Preston definetely needs Tithebarn. The only majot projects in and around the centre for decades have been student accomodation... coming in on the train from Blackpool it really does strike you how much the Uni dominates the centre, and especially with Preston now being a 'city' it needs proper commercial development to go alongside it. Otherwise people will continue to go to Manchester for a 'proper' shopping trip, as the offering there is just sooo much better than here.

Although obv Tithebarn is majorly retail I also feel that more office occupiers need to be enticed back into the centre and the only way this will happen is by building more quality office stock. Its not as if theres a lack of demand in Preston, you only need to look at the overdevelopment around Fulwood to realise that! some of the offices on the outskirts are really poor quality as well, even the newer ones, for example i know someone who works at the new EDS offices opposite ASDA and they are apparently crap, and simply aren't big enough, as well as having no facilities nearby.

http://www.lep.co.uk/news/Revealed-The-future-of-Preston.4093637.jp

New pictures, videos and details on Tithebarn.....more in Saturday's paper.

I quote from the above article:
"Preston Council leader Ken Hudson said that there would be more than 20,000 spaces created at Park and Ride points across the city with the site on Riversway linked to the train station by light rail." Sounds good!

I quote from the above article:
"Preston Council leader Ken Hudson said that there would be more than 20,000 spaces created at Park and Ride points across the city with the site on Riversway linked to the train station by light rail." Sounds good!

A significant number of these spaces are in South Ribble, whose residents strangely seem to think of the City of Preston as a drain on their resources rather than their primary regional income generator. Therefore it's not in Ken Hudson's remit to say whether these P&R spaces will actually happen. About 2,000 of these spaces are proposed at the Tickled Trout, which SRBC thinks of as a "Gateway to South Ribble" (HA!) because it's within their jurisdiction, rather than the way into Preston, which is how 99% of regular users of the M6 between J's 30-32 view it.

I live in South Ribble, and we had our house valued recently. Our proximity to Preston adds so much value. I don't know why people complain.

Cheers for the link david.

On the subject of light rail, I'm not sure that including it in the proposals is a great idea. Getting it approved was hard enough at the best of times, let alone in a poor economic climate.

http://img384.imageshack.us/img384/4085/008re0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img384.imageshack.us/img384/4085/008re0.395740c119.jpg (http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=384&i=008re0.jpg)
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dont know how i feel about that. whats with all the green roofs? why does sthe majority of it appear to be glassed in, like a shopping centre. not the street setting if liverpool? there is nothing of any massing, they appear to have flattened lancastria house. infact looking again my main issue is the green roofs. wtf. where did these come from? is there going to be a model in this new shop?

overall im just very unimpressed

me too..... it's just a bit, well, bland and unexciting? which is precisely what this scheme needs to be, in order to put Preston on the map.

To think they're going to demolish Preston Office Centre as well... where will all the civil servants go? I actually quite like these buildings, plus they've just had their windows replaced! Madness!

Getting it approved was hard enough at the best of times, let alone in a poor economic climate.

This shouldn't really be a problem for government... it seems to have unlimited borrowing capacity, after all it's just managed to get hold of billions to fund the income tax backtrack!

Also I don't believe the economic climate is as bad as is being peddled in the media, I think they are guilty of overdoing it (as always)... there will be casualties but only those who have been irresponsible in their lending (ie Northern Rock) There may also be large numbers of redundancies in the City, but let's not forget the massive numbers of jobs that have been created in financial services in recent years.

So is it going to be a shopping centre rather then new streets after all? I must say Im not too impressed, and Ive been all in favour of the scheme all along, but on the condition it was going to be street based, a bit like new Manchester.... Hmmm

BTW moving to Preston in Uni in September so been paying a close eye on this thread for a while.

me too..... it's just a bit, well, bland and unexciting? which is precisely what this scheme needs to be, in order to put Preston on the map.

To think they're going to demolish Preston Office Centre as well... where will all the civil servants go? I actually quite like these buildings, plus they've just had their windows replaced! Madness!

The office centre isn't being demolished completely, only 2 of the four buildings are being demolished. The civil services based in that building have just cut their overall staff by 1/3 and are continuing to do so. By the time Tithebarn comes around, there will probably be enough space for all the remaining staff.

As for the images, my view tends to echo those already expressed. Some parts of it look really good, but some parts really bland. One thing is for certain, the layout has changed massively since the original concept.
Just a few pointers:

- Covered roofs: although the ground level renders show a streetscape covered by a glass roof, if you look at the overhead image, its only a small section. We always knew Tithebarn would have a small shopping centre included.

- Green Roofs :lol: Forget that! This is their attempt to make the roofs look good, and they've made a crap job of it. In reality the roofing of all the buildings will be covered in plant. Expect to see lots of metal, no green.

- Note how once again the Guild Centre is gone.

they appear to have flattened lancastria house
Shit! I didn't notice that! Expect that to change, I'm sure its protected. They can't get rid of Lancastria and keep Ribblesdale!

Hmm, I'm not sure about that. I do like the idea of regenerating the city centre, but I'm not sure about the buildings. They look a bit ugly really.
Having said that, I now recall the plans to reclad Lowthian...

EDIT: By the way, has anybody seen the latest render of the train stations multi-story car park? I only saw an image of it so I dont know where its going to go, but it does look like they've tried to make so it doesnt look too hideous.

The new station multi-storey is being built on the site of the current station surface car park adjacent to the Fishergate Centre car park. Thats why a lot of people have been moaning about how there will be temporarily a few less parking spaces in town.

The images are indicative only, giving an idea of the layout and basic look & feel of the development. The detailed plans won't be submitted until next year. So we will have to keep our opinions to ourselves for a while longer yet.

I must admit, when I first saw the images (especially the map) I was horrified! But then when you look closer, you see it is still a very basic masterplan of the area.
I like the idea of moving the cinema to the market area as it is then more central to the whole city centre and not just Tithebarn. However, it then leaves the Tithebarn area indeed a bit too shopping centre-ish perhaps.
As for the green areas, I imagine these are supposed to be roof terraces for the some 400 apartments. And the LEP says that parks are now included in the plans.. so maybe a rooftop park is on the cards? There appears to be a sloped green area in front of the Unicentre in these new plans...
And I really like the idea of a restaurant/bar area around the old warehouse that will be retained, perfect next to the Guild Hall!
So while on first look this may look worse than previous efforts, I think it would be a bit dumb to start bashing these plans until we have seen the detailed and accurate renders that are yet to come and go before the Council.

Sorry but those renders of the latest scheme look awful! - 21st century version of the much derided 1960's shopping precinct - not quite street, not quite mall but some inbetween version that will become a magnate for thugs! Bring back the old street based plan as this is awful and such as shame.

heres hoping that they will do something with it. because to be honest of thats all there doing i would rather we kept the bus station (as crap as it is) reminds me of what they did in exexter. i knew some of it would be shopping mall esque but from that the majority seems to be so. dont like the was that crooked lane/lords walk seem to have vanished so the only access to the area is the guild hall and old vicarage. just seems abit lazy to me especially when you compare it to liverpool. hopefully it will improve. I think we need more detailed plans before we make any final judgements. arnt they meant to be submitting them in the summer?

Wish list :P
-Lancastria house better not be going
-Keep crooked lane and lord walk
-Some sort of tower
-Rid of the uni centre

:D

by the way. what happened to the public squares?

The public squares are still in there... they have just been shrunk somewhat.

I doubt unfortunatly that Lancastria House is listed, but its the best early 20C building in the town. It really would be crying shame for it to go. There is quite a bit of talk about reopening Liverpool Street in the interview though, which makes me fear the worst.

Where did Liverpool Street run? Alongside the covered market?

Yes if you look on old maps (which i have somewhere) it runs down the long side of the covered market, parallel to earl street. i hope they do reopen it, if only to let the markets breathe. There shouldnt be any problem keeping Lancastria House as it was there when before Liverpool street dissapeared. If they demolish it then is lazyness on Grosvenors place. It should be listed in my opinion. Does anyone know if the market carpark is going (god i hope so), if so does that mean were going to get Tenterfield Street back as well (used to run parallel to liverpool street) I dont know why they dont just scrap the idea of tiny crappy public squares and just go for one, bigger square.

This part of the LEP report says it all:

"May 2008 - Public consultation begins;
Autumn 2008 - Planning application submitted;
Winter 2008 - Planning permission granted " (!!!)

I hate to say I told you so, but the boring box like structures we're being shown are a total let-down. They certainly don't live up to the hype we've had to endure for the last 10 years.

This SHOPPING CENTRE - and it must be now be obvious to all that this is all that it is, is not worth what we are giving away in return for it, particularly the potential public transport capacity embodied in our bus station. Our council has become a developer's puppet show, a sad charade of democracy.

This part of the LEP report says it all:

"May 2008 - Public consultation begins;
Autumn 2008 - Planning application submitted;
Winter 2008 - Planning permission granted " (!!!)

I hate to say I told you so, but the boring box like structures we're being shown are a total let-down. They certainly don't live up to the hype we've had to endure for the last 10 years.

This SHOPPING CENTRE - and it must be now be obvious to all that this is all that it is, is not worth what we are giving away in return for it, particularly the potential public transport capacity embodied in our bus station. Our council has become a developer's puppet show, a sad charade of democracy.
I've been waiting for you Obi-Wan...


Although some of the design elements are a bit crap, I still think you are completely off the mark by calling this a mere 'shopping centre'.
As for the boring box structures... although everybody on here agrees that the designs at the moment are a bit crap, these are NOT the final designs. Even if BDP produced these images, they are not going to put too much effort into renders of buildings that will look completely different.

I think we can all agree that it is much better than what is currently there.

Retail sales assistants cannot go on strike because its perceived as unskilled labour, and like you said they would just be sacked and replaced.

In fact shop workers can and do go on strike, for example in the 80's the mainly women workers at 'Lady at Lord John' went on strike over a case of sexual harrasment and unfair dismissal. They won their battle, and a rather good film was made about the dispute. They were able to picket directly outside their own shops, which helped their strike considerably as it won them national publicity.

Much more recently workers for 'Netto' in Ireland went on strike over changes to working practices - again they won most of their demands.

Preston's former MP, Audrey Wise, was President of USDAW, the shop-worker's union. We should make sure that our city puts the rights of shop workers high on it's agenda - rather than creating a zone where noone has any rights, except the powerful retail monopolies that will dominate it.

This SHOPPING CENTRE - and it must be now be obvious to all that this is all that it is, is not worth what we are giving away in return for it,

One thing I was certain would not change is this tired old record. If it is "just an shopping centre" can you explain the presence of office space, cinema, restaurants and apartments? I know you'll ignore this, you always do when the question is too difficult.

Better yet, if this initial concept is just "bland boxes" please give us your plan. It is clear that you are such a better planner and architect than anyone else connected to TB. :ohno:

particularly the potential public transport capacity embodied in our bus station.

Maybe it was just me, but looking at the scheme in the LEP, the new bus station looks to be a fairly similar length to the existing one. This is certainly a question I will ask when I get to visit the info centre.

Found details of a similar scheme in Bury:

www.therockbury.com

Sadly there's is due for completion next year and doesnt seem to have taken donkeys years!

In fact shop workers can and do go on strike, for example in the 80's the mainly women workers at 'Lady at Lord John' went on strike over a case of sexual harrasment and unfair dismissal. They won their battle, and a rather good film was made about the dispute. They were able to picket directly outside their own shops, which helped their strike considerably as it won them national publicity.

Much more recently workers for 'Netto' in Ireland went on strike over changes to working practices - again they won most of their demands.

Preston's former MP, Audrey Wise, was President of USDAW, the shop-worker's union. We should make sure that our city puts the rights of shop workers high on it's agenda - rather than creating a zone where noone has any rights, except the powerful retail monopolies that will dominate it.

Some retailers actually do listen to their workforce and ultimately it is the retailers who decide whether things will change or not. As a retail worker, I've seen cases first hand where the shop workers union have been involved and believe me, they have very little power. They can basically offer support and advice, but very little else.

Unfair dismissal is a different issue, however most modern contracts with retailers cover any striking and sacking issues, as agreed to by the worker when signing on.

new tithebarn website

http://www.prestontithebarn.com/index.htm

And here we have it... a caption underneath the images on the website.

"This is a computer generated image for illustrative purposes and subject to change."

I feel much better now :)

Well I'm glad the website has finally been opened. I'm looking forward to seeing updates, soon I hope!

"This is a computer generated image for illustrative purposes and subject to change."

I told you so! :)

Away from Tithebarn, I found the following website while searching for information about the new Tesco Homeplus at the Capitol Centre:

www.tescocottam.co.uk

The site is mainly about the Tesco store, but it gives a good bit of info about the neighbouring marina, as well as some new pictures.

http://www.tescocottam.co.uk/images/scheme_r1_c8.gif

I think it's true to say that the Tithebarn images we ran in the Post on Saturday are intended to be indicative rather than the finished product.

Speaking with Anthony Gill and Richard Coppell, of the Preston Tithebarn Partnership, they said that they were planning to use a wide range of architects working with a single masterplan run by BDP.
In Liverpool, Grosvenor has done the same with about 20-odd different firms, here the number stands at seven and there's more to come, apparently.
In the words of Mr Coppell: "It will look as if many hands have been at work."

There was a lot of talk about every part of the development being "future-proofed" to ensure that it not only fitted architecturally today but also 20 years into the future and beyond.

The one thing that struck my somewhat uneducated eye about the whole thing was the sheer ambitious scale of it - and the even more ambitious time scale.
They should ask the guys from the Masjid-e-Salaam mosque on Watling Street Road how quickly things get through planning in Preston!

But, my opinion is, if they say they can deliver this, to cost and on time, then good luck to them, they have my support 100%.

