Was down there yesterday, parked in the market. Exiting the market lifts and walking down the side of Lowthian really isnt pleasant at all. Its dark and cramped. Would be so much better if they got rid of the bit on the side, would open up the space and from ground level might even give Lowthian abit of soar. Wonder what the plans are for this bit as part of Titebarn. I thought that Lowthian was within Tithebarn? Does that mean that its going to get done again?

It is a bit all over the place with Lowthian. In some versions of the masterplan, Lowthian/Lime House is included and mentioned as being refurbished yet in others it just misses out. I think it will be included personally. Grosvenor/Lend Lease are not going to want that white carbunkle looming over their sparkling new development. We'll have to wait until the Autumn when the planning application should be submitted.
I was in town on Friday and was surprised to see how quickly a Caffe Nero popped up in the Toni & Guy opticians building and was glad to see that Costa Coffee will be taking up residence in the ex Martin Dawes building next to Boots, that's been empty and looking a mess for far too long.

Edit: I just remembered, Lowthian is not included in the masterplan on the Tithebarn website so perhaps they will be leaving it as it is :bash:

Plus hasnt Lowthian been shown with a TV Screen on it in some pics :)

Agree that it looks crap, i mean they have painted a building WHITE next to a RINGROAD!

Yeah, its so that any low flying planes that happen to be using the ringroad at night won't happen to crash into it :nuts:

Lets face it Lowthian isnt exactly the prettiest building in the world, but I dont know the 'renovation' is going to make it any worse. I agree that getting rid of the bit on the side would help to open up the street and help to give it a bit of soar. What it really needs though is a proper renovation, like the sort that Birminghams Rotunda has had, as this seems a bit like a Polska bilderz bodge job.

Or, it could just be demolished and be replaced by something taller.

Edit: I found a bigger version of the LEP picture. Looks like they're already selling it as 'Lime house'.
http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/8985/limehouseii1.jpg

the phrase 'better than nowt' comes to mind.... lowthian will be fine as long as they get some sort of occupancy

What it really needs though is a proper renovation, like the sort that Birminghams Rotunda has had
Thing is with the Rotunda, it was already a nicely shaped building, just with a naff facade. Lowthian is just a slab. I'm not sure how much its new image will improve its tenancy prospects. Its shape is part of the problem. The floorplates are just way too thin. Modern offices demand space, and lots of it. Very few buildings have this in the city centre, highlighting the urgency of the CBD development.

Plus hasnt Lowthian been shown with a TV Screen on it in some pics
Yeh, in a very early Tithebarn render. It looked like it had some kind of Times Square thing going on the end that faces the outdoor markets.

they should have just re-clad the whole thing in lime green cladding, would certainly have made it iconic, lol :| they should just demolish that entire side of the ringroad

I'd just nuke Tithebarn and start again. The urban planning around there is godawful (well actually, the urban planning in Preston as a whole is hardly sheer brilliance). I can hardly imagine that the buildings there are exactly top notch to work in any more, they are, after all, around 30-40 years old. Its probably about time some of them (the Unicentre in particular) are replaced with newer buildings, although that probably isnt going to happen and if it does it will only come after Tithebarn.

The problem with Lowthian is that the land it sits on is in a fairly compact plot, so even if it was demolished, a new building would have to have a similar shape, probably being a bit thicker though.

We can look on the bright side that 2 of the ugly ducklings arnt so ugly anymore, namely Cubic and Marshall House. I do think though that Uni Centre is the worst offender of the lot though, hate it. Quite like Lowthian though, dont know why, just do :)

Anyone read the story in the LEP about the amount of needles the cleaning staff have found in the bus station and indoor market? When they're private streets (with public right of way) with their own security force I'm sure we'll see a lot less of that sorta thing around there (though Im sure it'll move on elsewhere).

I do think though that Uni Centre is the worst offender of the lot though, hate it.

The UniCentre was by the same architect as the bus station - Keith Ingham of BDP - just for info.

Anyone read the story in the LEP about the amount of needles the cleaning staff have found in the bus station and indoor market? When they're private streets (with public right of way) with their own security force I'm sure we'll see a lot less of that sorta thing around there (though Im sure it'll move on elsewhere).

The thing with the LEP is they make it out as if these things don't happen anywhere else on earth except in Preston.

And no doubt some how its down to evil developers.

Never knew that the two were built by the same architect. They do 'fit' together as it were. Still doesnt mean i like the Uni Centre, Perhaps it would look better with a clean? Has it always been that yellowy colour?

I don't mind the unicentre. It looks very neat compared to the other office blocks.

Dont like its 4 service towers, makes it look odd to me. Prefere Guild House.

The thing with the LEP is they make it out as if these things don't happen anywhere else on earth except in Preston.

Not sure that's quite true, all in how you interpret it, I guess.

I think the UniCentre looks pretty nice!
Lowthian is a friggin' grey, ugly, concrete slab.
Needs demolishing tbh ¬_¬

I'm really not a fan of concrete or 60's buildings, so the only building I like around the Tithebarn area is the Guild Centre. To me the Unicentre ranks below the Ryugyong hotel in terms of asethics, but then again, so does Lowthian, the bus station and Red rose house. I'm more keen on the Norwich union offices and the holiday inn, although they are hardly the most beautiful buildings on the planet.

The LEP does tend to make out that Preston is worse for crime and drugs than it actually is, but then again all the papers that are a bit tabloidy tend to over emphasize any rise in crime figures.

New student flats to be built on Walker Street (with render):

http://www.lep.co.uk/news/Students-fuel-flats-building-boom.4307821.jp

This is great news. The site used to be a car wash which is now derelict and quite frankly looks awful. If this, the Gas Union building redevelopment (Adelphi), and Friargate Point are built, this area will be transformed in the next few years.

Oh yes, and some construction updates from 'eat at joes' at Flickr.com:

Recycling Lives
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3087/2671259934_b0035eb13d.jpg?v=1216126918

Einstein's Theory development
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3169/2636447486_8d5706e6dd.jpg?v=0

The Room
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3189/2405614078_a6ec30756a.jpg?v=0

shitty moor lane halls
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3022/2635606879_408e0f5589.jpg?v=0

is that einsteins development topped out? I thought that was meant to be another 10 storey block?

shitty moor lane halls

Jeez! - Not many! That really is shockingly poor.

Why on earth did the council approve them? There big, dominating and shit. Surely if they said no they would have come back with a better design? Look at the ones opposite Piccadilly Station Platform 14, there tall but not shockingly bad like these.

More halls= More competition for student landlords to either improve or reduce their prices. So in the end its good new for the student!

Gas Works Building?

is that einsteins development topped out? I thought that was meant to be another 10 storey block?

I dont think so ferge. This is the render that Preston_guy posted:
http://www.knightfrank.co.uk/propertyImages/S1049085/lvp080116_03.jpg

Gas Works Building?
Its not an easy building to find. You would be forgiven for thinking its part of the BT building. Its a single storey building (very small) on the Adelphi Roundabout, directly in front of the BT building. Its derelict now and has become very overgrown.
This is the building that is meant to replace it:
http://editorial.jpress.co.uk/web/Upload/PRES//TH1_151200856LEP%20Image.jpg

thats quite a classy building..could be quite prominent on that site

Just adding my disapproval to the many regarding the Moor Lane Halls! What a dreadful, featureless pile of smelly, stinkey poo.

Just adding my disapproval to the many regarding the Moor Lane Halls! What a dreadful, featureless pile of smelly, stinkey poo.

Its okay, we have the green wall! :crazy:

http://www.legacy-hotels.co.uk/legacy-preston/home.asp
http://www.legacy-hotels.org.uk/preston/Preston%20Hotel%20260608%20small.pdf
Designs subject to change, of course!

It has a stupid name, plus it looks abit shit to be an "international" hotel.

The new block of student accommodation next door looks better!

Hmm, yeah it does a bit. The website isnt exactly descriptive though, so i guess it'll be a 'lets wait and see' type thing. I can hardly imagine that Preston is the ideal city for an 'international' luxury conference facility. The nearest airport is quite a drive away.

Eureka!! I have found a new use for the Dock.

Preston International Airport :D

Thats actually quite a good idea, even if it was only the same size as Blackpool. But then, like so many things that could benefit Preston, it wont ever happen because there are an unfortunate amount of people like Riversider living in Preston.

Yes, people who dont want anything to change unless it is like it was before.

Really wish they would find a use for the Dock, and arena of some sorts would be nice :)

an airport? :| they might as well use the roof of the bus station, how many cities would be able to say that? talk about an interchange..

Why on earth would anyone want Preston to have an Airport?

I think he was kidding...

Eureka!! I have found a new use for the Dock.

Preston International Airport :D
A final year student at Sheffield Uni did this in the early 90's.
A more appropriate location would be adaptation of the airstrip at Salmesbury which is currently largely mothballed. Probably be called Blackburn International though! :bash:

A more appropriate location would be adaptation of the airstrip at Salmesbury which is currently largely mothballed.

No chance I'm afraid. The new building work ongoing at Samlesbury would render the runway unusable. The runway is used by an RAF Volunteer Glider Squadron, who will also be unlikely to be able to use it once building work has completed.

Just to go off the subject a little, I went into Preston for the first time in ages today, and I was pretty surprised to see how well things have progressed. Cubic is really good, it looks far better than it did the last time I saw it, and I didnt realise that Lowthian's refinishing was already nearly done. Marshall House has had a reclad too by the looks of it, and it looked pretty decent. The moor lane halls really are crap arent they.

Well the scaffolding's off the small block of flats at the bottom of Cannon Street. What a miserable, dumpy, mean and ugly effort it is. Unrelieved by anything which could be called "detailing", it really makes me despair at what some clients and architects are prepared to inflict upon the built environment.

Another planning application has been submitted to try and sort out the Victoria and Albert Buildings on Fishergate. And it couldn't come a moment too soon.

