The Plaza? Went past it a while back and it was all closed up. Wouldnt be supprised if that didnt eventually become apartments, when the economy picks up that is.

Went past the old Shell site and theres a big hole in the ground. Its not where the tank was as thats aleady been taken out. What could they be doing...

What could they be doing...

New entrance to Deepdale Retail Park maybe? Doesn't answer the question of the hole unless there were other workings needing removal first.

Maybe the residents of Deepdale are finally getting that pond they've always wanted ;)

I give it a week before it is vandalised and full of trollies :lol:

Think Aldi would be in the way for a new entrance? Also didnt they shelve any expansion of the retail park. Also would it kill them to make a bus route that went to the retail park. Divert the 14 abit?

If the former Longride rail line was ever converted to light rail (or even guided bus), it would be ideal, as it runs through the park in a cutting.

That would be cool. Could also connect the retail park and the Currys/Pcworld part together. Would also mean I could get the train home :D

Have they ever seriously looked into reopening the Longridge line. It could reduce quite abit of traffic. University, PNE, Retail Park and Red Scar, potential is there to take alot of cars off the road.

potential is there to take alot of cars off the road.

Potential is one thing, people actually doing it is another! Public transport can be good for single people, start trying to travel as a family and the cost quickly increases to match or exceed the cost of driving - even given Preston's extortionate-in-places parking fees.

Since Preston brought in Sunday parking fees in the Bus Station, our visits to the town have dropped to virtually nil. It sounds silly as it is further to drive, but places like Southport and Manchester are cheaper to park - and 100 times better to visit. (Having major attractions open on a Sunday always helps too!)

So, open light rail, guided buses etc (and if Riversider is reading, flying carpets, motorised donkeys etc) to your heart's content, just remember that you need to really encourage and attract people to use them.

To be fair the rail line would only serve those that the line went past. Would need other things intergrated in with it So people in Longridge/Goosnargh would have better access to Preston City Centre and everything inbetween. If you had some sort of Park and ride with a station in it that could serve both commuters and people wanting to go the city centre/retail park. The amount of congestion around Redscar and Deepdale Retail Park is horriffic and will only get worse as they expand.

Infact thinking about it, how about reopening the Dockline to trains, have a park and ride at one end, then open the line up all the way to longridge, have some sort of park and ride. Dont know how the trains would work getting through the train station, or even if its possible. But that way you could cut out alot of traffic trying to get into the city and the big employment areas.

P+R > Docks > Train Station > University > PNE (only stop on matchdays) > Deepdale Retail Park > Redscar > Park and Ride > Grimsargh > Longridge

Also lets not forget match days, if you were coming from say Manchester to Preston to see at match, having to change trains at the train station opposed to walking across the city centre would make it much more appealing to use public transport opposed to driving your car.

Much better use of money than trams/monorail or any other rubbish they come up with. Then again its all about money isnt it. Oh well!

On thoughs, with regards to funding you could always ask the university, PNE, retail park and redscar to contribute :P

Then again its all about money isnt it. Oh well!

Oh don't you start, we get quite enough of that crap from Riversider. :bash:

When it comes to anything more than buses for public transport it is in this country. Transport policy in this country is so London centric is isnt even funny anymore. 15 billion for Crossrail while the rest of the country can f*** off.

When it comes to anything more than buses for public transport it is in this country. Transport policy in this country is so London centric is isnt even funny anymore. 15 billion for Crossrail while the rest of the country can f*** off.

Did I imagine the West Coast Mainline being upgraded then?

Is that £15Bn taxpayers money though?

West coast mainline is just about the only thing they have done. Its still behind the rail network on the continent. Considering they want people out of cars they still havnt yet provided a realistic alternative.

15Billion of tax payers money. To put that in perspective Manchester wanted 3 Billion for:

Massive tram expansion
Improved and more buses
School Buses
Increase train capacity
Refurbish train stations
More cycle routes
Oyster card type system.

But of course Manchester didnt get it because they rejected the TIF. Rightly so. If that 15 billion was given to the Englands major cities opposed to London then they could all have excellent public transport systems. Its a case of whatever London needs for public transport it gets at the expense of everywhere else.

I also think that it shocking that some of our biggest cities, Liverpool, Leeds, Birmingham dont have any form of Tram Network. So when it comes to planning for Prestons transport future unless its a bus then we aint getting it.

End of rant!

Tithebarn has been given planning permission! So now we wait...

So now we wait...

So what have we been doing for the last 10 years then??? :cheers:

You have to learn to walk before you can run. Its just the case that with Tithebarn we have had to wait for its legs to grow!

I'm afraid our billionaire friend is in no rush, and we'll all be doing a lot more waiting.

In the meantime, I've cautiously welcomed Elliot Lewis-Wards comments on Preston Rail Station on my blog: http://riversstream.blogspot.com/2009/07/preston-railway-station-glorious.html

we'll all be doing a lot more waiting.


Even more if those wankers by the seaside get their way and manage to get it called in (if that is still possible).

Personally, I believe that in such an instance, all businesses interested in Tithebarn should be banned from recruiting anyone with a FilthyScumpool address.

To be honest with the economy in the state that it is in i really cant see them calling it in. Isnt it something like 350 construction workers that will be employed to build it. Im sure that figure was mentioned in the LEP. Thats 350 people off the dole for the next couple of years while it gets built and also helping one of the most affected industries in the country.

That is an intelligent view Captain Jason, and therefore not one that Blackpool/Blackburn and all the other anti-TBers will be taking.

Even more if those wankers by the seaside get their way and manage to get it called in (if that is still possible).

Personally, I believe that in such an instance, all businesses interested in Tithebarn should be banned from recruiting anyone with a FilthyScumpool address.

If you read the Blackpool Gazette yesterday, most people in Blackpool support the Tithebarn project and are critical of their council for it's stance.

coming from central lancashire, out of the several major towns in the vicinty; wigan, bolton, bpool etc preston is best placed

PRESTON TRINGE - 23-31 JULY 2009

I hope you've heard about The Tringe - Preston's inaugulral Edinburgh Fringe style festival of performing arts at six different venues across the city centre which starts tonight at The Adelphi. It's about bringing theatre, music, magic and the unpredictable to the city centre on an open access platform.
The Tringe has been set up by Screaming Theatre and has attracted 23 acts doing 50 odd shows over the next 9 days and is something new for Preston and how we use our city centre. Not bad for a first go!
My contribution has been setting up a one-off theatre group called STAGE VICTIMS and we're doing a 40 minute play called The Lift on Mon & Tue 27 & 28 July at 1.00pm in the Avenham Park Pavilion and at &.7.30pm in The Angel, Lune St. I'm also doing Front Of House for all the acts coming to the APP later in the week and playing in a musical duet at the Café Equator on Wednesday at 2.00pm.
It'll be a great chance to see some challengeing and unusual shows in Preston, so check out www.tringe.co.uk (http://www.tringe.co.uk) for The Tringe full listings.

OK - blatant advertising - but it's as much about Prestonians trying to generate vibrant cultural activity in the city centre which is an integral part of developing the city centre into being an interesting place to be.

I hope you will support as many events as you can over the next 9 days - nothing is over £4.00 per show (except one thing at The Continental which includes a buffet) so it's not going to break the bank.
Cheers folks,
Tark.

This kind of grass roots self-generated cultural work will do far more to regenerate Preston than any number of parasitic billionaires and politicians. It gives people something unique, a sense of community, a reason why being here is different from being anywhere else, and perhaps more importantly than anything, a sense that we can organise and do great things for ourselves.

Well done Tark. I'll certainly be visiting several of the Tringe events, and will look out for you.

.....one thing which has happened already and (possibly) something to come.

Work finishes on V&A Buildings:
http://www.lep.co.uk/businessnews/News-shops-being-filled-.5498604.jp

UCLan buys a piece of land:
http://www.lep.co.uk/news/UCLan39s-strategic-land-grab.5497365.jp

It gives people something unique

Preston's inaugural Edinburgh Fringe style festival of performing arts

Struggling with the concept of "unique" there Riversider.

If it will be full of people keen on having a good time, then great. If it is full of Riversider types, only going because of the self-important "ooh, aren't I cultural" buzz it gives themselves, I'll give a it a big swerve thanks.

But if UcLan builds on the roundabout site at Hope St/Corporation St the Built Enviro students will have to find a new site to do all their Theory and History assignments on, :| lol..

Hopefully the warehouses on Hope Street would be kept. They arent anything special but they add alittle something.

Hopefully the warehouses on Hope Street would be kept. They arent anything special but they add alittle something.

I love walking down that little side street. For about 8 seconds, it feels like walking through Temple Bar in Dublin.

I hope UCLan will eventually build something of note on this site. Its too prominent to waste on a mundane teaching or accommodation block.

Struggling with the concept of "unique" there Riversider.

If it will be full of people keen on having a good time, then great. If it is full of Riversider types, only going because of the self-important "ooh, aren't I cultural" buzz it gives themselves, I'll give a it a big swerve thanks.

Hey, and I'm struggling at the bash at RS there JonH.
If you want to give culture a 'big swerve' then fine -be a flathead all your life.
A large number of people have worked really hard to make Preston a more interesting place to live. Take my TRinge show for example.
After 3 months' rehearsal work we got 2 x 15 audiences in the Avenham Park Pavilion at 1.00pm. Between us, we could give you the first names of 50% of those audiences.
But for both performances our marketing brought strangers to see what we were up to - we got a couple of office girls for one show and some 'Broadgate' residents for another. Maybe one was RS? - I don't know. The other 40 or so who saw our evening shows at The Angel saw a different knind of show, but certainly nothing like you'd see at The Charter Theatre.
It's not full of anything, JonH. Go see the show at the Angel at 7.30 Thurs or Fri and see for yourself.

If you want to give culture a 'big swerve' then fine -be a flathead all your life.


certainly nothing like you'd see at The Charter Theatre

Thanks for proving my point. Good luck with the shows anyway.

I love walking down that little side street. For about 8 seconds, it feels like walking through Temple Bar in Dublin.

I hope UCLan will eventually build something of note on this site. Its too prominent to waste on a mundane teaching or accommodation block.

Hopefully they will end up with the car park next to it eventually as well. This area could potentially become something special. This site, views towards the Harris/Media Factory, a redeveloped Fylde Building, Gas works site and er (Foster Building). Hopefully the University will do something interesting. I have faith that they will considering their past few buildings.

http://www.lep.co.uk/news/Blackpool-leader-takes-on-Tithebarn.5511225.jp

Just proves that Blackpoool is talking out of its arse...

"There has been huge regeneration to Preston already. I remember what it was like...Poor Proud Preston they used to call them and they came to Blackpool to go shopping. That's how it was."

Since when? Preston has always been for shopping and Blackpool for 'leisure' for as long as i can remember. Blackpool but everything on the casino and then lost it. So now they are trying to steal from Preston. Why would anyone go shopping in Blackpool? If you go off catchment areas then Preston has a much bigger one than Blackpool as its inland. I hope that Blackpools objections get thrown out.

Also where is this huge renegeration in Preston? What about the huge regeneration that has happened in Blackpool, Replacing the trams and the entire waterfront for a start! Blackpool is some cheesy naff resort from a byegone era. It needs to move on or die. Trying to damage other local centres is not the way to do it!

[QUOTE=CaptainJason;40577540"There has been huge regeneration to Preston already. I remember what it was like...Poor Proud Preston they used to call them and they came to Blackpool to go shopping. That's how it was."
[/QUOTE]

Utter rubbish!! I have lived in this area nearly 10 years and the number of times I have been to Blackpool for shopping?

0

Blackpudlians (or whatever you call them) have traditionally gone to Preston for "proper shopping" and I have been told that by people who live there. (God only knows what that says about Blackpool's shops if Preston is considered superior!!)

Do these idiots think people in Blackpool never venture out or would not apply for jobs in other towns?

Morons, total utter morons.

Here's a really good document on the implications of the privatisation of public space: http://www.annaminton.com/Privatepublicspace.pdf

I've just been taking a look at the revamped Spitalfields market in London, and I've got to say its very similar to how I imagine Preston's would be redone. If its anything like it then I'll be more than happy.