Cheers!

David

I hate to say it but Preston seems like its going to become one big shopping arcade.

These plans lack imagination and will leave our city centre short of any landmark buildings, public spaces or culture. Any truly great city needs a "vibe" of such, this scheme just looks so plastic and mundane.

This city as a severe lack of talls, how good would the guild legacy building have looked if it was included in the plans?

The bus station has to go, but back to the drawing board im afraid. This project just does not look as ambitious has we have been led to believe.

Only 9% of people who responded to the LEP poll thought that the bus station should go on the corner of Church St and Manchester Rd. Guess where this design puts the bus station...

62% of people who responded want to keep the bus station. Ordinary people value public transport, even if developers, businessmen and politicians do not. They understand that relegating the bus station to a small insignificant corner of Preston will have a bad effect on Preston's economy and the quality of life of a whole section of Preston people (just not the people who get listened to now in Preston).

I don't know how many more times I can do this... OK! To keep the bus station means it is too far from the train station plus it prevents any decent development from the market onwards really as it cuts that entire area off from the rest of the centre. Of course, it should be closer to the train station but that would mean definitely resiting the ring road and probably even demolishing the Fishergate Centre. This will probably never happen! So they have had to make the best of a bad situation. Looking at the map on the new Tithebarn website, the new location links the ring road, Manchester Road and Fishergate easily. In many cities, you need to get different buses to get to your destination. For those who can't be bothered to walk 10 minutes from the bus station to the train station, well tough titties!

Preston Guy, in the poll, 32% wanted the bus station nearer to the rail station, 50% wanted to leave it where it is, and only 9% thought the corner of Manchester Road and Church St was a good site.

Think about the people who use buses - many are elderly or disabled, and will find walking up the hill at Church St too big a barrier. As things stand, people find it easy to get between the bus station and the market, Tithebarn will wreck this, and actually put a certain layer of people off from coming in to Preston.

Of course these are people who do not have large wads of cash in their pockets, who would be unlikely to shop at John Lewis, so their opinions don't count with the politicians and developers.

Think about the people who use buses - many are elderly or disabled, and will find walking up the hill at Church St too big a barrier. As things stand, people find it easy to get between the bus station and the market, Tithebarn will wreck this, and actually put a certain layer of people off from coming in to Preston.

What hill?!?!

Plus if they have managed in the past to navigate the steep gradients of the current bus station subways and skybridge (which I remind you are the only ways to access the bus station), I doubt they would have trouble getting up a slight difference in land level.
As for the distance to the market, the new station will only be slightly further away than the current station. And when I say slightly, I mean a few metres. Don't forget that the markets will also be expanded at street level down Market Street West and East, bringing it even closer to Church Street.

Think about the people who use buses - many are elderly or disabled, and will find walking up the hill at Church St too big a barrier.

I'd imagine anyone finding that "hill" a challenge would probably struggle to get around regardless of the geography. Put the Shopmobility place at the bus station, that should solve the problem.

As things stand, people find it easy to get between the bus station and the market, Tithebarn will wreck this, and actually put a certain layer of people off from coming in to Preston.

The only people who would be put off are probably too lazy to leave home anyway. You make it sound like the market and the bus station are in different counties, not just round the corner.

Of course these are people who do not have large wads of cash in their pockets, who would be unlikely to shop at John Lewis, so their opinions don't count with the politicians and developers.

You don't need large wads of cash to shop in JL, as anyone who has actually been in one will know. Plus JL won't be the only shop in Preston.....not that your bleating would say so!

Looking at the bus station on the plans, it looks to have around 30-35 bays. How does this compare to the current utilisation?

Riversider, the 'hill' you talk about is nothing compared to the steep, gloomy and smelly subways these oh-so-frail people use to get to the current bus station. Don't even try dispute that because its the truth.
And as JonH has said, John Lewis is hardly Selfridges. It's more along the lines of Debenhams, one of Preston's busiest stores!

Ordinary people value public transport, even if developers, businessmen and politicians do not.

It's exactly comments like this that make you so frustrating Riversider, because it shows how little, if any research you've done on the subject on a national or international scale, or on an academic or practical level. Developers, businessmen and all politicians the world over, with the exception of those in Lancashire County Hall, recognise the considerable benefits that accrue to any scheme and the surrounding populace by making the most of public transportation links and interchanges. ONLY LCC want the Manchester Road site, and blocked all 6 other alternatives proposed by all the other stakeholders in the Tithebarn.
LCC's "research" claimed that as there is at present little cross mode use between the railway bus networks, there was no need to have the bus station any where near the railway station. They failed to ask the most obvious question, "Is the reason that people don't cross from bus to train, or vice-versa, in Preston because the linkage is so bad?" Obviously the answer is "yes", as that is why Virgin are building a 400+ space multi-story car park at the south end of Butler Street. One can only assume that this will add on a typical day some 1,000 car movements per day in and around an already overcrowded road junction, thereby exacerbating road congestion in Preston city centre.
This whole fiasco could have been averted if Preston was a Unitary Authority.

For those who can't be bothered to walk 10 minutes from the bus station to the train station, well tough titties!

:lol:

inst manchester road further away from the train station though? :dunno:

:lol:

inst manchester road further away from the train station though? :dunno:

No. Manchester Road and the current bus station are exactly the same distance west from the train station. However, it would take longer to walk from the current bus station because its slightly further north and the exits are on completely different streets, where as the entrance to the new bus station would effectively be on the same street as the railway station.

when it's built, they ought to have a little shuttle bus imbetween the train station and the new bus station, for people who find it harder to walk that distance, or for people who need to make a tight connection. or alternatively, just for people who can't be bothered walking between the two!!

although i have to say walking between them at the moment means going down Fishergate which has narrow pavements that are nearly always full, or through st georges which is also usually packed out.

when it's built, they ought to have a little shuttle bus imbetween the train station and the new bus station, for people who find it harder to walk that distance, or for people who need to make a tight connection. or alternatively, just for people who can't be bothered walking between the two!!

I think thats the eventual plan. It would also be free :cool:

A free bus a-la Manchester, Chester or Huddersfield would be great.

http://www.lep.co.uk/news/John-Lewis-store-to-create.4103819.jp

Developers, businessmen and all politicians the world over, with the exception of those in Lancashire County Hall, recognise the considerable benefits that accrue to any scheme and the surrounding populace by making the most of public transportation links and interchanges.

If this was true, we would keep the current bus station, with it's wonderful public transport capacity, which gives room not just for current public transport use, but for future innovations such as tram, monorail, rickshaw or whatever schemes our creative and imaginative people come up with.

As for the smelly subways, this problem could be immediately abolished by turning the station from an island into a peninsula - a covered ground level walkway to St Johns would cost virtually nothing.

Only 9% of people want to move the bus station to Manchester Road, which is certainly the worst option available. 62% oppose demolishing the bus station. It is not LCC that want to demolish and downgrade the bus station, but Grosvenor, and therefore their Vision Board and the Council itself.

If you are old, living on a tight budget, or rely on public transport, you are clearly not the type of person that is wanted in Preston City Centre any more.

If this was true, we would keep the current bus station, with it's wonderful public transport capacity, which gives room not just for current public transport use, but for future innovations such as tram, monorail, rickshaw or whatever schemes our creative and imaginative people come up with.
Yes, but if the bus station was left as it was, people would continue to stop going there, rendering any kind of mega transport interchange useless. Don't forget that the patronage of the bus station is falling as more and more people use bus stops in the centre.

As for the smelly subways, this problem could be immediately abolished by turning the station from an island into a peninsula - a covered ground level walkway to St Johns would cost virtually nothing.
Virtually nothing? The cost of creating a new entrance ALONE would be more expensive than building a decent new bus station. The area on the inside would have to be completely hollowed out allowing access. Some kind of genius pedestrian crossing would have to be invented to allow people to cross a very busy bus apron, and Tithebarn street (I take it you have that all figured out :crazy: ). Then the concrete cantilevers above would have to be
reinforced! Such extensive work on a building that isn't structurally sound as it is would cost a huge amount. Factoring in a full renovation of the rest of the bus station would cost well over £100m, possibly even over £200m.

Only 9% of people want to move the bus station to Manchester Road, which is certainly the worst option available. 62% oppose demolishing the bus station.
Thank God for the silent majority :)

It is not LCC that want to demolish and downgrade the bus station, but Grosvenor, and therefore their Vision Board and the Council itself.
Erm... actually LCC do want to demolish and upgrade the bus station, as they have been doing in every Lancashire town and city EXCEPT Preston over the past 10 years.

If you are old, living on a tight budget, or rely on public transport, you are clearly not the type of person that is wanted in Preston City Centre any more.

Care to explain?

It has been hailed as the saviour of the east side of Preston but what will the £700m Tithebarn regeneration do for the rest of the Lancashire city?

More than four years ago, the vision of a brave new world for shopping in Preston was unveiled.

It involved swallowing up a large chunk of the city centre's most popular car parks and promised to kickstart its rebirth.

But, this was not the long-awaited and much-talked-about Tithebarn scheme, this was FG2.

The plans were the rival offering from Warner Estate, the investment giant which owns Preston's Fishergate Shopping Centre, and one which promised to spark a "retail revolution" which would take on Manchester and Liverpool.

It would have brought a new four-storey department store and 12 new shops.

Four years and five months on, the plans are in but there are no signs of the men in hard hats appearing.

"It is evolving," insists Warner asset manager Alison Barnesdale, "we are having discussions with various retailers to try and keep the plans evolving and to take the project forward.

"Preston is a very strong retail scheme and yet there are still quite a few retailers who do not have a base and want to come here.

"It is these new retailers we are trying to talk to and it is attracting these new faces that provide the most attractive proposition for both us and for the city."

It seems they weren't kidding, the architects have some updated visuals: http://www.dlgarchitects.com/our_work.asp?section=273&dev=14&project=39&image=293

Accura - the walkway could be the width of one of the existing openings (which are all wider than a bus), so no structural alterations or 'hollowing out'(?) would be neccessary. The walkway would simply turn 360 degree access for buses into 359 degree access for buses, so no crossing scheme would be neccessary either. A zebra crossing opposite St Johns would suffice for crossing the road at the end of the walkway, it's not a particularly busy road, though it's a good place to find a taxi.

There is still no Lancashire town or city that has a bus station to rival Preston's, 30 years after it was originally built. Most have a set of glorified bus shelters - like Blackburn or Lancaster.

The FG2 development is much more sensitive to Preston's needs - it is not overblown, and it will not destroy the jewel in Lancashire's public transport crown.

There is still no Lancashire town or city that has a bus station to rival Preston's, 30 years after it was originally built. Most have a set of glorified bus shelters - like Blackburn or Lancaster.

Congratulations, you really are showing your utter ignorance now. Lancaster's NEW bus station is modern, smart, enclosed, possesses up to date departure and arrival information, toilet facilities, Shopmobility, travel information kiosk and a shop. Pretty much all the stuff that...er.....you...er.....praise in the existing bus station in Preston..... (And probably all the stuff that the new bus station will have, Shopmobility aside.)

:bash:

The FG2 development is much more sensitive to Preston's needs - it is not overblown, and it will not destroy the jewel in Lancashire's public transport crown.

(Totally confused) But, FG2 is.....er.......just a shopping centre and car park! The EXACT thing you blast Tithebarn over!!!!!! :lol::lol::lol:

I think Tark struck it on the head, but the above comments from you just show how little you actually know about what you campaign against*


*Anything that brings Preston out of the 19th century it would seem.

Riversider is one of those people who always thinks the exact oppisite of everything you do, it's quite amusing really.

As I visiting Preston a fortnight ago in preperation for moving there I have to say the bus station is a disgrace and something like at Burnley or Manchester would be far more appropriate. It took my girlfriend and I about 20 minutes to find a way out, ending up going down some horrible subway that went on forever before emerging in some shut shopping centre where we felt like burglars. It really felt like I was back on my travels through Belurussia or Moldova. The sooner it is gone the better.

Accura - the walkway could be the width of one of the existing openings (which are all wider than a bus), so no structural alterations or 'hollowing out'(?) would be neccessary.
Fair enough on the facade, but a significant portion of the mezzanine would have to be demolished to comply to modern design requirements. The wall is no less than 3 metres from the apron doors. Being the only access to the bus station, the amount of people going through such an entrance would be pretty high, and would result in great difficulty for users (especially disabled ones) if the mezzanine was left in place.

The walkway would simply turn 360 degree access for buses into 359 degree access for buses, so no crossing scheme would be neccessary either. A zebra crossing opposite St Johns would suffice for crossing the road at the end of the walkway, it's not a particularly busy road, though it's a good place to find a taxi.
The turnaround for the buses would be very inconvenient. When taking into account the stations one way system (which cannot be changed due to the width of the roadway at the ends of the station), traffic alterations would have to be made to the roads, adding more costs. Tithebarn Street is a very popular cut-through for people trying to dodge rush hour traffic on the ringway. A crossing there (considering that there would be a large amount of people using the crossing) would cause traffic to back up onto the Ringway junction and down Ormskirk Road.

I think Jon answered the rest of your points effectively.

On the subject of the other bus stations in Lancashire, the vast majority of them were upgraded to a very high standard. The only town which actually lost a full blow terminal was Morecambe, due to its proximity to Lancaster and a decline in activity in the town. The clustered stops still maintain a building with an information desk and toilet and waiting facilities.
Lancaster got an enlarged full blow bus station on the same site as the old one. Blackburn is not under the jurisdiction of LCC anyway, but it got a new full terminus forming an interchange with the railway station, as part of a buildup to a plan just like Tithebarn which has begun construction!

