Accura, that's just a mad statement. Think about it a little, then withdraw it.

You are constantly calling for a system of proportional representation in the decision making of new developments, something which was a very heavy contributing factor to the downfall of the Weimar Republic, and something which layed the foundations for the entry of extreme parties such as the SDP due to the frustration of people that things were not getting done.

Think about that Riversider the next time you say 'let the people decide', and remember that 'the people' are not a single voice.

The reality is that Tithebarn will not get built in the form it is proposed, not because of any opposition from Preston people, or the formalities of a public enquiry, but because it is already overtaken by events.

It was designed at a time when the retail sector was expanding, when credit seemed limitless, and when prime ministers could go round predicting 'the end of boom and bust' and not be mocked mercilessly.

Those days are gone, and will not come back.

Today the retail sector is declining, 1 in 5 shops lie empty in Preston. The public sector which is keeping Preston's economy on life support faces massive cuts over the next few years.

No sane organisation would build an outlandishly huge development like Tithebarn under these conditions.

The developers have a very long lease on the land, thanks to our council's starry eyed generosity. They will be in no rush to build anything, with or without the inquiry.

When they do eventually get round to building something, it will be on nothing like the scale of the Tithebarn proposals.

Our council, and Blackburn, are chucking public money into the lawyers mouths for absolutely nothing, except to give the developers convenient excuses for further delays.

Accura, I don't think I've ever mentioned Proportional Representation in any of my posts.

Maybe you're confusing me with the Liberal Democrats?

I do however think PR had very little to do with the rise of the Nazis in Germany, which probably had much more to do with a humiliating post war settlement and a disastrous crisis of capitalism which saw raging inflation in the Weimar republic, with the German ruling class seeing the NSDAP as a convenient instrument to rain blows onto the German working class movement, along with the failure of the SPD and KPD to unite against the fascists, until it was far too late.

Can we please talk about something else now.

The public sector which is keeping Preston's economy on life support faces massive cuts over the next few years.

I think you'll find other industries are helping do that as well, for example one largish one based to the east and west of the city that supports a whole host of other companies that would reduce or disappear if it did.

When they do eventually get round to building something, it will be on nothing like the scale of the Tithebarn proposals.

You are mistaken. What you should have said is:

When they do eventually get round to building something, it will be nothing.

The reality is that Tithebarn will not get built in the form it is proposed, not because of any opposition from Preston people, or the formalities of a public enquiry, but because it is already overtaken by events.

It was designed at a time when the retail sector was expanding, when credit seemed limitless, and when prime ministers could go round predicting 'the end of boom and bust' and not be mocked mercilessly.

Those days are gone, and will not come back.

This is probably true. However, Preston's retail offer is severely outdated now due to pretty much zero development in recent years. FG2 or Tithebarn would have contributed massively, but neither have got off the ground yet. Tithebarn or no Tithebarn, Preston's metro population is set to grow a lot in the next 20 years or so. Eventually, something similar to Tithebarn, if not the development itself will happen. The economy will dictate that.

Today the retail sector is declining, 1 in 5 shops lie empty in Preston.
The retail sector has started growing again.

The developers have a very long lease on the land, thanks to our council's starry eyed generosity. They will be in no rush to build anything, with or without the inquiry.
The developers have no lease on the land. The only thing truly under developer control is the St Johns Centre which is owned by Grosvenor. Everything else is in private or council ownership.

Our council, and Blackburn, are chucking public money into the lawyers mouths for absolutely nothing, except to give the developers convenient excuses for further delays.
Can't argue with your point about Blackburn, but I think it would be stupid of Preston CC to give up now purely because Blackburn don't like it.

With regards to discussion about Germany in the 1920's, agreed lets leave it at that :)

Eventually, something similar to Tithebarn, if not the development itself will happen. The economy will dictate that.


Yes, but what will be developed? To effect any significant redevelopment of Preston you have to overcome the huge expanse of land taken up by an oversized bus station. Without taking that down, you are reduced to piecemeal bits and bobs.

Tithebarn and FG2 would compliment each other to ensure the city's retail offer does not skew towards one area. (Though with Debenhams in FG and John Lewis and a larger M&S in TB, I don't know who would realistically come in to the extra department store in FG) The FG end of the city is currently protected well by proximity to the rail station and the FG car park, ensuring significant footfall. In fact, this is where having the bus and rail stations at opposite ends of town does serve some purpose - what is needed is a suitable link between the two. This would need to be coupled with a sensible level of rates to encourage new retailers (chain and independent) to open and discourage as far as possible retailers simply moving to the new developments. M&S might be an exception here to shift the old M&S feel of their store once and for all, something the retailer seems incapable of acheiving in older stores.

If Tithebarn doesn't go ahead, Preston will be the ultimate loser. we are already seeing the market struggling due to people starting to stay away, though the efforts to blame TB are amusing to see. The PEOPLE are making the choice here, no-one else.

^ Agree completely. If things don't happen in the not-too-distant future, and in the correct manner, its Preston that will lose out.

With regards to FG2, I think preston guy said a while back that Next were supposed to be the anchor with a 3-storey department store. Now they have taken space in the former Woolworths store, I doubt that will happen.

The new Forensics school
http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/6944/photo0382u.jpg

http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/2064/photo0381.jpg

The Sports Centre
http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/4039/photo0380.jpg

With regards to FG2, I think preston guy said a while back that Next were supposed to be the anchor with a 3-storey department store. Now they have taken space in the former Woolworths store, I doubt that will happen.

No, they are unlikely to move again. Plus with large stores north and south of Preston, they are unlikely to need further floor space, unless they really want to emulate the Manchester Arndale store with the home section.

There are also now hoardings on the front of the Woolworths store and signs saying it is a construction site. Fingers crossed that includes a second floor, it would be ridiculous to have the city centre store smaller than those on the retail parks.

Hmmm, the Woolworths store does have quite a large footprint on the ground floor. I think adding an extra floor would require significant expense and construction.

Mind you, Next wedge everything close together no matter how large the store is!

Where's your vantage point from Accura? I'm well confused :|

I thought where you're at there was a surface car park, you can't be that tall! It's not Darwin or Fosters, I'm just trying to remember what's in between.. Leighton? (Thinking that was what was demolished when I was there).

Leighton Building, top floor of the staircases at both ends of the building, the science block, not the student halls :) I think the car park you're thinking of is where the Forensics block is being built.

http://www.lep.co.uk/businessnews/23m-39cafe-quarter39-for-Preston.6129751.jp

Some of you may have seen this, but for those which haven't.....

Talk about disheartening reading the 'typical' comments.. Always nice to get a biased response to news by reading the LEP comments, they sound so alike the WEP commenters (Wigan Evening Post! :|)

It's not a Uni, its a Polytechnic.. and its ruining the vibrancy and diversity of the city! :| okay then..

http://www.lep.co.uk/businessnews/39Heritage-extremists39-damaging-city.6134441.jp

Should put the lion in the chicken coop!

In fairness to the LEP regular commentors, I think even they were mostly pretty shocked by the campaign to list the bus station. That is how poor the argument to save it really is!

With regards to Winckley Square... its a bit of an odd one. Its jewel in Preston, but it does need to change. People really need to wake up to the fact that Winckley Square is a bit of a ghost town, and needs to be reformed to attract more life.

http://www.lep.co.uk/businessnews/39Heritage-extremists39-damaging-city.6134441.jp

Should put the lion in the chicken coop!

I wonder who that sole grumbler (as of yet) known only as 'River' is :|

I wonder who that sole grumbler (as of yet) known only as 'River' is :|

As if you need to ask!

usual idiotic ravings about secrecy and how everything is against the "little man"

Never, of course, any alternative proposals. River(sider) is all talk (anti only)and virtually nothing else.

Either we're 'all talk' or we are this major obstacle to development that McKenna accuses us of being - can't really be both can we?

The truth is he credits us with far more power than we have in reality.

The truth is it is the council and the developers that have failed and are continuing to fail to develop Preston properly. They are just looking for scapegoats for their own failure, and those local people who care enough about the city to stand up for it have been identified by McKenna as convenient scapegoats.

As if you need to ask!

usual idiotic ravings about secrecy and how everything is against the "little man"

Never, of course, any alternative proposals. River(sider) is all talk (anti only)and virtually nothing else.


I read both the LEP and WEP online comments and quite frankly you could take them all their posts, swap them to the other paper and you'd not notice any difference. Same few people saying the same narrow comments about absolutely everything going on in our local areas. It's either they don't want something, or it's a government conspiracy! strange that..

Either we're 'all talk' or we are this major obstacle to development that McKenna accuses us of being - can't really be both can we?
I think that Jon was referring to the constant suggestions of conspiricies and city leaders ignoring democracy, despite absolutely no evidence at all.

The truth is he credits us with far more power than we have in reality.
People complaining have the potential to hold up developments for years, often resulting in them never happening. For example, about 10 people objected to construction of better parking facilities at RPH because it would hinder the view from their front rooms. The project was resubmitted (more than once I think), however it never took off because of the consistent objections. This happening despite the fact that it would have greatly improved a bad situation at a facility that serves hundreds of thousands of people.

The truth is it is the council and the developers that have failed and are continuing to fail to develop Preston properly. They are just looking for scapegoats for their own failure
The council's strategy for redeveloping Preston, isn't perfect, but it is a long way from being wrong. The redevelopment strategy is more or less spot on, its just been held back by numerous tiers of consultation.

and those local people who care enough about the city to stand up for it have been identified by McKenna as convenient scapegoats.
Yep, they really care. Constructive criticism is fine, but objecting for the sake of objecting is just sad. I don't buy the populist bullshit about them being the true voice of Preston, if they really cared about their town/city they would not be holding it back.

I think that Jon was referring to the constant suggestions of conspiricies and city leaders ignoring democracy, despite absolutely no evidence at all.


I was indeed. The problem with Riversider is that if you provide any genuine evidence of anything or press him for alternative solutions, then you are either ignored or the subject is changed.

If you're right about River, jonh, I think this is Mr McKenna calling his bluff:

http://www.downtownpreston.com/citythinking/index.php

Mind you, I think the aforementioned former LCC deputy leader would plead guilty to being "a development extremist" because, let's be honest, if anywhere's in need of 'extremist development', it's Preston!

Yes, coatesieboy, I am awaiting River(sider)'s response with.......well......very little anticipation actually as I think I can fully predict what it'll be!!!

Nice to be seen as reliable and consistent.

I actually think it's a pretty good idea to ask the people what they want for the future of their own city.

Here's my full response: http://riversstream.blogspot.com/2010/03/revolutionary-idea-ask-preston-people.html

Haha! Good, old, River.

Interesting question, "he" says, good point, "he" says, and then goes on to answer "his" own question - and have a good, old moan in the meantime!

Well, the gauntlet's there.......

Link to coatsie's article at the LEP regarding the police station:

http://www.lep.co.uk/news/Expolice-station-to-become-student.6162112.jp#5048807

Despite the usual parade of moaners, doesn't sound so bad! An extra 2-storeys plus another 2 buildings. Sounds like they plan to make some significant changes. They did a fantastic job on the BR building, hopefully this will be the same success story :)

Parade of moaners is a polite way of putting it!! Parade of morons would be better in many cases.

More shocking today was this;

http://www.lep.co.uk/news/Stunned-staff-knocked-for-six.6162318.jp

Whilst I would happily welcome a Waitrose to the area, surely this is not the right location at all? The ten pin bowling alley, whilst old and creaky, is popular and should be kept.

I've gotta say I agree on that. Like yourself, I would love to see Waitrose come to Preston, but the bowling alley is one of the few things to do in Preston during the evening that doesn't involve getting wasted. While it does attract a lot of the local chavs, it does give them something to do that doesn't involve being a nuisance to residents. Somehow, I doubt a Waitrose will fulfill that task.

Well, there is an exhibition being held about the plans today and tomorrow in Frankie & Benny's function room. 2:30pm to 6:30pm today, 10am to 2pm tomorrow. Going to head down this afternoon and have a look at the plans and express my delight at the potential for the store and my reservations about the location.

If your going down any chance of some pics? Would be interesting to see what they are doing.

As for the moaners, typical Preston!!

Accura and Jonh, grimly defending an out of date bowling alley when you could have a wonderful shiny new Waitrose! No wonder Preston is still in the dark ages with such heritage extremists in its' midst. You should really keep your noses out of such matters, and leave it all to the experts, who know what is good for your town far better than you do...

Accura and Jonh, grimly defending an out of date bowling alley when you could have a wonderful shiny new Waitrose! No wonder Preston is still in the dark ages with such heritage extremists in its' midst. You should really keep your noses out of such matters, and leave it all to the experts, who know what is good for your town far better than you do...

City!

Come on we have been one since 2002...

Nobody winces when cockneys say 'London Town'. It actually says a lot that some people are so chippy about our 'city' status.

Accura and Jonh, grimly defending an out of date bowling alley when you could have a wonderful shiny new Waitrose! No wonder Preston is still in the dark ages with such heritage extremists in its' midst. You should really keep your noses out of such matters, and leave it all to the experts, who know what is good for your town far better than you do...

:lol:

Nimbyism is far more acceptable here in South Ribble ;)

Yes but people use the old "Preston is a TOWN" as a put down of the place.

Also in further news..

http://www.lep.co.uk/travel/230m-tram-plans-for-central.6168969.jp

Anyone thing it will happen. I cant see the lines to Ormskirk and Chorley happening due to the fact that its pretty well served by buses and trains. However I would love to see the Deepdale one built! However I question the idea of it going to RPH. Surely it would be better going to Redscar and then (if they can manage it somehow) to Longridge.

CC > PNE > Preston college > RPH.

Or...

CC > PNE > Retail Park > Red Scar > Grimsargh > Longridge.

Surely the latter would make much much more business sense!

CaptainJason,

I did get a handout. Picture-wise, it had little more than a render of the ten-pin bowling building with a glass lobby extension on the front.