What they going to do with them?

They are owned by the Fishergate centre now, so presumably some kind of retail project.

Hopefully something nice opposed to cheap as it is quite a promenant location. Doubtful though :(

Another planning application has been submitted to try and sort out the Victoria and Albert Buildings on Fishergate. And it couldn't come a moment too soon.


Which ones are those again?
Google gives me nothing.

Please tell me they're sorting out the building which is home to Originals Footwear or Menswear or whatever the hell it's called.

Which ones are those again?
Google gives me nothing.
They are the buildings on the junction of Fishergate and Corporation Street. Its got the Armed Forces recruitment centre and a number of sex shops and tattoo parlours as current tenants.

These images are from the old proposed scheme (the link to the document was posted on here probably over a year ago now) so the scheme is likely to have changed but the plan includes 'erection of new shop front, external alterations and re-building of end unit' which relates to the renders:
http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/1599/vicalbert1ai4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/1599/vicalbert1ai4.e4bbaa1935.jpg (http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=301&i=vicalbert1ai4.jpg)
http://img123.imageshack.us/img123/1417/vicalbert2rd3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img123.imageshack.us/img123/1417/vicalbert2rd3.65cd260101.jpg (http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=123&i=vicalbert2rd3.jpg)

They are the buildings on the junction of Fishergate and Corporation Street. Its got the Armed Forces recruitment centre and a number of sex shops and tattoo parlours as current tenants.

Ah, I know where you mean.
I still think the Originals shop needs sorting out first.

And those renders are suitably out of place.
Doesn't match with the rest of the street at all.

pity they couldn't have something stepped up, highest at the corner.. as a gateway to the high st, say 6 floors.. and step down to the existing building height. Don't really think a curtain glass, curved front is the way forward.. but like you said, thats the old proposal..

No posts for 4 days? :ohno:

I guess now Riversider has gathered up his toys and gone off in a huff, we have less to discuss/argue!

The only new stuff I know of are plans to convert an office building in Winckley square into apartments (original) and initial proposals to get ideas for revamping the Flag Market.

The thread does slow down every now and again, especially when there isn't much news about (and I'm sure Riversider's absence is playing a good part ;) ). However we are still doing very well. In July, we totalled 91 posts, compared with only 20 in July last year.
I am a tad concerned that the credit crunch will result in a downturn on the thread. I'll let everyone know if we start going down on last year rather than up. This month we have a measly 21 posts to beat :)

On the subject of the flag market, I don't want them to do too much with it. A water feature would be nice considering how much of a success that temporary one was a couple of years back.

I agree with Accura on the Flag Market situation although i would like to see the trees that block the Harris from Friargate removed. Loved that water feature, really added something.

Converting officed to apartments? Do you mean the newer office buildings on the East side of the square? I find that rather amusing, demolish georgian housing to build offices and then later convert said offices into housing :)

It is Lancashire House which is next to and above the Chop House. Apparantly it will get new doors and windows and an extension on the roof.

Plans finalised for 136-room hotel

http://www.lep.co.uk/news/Plans-finalised-for-136room-hotel.4372019.jp#comments

This is due to start before the years out according to Coatsie, so hopefully there should be at least one project being built in the city centre over the next year :)

Yay really like this one :D Hopefully with this one going up the red brick shite hotel across the road will dissapear :)

Plans finalised for 136-room hotel

http://www.lep.co.uk/news/Plans-finalised-for-136room-hotel.4372019.jp#comments

This is due to start before the years out according to Coatsie, so hopefully there should be at least one project being built in the city centre over the next year :)

Haha! Don't pin the responsibility of building the bloody thing on me! Though, I am going to get in touch with the agent and see when work begins - he did say soon.

On a totally different subject, can anyone think of prominent empty buildings in the city?
Doesn't matter where, if you know the street number and/or postcode that's helpful though - and the bigger the better.
Either PM me or message on here.

Cheers!

David

On a totally different subject, can anyone think of prominent empty buildings in the city?
Doesn't matter where, if you know the street number and/or postcode that's helpful though - and the bigger the better.

Well, there is the old cinema (next to Lava Ignite), the[Empire?] Bank (next to Tango Joes) and Squares buildings on Church Street, the building facing the Marsh Lane/Corporation Street junction (which was due to be made into student accommodation but never happened) and the nearby Mercury Flux club which I read is now out of business.

Golden Cross Hotel on Lancaster Road? Hasnt Mood on Friargate closed, thats quite a large building. Any reason why?

Plans finalised for 136-room hotel

http://www.lep.co.uk/news/Plans-finalised-for-136room-hotel.4372019.jp#comments

This is due to start before the years out according to Coatsie, so hopefully there should be at least one project being built in the city centre over the next year :)

Any estimations for a completion date?

Haha! Don't pin the responsibility of building the bloody thing on me! Though, I am going to get in touch with the agent and see when work begins - he did say soon.

On a totally different subject, can anyone think of prominent empty buildings in the city?
Doesn't matter where, if you know the street number and/or postcode that's helpful though - and the bigger the better.
Either PM me or message on here.

Cheers!

David
The old post office
St Josephs Orphanage
Gas Union Building

An interesting empty building is the white one on the corner of Fox St and Surgeons Court, which many mormon tourists come to see. You can find out much about the history of the building on mormon history websites. A multi-millionaire from Utah called Huntsman has offerred to buy this for the LDS church, but because one of their founding prophets Joseph Kimball had disturbing "visions" there, they'd prefer not to own it. Been empty for years though.
It's a pity nothing is happening with St Joes on Mount St. Buildings hate being unused, and this characterful one is starting to deteriorate rather quickly now.

An interesting empty building is the white one on the corner of Fox St and Surgeons Court, which many mormon tourists come to see.
Is that the one called the Devil's House or something and reputed to be very haunted?

Has anybody else read this complete nonsense? (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7556937.stm)

LOL I know, are they mad?

TBH, although Preston is a bit of a shithole and is far from perfect, I'd sooner live here over London any day. London is fun to visit, but its a bugger to live in once the novelty wears off.

Preston does deserve some stick, because it is stuck in its backwards ways.. Thats not to say it aint beyond repair.. The north west is so vibrant, Manchester and Liverpool our real power houses.. how anyone can say they're anything but progressive is beyond me.

Bet the research was done by Southerners who have never been up here anyway. Would rather live in the North West than London anyday of the week. Lets face it, from central London travel for and hour and your still, erm in London. An Hour From Preston and you could be in Manchester, Liverpool, Blackpool, The Lakes. If everything wasnt so London centric then maybe there would be much more investment in the North. To be honest i dont know why more businesses dont relocate up here anyway. Its the digital age so what is the real need for businesses to be located in London?

Viva le North!!!!!!!!!!

Treat it with the contempt it deserves! And that's a southerner speaking!

I don't really like the South at all.
There are a few exceptions obviously, such as Devon and Cornwall.

North is so much better than the South.

Treat it with the contempt it deserves! And that's a southerner speaking!

Hang him!

Have you seen a picture of the guy? Hes funny looking.

They don't really think that the cost of keeping people in happy up north probably equates to a tenth of the same calibre of development for the capital and can have ten times more benefit.. (ie, Metrolink vs Crossrail)..

If any of our nothern cities got even the remote interest when it comes to these decisions, then they'd really see their potential..

I'd rather live in London than Longridge (because Longridge genuinely is pretty backward and bloody boring to live in, added to which the local council can't do anything and isnt elected) but I disagree that the North is 'doomed'. Regeneration in Northern cities is actually very succesful (a' la Salford Quays and L1) and the North is hardly devoid of business (Note how CIS are located in Manc and how Manc currently has the UK's tallest outside of London and used to have the UK's tallest). Though Northern cities have poor rundown areas, so do London and Birmingham. The idea that everybody should go to London to get rich is stupid. Then again, that's the Tories favourite thinktank speaking, so it makes sense that that's what they'd say.

I've heard and read many reports about 'failing schools' in Inner London, but I never for one moment thought that that included the London School of Economics.

I'd rather live in London than Longridge
Well, I'd rather live in Longton than London! :)

Speaking as a Southerner living up north, I found that report cringingly embarrassing. As others infer, I would suspect the report authors have never strayed beyond the M25!

^Plus the report author sounded like a woman ;)

Stumbled across some interesting finds on the Frank Whittle Partnership's website. The planning application for the apartments was submitted last week and there seems to be rather ambitious plans for a tower on the Staples site as part of the CBD, though I doubt something of that scale would be suitable for that area.

Central Business District:
Tower
http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/3954/500lgwr6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/3954/500lgwr6.bd449a43e9.jpg (http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=214&i=500lgwr6.jpg)
Looking down Ringway towards Greyfriars
http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/4747/502lgwz3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/4747/502lgwz3.6d2979eee1.jpg (http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=214&i=502lgwz3.jpg)
Looking down Corporation Street
http://img49.imageshack.us/img49/8260/503lgom0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img49.imageshack.us/img49/8260/503lgom0.ccbf82eb7c.jpg (http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=49&i=503lgom0.jpg)
From Fishergate
http://img49.imageshack.us/img49/4169/505lglt5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img49.imageshack.us/img49/4169/505lglt5.cfced22333.jpg (http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=49&i=505lglt5.jpg)

Glovers Court:
http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/5944/491lgvl1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/5944/491lgvl1.5b915c4982.jpg (http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=214&i=491lgvl1.jpg)
http://img49.imageshack.us/img49/9576/487lggf4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img49.imageshack.us/img49/9576/487lggf4.4aa06d7cad.jpg (http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=49&i=487lggf4.jpg)
http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/148/489lgwo1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/148/489lgwo1.8550c11b61.jpg (http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=214&i=489lgwo1.jpg)

Website: http://www.fwpgroup.co.uk/default.php

Plans finalised for 136-room hotel

http://www.lep.co.uk/news/Plans-finalised-for-136room-hotel.4372019.jp#comments

This is due to start before the years out according to Coatsie, so hopefully there should be at least one project being built in the city centre over the next year :)

http://www.lep.co.uk/news/City-landmarks-on-the-horizon.4403937.jp

Their promise, not mine, remember!