Here's a really good document on the implications of the privatisation of public space: http://www.annaminton.com/Privatepublicspace.pdf

Looks like an interesting article. Shall have a proper read over it tomorrow as I am now unemployed :ohno:
Just one thing though in relation to the part that describes Liverpool as this part interests me the most as it is something that i know the most about. It describes it as "privatisation of the entire city centre" when it is infact not. Id say you would be lucky if it was a quarter of the retail area. It also seems to make no mention of what was there before, how it it actually now functions, or the massive benefits it has brought to the city . Like i said it seems interesting enough and i will have a read.


Any one have any idea when we will know if that t*** in Blackpool has succeded with his blatant bull?

Utter rubbish!! I have lived in this area nearly 10 years and the number of times I have been to Blackpool for shopping?

0

Blackpudlians (or whatever you call them) have traditionally gone to Preston for "proper shopping" and I have been told that by people who live there. (God only knows what that says about Blackpool's shops if Preston is considered superior!!)


Do these idiots think people in Blackpool never venture out or would not apply for jobs in other towns?

Morons, total utter morons.

Ill second that truck builder

http://www.preston.gov.uk/business/central-business-district/

Obviously a long way off, but there's a small update on the CBD (small renders in the site plans).

Wow... some pretty impressive stuff there! I know its a long way off but I really hope at least some of that goes ahead. The area around that junction is a complete embarrassment at the moment.

I like the Corporation St/Hill Street element. Looks like the Premier Inn on the Fox Street car park is a far more conventional design now.

hey all, went past GEC Alstoms the otherday and thought wow that would make a great olympic pool.

I like the Corporation St/Hill Street element. Looks like the Premier Inn on the Fox Street car park is a far more conventional design now.

Signs appeared on Fox St over the w/e stating that the car park is now closed permanently - indeed it is now 'roped' off. Expect site huts soon.

I saw that yesterday when i was walking through. Exciting times indeed. Is it still going to be the origional building or has it been replaced with crap. Also there are for sale signs on the old tradex site. Whats that all about?

Well it's about time! As far as I am aware, the approved plans for Fox Street are now for the [new and plainer] 140 bed, 7 storey hotel and the 12 storey student accommodation (which includes the mission church). Both include cafe/restaurant/drinking establishment uses on the ground floors. Maybe the Staples site will see action over the next few months, too as those plans were also approved.

Have we still not seen what the new plans look like? Are they on the hoardings?

I have tried searching for renders but the closest thing I got was the tiny render on the link I posted a few days ago ^

I have tried searching for renders but the closest thing I got was the tiny render on the link I posted a few days ago ^

I must admit, I was not a big fan of the original design. Then I saw the render that you posted and realised it was pretty good after all. Oh well... :ohno:

Shame that the original isnt happening. I quite liked it.

Other more positive news..

http://www.lep.co.uk/news/Battle-over-city-redevelopment-gets.5547617.jp

Seems that LCC might actually be doing something for the good of Preston :O
Hopefully this will shut Blackpool up and they wont decide to cut their nose off to spite its face!

Shame that the original isnt happening. I quite liked it.

Other more positive news..

http://www.lep.co.uk/news/Battle-over-city-redevelopment-gets.5547617.jp

Seems that LCC might actually be doing something for the good of Preston :O
Hopefully this will shut Blackpool up and they wont decide to cut their nose off to spite its face!

I doubt it, I get the impression that those in Scumpool are dumb enough to press on!

Perhaps they should direct as much effort at recurring safety inspections at the "Pleasure" Beach!!

http://www.worthingtons.co.uk/index.html
There is a slightly better render of the hotel on this websites homepage, though the 12 storey block isn't featured. However, today the LEP says it will be a hexagonal building but it also features the 'colourful' hotel as the hotel being built. We can live in hope :p
http://www.outerspaceuk.com/
Also, interesting take on how the CBD may look at the above website. I quite like the layout, it looks a lot better than previous suggestions (though we always knew the idea of 'demolishing' Friargate wouldn't happen. Though, it is Preston so who knows?

http://www.worthingtons.co.uk/index.html
There is a slightly better render of the hotel on this websites homepage, though the 12 storey block isn't featured. However, today the LEP says it will be a hexagonal building but it also features the 'colourful' hotel as the hotel being built. We can live in hope :p

Kopa Hall is also featured on that website... noooooooooo!

I doubt it, I get the impression that those in Scumpool are dumb enough to press on!

Perhaps they should direct as much effort at recurring safety inspections at the "Pleasure" Beach!!

Jon by calling Blackpool Scumpool you work against the many people in Blackpool who are pushing for the council to reject their daft stance about Preston.

http://www.outerspaceuk.com/
Also, interesting take on how the CBD may look at the above website. I quite like the layout, it looks a lot better than previous suggestions (though we always knew the idea of 'demolishing' Friargate wouldn't happen. Though, it is Preston so who knows?

That looks fantastic. A tower on the fork between the Ringway and Fishergate would look amazing while driving from Ribbleton direction :cool:

Btw, 3 diggers on site at Fox Street!

It would be a great place, furthermore the restricted space and shape would mean the design would have to take on a less conventional 'blocky' shape, I'd imagine.. it could lead to something special. A far better landmark on entry to Preston than say, the recently redone Victoria buildings nearby :|

One of Preston's biggest regeneration projects is ready to get underway, it has been revealed. New Vision Board chief executive Eliot Lewis-Ward said that a legal agreement had been signed to push ahead with the Churchgate scheme.

It is expected that will revive a corner at the junction of Lancaster Road and Church Street, opposite the St John's Minister and including the former TSB building, into the first part of the Central Business District (CBD) 'office quarter.'

The development to create high-quality office space in the city centre had been expected to happen when work gets underway on the new bus station as part of the long-awited Tithebarn scheme, but now it could happen even sooner.

Mr Lewis-Ward said: "That is something which has been on the backburner for a while and has been seen as something which will happen after Tithebarn, but we are looking at bringing that forward in the near future.

"It is currently a mixed use scheme led by offices but with some residential and one of my key goals is to bring high-quality office space into the city centre, this is one area we want to do that."

He added the area at the junction of Corporation Street and Ringway, which has been discussed as being the heart of the CBD, was still part of the plans but "not exclusively."

The chief executive, who officially takes up his post next month ((SEPT)), said he was confident that the high-quality of tenants, including major government departments already located in the city, could be attracted into new office space.

The Department of Work and Pensions and HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) currently has thousands of workers in city centre offices earmarked for demolition as part of the Tithebarn scheme, which could be relocated into new developments.

Mr Lewis-Ward revealed that 'heads of terms' had been drawn up for the scheme by developers Ask:Bluemantle and the development is ready to move forward.

He said: "There are some land ownership issues to what would need to be acquired as some of it is not in public ownership, but I need to get under the skin of that and sort out what the issues are and how they can be resolved.

"There is definitely an appetite to make something happen and obviously two major developers with a great pedigree of schemes behind them."

Solves the mystery of where the office workers will go. I assume them mean the scheme where everyting to the left of the old TSB is demolished?

Solves the mystery of where the office workers will go. I assume them mean the scheme where everyting to the left of the old TSB is demolished?
You can see the TSB at the back of this render:
http://www.bluemantlegroup.co.uk/newdevelopments4.html

Great news!

Wooo. One step in the right direction in improving Church Street!

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/documents/About%20us/New%20Lines%20Programme/5886_NewLineStudy_synopsis.pdf
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/documents/About%20us/New%20Lines%20Programme/5883_Strategic%20Business%20Case.pdf

Interesting that Preston is one of the stations they are considering alongside places like Manchester, Liverpool and Birmingham. Would be an excellent boost for the city. You could get to London from Preston in just over and hour, essentially making it commutable (by London standards). Would essentially make Preston the prime location for business in Lancashire!

Should Fox street be starting and Church Street a cert.. you could say that Preston's recession period is seeing a bigger boom than during the high times, :| ...

Would Preston's involvement in the new rail system mean the west coast mainline is of little use? seeing as most of the stations would be the same? Either way it's little harm to the city if it can be accessed faster.

Would Preston's involvement in the new rail system mean the west coast mainline is of little use? seeing as most of the stations would be the same? Either way it's little harm to the city if it can be accessed faster.
From my understanding of the BBC's NorthWest Tonight bulletin, it will be a totally new line, and enter from the south along the line of the old Lancs/Yorks Rly route perhaps. This frees up the existing West Coast Mainline for many more regional stopping trains to the likes of Crewe, Stafford & Wolverhampton, and on to Wales and the South West for example.
One is expecting Blackpool and Blackburn to fiercly object to the proposals because it will give Preston an 'unfair' advantage. :ohno:
Coatsieboy's big article in the LEP with Malcolm McVicar & Eliot Lewis-Ward was interesting, but I fear from his comments that EL-W is unable to grasp the deep-seated and chronic problems Preston needs to address. For example, he said that that the problem of Miller Arcade could be 'easily' solved with signage, whilst admitting he did not know the history of the building! Well, Miller Arcade has failed as a retail and business venture from the day it was completed in 1904 because, no matter how lovely it is as a building, it lacks the critical mass to be a destination in its own right. No amount of signage will make people walk there. It's location between Fishergate and the Tithebarn could be its salvation in the long run, but equally, its location between the Harris & The Minster will always be against it in terms of retail footfall.
EL-W seems to have a great deal of faith in papering over the cracks, but what Preston needs in the short term is a heavy dose of stripping down to the bare bones. By that I mean getting rid of the vast amount of City and County Council proscribed clutter that infests our city centre streets. Integrating necessary signage, street lighting, public litter bins, bus stops, seating (plus, I'm sure, a raft of other public utilities I can't think of off the top of my head) into an all encompassing cohesive design strategy would remove TONS of the needless crap I see as I walk through the city centre. Indeed, the scrap value of mush of the crap we need to get rid of would go a decent way to paying for it, and make the centre more ledgible to the user in the process. I'd happily turn these thoughts into a substantial document, but the powers that be always seem to want to employ consultants to go "twig gathering", rather than find someone with the reasonable power and authority to start a fire.

It seems that the station for the new line would be most likely on the outskirts. This way they can avoid too many planning wrangles (avoiding densely populated areas) and avoid having to slow down due to sharp curves in urban areas. I'm guessing the likely location would be near one of the local M6 junctions. If this was the case, I'd be very surprised if Blackburn objected, as it isn't too far from the M6 itself.

Should Fox street be starting and Church Street a cert.. you could say that Preston's recession period is seeing a bigger boom than during the high times
I was thinking that myself. In addition to those, we have:
- The redevelopment of the train station
- The new UCLAN leisure centre (U/C)
- The new UCLAN forensics building (U/C)
- Corporation Street student village (2 buildings, prep)
- Fylde Road Student Village

As well as those, other possible developments in the near future:
- UCLAN buying up the former garage on the adelphi roundabout
- Proposals for the student block on the derelict car wash site on Walker Street
- The Police Station... wonder what will happen with that one??

Fraid the Corporation Street site is up for sale at the moment, so that probably isn't going to happen soon. As is the Friargate site - Rags, Popadom Palace etc. - Apparently the Friargate developer has gone bankrupt. I have to say I hope this particular development doesn't happen in its current proposed form. A featureless slab, totally out of scale with the rest of Friargate, which between the Adelphi Roundabout and the Ringway has I believe a very attractive and cohesive form - in need of some tlc admittedly. Also I can’t imagine the Churchgate scheme getting underway anytime soon. A small matter of re-housing the residents of the 50 or so flats above, plus the relatively new Tesco and East is East. It is going to look great when complete however.
On a positive note, from what I have heard from the LCC highways department, there is still a lot of behind the scenes activity with regards to Tithebarn, so plenty of hope of something soon.

You can see the TSB at the back of this render:
http://www.bluemantlegroup.co.uk/newdevelopments4.html

Interesting, I had not previously seen any mention of a library in that scheme.

I fear from his comments that EL-W is unable to grasp the deep-seated and chronic problems Preston needs to address....

EL-W seems to have a great deal of faith in papering over the cracks,

Tark - I had very similar thoughts about ELW's 'strategic' tour round Preston City Centre, journalists and city bigwigs in tow.

It seems that the Vision Board has finally been chastened by the abject successive failures of their outrageously overblown projects and ideas, and the ridicule this brought them.