Thank you for the link preston_guy. I'll use those images in the projects list which I have just finished COMPLETELY UPDATING. A lot of stuff has been taken off that has been completed or cancelled.
I think its a safe bet that Royal Locks will not be built, so I have removed that. I've kept the Horrocks' Quarter on, but I've changed the status to On Hold and moved it to the bottom of the page. If anybody would like to see anything added or changed, please don't hesitate to give us a shout.

Riversider is one of those people who always thinks the exact oppisite of everything you do, it's quite amusing really.

More amusing when he constantly ignores anything that proves him wrong. Something almost every other poster here has managed to do over the ages! :lol:


It really felt like I was back on my travels through Belurussia or Moldova. The sooner it is gone the better.

Chelyabinsk in Russia has a more pleasant main shopping street than Preston. You can find it on Google Earth and see photos.

This is not to discredit Preston but just point out that it has a lot to do to improve the current "offer"

I accept your better knowledge of Lancaster - last time I was there was a few years ago.

I've no idea why the mezzanine should have anything at all to do with a covered walkway - if it originated about halfway along the side, there would be plenty of height and clearance in every direction.

There's certainly a demand for such a walkway - only today a woman's leg was crushed because she got caught by a reversing bus as she walked across the apron.

You make it sound like floods of people would use this walkway - if this is true it reflects the heavy use the bus station actually has.

FG2 is certainly a shopping centre - and in it's publicity it has never pretended to be anything else. Tithebarn on the other hand has basically claimed to be a wonderful gift to the people of Preston, all things to all men. When we look more closely however, we learn that we will lose so much in return for more of what we already have.

Riversider is one of those people who always thinks the exact oppisite of everything you do, it's quite amusing really.

I'm not deliberately contrary. I maybe have a different set of values - putting quality of life of ordinary people ahead of profit, grandiose architecture or business priorities. This is what I think is at the root of our disagreement. If it provides you with amusement, then all the better, I'd rather you enjoyed my contributions which must at least give you the opportunity to think and justify your position. The polls published in the LEP show that the Tithebarn scheme is nowhere near as popular as we have been led to believe.

I do also think that as more people realise exactly what they have lost as a result of Tithebarn, particularly the loss of our bus station, anger against those who implemented it will at least match the anger at those who demolished the Town Hall, drove the ringway through the Town Centre, ripped half of the Corn Exchange away and indulged in the disgusting fiasco on the docks.

Of course by then it will be too late...

I've no idea why the mezzanine should have anything at all to do with a covered walkway - if it originated about halfway along the side, there would be plenty of height and clearance in every direction.
Not really, no more than 4 square metres.

There's certainly a demand for such a walkway - only today a woman's leg was crushed because she got caught by a reversing bus as she walked across the apron.
Highlighting the overall design flaws with the bus station.

You make it sound like floods of people would use this walkway - if this is true it reflects the heavy use the bus station actually has.
Although patronage is declining, I'm not denying that a lot of people use the bus station. The only time there is floods of people going in is at 4:10pm when Cardinal Newman College students pour into the place. Your walkway would not address this problem.

FG2 is certainly a shopping centre - and in it's publicity it has never pretended to be anything else. Tithebarn on the other hand has basically claimed to be a wonderful gift to the people of Preston, all things to all men. When we look more closely however, we learn that we will lose so much in return for more of what we already have.
FG2 is far more profitable than Tithebarn due to inferior design quality and emphasis purely upon retail and not the urban fabric. This is the kind of development I suggested Tithebarn would get if it was purely about profitability for the developers.

If it provides you with amusement, then all the better, I'd rather you enjoyed my contributions which must at least give you the opportunity to think and justify your position.
I enjoy our little debates, both on here and at PrestonLancs. Its just a little frustrating at times when you make a point, somebody responds and then you don't respond back and instead change the subject to something completely different.

I do also think that as more people realise exactly what they have lost as a result of Tithebarn, particularly the loss of our bus station, anger against those who implemented it will at least match the anger at those who demolished the Town Hall, drove the ringway through the Town Centre, ripped half of the Corn Exchange away and indulged in the disgusting fiasco on the docks.
Whats done is done, and nobody on here is denying that Preston's planning history is somewhat crap. But what are we supposed to do? If we went along your route and developed an insular fear of change, us and future generations would have to live with the mistakes of previous generations. Its ironic that Tithebarn will restore a lot of what we lost during the planning mistakes of the 1960's. Its also worth remembering that the council we have today are not the same people who made those mistakes.

Blackburn is not under the jurisdiction of LCC anyway,
And neither is Blackpool - but in the rump of Lancashire CC administered places, Preston Bus Station is the only one that they don't own, (though they do have control of all the roads in and out of it) and as a result Preston is the victim of much petty-mindedness eminating from the mandarins of County Hall.

Now you've said that, things make a lot more sense concerning County Hall's hostility towards Preston when it comes to investing in transport.

At least somebody at LCC has the right idea:

County Coun Tony Martin, cabinet member for sustainable development, said the 62% of people who did not think Preston's iconic bus station should be demolished needed "a wake-up call".

That comment in itself sums up some of the arrogance represented by this scheme.

Coun Martin is supposed to represent 'sustainable' development - but what is sustainable about downgrading our public transport facilities when petrol prices are soaring? What is sustainable about building 200 more shops, when we can't fill the shops we already have? It's Councillor Martin that needs a wakeup call - his job as a public representative is to listen to the people - not to dictate to us.

http://img395.imageshack.us/img395/692/003hd6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img395.imageshack.us/img395/692/003hd6.e9cb87ffff.jpg (http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=395&i=003hd6.jpg)
Though not as funky as the original design, it is quite an impressive building and after visiting the Tithebarn Information Centre today I found out there definitely will be a rooftop terrace restaurant at the front of the building.
And I am afraid to report that I was told that Lancastria House WILL be demolished! :-( The people at the centre told me they had tried (as we saw in the previous renders) to incorporate the building into the project but that the design of the building wouldn't allow it to fit into the proposed building (as this is where the new cinema will be housed).
I also learned more about the rooftop gardens, that most of these will be for the residential developments but that they are looking at making some of these areas, particularly around the new gym (to go on the top of the building in front of the Unicentre) into public areas. They also said that Lancaster Road will be pedestrianised with plants/flowers/grass/seating areas and only vehicular access will be for trucks going to the service area behind the Princes Buildings.
As well as this it was confirmed that PCC are looking for arrange a shuttle bus from the new bus terminal and that they have been given a grant by the NWDA and [despite todays reports that the PAD gallery will be housed there] are still looking to open the new library at the Dean's Chambers on the flag market.
I was also told that the people who worked in the half of POC that is knocked down will be rehoused in a new office block next to Holiday Inn (it looked about the same height on the model) and there will be an equally tall building on the side of the John Lewis building to rehouse Council workers whose premises will be demolished.
It was also said that there is still a new hotel in the plans (from what I gathered it is the glass structure by the huge car park) and that as for the new bus station, some of the remaining warehouse structures will be retained and built into the new building.
And lastly (I think) the new restaurant/cafe quarter around the old warehouse by the Guild Hall as well as the more detailed plans of the glazed in markets looked really interesting. Oh, and yes, the Guild Centre is definitely being torn down.
There were quite a lot of people in the place and we were all sort of debating over the model, me and the rep and a few others on one side and an older man and a few others on the other. They were arguing that only the Duke of Westminster will benefit and that Preston will lose out... Was that you, Riversider?

Chorley has a nice shiny new bus station.

Plus it's in an appropriate location :lol:

I like Chorley's bus station. Not a patch on Preston's though.

we were all sort of debating over the model, me and the rep and a few others on one side and an older man and a few others on the other. They were arguing that only the Duke of Westminster will benefit and that Preston will lose out... Was that you, Riversider?

It wasn't me at the display - haven't had a chance to visit it yet. Shows that there are lots and lots of Prestonians besides myself who have not been taken in by the hype and who value quality of life and decent public transport above flashy facades, ringing tills and self-indulgent architecture.

At the end of the day, the man in question is quite accurate in suggesting that the whole place is basically a machine for getting money out of one set of pockets and into another, much smaller number of pockets.

It wasn't me at the display - haven't had a chance to visit it yet.

When you do, we'll finally agree on something - the exhibition is a serious disappointment, though we'll continue to disagree on the reasons, no doubt.
The Logo and slogan, "Never by halves", are also fairly weedy.

There demiloshing Lancastria House because it wont fit in with the cinema? what utter bollocks. Out of the whole scheme this is one thing that really pisses me off. Name me another building in Preston like it. Demolishing it is just shear lazyness! Isnt it listed or anything?

Good to hear that Lancaster road will be pedestrianised. Needs it to create a proper pedestrian link between the development and the existing core.

Why cant they get rid of the uni centre whilst there at it? hate the thing!

Good to hear that Deans Chambers is going to become the library. Any news is this will include the extension into the market?

Quite like the new John Lewis, looks all new and modern. Very big city like. Glass :D Gives me hope that as time goes on we will get better renders of the proposed buildings.

As for the Ringroad and Demolishing the Public Hall why dont you blame LCC, and while your at it have a word with them about the position of the new bus station. Something which they chose. PCC may be idiots at times but atleast there trying to plan for Prestons future.

As for Fishergate or Fishe rgate as it appears on the entrance. Its all very meh. I find it weird that Riversider preferes this which is a shopping centre which is designed to suck shops and shoppers from the rest of Preston to within its building. Whereas Tithebarn which provides Preston with jobs, homes, shops, leisure, library, modern bus station and generally transforming what is a sit area of preston into something that the city can be proud of. I really dont understand.

Whens the shop there till? Is there a model, any chance of pics? Did they give any idea of phasing. For instance. Are they goingto build the new markets/bus station first so the existing traders/buses can be rehoused?

Just one thing i have thought of, is that old building on ormskirk road staying or going?. Sheridan House i think its called.

Good to hear that Deans Chambers is going to become the library. Any news is this will include the extension into the market?

I doubt the library will include that bit of the market. Its been earmarked for the new fish market. Fantastic news about that project being revived though.

At the end of the day, the man in question is quite accurate in suggesting that the whole place is basically a machine for getting money out of one set of pockets and into another, much smaller number of pockets.
Thank you once again for completely ignoring my response to your points :sleepy:

It was also said that there is still a new hotel in the plans (from what I gathered it is the glass structure by the huge car park) and that as for the new bus station, some of the remaining warehouse structures will be retained and built into the new building.
Thats something of a relief... I occasionally haunt the Warehouse club so I'm very glad (as will my friends be) that its not getting the chop.

Massive shame about Lancastria House, it could look really good if they did it up.

Thats something of a relief... I occasionally haunt the Warehouse club so I'm very glad (as will my friends be) that its not getting the chop.

"Atkinson's" corner is going, but the 2 old wearhouses at the rear plus The Warehouse remain (something I campaigned for on the first plans I did with my dad in 1998!). The Old Dog remains as a pub with the arch to the east side being one entrance to the new bus station from Church St, plus the ground floors of other retained old warehouses adjacent providing other entrances to the new bus station.
The biggest tragedy of the scheme at the moment is the multi-storey car park between John Lewis & Ringway. They say a design competition will determine the architects for this structure, but at the end of the day, you can't polish a turd. It will be a massive, dead, lifeless structure for housing expensive lumps of metal blocking visual and pedestrian linkage between that part of southern Deepdale and the the city centre.
The only place for car parks is underground, and accepting this as part of the Tithebarn is a massive step backwards in terms social and environmental planning.

There's a couple of new images of the Fox Street hotel's courtyard aspect on the architect's website: http://www.harrison-ince.co.uk/projects/commercial/retail/fox_street_1.php

they could never demolish The Warehouse. Believe me, people simply would not allow it to happen, end of. It's a legend.

There demiloshing Lancastria House because it wont fit in with the cinema? what utter bollocks.

Whens the shop there till? Is there a model, any chance of pics? Did they give any idea of phasing. For instance. Are they going to build the new markets/bus station first so the existing traders/buses can be rehoused?

It is there until about June 11th I think they said and then you can view the plans by appointment. There is a model of the development and there are people there to answer your questions. I did not ask about what will be built when. The pics there are pretty much what we've already seen. I know some people aren't impressed by this drop in centre but I found it quite informative and had my questions answered, though I thought of about 10 more after I'd left :bash:

Just tried several times to post a lengthy repy about why the Winckley Square competition winner is shit - but this site's screwing me over. I'll try again tomorrow. I'm pressing 'submit reply' now. This post is just to see if the SC site is working?

At soddin last. Next time, I'll type everything into word and copy and paste. Recommend you all do the same

Well, I will be going before it closes. If you want me to get any questions answered for you, don't hesitate to ask. Same goes for anyone else :)

Lemme guess, 500 internal server error? I've just spent 5 minutes retyping the same bloody post TWICE. I should have copied and pasted it the first time it buggered up.

Crappy SSC :bash:

The Logo and slogan, "Never by halves", are also fairly weedy.

It's just a mis-spelling of the Preston drinking slogan "Never buy halves".

Is the model actually any good? any chance of pics of it?

This Lib/Dem MP wants the Preston - Southport line reopened: http://www.lep.co.uk/news/Call-for-new-12m-rail.4115065.jp

£12m seems remarkably little for such a crucial link - it would definitely cost more to reopen the direct route, which was so thoughtlessly allowed to be blocked by our politicians and developers.

Its now official: The bus station has got to go (http://www.lep.co.uk/news/Bus-horror-aunt-fights-for.4114395.jp). Or, at very least, the subways that link it to the city centre have got to be replaced by something better.

This would not have happened if there were a covered walkway allowing people ground level egress from the bus station (see page 91 of this thread).