Cheers,

David

Whadda Fook! Height?, Density??.. In Preston??!, get in, lol :|

Preston railway station is set for a much needed £20m overhaul, the Evening Post can reveal.

Plans for a complete revamp of the crumbling station to transform it into one of the country's main gateway interchanges will be drawn up by rail bosses inside a year.

The overhaul is set to include the replacement of footbridge steps with escalators and lifts to make it more passenger friendly, a brand new first class lounge, new toilets and passenger facilities and a complete renovation to spruce up its shoddy appearance.

Rail campaigners hope the makeover will see new shops in the station too.

With passenger numbers expected to soar and more trains due to be introduced to the network by 2012, Preston will become one of the region's main interchange stations - the Lancashire equivalent of Manchester's flagship Piccadilly.

The news was today branded a long overdue boost for passengers reeling from hordes of late and cancelled trains, continuing maintenance work, soaring rail fares and poor facilities at Preston station.

Julie Warburton, passenger link manager at rail watchdog Passenger Focus, said: "It is extremely good news.

"I live just outside Preston and I travel regularly. I'm always on Virgin's back about the state of that station, it's ridiculous.

"The toilets are unbelievable - it is things like that there needs to be more of. It needs to come into the 21st century."

Aiden Turner-Bishop, of the Campaign for Better Transport in Lancashire, said: "It would be an opportunity to put in new shops, a little supermarket, fresh food, more cafes and it would be very handy to have it before the Guild in 2012.

"It is good news but let's hope they do it nicely."

Neil Cartwright, cabinet member for development at Preston Council, said: "That is absolutely wonderful. The one thing about the station is there is a lot of empty space and I hope Network Rail and Virgin will be looking at how they can make the most of that room."

The revamp of Preston station, a Grade II listed building which was first built in 1938, is part of the West Coast Main Line Rail Utilisation Strategy (RUS) - Network Rail's 10 year vision of development and improvements on the route.

Initial discussions will begin within the next two months and proper planning will start in around April next year, once Network Rail and rail groups have had time to assess the impact of a new West Coast timetable which is due to be introduced in December this year.

The RUS document is due to be go out to consultation in around 12 months time when full details of how the station will be improved will be finalised.

Initial improvements to Preston station are due to begin next year, when a new multi-storey car park at the site will be completed.

The Lancashire and Cumbria RUS - due to be published in its final form later this month - is also recommending moving two buildings at the bottom of steps from the footbridge on to platforms one and two in 2009.

The document says the buildings obstruct passengers getting on and off trains.

The Lancashire and Cumbria RUS estimates the station revamp would bring £35m of economic benefits to the city and the capital cost of the project would likely be less than £23m.

It comes after the Evening Post reported on the state of the city's third world public transport network.

And experts are predicting tickets could rise by a further 5.5% in January 2009, based on expected inflation.

By 2012, the Government is planning to introduce 1,300 extra train carriages to the nationwide network to cope with increasing passenger numbers.

In 2006/7 around 3.5m people used Preston station - an increase of more than 10% on 2004/5.

From: Lancashire Evening Post

Finally :)

there seems to be rather ambitious plans for a tower on the Staples site as part of the CBD
Interesting, but I'd bet that never gets built.

About time something was done with the station, needs a good clean.

Omg that tower, never. Look at the size of it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Its huge (by Preston standards. Though it is in a dip so wouldnt apear as big an the skyline. But still, bloody hell!

Nothing that spectacular will be built in Preston in the near future lol.

It is actually only around 25 storeys so, although it is ambitious, never say never.

When you get into Preston station, you (or I anyway) wouldn't necessarily think it needed a refurb, but then it rains, and you realise that you've more chance of staying dry if you were stood outside, lol :|

Escalators and new facilities would be great, it has the potential to be a brilliant station

LOL I think I should get a job for the LEP... Every time we make a new find online, it seems to make news in the Evening Post! Oh well, they get the detailed info anyway! Todays scoop: the apartments on Glovers Court complete with the renders I found and a reference to the Frank Whittle Partnership!!

Where is Glovers Court? Is it the street with Loft on?

Yeah, down where the Booths bridge is.

Wouldnt live down there for 100 grand.

http://www.lep.co.uk/news/City-unveils-vision-of-tram.4417882.jp

Interesting proposals in the LEP. Tram system for Preston. Nice idea but dont think it has a chance in hell unless there is drastic change in government spending on public transport. Lets face it Liverpool didnt get theres and Manchester has had to fight and accept congestion charge for theres.

Agora has submitted a planning application asking for them to be able to build the multi-storey car park at the Fishergate Centre, prior to construction starting on the extension so it looks like that is still on the cards.

Hi everyone,
enjoyed catching up with the news in this thread. I'll have to reply to a few things that go back several pages:

1. I've been away from these boards for a while, but it's not because everyone disagrees with me, I'm well used to that! The main reasons are as mundane as holidays and busyness in other areas.

2. I've never claimed to speak for anyone else other than myself. I haven't written to the LEP letters page for a long time - the letters you possibly think are from me are from other 'ordinary Preston people'

3. As far as I can see, Penwortham is a separate and distinct entity from Preston, with it's own identity and it's own direction. So are Leyland and Chorley, attempts to subsume these areas into 'Greater Preston' and rob them of control over their own destinies would certainly provoke resistance. I'm pointing this out as a fact, rather than something which I see as either desireable or undesireable. What I do see as undesireable are the inflated egos and overaggressive expansionism of people that imagine a 'Greater Preston' conurbation or 'Central Lancashire City' might be a good thing.

4. Quite flattered to hear that my mere presence in this City prevents the building of an airport here! I am concerned that anyone would think this desireable. Have you guys never heard of global warming and carbon footprints?

5. You say I live in the past, but it's actually you who are living in a late-twentieth century bubble, with no understanding of the challenges we face in this Twentyfirst Century era of impending man-made environmental catastrophe and of huge economic upheaval caused by the rapacious and irresponsible behaviour of those with financial and political power.

You remind me of the Easter Island people, who devoted their entire culture and economy to building those huge stone artefacts; the 'moai'. They did not notice that they were destroying the ecology of their island, and the sustainability of their community, their chiefs, bureaucrats and priests must have thought that somehow, the giant heads held some kind of intense power that could solve all their problems, if only they could build enough of them.

Ultimately they wiped themselves out, still pathetically trying to build, build, build their way out of the crisis.

If only I had time to reply to that message. I'm sure someone will beat me to it :P

Since nobody else is going to lay into this, let me.

Hi everyone,
enjoyed catching up with the news in this thread. I'll have to reply to a few things that go back several pages:

1. I've been away from these boards for a while, but it's not because everyone disagrees with me, I'm well used to that!
Since you can argue with facts and you think every new development in Preston has something to do with developers conspiring to usurp the council and destroy democracy by building things that will make preston a better place to live.

The main reasons are as mundane as holidays and busyness in other areas.
Fair enough. I have one slight comment here, but I'll get to that later.

2. I've never claimed to speak for anyone else other than myself. I haven't written to the LEP letters page for a long time - the letters you possibly think are from me are from other 'ordinary Preston people'
Given that they probably believe what the LEP says, can you blame them for being like you?

3. As far as I can see, Penwortham is a separate and distinct entity from Preston, with it's own identity and it's own direction. So are Leyland and Chorley, attempts to subsume these areas into 'Greater Preston' and rob them of control over their own destinies would certainly provoke resistance. I'm pointing this out as a fact, rather than something which I see as either desireable or undesireable. What I do see as undesireable are the inflated egos and overaggressive expansionism of people that imagine a 'Greater Preston' conurbation or 'Central Lancashire City' might be a good thing.
I'm assuming then that you'd never put somewhere like Trafford inside Greater Manchester, or Bootle inside Greater Liverpool. The fact is that, though Penwortham and Leyland may have developed seperately from Preston, they are now within Prestons metro area, which, unless I'm very much mistaken, is called Greater Preston. Preston could be known as Central Lancashire City because its a city. And its in Central Lancashire.

4. Quite flattered to hear that my mere presence in this City prevents the building of an airport here! I am concerned that anyone would think this desireable. Have you guys never heard of global warming and carbon footprints?
Actually, I dont really think Preston needs an airport any more. We arent really that bad when it comes to airports, what with Liverpool and Manchester being under two hours away and with Blackpool being less than an hour away.
There are two things I complain about here though. Firstly you took the phrase 'people like Riversider' to somehow mean just you yourself, which smacks of arrogance. Secondly, why are you burning electricity generated by eithe a fossil fuel generator or a nuclear power station by using a computer to tell us about climate change? Since you mentioned you went on holiday, I can only assume that you walked there so that you didnt emit any CO2.

5. You say I live in the past, but it's actually you who are living in a late-twentieth century bubble, with no understanding of the challenges we face in this Twentyfirst Century era of impending man-made environmental catastrophe and of huge economic upheaval caused by the rapacious and irresponsible behaviour of those with financial and political power.
Have you never heard of eco-architecture. Any new buildings in Preston would be far, far more environmentally friendly than the old 60's ones we have now, which, may I remind you, were not builyt with green issues in mind. In terms of economic upheval, you talk as though its our fault. Its no use complaining to us when you say yourself that those with economic and political power are to blame.

You remind me of the Easter Island people, who devoted their entire culture and economy to building those huge stone artefacts; the 'moai'. They did not notice that they were destroying the ecology of their island, and the sustainability of their community, their chiefs, bureaucrats and priests must have thought that somehow, the giant heads held some kind of intense power that could solve all their problems, if only they could build enough of them.

