Who are they? Architectural fans, or people who actually use the building? The former certainly seem to get far more concern than the latter (speaking as a former actual user of the bus station).

Can't you be both? I was before I left Preston.

As was I (before I too moved away).

So am I actually (why else would I be on this forum?) but because my opinion is "I don't like the Bus Station as a building" my opinion is generally rejected by the pro-architecture brigade. In particular, if any argument against the Bus Station is based on it's functionality from my experience using the facility, it is either dismissed or just ignored - one poster is particularly bad for this.

Jonathan Glancey once described Preston bus station as a 'baroque cathedral for buses' in the Guardian. I find it magnificent and uplifting in a town where the built environment is often rather drab: it is by far the best 20th century building in Preston.

I use the buses and the bus station regularly. It is neither dark nor claustrophobic (as has been claimed) and whilst it is certainly scruffy and unloved, a little maintenance and investment would put this right. Pedestrian walkways have been constructed across the apron so the underpasses need no longer be negotiated.

It is a pity that the local political community seem determined to have this modernist masterpiece demolished.

Jonathan Glancey once described Preston bus station as a 'baroque cathedral for buses' in the Guardian.

Yet, the bit for buses is just the glass bit at the bottom, should it not really be a baroque cathedral to cars and car owners? (If you are going to be stupid enough to use "baroque" in the same sentence as "Preston Bus Station")

I find it magnificent and uplifting in a town where the built environment is often rather drab: it is by far the best 20th century building in Preston.

If find the Harris magnificent and uplifting, but hey, whatever floats your boat. :nuts:

I use the buses and the bus station regularly. It is neither dark nor claustrophobic (as has been claimed)

You should try using the car park. it's not nearly as good as Tark makes out.

whilst it is certainly scruffy and unloved, a little maintenance and investment would put this right. Pedestrian walkways have been constructed across the apron so the underpasses need no longer be negotiated.

It's not nearly scruffy and unloved as some make out, there are far worse places in the country. Doesn't stop it being cold, dated and uninviting inside though.....

It is a pity that the local political community seem determined to have this modernist masterpiece demolished.

Yes, imagine. Wanting to create something that attracts people to Preston and bring some new employment to the area. The evil bastards. (Now cue some "retail jobs are not real jobs" are other total nonsense of people who love to berate the employed) Still, BAE Systems have done their bit for the "Keep Preston On Benefits" crew!

Well... that's Tithebarn done then.

Well... that's Tithebarn done then.

It certainly looks like it. I did suspect on a recent visit to the John Lewis website where there was no mention of the Preston store, but it was clearly public knowledge before today.

Reading the LEP comments which are mostly predicatable. I think the biggest laugh I have just had is Riversider's pathetic attempt to compare Preston with York! I think many York folk would find that very offensive! But most are the usual "eee, never wanted them posh shop 'ere" that just make me glad I've moved away!

Best comment on the LEP?

When Doktorb, River and Co have finished dancing on the grave and saying 'I told you so', I wonder what they're going to have left to come out with - heaven forbid they'd have anything constructive and viable

The answer to that is obvious! :lol:

Still, you will keep your precious bus station!! :lol:

Oh, and I can't see "economic issues" being the real reason for JL withdrawing. They are investing huge amounts in Waitrose (even near Preston) and still have a couple of large retail stores planned along with smaller formats. The JL in Reading has recently started a £2m refit. The attempts to blame BAE are pretty laughable too (though JL don't seem to be the one trying to make that float)

I got told off for taking photos of the Bus Station from the forecourt the other day. To be fair, it's pretty shit. Just reminds me of the Tricorn.

The Harris was cool though, Preston was less shit than I anticipated.

I got told off for taking photos of the Bus Station from the forecourt the other day. To be fair, it's pretty shit. Just reminds me of the Tricorn.

I think your opinion represents a silent majority of those from outside Preston. Many of those living outside of Preston championing the bus station are expats, whose positive view of the building contains the same motive as the locals - sentimentality.

Is Tithebarn totally dead then?

What next for Preston?

What next for Preston?

Mediocrity.

Is Tithebarn totally dead then?

What next for Preston?

Stick what's left of the budget on the Euromillions?

Another project cancelled!... (http://www.lep.co.uk/news/lep-business/tram_dream_blow_1_3947193)
Trampower are saying that they still want to go ahead with the full project, but the demonstrator line won't be going ahead. I'm not sure this is going to be feasible without any grant funding.

Is this where things start falling like dominos?

Is Tithebarn totally dead then?

What next for Preston?

Dead and buried. Hilarious seeing all those adamantly against Tithebarn expressing their "dismay" in a calculated display of hypocrisy.

What's next for Preston? Well, there may still be a big supermarket at Queen's Retail Park.

But no right minded developer would look twice now.

Some time in the future, I may bring my daughter back to see her birth town. Say it is 10 years time, I can be certain that:

There'll be no tram
M&S will be in the same store on Fishergate
The outdoor market will be rustier and still be selling cheap Chinese tat
The bus station will be half utilised
The bus station car park will be half empty, even on a busy Saturday
Er...
that's it...


Just remember, the above list is what a certain number of people WANT!! :lol:

Well, there we go. Nearly a month and no further posts. I think that sums up the "interest" in Preston! Sad, it had potential...now, no more...

Aye sad times indeed for development in Preston.

I was wondering if anyone had any pictures of the tower blocks on Moor Lane before they were pulled down or could say where they stood?

I could say where they stood, here (if the Google link works) http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=preston&ll=53.765666,-2.703822&spn=0.001532,0.004801&hnear=Preston,+Lancashire,+United+Kingdom&gl=uk&t=h&z=18&vpsrc=6

I have some photos of them being demolished somewhere. Pre-digital days!!

IBEH, there is a gallery of the demolition and redevelopment here:

http://www.prestonlancs.com/gallery/index.php?action=showgal&cat=1

Thanks Accura.

I could say where they stood, here (if the Google link works) http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=preston&ll=53.765666,-2.703822&spn=0.001532,0.004801&hnear=Preston,+Lancashire,+United+Kingdom&gl=uk&t=h&z=18&vpsrc=6

I have some photos of them being demolished somewhere. Pre-digital days!!

I've not really been round this part of Preston since these new student flats were developed. I think they look good - the fact that they are built straight onto the street adds to a feeling of density - something that there should be in the city centre.

I like how there seems to be just one terraced house remaining between the two different sets of blocks (4 Moor Lane). Does anyone know why this is still there when everything else seems to have been replaced?

Moor Lane is a much better place than it was 10 years ago, despite architecturally criminal additions such as Kopa Hall. There are now only fragments of what was once a very substantial council estate. UCLAN has developed a trend in recent years of buying up private (non-student) blocks of flats, so its possible in the future that they may do the same with the ones on the western side of Moor Lane.

Never noticed the lone terraced house! And we're still waiting for them to do something with that damned windmill!

Moor Lane is a much better place than it was 10 years ago, despite architecturally criminal additions such as Kopa Hall. There are now only fragments of what was once a very substantial council estate. UCLAN has developed a trend in recent years of buying up private (non-student) blocks of flats, so its possible in the future that they may do the same with the ones on the western side of Moor Lane.

Never noticed the lone terraced house! And we're still waiting for them to do something with that damned windmill!

It's interesting that while we have all been waiting for Tithebarn to happen over the last 10 years, the University has slowly developed a huge part of the city centre. There's not been anything particularly spectacular but I think it has definately improved that part of town and given it more of a city feel.

^Most definitely. While the university is far from perfect, it has turned a former slum into an area full of new life and activity.

At my age, (47) I just about remember the "slum clearances" on the west side of Moor Lane up to Plungy. For donkeys years, the old street patterns remained with smashed brick berms deliniating the former street patterns. It was pathetic really. The pace of redevelopment in Preston is still pretty much the same, and Top quality is something still very much lacking in the 'city'. The Moor Lane halls are, at best, average as architectural works I think, but they do have a little something that reminds me of inner suburban towns and cities in the Netherlands'; so they're certainly not all bad.
Anyone else been to the new Brockhole birdy Visitor Centre yet, and wants to record their opinions of it?

Anyway, moving along, let's have a bit of seasonal fun. The austerity measures are only going to get worse, one imagines, and the years of lack of vision and imagination in Preston hardly inspire hope for the future. But if banged in or started within the next 12 months, what 10 things would you like to see going on in and around Preston? I'll start, and in no particular order and I'm not excluding the completely fanciful or unaffordable, (mostly from ideas lots of folk have put forward in the last few years, but a few of my own too) - join in if you wish...

5 for Transport first:

HST2 from Scotland to London, with the vital Lancashire station at Preston around Red Scar.
The tram from Red Scar to Preston Station (through 'The Miley) with extensions to the docks, Bamber Bridge (via the old Lancs & Yorks line) and up Garstang Road. HST2 would allow capacity on existing lines for new or rebuilt stations on the current main and branch lines at places like Cottam, Barton, Galgate, Lancaster University.
An M6 junction just south of Garstang, obviating the need for the Broughton by-pass and lots of the arguments about what's right for the Whittingham Hospital buildings and issues connected with them.
Hydro-electric power produced by river management downstream of the 'Bullnose' of the docks on the Ribble. This would allow integrated public transport on Ribble on river-buses between the Capitol Centre and the docks, and much else besides.
A hovercraft service for passenges and some light freight linking Deeside / Liverpool / Southport / a possible branch route to the River Ribble management faciltiy just downstream of Preston docks / Lytham, Blackpool, Fleetwood-Heysham / Morecambe / Grange-over-Sands / Barrow. Such a route would do wonders for intra-regional tourism; think Merseyside's daily access to the Lake District and vice/versa - and points in between.
And 5 for Preston itself:

Pedestrianisaton of Fishergate from the Railway Station to The Minster: thus liberating tons of unneeded metal signage, railings, traffic lights etc cluttering up the pavements of our main shopping street. The public transport items mentioned above make this much more feasable. Then cover Fishergate with a glazed canopy allowing 24hr access, but to keep the rain off pedestrians.
A really high quality landmark tall building at least 30 stories high. Choice of two locations: to replace Cubic (Crystal House) or at the top of Brockholes Brow on the Deafway site.
A moderated Tithebarn scheme, keeping the Bus Station (and it's overhead car park) but with bus stands to the east side only, using the western aprons and site of St Johns Precinct to link through to the renewed Victorian Market halls (as per the BDP scheme)
Pope Benedict to declare St Walburge's a Catholic Cathedral.
North Korea to explode a nuclear bomb under the centre circle of Old Trafford and so Man U have to (somehow) play all their games at Deepdale and pay PNE rent of £5m a match to do so.
As you can see, as I've got to the end of my glass of wine I've actually only had 8 rational ideas before hope took over!

But it's been the case for at least 150 years that Preston's greatest advantage has been its geography on a national scale, and greatest hindrance is is its geography on a local scale. It's been the town's misfortune to have been represented by intellectual minnows for most of those 150 years, our current MP being no exception.

Over to you.

Nice idea Tark. Some boards have their predictions. Lets have our fantasy! Also in no particular order.

1) The complete redevelopment of New Hall Lane. Might be unpopular with some members *cough* but I would demolish the entire road, bar the odd building. I would then rebuilt it with a variety of apartment buildings, 3/4 stories in height, with decent public/private spaces behind them.

2) Develop Tithebarn 2, keeping the bus station but adding more of Church Street into the project

3) Creating of the central park area around the Ribble at Avenham/Miller Park. Townhouses and low rise apartments built on the South Ribble side. Think South Amsterdam style.

4) Tram link on the old Longridge line, from Redscar to the train station.

5) Redevelopment of Deepdale Retail Park. Develop it into its own district instead of a soulless shopping park. Mixture of public spaces, apartments, houses, leisure. Think Deepdale High Street opposed to Deepdale Retail Park

6) Unitary authority of Preston, South Ribble and Chorley. Bye Bye LCC.

7) Resiting or buring the Ringroad. Also have a competition to rename it :P

8) Create a new civic building/Library on Cheapside, getting rid of all the awful shite along there.

9)Redevelopment of the Docks into a leisure hub. Clean it out and have watersports on there. Also build and arena :P

10) Sink Blackpool into the sea. Nick Blackpool Tower, rebuild alittle bit taller at the west docks, paint it blue and call it Preston Tower.

That is all

What the hell... lets go wild:

1. Tram link from Redscar down the old Longridge line, to Preston station, and then down the old East Lancashire line to a Park and Ride at the Sainsbury's roundabout at Bamber Bridge.

2. Downgrade the Ringway from a dual carriageway to a wide road, but with enhanced pavements. Demolish the following buildings/sites:
- Staples
- Greyfriars/Job Centre
- Lowthian House
- Blockbusters/Aldi/Instore retail park
- Network Rail site
Create a new CBD in this area, anchored by an office tower in excess of 20-storeys, with a new square in front of County Hall built over the railway lines.

3. New bus station adjacent to the train station.

4. Creative leisure based masterplan for the docks.

5. Pedestrianise Fishergate (liking the canopy idea!)

5. Massive refurbishment of Preston station.

6. Extend the M65 around Penwortham and across the Ribble to the M55 (as was originally planned)

I'm liking a lot of the ideas proposed so far, especially with regards to the High Speed Rail, tram and local rail plans, which aren't really so far fetched are they?

I would add:

1. Demolition of DFS, Halfords, Pets at Home etc on the docks and replacement with high quality offices and apartment blocks, with at least two or three going above 20 floors. Increased leisure facilities (restaurants, bars, watersports) to be created alongside these. This would be just a 5 minute tram ride from town.

2. Creation of the CBD in the area outlined by Accura, again with at least one landmark building of height, visible from the West Coast mainline.

3. Use the pedestrianisation of the west side of the bus station to create a new tree lined pedestrian boulavard. Use some of the space to build a cinema, with apartments above.

4. Demolition of the St John's centre and replacement with open streets with space for small independent retailers and small offices.

5. Turn the former bus aprons into shops, bars and cafes. Light up the bus station at night to make this a feature and turn this end of town into an attractive, cultural quarter with restaurants, the cinema and guild hall/charter theatre to attract people in the evenings, not just clubs.

6. PNE to be promoted into the Premiership, leading to the top tier of the Invincibles Pavillion to be built (and filled by fans every week!).

7. Crystal House to be demolished and the flag market to be extended over to Church Street. This would create a great looking square as all of the other buildings facing onto the opened up square are far far far nicer.

LEP: Property Developer must pay £650,000 (http://www.lep.co.uk/news/lep-business/property_developer_must_pay_650_000_1_4097789)

It's good to see the council putting their foot down and ensuring Countryside pay up so that the Brookhouse Group development can go ahead. Hopefully the fact that Countryside have to make the payment anyway might incentivise them to go ahead with at least some of their planned development, or to sell the site to someone else who will do something with it.

7. Crystal House to be demolished and the flag market to be extended over to Church Street. This would create a great looking square as all of the other buildings facing onto the opened up square are far far far nicer.
... which was a major part of my final year Part II architectural thesis at Sheffield Uni in 1987! (I also totally redeveloped the quadrant between St George's Centre and Fishergate / Cheapside / Flag Market / Friargate with shopping and many mixed social and commercial uses - including cinemas!)

Lots of good ideas from Andy, Jason & Accura, many of which we agree on - keep them coming. And come on Riversider, join in; this is democratic local planning in action!

Quick question: is 2012 a guild year?

I remember it being so in 1972 and 1992.

Quick question: is 2012 a guild year?

I remember it being so in 1972 and 1992.

Shit Yeah - obviously all the marketing with the big G's around town isn't working on you, or you're taking the piss? I'm well noted for not dodging the humour bullet on occasion, but you've got me on this one.

LEP: Property Developer must pay £650,000 (http://www.lep.co.uk/news/lep-business/property_developer_must_pay_650_000_1_4097789)

It's good to see the council putting their foot down and ensuring Countryside pay up so that the Brookhouse Group development can go ahead. Hopefully the fact that Countryside have to make the payment anyway might incentivise them to go ahead with at least some of their planned development, or to sell the site to someone else who will do something with it.

Hmmm... I remember a time when it looked like the CP scheme was almost definitely going to go ahead, and Preston was going to get its first highrise in decades. How things change!

What we don't want is another Whittingham Hospital saga, which we have now been waiting 16 years to be properly developed since the developer made a 'technical start'. An abandoned Victorian hospital in beautiful parkland in a rural part of Preston is one thing. Having a vast industrial wasteland on the edge of the city centre that visitors into the city see every day is another.

Hmmm... I remember a time when it looked like the CP scheme was almost definitely going to go ahead, and Preston was going to get its first highrise in decades. How things change!

What we don't want is another Whittingham Hospital saga, which we have now been waiting 16 years to be properly developed since the developer made a 'technical start'. An abandoned Victorian hospital in beautiful parkland in a rural part of Preston is one thing. Having a vast industrial wasteland on the edge of the city centre that visitors into the city see every day is another.

I agree but at the same time we don't just want anything built. Those flats look pretty poor on the LEP website. Would you want to live there? I know I wouldn't - they look like the slums of the future to me!

As an incomer to Preston, though no longer a recent one, what has struck me is how poorly the 'architectural heritage' has been looked after. There still looks to be a lot worth saving and reusing / recycling though, in any redevelopment. Judging from old photos and exhibitions at the Harris over the years there was once much more. The town hall is only the most egregious example.

