No doubt "someone" will be along to dismiss this soon enough!

Tithebarn shop to open

A consultation shop to provide detailed information on Preston's £750m Tithebarn rebirth will open in April.
Members of the public will be able to quiz officials from Preston Council and the Preston Tithebarn Partnership, made up of joint developers Grosvenor and Lend Lease, in the city centre shop unit.

The location for the centre is still being debated, but Preston Council's chief executive Jim Carr said it will feature a detailed model of the Tithebarn area and is expected to be open throughout the week.

Members of the public will be encouraged to air their concerns, add their views and get answers on the project – many details of which are still not set in stone 10 years after the regeneration was first mooted.

The shop will come just months before a formal planning application for the controversial project is submitted – expected to be in the summer.

Mr Carr told the Evening Post: "We are preparing the planning application and as part of that the Tithebarn Partnership want to do some public consultation.

"We are shaping up to provide a consultation facility, a place where there will be people to talk to and a model of the project.

"We are still engaging with people directly affected on a one-to-one basis – people such as market traders."

great find preston guy!
glad to see guild tower being replaced with something of a decent mass. looking good.
bit inbetween john lewis and guild hall reminds me of what there doing in liverpool with south john street, which itself looks rather good.
bus station looks nice and a decent size which should ease fears that it was going to be downgraded massively.
just a thought. seen as moving the library to deans chambers fell through (wasnt it due to not being able to get 6 mill or something) what would the chances of grosvenor taking the building and making us a decent library. them truely giving something back to preston.
also yay for tesco. are there still plans for one on great shaw street?

Going to be negative here! :nuts:

Would prefer a Tesco Metro or Sainsbury's Central or similar in the actual city centre as opposed to a TE down Church Street.

Excellent spot of the designs Preston_guy! Looks very interesting.

Well, Tesco Metro are opening a store beneath that new apartment block on Friargate (which has begun construction btw :) )

Good news about the consultation shop. There are plenty of places along Church Street or Lancaster Road available. Fingers crossed eh? :)

what would the chances of grosvenor taking the building and making us a decent library
This was mentioned just after the funding for the library was refused. Grosvenor said they will not pay for a new library but as the cost of Tithebarn has inflated from 240 million to 750 million over the past few years I'm sure they will be able to give us something... but only if funding is sought from elsewhere probably!
Good news about the consultation shop. I think somewhere on Lancaster Rd near to the markets would be an ideal location [i.e. between St. John's Centre and Guild Hall] as it could stay there throughout the construction period and people would be able to stop and see the plans and construction at the same time.

Wow what a good find the Tithebarn plans are. A few points:
I was wondering why the ex-social security office and the rest of the rubbish at the end of Pole Street/Derby Street aren't included within the plans. The land is hardly well used currently.
Also the ex-Police Station on Lancaster Road which is annexed to the Town Hall and appears to all intents and purposes to be derelict currently or least very underused, but is an attractive Victorian structure ripe for redevelopment isn't included within the boundary, which seems strange.
The frontage on Church Street of the proposed new bus station contains all fair bit of tat, but also a few listed 18th/early 19c structures such as the Old Dog Inn which probably should be retained. I like the mass of some of the proposed structures and plans seem to be moving ahead at some pace at last.

Very pleased to see some consultation at long last, long after all the real decisions have been taken...

"IT IS NOT A SHOPPING CENTRE"
what on earth is it then? Stop talking rubbish, it's a shopping centre. City centres are good places to build shopping centres, so stop feeling so defensive and embarassed - unless you have something to be defensive and embarassed about - call a spade a spade. The advocates of the L1 development in Liverpool have no problem with calling this development a 'shopping centre' - so why the coyness in Preston? Do people fear contradicting their own hype?

"tithebarn will be on restored streets which the bus station itself destroyed. each will be open air on streets. shops and people on streets."

The gaps between the shops will be organised as streets, helping people move between the shops. I would have expected nothing less, thanks for explaining that to me. Trumpeting these as 'public spaces' and as a 'gift to the people of Preston' is just hype however. They are STREETS that help people get to the SHOPPING CENTRE.

"these shops (on streets) will provide jobs which will benefit the people of preston more than chucking money at some shite estate, and i am not being biased as i live on one of one of these so called crap areas and i would much rather have money spent on the city centre which i can go to than yet more money chucked at the area and nothing happen. which is not to do with the council its the people that inhabit them."

I think a lot of people on the council share your views about the people of Preston. They have given up on the people, and are looking to this development to solve all of Preston's problems. By turning their backs on Preston people, by keeping them in the dark and ignoring them, by sidelining our estates and focussing on 'gateways', by disrespecting Preston people and treating them with contempt, they will make all of Preston's real life problems worse, whatever sparkling jewels they build for us in the City Centre.

I can tell you this - without Preston people, there can be no solution to Preston's problems, high handed technocratic ivory tower approaches will inevitably fail, we should have learned this from the 60s.

(And by the way, the Bus Station in the picture is a pale shadow of the existing bus station, with a fraction of it's public transport capacity - so much for the council's commitment to promoting public transport)

Well if you think you're a representation of the people of Preston and their views, Riverwhiner then you're a very deluded little person! You are OBSESSED with your view of Tithebarn as a shopping centre (and always putting that word in caps which just p*sses me off even more). In spite of what you say, a mixed use development does not amount to a shopping centre. For the last time, there is a department store, another store, around 80 new shops, cinema, refurbished markets and Guild Hall (so maybe people will actually want to use it), offices, new homes, bars and restaurants and you guessed it, public spaces! There are 2 leading artists [Alfredo Jaar and Charles Quick] working with Grosvenor, Lend Lease and the City Council to make sure that art (i.e. public art and spaces) are included in the Tithebarn area http://www.incertainplaces.org/index.php In all, it will be like having the whole of the current city centre plus extras in one area and with the bus station right on it's doorstep.
And I would estimate there to be at least 30 bays at the new bus station and if we're looking to take vehicles off our roads I think 80 bays would be a bit excessive. If the services that run from the bus station are well planned then there is no need for loads of bays.

INSIDE: Pole St and Derby St are indeed in need of some TLC. That area (as well as some others) are designated as having potential for future development on the plans published in the approved SPG so I think they will be tackled either whilst Tithebarn is under construction or shortly after by another developer. Maybe the Patels! As for the old police station, it could be turned into a nice little bar or restaurant I think! I think it's currently used as a Women's Refuge Centre?

A former Preston city centre cinema could be re-opened in time for the next Guild.

James Crompton, 23, of Leyland, is hoping to breath new life into the former Odeon Cinema in Church Street, which opened in 1928 and showed its last film in 1992.

James, a conservation volunteer, has plenty of experience in heritage projects having been involved in the revitalisation of the Winter Gardens in Morecambe and the Plaza in Stockport.

He said: "It is the last remaining city centre cinema in Preston and it would be great if we could get it back open.

"It would be great if we could get it in some kind of shape for the Heritage Open Days in September.

"Then we can look at forming a group as a charity to raise money to get it back up and running. It would be a great addition to the city for the Guild in 2012."

When it opened, the cinema had two auditoriums seating more than 2,000 people.

It became a Gaumont Cinema in 1954 before the Rank Organisation took over in 1962, leasing out the cinema part of the building to Odeon a year later.

Nightclub operators Luminar Leisure own the building and run the Lava Ignite nightclub in the former dancehall underneath.

James said: "Luminar should be congratulated for helping to protect the cinema because, had it not been for them, the building may not be as it is today.

""Not only does Preston not have a city centre cinema any more, it doesn't have anywhere that shows foreign and art house films so that would be the goal.

"There is a lot of space there which could be used as a bar and restaurant and for exhibitions so I think it would be a real benefit to Preston and its cultural status."

what on earth is it then? Stop talking rubbish, it's a shopping centre.
The only person who has consistently talked rubbish on this thread is yourself Riverwhiner (thanks Preston_guy, great name for him!). How many times do we have to ram the significant non-retail elements down your pig-headed, ignorant, over-paranoid, the-world-is-against-you, business hating throat before you'll accept this plainly and painfully obvious fact????

I think a lot of people on the council share your views about the people of Preston. They have given up on the people, and are looking to this development to solve all of Preston's problems. By turning their backs on Preston people, by keeping them in the dark and ignoring them, by sidelining our estates and focussing on 'gateways', by disrespecting Preston people and treating them with contempt, they will make all of Preston's real life problems worse, whatever sparkling jewels they build for us in the City Centre.

Again, the work the council does for the people of Preston has been highlighted to you on many occasions and you still persist. I suspect more of Preston's "problems" are not up to the council, but up to a element of low-life scum that will exist in ANY city between here and Hampshire! Your attitude is typical of the "it's not my fault, it's someone else's job to fix" belief that results in many of the problems in the first place.

And by the way, the Bus Station in the picture is a pale shadow of the existing bus station, with a fraction of it's public transport capacity

And how does the capacity of the new bus station compare to the capacity of the current station that is actually used?

Quote:
I think a lot of people on the council share your views about the people of Preston. They have given up on the people, and are looking to this development to solve all of Preston's problems. By turning their backs on Preston people, by keeping them in the dark and ignoring them, by sidelining our estates and focussing on 'gateways', by disrespecting Preston people and treating them with contempt, they will make all of Preston's real life problems worse, whatever sparkling jewels they build for us in the City Centre.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn't the whole stock of Preston's council housing in the middle of a two year refurbishment project by Community Gateway at the moment? - New Kitchens, Bathrooms, External Upgrades etc.?
Hasn't 10's of Millions been spent on improving Aven-Central Housing and various community projects?
Haven’t external improvements to housing been carried out for the whole of the Frenchwood area in the past three years?
This is just a sample of work carried out in under privileged communities over the past few years - it doesn’t sound the Local Authority turning its back on Preston's people to me.

*Sighs*

Lets look at real evidence, rather than a few squiggles on a map:

In today's LEP is a prime example of the consequences of the council's obsession with Tithebarn, at the expense of small businesses and local people.

http://www.lep.co.uk/news/Homeless-charity-slams-Tithebarn.3735361.jp

In this case, a development which would have had enormous benefits for homeless people and the Emmaus Community is recommended to be blocked as it might conflict with Tithebarn.

George Erdozain, chairman of Emmaus, said: "We have been dismayed to see that Preston City Council is recommending that the planning application for the development be turned down on the grounds that it might prejudice the proposed Tithebarn Regeneration Scheme.

"That scheme, as we all know, has been in gestation for 10 years or more. It seems to be no nearer birth than it was at the beginning. In the meantime the area is blighted on the promise of 'jam tomorrow'.

"Homeless people's needs are urgent and real, they must be addressed now."


This is exactly what I mean about the council turning it's back upon the people.

Of course these proposals would merely have benefitted what you call "a element of low-life scum that will exist in ANY city between here and Hampshire", people with no power, no voice, people who don't have pockets full of cash or great influence on our ivory tower, technocratic council, so let's not stop it from spoiling the party...

In this case, a development which would have had enormous benefits for homeless people and the Emmaus Community is recommended to be blocked as it might conflict with Tithebarn.
They should have thought more carefully about where they submitted the application for. Tithebarn is common knowledge, so if they happened to simply 'miss it' when they submitted the application then they have not put very much thought into where this is.

This is exactly what I mean about the council turning it's back upon the people.

Of course these proposals would merely have benefitted what you call "a element of low-life scum that will exist in ANY city between here and Hampshire", people with no power, no voice, people who don't have pockets full of cash or great influence on our ivory tower, technocratic council, so let's not stop it from spoiling the party...
The council don't care about the homeless? How do you explain them approving the Fox Street shelter DESPITE it being in an area identified for redevelopment?


Ah yes, and once again, thanks for ignoring every comment put to you. If you're going to come on here whinging, at least have the decency to acknowledge people who have the patience to answer your comments, rather than just change the subject when you lose your point.

The 80 stands in the current bus station have never had more than 60 in use. And that was 30 years ago when passenger numbers are twice what they are today. PCC wanted 26-30 stands in a transport interchange by the railway, with the intention of moving people, but LCC has insisted on 36 minimum, because they like the idea of buses parked up doing nothing for hours on prime city centre land.

This is exactly what I mean about the council turning it's back upon the people
You don't fool me. You're no more Mother Teresa than you are Victor Meldrew. I'm sorry but an £800 million pound project takes priority over a £10 million one. I'm utilitarian all the way! There are plenty of sites in and around the city centre for their homeless project, why act like little pr*cks and go about messing up Tithebarn at this stage in the game?

Here is a fine example of Riversider's idea of a shopping centre:
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1375/1440935314_84049b512c.jpg?v=0

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1060/873080325_e2ae6d1add.jpg?v=0

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/101/260117061_1f38ed3116.jpg?v=0

Central Paris was masterplanned by its leaders to make it more functional, much like Preston is being masterplanned, albeit on a much smaller scale. As hard to believe as it is, the majority of central Paris is one big masterplan, and most of the older buildings are designed by the same group of people. But of course... its all just a shopping centre!

:bash:
What we're trying to create is a town/city centre. It's vital that it makes big profits for the retailers, so that massive rates and rents can be charged on the tenants so that the income generated can be spent by the Local Authorities on providing good housing, schools, transport infrastructure, policing, health and leisure amenities for the populace. Retail drives our economy. Manufacturers, importers, exporters, service providers and so on only survive if they have a place where people meet and share their wares. It's why people don't choose to live near Cape Wrath or the Simpson Desert in Australia. Preston is blessed by a geography which puts us at key point on trade routes in the UK, which is blessed with beneficial resources both natural and man made, and our home town has been a relative success despite decades of missed opportunities and mismanagement. I don't give a fig that nothing concrete has appeared in 10 years because getting it right is more important than getting it quick for the centuries ahead, and getting the retail element right is what will pay for this. Getting rid of 7 acres of our city centre used on a bus station that only needs 1 acre (if LCC would let us put it in the right location) presents us with a unique opportunity to provide for our decendants. The small minded people (such as those in South Ribble that blocked the opportunity to rid ourselves of the shackles of the LCC by opposing a Unitary Authority because they felt their council tax might go up by a pound or two a month) that seek to undermine the Tithebarn rather than make a positive contribution to let it be all it can be are undermining the futures of their grandchildren and beyond. In the big picture, the allegory or metaphore is penny wise, pound foolish.

How interesting that you should choose Paris as your 'model' of how Preston could be.
http://www.marxists.org/history/france/paris-commune/barricade.jpg
'The Paris Commune'
http://libcom.org/files/imagecache/article/files/paris68aCars.jpg
'Paris 1968'
http://www.9cairns.com/bimages/paris_riots.jpg
Parisian Suburbs 2007

Paris is actually a stark warning of the consequences of ignoring the people of a city - time and again Parisians have risen up - sometimes in concerted uprisings, sometimes in aimless angry violence, right up to the present day.

Paris proves that fine architecture and arrogant technocracy cannot solve social problems, that if you ignore and sideline the population then glittering city centres can become the arena for popular revolt.

This all highlights the dire need to involve and listen to the people, rather than merely policing and containing them, or palming them off with promises about how a new city centre will make their lives better, rather than focussing on the real issues.

How interesting that you should choose Paris as your 'model' of how Preston could be.
http://www.marxists.org/history/france/paris-commune/barricade.jpg
'The Paris Commune'
http://libcom.org/files/imagecache/article/files/paris68aCars.jpg
'Paris 1968'
http://www.9cairns.com/bimages/paris_riots.jpg
Parisian Suburbs 2007

Paris is actually a stark warning of the consequences of ignoring the people of a city - time and again Parisians have risen up - sometimes in concerted uprisings, sometimes in aimless angry violence, right up to the present day.

Paris proves that architecture and technocracy cannot solve social problems, that if you ignore and sideline the population then glittering city centres can become the arena for popular revolt and it highlights the dire need to involve and listen to the people, rather than merely policing and containing them.

Nobody is saying that architecture and technocracy can solve problems, at least not social ones anyway. It can help, but it can't solve. The violence in France that has happened, and to some extent is still happening is down to pure political repression due to the fact that France has continued a tradition of conservative politics, something the UK has not done. To suggest that uprising only happens behind a false architectural front is ridiculous. There is as many examples of uprising in places where there isn't the 'glittering' front. Take Palestine for example, the people rose up and took power once Israel had pulled out of Gaza, now they are in even more of a mess than they were before. What about Burnley? The place is supposedly down to earth and community based, not to mention that it isnt exactly an architectural beauty spot, yet its people love to go on the riot every now and again... and if that wasn't enough, they voted bloody BNP! And lets face it, Pendle Borough Council are not exactly an ivory towers establishment.

What you're suggesting is that every voice be heard and listened to from every single section of the community. Democracy isn't good enough for you Riversider. The fact that the majority of people in Preston are quite happy with Tithebarn and the loss of the bus station has either totally bypassed you or you are suggesting we adopt proportional representation. I'm sure I don't need to tell you how ugly things can get in that department...

have you ever noticed that all riversider does is negatively answer everything. i dont think he has made one positive comment about preston yet.

ooo people riot in paris, that must mean its shit and everyone who lives there hates it and all the money is focused in one area and its council ignores its people blah blah blah blah

Of course these proposals would merely have benefitted what you call "a element of low-life scum that will exist in ANY city between here and Hampshire", people with no power, no voice, people who don't have pockets full of cash or great influence on our ivory tower, technocratic council, so let's not stop it from spoiling the party...