Now ELW, and the recession, is here, and they have gone to the opposite extreme - to the utterly and pathetically small, but does his salary justify a programme whose ambition stretches to changing a few street signs?

What is still common to both yesterday's bombastically over-ambitious ideas, and today's ludicrously petty-fogging schemes, is the complete lack of any attempt by the secretive, unelected and undemocratic Vision Board to engage with the ordinary people of Preston, to find out our 'Visions' for our city. Without such democratic engagement, openness and accountability all their projects, whether enormous or minuscule will inevitably continue to crash and burn.

Revised planning application gone in for St Josephs Orphanage on Mount Street, which is great as the building was starting to deteriorate rapidly

http://www.preston.gov.uk/GetAsset.aspx?id=fAA0ADIAMwA2AHwAfABGAGEAbABzAGUAfAB8ADAAfAA

On the proposals for a new high speed rail line, with a station on Preston's outskirts, I'd say that if it ever gets off the ground, it will require much better public transport.

It will be no good at all being able to get here in around an hour from London or Edinburgh, if we then have to spend almost as much time again sat on New Hall Lane or the Ringway stuck in traffic.

We'll need excellent clean, cheap bus links between the new station and the central bus and rail facilities, and this will challenge our public transport capacity, especially if we go ahead with the downgrading and relocation of our bus station.

Much better would be a tram system between the city centre (with a city centre loop) and HSR station. Tram systems have a higher capacity than buses and dont have the same problems regarding congestion/traffic lights.

Much better would be a tram system between the city centre (with a city centre loop) and HSR station. Tram systems have a higher capacity than buses and dont have the same problems regarding congestion/traffic lights.

Trams are also hugely expensive and disruptive to build, even allowing for the use of existing, former rail lines etc. Though the new, designed for the level of demand, bus station (as opposed to the half used for decades whilst providing large scale, regular bus services current bus station) would be better placed to connect with a tram line, as the tram would stop on Church Street outside before continuing down Fishergate to the current rail station.

Would like to respond to some of R-sider's comments, but they are so full of Commie bluff, I can't be bothered.

Expensive, however linking the city centre (and all the commuters) to the HSR station might make the case for it. It would also make much more sense that having multiple bus services further blocking up the roads going between the Bus Station/Rail Station and the HSR Station (which I assume will be at the Tickled Trout). Could use the old Longridge line for the line, either fully (joining at the train station) or partially (joining off Deepdale Road). Hopefully if this does happen they will like it to the city centre properly. The benefits of Preston being just over an hour from the capital are huge! Effectively makes the Preston to London commutable!

Trams are also hugely expensive and disruptive to build, even allowing for the use of existing, former rail lines etc.

I'm going to try hard not to take sides in the tram Vs bus controversy, though I do lean toward a simple system of regular shuttle buses.

I think high quality clean cheap buses can be just as good as trams, and have the added bonus of flexibility and easy integration with regular traffic. If we succeed in getting people out of cars and on to buses, then the problem of being stuck in traffic jams is mitigated.

Tram systems can be carbon free at the point of use, can be very efficient and over the long term can justify the disruption it takes to build them. There may be huge difficulties in terms of the interaction between trams and regular traffic where the tramline might meet and cross the Ringway/London Rd - already a pinch point in terms of rush hour traffic.

the new, designed for the level of demand, bus station (as opposed to the half used for decades whilst providing large scale, regular bus services current bus station) would be better placed to connect with a tram line, as the tram would stop on Church Street outside before continuing down Fishergate to the current rail station.

Would like to respond to some of R-sider's comments, but they are so full of Commie bluff, I can't be bothered.

If a tram system were to be built linking the high speed rail station at the Tickled Trout with the city centre, the current bus station would be an ideal terminus. The proposed new smaller downgraded bus station would be swamped as there would not be room for both buses and trams. This is not 'commie bluff', just 'common sense'. Enthusiasm for a tram system could be what saves Preston Bus Station.

There are however big drawbacks to trams in Preston's tight streets. Giving priority to trams on Fishergate (as I assume trams will need two lines to travel in both directions) would force buses from the new bus station to take a long and circuitous route round the city centre, further discouraging people from using them. It would be better to have a partly circular route, so that there is only a single line looping around the city centre, with trams coming from the Tickled trout to be routed via the existing bus station, then along ringway to the railway station, then back along Fishergate and then to link back up at the existing bus station. Even with this layout, the interaction between cars, buses and trams would not be at all ideal - it might even be that any tram system could only work if cars were excluded from the city centre altogether, which doesn't seem very realistic to me (though perhaps this is me being shortsighted, and not grasping the nettle of what is actually needed!)

Those charged with planning our city have given no thought whatsoever to future public transport needs in an age of global warming and peak oil, instead basing everything on today's inadequate levels of provision, letting things develop in an ad hoc way, and reacting to periodic crises rather than planning rationally. This means that whenever anything like the proposals for a High Speed Rail Link comes out, it exposes all the flaws in their existing plans and sends everyone back to the drawing boards, trying to work out how on earth to integrate 3 widely separated public transport nodes in the context of an overburdened road system.

As a consequence I fear we will suffer many more years of traffic gridlock and high local carbon emissions, with or without the HSR.

Expensive, however linking the city centre (and all the commuters) to the HSR station might make the case for it.
the HSR Station (which I assume will be at the Tickled Trout). Could use the old Longridge line for the line, either fully (joining at the train station) or partially (joining off Deepdale Road). Hopefully if this does happen they will like it to the city centre properly. The benefits of Preston being just over an hour from the capital are huge! Effectively makes the Preston to London commutable!

An HSR station at Red Scar would save a lot of disruption in the city centre and be the long needed justification for reopening the Longridge line as a light rail connection to the city centre, at least as far as Grimsargh.

On another note, sad news for Preston about the NFM at Deepdale, but I don't think there's much we can do about losing it.

Trams are higher capacity than buses. If Preston is going to become a major commuting area for everything north of Manchester then it needs ways of getting people from its bus and train station to the HSR Station. Otherwise you will simply add the the volume of people on the roads. If you just simply ad more buses, of which i assume you would need alot at peak times, then your simple adding to the congestion you already get in the areas mentioned, also the efficiency of the service is compromised when you get accidents (ever tried to get in/out of Preston when there has been an accident). The most sensible way would be to run trains/trams down the old Longridge Rail way, they wouldnt be affected by any traffic issues, they would also help Preston commuters who work on Red Scar. In this case expanding bus services just wouldnt cut it. For example..

Bob commutes from Chorley to Preston, this takes 12 minutes on the train.
He then takes a tram/train to the HSR station which makes 2 stops (Retail Park and RedScar) before entering the HSR station. Takes what? 15 minutes. Then Bob gets on his train and zooms to London.

Now...
Bob commutes from Chorley to Preston, this takes 12 minutes on the train. He then walks across Preston City centre to get a Bus. 15 Minutes? Bob gets his bus, but is stuck in Traffic as there has been an accident on the motorway. An hour after he leaves Chorley he gets to the HSR station. Hes missed his train and his meeting in London. Decides that next time he will simply drive as public transport it shit.

Route for trams,

Come out/exit at railway sidings on Corporation Street, Fleet Street, Lune Street, Friargate, Harris Street, Lancaster Road, Ormskirk Road, 'New Tithebarn Street', Church Street(Bus Station), Fishergate(train station), back down to tunnel. Fishergate should be closed to normal traffic anyway, show me a city which has its main shopping street open to general traffic?
It depends on how joined up their thinking is. If there is no big transport scheme to link the city centre/park and rides to the HSR then there would simply be traffic chaos. However these are indeed exciting times. Makes Preston a prime location for Business and Living. Also means we can in a way compete with Manchester, 6 mintues longer away from London but alot cheaper to be in.


It is a shame with the NFM, suprises me that Manchester didnt get it to start with! I think im might pay it a visit before it closes, seen as i have never been.

Your tram route makes a lot more sense than mine CJ. Good thinking about using those tunnels - though I still think the Old bus station would be a better terminus to link up bus and tram services due to it's size.

Thing is with Tram Services is that they dont have a terminus. They are on circular or through routes with stops along it. As unlike buses they are constantly moving. Also in Prestons case there would hypotetically be only the one circular route therefore there is no need for a terminus. Bus Stations need them as they have many routes coming to a single point in a city. Tram services dont.

Looks like you got shafted by the NWDA over the National Football Museum hey,I wonder what Manchesters' gimp Accura feels about this? He's been stuck so far up their arse for years,this should be interesting? :)

Looks like you got shafted by the NWDA over the National Football Museum

Why? They are the NWDA not the NWSA.

(I shall leave that to the intellect of the reader to work out, should be even more interesting....)

Apologies for my distinct lack of contribution this day and age but talk of HSR and public transport always peak the interest!

On the topic of HSR would an ideal spot not be Junction 31a with a tram line along the deepdale - longridge alignment to the city centre via the miley tunnel (if possible) to the train station?

To be honest tho I'm starting to be of the opinion that we spend too much time (and money) on HSR when the schemes that would be most beneficial would be to strengthen regional light/medium rail networks in the city regions/conurbations where the majority of journeys are actually made.

I think the idea behind it is to get Glasgow to London trains off the WCM as its going to reach capacity in 2020, therefore there would me more space on the WCM for inner city travel. Or something like that anyway.

With the block on Fox Street, the wall facing onto Ringway is now gone and there is a big hole. However they appear to be propping up the foundations for the old bike shop. This is still in the plans to go isnt it?

This is still in the plans to go isnt it?
God, I hope so. One of the worst eyesores in the city centre IMO.

Not good news today about Tithebarn. Even if it does go ahead, it spells yet more delays. I was walking through the area today and the idea of it remaining as it is repulses me. Especially now the bus station looks more like a prison camp with the new perimeter fence they have put up. Could they possibly make it look any uglier?!

Unsurprisingly, the whole scheme has been called in for a public enquiry, meaning even more delay.

I blog about this here: http://riversstream.blogspot.com/2009/09/tithebarn-petty-objections-or-petty.html

Unsurprisingly, the whole scheme has been called in for a public enquiry, meaning even more delay.


That's bye bye Tithebarn then. :bash:

Accura, don't forget that the current state of the Tithebarn Area is entirely the fault of these delays. :nuts: Though the fact that it has changed little in the fourteen years I have had any familiarity with Preston suggests differently.

That's bye bye Tithebarn then

If the developer pulls out over something as 'petty' as £800,000 (just over 0.1% of the total budget of £700million), then we'll know it's just a face saving excuse.

At the moment it's a pretty handy face-saving excuse for another long delay - till it's easier to get credit and retail conditions improve.

I didn't get yesterday's LEP but I did notice the headline about Tithebarn having a plan B. Did anyone see what that was exactly, as it is looking more and more likely by the minute.
Also, Wood Associate's website has been updated and includes renders of a few other developments including the hotel planned for the Staples site and some of the proposed student accommodation.

I'm going to try very hard not to mention eggs and baskets again. It will be very hard.

The whole council's strategy for the last 15 years is at risk of looking totally ridiculous.

The news on the Flag Market is another sign of the Vision Board's ineptitude. How did they imagine Prestonians would put up with tacky electronic banners, or a flag market without the flags? Latest in a list of stupid impractical ideas that are totally offensive to ordinary Preston people, all coming from the same rotten source.

Even the guys at Klangbury run their council better.

I'm going to try very hard not to mention eggs and baskets again. It will be very hard.
CBD? Riverworks? Churchgate? etc. Have I just imagined these?

With regards to Tithebarn, I still stand by what I said about having a plan B for that specific area. It would have hindered productivity, and I think various groups would disagree as to what should fall into what plan.

totally offensive to ordinary Preston people

Well, if that is all that counts to be offensive to a Prestonian, I envy the simplicity of their lives.

I find the BNP offensive. I find child abuse offensive. To label the proposals of the Flag Market as "offensive" is moronic stupidity of the highest order.

look at what's happening the world's greatest town lol .....

http://www.chorley-guardian.co.uk/chorley/Chorley-Asda-plans-revealed.5669011.jp

This will be great for that terrible corner of Chorley. However, you better be careful. Adlington and Coppull may object and there may be a public inquiry ;)

Chorley is getting another ASDA?! Blackburn and Blackpool must be shitting themselves!

To label the proposals of the Flag Market as "offensive" is moronic stupidity of the highest order.
Well Ken Hudson definitely didn't like them...