Most local people I've talked to about it don't 'see' the impact or the importance of buildings like the bus station. Familiarity makes them less novel and unique, I think. I'm glad that some of the proposals for redevelopment imagine keeping, modifying and re-using the bus station. Yes, I do like it; it was the first thing I noticed on my first visit here and it made me smile. I do know it's in the wrong place (for a bus station).

The Harris is a fine building but there are not dissimilar buildings in many places.

Shit Yeah - obviously all the marketing with the big G's around town isn't working on you, or you're taking the piss? I'm well noted for not dodging the humour bullet on occasion, but you've got me on this one.

I haven't visited Preston for over 10 years. I'm not taking the proverbial -honest.

Back in '92 when I worked at LCC, the climax of the '92 Guild was affected by a rainy summer.

The next guild in 2012 seemed so far away, but here we are.

All the best Prestoners!

Back in '92 when I worked at LCC, the climax of the '92 Guild was affected by a rainy summer.

The next guild in 2012 seemed so far away, but here we are.

All the best Prestoners!

Sorry Ash. It did indeed pee it down for most of the last Guild. I'd far rather it was held in May rather than the first week of September. By memory, not stats, the weather seems to be much more clement then.

Noticed this article the other day:

http://www.lep.co.uk/news/environment/plan_back_on_agenda_1_4117885
http://www.lep.co.uk/webimage/1.4117882.1325872549!image/1930072123.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_595/1930072123.jpg

I'm glad that this plan is still on agenda. I believe that now Tithebarn is no longer on the cards, focus can return to developing this end of the city centre, which was happening naturally until Tithebarn tried to counterbalance it (although I don't believe Riversider's theory that Tithebarn caused a development draught). Our city centre is too spread out, with too many lifeless vacuums in between 'anchors'.

And come on Riversider, join in; this is democratic local planning in action!

Yes, but if your proposals include commercial enterprises, then you are just fuelling the nasty capitalist monster. (Labour MPs and Trade Union leaders being dreadfully hard up and underpaid beings of course - cough, splutter!)

I don't know if my opinion will count given I no longer live locally, but:


Dump the tram idea. Even using disused rail lines, it'll still be hugely expensive and disruptive
Definitely pedestrianise Fishergate as far as is possible and that means NO traffic, including buses. I don't know what you'll do for the latter, array bus stops along Ringway or have a bus station hub at the rail station, don't know.
If you really must keep the bus station, then it needs total gutting. Make the inside airier and more inviting. Better quality flooring and lighting. Better cafes and shop provision. Get rid of the need for subways (see next point). Totally refurbish the car park, better floor sufacing with coloured parking bays and improved lighting. Completely remove the existing lift and stairwell and cut in new with wider, better lit stairs and lifts that service EVERY floor. Make pay on exit!
Demolish the St John Centre and make a landmark square between the market and bus station.
Refurbish the outdoor market hall, and do something to improve the indoor one.


I'm done for now!

Dump the tram idea. Even using disused rail lines, it'll still be hugely expensive and disruptive
Definitely pedestrianise Fishergate as far as is possible and that means NO traffic, including buses. I don't know what you'll do for the latter, array bus stops along Ringway or have a bus station hub at the rail station, don't know.
If you really must keep the bus station, then it needs total gutting. Make the inside airier and more inviting. Better quality flooring and lighting. Better cafes and shop provision. Get rid of the need for subways (see next point). Totally refurbish the car park, better floor sufacing with coloured parking bays and improved lighting. Completely remove the existing lift and stairwell and cut in new with wider, better lit stairs and lifts that service EVERY floor. Make pay on exit!
Demolish the St John Centre and make a landmark square between the market and bus station.
Refurbish the outdoor market hall, and do something to improve the indoor one.



I absolutely love all of these ideas -

As a heads up for those that weren't able to attend the council's recent Your City, Your Say events, they are still welcoming ideas through their website.

Here are details of the event (http://www.preston.gov.uk/thecouncil/consultations/city-say-listening-event/), LEP coverage of the event (http://www.lep.co.uk/news/keep_our_bus_station_where_it_is_1_4131641) and again (http://www.lep.co.uk/news/lep-business/let_s_talk_about_the_future_1_4118421), and also a direct link to the online survey (http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/yourcity).

New St in Birmingham is pedestrianised and is DEAD at night once the shops have shut. The only way pedestrianising Fishergate would be viable in Preston is if there are more bars, restaurants, coffee shops, a cinema etc dotted along and at either end to keep people there once the shops close. But I suspect the people of Preston would complain this would result in more crime...

If you really must keep the bus station, then it needs total gutting. Make the inside airier and more inviting. Better quality flooring and lighting. Better cafes and shop provision. Get rid of the need for subways (see next point). Totally refurbish the car park, better floor sufacing with coloured parking bays and improved lighting. Completely remove the existing lift and stairwell and cut in new with wider, better lit stairs and lifts that service EVERY floor. Make pay on exit!
Demolish the St John Centre and make a landmark square between the market and bus station.
Refurbish the outdoor market hall, and do something to improve the indoor one.


Good, JonH, we agree on some things, then!

Worst. Idea. Ever.

http://www.lep.co.uk/news/city_chief_admits_bus_station_axe_is_option_1_4262119

I didnt realise that Preston has turned into Detroit, demolishing buildings to save the council money. Replace it with a car park. Nothing says "Welcome to a total shithole" than a 700 space SURFACE carpark! Demolishing the bus station to make way for Tithebarn was acceptable, as it was being replaced. Demolishing it to replace it with nothing and no future plans is retarded!

Also Mothballing the Guild Hall? Now there is an idea, lets get rid of the only venue that can attract people into the city centre after hours that doesnt involve getting shit faced...

Maybe. But the uncharitable side of me wants to think "Ha, got what you deserved!!" Which isn't very nice I know, but the vehement anti-Tithebarn brigade do deserve a slap in the face of some sort.

There have been a couple of noteworthy stories over the last few weeks:

Plans submitted for 1,100 new houses in Cottam (http://www.thebusinessdesk.com/northwest/news/289709-hca-submits-outline-planning-for-cottam-hall-site.html?)

It would be good if the development at Cottom could be made to fund a new train station on the Blackpool to Preston line.

Enterprise zones to be set up at BAE's sites and Warton and Samlesbury (http://www.lep.co.uk/news/lep-business/public-meeting-call-for-enterprise-zone-plans-1-4311459)

This could be brilliant news for the area. I belive that there were proposals to build a retail park at one point - thank God that never went ahead! A centre for high-tech manufacturing jobs is exactly the sort of thing that Preston needs.

I was in Preston on Friday for the first time in a couple of years, although it was a rather brief visit and mainly spent in the bus station. I have never been a fan of the bus station, but as I was sat on my bus waiting for it to depart, I looked up at it and could only be impressed by the way it looked in the sun. Since the Tithebarn will not happen in its former guises, I can only think that a substantial refurbishment of the station and its surrounding area would be most beneficial for the town, along with some sort of link between the train station and bus station. I think with a good modern refurbishment would radically benefit the city, without the need of what was a generic, rather soulless masterplan.

There have been a couple of noteworthy stories over the last few weeks:

Plans submitted for 1,100 new houses in Cottam (http://www.thebusinessdesk.com/northwest/news/289709-hca-submits-outline-planning-for-cottam-hall-site.html?)

It would be good if the development at Cottom could be made to fund a new train station on the Blackpool to Preston line.

Enterprise zones to be set up at BAE's sites and Warton and Samlesbury (http://www.lep.co.uk/news/lep-business/public-meeting-call-for-enterprise-zone-plans-1-4311459)

This could be brilliant news for the area. I belive that there were proposals to build a retail park at one point - thank God that never went ahead! A centre for high-tech manufacturing jobs is exactly the sort of thing that Preston needs.

Thanks for keeping the news flow going! Its rather quiet in this thread these days. Great news about the Enterprise zones. Both BAE sites have already attracted a number of 'parasite' manufacturers, and this can only take that further.

I was in Preston on Friday for the first time in a couple of years, although it was a rather brief visit and mainly spent in the bus station. I have never been a fan of the bus station, but as I was sat on my bus waiting for it to depart, I looked up at it and could only be impressed by the way it looked in the sun. Since the Tithebarn will not happen in its former guises, I can only think that a substantial refurbishment of the station and its surrounding area would be most beneficial for the town, along with some sort of link between the train station and bus station. I think with a good modern refurbishment would radically benefit the city, without the need of what was a generic, rather soulless masterplan.

I too would like to see the Bus Station get some kind of grand refurbishment, but any masterplan, but it will only work if the surrounding buildings are dealt with. St John's, Preston Office Centre, the former Tradex/Sainsbury's building, and to some extent the Guild Hall complex completely destroy that area.

Another snippet of news about the CBD:

http://www.lep.co.uk/news/lep-business/office-quarter-deal-a-month-away-1-4311837

Sounds quite promising. I'm glad to see they are adopting more of a 'baby steps' approach to the masterplan rather than the all in one approach taken with Tithebarn.

I personally am finding this 'rainbow' thing eminating from the docks little more than a 'flatshine'. Nevertheless, wandering through the city centre at 7pm and again at 8.30pm last night, I did see quite a number of people taking photos of it - maybe some of them had even make a special trip to Preston to see it? That can only be a good thing. I'm still much more of a fan of the clearstory lights in the Harris.
Let's hope that other Guild functions this year cheer the town up a bit after lots of bad news in the last 2 - 3 years.

Sandown Court to get a reclad:

http://www.lep.co.uk/news/energy-giant-warned-not-to-ruin-landmarks-1-4376836

Tark, didn't your father design these buildings?

It is rather worrying that a city should be cherishing these buildings in terms of their aesthetic.

It is rather worrying that a city should be cherishing these buildings in terms of their aesthetic.

Yes Accura, he did.

And in their current condition, I can find empathy with Ferge's reply.

I must declare a personal interest in their future for a number of personal reasons, not least that I live in one of the blocks. In the interest of making up your own minds, below is the letter I sent to the planners, though due to a failure of communicatrion from the Sandown Management Company to it's residents, it reached the planners' desks after the official final submission date for public representations. I am glad that the Planner concerned did allow my representation into his thoughts as he made his report (even though it was late) and that there seems to me to be some acknowledgement of my representations into the descision notice which is viewable on line through the PCC planning portal.
[The two pics I inserted into the letter don't seem to be coming out on this repost]
:


Dear Mr #######,

Sandown Court; Application No 06/2012/0030

Further to our email correspondence of today’s date. I thank you for the opportunity to make a few comments on the above application.

Firstly I would like to note my professional credentials generally and interests in Sandown Court specifically.

I was awarded the Certificate in Professional Practice in Architecture (RIBA Part III) by the University of Sheffield in 1992, and an MSc in Urban Renewal with Distinction from Liverpool John Moores University in 1996.

My father N Keith Scott was the architect of what is today know as Sandown Court and was Building Design Partnership’s Partner in Charge of the project when it first opened as council housing in 1965. It may be a fair criticism therefore that some of my observations below are tempered by an ‘emotional’ attachment to their design.

I purchased No 108 Sandown Court in the summer of 2008. This is a “mid-terrace” 1 bedroom flat in Tower 1 on the 16th and 17th Floors, facing south west. A key factor influencing my decision to purchase this particular flat was that it still retains a full width open balcony on both floors so the apartment benefits from external private open space at high level, with uninterrupted views across south west Lancashire to north Wales, and across the Fylde.

I began a fully comprehensive remodelling of the apartment in my spare time, stripping out everything to the bare concrete. The only original features to remain were the upvc double glazed window and door units to the two balconies, as these were less than 10 years old and in good condition. The walls and ceilings have been dry lined to reduce noise transmission across the party walls, and a new radiator central heating system installed using a very efficient electric combi boiler. I have spent over £30,000 on the project (knowing full well that this investment could never be returned commercially should I ever decide to sell the apartment) and moved in to it in November 2011.

I would also like to note that I am broadly supportive of the Planning Application. Sandown Court is now 47 years old and notwithstanding a major refurbishment when it transferred from Public Sector to Private Sector housing c1981 is a diminishing asset which is showing its age. The residents are generally not particularly wealthy and the Management Company alone cannot afford the investment which is required to greatly enhance their condition. The particular financing arrangements associated with this Application offer a unique opportunity to enhance both the appearance of the Towers and greatly reduce the energy used by residents which will be a great saving in household expenditures, at a cost that most can afford. It is for these reasons that I voted in favour of the proposals at the Shareholder meeting in January.

There are a number of issues in the proposals however that cause me great concern, largely within the realm of planning and heritage and bringing them to your attention for consideration is the genesis of this correspondence.

Urban Design and Design Heritage

· The Sandown Court towers are the tallest inhabitable structures in Preston and probably also the tallest for at least 20 miles around the city centre. Their impact upon the skyline of the city when viewed from distance is very substantial, perhaps matched only in prominence by St Walburge’s spire and the Deepdale Football Ground’s floodlight towers.





The recladding of the Sandown Court towers is likely to be the most substantial alteration to the city’s skyline over the next 10 years, and quite possibly until the next Preston Guild. I feel it therefore incumbent upon the city planners to deliver from the Applicants a scheme of the highest possible design quality, leaving a legacy which positively enhances both the prospect of the city viewed from distance and through careful detailing improves the feel of the urban fabric when experienced at the city’s heart.

It is with some dismay that I have discovered that Applicant’s have not engaged the services of a Chartered Architect (let alone one of national note) for an Application of such prominence and importance to the future of the appearance of Preston. I personally feel this situation is reflected in the quality of the submission at all design levels, and which has contained a number of important inaccuracies.

· The design heritage aspects of Sandown Court itself can to many observers be matters of personal taste or interest, but I strongly believe they should be given consideration by the City Council’s Planning Department in informing its decision upon the Application. I refer firstly to the policy reprinted in the Applicant’s Heritage Statement:

POLICY HE7: POLICY PRINCIPLES GUIDING THE DETERMINATION Of
APPLICATIONS FOR CONSENT RELATING TO ALL HERITAGE ASSETS
HE7.2 In considering the impact of a proposal on any heritage asset, local planning
authorities should take into account the particular nature of the significance of the heritage asset and the value that it holds for this and future generations. [my highlighting]

The Planning Department is no doubt aware of the contribution made to the cultural history of Preston of by BDP. Founded in 1946 as Grenfell Baines & Hargreaves and changing its name in 1961, my father Keith Scott joined the firm in 1955 having gained his MA in Architecture from MIT in Massachusetts and was invited into the Partnership in 1964. He was Chairman of the practice for five years in the late 1980’s and awarded a CBE for Services to Architecture in 1989, having picked up 33 design awards from his peers during his long and very productive career.

It has always been a matter of some regret for him that he was only lightly commissioned for schemes in the town where he was born, lived and worked. Archbishop Temple High School, the Carey Baptist Christian Centre and Sandown Court are the only significant buildings remaining in the city to which he laid his guiding architect’s hand. Keith Scott is arguably the most significant architect Preston has ever produced, and a number of features of the design of these twin towers are of particular and unique note as the Planning Committee reaches its verdict with Heritage in mind.

Several public housing schemes of the period received much more international architectural attention than Kendal and Penrith House (Sandown Court’s initial monikers), such as Park Hill in Sheffield and Byker Wall in Newcastle, yet I believe the two towers as they still stand also represent a high point in Britain’s architectural history of the post war period. Preston was very proud of them upon completion as evidenced by the special 4 page special feature printed in the Evening Post on Monday, June 28, 1965. Several features of the original design are worthy of note, particularly as they came from a period of much currently unloved architecture (and, I opine, rightfully so), yet such buildings remain landmarks in the nation’s attempts to solve a housing crisis which had its origins long before World War II, especially in a Lancashire Mill town whose population increased manyfold during the Industrial Revolution. These include:

- Use of an interlocking doubled square plan to provide studio, 2 bed and 3 bed flats on each of the lower 16 floors of the towers, thus generating a natural social mix of people and age groups re-housed from the slums that were demolished to create the site. [unaffected by the Application]
- Mirroring of the plans of the twin towers, so that they were not ‘identical’, yet could utilise identical prefabricated elements to reduce construction costs. [unaffected by the Application]
- Use of mezzanine apartments with balconies on the top 2 floors with reduced floor plan areas, to create a ‘capital’ to the elevations of the towers and enhance their modelling. To my knowledge, this remains a unique feature in system built public housing in the UK. The photograph below taken in 1965 shows the intent of this design;





You will note from these historical pictures (or a current site inspection) that they show use not of “two-tone gray precast concrete panels” [sic – from the Applicant’s Design & Access statement], but of a carefully considered use of three tone colouring of the panels using natural aggregates, whereby the mid-tone grey accentuates the visual modelling of paired window elements. These elements of the existing condition are not honestly represented in the Applicant’s drawings. I am also of the opinion that such elements raise the structures from the level of ‘building’ to ‘architecture’, and in conjunction with my notes beforehand should be considered by the Planning Department.

Given that with today’s technology the new over-cladding panels can be of any colour, I must urge the Planning Department to insist on use of the replication as far as possible of the original three colours where originally designed in the recladding panels of the towers. Such an approach would be sympathetic to the original notable architect’s design and be of value to architectural historians into the future, both locally and internationally. The massing of the towers will have to (one way or another) increase by a small percentage (which in either case will require detailing resolution on the re-entrant angles of both towers) but these are small problems which can be resolved if a notable architect was in the employ of the Applicant.