And this is a fine example of you twisting people's comments to fit your own agenda. At no point did I say anything whatsoever that the "low life scum" I made reference to were homeless people. To infer that I did is truly disgusting and despicable. If this reflects the sort of person you really are, then shame on you.

Captain Jason - it was Accura who brought up the subject of Paris, I merely pointed out that the great architecture there did not solve the real problems facing Parisians, any more than the finest city centre in the world would solve Preston's problems, without the involvement of Preston people.

Accura was trying to show the benefits of central planning on city development - most cities develop organically, there are a few cities that have been built according to some architect's grand plan - whenever local people have not been involved from the start, these social experiments have not been notable for their success. In Preston commercial considerations will always outweigh the needs of local people.

Burnley, and much of East Lancashire are prime examples of areas that have been neglected by central and local government - Burnley Council had the unique distinction of jailing more people for the non-payment of poll tax than any other in the UK, which reflects their robust attitude to their poorest constituents.

Nowhere do I say that having a glittering city centre facade exacerbates social problems - though it can be used to mask them, and the hype surrounding proposals like this can distract local politicians and council officials from their real job, which is trying to enable local people to make their lives better.

I think democracy in Preston would actually be a very good idea. Democracy means that local people are actively involved in decisions that affect their lives. No sign of this here, where everything is done secretively and in a high handed technocratic manner.

JonH, I was not trying to infer that you regard homeless people as 'lowlife scum', you made it clear you were referring to people who live on Preston's estates, who by definition are not homeless.

Homeless people however are widely regarded in society as 'lowlife scum', and the councils' response to proposals that might have benefitted them suggests that this view is shared in the corridoors of power.

You miss the point Riversider. As Tark has already said, the people of Preston (and surrounding areas) threw away their chance of democracy when they decided against a unitary authority. Preston will now, the the foreseeable future at least, be shackled to the monsters at Lancashire County Council [who will make all their decisions for them] so I suggest you stop barking your crap on here and go bug them. This is a forum for the development of Preston, not social issues!

This is a forum for the development of Preston, not social issues!

If development is not about making Preston people's lives better - then what exactly is it for?

Surely not just the profits of a few greedy developers...

JonH, I was not trying to infer that you regard homeless people as 'lowlife scum', you made it clear you were referring to people who live on Preston's estates, who by definition are not homeless.


I made it clear that I was refering to "an element" of the people who live on Preston's estates, not a sweeping dismissal as you clearly "infer" above.

If development is not about making Preston people's lives better - then what exactly is it for?

Surely not just the profits of a few greedy developers...

Some developments are for making people money. Tithebarn however is not.

Accura was trying to show the benefits of central planning on city development - most cities develop organically, there are a few cities that have been built according to some architect's grand plan - whenever local people have not been involved from the start, these social experiments have not been notable for their success. In Preston commercial considerations will always outweigh the needs of local people.
First off, Preston's commercial considerations ARE the needs of the local people. What the hell do you think demand and supply is for? A retailer doesn't set up shop somewhere just for the hell of it. Same goes for everything else.
When you talk about the social experiments, I assume you are talking about our wonderful New Towns of the 60's and the 70's? One issue... quality. They were built to a low standard, therefore are now of low value (and have been for the past 2 decades) and you get many people who don't care much for their community moving in. We only have realised it in more recent times, but new towns were a blight of urban planning, as are other car based planning systems such as the area around our bus station. Tithebarn conforms to the urban fabric of Preston, rejoining and rebuilding streets which were once the heart of our city.

Burnley, and much of East Lancashire are prime examples of areas that have been neglected by central and local government - Burnley Council had the unique distinction of jailing more people for the non-payment of poll tax than any other in the UK, which reflects their robust attitude to their poorest constituents.
Yep, Burnley is shit and don't we just know it. But where is their Tithebarn?
Your point doesn't really make sense without it.

Nowhere do I say that having a glittering city centre facade exacerbates social problems - though it can be used to mask them, and the hype surrounding proposals like this can distract local politicians and council officials from their real job, which is trying to enable local people to make their lives better.
To be honest, I doubt very much that councillors other than the handful that are directly involved get involved with Tithebarn rather than dealing with their wards and departments. Its no use pretending that Tithebarn is a small deal for Preston though, the fact that its in the LEP is evidence of that. Its also no use turning a blind eye to the fact that it will improve peoples lives. Both in terms of lifestyle and work.

I think democracy in Preston would actually be a very good idea. Democracy means that local people are actively involved in decisions that affect their lives. No sign of this here, where everything is done secretively and in a high handed technocratic manner.
Thats what we have things like the Community Area Forum for, and consultation on development. People in Preston can't be involved in every last little thing though. Thats why we vote people who are trained to do it for us. That is democracy. Like I said, you want proportional representation, which is stupid.

JonH, I was not trying to infer that you regard homeless people as 'lowlife scum', you made it clear you were referring to people who live on Preston's estates, who by definition are not homeless.
He was referring to the criminal element. In many cases, rightly so. I live on an estate and I hate them.

Homeless people however are widely regarded in society as 'lowlife scum', and the councils' response to proposals that might have benefitted them suggests that this view is shared in the corridoors of power.
Fox Street shelter anyone?
Not to mention this:
http://www.preston.gov.uk/News.asp?id=SX9452-A77FE246&cat=600

What your link shows Accura is that the last time the council did anything positive for homeless people was back in 2003 - Elaine Abbott, who was directly involved in making this happen is no longer on the council, and is deeply unpopular with her former colleagues as she likes to tell the truth once in a while - including, for example, recent comments about the council's supine relationship with the developers.

What your link shows Accura is that the last time the council did anything positive for homeless people was back in 2003 - Elaine Abbott, who was directly involved in making this happen is no longer on the council, and is deeply unpopular with her former colleagues as she likes to tell the truth once in a while - including, for example, recent comments about the council's supine relationship with the developers.
It was just one out of pages of links I could of picked ;)

Rubbish - there are three new schemes under construction at the moment - One at the former care home Ribbleton Lane, one on Kent Street and Fox Street is being completely refurbished. The shelter on Oxford Street in Avenham has also been rebuilt in the last couple of years

People need to think about some of the nonsense they are spouting in defence of this development - and ask themselves why they believe this stuff.

I've learned in the last few posts that development is nothing to do with social issues, but also that Tithebarn is a special kind of development that is not about people making money. Alice In Wonderland was told to believe two impossible things before breakfast - in Preston we're obviously asked to believe the impossible at dinner and tea as well!

All I am asking is that people tell the truth about this development -

1. It is about building a new shopping centre (why this is such a contraversial thing to say, I have no idea)
2. It will involve downgrading our bus station and moving it to a less convenient location
3. Local people have had very little say in anything to do with it - instead it has all been planned and decided behind closed doors.
4. It has meant years of 'planning blight' to the area affected (and even neighbouring areas) and prevented some other interesting and exciting developments from happening
5. Despite years of intense work by council officials, we still have nothing to show for it and it looks highly likely to be further delayed, if it ever happens at all.
6. If it does happen, it won't do much, if anything, to address the real problems facing Preston people, though no doubt somebody somewhere will be making money out of it, whatever Accura says.

A bit of honesty would be refreshing - then we can look at the merits of the scheme in a fair and balanced way, instead of an atmosphere of overblown hype, where anyone who dares to point out that the emperor has no clothes is villified and ridiculed.

1. It is about building a new shopping centre (why this is such a contraversial thing to say, I have no idea)


OK. It is not about building a new shopping centre. It is about building a new area of the city centre incoporating retail (shops, market), leisure (cinema, bars, restaurants) business (offices, workshops - not sure if they are still planned) tourism (hotel(s)) and residential (apartments).

I don't know how many times this has been articulated over and again by several posters without any acknowledgement whatsover from you in return.

2. It will involve downgrading our bus station and moving it to a less convenient location

The location is the only Tithebarn topic we agree on. The downgrading comment is rubbish. It'll be smaller than the current half used station but with better overall facilities.

It just should be somewhere else!

3. Local people have had very little say in anything to do with it - instead it has all been planned and decided behind closed doors.

All documentation has been freely available and consultations have been or are about to be conducted.

4. It has meant years of 'planning blight' to the area affected (and even neighbouring areas) and prevented some other interesting and exciting developments from happening

Perhaps true, but large parts of the affected area is not the nicest place anyway.

What exciting developments have been prevented that were not Patel family publicity grabbers?

5. Despite years of intense work by council officials, we still have nothing to show for it and it looks highly likely to be further delayed, if it ever happens at all.

The curse of local, regional and national government. The Trafford Centre opened when I was halfway through university. I was at primary school when the first plans were formulated.

6. If it does happen, it won't do much, if anything, to address the real problems facing Preston people, though no doubt somebody somewhere will be making money out of it, whatever Accura says.

What are all these problems facing Preston people and what are the responsibility of the council? The council are not responsible for how people choose to live or conduct themselves.

As for the money making comment, I must assume you are unemployed or are self-employed running a non-profit making venture given how abhorrent you find the concept of businesses making money.

A bit of honesty would be refreshing - then we can look at the merits of the scheme in a fair and balanced way, instead of an atmosphere of overblown hype, where anyone who dares to point out that the emperor has no clothes is villified and ridiculed.

What more honesty do you need? The outline plans are clear. You are only "villified and ridiculed" because you persist in labelling Tithebarn as only a retail project and you generally ignore any argument that either says otherwise or blatently proves you wrong.

1. It is about building a new shopping centre (why this is such a contraversial thing to say, I have no idea)
Because its utter bollocks. Either you can't read or you haven't actually looked at the plans, which kinda rules out every sweeping statement you have made against Tithebarn.

2. It will involve downgrading our bus station and moving it to a less convenient location
Our current bus station is too big.
Our new bus station will be more conveniently located for the new development and the existing shopping area.

3. Local people have had very little say in anything to do with it - instead it has all been planned and decided behind closed doors.
Oh really? Remember the whole crap about the bus station which set this project back at least 3 years? What can local people input at the masterplanning stage? Are local people planning experts?

4. It has meant years of 'planning blight' to the area affected (and even neighbouring areas) and prevented some other interesting and exciting developments from happening
A retail park? Thats exactly where the area was heading because the overall blight in this area had already started. Thats why we even have Tithebarn.

5. Despite years of intense work by council officials, we still have nothing to show for it and it looks highly likely to be further delayed, if it ever happens at all.
We have an anchor retailer signed up, 2 reputable developers on board ready to go, agreements signed... these things take time.

6. If it does happen, it won't do much, if anything, to address the real problems facing Preston people, though no doubt somebody somewhere will be making money out of it, whatever Accura says.
Are you unemployed or something? You seem to have a real problem with people making money. Even if it doesn't address Preston's anti-social behaviour problems and the like (which it will for this part of the city), it will do exactly what it says on the tin, revitalise a run down part of the city centre. There is money for Preston's regeneration, and money for Preston's other problems. Thats the council's job, same goes for the rest of the UK and other Western Democracies. Maybe you would prefer to live somewhere like the middle east hmm? If you think developers have power here, go to Saudi, UAE, Russia, or China...

A bit of honesty would be refreshing - then we can look at the merits of the scheme in a fair and balanced way, instead of an atmosphere of overblown hype, where anyone who dares to point out that the emperor has no clothes is villified and ridiculed.
Your metaphors are magical, but your point is utter bollocks. Your reminding me of a 9/11 conspiracy theorist, clutching to the tiniest straws. There have been no lies, no conspiracies, no backhanders, we have been told everything we need to know.

why is it that you cant seem to accept that tithebarn is a good thing for preston. it will provide jobs during construction, retail jobs when completed. more office space providing jobs, leisure facilities providing jobs and the residential element providing housing in the city centre. secondly in return for this we get rid of a bus station which is TO BIG, st johns, that single story crap next to it and half of preston office centre, hardly architectural gems are they.

1)Why is it that u cannot accept that tithebarn is not a shopping centre, and neither is L1, people in liverpool dont class it as a shopping centre. for shopping centre see arndale centre in manchester our our very own st geogres. for what tithebarn is, a masterplan to retie parts of the city centre together see Liverpool 1.

2)the bus station is over capacity anyway so building one the same size would be a waste of land. if you want it moved go wine at lcc who have done bugger all to help the development of preston

3)people are not master planners, when i was younger i remember this first starting and it all being about the removal of the bus station with no concept of what was going in its place (at the time it was described as a shopping centre) there is no point in consulting people till you have eveyone on board and know what you are doing. it would be a waste of time/

4)name one building that preston could have been proud of that has been rejected due to tithebarn?

5) as accura says there has been progress.

6) what your describing sound to me like a communist state. businesses exist to make money, that is what spurs them to grow and expand. take away the money element and you have nothing. to suggest anything would move anywhere in the world without the prospect of money is total bollocks. and preston is no difference.

so what exactly do you want to happen in preston? tithebarn? no tithebarn? give your own vision instead of constantly picking at what we have.

Riversider, on the subject of you saying that the advocates of L1 called it a shopping centre, I set up a little poll a few days ago on the Liverpool forum... the results speak for themselves:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=577582

I'm quite content to call it 'an area of the city centre where there will be many shops' instead of 'a shopping centre' if that makes you all happy - if you read the original L1 thread, you will notice it's advocates call it a shopping centre many times, without anyone throwing their dummy out of the pram.

Most of what I have said has been misinterpreted here, and a lot of words have been put into my mouth (such as the suggestion that I want proportional representation - I have never ever advocated this electoral arrangement anywhere - where did that come from?) - I'm not in principle opposed to any kind of development in the city centre, as I've said many times, the city centre is the right place for such development.

What I am opposed to, as I've said before, is the failure to properly involve Preston people in decisions that affect the long-term destiny of our city, the way that Tithebarn is dominating so much of the thinking, energy and priorities of the council, the downgrading of our bus station, which will have consequences for other parts of the city centre - such as the markets, the shift in informal power over the destiny of our city to the developers and the unelected vision board, the way that the council has 'put all it's development eggs in one basket' - a high risk strategy when we have already paid so much for Tithebarn in terms of the planning blight that is currently affecting the area concerned.

Strangely enough I have no objection to people making money out of the scheme - I just want them to be honest about this - it was Accura who said this scheme was not about making money - NONSENSE: of course it is. The implication in much of the propaganda around the scheme that this is somehow an act of great generosity by the Duke of Westminster to the people of Preston is frankly ludicrous.

One thing I will say about Grosvenor's thinking is that it differs from the current 'short termism' that characterises most of British Business - the lust for short term profits and immediate returns. Grosvenor instead are thinking in terms of decades and centuries, and have won control of some very valuable land for a very long time.

Failing to involve Preston people because they are not 'experts' and 'master planners' is a mistake. As we all should know 'Experts' and 'Master Planners' have a long track record of not listening to ordinary people, and then leaving a terrible mess behind them.

There have been no lies, no conspiracies, no backhanders
Nowhere anywhere have I ever suggested or implied that this scheme involves backhanders or conspiracies. Have you heard some rumours Accura?
go to Saudi, UAE, Russia, or China If the biggest claim for democracy in Preston is that it is better than Saudi, UAE, Russia or China, then we really are in trouble.
we have been told everything we need to know Thanks Accura, I'm very reassured. Since when in Britain have the authorities ever kept important things secret from the people?

I'm quite content to call it 'an area of the city centre where there will be many shops' instead of 'a shopping centre' if that makes you all happy - if you read the original L1 thread, you will notice it's advocates call it a shopping centre many times, without anyone throwing their dummy out of the pram.
Are you sure your not confusing your definition with the fact that there is a shopping centre WITHIN the L1 plans? (which there is) Nobody has thrown their dummy out of the pram, its just a little frustrating when people respond to your points and you just completely ignore them.

Most of what I have said has been misinterpreted here, and a lot of words have been put into my mouth
:rofl:
Thats been all you!

(such as the suggestion that I want proportional representation - I have never ever advocated this electoral arrangement anywhere - where did that come from?)
Saying that the decision making behind Tithebarn has been undemocratic when the majority of Prestonians are actually in support. The only way you can justify your statement otherwise is by referencing a PR system.

I'm not in principle opposed to any kind of development in the city centre, as I've said many times, the city centre is the right place for such development.
Yeh, I've wondered why you say that, you seem to contradict yourself quite a bit :?

