area to sit away from the hustle and bustle of the primary pedestrian routes".

http://www.lep.co.uk/news/City-to-get-taste-of.4863069.jp

Any views? Looks ok from what I can see... Hope there's a Nando's going in somewhere!!

You can see the plans on the Council's website under the Tithebarn area. LOL, I am sure a Nando's will be going somewhere in all this!

An empty nightspot in Preston city centre could be set to get a new lease of life.
Unicorn Leisure – which owns Manyana in Church Street – has applied to Preston City Council for permission to open a late night bar in the former Mood building.

The new Honey Lounge bar aims to continue a mini-renaissance for Friargate's night life, following a former pub re-opened as a restaurant and champagne bar last year.

Gary Meehan, premises supervisor for Manyana, has applied to serve food and drinks and to provide entertainment until 3am seven days a week, with closing time at 3.30am.

He told the Evening Post that his bar would be a "new concept that Preston doesn't have at the moment."

"This is a huge risk for us but we think it's such a good site.
"We're in the middle of getting stuff through building control."

Ronnie Fitzpatrick, landlord of the nearby pub The Dog and Partridge, said: "Hopefully it will bring a bit of life back into Friargate.

It was a bit of a blow with the two bars, Mood and Bar Censsa, closing down.

"The more places there are for people to walk around the more people will walk around.

"Hopefully, with it being a late bar, they will stay in our pubs a bit longer before they head up there.

"There is nothing worse than empty buildings, especially with a pub sign outside – it makes an area look depressed, and this is not really a depressed area."

The former Duke of York pub was was given a full makeover last year and redeveloped as a restaurant and champagne bar – the latest of several reincarnations. In the 1990s it was re-named Ye Olde Politician before becoming Base, a venue for dance music fans.

Nice to see something is being done with Mood. Its an eyesore at the moment. The place was just left abandoned with everything still in it. I'm not sure how successful a bar would be in there TBH tho. That unit has a very strange footprint.

Loving the idea of that restaurant quarter! :) Finally, I can take my hoes out on a decent date in Preston! No longer will I have to make do with the romantic setting of the Capitol Centre :D

LOL.. in the meantime you can take them to the new East Z East on Church Street, very nice!

LOL.. in the meantime you can take them to the new East Z East on Church Street, very nice!

Yea i'll second that... great huge naans

That David Coates keeps coming out with great stories, huh?!:lol:

Anyway, some of you may have seen the story in Monday's paper about the growing number of empty shops in Preston - or seen the post Riversider put on prestonlancs.com.

It's here if you've not: http://www.lep.co.uk/news/39The-Government-has-betrayed-business39.4863028.jp

What I'm after is some informed debate on the matter, really, to see what people think is happening, why they think it's happening and what needs to happen to make things better.

The idea is that we'll package all the best comments up in an open letter which will be sent to Parliament (probably Lord Mandelson), all the local MPs and published in the Evening Post's business section, lepbusinessweek, before the end of the month.

So, the floor is open to you guys - feel free to post on here (I'll take comments, if that's okay with you lot), message me on here, email me at david.coates@lep.co.uk or give me a call on 01772 838162. The choice is yours.

Thanks as always,

David

Jeez Guys, a week and no posts? I replied to Coatsieboy - did anyone else?
On another note, dad sent a long and largely critical late response to "the powers that be" about the Flag Market competition. I know some of you rate his opinions on development stuff in Preston, but I figure it's not for me to post his thoughts here. But if anyone wants to PM me, I'll furbish you with a copy of his 4 page letter by email.

Are they still going ahead with the Flag Market development, likewise with Winklety Square.

The six entrants to the Flag Market comp have received their fees (£4,000 each) but I don't know if the additional first prize of £6,000 was awarded - I don't know of a winner being announced at any rate. Last I saw was from Ken Hudson in the LEP saying that elements from all 6 may be used. I suspect they'll hope it all gets forgotten about and they try again with a better brief in a few years and after the Tithebarn has got Planning Permission.
I think a Planning Application for Winckley Square should be going in about April. This will be fought tooth and nail by a wide variety of objectors.

£4000! Let me know when the next competition is. I'd be happy to submit my own entry - I'll photocopy my gluteus maximus and probably get first prize.

^^ You know im actually with him on this one, could do with £4000!

£4000! Let me know when the next competition is. I'd be happy to submit my own entry - I'll photocopy my gluteus maximus and probably get first prize.

Well it was widely publicised in all the trade literature widely subscribed to by all suitably qualified people and practices and available in most central libraries. As a regular user of The Harris, I'm amazed that you didn't know about it.

How does this whole entry thing work? You come up with an idea, submit it and get 4k? Or do you have to be somehow invited? Should really know this considering im an Architecture student.

How does this whole entry thing work? You come up with an idea, submit it and get 4k? Or do you have to be somehow invited? Should really know this considering im an Architecture student.
From general announcements to the trade, expressions of interest are made to the judges. From that list, a number are invited to make a design submission. Only those invited to submit get the fee - and frequently there isn't one, just a prize for the winner. By offering a fee, which generally only covers 25-50% of the cost of submitting the scheme, you will generally get a better quality of entrant because they will be sure not to be doing totally abortive work.

By offering a fee, which generally only covers 25-50% of the cost of submitting the scheme, you will generally get a better quality of entrant because they will be sure not to be doing totally abortive work.

What happened this time then?

What happened this time then?

Hence "generally".
One submission obviously spent a hell of a lot more than their fee in man hours for their design & presentation. tbf, they all probably spent at least £4k from what I could see, but 3 of the 6 schemes were totally crap.
Aiden Turner-Bishop blame the Landscape Institute for their selection of the shortlist.

4k to take a picture of the ditch at More London, because thats what one of them was! Nevermind eh.

http://www.lep.co.uk/news/Bus-station-battle-revived-on.4899075.jp?CommentPage=2&CommentPageLength=10#comments

Here we go again...

Pye won't let it lie.

Good on him, there are many more of the same opinion.

Whats the point when Preston is never going to need an 80 bay bus station? Dont you think it is a waste of prime city centre land when its not even at half capacity?

Pye won't let it lie.

Good on him, there are many more of the same opinion.

And there are many more who think otherwise.

http://www.lep.co.uk/news/Bus-station-battle-revived-on.4899075.jp?CommentPage=2&CommentPageLength=10#comments

Here we go again...

It never ceases to amaze me just how daft people are when it comes to the bus station. If tithebarn didnt exist, the very same people would be walking round moaning about what a horrendous mess the bus station is and how they should build a modern one. Afterall, that is exactly what people DID do before tithebarn came on the scene. People in Preston revel in having something to complain about me thinks!

^Truer words were never spoken

There's nothing wrong with the bus station that a bit of investment in a good cleanup wouldn't cure. You don't buy a new car every time the ashtray gets full.

Your point about the land it stands on goes to the heart of the issue. The developers wanted that land, and the developers got their way.

Strange then that it is us, the taxpayer, who will have to pay for the replacement. We're being kicked out of our house, offered a shed in replacement, and then told that we will have to pay for the shed.

The land issue the whole point of getting rid of the bus station. When you consider just how much land there is which is just concreted over. Not to mention the building itself which is only half used for buses. Its an inefficient waste of land in a place where the city centre is ripe for expansion. We should be densifying the city centre, not accepting what is a failed use of space. There is no where else where the city centre can expand to such a size whilst correcting an area that is utterly shit. Preston has to expand or fall behind.

Your acting like all the bus station needs is a lick of paint. It fails as a bus station. Its used at 50% capacity, therefore the only way to keep it would be to adapt it to a new use. Costing millions. The only logical thing that i could see the bus station ever being would be some sort of super civic centre and Preston just doesnt have the population to support one so big. Plus will the structure survive another 40 years? Hasnt it only been predicted to last another 10/15 as it was built on the cheap. Buildings like that can be saved, however it requires bucket loads of money to keep them going. The Metropolitan Cathedral in Liverpool is such an example. Ultimately you the tax payer will pay for it, are you willing for one building to be a drain on your wallet?

The new bus station is not a shed. I quite like the way they have played with the roof to compliment chruch street whilst not dumbing it down to much for the sake of being "inkeeping"

http://www.lep.co.uk/news/Mini-village-plan-for-students.4909517.jp

A student village will add more than 1,000 extra rooms to Preston's booming university.


Plans to demolish a 19th Century warehouse on Corporation Street and turn it into a five-storey block of 52 student flats will sit alongside a separate scheme to build a further 196 flats on an adjacent site, near the University of Central Lancashire city centre campus.

It sounds like this is going to get approved. It's a good location for student flats, and should help towards the regeration of the university end of Friargate. The building isn't particularly inspiring but it's okay for student flats I suppose.

so is this 'adjacent' development that they're announcing going next to where the recently leveled site is? opposite the marsh/harris buildings.

--edit--

Re-read the article and it mentioned the first developed to be proposed IS the one where the site has been levelled. But that render would be better suited to the levelled site I think, or maybe that is a render of that proposal.. either way, to have buildings of this mass along that road will look great, the one they've recently built next to the tin-shed student block, with the terracota tiles looks fair nice, along with the new hotel which adds a little bulk.. and it is a great location for student halls. Now all they need to do is develop the car park near Granthams.

so is this 'adjacent' development that they're announcing going next to where the recently leveled site is? opposite the marsh/harris buildings.

--edit--

Re-read the article and it mentioned the first developed to be proposed IS the one where the site has been levelled. But that render would be better suited to the levelled site I think, or maybe that is a render of that proposal.. either way, to have buildings of this mass along that road will look great, the one they've recently built next to the tin-shed student block, with the terracota tiles looks fair nice, along with the new hotel which adds a little bulk.. and it is a great location for student halls. Now all they need to do is develop the car park near Granthams.

The car park next to Granthams would be ideal for a landmark building. Hopefully, the Uni will identify this at some point and build big :cool:

I have heard talk at uni of them wanting to build a new faculty building for the school of architecture, (providing they get approved to teach architecture!).. and if so want to have a timber-framed structure.. but I'm not sure if they have a site in mind.

Big and expensive :)

Perhaps if they ever expanded into Sciences or something like that.

When they getting a school of architecture? Timber frames, could be interesting. Going off the School of Architecture here in Liverpool it will have to be a pretty sizable plot of land.

I think it could be this academic year, but I'm not sure.. they've been going through the motions with..whoever it is they need to, governing bodies and such. When they're getting around to building something mind, I ney know.. because they're redeveloping some of the ground floor space in Harris for the technology students (new IT suites, new drawing rooms, etc etc) nothing ground breaking, but saying that they spent £60k on painting an old communal room and making it a 'suite' for us to have lesson in, so God knows how much it'll cost to do these initial changes.

They may choose to demolish an existing building and replace it rather than find a new site. They have said they plan to demolish and replace buildings like Fylde and Kirkham over the next few years.

New signs have gone up at that demolished site on Corporation Street with renders on now.

http://editorial.jpress.co.uk/web/Upload/PRES//TH1_261200943FM001%20view%2003_publicity1.jpg

This is the future of Preston's historic Flag Market, complete with hi-tech electronic banners and a ring of trees.
After deliberations lasting five months the winner of the controversial competition to revamp Preston's civic square can be revealed today.

Design one, which includes a circle of trees around the Cenotaph and seven 17-metre high electronic banners – beat five other entries in the contest to redesign of the 800-year-old area.

A judging panel picked the design by Landscape Projects of Manchester who will now apply for funding to make the scheme a reality.

It follows calls from Lancashire Evening Post readers to leave the square as it is but council chiefs said it was important to restore Preston's civic spaces to complement the £700m Tithebarn regeneration.

Coun Anthony Gornall, cabinet member for environment and regeneration at Preston Council, said: "The Flag Market is historic, iconic and the jewel in Preston's crown and so it is vital that any future re-development is done properly.

"After very careful consideration and public consultation we have chosen a design which will complement the historic nature of the Flag Market but will also improve the area as a whole.

"It is, though, still early days. The next stage is to get more detailed
designs drawn up and then to do more public consultation so the final proposed development can properly reflect public opinion."

A council spokesman said the project was at an early stage but would be a "multi-million pound scheme".

In the coming months, Landscape Projects of Manchester will apply to the North West Development Agency for funding, after which a more detailed design will be drawn up.

More public consultation is then expected, running into 2010, with the scheme being earmarked for completion before the 2012 Guild.

The contest was launched in August 2008, sparking concerns from conservation groups the space would become cluttered and its historical importance lost.

In November, the Evening Post asked people to vote for their preferred design and number one was ranked in second place with 21% of votes.

The winner was design four (41%) which consisted of larger flag stones and a third monument alongside the obelisk and war memorial.

A council spokesman said it was not yet known if any flags would need to be removed for the winning design.

The national design contest was run by the Landscape Institute with Preston Council and Preston Vision Board.

can't go wrong with a ring of trees.. much rather this muted design that doesn't detract from the museum, town hall etc.

much rather this muted design that doesn't detract from the museum, town hall etc.

Me too

design one, which includes a circle of trees around the Cenotaph and seven 17-metre high electronic banners

Oh dear!

What are they going do display on said electronic banners?

Probably would be advertising if it happened. Similar to the Gateway screen in Manchester:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2235/2371824746_9004272e41_b.jpg

Its not a terrible idea. But I think that 17 is waaay too many (unless they are spread down Friargate too).

it says theres seven of them, but they're 17m tall..

all seem be clustered together mind, could lead to some good graphic design if some adverts were to animate through them all or jump from one to another.. as long as its tasteful.

A council spokesman said it was not yet known if any flags would need to be removed for the winning design.

This sums up Preston City Council. They choose a design, and it turns out they know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about how it will affect the flag market.

Makes you think they threw darts at the different entries, or just let their developer bosses choose on their behalf.

The clues in the name 'flag' market - those flags are important.

Does nobody think 17m high electronic banners might look a little bit stupid in an 800 year old square?