· The open balconies on the 16th and 17th Floors are elements which I and my neighbour (Mr David Greenhalgh, No 107) are both very keen to retain. We both see them as assets to our accommodations which we do not want to have stolen from us. We have been told by the Applicant and Management Company that they will have to be enclosed, and that extending party walls between our properties across the newly enclosed former balconies will be the householders’ responsibility. It seems to us very unfair to lose an amenity which we do not choose to lose. The Applicant’s drawings do appear to show that the balconies to Flats 107 & 108 will not be enclosed, but it is impossible to tell for certain from the level of information given.

I have lived and worked within what is now the Avenham Conservation Area all my life (I’m 48) and wholeheartedly disagree with the following submission from the Applicant’s application :

Conclusion
National planning policy requires that development does not detract from the
quality of the historic environment. This is not subject to any designations of
historic or archeological importance. It can be said that the existing tower blocks are out dated and the aesthetic appearance is also dated and shabby [and of] no contribution to the architectural and historic interest of the area. Therefore embracing the refurbishment using natural colours and creating a more environmentally friendly building will benefit the two tower blocks appearance and reinforce its full residential usage originally intended and approved by the councils planning department.
This design concept will serve only to improve the outlook of all residents [sic]

I would hope that the fallacy of the above remark in any planning application is noted by the Planning Department; for example, cloaking I.M.Pei’s wonderfully ingenious glass pyramid solution to a new entrance to the Louvre with faux stone would have been a design disaster, rather than the genius all have found it to be. The only stone building of real note in the Avenham Conservation Area is the former Harris Institute, where my parents met each other, incidentally. Making a planning decision on the future of two architecturally unique mid1960’s blocks of flats depending solely upon which artificially coloured finish they are, is in my opinion, frankly pointless.

I do hope you have time to reflect upon the above before finalising your report, and once again, thank you for reading this late submission.

Tarquin Scott
Tarkitecture
14 Ribblesdale Place
Preston
PR1 3NA

Interesting read Tark. I do hope the reclad is considerate for such a prominent landmark.

A bit of construction news (for a change!)... there is quite a bit going on around the university:

- The previously stalled student block on the former car wash site down Walker Street has resumed construction and steelwork is progressing well.

- Plant and portacabins have appeared on the vacant site of a previously planned student block down Corporation Street (formerly occupied by an abandoned warehouse). Maybe back on the cards?

- The new extension to the dental school has begun on the Harrington car park

- Foster Building is being extended with a new lecture theatre and medical centre.

New promo video from Preston Vision to try and attract private sector investment on this link, particularly for the CBD project:
http://www.lep.co.uk/news/business/preston-the-post-tithebarn-dream-video-1-4485440

Not bad!

Bet the reclad will either be brick or minging plastic *sigh*

New promo video from Preston Vision to try and attract private sector investment on this link, particularly for the CBD project:
http://www.lep.co.uk/news/business/preston-the-post-tithebarn-dream-video-1-4485440

Not bad!

I assume most of the content of that video was in the voice over, could only watch on silent at work.

Usual plethora of depressing cack in the comments from the usual Luddites.

Hi everyone, newbie here but looking to contribute as much as I can, also studying Planning and Urban Design at University so these threads are a lot of interest!

Anyway a couple of bits from the LEP I noticed today regarding the Markets and the Bus Station issue coming up again, as well as the pedestrianisation of Fishergate:

Markets story: http://www.lep.co.uk/news/business/2m-revamp-for-market-1-4524834

Bus Station and Fishergate story: http://www.lep.co.uk/news/business/is-time-running-out-for-bus-station-1-4524830

The market idea sounds a sensible one from my perspective. Not so sure about pedestrianising Fishergate, I know its been mentioned upthread but it seems to have worked in Sheffield to an extent.

The market plans look good. Hopefully drag people out of the indoor market to a newly refurnished outdoor one, then we can tear down that an indoor market and replace it with something much nicer. Fingers crossed they do actually do this and it's not just a "maybe". This could be the first step in a phased regeneration, much like Blackpool have been doing.

Welcome to the forums guys. Thanks for the contribution.

Now then... if they can pull it off, I will be very happy with the plans for the revamped market. The worst element of the markets is by far and away the indoor market. Putting it on the market should attract a fair bit of attention too, especially if they get rid of the car park too!

Welcome to the forums guys. Thanks for the contribution.

Now then... if they can pull it off, I will be very happy with the plans for the revamped market. The worst element of the markets is by far and away the indoor market. Putting it on the market should attract a fair bit of attention too, especially if they get rid of the car park too!

Totally agree. I have spent some time working in the Planning Department next door in Lancastria House recently and I didn't realise how bad the indoor market had got. Getting rid of the car park could provide an excellent frontage onto Ringway for a development however in reality I cannot see it happening, not when PCC want to get rid of the Bus Station which would mean losing the 1100 spaces there as well.

I don't think that the car park is really a problem with the market. Its in the perfect place for a multi-storey being on Ringway. Also you wouldn't really front any development onto Ringway, can you imagine having lunch on it. No thanks! You could solve the car park by cladding the outside, refurbish the inside and generally making it look nicer.

The Indoor Market however is a dump of a building and interacts terribly with the outdoor market. Personally I would do what they proposed as part of Tithebarn. Enclose the outdoor market and move the indoor market into it. Then put the outdoor market onto the streets around it (or at the risk of sounding like a snob just get rid of most of it as lets face it, what is on there is total tat!). Then demolish the indoor market and build something else there. Surely from a commercial point of view it would be attractive having a multi-storey next to it?

With Sandown Court are there any pictures of it yet? Also what are they cladding it in?

Both valid points. Thinking about it, it probably is the best placed multistorey in town, being right next to the Ringway. A reclad and a refurbishment is well in order though (it's dreadful inside).

Both valid points. Thinking about it, it probably is the best placed multistorey in town, being right next to the Ringway. A reclad and a refurbishment is well in order though (it's dreadful inside).

The company Q-Park, who own a few multistoreys in Sheffield, are quite good at creating attractive car parks. Perhaps something like the car park below needs to be done to it? Which has become an icon in the city centre and gives some individuality to the place. Some people love it, others hate it!

http://s0.geograph.org.uk/geophotos/01/85/61/1856122_7aeb4bea.jpg

(Very) long time lurker, first time poster.

I tend to go on auto-rants about Preston so will try and keep that to a minimum while I get used to this forum :)

Maybe. But the uncharitable side of me wants to think "Ha, got what you deserved!!" Which isn't very nice I know, but the vehement anti-Tithebarn brigade do deserve a slap in the face of some sort.

I am going to introduce myself properly then ;)

I was anti-Tithebarn from start to finish. Every brick, every full stop, each and every line. Complete and absolute anti-Tithebarn. Was, is, ever will be,

Tithebarn was rotten. Its inception was flawed, its outlook was rotten, its long-term consequences were ill defined, its vision was blinkered. I cannot think of a worse thing to do to Preston than turning the place into Manchester-on-Ribble.

I am passionate about Preston, passionately pro-Bus Station. I am not convinced today as I was not two, five or ten years ago that the solution to Preston's problems was a John Lewis megastore.

Slap in the face? The only slap in the face I can think of would be the destruction of our city just so an unelected, unaccountable Vision Board can have fancy desktop wallpaper.

I am going to introduce myself properly then ;)

I was anti-Tithebarn from start to finish. Every brick, every full stop, each and every line. Complete and absolute anti-Tithebarn. Was, is, ever will be,

Tithebarn was rotten. Its inception was flawed, its outlook was rotten, its long-term consequences were ill defined, its vision was blinkered. I cannot think of a worse thing to do to Preston than turning the place into Manchester-on-Ribble.

I am passionate about Preston, passionately pro-Bus Station. I am not convinced today as I was not two, five or ten years ago that the solution to Preston's problems was a John Lewis megastore.

Slap in the face? The only slap in the face I can think of would be the destruction of our city just so an unelected, unaccountable Vision Board can have fancy desktop wallpaper.

The idea of redevelopment and regeneration itself is a good one, however I was in two minds over Tithebarn. the main issue I had with it was its location. It had the potential of spreading the core city centre over too much of an area, as it would have stretched from the railway station right up to to John Lewis, which is too much for retail to cope with. A classic example is Sheffield, where one end of the city is now in effect dead due to it being spread too far, and now the council are going on the opposite direction to what PCC had in mind, and are consolidating the core retail area of the city centre into one area, however just like Tithebarn this has also not been without its problems.

Something does need to be done with the city centre though, and I think a phased redevelopment is the way forward. As for the Bus Station, I am still sitting on the fence!

I am going to introduce myself properly then ;)

I was anti-Tithebarn from start to finish. Every brick, every full stop, each and every line. Complete and absolute anti-Tithebarn. Was, is, ever will be,

Tithebarn was rotten. Its inception was flawed, its outlook was rotten, its long-term consequences were ill defined, its vision was blinkered. I cannot think of a worse thing to do to Preston than turning the place into Manchester-on-Ribble.

I am passionate about Preston, passionately pro-Bus Station. I am not convinced today as I was not two, five or ten years ago that the solution to Preston's problems was a John Lewis megastore.

Slap in the face? The only slap in the face I can think of would be the destruction of our city just so an unelected, unaccountable Vision Board can have fancy desktop wallpaper.

Can I ask which direction you think Preston should be going in then, or are you happy with the way things are?

Can I ask which direction you think Preston should be going in then, or are you happy with the way things are?

On the whole I'm pretty happy with the way things are.

Let's take a look at some of the issues one by one. The central theme is "Preston Council could not do joined-up thinking if given a thousand years and a million chances."

Queen Street redevelopment - great idea. But is it joined up with any other scheme? Would it be tied in with any proposed redevelopment of Church Street/Fishergate, or would traffic levels on London Road become even worse?

And if there was no joined up thinking on that side, what about the proposed pedestrianisation of Fishergate? Long overdue, I'm sure we all agree, but with the Ring Road and ways into Preston the way they are, how could it be pedestrianised today? How would residents of Avenham get to, say, the Docks? Where would the Park & Ride buses be re-directed?

The Bus Station should stay, end of, no question. Why? Because the loss of 1,100 car parking places says its a daft idea to carry on with it. We know as fact that it would cost more to demolish than re-furbish, and that the Council has £5m which it could spend on making the bus station fit for the 21st Century. Instead, it's being purposely "managed declined" by the wilful blindness of PCC and LCC, who appear still hoodwinked by the promise of John Lewis and Tithebarn

Blackmailing the market traders into glass coffins on the market square - direct quote from Cllr Rankin "We're going to push forward" - is another Post Office disaster waiting to happen. Just be thankful that there's no Totem Poles and LED Flags on the drawing board anymore.

The City Centre, by and large, is fine. We should have a Council investing its time and effort into attracting companies into the numerous empty units across the city. Instead, they're feeding unelected, unaccountable Vision Boards with tax-funded biscuits to come up with yet more clap-trap to recreate some kind of "Manchester-on-Ribble" pipe dream.

Trams running from Deepdale Road to Preston Crem may look good in glossy documents but they don't get shoppers putting money into coffers.

The City Centre, by and large, is fine. We should have a Council investing its time and effort into attracting companies into the numerous empty units across the city.

Hard to know where to start with the first sentence - save to say that Preston City Centre is as grotty as any I know of for its size in Western Europe - so I won't start. If you think it's fine mate, god help you.

I would not want to see PCC spending more than minimal resources on trying to get the numerous empty units let at present as it would be trowing good money after bad.
Firstly, the general economic downturn and change in consumer habits away from direct retail towards growing internet purchases are already creating and will lead to further major changes in the way our city centres operate and the uses to which they are put. A major rethink of the city centre concept and offer (everywhere, not just Preston) is needed - and I don't claim to know what the answer is yet.
Secondly, the existing empty units in the city centre suffer from generally being too small, badly configured with very poor servicing and few amenities. This makes them expensive to run and therefore not attractive to potential tenants - hence the "good money after bad" comment. These were issues which the Tithebarn was attempting to address and only major redevelopment, albeit broken down into much smaller and more manageable parcels, can create a future credible retail offer.

Pedestrianisation of Fishergate is vital - we are the only place I know of of this size without a pedestrianised high street - but the local geography does make it very difficult as the river and parks make access from the south very limited. Improving speedy access to the city centre from all directions by trams is the best way get more shoppers in to town and revive the vitality of the city centre.

Secondly, the existing empty units in the city centre suffer from generally being too small, badly configured with very poor servicing and few amenities. This makes them expensive to run and therefore not attractive to potential tenants - hence the "good money after bad" comment.

100% agree with this point. I spent 3 years working in the old Next on Fishergate and this was the definition of badly configured and cramped, so when we moved over the road it was heaven. The fact St Georges want to knock the old Next unit and the old Dorothy Perkins unit together further confirms this point, as no sensible retailer would take on the old Next unit with its current layout.

Hard to know where to start with the first sentence - save to say that Preston City Centre is as grotty as any I know of for its size in Western Europe - so I won't start. If you think it's fine mate, god help you.

I would not want to see PCC spending more than minimal resources on trying to get the numerous empty units let at present as it would be trowing good money after bad.
Firstly, the general economic downturn and change in consumer habits away from direct retail towards growing internet purchases are already creating and will lead to further major changes in the way our city centres operate and the uses to which they are put. A major rethink of the city centre concept and offer (everywhere, not just Preston) is needed - and I don't claim to know what the answer is yet.
Secondly, the existing empty units in the city centre suffer from generally being too small, badly configured with very poor servicing and few amenities. This makes them expensive to run and therefore not attractive to potential tenants - hence the "good money after bad" comment. These were issues which the Tithebarn was attempting to address and only major redevelopment, albeit broken down into much smaller and more manageable parcels, can create a future credible retail offer.

Pedestrianisation of Fishergate is vital - we are the only place I know of of this size without a pedestrianised high street - but the local geography does make it very difficult as the river and parks make access from the south very limited. Improving speedy access to the city centre from all directions by trams is the best way get more shoppers in to town and revive the vitality of the city centre.


Pedestrianisation is vital, I agree. It will be difficult to resolve the problems of having the Ring Road and Avenham so close, though, because there are so many ways to get into/out of the city. How to divert traffic to Penwortham or out of Avenham without clogging up the Ring Road?


Trams won't work. At all.

I'm completely, utterly, absolutely against trams for Preston. We don't need them - there's an extensive bus network already in place. Our streets are too narrow, for one thing. Would be a complete vanity project.

I would'nt say that the city centre by in large is ok. The area that would have been covered by Tithebarn is a mess and not the sort of area that you could use to sell Preston to visitors. Perhaps the Tithebarn Project method would be wrong for the area. However for me this area signifies the decline that Preston has been on over the years. Stand outside the Lloyds on Lancaster Road and tell me what is good about the view!

Also I don't see the problem with spreading the city centre out more. If you take Tithebarn as the example, Preston would have had two anchors at either end of it. The Rail Station/Debehnam at one end and the Bus Station/John Lewis at the other. The footfall would be spread across them. Seems like a pretty good way of doing it to me.

I would argue that trams would be great for Preston. Re-using the Longridge Line to connect the Train Station, PNE, Deepdale Retail Park and Redscar. Think of all the cars that this could remove from the roads. not just in the form of commuters but also residents. Deepdale is a pretty dense area for trams to run through! Though I realise it will never happen as there is no focus on public transport investment in this country unless it is London or maybe Manchester.

I cant write a massive reply because im in Barcelona and using my phone. In terms of the overall satisfaction of the city centre, it hasnt really changed much since the 1990s and its fast becoming unfit for purpose. The point about the size and layout of retail units is the key one, and that was one of tithebarns key selling points. But its not just about retail units...the Guildhall has lost pretty much every major event that it held due to it being severely outdated and underfunded, the office accommodation is no longer sufficient to attract the private sector, alongside many other reasons why the city centre is lacking appeal. I also agree about the city centre being too spread out. Consolidation should be happening in the areas between the railway station and the flag market. As for trams, they should certainly not be discouraged. They are more effective than buses at taking cars off the road, and they attract large amounts of investment along their routes. Its not all bad, large parts of the city centre are beautiful, and Preston is often described as the next big thing due to its massive investment potential.

Some of you may be interested in reading the responses given by council leader Peter Rankin to a Q&A session on BlogPreston

These included:


"There are plans for a rail station and park and ride to be built at Cottam as part of the proposals for new housing developments there. No plans anywhere else that I can recall."



"The Labour Group is particularly committed to the food market and want to spend great deal of what little capital monies we have on a new generation food market in the old fish market. The old market hall built in the 1960s has been neglected over the past 10 years as it was thought that Tithebarn would bring in untold wealth to enable a glassed in covered market to be developed. I have the job in a time of recesion of moving us forward with redeveloped markets and a redeveloped site with cinema and restaurants. This won't be easy but staying in the old market hall with its £5m+ repairs is not an option in the medium term"


"Save the bus station at all costs? What if there aren't any buses calling at the bus station? And at all costs? Really at all costs? Where is all the money going to come from for this?"


"I am trying to kick-start development in the city centre. In our Your City, Your Say consultation, many young people said that what was needed was a city centre cinema and mid-range restaurants. Thats what we want to try and get off the ground in the markets quarter, together with a redeveloped market. Retail throughout the UK is going through very difficult times and large scale retail development is very unlikely in Preston for the next few years."

Hard to disagree with any of that really. Nice to see that Cottam Parkway is back on the agenda. Together with the recent opening of Buckshaw Parkway, and a redeveloped Leyland P+R station, Preston's utilisation of the railway network is increasing. With the advent of tram-trains in the near future, I am hopeful these opportunities will further increase, particularly on the East Lancs and Ormskirk lines, and if we are very lucky, a reopened Longridge line.