Apparantly, the bowling alley is set to close anyway as it is losing money. My experience of the place was a Friday, so my presumption of it being popular was based on speculation and personal opinion rather than facts. Need to be careful, I'll turn into Riversider following that behaviour. Then again, as Riversider doesn't even know where the boundaries of Preston are, what hope have we got!!

If the bowling alley is failing, then I guess a change is inevitable. Its still a shame to lose a leisure facility.

Glad to hear that the tram idea is progressing. I might give Trampower an email and see if they have anything for release.

I apologise for the 'Central Lancashire City/Greater Prestonism' displayed by suggesting Megabowl is in Preston!

The tram idea is great, but don't ask me to hold my breath. Lots of politicians will have to eat lots of buffets before that ever sees the light of day.

It will never see the light of day as the Government in this country have no intrest in public transport infrastructure unless it in London (and if it plays nice Manchester). We can dream though. Also there on the wrong track with where they are proposing the lines.

It will never see the light of day as the Government in this country have no intrest in public transport infrastructure unless it in London (and if it plays nice Manchester). We can dream though. Also there on the wrong track with where they are proposing the lines.

Agreed. The routes they are proposing are ridiculously complicated. They should keep it simple by utilising the fantastic network of disused lines we have in Preston.

Here is how I would do it:

Focal point: the current Network Rail yard in Preston city centre. The sidings there only ever seemed to be used by a couple of maintenance units, which could easily be rehoused at the recently reopened sidings where Royal Mail at the station used to be. This gives good access to the three lines which should be reopened...

Line One: Preston to J31a
I think we all know how this one works as its been discussed many times before. Running along the former Longridge line, perfect for serving the uni, Deepdale Road (very dense housing areas), Skeffington Road (PNE), Blackpool Road (Deepdale Retail Park), Gammull Lane, and a park and ride with the M6 at Courtaulds.

Line Two: Preston to Lostock Hall
From the city centre running in alongside Preston station, partly in the former tunnel that led to the part of the station where the Fishergate centre now sits, emerging near the new car park and heading towards the East Lancashire Railway cutting. A station on the bridge that goes over Avenham Park, then continuing down the old line to serve the new communities developing at Walton Park, Bee Lane, and that new housing estate just off Leyland Road. Continuing to run down the disused line to serve the Brownedge Road area before terminating at a park and ride next to the very busy roadways near Sainsbury's.

Line Three: Preston to the Docks
You know the story... either building a new tunnel under Preston station or using the one that emerges in the county hall car park, running along the Dock line to a
park and ride near the busy road at Preston Motor Park.

Chorley? Ormskirk?

lol...

Dont you think that with trams that if they end up running through fields then they should really think about if they are needed?

Dont you think that with trams that if they end up running through fields then they should really think about if they are needed?

Not really it becomes more a Light rail / Metro then similar to Newcastle's system.

I agree with Accura, better to utilise the existing disused track bed and link them up where possible to try and create a system that way.

Good news about Zara in todays LEP:

http://www.lep.co.uk/news/Top-fashion-store-eyes-key.6201453.jp

Btw, if anyone fancies doing my survey, I'd be super grateful!
http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/buyerbehavioursurvey

Btw, if anyone fancies doing my survey, I'd be super grateful!

Done!
Please check your PMs mate.

Also done, though I had to answer a number textually as making individual choices was not possible. For example, how I choose to shop for groceries will vary from how I shop for clothes or electrical goods etc.

As an aside, we visited Bristol at the weekend and made use of their Cabot Circus development, an area similar in principle to Tithebarn as it contains shops and leisure facilities. Whilst there, we used the very nice cinema and on two separate night ate in restaurants there. Even after the shops shut, the restaurants/bars and cinema were lively and bustling with a varied crowd of families and weekend revellers. I looked at my wife and said "This is what many Prestonians don't want" and we rolled our eyes in quiet amusement.

I must admit I failed to notice any bus station arrangments, but buses, taxies, cycles facilities and water buses were plentiful whether one existed or not.

I have also done it...

With the Cabot Circus thing cue Riversiders "Only for the rich, social cleansing etc" How well does Cabot Circus tie in with the rest of the city centre?

In Liverpool and thats exactly what I think when I visit Liverpool One, which is also a similar idea to Tithebarn. I love the fact that it encourages people to go into the city centre even when the shops have shut to do things other than get pissed! This benefits not just Liverpool One but the centre as a whole. Infact its strange when you imagine that just afew years ago it wasnt there!

I also did the survey for you :)

With the Cabot Circus thing cue Riversiders "Only for the rich, social cleansing etc" How well does Cabot Circus tie in with the rest of the city centre?

Indeed, either that or a comment on "glorified shopping centres" whereby I'll comment on that fact that I went into 0 shops!! Plus, as far as I could tell, there were people from all social classes in the centre.

It integrates well, the main entrances we used ran directly off existing streets and were open, thefore there was no feel that it was particularly segregated. Plus the rest of the city centre seemed to be active and busy

In Liverpool and thats exactly what I think when I visit Liverpool One, which is also a similar idea to Tithebarn. I love the fact that it encourages people to go into the city centre even when the shops have shut to do things other than get pissed! This benefits not just Liverpool One but the centre as a whole. Infact its strange when you imagine that just afew years ago it wasnt there!

The other thing with L1 is how it has opened the city centre up to Albert Dock and the massive increase in footfall to the latter as a result.

Cheers to everyone who did the survey. If you have any family members or friends who would be willing to do it, that would be great as I still need another 25 responses :)

Tark, I'm going to get your photo's done today. Sorry about the delay. The university equipment loans shop was closed over Easter.

Hi all! I was posted this forum by a colleague of mine as I work in the construction professional services industry in Preston. Set up last August on the docks.

I found this forum very interesting as I like most are trying to push for Preston to be re-generated. It is quickly losing out in its appeal to people!

Anyway, just wanted to post and say hello! I look forward to keeping in touch

muckerg! :)

Welcome to the forum muckerg :) I now live in Birmingham but still follow the forum so you'll have to keep myself and the others updated! Any info is always welcome!
Preston Guy

Hi all! I was posted this forum by a colleague of mine as I work in the construction professional services industry in Preston. Set up last August on the docks.

I found this forum very interesting as I like most are trying to push for Preston to be re-generated. It is quickly losing out in its appeal to people!

Anyway, just wanted to post and say hello! I look forward to keeping in touch

muckerg! :)

Welcome to the boards. Unfortunately you have joined us at a bit of a low point in activity, but hopefully things should start picking up again soon, and hopefully we will see some construction this time round! :)

The failure of Preston City Vision Board to succeed with any form of development in our city is bordering on the scandalous Muckerg.

The failure of Preston City Vision Board to succeed with any form of development in our city is bordering on the scandalous Muckerg.


Yaaawwwwwwwnnn.....

:lol:

I am due to meet up with Preston Vision next week! Any questions you wish me to ask?

No nasty ones obviously! :lol:

I am due to meet up with Preston Vision next week! Any questions you wish me to ask?

No nasty ones obviously! :lol:

What future does Tithebarn really have? Unlike others, I would like to see it come to fruition but am increasing suspecting it never will.

I know someone from the one of the big business group. He reckons that something will happen even if its not Tithebarn. However one thing is certain in his mind. Thats that the bus stations days are numbered.

I know someone from the one of the big business group. He reckons that something will happen even if its not Tithebarn. However one thing is certain in his mind. Thats that the bus stations days are numbered.

Hmmm, wonder what "something" might be. Personally, I'd keep the Tithebarn masterplan and break it up among developers if that is what is needed to keep it alive. Otherwise, we get individual developers off doing their own things and it all gets very disjointed, not to mention the additional time to redesign.

Breaking up the development might make it easier to "phase" the development.

So long as the uneccesarily oversized bus station is going. :)

http://www.worthingtons.co.uk/project_corporation_street.html
Finally a glimpse of phase 2 of the Fox St/Corporation St hotel and student accommodation project

Thats a pretty shoddy sketchup model!

Thats a pretty shoddy sketchup model!
Lol, not the best but at least it gives an idea of the kind of thing that should be put up there.

Well I hope that all readers of the "Preston" thread take their liberty to vote on Thursday.
I also hope that when standing with pencil in hand inside the privacy of the polling booth, I'm not alone in recalling how utterly useless Mark Hendrick has proven himself year after year in standing up for Preston and its best interests. Of all the people I've met in my 46 years, he's certainly been in the bottom 5% of folk I'd care to see again.
Just my opinion, like.

Riversider (http://pne-online.net/forum/member.php?u=6462)
Transfer Target

Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 15
Jonathan Franks set to join

Good evening from the North East,

I am a Boro fan and have been for the past 40 years. Over that time i've gained some pretty decent friends and now can find out anything before anybody about the club.

I just thought i'd let you guys know that Jonathan Franks has been in talks with you since mid-March and is pretty much nailed on, just needs the paperwork to get done and signed when the transfer window opens. I believe the fee is £600,000 + clauses.

We're losing a brilliant player in my opinion, and will go all the way to the top, on club and international level.

Good luck throughout next season and beyond,

Riversider


From PNE_online. :) Now we know why his opinions on the future of Preston sometimes seem "over the hills!!!" :nuts:

Well I hope that all readers of the "Preston" thread take their liberty to vote on Thursday.


I certainly will, abeit in South Ribble - what's left of it. They way things are going though, I'll still be scratching my head in indecision when I am in the booth!!

It's a different Riversider I'm afraid, though I am a Boro fan.

It's a different Riversider I'm afraid, though I am a Boro fan.

Yeah, I guessed as much, in truth. Actually, it turned out that "Riversider" was a Blackpool fan on a wind-up on the PNE messageboard! It just amused me to see the same username.

I'm not alone in recalling how utterly useless Mark Hendrick has proven himself year after year in standing up for Preston and its best interests.

Looks like you were fairly well alone there Tark. :ohno:

Ditto, very disappointing results. Still, interesting times ahead.

I was pretty sure Hendrick would get back in, but then it was a fairly depressing election result all round.

Ditto, very disappointing results. Still, interesting times ahead.

Checking on what actually counts as Preston for the seat its a pretty random selection. Part of South Ribble but not all of Preston. Very odd.

I'm gonna head down to the derelict Longridge line a bit later on to see if I can get any pics of the works that have (apparently!) already begun to convert it to a demonstrator tram line. I'll also try and grab some of the other stuff going on around town.

I'm gonna head down to the derelict Longridge line a bit later on to see if I can get any pics of the works that have (apparently!) already begun to convert it to a demonstrator tram line. I'll also try and grab some of the other stuff going on around town.

Nice one Accura, I'll be very interested in having a nose at any pictures on this project.

I'm going to try and force myself out of bed early tomorrow, so I'll go and take a few snaps.

I'm going to try and force myself out of bed early tomorrow, so I'll go and take a few snaps.

I look forward to seeing them, Accura. I was back in Preston for a day last week and noticed a couple of small changes and the new hotel coming along (new hoardings declaring it opens in the Autumn).

And so the Tithebarn Inquiry begins. This should be interesting. Cue overly-dramatic LEP headlines.

Cue overly-dramatic LEP headlines.

More entertaining is the idiocy from the anti-Tithebarn brigade. (Preston! Backward NOT EVER Forward! being their slogan)

Most entertaining input is of course from our beloved Riversider who claimed that moving the bus station to a location with easier access to the town centre is an effort to exclude working class people from Preston!! This was followed up by another poster who ridiculed Tithebarn for doing nothing but bringing "a few" minimum wage jobs to Preston. I guess Home Bargains and Poundland must be in the top quartile of retail pay.... :)

Who knows, maybe the inquiry will go the way of the open minded brigade. In the meantime, I enjoyed a trip to Liverpool on Sunday where I could combine shopping with visiting museums and galleries, cannot do that in Preston now that the Football Museum has gone and the Tourist Info Office is closed on Sundays, preventing finding if there is anywhere else in the centre!

My argument around Tithebarn is considerably more subtle than that Jonh - it's that if the whole thing had been designed with local Preston people's involvement all those years ago, we'd have come up with a far more workable and deliverable scheme, and would be already enjoying the benefits of it now, instead of having to wait, wait, wait as developers find excuses for delay after delay after delay while the scheme lands the rest of the city with planners blight. Latest date for the scheme is 2018, what we'll actually get will be anybody's guess.

I agree with you about our Football Museum, we were stabbed in the back by its board, and utterly failed by our civic leaders.

My argument around Tithebarn is considerably more subtle than that Jonh - it's that if the whole thing had been designed with local Preston people's involvement all those years ago, we'd have come up with a far more workable and deliverable scheme,

Which would look like what? What would "local" people have come up with? Examples please, with diagrams if possible. Such things must exist given your vocal promotion of them over the years.

I agree with you about our Football Museum, we were stabbed in the back by its board, and utterly failed by our civic leaders.

I don't recall saying anything much worthy of agreement, I simply stated it has closed. It will get many more visitors in Manchester and I suspect it will actually have just as much publicity as it did in Preston. Bus adverts, inclusion in match day programes, advertising in local papers, full details easily available on the Internet, advertising in the Tourist Info Centre when it IS open. These are all places I have seen the museum advertised with my own eyes. I have been several times myself, even when it was charging entry fees. The failure was simple - People did not want to go to it in it's location. Yet, to the likes of you, it is always the fault of someone else!!!

I agree with you about our Football Museum, we were stabbed in the back by its board, and utterly failed by our civic leaders.
How? The campaign to save the museum was one of the few occasions where PCC and LCC actually worked together!

This year's season of North Lancashire Society of Architecture's Design & Wine Lectures wrapped up with the Sir George Grenfell Baines Memorial Lecture in the Darwin Building at UCLan tonight. Last year's GGB Lecture was given by Eva Jaricna and for this, it was given by Jonathan Glancey, currrently architecture critic for The Guardian but pehaps best known as a former editor of Architectural Review, a founder of Blueprint and handy TV pundit whenever architecture appears on The Late Show or some such.
It was a very well researched and delivered lecture with its emphasis on Preston. All you guys would have been interested in what he had to say, not least his criticisms of The Tithebarn, L1 and arguments for the retention of the Bus Station, though significantly not as a bus station. Like everone who is not an LCC planner, he knows it should be integral with the Railway station.
Those of you with an interest in architecture should get in touch with the NLSA, and see who is coming to town from next Autumn, and try and get along to some of the lectures to broaden your views on what's going on in the world of architecture.