It also wouldnt happen if we had a bus station which worked. I would still be willing to bet that people would cross the apron getting to orkskirk road, ringroad, lord street. Not forgetting the legions of Cardinal Newman Students. Therefore this covered walkway would be useless.

First thing my wife said when she saw the LEP report on the bus station accident was "God I used to cross like that." So did I on occasion. This is all down to the poor design of the current station, plus lack of care by a Preston Bus driver, something that can be witnessed any day.

Chorley Bus Station is very similar to the new one at Lancaster. As for "better knowledge" of Lancaster, no, it's just having better knowledge before passing judgement. A fairly basic thing.

At the end of the day, the man in question is quite accurate in suggesting that the whole place is basically a machine for getting money out of one set of pockets and into another, much smaller number of pockets.

Once again, I must ask Riversider if you work? To deride Tithebarn for money making dismisses anything that does the same thing, including working for a salary. Plus, it appears that it will create a number of new jobs, including 800 at one of the country's best employers. You think this is bad....

Lots more I want to say, but RS will probably ignore it all, so this once I can't be arsed.

Will try and visit the drop-in centre over the weekend or on Tuesday.

Riversider, whether it's true or not the official verdict I was told at the Tithebarn Information Centre is that the bus station is suffering from concrete cancer and it will be demolished. If not by Grosvenor, then just for the heck of it. So get used to it.

Riversider, whether it's true or not the official verdict I was told at the Tithebarn Information Centre is that the bus station is suffering from concrete cancer and it will be demolished. If not by Grosvenor, then just for the heck of it. So get used to it.

This is correct.

The bus station was tested for concrete cancer around 2000. I'm pretty sure the results came out positive, but not at levels that were not at dangerous levels at the time.

I'd be very surprised, very high quality concrete was used in the construction of the bus station. People have spread all kinds of rumours about the bus station structure, none of which they have backed up with fact, this is regular behaviour when a building gets in the way of a profit-making opportunity.

You're right to pick me up on my comment about Lancaster Bus Station - I really should have checked.

Now that the plans are there - can anyone tell me if they include a 'changing places' toilet for severely disabled people? If the development can at least make the City Centre more accessible for this group then it will not all be bad. I know that St Georges already have one, so the glittering Tithebarn would be well behind on at least one important factor if they do not include one in their own development.

Yeah, the concrete was high quality when it was built-four decades ago. Yes it has been maintained, but look at the facts. It is an old and outdated building, and any old building will suffer more wear and tear than a new one, no matter how good the materials are, or the building methods are.

Now that the plans are there - can anyone tell me if they include a 'changing places' toilet for severely disabled people? If the development can at least make the City Centre more accessible for this group then it will not all be bad. I know that St Georges already have one, so the glittering Tithebarn would be well behind on at least one important factor if they do not include one in their own development.

Both the department stores would have to have at least one each by law (Disability Discrimination Act), as well as baby changing facilities. I would imagine that the shopping centre portion of the development would have one, and the cinema.

Oh yes, I was going to mention!!!

This month has been a record month for posts on the Preston thread, beating the last record of 109 in November 2005 :cool:

Just thought you'd like to know! This is how things stand up to now for this year on 2006/7 :cheers:

http://img357.imageshack.us/img357/5198/sscmay2008wp6.jpg

It's just a mis-spelling of the Preston drinking slogan "Never buy halves".

:lol: very true

but why would you ever buy a half? or a single for that matter?!!

Accura, I am not talking about 'bog-standard' disabled loos.
'Changing Places' are specially designed state of the art toilets for adults with severe disabilities, they have hoists and changing tables so that it's possible to change the person's pad if they wear one.

Having such a toilet means that whole families who would otherwise be forced to stay at home can get into town and enjoy it with the rest of us.

St Georges already have one, as does the Trafford Centre, so Tithebarn will be miles behind if they don't get one too.

I see. I'm not sure about them to be honest. I doubt details like that are being implemented yet. However, a good indicator would be whether or not the Liverpool One masterplan has them.

I shall tell you if it does as i am going when it opens. I hate crowds :)

A bit of a tangeant, but what happened with that second Wetherspoons they were tying to open? Also was it in a nice building? Most cities have really nice wetherspoons in old converted buildings (there's some great ones up here in Newcastle) but the one in Preston is pretty rank, any ideas?

I think the current tenant objected, plus its part of the site for the new bus station.
This is the building. In the new photo in the centre, the disgusting grey 60's one...
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1333/1381366412_7e7a5011ee_o.jpg

Even crapper than the current one IMO!

Yeah it is, Im glad they didnt get that one!

Shame they didnt bid for the old bank that went to the amusement arcade company.

This would not have happened if there were a covered walkway allowing people ground level egress from the bus station (see page 91 of this thread).
This would not have happened if we had a decently designed bus station IN THE RIGHT PLACE - more like.

Hey Tark, would this be your dad by any chance?

http://www.lep.co.uk/news/Winckley-Square-design-misses-the.4125378.jp

:)

Visited the Tithebarn Info Centre place yesterday. Seemed perfectly adequate to me in conveying the plans.

The new bus station is 40 bays in size which appears to be concurrent with current usage. I did question the future expansion potential and was told that it had been designed using future projections of demand. Not wholly convinced of that, but I do think it is of an adequate size. It was also suggested that the bus station could be expanded further if needed, don't know how practical that would be. The question around connectivity with the station using a shuttle bus was acknowledged but no actual response was given! Shame.

About 700 extra parking spaces, think we all knew that anyway, so the bus station car park is not lost in anyway.

The Market Car park is being refurbished and one level will be extended into the new development between it and the outdoor market which will contain the cinema on the upper floors and restaurants at ground level.

Apparantly both The Mall and Fishergate centres are both supportive of the scheme due to the potential increased footfall in Preston CC.

I asked what would be done to stop too many existing retailers just moving into the new areas. It is accepted that some will but believed that other major retailers such as those in FG and TM are "anchored" enough not to move.

From the animation being screened, it looks like the indoor markets and Holiday Inn half of the bus station will be demolished first with the John Lewis, car park and cinema building going up first. Presumably the bus station will also be built too. So, life could be tricky whilst half the car park has gone.

It appears that the current outdoor market will become the "indoor" market, with the rest being in the surrounding streets. Initial look seems to suggest no major loss in capacity.

A good selection of comments are available to view. Many are constructive, such as "I like it but....", many are positive, just "great, can't wait" and there are plenty of negative ones, the majority seem to say "leave the bus station alone. Some give no reason, some are written in a way that you'd think the bus station was being relocated to Manchester!! Seems that one straight road in unacceptable compared to subways and verious lefts and rights! These just suggest a basic fear of change and Tithebarn need to manage this better.

Oh, and one final note: it is very definitely still just a masterplan nothing in terms of architecture etc is finalised. I also hope there will be some improvements made here and said so on my comments card. There could also be more than just a cinema for leisure, a pity bowling or something could not be added.

Suggestions that say 'leave the bus station alone' are not 'negative' at all, they are offering a constructive alternative to downgrading our public transport capacity.

Developers have a knack of painting everyone who disagrees even slightly with their grandiose 'visions' as being 'negative'.

Riversider, wake up. You cannot possibly downgrade from what we already have (a horrible, outdated, brutalist monstrosity which is far bigger than it really needs to be). A new bus station would add new facilities, would be in a better position and would have better access for pedestrians.
Thenew bus station will add a lot to Preston's public transport and will do anything but 'downgrade' the public transport network.

Riversider, wake up. You cannot possibly downgrade from what we already have (a horrible, outdated, brutalist monstrosity which is far bigger than it really needs to be). A new bus station would add new facilities, would be in a better position and would have better access for pedestrians.
Thenew bus station will add a lot to Preston's public transport and will do anything but 'downgrade' the public transport network.
Not to mention far better access and facilities for the elderly and disabled. The present building regulations are far more accomodating for these people than when the current bus station was built.
JonH Might be :)
He was a partner in the Preston office of BDP when Keith Ingham designed the bus station, and although design sessions and group crits were part of the office ethos in those days, its wrong for Coatsieboy's article to suggest that he had anything to do with the actual design of it. It is an interesting building which has outlived its useful life and has, through being in the wrong place, strangled the life out of the city centre, in particular to the east of it.

Suggestions that say 'leave the bus station alone' are not 'negative' at all, they are offering a constructive alternative to downgrading our public transport capacity.

Oh for God's sake! (slams head into brick wall!) Or better: :bash:

The reducing the number of bays DOES NOT AUTOMATICALLY REDUCE CAPACITY. The important element is the UTILISATION of those bays.

Developers have a knack of painting everyone who disagrees even slightly with their grandiose 'visions' as being 'negative'.

Dunno how they deal with you, you disagree with virtually anything planned for Preston. (Apart from FG2 - just a shopping centre!!!)

Hey, I've only just joined up to this site, but I'm interested in the new Tithebarn project.
Being 15 years old, I'm eager to see what my city is going to be like in a few years time, and this is the perfect place to do it.

Anyway, I still haven't visited the place with the Masterplan etc, is it near St John's? Near the market?

Also, does anyone have any renders of the new bus station?

Just got back from Liverpool One and i must say its amazing. Its like being in a totally different place. The Buildings are of excellent quality and there was a real buzz about the place. There are very few flaw that i noticed. Though there are afew, which is expected. For instance the stairwell in John Lewis is totally glass and south facing. So its a sauna thrown in for free. Strand Street Car park is amazing. Totally blown away by it really having seen it being built from behind hoarings.

It fills me with confidence that Grosvenor are doing Preston as well. If the quality of design and materials are the same as in Liverpool then any doubts about Tithebarn will be blown out of the water. South John Street, the part closest to being a shopping mall has even swayed me as to how it would work in Preston. I actually like it. Cant wait for the rest to open really.

Riversider i suggest you go to Liverpool One and see what it is that Preston could achieve, then again you wont. You would rather just moan...

Out of interest how many acres is Tithebarn? I know Liverpool One is something like 42.5, just wondering how the two compare. Though i am still not happy with the demise of Lancastria House. Also why the hell is the Market Car Park staying. Thought it wasnt stable? Also with them recladding Lowthian, i thought this was in the Tithbarn area?

Yay for Tithebarn!

The new bus station will only be as big as it is because of the resistance to getting rid of our current bus station. While the new bus station's capacity may reflect current utilisation, it has no room for future expansion, for trams, rickshaws, monorails, bike sharing schemes, or whatever wonderful ideas people come up with in the future to deal with the increasing shortage of oil. The current bus station does, and is in a better, more central location, rather than tucked away at the bottom of a hill.

I hope the centre will be as beautiful and useful as you say it is. I hope it doesn't cost us our capacity to cope with future public transport needs, our market and the individual character of our city.

My main reason for favourable comments about FG2 is that they have been much more honest - not pretending that it is anything more than what it actually is - a shopping centre.

Yes FG2 is a shopping centre, it offers nothing more to Preston apart from shops. Shopping centres in there nature are designed to keep people within there doors. A bigger one of these will have a negative impact on Preston.

Im using Liverpool One as an example because it is similar to being planned here and its done by the same people.

If Tithebarn follows the same idea is Liverpool One then there will be no doors, keeping shoppers within it and presenting a physical barrier between the areas. Liverpool one is fully intergrated into the city fabric. Its streets!

STREETS!

Tithebarn also offers leisure facilities, something not currently present in the city centre and something which it needs. Also apartments to boost city centre living. Something which should be encouraged, more people in centres means less people using cars as they can walk to work/shops or use transport within the city centre, strengthening the case for Preston to get a tram system. And also benefiting the environment. Not only that the markets will be refurbished, you can argue with this all you like but the fact is the markets are one of the shittest areas within the city centre. Also Deans Court Chambers are going to be converted into the new library so that the Harris can be a fully fledged gallery/museum. Now you tell me how all this is still a shopping centre like FG2. Just out of intrest which came first, Tithebarn or FG2?

As for the bus station, have you actually used it? in the 40 years of its use has it ever been used anywhere near capacity? As for it being some sort of interchange it blatantly isnt. Taxis dont even use the rank! If by some amazing accurance we do need a bigger bus station and the new one cant be expanded then hopefully that would force LCC to build an interchange at the Train station!

By the way dont you realise an expanded Fishergate will have a negative impact on the Market end of town? It will pull people there, Tithebarn is needed to pull people back.

an expanded Fishergate will have a negative impact on the Market end of town? It will pull people there, Tithebarn is needed to pull people back.

You are talking as if Preston has a limited number of shoppers, for whom the different shopping areas will compete.

If this is true then Tithebarn will suck off the shoppers from rest of Preston, emptying people from the traditional shopping streets, which already have many empty shops.

You'd better hope that you are wrong, and that the developer's hype is right. (I.e. people will be drawn like zombies every week from the rest of Lancashire into Preston by its glittering new shopping centre, and, by implication, that it will be their shopping streets that will suffer, not ours).

I suspect you are more right than what they are.

Incidentally - I'll be visiting Liverpool soon, drawn not by it's shopping centre, but by the fact they have a Klimt exhibition at the Tate.

Im talking of the market area in general which is in decline and has been for years. Compare the amount of shoppers you get on Fishergate compared to the markets. An expansion of Fishergate will further suck people away from the markets. The area which is the centre of Preston. Tithbarn will adress the balance issue putting the markets back firmly in the centre of Preston.

Preston does have a limited number of shoppers. The task is keeping the ones we have so they dont go to other places such as Manchester and Liverpool. We also need to attract shoppers from other places. One of the reasons that Blackpool objects as there retail core is already rubbish in comparison to Prestons.

Its all about competition. If Preston takes shoppers away from other retail areas then those retil areas will have to compete with the city centre. Much in the same way that The city centre has to compete with retail parks within Preston and other retail centres. Would you prefere that Preston did nothing? Other Towns and cities certainly arnt.