New office complex proposed for Glovers Court, just off Winckley Square:

http://www.lep.co.uk/news/business/printworks-offices-to-breathe-life-into-centre-1-4586637

Additional news, Sainsbury's on the corner of Liverpool Road and Cop Lane in Penwortham was approved this week.

New office complex proposed for Glovers Court, just off Winckley Square:

http://www.lep.co.uk/news/business/printworks-offices-to-breathe-life-into-centre-1-4586637

Additional news, Sainsbury's on the corner of Liverpool Road and Cop Lane in Penwortham was approved this week.

Here is the link to the Sainsburys story if anyone missed it

http://www.lep.co.uk/news/local/supermarket-plan-is-agreed-1-4574244

Living 2 minutes away from this I cannot wait to see them get started, first major development in Penwortham for a long, long time. I am slightly concerned at the possible increase in traffic, but if it helps the push for a bypass..!

Go if you get the chance, if they put on the same show as we get you'll love it, they'll add a lot to what you already have.

June Brouhaha News
2012/06/03 - 2012/06/03

Preston Carnival

Time
TBC

Description
Brouhaha International will showcase costumed from our 'Inspire Mark 2012 - De Paradise - A Life Beyond. This is our first year in Preston and we are looking forward to bringing a touch of Liverpool to the event.

Venue
for information on the Parade and the event please visit the site http://www.prestoncarnival.co.uk/

Cost
Free

http://publicaccess.preston.gov.uk/portal/servlets/ApplicationSearchServlet?PKID=105743

A small bit of news. The horrifying blot on the Market Square which is the former Pizza Hut restaurant is to be converted to a Nandos and the front is to be demolished and replaced with something far more in fitting.

I guess every bit counts!

Thats fantastic news! The one at Deepdale has been a tremendous success. Hopefully they will attract the same kind of numbers into the city centre.

A small bit of news. The horrifying blot on the Market Square which is the former Pizza Hut restaurant is to be converted to a Nandos and the front is to be demolished and replaced with something far more in fitting.

I guess every bit counts!

Was looking at this spot again for other reasons the other day. The shocklingly awful "1st Floor" of that unit is just brickwork - nothing behind it.

As this site was my DipArch Thesis site in '87, I remain interested in it philosphically, as well as a Prestonian. On the down side, it seems like more scratty piecemeal development, and I greatly fear the end results of things that are "fitting", especially on such a small site of itself. In an ideal world, Anne Summers to Anchor Court needs nuking and creating an approriate civic response to The Harris opposite. I tried to demonstrate this in my thesis to my University 25 years ago but in their Ivory Towers they only 'got' museums and libraries and had no sympathy for theses presenting practical commercial architecture. - As you can read, I'm still bitter about it!

If Pizza Hut gets knocked down, I don't want a new 200sq.m that is "far more in fitting", I want a design that reflects the quality of the Harris ooposite. Unfortunately, such designs are only affordable if the entire west side of Cheapside is removed.

And while we're at it, some would bemoan the demolition of the little Jewellers on Cheapside. It's old. But it's not any good. It's a piece of bog paper wiping the arse of The Harris, Miller Arcade, (former) Post Office. It's a real shame that Crystal House got revamped instead of demolished, and piecemeal redevelopment of Cheapside would stymie any economically rational chance of creating a decent civic centre to Preston for at least 60 years.

Was looking at this spot again for other reasons the other day. The shocklingly awful "1st Floor" of that unit is just brickwork - nothing behind it.

As this site was my DipArch Thesis site in '87, I remain interested in it philosphically, as well as a Prestonian. On the down side, it seems like more scratty piecemeal development, and I greatly fear the end results of things that are "fitting", especially on such a small site of itself. In an ideal world, Anne Summers to Anchor Court needs nuking and creating an approriate civic response to The Harris opposite. I tried to demonstrate this in my thesis to my University 25 years ago but in their Ivory Towers they only 'got' museums and libraries and had no sympathy for theses presenting practical commercial architecture. - As you can read, I'm still bitter about it!

If Pizza Hut gets knocked down, I don't want a new 200sq.m that is "far more in fitting", I want a design that reflects the quality of the Harris ooposite. Unfortunately, such designs are only affordable if the entire west side of Cheapside is removed.

And while we're at it, some would bemoan the demolition of the little Jewellers on Cheapside. It's old. But it's not any good. It's a piece of bog paper wiping the arse of The Harris, Miller Arcade, (former) Post Office. It's a real shame that Crystal House got revamped instead of demolished, and piecemeal redevelopment of Cheapside would stymie any economically rational chance of creating a decent civic centre to Preston for at least 60 years.

Have to agree in the principle Tark, the dismal 3 units after Anchor Court, built with St Georges Shopping Centre could do with removal also, but would need a concerted effort from a largely powerless Local Authority.

Looking at the frontages there are clearly the remains of two elegant 18 or even 17c 4 story buildings of a type found on many market squares. One being the ex-Dolphin bathroom shop - inappropriate frontage upto the 3rd floor and the building next door with the vile paneled frontage.

It has to be said it is a row of shame in terms of urban design, with the former Pizza Hut, the arcade dwelling cousin next door and the Home Bargains Buildings being probably my least favourite buildings in the whole town.

The design for Nandos looks fine and kind of in-fitting with the 18/early 19c nature of a Market Square. Of course a new block that would really make a statement for the 21c would be preferable, but I'm still hoping that the area in front of the bus station could provide this. Will the Nandos building mean a general improvement in time to its offensive cousins? - would be nice to think so in time, but maybe it would stymie any attempts of a proper redevelopment.

http://publicaccess.preston.gov.uk/portal/servlets/ApplicationSearchServlet?PKID=105743

A small bit of news. The horrifying blot on the Market Square which is the former Pizza Hut restaurant is to be converted to a Nandos and the front is to be demolished and replaced with something far more in fitting.

I guess every bit counts!

That is great news. Nandos is one of the (many) companies that are clearly bucking the recession trend. Our one seems permanently jam packed, regardless of what day it is or time.

Went to nando's at deepdale last night...gave up though as there was the usual massive queue! There is clearly demand for one in town...will make a welcome change from Greggs!

Please could one of you show photos of the square. Thanks

http://statics.192.com/estreet/original/large/1203/12037018.jpg

That is the hellhole that is disappearing. Shameful addition to any Town Square

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2726/4113432787_a188721b52_o.jpg

I know this isn't a heritage thread, but in view of hopefully Nandos starting to tidy up a poor row of buildings in such a prominent position and with little else new going on; there are three surviving buildings (Dolphin Bathrooms, Pawn Brokers and Millets) albeit with poor current frontages. They are the fourth, fifth and sixth buildings on the left in this picture (I think!)

This side of the square would start to look a whole lot better with the frontages restored and something done with the Home Bargains and arcade buildings

http://statics.192.com/estreet/original/large/1049/10492303.jpg

http://publicaccess.preston.gov.uk/portal/servlets/ApplicationSearchServlet?PKID=106203

Have to say I was fairly saddened when the old edwardian deaf school was pulled down last year on Brocholes Brow. I grew up not too far from there and it really was a grand old pile. However these plans for a new deaf arts and culture centre look really quite ambitious and exciting. Check out the renders.

A very brief mention of a Midge Hall train station - http://www.lep.co.uk/news/business/green-light-given-to-4-000-new-homes-plan-1-4660639

Revised planning application in for the redevelopment of the bottom end of Glovers Court. Really great looking scheme and I hope it happens

http://publicaccess.preston.gov.uk/portal/servlets/ApplicationSearchServlet?PKID=106746

A very brief mention of a Midge Hall train station - http://www.lep.co.uk/news/business/green-light-given-to-4-000-new-homes-plan-1-4660639

With regards to the housing proposal, I think we will see more massive resi developments proposed in that part of South Ribble over the next 20 years. If this happens, its vital that the transport connections are improved. Penwortham Way and the surrounding trunk roads are already ridiculously congested during the rush hours. The Ormskirk line could potentially play a vital part in relieving the strain. When it was proposed to convert it to tram-train, I failed to see the point. But given the future prospective development of the former Leyland Motors lands, it could be pretty vital.

http://incertainplaces.org/sticky/revisiting-utopia-modernist-architecture-in-the-post-regenerate-city (http://incertainplaces.org/sticky/revisiting-utopia-modernist-architecture-in-the-post-regenerate-city)

There's an event at UCLan focusing on modernist architecture and the bus station that some of you may be interested in. Details can be found at the link, posted above.

Revisiting Utopia: Modernist Architecture in the Post-regenerate City

Those idiots in Preston Town Hall are all set to demolish the covered market :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash:

Hardly as it is listed. Source?

Hardly as it is listed. Source?

I think he probably means the indoor market, but I say good riddance. It's an ugly building, especially the view from ringway.

So many lies coming out of Preston Council about how much it will cost to refurbish the market.

Fanciful talk about putting a cinema there, by the way.

What I would love to see them do is refurbish the outdoor markets as per Tithebarn, move the indoor market into that and then demolish the existing indoor market.

There was a story about "What makes a successful city" on the Today programme on Thursday. I was a bit surprised when the case study they used was Preston! Good publicity though!


http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_9737000/9737223.stm

What I would love to see them do is refurbish the outdoor markets as per Tithebarn, move the indoor market into that and then demolish the existing indoor market.

There seems to have been a bit of a fuss about all of this. I can understand the market traders don't want the disruption but surely getting rid of the grotty indoor market and moving it into a much more appealing enclosed section of the covered market would be good for everyone longer term.

I think it's a great idea, and also that the site would be perfect for a new cinema.

There was a story about "What makes a successful city" on the Today programme on Thursday. I was a bit surprised when the case study they used was Preston! Good publicity though!


http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_9737000/9737223.stm

The Centre for Cities article can be found here:

http://www.centreforcities.org/unique-look-into-the-economic-heritage-of-urban-britain-shows-that-the-government-must-focus-on-skills-now-or-pay-later.html

Apparently Preston has had the second greatest positive change in it's 'City Outlook factor' between 1901 and 2011. :banana:

There seems to have been a bit of a fuss about all of this. I can understand the market traders don't want the disruption but surely getting rid of the grotty indoor market and moving it into a much more appealing enclosed section of the covered market would be good for everyone longer term.

I think it's a great idea, and also that the site would be perfect for a new cinema.

But it's a lie. The indoor markets are, by and large, fine.

The whole scheme is being built up by a Council ashamed by the Tithebarn farce and failure to demolish the Bus Station, so they've now gone for another 'easy target'.

I'm not sure why people seem so attracted to having an inner city cinema beside the Ring Road and opposite (I assume) Squires nightclub. Recipe for disaster, surely?

How's Preston Guild 2012 going on? Is it a bit of a washout like it was in 1992?

I've got a couple of pictures of the Sandown Court recladding progress. It's starting to look much better. Getting rid of the greys for a much brighter and more appealing colour. They're taken on Skye Street, just by the Avenham open air car park.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-hMkxrvL5yDc/UAn86sJ5Q2I/AAAAAAAAAT0/MayAsM2dQCg/s509/12+-+1
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-fBC34_XlEUE/UAn86u_m7HI/AAAAAAAAAUE/etIVJdw8d0M/s509/12+-+2
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-pejlp-qfUnU/UAn86gdDyzI/AAAAAAAAAT8/vos0_rdIf8c/s509/12+-+3

On a completely unrelated note I've decided that if I ever run the city council I'll be tearing down Crystal House and rebuilding Scott's beautiful town hall back in it's rightful place. I only wish that I was alive when it was standing. My grandma remembers it still smoldering on her walk to Lark Hill school from the train station.

They have turned them into featureless Magnolia Pillars :(

Looking so much better. By simply removing the horizontal lines from the buildings stops them looking so modular and prefabricated (and so less cheap) I'm sure on the approach from the train they'll look nice and cheerful against a bit of blue sky.

I'm not sure why people seem so attracted to having an inner city cinema beside the Ring Road and opposite (I assume) Squires nightclub. Recipe for disaster, surely?

Um, presumably because it'd be nice to have something to do in Preston of an evening that does not revolve around getting sh*tfaced?

Living now in Basingstoke, OK, it's not centre of the universe, but the redeveloped (over a decade ago) town centre enjoys an "inner-city" cinema right next to a major road and with a row of restaurants and a large bar adjacent. All are very popular and busy all week and ensure Basingstoke is actually a decent, family destination for an evening. We have been as a family on many occasions and felt safe and enjoyed a good meal out and/or a film.

Still, if you are happy with Preston as it is, who am I to argue, apart from someone who moved 200+ miles to get away from the place!! (It wasn't the real reason I hasten to add - Preston is not THAT important - but works nicely in this context!)

With respect to you, you're completely wrong

There are two multiplex cinemas within 3.5 mile radius of the city centre. Justify building a new one.

I've asked this question to cheerleaders of the "tear everything down brigade" to no avail, so I'll try here.

Neither cinema is within walking distance of the city centre. As mentioned there is bugger all to do in the city centre of an evening apart from get drunk. Building a cinema would give an alternative! Didnt Cineworld sign up to Tithebarn? That alone shows there is a demand.

Well, a variety of opinions, but as a town centre resident of Sandown Court I am massively disappointed with what they'vew done to the outside. The lemon yellow is rank and lacking design skill or subtlety of any description. To me, they've made the interestingly articulated architectural statements of the 60's into the blandest of tombstones such as one would find in Bucharest from the height of the communist dictatorship.
Furthermore, I am really quite interested in cinema, but almost never go because neither multiplex in the Preston area (the one at the Capitol Centre is technically South Ribble) is within walking distance, particularly on winter evening.

I agree with you Tark and CaptainJason. There are several reasons why a cinema on the site of the indoor market would be a good thing.

First, the two cinemas are not easily accessible to people without car. Where I live the only way to get to the docks would be the orbit. I can either go to the bus station, change to the other orbit then to riversway, or get the longer orbit through cottom and eventually end up at the docks. The capitol centre would be the same bus to the bus station then another out to Walton-le-Dale. it would be much more convenient for there to be a cinema in town.

Second, if the closure of the indoor market will allow for the refurbishment of our Victorian outdoor markets I'm not complaining. The indoor marker is ghastly and so replacing it would be good. A cinema may also encourage restaurants and the like to crop up in that area, like the person from Basingstoke says happens there (I can't see you name on my phone I'm afraid). In the evening the outdoor market could have a restaurant underneath which on a warm night would be very pleasant.

I did have a third reason, but it currently escapes me.

Looks like we're not going to agree.

The Odeon on the Docks has hundreds of car-parking spaces around it, a restaurant, KFC and at least one pub. The Vue on Walton-le-Dale has hundreds of car-parking spaces, a number of fast-food options and restaurants and even a Waitrose!

What on earth does this proposed site have? Wok2Eat and Squire's. Maybe the Market Tavern could become a family friendly eaterie?

I don't believe this free market philosophy that "build it and they will come". There's no incentive to build a cafe culture down an alley way next to Iceland and an empty ex-bingo hall.

City centre cinemas aren't built anymore for very clear and obvious reasons. When there's TWO cinemas within a 3.5 mile radius of Town Hall in Preston, it should be pretty obvious why another one shouldn't be built here.

I agree in part with both sides of the argument for the cinema. Even in Sheffield I always tend to go to the Cinema in Meadowhall rather than the city centre, purely for convenience due to parking and the good train and tram links back to the city centre.

However in Preston unless you live on the Orbit route access to the Docks isn't easy if you don't have a car, whereas a cinema in town would be accessible to all those close to a bus stop, as wherever the bus station ends up it will still be within walking distance. Similarly unless you have a car or live close by, access to the Capitol Centre isn't easy for everyone.

Also, who's to say building a cinema wouldn't help attract investment into that corner of town? I'm sure the alleyway would be removed if the building was demolished. However of course this is all ifs buts and maybes! We can dream, we have been for the past 20 years...

Completely agree agree with you about Sandown Tark, they have really messed them up. Give it a few years and you will end up with streaks going down the walls from the window cills. Terrible and cheap. Such a shame! When you consider what can be done with these sorts of buildings from examples around the country (the ones off Mancunian Way in Manchester spring to mind) its such a shame. Then again shows unimaginative the City Council or whoever it was that owns these is!

PR1Berkse- if you were to build a cinema, and refurbish the covered markets as planned then that whole area would be different. You could put active frontages all along Liverpool Street and by using a cinema as an anchor you would attract people to the area.

Also inner city cinemas are being built. Liverpool One has one that opened in 2008 and has been so successful that Odeon are opening a second branch in the city centre. The out of town cinema's are great if you have a car. Many people dont. When I lived in Liverpool I went to the cinema far more often than I do in Preston due to the convinence of it being in the city centre. If Cineworld signed up in the Tithebarn then there must be some confidence in having one in Preston City Centre.

Also inner city cinemas are being built. Liverpool One has one that opened in 2008 and has been so successful that Odeon are opening a second branch in the city centre. The out of town cinema's are great if you have a car. Many people dont. When I lived in Liverpool I went to the cinema far more often than I do in Preston due to the convinence of it being in the city centre. If Cineworld signed up in the Tithebarn then there must be some confidence in having one in Preston City Centre.

There's also the Printworks in Manchestaw.

With respect to you, you're completely wrong

Oh, well, I am wrong, what is the point of arguing... but for the more grown up contributors, I will comment.