Morrisons won't be too happy I'll bet, but that is a very good proposal for a very grotty part of Chorley.

A news story flashed up (and quickly disappeared) on the LEP website this morning saying that Next is moving into the Woolworths building :D I hope they make use of the upper floors, they could make a large store on that site.

Why? Preston already has two large Next stores, we do not need another.

I hope your not referring to the one on Fishergate as large. Its tiny!

I heard a bit back that Next were interested in the Woolworths site. Glad to see they are moving in :) (Now that FG2 probably isn't going to happen!). The unit is pretty big so it will certainly be a change from the existing tiny stores on Fishergate/Friargate.

Jason: I meant the Woolworths store could be big store if they made use of the upper floors ;)

I should use the quote button. I was referring to JonH about the two large Next stores. Unless there is another one that i dont know of?

Whats the progress with Fox Street. The old bike shop gone yet?

Unless there is another one that i dont know of?

It would appear that there is!

I was not referring to the existing one on Fishergate! There is a large Next store at Deepdale retail park and another at the Capitol Centre.

Whats the progress with Fox Street. The old bike shop gone yet?
Looks like demolition might be starting. There were a lot of men in yellow jackets coming in and out of the building a few days ago.

Its pretty clear the recession is kicking in. We are down on last year every month this year except January!

http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/1480/preston1a.jpg

We seem to have attracted someone with talent and an appreciation of culture to Preston to help lead our Guild.

Lets hope she stays the course and teaches PCC a thing or two.

Careful Riversider, that was close to a positive comment!!:lol:

I can be incredibly positive. at heart I'm the most optimistic person I know - I really believe things could be much better.

Was in the ''City Centre'' this evening and noticed a big demolishment works had begun next to fishergate underground carpark.

As well I parked on Walker Street NCP and noticed it's surrounding by a mix of uni and resi apartments, is this parcel not destined for a huge uni res tower?

Was in the ''City Centre'' this evening and noticed a big demolishment works had begun next to fishergate underground carpark.

As well I parked on Walker Street NCP and noticed it's surrounding by a mix of uni and resi apartments, is this parcel not destined for a huge uni res tower?

The works next to the car park are the construction of a new Premier Inn hotel and a 12-storey block of student flats.

Walker Street NCP is earmarked as a future development site, but I hope nothing happens until May. Thats my favourite car park! The nearby police station site is also up for sale and will almost certainly be developed.

Bit of news... the old Booth's warehouse (ie: the site of the Linen Buildings) is being demolished. Am I wrong to feel a little excitement? ;)

Well that sounds encouraging that SOMETHING is happening on the site. However, the Linen Buildings have been removed from Countryside Properties website and the Linen Buildings web page has gone, too!

Ahh well... best not get too excited then ;) On a more encouraging note, demolition is now well underway on the former Fylde Superbikes building on the Fox Street car park site. Its now a hive of activity. Loads of plant on site this morning, including a piling rig. Could we see a crane for this one? ;)

I hope we do. One of the nice things about being in Liverpool is seeing cranes eventhough the economy is in shit and Gordon Browns about to do the nations biggest car boot sale!!

With regards to the Linen Buildings the only thing they would have added would be massing. They reminded me of a larger version of City One on Moor Lane. Hopefully something better will be proposed in time. Could be a good opportunity for future expansion of the cities core if done correct.

I got this from the Queen Street Retail Park section on PCC's website:

Due to the proposed full development scheme being dependent on the Countryside development coming forward in advance of the Horrocks Scheme, and given the uncertainty over the delivery of the Countryside scheme / access, it was proposed in the October 2008 TA that a phased approach be taken to the redevelopment of the Queens Retail Park site which allows elements of the scheme to be brought forward prior to the delivery of the Countryside access. It is proposed that this phased approach be retained and that an initial first phase of the development be accessed entirely via the existing Queens Retail Park access and include the following elements:
• Food Retail Store: 5,561 sq.m ( 59,860 sq.ft) GFA;
• Non-Food Retail: 800 sq.m (8,610 sq.ft) GFA;
• Hotel: 100 bed;
As with the full scheme previously outlined, the Homebase store would be retained as part of the initial phase of the development but the existing non-food retail units would be removed.

http://www.preston.gov.uk/environment-and-planning/planning/major-developments/queens-retail-park/

So perhaps it is the start of something to do with the Brookhouse development. But as usual, it's top secret :bash: And the decision on the application is still pending according to the website.

But as usual, it's top secret :bash: And the decision on the application is still pending according to the website.

You're turning into Riversider again!

I like the look of this scheme (depending on which supermarket moves in), however I am struggling to see an obvious link through to Church Street. Am I just missing it?

Lol. I am not Riversider. I just hate the secrecy surrounding these things.

There was a diagram on PCC's website showing pedestrian links connecting the scheme to Church Street, as part of 'Phase 2' if The Linen Buildings don't go ahead I would imagine

Everyone be sure to pick up a copy of the Evening Post tomorrow, won't you?!

Why's that?

Maybe the LEP has started doing page 3 girls ;)

........you feel fine?

http://www.lep.co.uk/news/-700m-Tithebarn-project-hit.5739827.jp

Lol. Ah it makes sense now. Well, we knew it was coming. Good job I should be moving to Birmingham next year!

Are Lend Lease still 100% committed? And by that I mean are they still looking to invest the full 700 million or are they going to reduce this amount? What does this mean for John Lewis? Does anyone know?

Bye bye Tithebarn.

Riversider will be on the lash tonight I have no doubt.

Very sad to hear this news, which is a major setback for Preston, and which confirms the warnings I've been making like Cassandra over the last decade.

We put all our eggs in one basket, we believed consultant's hype, we believed billionaires' promises. Many of the officials responsible have already jumped ship, but all the politicians who allowed this to happen in the first place remain in post.

Many many heads should roll.

Will Preston learn any lessons from this debacle? Or will our officials make excuses and hope everyone forgets about it, just like the little matter of the docks development in the 1980s.

Its not fully derailed yet but I do fear that the writing is on the wall. Wonder if that means that they are going to list the Bus Station then?

Riversider I think that your being a tad harsh. If anyones heads should roll its that of the Blackpool and Blackburn politicians. Bet that we have a similar thing when (if) High Speed rail is carried out. Utter bollocks. From this it seems that they have heard rumblings that the Bus Station will be listed. Which basically kills the entire scheme. IF it is listed I hope they get money to do the sodding thing up. There is no avoiding that it is a dump and the modern addition of railings makes it look even shitter.

This was just about the only shining light as far as Modern Architecture is concerned in Preston. I did a brief stint at an Architects over summer. The planning dept at PCC are idiots. If you want good modern architecture then move to Manchester or Liverpool.

Even if Tithebarn is eventually cancelled (which is looking ever more likely), the bus station should still not be allowed to remain. Whether the plan exists or not, the reasons for its demolition are still there and undeniably need to be actioned upon.

I'm sorry to hear about Tithebarn, despite my love for all things Blackpool, I've always supported the Tithebarn project. A successful Preston can only be good for Blackpool and visa versa.

Many many heads should roll.

I'd start with Louise Ellman, who made sure that Preston did not become a Unitary Authority years ago. It is her and the Power Monkeys at LCC that have done most to block the entire thing. cf Frank McKenna's quote in tonight's LEP.
Preston has always lacked strong leadership, but there have been others who have ensured that it was always not a wise idea to attempt to provide such leadership. I'm no Tory, God forbid, but Geoff Driver, like all politicians, has clasped his hands on the Greasy Pole of a manifesto of the same party that is most likely to gain national power next May, and he can't risk the febrile Tory grasp on LCC for the first time in 30 years, for what it's worth in the national game.
All we can do, if we can summon up the effort - and I'm sure I can't - is to lodge objections to every single Planning Application in Blackpool & Blackburn. Surely the building of an indoor ski slope in Blackpool will have an adverse effect on Preston's tourism offer? That kind of nonsense. If they want to play at it, so should we. But let's face it, we haven't got the willpower or balls, and for as long as we have Brown-nosing MPs like the thoroughly useless Hendrick or Swansea based Evans, Preston never will have.
There's been generations of shit political "leaders" in this area who have made sure that nothing good happens round here - I've been warned, with numerous practical examples, of this for the last 35 years of my 45 yr old life. The younger generations come through and say, "It can't always be so." We'll come and make something happen. But it is so.
Over the last couple of years here, I've drawn an uneasy truce with Riversider on a number of issues. I've got enough degrees and research hanging out of my arse to show that through educated and informed global experience, it is possible to deliver to uninformed locals not what they want, but what they never knew they could have. It's a hard road for all concerned, but it can and has happened. Preston has always lacked the politicians and officers to deliver, for many reasons, temporary and seemingly permanent, so we always get not what we want (or need) but what we end up with. So Riversider has ample evidence for the failures of our 'leaders'. And why should now be any different? For the last 150 years we've ended up with what we've ended up with as a result, and we'll end up with nothing better for evermore.
The only thing that sustains us is our perculiar national geographic locational gifts. And as far as I can see, we'll continue to make a molehill
out of that mountain till well after I'm dead.

From this it seems that they have heard rumblings that the Bus Station will be listed. Which basically kills the entire scheme. IF it is listed I hope they get money to do the sodding thing up. There is no avoiding that it is a dump and the modern addition of railings makes it look even shitter.

If the Bus Station is listed, Preston will officially be the biggest joke in the country - preserving a bus station that is oversized and impossible to fully utilise.

Read the LEP and it seems that those that wanted Tithebarn (which will never happen) were in the minority, the rest are happy with Home Bargains, Poundshops and Greggs festooning the streets. (I'm sure Riversider will blub something about the working classes of Preston, one presumes these are the working classes with expensive cars and personalised numberplates, the working classes with Sky subscriptions and big LCD tellies, the working classes out on the p*ss twice a week etc.)

Hey ho, be careful what you wish for. Too few of us wished for Preston to be improved, more wished for failure.

The town should hand it's City status to somewhere that deserves it. I yearn for the day I can move away from Preston and South Ribble and back to somewhere that resembles civilization.

The town should hand it's City status to somewhere that deserves it. I yearn for the day I can move away from Preston and South Ribble and back to somewhere that resembles civilization.

I must admit I'm now 99% sure I won't be in Preston in 5 years time, not just because of the Tithebarn collapse (more a case of when rather than if now), but because of the general bad attitude towards forward thinking (another example being everyones hatred of UCLAN, one aspect of Preston which truly does deserve the city status) and tendency to listen to whoever shouts the loudest, no matter how credible their point is. The leadership of Preston may have large flaws, but these problems are far more down to the people. Preston is a city that has made great strides forward over the past few centuries, something that could have continued, but instead it is being held back by a few individuals with an inferiority complex (and no, not Riversider, he does make some very valid points) who would rather live their lives according to stereotypes rather than any kind of potential. Maybe people should look around the rest of the north, where forward thinking in towns and cities has resulted in a better quality of life. But of course, if people would rather rot in the rain with a massive chip on their shoulder, so be it. I will not be hanging around to see it.

With regards to the listing of the bus station................. *sigh*

Maybe people should look around the rest of the north

Good point.

I live in Leyland. In a day trip's distance, there are the following places:

Liverpool
Manchester
Lancaster
Southport
Leeds
Harrogate
York
Chester

to name a few.

Given all that these places have to offer, what do I need Preston for?

Not A Lot.

So see the Prestons equivalent of the 3 Graces. The majestic and wonderful Bus Station. Formerly Europes Largest dont you know...

No wonder Preston has such a job keeping graduates...

Well it is a very sad day when us lot, the only people ever to actually stick up for Preston, have lost faith in it altogether! I think maybe 10 years down the line, things may start to pick up again. But for now, I think we all intend to move onto bigger and better places for our regeneration cravings!

I think it's entirely wrong to blame the people of Preston for the Tithebarn problems.

From the start we were cut out of the loop, treated as ignorant and with low horizons and lower brows by people who thought that billionaires held all the answers to our problems. If there is one lesson the council should learn, it should learn that high-handed secretive undemocratic elitist planning does not work, especially in today's post credit-crunch society where the so-called 'experts' stand exposed as fools.