This sums up Preston City Council. They choose a design, and it turns out they know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about how it will affect the flag market.
The judging panel was NOT PCC - though I'm not sure exactly who it was.

Makes you think they threw darts at the different entries,
Indeed.

or just let their developer bosses choose on their behalf.
As they've now selected a winner (rather than a 'scheme' necessarily) and the next step is to find funding, this statement is demonstrably hogwash.

The clues in the name 'flag' market - those flags are important.
Agreed.

Does nobody think 17m high electronic banners might look a little bit stupid in an 800 year old square?
No, I believe lots of people think they will look stupid. The space might be 800 years old, but the setting is largely Victorian / Edwardian - a quibble perhaps, but certainly a valid one. I remain firmly of the view however (as posted earlier) that there's little point spending money on the Flag Market until the whole of Cheapside is demolished and replaced with something of aspirational civic quality, thereby providing a quality backdrop setting to this historic and much loved central city space.


More to the point, assuming the Tithebarn happens, it's scandlous to think that this brief was written and responded to in isolation from it. Joined-up planning? There's certainly no evidence of it.

Wasnt the figure for the redevelopment 6 million? Would much rather that money was spend demolishing cheapside. I wouldnt even object if they created another entrance to St Georges. However the problem would be what would you replace it with. Any replacement would probably be more controversial than the flag market redesign as many would be of the opinion that something mock victorian should be put there. Something which would be totally pointless considering Cubic exists.

Hopefully when Tithebarn is done they will so a similar thing to Liverpool and repave the entire city centre.

Be nice just to have some clarity and unity with the shopfronts, if nothing else.. redo the fronts to create a more usable space (covered canopy throughout to give it some flair and provide shelter for coffee tables etc)..

..or just knock it all down and replace it with shops to ground floor (with the same activity spaces outside) and apartments above, brick frontage.. nothing modern or unfitting for the area.. say 5 stories, nothing overbearing but.. progression from its predecessor.

"nothing modern or unfitting for the area" Would result in bland crap which although would be much better than what is there would be a wasted opportunity. Cheapside could potentially be one of the more interesting development sites in the city centre. Contextually its fantasic, being surrounded by Deans Court Chambers, Sessions House, The Harris and Miller Arcade. These buidlings can still hold there own eventhough cubic is massive. So i dont think there is a ange of damaging the square if something modern was built. Referencing, but not copying these buildings would be a much better way forward that some nondescript apartment block.

Though i doubt anything would happen due to ownership issues and such. Thought if only could be gotten rid of, Pizza Hut for example, the improvement would be massive.

http://www.cabe.org.uk/default.aspx?contentitemid=2949&refid=0&sl=

DO you think that PCC will listen to them.

I do agree with them on two points;

The car park on Ringway. The ringway in my opinion should be lined with dense buildings, creating a canyon effect. Never been happy with the carpark being on it. Personally i think that carparking should be underground. Guess its all down to cost really.

Secondly, Tithebarn Row as its been called. Now that i have thought about it i dont think it would work. South John Street in Liverpool is an example of what they are palling. However the topography of the site allows this to happen. What they have planned for Tithebarn Row is like developments for shopping malls of the 1960's, where the upper levels effectively are dead as there is no reason for people to go up there.

Very interesting report. It will be interesting to see what effect it has.

Thats a big let down.Whoever judged it got it very wrong.

I especially disagree with them on the bus station issue. Street drop off points? No thanks!

The Street drop off points are irrelevant anyway as LCC got rid of the idea.

The money for the Flagmarket 'revamp' with its 17m electronic banners (a 17m high two-fingered salute to the people of Preston) is to come from the NWDA, not the council, so the council think if they don't spend the money, they will be somehow missing out. The question the council should be asking is, 'If we did have the money ourselves, would we really want to spend it on this, or on something very different?'. If they cannot in full conscience say that they would do this with their own money, then they should not do it with someone elses.

In reality, both council funds and NWDA monies come from the taxpayer - but local democracy means that, in theory, we have slightly more control over our council than we do over the NWDA Quango.

BTW that CABE report on Tithebarn is unusually damning for something coming from them. I've written more about it on the Preston Lancs Website:
http://www.prestonlancs.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=523&st=540

'If we did have the money ourselves, would we really want to spend it on this, or on something very different?'

Perhaps you could give us some suggestions? You are full of "it's crap/it's crap, it's crap" to almost every single proposal for Preston. Yet any suggestions in their place seem few and far between.

I'd be tempted to add something to the bus station, but as any form of facts around usage/capacity/space management not to mention anything technical about the state of the structure etc will be utterly ignored by Riversider so there is no point. I'll just settle to say that Andrew Pye and his ilk are wankers and if they get to shout the loudest then Preston will be left to rot in a mess of piss-poor Sixties design and those of us who want to visit proper cities will have to continue trekking to Manchester and Liverpool. (or for that matter Lancaster - that is more of a city than Preston)

One recent building in Preston I think is really excellent, is the restoration made to St Augustine's church. It has kept the dramatic facade, and has a really useful set of community facilities behind it, it feels a great welcoming place that has preserved part of Preston's history and made it useful to local people. I'd recommend anyone to visit, and to have a sandwich at the excellent cafe there. Make sure you pay for your parking though, the clampers who haunt that area are particularly fanatical about their work.

"a mess of piss-poor Sixties design" is effectively what CABE say what Tithebarn is (follow Preston guys link and wince at their scathing critique!), and a few 17m high electronic banners and some metal letters hanging from the trees in Winckley Square are not going to make a difference to how people view Preston's architecture.
(or for that matter Lancaster - that is more of a city than Preston)
Lancaster is a wonderful city to visit, it's interesting with most of its historic buildings and layout preserved and respected, in a way they haven't been in Preston, so it feels like a real unique place, with a sense of community, rather than an identikit playground for retail conglomerates.

Lets not forget though that Lancaster is primarily a historic city. Preston is quite the opposite.

Lets not forget though that Lancaster is primarily a historic city. Preston is quite the opposite.

Preston does seem to be the opposite of a historic city, it seems to be a city whose leadership tries desperately to deny and expunge its history - not surprising perhaps given the rotten history of our city's leadership, who crave a tabula rasa so they can start again from scratch.

Destroying our history however makes us rootless, placeless, lost. If we don't know where we've come from, how can we know where on earth we are going? What makes us who we are? What are our values? What do we have to learn from?

People who have a history can use it as a base to build on. People whose history has been stolen from them live on shifting sands, at the mercy of every passing wind and fad.

is effectively what CABE say what Tithebarn is (follow Preston guys link and wince at their scathing critique!)

"Scathing critique?" Are you angling for a job on the LEP? The CABE report is a mix of positive overall statements about Tithebarn, plus a combination of constructive criticism (with some quite valid points IMO - though they should try a drive into Liverpool if they want to see a really BAD entry to a city!) and a little bit of emotive criticism, the part you appear to have concentrated entirely on.

I'd suggest people read the CABE report direct and make their own minds up rather than Riversider's highly biased opinions that make a Sun reporter look professional.

http://www.cabe.org.uk/default.aspx?contentitemid=2949&refid=0&sl=

The conclusion of the report makes it quite clear what CABE's attitude to this development is (here it is, unedited, except for one or two highlightings):

we remain somewhat concerned that the extent of the proposals and the monolithic nature of many of the blocks which appear to bring back something of the approach of 1960’s style comprehensive redevelopment, rather than integrating the proposed and existing buildings into a truly distinctive new future for Preston city centre. The scope of the development presents a welcome opportunity to heal the divisions created by the ringway and design for a post-ringway world; we are concerned that the masterplan could reinforce these divisions unless more care is given to how its buildings address it. Firmer commitments on sustainability should also be made to the satisfaction of the local authority. In light of all of the concerns raised above, we think that planning permission should not be granted for the current scheme.

This is astonishingly clear and direct language from a body which is charged with advising the government on architecture and the built environment. I do not see how even the most starry-eyed Tithebarn fanatic could have any other way to interpret this, except as a scathing critique.

After all these years, so much money and so much hype, the developers and the council should have come up with something much better, and much closer to what Preston people actually need.

I imagine their greatest concern stems from the multistory car park to the s/e of John Lewis which reinforces the lack of linkage across Ringway.
This could be solved with underground parking which is where it should be.

There are multiple problems with the development identified in the report Tark - the monolithic 'blocky' structure that is totally out of context with the rest of Preston (and which they say seems designed to celebrate the John Lewis store rather than improve pedestrian access), the inadequacy of the design of the new bus station, the low environmental standards being applied to the new buildings, the ignorance of new climate change targets and of community energy strategies, the way the area 'stitches in' (or more accurately fails to) with the rest of Preston etc.

All of these are pretty fundamental problems which will require major redesign to address, unless the council and developers decide to ignore CABE with the same level of arrogance as which they ignore the people of Preston.

They wernt critical of the new bus station at all. They suggested that its replacement should be of high architectural standards. Theres a difference. Notice also how they make no issue of the bus station capacity. Something which if CABE thought there was a problem with they would mention.

With the density issue i completely disagree. City centres should be made denser, yet again twisting what the report said. They had concerns over the blocky nature of one of the blocks, that it was far to big (something which a happen to agree with).

I hope the things that they take on board from the CABE report are;

The carpark on Ringway, get rid of it and put it underground.
Tithebarn Row, get rid of the multi-level aspect and make it wider.

Yes CJ, I disagree quite profoundly with their view that we can do without a bus station at all - when it is used by national coaches, regional and sub-regional buses, and by local buses, and could be used so much more by other existing and potential modes of public transportation. What they say on the bus station is much more in the language of hints and inferences that you might expect from a government advisor (making the directness of the rest of their comments even more stark). A skilled reader however should be able to infer that they are not sure that the design for the new bus station in any way approaches the architectural standards and excitement of what it replaces:

If the current approach for a central large bus station is followed, it should be an exciting new building, particularly bearing in mind the striking design of the present bus station. The local authority will need to assure itself that the treatment of the historic buildings along Church Street and their integration into the new structures around the proposed bus station, are given proper consideration.

By the way, has anyone read what people in LIverpool are saying about the L1 development?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/letters/article5621460.ece

By the way, has anyone read what people in LIverpool are saying about the L1 development?


Take no notice of Wayne he's a nutter,he'd have put a stop to every modern building built in Liverpool if he'd had his way.He thinks Chavasse Park was better the way it used to be.:nuts:

Chavasse Park was an urban wasteland before L1 was built. Not much unlike our Tithebarn area. The difference is, ours is much worse. Instead of greenspace, we have vast swathes of concrete, derelict taxi ranks, disused buildings, crumbling shopping arcades... and of course the precious bus station :crazy:

Some preservationists really need to take a real look at what they are trying to preserve.

Preston denys its history!!!! lol lol lol

Look at Tulketh Mill, Harris Square, in fact the vast majority of the city.... the tithebarn area is a dredge... god even coppull would be ashamed of it... nock it down build it tithebarn and we have the third city of the nw.

...... reinstate the true County of Lancashire

With reference to the Liverpool Article...

"The Liverpool Preservation Trust has fought to cling on to the historic fabric of the city while 46 listed buildings were destroyed. In Liverpool One the oldest merchant’s house in the city was buried under a car park and the first purpose-built dock in the world, Steers Dock, has been replaced with Milton Keynes on Sea."

46 listed buildings destroyed in the Liverpool One area? He having a laugh. Also the merchants house was infact demolished decades before, and it isnt under the car park, isnt it under john lewis? Equally you could read the user comments on the same article to get what is the opinion of the vast majority of Liverpudlians.

Back to Preston. Do you really think that if CABE hated the new bus station then they would not have just come out with it. They arn't exactly known for mincing their words so why would they here?

What other uses for the bus station would you suggest as far as transport goes? Before you say it trams dont have a terminus. Also if you believe that Preston will get trams within the next couple of decades then you would be wrong.

My comments about the contempt being shown for Preston's history by its leaders were related to the idea they've come up with of putting 17m high electronic banners around the flagmarket - but could equally apply to the way UCLAN treated the Harris Orphanage and the Observatory on Moor Park, (Even though, or perhaps because UCLANs Vice Chancellor plays a leading role in the Preston Vision Board), and the way numerous other of Preston's best buildings and spaces have been vandalised and turned into bland areas which could be virtually anywhere in the world. Lancaster has managed to keep hold of much of its character, though this is currently under threat too.

The question remains open about whether the Tithebarn area would still be a 'dredge' if it had not been under planning blight for the last decade+? The effect of the planning restrictions on this area meant it, and neighbouring areas were insulated from any chance of development during the boom years of the early 21st Century, while other towns developed much more successfully.

The key sentence in the CABE report, that should determine how the rest of it's contents should be interpreted, is the very last one: "planning permission should not be granted for the current scheme." How disastrous that all those expert planners and designers have spent all that time and money, and we've had to suffer such overblown hype for so long, for a project plan that dissapoints CABE so profoundly.

I do not see how even the most starry-eyed Tithebarn fanatic could have any other way to interpret this, except as a scathing critique.

Really?

We welcome the efforts to bring this part of Preston back to life and we think that the general strategies, in terms of quantum and size, are sound. The care that the design team has shown in analysing the existing city fabric in Preston is impressive.

First two sentences are positive statements. Those two sentences, whilst not inferring "Gold star - head of the class) immediately make it impossible to be anywhere near a "scathing critique." Amusing, given your love of slagging TB etc. off for overblown "hype." They must get lessons off you.

Re-reading it, the rest of the article is generally sound comments, but hardly the end of the world negativity you imply. It also generally avoids the overblown emotional hyperbole you spew out. I do agree with a number of points, equally there are many I disgree with particularly (surprise, surprise) around the bus station.

As for the Liverpool 1 comment, firstly a single letter and single supporting comment is not what people in Liverpool are saying about L1!!

Personally, http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=340218&page=101 is a far better read with regards to real people's opinions on L1.