Like everone who is not an LCC planner, he knows it should be integral with the Railway station.

Why?

Once, I would have agreed, however giving some thought it makes no sense. Surely it would be better to have people coming in by public transport to come in a different ends of town, thus spreading potential footfall? Some buses already integrate with the rail station by stopping outside, for those that don't, we could follow Manchester's example with a free Metroshuttle.

It is obvious that the new bus station location could do much for Miller Arcade by increasing footfall past it, which the current uneccesarily oversized bus station and surroundings don't readily allow.

Following the logic of the above, we should close all car parks and build one huge multistorey at one end of town!

I don't know why people make such a big deal out of it, although it makes sense the distance really isn't that far (people are always saying how small Preston is). I agree having a bus station close to the train station would be ideal but it appears that will never happen. Perhaps the land behind the now closed Japanse restaurant could have been utilised however, the absurdity of the ring road would probably make that impossible. I give up! A main bus station and perhaps a smaller terminal/interchange closer to the train station would be the best option I think.

On a positive note, lots going on in my new home of Birmingham. I can see everything from the Mailbox, Radisson tower and Rotunda across and into the distance from my apartment and there are new buildings popping up all over the place (although some of them appear to be 'on hold' due to the financial climate). But then again, Brum has the added bonus of not being located next to Blackpool and Blackburn. Has anyone been seriously injured by their spat-out dummies?

Has anyone been seriously injured by their spat-out dummies?

No, but it would be interesting to see how they can sustain the argument of Preston taking visitors away from Blackpool. Given that everyone, the local council included, is singing about how many more visitors they will get as a result of Blackpool being in the Premier League.

Well it's dog eat dog at the moment. But at least Tithebarn is doing it by the book with the public inquiry. I am fairly confident it will be passed. Hopefully it will actually happen in some shape or form. And Blackpool may also enjoy benefits of their new Premier League status and will hopefully stop being so childish. That won't do much for the rest of the objectors, however. Although most people objecting the scheme seem to be Prestonians themselves. Bizarre. Why didn't they object to the real monstrosities the city has seen, such as the Ring Road and demolition of many of it's most wonderful buildings?

Why didn't they object to the real monstrosities the city has seen, such as the Ring Road and demolition of many of it's most wonderful buildings?

But they are! They are protesting the demolition of the bus station, which IS Preston's greatest building!! :lol:

To sum up, rather than new shops, public spaces, restaurants and apartments (which could contribute to reversing the anti-family atmosphere in Preston of an evening - which the same people ALSO moan about, LOL), with the associated increase in jobs* AND visitors to the town, they want to retain an oversized bus station and massively underused car park that probably does not comply to current disability legislation.

*offensively dismissed as all being dead end retail jobs by an idiot poster in the LEP. One of those who thinks everything should be served on a plate no doubt! For the avoidance of there is no such thing as a dead end job, any job is a career it is up to the individual in that job to make it so! Not the case if you believe union types etc.

Thats absolute rubbish what that poster said about retail. I did a degree in it ffs. Its one of the most employable sectors to go into.

Quite agree Accura. I only did one module relating to retail at university (Lancaster) one of my biggest regrets is that I didn't do more.

Interestingly, the poster has not responded to my query of their current career. Much like Riversider, when any "meaty" questions are asked, total silence falls...

In fact, Riversider remains an oddity. Constantly claiming to be the "champion" of the working class, yet opposes the plans that would bring opportunities to that very group, including potential for career development...

I'm sure to you property boys this will be nothing away from the norm, but sounds as if Preston are getting their ducks in a row before bidding for money - rather than the other way round.

Even Riversider's commended it: http://www.lep.co.uk/news/lep-business/kickstart_for_key_city_gateway_site_1_778791

What's with the 'even'?

Yeh, I noticed that yesterday and forgot to post it. I'm glad to see that we're getting our house in order before talking the talk. I'm glad to see that the authorities have learned lessons from the Tithebarn saga.

Cheers for posting that coatsie. I'd forgot to post it yesterday. Nice to see that the authorities have learnt lessons from Tithebarn and are getting their house in order.

What's with the 'even'?
You were positive about something being mooted for Preston - it rarely happens. And my negativity on the article probably stemmed from having read the mosque article elsewhere and seeing what "real" Prestonians are really all about. (Sadly there isn't a being sick smiley that I can see)

Still a deafening silence on alternative proposals for Tithebarn, I note....

Jonh - Accura says that the authorities have 'learned lessons' from Tithebarn.
This is quite a concession from one of the most perky cheerleaders of the Tithebarn scheme - he's implying that the authorities made serious errors that they now need to learn from.

If more people were prepared to speak up and criticise schemes like this, and get ordinary people listened to, perhaps we wouldn't see the authorities leaping in over their heads into problems and schemes well beyond their capabilities, then getting bogged down for years after having put all their eggs in one basket.

I certainly hope the authorities have learned from Tithebarn, I see no evidence of this yet, I don't even see any evidence that they've learned from the docks fiasco.

Unless there is open discussion, criticism and democracy, it's impossible to learn anything, and the authorities will continue in a desperate cycle of repeating the same mistakes over and over again.

By raising a few critical points, I'm actually doing the authorities a favour, though clearly they, and you, don't see it like that.

Jonh - Accura says that the authorities have 'learned lessons' from Tithebarn.
This is quite a concession from one of the most perky cheerleaders of the Tithebarn scheme - he's implying that the authorities made serious errors that they now need to learn from.
When have I (or anyone else) said that the authorities haven't made errors? Of course they have. And I'm not just talking about Preston Council, I'm talking about Lancashire CC as well and their inability to work together and take decisive action.

If more people were prepared to speak up and criticise schemes like this, and get ordinary people listened to, perhaps we wouldn't see the authorities leaping in over their heads in problems and schemes beyond their capabilities.
There has been no shortage of people criticising Tithebarn, and I think we have learned that most 'critics' don't have a clue what they are talking about.

I certainly hope the authorities have learned from Tithebarn, I see no evidence of this yet, I don't even see any evidence that they've learned from the docks fiasco.
As do I. I'd say they have learned from the docks though. It would have been far easier, and far more profitable for the council to sell off the land on and allow developers to build whatever they wanted on the cheap. We haven't seen that. Instead we have a structured development strategy which would place a new focus on that area of Preston and compliment its heritage rather than destroy it. But I suppose you're going to fault them for that too...

Unless there is open discussion, criticism and democracy, it's impossible to learn anything, and the authorities will continue in a desperate cycle of repeating the same mistakes over and over again.
Its all very well saying that, but time and time again we have asked you what you would do with the area. Instead you criticise those with good ideas and come up with very unpractical suggestions about democracy and the so called working classes. I've lived here all my life and have noticed that people who live in my town love nothing more than to slag each other off, so good luck getting 130,000 people to sit down and agree on a plan for the Tithebarn area.

[QUOTE=Accura4Matalan;57956705] I'd say they have learned from the docks though. It would have been far easier, and far more profitable for the council to sell off the land on and allow developers to build whatever they wanted on the cheap. We haven't seen that. Instead we have a structured development strategy which would place a new focus on that area of Preston and compliment its heritage rather than destroy it.[QUOTE]
+1 to that.

Quite a few typos in the LEP article though!

If more people were prepared to speak up and criticise schemes like this, and get ordinary people listened to

And WHAT would these "ordinary" people be saying? All we hear is "no" and derogatory crap about allegeded minimum wage jobs.

then getting bogged down for years after having put all their eggs in one basket.

This "eggs in one basket" rubbish again. I can see the other headlines now - "Tithebarn developers clash over access roads" "Still no agreement on design consolidation between Tithebarn developers" Etc... A development of this size should be with one developer.

By raising a few critical points, I'm actually doing the authorities a favour, though clearly they, and you, don't see it like that.

Gosh, aren't you the superior clever dick... :ohno:

Well, good luck. If Tithebarn gets canned, you'll get what you wish for. Pity it will not be what you are expecting....

Some images of the Lawson Street conversion on the front of todays LEP. Doesn't look too bad at all. They are going for a red brick approach which should help take away the greyness of that area, and are adding an extra 2-storeys. Considering that its just student flats, this looks way better than the Crystal House conversion.

Does anyone have a copy of the LEP to upload an image? I don't think it will feature in the Birmingham Mail! And it isn't on the LEP website unfortunately.

The people behind the future of Preston are asking you to tell them your vision for the city. (Read the full story = http://www.lep.co.uk...s/masterplan_vi ... e_1_781358)

Preston Vision has set up a series of focus group sessions next month which will be attended by business leaders, community and faith groups, but is also be open to the public.

But you can also share your vision here, and talk to others about theirs by posting at http://www.lep.co.uk/community/forum

We will then pass on these comments to the Vision board.

For more information about Preston Vision board or to find out about the focus group meetings email: jane.jenkins@prestonvision.co.uk

The people behind the future of Preston are asking you to tell them your vision for the city. (Read the full story = http://www.lep.co.uk...s/masterplan_vi ... e_1_781358)


No, sorry, you must be lying. They have no interest in ordinary Preston folk surely? :lol:

Mind you, if the number of posts in that forum is anything to go by....

Although it's still behind scaff, the new hotel on Ringway / Corporation St does look seriously disappointing.

Although it's still behind scaff, the new hotel on Ringway / Corporation St does look seriously disappointing.
I have been keeping an eye out on flickr for any pics of how this is coming along but none as yet. I'll be back in Preston in a few weeks. I hope it's not too bad!

I have to agree. Looks like a lot of red brick. It will probably be not much better than the Legacy Hotel on Marsh Lane.

Although it's still behind scaff, the new hotel on Ringway / Corporation St does look seriously disappointing.
Well, it is quite big...

To be fair its probably the best we can expect. Either the recession was going to make it look rubbish or the planning department were. Anyone in Preston fancy going out and getting some pics?

I've had a [albiet brief and totally regrettable] visit to Preston this evening after work and had a gander at this as I made my way to the Uni campus from the station. I noticed the render on the hoardings, one I don't recall seeing before. I think (more, hope!) that, despite not being the multi-coloured 10 storey we were shown initially that this could turn out fair alright. The brick element and mass reminded me a little of the low rise block in Sheffield (name escapes me) or perhaps something from Granary Wharf in Leeds. I think the real worry about it should be what seems to be beige/creamy tiles around the windows/inset parts of the elevation.

Either way it adds much needed bulk and presence to this part of the city and whilst not being the gateway needed its a less step, more awkward shuffle of progression.

[albiet brief and totally regrettable]
You didn't get stood up did you? ;)

no, it was a Uclan-flavoured affair (angry face here) :P - see 'angry rant thread in skybar if you're that bored, I mean..interested

Sort of off topic, but you may have noticed features starting to appear in the WOW section of the LEP on Friday nights about 2010 Preston Tringe. I'm heavily involved with this and for the 2nd Tringe, we're bringing 88 shows from 48 acts to 5 city centre venues over 9 days in the last week of July.
There's theatre, comedy, magic, music and 'unconventional performance' as we try to make Preston a more vibrant and vital place to live and visit. Each show is peanuts in cost (£4 or £5) and a number of them are using us (as we hoped) as a staging post for their Edinburgh Fringe peformances in August.
We're printing 15,000 programmes at the moment as part of our marketing but if you want an advance copy of everything that we're bringing to Preston drop me an email to tarquin@tarkitecture.co.uk and I'll send it to you by pdf attachment to an email. Further details on all the shows we're bringing to town can be found at www.tringe.co.uk (http://www.tringe.co.uk)
Thanks,
Tark.

Experts are drawing up a bright new future for Preston’s landmark Post Office building.

The Grade Two listed Birley Street building was once thought to be the perfect location for the city’s library and then a “Dragons Den” for young business brains.

But both projects stalled and the building has remained largely empty since the Post Office moved to Theatre Street in 2002.

Now, a team of development consultants has been employed to come up with a “viable, economically sustainable use for the building”.

Following a tender process, a team from King Sturge, which has an office in Manchester, has carried out a “market assessment” and drawn up a draft report. It is hoped more details can be released in the next few weeks.

It is hoped the site, owned by Preston Council, can be marketed for redevelopment within 12 months and that the transformation will be completed within five years.

Preston Council leader Ken Hudson said: “We want something to happen with that building and we’re hoping the consultants will come up with a scheme that’s financially viable.”

The plans are being looked at by a partnership including Preston Council, Preston Vision, the North West Development Agency, the University of Central Lancashire and Lancashire County Developments Limited.

Eliot Ward, chief executive of Preston Vision, said: “It’s a building standing idyl right in the heart of the city and we’re all keen to see that building come back into beneficial use, especially given that the Flag Market scheme is about to kick off.

“It stands in great splendour. It is a listed building in a conservation area but, in terms of its internal lay-out, clearly, a lot of work is required. It’s not an easy nut to crack.

“It’s a magnificent-looking building but one which is undoubtedly going to be costly to redevelop and we’re just trying to establish where the demand might lie in the current climate.”

In evidence presented to the Tithebarn public inquiry, which will decide the fate of Preston’s proposed £700m Tithebarn redevelopment, Philip Robin from King Sturge, which has an office in Manchester, said: “The joint partnership sees the site as providing potential new facilities within the commercial/education sectors that will serve the public and add to the varied role and function of the city centre.

“The site could be brought to the market within the next 12 months and delivery of an agreed scheme could be brought forward after that.”