Ultimately they wiped themselves out, still pathetically trying to build, build, build their way out of the crisis.
Would you care to name what this crisis would be? If you mean climate change then really that isnt a crisis. And Preston isnt exactly devoting its entire economy to building is it? The only new buildings that have gone up in Preston recently have been student flats and I hardly see how building a few student flat blocks is going to destroy the planet.

In short, riversider, if you dont have a decent argument to make, do not make it. This is the final time I will argue with you, because you seem blind to how much better our city will be when the new developments are finished. Finally, riversider, if something is a fact, do not argue with it. You wouldnt argue about humans needing to breathe oxygen, so why argue about something else which is plainly true.

I feel I have given my $0.02.

The LEP, as do I, recieve planning notices via email from Preston City Council. So I wouldn't assume that Coatsie, or any other LEP reporter gets their scoops from here.

http://www.lep.co.uk/news/City-unveils-vision-of-tram.4417882.jp

Interesting proposals in the LEP. Tram system for Preston. Nice idea but dont think it has a chance in hell unless there is drastic change in government spending on public transport. Lets face it Liverpool didnt get theres and Manchester has had to fight and accept congestion charge for theres.

I hope this goes ahead - it looks like a worthy project. As you say, funding would be the issue, but with the majority of the routes being off-road on disused railway lines, it needn't be prohibitively expensive if the polical will was there.

Hmmm, not you best effort Waz mate -

I'm assuming then that you'd never put somewhere like Trafford inside Greater Manchester, or Bootle inside Greater Liverpool. The fact is that, though Penwortham and Leyland may have developed seperately from Preston, they are now within Prestons metro area, which, unless I'm very much mistaken, is called Greater Preston. Preston could be known as Central Lancashire City because its a city. And its in Central Lancashire.

To be fair, I've never heard of "Greater Preston". Where exactly is it and by what bodies is called this?
Prior to Local Government reoganisation in 1974, Preston, Leyland and Chorley were combined to create "Central Lancashire New Town" (under the New Towns Act, 1946 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Towns_Act_1946 ) in 1970, the last New Town to be designated. Since my "Greater Preston" sentence above, I've found this sentence on the CLNT page -
The British Office for National Statistics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_for_National_Statistics) gives a figure for the 'Preston urban area', covering Preston, Leyland, Chorley, Euxton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euxton) and Wymott (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wymott&action=edit&redlink=1), of 365,000.
The problems we face in creating the much needed Unitary Authority for this "urban area", have existed since that time, as evidenced by the fact that it was the only New Town not to get a proper name, c.f Milton Keynes. This was because each of Preston, Leyland & Chorley in particular were large and strong enough to not want to replace their names with something new, nor be subsumed into the moniker of "Preston". The operational name of Central Lancashire New Town was gently swept under the carpet in the early 80's - I don't think anyone would want that bureaucratic nonesense of Central Lancashire City - it is frankly a none-starter. A slightly sinister option could be by following the example of the large metro area near J'burg in South Africa, known as Soweto - a corruption of South West Townships. But I don't like the sound of Clancity much either!
Interestingly, I was chatting with a "Sribblovian" friend of mine in the pub on Friday night about the Unitary Authority option. As I'd had a few sherberts, I was not best prepared to lay my strongest case for its many advantages to us all, and his self confessed lack of knowledge or understanding of urban regeneration and revenue sources meant that he wouldn't buy into my economic or political arguments. He'd voted against UA purely because of Preston Council's well known track record of corruption and incompetance in the past (e.g. The Docks & Operation Angel). In those simplistic terms it was hard to blame him for that decision, but it is symptomatic of many people's desire to look back rather than forward, more's the pity.

oh yay riversiders back...

oh yay riversiders back...
After a break from his generally luddite ramblings, I actually feel glad of a view that makes makes one question and think about how seriously wrong and ill-informed he is on most matters of urban regeneration.

My favourite has to be the whole "all the eggs in one basket" thing by getting only one developer to do it. To suggest that you could do it any other way shows he knows bugger all about urban regeneration on this scale. Though i am open to listening to how Riversider would propose to do it.

My favourite has to be the whole "all the eggs in one basket" thing by getting only one developer to do it. To suggest that you could do it any other way shows he knows bugger all about urban regeneration on this scale.

The key concept here is 'on this scale'.

The development has largely received the political backing that it has because it is BIG. The BIGGER it is, the less anyone would dare risk questioning or thinking about it. Local politicians who happily spend hours debating the sighting of a bus stop or moving an advertising hoarding seem perfectly willing to accept anything whatsoever when the number of zeroes in the figures start to get mind-boggling.

It's scale fits in with the self-aggrandising ambitions of a small group of leading city power-brokers who have overblown ideas about how they want to change Preston - which include a huge increase in Preston's population, and subsuming the towns of South Ribble into their own political fiefdom. That 'SRibblovian' was right to think that to sup with Preston's political leadership, he would need a long spoon. The reality is that the more power these people are given, the more crazy and grandiose will be the schemes they come up with.

By putting all their eggs in one basket, we've handed over power and control in our city to a single private developer, who are basically calling the shots about things that happen well beyond the footprint of the Tithebarn development itself.

I wish I had a pound for every time the phrase 'Grosvenor have given their backing to it' is now used. It seems like we have to ask their permission for anything that happens in Preston now.

The other consequence of putting all our development eggs in one basket, is that it massively increases the risk that we end up with NO DEVELOPMENT AT ALL. We've already had no development at all for the last decade, as a consequence of this decision, and the credit crunch could create the conditions where the sheer bigness of the project stops being it's greatest asset, and becomes it's greatest problem.

I actually feel glad of a view that makes makes one question and think about how seriously wrong and ill-informed he is
I was with you up to the word 'about'.

Seriously, if all I do is provoke people into questioning and thinking about the assumptions behind their ideas, then the time I've spent here has not been totally wasted.

as a consequence of this decision, and the credit crunch could create the conditions where the sheer bigness of the project stops being it's greatest asset, and becomes it's greatest problem.

I fear you may be right in this regard. (more) Time will tell . . .

But you still havnt answered what your alternative to using one big developer?

Just think if it wasnt for people like you bitching an moaning at every turn and LCC and there stupid plan for Preston (whatever that is) and all the crap over the bus station then chances are Tithebarn would have been built by now. But it hasnt because people who know fuck all about town planning and what Tithebarn could actually do and what it was about have stalled it.

Just think, if the council had listened to the people, and the developers had been less greedy for the land the bus station occupies, we might have had a less grandiose, more sympathetic development that does not downgrade our public transport capacity, and could actually have already got built.

Instead the council and developers refused to listen, refused to compromise, and went for all or nothing.

The consequences for the rest of us of this high risk strategy are 10 years of no development, followed by who knows what in the next 10 years?

Preston has already paid a high price for putting all it's eggs in one basket. Let's hope the price does not turn out to be even higher.

Or lets consider if people backed who they have voted in and the regeneration scheme that will ensure that the city continues to prosper and if LCC hadnt been such shits over the bus station. It probably would have been done by now. Liverpool got there act sorted and they got done first. But lets face it were now all stuck with LCC thanks to the idiots in South Ribble.

Sympathetic to what? St Johns Centre? The Guild Hall? The area isnt exactly a world heratige site and im sick of Preston being commented on like it is. Less grandiose? So what, you wanted some sort of generic shit development?

The whole project rests on the demolition of the Bus Station, the majority of the land is underneath it and also the land on the Ringway side of it is virtually cut off from the city centre by it. The only way to develop the area was to get rid of the Bus Station or having a massive redevelopment of it. But lets face it, that will never happen now as all the NIMBYs lauched there save Preston campaigns not for the bus station architecturally but functionally. Something which it totally fails ay anyway.

If you think that Tithebarn would EVER be developed without getting rid of the bus station then you are sadly diluded. Without the Bus Station land all that leaves you with is St Johns and the Markets. Lets face it, what would be the point of refurbishing the Guild Hall when it effectively leads to nothing.

Me personally i would like to see the bus station stay. I do think that in 40 years that it will be looked back on much in the same way that the Town Hall is now. It could ineffect be converted into the scheme. Its monolithic, a child of its time. Imagine it as say an entertainment Venue, Gallery, a new Cultural hub for Preston. It could be done, but the moaners have fought for the wrong thing.

On the capacity issue, do you ever actually go to the bus station? It doesnt need to be as big? Unless Preston turns into Manchester or Liverpool overnight it doesnt need a bus station this big. Infact if you take Liverpool as an example (for a city thats about 10 times bigger than Preston), it has 2 bus stations. Paradise Street which is around 12 stands and Queen Square which is has roughly the same amount of stands. So thats it, Liverpool has around 30 stands. Preston Bus Station will have around the same. Dont you see that making the bus station smaller wont make the slightest bit of difference. Infact i dont know why they dont do similar here. Have 15 in Tithebarn and 15 at the Rail Station. But no LCC says no, thanks South Ribble.

Rant Over

The bus station need not be half as big as it actually is. If all the busses not in use were driven to some kind of warehouse, instead of simply parking up in the bays at the bus station, its probable that the bus station would only need 40 bays for the busses that are in use, if that. That also begs the question of how many busses are really necessary. None of the Longridge-Preston busses are ever even half full (except when the college students are on them), so to me one every ten minutes seems a little too many.

The ambitious £15m plans to transform Preston's Guild Hall have been unveiled.

Visitors will be greeted by a two-storey shopping gallery, replacing the tired-looking shops in the Guild Hall Arcade.

The venue will get a new entrance from Lancaster Road, and the back of the building will open on to a public square, plus a new car park with covered walkway.

And the building, opened in 1972, could also get a new roof to make the whole centre brighter.

Developers Grosvenor and Lendlease will pay for the work as part of their £700m Tithebarn redevelopment.