What I am opposed to, as I've said before, is the failure to properly involve Preston people in decisions that affect the long-term destiny of our city
We are involved in the basic decision making. The whole Tithebarn concept was invented based on Public Consultation. You cant get people involved in the nitty-gritty decision making though (which is what you seem to want) when most Prestonians (including myself) wouldn't have a clue what they were on about.

the way that Tithebarn is dominating so much of the thinking, energy and priorities of the council,
Erm yes... thats why its been delayed by 5 years...
I'm not going through the other council activities AGAIN. I've explained it to you three times already and I'm not wasting any more of my time doing it again.

the downgrading of our bus station
How do you actually define the downgrading of the bus station? Do you mean the size? Are you seriously suggesting the current bus station which is only used to roughly half capacity ISN'T too big?

which will have consequences for other parts of the city centre - such as the markets,
Positive consequences? The market isn't going to lose any footfall. Although the current bus station is closer to the market, the disaster that is the bus stations pedestrian access plan currently leads footfall away from the markets.

the shift in informal power over the destiny of our city to the developers and the unelected vision board
The developers and the vision board don't decide things. The developers develop things and the vision board make outline plans and gather funding. Why? Because that is what they are good at! Its no good getting somebody who doesn't have a clue what they are doing from some random house in Longsands to draw up a plan for the city centre! The elected council planning office make the decisions.

the way that the council has 'put all it's development eggs in one basket
Just for the city centre... University Quarter Movement Strategy, Corporation Street Railway Lands, Riverworks, Business Improvement District, Commercial Quarter, Prison Quarter, Winckley Square Improvement Scheme, Fox Street Investment Programme, Friargate Brow Investment Scheme, AvenCentral Regeneration, Preston £9bn Infrastructure 10 Year Programme... you were saying?

a high risk strategy when we have already paid so much for Tithebarn in terms of the planning blight that is currently affecting the area concerned.
Plans that wouldn't even have been submitted if it wasn't for Tithebarn. Again, I've said to you already, the overall blight had already begun. Tithebarn has been a reversal. There are already examples in Preston of the damage that can be done as a result of uncontrolled development in the city centre where land values are falling. Maybe you would have preferred something like this:
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/163/437477399_82f89afe95.jpg?v=0

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/93/241509257_c3087ac742_b.jpg

Because thats exactly what we would have got.

Strangely enough I have no objection to people making money out of the scheme - I just want them to be honest about this - it was Accura who said this scheme was not about making money - NONSENSE: of course it is.
I never denied that it was about making money for Grosvenor. For Preston though it is not, keeping our economy healthy, yes. But there would have been far cheaper and more profitable ways to develop this land to simply make money. This is restoring Preston's historic buildings, rebuilding lost streets and generally making the city centre a far more pleasant place to be.

The implication in much of the propaganda around the scheme that this is somehow an act of great generosity by the Duke of Westminster to the people of Preston is frankly ludicrous.
:laugh: When did anyone ever say this was generosity on behalf of the Duke of Westminster? Both the council and the local media have openly criticised Grosvenor for prioritising their Liverpool scheme, and rightly so.

One thing I will say about Grosvenor's thinking is that it differs from the current 'short termism' that characterises most of British Business - the lust for short term profits and immediate returns. Grosvenor instead are thinking in terms of decades and centuries, and have won control of some very valuable land for a very long time.
The development agreement with Grosvenor works both ways. Preston Council handed over the land in agreement that Grosvenor will develop it as the council want it. If Grosvenor don't do that, then by law, the council can take the land straight back off them.

Failing to involve Preston people because they are not 'experts' and 'master planners' is a mistake. As we all should know 'Experts' and 'Master Planners' have a long track record of not listening to ordinary people, and then leaving a terrible mess behind them.
Yes, something which Tithebarn is actually cleaning up :) The masterplans of the 60's and 70's were seen as a way forward at the time. Very few at the time did not realise how much the car based environment would take off. Mistakes taken into account, but we cannot just stand still and hope for the best. Doing nothing is not an option.

Nowhere anywhere have I ever suggested or implied that this scheme involves backhanders or conspiracies. Have you heard some rumours Accura?
I have heard no rumours. You suggested it though with your reference to Elaine Abbot.

If the biggest claim for democracy in Preston is that it is better than Saudi, UAE, Russia or China, then we really are in trouble.
I was pointing out how lucky we are ;) I could compare us to Germany if you would like! :happy:

Thanks Accura, I'm very reassured. Since when in Britain have the authorities ever kept important things secret from the people?
Central government, maybe. However, the idea of local councillors (especially in Preston) keeping top secrets is quite frankly laughable. They are not important enough! Preston Council don't seem too bad on the whole. As someone living in South Ribble, I can tell you that my council are so much worse, as are LCC. I was gutted the day the unitary authority was rejected. I wouldn't have cared if Preston marched its secret stormtroopers (yes, I've heard rumours) over Penwortham Bridge on the day South Ribble council fell, I would still have been over the moon :D

I'm quite content to call it 'an area of the city centre where there will be many shops' instead of 'a shopping centre' if that makes you all happy - if you read the original L1 thread, you will notice it's advocates call it a shopping centre many times, without anyone throwing their dummy out of the pram.

Except, yet again, you are ignoring all other facets of the development. As stated, any "dummy throwing" is purely down to your pig-headedness on this topic.

What I am opposed to, as I've said before, is the failure to properly involve Preston people

Why oh why oh why has there been ANY failure to do this? There has already been one consultation in the last few months, a more permanent means is about to be set up. All the planning documentation/proposals etc is available online or hard copy at the council offices. The only people who haven't been involved are those who probably can't be arsed anyway.

Strangely enough I have no objection to people making money out of the scheme

You could have fooled me, the constant sniping about it being only a "shopping cent£r" (to use one example) seems to have made that pretty clear.

The implication in much of the propaganda around the scheme that this is somehow an act of great generosity by the Duke of Westminster to the people of Preston is frankly ludicrous.
Please provide some evidence to support this comment.

I could go on, but once again Accura has done a sterling job and Riversider's attention span will probably have failed by the fifth word....

CaptainJason said:name one building that preston could have been proud of that has been rejected due to tithebarn?
Have a look here:

http://www.lep.co.uk/news/Public-inquiry-over-rejected-10m.3753777.jp

A public inquiry is to be held over a decision to reject a proposed £10m development in Preston.
Two separate applications for an apartment and office complex at the junction of Shepherd Street and Rose Street in Preston have been thrown out by councillors on the planning committee.

The firm behind the scheme – Oberston Holdings, run by the millionaire Patel family – appealed to the Secretary of State after the first rejection in September last year.

That decision will be considered at the inquiry, which is open to the public, at Preston Town Hall on April 1.

The plan was first turned down because it did not conform to council planning policy and was considered prejudicial to the £750m Tithebarn Regeneration Project.

A spokesman for Preston Council said the inquiry could take several days.

A Government inspector will examine written evidence from the applicants and the council, and is likely to hear evidence from both parties before making a written judgement.

Arif Patel, whose uncleruns Oberston Holdings, said they feel there is a "good chance" the appeal will succeed.

He said: "Everybody wants it down there. If you go there it needs regenerating. At worst this will kickstart Tithebarn, will benefit Preston and we will get satisfaction even from that."

The proposed development is near the planned site for a new bus station on the corner of Manchester Road.

The Evening Post reported how nearby businesses backed Oberston Holdings, saying a lack of action on Tithebarn had left the area "blighted" by lack of investment.
A spokesman for Preston Council said the authority would represent itself at the inquiry and set out the reasoning behind its decision.


When millionaires fall out, sometimes the rest of us get a small insight into what goes on behind closed doors. I look forward to hearing more from this inquiry.

Accura - In my reference to Elaine Abbott I said that she had recently written in the LEP about the supine attitude taken by the council in relation to the developers. She did not mention "conspiracies" or "backhanders" in that article, and to the best of my knowledge, she never has, so it does puzzle me where you got those particular words from.

so you would rather have a 10 million scheme which will provide some housing and retail units opposed to hundereds of millions that the tithebarn will cost and the housing, retail and leisure facilities that it will produce.
i am abit dubious about the patels motives as why is it only now that these schemes are being presented. especially that guild legacy tower which in the first renders was nice then became a great big blob. as i have said before i would rather a carpark built than that.

"The plan was first turned down because it did not conform to council planning policy" it didnt fit planning policy, one of the reasons it was turned down. developers seem to use "tithebarn being a blight" whenever anything gets turned down.

The reason i object to calling it a shopping centre is because you are using it as a put down of the whole scheme. having shopping centres in city centres was a mistake of the 60's/70's also it is not a shopping centre but no doubt you will keep refering to it as such. tithebarn is a retail led redevelopment of the city centre with different elements also included. I said retail led not shopping centre, there is a difference so no twisting my words please.

The Oberston application was clearly meant to be 'as well as' rather than 'instead of' Tithebarn - seems some people don't like fair competition.

If you really are so precious that you want me to call Tithebarn "a retail led redevelopment of the city centre with different elements also included" instead of a 'shopping centre', I will quite happily do so. Does seem a bit of a mouthful though, and I think it's unlikely to catch on.

CaptainJason said:
Have a look here:

http://www.lep.co.uk/news/Public-inquiry-over-rejected-10m.3753777.jp
There are a number of dodgy dealings behind the Patel's application for this land (and the Tradex site). Approved applications on sites often raise the land value. As a government representing body, it is the Planning Office's decision to reject buildings that they think are unfeasible or the developer has no intention of building.

When millionaires fall out, sometimes the rest of us get a small insight into what goes on behind closed doors. I look forward to hearing more from this inquiry.
You enjoy this kind of thing? Did you actually give a shit about the Ribble when you joined the Save the Ribble campaign or were you just using it as an excuse to have yet another little tirade against the council? :ohno:

Accura - In my reference to Elaine Abbott I said that she had recently written in the LEP about the supine attitude taken by the council in relation to the developers. She did not mention "conspiracies" or "backhanders" in that article, and to the best of my knowledge, she never has, so it does puzzle me where you got those particular words from.
Okay, thats fine. My mistake. I was gearing up for a good old Preston Docks argument.

The Oberston application was clearly meant to be 'as well as' rather than 'instead of' Tithebarn - seems some people don't like fair competition.
No, BOTH Oberston application's directly conflicted with Tithebarn. Not competitively, DIRECTLY. Not only that, but the 2nd application conflicted with another separate application submitted beforehand and completely separate to Tithebarn. Thats just outstandingly sloppy homework from them.

If you really are so precious that you want me to call Tithebarn "a retail led redevelopment of the city centre with different elements also included" instead of a 'shopping centre', I will quite happily do so. Does seem a bit of a mouthful though, and I think it's unlikely to catch on.
I've never heard anyone else in Preston use that term to describe Tithebarn apart from you. The proper term is Mixed Use Development. Retail anchored, yes, but since no more than roughly 50% of the project is actually retail, calling it a shopping centre is stretching the mark quite a lot.

Oh yeah, while your around Riversider, I would really like you to answer my question about why you think the bus station is being downgraded.

This is starting to get quite pathetic. Just let bygones be bygones.

I think you're right PrestonGuy. You would all get a better response with a more mature response to critical questioning than the one displayed in this thread - I enjoyed reading the thread Accura created about whether L1 was 'just a shopping centre', there people were able to take minority viewpoints and question the received wisdom, without getting stomped all over by everyone else - I suggest the Tithebarn fanatics have a read, and learn how to conduct a civilised discussion.

One reason why I like to ask critical questions, is that if all we give our 'leaders' is wide eyed, uncritical applause, then they will quickly learn that they can dish out any kind of nondescript schlock to us providing they hype it adequately - Clonetown here we come.

Accura asks why I think the Bus Station is being downgraded - firstly there is the vast drop in capacity, less than half the capacity will be left - which if we were serious about boosting public transport we would never ever sacrifice, the planet is in serious danger from global warming, and getting people to use cars less and buses more will be vital to any successful strategy to mitigate this.

Secondly I do not believe any replacement will have the facilities that the current bus station has. I doubt whether you would be able to visit the new bus station, get your hair cut, buy a few records, have a pie and chips then buy a few presents for your family without ever leaving the station itself.

You can have a whole day out just exploring Preston Bus Station, and you'd be surprised how many people do exactly that, (and it's not true that this is because they can't find the exit).

Okay, cheers for that. I'll have a proper look tomorrow, I'm too tired tonight :(

Secondly I do not believe any replacement will have the facilities that the current bus station has. I doubt whether you would be able to visit the new bus station, get your hair cut, buy a few records, have a pie and chips then buy a few presents for your family without ever leaving the station itself.


With the city centre next door why would it need any of those facilities?

(As for buying presents for my family, please.......)

a bus station should just be a terminal for people to pass through. if its is properly intergrated into the city centre then there is no need for it to contain shops.

a bus station should just be a terminal for people to pass through. if its is properly intergrated into the city centre then there is no need for it to contain shops.

If this is so, then why not say so, rather than repeatedly saying 'the new bus station will have the same facilities as the old one' - which will clearly not be true.

The same logic is not being applied to railway stations or airports, which are becoming shopping malls themselves (I know someone who prefers to fly, just so she can browse the airport shops - perhaps we could attract people onto buses in this way).

It's crazy in this era of global warming that we are increasing the capacity of airports, and reducing the capacity of bus stations.


BTW It looks like I called Tithebarn 'A Shopping Centre' one time too many: http://www.lep.co.uk/news/Axeman-smashes-up-internet-cafe.3764081.jp

lol ^^^

airports and rail stations are different. people have t hang around in them for connections delays and such. if you look at chorley bus station or, paradise street station in liverpool or the one under chorlton street carpark in manchester theres no shops in the apart from the odd vending machine.
It would be nice however to have shops in the station that face onto church street.

On the subject of reduced capacity, I don't see any reason to justify keeping the excess space the bus station has. If you look at bus routes in Preston, South Ribble and Chorley, pretty much everywhere is served. There is no need to make new routes, so all the unused stands that currently exist are a waste of space (and to be honest, the fact that the bus station has a stand per every single route in Lancashire is pretty poor, certainly very environmentally unfriendly). Even when Stagecoach started doubling up on Preston Bus' routes, they barely made a dent in the emptiness on the east side of the bus station. Even if you wanted to put extra buses on those routes, those buses should be using the same stand and kept constantly on the move, and not sat at the bus station doing nothing for up to half an hour (which they currently, and very annoyingly do).

The bus station only uses half the stands it has, and those in use could be much more efficiently managed. Wasting prime city centre land is an even greater waste of global resources than building bus stations too big. And anyway, if PCC was allowed to do what it wants and build four small satalite stations around the variety of places folk want to go to around the city centre with quick connections to a larger interchange for regional buses, the total number of stands would probably be an increase over the current provision and would enjoy greater patronage, as the buses would actually take people closer to their destination and be closer to their departure point - not necessarily the same place. :bash:

Ground conditions in Preston city centre are now being tested in advance of the £700m Tithebarn redevelopment.

Geological conditions, ground water levels and even potential archaeological information are all being checked for as part of this work.

This investigation into ground conditions will last several weeks and involve contractors drilling bore holes into the ground at locations in and around the bus station and markets areas.

Councillor Ken Hudson, leader of the council and chairman of the city centre committee, welcomed this ground condition survey.

He said: "It is good to see this work start.

"It will allow us to identify the ground conditions within the Tithebarn area so that we and the developers know what we were dealing with in advance of any major construction work that, subject to planning permissions, would be required for Tithebarn.

"It will also provide initial archaeological information on the Tithebarn area and indicate any areas of potential archaeological interest which may need to be addressed during the construction process.

"We are not expecting that there will be, as most of the area was completely redeveloped in the 1960's, but it is important we have a proper look and see.

"People will notice a number of small compounds in the bus station and markets area and may also hear some drilling noise during the day, but this is routine work and has been programmed to cause minimum disruption and inconvenience."

Anthony Gill from the Preston Tithebarn Partnership added: "We are pleased the ground conditions survey is underway.

"It is part and parcel of the preparatory work required for any major scheme like this and will help us in progressing with detailed design work."

If this is so, then why not say so, rather than repeatedly saying 'the new bus station will have the same facilities as the old one' - which will clearly not be true.


It was my opinion, not any "Propaganda" as you would call it.

Out of curiosty, how do you know it will not possess the same facilities? Perhaps you can provide your source and evidence?

The 'evidence' is simply that the proposed new bus station is so tiny in comparison with our current bus station, that there simply cannot be room for all the facilities that our current bus station enjoys.

People who parrot claims that it will have the same facilities need to start using their critical faculties, before they waste away altogether.

The refrain of the Tithebarn fanatics is 'size doesn't matter', but the reality is that we could have exploited all that capacity to develop a really fantastic public transport system... if we'd really wanted to. Trouble is public transport and the people who use public transport will always be lower on the list of our council's priorities than the profits of developers.