Basingstoke also has a multiplex cinema (Odeon) 2 miles from the town centre one, replete with free parking and a swimming complex, ice-skating rink, restaurants and a very good museum all adjacent. But, it was built in the 1990s, has a shallow seat rake, low-backed seats and dated equipment. I will always go to the Vue in the centre and pay to park as this cinema, as it has much better seating and a far superior 4k HD projection system and top sound system. That is me exercising my freedom of choice, hence why the socialists won't like my answer.

There are two multiplex cinemas within 3.5 mile radius of the city centre. Justify building a new one.

Easy peasy, the two existing cinemas are only easily accessible by car, a city centre one would be much easier to access by people using public transport - didn't have you down as the eliteist, exclude the lower classes type!

Plus, a new build cinema would provide a far higher quality experience compared to the older existing ones. (When I still lived in Leyland, we tended to travel to the Bolton Vue at Middlebrook for this reason).

I've asked this question to cheerleaders of the "tear everything down brigade" to no avail, so I'll try here.

Must have been the way you phrased your questions...

The multiplex at Manors in Newcastle just outside the centre (as both are in Preston) shut down after a new cinema was built in the city centre and took away it's trade, there are also new succesful cinemas in the city centres in Leeds (The Light), York (City Screen), Manchester (Printworks & AMC), Hull, Halifax, Sunderland etc etc etc...

When I was a student in Preston I don't think I ever went to the cinema due to the fact there wasn't a screen in the city centre, here in York I go 7/8 times a year at least as I can.

With respect, that's your choice, not the fault of the city!

Jon - I don't know where to begin with your diatribe of nonsense. Shall I stop being "of the left" to understand why throwing out market traders is a good idea?

The indoor markets have aged very very poorly, and they lack the pull that a historic market city should have. I think that moving them into an enclosed covered market will be a very good move both for Preston and the markets, and allow them to compete in the long term.

Looks like I'm not going to find anyone on my side in this thread!

Looks like I'm not going to find anyone on my side in this thread!
I hope not, because everything you've posted is complete shite, not least in terms of vital and viable city centres, sustainability of existing substantial transport infrastructure and conservation of green field sites.
One must remember that a locked car on a tarmaced surface car park is nothing more than a very expensive piece of litter, which (legally) can stay there until its owner deigns to take it back home. We live on a small, very overcrowed island (check global population density stats for proof) and yet we have much more land devoted to parked cars than useful things such as playing fields. All car parks should be underground, underneath the buildings they serve. This is a compulsary planning requirement of even more densely populated countries, such as Holland, and I studied its benefits in cities such as Maastrict and Tilburg 20 years ago.
Did you know that if you buy a ticket to a Bundesleague match in Germany, the price of the ticket (which is generally much lower than the average for a Premiership match) includes free public transport to and from the match? This encourages people to use public transport and obviates the need for the acres of black tarmac surrounding places like the Reebok stadium which are unused for 340 days a year, and only used for up to 6hrs on the 25 days a year that it is 'needed'.
Please Berske, get some learning on the subject matters before spouting more bollocks, or are you already a politician pandering to the misguided masses?
On the Sandown Court issue, the 'designs' are purely the product of the Electricity Companys' need to spend a certain amount of money anually lowering the general populace's carbon footprint through reduction in energy usage. Our bills (and energy use) should go down by about 60% in a year or two, with the heating and hot water fuel supplies coming from renewable resources - a 'win - win' scenario. No qualified architect has been within a lightyear of the proposals and planners have to consider things far beyond just how things look. It's also worth noting that planners get absolutely no aesthetic training - I know this from sharing some modules in my MSc in Urban Renwal with final year planners.
Still, things could be much worse. Go and have a look at just about any town or city in the USA. But then they have zillions of unused acres, just waiting to be tarmaced over once their economy recovers.

Looks like we're not going to agree.

The Odeon on the Docks has hundreds of car-parking spaces around it, a restaurant, KFC and at least one pub. The Vue on Walton-le-Dale has hundreds of car-parking spaces, a number of fast-food options and restaurants and even a Waitrose!

What on earth does this proposed site have? Wok2Eat and Squire's. Maybe the Market Tavern could become a family friendly eaterie?

I would imagine that building a cinema here would have a massive domino effect. Traditionally in recent years where inner city cinemas have been built, food outlets such as Yo Sushi, Cafe Rouge, Nando's and Frankie's and Benny's have followed. The city centre currently has none of this offer. There are currently loads of vacant units in some fairly pretty buildings in that area which would make fantastic cafes and restaurants.

I don't believe this free market philosophy that "build it and they will come". There's no incentive to build a cafe culture down an alley way next to Iceland and an empty ex-bingo hall.
A redevelopment of this scale would completely transform the public realm and street layout of the area. And boy, does it need it! I think its a fair bet that the alleyway in between the Fish Market and Lowthian House will go, and be widened out into a proper pedestrianised street, leading to an improved crossing over the Ringway to Lawson Street.

City centre cinemas aren't built anymore for very clear and obvious reasons. When there's TWO cinemas within a 3.5 mile radius of Town Hall in Preston, it should be pretty obvious why another one shouldn't be built here.
I think you're confusing the pre-1950 single screen cinemas (such as the former one on Church Street) with the modern multiplexes. We are currently seeing a transformation of City Centres from the model of the 1980's/90's where high street retailing was the key driver. Cinemas are a vital part of this transformation.

diatribe of nonsense

What a thoroughly well thought out response. Certainly put Tark's and Accura's posts into perspective :ohno:

I think we've got another Riversider, argue against development and when anyone puts forward well-thought out responses, run off at a tangent because you have no useful argument left! :lol:

What a thoroughly well thought out response. Certainly put Tark's and Accura's posts into perspective :ohno:

I think we've got another Riversider, argue against development and when anyone puts forward well-thought out responses, run off at a tangent because you have no useful argument left! :lol:

I don't know who that is.

I'm not against redevelopment. My issue is with what kind, and where. To date, Preston CC has not come up with anything which shows they have a vision for Preston - namely the glass box market disaster, too much faith in Tithebarn over all else, and now this cinema thing.

I will not go back and read a lovely post I've only just spotted calling my opinion "complete shite". Is this thread always so nice to people?

I would imagine that building a cinema here would have a massive domino effect. Traditionally in recent years where inner city cinemas have been built, food outlets such as Yo Sushi, Cafe Rouge, Nando's and Frankie's and Benny's have followed. The city centre currently has none of this offer. There are currently loads of vacant units in some fairly pretty buildings in that area which would make fantastic cafes and restaurants.


A redevelopment of this scale would completely transform the public realm and street layout of the area. And boy, does it need it! I think its a fair bet that the alleyway in between the Fish Market and Lowthian House will go, and be widened out into a proper pedestrianised street, leading to an improved crossing over the Ringway to Lawson Street.


I think you're confusing the pre-1950 single screen cinemas (such as the former one on Church Street) with the modern multiplexes. We are currently seeing a transformation of City Centres from the model of the 1980's/90's where high street retailing was the key driver. Cinemas are a vital part of this transformation.

I'm glad you've posted this in the way you have, because it shows exactly how the proposals don't stack up, and how I'm right to be suspicious (or down right cynical!)

"I think", "I imagine", "I suppose" - these are very familiar to people who follow Preston CC's history with redevelopment. I agree with you - that area needs work. But Peter Rankin and his cohorts haven't said "This cinema will also include retail units, wider roads and improved crossings." He/they have said "We will build a cinema".

If that's ALL they build, it would be a disaster, because there'd be no cafe, no improved access over the Ring Road, no wider renewal - just a cinema, sitting there opposite an empty bingo hall beside a dual carriageway, begging for customers because there's two existing multiplexes within a 3.5 mile radius.

There are a lot of vacant lots, I agree with you there because it's fairly obvious to see it! But unless and until there are plans beyond "close down the market, built a cinema", I'm not going to believe that a Frankie and Bennys is about to spring up underneath the fish market car park. Preston Council aren't *that* ambitious.

I hope not, because everything you've posted is complete shite, not least in terms of vital and viable city centres, sustainability of existing substantial transport infrastructure and conservation of green field sites.



I don't need a BSc in whatever invented subjected you've got to know that building a rival within a bus ride away is not good business practice, not least when the only possible draw to a city centre cinema is a nightclub and a takeaway noodle bar.

I don't need a BSc in whatever invented subjected you've got to know that building a rival within a bus ride away is not good business practice, not least when the only possible draw to a city centre cinema is a nightclub and a takeaway noodle bar.
Hmmm. Ever been outside of Preston? Have a look at Manchester City Centre versus the Trafford Centre. Both have very similar elements a "bus ride" from each other.

If you are going to take offence at what people say before being equally rude, at least try to make some sense with your own arguments.

Riversider was a socialist who despised anything/anyone who exists to make money. He/she was an interesting socialist as he reserved particular scorn for the employee owned John Lewis Partnership.

I'm glad you've posted this in the way you have, because it shows exactly how the proposals don't stack up, and how I'm right to be suspicious (or down right cynical!)

"I think", "I imagine", "I suppose" - these are very familiar to people who follow Preston CC's history with redevelopment. I agree with you - that area needs work. But Peter Rankin and his cohorts haven't said "This cinema will also include retail units, wider roads and improved crossings." He/they have said "We will build a cinema".

If that's ALL they build, it would be a disaster, because there'd be no cafe, no improved access over the Ring Road, no wider renewal - just a cinema, sitting there opposite an empty bingo hall beside a dual carriageway, begging for customers because there's two existing multiplexes within a 3.5 mile radius.

There are a lot of vacant lots, I agree with you there because it's fairly obvious to see it! But unless and until there are plans beyond "close down the market, built a cinema", I'm not going to believe that a Frankie and Bennys is about to spring up underneath the fish market car park. Preston Council aren't *that* ambitious.

There are no formal or detailed proposals at the moment. This is merely a concept, and not a bad one at that. This is a success story that has been duplicated all across the country...something that will achieve the effect that I described and most importantly, bring people into the city centre.

Out of interest, what would you suggest instead? Doing nothing is not an option.

There are no formal or detailed proposals at the moment. This is merely a concept, and not a bad one at that. This is a success story that has been duplicated all across the country...something that will achieve the effect that I described and most importantly, bring people into the city centre.

Out of interest, what would you suggest instead? Doing nothing is not an option.


Doing nothing IS an option! You've fallen for the Tithebarn propaganda.

The markets are fine - the traders work there every day, all day, every week of every month of every year, and they know that the market building is fine

I genuinely don't get your attitude, I really don't. Preston does not need a city centre cinema, it really doesn't, it just won't work.

Sorry the markets are fine?

In what case are our rusting, unkept, LISTED Victoria markets fine. They need at the very least a renovation and a tidy up. The indoor market is similarly in a state of disrepair, that needs at the very least a tidy up, but it's not worth keeping especially when the option of inclosing our large market is on the table.

It would provide for much nicer space with a updated market, it needs making a feature out of. The markets are not currently something Preston can be proud as they need to be! The state the markets are in would be the equivalent of having the Harris in horrendous state too!

Even if the cinema wasn't on the table, I thinking tearing down the indoor market and replacing it with at the very least some shops or maybe a public square would preferable to what we currently have.

Doing nothing IS an option! You've fallen for the Tithebarn propaganda.
If Preston is to remain competitive as a major commercial centre, doing nothing is not an option. I believed that when Tithebarn was considered to be the solution, and I still believe it now in light of its cancellation. Preston city centre is fast becoming outdated compared to our rivals in the region, having changed very little since the early 90's. Compared to Manchester and Liverpool, we are an embarrassment. Even Blackpool and Blackburn are working on masterplans to redevelop the most run down parts of their central areas.
A cinema would provide an anchor for people to visit the city centre, and as such will be a catalyst for further leisure provision. This is also vital for Preston to retain its younger population. Most people my age can't wait to leave, and I can't say I blame them.

Not to mention that the Indoor Markets are one of the ugliest buildings in Preston.

Well as I say, we're going to have to disagree. I can't see things from your point of view, I genuinely can't see it.

If Preston is to remain competitive as a major commercial centre, doing nothing is not an option. I believed that when Tithebarn was considered to be the solution, and I still believe it now in light of its cancellation. Preston city centre is fast becoming outdated compared to our rivals in the region, having changed very little since the early 90's. Compared to Manchester and Liverpool, we are an embarrassment. Even Blackpool and Blackburn are working on masterplans to redevelop the most run down parts of their central areas.
A cinema would provide an anchor for people to visit the city centre, and as such will be a catalyst for further leisure provision. This is also vital for Preston to retain its younger population. Most people my age can't wait to leave, and I can't say I blame them.

Not to mention that the Indoor Markets are one of the ugliest buildings in Preston.
Quite right Accura. This town is dying on its feet, despite the enormous advantages of its human geography compared to many other towns in the region, and the University which brings multi-millions into our local economy.
Market traders are good, hard-working people. But they hate any change. Any change is bad, because they have no experience of adaption, or indeed, the world beyond their window. It's some time ago now, (the 60s and 70s) but the market traders of Blackburn and Rochdale fought tooth and nail against the change that was foistered upon them by the redevelopments of their town centres. But they didn't complain as soon as they experienced the 300% increase in turnover their stalls experienced once the work was complete. L1 is a similar modern comparison.
Yes, I probably sounded like a academic snob slagging off Berske, but surely 30 years experience exploring the best and most successful examples in the world, learning from them and writing about them to gain the first Masters Distinction given by my University in three years (not a BSc as you put Berske, but then an unwillingness to read what I posted would also indicate an unwillingness to learn) is naught to gut feeling and blind ignorance. Those of us that research these subjects (and I think that going on to study Urban Renwal after 5 years as a fully qualified architect which takes 2½ years longer than it takes to become a doctor by the way) don't do it to sneer at those who have not, but becuase we care about our evironments and want to help contribute to making things in the built environment better.
There are many contravening pressures which make this an almost uncirculable square - housing, health, education, the economy, transport, leisure, political leadership and so on, before we even get to design. So tell me Berske, would you prefer a witch-doctor or a fully accredited BMA surgeon to remove your appendix if the need be?
Sorry everyone, that twat really pissed me off.

I would imagine that building a cinema here would have a massive domino effect. Traditionally in recent years where inner city cinemas have been built, food outlets such as Yo Sushi, Cafe Rouge, Nando's and Frankie's and Benny's have followed. The city centre currently has none of this offer. There are currently loads of vacant units in some fairly pretty buildings in that area which would make fantastic cafes and restaurants.


A redevelopment of this scale would completely transform the public realm and street layout of the area. And boy, does it need it! I think its a fair bet that the alleyway in between the Fish Market and Lowthian House will go, and be widened out into a proper pedestrianised street, leading to an improved crossing over the Ringway to Lawson Street.


I think you're confusing the pre-1950 single screen cinemas (such as the former one on Church Street) with the modern multiplexes. We are currently seeing a transformation of City Centres from the model of the 1980's/90's where high street retailing was the key driver. Cinemas are a vital part of this transformation.

Well I guess at least work seems to be underway at the new Town Centre Nando's and as much as I dislike chain restaurants, an outlet like Nando's does act as a kind of anchor store for the evening economy.

Whats peoples opinion on the new 6 -storey on Walker Street?

Bit of a monolithic slab of dullness, which has been dumbed down from the original uninspiring design (paneling replaced by grey brick) in my opinion.

Still better than a derelict car wash which it replaced and at least there is some scale.

Whats peoples opinion on the new 6 -storey on Walker Street?

Bit of a monolithic slab of dullness, which has been dumbed down from the original uninspiring design (paneling replaced by grey brick) in my opinion.

Still better than a derelict car wash which it replaced and at least there is some scale.

You got a picture? Not sure I've seen it.

Doing nothing IS an option!

Well, if you are representative of the majority in Preston, then Preston is totally fucked.

You criticise others for their opinion and yet offer no credible alternative. Still, if you are happy with a market selling cheap Chinese tat, good luck in your future life. I'd hate to be like you and have absolutely zero ambition.

Well, if you are representative of the majority in Preston, then Preston is totally fucked.

You criticise others for their opinion and yet offer no credible alternative. Still, if you are happy with a market selling cheap Chinese tat, good luck in your future life. I'd hate to be like you and have absolutely zero ambition.

Offensive on a number of levels, well done, shall I applaud you now or wait until your next parry?

I have ambition for Preston - but we need to have focus on specific parts of the city WHILST maintaining the history and heritage that got us here in the first place.

As for the Walker Street flats they are, as seems to be standard for student flats in most parts of the city, grim and ugly.

It is a parallel universe to Wigan, there's countless people who bemoan the thought of change and yet on one local site I sometimes visit, they do nothing but call what is actually there at present. They go on about how the town is ruined by retail chains which cripple hard working, 'honest', local people.. Yet ask them if they shop at any of these independent shops or the markets and you get laughed at, saying they wouldn't shop there if it was the last place open.

The same type who complain when something shuts down but never used it or would dream of visiting in the first place. A type of person who expects to maintain some fairy tale version of the good old days without actually adhering to such a lifestyle or the remaining features of a town that idealise that time.

Offensive on a number of levels, well done, shall I applaud you now or wait until your next parry?


Not going to waste my time, you have no credible argument to offer. Wasted enough time on this thread offering an opinion backed up by experience and reasoned thought, only to get the equivalent of you (and Riversider did the same) sticking your fingers in your ears and going "lalalalala"

Oh get over yourself

I've put forward my views very clearly.

Keep the bus station
Keep the covered markets
Scrap the city centre cinema plan

What more do you want me to do? Draw a diagram?

Well done Berkse. Now what do you want to happen? Or are you of the brigade that doesn't like change and believes that things should stay the same?