More than 8,000 people signed a petition when it was suggested the Birley Street Post Office should be closed down because it was losing money. It was hoped the former Post Office could have been turned into Preston’s central library to free up more gallery space in the Harris Museum. Plans were drawn up for a £25m, six-storey knowledge centre housed in the Post Office and Fish Market buildings, forming a new cultural quarter for the city.

It was due to open in 2008 but the plans were stopped in their tracks when a bid for funding failed.

The next idea was for it to be turned into a design and innovation centre to help retain the cream of the city’s graduates but that has yet to come to fruition.

Instead, the ground floor of the building was taken over by the PAD Gallery in 2008 when it moved from Church Street.

The more I think about it, I realise just how much of a shame it was that the library plans fell through. It was a brilliant proposal and a perfect way of putting the building to use.

I agree Accura. However, was there not mention of a library in the proposals off Church Street? Clear out the Harris Library and expand the museum and gallery (and get the bloody place open on Sundays!!)

I noticed that the Church Street proposals had been removed from Bluemantle's website a while back... So I wouldn't hold your breath!

Jesus, does anything actually get off the ground in Preston?

Only the university is keeping Preston from being another Blackburn...and amazingly some people even want rid of that.

This might actually be half decent:
http://publicaccess.preston.gov.uk/portal/servlets/ApplicationSearchServlet?PKID=89589

The more I think about it, I realise just how much of a shame it was that the library plans fell through. It was a brilliant proposal and a perfect way of putting the building to use.
"Pilotti" in Private Eye was very critical of the scheme produced by some Welsh architects, if memory serves me right. It was overblown in size and changes to the building - maybe that's why it didn't get funding.
The Library should come out of the Harris howeve, so that it can expand it's excellent work in the visual arts.
One of the early proposals for the Tithebarn was to move the Library into the ground floor of the Guild Hall which doesn't work as a shopping mall, especially as the existing bus station dies a death of a thousand cuts. I think that would be an excellent cultural alchemy, but like most of the good ideas for Preston, it's not going to happen.

This might actually be half decent:
http://publicaccess.preston.gov.uk/portal/servlets/ApplicationSearchServlet?PKID=89589

And big! Look at the size of it compared to the Premier Inn on those elevation sketches! Almost double the height at its highest point. Considering the dominance that the Premier Inn now has in that area, this should really add a large amount of density to the area. Although doubtful, if the 14-storey on the site of Staples ever goes ahead, its going to be mighty impressive driving down that section of the Ringway!

The Library should come out of the Harris howeve, so that it can expand it's excellent work in the visual arts.
One of the early proposals for the Tithebarn was to move the Library into the ground floor of the Guild Hall which doesn't work as a shopping mall, especially as the existing bus station dies a death of a thousand cuts. I think that would be an excellent cultural alchemy, but like most of the good ideas for Preston, it's not going to happen.
Its a nice idea that. The library is absolutely pitiful. UCLAN has by far the best library in Preston, its a shame that its not open to the general public.

Er yeah, a brilliant library until they stop your Uni card letting you into the building when you've still got your final year books checked out.. and won't let you through the security gate to pay the fines you're incurring by standing there! :|

It'd be a superb height for this part of the city, and I'd imagine highly visible on the approach from the south at the train station. Once (well, more if) built, I think it would really get the ball rolling on further developments of a similiar size. Was a real pity that I noticed a surface car park opposite Harris/Marsh buildings which was the proposed site for that rather tall student block on my unmentionable visit.

Why was your visit so unmentionable, ferge? Were you accosted by Toxic Terry? Lol.

Why was your visit so unmentionable, ferge? Were you accosted by Toxic Terry? Lol.

It is because i trawled up to Uni for an exhibition which I'd been told (as well as other former students) started at 7pm, to find out when getting there it had started at 5 and by the time we got there it was near over. Then I was told by an old classmate who graduates this year (due to splitting their final year when I was still there) that this year's tutors had used my work as a 'how not to do an exhibition' n basically been ripping it for shits and giggles all year. THEN as I was chatting to the tutors they made fun about someone's work that they'd used to spur on this years students, not knowing I'd been told - being all coy about it saying 'oh but we could never name names'.. So they basically rip me work and then bitch about it behind my back, but to my face :ohno: :bash:

Anyway, over it now :|

Ouch! What a bunch of bitches!

Er yeah, a brilliant library until they stop your Uni card letting you into the building when you've still got your final year books checked out.. and won't let you through the security gate to pay the fines you're incurring by standing there! :|
Damn! I was hoping to carry on sneaking in from time to time! :(

It'd be a superb height for this part of the city, and I'd imagine highly visible on the approach from the south at the train station. Once (well, more if) built, I think it would really get the ball rolling on further developments of a similiar size. Was a real pity that I noticed a surface car park opposite Harris/Marsh buildings which was the proposed site for that rather tall student block on my unmentionable visit.
Yeh, there seems to be a fair bit of that going on at UCLAN, knocking down the old shoddy buildings and replacing them with temporary surface car parks. They've recently demolished Brock/Brun halls too.

AWESOME!

http://www.lep.co.uk/news/exclusive_images_of_13_storey_tower_set_for_students_1_790635

Glass? In Preston?!! I am looking forward to seeing the detailed renders. This could be a very good development.

"City of Flats", it never fails to impress me how utterly pathetic localised NIMBY folk can be. It'd need to be a high quality finish to make it a nice building..otherwise it might be a bit of a bookend to Crystal House at the other end and well, none of us would want that :|

This looks really good. Should hide the view of Lowthian House (sorry... 'Limehouse' ;) ) from the railway station too. Glad too see that the usual LEP mob want to preserve whats already there. A decaying church, some advertising boards and a scruffy car park. Its refreshing to see that Preston is receiving any kind of investment in such hard times, and is a testament to how much of an asset UCLAN is to Preston. Although I agree what they did to ferge was bang out of order.

it never fails to impress me how utterly pathetic localised NIMBY folk can be.

I think calling them NIMBY is a bit too restrictive. NAITTILI might be better (Not Anywhere In The Town I Live In) This can be applied to anything that has had so much as the thought cross anyone's mind, even more so if the proposal comes from anyone who has so much as left Preston for 5 minutes.

Insular doesn't go far enough to describe the town sometimes!

http://www.lep.co.uk/webimage/exterior_2_1_790633!image/2428562662.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_595/2428562662.jpg

Looks very promising.

Anyone got any info on the Staples site across the way?

I'm not holding my breath on the Staples site. Especially now that a tenant is in the former Sleepmasters unit.

Tithebarn would take Preston ‘out of sight’

http://www.lep.co.uk/news/tithebarn_would_take_preston_out_of_sight_1_795284

I'm sorry, but why should Preston be held back because a couple of Lancashire yokels can't get their act together? They relinquished their Lancs-wide voice when they became unitary authorities, and now that Preston is actually making progress, they conveniently want it back. Perhaps we should hold Manchester and Liverpool back while Lancashire plays catch up?

I think David Elvin QC agrees with Accura.

http://www.lep.co.uk/news/opponents_accused_of_tithebarn_sour_grapes_1_796026

I'm sorry, but why should Preston be held back because a couple of Lancashire yokels can't get their act together? They relinquished their Lancs-wide voice when they became unitary authorities, and now that Preston is actually making progress, they conveniently want it back. Perhaps we should hold Manchester and Liverpool back while Lancashire plays catch up?

Well said. If Tithebarn does get the go ahead, I hope that 100% of the costs for this shambles will be met by Blackpool and Blackburn.

I have said it on the LEP site and I'll say it here. (I may have done so already here, but I know that such comments never attract a response from the Hold Preston Back brigade) I have lived here for over a decade, seven years in Penwortham, and in Leyland ever since (not the best move I ever made, but hey...) This puts me in the catchment for Preston, Blackpool and Blackburn. In that time, I have visited the centre of Blackburn once. Yes, once. If it had not been for that being the nearest stockist of an item I wanted, that figure would be 0. I have visited the centre of Blackpool maybe twice, and the seafront area maybe a couple more times.

Here is the big sticker. I reckon that the last time we visited the centre of Preston was in March. We have atively sought to visit anywhere else since then and to be fair have succeeded very well. And I regret that this will continue for the time being. Preston offers little to us that a few more miles in the car couldn't get us somewhere much better, e.g. Manchester or Liverpool. The likes of Riversider and matt "post the same post 400 times" hill and their compatriots who oppose almost everything proposed for Preston forget that there is a damn good reason that their beloved bus station is topped by a car park that barely reaches 50% capacity!!

What is all the more telling is that despite hundreds of posts (it seems) from Riversider bemoaning the fact that no-one listens to the "ordinary person" in Preston, I have seen not one single alternative proposal from the Hold Preston Back group!! Nothing. Nada. Not so much as a sausage. I guess that is because a town with an oversized bus station, underused car parks and Greggs/Poundshops on every corner really IS the pinnacle of their ambition!

I think the development on the Mission site looks awesome, and hope that it does actually happen, though given Preston developers' history of hype and failure, I won't hold my breath.

What I particularly welcome about this development is that the developer has recognised their responsibility to the people they are displacing. They will rebuild a new improved version of the City Mission.

This contrasts markedly with the attitude of the Tithebarn developers, who expect the public to pick up the bulk of the tab for demolishing and rebuilding our bus station, in order to make way for their development.

This could still prove to be a major stumbling block for the Tithebarn scheme, as about £10m of the cost of building the new poor substitute for our bus station was meant to come from the NWDA, which now faces a major cut in it's resources.

Putting together a North West crane count and wondered if anyone could confirm if there are cranes on the skyline in or around the city centre and name the development if so please.

thanks

What I particularly welcome about this development is that the developer has recognised their responsibility to the people they are displacing. They will rebuild a new improved version of the City Mission.

This contrasts markedly with the attitude of the Tithebarn developers, who expect the public to pick up the bulk of the tab for demolishing and rebuilding our bus station, in order to make way for their development.


Apples with oranges.

Tithebarn isn't displacing anyone, the current oversized bus station and car park will be replaced by adequate facilities nearby. The new bus station will improve life for the likes of Miller Arcade as more people will pass that location due to the clearer, easier to negotiate, straight in route the new station would provide to existing and new shopping areas compared to the through the backstreets route of the current oversized bus station.

Tithebarn isn't displacing anyone, the current oversized bus station and car park will be replaced by adequate facilities nearby. The new bus station will improve life for the likes of Miller Arcade as more people will pass that location due to the clearer, easier to negotiate, straight in route the new station would provide to existing and new shopping areas compared to the through the backstreets route of the current oversized bus station.



Even if what you said was true Jonh, the fact is that it is we, the public, who are being expected to pay for the replacement bus station, rather than the developer, even though the existing station is not only perfectly adequate for it's job, but a piece of irreplaceable architectural heritage. Why on earth should scarce LCC funds be used, which could have funded services for people with disabilities or schools and teachers, to downgrade our public transport capacity?

to downgrade our public transport capacity?

Provide independent evidence that public transport capacity is being downgraded please.

My personal theory, is that the number of bus station bays will be similar to those currently used to provide many high density services. The management of the bays is the key, not the numbers, if buses come in and turn around quickly rather than sitting in a bay for 1/4 or 1/2 an hour at a time, capacity can actually increase with a smaller station. But then we have argued this point many times before.... :bash:

Capacity is clearly being downgraded in many ways, we are seeing higher fares, fewer routes, less frequent services, and now a smaller bus station with fewer bays.

I call this a downgrading of public transport capacity. Presumably you call it 'progress'.

Do you have any idea how much the current bus station costs to maintain? Im guessing not. A new bus station would be built to meet todays needs with regards to sustainability making it more fit for purpose than the current bus station. Over time this would produce a net saving in the operational budget due to a new station being cheaper to maintain.

One fact that you also seem to ignore is that the current bus station is above and beyond capacity. Half of the stands are not used, and half of the car park is being shut isnt it? Thats half of the building being redundant. With regards to the "downgrading of capacity" you have been told many many times that cities with more bus services and more buses (Liverpool, Manchester) operate perfectly well without the massive amount of stands that Preston has. Thats because the services are managed and dont use the station to park the buses.

The current bus station is to big for Prestons needs. Far far far to big. Unless Preston becomes the size of Manchester and Liverpool combined then it has no need for the station to be as big as it is!

I could understand the need for a big bus station if there was a future or current demand for it. There is neither. Passengers are increasingly favouring rail for intercity travel and even when local routes were saturated 2 years ago during the Stagecoach and Preston Bus conflict, the bus station was still being used to less than half its capacity by buses. I think the passenger figures would be even more shcoking.

Rational, sensible comments there guys. I fully expect Riversider to read, digest and totally ignore whilst rambling on with his "downgraded bus station" crap.

What your argument is saying is that because the number of bus operators, buses and actual bus users is falling, we need a smaller bus station to reflect this.

This ignores the desperate need to INCREASE the number of people using public transport, evidenced by our gridlocked roads, carbon emissions and the possibility that we could already have reached 'peak oil'.

Far from further reducing capacity, we should be investing massively in improving public transport so that it becomes a viable option for most of those people currently forced to use cars.

Following your logic would simply mean a terminal decline for public transport, resulting in the social and economic isolation of people who have no alternative to using buses.

The real problem is, that these people and these crucial issues are simply not important to the politicians and developers who are plotting the future of our city, but we ignore them at our peril.

What your argument is saying is that because the number of bus operators, buses and actual bus users is falling, we need a smaller bus station to reflect this.

This ignores the desperate need to INCREASE the number of people using public transport, evidenced by our gridlocked roads, carbon emissions and the possibility that we could already have reached 'peak oil'.

Far from further reducing capacity, we should be investing massively in improving public transport so that it becomes a viable option for most of those people currently forced to use cars.

Following your logic would simply mean a terminal decline for public transport, resulting in the social and economic isolation of people who have no alternative to using buses.

The real problem is, that these people and these crucial issues are simply not important to the politicians and developers who are plotting the future of our city, but we ignore them at our peril.

And you ignore (again) that Preston doesnt and never will need a terminal the size that it has. How do you explain that Liverpool has more services and less stands, yet has no issues with capacity. Shockingly they dont use the bus station as a parking lot for the buses!