The 'evidence' is simply that the proposed new bus station is so tiny in comparison with our current bus station, that there simply cannot be room for all the facilities that our current bus station enjoys.
I would hardly call it tiny. Lets consider, end to end of the bus station what the space is used for. At the hotel end is a disused club lounge, the seating area in the open space around that club is never used because no buses stop there. Instead the space attracts youths who want to drink, grind the benches on their BMX's or alternatively homeless people drinking beer out of a bag. Next along we have a toilet block which I have always seen locked because nobody is ever down that end. Then we go past the National Express office (continuing down past this whole area are about 20 unused bays, and NE only have one coach in at a time). Then we walk for about 20 metres along a blank depressing white tiled wall, until we get to an access point, with the Preston Bus office, a newsagent and the subway access. The subway link to St John's has an opening that is at least 15m long, which in itself is massive. Flanking that is the station cafe which is well used, but does not justify the amount of space that it takes up. Then we have another toilet block which is frequently used for dodgy dealings, some empty cupboards, the LCC Travel office adjacent to the Stagecoach office, then another 20m of blank wall and then into yet another huge open space which is used by the local youth (more the chavvy type this time) and yet another long gaping opening for the subway. This end is slightly busier thanks to the presence of Fishwicks. On the Preston Bus side of the station, its pretty much the same story bar (I think) 3 retail units. One hairdressers, another newsagent and I think the 3rd is currently empty but it used to be some kind of variety shop.
Oh yes of course, I'm forgetting the old cab station which has been disused for what? 10 years? I'm sure Paul at PL.net can give you a more accurate answer. Also another trouble hotspot. Not now it has had hoardings put around it though :D Thinking of all that space, I could lop off a quarter of it just by losing the two open bits at the end. The new station will have plenty of room to accomodate the current service and retail offer. Maybe only 1 toilet block instead of 2, but that is all that is needed. From what I can see, much of the mezzanine is disused as well. Both in terms of facilities and bus services, the current station cannot justify its current size.

People who parrot claims that it will have the same facilities need to start using their critical faculties, before they waste away altogether.
Cheers Riversider. Nice to know you have so much courtesy for those who don't necessarily agree with you :ohno:

The refrain of the Tithebarn fanatics is 'size doesn't matter', but the reality is that we could have exploited all that capacity to develop a really fantastic public transport system... if we'd really wanted to.
Yep, and for a lot less of the taxpayers money, we could just build a brand spanking new one in a better location! And don't say that we think size doesn't matter. We just think the current one is too big in size whereas your trying to say the new one will be too small even though you haven't seen the designs yet!

Trouble is public transport and the people who use public transport will always be lower on the list of our council's priorities than the profits of developers.
Yurp!

Ground conditions in Preston city centre are now being tested in advance of the £700m Tithebarn redevelopment.

Geological conditions, ground water levels and even potential archaeological information are all being checked for as part of this work.

This investigation into ground conditions will last several weeks and involve contractors drilling bore holes into the ground at locations in and around the bus station and markets areas.

Councillor Ken Hudson, leader of the council and chairman of the city centre committee, welcomed this ground condition survey.

He said: "It is good to see this work start.

"It will allow us to identify the ground conditions within the Tithebarn area so that we and the developers know what we were dealing with in advance of any major construction work that, subject to planning permissions, would be required for Tithebarn.

"It will also provide initial archaeological information on the Tithebarn area and indicate any areas of potential archaeological interest which may need to be addressed during the construction process.

"We are not expecting that there will be, as most of the area was completely redeveloped in the 1960's, but it is important we have a proper look and see.

"People will notice a number of small compounds in the bus station and markets area and may also hear some drilling noise during the day, but this is routine work and has been programmed to cause minimum disruption and inconvenience."

Anthony Gill from the Preston Tithebarn Partnership added: "We are pleased the ground conditions survey is underway.

"It is part and parcel of the preparatory work required for any major scheme like this and will help us in progressing with detailed design work."

Ahhh! I wondered what all those fenced off areas were for! So far I have seen three. The old taxi rank, one of the east facing bus station bays, and that grassy area in between Lancaster Road and Tithebarn Street.

People who parrot claims that it will have the same facilities need to start using their critical faculties, before they waste away altogether.
Yes, but WHO has said it will have the same facilities who is speaking on behalf of the council or the developer? That is what I want to know, where have you seen an officially published comment stating that the new bus station will have the same facilities as the old.

I will accept your comment when I have seen this.

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=53190

I stumbled accross this for anyone who might be interested, a history of Preston. I found it quite interesting.

The plans for the project can be found at:
http://www.preston.gov.uk/news/GeneralM.asp?id=SX9452-A780EAD6

looks good. so long as they keep the majority of the mature trees and the origional railings i can see this as a definate improvement.

I hope this breathes some life into the square. Looks like they are taking measures to allow more natural light into the gardens, which I'm very happy about :)

Little snippet of news about the Capitol Centre:

Tesco Homeplus to open new store at Capitol retail park, Preston

http://www.theretailbulletin.com/news/tesco_homeplus_to_open_new_store_at_capitol_retail_park_preston_28-01-08/

My dad was on the judging panel for the Winckley Sq comp. He thought that the winning design was very uninspired and mundane. Then again, the scheme he put top of his list was on the bottom of every one else's. I've just had the briefest of looks at the pdf on the PCC site and the artificial lighting is very disappointing imo.

Preston's historic Miller Arcade could be transformed into the city's new restaurant district. The arcade on Church Street in the city centre has been snapped up for £8.6m by property firms Kilmartin and The Bluemantle Group.

The two now intend to pump in thousands of pounds and take it "upmarket".

They aim to refurbish the listed Victorian building in the short-term and have a long-term plan to bring a mixture of classy restaurants and shops, with apartments on the top three floors.

The arcade is currently home to 12 outlets including Millets, Cafe Manyana, French Connection and the Parmesan and Pepper restaurant.

Bluemantle chief executive Mark Caldwell said the consortium is looking to revitalise it and attract shoppers back in.

He said: "Over time we could see the place going really upmarket with restaurants and high-class shops coming into the arcade. In the short-term we want to make it somewhere people want to come again.

"We have no intention of kicking existing retailers out of the arcade, we see it as a natural progression."

He said the developers would begin a refurbishment of the arcade by the middle of this year, and intended to use planning permission granted to turn the upper floors into city centre flats.

The development boss said the location of the arcade at the centre of the £800m Tithebarn regeneration area convinced the developers to make their big money investment.

The Grade I-listed building, which was one of the first steel-framed buildings in the region when it was built in 1899, was bought from Bamber Bridge-based Maple Grove Developments, part of construction firm The Eric Wright Group.

:) It's great to finally see progress with this project!

just out of curiosity does anyone have any diagrams for the other schemes for Winkley Square?

just out of curiosity does anyone have any diagrams for the other schemes for Winkley Square?
I don't but I might see what I can find out.

Miller arcade won't work as luxury residential apartments just opposite Lava/Ignite on Psycho Alley. Much better as a hotel or some such. Presume that's why Maple Grove got cold feet - selling it for a million or two less than they paid I believe.

seeing what you could find would be good.

would it be possible to use it as offices?
if they did go for residential it would probably work as cyristal house sold out pretty quick and miller arcade is a much nicer looking building. what was its origional use for the upper floors?

^Turkish baths

reopen it as that? health care facility something which we dont have at all in the city centre???

^Turkish baths

These were in the cellar. The upper floors were designed as a hotel.

This report slams the upkeep of Preston's Parks: http://www.lep.co.uk/news/29000-report-says-parks-are.3800712.jp

The money available for maintenance, and even lighting, is drying up rapidly - so while the council pumps money into Winckley Square they are abandoning the rest of Preston's open spaces to vandals and litter.

Seems likely to me that unless the Council change their policies on maintenance, we will find that not long after pumping all this capital into Winckley Square, it will turn back into the neglected space it is now, just like the other parks and play areas in Preston.

they are abandoning the rest of Preston's open spaces to vandals and litter.


Am I imagining what is going on in Avenham Park then? Surely the vandalism issue is as much down to Lancashire Police?

Read the report Jon - "More than 90 sites in Preston were rated as poor or average, despite the city council being recommended to provide good quality sites as a minimum.

Some of the city's worst play areas are at Grange Park, which scored just 30%, Ashton Park (32%), Cottam Park (20%) and Savick Park (28%).

The report also found that provision for toddlers, juniors and teenagers rated from average to extremely poor.

Council chiefs defended the cost of the report at a time when the council is making budget cuts – including cutting funding for lighting in parks."

Vandals are strange creatures - if a place looks well looked after, clean and cared for, they are much less likely to vandalise it.

Sad to say, there's plenty of areas that don't fit this description in Preston.

The moneys not coming from the council its the NWA. The parks in the city centre should be priority as there the ones most accesable by Prestonians. You have to start somewhere and Miller Park, Avenham Park and Winkley Square are good starting points.

Following up the sale of Miller Arcade, I found this on Bluemantle's web site.
Anyone know anything about it? Says they've been awarded the scheme by PCC but it's passed by my radar.
http://www.bluemantlegroup.co.uk/newdevelopments4.html

Guess that's more Tithebarn. I'm pretty sure that isn't something that hasn't got planning permission currently. Looks a damm site more impressive than Tango Joes and makes the Miller Arcade purchase look sensible. I do think something more interesting can be done with the upper floors than apartments. With no parking and the location I can't imagine that it would be a particularly successful development, but hell Crystal House is pretty much sold out apparently.

Guess that's more Tithebarn. I'm pretty sure that isn't something that hasn't got planning permission currently. Looks a damm site more impressive than Tango Joes and makes the Miller Arcade purchase look sensible.
I do think something more interesting can be done with the upper floors than apartments. With no parking and the location I can't imagine that it would be a particularly successful development, but hell Crystal House is pretty much sold out apparently.

Was down Avenham Park last week. Things are coming along very nicely there

Following up the sale of Miller Arcade, I found this on Bluemantle's web site.
Anyone know anything about it? Says they've been awarded the scheme by PCC but it's passed by my radar.
http://www.bluemantlegroup.co.uk/newdevelopments4.html

I can't say I've seen anything in the planning applications register for this site but it is earmarked on Tithebarn's masterplan as an area for 'potential future development'. Maybe the building will be snapped up with a compulsory purchase order, it is a prime site that will sit directly opposite the new bus station afterall [it will be the main route leading from Church Street to the Tithebarn area so it really needs a striking development as opposed to, sorry to say it, skanky flats!]. It's interesting that it says it includes a library, as Grosvenor had ruled out including that as part of Tithebarn suggesting this is a separate project altogether.

I can't say I've seen anything in the planning applications register for this site but it is earmarked on Tithebarn's masterplan as an area for 'potential future development'. Maybe the building will be snapped up with a compulsory purchase order, it is a prime site that will sit directly opposite the new bus station afterall [it will be the main route leading from Church Street to the Tithebarn area so it really needs a striking development as opposed to, sorry to say it, skanky flats!]. It's interesting that it says it includes a library, as Grosvenor had ruled out including that as part of Tithebarn suggesting this is a separate project altogether.
Where exactly is this site?

By the mention of 'sckanvku falts' im guessing he means the shitttty flats above Tango Joes.

looks like they demolished most of one side of church street. Is this an actual scheme or just some sort of crazy vision?

Looking at the picture, the former TSB bank is still there and what the proposed scheme seems to be replacing is the Tango Joes, Premier House and the flats above. I guess the Jazz Bar and Guild Tavern will also be demolished. Plus the row of takeaways which run between Guild Row and Church Row, which although are mostly Victorian, are not of much architectural merit and the flat car park next to Church Row. Having said that with the picture of the plans for bus station, which is taking out another block means there won’t be much left of Church Street. I guess that’s one way of dealing with Psycho Alley!!

Incidently, the building which houses Premier House, Tango Joes etc. is, or at least used to be, owned by Preston Council. LCC also own the former TSB bank premises

Luxury flats could be built on the site of Preston's first-ever bank.
The derelict former TSB building, on Church Street opposite the city's minster, will also be surrounded by restaurants, bars, shops and offices.

Mark Caldwell, managing director of property development group Bluemantle, said it had been selected as the preferred developer for the Churchgate scheme as part of the £800m Tithebarn regeneration.

However, bosses at Preston Council were today staying tight-lipped over the future of the site once described as "one of Preston's forgotten gems".

Mr Caldwell said: "The plans for the site have changed since we were selected to do the work, as originally it was intended to be flats accommodation and shops.

"Now it is a combination of leisure units offering more on the restaurant side of things and then accommodation around it.

"We are thinking there will be somewhere in the region of about 200 apartments on that site, which is obviously in a prime location within the city centre and at the heart of the Tithebarn zone."

Chief executive Jim Carr, of Preston Council, said the council was "considering a number of options" for sites throughout the city centre, including the former TSB building.

He said: "These are at a preliminary stage and need further discussions before we can begin to take them forward.

"No agreement has been reached on redevelopment of Churchgate, which is the site bounded by Lancaster Road, Church Street and Tithebarn."

The building was the site of Preston's first bank, built in 1690 and run by Pedder and Co.

The Pedders moved to another building in 1776, and the Church Street building was rebuilt in 1905 as the Trustees' Savings Bank (TSB).

In 2002, plans to turn the building into a £2m "super pub" fell through over licensing issues.

Incidently, the building which houses Premier House, Tango Joes etc. is, or at least used to be, owned by Preston Council. LCC also own the former TSB bank premises
On the front page of tonight's Post it says the restoration of weekly bin collections in the new Tory budget is partially funded by the sale of "two landmark buildings". Could be this one? The Council would be remaining "tight lipped" about the sale of council housing if the tenants haven't been notified yet. :nuts:

06/2008/0149 Listed Building Consent for demolition of internal non-structural wall
Type: Listed Building Consent
Officer: Mrs J Filbin
Ward: Town Centre
Parish:
50/52 Lancaster Road Preston
Grid Ref: SD 540295
18/02/2008
Determination Type: Delegated
Applicant /Agent
Preston Tithebarn Partnership c/o Grosvenor Office 70 Grosvenor Street London W1K 3JP
GVA Grimley Ltd 10 Stratton Street London W1J 8JK

http://www.preston.gov.uk/Documents/General/week%2047%20weekly%20list%2022.02.08.pdf

Although rather minor, possibly the first of the Tithebarn Project planning permission applications. This is the Princes Building which is in community use at the moment, on the corner of Lord Street, next to the Guild Hall. The premises was once mooted as hosting a new library for Preston.

was in preston yesterday for first time properly in about a 8 months.. the new building going up to the side of Brunel court student halls is looking really cool, nice stepped-effect.. and its good to finally see the steel framework for that other student accommodation block going up just up the road from it, creating a rather neat little corridor coming up that road with the University Faculty of Science (Darwin) on the other side. Didnt see much else mind, could see there was activity near the police station (with the 6 storey building)

Yeah I like the look of that new development on Marsh Lane, the pics look very promising. I live in Chorley now so I have noticed small changes when I come back home but nothing major yet. Tithebarn seems to be awakening [finally] from it's Paradise Street induced coma as more detailed plans seem to be emerging...

The new Pavillion Stand at Deepdale seems to be coming along nicely - I was sceptical at first because it will only hold about 4,000, but now I've seen it going up it looks brilliant and I can't wait to see the ground completed!

I've got my eye on one of those executive boxes for myself in a few years time when hopefully I've got a bit more money! I'd be interested to know who has bought the £40,000 box.

There's an video update on the stand here, with video (http://www.pnefc.premiumtv.co.uk/page/Hospitality/0,,10362~1241544,00.html)

And a webcam of the construction here (http://http://www.pneimages.co.uk/webcam.html)

(You might need to be registed on the PNE website to see these)

There's also some pictures on the site below for anyone who's interested.

http://www.gazbond.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/deepdale/development.htm#null

North End is a touchy subject for me right now......

Although rather minor, possibly the first of the Tithebarn Project planning permission applications. This is the Princes Building which is in community use at the moment, on the corner of Lord Street, next to the Guild Hall. The premises was once mooted as hosting a new library for Preston.

Could be for them to open up some temporary on-site offices for Grosvenor?

Is this the location that was specified for the consultation outlet?

Nice earthquake btw :cool:

Nice earthquake btw :cool:
Yeah that was a bit weird, I thought I'd imagined it!
Anyway, was in town yesterday and noticed how great the Light Buildings were looking (when viewed from Adelphi roundabout anyway), I hope it encourages more development down Walker St to really brighten it up. Was also good to see that Peacocks will be coming to The Mall St Georges, adding some more choice to the centre and pretty much filling the last vacant units! I still hate the fact that Crystal House wasn't obliterated but it is looking far better, but the top of the tower is a bit of a mess. Just plain old metal, yuk!

On the subject of Walker Street, there is still a huge amount of development potential down there. The Walker Street car park is designated as an area of development (and that is a massive site), there is a vacant piece of land what used to be a car wash opposite the BT building, the small building at the roundabout is due to be replaced with an 8-storey building, and there are a number of council houses that are on their last legs. Coupled with that, the police station (another large site) is due to be demolished within 5 years!

...add into that the car hire place and the scrappy garages and you do have a lot of development sites.

Two bits of news today:

Floating Village at Brockholes

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/lancashire/7263251.stm

Loving the idea! A bit drastic, and I'm not convinced it will happen, but would look great from the M6!

Plus the plans to demolish a small mill down New Hall Lane and replace it with 'a large housing scheme' have been approved. This isn't a massive site and its next door to Centenary, so we are probably looking at apartments.

I made a business trip to Manchester with some colleagues on Wednesday to study BDP's Abito affordable residential block near Victoria Station which has been featured in trade journals in the last year. To our surprise, the developers, Ask Developments Ltd, took the opportunity to give us a Powerpoint presentation of their proposals for the Church Place development opposite the Minster.
It would be indiscreet to post minutes of our meeting, but if you have questions I feel I can answer, I can't stop you asking . . .