Staying same will add to the brain drain. Preston doesn't just have a problem keeping people that have studied and trained at UCLan. Preston also has a problem with keeping young people who grew up here, were educated and then have since left. All of my friends who have gained an education have left. I am doing the same as soon as I complete my Masters. What sort of future does a city have that can't keep hold of its talented young people?

To summarise Preston needs to develop and move forward.

Dealing with brain drain is somewhat out of the remit of this thread. It's not something you could resolve just by knocking down the bus station.

To answer your other question - i want to protect the history and heritage of Preston whilst targeting specific areas for development. Neither the bus station nor markets need touching.

I find the idea that Preston is dying to be grossly over played. I don't think that I'll ever agree with the 'destruction zealots'

Trying to develop Preston would achieve growth and give people a reason to stay. Preston offers nothing to young people at all. Thus they leave.

What areas would you target for development?

Looks like Trampower are back at it trying to get its demonstrator line up and running again. I know a lot of people are against it, but I don't see why not. Trampower is a private company and so it won't cost the residents of Preston anything. Here's the link:

http://www.lep.co.uk/news/environment/city-tram-line-could-be-running-by-end-of-year-1-4806218

Plus since it'll be on the old Longridge-Preston branch line it shouldn't cause much road disruption.

Looks like Trampower are back at it trying to get its demonstrator line up and running again. I know a lot of people are against it, but I don't see why not. Trampower is a private company and so it won't cost the residents of Preston anything. Here's the link:

http://www.lep.co.uk/news/environment/city-tram-line-could-be-running-by-end-of-year-1-4806218

Plus since it'll be on the old Longridge-Preston branch line it shouldn't cause much road disruption.


It's a complete farce, that's what it is.

There's no reason why anyone would make the journey from Fletcher Road to Skeffy Road. It's an expensive vanity project, another Edinburgh tram scheme mess in the making. There's enough buses around the greater Deepdale area, and almost no realistic areas for expansion, it's complete lunacy

Anyone who supports this mad sham needs to have a quiet sit down and a long talking too. Sorry, but I just can't see the point of this costly madness.

It's a complete farce, that's what it is.

There's no reason why anyone would make the journey from Fletcher Road to Skeffy Road. It's an expensive vanity project, another Edinburgh tram scheme mess in the making. There's enough buses around the greater Deepdale area, and almost no realistic areas for expansion, it's complete lunacy

Anyone who supports this mad sham needs to have a quiet sit down and a long talking too. Sorry, but I just can't see the point of this costly madness.

Good luck to them. Fortune favours .........

Hope they go on to use the tunnel which is near the uni and link up with Preston Station/Fishergate Centre.

Good luck to them. Fortune favours .........

Hope they go on to use the tunnel which is near the uni and link up with Preston Station/Fishergate Centre.

Those tunnels are all but collapsed inside - there's supporting poles along most points, it would be even MORE wasteful to repair them (and that's before we get into how to build the infrastructure and all the rest of it for the trams themselves)

Fortune certainly does favour the brave, thought it's not brave to build a tram line along half a mile of Deepdale in the hope to somehow outperform Preston Bus and Stagecoach. I call it "foolish", at my most polite.

...Given the chance, you'd have probably told a young Brunel his time would be better spent learning needlework.

What areas would you target for development?

By the looks of it, nowhere!!

"Eeee, by 'eck, nor change needed round 'ere lad. Just need to 'ave Preston for locals and none of them students or foreigners"

It's a complete farce, that's what it is.
:/

There's no reason why anyone would make the journey from Fletcher Road to Skeffy Road.
This is a demonstrator line, being proposed by a private company in order to demonstrate their products, including the trams, cables, and track. If Preston eventually gets a tram line or two out of it, then I'm all for it. In the meantime, Preston should be happy with the investment being received from a private firm, along with all the jobs it brings. Perhaps you would like the Preston-Longridge line to continue to rot?

It's an expensive vanity project, another Edinburgh tram scheme mess in the making.
How is that the case at all? The Edinburgh tram project has been so painful because of major disagreements between Transport Scotland and the original German firm contracted to carry out the majority of the work. How do you know that this situation will happen in Preston? Additionally, the majority of Edinburgh's tram line is on the street, whereas the majority of the proposed Guild Line in Preston is utilising disused railway alignments.

There's enough buses around the greater Deepdale area, and almost no realistic areas for expansion, it's complete lunacy
There are major advantages to this project.
1. It provides the people of densely populated Deepdale and Ribbleton (including visiting football fans) with a quick and direct link to the city centre and the railway station, something which is currently not available.
2. Deepdale Retail Park would finally be provided with a decent public transport facility, something that the buses have always failed to do. As would the new Morrisons store at the former James Hall depot.
3. A quick and direct link to the city centre would be available from J31A, reducing the number of cars travelling into the centre, as well as providing a link to the major new commercial developments in that part of Preston.

That is of course the transport benefits, ignoring the major regeneration benefits that would come with it. Even you can't disagree that Deepdale and Ribbleton are in dire need of investment.

Those tunnels are all but collapsed inside - there's supporting poles along most points, it would be even MORE wasteful to repair them (and that's before we get into how to build the infrastructure and all the rest of it for the trams themselves)
Miley Tunnel isn't in too bad condition as far as derelict railway tunnels go. After all, it did have trains running through it as recently as the 1990's. But it would indeed be expensive to bring it back into use. But this is not what Trampower are proposing to do. The line would be brought to street level on Deepdale Street, at which point it will run down Church Street and into the City Centre:
http://www.prestontrampower.co.uk/uploads/downloads/preston-tramline.pdf

Those tunnels are all but collapsed inside - there's supporting poles along most points, it would be even MORE wasteful to repair them (and that's before we get into how to build the infrastructure and all the rest of it for the trams themselves)

Fortune certainly does favour the brave, thought it's not brave to build a tram line along half a mile of Deepdale in the hope to somehow outperform Preston Bus and Stagecoach. I call it "foolish", at my most polite.

Two things...

The Tunnels are not all but collapsed. You are talking utter shit. The Fylde Road bridge had extra strength put in it with concrete columns. They were put to one side to allow trams/trains/whatever to pass through the tunnel. The rest of the tunnel is completely fine. There is no extra structure or anything in any of the rest of the tunnel. I know this because I have been in it. So I suggest you do your research before you make things up.

Secondly the line is a demonstrator line. It is not the full line. The line is proposed when fully built to go from Red scar to the city centre via Deepdale Road. What they are building is to demonstrate the line. Also the old tunnel is not part of the proposals. Rightly so as any station for the University would cost a fortune, where as any along the rest of the route could be ground level and therefore cheaper. Again do your research.

Dang Accura beat me to it!

The biggest obstruction to reusing the tunnels is not the tunnels themselves, but where the route would go once it reaches the university end. One option would be to follow the alignment as far as the WCML, and then construct an elevated section of tramway, similar to this example at Nottingham station:
http://www.thetrams.co.uk/net/pictures/000149/image/original.jpg
This would run parallel to the railway line and then run alongside the railway station, with a stop near the Fishergate Centre entrance, and then continue down the former East Lancashire line, through Lower Penwortham and Lostock Hall to a Park and Ride terminus at the Sainsbury's Bamber Bridge roundabout.

Alternatively (and probably more cost effectively) tram-train technology could be used to run on the current railway tracks into Preston Station, and make use of the disused platform 7, with a following turnout towards the disused East Lancs route.

Cheers CaptainJason and Accura

Two things...
as any station for the University would cost a fortune, where as any along the rest of the route could be ground level and therefore cheaper. Again do your research.


Is there no scope for a station at a tunnel portal? - i.e. open air.

The biggest obstruction to reusing the tunnels is not the tunnels themselves, but where the route would go once it reaches the university end. One option would be to follow the alignment as far as the WCML, and then construct an elevated section of tramway, similar to this example at Nottingham station:
This would run parallel to the railway line and then run alongside the railway station, with a stop near the Fishergate Centre entrance, and then continue down the former East Lancashire line, through Lower Penwortham and Lostock Hall to a Park and Ride terminus at the Sainsbury's Bamber Bridge roundabout.

Alternatively (and probably more cost effectively) tram-train technology could be used to run on the current railway tracks into Preston Station, and make use of the disused platform 7, with a following turnout towards the disused East Lancs route.

Sounds interesting - hope they have the vision and political will for it!

The problem with building a tram station underground is that not only do you have to get people down there, and then you have to provide alternative means for for fire escapes back to the surface. So that is a lot of costly digging down, also there would be any CPO's and demolitions for around said station. You would have to do this whether the station was in the tunnel itself or in one of the tunnel portals. Also I don't know anything about the requirements for tunnel sizes with regards to Trams so the tunnel might not even fit current standards.

At the same time it would be rather cool to see the tunnel re-used and for the University to have a station :P

There was a different tram proposal a few years ago which proposed a University station. The site was where the old line crosses over the former Lancaster Canal:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7b/Maudland_Bridge_station.jpg
There is potential for good pedestrian access to Fylde Road and the key university buildings from here. It was also the site of Maudland Bridge station when the line was open to passengers:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maudland_Bridge_railway_station

It's been a while since I heard any update on the tunnels but I was under the impression that they were being held up by supporting poles due to their dangerous state.

I'd be very wary about putting trams down Church Street - the road is to narrow and with a lot of interconnecting roads with residential properties etc. which would be disrupted beyond any reasonable use.

There are major advantages to this project.
1. It provides the people of densely populated Deepdale and Ribbleton (including visiting football fans) with a quick and direct link to the city centre and the railway station, something which is currently not available.
2. Deepdale Retail Park would finally be provided with a decent public transport facility, something that the buses have always failed to do. As would the new Morrisons store at the former James Hall depot.
3. A quick and direct link to the city centre would be available from J31A, reducing the number of cars travelling into the centre, as well as providing a link to the major new commercial developments in that part of Preston.

That is of course the transport benefits, ignoring the major regeneration benefits that would come with it. Even you can't disagree that Deepdale and Ribbleton are in dire need of investment.

There's already a link from Deepdale to the city centre. To sell trams as an alternative would mean having to run them down the length of Church Street and Fishergate (route 1) or along the whole ex-train line and parallel to the WCML (route 2), both of which would be far too expensive to justify. When there's already buses running through Deepdale and Ribbleton in all directions I can't see the point of adding more.

I agree with you that the areas need regeneration, there's no doubt there. But this scheme is not the way forward, not when the city as a whole is too tightly compacted to justify having an additional transport option. "Take the tram to Deepdale" makes no sense when people know they can go by car, bus or even walk.

I'd be very wary about putting trams down Church Street - the road is to narrow and with a lot of interconnecting roads with residential properties etc. which would be disrupted beyond any reasonable use.

Clearly you have not seen how the tram system run around Manchester city centre. Roads equally as narrow, if not narrower than Church Street, which much busier intersections. Running Trams up Church Street wouldn't be a problem at all. In fact putting stops for the tram system along it may even trigger investment for the street, which lets face it, is largely a dump.

There's already a link from Deepdale to the city centre. To sell trams as an alternative would mean having to run them down the length of Church Street and Fishergate (route 1) or along the whole ex-train line and parallel to the WCML (route 2), both of which would be far too expensive to justify. When there's already buses running through Deepdale and Ribbleton in all directions I can't see the point of adding more.

I agree with you that the areas need regeneration, there's no doubt there. But this scheme is not the way forward, not when the city as a whole is too tightly compacted to justify having an additional transport option. "Take the tram to Deepdale" makes no sense when people know they can go by car, bus or even walk.

How much exactly would this cost? Do you know? Or are you using your opinion based knowledge.

What scheme is the way forward for regeneration? Still a question you have not answered.

The whole point of the tram is to get cars off the road. To take Deepdale Retail Park as an example the traffic round there is horrendous. Add in the new Morrisons and other developments and it will only get worse. Trams would connect this are into the city centre and transport interchanges properly. You would not walk from the city centre to the retail park. That is a good 30min walk. Plus shopping as well? You are having a laugh! A tram system would offer the capacity to move the amount of people around that the area attracts, without adding buses to already congested roads. If there was the perfect place in Preston for a tram line, the proposed line 1 is it!

Fine, another issue that the forum's experts, degree holders and professionals can barge me into a corner with.

Fine, another issue that the forum's experts, degree holders and professionals can barge me into a corner with.

Why are you thinking this way? There's more to this forum than winning points over others. It's all about a shared learning experience.

PS. I still think those tunnels should be re-used.

Fine, another issue that the forum's experts, degree holders and professionals can barge me into a corner with.

Well, that's the attitude of a loser if ever I have seen one.

From what I understand the initial proposal is for a demonstrator line for prospective clients - not something to be run as a commercial transport link - I very much doubt it will even be a form of transport available to the public except on open days etc.

Surely new locally based manufacturing is to be encouraged however?? This part of the old train line is not even available as a footpath currently, just overgrown waste ground.

I imagine that the further proposals are to demonstrate that tram systems don't have to cost the earth, although I imagine the crossing of the Ringway will be a challenge logistically - The Ribbleton lane/Deepdale Road junction is also a poor one currently. Church Street I don't imagine would be too much problem - It is a one way dual carriageway that is lightly trafficked and could easily be cut down to one lane - The taper at the Ringway junction is also very wide. The side roads are also lightly trafficked.

One thing in its favour is that the Deepdale Road/Ribbleton lane junction is one of those that LCC potentially is looking at receiving a multi million pound fine from the EU for poor air quality.

On another point - I have seen some interesting renders for the planned refurbishment of the old Odeon Building, depending on who they find as a tenant.

It seems Luminar have taken out a further long lease on Lava, so the building is probably going to be saved and turned into I imagine a bar/restaurant

Good news I think. Don't think I am at liberty to publish the renders at this stage, but the planned restored frontage looks great.

Well, that's the attitude of a loser if ever I have seen one.

When up against a cabal of arrogant "experts" flinging around their degrees, what chance have I got?

If anybody cares, Riley's the snooker club, has closed down its site off the market square, near to where the council want someone to build a cinema within a 3.5 mile radius of two existing multiplexes.

On another point - I have seen some interesting renders for the planned refurbishment of the old Odeon Building, depending on who they find as a tenant.

It seems Luminar have taken out a further long lease on Lava, so the building is probably going to be saved and turned into I imagine a bar/restaurant

Good news I think. Don't think I am at liberty to publish the renders at this stage, but the planned restored frontage looks great.

Sounds very positive! I'd be interested to see the renders as soon as their release is permitted. I am quite surprised that Luminar have extended their lease on the building. Since MAC's has opened on Friargate, it seems to have stolen a lot of their customer base. That coupled with the fact that Luminar went into administration not long ago.

With regards to Riley's closing down, a pity, but further evidence that the markets area can no longer be starved of investment. The buildings of the 60's, and the town planning of the 90's just don't cut it anymore. And that's the opinion of a Born and bred prestonian, not a graduate! :bash:

When up against a cabal of arrogant "experts" flinging around their degrees, what chance have I got?

LOL, and you accuse other people of being abusive to you! Boo hoo hoo.

All I saw was some reasonable arguments as to the benefits of such a development, backed up with rational thought (in my case, real world experience of such developments being successful whilst within a much shorter distance of other, equally successful facilities - something you had no argument against that I could see)

If anybody cares, Riley's the snooker club, has closed down its site off the market square, near to where the council want someone to build a cinema within a 3.5 mile radius of two existing multiplexes.

And why has Rileys really closed? A successful business does not just shut down. Are they relocating? Is there not enough business for them? Let's get some facts shall we?

You really are a very unpleasant man.

:cheers:Sounds very positive! I'd be interested to see the renders as soon as their release is permitted. I am quite surprised that Luminar have extended their lease on the building. Since MAC's has opened on Friargate, it seems to have stolen a lot of their customer base. That coupled with the fact that Luminar went into administration not long ago.

With regards to Riley's closing down, a pity, but further evidence that the markets area can no longer be starved of investment. The buildings of the 60's, and the town planning of the 90's just don't cut it anymore. And that's the opinion of a Born and bred prestonian, not a graduate! :bash:

I think we do have a debt of gratitude to Luminar for saving the huge and magnificent old Odeon building. The owners wont subdivided the non-Lava part of the building in order to create maximum impact from the restored 3 storey frontage.

The restoration planned will present the incoming tenant with an as-new premises, including restoration of the huge glass dome which will be visible from all three floors.

Is there a tenant lined up or is this a speculative?

You really are a very unpleasant man.

I'm not the one called people arrogant and belittling their education qualifications and other status.

But another neat swerving of questions put to you again. Further evidence of the obvious....

Is there a tenant lined up or is this a speculative?

There isn't a tenant currently and I guess the work won't happen if a tenant cant be secured, but the building is being promoted on a "as new" basis to prospective leaseholders and the owners will start the refurb once a lease is agreed.

You really are a very unpleasant man.

Respectfully, you haven't constructed your points very well. You don't have to be an academic or an qualified town planner to have an opinion, but your approach seems to be a simple 'No' to proposals being put forward, without presenting any alternative. I'm curious to hear your views about how you think Preston should move forward over the next 20 years.

In fairness, your contributions certainly seem to have brought this previously ailing thread back to life!

Sounds very positive! I'd be interested to see the renders as soon as their release is permitted. I am quite surprised that Luminar have extended their lease on the building. Since MAC's has opened on Friargate, it seems to have stolen a lot of their customer base. That coupled with the fact that Luminar went into administration not long ago.