I'm astonished at the lengths the Tithebarn fanatics will go to distort what the CABE document says, rather than addressing the criticisms it makes.

Jon quotes the first two sentences, to try and make it look positive, leaving out the great big 'BUT' that immediately follows them

Here's how it should read:

We welcome the efforts to bring this part of Preston back to life and we think that the general strategies, in terms of quantum and size, are sound. The care that the design team has shown in analysing the existing city fabric in Preston is impressive.
However, we have doubts that the nature of redevelopment on this scale is capable of realising the rich potential of this analysis.

Basically they're saying the initial studies were excellent, however the blocky monolithic structures being proposed just don't live up to them. Read the whole article (http://www.cabe.org.uk/default.aspx?contentitemid=2949&refid=0&sl=) rather than choosing a few convenient words.

Here's what they ask the developers and council to do: "We urge the team to address the issues raised in this letter, particularly with regard to connections through the proposed development and to the areas to the north and east, the introduction of large urban blocks and the design of the new bus station." - so they clearly ARE concerned about the inadequacy of the design of the new bus station.

You certainly can't duck away from that oh-so-telling final sentence: "planning permission should not be granted for the current scheme."

There's comment below your post as I refresh Riversider, but before I see it I'll respond in green...
There are multiple problems with the development identified in the report Tark - the monolithic 'blocky' structure that is totally out of context with the rest of Preston
Don't forget that Yorkminster was out of context with York when first built. The builders' social aspirations were much higher 1,000 years ago I suspect, but don't ever let size alone - or if you wish to consider just "blockyness", Firenze's Pallazzos (and which they say seems designed to celebrate the John Lewis store rather than improve pedestrian access), the inadequacy of the design of the new bus station (wrong place, see LCC), the low environmental standards being applied to the new buildings, (the same low standards applied universally to all new buildings in England and Wales through the Building Regulations) the ignorance of new climate change targets and of community energy strategies (as my last green brackets), the way the area 'stitches in' (or more accurately fails to) with the rest of Preston etc. Surely you must agree, that whilst we have a misaligned "Ringway", nothing can 'stitch in'?

All of these are pretty fundamental problems which will require major redesign to address, NO! Not necessarilly! It depends what questions you ask. It is evident from the arguments you've had on here with many folk that your solutions do not answer the fundamental problems of Preston as seen by many. Many of your opponents feel you exist in some pre-war Utopia with no real or economically practical solutions to Preston's chronic problems. unless the council and developers decide to ignore CABE with the same level of arrogance as which they ignore the people of Preston.
And pur-leease, Riversider, do not patronise EVERYONE in the general public, like most of us on SC, who support the principles of the Tithebarn as being some kind of retards who've 'bought in' to the promises. IT WILL NOT BE AS GOOD AS IT COULD OR SHOULD BE, but I think we're in this mess because we never have had a bold or visionary thinker. If planning issues were top of even 5% of the electorate's voting preferencecs, I'd stand as candidate for benevolent dictator.

Basically they're saying the initial studies were excellent, however the blocky monolithic structures being proposed just don't live up to them. Read the whole article (http://www.cabe.org.uk/default.aspx?contentitemid=2949&refid=0&sl=) rather than choosing a few convenient words.
I wonder if CABE know that they are not the final designs!

I don't think you can seriously compare the buildings proposed in the Tithebarn with York Minster or Firenze's Palazzos Tark, those places were built to last. In 30 years time most of Tithebarn will be tired, out of date, and will desparately need replacing.

If the council and the Vision Board goes out and admits like you that Tithebarn WILL NOT BE AS GOOD AS IT COULD OR SHOULD BE instead of continuing to pump hype at us about the incredible new golden age it will open up for Preston, then I will appreciate their honesty and feel much less goaded by their hyperbole.

John Lewis scales back expansion

John Lewis has had to put some of its expansion ambitions on hold after property developers shelved plans for new schemes.

According to the Financial Times, John Lewis had eight new stores in the pipeline, but some of them have been hit by developers delaying schemes.

John Lewis said that it did not know when developments in Oxford, Leeds, Sheffield, Preston, Dublin, Sprucefield, Northern Ireland, Crawley and Portsmouth would go ahead.

John Lewis has stores in Stratford in London and Cardiff due to complete this year.

http://www.drapersonline.com/news/2009/02/john_lewis_scales_back_expansion.html


John Lewis expansion hit by development delays

John Lewis expansion hit by delays to new shopping centres

John Lewis is being forced to scale back its expansion as many plans for new shopping centres are shelved by developers.

The department store chain had planned to open eight stores over the next few years but according to The Financial Times some of these will now be postponed.

John Lewis said that dates for developments in Oxford, Leeds, Preston, Sheffield, Dublin, Sprucefield, Northern Ireland, Crawley and Portsmouth were unclear.

It said that it may build smaller shops, which would be around 100,000 sq ft – about a third smaller than its typical stores.

Hammerson and Westfield are just two developers that have delayed developments as the credit crunch tightens its grip on funding.

Westfield said yesterday that the time frames for planned shopping centres in Bradford and Guilford could be extended.

Hammerson is also expected to postpone its Eastgate Quarter project in Leeds and its £600m Sevenstone development in Sheffield.

http://www.retail-week.com/Property/2009/02/john_lewis_expansion_hit_by_development_delays.html

Now we'll really see the consequences of putting all our development eggs in one basket.

I think what amuses me about the whole tripe Riversider spews out is his hypocrisy. It brings me to mind of a Blackadder scene:

Captain Darling: So you see, Blackadder, Field Marshall Haig is most anxious to eliminate all these German spies.
General Melchett: Filthy hun weasels, fighting their dirty underhand war!
Captain Darling: And fortunately, one of our spies...
General Melchett: Splendid fellows, brave heroes risking life and limb for Blighty!

Whenever the Preston Vision Board comes up with something, Riversider dismisses it out of hand, no question. Someone like CABE struts along and every word is hung onto with glee and no questions! As far as I can tell, both organisations are self-appointed "experts" with nothing to differentiate them.

So, the above could easily become:

Prestonian: So you see, Riversider, people are most anxious to eliminate the plans of the Preston Vision Board.*
Riversider: Clueless numpties, not caring about the people of Preston!
Prestonian: And fortunately, CABE... **
Riversider: Splendid fellows, fully aware of the best options

* Based in Preston
** Based in London

Yet, the people who want Tithebarn are patronisingly called "fanatics" but this somehow doesn't apply if they show any negativity. Essentially Riversider, you are a patronising tosser who desperately wants Preston to rot. I have no idea what interests you are protecting, but when it comes to moronic claims of "hyperbole" you need to take a long, hard look in the mirror.

In 30 years time most of Tithebarn will be tired, out of date, and will desparately need replacing.


Much like the Bus Station which is tired, out-of-date and desparately needs replacing.

Whenever the Preston Vision Board comes up with something, Riversider dismisses it out of hand, no question. Someone like CABE struts along and every word is hung onto with glee and no questions! As far as I can tell, both organisations are self-appointed "experts" with nothing to differentiate them.


JonH, If you read my posts properly, you'll see that I've explained which parts of the CABE report I agree with, and which I disagree with. I think this is a more honest approach than using partial quotes from the report to justify a pro-Tithebarn position.

Preston people have seen incredibly stupid planning decisions pile on top of each other over the last few decades as our council allow developers to walk all over them. It is perfectly realistic and fair to say that all Tithebarn has brought us so far, despite all the hype, is further delay and frustration for people who want to see real progress and development in Preston, and further problems for those trying to do business in Preston City Centre today.

Essentially Riversider, you are a patronising tosser who desperately wants Preston to rot. I have no idea what interests you are protecting, but when it comes to moronic claims of "hyperbole" you need to take a long, hard look in the mirror.
I hope we can continue to conduct our debate in future without descending to playground language - those who resort to such language are usually sub-consciously realising that they are losing the argument.

I hope we can continue to conduct our debate in future without descending to playground language - those who resort to such language are usually sub-consciously realising that they are losing the argument.

Probably stems from the frustrating knowledge that any effort to provide rationale debate with you (e.g. attempting to prove that the proposed new bus station is adequately sized, or that the location is better than the current one - if not perfect) is met by stony silence or airy dismissal with no back-up. Ditto requests as to what YOU would suggest in place of many proposals gets short shrift.

http://www.lep.co.uk/news/39Toy-Town39-fears-over-student.4942358.jp

This article is a load of bollocks. I especially liked this quote:

I think it's a disgrace that we're allowing the university to spoil our city because they've spoilt Moor Lane
:rofl:

Okay lets see what the student flats on Moor Lane replaced... 3 blocks of poorly built council flats, an abandoned warehouse, a closed pub, and a derelict auto repair centre. Moor Lane has well and truly been screwed over!!! :lol:

Me wonders what Preston would be like without all these 'toy-town' dwellings for all these thousands of students, keen to splurge out their student loans in all the nearest shops, eateries and pubs.. :|

http://www.lep.co.uk/news/39Toy-Town39-fears-over-student.4942358.jp

Okay lets see what the student flats on Moor Lane replaced... 3 blocks of poorly built council flats, an abandoned warehouse, a closed pub, and a derelict auto repair centre. Moor Lane has well and truly been screwed over!!!

Good point. It's just a shame for the next 60 years that it's been replaced by 'building', rather than 'architecture'. A planner at PCC said to me a couple years ago that he wished for a 'landmark building' as a gateway marker to Preston city centre as road users come over the brow from the north on Garstang Rd by Moor Park. The Moor Lane student residences are self-evidently well short of that

Given our climate & vernacular, why are no major buildings designed with a pitched roof these days? We end up with lots of small boxes housing lift motors stuck on flat roofs and a/c plant. And inevitable leaks. The roof IS the fifth elevation, but most developers seem to have lost sight of that. I'll stop now, before RS agrees with me!

Too late Tark. While I usually disagree with you, I can see you think for yourself, and argue from a position of knowledge and experience, your point about pitched roofs is well made - they look better and are more practical - developers usually prefer to short change us with the cheaper and less durable option.

Terry Cartwright is usually one of the few councillors who asks decent questions. On this occasion I have to disagree with him, there's nothing intrinsically wrong with housing students, and there is a clear demand for this type of accomodation in Preston, and there's no doubt students help keep the lower end of Friargate as one of the most interesting and characterful parts of the City Centre.

A planner at PCC said to me a couple years ago that he wished for a 'landmark building' as a gateway marker to Preston city centre as road users come over the brow from the north on Garstang Rd by Moor Park.
These characters love their 'landmark' buildings don't they, all kinds of monstrosities, and a very few gems have been created by planners aiming to create 'landmarks' - Of course we already have a couple of interesting buildings on Garstang Road - such as the English Martyrs Church, which we simply don't make enough of. There used to be a great community centre next to it, which I visited for a variety of reasons, including one of my friend's Asian wedding reception, but a few years ago the church sold it off to developers to build accomodation for businesses and 'high quality flats' - another loss of much needed community facilities for Preston people - especially in that area.

Another nice building is the Unicorn pub - a surviving island of Preston history in a sea of retail warehousing - even more enjoyable from the inside.

Meanwhile our council are doing everything they can to avoid a public and democratic scrutiny of the effects of the Tithebarn proposals: http://www.lep.co.uk/news/39Public-inquiry-could-jeopardise-Tithebarn.4947975.jp

http://www.lep.co.uk/news/39Toy-Town39-fears-over-student.4942358.jp

This article is a load of bollocks. I especially liked this quote:


Agreed, though my favourite was the idiot who is such a "Proud Prestonian" that he lives in Dubai.

^Indeed. A lot of the critics of Tithebarn and Riverworks were ex-pats, which is slightly annoying.

Terry has the wrong target - the University should be criticised for its neglect of the Moor Park observatory, for selling off the Harris Orphanage, and now for putting the Harris Institute onto the open market.

UCLAN and Malcolm McVicar had a responsibility to Preston to look after these historic buildings properly - especially as McVicar sits on the Vision Board. They are part of the history of our town, and of UCLAN itself.

It seems clear they wish to duck this responsibility.

UCLAN has a responsibility to provide learning to its students, who pay a lot of money for UCLAN's services. If it is felt that this money could be better spent to improve that service by selling off costly buildings, then it is fully justified.

UCLAN brings an awful lot to Preston (certainly a lot more than the moaners who constantly complain about it), however it is under no obligation to do so. It has nothing to prove. Its a home grown institution which outdates all of Preston's citizens.

UCLAN has a responsibility to provide learning to its students, who pay a lot of money for UCLAN's services. If it is felt that this money could be better spent to improve that service by selling off costly buildings, then it is fully justified.

I wonder whether you would say that to Oxford or Cambridge. These universities cleverly use their history and their amazing architecture as part of what makes them special - the 'dreaming spires' enhance their reputation just as much as the profound thoughts of the academics that they house.

UCLAN is one of the forces in Preston which seems intent on denying and destroying its history, and creating a kind of fantasy modernity. The fabric of such fantasies is all too thin. Their dreams, like the work of the Vision Board itself, could well prove to be ephemeral.

Heres a quote from Alfred North Whitehead on what Universities SHOULD be for:

The university imparts information, but it imparts it imaginatively.

At least, this is the function which it should perform for society.

A university which fails in this respect has no reason for existence.

This atmosphere of excitement, arising from imaginative consideration, transforms knowledge. A fact is no longer a bare fact: it is invested with all its possibilities. It is no longer a burden on the memory: it is energising as the poet of our dreams, and as the architect of our purposes.

Using beautiful old buildings can only add to the imaginative experience of students, raising their souls beyond the mundane. Stick them in identikit boxes, and churn them out on a conveyor belt seems to be the chosen alternative.