If Tithebarn does fail, it will be an opportunity to start again, but this time PROPERLY. Involving local people from the start, developing a 'Vision' together about what our city COULD be like, somewhere that is great to live and work.

If our leaders were brave enough, we could use all kinds of new technologies to wikify and 'open source' our city centre, and allow a bottom-up, democratic redesign, that gives everyone who actually uses our city a chance to make a real impression on what it looks like and how it works.

I've no idea what such a process would come up with, but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't look much like the current Tithebarn proposals.

In general I feel that the 'People of Preston' that you harp on about have sod all vision. Just take a look at the LEP comments section for a taste. The only part of Preston that seems to be moving forward is the University. Something which is constantly attacked. For instance the 'Uclad' article in the LEP. I love Preston and I really want to succed. But unless something drastic happens then nothing will change. Quite frankly I would rather be in Liverpool.

Mann Island/Museum development = Drool

Modern developments on on of the most iconic waterfronts in the world. Now that to me signals a potentially visionary city. What do we get in Preston, brick cladding, because its "Inkeeping"!!!!!!!!

If you want 'Vision' move to Manchester or Liverpool.

Wikipedia, firefox and second life show what's possible when you open things up to everyone, and allow their creativity, wisdom and knowledge to be expressed to the full.

If we gave ordinary people who have a real stake in the future of their city such a chance to redesign it, I think everyone would be amazed at what they came up with. You can guarantee it would be far better than anything the overpaid men in suits could muster.

Wouldn't it be something to live in the world's first wiki-city?

If we gave ordinary people who have a real stake in the future of their city such a chance to redesign it, I think everyone would be amazed at what they came up with. You can guarantee it would be far better than anything the overpaid men in suits could muster.


You are full of talk about this, but present no evidence. Show us where the people have succesfully redeveloped their own towns, and incidently accepted no profit in doing so to judge from your obvious hatred of people who make money for a living. (You'll deny this - but the evidence is in this thread)

"Ordinary" people don't give a damn, as Captain J says, you only need to see the comments on the LEP. The people you harp on about have, regretably, got the "city" they want. Just don't you try changing it.

Tithebarn is DEAD. No reasonable developer is going to look twice at Preston now.

I think JohH you are demonstrating which one of us is truly negative about Preston and it's people.

People do things that improve life for their community without being paid all the time, so often we don't even notice it. Without all that hidden and unrewarded work, our society would unravel at colossal speed.

I'm suggesting we be the FIRST to wikify our city - so naturally there are no examples of it having happened before, just as there were no online encyclopedias written entirely by everyone, because it was something interesting and useful to do, before wikipedia.

I'm not saying we won't need experts and professionals to make it happen, just that at the moment, the balance of power is wrong with money doing all the talking and ordinary people watching from the sidelines.

LOL maybe Lend Lease will move their interests to Blackpool. Oh, the irony...

The concept of wiki-planning strikes me as another desire for Utopia - well meaning, but impossible. When it comes to 'vision', the vast, vast majority of people cannot see further than the peak of their own cap.
As an analogy, many allotment owners are very good at growing vegetables on their plots, but do not have a clue about how to feed the world. The scale of local to global varies with every separate question raised.
Most people's experience of the 'the best', and therefore what can be, is limited to shopping trips in Preston, the Trafford Centre and a few holidays in Tenerife. They may be excellent tool-makers, electricians, train drivers or nurses but have little concept of the interconnectedness of all things or an overarching policy.
Britain actually has arguably the best planning legislation and framework in the world, but the problem is that, particularly on a very crowded island such as this, for each instance of planning for the greater good there will be at least one 'loser'. The trick is in making the difficult decisions, and making them the right ones. And how to bring belief to the short term 'losers' that the difficult decisions will do them and their children good in the long term.
In the short term, a much more practical attempt to alleviate Preston's chronic planning problems would be to abolish LCC. They've been stuffing us for years, and it would be interesting to see what could be achieved without their braindead interference.

I spent a year living in Preston until July this year and have been keeping up to date with the developments through here for a long time, I left because I frankly just missed all of the things that I was used to from living in Manchester & am now back in Newcastle instead. I have a lot of fond memories of Preston though and in particular it's people who were warm, friendly and usually wore a smile on their faces. I am pretty sad about the state of affairs with Tithebarn & not hugely optimistic about the future of the city (although perhaps the high speed line will be a catalyst if it does end up in Preston) while it's political system and outlook remains the same...

Strange that Tark argues for a strategic vision, then calls for the abolition of LCC, who have a far more strategic vantage point than Preston City Council.

The cause of the public enquiry for example is not LCC, but the unitary authorities of Blackpool and Blackburn, who if they were still part of LCC would have been unable to be so parochial.

Strangely enough, people are more than capable of seeing beyond the boundaries of their own roles. That's why allotment keepers set up allotment societies, and nurses, electricians and train drivers set up trade unions and professional associations.

The reason so many people don't lift themselves up out of the gutter to look up at the stars, is because they are simply never given the opportunity. Our modern communication technologies mean that democratic and decentralised planning is more possible now than ever before, the only limit is our own imaginations.

LCC, Ringway, enough said!

Sad times for the old hometown. :(

I still think the place has great potential but, as commented above, neither the council nor the people of Preston seem to have any great vision or ambition for it. A top to bottom rethink of Preston's economic strategy is required so that a proper city wide masterplan can be formulated. Perhaps then we can get people to subsrcibe to and support a redevelopment of the city.

In many ways I find myself agreeing with riversider in that you can't import success (in the form of a shiny shopping development) without the buy-in and support of local people. Would you invest £0.5bn in a city that wasn't 100% behind you? When capital is scarce you'll invest it in the best established locations and in areas where people want to help you succeed. Preston, at present, fulfills neither of these criteria.

Oh, I find Riversider's deconstructions of my arguments as full of holes as he finds mine - we really should have a pint or two together in the Conti sometime - best of 3 falls!
But nonetheless, news reached the telephone of TarkTowers this week that Steven Broomhead and other major players in town have recently been spotted walking through the Miley tunnel and beyond. Hopefully something can come of this...

Strange that Tark argues for a strategic vision, then calls for the abolition of LCC, who have a far more strategic vantage point than Preston City Council.
Thats pretty much the case... if you don't live in Preston. I find it very frustrating that authorities that left LCC are still benefiting from its funding.

Visited Birmingham this weekend. It was cheaper to park right in the centre of Birmingham than it is virtually anywhere in Preston. The coffee was cheaper too.

So what excitement do we think we may get on the proposed Linen Building site that is being cleared at the moment....maybe a sexy new flat car park full of potholes??

I have to say I’m feeling as pessimistic about the future of Preston at the moment as the rest of you at the moment. I was on the bus station recently and it really is in a very sorry state at the moment, not helped by the deeply unattractive security fencing that has been put in place recently. If the miracle doesn't happen and Tithebarn is officially halted soon, its going to be a long time before anything happens to that part of town and I hold no great hope of anything much when it does – why where the people of Preston so intent on saving what was already a 60’s disaster zone?
It has to be said despite the council bemoaning the state of Church Street, it was the council it self that started the rot, using CPO's to buy up the north side of street towards the Ringway and leaving it boarded up for years, before giving the land to a social housing providers to build utterly inappropriate low rise housing without any commercial units .

Grosvenor bought the St Johns Centre as a precursor to the Tithebarn. Now they've pulled out of the project I wonder if they'll try and sell it on?

If Lend Lease don't buy it soon then we know for sure that Tithebarn is definitely d-e-a-d!

http://www.thebusinessdesk.com/northwest/news/17823-discount-retailer-b-amp-m-moving-hq-to-liverpool.html?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=NorthWest_4th_Nov_2009_-_Daily_E-mail

I think JohH you are demonstrating which one of us is truly negative about Preston and it's people.


Oh, it was me that slammed and dismissed virtually every single development propsoed in Preston recently was it? How silly of me..... :ohno:

Given that virtually every single development propsoed in Preston recently has failed miserably, perhaps I was right to point out their flaws.

Shame that the council and the 'vision board' could not see what was so blatantly obvious to everyone else, we could have done a lot better with less secrecy and high handedness, and more democracy and common sense.

Shame that the council and the 'vision board' could not see what was so blatantly obvious to everyone else, we could have done a lot better with less secrecy and high handedness, and more democracy and common sense.

Well, I await the moment when someone does get up and suggest something else. After years and years, I have seen no significant, professionaly produced, publicly broadcast counter-proposal to Tithebarn. All that we get to any proposal is NO!

So, here we are, left with an oversized bus station, a fragmented street layout and the St John's Centre and covered market. Woo-blooming-hoo.

Can someone please explain who Aidan Turner-Bishop is please. It seems that he is more interested in keeping Preston as a virtual slum town than accepting any real progress.

Can someone please explain who Aidan Turner-Bishop is please. It seems that he is more interested in keeping Preston as a virtual slum town than accepting any real progress.

Something to do with the 20th Century Society which appears, on a quick glance at their website, to be a campaign group dedicated to saving fuck ugly buildings made of concrete.

As with all those who oppose the bus station being demolised, his actual, regular usage of said establishment remains unclear.

Interesting article from a couple of years back.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/artanddesign/2007/oct/01/architecture.transport

Interesting from the perspective that the author shows absolutely no interest whatsoever in the people who actually use the station, architectural "merit" clearly being a far more important aspect of judging a building! I.e. typical Grauniad luvvie claptrap.

AT-B has been a leading member of the Preston & South Ribble Civic Trust for many years. He is a lecturer at Lancaster University in - well, I'm not sure quite what but it's something to do with urbanism - and travels to and from work at the Uni from his South Ribble home every day by bus and bike - which I have seen him riding often from behind my windscreen. He does not own a car, as far as I know. He is well aware of my personal disagreement with his views on Preston bus station, but we have shared a pint together in the Black Horse, unified in our dismay at what PCC want the Cooper Partnership to do to despoil Winckley Square. It's a thoroughly dreadful scheme, and I shall certainly be collecting one of the pro-forma objection letters P&SRCT are handing out this weekend; and adding a few thoughts of my own.
I have a contrary opinion to AT-B on many issues for the way forward for Preston, but he is never duplicitous - he lives, works and travels only in a manner which he hopes is setting an example to us all that we too can do.

He is indeed a lecturer. Just looked on my UCLAN address book :P

Well, if Mr Turner-Bishop does use the bus station then he is entitled to his views.

(For the record, I am a former regular user of the bus station and the car park on top - since having a child and using a pushchair, use of that car park has reduced dramatically - other car parks are far more convenient for pushchair/wheelchair users)

I use the bus station twice a day and I despise it, it is not friendly to use especially with the new gates and barriers they have decided to put in, which go to show exactly how unsafe it was in the first place. I do agree with everything Frank McKenna said in tonights business section of the LEP.

I also think that it would be disgraceful if the NFM moves to Manchester, especially as now there is no valid reason for it.

I don't know why the LEP on-line edition has not posted the main article on P9 of tonight's edition; City station to be transport 'superhub' so I'll have to retype the relevant section;
"The [Better Rail Stations] document then moves on to visions of a long-term future for 2030, with seamless train-bus interchanges"
Yet further proof that LCC are the only planning body in the world that believe that new bus stations should be built half a mile away from railway stations (Manchester Road), even when they have been presented with a scheme showing how a more than adequate interchange can be created on the southern spur of Corporation St.
The blindfolded arrogance of this ignorant planning body is far more disturbing to me than some people's perceived motives of private developers.
Everyone knows Manchester Road is a terrible location for the much needed new Bus Station, so if it's in the wrong place when it's built in, say 2014, it sure as hell can form no part of a "seemless train-bus interchange" in 2030. Arrogant and politically minded stubborness in forcing trough the wrong decision will lumber Preston with a bus station which will be prooved to have been built in the wrong place within a decade of the opening ribbon being cut. A complete waste of tax-payers money forced through from the publically employed mental gnomes of LCC.

Well, I always thought a bus station should have been part of the Fishergate Centre redevelopment (if that is ever happening?)

Add an extra level over the existing surface car park and have a bus station either on the lower level and car park above or vice versa. Should be easy enough to provide both good linkage through to Fishergate/town centre within the centre rebuild and a suitable bridge link over the road to the station, removing the awful current zebra crossing. The bridge link could have come down at the current Butler Street entrance or maybe linked over to the main ticket office - with a possible expansion opportunity over the eastern most lines?