What your argument is saying is that because the number of bus operators, buses and actual bus users is falling, we need a smaller bus station to reflect this.


No, his argument is NOT saying that at all. You'd have to be pretty blinkered or just plain thick to think that. What I struggle with is your unwavering focus on the existance of a bus station, I must assume railways are "middle class" and above in your world and therefore not worthy of consideration!

Leyland is still served by an every 10 minute service into Preston, does it need to be 5 minute? No. Will it reduce because of a smaller (in area) bus station. No. Will better slot management be needed? Yes. Are there other means of getting to Preston from Leyland than a bus. Yes.

Can't see your problem really.

CaptainJason, can't see a banging head against wall icon, otherwise would put one in!

Railways are not at all 'middle class', it's just that many people do not have a railway station on their doorstep, when they could very easily have a bus stop nearby. Also the bus service and the train service are not at all integrated. Nobody has thought about the kind of circuitous and complex routes bus users need to take to get from one part of town to another.

Nobody can deny that there has been a downgrading of bus services in recent years. If the authorities had had a conscious aim of doing this, they could not have done much better. The decline has been because bus transport has been seen as a low priority - buses have been allowed to get dirty and unpleasant, putting many people off travelling, routes have been cut. There's a big cut coming in funding for rural routes, which will further trap a lot of people who depend on buses.

I'd go as far as to say that there is a deep prejudice against buses and bus users in this country - reflected by the way that bus stations are being downgraded, buses neglected and bus user's needs not even considered.

Yet again you avoid why you think that Preston needs a Bus station of its size. If you could present a solid fact opposed to your oen opinion why it needed to be as big as it is and that the new station will not suit Prestons need then that would be a downgrading. However you cannot present any reasoning other than your own opinion. You have been presented with facts, and a case as to why the bus station is not needed, and you have nothing to counter them!

In other news was in the city centre today. The Premier Inn on Ringway is coming along nicely. I wonder if there planning on doing much with the court yard that will be formed when the student block is completed. Could become quite a nice popular space if they get it right!

Also I use the bus service in Preston regularly, I find it pleasant and actually cheaper that when PB were in charge! If there are buses that are dirty then surely thats the operator and not the councils?

Also there is a new shop fit out, big windows opposite HMV, when did that happen? Anyone know if any shops have signed up for it yet?

Also there is a new shop fit out, big windows opposite HMV, when did that happen? Anyone know if any shops have signed up for it yet?
Apparently, H&M were considering moving to that unit and there was talk of Zara being interested in it.

Railways are not at all 'middle class', it's just that many people do not have a railway station on their doorstep, when they could very easily have a bus stop nearby. Also the bus service and the train service are not at all integrated. Nobody has thought about the kind of circuitous and complex routes bus users need to take to get from one part of town to another.

I live on the far side of Leyland to the railway station. I have bus stops nearby which offer a ten minute frequency to the railway station. Please explain how this is not integrated? (The alternative is that I jump in the car and park at the station for £1 - not bad)

Nobody can deny that there has been a downgrading of bus services in recent years.

I can, when I first moved to Penwortham in 1999, the bus service was every 15 minutes, four buses an hour. Today, the same service runs every 9 mins, approx 6 buses an hour. Fact.

buses have been allowed to get dirty and unpleasant, putting many people off travelling

Virtually all buses today are better, cleaner and more comfortable than they were in 1999. The only mess I have seen on buses has been down to the behaviour of the passengers onboard, not the owner or authority.

There's a big cut coming in funding for rural routes, which will further trap a lot of people who depend on buses.

Rural areas have always had fewer services by the very nature of them. The people who are "trapped" will have, in many cases, chosen to live there. When I am older, my choices will be made on where I can get to and what I can do. If I can drive, I may live somewhere like that, if not, I won't. Comes back to people wanting the best without personal sacrifice.

I'd go as far as to say that there is a deep prejudice against buses and bus users in this country - reflected by the way that bus stations are being downgraded, buses neglected and bus user's needs not even considered.

Utter crap. Many places have had new, smarter, cleaner bus stations built (Lancaster/Chorley/Liverpool for example) and almost all major operators have modern, clean buses.

Basically, you talk complete shite. All the time.

I agree with pretty much every response to Riversider's comments that have been made, but I'd just like to respond to the following:

Following your logic would simply mean a terminal decline for public transport, resulting in the social and economic isolation of people who have no alternative to using buses.

The real problem is, that these people and these crucial issues are simply not important to the politicians and developers who are plotting the future of our city, but we ignore them at our peril.

I find it very curious that you are relating the needs of passengers to the survival of the bus station. You mentioned earlier in your post that the number of people using buses has gone down. I'm not sure if that's the case, but the number of people traveling by bus into Preston city centre is not proportionate to the number of people using the bus station. It really is out on a limb. As someone who travels from Penwortham by bus, I can say without a shadow of a doubt that the vast majority of users travelling from Leyland, Southport, Lostock Hall, Penwortham, Longton, and anywhere else in that part of West Lancashire alight and board along Fishergate. The late night services from Penwortham don't even bother calling at the bus station. The conclusion from this is that the bus station is not in a good place for its users, and the proposed new location isn't much better either, but you can thank Lancashire County Council for that.

The bus station was built for a time period that ended much quicker than people anticipated, and upon the prediction that railways would fall into a steep decline. Car travel is no longer encouraged, more people are traveling on the railways than ever before, the 1960's town centre retail format died a very quick death, and Preston has a transport facility that is lucky to survive as long as it has. I can appreciate future proofing, but whether bus travel takes off or not, Preston will not need a bus station of the size it currently has. Now can we please start realistically thinking about Preston's future and get over sentiment.

An excellent summary Accura, and to highlight some major points

I find it very curious that you are relating the needs of passengers to the survival of the bus station. You mentioned earlier in your post that the number of people using buses has gone down. I'm not sure if that's the case, but the number of people traveling by bus into Preston city centre is not proportionate to the number of people using the bus station. It really is out on a limb. As someone who travels from Penwortham by bus, I can say without a shadow of a doubt that the vast majority of users travelling from Leyland, Southport, Lostock Hall, Penwortham, Longton, and anywhere else in that part of West Lancashire alight and board along Fishergate. The late night services from Penwortham don't even bother calling at the bus station. The conclusion from this is that the bus station is not in a good place for its users, and the proposed new location isn't much better either, but you can thank Lancashire County Council for that.

The bus station was built for a time period that ended much quicker than people anticipated, and upon the prediction that railways would fall into a steep decline. Car travel is no longer encouraged, more people are traveling on the railways than ever before, the 1960's town centre retail format died a very quick death, and Preston has a transport facility that is lucky to survive as long as it has. I can appreciate future proofing, but whether bus travel takes off or not, Preston will not need a bus station of the size it currently has. Now can we please start realistically thinking about Preston's future and get over sentiment.

I would reiterate that LCC are the only known planning authority in the world that do not believe in an integrated public transport system. They claim that there is no demand for bus/train - train/bus use in the city. The reason is the vast disconnect the two services have offered the town / city since, and before the bus station was built. Even BDP told Preston Borough Council they were building it the wrong place, but unless they did as PBC said they would have lost the commission and their staff would have lost their jobs as a result, so BDP acceded to the Council's ridiculous planning decision. The brief given by PBC was a joke too, but nothing Keith Ingham and BDP told them could make them see sense. So we have, quite literally, a white elephant of a bus station whose time has passed - and should never have been, to be honest.

I HATE the fact that they are apart. For example say you go somewhere for the day out of Preston you get a train. When you come back in unless you are going to Penwortham you have to track across town to get a bus. Its retarded. What is the justification for not building it buy the rail station. Theres the land bounded by Corporation Street and Ringway which would be perfect as due to sightlines nothing tall is allowed to block the County Hall.

I must have imagined all those stories in the LEP about bus routes being curtailed then.

I do have the right to post different opinions from the majority without suffering foul mouthed abuse. I do not believe I have used similar abuse in my own postings, rather I have attempted to stick to reasoned argument.

I've watched the neglect of Preston's public transport for years, and I've watched the way that the council and developers have continued to fail Preston people, a whole litany of crazed schemes and broken promises. You may not like me pointing this out, especially here where developer's hype is treated as gospel truth, but if you imagine that you can prevent me saying it by using such ignorant insults, you're gravely wrong.

I must have imagined all those stories in the LEP about bus routes being curtailed then.

I do have the right to post different opinions from the majority without suffering foul mouthed abuse. I do not believe I have used similar abuse in my own postings, rather I have attempted to stick to reasoned argument.

I've watched the neglect of Preston's public transport for years, and I've watched the way that the council and developers have continued to fail Preston people, a whole litany of crazed schemes and broken promises. You may not like me pointing this out, especially here where developer's hype is treated as gospel truth, but if you imagine that you can prevent me saying it by using such ignorant insults, you're gravely wrong.

Nobody objects to you expressing your opinion and having your say. I don't condone bad attitudes among forumers, but your unwavering negativity and contradictions are bound to arouse a certain sense of frustration. In all the time you have been posting here, I don't think I have ever seen you support any proposals or redevelopment for the city (unless that it happens to conform to your far left political beliefs). I'm not for a second going to defend PCC or LCC, but it makes very little sense to me to make accusations or slate the authorities based on populist beliefs with no factual basis, or decisions made by the council decades ago. Another common theme that you employ is 'let the people decide', yet you have never actually explained what this means or shared your idea of Preston's future. To me, its objecting for the sake of objecting. If everybody had that attitude, Preston would be stuck in a time warp.

Jonh, I'm glad that Leyland has a good bus service that integrates well with the train station there.

However of course, this thread is about Preston, and it's pretty obvious that there is no integration of the two services there, and that the new bus station does nothing to put this right.

Accura, far from being 'universally negative' I have welcomed several developments, you seem to have missed my praise for the developers who will be replacing the City Mission buildings they are displacing with superior facilities. You also seem to have missed my praise for the work on St Augustines church, which preserved some beautiful architecture and delivered an excellent community facility (one which is now scandalously already under threat for reasons that I feel deserve deeper explanation). I've also spoken up in favour of the big drainage works going on in the Strand Road area, which will improve water quality in the Ribble Estuary. If these are 'far left' schemes then your definition of 'far left' is rather broad.

I have also put forward in various fora mechanisms by which people might actually get a say in the future of their city. It would be just as easy to set up a city vision board that involves community and environmental organisations and trade unionists as it was to set up an organisation based on self-interested businessmen. We now have fantastic modern communications technology, that, if we were imaginative enough, we could use to 'wikify' city centre plans and allow ANYBODY to play around, tweak and add their own suggestions.

I've pointed out that while it might seem to some like an unneccessary expense to involve the public from the beginning, in the long run it would save £millions and mean that many more projects were ultimately successful. All the alternative high handed strategies we've seen in Preston have delivered so far is a number of totally failed schemes, while the few that still go forward suffer delay after delay after delay, and actually do trap Preston in that 'time warp'. Far from being 'negative', the approach I've been advocating is the only pragmatic and practical one, an approach that takes the city forward in a way that makes sense for all it's people.

You have never been given abuse. The problem is when it comes to the case of the Bus Station you produce no facts only your opinions as to why you think it needs to be as big as it is. Many of us on here have produced facts and case studies as to why the Bus Station is to big. None of which you have been able to counteract.

Secondly you seem to have this idea that if given the chance the 'People of Preston' would unite and create something better than Tithebarn. I say you are very deluded. Preston is a very diverse city for its size. From Deepdale to Fulwood you have a city filled with very different people. How can you come up with something everyone will like. Simple answer is you cant.
How do you please the people who don't want any development? What about the people who do want Tithebarn? What about the people who think it should be a retail park development on the outskirts of Preston. All 3 are ideas which people in Preston follow. How do you cater for all 3? Simple answer is you cant. Do you think you know better than building professionals who have been educated and have experience in the their field. Or do you not like them because they have abit more disposable income?

Also the only development that Riversider has ever supported is FG2.

CJ, I would refer you to the post immediately above your own, which refutes many of your points, such as "the only development that Riversider has ever supported is FG2". I mention in that post at least 3 other developments that I have supported.

I think you are living at least 3 decades in the past if you want to leave everything to 'the professionals'. The era where everyone deferred to the 'experts' is now long gone, apart from, it seems, in Preston. Today professionalism is far more about listening, and about sharing information and skills so that communities can come up with coproduced solutions, rather than having someone elses' solution imposed upon them.

Understanding this philosophy, and being prepared to listen and learn from their catalogue of mistakes is essential if Preston's authorities are to become as modern and cosmopolitan as the communities they represent.

However of course, this thread is about Preston and it's pretty obvious that there is no integration of the two services there

Well, this is a pure and simple lie. Utter and total lie.

Preston Bus station and Preston rail station are fully linked.

http://www.prestonbus.co.uk/timetable088a_088c.htm

I think you'll find that this matches integration of services in many other towns and cities country and worldwide. If you (and this does not just apply to Riversider) think this ISN'T integration, then find a dictionary, because you are clueless of the meaning of integration.

I have also put forward in various fora mechanisms by which people might actually get a say in the future of their city.

Which has then been provided to dismissive derision by you. That is a no-win situation!

It would be just as easy to set up a city vision board community and environmental organisations and trade unionists as it was to set up an organisation based on self-interested businessmen.

Dear God, don't involve trade unionists for God's sake!!! Derek Simpson wouldn't touch such an event without overnight accomodation (4 star minimum) and dinner thrown in! As for the inference that trade unionists are not self-interested, that deserves nothing more than HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! I am not a member of my company's trade union which is a shame because for £10 a month I could work half as hard and earn the same money, not to mention break company rules more often with 100% protection.

You're just showing your own deeply held prejudices against trade unionists there Jonh. Despite the 'universal derision' of all who have been posting on these boards, what I have been arguing for is simply what is widely recognised as basic good practice in urban regeneration. As far back as the year 2000, experts in the field were pointing out key learning points that have just been totally ignored in Preston:

"A feature of too many regeneration areas is the feeling of residents that they have no influence over public decisions. They therefore lack confidence in public agencies as well as themselves.