How tall?

I've put this in the Blackpool Tram thread but as it involves Preston I thought you fella's would be interested to.

In today's Blackpool Gazette, there is an article about the future plan for the Tram line to extend it to Preston.

http://www.blackpoolgazette.co.uk/bl...-to.3824881.jp

Personally I believe it would be alot cheaper just to extend it to Blackpool North Train Station.

I guess their thinking is as it involves Preston, there is a better chance of it happening.

The plans for the former quarry at Brockholes Brow are fairly advance I believe. A company we work with have being carrying out transport assessments over the last year and from what i understand, funding is in place to take the scheme forward. Not sure, but I think the quarry operators may have a couple of years left on their permit however. I have heard that it is a really exciting and quite ambitious scheme which NWDA hope will turn into a tourist attraction

It would be indiscreet to post minutes of our meeting, but if you have questions I feel I can answer, I can't stop you asking . . .
Thank you for the opportunity! My main question is how likely this is to happen as we've seen too many proposals that never came to be, but this one certainly looks more likely to come about especially since it was discussed. Also, how big of an area does the site cover and [like Accura] I'd like an idea of how tall it could be. Thanks!

not a chance in hell of the trams being extended to blackpool. what would be the point when there is a decent enough transport network between blackpool and preston.

is the render what there actually proposing or will it go through a magical change like the patels crap tradex tower

Thank you for the opportunity! My main question is how likely this is to happen as we've seen too many proposals that never came to be, but this one certainly looks more likely to come about especially since it was discussed. Also, how big of an area does the site cover and [like Accura] I'd like an idea of how tall it could be. Thanks!
Tallness:
We were shown some sections, but I have no reason to think that they are particularly different from the height shown on this visual -
http://www.bluemantlegroup.co.uk/newdevelopments4.html
Extent of the site:
Although originally considered to include the parade of shops from Richer Sounds to The Stanley Arms, these buildings are not included, as their existing value precluded their acquisition in the developer's calculations. The site therefore includes the former TSB building (front portion retained), Empire House, The Guild Tavern, The Jazz Bar and land up to the service road (Wards End) for shops to the south side of the Guild Hall Arcade and Charter Theatre servicing. Wards End is to reconfigured with limited hours servicing to the Guild Arcade shops and the Church Place development. I don't think the buildings between Guild Row & Church Row are included (thanks Google Maps!).
Footprint:
The proposed footprint is rather different from the visual above. Opposite the Minster is to be a substatial public realm square, providing a much improved setting for the Minster, linking across Church Street with integrated hard landscaping finishes. Around the new square on the north side of Church Street is a 'horseshoe' of about 8,500 ft² of A3 Leisure uses (restaurants) with a distinctly 'family offer', (ie, not pubs, clubs) and one 3,500 ft² A1 retail unit. The first floor is mostly car parking for the residential units above - unfortunately not below ground, where it should be of course.
On top of the parking, is a semi public space for the residences, and being at the height of the Minster's nave roof, will provide an interesting prospect of the Minster. There are to be 2 residential towers - one in the Abito model providing about 73,000 ft² of living space, and one more traditional tower of 2 and 3 bedroom apartments offering 76,000 ft² of accommodation, many of which may be on a shared ownership model providing affordable housing. I think that comes to a total of nearly 300 units.
I remember the total net development space was around 186,000 ft², so that leaves about 25,000 ft² for office / commercial - can't remember how or where that was configured - maybe a 3rd tower?
Likelyhood:
The developers have liaised closely with Grosvenor, with the result that Church Place and Tithebarn view each other as complementary and integrated proposals - unlike the Matalan Tower which is all about increasing land value for sale to Grosvenor. The developers do not see any requirement for CPOs in their land acquisition. They therefore feel very optimistic about delivery, although there is of course a lot for Places For People to do in resettling Empire House residents prior to commencement of the scheme.

Wow sounds good. Glad there leaving the bit between Richer Sounds and Stanley arms. So in a few years the city centre is really going to be a giant construction site.

unlike the Matalan Tower which is all about increasing land value for sale to Grosvenor
Wha?!

http://www.architecture.com/UseAnArchitect/FindAnArchitect/Competitions/Results/Results2008/Brockholes/Winningdesign.aspx

The tram link from Blackpool does seem to duplicate the rail link. Obviously there could be a few extra stops, but this is definitely not a paradigm shift.

If the tram link was from Southport, where past developer vandals have severed the rail link to Preston, I would be deeply encouraged.

If the tram link was from Southport, where past developer vandals have severed the rail link to Preston, I would be deeply encouraged.

Remarkable statement, as ever.

For Lancashire coast access, I've often wondered what the viability of a passenger, or even light vehicle hovercraft from Pierhead Liverpool, stopping at say, Formby, Southport, Lytham, Blackpool, Fleetwood, Morecambe, Grange and Barrow might be? It would certainly bypass a lot of road and rail bottlenecks in the (traditional) county.

If the tram link was from Southport, where past developer vandals have severed the rail link to Preston, I would be deeply encouraged.
You cannot sever a route that doesn't exist anymore!!

For Lancashire coast access, I've often wondered what the viability of a passenger, or even light vehicle hovercraft from Pierhead Liverpool, stopping at say, Formby, Southport, Lytham, Blackpool, Fleetwood, Morecambe, Grange and Barrow might be? It would certainly bypass a lot of road and rail bottlenecks in the (traditional) county.
I wonder how well that Ribble Estuary hovercraft did... that could be a good indicator for the feasibility of such a scheme.

There was a rail link to Southport which was closed. It cannot be reopened as developers were allowed to build a housing estate over where it used to run.

Who you regard as the vandals - the government that closed the rail line, the developer that built the housing across the re-openable route, or the council that gave them permission to do this must depend on your point of view - its more obvious which of these entities did best financially out of the loss of our chance to have decent public transport.

The problem remains that to get to Southport by rail means you have to go via Liverpool, which is geographically stupid.

This is exactly why, if they are thinking of building a tram link, one from Southport would not duplicate existing services, and thus be a better use of public money than one from Blackpool, which would actually interfere with existing rail services.

Who you regard as the vandals - the government that closed the rail line, the developer that built the housing across the re-openable route, or the council that gave them permission to do this must depend on your point of view - its more obvious which of these entities did best financially out of the loss of our chance to have decent public transport.
The route could still be reopened, it would just have to run a slightly different route. Its not like anything was wasted. The track was all gone because the bypass was built before the housing estate.

This is exactly why, if they are thinking of building a tram link, one from Southport would not duplicate existing services, and thus be a better use of public money than one from Blackpool, which would actually interfere with existing rail services.
I have to admit, I find it a bit pointless to build a tramway from Preston to Blackpool. I don't see why Preston just cannot have its own should that be the case. A lot more people commute between Blackpool and Preston, and there is a lot more in between. The Preston Southport road is relatively quiet and doesn't have the same problems that the M55 does, or the other A road to Blackpool.

From what I have read so far, the plan would be to create a tram train set up, so once Blackpool's tram line is fully converted to Light Rail by 2014, the new trams would use electricity as standard and then join the Blackpool South railway line which would be doubled (and currently is in a poor state) and use diesal power to create a commuter rail / Light Rail line between Preston, Lytham, the airport, Blackpool and Fleetwood.

The estimated cost from what I've seen is 50Million and the aim is to use EU regeneration money. It does have a slight chance of actually happening as it would connection Preston to Fleetwood which doesn't have a train station.

I'm not quite sure how the platforms would work, I know with the new Light Rail conversion for Blackpool, there will be fewer stops but they would be raised so as to allow wheelchairs and prams.

Preston's city centre rebirth will "move quickly" once it begins, according to the man at the heart of the scheme. Tithebarn Project manager David Parsons said that building work on the £800m redevelopment would press ahead once planning permission is granted and developers have been able to secure agreements from city centre land owners.

The partnership, made up of developers Grosvenor and Lend Lease, expects to submit its masterplan to the city council this summer.

Mr Parsons added that the developers remain "completely committed" to the scheme and that he expected work to start as anticipated by 2010 with an opening in 2014.

He said: "It is not unusual for the preparation to take longer than anticipated.

"Tithebarn is on a 22.5 acre site, so there is a lot of consultation and a lot of agreement required but, when the agreement is in place, we will move very quickly and start getting into the detail of the scale of developments in the city centre."

He admitted that the partnership had been "a bit cloak and dagger", but insisted it was ready to become more public.

The partnership has financed the move of the city's Council for Voluntary Service (CVS) office to the Guild Hall Arcade from the Prince's Buildings on Lancaster Road.

The move opens the way for the partnership to open an information office in the building within "the next couple of months."

...Glad to hear it!!

http://www.lep.co.uk/business/Adjusting-the-vision.3814080.jp
Adjusting the vision

View GalleryCranes on the Preston skyline was the vision which came with the Tithebarn dream a decade ago, and it is one already starting to be realised with a surge of small-scale developments – but have they brought with them a need for change? Business reporter David Coates investigates.
After more than a decade of paper shuffling and private talks in smoke-filled rooms, the Tithebarn rebirth of Preston's city centre has begun.

Do not, however, expect the bulldozers rolling down Ringway towards the architectural icon that is the city's bus station... or registering for your John Lewis loyalty card just yet.

The work which has started can be found on far smaller sites – with far smaller price tags – dotted across the city centre.

Whether it is Lawson Street or Moor Lane, Crystal House or Friargate, the promise that comes with the £800m vision for Tithebarn appears to be finally bearing fruit.

With thousands of residential apartments, retail units and bars either springing up or set to bring across the city, leaders are questioning whether they bring with them the need for change to the Tithebarn masterplan.

Nicholas Watson, joint chief executive of the Preston Chamber of Trade, said he felt the combination of numerous smaller developments had put Tithebarn "into perspective."

"If you listed out the Media Factory, Crystal House, Moor Lane and all the other developments there is, it becomes a significant amount of money.

"I think, if it has not already happened, then the Preston Tithebarn Partnership – of Grosvenor and Lend Lease – will inevitably have to look again at the plans.

"I am sure upon Lend Lease's arrival it wanted a fresh look at the plans to ensure they are getting the return they need from their investment."

It is a view shared by John Chesworth, managing partner of law firm Harrison Drury which has been involved in a number of major development deals in the city.

He believes that people need a clear timescale on when Tithebarn is going to happen if it going to act as the catalyst for development for which it is intended.

"I would not be surprised if it has not broken soil until 2015," he said, "so what is going to happen in the meantime? Are developers going to put everything on the backburner waiting for something to happen or will they just look elsewhere?

"I think what Preston Council needs to do, together with the Tithebarn Partnership, is to work with developers, with local firms, to make sure that it brings change now – and not just in 2015."

Simon Price, a developer which has already cashed in on the coming changes, believes the impact of Tithebarn is far more subtle.

The director of Ice Blue Developments has built 43 two-bedroom flats on Grimshaw Street in the city centre and just finished a major office development in Cottam, on the outskirts of Preston.

"Tithebarn does appear to be stuttering on occasions," he agrees "or at least moving forward far slower than some people would have hoped, but I think the overall benefit of it has been very positive for Preston.

"It has lifted it above the parapet as a city – when you think a company like Carphone Warehouse has come and set up here, employing up to 1,500 staff.

"Out of all the provincal towns and cities in Lancashire, it has picked Preston, and I think there is a real appetite for development here."
That is a view shared by the Preston Tithebarn Partnership which has said it hopes to become "a positive catalyst" for the widerregeneration of the city.

Frank McKenna, chairman of business group Downtown Preston in Business, said he was willing to give the developers until the summer to put its masterplan before council planners.

"When that happens we will be asking serious questions about time scales and deadlines and by the end of this year we will expect to be in that position."

Far from the property boom being over, architect David Robinson, of the Frank Whittle Partnership, which is behind a number of schemes in his home city, believes it could just be set to begin.

"Preston has a lot more going for it than just about any other place in Lancashire," he says.

"It has got the communications, a thriving university and all the potential to house all the things you need for a city.

"I think that the more developments which go on in Preston it will only grow developers confidence in Tithebarn."

Great piece of journalism! :lol:

There was a rail link to Southport which was closed. It cannot be reopened as developers were allowed to build a housing estate over where it used to run.


Where was this, out of interest?

Great piece of journalism! :lol:

Not sure about that lol!

Welcome to the thread david ;)

Where was this, out of interest?

I think he means the newish housing estate at the end of the built section of the Penwortham Bypass (which itself was part of the route). I used to have a paper round on that estate when I was an LEP slaveboy. Up until the last couple of years, the route wasn't actually touched. It was just very closely bounded upon by the houses. The line is currently a cycle path towards Howick Moor Lane until the railway banked off to run parallel to where the A59 is.
The only section of the line which is currently built on by houses is where the recently completed Broad Oak Farm houses are. About 20m of the line is missing. Either way, those houses are the smallest physical obstical to reopening the line. The bypass is a much larger worry!

With both the number 2 stagecoach and its X2 counterpart (from Preston to Liverpool) going to Southport every 30 mins, surely there would be no viable reason to have a tram link? Its only 25 mins to Lord Street from Preston on the X2, comfortable ride, never packed.. not worth a tram link, the money would be far more beneficial to other infrastructure links

^Very true. Both the 2 and X2 services have recently had an improved frequency too. I was shocked. Stagecoach doing something right? Surely not!

If anything, Southport needs its own bus station.

Just found this on last weeks planning applications:

Preston Railway Station
Listed Building Consent for internal and external
alterations/refurbishment work to station building on platforms 3 and 4,
including removal of internal walls, new partition walls, replacement of
internal doors, installation of secondary glazing to existing first floor and
mezzanine windows and provision of externally mounted air conditioning
units at first floor

Looks like Virgin are going the full nine yards this time.

Small report hidden away in yesterday's LEP (The news in brief section on p2 - 6th March 08) says that the George store on Fishergate will close later this year.

I was very, very surprised by this as firstly it was either one of or the trial High Street store and has always seemed busy. Apparantly (and inexplicably) they want to concentrate on "out of town sites!!!"

Is that shop unit jinxed or what?

Found the full text:

George store to shut
Asda is to close its George clothing store in Preston.
It is expected the Fishergate shop will shut within three months. The supermarket giant hopes to transfer affected staff to stores nearby. The company said it will now focus its non-food business on out-of-town stores

Not that suprising about the George store. I imagine the amount of profit that a high street store makes selling low margin clothing is minimal to an organisation like Walmart. I guess they have pulled the plug on the experiment.

The George store in Preston is the last standalone George store. All the others have closed down. I read in Retail Week the other day that George standalones don't benefit from the footfall of ASDA stores.

The one in liverpool is still open?

http://www.lep.co.uk/travel/Timetable-for-supertram-bid-.3855608.jp

Looks as if the tram idea could be progressing......

Timetable for super-tram bid

Trials of revolutionary super-trams which would run between Preston and Blackpool could be up and running in four years time.

A hybrid tram system between the two areas, which would eventually cost around £50m to make a reality, is being put forward by planning expert Sir Peter Hall, who is set to step down as chairman of Blackpool's regeneration company ReBlackpool.

Sir Peter should know by late July or early August whether a bid for millions of pounds of European and North West Development Agency cash to fund trials has been successful.

If the bid is successful the first trials are set to be up and running along Blackpool promenade by 2012, by which time an £85m upgrade of Blackpool's tramways will have taken place.

Interesting how the first trials are in Blackpool. What do you want to bet that the trams to Preston will never happen. 50 million sounds cheap, isnt Liverpools going to cost a couple of hundred million?

Interesting how the first trials are in Blackpool. What do you want to bet that the trams to Preston will never happen. 50 million sounds cheap, isnt Liverpools going to cost a couple of hundred million?

The trial plan has to be in Blackpool as that has the existing tram line. The full plan will be for it to use electricity in blackpool and diesel on the Blackpool south line. They will literally pick the tram / train up and hoist it from the tram line to the train track for the trials.

I guess it's cheap as most of the line is already built, apart from the bit which will connect the existing train line to the tram track (they are not sure if this will be up at the pleasure beach area or Star Gate), although the train line will probably have to be doubled for such a service.

They still haven't answered the question about the platforms on the Blackpool South line to Preston as the new Blackpool Light Rail platforms are all going to be low level so as to assist disabled passangers and prams, where as the railway line ones are high level?

I bet they will get the money for the trial as it won't be coming from the dreaded Department of Transport but I can't see money coming for the actual conversion.

I've given this whole idea some thought and I can see some merit in it. It would be great to have a line which will give people from mainline Preston, direct access to the new Prominard, the Pleasure beach, most of the hotels (one of which I'm hoping to buy sometime this year), the tower, the piers etc, so I now believe there could be a good arguement for it from a Blackpool point of view.

Although I still believe a line from the North Pier up to Blackpool North is equally essential.

Still dont really see the point of extending the line to Preston when there are buses and trains which do the same route

Still dont really see the point of extending the line to Preston when there are buses and trains which do the same route

yes and no.

There is no train service to Fleetwood which this system would create and the one train an hour to Lytham and St Annes service is very poor, so a tram train for four trains per hour would have a big improvement in that area.