I guess as it is a private development and private land, it'd never had much chance or occuring.

A bus station was to be included in the FG2 plans, I think where the drop off is on Butler Street. Obviously FG2 never took off and new plans probably won't happen for some time.

Ahh well... this is Preston after all!

Everton's new stadium plans being rejected by the government due to 'impact on nearby retail areas' doesn't spell good news for the public inquiry into Tithebarn! Also, the recent article in the LEP about the various developments on hold was interesting. I think a number of them will be on hold until a decision on Tithebarn is made. And then may never see the light of day again ;)

Everton's new stadium plans being rejected by the government due to 'impact on nearby retail areas' doesn't spell good news for the public inquiry into Tithebarn! Also, the recent article in the LEP about the various developments on hold was interesting. I think a number of them will be on hold until a decision on Tithebarn is made. And then may never see the light of day again ;)

I read that article - the 'hedgehog' thing at Eastway is super cool!

http://www.bdonline.co.uk/story.asp?storycode=3125607

Definitely one of Preston's best proposed buildings in recent times. Would have preferred it to be in town though. Lets hope it gets built!

I don't know if anyone noticed, but the council's Publicity was released in September. There are quite a few good renders and bits of news if anybody is interested:
http://www.preston-city.com/files/news/PCC%20News%20Autumn%2009.pdf

This one of the ringway building was especially interesting
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/1775/zringway.jpg

The renders are even better on Wood Associates website ;) though renders they will probably remain and never materialise!

For discussion on developments in the third city of North West England.

Back to the start, I'm sorry, north-west's thirs city? Yeah right! Are you joking?

This coming from the man who hails Sheffield has having the best skyline, a little unfair to pick on one member's pride for their city when you are no different! particularly when you've taken something Accura would have posted years ago, I'd imagine!

Well lets see... it was four and a half years ago so its so hard to remember all the way back then! But yes, as I recall, Preston was, and still is the third city of the north west! Yes, thats right. And no, I wasn't joking.

Now, why don't you actually try reinforcing your trollish comment?

Back to the start, I'm sorry, north-west's thirs city? Yeah right! Are you joking?

Also need to learn how to spell.

Last time I saw Sheffield's skyline was partially destroyed in the series "The Last Train" Was a big improvement.

Though, to be fair, the improvements meted out in "Threads" were much better!

Someone else who remembers 'The Last Train'
When I ask people if they remember it they generally look at me blankly!

LOL! It wasn't a bad series either, shame it has never surfaced on DVD.

What do we think of this? Sounds quite real for a Preston proposal!

http://www.lep.co.uk/news/100m-tram-plan.5924921.jp

Im not to sure about this. I cant see how this line would be more viable that the lines that were proposed and then axed in Liverpool and Leeds. Given that those are much larger cities with bigger public transport needs. Also the cost of the scheme would be increased by the need for a bridge over the motorway.

However if it does happen then that would be great, could really help to ease the congestion around Redscar. It would also mean that Deepdale Retail Park is FINALLY served by public transport and a station there could act as a link between teh retail park and Currys/PC World.

A tram line sounds like a great idea, finally some realistic and modern thinking from our time-warped councils!

The timeline and budget dont seem particularly realistic though. Two years is an extremely tight timeline even if it was already approved and fully funded, and lets face it the recent record for developments in Preston hasnt exactly been for meeting deadlines.

It would be superb if it happened, it sounds like they are trying to do something similar to the Parry trial on some disused track in Bristol docks a few years ago.

For all of this to work it needs imagination, belief, private and public investment, but look what Manchester is achieving with the Metrolink extensions so never say never just get the right people to believe in it.

For all of this to work it needs imagination, belief,

That's Preston buggered then.... :bash:

Is there no progression on the Fox Street Student Accomm/ Hotel site? I know it'll have been quiet over the holiday period but since the presence of diggers a few months back there's been no mention of it, do I take it that no news means no change? :(

Yes, ferge there is now some framework going up on the hotel (phase one) and it is due to be finished for autumn. But the student block (phase two) has not started yet as the mission church building has not yet been demolished.

Thought that the church was staying?

Is there no progression on the Fox Street Student Accomm/ Hotel site? I know it'll have been quiet over the holiday period but since the presence of diggers a few months back there's been no mention of it, do I take it that no news means no change? :(

According to the LEP it was on the verge of collapse the other week, purely based on a loose piece of metal blowing out of the site!

Thought that the church was staying?

Apparently, it is being demolished and re-housed at the base of the larger tower.

According to the LEP it was on the verge of collapse the other week, purely based on a loose piece of metal blowing out of the site!

That was unbelievably blown out of proportion, not to mention the most misleading headline ever.

That was unbelievably blown out of proportion, not to mention the most misleading headline ever.

I.e. a typical LEP article! :nuts:

Well, as it is so quiet here, thought I'd add this for interest, particularly given the opposition against this particular retailer from certain quarters. This is sourced from the Telegraph I am afraid, it was the only "independent" source of the story I could easily find!

John Lewis has been voted the country's favourite retailer by customers.

The department store, which also topped the ratings in the service category for the eighth year running, achieved the highest ever score in the annual Consumer Satisfaction Index.

The poll asked 6,000 shoppers to rate stores for their performance in areas such as price, convenience, quality and service.

John Lewis topped the list, followed by the supermarket Waitrose, which is owned by the same company.

Neil Saunders, of Verdict Research, who conducted the poll, said he was not surprised by the result.

"The idea of good service at John Lewis isn't simply a fad dreamt up by management for short-term gain, it's an integral part of the business, supported by an ownership structure which reduces staff turnover and gives partners, at all levels, a real incentive to perform well. The result is an enthusiastic workforce which is knowledgeable about products."

Staff at Waitrose, which is owned by John Lewis, were also celebrating after coming in second despite being knocked off the top spot since last year. The supermarket impressed shoppers with its ambience and layout which both scored top marks.

James Flower, of Verdict Research, said: "Because of the intense competition in the grocery sector and because most people dislike food shopping, it is very difficult for supermarkets to attain high satisfaction scores - Waitrose is the exception and that demonstrates the degree to which it really offers something different and relevant to its customers."

The homeware retailer Dunelm came third in the survey after scoring highly for its extensive range of own-brand merchandise and cheap prices.

Mr Flower said: "This combination of range authority and good prices will be increasingly important in allowing Dunelm to compete against the grocers as they keep expanding into homewares."

Amazon, the internet retailer, came fourth in the poll while Ikea, the Swedish furniture company, was fifth.


Of particular note should be the "price" element, as stated many times, whilst JL does serve the top end of the market, it is down the bottom too. I have bought many items cheaper in JL that equivalents in Preston are currently available, specifically homeware compared to say Debenhams, or clothing compared to say Next etc. Anticipating potential arguments, I don't count Primark or similar as clothing bought there rarely lasts long and is therefore a false economy.

Still, Tithebarn is an unknown issue anyway and more than likely will never happen so it may never be an issue!

Anyway, on other subjects, has anyone seen the Flag Market planning app? It looks to me like the banners are still a part, I can't quite interpret it. Unless there is a host of historic documents in there too.

For anyone who wants to avail themselves of the plans before opposing, the reference number is 06/2010/0003

For anyone that missed it Preston was on Michael Portillo's railway programme the other night.

It's mostly about Blackpool but the first five minutes is about Preston and Preston looks really good in the shots they use:

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00q2p2l/Great_British_Railway_Journeys_Preston_to_Morecambe/

I must admit Michael Portillo has gone up in my estimation, he tries to be positive about every place he visits.

I'll have to try and catch the railway programme, it is on at an inconveniant time.

I was partly wrong about the Flag Market banners, they are non-illuminated ones.

Hi everyone - I am doing a documentary project in Preston which needs archive footage or photographs from the bus station - anything pre 1990's would be ideal.

anyone got any I could use - or know of any i can track down? i'm on ruth@theyeatculture.org

thanks - and get in touch if you want any more info!

Ruth

Hi everyone - I am doing a documentary project in Preston which needs archive footage or photographs from the bus station - anything pre 1990's would be ideal.

anyone got any I could use - or know of any i can track down? i'm on ruth@theyeatculture.org

thanks - and get in touch if you want any more info!

Ruth

There are loads of old ones on flickr.com. A few examples...

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2218/2244273977_a1583dca6b_o.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2328/2244276101_f7963ea32a_o.jpg[img]

[img]http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2348/2245070808_cd82cb19b0_o.jpg

These images are all courtesy of thesquare at flickr.com

:)

thanks accura4matalan - any other takers?

Id say just have a look on flickr. There is one on there which has it before the Guild Hall bridge was built and the taxi rank looks pretty decent!

thanks accura4matalan - any other takers?
Presume you've already contacted BDP Manchester office? Ask me if you interested in other buildings designed by Keith Ingham and I'll see what I can find out.

In about 1974, the noted architectural hisortian Ian Nairn did a BBC TV series on modern architecture and Preston (notably, the new bus station, Guild Hall and Winckley Square) featured heavily. It was repeated in the late 80's which when I remember it from. Check out Ian Nairn and BBC.

Looking forward to seeing Tales From The Blackjack again!

Anyone know anymore about the following and where it is? Cant identify the Church in the background, but the design looks pretty interesting. Was wondering if it is St Ignatius - Seem to remember there is a piece of land that used to have some kind of sheltered housing on it?


http://www.dexigner.com/architecture/news-g19899.html (http://www.dexigner.com/architecture/news-g19899.html)

http://cdx.dexigner.com/news/w/19899.jpg

RCKa Wins Preston Housing Competition
RCKa has been selected as the winner of the Gateway goes for Guild Social Housing competition.

They will work with Community Gateways, Preston's largest housing association to deliver a social housing development in Preston city for occupation in 2012, to coincide with and celebrate Preston Guild 2012.

Preston Guild is a famous and unique celebration with more than 800 years of tradition.

The Guild dates back to the granting of Preston's first Charter by King Henry in 1179.

Linking the city's glorious heritage and past with its ambitions for the future, the Guild is Preston's most important and historic event and is held every 20 years.

The next Guild is in 2012 with the theme of "Innovation and Creativity."

Launched in September 2009, the competition invited Architects to develop innovative design proposals for a social housing development in the centre of Preston, where people would aspire to live.

The winning scheme, with an emphasis on design quality and energy efficiency, was to be a project demonstrating that affordable does not equate to ordinary, and act as an exemplar for future social housing developments in Preston and elsewhere.

Answered my own question - corner of St Pauls Rd and Meadow Street.
Will clean up a grot spot and maybe be the start of improving what has the potential to be a nice little area of town. I believe that the council are thinking of making it a conservation area. Just need to get rid of the god awful 70's social housing which blights the area

RCKa win Preston Housing Competition
January 20th, 2010 by Russell Curtis (russellcurtis)

We’re delighted to announce that we’ve won the prestigious Gateway Goes for Guild housing competition.

Run by the RIBA Competitions Office for Community Gateway Association, the competition attracted 74 entries, and the shortlist of four was announced in November last year.

Our winning scheme, comprising 14 new houses on a tight urban site to the north-east of Preston’s city centre, contains a mix of different unit sizes, with an innovative parking solution allowing an unbroken elevation to the southern boundary, and mews houses along a homezone to the north.

http://blog.rcka.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/RCKa_Preston_Sketch_lores.jpg

Dave Warlow, Community Gateway Association, said:

Throughout the Gateway Goes for Guild competition we have been overwhelmed by the responses and the quality of the submissions sent to us [74 entries].

RCKa have, with their proposal shown a thorough understanding of what we were looking for in this project.

Judges’ comment on RCKa’s proposals

This was a good team presentation from a practice that has relevant experience of housing in the region and a good balance of skills and past track record of working with Registered Social Landlords. The two lead architects both fit the ethos of Community Gateway and the local community and gave a clear indication that they would listen to the local residents and be comfortable working with them. The presentation was very sincere and the team gave the impression that this would be a special project for them.