There is little recognition that community involvement ought to produce a transfer of power to those currently powerless.

To work towards this, regeneration programmes should: budget for community development and capacity building from the start; ensure that partners understand community development processes; enter into formal regeneration and service quality agreements, or community plans; and measure success in terms of community confidence and skills, and residents' views of regeneration achievements."

http://www.jrf.org.uk/publications/urban-regeneration-through-partnership-critical-appraisal

If shares in governance are so skewed that some hold a special place of privilege while
others receive no consideration, politics fails to pass the elementary test of democracy. The
strategic agendas of localities are one test. If they are weak or non-existent, the citizenry lacks
political power and an important aspect of democracy is not at work. An abundance of subsystem
activities may suggest pluralism, but does not constitute democracy. Furthermore, if local agendas
serve only the immediate interests of business and fail to attend to issues of social exclusion, bias,
not democracy, is at work.

http://www.essex.ac.uk/ECPR/events/jointsessions/paperarchive/turin/ws6/stone.pdf

I think you are living at least 3 decades in the past if you want to leave everything to 'the professionals'. The era where everyone deferred to the 'experts' is now long gone, apart from, it seems, in Preston. Today professionalism is far more about listening, and about sharing information and skills so that communities can come up with coproduced solutions, rather than having someone elses' solution imposed upon them.

Understanding this philosophy, and being prepared to listen and learn from their catalogue of mistakes is essential if Preston's authorities are to become as modern and cosmopolitan as the communities they represent.

That's absolute nonsense. The best examples of regeneration in the UK are where effective leadership has been in place coupled with good knowledge and a determination to deliver. Look at Manchester... under the leadership of Howard Bernstein they have turned themselves around from being a provincial backwater to a major European player in the space of just fifteen years. Shame Preston didn't have such effective leadership.

Which brings us to your idea of a working class leadership...

Well if the rabble that comment on the LEP website are anything to go by that style of redevelopment would have destroyed the university, killed off any prospects of decent job creation, turned Preston into a larger version of Blackburn, given the keys of the city to the Gregg's franchise holders.... oh yes and of course..... NO MOSQUES! I take it back Riversider, this whole idea is very forward thinking! ;)

Not everyone is as starry-eyed about Manchester's regeneration as you Accura: http://manchestermule.com/article/kick-starting-manchester%E2%80%99s-regeneration-game-again

The regeneration has utterly failed to deliver more affordable housing to local residents: http://manchestermule.com/article/council-failing-to-deliver-affordable-housing

It's also clear that all this publicly funded regeneration has NOT led to more jobs or less social inequality:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/a-decade-of-urban-regeneration-leaves-big-inequalities-in-cities-764137.html

Some of the recent criticism of Riversider seems to be just for the sake of it. Lord knows, I've had plenty of run ins with him, but we all must admit, he sparks debate and therefore must make us question our own views. Two interesting points from Accura in recent posts of his:
1) Preston IS actually stuck in a time warp!
2) What Preston has lacked for over 100 years is effective leadership.
Effective leadership can at times be seen as draconian. It needs someone with drive, ambition, desire and vision; a set of attributes attributes which I have seen in no Preston politician in my lifetime. These attributes will be put to best use if, as RS says, the effective leader is also prepared to listen. The views of the general public must be treated with caution however, as they generally express very limited opinions formed from a lack of experience and wider education about the overarching implications of the many and complex issues which coalesce into the topic of urban renewal. Similarly, a degree of wariness must be exercised in listening to advice of "the professionals" who may have issues which are not saintly good and philanthropic - the monument to their own gratification being best exemplified (in my opinion) by the awful designs for Winckley Square proposed by the Cooper Partnership. Or to put it another way, they were having a wank looking at their own drawings. Judgement and balance are key ingredients to effective leadership.
Not everyone will like what an effective leader does at the time because it won't suit their own narrow perspective. History will judge them. RS might not like what Manchester has done, but today as I walk round its city centre long after the bomb, I sense I am in a World Class city - a sensation I never had 20 years ago.

Some of the recent criticism of Riversider seems to be just for the sake of it.

Not really, it is more frustration over his pig headed ignorance of any facts placed in front of him.

After the many comments on the bus station, he still goes onto the LEP and harps on about it being downgraded. Comments on services being improved are not even acknowleged!

Plus all the repeated "local people will have better ideas" yet on requesting evidence and examples, it's a "ahem" and the subject is changed!! Thus proving that, in actual fact, local people don't really care.

Simply put, he wants an oversized bus station and underused car park (which he presumably never mentions because in his world cars are not used by working class people) ahead of a development that would bring jobs and visitors to the area and might actually encourage town centre tourist attractions to make an effort on Sundays! (Sorry, I have to add the latter otherwise I'll be a brainless retail drone no doubt!)

Thanks Tark, I've long regarded you as the most perceptive and thoughtful poster in this thread, even though we often disagree.

A landmark building in Preston’s historic quarter could be turned into a boutique hotel if planning permission is approved.

The owner of the listed building in Ribblesdale Place, which looks on to the Harris Institute and Avenham Colonnade, ihas submitted an application to Preston city planners to turn it into an 18-bedroom hotel – the first of its kind in the city centre.

Mr Duddy’s agent David Fox of Wood Associates said: “It’s a fabulous house in a great location, but has been empty for about a year.

“And the emptiness of Winckley Square is a real blight on the city. So this is one bit of positive news for the area.”

“The applicant is looking for new uses and new vibrancy.

“And there isn’t anything similar around the square at the moment, nor a hotel like that proposed in the city.”

People working at businesses neighbouring the property on Ribblesdale Place had differing views on the plans.

Office receptionist Donna Serdiville said: “I think it would look out of keeping as it is quite a nice residential area.”

While managing partner of Frank Whittle Architects, David Robinson was more positive.

He said: “In principle it’s fine. We do need more quality hotels in the area.

“The trouble is the building has lain empty and if nothing is done it will be bad for the area.

“It would create activity around Winckley Square which I think is a good thing.”

According to the planning statements compiled by Wood Associates, the building is a Grade II listed property constructed in the 1830s and formerly used as a gentleman’s residence.

More recently it has served as headquarters for a local firm of solicitors.

Since they moved out in 2008, the building has remained empty, despite having been extensively marketed for both commercial and residential use.

The planning statement reads: “The open space between No.2 and No.3 Ribblesdale Place is occupied by an intrusive 20th century extension and by an electricity sub-station with the remainder being used as car parking. Historic maps show that this area has, in the past, been occupied by buildings.

“The building should be brought back into life as a small hotel with a small number of high-quality rooms.

“This is a sector of the market which is lacking in Preston and certainly within the town centre.

“The hotel will need to offer a certain number of rooms to maintain operating efficiency. The accommodation of these rooms will need to be achieved by using the existing building but also by creating an extension to infill the gap between No.2 and No.3.

“The large retaining wall will be taken down and a new function suite will be set under the car park with the roof of the structure acting as the car park.”

The application will be heard by planners on October 4.

I did a survey of nos 2 & 3 for Marsdens before they moved out. It could make a very nice bijou hotel in the city centre. It's a lot bigger than you'd expect, with extensive cellars which open on to the rear garden due to the slope to Avenham Park. The views out are lovely, of course.

The plans on PCC's website look really good. I think it would be a good addition to the Winckley Square area.

Its nice to see some quality developments being put forward again after a good 12 month lull of very little quality and lots of mediocre proposals. If this thing gets built, I might stay in it just for the experience, despite living just 10 mins away ;)

Hopefully it doesnt get umbed down resulting in bad mock Georgian!! Are there any pictures of the front of it?

It's the same architect that did City Space at the corner of East Cliff, and the Bullnose, which seems to have bitten the dust. I think he's above average and it should be in good hands.

UNLIKE ... !

The bloody monstrosity that's appearing on Fox Street now the scaffold has come down on the new hotel. Paper thin design with no molding to make shadows on the elevation as the sun moves; just a really naff pattern of disparate materials. Shocking.

Hopefully it doesnt get umbed down resulting in bad mock Georgian!! Are there any pictures of the front of it?

I assume the front will be the original frontage of the building, and therefore real Georgian!! :lol: It is out the back that the extension will be built.

Naturally a certain contributor to this forum has already posted their disapproval. Not sure if that is down to the architecture or the fact that it's a facility that will not benefit the lower classes... :nuts:

Oh so thats and extension to the back of something? Ill be honest I havn't been down there in quite a while. Cant see any problems with it. Not like it will distract from the character of the area or any such lark!

The plans on PCC's website look really good. I think it would be a good addition to the Winckley Square area.
Can you give a link please, I'm struggling to find it.
I saw the perspective in the LEP and the front and rear of No 3 will be untouched. There is a small, nasty ground floor extension to the east side of the building which will be knocked down and all the new build, which looks very modern and not mock Georgian will be over this demolition and the existing surface car park.

Can you give a link please, I'm struggling to find it.
This page allows you to search for any planning application, including plans (where available) by entering the reference number:
http://publicaccess.preston.gov.uk/portal/servlets/ApplicationSearchServlet
This is the page for the proposed boutique hotel:
http://publicaccess.preston.gov.uk/portal/servlets/ApplicationSearchServlet?PKID=89631

This page allows you to search for any planning application, including plans (where available) by entering the reference number:
http://publicaccess.preston.gov.uk/portal/servlets/ApplicationSearchServlet
This is the page for the proposed boutique hotel:
http://publicaccess.preston.gov.uk/portal/servlets/ApplicationSearchServlet?PKID=89631
!

Sorry, but this link takes me to 26, Thorntrees Ave in Lea!

Tark, go to this website http://publicaccess.preston.gov.uk/portal/servlets/ApplicationSearchServlet and enter this 06/2010/0498 into the reference field. Should pop up for you then.

I think it looks good overall, the rooms that will have the "bow" at the back look like they could be nice!

Looks like Preston Vision are having trouble finding public money to subsidise them: http://www.lep.co.uk/news/lep-business/talks_to_find_vision_cash_1_928158

Sorry, but this link takes me to 26, Thorntrees Ave in Lea!
You're welcome... it works on mine lol.

Some more images of the City Mission proposal.

http://publicaccess.preston.gov.uk/portal/servlets/AttachmentShowServlet?ImageName=108668

http://publicaccess.preston.gov.uk/portal/servlets/AttachmentShowServlet?ImageName=108670

http://publicaccess.preston.gov.uk/portal/servlets/AttachmentShowServlet?ImageName=108671

Thanks for posting those :)

The only problem with building such a decent building on this junction is that it makes you realise what an ugly part of town that is :ohno:

That looks bloody spectacular. Breathtaking.

Be a little happier when they give us some textures and an idea of the cladding quality, but the massing is ace and finally a building that says 'city' within its design!!! I really like the cross element, both internally and externally - its refreshing to see a place of worship incorporated into a new development (even if its just to replace one). Bring it on!!

Loyal Prestonian's uploads come as X X X on my browser.
Is it me?

Loyal Prestonian's uploads come as X X X on my browser.
Is it me?

I was seeing :redx: but now they're showing again.

Loyal Prestonian's uploads come as X X X on my browser.
Is it me?

Seem to be working for me. I can't decide as to whether that massing is good or overpowering. A little bit of both I think.

Incidently, I had a good day out yesterday. Visited the new Rock development in Bury, which mainly resulted in me and my wife saying to each other "so, how did they manage to do this here?" i.e. build one large, mixed use development of retail, leisure and residential with one developer. Only costs £1 to park on Sundays, plus you have a number of nearby attractions for non-retail diversions open on Sundays. (Not the council run museum sadly) The development has been well integrated into the rest of the town centre and by and large the rest seems to be surviving well, with the Millgate shopping centre still being busy. I intend going back again on a market day and it is a cracking alternative destination to Manchester.

I note that there is no change to the transport provision, Bury's bus station being large in numbers of stops but little else and whilst next door to the Metrolink, remains on the edge of the retail centre. Whether the lack of facilities at the "Interchange" counts as "downgrading" is unlikely as it was always like that! :nuts:

I think the massing on the proposed building is pretty good. The devil will be in the detail!

I have seen The Rock development on the Manchester forum. It looks pretty interesting. Is it similar to Liverpool One at all? I must visit at some point. Never thought I would want to visit Bury, lol!

Its a quality development. I'd happily see something like it built in Preston.

I have seen The Rock development on the Manchester forum. It looks pretty interesting. Is it similar to Liverpool One at all? I must visit at some point. Never thought I would want to visit Bury, lol!

Kind of, albeit on a smaller scale. It consists of two streets meeting at a large square and is anchored by a large M&S and Debenhams. Also has a small park off to one side. Worth a look.

24th November has been named as the decision date for Tithebarn... although I suspect that there will be further delays on that.

Off topic to what you fella's are currently talking about but I caught a coach to Blackpool last night and have to say I was impressed with Preston Bus Station. Over the years it's grown on me, perhaps it could do with a bit of colour at ground level but the structure itself is impressive.

I think in the years to come you could regret demolishing it.

Off topic to what you fella's are currently talking about but I caught a coach to Blackpool last night and have to say I was impressed with Preston Bus Station. Over the years it's grown on me, perhaps it could do with a bit of colour at ground level but the structure itself is impressive.

I think in the years to come you could regret demolishing it.

Don't know about that pal.

Personally I think it's a hole.

http://www.lep.co.uk/webimage/development_5_1_1047469!image/976901530.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_595/976901530.jpg

A big name supermarket has been signed up to fill a run down part of Preston city centre – if the developer behind it can win a bitter feud to get work started.

The Brookhouse Group said it would be in a position to “move quickly” to get work started on its plans for a supermarket, hotel and offices on the Horrockses Quarter between Queen Street and Church Street in Avenham, if it secures planning permission.