With regards to Riley's closing down, a pity, but further evidence that the markets area can no longer be starved of investment. The buildings of the 60's, and the town planning of the 90's just don't cut it anymore. And that's the opinion of a Born and bred prestonian, not a graduate! :bash:

I remember reading somewhere just after Luminar went into administration that Lava in Preston was one of their better performing clubs, this seems to be confirmed by the fact they have already shut a fair few Lava/Ignites and Liquid/Envys elsewhere!

Speaking of MAC's, as much as I detest that place, its good to see something down that end of town that is successful and providing some sort of competition for The Assembly!

Agreed. Cant stand MACs either...but it's brought an empty unit back into use and its been launched very well.

I remember reading somewhere just after Luminar went into administration that Lava in Preston was one of their better performing clubs, this seems to be confirmed by the fact they have already shut a fair few Lava/Ignites and Liquid/Envys elsewhere!

Speaking of MAC's, as much as I detest that place, its good to see something down that end of town that is successful and providing some sort of competition for The Assembly!

There was a time under its previous owners Northern Leisure, that it was the best performing night club in the country.

Some more pictures of the Sandown Court. Not sure I like the yellow colour, but I think it definitely makes them look better than they were. They're also replacing the window frames with what might be aluminium ones, or they could just be silver painted plastic :P.

On a side note scaffolding seems to be going up around the smaller flats at the junction to Manchester Road with some cladding being taken off those, they just cleaning or are they recladding them again.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-2vBV4i3mpPk/UDYPkfkCyxI/AAAAAAAAAUg/6Mh9PytGElY/s640/12+-+1
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-2baa5ASy584/UDYPkbNkw9I/AAAAAAAAAUg/F680IiiXkgg/s640/12+-+2
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-2iaP3hNPgcw/UDYPkdG-HrI/AAAAAAAAAUg/a9cVbiPNcd0/s640/12+-+3

The Steakout restaurant on Cannon Street has closed.

The Guild Tringe

This year's Preston Tringe has this year been moved back from it's usual last week of July slot to coincide with the Preston Guild, 31 Aug - 9 Sept. The Tringe is not part of the Guild itself, but we once again thank the City Council for their financial support.
Our 99 shows are on at 7 different venues - The Adelphi, The Angel, The Arts & Media Centre (Preston FM), Black Horse, Frog & Bucket, Avenham Park, and The Continental and there is something for everyone of all ages. If you haven't seen our 16 page brochure around town, you can download it from our website,http://www.tringe.co.uk/ on the Shows and Tickets tab.
If you're out and about on Friday evening look out for any of the Free Preston Light Night shows and exhibitions at 18 city centre venues, including The Harris, Waterstones, Mystery Tea House, Preston Railway Station, The Angel and the Flag Market. Start by picking up a map from The Angel on Lune St.
Enjoy the Guild, everyone!

On a side note scaffolding seems to be going up around the smaller flats at the junction to Manchester Road with some cladding being taken off those, they just cleaning or are they recladding them again.


They're being subjected to the same as Sandown - though the rules are slightly different being Council Flats / Housing Association rather than privately owned flats.

So more magnolia tower blocks for Preston?

Sandown Court really stands out now on the skyline! I was driving down Leyand Road in Penwortham yesterday and from a distance it looks good. If I hadn't been driving I would have taken some photos to get a different perspective.

So more magnolia tower blocks for Preston?

Hopefully the colouring will be different. I dont think turning the area into a mini-Benidorm lookalike is the path to improving Avenham!

should keep it. Get it listed.http://www.anuz.info/jie1.jpg

From the LEP


By David Coates
Published on Tuesday 4 September 2012 19:27

A design expert has unveiled a new vision for the regeneration of Preston city centre.

Ben Casey, the founder of design agency, The Chase, has opened an exhibition of proposals for potential future develops across the city centre.

It includes installing a huge department store in the city’s iconic bus station, public art throughout the city and reviving its historic markets.

The exhibition, named Plan C, is open in the Victoria building at the University of Central Lancashire.

Mr Casey said he believed the future regeneration of the city would be as “a progressive European micro-city” developed in a into a number of squares rather than in one American-style “super-mall” as envisaged by the architects of its collapsed £700m Tithebarn dream.

He said: “The days of glass and steel developments dominated by a big anchor store have gone, at least for the moment.

“So we need another way, we need to be more inventive.

“A lot of the things you would associate with a modern city are already here – the parks, civic squares like the Flag Market, iconic architecture like the bus station and the Harris Museum.

“That is not a bad place to start.”

He said he wanted members of the public to visit the exhibition and give feedback to the proposals.

It is open for the next month.

For more on the exhibition, see Wednesday’s Lancashire Evening Post

Went down this afternoon. There were some very impressive concepts. Got plenty of pictures which I'll post either later on or tomorrow. Well worth a visit. The proposals to turn the bus station into half retail/half bus station were shown in greater detail. I must admit, they were very impressive and the idea has become quite attractive to me. However, I just can't get my head around how it could be done practically, especially given the bus station's weakening structure. I'll be certainly giving positive feedback though.

The facade of the new student block on Walker Street is being installed. It has done wonders for the building...so much so that it's now my favourite student block!

Some pretty major news about the CBD here too! Architect on board, funding secured, anticipation of construction starting next year...after all the disappointments over recent years, can we dare to believe?

http://www.lep.co.uk/news/business/5m-block-to-kick-start-office-quarter-1-4896804

I've just read that article, I can't see 5 million providing a gateway, landmark style office building for this site, though.. Looking forward to these concept images, mind.

Some pretty major news about the CBD here too! Architect on board, funding secured, anticipation of construction starting next year...after all the disappointments over recent years, can we dare to believe?

http://www.lep.co.uk/news/business/5m-block-to-kick-start-office-quarter-1-4896804

I'm not getting too excited until we see some serious progress as we have been here too many times before. Until we see an approved planning application and something physical happening on the ground I refuse to get my hopes up!

The proposal to build offices on the Hill Street car park is madness. Utterly stupid idea.

Where will people park after this development?
How will existing traffic flow be affected?
How will current bus services on Ring Road and Friargate be affected?
Why build new offices on a site with one entrance?
Why not use the offices on West Strand?
Why not use the offices off Market Square?
Why not use the land off Queen Street?
Why not use the Docks?
Why build new offices without confirmed occupants?
How many construction jobs will be offered to Prestonians?
How many office jobs will be offered to Prestonians?

The proposal to build offices on the Hill Street car park is madness. Utterly stupid idea.

Where will people park after this development?

No comment has been made on what provision will be made on site yet, but there is adequate capacity in the Bus Station car park (that's the big, perfectly located, 100% fit for purpose building a very, very short way up the road)

How will existing traffic flow be affected?

If there is parking equal to what is currently there or no parking, then traffic may not be affected in any great way. Depends on who many people work there and how they get there. Afetr all, the location is in very easy distance of bus and rail services.

How will current bus services on Ring Road and Friargate be affected?

Why would they be? At worst, they may get busier with office workers, but this development is not affecting either of these roads that I can see, so there would be zero impact on routings etc. If the demand increased, so might services/buses

Why build new offices on a site with one entrance?

Why not, again we do not know what on-site parking etc is available and therefore how access will be managed. I work on an office park (reasonably well occupied) with one entrance and suffer not a bit for it.

Why not use the offices on West Strand? Are they not full/near full? BAE Systems and Places for People? May not be large enough floor space available for larger companies?

Why not use the offices off Market Square?

No idea - unattractive for some reason - don't know, so can't speculate.

Why not use the land off Queen Street?

Is that not all earmarked for flats/Tesco etc? Otherwise, I guess it is remote from public transport and could have a greater impact on traffic in that area.

Why not use the Docks?

Where on the Docks? Can't think of suitable sites off the top of my head - but again, makes access near 100% car focused (which, to be fair, I know you have no issues with)

Why build new offices without confirmed occupants?

Standard practice, risky yes, but nothing whatsover would happen if such risks are not taken. If they are built and not occupied, it simply proves companies have limited interest in Preston - which will be your big problem when BAE Systems (for example) does start winding down.

How many construction jobs will be offered to Prestonians?
How many office jobs will be offered to Prestonians?

I imagine as many for whoever will apply for them, though why you would cut out people who live in Chorley, Leyland etc. is a bit beyond me.

Where will people park after this development?
> On the various multi-storey car parks around the city centre, which are of a much higher capacity than the Hill Street car park. St Georges and the Market Car park are a stones throw from Hill St

How will existing traffic flow be affected?
> No parking on site and the roads are not being changed. It wont.

How will current bus services on Ring Road and Friargate be affected?
> The roads around the development are not being changed. They wont.

Why build new offices on a site with one entrance?
> From a security point of view it is much better to have one way in, and one way out. That way the building can be secured and stop people who should not be there wandering in. Look at every other office building in Preston.

Why not use the offices on West Strand?
> Building in the city centre provides a city centre location with high spec offices for companies that would want a city centre location in a prestigious building. The new building can offer that for companies. West Strand does not offer this.

Why not use the offices off Market Square?
> Lowthian House is clearly not desirable to private business. It has not been let out since UCLan vacated the building. As it is in Private ownership it is up to them to address this, not the city council.

Why not use the land off Queen Street?
> That land is not in ownership by the city council. Therefore they can not simply build there. They would have to CPO it, which would both be costly and pointless. Also Queen Street does not have the same benefits of location that Hill St does.

Why not use the Docks?
>Same reason as above.

Why build new offices without confirmed occupants?
>They are currently looking for occupants. The building is not built yet. However there have to be plans of the building for prospective tennants to see before they would sign. Would you buy a house that had no plans, planning permission or anything?

How many construction jobs will be offered to Prestonians?
>The tender will be offered to the contractor who gives the best price to the council and offers the best value for the tax payers in Preston. Preston does have some big contractors and I would have thought it would go to them.

How many office jobs will be offered to Prestonians?
>That depends purely on the businesses that locate in the building. But dont forget the money that the building will bring to local shops and businesses as well as people to maintain/clean/secure the building.

Think that covers everything.

Also it will be fantastic to see the proposals!

The proposal to build offices on the Hill Street car park is madness. Utterly stupid idea.

Where will people park after this development?
How will existing traffic flow be affected?
How will current bus services on Ring Road and Friargate be affected?
Why build new offices on a site with one entrance?
Why not use the offices on West Strand?
Why not use the offices off Market Square?
Why not use the land off Queen Street?
Why not use the Docks?
Why build new offices without confirmed occupants?
How many construction jobs will be offered to Prestonians?
How many office jobs will be offered to Prestonians?

Come on! I can understand some reservations about knocking down the Indoor Market and the disruption that would cause, but building over a small flat car park and taking down two industrial sheds? (Staples and that nasty shoe shop). Its an absolutely dismal approach at the moment with that site and the Aldi monstrosity on the other corner.

Any new development would be welcome and its not like you (or the council) will be paying for it so why not? People working in the city centre help to make for a vibrant centre and I for one would rather have city centre amenities at lunch time than a burger van in an industrial park next to a motorway

I for one would rather have city centre amenities at lunch time than a burger van in an industrial park next to a motorway

Absolutely, the variety in the city centre is much better!

Just driven down Queen Street. Work is progressing in earnest on the second block of Sandown Court. Work also progressing on the 3 smaller blocks. I hope they don't do them all the same colour!!

Just driven down Queen Street. Work is progressing in earnest on the second block of Sandown Court. Work also progressing on the 3 smaller blocks. I hope they don't do them all the same colour!!

I think they look much better. Not sure of the colour still, but they're definitely better than they were. The new windows are much better as well. Any more news on the queens street retail development and when that is planning to start?

Second, I didn't realise they knocked down the back of the corn exchange when they re-did it. I assume that in 1990 the public hall was in such a bad state it wasn't viable to spend money on. Is that right? A real shame!

I think they look much better. Not sure of the colour still, but they're definitely better than they were. The new windows are much better as well. Any more news on the queens street retail development and when that is planning to start?

Second, I didn't realise they knocked down the back of the corn exchange when they re-did it. I assume that in 1990 the public hall was in such a bad state it wasn't viable to spend money on. Is that right? A real shame!

No LCC wanted the land for road widening and they pig headily kept to their original 1970 idea, when the bypass was originally supposed to have been built, of knocking down much of the Public Hall, despite PCC owning the Hill Street flat car park and I think the land that Staples was built on which could have been used instead.

No LCC wanted the land for road widening and they pig headily kept to their original 1970 idea, when the bypass was originally supposed to have been built, of knocking down much of the Public Hall, despite PCC owning the Hill Street flat car park and I think the land that Staples was built on which could have been used instead.

Quite. The most interesting bit of the Public Hall architecturally was the interior of the Hall itself which was also widely regarded as the best acoustic space for music in the provinces - an accident, as it was not designed for that purpose. I was lucky enough to sing in it in the Preston Schools Festival when I was 8. Though the exterior of the demolished part (80% of the gross floor area) was relatively unassuming, its colonnade of strong, brick arches could have been refurbished into a lovely contribution to Preston's streetscapes rather than extending the seemingly indelible scar both visibly and practically that Ringway and its extension uselessly scribes upon this town.

And the refaced Sandown Court is an embarrassment to this town, and the people that live in it. Like me.

No LCC wanted the land for road widening and they pig headily kept to their original 1970 idea, when the bypass was originally supposed to have been built, of knocking down much of the Public Hall, despite PCC owning the Hill Street flat car park and I think the land that Staples was built on which could have been used instead.

Do you mean the widening works for when the A59 Penwortham Bypass was built from Strand Road to Ringway during the early 90s?

Do you mean the widening works for when the A59 Penwortham Bypass was built from Strand Road to Ringway during the early 90s?

Yes the very one. It blows my mind that the vacant land was not used at the other side of the ringway, instead of taking down one of Preston's main public buildings. That's the unaccountable Lancashire County Council for you though

Yes the very one. It blows my mind that the vacant land was not used at the other side of the ringway, instead of taking down one of Preston's main public buildings. That's the unaccountable Lancashire County Council for you though

Indeed again. As a regional road, the A59 comes under the LCC remit rather than the PBC / PCC remit. Preston Council should / could have fought it, but didn't want to because after the Guild Hall was built the very limited imagination of all Preston's councillors could not think of a use for it and certainly objected to paying for the upkeep of a fine structure their tiny minds could not get their heads around. :bash:
Preston Council has always been completely rubbish since at least 1930, but LCC is a complete void of usefulness and always has been. I always vote in local elections because I'm lucky to live in a country where I can do so, but I always spoil my LCC voting slip as I don't think it should exist.

Here are the pics I took at that exhibition at UCLAN the other week. Turns out I only took 3 pictures.... now as far as I know, none of these renders are actual proposals, just concepts:

Not quite sure what this is supposed to be, or where it is
http://sphotos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/s720x720/156252_10151206550059379_1556354846_n.jpg

Central Tower. We have seen this before in the initial concept images for the CBD
http://sphotos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/564519_10151206550279379_1758786950_n.jpg

Hill Street Car Park office building. Again, I don't know if this is an actual proposal, despite the fact that we know an proposal exists for the site
http://sphotos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/391748_10151206550444379_104405597_n.jpg

On a more current note, looks like the plans for the market are set to press ahead. I think its a very positive note that market traders are driving this rather than the council. Doing so should provoke far less objections.
http://www.lep.co.uk/news/business/traders-in-new-market-plan-1-4951555

We need to get the ball rolling on these smaller projects ASAP now Tithebarn has died. In addition to Blackpool breaking ground on Tithebarn, Blackburn has approved its new bus station and cathedral quarter:
http://www.architectsjournal.co.uk/pictures/576x432fitpad[0]/3/6/5/1298365_capita_blackburn_bus_station_View_1___PRESS_IMG.jpg

Like how it has taken them just over a year to get from pre-planning to this stage, and Preston still has no firm proposal after 16 years of pre-planning :ohno: Just shows what progress can be made when you don't have LCC f**king everything up for you.

I couldn't feel good about the market demolition if I tried. Rankin and Rawlinson have conspired to blackmail, effectively, the market traders who have been forced out of a perfectly functional, fit for purpose building.

There's no point going down this cul-de-sac again but I've yet to see any justification for a cinema being built within a 3.5 mile radius of two existing multiplexes. If Rankin thinks that money will go anywhere beyond cashpoint to counter he's dumber than I thought.

There's no point going down this cul-de-sac again but I've yet to see any justification for a cinema being built within a 3.5 mile radius of two existing multiplexes. If Rankin thinks that money will go anywhere beyond cashpoint to counter he's dumber than I thought.

No, because obviously real-world examples of such arrangements actually working clearly don't cut the mustard. :nuts: then again, you are quickly building a reputaion for ignoring discussions that disagree with you!

By your "logic" the entire city centre shopping district should be shut down as its purpose is adequately served by Deepdale Retail Park, Capitol Centre, Sainsbury's and Asda.

I couldn't feel good about the market demolition if I tried. Rankin and Rawlinson have conspired to blackmail, effectively, the market traders who have been forced out of a perfectly functional, fit for purpose building.

There's no point going down this cul-de-sac again but I've yet to see any justification for a cinema being built within a 3.5 mile radius of two existing multiplexes. If Rankin thinks that money will go anywhere beyond cashpoint to counter he's dumber than I thought.

Bury opened a town centre multiplex recently - hardly the west end of London!
Preston Council are also not getting into the movie business. A multiplex operator wants to open in Preston City Centre and has done for a few years since Tithbarn was alive. You need a pretty big site to open a multiplex - such as where the indoor market is currently. They are actually going to pay money for the site which will then go into the redevelopment of the market as per the Evening Post article.