The panel especially liked the focus on using local consultants and constructors, and the opportunities that the latter would afford for young people in the area to gain apprenticeships and employment. The house plans were well designed and suitable for the BME community, and the team had obviously got a good grasp of the site which was reflected in a well presented analysis. The issue of parking was handled ingeniously by bringing the cars into the garden spaces.

http://blog.rcka.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/0934_Preston_Site_Plan-300x212.png

Would much rather they didnt make it into a conservation area. Bar St Ignatius Sq there isn't much there worth preserving. So long as the mentioned is maintained and the area developed then that would be great. Making it a conservation area would just create a rod to bash developers over the head with. Also those designs are very interesting. Could be an interesting set of buildings to set a president for the area.

I can't say I'm too happy about them making that area a conservation area. I appreciate there are some lovely buildings around there, but there are even more grot spots. For example, that large piece of land on the corner of Ringway and North Road. Its a shame that the Magistrates Chambers proposal never went ahead. That was a quality proposal.

Presume you've already contacted BDP Manchester office? Ask me if you interested in other buildings designed by Keith Ingham and I'll see what I can find out.

In about 1974, the noted architectural hisortian Ian Nairn did a BBC TV series on modern architecture and Preston (notably, the new bus station, Guild Hall and Winckley Square) featured heavily. It was repeated in the late 80's which when I remember it from. Check out Ian Nairn and BBC.

Looking forward to seeing Tales From The Blackjack again!


Hiya Tark - haven't contacted them yet, and yes i am after anything you can get your hands on! i'll call you over the weekend or you could get in touch? cheers, Ruth

also - if anything else surfaces, or if anyone's gotr direct contatcs who may have archive including those related to the film, photography, & historical societies, please do email me on ruth (at) theyeatculture.org

many thanks
Ruth

Never saw the proposal for the Magistrates chambers. Any old pics?

I've just had a scout around for you, but I couldn't uncover anything. The only render I ever recall seeing was a small one from the LEP. The building was three storeys tall which had a roughly oval footprint stretching along North Road coming to a point at either end. The facade was concrete and glass. Real shame that it didn't get built, and even more of a shame that the site is still the eyesore it is today.

couple of construction updates from flickr:

The works ongoing at the site of the Fox Street hotel. This is phase 1:
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4044/4298429333_894216441d_b.jpg

Foundation work has now begun at UCLan's Forensic science building
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4026/4298429803_74600cf53d_b.jpg

thanks to Tony Worral at flickr for those

Yay, major progress on the Fox street site, almost tempted to go and have a gander when it gets a bit further along, hope it becomes quite a prominant addition.

Cheers for the pics. I agree about the site on North Road. For such a prominant site you would have thought that something would have been built there. From the pics of the Bus Stations construction (which fascinate me) it would seem that there were 3 storey Georgian houses there. Shame they went and then replaced with nothing. Guess thats progress.

Shame the origional proposal for Fox Street didnt go ahead. With the proper attention to detail it could have been a real city building. I assume from the trees still being there that they are stepping the building back from the road? I look forward to this one going up. Suprised there is no tower crane for it though. That would have been cool to seen on the skyline!

Whats the progress with the new sports centre? Also anyone been in the School of Architecture part. Would be interested to see how it compares to the facilities here.

http://publicaccess.preston.gov.uk/portal/servlets/ApplicationSearchServlet?PKID=80533
There are some plans of the hotel here. This is something relatively new to the PCC website. It allows you to look at plans (where provided) for all recent and new planning applications.

Whats the progress with the new sports centre? Also anyone been in the School of Architecture part. Would be interested to see how it compares to the facilities here.

The school of architecture has been put on hold for now due to uncertainty over whether government funding will be available or not. The new sports centre is progressing nicely. Foundation works are now well underway, loads of activity every time I walk past.

Cheers for those pics prestonguy, thats a pretty nifty new feature.

Interesting link about the progress (or not) on the Linen Buildings
http://www.lep.co.uk/news/80m-flats-and-store-plan.6010732.jp

Yay, major progress on the Fox street site, almost tempted to go and have a gander when it gets a bit further along, hope it becomes quite a prominant addition.

If recent events are any indication, I'd stand well back when you have a look!

I wouldn't consider buying a house from Garside Waddingham either!

Glad to see that common sense has prevailed. The bus station will not be listed! :banana:

Andrew Mather is giving a lecture on the Square for the Preston Historical Society at Lune St Methodist Church at 7.30pm on Monday 1 Feb. He's illustrating it with about 150 Powerpoint photos, if any one is interested.

Thanks Tark, I will be in Brum that day but appreciate you informing us of such things.

I see that the 19th Century Society, or whatever they are called, are challenging the decision on the bus station.

It is of particular amusement to me as I have been slagged off as a non-resident of Preston* for passing comment on the city, yet when a non-resident of Preston supports the bus station everyone claps their hands and shouts Bravo!


*The fact that it is my nearest major urban centre, where my daughter was born and the place I should be picking first as a shopping and leisure destination appears to count for nothing to some unpleasantly narrow-minded individuals.

City Brand have put up their render of their offering for the proposed BAe sculpture by J31 of the M6.

When a designer makes a really dodgy design, they fold it into a paper dart, then see if they can get it to fly directly into the bin.

This design clearly didn't make it to the bin...

http://riversstream.blogspot.com/2010/02/prestons-paper-dart.html

That is the first time I have looked at your blog Riversider - at least I know why I never bothered before.

Aircraft built in this area that Riversider is ashamed of:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handley_Page_Hampden

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handley_Page_Halifax

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Electric_Lightning

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Electric_Canberra

Let us get something abundantly clear, BAE Systems is not the driving force behind this sculpture, someone in the Preston area inexplicably thinks the region has something to be proud of in its engineering heritage (goodness knows why you'd want to be proud of aircraft used in the defence of this country in World War 2, or be proud of ground breaking technology such as supersonic aircraft. I mean, what a ridiculous thing to do eh?)

In fact, the company was forced to issue the following statement internally:

Today, the Lancashire Evening Post has covered a story regarding a potential Monument to recognise the aerospace industry in the North West.

The article cites that BAE Systems is leading this project. This is not correct. BAE Systems was approached by an ex employee regarding the potential monument and given our strong association with the North West this is obviously of interest, however, we recognise this should involve the whole of industry and not just ourselves.

Terry Burns former councillor and chairman of Lancashire County Council is leading this project and has held a number of exploratory meetings. We have supported these discussions along with other representatives from industry and the North West Aerospace Alliance.

Once a business case is developed we will consider it on its merits. No commitment has been made by BAE Systems.


So, yes, I work for BAE Systems. I am not ashamed. I work on projects supported the armed forces of my country. Anyone who thinks that is a reason to be ashamed can fuck right off out of this country.

I am heartily sick of complete hypocrites like Riversider who clearly oppose and despise BAE (in Riversider's case, clearly despising anyone who works for a living or doing anything that involves the generation of money) and yet have no moral issue living in an area whose current economic make-up has that very industry as a key building block.

City Brand have put up their render of their offering for the proposed BAe sculpture by J31 of the M6.

When a designer makes a really dodgy design, they fold it into a paper dart, then see if they can get it to fly directly into the bin.

This design clearly didn't make it to the bin...

http://riversstream.blogspot.com/2010/02/prestons-paper-dart.html

Jesus... you must really have loved Avatar :|

They could always cantilever it over the motorway. Now THAT would be cool!

I've just heard on good authority that the City Brand link I've posted is NOT the design for the proposed sculpture, but an old design from a few years ago that was already rejected by BAe, as it represented the product rather than the totality of what they do.

The actual design of the proposed sculpture remains a closely guarded secret.

Oh here we go again... closed doors, secrets... The Great Shape-of-Plane-Sculpture-on-Motorway Conspiracy! I wonder what they will think of next to deceive the poor helpless people in Preston! :scouserd:

Just correcting my own mistake Accura. I thought I'd stumbled on the design for the sculpture and had a great scoop, but further checking showed me that nothing is that easy or simple.

But yes, despite all the meetings that have already taken place around this sculpture involving BAe and the North West Aerospace Alliance, the public themselves are being kept in the dark about exactly what Terry Burns (who is leading the project) plans to put there.

the public themselves are being kept in the dark about exactly what Terry Burns (who is leading the project) plans to put there.

Would this be the same "being kept in the dark" as with Tithebarn, when all the public had to go on was the proposed street layout, building elevations, transport studies, footfall modelling, anchor store tenants, cinema tenant, new market layout and everything else that was in the hundreds of pages of documentation hidden away on publicly accesible websites?

Perhaps it might not occur to you that nothing has actually been scoped yet, therefore there is nothing to tell the public other than there is a proposal (not a plan, two totally different things) for a sculpture.


Riversider, a clear case of what happens when a paranoid conspiracy theorist is allowed access to the internet!!

If I was asking people to pay out £2.5m for anything, I'd make sure I at least had something to show them what it was going to look like.

And all that information on the Tithebarn came out very late in the day, after years of meetings, agreements and excuses for delays.

I'm usually very sceptical about conspiracy theories, most of them originate from a special secret department of the CIA who are inventing and disseminating them in order to provide a smokescreen for the real conspirators...

(That's meant to be a joke by the way)

If I was asking people to pay out £2.5m for anything, I'd make sure I at least had something to show them what it was going to look like.

And all that information on the Tithebarn came out very late in the day, after years of meetings, agreements and excuses for delays.
The basic overall masterplan was revealed 10 years ago. I still have the copy of the LEP with it on the front page. That hasn't changed too much compared to what we have today. Then we entered the long and frustrating phase about the bus station... (other towns must really think Preston is a laughing stock) where everyone just basically went in for themself. And surprise surprise... a load of fanboys, most of whom don't live in Preston, and CERTAINLY don't use the bus station are trying to throw a spanner in the works again with the same old debate. Its getting sad now. These kind of attitudes have made me decide that I will be leaving Preston in the next few years.

Same here, Accura. Though not exclusively for that reason, I am moving to Birmingham next month. A city where there is much going on!!

Me as well. (Hopefully) Graduate in summer. Preston is Plan Z! Its a shame the place has trouble keeping people. Its just squandered by people with a total lack of any sort of vison.

When the governors blame the people, is it time to elect a new people?

Taken 12.02.10 evening

http://i324.photobucket.com/albums/k348/Toetallix/NewPrestonBuilding12022010193.jpg

Cheers for that, I love how they have built around the lamp post rather than wait for the lazy buggers at LCC to come and take it down!

When the governors blame the people, is it time to elect a new people?

This isn't the voice of governors though, its people. Sadly the voice of younger people in Preston doesn't seem to be taken seriously, something which may prove to be the ultimate downfall of Preston. The attitude to any kind of change here is so resistant that it presents a very unattractive future. Its very disappointing that its always got to be the over 40's who get the last word. I certainly don't want to stay in the town that is stuck in the 90's. It often feels like people are blinded by nostalgia, patiently waiting for the return of a lifestyle that evaporated completely over 20 years ago.

Where it comes to the bus station, it's really a coalition of the old and the young who wish to keep it, the old because they remember how amazing it was when it was first built, and the young because they do not share their parent's prejudices against 1960s architecture, while it's mainly the middle aged affluent car drivers who want to see the back of it.

BTW, here's a development idea that I think is pretty sound: http://riversstream.blogspot.com/2010/02/yes-to-green-giant-no-to-angel-of-death.html

BTW, here's a development idea that I think is pretty sound: http://riversstream.blogspot.com/2010/02/yes-to-green-giant-no-to-angel-of-death.html

I looked at that for ages before I saw the face, at first I just thought it was a mound, then I saw the hand.

The proposed designs for the various sculptures are now in the public domain. I was right after all about the 'paper dart': http://riversstream.blogspot.com/2010/02/more-views-on-prestons-sculpture-fetish.html

it's mainly the middle aged affluent car drivers who want to see the back of it.


The middle aged affluent car drivers* want to see the back of a 1100 space car park that is well priced and located in the city centre? I'd love to hear the logic behind that argument?

(There is some logic of course, the car park is only served by lifts on one side and therefore does not cater adequately for disabled people on those days when the footbridge is closed. Some people seem to have little or no interest in such groups though, ranking a bit of curved concrete as being more valuable and important. Tithebarn would replace this car park with a larger and more suitable facility, plus a bus station more than capable of maintaining current services and with potential to expand. Oops, bringing reality into the argument again!)

*presumably this is as opposed to the car drivers living in supposedly deprived areas who whine about making ends meet whilst owning cars, having children, smoking branded cigarettes and drinking expensive branded lagers?