Just copying in an email which I've received which may interest some of you. Unfortunately, I can't go as my ferry to Shetland will be weighing anchor from Aberdeen at that time. :)

As Chair of the Preston and South Ribble Civic Trust I would like to inform you of the consultation the Council is undertaking on updating the appraisals for the Avenham, Market Square and Winckley Square Conservation Areas. The documents can be viewed through the following link on the Council’s website http://www.preston.gov.uk/environment-and-planning/planning/design-and-heritage/heritage/conservation-areas/ (http://www.preston.gov.uk/environment-and-planning/planning/design-and-heritage/heritage/conservation-areas/) .

There is also a consultation event for the Avenham and Winckley Sq Conservation Areas at the Avenham Park Pavilion on the 10th February at 6.30pm. At this the consultants appointed by the Council – Kathryn Sather Associates will give a presentation on the key aspects of the conservation areas along with details of the proposed changes to their boundaries. There will also be an opportunity for members of the public to raise any questions relating to the appraisals with myself or the consultants. The display boards used for the event will be available for viewing at the pavilion for the remainder of that week.

Letters have been sent or are in the process of being sent to all addresses within the conservation areas but I would be grateful if you could publicise the event to members of the Civic Trust and anyone else you make think would be interested.

I look forward to hearing your response to the consultation.

Regards,

Nigel Roberts
Principal Urban Designer
Preston City Council
01772 906594

Not many skyscrapers or major retail developments in Shetland Tark, what possible reason would there be to go there, with nothing but undeveloped countryside and ancient crofters dwelling places to look at?

Not many skyscrapers or major retail developments in Shetland Tark, what possible reason would there be to go there, with nothing but undeveloped countryside and ancient crofters dwelling places to look at?
OK - I'll allow the ironic "wit"...
My ex-lodger is from Unst, Britain's northernmost inhabited island - 2 more ferries after Mainland (the name of the island Lerwick is on). I went there for the first time last May - and actually came back with a sun tan! You may have seen a picture on P2 of the LEP about 10 days ago featuring the Lerwick Up Helly-Aa; a festival of Viking times to mark the end of winter and encourage the spring, when after a torchlit parade in Viking clothes, a burning longboat is sent out into the sound (bay). This year his older brother is the Unst Up Helly-Aa Jarl Geizer - i.e. the chap in charge of the team that create the boat to be burned and general organizer in chief. The festival goes on for 3 days involving much music, dancing and enough beer to kill off the population of a smal Bavarian town. So it's a chance to experience old island culture from the inside, being part of a resident family rather than just as a tourist. I'm really looking forward to it. :cheers:
There is some notable new(ish) architecture too. The school my friend went to was designed by the late James Stirling and some interesting MOD family housing from Cold War days. What I didn't see last time was the Shetland Museum & Archives completed in 2007 by BDP and which has since won a number of top design awards:
http://www.bdp.com/Projects/By-Name/P-Z/Shetland-Museum-And-Archives/?category=25&parentpageid=37
This is of course, the same practice responsible for Preston Bus Station and its long awaited replacement :bash: !

The scenery is generally lovely too, with it being almost impossible to find a vista without both mountain and body of water - my favourite combination. The cliffs at Esha Ness are particularly striking:
I'd put in a picture I took here - but I don't know how to, as it's on my PC and doesn't have a URL - whatever that is.


On another matter, last night I went to visit a friend of mine from when we did our MSc's in Urban Renewal at LJMU 13 years ago. She works for British Waterways these days, and had a large involvement in the extension of the Leeds-Liverpool canal to Pier Head and Albert Dock. She was commenting about the public realm in this part of Liverpool City centre and noted that the Grosvenor L1 development areas are notable for their high quality finishes, durability and workmanship. Then as one walks over to the Echo Area and on to spaces commissioned by the city council, flags are chipping, expansion joints failing, surfaces subsiding and so on.
This is simply her observation, but backs up my decades of experience of Grosvenor: that they are one of the few developers prepared to invest in quality to ensure that their portfolio retains its value into the long term and resulting in lower maintenance and on-costs in to the future. The vast majority of politicians on the other hand only look as far as the next election and simply want to be seen to have done something by the next time we go into a polling booth - usually a maximum of 3 years away for councillors. It is however fair to point out that a Council's budgets for any given project are pretty much fixed from the outset, whereas a firm like Grosvenor can inject addition capital as and where found necessary (to reiterate) to enhance and retain the value of their investment.

ANOTHER Planning Application for the Fox Street site. This time in two halves and possibly covering a wider area: a seven storey element to give a larger hotel but no apartments and a twleve storey element to house... student flats?
*Fox Street Car Park and 52-62 Corporation Street: Erection of 7 storey building containing 140no. bed hotel and ground and first floor Class A3 (Restaurants and Cafes) and/or Class A4 (Drinking Establishments) uses.
*44-62 Corporation Street: Erection of 12 storey building to contain mission church (Class D1) and Class A3 (Restaurants and Cafes) or Class A4 (Drinking Establishments) uses on ground floor and student accommodation on other floors (approx. 55 5-bed units) (outline application)
Looks like the architects are these guys: http://www.stridetreglown.co.uk/

and this is a replacement proposal for the curved, coloured 10 storey hotel with the box on top??

Sadly, it must be!

She was commenting about the public realm in this part of Liverpool City centre and noted that the Grosvenor L1 development areas are notable for their high quality finishes, durability and workmanship.

I quite agree. The last time I was in L1, I was by the stepped area next to John Lewis and my eye was drawn to the obvious quality of the paving materials and the standard to which they had been laid.

Similarly the buildings seem to have been well constructed compared.

This is an actual experience which I use when considering my own opinions on Tithebarn.

Afternoon all,

Just wanted to point you in the direction of a web chat we're doing online at www.lep.co.uk next Tuesday around the issue of property.

Expect Tithebarn, regeneration, commercial property and other such development-shaped topics to come up.

See here for more:
http://www.lep.co.uk/businessnews/Your-chance-to-ask-about.4967652.jp

I'm sure you informed gents could chip in with some suitable questions to the panel which includes Michael Conlon (Conlon Construction), Frank McKenna (Downtown Preston in Business), Mick Goode (Croft Goode Architects), John Chesworth (Harrison Drury Solicitors, commercial property experts), Tony Medcalfe (Moore and Smalley accountants), Joe Assalone (Robert Pinkus and Co, commercial property consultants) and Sean Williams and Peter Mileham from the Yorkshire Bank - with yours truly in the chair.

If you don't want too or can't get on the webchat but fancy asking a question to any of these folk, feel free to email me one beforehand at david.coates@lep.co.uk or message me here.

Cheers,

David

A very one-sided panel David - more interesting debate might have been obtained by inviting some of the 'development sceptics' to add in a less financially interested point of view.

A very one-sided panel David - more interesting debate might have been obtained by inviting some of the 'development sceptics' to add in a less financially interested point of view.

And I don't read posts properly... :ohno:

If you don't want too or can't get on the webchat but fancy asking a question to any of these folk, feel free to email me one beforehand at david.coates@lep.co.uk or message me here.


Gee whizz, that looks like an invitation to me!

It's an invitation to be one of the plebeians who ring up, rather than one of the 'knowledgeable experts' on the panel itself Jonh, there's a clear difference.

Perhaps Ted Matthews should have been invited, who wants a REFERENDUM on the whole thing:

Don't make our city a faceless clone
Will someone on Preston Council please stand up and be counted, by calling for a referendum and stopping the demolition of our market and bus terminal?
With an ever increasing 'grey' brigade of bus users (of which I am one), replete with national bus passes; a deepening recession and a central government supposedly committed to a drastic reduction in carbon emissions, why on earth is Preston Council seemingly determined to allow this act of social and environmental vandalism?
Apart from being a unique example of strategic placement and
architectural brilliance, our bus terminal speaks volumes for the sadly lamented foresight of our previous elected representatives.
This place should be recognised as the jewel in Preston and Lancashire's crown; a public transport facility unsurpassed by any thing in London, Birmingham, Manchester or Liverpool.
We should be retaining and preserving all that say 'this is Preston'. We have an historic and envied market culture which the council and we as citizens should sustain and seek to promote.
If so called quality outlets can't be attracted to use existing vacant premises, then let's do without them.
We are in the main, more Primark than Prada; more practical than pretentious and definitely proud to be Prestonians, nothing more or nothing less than we have ever been.
All that has been achieved by the Liverpool 1 Project is a character assassination of traditional landmarks and a transfer of business from one area to another.
Look at what is happening all around this country of ours; town centres are all starting to all look the same. We as a nation and Preston as a city, are in danger of losing all vestiges of character and quirky identity.
Stop the rot.
Ted Matthews, via email

So basically 'Ted', "We are Preston.. we are the recession-smitten, bus pass weilding 'grey brigade' who want 3 tees for a fiver from primark' - come visit us.. yep, that's a great mantra for the 'freshest city in the UK'. The term 'I'm alright, Jack' springs to mind.

Infact forget all that, 'STOP THE ROT' (?!?!!!!!) Says it all.. Stop the rot? by keeping whats already rotten?! Arsehole, me thinks.

'All that has been achieved by the Liverpool 1 Project is a character assassination of traditional landmarks'

Can anyone explain what he means by this?

Perhaps Ted Matthews should have been invited, who wants a REFERENDUM on the whole thing:

So just because a handful of people can't accept a democratic decision we should waste a few million on a referendum? Lets be realistic please.
The quote that you posted was full of nonsense, he clearly has put very little thought into what he wrote. Observe.

Will someone on Preston Council please stand up and be counted, by calling for a referendum and stopping the demolition of our market and bus terminal?
Since when were the markets being demolished? And I hope for the sake of his taste that he isn't talking about the indoor markets...

With an ever increasing 'grey' brigade of bus users (of which I am one), replete with national bus passes
I fail to see the point on this one.

a deepening recession and a central government supposedly committed to a drastic reduction in carbon emissions, why on earth is Preston Council seemingly determined to allow this act of social and environmental vandalism?
As much as the doom mongergers would like to believe it, we will not be in a recession forever. If we don't update our retail offer, we will go into the next upturn with a massive disadvantage over our competitors.

As for the environment, he does realise the bus station is being replaced doesn't he? Or has he not bothered to research that either? I cannot see any other environmental loss. Its not as though any trees will be lost. In addition, the style of planning that the current area possesses is from an age where planning revolved around CAR USEAGE. You can't really do much worse than that.

Apart from being a unique example of strategic placement and
architectural brilliance, our bus terminal speaks volumes for the sadly lamented foresight of our previous elected representatives.
Is this a joke? The strategic placement of the bus station is awful! Granted, the new one isn't fantastically placed, but its still better than the current one! My evidence? The thousands of people who catch their buses elsewhere in town. Architectural brilliance? Its unique, but its also fuck ugly. Its also a terrible example of practical planning. Just ask the hundreds of people who cross the apron to get to the place.

This place should be recognised as the jewel in Preston and Lancashire's crown; a public transport facility unsurpassed by any thing in London, Birmingham, Manchester or Liverpool.
The bus station is an embarrassment to Preston. Visitors arriving at the bus station must get the impression that they have arrived in a right dump of a town. Places like the Flag Market, County Hall, and Winckley Square are the jewels in Preston's crown. Not a glorified car park.

We should be retaining and preserving all that say 'this is Preston'. We have an historic and envied market culture which the council and we as citizens should sustain and seek to promote.
Should we really be retaining and preserving things that say
'this is Preston: its really crap'? And you can't force people to shop somewhere. Trade is dictated by demand, and it always has been. If people don't want to shop at markets in their traditional form, then we shouldn't be trying to force them to.

If so called quality outlets can't be attracted to use existing vacant premises, then let's do without them.
Great plan Einstein... :ohno:

We are in the main, more Primark than Prada; more practical than pretentious and definitely proud to be Prestonians, nothing more or nothing less than we have ever been.
What a defeatist attitude. What he is basically saying here is that Prestonians are a step below people in places like Manchester and Liverpool. There is nothing wrong with having a bit of variety. I often like to splash out every now and again on something special and a little more expensive, but I can also appreciate value retailing. Don't believe me? I work in Matalan.

All that has been achieved by the Liverpool 1 Project is a character assassination of traditional landmarks and a transfer of business from one area to another.
ONE SHOP has relocated and closed its previous outlet. And what traditional landmarks were destroyed exactly? A car park? Maybe he should take a look at how many old buildings were RESTORED by Grosvenor.

Look at what is happening all around this country of ours; town centres are all starting to all look the same. We as a nation and Preston as a city, are in danger of losing all vestiges of character and quirky identity.
Quirky identity? That was lost decades ago. Yes, its a big shame, but whats done is done. As for Preston's remaining individual character, the current Tithebarn is hardly representative of that. Its an identikit style of planning that was replicated in hundreds of towns and cities across the country in the 1960's. For the past ten years, many of those towns and cities have spent millions trying to rebuild those areas. Preston, unfortunately has not.

Riversider,

I look forward to receiving your question, which will be one I can put to the panel - or I could even find a chair for you at the table, if you fancy 'outing' yourself.

Over to you.......

David

It will be nice to have a session where the discussion is purely informative and questions are constructive. Not a bunch of protesters with chips on their shoulders, finding out between themselves who can shout the loudest ;)

I've spent the past hour or so consolidating Preston's presence on SSC into one thread to bring it in line with forum requirements. The following changes have been made:

- wjfox has changed the thread name conform with standard title format

- The projects list thread has been ditched and will no longer be updated. The list is now on the first page of this thread. I've also changed the hyperlink in my sig to match

- I've also updated the list. There have only been a few additions. Most of the work was taking away developments that have been completed or have gone quiet for too long

I was gonna say the other day that it would be nice if the thread title corresponded with the other like-wise threads for everywhere else.. so a good (if small) addition.

Good work, Accura!

Apart from being a unique example of strategic placement and
architectural brilliance, our bus terminal speaks volumes for the sadly lamented foresight of our previous elected representatives.


Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear.