I see Preston has some Skyscrapernews coverage with this Church Place scheme, I can't pin point where this development is though? any help.. and do we know a height yet? Or at least the highest floor count?

Cheers for flagging that up ferge. On the subject of the Fox Street hotel, which we now know will be called The Golden Tulip, it took me to this link on the site of the architects:
http://www.harrison-ince.co.uk/projects/leisure/hotels/golden_tulip_1.php

A few unseen renders, no timescale though :(

I see Preston has some Skyscrapernews coverage with this Church Place scheme, I can't pin point where this development is though? any help.. and do we know a height yet? Or at least the highest floor count?
Tark was able to shed a bit more light on the project as he was at a meeting in Manchester where the project was discussed http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=234887&page=81. It looks to be at around 11 storeys in total and will sit opposite the new bus station on Church Street, running from Empire House (Preston's first ever bank) to around Church Row so will be one of the main accesses to Tithebarn area from Church Street. Apparently the developers, Bluemantle, are already in negotiations with Grosvenor and seem keen to work together.

http://www.lep.co.uk/news/Motorists-face-12-months-of.3878853.jp

Motorists face 12 months of misery

Preston faces a year of traffic chaos after rail bosses decided to close the city's railway station car park without finding an alternative for nearly 500 motorists.

Concerns were raised about the prospect of commuters who usually pack into the car park clogging the city's roads in search of somewhere to leave their vehicles.

And the man in charge of policing Preston's roads has revealed he has not been formally contacted about the car park closure.

Passenger groups have warned that the move will drive people away from using the railways and choke the already congested roads around the city centre with even more cars.

Station owners Network Rail said it expects to have engineers on site by May and does not expect to be off site before the same month next year.

Apologies for flooding with stories, but they're quite relevant - honest!

http://www.lep.co.uk/news/City-hotel-sold-before-its.3879397.jp

City hotel sold before it's even built

A multi-million pound hotel which will dominate the Preston skyline has been sold off – before it has even been built.

The nine-storey, 136-bedroom hotel set to be built on Fox Street in the city centre was previously owned by the Golden Tulip hotel group.

It is part of a £44m deal which saw Golden Tulip sell off its UK chain to Premier Inn.

The Evening Post can reveal new images of how the £20m hotel will look when it opens next summer.

Spokesman Rachel Atkinson, of project architects Harrison Ince which produced the images, said the scheme is expected to appoint a contractor to build the glass structure within the next month.

She said: "At the moment we are out to tender with a number of construction firms, and the deadline for submissions closes in a week's time. Then we can get around to appointing someone.

"All the relevant permissions we need in order to get building work under way are in place and we would expect more detailed work to be carried out once that appointment is made."

Due for completion next summer? We should be seeing construction start later this year, then! After Tithebarn, the Fox St site has been the slowest project in the city centre!!

http://www.lep.co.uk/news/Motorists-face-12-months-of.3878853.jp

Motorists face 12 months of misery

Preston faces a year of traffic chaos after rail bosses decided to close the city's railway station car park without finding an alternative for nearly 500 motorists.

Concerns were raised about the prospect of commuters who usually pack into the car park clogging the city's roads in search of somewhere to leave their vehicles.

And the man in charge of policing Preston's roads has revealed he has not been formally contacted about the car park closure.

Passenger groups have warned that the move will drive people away from using the railways and choke the already congested roads around the city centre with even more cars.

Station owners Network Rail said it expects to have engineers on site by May and does not expect to be off site before the same month next year.

This is part of a major overhaul for the train station, the largest it has ever had since being built. They could have made a replacement though. There is a lot of spare land on the other side of the tracks which could have been utilised.

http://www.lep.co.uk/news/Mystery-surrounds-city-development-plan.3892394.jp
Mystery surrounds city development plan

Plans for the transformation of the area around Church Street have been revealed, but full details are unknown

A multi-million pound transformation plan for a run-down part of Preston has been revealed.
Development partnership Ask:Bluemantle, which is behind the Miller Arcade, has aquired a number of properties opposite St John's Minster and plans to undertake a massive redevelopment of the site.

The area borders that earmarked for the £800m Tithebarn project, and already plans for hotels, a library and a new city plaza have been mooted.

Last month the Lancashire Evening Post revealed that 200 flats could also be built on the site of Preston's first ever bank, the TSB building, as part of the Churchgate scheme.

But the Alderley Edge-based venture, which has already held discussions with the city council and Tithebarn developers Grosvenor, is tight-lipped about exactly what is planned.

A spokesman for the development partnership said: "Ask and Bluemantle have formed a partnership and are looking at improving the area. It is very early days and they are still thinking about the masterplan."

Anthony Gill, project developer for Grosvenor, said: "It is something we are aware of and we have been in discussions with them and the council. I have seen various schemes with hotels, residential and the latest is more towards offices and mixed use."

Jim Carr, chief executive at the city council, said: "We can confirm that informal discussions have taken place with a developer about the Churchgate area but for technical reasons we are considering a new marketing process."

Retailers and residents say they are being kept in the dark about a radical overhaul of Church Street which could see the run-down district transformed into a glamorous city plaza.
Drapers Marshalls, housed in a listed building at 29-31 Church Street, has been a household name in the city for over 40 years but today a spokesman said they could face demolition and added: "Nobody is being informed of anything.

"Someone knows what is going on but they keep us in the dark until they finalise things, then they start approaching people."

Tenants in the Places for People apartments in Empire House fear their homes are at risk but a spokesman for the housing association said: "These proposals do not include the redevelopment of Empire House."


Looks like the Bluemantle scheme may run into some problems. Quite how Places for People can say that this doesn't involve Empire House is a little bizzare.

where is 29-31 church street? It is abit odd them saying that empire house will not be affected. So long as they are rehoused and/or compensated i dont see the problem.

i noticed this on the front page of the LEP today in the newsagents n ended up buyin it even though i knew there'd be nowt else in paper worth readin n that i'd hear all about it on here anyway, lol

looks alright, but can't believe (unless i got it wrong) that the newish apartment block is being knocked down to be replaced with new ones, or does this development not go that far down :S not really familiar with that end of town..

Basically, from what I can see and what Tark has told us before, the affected area runs from Empire House (the empty bank next to Reflex) to the street that runs along the very back of the Guild Centre. So it would involve existing buildings that have been there for many years already. None of the newer blocks further down Church Street, where I think ferge is thinking of.

I think we should wait until this is at least semi-finalised before drawing any judgements. Places for People saying that the redevelopment does not include Empire House sounds right, but I'm sure that they don't actually own Empire House! Isn't the housing association block Premier House? I'm sure thats correct. I cant see how this would go ahead without the demolition of Premier House.

Empire House/Premier House was built on the site of the attractive Empire Theatre some time in the late 80's by Preston Council as part of the then moronic "slum clearance scheme" which was well past its sell by date by this point and has blighted Chuch Street with empty plots, inapropriate social housing schemes and derilect buildings for the past thirty years - remember the mess that was Derby Street which was only recently rebuilt after being empty for 15 - 20 years?
Empire House/Premier House includes Tango Joes, the apartments above and the business units in Premier House. The block was built and I believe still owned by Preston Council, but I presume Places for People manage or lease the social housing apartments - which by the way look a whole lot rougher on the inside and are poorly designed.
29 - 31 Church Street is part of the next block which other then Marshalls is currently a row of lowgrade takeaways. The row includes early Victorian buildings and some 70's rebuilds. The scheme to replace Empire/Premier House and the sleazy takeaways I think shows good vision and is quite exciting, although I am less happy with the proposal to demolish most of the former TSB bank, leaving only the front facade - I dont think this aspect will happen in the end as the building is listed Grade 2 * I think

The former bank is not Empire house. It is Tango Joes and the social housing. Premier House is the attached business units/office space

Empire House/Premier House includes Tango Joes, the apartments above and the business units in Premier House. The block was built and I believe still owned by Preston Council, but I presume Places for People manage or lease the social housing apartments - which by the way look a whole lot rougher on the inside and are poorly designed.

I'm told that there are "management issues" with this housing, and PfP wouldn't be averse to a rehousing programme. Then again, I've probably said too much already.
I feel sorry for Marshalls, and I did say I wasn't sure if their premises were included in the Church Place scheme. However, when commercially sensitive negociations are under way, tenants are always the last to know.
I bought a bed from Bargains Galore a bit futher east on Church Street last week. They're closing down because the mass of takeaways that they now find themselves surrounded by are no good for thier trading prospectus.
There is no doubt that several parts of Preston are currently suffering from 'planning blight' due to the Tithebarn scheme, but this will be short term. And a reminder once again to anyone who says "there are plenty of empty shops in Preston; why don't we fill those before building new ones?" They are empty because they are too small for modern trading practise and poorly serviced. They might be OK for a number of independent retaillers, but these alone will not generate the footfall required to support them. AT the end of the day, everyone secretly wants the big, well known names - it's why TopShop is expanding at the moment but they're in one of the few sites that can relatively easily achieve this in a prime location.
A local councillor wrote to my dad the other week asking about an idea he has to allow park & ride style buses to go through the bollards at the SE corner of the Fishergate Centre car park, up Garden Street, round Winckley Square and along Cross Street to the new proposed Bus Station on Manchester Road - all streets that are currently being hit with the same ludicrous traffic calming measures by Civitas that have recently blighted the Uni area. Speed bumps are great for intra-urban buses, aren't they? His reply is very simple - that such a bus route proposal just
reinforces the evidence that the new Bus Station is being built in the wrong location and what Preston, and indeed Lancashire, needs is an integrated transport node based around the railway station.
:bash:

On another note, thank Christ that 25 yr old student from Penwortham's proposals for an Art Quarter built on Winckley Square are nothing more than a final year thesis. I didn't both looking at the quality of the various designs she produced, because from an urban planning point of view it's worth failing her degree from that standpoint alone. It's the worst idea anyone has ever had, apart from the brain dead who want to keep Preston Bus Station, or worse still, knock it down and pile a pillion on this ossa of confusion by replacing it with one far too big on Manchester Road.

I saw thain the lep as well. How the hell did thats get a more positive reception on the front page of the lep than the actual scheme. Its horrendous!!! What sort of idiot would propose building on the square. She refers to the open space of the square as a problem. THATS THE WHOLE POINT OF GREEN SPACE, TO BE OPEN!!! Plus the buildings were abit well, shit.

I agree with Tark. New anchor stores and big investment will mean more footfall, more turnover and less empty units. It is absolutely essential that our "friends" at LCC sort out the road system in and around the town centre which just isn't fit for purpose currently including the situation on Fishergate WHICH IS SOLVABLE.
My suggestion is as follows:
Make Lune Street two way again and prevent traffic entering Fishergate between 09:30 - 17:30. Send St Georges Carpark traffic back down Lune Street to the Ringway.
Block off Fox Street at its junction with Fishergate and re-open its access with Fleet Street/Ringway
Close the top of Winckley Street/ Chapel Street with Fishergate during 09:30 - 17:30 preventing traffic traveling through Winckley Square to access Fishergate Hill/Railways Station etc.
Close Mount Street at its junction with Fishergate, making Mount Street two way again.
Make Corporation Street between Ringway and Fishergate one way except for buses to alleviate the additional pressure on the Ringway and re-model the mess of lights at Ringway with its junction with Corporation Street/Lune Street/Friargate etc.
Make Butler Street Left turn only onto Fishergate Hill.
Improve the Junction of Bow Lane/Fishergate Hill and direct traffic down Bow Lane to access the Ringway.

All the above is workable and will allow Fishergate to be pedestrianised. Lets face it how many major shopping streets in large conurbations are still fully accessible to traffic.

I think the above would have much provide much more in terms of pedestrain/enviromental benefits than installing speed bumps on a trunk roads such as Fylde Road as part of the CIViTAS scheme

Any improvments like what you suggest would take forever to impliment due to the 'need' of "feasability studies" and what not. Isnt teh official pedestrianisation of Fisergate years off?

:) Overall, good news. However, looking at the plans for the Queen's retail park I uploaded over the weekend, I'm worried that this is going to be too imposing as it is going to destroy a LOT of the pedestrian flow with vehicle access. I just hope it is sensitively included rather than being a huge slab of concrete on the border of the other development. I think it needs a few more features adding to the main tower as well to add something a bit more unique to the overall design.
Anyway, I also noticed something going on down Marsh Lane which could be the new 7 storey hotel.

where can i view the plans for the various preston planning applications?

http://www.preston.gov.uk/whatsnew/

Planning applications are published on a weekly basis, usually on a Friday

http://www.preston.gov.uk/whatsnew/

Planning applications are published on a weekly basis, usually on a Friday
thanks, i can see this is a short description of the application. where can i view the full application, and architects plans?
does preston_guy upload plans to this website somewhere?

Hi & welcome to the thread. I try to upload what I can but it's not always easy to find plans as developers treat them as if they're top secret but if you search for the developer who has submitted the planning application and take it from there you will hopefully find something of interest.

all streets that are currently being hit with the same ludicrous traffic calming measures by Civitas that have recently blighted the Uni area.

The CIVITAS work in the uni area is awful. Its half a job.

Interesting.
Full story here:
http://www.lep.co.uk/news/Tesco-to-return-to-city.3918778.jp

So Tithebarn's not expected for another seven years now? It just gets worse!

There was also an article about resubmission of plans for a student village on that former printer site on Fylde Road. I hope this one gets the nod as it currently looks miserable and empty.

Interesting Tithebarn feasability document can be found using the following link

http://www.preston.gov.uk/Documents/General/Planning/TRA%20Baseline%20Retail%20Capacity%20Study%20Jan.08.pdf

Updated (and altered) plans for the former Goss site have been re-submitted:

Mixed use development (following demolition of existing Goss Graphic Systems Ltd buildings) comprising Class C3 residential (208no. apartment units over 4 storeys, 87no. family housing units over 2/3 storeys) and 370no. student accommodation rooms within 2no. four storey blocks, including 873 sq m commercial floor space within Classes A1, A2, A3, A4 and A5 at ground floor of Block 2 with new vehicular accesses off Greenbank Street and associated car parking and landscaping (following closure of existing access onto Fylde Road)

On 24 April, Mike Brogan will be talking about the Tithebarn and other future development projects in Preston at St George's Church, just off Lune Street. It's a 7.30 for 8.00 pm start and costs £10, which includes a buffet supper after the talk. You do not have to be a member or an architect to go to NLSA lectures. You can have a glass of wine or beer during the lecture - it's quite odd to do this in a church but rather fun! If you've never been in St George's, it's well worth a visit

For more information, please contact John Gravell: john@gravell7738.freeserve.co.uk (john@gravell7738.freeserve.co.uk) or tel: 01772 627346

Might be a good opportunity for a Skyscraper City Forum users get together, over dinks in The Angel after the nosh. Anyone fancy it? I wonder if Riversider would like to come and put the rest of us to rights?

Well, spring is officially here and the start of the more impressive planning applications have started. First off is a 6-13 storey building on the Staples site although it STILL includes plans for a hotel, despite one being built directly across the road:
Erection of mixed use development comprising offices (Class B1, 27,605 sq m), hotel containing 192 bedrooms with conference facilities, and basement car park (133 spaces) (6-13 storey building)

And a planning application has been submitted for the 'Tithebarn Shop' at 50-52 Lancaster Road. This will most likely be approved quite quickly.
Use of premises as centre for the Preston Tithebarn Partnership (office within Class A2) including exhibition space

Sounds good! Although I was thinking of applying for a job at Staples!

6 to THIRTEEN storeys?! I thought when they had that first (and dull) proposal of brick and lime green glass for that site that we woud only achieve around 5 stories for that site..

13 would be a superb height with the other developments nearish to it.. and next to the ringroad will give a great city feel.

City centre transformation on the cards
By Nazia Parveen
Comment

M&S PRESTON: Multi-million pound facelift planned
Preston's High Street is set to be transformed over the next year.

Changes include a multi-million facelift for Marks and Spencers, a new Tesco Express store, the opening of the newly refurbished Topshop and the closure of the Asda George.

The changes have been welcomed by the Chamber of Trade's Nicolas Watson.

He said:"We are seeing some exciting and dramatic changes which is normal for any city environment.

"The news about Marks and Spencer is excellent and it reconfirms their commitment in the city."

The refurbishment of M&S starts in May and includes a complete remodel.

advertisement
An M&S spokesman said: "The investment cements our place on the high street in Preston and reinforces our commitment to the city.

"The investment will give a modern new look to our store and cafe area and bring about some of the changes our customers have been asking for."

Manager Ken Williams, of The Mall St George's shopping centre which has a major entrance into the store, said: "It is fantastic news about both M&S and Tesco and it is very encouraging that they have decided to commit so much investment within our city making it even better for the public and visitors."

Meanwhile, Supermarket giants Tesco announced that they are to return to the city centre - seven years after they left.

A Tesco Express store is to open at an empty unit in Church Street by the summer, creating more than 20 jobs.

The chain had previously had a store in Fishergate in the unit now occupied by George Asda but closed it in 2001 saying that it had become unviable due to a lack of shoppers.

Another major change in the high street is the decision taken by Asda to close its George clothing outlet in a matter of months.