Jim Carr, chief executive of the council, said: "While there is shopping on the ground floor now, there will be shopping on two levels and the width of the ground floor will be widened so the shops can be taken back.

"There are concepts in about taking the huge glass roof and lining that with a more attractive design over the top of the shopping arcade to create a more attractive, bright environment.

"The lift is going to be takenout and located in a new box office area of the building."

The decor of the Guild Hall and Charter Theatre, which host around 300 events per year and attract more than 100,000 visitors, is already being improved.

A new lounge bar – formerly the Celebrity Restaurant – is due to open in the coming weeks.

Chris Haylett, Guild Hall general manager, said: "The venue does need a makeover – there's no question about that.

"It positions us at the heart of the development.

"It means we get a new entrance right into one of Tithebarn's squares.

http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/5586/th1298200832picture1gk9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/th1298200832picture1gk9.jpg/1/w300.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img294/th1298200832picture1gk9.jpg/1/)

"We've got to look at our sustainability through the building process but once it's finished I think it's all very positive for the venue."

In 2006 the Evening Post reported how customers had deserted the 26-unit Guild Hall Arcade.

Shopkeepers said trade was "steady" but they were still uncertain about the future.

Nabila Pervaiz, sales advisor at Varanni Shoes, said the shop was due to relocate to Orchard Street soon.

She said: "It will improve the city centre but it's going to be difficult for the people who are renting out the shops here."

Another trader, who asked not to be named, said: "It's overdue, something needs to be done because of the empty building at the bottom that used to be Morrison's."

Coun Ken Hudson, leader of the council, said he hoped the Guild Hall would be a "premier venue" by 2012, the year of the next Guild.

He said: "All these venues need constant upgrading and they're very, very expensive to do.

"Hopefully, with Tithebarn, we'll be able to bring the Guild Hall into the 21st century."

... This sounds good. It's encouraging to see more news being shed on Tithebarn in the run up to Autumn when we're expecting the planning applications to be submitted and may, at last, see some detailed plans.

Nice to finally hear some news on this. I'm sure traders will be relieved that the arcade will still be a busy thoroughfare thanks to the new entrance. A new entrance round that side should also improve the appearance of the building, which currently stands firmly at fuck ugly.

Brilliant. Good to see that info is filtering through about whats going to happen. Would be interested to see what there going to do with the frontage. Would be nice if cafes and such opened out ontop the balcony at the front. To be honest do we actually expect any of the shops in there to stay once its done?

This can only happen if the Tithebarn does. The trading concept is that John Lewis will attract the footfall from the Fishergate retail area to make the units in the Guild Hall viable. It is self evident that 7 acres of bus parking could not support a Morrisons, and the traders that lived off them could not survive.
I expect that most of the traders will have to sell on two floors as the depth of the units with a wider Ground Floor won't work in trading terms.

I think it would be a nice place to have all the boutique shops and such

Why are the people in that artists impression all about 4 foot 6?

Why do i go to the bother of giving you a response and you ignore it?

Looks like the Fishergate Expansion has been put on hold. Their still going ahead with the multistory carpark however.

http://www.lep.co.uk/news/Shopping-centre-extension-on-hold.4442764.jp

No big loss really and if it gives Tithebarn more chance im all for Fishergate being put on hold. To be fair its there own fault for stalling, permission was granted in 2004 and it was meant to be finished in 2006. Wonder if that means that the buildings across the road from the centre will also be staying for a while longer.

Wonder whether Preston is one of those planned John Lewis stores that ends up not going ahead. (Independent on Sunday, today)

This would be one of those 'subtle' changes because of economic conditions the council was hinting at.

Because they've 'put all their eggs in one basket', a piece of news like that would cause the whole project to collapse like a house of cards. These are the risks you take when you trust big business with the future of your city.

If John Lewis is to not go ahead with a planned store(s), I very much doubt that Preston's would be even considered as it would be the closest one for all of Lancashire and Cumbria and would have a huge catchment area.

Wonder whether Preston is one of those planned John Lewis stores that ends up not going ahead. (Independent on Sunday, today)

This would be one of those 'subtle' changes because of economic conditions the council was hinting at.

Because they've 'put all their eggs in one basket', a piece of news like that would cause the whole project to collapse like a house of cards. These are the risks you take when you trust big business with the future of your city.

Would you just fuck off with you "all eggs in one basket" bullshit and tell us how you would do it differently. And dont know doesnt count as an answer.

Captain Jason, you are wasting your time. Riversider will slag off first and justify never.

He constantly belittled having a John Lewis in Preston, yet any attempts at educating him as to JL's employment credentials and the range of products they offer that cater for all levels of the population go totally ignored.

Ditto his constant rants about the so-called reduction in capacity at the bus station. Any efforts to raise the issue of slot management & utilisation go totally ignored, along with the point that half the current bus station is unused despite high frequency services to most major parts of Preston and environs.

Don't ever expect an intelligent discussion with Riversider.

Talks with a second anchor store for Preston's £750m Tithebarn regeneration scheme have reached the "legal" stage.

The Preston Tithebarn Partnership, made up of developers Grosvenor and Lend Lease, have said they are progressing with discussions with the unnamed retailer, believed to be Marks and Spencer.

It is expected there will be an announcement on the identity of the store within the next few months.

A spokesman said: "The Preston Tithebarn Partnership is currently in legal negotiations with a proposed tenant for the second department store – a leading UK retailer.

"News on the identity of the second anchor store will be released when legal discussions have been concluded."

The developers, who are expected to submit a planning application for the scheme in September, have already secured John Lewis as its flagship tenant.

I didn't reply to your points about how I would have done things differently, and about the Bus Station, because I have already posted extensively in this thread (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=234887&page=70 ) and elsewhere on exactly these topics, and tire of repetition.

You guys on the other hand never tire of the same repetitive cycle of posting wonderful renders of fantastic buildings that we never actually see. Like optimistic virgins you live in a perpetual state of anticipation that you never allow to be dampened by frustration.

How I would have done things differently:

Before I did anything else, I would have talked to the people of Preston to find out what their real priorities are.

The list would have included, building new shops and apartments for young professionals, tackling crime, improving public transport, sorting out housing problems of Preston families, keeping the streets and parks clean, youth and community facilities, looking after the environment, preserving what's left of Preston's heritage, keeping our post offices, plus several others.

I would have then focussed the council and Vision Boards time and energy on addressing the issues that came back highest. Building a new shopping centre, I dare to suggest, might have featured rather low on that list of the public's priorities.

I also suggest that had the council done this, and come up with a more modest plan that did not involve getting rid of the bus station, it would not have whipped up the problems that it did, and it would now be standing there, fully built and recession proof.

Instead of listening, they went for the risky 'all or nothing' 'all eggs in one basket' strategy as I've branded it from the beginning. As a consequence we've seen NO DEVELOPMENT IN THIS AREA FOR 10 YEARS. It's been catastrophic for local traders struggling to trade in an environment of uncertainty, secrecy and planning blight.

The council is hoping that this discomfort will be forgiven and forgotten if they can actually get the Tithebarn built.

The evidence of L1 in Liverpool though, is that it is simply sucking all the stores from the older areas, leaving them boarded up and bereft of trade - a two-zone socially divided city. If Preston ends up like this, the current crop of councillors and officials will never be forgiven by the people.

Your responses on the bus station are equally weak. The bus station has been deliberately run down over the last few years as the corporate and political suits are desperate to 'diss' this building in any way they can.

Your response to the problem that not enough people are using public transport, is to reduce our public transport capacity even further, making it impossible to get it up to the level it needs to be at if we're to seriously address all those carbon footprint problems the politicians pay lip service to.

I hope that development can happen in Preston, to reverse the blight that this very scheme has caused so far. I fear that because of the unwillingness of those responsible to listen, and their all or nothing risky, no compromise approach, we will end up with yet another decade of waiting for empty corporate promises of a wonderful golden future to actually materialise.

You guys on the other hand never tire of the same repetitive cycle of posting wonderful renders of fantastic buildings that we never actually see. Like optimistic virgins you live in a perpetual state of anticipation that you never allow to be dampened by frustration.
There is nothing wrong at all with being a little optimistic. You might want to try it. Then maybe you wouldn't go around promoting being miserable and faithless.

Before I did anything else, I would have talked to the people of Preston to find out what their real priorities are.
Ermmm.... they did do that. Believe it or not, a lot of Prestonians have some civic pride and care about having a decent city centre.

The list would have included, building new shops and apartments for young professionals, tackling crime, improving public transport, sorting out housing problems of Preston families, keeping the streets and parks clean, youth and community facilities, looking after the environment, preserving what's left of Preston's heritage, keeping our post offices, plus several others.
And do you think that the council hasn't been focussing on these issues since Tithebarn has been going on?

I would have then focussed the council and Vision Boards time and energy on addressing the issues that came back highest. Building a new shopping centre, I dare to suggest, might have featured rather low on that list of the public's priorities.
As you have already been told, Tithebarn isn't a shopping centre. And since its been 10 years since the scheme was first put forward, I think its safe to say the councils priorities lie elsewhere?

I also suggest that had the council done this, and come up with a more modest plan that did not involve getting rid of the bus station, it would not have whipped up the problems that it did, and it would now be standing there, fully built and recession proof.
Recession Proof?!?! What are you banging on about?! And do I really need to go through why the bus station HAS to go... again?

Instead of listening, they went for the risky 'all or nothing' 'all eggs in one basket' strategy as I've branded it from the beginning. As a consequence we've seen NO DEVELOPMENT IN THIS AREA FOR 10 YEARS. It's been catastrophic for local traders struggling to trade in an environment of uncertainty, secrecy and planning blight.
As I've said before, the area was in decline and needed a radical solution to turn it around. Any development put forward in the area since then has been trying to capitalise on the interest and rise in land values that Tithebarn has generated, and would not exist without it.