But, its hopes of getting the approval from Preston Council’s planning committee have been struck a blow after it ruled that the proposed development did not fit its Local Plan, the blueprint by which all schemes in the city centre are judged.

It did this after taking legal advice following a complaint from Countryside Properties, the developer which has approved plans to develop the site with an 18-storey apartment block on a neighbouring site.

Mike Nuttall, a group surveyor at Brookhouse, said the issue stemmed from a road which it plans to run through the Countryside site onto Church Street.

He said: “The application we have in is only in outline form at present but, if it secures approval, we will immediately follow it up with a full, detailed application as we have a supermarket occupier ready to come in.

“I cannot say which operator it is, but we have been given assurances they are ready to move.”

He added that Brookhouse had submitted its argument as to why its plans should fall within the Local Plan which is now being looked at by the council’s planning officers ahead of the committee’s meeting in September.

The surveyor said: “That justification is now being wrestled with and we wait to see what recommendation they put before the committee.”

Chris Hayward, the council’s city planning officer, said no decision had yet been taken on what the recommendation would be, but confirmed the Brookhouse scheme was “a departure” from the Local Plan.

He said: “We did not do this originally when the application was submitted last year because we took the view that it did accord with the development plan because the site is allocated.

“However, we have sought advice from counsel on this matter and other matters having received late objections and advice from the adjoining landowner Countryside Properties, we have been advised to advertise it as a departure.”

A 41-page report, published in November, on the latest application by Brookhouse included a letter of support from Edwin Booth, the chairman of Preston-based supermarket chain Booths, which has an option to take a store in the Countryside scheme.

http://www.lep.co.uk/news/lep-business/superstore_earmarked_for_city_battleground_1_1047470

Nice view of the Linen Buildings on that render too.

I wonder what happened to those?

Apparently the Linen Buildings are still on the cards in the long term. 'Officially' construction has started in the same way the Whittingham Hospital housing development did, by doing demolition work and building an access route. This means that their planning permission window will not expire.

As for the Horrockses Quarter, it looks like they've ditched their attempt to make a more pedestrian friendly development. If anyone else remembers, a couple of years ago, they released a massing render for a much denser scheme. However, this recent one in the LEP looks much more like the original plan... without the tower :( Looks like Brookhouse are trying their luck in tougher times, when the council will be under more pressure to settle for lower standards in order to spur redevelopment. Tesco have been linked to this scheme on a number of occasions. I really hope this isn't the case.

Just looking at the Ipswich Dock Regeneration on the main page.

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q315/Elmeister/regattaquay.gif http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q315/Elmeister/3towers.gif

This is just what our docks could have done with rather than those shitty apartments we have been lumbered with.

Can this city get anything right?

Don't know about that pal.

Personally I think it's a hole.

The Preston Bus Station is a building I've had strong feelings about for most of my life, but I've never been sure which side of the fence I sit. As a child, I met all of the people involved with the creative side of it. Yet in 1984 in a Building Science lecture at Sheffield University's School of Architecture I was (rightly, from the photographic evidence) advised that glare will de/mis/un/clarify the presentation of the information presented. All the information boards above the 'gates' initially had back lit fluoro bulbs which counteracted natural daylight behind, making them readable to the natural eye, but these bulbs were never replaced when they wore out, so by 1980ish when my Building Science lecturer visited the building and took photos of the info on view for the user it indeed looked shit. As the only Prestonian in the lecture group, I made effort to help the lecturer understand that it was not a design error, but a maintenance issue. As far as I know, the bulbs behind the designed departure display boards have not been replaced since 1970.
Put simply, in 1984, I had a architecture lecturer telling me not to design a building like Preston Bus Station from a Building Science Lecturer's point of view. It wasn't his fault that the maintenance manual was totally ignored. PBC did, totally. That's why the stairwells always stank of piss.
On the other hand, I ask any of you to nominate a better looking car park? Ok _ I'll push it! Nominate a visually better overground car park since 1967 in the UK?

At the same time as my Building Science lecturer was slating Preston Bus Station, I openly asked all to name a better bus station. Anywhere in the world? They couldn't, and didn't even try. Indeed, at the time, architects were (and still are) wrestling with shithead briefs that ask them to put multi-story car parks above ground, rather than below, where they belong.

My God, it's 15 years ago since as part of my MSc in Urban Renewal that I saw an underground BICYCLE park for 1,500 bikes in Tillberg (Holland) with an attendant to do bike repairs - oh, and it's near the station.

Too late to rant more!

At the same time as my Building Science lecturer was slating Preston Bus Station, I openly asked all to name a better bus station.

Lancaster? Chorley? :nuts:

My God, it's 15 years ago since as part of my MSc in Urban Renewal that I saw an underground BICYCLE park for 1,500 bikes in Tillberg (Holland) with an attendant to do bike repairs - oh, and it's near the station.

I saw a similar multi-storey one in Amsterdam, right next to the main bus, rail, tram, and metro interchange. Now there is a city that has got its public transport bob on :)

That multi-storey bike park next to Amsterdam is awesome. I remember coming out of the station and just being abit gobsmacked. Its not something you expect to see coming from the UK! Then again the culture over there promotes bike usage (mostly because its flat).

Tesco in the city centre, please no! Hopefully they refuse it due to extra traffic like Ikea. I though there was going to be a Tesco in Cottam?

Tesco in the city centre, please no! Hopefully they refuse it due to extra traffic like Ikea. I though there was going to be a Tesco in Cottam?

Um, so by that logic they should surely refuse ANY supermarket/retailer?? :ohno: Who would you like to see there, Sainsbury's? Asda? I'd say Waitrose if the Capitol Centre wasn't on the cards! :)

Yes I would refuse any supermarket. I though what we were getting was a joined up sort of extension of the city centre. Instead we are getting another massive retail shed. I wouldn't object to a Tesco Metro in the city centre. However I feel that Supermarkets should not be in city centres, they are massive, they are generally ugly, they kill off retail centres and can you imagine all the traffic that it will chuck on the Ringroad. People don't use the bus if they are going to do their weekly shop.

Yes I would refuse any supermarket. I though what we were getting was a joined up sort of extension of the city centre. Instead we are getting another massive retail shed. I wouldn't object to a Tesco Metro in the city centre. However I feel that Supermarkets should not be in city centres, they are massive, they are generally ugly, they kill off retail centres and can you imagine all the traffic that it will chuck on the Ringroad. People don't use the bus if they are going to do their weekly shop.

That's a shame. I really miss the Asda that used to be in the Fishergate Centre after all these years. I've lived in the city (town) centre all my life and supermarkets do offer a one-stop shop which is now not available to me unless I drive out to the suburbs (Lidl doesn't count). As a single working male, I know I can get most of what I need in the city centre (except for the variety in tinned food supermarkets offer), but I'd have to have a canvass hand-pulled shopping cart to go round all the shops to get all the stuff I want and still would not find the variety I can get in Booths in Penwortham. The Captain forgets that there are increasing numbers of people living in city centres across the country these days - even in Preston - (Gold Thread works, Cubic, student residences, many conversions from Victorian 'houses' to offices back to nice flats) etc. Tesco Metros do not offer the variety 'proper' supermarkets do, and their prices reflect a serious premium. The increasing inner city populations should demand a need for city centre supemarkets and because of the high bulk / low value nature of their wares; even a 600 metre walk home (and then up the lifts in the high rise accommodation) with more than 4 plastic carrier bags full of food to stock domestic fidges and freezers almost impossible.
As a for example, a supermarket with underground carparking for over 200 cars could occupy a footprint of under 35,000sq.ft (not sure if this works for a mid-size supermarket). If such a facility was available to me off Queen St, I'd be well suited. As would 1,000s of others in the city centre.
Cpt Jason is quite wrong to suggest (my interpretation on his post) that only suburban dwellers should have relatively convenient access to a supermarket. Certainly, I know that if I want to do a one-stop food shop at decent prices from my dwelling in the city centre, I have to do a multimile drive out to the suburbs to get what I want.
Yes, I could 'shop' on-line, but then I'll miss all the in-store bargains: and all the social interaction that goes with the 'live' shopping experience.
I understand supply and demand Captain; so to Planning Legislate against all inner city supermarkets seems very unfair.

As a for example, a supermarket with underground carparking for over 200 cars could occupy a footprint of under 35,000sq.ft (not sure if this works for a mid-size supermarket).

It would, my parents in Winchester have a Waitrose near to them that almost exactly fits the above description, it also contains their doctor's surgery, a Boots, a Costa Coffee and around 8 small apartments.

I used ASDA, Tesco, Sainsburys and Morrisons at the various times they were based in our city centre. It was especially convenient when the supermarket was located almost underneath the bus station. Tark is right that a living, thriving city centre should be a place where people go to buy food, as much as any other item, and in order to reduce my carbon footprint, I should be able to buy all the food I need without having to use my car, city workers should also be able to pick up good healthy food on their way home from work.

Blackburn's Morrisons is right next to the bus station there.

Blackburn's Morrisons is right next to the bus station there.

Well that's something to aspire to.

No need for a full-scale supermarket in any city centre, the likes of Tesco Metro do a pretty good job at providing the necessities.

Just some updates on the trams from todays LEP, courtesy of the wonderful Mr Coates:

- The first route has been unveiled and has gone in for planning. The route follows the Longridge line from J61A as we expected, but instead of continuing to the Miley tunnel, it will come off the old line at Deepdale and then follow Deepdale Road and into the city centre.
- The demonstrator line is now apparently up and running.
- The new line into town, to be named the Guild Line, has gone in for planning.
- The owners of Deepdale Retail Park, as well as Lend Lease are now in talks with Trampower about stops at their respective developments

Sounds like things are moving quite steadily :)

Just some updates on the trams from todays LEP, courtesy of the wonderful Mr Coates:

- The first route has been unveiled and has gone in for planning. The route follows the Longridge line from J61A as we expected, but instead of continuing to the Miley tunnel, it will come off the old line at Deepdale and then follow Deepdale Road and into the city centre.
- The demonstrator line is now apparently up and running.
- The new line into town, to be named the Guild Line, has gone in for planning.
- The owners of Deepdale Retail Park, as well as Lend Lease are now in talks with Trampower about stops at their respective developments

Sounds like things are moving quite steadily :)

Excellent news, I really hope this comes of, it's a project that could be rolled out through alot of the UK's cities and larger towns.

This is worth a read in connection with these plans: http://www.raib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/071127_R412007_Blackpool.pdf

Here's the BBC news report on the incident: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/lancashire/6300113.stm

This fascinating interview gives a really detailed insight into Trampower's thinking - how the whole thing will work, how costs get worked out, etc: http://www.pteg.net/NR/rdonlyres/ED820DBC-1FC3-4F6F-B70A-49BDD404D0C5/0/Day3Session1Transcriptapprovedfinal.pdf

Looks like Buckshaw Village railway station will be starting work in September:

http://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/Press-Releases/WORK-TO-START-SOON-ON-NEW-STATION-153e/SearchCategoryID-5.aspx

Thanks to WatcherZero on the Manchester forum for spotting this.

There's some 'technology' issue which I don't understand as to why the demonstrator trams can't go through the Miley. But using the tunnel is certainly part of their longer term plans. The Preston Underground!
Anyone had a look at the demonstrator - and if it is up and running, why hasn't it had masses of LEP coverage yet?

The bloody monstrosity that's appearing on Fox Street now the scaffold has come down on the new hotel. Paper thin design with no molding to make shadows on the elevation as the sun moves; just a really naff pattern of disparate materials. Shocking.

The now exposed elevation to Ringway is equally apauling.
Signature Shite.

The now exposed elevation to Ringway is exqually apauling.
Signature Shite.

I know :( I'm really disappointed with this. I'm hoping the ground level retail units will improve the overall look of the building, but I'm not counting on it. Still, its better than the blank concrete wall that was there before. Hopefully phase 2 will make up for it.

It looks like the student block next to the hotel has been given planning approval. So hopefully we'll see some proper images soon.

Brookhouse's Horrocks' Quarter has been given the go ahead too. Looks like a lot of it is subject to linking with the Linen Buildings development (if that ever gets off the ground)
http://www.lep.co.uk/news/lep-business/feud_reignited_by_plans_green_light_1_1493568

Some amendments to Crystal House planned EDIT - don't bother, it's just a door being changed. Must read before posting, can't seem to delete posts!

Reference number 06/2010/0572
Application Type Amendment following grant of planning permission
Site Address Crystal House

Birley Street

Preston

Lancashire

PR1 2AQ


Description Amendment to install a door on Birley Street elevation of previously approved conversion of podium to 4 Class A1 retail units (including retention of existing Class A3 unit) and re-cladding of podium and tower with ceramic cladding and curtain wall system and erection of 2no. plant and equipment rooms on roof of podium (revised scheme to previous approved 06/2000/0860 for part rebuilding and re-cladding) (planning approval 06/2004/0102) (non-material amendment not subject to consultation)
Parish No description.
Ward Town Centre
Valid Date 10/08/2010
Decision Approval of amended plans
Decision Date 26/08/2010
Committee Type Delegated
Committee Date
Agent Name Mr Paul Tracey, Savills
Case Officer Mr T Wiggans
Agent Telephone 0161 277 7290
Applicant Name RReef UK
Agent Address Fountain Court

68 Fountain Street

M2 2FE


Applicant Address 1 Appold Street

London

EC2A 2UU

Someone quoted my photos of Ipswich docks, how awesome for me! There's no need to be jealous, most of that went bust in the credit crunch. There's still a big concrete skeleton, but a new construction company have put up boardings so things may have started moving again.

Just been reading the business section of the LEP site. Looks like the Holiday Inn is due for a refurbishment. I'm hoping that will include an external refresh... hopefully a lot better than their last effort where they reclad a single wall :ohno:
I'm very fond of that building, but its looking very tired these days and is in dire need of a new lease of life.

I think the only major external change for the HI is replacing the signage with the new corporate branding. There is a planning application somewhere for this.