The company are looking to open a new out-of-town Living store, however a site has yet to be identified.

Despite welcoming investment, Mr Watson, expressed some concerns about the effect a Tesco store may have on smaller retailers.

He said: "The departure of George is very sad and I'm not sure about the logic of Tesco moving back into the city centre as it could have an adverse affect on other grocery retailers.

"Also, the retail footprint within the city is diminishing on a broader scale, with the closures of the Moben kitchen store on Cheapside and Bambers cheese shop on Orchard street in recent months and we need to makesure that we are attracting businesses rather than losing them."

Other developments include, the reopening of the Topshop store at the top of Fishergate in July and the opening of a Peacocks store in St George's shopping centre in May.

http://www.lep.co.uk/news/City-70m-hotel-unveiled.3951527.jp

City £70m hotel unveiled

Plans have been unveiled for a hotel and office block set to become Preston's tallest city centre building.
Towering up to 13 storeys and 154ft high, the £70m development will greet visitors to the city on the corner of Ring Way and Corporation Street.

The 192-bedroomed, four star hotel will boast conference facilities, and will be flanked by two blocks of offices.

An international chain is expected to take over the hotel if the project wins planning permission.

Developers hope to start work on the site by the end of the year with current occupiers – Staples, Maplin Electronics and Sleepmasters – given six months to move out.

Roger Parker, from Parker and Company, agents for the developers, said: "It's a very impressive scheme and an awesome design. It's going to make a dramatic improvement to an important gateway site.

"It will undoubtedly impress visitors to Preston as they get off the train and will act as a catalyst for further development over the next few years.

"It is now essential government policy to restrict out of town offices with the objective of encouraging demand for new office space in city centres."

Mr Parker said the application is a "bigger and better" bid to develop the site after outline plans for 130 hotel rooms and a nine-storey office block were passed last year.

New site owner, Northern Ireland construction group McAleer and Rushe Group, hope the 27,605 sq metres of office and hotel space will house just over 1,000 workers.

Parking for 133 cars will be available in the basement.

It is hoped the development will be complete by 2010.

Sean Drake, manager of Sleepmasters, said the business, which employs two people, would be staying in Preston, possibly at a retail park.

He said: "We already have some other alternative sites in mind. It's a bonus in a way because we'll be moving to a much bigger premises."

The development would be on the edge of a site earmarked as a Central Business District (CBD) on Friargate.

Coun Ken Hudson, leader of the council, said: "I've not seen the detailed plans but the concept of offices and a hotel gives you a feel of a business district and, provided the quality of the building is good, it will be an iconic site."

Nicholas Watson, chief executive of the Preston and District Chamber of Trade, said: "My only hope is that the architecture of the building is good. Preston is littered with buildings which look sad and tired."

Preston Council's planning committee will debate the application in the next few weeks.

Anyone any idea what it looks like?
The NLSA lecture looks good Tark, I will look into getting along to that one

I briefly walked past the LEP stand in the Penwortham Sainsbury's. The design looks very different to the old one we saw. Very very overbearing. I wonder if this really is gonna be the tallest in the city centre. Even if its the office section at 13-storeys, we have the Guild Centre offices at 16-storeys, the two Avenham towers at 19-storeys, and possibly the Linen Buildings at 18-storeys.

I haven't seen the design of the new tower yet but I have to admit, I would rather Wood Associates didn't design it. Their designs all seem to look the same, which usually aren't very good! Apart from the dead-in-the-water Royal Locks. Something like this scheme in Belfast would be a more appropriate design in my opinion (albeit scaled down and not quite so bulky): http://www.skyscrapernews.com/imagesall.php?ref=1456&idi=Robinson+Patterson+See+The+Bigger+Picture&self=nse&no=1&selfidi=1456RobinsonPattersonSeeTheBiggerPicture_pic1.jpg

Unfortunately not. The red cladding element is still very much present.

I have bought a copy of the LEP. I'll scan the images at some point this evening.

C'mon then give us some scans, lol... eager to see what this one will look like.

46m is hardly the tallest in the city mind is it?

C'mon then give us some scans, lol... eager to see what this one will look like.

46m is hardly the tallest in the city mind is it?
Tallest this Millennium then? We should have a sweepstake on the year that someone builds higher than Hansom's St. Walburge's spire in our borough.

ill go for that one. i bet 2021 :P(how tall is walburges?)
proposed building isnt anything special. certainly better than that guild legacy crap. should make quite an impact on the ringway which is a good thing.

Given whats going on with Faisaltex, I wouldn't worry too much about the Guild Legacy building lol.
St Walburges is 95m. I doubt we will see anything proposed in Preston that high until after 2012.
Sorry about the delay on the scans. I've been pretty busy. I'll have them up tomorrow morning.

Scaffold going up at Lowthian House. A lot of heavy machinery on site as well.

ooo really? whats going on? they finally going to do somethin with it? hope if they are its different to marshall house, its my favourite highrise in preston. thought it was being done as part of tithebarn? anyone get any pics? not back in preston till may :(

Had a quick look at the planning register and found this for Lowthian House:
External alterations including installation of new entrance and canopy to front elevation (following demolition of existing entrance)
The Kenmore Group who own it have done some quite successful re-furbs so this could be a good job they're doing on Lowthian House.

was excited then thinking it was going to be something major. but there just doing the entrance, again.

was excited then thinking it was going to be something major. but there just doing the entrance, again.

Well... this is Preston!

Yet another planning application for Avenham Street car park!
Mixed use development (between six and nine storeys in height) comprising 15no. Class A1 (retail) / A2 (financial and professional services) / A3 (restaurant/cafe) units (3,833 sq m), 313no. apartments, refuse management area, access and highway alterations, with associated car parking, delivery/loading area and landscaping.
Also this was submitted, which I assume is in addition for the plans that are already approved to include a larger area:
Erection of 3-7 storey building to contain Class A1 retail on ground floor and 33no. student flats (176no. beds) (outline application)

does anyone know where there are any sources on the bus stations structure and the failings of it? doing coursework at the moment and it would be handy.

A shopping mall with a huge block of apartments is planned as part of a multi-million pound revamp of a city centre car park. Local developer Salya Homes has drawn up plans for the nine-storey building on the Avenham Street car park.

It is hoped the development will attract high street shops, restaurants and banks to the area.

It would see 102 two-bedroom apartments and 211 one-bedroom apartments on top of 13 shops centred around a raised central mall to create a "stepped entrance" into the building.

But 600 car parking spaces would be lost – stretching Preston's already clogged parking to the limit.

It comes in the wake of angry residents in Avenham telling the Evening Post how commuters were already parking outside their homes due to a lack of city space.

Salya managing director Yasin Vaza said the development on the edge of the proposed £700m Tithebarn regeneration area would "reflect the vibrant image" of the city centre.

He said: "This will be a landmark building, which we hope will add to the desirability of city living in Preston and will most certainly enhance the skyline of Preston."

Salya, which has its head office in Walton-le-Dale, near Preston, has bought the car park site from Jersey-based developers Sligo Properties.
Sligo's previous plans for a 13-storey tower on the site were slammed as "a monolithic slab" by planners.

Preston Chamber of Trade chief executive Nicholas Watson said the development would bring "a much-needed lift" to the Avenham area, but added the loss of 600 city centre parking spaces would be a blow.

Town centre Coun Michael Lavalette said the development promised to bring "investment and diversity" to the Avenham area.

Maybe I'm missing something, but a loss of 600 parking spaces? Where did they all come from? Maybe they meant 60?!!

lep on the ball as ever.
theres the avenham multistory next to it which is never full. so i dont see the problem

Agreed, the benefits of this far outweigh the cons. However, there is going to be a parking shortage if multiple car parks around town are closed without being replaced.

does anyone know where there are any sources on the bus stations structure and the failings of it? doing coursework at the moment and it would be handy.

I can't really remember seeing anywhere with negative press apart from on here! Even The Guardian praises it, but these sources usually do comment on how oversized it is but really like its brutalist look. You've probably seen them but if you Google Preston Bus Station (I don't mean to insult your intelligence!) something will turn up. Have you seen this: http://www.oube.co.uk/place_map/place.php?id=5

isnt it something along the lines of that the cantilevers are to heavy/falling off or something? sure i read that one some where. not seen that one. thanks for the info :)

i think some how the beast has changed my mind about it...

I think I heard that, too... something about they are starting to crumble or something. Probably just made it to justify blowing it up! Speaking of which, we should start seeing planning applications being submitted over the summer. I think we will start seeing more progress now Lend Lease is on board as well, they won't want to mess about. They should go all out to get it done for the Guild!!!

i do like the building but i wish they would just get rid of it already. i hope they start at the market end first, though seen as john lewis is going where the bus station is i can see that being the starting point. cant wait to see detailed planning applications :P hope they "accidentally" blow up the uni centre

I personally don't mind the Unicentre. I dislike the Guild Centre and Preston Office Centre a lot more.

Couldnt agree more with the office centre. Quite like the Guild Centre, it has some scale to it and it is quite visable on the skyline, hopefully with it gone they can do something with the public realm around the Guild Hall. hope we get something of scale to replace it. Hate the big concrete lumps at the top of the uni centre.

Has anyone got an image of the new building for the Staples site? I didn't manage to get hold of a copy of the LEP!

ermmmmmmmmmmm......... i think my copy got put in the blue bag

i have a copy i think. will have to wait till im back in preston im afraid. Any news on when the fox street hotel might start?

just out of curiosity does anyone have any diagrams for the other schemes for Winkley Square?
Pa's been up to review these again today at Lancastria House, but I doubt they're open to the public. He got annoyed that the idea that the judging panel was unanimous, which it wasn't, was thought to be true. And it's up for review by the powers that be this week; and he likes to make sure of his facts before commenting.
Interestingly, he's changed his mind about the best submission - it wasn't, in his opinion, the one he voted for on judgement day. But it also certainly wasn't the one that's been given the job and splurged all over the LEP, which, again in his opinion, did not in any way answer the brief that had been given to the entrants. He wouldn't tell me anything about judgement day as he came out of it so depressed, realising that his views seem so different to everyone else's, and further review today has only confirmed his opinion that the selected scheme is totally inappropriate for the site and its needs.
But this experience only confirms a old addage, that if a committee is formed to design a racehorse, the result is usually a camel.
One day, I'll get in big shit for saying too much on here and my lack of indiscretion, but then again, one should not be afraid of putting the truth into the public realm.

Local developer Salya Homes
Could anyone please point out to me what this company has actually built in Preston? Their website is a triumph of style over any substance at all!

Could anyone please point out to me what this company has actually built in Preston? Their website is a triumph of style over any substance at all!

They are carrying out the redevelopment of Sharoe Green. When they started that development, they moved their head office from Blackburn to Preston.


I got a phone call today from Countryside Properties asking about my interest in the Linen Buildings. Maybe things are going to kick off soon.

With the Winkley Square scheme i think it should have been a public consultation seen as it is afterall a public square.

I forgot about the linen buildings. The renders never really showed how they fit in with the area. Some plans they looked really big, some small

you planning on buying one:nuts:

With the Winkley Square scheme i think it should have been a public consultation seen as it is afterall a public square.

I forgot about the linen buildings. The renders never really showed how they fit in with the area. Some plans they looked really big, some small

you planning on buying one:nuts:

I'm currently at university in the process of racking up £9,000 of debt. Yep, I'm defo gonna buy one!

Speaking of university, I've just been to UCLAN to take a few pics for my course. I thought that whilst I was there I may as well head to to the top of the uni's taller buildings and get some fresh shots (which we haven't had on this forum in a while!)

From Brook building:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/Accura/DSC01296.jpg?t=1208285548

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/Accura/DSC01295.jpg?t=1208285766

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/Accura/DSC01294.jpg?t=1208285814

You can see on this one the new halls on Moor Lane emerging and how crap they look
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/Accura/DSC01292.jpg?t=1208285874

From Greenbank
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/Accura/DSC01291.jpg?t=1208285938

From the Media Factory
Looking towards Penwortham
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/Accura/DSC01289.jpg?t=1208285980

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/Accura/DSC01288.jpg?t=1208286035

A sad image. One piece of abandoned infrastructure running over another. The railway line is the Longridge line on the Miley tunnel approach. The watercourse is the only bit of the city centre stretch of the Lancaster canal which still survives. I really hope that Marina plan happens.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/Accura/DSC01287.jpg?t=1208286073

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/Accura/DSC01286.jpg?t=1208286233

Again, look how crap those new halls are
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/Accura/DSC01283.jpg?t=1208286272

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/Accura/DSC01282.jpg?t=1208286315

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/Accura/DSC01281.jpg?t=1208286362

:)

Great pics :) I see you took pics from the Media Factory, has a great interior doesnt it, uclan tried something different with that one which is always a good sign. Just a shame that externally it looks nothing like it did in the renders. Ever been through miley tunnel, its great! Theres abit about half way through, im assuming its where Moor Lane is where the tunnel compeletly opens up and you have a massive concrete roof, certainly a wow moment.

What course are you doing? The debt surely is a bitch isnt it.

The rebirth of Preston city centre will not be hit by the multi-million pound losses of the development giant behind it, according to a top boss. Mark Preston, the Britain and Ireland chief executive of Grosvenor, said the £48.8m losses the group has felt as part of its £1bn Liverpool One shopping centre development were driven by the rocky commercial property market.

He said that the group's financial muscle allowed it to "cope" with the fluctuations enabling it to press ahead with its part in the £700m Tithebarn scheme to regenerate Preston city centre – but warned they would not be immune to growing economic pressures.

Mr Preston, who takes over as group chief executive in July, said: "Nothing to do with what is happening in Liverpool makes any difference to Preston, indeed we have made some great strides with Preston in recent months.

"We have signed up John Lewis to the scheme, agreed a joint venture with Lend Lease and are anticipating putting in a planning application this summer, so our commitment to Preston remains as strong as ever."

:nuts:

First it was electric cars on the Flag Market, then trams around the docks – now it is a monorail.
The city council's chief executive Jim Carr believes a monorail could be the answer to clearing traffic congestion when the £700m Tithebarn regeneration project becomes reality.

Although the UK's only current monorails are at Chester Zoo, Alton Towers and Blackpool Pleasure Beach, the city chief insists this is no gimmick.

He has seen such a scheme work around the Darwin Harbour in Sydney and believes Preston needs to think big to achieve its goals.

Mr Carr said: "Successful cities are trying new ideas and we need to think innovatively about transportation in Preston. We need to be looking long-term and not be limited by what we can do immediately.

"A monorail works in Sydney and runs around the harbour and through the main shopping areas.

"I do not know what the good people of Preston would think about the idea, but I feel these are the sorts of things we should be doing, we should be ambitious and inspirational.

"Big plans bring big investment."

He said that legal agreements with developers the Preston Tithebarn Partnership would pay to solve traffic issues brought about by the development, although this is likely to be limited to the junctions with Ringway affected by the changes.

There will also be cash available through European funding from the Civitas scheme – which aims to promote the use of public transport – and the North West Development Agency.

Chief executive Nicholas Watson, of the Preston Chamber of Trade, said a scheme such as a monorail would be needed when Tithebarn arrives.

The multi-million pound Tithebarn Regeneration scheme is scheduled to be completed by 2014.

He said: "It might sound like madness but there is an element of reality in that Preston's shopping area is going to become so big and long that something like this might have to be considered.

"It is something which is innovative and which will allow the free flow of traffic of people into the city to maximise their shopping experience."




This guy actually gets paid??? Trams are a sensible idea, i could see a tram system in Preston. Circle around the City Centre via Tithebarn, Fishergate, University with lines going off to Leyland/Chorley/Park and Ride. But a bloody monorail ?!?!?! Does he have any idea of the cost as well as the permamant presence the track would have on the street scape, imagine a monorail track going down Fishergate! As well as the amount of land each station would take up as each station would have to have lifts etc. Guys an idiot. I think we have more chance of the UK's next supertall getting built in Preston than this ever happening.

I haven't even read the article, it's so ridiculous I refuse to waste minutes doing it! I mean no disrespect in saying this, but Preston SERIOUSLY needs younger people in the Council to move Preston forward as it is becoming very clear that the older members seem to have some crazy sh*t goin' on in their heads to come up with all this crap.

Monorails are ugly, very expensive (way more than light rail), inflexible, unreliable and completely unrealistic for Preston. Lets have some sensible ideas please.

Atleast if they did a monorail (which they never will) Ringway would be replaced as prestons biggest mistake/eyesore. Would it kill them to suggest something plausable which might actually get support and funding. Whats next, ski lifts?

He has seen such a scheme work around the Darwin Harbour in Sydney and believes Preston needs to think big to achieve its goals.
That's Darling Habour, of course, if you want to look it up. Probably the LEP's fault. The 20 odd year old Sydney Monorail, was over priced, late, too short, ruined the streetscape and has been a renown butt of jokes since opening.
A "ski" lift from the top of Penwortham Hill to the railway station however, has a lot of merits.

Ski lifts at the Lisbon expo:
http://www.marionkaplan.com/lib/mkptc122.jpg

Render in todays LEP of Salya's apartment and shopping centre plans for Avenham:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/Accura/DSC01297.jpg?t=1208877959

Boring squat lump?