I shall tell you a story about our precious bus station & car park. Unlike Riversider, I make regular use of the facility through using the car park that sits above it. However, I only use it on Sundays, any other time I use Avenham. The reasons for this is that on a Sunday it is free and I am pretty much certain I can get a space on the first parking level. As I am with my wife and toddler and have a pushchair, this means I can use the bridge across to the Guildhall.

Yesterday, we parked up and got out and headed for this bridge.

Problem 1

The bridge was closed "for maintenance." Well, some tools and stuff were strewn about, there was no sign of any workers.

Problem 2

The car park lifts only serve every other floor! So, if you need to use a lift, only half the car park is actually available for you. So, having parked up and walked down to the end of the building, we then had to walk up one of the traffic ramps, ignoring the "Do not..." signs. Yes, I suppose we could have gone back to the car and driven to a proper city (COUGH) I mean up to the next floor, but the fuss of getting little one back into the car etc.

Problem 3

Not all the lifts were working. Whatever PCC spend the parking fees they do make on, it isn't lift maintence, inoperative lifts are routine in the bus station, Avenham and Market car parks.

So, instead of going out via the Guildhall, we have to pass a stinking stairwell, down in a stinking lift to the sub-basement and take a considerable detour to where we were going!

So, this "unique example of strategic placement" had us going up a level, down to a basement, back up a level and a good distance further than if, say, we had caught a bus to the new bus station location! Or parked in another car park!

So, the more I see Riversider and his ilk harping on about the importance of the Bus Station, the more I am convinced that they have never actually used it or have very little understanding of the real world.

As a bus user, I only used the station at busy times to ensure getting a seat on the bus, going into town, I always got out earlier.

Coatsie, let us know if RS takes you up on your offer. I for one will not hold my breath, he is all critisicm and no suggestion in the experience of this website and the LEP comments section.

Random question guys. Does anyone have any pictures of the tent from Radio Ones Big Weekend. Doing a project at the moment and im thinking of a canopied building.

you're not at Uclan doing AT or somet are you? haha.. There were some on google, because I used them for a presentation a few month back..

Im at Liverpool doing real Architecture :lol:

Doing a Recycling centre at the moment and apparently you can make umbrellas out of old plastic bottles so why not a full blown canopy! Was thinking i could partically use the tent as a precident. Know of any canopy buildings? Already thought of the daddy of them all, the o2 arena!

Some interesting points raised at the Leaders' Lunch event this lunchtime, you can see the debate here:

http://www.lep.co.uk/business

A few technical difficulties meant we lost the first ten minutes, which were mostly about the residential property market.
It picks up where we are getting into the Tithebarn/regeneration-type debate.

Any comments would, as always be appreciated.

Cheers,

David

Just watched it from start to finish. Really enjoyed watching that. Very good debate! :)

It should be the first item screened in the new Tithebarn cinema. If it were I'd come to watch it with you Accura - and bring popcorn.

It should be the first item screened in the new Tithebarn cinema. If it were I'd come to watch it with you Accura - and bring popcorn.

Awwww.......you'd make a lovely couple!

LEP Story (http://www.lep.co.uk/news/39Mill-plans-will-proceed39.5025943.jp)

Carphone Warehouse are going to build a hotel, shops and bars in Tulketh Mill apparently. It seems like a strange time to go ahead with the project, but this could be quite good. I used to work in Tulketh Mill when it was Littlewoods call centre, and the place is absolutely huge. The top two floors are just standing empty; if that is where the hotel will go then it should be quite interesting.

There's also loads of parking round the back of the mill, so it could be a good location for building shops and bars, and could help to rejuventate Lane Ends.

It'll be good to see it actually used for something, rather than just lying derelict., and doing it sooner rather than later can only be for the benefit of the local community with the extra cash it'll bring in.

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/retailing/article5886941.ece

So much for arrogant high stakes gambling with our future. If our leaders had listened to the people and compromised over the bus station, we'd already have a Tithebarn development. Instead they went for all or nothing.

Also this on the BBC Website: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7936786.stm which states:

John Lewis plans to open its first department store in Wales in September, in Cardiff, and construction has begun on a shop at the Olympic site in Stratford, scheduled to open in 2011.

Beyond those two projects, the company said all its new store plans had been delayed.

More delay, more stagnation for Preston thanks to undemocratic technocratic planners who always fail to listen. Will they ever learn their lesson?

Read the article properly. John Lewis have said that that it will continue to expand as long as developers complete their premises. Believe it or not, Tithebarn stands a much greater chance than many of their other proposals because it is a regeneration project (state funding) and not a privately built shopping centre.

I thought it was privately funded.
http://www.prestontithebarn.com/questions.htm#

QUESTION 5
WHO WILL PAY FOR IT?
The scheme will be entirely privately funded by Preston Tithebarn Partnership.

Exactly how much public money has been tied up in this, that we're not being told about?

Read the article properly.

Fat chance, Riversider only sees what fuels his hatred of capitalism. (I'm still mystified as to how he funds his existence)

Always hilarious seeing his dislike of John Lewis coming out given the fact that it is employee owned (they've all earned a bonus of 13% of their salary) and the "never knowingly undersold" promise that makes them potentially one of the cheapest stores on the High Street (and cost them £5 million). Still, his lack of knowledge about what he rails against is readily readable here (continuous ignoring of facts, actual experience of using the beloved bus station that he never does etc.).

Don't recall saying anywhere that I don't like John Lewis. 'Read the article properly' applies in all directions.

http://www.lep.co.uk/news/Bus-station-pedestrianisation-plan.5062128.jp

Interesting article in the LEP about how the are effectively closing half of the bus station. Will prove the point that the bus station as it is is completely a waste of space.

Actually Riversider you have claimed that John Lewis was only for the well off. Eventhough it is one of the cheaper department stores. They even complete with the internet on their prices. Something which must cost them alot of money and they dont actually have to do. i.e. no other high street store actively does it.

I don't believe I have said that John Lewis was only for the well off.

What I did say (which is different in important respects), was that the people planning the Tithebarn development have not thought about those who currently use the city centre who are pensioners or families on benefits, or who rely on buses to travel, and certainly don't seem to care much about them. Hudson confirmed this recently with his attacks on the discount stores on Cheapside, saying he'd like them replaced with the kind of shops you get in York. Seems to me that our leaders don't particularly like the kind of people that live and shop in Preston, and are trying to design a different city, in the hope that we all go away.

Whey got my internet back! :D been hard times missing out on all the banter of Skyscrapercity thread!

So hang on one darn second... If the "Preston Bus" side is pedestrianised... that means the building will house half the number of bus bays ...making it nowhere near the largest in Europe! So perhaps when people realise that little fact, prestonians may finally shake off the "pride" factor of that frightful monstrosity once and for all!!!

Whey got my internet back! :D been hard times missing out on all the banter of Skyscrapercity thread!
You haven't missed much lol. Its been very quiet around here...

So hang on one darn second... If the "Preston Bus" side is pedestrianised... that means the building will house half the number of bus bays ...making it nowhere near the largest in Europe! So perhaps when people realise that little fact, prestonians may finally shake off the "pride" factor of that frightful monstrosity once and for all!!!
It isn't the largest anymore anyway. In fact, I don't even think its in the top 5. Nonetheless... this proves that its size is ridiculous for a city the size of Preston.
If they are going to pedestrianise the western side, I hope they don't spend too much money on it. Seems pointless if its going to be demolished soon.

It will also prove that the proposed number of bays in the new station will be more than enough to meet the demands of bus services currently in operation. I don't think it's in our interests to spend alot of money pedestrianising the area though. And presumably that side will come into use again once phase one of tithebarn is underway, as i understand the holiday inn half of the bus station is set to be demolished first, while the other half will continue to function until it's replacement opens a year later?

^Correct :yes:

Perhaps these plans to spend money pedestrianising one side of the bus station are a sign that the new bus station, and the Tithebarn scheme are being set further into the future than we're being led to believe, otherwise spending so much on a measure that would last just a few months would be madness.

To be fair how much exactyly would it cost to pedestrianise that half of the bus station? Installation of barriers, ramps down from the concourse level. Hardly millions. Also if it proves that the bus station as is simply isnt needed then im all for them spending afew grand doing so.

I don't believe I have said that John Lewis was only for the well off.

What I did say (which is different in important respects), was that the people planning the Tithebarn development have not thought about those who currently use the city centre who are pensioners or families on benefits, or who rely on buses to travel, and certainly don't seem to care much about them.

Except, as anyone who has actually been in a John Lewis will know, they cater for all levels of income. In fact they even ran a press advert showing the ranges they offer for different levels of "affordability" I myself have bought items there for less than in more widespread mid-range retailers such as Next, Debenhams etc. (I wrote this before, RS never responded naturally)

Sorry, but you have repeatedly inferred a dislike of JL through *your* perception of it being a premium retailer, quite why this is different to sneering at poundshops is beyond me! More amusing is the fact that John Lewis's ownership model does match so many of your communist principles.

And Accura, et al, we have argued and produced facts on more than enough occasions to prove the adequacy of the bus station and the services provided. All these posts seem to conveniantly be invisible on Riversider's computer! :lol: I notice zero response from him to my post on the inadequacy of the car park as one of many examples. What sort of a city has a car park with lifts only on every other floor for God's sake?

To be fair how much exactyly would it cost to pedestrianise that half of the bus station? Installation of barriers, ramps down from the concourse level. Hardly millions. Also if it proves that the bus station as is simply isnt needed then im all for them spending afew grand doing so.

Sorry for making a seperate post, but the answer to "how much it costs" is too much given some carefully placed zebra crossings will solve the problem. And this pedestrianisation does nothing for the bus users in the Unicenter, for example.

^^ It would also do nothing for the swarms of Newman College users either

I do hate to be misquoted, and I'm sure I've never said John Lewis was only for the well off. You may be confusing remarks I've made about the Tithebarn scheme in general with remarks about John Lewis, when what I actually have said about John Lewis is that I will definitely be shopping there next time I need a handbag to match my shoes (I might even buy my Mum's next birthday present there).

JohnH and Accura have made many posts which assert the adequacy of the new bus station, I would dispute that you have managed to prove that it will be adequate, for present and future needs. Perhaps the proof of the pudding will be in the eating - eventually, though it will be a rather painful way to be proved right. The Newman college students CJ mentions will be among the few that will actually find the new bus station better situated, most other Preston people will be angry about the loss of our landmark bus station for years to come, the old saying is all too true: "you don't know what you've got till it's gone".

You may be confusing remarks I've made about the Tithebarn scheme in general with remarks about John Lewis
How can you make a judgement like that when only 2 tenants (both of which are reasonably affordable) have been confirmed? :?

It's a bit worrying if there are only 2 confirmed tenants Accura. What confidence can this give the developers to go ahead?

Considering they are the two anchor tenants, and the project is not even under construction yet, not bad at all! Most of Liverpool 1's tenants were not signed up until it was U/C. The anchor tenants are the most important when considering whether or not to proceed.

Actually there is 3, Cineworld have signed up as well havnt they?

This is the way that developments like this get built. John Lewis and M&S are anchors for the development. With them onboard it gets built and others follow later. Thus why they are called anchors. Its the was that schemes like this work. Liverpool One was exactly the same. Debehhams and John Lewis anchored, scheme built, other shops added later on. It was practically finished before the rest of the scheme was filled.

I think the pedestrianisation of the St. John's side of the bus station is a brilliant idea. I don't know whether Tithebarn will go ahead or not, but if it doesn't, then plan B could turn out to be pretty good (some might even say better, but whisper it quietly!).

The area in front of the bus station is big enough to build a wide pedestrianised street to give a good view of Preston's most distinctive building. Get a line of trees along there, maybe some public art and seating areas, and the area where the St. John's centre is now is easily big enough to build a new department store and other small shops without the need to lose any historic buildings. I know these aren't the current plans - but it shows what could be done without spending quite as much money or the need to knock down a large part of town.

Actually there is 3, Cineworld have signed up as well havnt they?
Sorry, I was specifically referring to retail tenants. But indeed, Cineworld are on board :)

The area in front of the bus station is big enough to build a wide pedestrianised street to give a good view of Preston's most distinctive building. Get a line of trees along there, maybe some public art and seating areas, and the area where the St. John's centre is now is easily big enough to build a new department store and other small shops without the need to lose any historic buildings. I know these aren't the current plans - but it shows what could be done without spending quite as much money or the need to knock down a large part of town.
Andy, I see where you're coming from, and it certainly isn't a bad idea. But even with massive refurbishment of the bus station, it still isn't sustainable in the long term. Its going to have to be replaced in the not too distant future, whether Tithebarn goes ahead or not, simply due to the structural

JohnH and Accura have made many posts which assert the adequacy of the new bus station, I would dispute that you have managed to prove that it will be adequate

Well, I for one took some time to research into current bus services, frequency and span of operation to indicate the level of service currently offered through utilising less than half of the current bus station capacity. You ignored the details included in these posts. We have also continuously refered to the importance of how bays are managed being more important than the physical number. You ignored all such comments. I have commented on how the proposed bus station can link with certain other types of transport, e.g. trams. You ignored it.

So, unlike you, we have always backed up arguments with facts and experience. Your arguments are based on sentiment, emotion and your total resentment and hatred of change.

Accura makes another good point, updating the bus station requires far more than just improving access. It needs complete gutting and refurbishment, appropriate rectification of structural issues, cutting new lift shafts so that all levels of the car parks are served, repainting the layout of the car park floors to meet modern standards, improving the lighting provision in the car park. I cannot concieve that this is cheaper than building a new bus station, though I do not have the data to back that up and no-one, despite requests, has offered any supporting argument.

Can I just mention another "anchor" in all this? The massive and much needed redevelopment of our market, one of the principal reasons for Preston's initial existance? In days gone by Preston was famed for it's traditional markets... if you are so pro-tradition and fighting for our identity and landmarks Riversider then surely the investment that Tithebarn will bring to our market is more important than a concrete monstrosity that is not fit for purpose?