I would be suprised if you did go to Liverpool for L1 seen as how anti shopping you seem to be (apart from of course is its an actual shopping centre). Hopefully with the Harris as a fully fledged gallery and museum people will be attracted to Preston not just for the shopping :)

Preston has to redevelop itself in order to remain competetive, especially with L1 having just appeared. There are now two major retail parks merely hours away (L1 and The Trafford Centre) that Preston has to compete with. Tithebarn will help Preston immensely, as it will bring new leisure facilities as well as shops and bars. The new bus station will also give the public transport network a revamp and will allow the disabled better access to the city centre.
Preston cant stand still, Riversider. If we do, we will lose out.

@ beoeoz, no, I havent seen what the new bus station will look like either. I hope to be able to get to the Tithebarn information place, but I doubt I'll be able to with my exams.

The new bus station will only be as big as it is because of the resistance to getting rid of our current bus station. While the new bus station's capacity may reflect current utilisation, it has no room for future expansion, for trams, rickshaws, monorails, bike sharing schemes, or whatever wonderful ideas people come up with in the future to deal with the increasing shortage of oil. The current bus station does, and is in a better, more central location, rather than tucked away at the bottom of a hill.

Why is the current bus station better placed for a tram than the new one? Bearing in mind the twists and turns a tram would need to make to get to the current bus station!

Plus, if you think the new bus station is at the bottom of a hill, I hate to see how you would cope with the Lake District!!!

With all this moaning about "the hill" can I ask what makes Preston's OAPs so much more incapable than Lancaster's? Those that use the bus station there seem to be able to cope with getting up the steeper hill to the city centre there without any noticable bitching and whining.

My main reason for favourable comments about FG2 is that they have been much more honest - not pretending that it is anything more than what it actually is - a shopping centre.

Yet Tithebarn can claim to be more than a shopping centre, because it is. Only a very stupid person would continually claim otherwise.

In addition, FG2's newest details show it as being very dull and bland.


I am hoping to visit Liverpool soon to see Liverpool 1 and give me further actual experience and knowledge on which to judge TB.

One thing that concerns me was last night's North West Tonight which inferred that the greedy, money grabbing Grosvenor have made a loss of £190m on L1. Plus there is an issue with Winckley Square's ownership that may impact it's redevelopment. So maybe TB will fall through, Winckley will stay as is, and Preston will keep such wonders as the indoor market, the St John Centre and be nothing more than Primark and poundshops.

Maybe then, Riversider will be happy.... :ohno:

Oh and Riversider, I would strongly suggest that you look at the Liverpool 1 thread elsewhere on this site.

In particular, take note of the mass of positive comments by Liverpool residents of the project and the improvements they believe it has bought to their city.

I await you finding reason to slag them off..... :ohno:

I think the reason thel lost 190m is due to rising costs due to inflation, the price of steal etc. No doubt they will make the money back through the sale of appartments/rents. I bet he will find negative commenst i feel "its just a shopping centre" being thrown in somewhere. Well as a forward message that is because the rest of it is being finished and only shopping was open for phase one.

I personally hate the Fishergate Centre. Its ugly and has no interesting features. Personally i think this building does more damage to preston architecturally than cyristal house ever did. And now there going to MAKE IT BIGGER ?????

I personally hate the Fishergate Centre. Its ugly and has no interesting features. Personally i think this building does more damage to preston architecturally than cyristal house ever did. And now there going to MAKE IT BIGGER ????? You're just being anti-progress Captain Jason, a dyed in the wool, negative, stick in the mud who cannot or will not understand how developments like this will take Preston into it's glorious future as the third City of the North West and make everyone's lives so much better...
__________________

On the Grosvenor loss at Liverpool 1:
Maybe they see the £190m 'loss' on the L1 development as an investment for the future, which it is better for their publicity to paint as a 'loss'.

If it is indeed a loss, then Preston could be much more loss making - more expensive raw materials, higher fuel prices, higher labour costs, higher interest rates (if credit is available at all), and with a recession looming, lower takings by the shops who would be needed to rent there.

There are also serious questions about who all these 'luxury apartments' will be rented to - there are already many developments locally and nationally unable to find buyers or renters for this type of property.

The type of property that is actually needed is reasonably priced accomodation for working class families, but these are the last people that developers think about.

Meanwhile, Neil Holt of the Planning Inspectorate describes the developers/councillors claims that Tithebarn will start by 2010 as 'Somewhat optimistic'...

One thing that concerns me was last night's North West Tonight which inferred that the greedy, money grabbing Grosvenor have made a loss of £190m on L1. Plus there is an issue with Winckley Square's ownership that may impact it's redevelopment. So maybe TB will fall through, Winckley will stay as is, and Preston will keep such wonders as the indoor market, the St John Centre and be nothing more than Primark and poundshops.

Maybe then, Riversider will be happy

If as you suggest, Tithebarn fails, it will not make me happy - it will make me angry that over a decade of council officers time and energy, and my money, which could have been spent addressing Preston's real problems, has been thrown away because of overblown, overambitious and unsympathetic projects being designed that put all our development eggs into one fragile basket, and did not listen to the wishes of Preston people.

If it is indeed a loss, then Preston could be much more loss making

Liverpool 1 is by far the largest scheme of it's type ever undertaken in Europe. BDP are the only firm large enough to cope with the over all project planning and new methodologies have had to be developed to have one architectural practice working under the auspices of another. Some relationships have worked very well and some have proved problematic. It was a steep leaning curve for all concerned in the delivery of the project but much has been learned which will be incorporated into the methodology employed in Preston, resulting in great savings.

It is encouraging to hear how well L1 is looking and I must pay it a visit. Grosvenor have a track record of Investing in Quality rather than spending for profit which is why they were introduced to PCC as the only developer that could cope with a scheme as large Tithebarn whilst also providing a suitably dignified and well designed and built legacy. People who think all developers are "greedy" are as stupid as people that think all muslims are terrorists.

Now your just taking the piss

How am i anti progress, have i at any point said that Fishergate shouldnt go ahead? I hate the place as its ugly but at no point have i said that it shouldnt be expanded. If it is to be expanded then it is important that Tithebarn goes ahead to keep the spread of Prestons retail centre, otherwise its going to gravatate towards Fishergate away from the markets, making them sink further into the pit they are already in.

There is a demand for apartments in Preston, you just have to see how fact cubic and its lack of parking spaces sold out. As it is there are very few places to actually live in the city centre. As i have also said more people living in the centre would also make it more sense to have some sort of tram system in the centre to move these people around the centre, also having the benefit that shoppers can use them.

Like Tark i agree that the lessons that Grosvenor have learnt on Liverpool One will be implimented on Tithebarn, making it less likely that it will go over budget. As tark also says Grosvenor believe in quality, you just have to look at L1 to see this. Even the car parks are amazing not just the functional concrete slabs you usually see. For example the Trafford Centre. I think the opening of L1 has been a bigger success than most people thought. My hope is that this can be replicated in Preston and with Grosvenor at the healm i think it can be done.

So whats you granvision for Preston City Centre? What would you do to keep it competative with other cities? Or would you just prefere it to stay the same, keep the bus station, st johns and the market as they are? No tangents about Prestons various estates. I want to know what you think should be done with the city, Prestons heart.

much has been learned which will be incorporated into the methodology employed in Preston, resulting in great savings.

You surely can't be claiming that improving the efficiency of the way firms of architects work together will save the equivalent of £190m?

Grosvenor have a track record of Investing in Quality rather than spending for profit

Grosvenor have never taken a short term view - they follow in the tradition of the British aristocracy who used to think generations ahead in terms of land and it's value - that's why they value the land that the bus station is stood on so highly, because it has such high future profit potential.

Now your just taking the piss
Sorry Jason, I was just parroting the insults that get thrown at anyone that questions any detail of the grand plans of these arrogant developers. Rather than answering your points, (which are all true about the ugliness of the FG centre and the anodyne nature of the plans), they would rather insult you, as I have learned so quickly on these boards.

Surely Grosvenor taking a long term view is beneficial? Instead of building for the now, like many of the apartment complexes built in Manchester, they are building for the future. Surely something that will benefit Preston. Forward thinking. The value of the land in the tithebarn area is only due to its potential for redevelopment. Thus minus the crap that is currently on it. Take away what is on it, regenerate and the land value will increase. Thats the point.

The reason you get it so much on this board is that you are so close minded when it comes to Tithebarn yet seem to be pleased with the plans for FG2. You also chose to ignore peoples posts and enjoy saying that its all to make a developer money. Developers make money, we live in a capitalist country, thats the point. There is no disputing the fact that the Tithebarn area as it stands is pretty much a waste. So much potential just waiting to be unlocked. Without Grosvenor and Tithebarn the area will not improve. The council doesnt have the money to do it alone. Whats the alternative? The fact is Preston needs to stay competative.

On a separate note whats the chancs of M&S being the second ancor? With them spending millions on their St Georges (i refuse to call it the mall, so generic, and pink) store is it really feasable that after afew years they will move out? What other anchors could the area pick up. Theres not a chance in hell of Harvey Nicks or Selfridges.

I'm not really that keen on FG2, just see them as honest in comparison with the hype surrounding Tithebarn.
The fact that you hate FG2 so much, yet still acquiesce in it's expansion (or seemingly even actively support it), shows how deeply the developer's mindset can infect someone - my mind is not the one that is set in concrete.

If something is no good, or not worth the price we will pay for it, or does not help the people who it should be helping, there is absolutely nothing wrong with pointing that out. That is the message I am trying to convey.

I dont support it, it just dont care if it happens or not. No big loss to Preston if it doesnt. However if it does and Tithebarn does not then it is likely the market area will suffer. Comparing FG2 and Tithebarn is like comparing a Morris Minor to a Ferrari, with Tithebarn being the latter. Tithebarn is 700 million of investment within Preston, whereas FG2 is 27 million. Big Difference. Tithebarn improves Prestons ability to compete with the wider region and improves a run down area of the city. FG2 will inflate the owners profits, nothing else. It will do nothing to intergrate with Preston but plenty to suck people away from the rest of Preston.

It really annoys me that you completely ignore any benefit that Tithebarn will do to Preston. You seem belong to that group of people in Preston who believe there should be no change in Preston and that change equals bad. Do you honestly believe that Tithebarn will provide absolutely no benefit whatsoever to Preston as a city?

I don't know how to multi-quote from various posts, but I'll give it a go.

You surely can't be claiming that improving the efficiency of the way firms of architects work together will save the equivalent of £190m?
Quite right; this is an example of just one field of many in which experience leads to savings.


Grosvenor have never taken a short term view - they follow in the tradition of the British aristocracy who used to think generations ahead in terms of land and it's value - that's why they value the land that the bus station is stood on so highly, because it has such high future profit potential.
Fucking brilliant. A person who has never met or conversed with any Grosvenor (or any other developer) executive or senior employee knows all about their working methods, practices and motivations. I've spent hours with Grosvenor's and other developers top brass and can only talk of what they have done, and not speculate about whether they've been sold the Tithebarn land for a price to do what they want with - which as far as I know in this case they haven't. Grosvenor sell as well as buy, but I have no ide how long they hold on to things. I do know that the developers of Trafford Park sold up 2 years after completion for 3x what their total development cost was, thus prooving it would not have affected the scheme's viability of putting the parking underground rather than having acres of black tarmac around what is just a tarted up brick shed.
The Tithebarn and Trafford should not really be compaired though, as building in a city centre is much more complicated thana large flat vacant brownfield site.

To me both Tithebarn and FG2 have been designed to suck people off from the rest of Preston, and will have a detrimental effect on Preston's traditional shopping streets.

It has not been shown that the massive expansion of shopping capacity will be matched by a massive expansion in the number of shoppers.

My personal vision for Preston would have started by listening to ordinary Prestonians and what they want, rather than spending a decade of 'cloak and dagger' as one council official put it, in secretive planning and talks.

My objections to Tithebarn are as much about HOW it has been decided as WHAT has been decided. Preston people were kept in the dark from the beginning, and that usually means that what we get will not match up to what we need.

If we are going to give one developer monopoly control over the key central area of Preston, then there should be much more democratic accountability.

L1 looks fantastic, especially the undergroung car park.

A underground car park is paramount for Tithebarn, the last thing we need is another concrete monstrosity in the city centre.

woah, things have really kicked off while ive been gone! :crazy:

L1 looks fantastic, especially the undergroung car park.

A underground car park is paramount for Tithebarn, the last thing we need is another concrete monstrosity in the city centre.

Agreed. We have too many fugly multi-storey car parks. The one near Lowthian is particularly awful.

That entire line of buildings along the Ringway is abysmal. Its a massive shame that they were not included in Tithebarn. I think the market car park might be getting some kind of refurbishment though.

by refurbishment i hope you mean demolition :)
Completely agree about the underground parking, how about a nice big public space ontop a la Liverpool :)

Back to riversider...

If you expand the shops people will come, look at Liverpool. Its all about taking risks, take no risks and play it safe, you get nothing. What do Prestonians need then? An oversized bus station which most people avoid by getting off early? The lovely st johns and its wonderous selection of shops and stunning archiecture (yes that was sarcasm)

I hope it does affect Prestons shopping street and forces them to up there game. Look at Liverpool. Other shop and shopping centres have realised they need to redevelop and refurbish to compete with L1. Competition is a good thing. The retail spread will still be maintained as you will have big anchor stores in Tithebarn (John Lewis), St Georges (M&S) and Fishergate (Debenhams). This will ensure that there is still a spread of people.