The evidence of L1 in Liverpool though, is that it is simply sucking all the stores from the older areas, leaving them boarded up and bereft of trade - a two-zone socially divided city. If Preston ends up like this, the current crop of councillors and officials will never be forgiven by the people.
The 'old' retail area of Liverpool is booming. The vast majority of stores in L1 are new to Liverpool. Only a tiny handful of chains opened alternative outlets or relocated in L1.

Your responses on the bus station are equally weak. The bus station has been deliberately run down over the last few years as the corporate and political suits are desperate to 'diss' this building in any way they can.
Investment in the bus station has been steady and effective in recent years. For example, it used to have the reputation as the most crime-prone area in the city centre. The council invested heavily in security and it is now the safest car park in the area. If you are talking about the bus station not being given a complete overhaul, the reason is because the cost would be mammoth, not too short of the figure we have for Tithebarn. The difference between removing the bus station though and investing in it is that by removing it, a problem is being solved. Investment would just delay the problem at an absolutely huge cost. A total utter waste of taxpayers money.

Your response to the problem that not enough people are using public transport, is to reduce our public transport capacity even further, making it impossible to get it up to the level it needs to be at if we're to seriously address all those carbon footprint problems the politicians pay lip service to.
:sleepy:
Have you been around Preston at all recently? We couldn't have any more buses if we tried! Yet even with the huge amounts of buses on the streets, the bus station is used nowhere near to capacity. As I've said before, I'm surprised by your attitude to wasting space considering you take an environmental stance on many issues.

There is nothing wrong at all with being a little optimistic. You might want to try it. Then maybe you wouldn't go around promoting being miserable and faithless.
I'm very optimistic, I think human beings are capable of solving most of the problems we are causing ourselves. Unlike you however, I don't however have any 'faith' in the ability of millionaire property developers to solve these problems.

Tithebarn isn't a shopping centre. And since its been 10 years since the scheme was first put forward, I think its safe to say the councils priorities lie elsewhere?
The council has devoted huge amounts of time, energy and thought to this scheme over the last 10 years. I think it is fair to say it has been distracted from thinking about the real big issues affecting Preston people.


do you think that the council hasn't been focussing on these issues since Tithebarn has been going on?

Clearly they haven't. They've even had times where they couldn't be bothered to meet as they thought there were no issues worth them discussing.

Recession Proof?!?! What are you banging on about?!
Just that if a more modest and sympathetic scheme had been developed, more in line with what Preston people want for the city, and preserving our public transport capacity, the thing would already be built by now. It would have been 'recession proof' because if it were already here, it will stay here regardless of the recession, rather than being further delayed, or even cancelled as the cold economic reality begins to bite.

The evidence of L1 in Liverpool though, is that it is simply sucking all the stores from the older areas, leaving them boarded up and bereft of trade - a two-zone socially divided city.

As Accura said, the majority of the unit take-ups have been "new to Liverpool" traders.
The increase in footfall to the Albert Dock since L1's opening has been astonishing. Through good planning, the linkage between the waterfront and the commercial centre has been greatly improved

To be honest its actually hard to fault L1. High quality builds. Reintergration of the street fabric. Bringing more jobs to the city. Expanding its retail offering. Ok some are vacant. But so what, the point is the capacity is there for when things pick up again. Also as Tark said i am still amazed how many people are at the Albert Dock since the opening of L1, its knitted the whole city together. As for relocations. Some have, but again this proves you have dont have the facts to back up your 'facts'. Most relocations have been followed with other stores in teh city expanding or opening new shops in the existing retail area. The only large store that i can think of thats standing empty in the existing retail core is the old John Lewis buildings. Thats getting occupied by m&s while there refurb there store. Then Rapid move into it to make way for the Central Village scheme.

To be honest my hope for Tithebarn is that it will somehow be able to reintergrate Church Street as at the moment it feels abit distant from the city, eventhough it clearly isnt.

You simply dont get the point do you about transport capacity. LIVERPOOL has only around 30 bays in its city centre. Liverpool is 10x bigger than Preston, literally. It also has a damn sight more buses running than Preston. So what makes you think that Preston needs an 80 bay bus station?

Before I did anything else, I would have talked to the people of Preston to find out what their real priorities are.

So nothing has been published on the Internet about TB, no masterplans nothing?

And there was no consultation at all?

The list would have included, building new shops and apartments for young professionals,
Building a new shopping centre, I dare to suggest, might have featured rather low on that list of the public's priorities.

So, you want new shops and apartments suitable for young professionals (why not low income, working families, what a terrible discrimination to make) but you don't want TB. I'll let everyone else work out what I am thinking - it won't take anyone here long!!!

Instead of listening, they went for the risky 'all or nothing' 'all eggs in one basket' strategy as I've branded it from the beginning.

So you would have prefered involving many different contractors/architects/companies etc. rather than have one organisation manage the whole project. If you think that would have improved things, I think it is not us being the "optamistic virgin" or whatever that patronising shite you spewed out was.

The evidence of L1 in Liverpool though, is that it is simply sucking all the stores from the older areas, leaving them boarded up and bereft of trade - a two-zone socially divided city.

I think others have provided better evidence of the impact on Liverpool which is rather more positive. Or did Albert Dock not deserve better integration?

Your response to the problem that not enough people are using public transport, is to reduce our public transport capacity even further, making it impossible to get it up to the level it needs to be at if we're to seriously address all those carbon footprint problems the politicians pay lip service to.

That I can recall, nobody has said anything like what you imply. You have bleated on about a smaller bus station equalling less public transport, when nothing of the sort will happen.

Many areas of Preston are served by bus services of 10 minute intervals, any effort to get you to see this has failed.

we will end up with yet another decade of waiting for empty corporate promises of a wonderful golden future to actually materialise.

Sadly, a chunk of the blame will lie with the likes of you if that occurs!

you want new shops and apartments suitable for young professionals (why not low income, working families, what a terrible discrimination to make) but you don't want TB. I'll let everyone else work out what I am thinking - it won't take anyone here long!!!

This shows the kind of deliberate misunderstanding my posts are being met with.

I said I would ask the people of Preston whether THEY wanted these things. I strongly suspect their answer would be that what was actually needed was, as you suggest, the housing for low income working families rather than more egg boxes for yuppies, but I would offer them the option - that's the idea of a consultation - it should be done without a pre-determined outcome (but perhaps it's me being an optimistic virgin here if I imagine our council would ever issue a consultation where they did not know the outcome in advance).

a chunk of the blame will lie with the likes of you if that occurs!
How on earth do you work that out? I'm saying that if the council had listened to the people, what they would have come up with would have been more in line with peoples wishes and needs, and therefore more likely to succeed.

Blaming me for pointing out faults and asking critical questions is like blaming someone who tells you that your car is knackered before you set out on your journey, for your failure to arrive at your destination, even though you totally ignored their advice. If unrelenting positivity, hype and wishful thinking actually made things work, we'd have no reason for safety checks on aircraft - we could keep them aloft by 'talking them up'. This is your captain speaking - the engines have cut out, but let's have no negative remarks or difficult questions, that could be fatal to this flight...

I said I would ask the people of Preston whether THEY wanted these things.
Yes...

I strongly suspect their answer would be that what was actually needed was, as you suggest, the housing for low income working families rather than more egg boxes for yuppies, but I would offer them the option
Consultant: "What would you like to see built in the Tithebarn area"
Poor Guy: "I want more money and a big house"
Consultant: "Did you misunderstand the question?"

The council have a responsibility to serve the collective interest of Prestonians. They cannot pick and choose what they want to deal with. Regeneration is something that must be done regardless of what else needs doing also, and vice-versa.

that's the idea of a consultation - it should be done without a pre-determined outcome (but perhaps it's me being an optimistic virgin here if I imagine our council would ever issue a consultation where they did not know the outcome in advance).
Despite your utopian communist view about how people would be genuinely concerned with the collective needs of people who live here, the sad truth is, they're not. This is highlighted in the letters that the LEP receives, especially concerning the accessibility of the bus station. Occasionally you would get a pensioner writing in complaining about how they would have to walk further to get to the markets (despite it only being a few extra metres) and how it would make life difficult for them and how Tithebarn should not go ahead. So in that persons opinion, them getting to the markets a few seconds quicker is more important than a project which could potentially improve the lives of the 300,000 people who live here.

Its the same with ex-pats who occasionally write in as well. Because of their sentiments about a town that they deserted, the people who still live here and didn't bugger off should suffer.

How on earth do you work that out? I'm saying that if the council had listened to the people, what they would have come up with would have been more in line with peoples wishes and needs, and therefore more likely to succeed.
The council did a study before deciding on the concept. Besides, what else could possibly have been built? Mixed use is perfect for a site of this size and location.

Blaming me for pointing out faults and asking critical questions is like blaming someone who tells you that your car is knackered before you set out on your journey, for your failure to arrive at your destination, even though you totally ignored their advice. If unrelenting positivity, hype and wishful thinking actually made things work, we'd have no reason for safety checks on aircraft - we could keep them aloft by 'talking them up'. This is your captain speaking - the engines have cut out, but let's have no negative remarks or difficult questions, that could be fatal to this flight...
Planes are always at risk of crashing. Should we just stop flying them? There is always a degree of risk, but at the moment, the Tithebarn area is currently the aviation equivalent of being at the Las Vegas scrapyard.

Consultant: "What would you like to see built in the Tithebarn area" (Thinks: As if anyone's going to listen...)
Poor Guy: "I want more money and a big house"
Consultant: "Did you misunderstand the question?" (Thinks: I am getting more money and a big house!)

So you're suggesting consultation is a waste of time because people will ask for things that actually benefit them, rather than just the developers, businessmen and their army of consultants?