I prefer the old 13-storey designs. This isn't much different except they have taken away all the decent design features and lopped a few storeys off the top, turning into a very bog standard building.

Those south facing balconies will be like the Hanging Gardens of Drabylon in no time...

Full story Here:


http://www.lep.co.uk/news/New-images-show-car-park.4005586.jp

http://editorial.jpress.co.uk/web/Upload/PRES//TH1_22420089Avenham%20St_Cam7%20showing%20wal.jpg
The new plans for Avenham Street car park

Shopping Mall?? Its hardily the centre of retail is it so no doubt they would be left empty, especially once tithebarn gets going. Can tell its aload of crap, they call them "luxury flats"

With the retail units, I could see a convenience store there like a Spar or something, but not much else to be honest. Footfall is very low in that part of town.

Still marginally better than a flat carpark

It would be a lot better if they demolished those grey council blocks.

It would be a lot better if they demolished those grey council blocks.

Eek! I've just bought one of those flats! - I presume you mean Sandown Court, as it is now known. Been in private ownership since 1981, though built by the council - my dad was the architect in 1963! They need a good clean (3 shades of grey, all using natural aggregates) and a unified policy to windows on the balconies, and we have ideas for adding new penthouses to the flat roofs (see "The Way Ahead" posts from 18 months ago). I'm biased, of course, but I can't think of any better massed high rise council housing of that period in the country, and they are the tallest habitable buildings in Preston.

its such a pity that a city that can have the museum and surrounding open area and buildings, along with winkley square and the park, river etc can still look so souless and dull in those views.. the place has so much potential!! even the crystal house development from that distance still looks like a 60's nightmare.. there is no colour, no freshness in any of the shots, the city is only looking worse as it fails to get anything going, 3rd city?!....

A chance for you all to give your views on everyone's favourite Preston-based £700m city centre regeneration programme!

Here: http://www2.prestontoday.net/tithebarn_survey/lep___tithebarn_regeneration.htm

Is the Ringway Tower (http://skyscrapernews.com/buildings.php?id=2259) ever going to happen because I havent heard anything about it recently.

The LEP has recently been reporting that a couple of new homeless shelters have been given £2 million to complete them. The ifrst one is the Recycling Lives HQ (pictured) on Kent street and another one on Fox Street. From the looks of them, they'll only be about three storeys tall though.
http://editorial.jpress.co.uk/web/Upload/PRES//TH1_15200836LEP%20Recycling%203.jpg
Other than bashing the tithebarn project through a survey, theres not much else being reported.

In terms of transport developments, the only major thing is a 21 mile cycle route to go around the city.

As for my home town, Longridge's new care home (built on the site of an old one, which was demolished for no apparent reason) is near completion and the council are still rejecting my plans for a 1.6km skyscraper to be built on the site of the Civic Hall, which is being extended to make way for more storage at the expense of some of the (rather vast) car-park.
http://img391.imageshack.us/img391/7851/longridgecivichallup4.jpg
Longridge Civic Hall, which Still Isnt Being Demolished

The Ringway Tower was abandoned and was replaced by plans for a more impressive (in my opinion) network of shopping streets with bars etc covering the entire site however, the Linen Buildings contraindicated the plans and the developers have since dropped their plans.
The LEP are a strange bunch. They love to slag off regeneration in Preston (i.e. Tithebarn) but are more than happy to make a front page spread when a new development is announced. But on the bright side, planning applications for Tithebarn are due to be submitted this year.
Also, there's an article in todays LEP showing the changes to be made to Lowthian House. Can't say I'm much impressed though, they ought to wait and leave it to BDP as the tower lies within the Tithebarn Regeneration Area.

The Preston Tithebarn Partnership joint venture will publish proposals for the long-awaited, £700m retail project later this month.

Taken from www.placenorthwest.co.uk, published yesterday

Is the Ringway Tower (http://skyscrapernews.com/buildings.php?id=2259) ever going to happen because I havent heard anything about it recently.

The LEP has recently been reporting that a couple of new homeless shelters have been given £2 million to complete them. The ifrst one is the Recycling Lives HQ (pictured) on Kent street and another one on Fox Street. From the looks of them, they'll only be about three storeys tall though.
http://editorial.jpress.co.uk/web/Upload/PRES//TH1_15200836LEP%20Recycling%203.jpg
Other than bashing the tithebarn project through a survey, theres not much else being reported.

In terms of transport developments, the only major thing is a 21 mile cycle route to go around the city.

As for my home town, Longridge's new care home (built on the site of an old one, which was demolished for no apparent reason) is near completion and the council are still rejecting my plans for a 1.6km skyscraper to be built on the site of the Civic Hall, which is being extended to make way for more storage at the expense of some of the (rather vast) car-park.
http://img391.imageshack.us/img391/7851/longridgecivichallup4.jpg
Longridge Civic Hall, which Still Isnt Being Demolished
Do they still have the market there every thursday?

I do like the new look of lowthian house, but I just wonder whether there's much point to it. If the building has been largely empty, surely the owners should concentrate on filling it up before they start recladding it, and what's with the lime green bit at the bottom?
So when will the tithebarn project actually get sarted, or is that going to be one of the things announced in theproposal next month? I hope they can get started soon, its been a while. I also hope they can demolish the bus station (although chance may prove to be a fine thing).

One thing I'm slightly annoyed about is that there doesnt seem to be much information actually made available about the developments in preston, even through the Evening Post and The Citizen.

@accura: yes the market is still on every thursday in the civic hall, but its a very, very poor excuse for a market. Its only got about 3 stalls and nobody really goes any more. There's also a car-boot sale which is on every sunday, although it hasnt been advertised for a while.

Todays Citizen has reported that the Hemmings Mill, currently housing Preston Antiques Centre is to be converted into 45 new apartments, of which 9 will be "affordable", whatever that entails.

Source: http://prestoncitizen.co.uk

Affordable housing (to my knowledge) means that those 9 flats will need to be priced lower than the rest. The price varies depending on the development and location. The LEP said the affordable houses (flats) planned as part of the Fox Street building will be around £105,000 - not bad for city centre!
As for Tithebarn, we are told work will start in 2010. Kind of sad considering that by the original timescale, work should have been finished over a year ago! It still worries me that Jim Carr recently said [speaking of the second anchor store due to sign up within the next few months, believed to be M&S], "plans are at an exciting stage and we are more certain than ever that Tithebarn will happen". It' doesn't give us confidence when the city 'leaders' aren't so sure themselves!! I'm looking forward to seeing the plans though. Let's hope they are worth the wait.

new Lowthian looks bollocks, "lets clad the main body in cheap plastic to attract tennants. job done" waste of money and aload of crap. guessing this buildings is going to go through many many refurbs till eventually someone gets it right! And whet the hell is with the lime bottom with stupid holes in it???? Design feature my arse!

It needs to be demolished. Although its aesthetically revolting, the way it fits into the urban fabric is what makes it most worse. Along with the indoor market and car park, it blights just about everywhere around it.

I agree. It would be nicer to replace it a corridor of midrises (4-6 storeys perhaps with office/bar/restaurant and retail use) that link the market area with Ringway, that would help a long way with the severing effect the ring road has on that area. See my paint-doctored post from 2006 on page 45! http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=234887&page=45

I tend to agree that a few midrises would probably be better, more attractive and probably easier to fill, but it all depends on whether Lowthian looks any better when its finished (doubtful, but there is still a chance).

I think there are quite a few buildings in Preston that want demolishing and replacing with newer buildings (the bus station especially, but hopefully Tithebarn will take care of that).

Since I last posted there's been further and further delays to Tithebarn, extending the planning blight afflicting Preston for at least another 7 years. Perhaps the credit crunch will make us end up waiting even longer. (of course Grovesnor/Lend Lease have all the time in the world seeing as they have been handed the lease for 250 years)

Also rather sinister news that the public streets turned over to Grosvenor/Lend Lease will become privatised and public right of way and rights to assemble abolished.

Rather crackpot suggestions for a monorail from powerpoint-befuddled council officials - if it ever did happen, it would need a decent terminal, of course Preston Bus Station is it currently stands is about the only place that would have the capacity. Downgrading our bus station would mean a massive loss of potential public transport capacity that might accomodate more sensible much-needed public transport ideas in the future.

By the time Tithebarn gets underway the current economic crisis should hopefully be over. What planning blight, what has actually been stopped due to tithebarn. Im sure that they havnt been handed the lease, money and contracts will have exchanged hands. no doubt stating that Grosvenor/Lend Lease cannot just sit on the land. Plus i didnt know that they owned the area yet? Where do you get your information from or is it just your usual speculation?

You do realise that as it stands the bus station, st johns and the guild hall are private land so you cant exactly assemble there anyway. If Grosvenor employing there own security team means that the scum of Preston will be kept out of the area then i am all for it. Call it social cleansing or whatever, people who go into the city centre dont deserve to be there. Fact. Also look on the bright side, if they are highering security then i assum there will be cleaners as well :) There are a good few years between Liverpool being finished and Preston starting so we will just see how it goes.

As for the monorail that guy deserves to be sacked. Complete rubbish idea. why not lobby for trams, something which would actually benefit Preston opposed to pie in the sky ideas which will come to nothing. The bus station being used as an interchange is an interesting idea, create a new use for the taxi rank. However the fact remains that the bus station is way t big and it takes up to much space. The only way i would agree to the bus station remaining if ifthe building was used for something else and the area around it build on to intergrate it into the street fabric.

Lots of complaints in Saturday's post about the planning blight that is now even spreading out to Fishergate.

If I were to be very cynical indeed, I'd think that Tithebarn would not be worried in the slightest about the damage thats happening to their future competitors.

The right to assemble is important - especially in Preston where the Chartist Mill Workers were shot dead for doing exactly that - assembling. Anyone working in a store in the Tithebarn area who went out on strike would find themselves unable to picket at their own workplace - a huge incursion into worker's rights.

How is the HSBC moving there bank further down Fishergate away from the Tithebarn area planning blight? Preston has a retail centre has no more room for expansion, it needs a major development so that retail can expand. Sure there might be afew small shops being shut but when has Preston ever been fully let?

The right to assemble hasnt been gotten rid of. You can still do it but it would have to do it outside the area. Look at the benefits instead of always the negatives. If the bus station worked went on strike they would have to do it off the premises as would any workers from St Georges. This is no different.

It is different because currently those workers could assemble on the public streets and footpaths that give access to their workplaces, under the new arrangements, even the streets are privatised.

It is different because currently those workers could assemble on the public streets and footpaths that give access to their workplaces, under the new arrangements, even the streets are privatised.
Well one big difference is that at the very least the public will have 24/7 access to the public realm spaces between the buildings, even if (and I think this is a very bad thing) the land does get signed over to the developers.
When St Georges was built c1963 it redeveloped a lot scratty run-down rat infested back lands. Anyone could walk through the streets and alleyways it replaced, and this ethos was maintained in the open malls that were created to get from where they were to the places they wanted to get to. It wasn't brilliant, but it did (for the time) quite cleverly address the level changes between the entrances on Lune St, Fishergate and Friargate. The really criminal activity took place when the centre was "renewed" by L&G in 1983 when a shockingly bad solid roof was placed over the malls, and this, in conjunction with the land owner happening to own both sides of the malls, gave them the excuse (to which the Council disgracefully complied) to put lockable doors on those three accesses. Hence from 6pm to 8am, several acres of OUR town was locked off from its citizens, and this remains the situation today in St George's. So if, one summer's evening, you have taken some money out at Barclays Bank on Fishergate and want to walk to have a pint at the Black Horse on Friargate, a massive detour via The Assembley on Fleet St or Anne Summers on Cheapside is required.
This major change in out of retail hours movement around our town/city was an outrage (particularly before the Sunday trading laws were changed) but I don't recall a single letter of complaint to the LEP about it from the time.
But then again, it had precedent: some 15 years beforehand 7 acres of the town centre had been annexed to build a parking lot for buses with an inaccessible bus station (in the wrong place anyway) in the middle of it.

I can't see privately owned streets being a bad thing. For one thing, the security guards would keep the trouble makers away (which, by the way, the police dont seem to be able to do) and also I can't see the company that owns them (Grosvenor?) restricting access to them, except maybe very late at night, because nobody would be able to access the shops. This would cause the companies occupying them to lose money, meaning that the company that owns the streets and buildings might lose tennants, and money.
As for right of assembly, I dont give a shit. I look down on those who choose to go on strike, as they'll be doing it over pay, work conditions or holidays. In short - greed.

When was the last time you saw workers in a shop going on strike? Never because if they did they would just be replaced. If they go along the similar lines to Liverpool there will be no visable barrier i.e. gates into the development. And if this spreads crime to areas then that is an issue for the police to deal with.

When was the last time you saw workers in a shop going on strike? Never because if they did they would just be replaced. If they go along the similar lines to Liverpool there will be no visable barrier i.e. gates into the development. And if this spreads crime to areas then that is an issue for the police to deal with.

Precisely. Retail sales assistants cannot go on strike because its perceived as unskilled labour, and like you said they would just be sacked and replaced. Retail sales assistants are fully aware of the conditions under which they will be working when they are awarded their contract. And if the company proposes contractual changes then its far easier just to resign and find a job elsewhere.

I can't see privately owned streets being a bad thing. For one thing, the security guards would keep the trouble makers away .

It's like this in Brindleyplace in Bham. The developer owns the streets and they have their own guards that come round and move you on if they think you are 'loitering' lol...even though it's just like a normal open area of the city

As far as I can tell it's a good thing although it does risk alienating a lot of the populace

The plans for the £700m regeneration of Preston's Tithebarn area will be on show from 17 May in the new Information Centre at 50 - 52 Lancaster Street, Preston. The Information Centre is open until 11 June after which date the plans can still be seen by appointment. If you wish to make an appointment to view the plans please call the Tithebarn information line on 0161 236 1514.

All feedback will be reviewed by the Preston Tithebarn Partnership, a joint venture between developers Grosvenor and Lend Lease, and used to evolve the final scheme for which a planning application will be submitted in the autumn.

Visitors to the Information Centre are able to view the plans for Tithebarn, along with a 3D model illustrating the proposal. Members of the project team will be on hand to answer questions and a feedback form will be be used to capture comments and suggestions.

The Tithebarn proposals include 1.5million sq ft of retail, leisure and residential development. The scheme will consist of a 230,000 sq ft John Lewis store, a further 150,000 sq ft department store, over 100 retail units, more than 20 restaurants and cafés, and a multi-screen cinema. In addition there will be approximately 400 residential apartments, over 2,700 parking spaces, a new and refurbished market area and a new, relocated bus station. The plans will help create a 21st century city centre for Preston producing a modern, vibrant place to live, work and visit.

Anthony Gill, Project Director, Preston Tithebarn Partnership said:

"Preston is an increasingly important city in the region, yet with much more potential to be realised. The proposed regeneration of Tithebarn is a major step forward for the city and, as such, we believe it is vital we understand the wishes of local people. We have enjoyed talking people through our proposals and to hearing their thoughts; it is important to us to know what they want for Tithebarn so that we can work to meeting their needs and aspirations. All feedback received will be invaluable and will help towards shaping the final plans.

"In partnership with the City Council, Preston Tithebarn Partnership is looking forward to working with the community to deliver an innovative scheme that Prestonians will be proud of."

Jim Carr, Chief Executive of Preston City Council recognised the significance of the scheme for Preston's future:

"The Tithebarn scheme will see the regeneration of a large part of our city and will ensure that Preston is able to compete with other high quality retail centres like Liverpool and Manchester.

"I would encourage anyone who lives or works in the city and has not already viewed the plans to get involved in the consultation process and ensure that their voice is heard on the proposals; this scheme is being developed for Prestonians so it is only right that they help to shape it."

I'm there!

I'll certainly try and get there too.

Regarding the "privatisation" of the streets around Tithebarn. I don't see any issues. Better that than adding the maintenance/policing bill onto the populace of Preston's council tax?

(Unless it all goes onto the bill of a Mr R. Iversider) :)

In Friday's Evening Post, I know our dear Accura's expecting the a Tithebarn-bashing.

Be interesting to see what there is?:bash:

After eleven years of reading negative comments from readers in the LEP about Tithebarn, one begins to develop a thick skin ;)

I dont really understand the LEP's point of view on Tithebarn. It will benefit Preston immensely. Not least because we'll finally see off the bus station (if I ever go into Preston by bus, I get off a stop or two early, just to avoid it). The city centre does need regenerating and I think that finding a new place for the 'market' might benefit it and I think Tithebarn will definately be a good step forward for Preston.
I've just been getting rather annoyed that nothing seems to be happening. I'm the sort of person who likes action, and there hasnt been any so far.

If they hadn't knocked it down, they could have relocated the market to the Public Hall!

Wazcaster,

I would say your description of your own opinions on Tithebarn mirror those of the LEP to the letter.

We agree that Tithebarn and the regeneration of the city centre is an immensely positive thing, we believe it has to happen - but we are frustrated at the lack of action.

Onward to the promised land......:banana:

David