There is demogratic accountability, what do you think the local elections are for. Fun? To be honest there are far to many people that are closed minded in this city and want things to stay how they are like Preston is some precious historic artifact. Well its not, its a living breathing city and cities have to change or risk being left behind. How do you feel the democratic process should have been. Opinion polls every 5 mins asking the public what they want, slowing everything down and costing money. We elect the council to represent us. Its their job.

Yet again you avoid the question of what you would do opposed to Tithebarn. Seen as you think the whole plan is so rotten i want to know what you think should be done.

To me both Tithebarn and FG2 have been designed to suck people off from the rest of Preston, and will have a detrimental effect on Preston's traditional shopping streets.
Tithebarn is designed to restore Preston's lost streets and save the civic core. The Fishergate Centre (both the old and new development) does exactly the opposite.

It has not been shown that the massive expansion of shopping capacity will be matched by a massive expansion in the number of shoppers.
Preston (believe it or not) is one of the fastest growing cities in the country. Not to mention that we are (and with Tithebarn will continue to be) the top retail destination in Lancashire.

My personal vision for Preston would have started by listening to ordinary Prestonians and what they want, rather than spending a decade of 'cloak and dagger' as one council official put it, in secretive planning and talks.
People were surveyed about what should happen with the area. Thats why we have Tithebarn as it is.
And as for 'cloak and dagger'... it wouldn't be a very sensible idea to put such an important development in the hands of 'ordinary' people, most of whom will know nothing about how to regenerate a city centre.

My objections to Tithebarn are as much about HOW it has been decided as WHAT has been decided. Preston people were kept in the dark from the beginning, and that usually means that what we get will not match up to what we need.
A lot of details will have been kept quiet. Publishing every single detail as it happens is time consuming and costly, eventually slowing progress. I feel like we have been given everything we need to know through the press. You may also not be aware of this, but if Preston people are that passionate about this then they could have gone and seen the draft plans themselves. I did a couple of years back, of course those plans were different to what we have now.

L1 looks fantastic, especially the undergroung car park.

A underground car park is paramount for Tithebarn, the last thing we need is another concrete monstrosity in the city centre.

The last scheme for the Tithebarn that I saw WAS just multi-storey car parks (well almost)..

I think the market car park might be getting some kind of refurbishment though.
I was assured that the Market Street car park is getting a TOTAL refurbishment, not just a half-assed job.

You cant polish a turd. Then again some of the results they have achieved in Liverpool could prove me wrong.

LOL you lot can be so fuckin miserable.

Maybe we should get it listed, you know, for shits and giggles :)

Maybe we should get it listed, you know, for shits and giggles :)

Don't go giving Riversider ideas now!:)

I've already listed it-as one of many shitty buildings in Preston that would look better in the form of rubble.

But it has fantastic lines and form, an amazing example of post war architecture. Truely an icon of Preston. Demolishing it will reduce Prestons car parking capacity and give money to evil developers.

SAVE PRESTON MARKET CAR PARK

:)

Its a multi-storey car park, not Tower 42.
And I'm sure there are any number of companies with fantastic explosives.
Sorry Riversider, but the car park is one fugly building.

I've already listed it-as one of many shitty buildings in Preston that would look better in the form of rubble.

NO NO NO!

Instead of demolition, we should be thinking more along the lines of a covered walkway!

Save the car park, renovate it.. make it more accessible, and develop around it.. be a shame to lose it

For all those who enjoy the smell of tramps piss, skaters having a place to make a nuisance of themselves and a lack of lighting....SAVE THE MARKET CAR PARK!:lol:

Even I can't get myself into a lather about a multi-story car park. (And I detect a slight hint that someone is getting parodied here...)

I've looked at the L1 pictures and agree with all of you that the best thing about it is the underground car parking - a fantastic design around a central hub that one person described as 'Liverpools 3rd cathedral'.

Ironic that we should be building temples to our cars - I suppose worshipping them would be cheaper than sticking petrol in them nowadays.

Of course the Tithebarn project fails to include the underground car park, which is about the only thing that makes L1 interesting or unique - instead it will bring us yet another unsightly multi-story providing plenty of opportunities for those micturation smells and skaters.

Even I can't get myself into a lather about a multi-story car park. (And I detect a slight hint that someone is getting parodied here...)

I've looked at the L1 pictures and agree with all of you that the best thing about it is the underground car parking - a fantastic design around a central hub that one person described as 'Liverpools 3rd cathedral'.

Ironic that we should be building temples to our cars - I suppose worshipping them would be cheaper than sticking petrol in them nowadays.

Of course the Tithebarn project fails to include the underground car park, which is about the only thing that makes L1 interesting or unique - instead it will bring us yet another unsightly multi-story providing plenty of opportunities for those micturation smells and skaters.
Finally! A post from the man by the river I fully agree with - and a nice bit of wit in the middle! Now will you please just get back to posting your normal drivel that the Prestonians who come on this forum thoroughly disagree with. :nuts:

South John Street also makes it uniques, basically a shoping mall outside, its fantastic.

With the car park theres only one level thats truely under the ground level. the rest of it is above ground with the top level of South John Street and Derby Square filtering onto it at its own level, quaite amazing master planning really.

Visited Liverpool 1 yesterday, didn't use the underground car park however! Driving into Liverpool is a pet hate of mine, but fortunately someone recommended using Maghull park and ride. Recommended!

What has opened of L1 so far looks very good indeed, even if it is still only a relatively small chunk of the overall scheme. I am very intrigued by the rooftop park between John Lewis and Debenhams. South John Street gets the balance between being undercover and outdoors, Paradise Street will be a nice wide space when completed. Wall Street is a bit of a canyon though!

One of the biggest positives of the scheme is how it now links the city centre with Albert Dock, something that even the locals were being pretty stunned by!

Fabulous John Lewis store, can't believe that Preston's is planned to be larger by roughly one third. For the benefit of the man who constantly harps against JL being in Preston, I bought a new casual shirt for less than either Next/River Island/Debenhams etc. Also noticed them selling my all-in-one printer for £40 less than Currys and PC World and replacement cartridges for less than in Staples. Cracking good shop that caters for a very wide range of people/budgets as anyone who has actually been in one will know.

The only negatives I picked up on was the fact that it felt a little dingy on South John Street, mainly because none of the external lighting was on. Plus another concern is the fact that, although not in use, the centre's public toilets will cost 20p a go. However, there are plenty of alternatives in Debenhams and JL.

I look forward to going back on a day with better weather and flick between L1 and Albert Dock with ease.

Latest news is that the cost of building the new bus station was grossly underestimated - latest figure is £20m - actual figure that it finally ends up costing is anyone's guess.

All this when we have a much bigger, better situated bus station already.

Grossly underestimated? Its 5 million over, hardly a huge amount when you consider that Tithebarn is worth 700 million in investment. Bigger doesnt always mean better, its to big and half of it isnt used. Its uneconomical as a bus station.

By the way, does anyone know when there going to build the new bus station? Would i be to optimistic if i said they well start next year if they want it underway by 2010?

£15m to £20m is a price increase of 33% - I know architect types and builders are used to giving and receiving such sudden huge increases in estimates, the rest of us like to be told a price, and then stick to that price.

In terms of public transport, we're being kicked out of our house, told to move into a shed, and then being given the bill to build the shed...

Latest news is that the cost of building the new bus station was grossly underestimated - latest figure is £20m - actual figure that it finally ends up costing is anyone's guess.

Unless you've been living in a cave for the past couple of years you'll know we're heading towards a recession, and infortunately prices for materials and suchlike are going up. Add to that the global shortage of cranes and the increase in crane prices and you'll see where the extra money has come from.


All this when we have a much bigger,

Bigger isn't always better you know. Its the largest in Europe, and it really doesnt need to be considering the current bus usage in and out of Preston. I myself have never seen the bus station full, but maybe thats because I make sure I never use it. Added to that, the bus station takes up a lot of potentially valuable land for the developers to use. If Preston is to develop then somewhere along the line it will have to go. If the concrete caner that it has becomes major, then it will have to go anyway.
If places with 10 or 20 times Prestons' population dont need bus stations that big, we certainly dont need one.

This all brings up a very good point. Does Preston actually need a bus station, and why wouldnt simply using the stops already dotted around Preston suffice (Longridge has two busses every ten minutes crowding our town centre on a weekday, and we still dont even have a new central bus stop)?


better situated bus station already.
The site of the bus station is alright, but being right in the city centre, it isnt ideal. It is near to fishergate and St. Georges, but I think it would be better nearer either to UCLAN or to the train station.

This all brings up a very good point. Does Preston actually need a bus station, and why wouldnt simply using the stops already dotted around Preston
Substitute "stops" for new purpose built serviced nodes with a capacity of 5-6 buses each dotted around the city and this is what PCC has been angling for, but LCC insists on lumbering the town with another megolithic bus park in the wrong place. The former is far more convenient for all, especially those with mobility issues in terms of accessing their preferred destinations, while the latter will do nothing to aleviate the massive planning and public transportation problems caused by the existing facility.
LCC suck.

Gives a chance for a future regeneration project when the new bus station will be demolished and the buildings around it developed, just in time for the 2052 guild :nuts:

Gives a chance for a future regeneration project when the new bus station will be demolished and the buildings around it developed, just in time for the 2052 guild :nuts:
Target competion date just announced as 2054!

Just agreed a bet with MJG - if Tithebarn starts in 2010 I donate £10 to Rosemere, if it doesn't he donates £50 to Preston Women's Refuge.

Which of us do you think will win the bet?

UPDATE: we're having a bet on the completion date too - he's named 2020...

Just agreed a bet with MJG - if Tithebarn starts in 2010 I donate £10 to Rosemere, if it doesn't he donates £50 to Preston Women's Refuge.

Which of us do you think will win the bet?

UPDATE: we're having a bet on the completion date too - he's named 2020...

Tithebarn will probably start when the current economic climate goes away. If consumers arent spending as much and the massive debt that was racked up in the last boom is starting to haunt people, then no business is going to start up a new branch if they know that they arent going to make as much money out of it as they could.
It might start in 2010, but it all depends on how the economy performs.

As for your bet, I would at this point be inclined to say MJG would lose, however I dont know. As for completion, thats anyones guess.

For all those who enjoy the smell of tramps piss, skaters having a place to make a nuisance of themselves and a lack of lighting....SAVE THE MARKET CAR PARK!:lol:

I have to agree that is an accurate description of Market Car Park.:lol:

The Avenham Car Park however is a work of sheer beauty - works like a surrealist dream. One of only two decent 60s/70s building in the town - the other being the doomed bus station. Deserves listing

I cant actually tell if thats sarcasm. If its not then i am scared...

The Avenham Car Park however is a work of sheer beauty - works like a surrealist dream. One of only two decent 60s/70s building in the town - the other being the doomed bus station. Deserves listing

Wrong on a number of counts, at least as far as the 60's is concerned. Have a look at what is still universally recognised as the authority on the subject; Pevsner, (The Buildings of North Lancashire) - still available in all good bookshops. I have the 1972 edition, when the great architectural historian was still alive and active, but I don't think anything from that one has been edited out since with the benefit of hindsight.

Do we actually have any decent 60s/70s Buildings in the city?

Bus station is good but doesnt work, Guild hall is just a brick blob..... BT Tower???????

Do we actually have any decent 60s/70s Buildings in the city?


Well the one I was referring to mentioned by Pevsner is William (now Archbishop) Temple High School.

still available in all good bookshops.
So, not available in Preston then?

So, not available in Preston then?

Humour aside, I've seen it in Waterstones. Try the Harris Reference Library then?

Humour aside, I've seen it in Waterstones.
Sorry, I was joking!

Tis a book I wouldn't mind reading.

I did actually open it again yesterday - actually a 1969 edition. Amazing how many buildings it refers to have gone, particularly churches. So I hope any new edition has omitted them!

Don't know if anybody picked up on this back in March, its just the usual 6 month general business update from the council, with news of redevelopments. Most of it we already know about, but there is a few interesting points. Definitely worth a look:

http://www.preston-city.com/files/news/Publicity08%20-%20Final%20Version.pdf

I stand by my word and think the Avenham Car Park is a wonderful building. One of the best of its type I have come across anywhere. Love the way its works with the incline its built on. An extremly elegant building and absolutly dizzying inside, making it very easy to loose your car!

Can anyone tell me what is going to happen to the land on Stanley St where Barclays Bank used to be?

Don't know if anybody picked up on this back in March, its just the usual 6 month general business update from the council, with news of redevelopments. Most of it we already know about, but there is a few interesting points. Definitely worth a look:

http://www.preston-city.com/files/news/Publicity08%20-%20Final%20Version.pdf

All looks very familiar......*checks my archives*

06/2008/0482 Erection of eight storey building with basement car parking (accessed
via Guildhall Street), office accommodation (Class B1) at ground and
first floor levels and 45no. apartments at 2nd to 7th floor levels including
Type: Invalid application 6th and 7th floor roof terraces (following demolition of existing building)
Officer: Mr P Cocks
Ward: Town Centre
Parish:
44-56 Guildhall Street Preston
Grid Ref: SD 539291
Determination Type: Planning Committee
Applicant /Agent
Assetz Plc Assetz House Newby Road Hazel Grove Stockport Cheshire SK7 5DA
James Campbell Associates Ltd Campbell House 173 Rochdale Road Figrove Rochdale OL16 3BN

Looks like the Hotel scheme at this site has been scrapped

No surprise there - anyone who thought a hotel would work on that site is clueless. So clueless that although they found enough money to back paying for the scheme design and Planning Application, thay couldn't find anyone more sensible to pay for it.

Reporting of the Tithebarn CPO's in the LEP tonight. Obviously distressing for some smaller traders, though most would have seen this coming for years. Given a fair price, I hope they can make an opportunity for themselves from this happenstance.