This contradicts your later statement that what happens should be in the collective interest of Prestonians. What I suspect you mean is that development should be in the collective interest of Prestonians, unless you are a skint Prestonian or a pensioner. When they point out your changes will mean further to walk, steep hills etc, you should listen - they are pointing out BAD PLANNING and BAD DESIGN.

Planes are always at risk of crashing. Should we just stop flying them?
Where do I suggest that we should not fly planes, or that there should be no development? I am suggesting that a strategy of listening, rather than arrogance and greed, is more likely to succeed, and would lead to better outcomes for EVERYONE.

the Tithebarn area is currently the aviation equivalent of being at the Las Vegas scrapyard largely due to a decade of planning blight, where nothing has been allowed to happen in the area.

largely due to a decade of planning blight, where nothing has been allowed to happen in the area.
I would say it's more like the last four decades, that area has become stagnant ever since the bus station was built. But soon it will be no more. Hurrah!

Riversider, if your going to respond to peoples posts could you not just pick and chose what parts of their post you reply to. Its actually annoying. Everyone else has covered what i would say. However planning blight. Two apartment buildings have been stopped. Which would have benefitted no one apart from the handful of people who would have lived in them and the developers. Hardly planning blight is is it.

Two apartment buildings have been stopped. Jason, you must be old enough to know that for every application that got turned down, there will be 10 that people didn't even bother to submit - why go to the time and expense of making plans when you know full well those plans will be rejected?

I suspect that those two planning applications that were actually made were done to make a point, rather than with any realistic expectation that they would ever be passed.

could you not just pick and chose what parts of their post you reply to.
Let me know which part of your post I've neglected to reply to, and that I haven't already written about extensively elsewhere, and I'll be pleased to grace it with a reply. If I had to make a full reply to every single word that was said to me here, we'd be here till Tithebarn actually gets started.

I suspect that those two planning applications that were actually made were done to make a point, rather than with any realistic expectation that they would ever be passed.


True. The universally held belief in the city planning department is that the point was a calculated risk which has been taken by the "developers": specificly that the fees paid to the architects (say £40K tops) would be less than the increase in CPO value of the site for a scheme which is capable (on paper) of generating several million. I'll bet that at the very least the paper value of the land has gone up by more than fees paid to consultants. This may adversely affect our council taxes, which is why commercially sensitive business dealings are generally kept out of the information realm of the general public, so vultures like these don't get free pickings at the taxpayers' expense.

That sounds a very feasible explanation, another way of understanding it is that they were doing it to illustrate what the potential value of the land could be, so that they would get a fair price for the land, rather than one which reflects the devaluation caused by the planning blight in the area - essentially the same phenomenon as you describe, but seen from a different viewpoint - I suppose it depends who you see as the 'vultures' and what you see as the 'corpse'.

Where I disagree is that I believe the culture of commercial secrecy actually gives all those 'vultures' behaviour protection from public scrutiny. Developers are clever, networked and resourceful enough to gather all the intelligence they need, whether or not it is officially 'secret' - and maggots breed in the dark.

Can i just ask you afew questions Riversider?

When you say modest plan what do you mean? Turning down 700 million worth of investment? Surely you must know that most of the land within Tithebarn is that of the Bus Station.

Why do you think that Preston needs a 80 bay bus station when a city the size of Liverpool (1.5 million people or something like that) has around 30.

You use Liverpool One as an example. Have you actually had a proper look round it and seen it for yourself? Seen how it flows and intergrates into the city.

What Heritidge is Preston losing? Did i miss Tithebarn being made a World Heritidge Site?

Planning Blight? Do you honestly think that the area would redevelop itself without Tithebarn? It hasnt in the past 40 years. Anything that has been proposed is hardly of benefit to Preston. There are plenty of run down buildings on Church Street and you dont see developers clamouring over themselves to get them. No they want space in Tithebarn as thats where the money is.

Secondly you tell me how you would get what Tithebarn is offering Preston without demolishing the Bus Station and without using one developer.

Preston is to get a massive new three-storey Marks and Spencer store – more than double the size of the current one in the city centre.

The retail giant has signed on the dotted line as the second flagship store for the £750m Tithebarn regeneration scheme, alongside John Lewis.

The 150,000 sq ft store – more than twice the size of two football pitches – will be built close to the Minster.

And Marks and Spencer bosses today said a "substantial" number of jobs will be created by the move, which has been described as a huge shot-in-the-arm for Preston.

Jim Carr, chief executive of Preston Council, said: "You could not wish for better anchor stores than Marks and Spencer and John Lewis."

It comes as the current M&S store on Fishergate was relaunched after a £6m revamp, with staff told they will move to the new Tithebarn store when it opens in 2014.

The 60,000 sq ft Fishergate store is likely to be bought by the Preston Tithebarn Partnership (PTP) as "a development opportunity" once the new store is open.

Excellent News. Shows that the Ball is still rolling with Tithebarn.

Do you know if PCC have got a similar clause that was in Liverpool Once where Grosvenor are responsible to fill any vacated stores?

Yes indeed. With two major retailers behind it, Tithebarn is looking pretty good. The whole area will be far better when its done, and it could help fill up all the almost empty office buildings around Tithebarn. It will certainly help integrate Tithebarn into the City centre.

Fantastic news :)

Can we start building it now? ;)

I'll answer all your questions without being selective CJ:

When you say modest plan what do you mean? Turning down 700 million worth of investment? Surely you must know that most of the land within Tithebarn is that of the Bus Station.

That's the point CJ - because the amount of investment is so high, it has robbed our council of any inclination to scrutinise or criticise the plans, in case we might lose all that cash. The amount involved means that there are myriad possiblities, including possibilities that integrate the bus station structure into the final development. These didn't get consideration because it's always cheaper and easier to flatten everything and start from ground zero.

Why do you think that Preston needs a 80 bay bus station when a city the size of Liverpool (1.5 million people or something like that) has around 30.

Are you saying that enough people use public transport in Liverpool? Clearly this is not the case. In both Preston and Liverpool, we need to get more people using buses, for longer as well as shorter journeys. One way to do this is to make sure our bus station buildings are as prestigious and well maintained as our airports, thus changing the general perception of public transport as something 'second class' and undesireable.

You use Liverpool One as an example. Have you actually had a proper look round it and seen it for yourself? Seen how it flows and intergrates into the city. Yes, I went recently, and many stores were still unoccupied. No idea where the stores will come to occupy the second and third phases, if they are having this amount of trouble filling the first.

What Heritidge is Preston losing? Did i miss Tithebarn being made a World Heritidge Site? Over the years the council and developers have had a very cavalier attitude to our heritage. The savaging of the Corn Exchange, the destruction of the Town Hall, the severing of Friargate from the main town are all examples of this. Our bus station is now part of our heritage.

Planning Blight? Do you honestly think that the area would redevelop itself without Tithebarn? It hasnt in the past 40 years. Anything that has been proposed is hardly of benefit to Preston. There are plenty of run down buildings on Church Street and you dont see developers clamouring over themselves to get them. No they want space in Tithebarn as thats where the money is.
I'm not disputing that there are plenty of developers clamouring for a slice of the Tithebarn pie, and feeling aggrieved that they've been cut out of it all.

I'd suggest that people with no imagination cannot envisage how things could be any different from how they are. You for example, cannot see any alternative to how Tithebarn has been implemented. A little more imagination and creativity would have seen the challenge of integrating the bus station into the final plan as a great opportunity to come up with interesting and innovative solutions. Instead we're getting clonetown.

Secondly you tell me how you would get what Tithebarn is offering Preston without demolishing the Bus Station and without using one developer. There are plenty of people who will build more shops. Perhaps we should be courageous and start thinking about what the people of Preston REALLY need?

Finally the reporting of the M&S store is an example of how anything to do with Tithebarn is hyped up and distorted.

It is being reported as 'a new M&S store', when in fact what is happening is that the existing M&S store will move into the Tithebarn. Tithebarn will gain, Fishergate will lose. If the information around this scheme was more objective, and not so spun and hyped, I might feel a little less suspicious of it all.

That's the point CJ - because the amount of investment is so high, it has robbed our council of any inclination to scrutinise or criticise the plans, in case we might lose all that cash. The amount involved means that there are myriad possiblities, including possibilities that integrate the bus station structure into the final development. These didn't get consideration because it's always cheaper and easier to flatten everything and start from ground zero.

The council ultimately are the client. They will have showen various developers their vision and then picked the one which would be able to deliver what the council wanted. In this case Grosvenor. With the Bus Station completely agree that it should have been intergrated into the masterplan. But it wasnt as you had NIMBYS campainging to save it as a Bus Station, so not to save the building but its use. To be honest most of their reasons were just laughable.
To Quote from the Save the Bus Station Website...
"Modern diesal buse are probably more polluting than the buses in use in the 1960's"
No Wonder they were ignored. If people have campaigned to save the building maybe things would have been different.

Are you saying that enough people use public transport in Liverpool? Clearly this is not the case. In both Preston and Liverpool, we need to get more people using buses, for longer as well as shorter journeys. One way to do this is to make sure our bus station buildings are as prestigious and well maintained as our airports, thus changing the general perception of public transport as something 'second class' and undesireable.

Have you actually seen how many people use the buses and stations in Liverpool. Clearly not. Every part of Liverpool is serviced by buses. The reason they dont need some huge bus station is because they plan the usage of the stations, opposed to using prime city centre land as somewhere to park buses. Even Manchester, a city of 2.5 million people and Europes busiest bus corridor (Oxford Road) doesnt need an 80 bay bus station. To suggest that Preston needs 80 bays you must also have ideas for other areas that need bus services? Or is Preston going to become a city of a couple of million overnight?

To be honest using buses for long journeys is abit of a no go. They take far to long as they stop in every village, town and city between Preston and your destination. Train to Chorley, 15/20 mins, Bus to Chorley, 1 hour.