BTW, here's a development idea that I think is pretty sound: http://riversstream.blogspot.com/2010/02/yes-to-green-giant-no-to-angel-of-death.html

Hilarious how many people there are who oppose the aircraft sculpture due to military connotations, yet are happy with a sculpture that - er - marks a war. I am grateful to the proposers of these schemes for highlighting hypocrisy!


(Personal view, I am open to both proposals because they both mark Preston history in one form or another - ditch one, ditch both I say)

The key difference is that one glorifies weapons of war, while the other shows the consequences of war.

What both have in common is that they'll cost us £millions and ordinary people will have no say in the matter.

The key difference is that one glorifies weapons of war, while the other shows the consequences of war.

What both have in common is that they'll cost us £millions and ordinary people will have no say in the matter.

I wonder if there were any Riversiders around when the likes of Trafalgar Square were planned? Thankfully not in retrospect.

Glorifying weapons of war - firstly, what a load of utter crap and secondly what a complete and repugnant insult to every aircraft designer and engineer in the region PAST AND PRESENT. Do either show any weapons on the aircraft or any offensive (that's in the military sense not the "ooh the world is against the common man" sense) action? No.

Oh, and I note how you respond to Accura's and Captain Jason's negative stance to Preston as being a comment against the governing body. I don't think it is them they have an issue with...

Glorifying weapons of war - firstly, what a load of utter crap and secondly what a complete and repugnant insult to every aircraft designer and engineer in the region PAST AND PRESENT. Do either show any weapons on the aircraft or any offensive (that's in the military sense not the "ooh the world is against the common man" sense) action? No.

Neatly airbrushed and sanitised Jonh - but we all know exactly what they really represent: imperial might, the power of the state and the military/industrial complex, a reminder of Al Yamamah, Tanzania, East Timor.

You should go to North Korea or Iran, plenty of such lovely militaristic sculptures for you to admire. Strange how we find a certain mindset unacceptable and alien overseas, yet relish it in our own leaders.

Accura and Jason are reflecting the council and vision board's frustration that most ordinary people are utterly sceptical and cynical about any of the crackpot ideas they announce. The reason for this scepticism is years of bitter experience.

Accura and Jason are reflecting the council and vision board's frustration that most ordinary people are utterly sceptical and cynical about any of the crackpot ideas they announce. The reason for this scepticism is years of bitter experience.

That isn't true at all. While I don't agree with everything that the Vision propose, they do have some very good ideas, and in general I believe that they are suggesting to take Preston in the right direction.
My issue is with the general attitude to any kind of change, and people who insist on keeping Preston stuck in a hole. I think that Boris Johnson's article about the people of Liverpool relishing in a victim status is applicable to Preston, creating problems where there are none. An example of this general attitude was demonstrated by you Riversider a few years back. As one of your objections to Riverworks, you said that young people don't want to do watersports, they just want to be traditional and play football. Sadly, a lot of people in Preston seem to share this view, and it should be of no surprise to them that many young people hate living in a place that is constantly dragging itself down.

You should go to North Korea or Iran, plenty of such lovely militaristic sculptures for you to admire. Strange how we find a certain mindset unacceptable and alien overseas, yet relish it in our own leaders.


Ironic that someone with such blatant Communist sympathies should be so negative towards North Korea.

I must assume from your comments that you would support the demolition of such things as Trafalgar Square then? Ultimately, that is a militaristic sculpture after all that binds three of your undoubtably hated groups, i.e. government, royalty and the City. There is a church in London that celebrates the very same RAF you despise. Also there is one that celebrates the RAF in Stratford - my grandpa was responsible for the creation and mounting of the plaque there. Shall we get the bulldozers out for them? Afterall, the RAF represents imperial might, the power of the state and the military/industrial complex doesn't it?

Shall we close down the Royal Naval Museum in Portsmouth and chop up HMS Victory for firewood and scrap HMS Warrior? They are both most certainly icons of imperial might, the power of the state and the military/industrial complex, that is undeniable.

Probably bad examples given that they are mostly down south, but hey, the principle is there.

Accura, the debate over Riverworks is old news, I pointed out that the plans would build over fields currently being used as football pitches by hundreds of local youth. I suggested that more local youth played football than had jetskis and yachts. I know that might sound like a wild generalisation to you, but I'm pretty sure any scientific survey would back me on that.

The fact you are reaching so far back for the merest snippet to try to punch a hole in my argument shows an element of desperation on your part.

JonH, I've no objection to plaques and war memorials that commemorate the dead, these are precious reminders of the reality of war. Nor have I any objection to museums where war can be studied and shown objectively. I'd challenge anyone to visit the Imperial War Museum and not come out sobered and thoughtful.

There's a world of difference between these kinds of memorials to the tragedy of war, and sculptures intended to sanitise and glorify weapons of war.

That isn't true at all. While I don't agree with everything that the Vision propose, they do have some very good ideas, and in general I believe that they are suggesting to take Preston in the right direction.
My issue is with the general attitude to any kind of change, and people who insist on keeping Preston stuck in a hole. I think that Boris Johnson's article about the people of Liverpool relishing in a victim status is applicable to Preston, creating problems where there are none. An example of this general attitude was demonstrated by you Riversider a few years back. As one of your objections to Riverworks, you said that young people don't want to do watersports, they just want to be traditional and play football. Sadly, a lot of people in Preston seem to share this view, and it should be of no surprise to them that many young people hate living in a place that is constantly dragging itself down.


No, it is not applicable to anyone, unless its applicable to everyone, or you're an utter tool. First off, it wasn't Boris Johnson's article, it was grade-a asswipe Simon Heffer who wrote it, unsigned, using the torturing and beheading of Ken Bigley for another of his thinly veiled hate pieces. We're still waiting for him to write about London's victim mentality when no-mark serial shagger Jade Goody's funeral parade was attended by thousands of people in London. You shouldn't listen to right wing shit bags like Heffer.

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Media/Pix/pictures/2009/5/27/1243433322826/Simon-Heffer-001.jpg

No, it is not applicable to anyone, unless its applicable to everyone, or you're an utter tool. First off, it wasn't Boris Johnson's article, it was grade-a asswipe Simon Heffer who wrote it, unsigned, using the torturing and beheading of Ken Bigley for another of his thinly veiled hate pieces. We're still waiting for him to write about London's victim mentality when no-mark serial shagger Jade Goody's funeral parade was attended by thousands of people in London. You shouldn't listen to right wing shit bags like Heffer.

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Media/Pix/pictures/2009/5/27/1243433322826/Simon-Heffer-001.jpg

Most of your points noted. However, the article did make some very valid points about people relishing in non-associated events, effectively taking advantage. The amount of people who used that incident, and were only too happy to get on TV was unbelievable. Its sadly a part of the culture these days, alongside people who cannot take responsibility for their actions. And the article is applicable to everyone, but that doesn't make it right. Anyone can change their ideologies.

And for the record, I did not like the article.

Accura, the debate over Riverworks is old news
And the bus station debate is even older but we're still debating it!

I pointed out that the plans would build over fields currently being used as football pitches by hundreds of local youth. I suggested that more local youth played football than had jetskis and yachts. I know that might sound like a wild generalisation to you, but I'm pretty sure any scientific survey would back me on that.

It reflects an attitude of continuity. Penwortham alone has loads of football pitches, and a lot of them are barely ever used. I know it might seem unbelievable to some within your generation that Prestonians might like something other than football, rugby, eating pies etc, but I think you would be amazed how many youths want to do something other than that. Football has reached a saturation point and its already showing signs of crashing down.

The fact you are reaching so far back for the merest snippet to try to punch a hole in my argument shows an element of desperation on your part.
I'm not trying to punch a hole in your argument, if there is anything that I've learned from debating with you over the years is that you are not willing to see past your own reasoning, so I've given up wasting my time trying. I'm simply giving my own reasoning.

There's a world of difference between these kinds of memorials to the tragedy of war, and sculptures intended to sanitise and glorify weapons of war.

Trafalgar Square and HMS Victory are memorials to the tragedy of war? What a laugh....

And yoshef? Good job on proving Heffer's/Johnson's point. With the exception of the dig at Hillsborough, the article was spot on.

So Jonh, are you arguing for a return to the same values of world domination and imperialism that built Trafalgar Square? Times and attitudes have changed since them, glorying in war and it's weapons has been made distasteful by people's real experience of the truth of war.

So Jonh, are you arguing for a return to the same values of world domination and imperialism that built Trafalgar Square? Times and attitudes have changed since them, glorying in war and it's weapons has been made distasteful by people's real experience of the truth of war.

No, I am wondering why is it so wrong to be proud of the ability of local people and mark it with something that reflects their skills and capability but does not in anyway glorify anything over and above the primary ability, i.e. to fly.

You are clearly completely ashamed of both your country's history AND the skills and capabilities of its residents, who do not just make weapons of war, though I notice that any efforts to educate you on this go ignored, so I'll nto bother any further.

Perhaps we should have been less concerned with world domination back in 1939, I have no doubt whatsoever that you would now be living in a society much more to your taste.

This thread is teetering on the edge of Godwin's law. I suggest we cool it down a little.
I'm quite pleased that BAe do produce several socially useful products. This strengthens rather than weakens my argument that they should shift the balance of their production to socially useful products.
If you knew as much about history as you claim, you'd know that I come from a political tradition that was the first to warn about the dangers of fascism, and the first to meet it in battle. As I say, I can't see a productive debate emerging if we continue to take this thread down that path. Is it worth resorting to jibes about the Nazis in order to get a poxy sculpture built?

If you knew as much about history as you claim, you'd know that I come from a political tradition that was the first to warn about the dangers of fascism, and the first to meet it in battle. As I say, I can't see a productive debate emerging if we continue to take this thread down that path. Is it worth resorting to jibes about the Nazis in order to get a poxy sculpture built?

Considering how anti-fascist you are, you do a very good job of promoting the conditions which led to their rise in Germany.
I really do worry how dangerously close this country is to swinging in an ultra nationalist direction. We are on a knife egde.

Considering how anti-fascist you are, you do a very good job of promoting the conditions which led to their rise in Germany.

Accura, that's just a mad statement. Think about it a little, then withdraw it.

In the meantime can I invoke Godwin's law and ask for this thread to get back onto topic.

socially useful products.

Amuses me that defence of your country does not constitue "socially useful." Perhaps a few more 7/7s are an attractive thought to you.

poxy sculpture

Yeah, why celebrate the skills of local people? Ironic that many of the local people you claim to defend and be the champion of are the very people who actually build these things and WOULD feel pride at seeing it marked in some way.

ask for this thread to get back onto topic

OK. Was on the train with my boss yesterday (standard class, cheapest fares) and the converstation reached the topic of Tithebarn, having just discussed the regeneration in the centre of Wigan.

My boss is a decent type, family man, church warden, pillar of the community etc, etc. His words were "I wish they'd get on and do Tithebarn, Preston is such a total hole."

Took a while for me to stop laughing, (such a comment seemed quite out of character, hence my description earlier), before engaging in a sensible discussion. This included why the bus station and the car park is not fit for purpose (which it is, unless there is a cheap and easy way of cutting new lift shafts), oversized (which it is, despite numerous high frequency services) and should be demolished (we live in ever unlikelier hope). Like me, he has experience of being a regular user of the facility.

His view, like a lot of openminded people, was that TB has a large catchment, including outside of the nearby idiots like Blackburn etc who prefer to spend ratepayers money on holding back neighbours rather than spending it on their won communities. This catchment probably currently visits Manchester/Liverpool on a regular basis as well as some to Preston occasionally. I made the point that TB would increase the footfall in the city to encourage the likes of the Harris and Museum of Lancs to open on Sundays, thus providing a bigger offer than the shops, cinema and restaurants. That would knock onto the likes of Winckley Square (which is on course to remain the squalid little puddle it currently is due to a lack of open-mindedness and a clear resistance to making the park more accessible to less able members of the community - a disgusting reflection on certain Prestonians who clearly rate iron railing as more important than disabled people) and the two parks and the riverside.

But not to worry. TB will not happen and all these people will keep on going to Manchester/Liverpool etc, and not bring anything to Preston at all.



Incidently, the "Nazi" jibe (your words NOT mine) was not the point. A pity you didn't get it.