Reporting of the Tithebarn CPO's in the LEP tonight. Obviously distressing for some smaller traders, though most would have seen this coming for years. Given a fair price, I hope they can make an opportunity for themselves from this happenstance.

One would hope that something could be arranged temporarily for some and accomodation found for them in the new development.

Off to L1 on Wednesday and will be shown around by the folks from BDP. If I pick up any snippets of interesting information, it'll be posted here, of course! If anyone's got any particular questions from they've seen of it, let me know and I'll see if can pose them. :)

How long til attentions switch from Liverpool to Preston?

2010 hopefully :)
Though when it does i feel it should have its own thread :)
Any word on whats going on with the Linen Buildings?

I've been getting a number of phonecalls from Countryside Properties recently about the Linen Buildings (I think they're under the impression I want to buy one) but I've never been home when they call.

They've been put on hold Accura..

from the LEP
Credit crunch stalls city centre apartments plan
A flagship development to regenerate part of Preston city centre has been put on ice due to the plummeting housing market.

Developer Countryside Properties has said its plans to build 600 apartments on the former Booth's site on Queen Street are on hold as it reviews its entire property portfolio.

It said it has no start date set for the massive Linen Buildings development despite winning a High Court legal battle to get the go-ahead for the work.
full article (http://www.lep.co.uk/business/On-hold.4190872.jp)

No big loss, they wernt anything special anyhow. Hopefully we will se something proposed after or during Tithebarn which will be more special. Why dont they use this area as the CBD, massive potential for offices and expansion, and its on the Ring Road. Much more appropriate than Friargate?

No big loss, they weren't anything special anyhow. Hopefully we will se something proposed after or during Tithebarn which will be more special.

Quite right - a very uninspiring scheme. Better right than now, so this could be a blessing.

The apartments that are part of the Tithebarn scheme are protected from the credit crunch, world economic recession, collapsing house prices and a shortage of childless yuppies, by a special kind of magic...

http://www.lep.co.uk/news/Flats-planned-despite-sale-slump.4201768.jp

Flats planned despite sale slump

A £6m apartment and office complex is being lined up for Preston even though city flats are not selling.

Assetz Plc wants to put up an eight-storey building with 45 flats and two floors of offices in Guildhall Street.

The firm has submitted a planning application to Preston Council and says the development will be aimed at first-time buyers.

The applicant, based in Stockport, recently bought the land from Leyland-based Newparcs Property Group which previously won consent to build a seven-floor hotel with 104 rooms on the same site.

ADDITIONAL REPORTING: www.skyscrapercity.com:lol:

Stop being so bloody childish. The Linen buildings should have been finished before Tithebarn even starts. Tithebarn doesnt start till 2010 at the earliest, by which time the current doom and gloom economy should be over. Plus if Linen was a huge amount of apartments, dont know how many exactly but there was afew towers there so would have been a fair few. This means more chance of the ones in Tithebarn going ahead as there will be less apartments in the city centre which would be ready for around 2014, thats 6 years away. If the country is still in the state it is now in 2014 then god help us.

500 apartments for sale. Sounds abit steep. Look how quick Cyristal House, sorry Cubic sold out. Dont think this will happen anyway. My rule is never trust a company which chuck a z on the end or numbers in the name. For me the fact the development company name says it all. Assetz (yo were so street!). Is the existing building still standing?

Eye - It is used to be a snooker hall, but has been empty for years. A dull turd of a building

Eye - It is used to be a snooker hall, but has been empty for years. A dull turd of a building
Average Victoriana. It, the gap next to it and the Tiggis building was where BDP was before they moved to Vernon St, incidentally.

The apartments that are part of the Tithebarn scheme are protected from the credit crunch, world economic recession, collapsing house prices and a shortage of childless yuppies, by a special kind of magic...

There is still very heavy demand for apartments in the city centre. Countryside Properties putting the Linen Buildings on hold is a nationwide and private decision.

Anybody else think that the best place for the new Bus Station would be where the shops like Aldi, Streetwise Sports and Blockbuster are currently placed?

Makes more sense than putting it on Manchester bloody Road.

Anybody else think that the best place for the new Bus Station would be where the shops like Aldi, Streetwise Sports and Blockbuster are currently placed?

Makes more sense than putting it on Manchester bloody Road.

Not the best, but infinitely preferable. A sketch sheme was prepared for the Vision Board showing how the Network Rail land & land occupied by buildings facing Fishergate & Corporation St from Sakura to Micks Hut could provide a more than adequate bus station with passenger linkage at platform level to the railway station. LCC made sure this idea was not pursued.

Bloody LCC. I hope Preston manages to become a unitary authority. It'll stop stupid descisions being made for us by LCC. Platform level linkage from the trains to the bus station would give Preston brilliant public transport intergration. And since the whole emphasis is getting people onto public transport nowadays, I would have thought that integrating train and bus stations would have helped persuade people onto busses rather than taxis.

:bash:As a taxi driver, I take exception to that comment! :lol:


A bus station in close proximity to the rail is a sensible thing to do. Manchester Rd is currently on the outer lying area of town, after Tithebarny, it will be close to the 'heart' of the town.

However, I can't see Tithebarn ever getting started, what with LL pulling out of the Olympic village thingy.

A sketch sheme was prepared for the Vision Board showing how the Network Rail land & land occupied by buildings facing Fishergate & Corporation St from Sakura to Micks Hut could provide a more than adequate bus station with passenger linkage at platform level to the railway station. LCC made sure this idea was not pursued.

I've always thought the railway lands would be the best location for a new bus station, but its still very tricky. If you have both the bus station and the railway station in the west of the city centre, there is a good chance the western end (which is historically the centre of Preston) will just die out and become run down.

I've always thought the railway lands would be the best location for a new bus station, but its still very tricky. If you have both the bus station and the railway station in the west of the city centre, there is a good chance the western end (which is historically the centre of Preston) will just die out and become run down.
Presume you mean the eastern end?
It's true that there has been a migration west of the city centre in the last 100 years, but the civic builings infrastructure, the Tithebarn and location of the M6 to the east should stop it moving further west.

It's true that there has been a migration west of the city centre in the last 100 years, but the civic builings infrastructure, the Tithebarn and location of the M6 to the east should stop it moving further west.

Not to mention the steepness of Fishergate Hill and the natural barrier formed by the River Ribble.

There was some very dangerous thinking a couple of years ago that Penwortham and other areas south of the Ribble could become integrated into 'Greater Preston' or the 'Central Lancashire City' as they like to call it. The people living in these areas didn't share the enthusiasm of the 'visionaries' for this, and have rightly resisted attempts to drag them into a unitary authority with Preston.

Not to mention the steepness of Fishergate Hill


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Are you taking the mickey? Again, I can only assume this problem here is the inherent laziness of the Preston public.*

Perhaps you should go to Lincoln and walk from the city centre to the cathedral, up a real "Steep Hill"

Unless you are seriously infirm or disabled, calling Fishergate Hill steep to truely pathetic.

and the natural barrier formed by the River Ribble.


Lucky someone invented the bridge then.... :ohno:

*No reflection on anyone here other than Riversider, no-one else has spouted such tosh.

There was some very dangerous thinking a couple of years ago that Penwortham and other areas south of the Ribble could become integrated into 'Greater Preston' or the 'Central Lancashire City' as they like to call it. The people living in these areas didn't share the enthusiasm of the 'visionaries' for this, and have rightly resisted attempts to drag them into a unitary authority with Preston.

Do you seriously believe that Penwortham isn't part of Preston?

Wasnt some of the spin put around that if a unitary authority was created that council tax in south ribble would increase? Isnt council tax in South Ribble one of the highest in the region so infact if a unitary authority was created the council tax would reduce. Just proves that south ribble objections were bollocks and based on lies.

I think the failing of the unitary authority was one of the biggest mistakes in the history of the area as it would have rid of of the bumbling fools that is LCC. Alas no where stuck with them. For the time being, hopefully something will happen with the city regions concept putting Preston, South Ribble and Chorley together where they belong. If you ask people from Penwortham where they are from then most of them say Preston. I have met very few people who say Penwortham and detest being said to be from Preston.

Wasnt Preston, Leyland and Chorley meant to have been some sort of New Town at some point?

So are you not a fan of Preston then Riversider?

Jason - let it go. He / she's not worth the effort. :cheers:

You know what im going to. Its not like you can even have a proper debate with him/her anyway, he/she bases the facts on their personal opinion, acting like they are the voice of the great supressed people of Preston. Trying to free them from the 'money grabbing' PCC and evil developers. Disputes actual facts and generally talks bollocks half the time. Is he/she even from Preston, the disgust at a unified Preston/South Ribble seems to suggest not.

Riversider you chose to ignore most of what i say apart from anything which helps your cause, so unless you say something sensible (highly doubtful) then consider yourself ignored.

http://www.lep.co.uk/news/Audiors-to-examine-park-failings.4230316.jp

Looks like their going to do a study into why the park revamp has gone over to a tune of 515,000. Some people even calling for a public enquiry. Wonder how much this investigation into the overspend will actually cost. Who is willing to bet it costs more than the overspend.

Of course it will, all investigations of that sort do. Its only taxpayers money after all...
The thing is though, how the hell does putting a few lights and sculptures into a park
A. Cause such massive controversy
B. Take up so much money

It sure as hell wouldnt cost me £3 million to put a few lights and sculptures in my garden.

I wouldnt bother getting all heated up by Riversider if I was you. He or she appears to be more suited to a bygone age (hence the dismay when somebody proposes something that could actually cause <shock, horror> Progress).

Do you seriously believe that Penwortham isn't part of Preston?
Firstly Penwortham was here before Preston - look in your history books.
Secondly - try asking the people who live there, if they want to be a suburb of Preston and have their fate decided by the unelected Preston City Vision Board.
This is what the members of the 'cult of concrete' consistently fail to do - ASK THE PEOPLE, and this is why they are so often defeated and disappointed. Try ASKING THE PEOPLE - it really makes a difference to the quality of your decision making, and the chances of success for your ideas.

I do agree with an inquiry, just so long as it doesn't cost a bomb. Then again it gives some of the council some work, justifying them having a job. Could the rising cost in inflation and materials be the answer? Its only gone what, 30% over. When you compare that with how the costs for the games keep spiraling up with nothing being built doesn't seem to bad.

Firstly Penwortham was here before Preston - look in your history books.


The complete shit you spout should not rile me, but it almost never fails to. OK - you win. So what is your 'history book' citation for this nonesense?
It is established thought that land was revealed after the last Ice Age as the ice shelf retreated back north and so, being a tad nearer the sea and a tad further south than where both places are now found on a map (I suggest OS grid references might verify your p.o.v.) it is possible that the permafrost disappeared from 'Penwortham' before it did from 'Preston' - but neither neanderthal nor homosapien was around at the time to record the event in any form that would gain any credibility in a book, let alone one on history; +/- 1,000 years even, I suspect?

From Wikipedia on Preston:

Etymology
Preston is first recorded in the Domesday Book (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesday_Book) as "Prestune" in 1086. [4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preston_Guild#cite_note-3) Various other spellings occur in early documents: "Prestonam" (1094), "Prestone" (1160), "Prestona" (1160), "Presteton" (1180), and "Prestun" (1226). The modern spelling occurs in 1094, 1176, 1196, 1212 and 1332.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preston_Guild#cite_note-4) The town's name is derived from Old English (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_English) Presta and Tun, the Tun (town or place) of the Presta (priest or priests).[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preston_Guild#cite_note-5)
Early development
During the Roman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Rome) period, the main road from Luguvalium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luguvalium) (Carlisle) to Mancunium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mancunium) (Manchester) forded the River Ribble (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/River_Ribble) at Walton-le-Dale (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walton-le-Dale), ¾ mile (1 km) southeast of the centre of Preston. Here was a Roman camp, probably a regional depot for military equipment or other supplies. At Withy Trees, 1½ miles (2 km) north of Preston, the road crossed another Roman road from Bremetennacum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bremetennacum) (the Roman fort at Ribchester (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ribchester)) to the coast.[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preston_Guild#cite_note-6)
Preston was already the most important town in Amounderness (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amounderness) (an area of Central Lancashire between the rivers Ribble (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/River_Ribble) and Cocker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/River_Cocker_%28Lancashire%29), including The Fylde (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fylde) and Bowland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forest_of_Bowland)) when first mentioned in the Domesday Book (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesday_Book), compiled in 1086; and it was the wealthiest town in Lancashire when assessed for tax purposes in 1218-19.[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preston_Guild#cite_note-8)

And from the same source

The town of Penwortham is part of the borough of South Ribble (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Ribble) and its history can be traced back to pre-historic times with archaeological evidence showing that the ford at the Middleforth area was used to cross the Ribble. Penwortham was listed in the Domesday Book (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesday_Book) as "Penverdent" and a Priory (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Penwortham_Priory&action=edit&redlink=1) was built in the Priory area of the town. A simple motte-and-bailey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motte-and-bailey) castle was built during the post-Norman conquest period overlooking the Ribble and its ford. Some evidence of this castle is still evident in the churchyard of St Mary's Church. In later centuries a manor house was built, but no evidence remains today.


OK then - They're both mentioned in the Domesday Book. So if Penwortham was so vital to the economy of the region, how come some 90 odd years later the King gave the Market Charter to Preston? Monks held a lot of sway at the time, but that's enough surely for Prestonians to build a bridge to the piory - maybe it was the other way around? No doubt your well researched history book citation will confirm this? I don't know or really care, tbh, because what happened a 1,000 years ago is unlikely to affect my kids wellbeing or futures; though I will accept that you have to know where you are from to determine where you are going to.