Preston's £700m Tithebarn rebirth has been branded a throwback to the 1960s – by the government's own architecture advisers.
Developers behind the long-awaited scheme have been accused of looking to demolish the entire east end of the city centre and completely rebuild it.

The Commission for Architecture and the Built Environment (CABE) has supported the aims of the redevelopment and says the design team's understanding of the existing city centre is "impressive".

But, it urges changes in design, including looking again at saving the city's bus station, and recommends the current plans are thrown out by Preston Council.

Developers the Preston Tithebarn Partnership (PTP) have insisted they plan to maintain many historic buildings, including listed properties in Church Street.

The CABE report said: "This scheme needs as much thought about the way the new and old development is stitched together along its edges as in the centre itself.

"We remain concerned at the extent of the proposals, which brings back something of the approach of 1960s-style comprehensive redevelopment, rather than integrating buildings into a truly distinctive new future for Preston city centre."

It goes on to raise concerns about how Tithebarn may deepen the split in the city created by Ring Way.

The report said: "The scope of the development presents a welcome opportunity to heal the divisions created by the Ring Way and design for a post-Ring Way world.

"We are concerned that the masterplan could reinforce these divisions unless more care is given to how its buildings address it."

A PTP spokesman said CABE's views were "important" to the development and said they had consulted the group throughout the drawing up of their plans.

The planning committee will meet to vote on whether to pass proposals in the coming months.

The spokesman said: "In recognition of the significance of this major regeneration project, there have been many representations submitted.

"The council will consider CABE's comments along with other views in making a balanced decision regarding the future of Preston city centre."

Aidan Turner-Bishop, chairman of Preston and South Ribble Civic Society, said that the plans could yet be "tweaked" to keep in buildings like The Black A Moor Head and The Tithebarn pubs, which are currently due to go as part of the scheme.

He said: "It works in other city centres – just look at Liverpool or Manchester. It is crazy to just flatten the whole side of the city centre.

"Whatever Tithebarn brings will be with us for the next 100 years, so it has to be right."

Aidan Turner-Bishop, chairman of Preston and South Ribble Civic Society, said that the plans could yet be "tweaked" to keep in buildings like The Black A Moor Head and The Tithebarn pubs, which are currently due to go as part of the scheme.

He said: "It works in other city centres – just look at Liverpool or Manchester. It is crazy to just flatten the whole side of the city centre.
I assume he is referring to the Shambles in Manchester. The difference is between those and the pubs in Tithebarn is that the shambles are actually beautiful buildings.

I assume he is referring to the Shambles in Manchester. The difference is between those and the pubs in Tithebarn is that the shambles are actually beautiful buildings.

Well, the two pubs are beautiful buildings. Shambles Square, their former location, was dire.

The most telling sentence in the LEP's latest bus station article (http://www.lep.co.uk/travel/Grosvenor-contributes-to-the-new.5094626.jp) is this: "it may be possible to reduce the cost of the project by "looking at the specifications", a Town Hall source said" - they are determined to downgrade, denigrate and avoid spending a single penny more than they can get away with on public transport, then they wonder why Preston's roads are gridlocked.

Lets hope the new bus station is built to a better standard than Skipton's brand new excuse for a bus station, which seems to have been built with a similar intent to 'look at the specifications' in order to save every penny possible, with alarming consequences:

http://www.cravenherald.co.uk/news/4157352..._station_users/ (http://www.cravenherald.co.uk/news/4157352.Fire_alarm_trapped_us_in__say_bus_station_users/)

Preston is not the only place having problems with greedy developers grabbing bus station land - the situation in Colchester is even worse: http://www.gazette-news.co.uk/news/2124419...ur_bus_station/ (http://www.gazette-news.co.uk/news/2124419.colchester_wheres_our_bus_station/)

and even the wording of this article about Sudbury's bus station is uncannily similar to what has happened in Preston: http://www.suffolkfreepress.co.uk/news/Sud...lace.3196899.jp (http://www.suffolkfreepress.co.uk/news/Sudbury--Cash-in-place.3196899.jp) I wonder whether there is a standard press release developers send out every time they see a juicy piece of bus station land?

Building a new bus station is a chance to develop an integrated transport strategy - but Preston's new bus station seems destined to end up like the one in Leeds: http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Transport_in_Leeds

The city's new bus station has become a controversy in the city. One of the main reasons is its location (approximately one mile from the railway station). The distance from the railway station is not the only problem with its location. For someone unfarmiliar with the centre of Leeds it would prove very difficult to find (situated behind the Kirkgate Markets). Not only this but the size of the main bus station is also inadequate. Many First Buses do not use the station, only external buses and National ExpressNational Express
*Blackpool*Bradford Interchange*Brighton*Bristol*Cambridge*Canterbury*Cardiff*Cheltenham Spa...
coaches use the station. For a city the size of Leeds a 26 stand bus station is far too small. Hence Eastgate, The Headrow, Park Row, Boar Lane, Vicar Lane, Albion Street and Cookridge Street are lined with bus stops. There are three smaller bus stations in the city centre, one on Vicar Lane, one to the rear of the Leeds Shopping Plaza on Boar Lane and one outside the main entrance to the railway station for services linking the railway station with the rest of the city's public transport. The lack of integration in Leeds' public transport system is a common criticism.

Are we going to end up with the same kind of chaos in Preston, thanks to the greed of the developers, and the incompetence of our planners? There's still time to put things right...

In my mind, all you have to do is look at Liverpool One to see the kind of finish we can expect with the Tithebarn Project. Grosvenor/Lend Lease are not going to want a shabby finish to such an expensive scheme. Even if they are trying to reduce costs, so what? It's better they titrate the size of the project to current demand. And if extra office space is needed in the future, a CBD is in the works anyway which will help create a rounder, more balanced city centre.

They also got rid of a bus station in Liverpool and built a new one. Sound familiar. The new one is lovely as well :)

There's still time to put things right...

And what (for the nth time) would you propose? Somehow I suspect if Tithebarn was left to you, we'd end up with nothing but a 1000 bay bus station with allowances for rickshaws, maglevs, flying carpets, teleportation booths and all sorts of other sensible options. :ohno:

By the way, at least I can post views opposing your own here. It is interesting how quickly any posts that oppose Riversider's (or River's) view on the LEP message boards magically and swiftly disappear, he really has got the censorship wallahs in his pocket there.

None of those examples are even true bus stations. They are however examples of what we would get if Grosvenor were greedy developers as you like it. Lots of bus stops.

Do you think maybe Leeds would like us to ship them our 80 bay bus station?

Hi Jonh, at least your suggestions have a little bit of imagination in them, and leave room for what might emerge in the future. If we do have to have a new bus station, we should use the opportunity to solve a lot of Preston's transport problems, and build in some capacity for potential future developments in public transportation and green transport generally, there are some very good ideas out there, (http://www.bettertransport.org.uk/)which we should be paying attention to. Unfortunately, the proposed station is a substantial downgrade of our current capacity and lacks any sense of future-proofing or imagination. Preston-Guy calls this 'Titration', what I want to know is: who is doing the ration-ing?

I can assure you I'm not responsible for the foul practice of censoring anybodys comments on the LEP website, I've suffered from it myself, and it can be irritating - the trick is to 'just keep rolling along'.

Your suspicions (posted on the LEP site) that I give money to the LEP are however well-grounded. I have to admit that I am a regular donor to their coffers - sometimes as much as 42p a day!

Hi Jonh, at least your suggestions have a little bit of imagination in them, and leave room for what might emerge in the future. If we do have to have a new bus station, we should use the opportunity to solve a lot of Preston's transport problems, and build in some capacity for potential future developments in public transportation and green transport generally, there are some very good ideas out there, (http://www.bettertransport.org.uk/)which we should be paying attention to. Unfortunately, the proposed station is a substantial downgrade of our current capacity and lacks any sense of future-proofing or imagination. Preston-Guy calls this 'Titration', what I want to know is: who is doing the ration-ing?

Planning for the future is all very well, but you have to look at the current indicators to draw some kind of conclusion on where to go with it.
Lets take a look at our current indicators...

- We have an 80-bay bus station
- It was up until recently used at less than half of its capacity, even with two bus companies running the same routes
- It is due to have 50% of its operation shut down and consolidated into one side

Go figure.

And that link you posted... I had a read. Their philosophy is a load of unrealistic nonsense. Where exactly are they allowing for improvements to transport when they seem to spend most of their time campaigning against proposed transport improvements?!

At Prestonlancs, I've pointed the direction we need to go, to meet the challenges of climate change, peak oil and demographic trends: http://www.prestonlancs.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=2486&pid=29637&st=40&#entry29637
We need someone in Preston with some real vision - we always get palmed off.

I can assure you I'm not responsible for the foul practice of censoring anybodys comments on the LEP website, I've suffered from it myself, and it can be irritating - the trick is to 'just keep rolling along'.

You are right, I do humbly apologise for those. And for getting one of your posts deleted!! But I was just testing the system, there was no reason for my post to be deleted or for yours, but nonetheless they did! I didn't even give a good reason, so it proves that forum is a bit of a shambles.

Going back to this bus station marlarky, may I ask you one question. You obviously wish to retain the bus station. Why does Preston need a bus station bigger than anywhere else in the country? Now that the bus station (as is) is going to get cut to 40 spaces (which worries me), how can two (?) less spaces be a downgrade? Trams/taxis/rickshaws/sedan chairs/bikes/land trains can integrate with the new bus station by stopping in the street outside.

Another though for the wider forum now - is the position of the new bus station really as bad as we think? The though came to me today that is might be a good thing. Think of it, rail passengers arrive at one end of Fishergate and filter through town that way providing footfall past the Fishergate Centre and shops at that end, bus passengers do the same from the opposite end. Ensure that there is a suitable link between the two, a dedicated bus, or a tram, or a land train that allows suitable capacity for buggyes/wheelchairs/luggae etc and in fact do you not have a transport solution that serves the town well? Just a thought!

One thing they do need to address is, when trains are cancelled and coach replacements are put on, that the coaches are at the side of the station, lol..

The last time it happened, there were so many people going to the top of the street and asking 'where do you get the coaches from' and oblivious locals would say 'up there at the bus station' and they'd toddle on down the high street.

Issues like that could do with being addressed and well, if they were closer..could stop the problem (a minor one, mind..but still)

Was wondering if anyone could help me. Did the bus station appear in any journals or is there anywhere you can get detailed plans of the building. Doing a coursework on the structure of a building and thought it could be interesting to do.

I've just had a gander on Emerald and Ebscohost using my Athens login... not much by the looks of it. Only a few mentions in articles specifically on building materials.

The fact that nobody has their designs and renders on their websites, suggests to me that people don't feel particularly proud of the new bus station as a piece of design. Perhaps they are frightened of their work being compared with what it is replacing.

The fact that nobody has their designs and renders on their websites, suggests to me that people don't feel particularly proud of the new bus station as a piece of design. Perhaps they are frightened of their work being compared with what it is replacing.

Or that the designs are not finished. More likely I'd say.

As for any comparisons, I doubt they'll have any fear.

Just a little bit of an update, the new multi-storey at the train station is looking pretty good (as far as car parks go anyway...). It looks like they are creating a new entrance to the station as well... nice big glass frontage. Not bad at all! :)

Also, did anyone see the article about the police station being demolished in the LEP the other day? The actual station closed last weekend. I wonder what will replace that?

At the moment i would think it will probably end up as a surface car park. I do think it is a suitable area for a tall, being on the Ringroad. Would rather it stay vacant till the economy recovers opposed to getting something which doesnt maximise the sites potential.

Also was in Preston last weekend and went past Moor Heights, the new block on the old Einsteins Theory site. Was quite impressed. Think its turned out much better than the renders suggested. Has a certain Deco quality about it. Then again that might just be because of the white and curves :) Just a shame that it sits on the same street as that new pile of tall shite :(

I hear in the news that a load more Unitary Authorities from Cornwall to Northumberland came in to existance today. All Wales, Scotland and N. Ireland is on the unitary system, and with the metropolitan authorities in addition to places like Blackpool and Blackburn in England, twin authority places like the rump of LCC, Yorkshire and Kent are now the exception rather than the rule. How much longer can LCC resist the inevitable? Ring the changes!

Fingers crossed LCC take a hike sometime soon!

Yay!!!

Yeh, fuck off LCC ;)

Funny that it's the unitary authorities, Blackpool and Blackburn, that are kicking up the stink about Tithebarn at the moment, while LCC keeps out of the fray.

More unitary authorities will encourage our local politicians to fight like dogs over scraps, rather than working together for the common interest.

People in South Ribble will resist to the last any attempt to foist them into a 'Greater Preston', they can see how Preston is run, and they really don't like it.

Funny that it's the unitary authorities, Blackpool and Blackburn, that are kicking up the stink about Tithebarn at the moment, while LCC keeps out of the fray.
And will LCC fight our corner? Like hell they will. They seem to do nothing except hold Preston back.

People in South Ribble will resist to the last any attempt to foist them into a 'Greater Preston', they can see how Preston is run, and they really don't like it.
Really? Maybe you should try actually living in South Ribble and see how inept our council is before making any judgements. If you live in Leyland, living under SRBC is great. Anywhere else and you don't really seem to matter.

SRBC have messed up in a big way in the Iceland banking collapse, and the Tories certainly don't seem to have kept any of their election promises (like stopping any further house building, and abolishing car parking charges).

Whether this makes South Ribblers any warmer towards PCC and it's disregard for historic areas or the greenbelt, and it's long disastrous history of damaging development decisions remains to be seen.

If you live in Leyland, living under SRBC is great.

Is it? News to me...

Is it? News to me...

Perhaps a slight exagurration! Leyland does get favoured though by the council, with greater spending than the rest of the borough, especially on regeneration. The council seem to have a larger visible presence there than the rest of the borough.

The council seem to have a larger visible presence there than the rest of the borough.