^Pretty disappointing, but not unexpected I suppose.

Brookhouse plans for Queens Retail Park got the go-ahead today. I reckon it will be a while before we see any movement though.

http://www.urbanrealm.co.uk/news/2513/Stride_Treglown_win_Preston_tower_approval.html
Check out the link for the best image of the new student tower to date. One the one hand, it's a shame it's being used for student accommodation however, student digs seem to be getting trendier and it will help attract more bars, eateries, shops etc to that area so it can only be good news.

Makes the er.... Fox st development to the left look even shitter! :|

I'm not sure if anyone has posted about this before, but I noticed a render on the Woods Association site of the scheme across the road.

http://www.woodassoc.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/Corporation-Street-12.jpg

can someone tell me where the student tower is located and where the mcaleer & rushe project is too. i'm a bit confused as to the precise sites they occupy in preston.

The student tower is located on the southern side of the Ringway at the junction with Corporation Street, on the site of a church. The McAleer and Rushe project is also located on the junction of Ringway and Corporation Street, but on the northern side of the Ringway on a site that is currently occupied by a Staples, a bed shop and a surface car park.

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?client=firefox-a&hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=53.759092,-2.704149&spn=0.001443,0.005284&t=h&z=18

The Wood Associate project is featured on the McAleer and Rushe website so perhaps something will come of it - just hopefully in a more impressive form. The student tower shows something that looks like a quality development is possible in Preston!

I've updated the projects list on the front page if people fancying taking a look. I'll be posting the link in my signature again along with the update message (now my dissertation is done! :D ). As well as adding new projects, I've also deleted a lot of the old crap that has been floating around for a long time with no movement, an example being FG2.
I usually update the projects list by trawling back through the main thread and picking up on anything that has arisen. However, due to time constraints I only got as far back as May this time. So if anyone can think of anything I've missed, please let me know :) I know I've left out the trams project and I couldn't find an image for the Ribblesdale Place hotel proposal. I'm hoping to fix them.

http://www.stridetreglown.co.uk/news/842-planning-permission-granted-for-student-residences-in-preston.html
A couple of images and a video of how the church part of the scheme should look.

I can't recall off the top of my head, but is there still space left behind the first phase that has been built? Or is that car parking space/access? It would be nice to eventually see a similiar sized building go up behind the brick one to great a trio of new builds, as the balance with just the pair is a little off. But I'd imagine there isn't enough space left behind now.

Im sure it mentioned that the carpark plot next door wasnt being built on any time soon. The student block actually has windows facing onto the carpark. Normally they wouldnt be allowed as if in the future the carpark was built on then the windows would be totally blocked. However it was something like there is an old burial ground below the carpark so the council figured that it would never be built on!

Well, I reckon the death of Tithebarn has finally been announced, much to the obvious joy of the usual suspects.

http://www.lep.co.uk/news/cash_fears_for_new_bus_station_1_1520547

Interesting to note today that the Campaign for Better Transport has published a report rating 19 cities in terms of car dependence and public transport. The city that came top was Nottingham, the overview being:

Nottingham came top of the cities surveyed due to scoring well in the majority of the indicators measured. It ranked highly for factors such as bus patronage, satisfaction with bus services and low car use for the school run. As well as having an efficient bus service, the new expanding tram system is now used by 10 million passengers a year. Other positive moves include improving accessibility, routing buses on uncongested bus only roads and smart ticketing. Future plans include extending the tram systems and modernising the existing rail network.


What caught my eye was the "bus patronage" "satisfaction with bus services" and "efficient bus services. Given the constant bleats from a certain person about the "downgrading of Preston's Bus Station" I thought "well, what does Nottingham have? The answer is two bus stations with a total of 22 bays.

One bus station is located under a multi-storey car park and a short walk from the city centre, the other is on the otherside of the much larger city centre. So, I would have to say that demolishing an 80 bay station and replacing with a 30-odd bay station in a town smaller than Nottingham could not be consider "downgrading" by any stretch of the imagination.

Anyway, it looks like Preston will remain stuck with a ludicrously over-sized, inefficient bus station and the car park on top will remain under-utilised! Sad, but there we go....

Now, I'm off to fill in the Campaign for Better Transport survey....

It's not over til the fat pram-faces sing!

I usually update the projects list by trawling back through the main thread and picking up on anything that has arisen.

Argh - 12 years since the Tithebarn started - no wonder that's not been updated ... this IS Preston ... :ohno:

I have a meeting coming up with the powers that be regarding Winckley Square very shortly. It's my intention to make them very aware that there's no point employing (ie. spending another penny of taxpayers' money) on this till locals' and other significant objectors' views are taken on board. In pre-meeting meetings with other consultants involved with Coopers' shockingly awful (planning approved, but now unfunded) scheme, I got the feeling that some of the other consultants involved thought, like everybody born and raised in Preston, that Coopers' scheme was shite; 'allegedly'. [just in case]
It's fun to be asked to these cost-cutting meetings if, in the current economic climate, it might actually lead to something that a majority can actually agree to. I'll try to say more when I can.

Argh - 12 years since the Tithebarn started - no wonder that's not been updated ... this IS Preston ... :ohno:

Every time I update that list, I look at Tithebarn and wonder how much longer it will be there. Looking back, its a shame to think how many decent developments have made it onto that list and then not come to fruitition... the Royal Lock and FG2 come to mind.

Coatsie pm'd me the link to one of his articles published today about how Brookhouse and Countryside have now formed an alliance in developing the area between Avenham and Church Street. It all sounds very promising. This quote got my hopes up:

“They are ready to start and so are we.” - Brookhouse spokesperson

Here is the article:
http://www.lep.co.uk/news/lep-business/feuding_developers_call_truce_in_war_over_city_site_1_1540741

Found this smaller but clearer than LEP image of the police station redevelopment.
http://www.thebusinessdesk.com/assets/_files/cached/img/310x209/jun_10/businessdesk__1276004519_preston.jpg?access=604T776T840

In pre-meeting meetings with other consultants involved with Coopers' shockingly awful (planning approved, but now unfunded) scheme, I got the feeling that some of the other consultants involved thought, like everybody born and raised in Preston, that Coopers' scheme was shite; 'allegedly'. [just in case]

This is the problem - they serve us up a mess of pottage, then hype it to the extent that we end up selling our birthright. How on earth can Preston people trust any consultants if they do not act openly and honestly on these issues? They don't have to live with the consequences, we do.

It seems the cold water of the recession is finally cooling down the boom-fuelled fevered fantasies of some of Preston's leaders. If only they'd listened to locals earlier, on the bus station in particular, we might perhaps now have more to show for 12 years of Tithebarn planning. Instead they went for 'all or nothing', and surprise surprise, it looks like we're getting nothing...

I like the Police HQ scheme, it looks nice.. has a slight bit of height to it so will no doubt help bulk up the Ringway. Also it's massing relates well to the apartment block running parallel to it so they should sit nicely beside each other.

As for the Tithebarn, is it not time that the industry realised that perhaps masterplans are not the way forward anymore? How many have crumbled to nothing after years and years of consultations and what not? It is time for a new way of thinking regarding such things. Rome wasn't built in a day, neither was Preston - So why was there a need to revamp it with one massive project?

How on earth can Preston people trust any consultants if they do not act openly and honestly on these issues? They don't have to live with the consequences, we do.

The C&S engineer in question lives 50m from Winckley Square, so does care about the consequences. He was engaged in this capacity and has a mortgage to pay. Should he not have accepted the work offered on moral grounds?

it looks like we're getting nothing...

Not true. We will be left with a totally oversized bus station with an under-utilised car park on top.

He was engaged in this capacity and has a mortgage to pay. Should he not have accepted the work offered on moral grounds?

You're right Tark that financial self-interest can have a big bearing on whether people voice their true professional opinion or not.

Luckily enough people were vociferous about the ridiculous plans for Winckley square, so if one person's (as you have suggested/alleged) silence on this question was bought, it did not make much difference.

The larger point is that if we do employ consultants, we do need them to be able to be honest and speak freely and accurately without fear on such crucial issues.

The strange culture of breathless hype and paranoid secrecy fostered by the (mis)leaders of our city's redevelopment has to change, it's getting us nowhere.

You're right Tark that financial self-interest can have a big bearing on whether people voice their true professional opinion or not.

Luckily enough people were vociferous about the ridiculous plans for Winckley square, so if one person's (as you have suggested/alleged) silence on this question was bought, it did not make much difference.

The larger point is that if we do employ consultants, we do need them to be able to be honest and speak freely and accurately without fear on such crucial issues.

The strange culture of breathless hype and paranoid secrecy fostered by the (mis)leaders of our city's redevelopment has to change, it's getting us nowhere.

Although the position of consultants is unbiased, they make judgments based on facts and research, not knee-jerk reactions like many locals would, purely expressing their own opinions based on self interest.
And I disagree with the notion of secrecy. Isn't the fact that Winckley Square and the Flag Market plans were significantly altered based on public consultation proof of that?

The Winckley Square and Flagmarket plans were significantly altered on the basis of public outcry, rather than public consultation. If the public had been involved at an earlier stage, this might have been avoided. Similarly with Tithebarn. It's now looking like all 3 are either significantly delayed or cancelled altogether. Excluding the public from the initial decision making has turned out to be a false economy.

Look River, you can't go tarring all "consultants" with the same brush. He was asked to examine the ground conditions around The Syke (the culverted stream that flows below the Square), and produced a report from the boreholes taken there. He's a consultant engineer ffs , and nothing to do with the design - so why should he stuff his fee cos the now fired Coopers did a shit design? Blaming "all consultants" for stuff in Preston is like blaming the bricklayers for the shit design of the ridiculously expensive British Library. If anything does happen in Winckley Square, at least his consultancy work will be of use in the preparation of any furure improvement works. Jeez.

Tark, stop trying to bring rational argument and fact into the discussion, we all know that Riversider completely resents and ignores any such thing. I wish he'd offer some of the alternatives that the public have proposed in place of Tithebarn, Winckley Square and the Flag Market. Then again, I have lost count of the times I have asked for such information, the reality is because the only response you'd get is "eeee, nowt wants changin' 'ere lad"

Someday Preston might actually find out the 21st century has occurred, in the meantime it is stuck firmly in the 1970s I'd say!

Tark - I was responding to what you originally posted:

In pre-meeting meetings with other consultants involved with Coopers' shockingly awful (planning approved, but now unfunded) scheme, I got the feeling that some of the other consultants involved thought, like everybody born and raised in Preston, that Coopers' scheme was shite; 'allegedly'. [just in case]

Note the plural use of the word 'consultants' twice in this para, and the word 'involved'.

Now you say it was just one guy, and that he was not involved in the original planning.

(BTW I don't think you've done him any favours by giving out enough more than enough detail to identify him, particularly as he is not part of this discussion and therefore not able to put his own version of events forward and accurately represent his own views.)

Your original posting gives the clear impression that consultants involved in the planning for Winckley Square believed there were fundamental problems with the plans, yet remained silent.

There have been a couple of articles in the local press recently about council employees painting road markings in blatantly ridiculous places, because they were following the plans they were given to the letter. These workers received a barrage of criticism because people expect them to use their brains and speak up when the instructions they are given are obviously stupid. I think the same principle should apply to people with engineering or architecture degrees.

Jonh - as you well know, the public were never engaged in the process of producing the original ideas for Tithebarn, Winckley Square, the Ribble Barrage or the Flagmarket. If we had been, perhaps we'd have come up with plans that did not fail so miserably.

The reason for Preston's abject catalogue of stagnation is not public resistance to change, it is the utter lack of interest on the part of the decision makers in involving the public in the destiny of our own city, leading to plans that don't fit with what is needed, that contain fatal flaws, or that are just downright stupid.

Jonh - as you well know, the public were never engaged in the process of producing the original ideas for Tithebarn, Winckley Square, the Ribble Barrage or the Flagmarket. If we had been, perhaps we'd have come up with plans that did not fail so miserably.


Can't speak for you, but I am not qualified to have an input into any major redevelopment initial planning. That's why people who are qualified do it before public consultaions occur. Tithebarn and Flagmarket have all had public displays enabling people to judge and pass comment on the designs put forward. (Which I did for Tithebarn - did you?) I would be very interested if someone could provide the numbers of "ordinary members of the public" who took the chance to comment and give feedback on these schemes and then we can judge where the "utter lack of interest" really is. (I seem to remember objections about Winckley Square being a minute percentage of the Preston population)

Can't comment on the other two, obviously the Winckley Square design was competed, if a planning app went in - I think it did - then the opportunity for public feedback was there.

And before the predictable response occurs, I have given negative feedback to 2 planning applications in Leyland which were subsequently rejected. Not solely because of me I am sure, but I had the freedom to give comment in opposition. I have also commented in support of the Waitrose application, simply for the selfish reason that I love Waitrose and want one nearby. (And I can afford to shop in Tesco so can afford Waitrose before THAT gets any sneering comments!!)

Point is, all this crap about "secrecy" and "not involving the public" is just that. Crap.

This is a very old fashioned out dated model you describe Jonh: Let the 'experts' decide everything behind closed doors, then when they have come up with their ideas, put it out to a 'consultation' where it is far too late for the public to make much, if any difference apart from to block the development altogether.

This is not a model that works in the modern age, if it ever worked at all, and it's at the heart of why Preston has faced so many stupid planning decisions, and suffered so much stagnation.

Even the ConDem government is ahead of your thinking Jonh, with their talk of the 'Big Society' and the involvement of local people in decision making. Unfortunately at present in Preston it remains just that, talk.

Preston needs to catch up with modern practice, and find democratic, inclusive methods of engaging it's population in planning for the destiny of their own city. When people can be convinced that their contribution makes a genuine difference, rather than merely being a token consultation, you'd find that interest and participation leaps.

I'm a little disappointed that you think I would stoop to personal jibes about where you shop. I don't think I've given you any reason to believe I would in any of my previous posts, and I shop mainly at LIDL for purely economic reasons.