Please Riversider, just continue talking shite to the LEP letters column where you are welcome with open arms, and just forget that the opinions on here are made by 'people' who are asked to vote and hopefully do so when asked to. Please try to realise that the Skyscaper City Forum has no political agenda - we are simply a bunch of people that care about our town and don't want it's future ruined by people like you that do not care to learn from best practise found in other places around the world and the benefits that can be gained therefrom.

Firstly Penwortham was here before Preston - look in your history books.
So? York was the capital of England before London was.

Secondly - try asking the people who live there, if they want to be a suburb of Preston and have their fate decided by the unelected Preston City Vision Board.
I've lived in Penwortham my entire life. I'm well aware of what people here think. The fact is, whether we are governed by the same council or not, Penwortham will still be part of Preston. That is something that IS decided by the people, evident by the fact that we live in a different administrative borough. The same goes for most of South Ribble. Try telling somebody they are a South Ribbleian and they would just laugh at you.

This is what the members of the 'cult of concrete' consistently fail to do - ASK THE PEOPLE, and this is why they are so often defeated and disappointed. Try ASKING THE PEOPLE - it really makes a difference to the quality of your decision making, and the chances of success for your ideas.
I'll tell you something, this statement speaks volumes about just how ignorant you and other members of minority pressure groups can be. You'd do well to remember that the vast majority of the contributors to this forum are 'ordinary' Prestonians. Sorry if we don't fit into your bizarre vision of anti-aspirational working class heroes, but your vision is a dying breed.

So? York was the capital of England before London was.


You wash your mouth out!!!!! :) Winchester (my spiritual home city - I grew up there having been born in Hampshire) was the capital before London.

I quite agree with the rest of your post though! :)

Tark, you deserve Post of the Thread! :cheers:

I would have preferred a unitary authority combining both SR and Preston, not sure about Chorley though. Chorley is a big enough town by its self, and if I'm not mistaken, it's borough is larger than Preston's in square miles.

As a taxi driver, getting things changed to better our working conditions, has to go through the toss pots at LCC, who always have an objection to our proposals, all this while PCC back our proposals.

BTW, I went back up Crystal House the other week, took some pics which can be seen here..

http://www.flickr.com/photos/99585382@N00/tags/birleystreet/

BTW, I went back up Crystal House the other week, took some pics which can be seen here..

http://www.flickr.com/photos/99585382@N00/tags/birleystreet/

Here's Cubic's marketing website - some of the apartment plans look rather iffy to me.
Anyone know how it's selling - in reality, not according to them?

Here's Cubic's marketing website - some of the apartment plans look rather iffy to me.
Anyone know how it's selling - in reality, not according to them?

Where?

Whats all this I hear (well read) about Abito working on a Preston development.. saw it on their website but never seen on here anything about a preston abito :|

i haven't seen/heard anything about that but judging by their previous works in manchester, i would assume it will be a fairly major project, possibly the church place scheme planned for church street?

http://www.lep.co.uk/news/Revamp-could-bring-4500-jobs.4245221.jp

Interesting quote from the article. Just proves that Tithebarn, evernthough it hasnt started yet IS bringing investment into the city. Theres no disputing it, this has come from the developers mouth so to speak.

"Mr Moorhouse said the firm has chosen to expand its operation to Preston because they now see the city in the same business potential bracket as big hitters like Manchester and Liverpool – especially with the £700m Tithebarn regeneration on the horizon."

Though why the hell are they calling it Lime House...

double post!

"Bosses at the company... say the revamp will bring a raft of new companies into Preston, with firms already queueing to set up home in the city"

Forgive me, but how will recladding Lowthian in grey plastic and giving it a stupid name really help bring in more companies, especially since Lowthian is more or less empty right now.
I can understand how Tithebarn will help to attract more companies to Preston and I know that those companies will need places to work, but it seems disingenious to say that Lowthian is really going to help all that much. Well, to the extent they make out anyway.

Has anyone seen the way they've painted it? It looks wierd!

Picture!


Well no need to really seeing as I'm going to Preston tomorrow anyway.. ho hum..

Seein as I've commited the sin of duplicate posts.. I'll edit this post to have something both informative and witty.... in due course :|

I'll take me camera tomorrow and see if there is anything that takes me fancy.

Whats all this I hear (well read) about Abito working on a Preston development.. saw it on their website but never seen on here anything about a preston abito :|

Anticipated to be part of this opposite the Minster:
http://www.bluemantlegroup.co.uk/newdevelopments4.html

Sorry I accidentally missed out the link to Cubic on my original post; it's on my screen now - and yours?

Took the opportunity to drive past this site this afternoon - as it's on Essex St most would have to make a detour to view it. Frankly, I thought the drawings that went in for Planning Permission were incompetant, but being a steel fame this 4 story building has taken shape very quickly and looks much better than I thought it would do. Worth a view, imo.

No Tark, but I know how to find it myself..

Was in Preston today, how weird is Lowthian, lol.. I dunno what to make of it.. thing is the offices were never the issue really, its the god damn awful street level (especially on the ringroad, okay.. so you can't have much scope for a streetscape at that level but it must be one of the ugliest areas going!).

Suprised at how many new apartments (student accommodation) has or is going up towards that side of the city too (Moor Lane area).. is making a mini city in itself when viewed from the uni library

I like the look of the church place proposal. I'm a little more undecided on the Friargate student accomodation (see thursdays LEP), but it might just have been the fact the renders were crap.
The more I look at the render of lowthian house, the more I like it. I havent ventured into Preston city centre for ages though, so I dont know how its progressing.

Suprised at how many new apartments (student accommodation) has or is going up towards that side of the city too (Moor Lane area).. is making a mini city in itself when viewed from the uni library

Indeed. Shame the tallest one of the bunch is the ugliest. Speaking of student accommodation, they have just started construction of the new student village on the former Jubilee trading estate on Fylde Road.

Viewed from the Black Bull intersection, it appears for once that there is merit in 'polishing a turd'. But, as usual, there is no thought about the 'fifth eleveation' (the roof / skyline profile), and I have no idea about what they intend at ground level. I'm sure it will be very disappointing though.
C'mon Riversider; slag off this lightweight refurb that has nothing to do with the Tithebarn or Unitary Authorities. What's your view?

Will all students be living in these type of places come a few years then? Will Plungington no longer be a student area? Is moor park a student area (I mean the area around Lovat Road if thats Moor Park), I think I'm a little obsessed with the style of these old little terraces. Might buy myself one when the market bottoms out!

2.5 months til I move to Preston anyway, my address next year will be Whitendale Halls so dead handy for the city centre anyway :-)

Its a shame that the council didnt refuse that beast on Moor Lane on the grounds that the should have made it more visually pleasing. Quite like the Friargate proposal, but as with everything it depends on the material used.

my address next year will be Whitendale Halls so dead handy for the city centre anyway :-)

Making me feel mighty old, haha.. well, I never stayed in Whitendale, I was in Derwent in my first year.. but we did a summer taster week and stayed in Whitendale, was brill.. its a nice little layout.

A lot of the people on my course stayed in Whitendale. They said it was pretty good, probably the best of the uni-owned halls, apart from maybe Roeburn.

http://www.knightfrank.co.uk/RS1049085

Are they the ones that are currently being built? Pretty impressive :)

An impressive use of a pretty small plot and looks great too (Moor Lane Heights). I have to say I’m far less impressed by the blot on the landscape on Friargate that already seems to have started. It outsized and seeming of no architectural quality, taking out a number of Victorian buildings on one of the better preserved streets in Preston. I can’t understand why the top end of Friargate isn’t a conservation area as by Preston standards there are some pretty ancient building here and there and the skyline is pretty coherent currently.

With Friargate what are they doing with that big hole opposite Roper Hall

There was an article in the LEP about it, plans havent been submitted yet, the restaurant next door was complaining the hole was putting off their trade, he was in favour of the student flats though.

Will probably end up as student flats with some sort of retail in the bottom i wouldthink. Hope whatever goes in there keeps in with the roof lines.

With Friargate what are they doing with that big hole opposite Roper Hall

Thought a Tesco Express was supposed to be going there?

That was one of the original plans but maybe with the one opening on Church Street, they reconsidered?

It is going to be developed into a Tesco. We (the Preston Hackney Assoc) tried to get part of the parking bay into a 24hr taxi rank, but we were refused on the grounds that Tesco wanted the whole bay for parking.

Having parking there for Tesco is pointless, and I don't see why they want it. Their trading will be based on the heavy footfall, not good parking. I'd much rather have a taxi rank for when I come out of Roper Hall on a Thursday night.

Having parking there for Tesco is pointless, and I don't see why they want it. Their trading will be based on the heavy footfall, not good parking. I'd much rather have a taxi rank for when I come out of Roper Hall on a Thursday night.

Two responses to that.. One :bash: Why you aint ringing me for a cab! :lol: ANd two, it is already a taxi rank, but only from 7pm - 7am.

We wanted it opened for us to rank there during the day.

Ahh... now I understand! :)

In response your question, the last time I got in your cab you gave me DISCOUNT... how dare you!!! You have no idea how guilty I felt! Its always nice to get your cab home, but I don't want to take you away from your regular duties. I have seen you on Church Street a few times, but always with passengers. Don't take it personally :laugh:

http://www.lep.co.uk/news/Restaurant-hit-by-demolished-drug.4259713.jp

I don't think Tesco is a go-er on that site anymore, there was talk of it being one for a while but since they've gone onto Church Street it is unlikely they'd be after a second city centre site.

Abdellah Diaj, the owner of the Bello Restaurant next door, tells me that Subway was mentioned, although now they've moved into The Mall St George's it seems unlikely they would be interested now.

Also, the permission granted for that site is for 16 flats and one/two retail units and with the amount of flats going up in similar places (not to mention right opposite at Friargate Point) whether the owners think they could get maximum value for their investment.

The company, Friargate Developments, are frustratingly impossible to make contact with to ask what on Earth is going on - but I shall persist!

Watch this space.

I don't think Tesco is a go-er on that site anymore, there was talk of it being one for a while but since they've gone onto Church Street it is unlikely they'd be after a second city centre site.
That will disappoint many of my fellow students who were looking forward to having a Tesco in the neighbourhood. On the subject of the Church Street branch, they didn't waste any bloody time! Its almost ready to open!

Subway was mentioned

Doesn't Preston have enough of those now?

That tesco express looks well on church street. shame they dont get permission for food use at the capitol centre eh.... there probably isnt any other city centre in uk with no major supermarkets.... why!!!???
there seems to be plenty of inner city retail parks springing up but for NON food use.... stupid planning laws!!!

The Tesco at the Capitol Centre is not intended to be a food store anyway, it will be one of their new Homeplus branded stores. Besides, it would not address your concern about the lack of provision in the city centre.

I would hope Tithebarn has provision for a supermarket unit.

Or perhaps the former George unit on Fishergate...... :bash:

Doesn't Preston have enough of those now?

4 I think.
2 on Fishergate, one on Friargate, and one at Deepdale.

subway.... also one on fylde road...penwortham....sandwiches for everyone!!

well even if there was one supermarket in short distance from city centre with at least 3 retail parks currently unoccupied units around the city centre....
oh well maybe sainsburys take the old george site...:nuts:

Confusing.
I reallylike the new Crystal House.
Looks really clean, nice smooth, straight lines, nice colours, good design on the windows and stuff.

Me approves.

It is deffo an improvement on the old one. Have to look at i everyday from work. Doesnt seem as fat. Makes me wonder what it would have looked like with the extension to the top.

Still dont like the new looking Lowthian, sorry, Lime House

subway.... also one on fylde road...penwortham....sandwiches for everyone!!

well even if there was one supermarket in short distance from city centre with at least 3 retail parks currently unoccupied units around the city centre....
oh well maybe sainsburys take the old george site...:nuts:

Tesco were going to build a large format supermarket as part of the original proposals to redevelop the failing Queens Retail Park. However, that looks unlikely to happen now.

Woul rather they didnt build a huge supermarket in the city. Think of all the congestion, massive waste of land through surface carparks, and the fact that supermarkets in city centres (especially tescos) would suck trade away from the centre.

There's going to be a Tesco on Church Street now, possibly a food hall in John Lewis, maybe an M&S (perhaps also an M&S Food store), the refurbished markets and probably more small supermarket stores within the city centre as part of Tithebarn alone. I don't think there's any need for a large supermarket in or near the city centre.
As for Lime House, I think it looks horrendous! If they are going to do it up, they should do it properly and stop doing cheap, quick fixes. I think they ought to demolish the large bulky part (does that contain the bingo hall?) and link the market area to Ringway and improve the street scene along the road, instead of visitors being greeted with a grey, sandblasted loading bay.

hmm...well a nice 24 hour tesco would be handy around the city centre perimeter like north road...new hall lane... queens street all useless as its non food use. im a fan of convenience and therefore the m&s..aldi..lidl and also the little shops wouldnt do it for me...

leyland is far smaller and has supermarket galore! Even booths which steeps in history from its preston fishergate store didnt bother to re open or relocate!

Ah, I forgot about the plans for a food hall in JL. Will that be a food hall, or will they call it Waitrose?

I think Riversider has got fed up of no-one agreeing with anything he says!

I can't think of any other cities with a massive supermarket in the centre, Sunderland have fought tooth and nail to keep Tesco out and build a better development instead. Smaller convienience supermarkets are the way to go. Particually if they can open 24 hours.

I think Riversider has got fed up of no-one agreeing with anything he says!


Cant say im upset

Still dont like the new looking Lowthian, sorry, Lime House

Me neither.
What makes them think that half covering it in crappy grey plastic is going to make it look better.
And that big slab at the bottom, where the bingo is.... well, it makes me ill when I see it.
Needs to go tbh.