Er, well it *is* based there.

(Christ, I am defending Leyland. Has it really come to this... :ohno: )

Its okay... you've still got the 'South Ribble Museum and Exhibition Centre' :lol:

If I had to choose between living in Leyland, and living in Chorley, it would be Chorley every time. All there is in Leyland (apart from Worden Park), is about 7 different superstores - the place has been devastated by the developers.

Here's how ex-John Lewis employees get treated: http://www.prestonlancs.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=2549

Carlisle MP Eric Martlew planned to show his support at the protest later today.

He said: “In all my years as a Member of Parliament, I’ve never met staff who were so committed and felt so betrayed by a company they believed they were co-owners of. We’ve got to shame John Lewis into carrying out its obligations

If I had to choose between living in Leyland, and living in Chorley, it would be Chorley every time. All there is in Leyland (apart from Worden Park), is about 7 different superstores - the place has been devastated by the developers.
Oh and pray tell what Chorley has that elevates it over Leyland on those grounds? :ohno: Astley Hall is about the only thing I can think of, otherwise, all I can think of is a town centre with a bunch of retail parks round the edges. I can only assume the above quote is a cheap shot rather than anything of value.

Whilst we are on the subject of Riversider talking total complete crap, can we please put something to bed.

The new site of the bus station in Preston is no further than the current. I have just played around with Google Maps and from the centre of The Mall, I put the location of the new bus station at 0.4 miles and the nearest I can get to the centre of the bus station is approx 0.5 miles. I have however, attempted to base this argument on facts and research, therefore fully Riversider to totally ignore it and continue spouting retarded nonsense about "downgraded" bus station further away yada yada waffle waffle...

But it is further away from the parts of Preston people want to go - especially the market, and it's down a hill as well.

You can't deny it's a downgrade, it has much less capacity and is a cheap substitute for a decent bus station.

Actually Jonh has been a little bit arbitrary choosing the Mall as his 'centre of Preston'. It shows he thinks the corporate retail conglomerates are the most important part of Preston's centre.

He could just as easily have chosen Preston market as 'the centre' we are a historic market town after all, but 1, market traders aren't part of a big conglomerate, and 2. the market is nearer the current bus station than the proposed one, so it wouldn't suit his argument.

There are other 'centres' of Preston too - the County Court, our centre of justice, the library, our centre of knowledge (both nearer to the current bus station too!).

The closest I can find to a 'legal' definition of the city centre, would be the Town Hall, our centre of local government, this is where all the house numbering starts from. Again this is nearer to the current bus station.

When I say the proposed bus station is further away from each of these centres, in what way am I telling lies?

I'd like Jonh to withdraw the 'lie' remark he made about me on the recent LEP article, and to stop twisting geography to suit his own arguments.

The new bus station is closer to the main retail centre of Preston (inc The Mall) which is where most people want to go. It is also quicker to get to the train station.

Libraries are hardly the big money earners of a city centre though are they? You don't get thousands of bookworms scuttling across town to the bus stop with their backpacks full of must-reads. Surely the most sensible decision is to make any transport infrastrucutre shopper-friendly because it is that which will decide whether a visitor comes back again.

It might be shallow, generic and very unfavourable to allll the many other wonderful things the city offers but at the end of the day, thats life.

We now know the priorities of this town: shopping trumps knowledge, justice, democracy and community, the Mall trumps our library, our courts, our Town Hall and our Market.

(No withdrawal of the 'lies' remark yet I see - it's always been my policy to assume good faith by all participants in a debate, whether or not I agree with them, I always try to assume that they are telling the truth as they see it, and genuinely have good intentions.)

That is some sturdy bubble you're in really, aint it?

I'd say those who confine their outlook on life merely to shopping are the ones living in a bubble, I can shop with the best, but find many other aspects of life just as fulfilling.

Broaden your outlooks a little. There are some things you can't buy in Top Shop.

A broad outlook is all well and good, except what is needed is an economical boost, and more than ever at the moment - jobs! Its fine to say people should visit a city for the sake of borrowing a book, but there's only so many librarians you can employ in one city, I'm sure you'd agree.

Hundreds, if not thousands of new jobs, ranging in skill level for local people, for a small city with such a large student population and their disposable incomes - is common sense really. Only after that foundation can you stand a chance of retaining some of those graduates to further strengthen the place. Hell, you might get the odd exhibition space after that.

Now, call me narrow-minded and naive.. I don't mind that. But I'd imagine at the moment more people are needing to fulfill their bank accounts before they start thinking of acknowledging their artistic whims.

Real jobs making real things is a sounder economic base than low paid jobs in retail.

And many people are using the credit crunch as an opportunity to make exactly the decisions you deride - to spend less time in the rat race, and more time doing useful, interesting or spiritually valuable things - others have had this 'opportunity' cruelly thrust upon them, by politicians who believed that a service based economy was a panacea for all ills.

Real jobs making real things is a sounder economic base than low paid jobs in retail.
Your generalising. Not all industry is as glamorous as BAE or Leyland Trucks. I'm sure there is very little that is rewarding in sitting on a production line screwing lids onto toothpaste tubes. Equally, not all retail jobs are low paid.

There are some things you can't buy in Top Shop

I'd be concerned if you had bought anything from Topshop! Topman is upstairs!

Actually Jonh has been a little bit arbitrary choosing the Mall as his 'centre of Preston'. It shows he thinks the corporate retail conglomerates are the most important part of Preston's centre.

Oh dear....

The centre of The Mall is simply a realistic centre point of Preston. Especially if I have caught the bus into town, popped into the library to take those books back and get some more, checked out the new exhibition in the Harris, wandered across to PAD, strolled down Fishergate to the the deli down Winckley Street, popped into Smiths to buy a magazine and then after my coffee in Costa in The Mall, I have decided to head for home.

So, rather than being "arbitary" I have put some thought into the appropriate spot to use as reference by the presumption that people going into Preston will be doing more than one thing and may end up in a particular central spot. And I will not withdraw the "lies" claim, because it still stands. In fact if I cannot prove the bus station sites are further away by using The Mall as a centre point, then you cannot possibly make any such claims yourself because ANY point in Preston can be contested, so well done. Undone your own argument, well done!

And as for:

Real jobs making real things is a sounder economic base than low paid jobs in retail.


That is the single most stupid thing you have ever written. And BOY is there competition for that!

Broaden your outlooks a little.

I did thanks. I spent barely ten percent of the Easter weekend in shops, the rest of the time was spent with my wife and daughter doing things with them. Though, it is worth noticing the following:

Saturday am: Worden Park, Leyland. Car Parking - Free (Would normally walk, but pushed for time and had a new scooter to transport as well as other bits and bobs) My daughter scootered around whilst we enjoyed the weather and the lovely park.

Saturday pm: Southport. Parking - £2.20 (although could have parked for free at the P&R). Walked along the prom and the pier, had a drink at a nearby pub, walked back along prom.

Sunday all day: Lytham. Parking - Free, on street. Walked to St Annes after a picnic in Lowther Gardens.

Easter Monday: Preston Parking - £3.70 at Avenham. Parking charges now in force at the bus station, despite the Guildhall Walkway being closed and being more expensive than Avenham, hence we ended up in the latter. Went to the Egg Rolling - whilst not as over-hyped as the Riversway festival, still made us thing "and this is a big event for Preston???" Oh dear. Picnic in Winckley Square - I do look forward to that being refurbished, it's a mess now. A quick visit to some shops to get stuff we needed to get, then coffee in Costa Coffee before going home.


Sadly, the introduction of Sunday/Bank Holiday charges at the Bus Station does in fact reduce our likely future visits to Preston, given that they are quite extortionate given that the Harris is closed on Sundays, as is the tourist info centre (City? Yeah, right) and that there are other, more fulfilling places nearby that we can enjoy ourselves (without needing shops thank you).

Oh dear....


Sadly, the introduction of Sunday/Bank Holiday charges at the Bus Station does in fact reduce our likely future visits to Preston, given that they are quite extortionate

Makes you wonder whether this is part of a strategy...

Makes you wonder whether this is part of a strategy...
At risk of agreeing with you on something :) it's a very stupid one.

It might cost more in fuel to drive to Southport say, but if you know that the parking will cost say £1 for P&R or £2.20 along the prom, then psychology will kick in and tell you it's cheaper to go there.

Went past the Fox Street car park the other day. There was a portocabin on there. Does this mean we can expect the hotel to be started soon :D
As far as individual Preston buildings go this is my fave, closely followed by the John Lewis store.

I am not sure, updated plans were recently submitted and the decision is still pending according to PCC's website. But who knows. It's only about 7 or 8 years overdue...

I'm not as excited by the Fox Street plans anymore. Although they are now taller, the inclusion of student accommodation generally means a worse design. I hope I'm proven wrong though.

Looks like a redevelopment of Oyston Mill is back on the cards according to todays LEP :)

did we see a revised or new render for Fox street since its use was changed? I can't remember :|

No. I'm going to try and make it into the planning office tomorrow to have a peek.

Hopefully as far as student accomodation goes we wont see anymore mistakes along the same lines as the new Moor Lane Halls.

Anyone have any pictures of what was proposed for the Oyston Mill site

There were never any renders released, but the proposal was 12-storeys tall.

Went to Lancastria House today to see the Planning Appliaction for a totally uninspiring 3,000 Sq Ft office development at the top of East Cliff Road this morning. I can make a few comments on the lacklustre design, but the tougher task will be to tell my neighbours at our meeting on Saturday morning why there are absolutely no grounds on which the Planners can recommend refusal.

Oh well, at least North West Today on TV tonight could see that the official £600m loss by Grosvenor this year does not stymie the Tithebarn -I assumed RS would be all over that report like a rash by now!

I saw the report Tark, but could see no need to comment. Events seem to be confirming my warnings, and I actually feel pretty sad about it, as it is a big setback for Preston as a whole. If things do go as wrong as they obviously could, big questions will need to be asked about why such a risky 'all or nothing' strategy was followed, though some of those responsible are already retiring.

I'm expecting more delay rather than total failure - from the developer's point of view, dragging things out for much greater lengths of time at least means a competitor cannot move in and compete with L1, which has lost more than enough money already (over 300m in the last few years wiped off its value).

Fair reply RS - the report did say that Grosvenor might well welcome a bit more delay at this time.
I'm not sure it's right to say Grosvenor have "lost" £300m on L1 already, like it's money they can't get back from the project, even in the medium term. Is it not more the case that say, 18 months ago the book value of all the properties in the project was £1bn, whereas today it's £700m? With the G20 concord the other week, the major economies of the world are co-operating with each other to mitigate the depth and length of this global recession, something which hasn't really happened before - previously each country acted in what it saw as its own self interest, which it actually was not when viewed with the benefit of hindsight.
Grosvenor have a policy of always looking towards the long term and I for one would not be surprised if the book value of L1 was not back at 1bn by say 2013. Obviously, their income/profits on rent etc will have been a lot less than they projected in 2007 but with their vast portfolio, they can withstand it. If the Tithebarn was being done by Peel Holdings for example, I agree that it would all have gone tits-up by now.

Ah - I see you've been editing your post as I've been typing my reply! I'll re-read more closely!
Yep - I think it was the bit in brackets at the end that has been changed, which is similar to what I've put in this post.

If Peel Holdings had been doing Tithebarn, we would most likely be enjoying the qualities of some naff retail park, rather than getting a quality regeneration project.

^^ We could have ended up with a mini trafford centre, complete with naff themed areas, naff statues and general naff naffness. Tithebarn could be much much worse.

You're right about the outlook of Grosvenor Tark. Traditionally they've preferred to think in centuries rather than decades. They've made big promises to Preston, and I'm sure they don't wish to get a reputation for breaking their word either - even if it is implied promises rather than hard contractual ones. Delay is more likely than total withdrawal, but it's delay that could last for years on end, 'standing still' is not an option, and will cause Preston to continue to go backwards as planners' blight bites even deeper than it has already.

CJ, we've been living in a postmodern culture, where naffness, cheesiness and general ironic smirking are seen as positive attributes, even in architecture. Let's hope the new puritanism that accompanies the recession refocusses architects and developers onto long term quality, rather than the usual short term tacky chrome and plate glass shoe boxes.

Just a pity they couldn't do something a little less intensive for now, such as redo the outdoor markets.. Move the current stalls to outside the Harris Museum, creating a vibrant little square.. and give a well-deserved spruce up to the markets, get that immediate area sorted which would do benefits to the city whilst hanging about for the big guys to get going.

What is this new puritanism you talk about. Often Architects do have the vision to create great architecture, however one thing constantly gets in the way. Money. I cant see how a recession will change this, if anything it will make it work. A case of "sod the design, we need to make as much money as possible" Case point will be to see how the Fox Street hotel shapes out now the recession has hit. Personally i wish when buildings went into planning that turd like the Moor Lane halls was thrown out for the simple fact that it looks rubbish.


Completely agree ferge. However seen as the two B's are objecting to Tithebarn doesnt that put the whole area on ice?

What is this new puritanism you talk about?

It's been in the air for a while, and I'm surprised you haven't heard of it.

To bring you up to date with developments in design and architecture, here are some articles on what some are calling the New Puritanism:

http://www.blueprintmagazine.co.uk/index.php/design/the-subject/
http://www.hughpearman.com/2009/01.html
http://www.leaderpost.com/story_print.html?id=1223057&sponsor=
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/Page/document/v5/content/subscribe?user_URL=http://www.theglobeandmail.com%2Fservlet%2Fstory%2FLAC.20090327.REMAYS27%2FREStory%2FRealEstate%2Fhome%2F%3Fquery%3D&ord=34396217&brand=theglobeandmail&force_login=true
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/04/weekinreview/04cannell.html?_r=1

Of course I was talking about the New Puritanism back in October 2008, well before any of these articles were published: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=27094582#post27094582

Thats the benefit of having your ear to the architectural ground, rather than being stuck back in the failed philosophies of the '80s, like Preston City Council and its' Vision Board.