Peter Rankin is not going to be selling popcorn inside, but PC like the idea of a cinema as it is an alternative to the pub - however it is a commercial transaction, not Preston Council diversifying. Cinemas main audience is the under 25's - always has been. The vast majority of them don't drive, making a town centre a good location. Whoever looks for new sites for this particular operator probably sees Preston as a good bet, as it has a huge number of non driving under 25 years old living in the centre due to the university campuses there - simple really isn't it??

PC like the idea of a cinema as it is an alternative to the pub - however it is a commercial transaction, not Preston Council diversifying. Cinemas main audience is the under 25's - always has been. The vast majority of them don't drive, making a town centre a good location. Whoever looks for new sites for this particular operator probably sees Preston as a good bet, as it has a huge number of non driving under 25 years old living in the centre due to the university campuses there - simple really isn't it??

Very good points, very well made.

It's impossible to see pr1 as anything but a WUM, so let's all just ignore her / him.

I'm sorry but designating me a WUM because I don't sign up to the PC propaganda is laughable. Is this a case of 'agree with me = right, disagree with me = wrong" ?

My opposition to the cinema is on very sound principles. The concept of a city centre cinema is outdated and old fashioned. It no longer suits the modern city centre dynamic. Specifically, it doesn't suit being built around the back of a nightclub.

Provide an example of a good quality city centre dynamic, because all the ones I'm thinking of have a city centre cinema.

My opposition to the cinema is on very sound principles. The concept of a city centre cinema is outdated and old fashioned. It no longer suits the modern city centre dynamic. Specifically, it doesn't suit being built around the back of a nightclub.
Can you then please explain the large number of city/town centres that DO have cinemas adjacent to drinking establishments and operate successfully?

E.g. Basingstoke with a Vue cinema directly adjacent to a Lloyds No. 1 bar and less than 2 miles from an "out of town" multiplex. The two have co-existed successfully for one decade.

How does the Printworks in Manchester manage, a cinema surrounded by bars?

I am sure I can mention more, but as you'll ignore anything that provides evidence against your view whilst offering nothing of value in return, I'll save myself the effort.

Lets not forget the old Odeon closed in 1992? (I think?). But since then UCLan has grown massively, with a lot of student accommodation within walking distance of the cinema site so I imagine this would also be a factor, considering many see getting the bus to either the Docks or Capitol Centre as serious effort, don't run frequently and late at night (Park and Ride for example) and don't provide student rates unlike other large cities. Just a thought!

A city centre cinema is key to establishing a nightime economy that isn't based on getting wasted. Good point about UCLAN too. That is several thousand youngsters right on the doorstep of this development.

A city centre cinema is key to establishing a nightime economy that isn't based on getting wasted.

This is the bit that I am eager to be educated as to why it is a bad thing. :lol:

I'm sorry but designating me a WUM because I don't sign up to the PC propaganda is laughable. Is this a case of 'agree with me = right, disagree with me = wrong" ?

My opposition to the cinema is on very sound principles. The concept of a city centre cinema is outdated and old fashioned. It no longer suits the modern city centre dynamic. Specifically, it doesn't suit being built around the back of a nightclub.

I think it is your idea of what a town centre cinema is that is outdated and old fashioned. Were not taking about re-opening a single screen monolith like the old Odeon or New Vic. That is the type of town centre cinema that has had its day. Again this idea of people queuing round the block to get in thus stood outside Squires- it will be a mulitplex with many different screens starting at the different times, not a 2000 seater single single screen cinema. There Isn't queues going out of the door at this type of cinema - even busy ones.

Also it is likely that there will be a number of concessions inside, therefore a huge lobby area. This is part of how modern multiplexes make their revenue. No need for Squires to affect anything.

Again this isn't PC propaganda - this is a commercial venture from a cinema operator who wants to open in Preston City Centre and PC own probably the only viable sites that are large enough. Why don't you let them worry about Squires?

Also it is likely that there will be a number of concessions inside, therefore a huge lobby area. This is part of how modern multiplexes make their revenue.

I think I'm not that far out in stating that ticket sales and concessions each account for around 50% of a multiplex's income, but the "food" and drink account for 80% of its profit.

The Fishergate Centre has been sold to a new owner. The article states that the new owners have no immediate plan to make any major changes to the centre, but that they will be drawing up a a long term plan. Also mentions that they have seen, but will not be proceeding with the FG2 plans put forward in 2006 as it the plans are no longer appropriate for the retail climate.

Just stumbled across these on the Preston Digital Media Archive on flickr.com. Looks like the original proposal for the Penwortham Flyover, the route instead following the former WLR railway route (which at the time possibly would have made more sense), then going onto a flyover heading down Strand Road. Looking at it, it looks like they were going to make Fishergate the main route into town as opposed to the current route of the A59:
http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6232/6326006414_5b932b26ec_b.jpg

http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6043/6325253791_ce9ba5dca3_b.jpg

http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6043/6325253791_ce9ba5dca3_b.jpg

So, the six lane motorway heading out of the top of that picture is Fishergate Hill? Just struggling to orientate myself!

Yep! :) The road where the flyover ends to the left is Strand Road East, and the point where it crosses the river is the former West Lancashire Railway bridge:
http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/features/ribble_bridge/ribble_bridge10.jpg

The Broadgate/Fishergate Hill area would have looked spectacular if this had happened.... Thank goodness for budget cuts.

Actually looking at the plan, it looks like the flyover would have swept down South Meadow Lane and taken in the area of the former railway station at the bottom of Fishergate Hill, which is a housing estate built in the 80's now. I wonder if this is why the first part of South Meadow Lane was subject to a CPO and demolished?

Thank Christ that ^^^ was never built at the bottom of Fishergate Hill! The bottle neck at the Railway station would be an even greater intractable problem than it is today!

On another note, I popped into Harley's at the top of Mount St for a touch of refreshment this afternoon. In the rear courtyard / smoking space, a spray can artist was completing the second of 4 portrait mural panels, each about 7ft square. He's working from photos, and the subjects are nothing striking in terms of original thinking - Jimi Hendrix, John Lennon, Bob Marley and maybe Axl Rose (though it's hard to tell from the outline sketch at the mo) - but the quality is really very good. It's interesting to see outside art in this way and worth a look if you're passing. The murals in Belfast are interesting too (though the subject matters frequently controversial) and there being no Banksy in Preston, something we don't see often round here. Harltey's is of course a private space, but it does give an indication of how many of the most boring bits of Preston could be brightened up.

I don't know who runs Hartley's so didn't engage in much chat about it with the chap behind the bar, but asked if the pub was paying for it, if he was a volunteer wanting a 'canvass' or whether it was sponsored? Indeed, it turns out Red Bull are sponsoring it. Don't know the artists name either, but he certainly has talent. Being none of my business, it would have been rude to ask what he was getting paid, but at a guess I'd estimate £600?

And while I'm on city centre art, if you have 17 mins to spare please have a watch of this short documentary made by The Gonzo Project about Preston Tringe which took place parallel to The Guild this year: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Xwxg4dEVXU
It's a good 'warts and all' view of what we try to bring to the city with Tringe. And if you do watch it, let me know what you think of it please.

The following link contains a portal with overviews of Preston's post-Tithebarn development strategy:
http://www.preston.gov.uk/businesses/economic-regeneration/investment-prospectus/

One of the links also contains the first render of the Markets Quarter proposal:
http://www.placenorthwest.co.uk/assets/_files/cached/img/402x268.95885509839/apr_12/pnw__1335778004_Preston_markets_quarter.jpg

Looks interesting, a step in the right direction on Fishergate with the "shared surface" principle. Don't think you can fully exclude buses, but should really make better efforts to exclude all other vehicles. Not sure how they'll slow the buses down though, bus drivers don't understand "30mph"

The rest is all a bit woolly, but suppose it is premlinimary stuff. No real mention of the bus station either, though assume the plan is to refurb. Can't wait to see the costs of bringing that into the 21st century - I think it'll be more than some people think!

Let's sit back and wait - the next step will of course be the nay-sayers!

Looks interesting, a step in the right direction on Fishergate with the "shared surface" principle. Don't think you can fully exclude buses, but should really make better efforts to exclude all other vehicles.Where's the tram line?

:lol:

Looks promising, for this area to be a success means both making maximum use of the outdoor market area to give it some much needed enrichment and to ensure any new buildings facing onto it have active frontages to allow people to enjoy their time there.

You could do some cool things with the market, say turn it into an ice rink in the Christmas season with Christmas markets around it (linking to the space infront of the Harris). If Preston is to move forward in competing with the rival towns and cities, it needs to make use of what it has rather than be concentrating on what it could have.

Looks promising, for this area to be a success means both making maximum use of the outdoor market area to give it some much needed enrichment and to ensure any new buildings facing onto it have active frontages to allow people to enjoy their time there.

You could do some cool things with the market, say turn it into an ice rink in the Christmas season with Christmas markets around it (linking to the space infront of the Harris). If Preston is to move forward in competing with the rival towns and cities, it needs to make use of what it has rather than be concentrating on what it could have.

Watch the space in terms of Christmas this year. Something interesting planned I hear

The following link contains a portal with overviews of Preston's post-Tithebarn development strategy:
http://www.preston.gov.uk/businesses/economic-regeneration/investment-prospectus/

One of the links also contains the first render of the Markets Quarter proposal:
http://www.placenorthwest.co.uk/assets/_files/cached/img/402x268.95885509839/apr_12/pnw__1335778004_Preston_markets_quarter.jpg

But what it doesn't show is the larger market boxed in with glass which seems to be the council supported plan given that the market traders are having to pursue after being made homeless by the proposed demolition of the indoor market.

If the large covered market is boxed in then won't we just end up with 2 wind tunnels either side - one of which is going to be occupied by the entrance to the restaurants and cinema?

I've no downer on the cinema idea, assuming a provider is interested and leading this rather than the council just building it and hoping, just a little concerned about its implementation.

Its very early days in the planning process, so I'm sure the details will be revealed over time. One assurance is that we know that there is strong interest in a cinema in the city centre commercially, as Cineworld had been signed up to the Tithebarn scheme.

http://www.lep.co.uk/news/business/deal-to-unlock-the-future-1-5070304

Interesting to see how this will affect Preston's relationship with LCC. Could this finally be the start of a Central Lancs authority and the end to LCC in this area?
I'm assuming that these powers don't encompass the whole of the current LCC boundary.
Please let us be free of the dead grip of LCC

Its very early days in the planning process, so I'm sure the details will be revealed over time. One assurance is that we know that there is strong interest in a cinema in the city centre commercially, as Cineworld had been signed up to the Tithebarn scheme.

Again, I have no downer on the cinema idea but pre-Tithebarn collapse interest doesn't necessarily imply post-Tithebarn collapse interest.

Cineworld may well have been interested in what Tithebarn could have been but if they weren't interested in Preston before the Tithebarn plan then they may not be interested in Preston without it - after all John Lewis isn't rushing to the city centre and nor are Yo Sushi, Apple or anything else that Tithebarn may have brought.

New office complex proposed for Glovers Court, just off Winckley Square:

http://www.lep.co.uk/news/business/printworks-offices-to-breathe-life-into-centre-1-4586637

Demolition is going on by the old print works, so maybe this scheme is going ahead.

Indeed! I was at the Wellington the other night and noticed that some demolition was going on...allbeit slightly drunk at the time!

Any news when the Horrock's Quarter development will be starting, now that planning permission has been confirmed. Also are there any pictures of Sandown court finished? I'm in Southampton at uni so won't be able to see them until Christmas.

Demolition is going on by the old print works, so maybe this scheme is going ahead.

I believe Ben Casey is plowing ahead with his scheme. Should look good when complete and I'm pleased the old Print Works building is going to be retained. We have lost far too much of our Victorian workshop heritage

I believe Ben Casey is plowing ahead with his scheme.

Just wondering why you say Ben Casey? He's not mentioned in the article. Ben's current Preston office is in a scheme I developed (as housing, but the buyer turned it to office use) and I'm friendly with him. I wonder if they are thinking of moving The Chase's Preston office?

Preston City Council have launched a public consultation on developments to the city. Have a look, it's important as many citizens do this as possible. Below is a link to the BBC article and a link to the public consultation questionnaire itself.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-20476259
http://www.preston.gov.uk/yourservices/planning/planning-policies/local-development-framework/citycentreplan

Just completed it, I had a lot more to say than I thought I would. TBH, I think the questionnaire is far too long. It's going to be tricky to get most ordinary Prestonians to complete that. I'd imagine that many of them won't be familiar with things such as the CBD either.

Just completed it, I had a lot more to say than I thought I would. TBH, I think the questionnaire is far too long. It's going to be tricky to get most ordinary Prestonians to complete that. I'd imagine that many of them won't be familiar with things such as the CBD either.

The usual suspects will probably just use it as an excuse to moan that "ordinary Prestonians" have been excluded... :lol:

I see the usual suspect is already getting the boot in on "dissenters" before anyone's had a chance to say anything! :lol:

This seems like a great idea but didn't Preston City Council do this almost 12 months ago with their Your City Your Say event? We've not heard a peep out of them about that - they collected opinions by holding a few events round the city and have been hoarding the feedback ever since.

Of course there was one thing to come out of Your City Your Say - http://www.lep.co.uk/news/local/keep-our-bus-station-where-it-is-1-4131641

I thought that some of the questions were a bit leading and as Accura4Matalan said it does seem a bit long. I think a more concise questionnaire could have proved more fruitful.

Now we just have to look forward to Spring and hope that PCC are open and honest about what they collect and don't push their own personal opinions onto the consultation :)

It is very long, it would be good to do a shorter one. Potentially with the option to do the long one if you wish.

It'll be nice in the spring to see a direction where they are going with development, hopefully in stages like Blackpool. Nice to see they have question about keeping the bus station. I shall eagerly await the result.

Also, everyone seen trampower put a full planning application in for the guild line.

Also, everyone seen trampower put a full planning application in for the guild line.

No - is this on the PCC web site?

Well I gave the Questionnaire my best shot over quite some time, but most of the advice I gave has been given many times before by people far more influential than me and ignored, so I won't be holding my breath.

I had a problem with Q60 - Suggest additional uses for the Horrockses Quarter; I put "Cotton Mills!" :banana:

On another note, I may have made reference in past posts about the architectural sketch book I've been working on for the past 5 years with my dad. We finally published it in August and now we've just put up a web site for marketing purposes which you'll find here:
www.archims.co.uk
It contains sample sketches and extracts from all 15 Chapters made across the four corners of the earth. There's a few corrections and additions to make to the site and a few interactive links to add, but it's more or less there. Please have a browse round the site and see what you make of the drawings and text, and any comments you may have about it are received with interest either via this thread or the email address given on the Contacts page.
Now, where on the vast SC site do I put a post like this one that's likely to be noticed by all international readers that might be interested? This could take some time!

No - is this on the PCC web site?



Yeah it is. In the major development section or whatever it is, in planning!

Yeah it is. In the major development section or whatever it is, in planning!
I take it you mean this:
http://publicaccess.preston.gov.uk/portal/servlets/ApplicationSearchServlet?PKID=113724

website link:
http://www.prestontrampower.co.uk/
NOTE: the above website was last updated at least 2 years ago, so looks a bit silly.

They update the news section every couple of months, which is then usually followed by a story in the LEP. Its very rarely anything major though, and certainly nothing to suggest that this will get off the ground anytime soon.

Good.

Just had a good look through that application and looks a little bit light in detail, presuming its only for outline permission at most. Also have I missed something regarding "Phase 1"? As they keep referring to that as Guild Line 2 or whatever.

However like others have said, there is no way its going to get off the ground any time soon, if ever.

EDIT: Just read that website, I didn't know they had already submitted an application to convert the rail line!

On paper, it could get off the ground fairly quickly. The Longridge line is alignment is still designated as a railway, meaning that getting planning permission should be a lot easier, subject to the agreement of Network Rail of course. All the reservations for infrastructure are in place, the idea has long standing popular support (even Riversider supported this proposal!), the route isn't mirrored by any existing bus routes, and hell... there is even a ready made Park and Ride site at J31A. The re-opening of this route as light rail has always been a no brainer, hence why development along the route has always been blocked. My doubts are purely about TrampowerUK, especially their approach to getting this funded. I am very skeptical about selling shares to fund this. I can't see many investors queuing up to place their money in something that won't see a return for a very very long time, if ever.

I take it you mean this:
http://publicaccess.preston.gov.uk/portal/servlets/ApplicationSearchServlet?PKID=113724

website link:
http://www.prestontrampower.co.uk/
NOTE: the above website was last updated at least 2 years ago, so looks a bit silly.

The documents associated in that planning app looks like they have been compiled as part of a GCSE school project. Not a very good one.

Your book looks really good Tark, but I have to admit - just a touch out of my price range!

Speaking of things being out of peoples price range... Preston's most expensive apartment!
http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-to-rent/property-36561664.html

Shall we try and set out what we hope comes out of this consultation. I.e. what would we like to see happen in Preston now that tithebarn has collapsed?

Shall we try and set out what we hope comes out of this consultation. I.e. what would we like to see happen in Preston now that tithebarn has collapsed?

Keep the bus station
Keep the markets
Stop the cinema
Stop the trams
Stop the Rankin Offices

It's that simple.

Keep the bus station
Keep the markets
Stop the cinema
Stop the trams
Stop the Rankin Offices

Don't know what the Rankin Offices are, but generally speaking, the exact opposite of the above.