Grab the Yarn, there's an iconic building to be made!!!! :|

Traditionally they've preferred to think in centuries rather than decades.

Surely they should be? Who wants an urban area, including residences, that needs rebuilding in a few decades?

long term quality, rather than the usual short term tacky chrome and plate glass shoe boxes.

said it before, will say it again, Liverpool 1 is well built from good quality materials.

I don't think you've fully understood what I'm trying to say Jonh, you're trying to fit the words I've said into what you think my message is, rather than reading what they actually say.

I'm explaining why I think Grosvenor will NOT pull out of the Tithebarn development.

Having a long term view, is definitely preferable to the approach taken by most companies, who wish to see returns on their money in ever-shortening periods of time, leading to all kinds of bad investment in short term profit rather than long term strength - one of the tendencies that led to the current economic disaster.

This long term view means Grosvenor may be willing to take a heavy short term hit, if it means they can sit pretty in Preston for the next couple of centuries. However they have just taken a pretty big hit in L1, so they may need a little while to recover their financial composure.

Their long term view also means they have no reason to rush.

While we in Preston need those much vaunted construction and retail jobs now, what incentive does the developer have to invest now, when the recession could last 3 or 4 years, and economic conditions may never return to the overheated madness of the last decade?

This is why I'm expecting long delays, rather than total cancellation.

In many ways, long delays is worse for Preston than an outright cancellation, as the latter would give others a chance to come in and repair some of the damage done by a decade of stagnation, while we waited and waited and waited for Tithebarn, the former would mean even more years of planning blight, waiting for 'jam tomorrow' as we have for the last decade.

I'm explaining why I think Grosvenor will NOT pull out of the Tithebarn development.

Fair enough. However, I do not share your optimism. I am increasingly of the opinion that Tithebarn will get cancelled, the more the idiots in Blackpool and Blackburn expend more effort fighting it than considering their own plans, the more opposition starts building in Preston, the more emotive demands to "save the bus station" despite it being oversized and unfit for purpose. Etc. etc.

Indeed. All these events combined could have disasterous consequences for Preston and its status. The next few years will be a big turning point for Preston, Blackpool, and Blackburn. Blackburn has spent the past 5 years making big improvements to its public transport and roads. Blackpool has spent the past 2 years upgrading its tramway, with its fleet due to be replaced over the next few months, as well as further expanding its airport.

Preston? Well, as much as people whinge about it, we have the university. Thats one of the few things keeping our city centre going. But with Blackpool due to get one over the next few years, we are even at risk of losing that.

Conclusion? In ten years time, Preston will no longer be the principle city in Lancashire. And as much as people will complain about it then, it will be the short sightedness and the stubbornness of the people to blame.

Now no doubt at this point, Riversider is coming up with some screaming argument about how the council is to blame. So lets have a look at the facts:

Blackburn and Blackpool have made/are making massive upgrades to their transport systems. Preston hasn't isn't. So it must be the council's fault yes? Wrong. Unlike Bburn and Bpool we are not a unitary authority so LCC retains all control over PT investment in Preston. Preston had the opportunity to become a unitary authority with South Ribble, but once again, people couldn't see past their own pride and opposed it. So once again we have gained absolutely fuck all.

Bus station. Why in God's name are people campaigning to save this thing? Because its the largest bus station in the UK? Great. Now lets look at the counter argument:
- Its too big
- Its used at less than half its capacity
- Its retail takeup is now also less than half
- Its a safety hazard
- Its a psychological barrier between one side of town and another
- Its not where people want it to be, meaning people just get off at stops in town
- People don't want to use the access points, instead putting their lives at risk
- Its run down beyond belief

Lets face it, the whole original concept of it was a failure. Pretty much everything... not just its location and access, but its relationship with the above car park and the long since abandoned taxi rank. Its a complete utter waste of space. And if that were not enough....

ITS REACHING THE END OF ITS LIFESPAN ANYWAY!!!!!!!!!

But once again, people failing to see past their pride want to waste hundreds of millions of public money preserving the damned thing.

i predict Riversiders response will contain...

Planning Blight
Development eggs on one basket
Downgrading our public transport
and maybe even social cleansing

:)

i predict Riversiders response will contain...

Planning Blight
Development eggs on one basket
Downgrading our public transport
and maybe even social cleansing

:)

Thanks CJ, saved me a lot of time.

As Accura points out, other authorities took advantage of the boom to invest heavily in their infrastructure. Preston didn't, because they were under instruction from the developers to wait for Tithebarn to sort everything out for them. Now the recession/depression is here...

Jonh says he thinks I am being optimistic in my prediction that Grosvenor will not pull out of Preston. In many ways it would be kinder if they did pull out, allowing Preston to start rebuilding again, after all those years of waiting, if they don't pull out, Tithebarn will keep getting delayed, over and over again to some indefinite point in the future, causing stagnation and decay that will make the existing planning blight look mild.

As Accura points out, other authorities took advantage of the boom to invest heavily in their infrastructure. Preston didn't, because they were under instruction from the developers to wait for Tithebarn to sort everything out for them. Now the recession/depression is here...

The reason Preston didn't invest in its infrastructure is because it is not in a solid position to do so due to the fact we are not a unitary authority, something you opposed!

Btw, there was a bit of good news about Ask's Church Place in the LEP yesterday. It seems they plan to start construction at the same time as the new bus station and it should be finished before Tithebarn.

I would have thought it would take longer as there is the relocation of people and demolition involved?

http://www.lep.co.uk/businessnews/New-Vision-Board-revealed.5233716.jp

Maybe not household names, but interesting nevertheless.

It appears UcLan are building a new £16million Sports Facility, on the site of their current Marsh building. Good to see they are designing more modern buildings as opposed to the likes of the Darwin building. :)

http://editorial.jpress.co.uk/web/Upload/PRES//TH1_65200924Sports%20Centre(2).jpg

That looks amazing! I live in Leighton Hall (well... for another month or so anyway) and noticed all the ground tests they had been doing. I'd never imagined that it would be this good! With regards to Darwin Building, although its not the best architecturally, it is a fantastic facility inside. I've spent many an hour in its open access IT room, much better than the library. Great news about this though. Hopefully this is the start of UCLan beginning to replace some of its older buildings.

Make me feel old, I was living in halls when they were STARTING Leighton and I'm still at Uni now, haha! Darwin is a good building inside, but I much prefered Brook (which went up at the same time)..never been in there though (will have been by tomorrow, my final ever ever exam at Uclan, haha :|) ..

But yes, a step in the right direction.. If only there was some way of creating a better space amongst these buildings. Harrington and Greenbank/Whitendale halls have a bit more of a lively feel to them as opossed to the rear of Foster, Marsh and Darwin. This new faculty along with the redevelopment of Harris for the Architects is going to do wonders for UcLan.

http://editorial.jpress.co.uk/web/Upload/PRES//TH1_18520099JB%20Firth%202.JPG

The latest phase in a multi-million pound revamp of a Lancashire university has been unveiled.
The University of Central Lancashire has revealed plans for a £12.5m upgrade of its forensic and pharmaceutical sciences facility, just days after announcing a £16m new sports centre at its Marsh Lane site in Preston.


http://www.lep.co.uk/news/University-unveils-125m-vision-for.5278111.jp

Been quiet on here for a good few days but a great way to bump it up.. two new faculties, blimey.

Been quiet on here for a good few days but a great way to bump it up.. two new faculties, blimey.

we expected things to slow down considerably throughout the downturn, its not actually been as bad as id expected so far. Things are showing signs of picking up again, so hopefully things will here too :)

Its good to see tha UCLan are continuing building decent buildings. I did find it quite amusing in that article the person who complains about it not fitting in. Nutter!

Its usually more the argument of 'Oh it won't happen, just like the Tithebarn' or 'Well, why bother with building anything because the Tithebarn never happened' :|

..and so Uclan rapidly grows and devours every square inch of Preston.. :|

I want to congratulate the planners at Preston City Council for listening to the people of Carlisle St, and to all the people who fought to keep the Warehouse: http://www.lep.co.uk/news/Residents-happy-after-demolition-plans.5285582.jp

Listening to people works - it makes plans better, and helps things happen quicker.

If only you'd learned to listen a little earlier...

The Warehouse and Carlisle St were not in the original Tithebarn plans and only began to be looked at as options as the LCC insisted on locating the new bus station in the wrong place. They were never more than Option Z, and in the current financial climate, any scaling down of the scheme can be spun as a good news story for the residents. This is more a case of economical pragmatism than listening to the residents, I'm afraid RS.

Thanks for that explanation Tark, I have to admit I was very surprised to see that the council had listened to ordinary people for once, and I was quite pleased, I was beginning to think things were changing a little. Your clarification of what was really going on puts me back at the disillusioned end of the spectrum!

The 'New Puritanism' I mentioned pertaining to architecture is having an impact in politics too, in the form of the MP's expenses scandal.

The public are rightly disgusted at the greedy sybaritic and corrupt behaviour of most of our MPs, and are looking to replace most of them with people who have a much more ascetic approach.

I'm off to my cousin's sister-in-law's wedding this w/e in Buckinghamshire. It's a Sikh do so there's countless guests - which is why I'm invited! I intend to use a bit of the spare time between the various Scotch-laiden events looking up what sybaritic and ascetic mean.

But back on topic - who else thinks Warner's are doing a shithole job on the Victoria Buildings opposite the Fishergate Centre?

Are they the ones on the corner with new black signage? I'd agree that they're a botch of a 'restoration' if there ever was, still... a proud 'gateway' to the city indeed.

I dont know why they didnt just demolish them and start again. They obviously were nicer in the past as you could see from the photos on the hoardings. At some point someone wrecked them. It would really be a great site for a landmark building. Just shows the type of quality were going to get from any expansion of Fishergate.

What happened to the plans from afew years back to demolish the small buildings on Corporation Street, you know, the porn shops, the take away, the fridge place.

But back on topic - who else thinks Warner's are doing a shithole job on the Victoria Buildings opposite the Fishergate Centre?

Me. Looks like they are using cheap plywood for the wood frontages.

I'm disappointed too, they look like they will quickly start to rot. Just goes to show you should never trust a developer and their promises.

I really wish you would stop making it seem like all developers are the same. Warner have shown that they dont care about quality they care about cost. So if FG2 ever goes ahead dont expect anything special. Infact expect the cheapest end result possible.

Grosvenor on the other hand have shown the they invest in quality and arent in it just to make a quick buck.

No he's right, developers are all as bad as each other.. they shouldn't be allowed to keep spending taxpayer's money, I blame the council for coming up with these ideas.



......:|

Grosvenor certainly aren't in it to make a 'quick buck'. Whenever it eventually comes, it will be one of the slowest bucks ever...

I blame the council for coming up with these ideas.


Nah, I blame the council for everything. Saves me being responsible for anything!

Nah, I blame the council for everything.

Which one?
Once again, the LEP didn't record my vote in their review.
As ever, I was pleased that I'm lucky enough to live where I live in the world and was glad to pop along to my Polling Station the other Thursday to exercise my right to vote. I voted in the Euros and deliberately spoilt my paper in the County Council election, writing across the boxes "I WANT A UNITARY AUTHORITY" - or effectively voting; None Of The Above. But the number of spoilt papers was not recorded in the LEP's results - and I know I wasn't the only one.

Which one?

I was being sarcastic!

I voted in the Euros and deliberately spoilt my paper in the County Council election, writing across the boxes "I WANT A UNITARY AUTHORITY" - or effectively voting; None Of The Above. But the number of spoilt papers was not recorded in the LEP's results - and I know I wasn't the only one.

Sorry, but what a silly thing to do. You may as well not bothered turning up. I did vote for a party, it was not really the party I wanted to vote for, but I wanted a) to protest vote against Labour and b) register a vote that would count against the likes of the BNP and c) not vote Lib Dem. Which kind of gives away who and I am sorry, but it seemed much more sensible than not bothering. Spoiling papers/not bothering to vote (same thing) benefited the BNP etc, not the main parties.

So you voted UKIP? ;)

Sorry, but what a silly thing to do. You may as well not bothered turning up.

Obviously, I disagree, and it is very different to not bothering. Voting by spoiling your paper is noted (but not by the LEP) and is a direct civil action (though obviously of very minor note) by which a citizen can question the legitimacy and accountability of a legaslative body which raises taxes off me to which I have no right of objection.

Id just rather not vote. Didnt see the point 2bh! I know its our democratic right which has been fought for for generations, however when all the parties are on the take and you agree with none of them and are sick of the general policy being to bash their opposition who exactly do you vote for?

I've spoiled my vote in the past - I feel it is better than not turning up at all - it shows that you care, and are not apathetic, just that you find it impossible to back any of the candidates.

We're working on making it possible for people who oppose the establishment parties, and are sickened by the fascism and racism of the BNP, to vote for someone decent.

We're working on making it possible for people who oppose the establishment parties, and are sickened by the fascism and racism of the BNP, to vote for someone decent.

Yet, by spoiling your vote/not bothering (I don't care who "notes" it, it has the same end result) help the BNP etc gain through their legitimate votes.

And no, I didn't vote UKIP! They are simply a higher class of BNP!

I think you're absolutely right JohnH, having to spoil your vote is deeply unsatisfactory.

Luckily in the Euro Elections, I was able to vote for No2EU - Yes to Democracy, and in the Council Elections I voted Green. Those of us who find the main parties' behaviour and policies disgusting and inadequate to meet the needs of ordinary people do need to get our act together to put forward an alternative that people can vote for, without feeling physically sick.

Does anyone know what is going on the old Shell garage site on Blackpool Road. Its completely gone now and they seem to have the land to the rear of Aldi. Was wondering what is going to go there as i have need no planning docs on any lamp posts.

wow... another petrol station gone? The one on New Hall Lane has closed down as well (not the BP, the other one)