The Problem with Preston bus station is that it isnt prestigious and it doesnt work. It is on an island which means that people have to use subways, people dont like using subways. Its also far to cut off to sustain any sort of retail within it. You can see how unpopular the bus station is by how many people catch buses on Lancaster Road/Fishergate. Lets face it people barely even use it for parking their car. If you look on the electronic signs only time it ever goes above 50% full is xmas.


Yes, I went recently, and many stores were still unoccupied. No idea where the stores will come to occupy the second and third phases, if they are having this amount of trouble filling the first.


Liverpool One wasnt even designed to open in 2008. It was due to pressure from the council that it would. Also there have been a steady opening of units since its opening. Liverpool One is zones. So the areas that are opening in phase two is the boutique fashion, hardware and food courts. Phase 3 is the Hotel and One Park West, so no shops there. Alot of the relocations are already being filled. The only one that i can think of is the former Disney store which is in such a prominant location that its not going to stay empty forever.

Over the years the council and developers have had a very cavalier attitude to our heritage. The savaging of the Corn Exchange, the destruction of the Town Hall, the severing of Friargate from the main town are all examples of this. Our bus station is now part of our heritage.


Corn exchange and the ringroad were due to Lancashire County Council. Someone who Preston is stuck with thanks to South Ribble. As for the Town Hall dont know the details but i assume that the city (town then) couldnt afford to have it rebuilt. Which i think is a great loss for the city. But i dont blame the current coucil for things that happened 40 years ago.

I'm not disputing that there are plenty of developers clamouring for a slice of the Tithebarn pie, and feeling aggrieved that they've been cut out of it all.

I'd suggest that people with no imagination cannot envisage how things could be any different from how they are. You for example, cannot see any alternative to how Tithebarn has been implemented. A little more imagination and creativity would have seen the challenge of integrating the bus station into the final plan as a great opportunity to come up with interesting and innovative solutions. Instead we're getting clonetown.


How do you know we are getting clone town? Have you seen the detailed plans? Remember the ones that appeared in the LEP were provisional. I.e. show massings. I could imagine the Area with the Bus Station but people campaigning for the wrong thing at the start put the end to that. I think the Bus Station would be ace as some sort of Civic Centre. Because lets face it it is the most iconic building in Preston. People always go weak kneed over the Harris but lets face it, how many of them are around the country.

There are plenty of people who will build more shops. Perhaps we should be courageous and start thinking about what the people of Preston REALLY need?

But thats the point, no one has. Apart from the expasion of Fishergate we have had nothing. For Preston to stay competative it needs a massive expansion of its retail an leisure offering. What makes you think that people dont want this? Do you think that people dont want a city centre they can be proud of? Or one ne that they can do more in apart from just shop? Thats what Tithebarn is offering.

Yes, I went recently, and many stores were still unoccupied. No idea where the stores will come to occupy the second and third phases, if they are having this amount of trouble filling the first.

Most of Phase 2 is already pre-let with tenants still being signed on.

Riversider, perhaps you should take a trip over to the Liverpool One thread on the Liverpool forum. That was you can see exactly whats going on.

I said I wouldnt argue with you riversider, but I just couldnt resist this:


Are you saying that enough people use public transport in Liverpool? Clearly this is not the case. In both Preston and Liverpool, we need to get more people using buses, for longer as well as shorter journeys. One way to do this is to make sure our bus station buildings are as prestigious and well maintained as our airports, thus changing the general perception of public transport as something 'second class' and undesireable.


1. In a city the size of Liverpool, public transport is a very good way of going large distances. The bus network in Liverpool is well utilised (although there are times when utilisation is low, however that is true of all public transport routes. Even London Underground has slow periods), however despite the size of the city and thus the number of busses involved, the bus station is still half the size of Preston's. The reason is that Liverpool's busses go back to warehouses owned by the bus operators at times when they are not in use, as happens in every other large town or city. In Preston however the bus operators simply park their busses in the bus station's bays.
As for getting more people on to public transport, I believe that that one way to do that is cut down the bus frequency at off peak times to one bus every fifteen (as opposed to ten) minutes. This would probably get a few more people onto every bus. I can't think of any other ways right now, but I am no businessman, and I dont pretend to be an expert on public transport.

2. Bringing Preston Bus Station up to 'airport standard' would probably cost more than building a new bus station (which would not be at 'airport standard', but would be far better than the current bus station) an, in fact, cos more than Tithebarn itself. Added to which (and here I repeat points previously stated by accura) it would be simply delaying fate. The bus station will be demolished eventually anyway (what goes up must come down), so why delay that when we could have a bus station with better facilities, proper pedesrtian access that doesnt mean that you go under a bus or get mugged, and probably tourist information desks and better access to the city centre and the train station.
For an example of a good bus station, look no further than chorley. Its small, and isnt exactly new, but its really quite nice. It isnt cold inside, it's just across the road from the train station, inside it looks modern and really quite well finished and has proper tourist information, unvandalised vending machines, payphones and some fairly good loos. Preston bus station pales in comparison, which is poor considering that Chorely has rather less money for public transport when compared with Preston.

Are you saying that enough people use public transport in Liverpool? Clearly this is not the case.

Evidence please. Please provide bus service utilisation in Liverpool that supports your argument.

In both Preston and Liverpool, we need to get more people using buses, for longer as well as shorter journeys.

Actually trains would be better for longer journeys. Buses are fine for shorter suburban journeys, and Preston is more than adequately provided for.

One way to do this is to make sure our bus station buildings are as prestigious and well maintained as our airports

No, it just needs to be a clean, pleasant environment. Personally I don't want a bus station that looks like Heathrow Terminal 1, 2 or 3 thanks very much.


I'd suggest that people with no imagination cannot envisage how things could be any different from how they are. You for example, cannot see any alternative to how Tithebarn has been implemented.

I'd imagine we'd have multiple contractors/architects fighting with one another over designs, integration of plans etc. etc. Or worse, we'd have you moaning about TB being a mass of disparate areas not one clear whole....

A little more imagination and creativity would have seen the challenge of integrating the bus station into the final plan

So having a new bus station a straight-line walk from the city centre (as opposed to subways, lefts, rights etc) doesn't integrate it?

There are plenty of people who will build more shops. Perhaps we should be courageous and start thinking about what the people of Preston REALLY need?

What, like a cinema? A better street environment? Areas for small businesses? Sheesh, who'd bother including that.....

It is being reported as 'a new M&S store',

It is a new store. End of story. Fishergate will still thrive though the location of the rail station and the Fishergate Centre which hopefully will still go ahead in the future.

Added to which, the current M&S store on Fishergate is in a prime location in the City centre, and with Tithebarn coming over the next few years (and already bringing in investment and new businesses), I would think that another fairly large retailer (or a couple of smaller retailers) will end up occupying the Fishergate premises. I doubt the loss of M&S from Fishergate will have any significant impact on trade within the existing retail centres.

Hello everyone

I have been reading your blogs for a long time now - only finally got my act together and actually signed up to this site! A little about me - I'm a Prestonian and am a strong believer in the need to develop our city. I'm currently a mature student training to be a surveyor at the University of Salford's School of the built environment.

anyway - I have copious amounts of opinions on Preston's various developments ...I'm afraid riversider you are not likely agree with my opinions! :lol:

just to pick up on wazcaster's point about the current m&s site - I used to work at m&s until just over a year ago and had been told then that we would pretty much certainly be moving up the road ...but at that time they were also thinking of keeping a smaller "simply food" shop at the current site. With the fishergate shop being a main thoroughfare to st. georges, perhaps the building could be converted into another "arm" of the shopping centre?? There is of course alot of talk about tithebarn and fishergate centre expansion - from what i know, st. georges owners havent come up with any of their own ambitious plans to compete ...yet. I certainly think direct access from M&S front doors area directly into the middle area of the shopping centre needs to stay open - it could be very detrimental to st. georges if that link route was lost!

Welcome to the forum :) Always nice to have more input.

Interesting idea about converting it into another arm of St Georges Centre. I'd totally forgotten that there was a pedestrian link through to the shopping centre!

I wouldn't put much hope on M&S at the moment, from what I've witnessed over the past year at work.. :S

Welcome to the forum Pround Preston. Good idea using M&S as another exit from the center. Though you could get a rather big shop in it as it is.

forgot to mention, I saw that the new student accommodation on the one way road coming off the ringway up to Corporation street (is it Marsh Lane??? :|) is now externally complete (or near enough) and looks really fresh (in the surrounding area) pity it weren't a wee bit taller cos its a good lil design and with the brunel extension beyond it the area is looking quite a corridor for newbie developments

Welcome to the forum proud preston and dont worry about riversider. He doesnt agree with anybody's opinions, and sometimes he doesnt agree with the facts.
It is quite possible that the M&S store could become part of St Georges, and I agree that keeping the pedestrian link through to the shopping centre would be quite a good thing to keep.

@ferge: Student accommodation isn't half varied. I'll take a look at it next time I'm in Preston, but from the sounds of it, its the decent sort of student accomodation (the nice looking stuff, the opposite of the moor lane halls).

Sorry to be such a party pooper - but you missed me when I wasn't here.

Have a read of this - Cardiff, one of the most hallowed of all the Cult of Concretes' sacred places, and the 'model' from which the Vision Board pinched most of its ideas, has been left in the lurch by its' developers, with half finished buildings now standing there, left to rot, and blue green algae infesting the barrage, an object lesson in what happens when millionaire developers are given free rein. Could it happen here? - we'd better pray it doesn't.

http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/articles/6381

ferge, do you mean specifically the building on the right of marsh lane as you head towards corporation st, just being finished off at the moment? I understand that is going to be the new Legacy Hotel isn't it? Yes you're right that gateway into the city centre is looking much smarter now :colgate:

an interesting choice of website to source that biased infomation from, riversider ...i'm guessing u didnt vote for mrs. thatcher in the 80's

Cardiff is a great city :cool:

But not good enough for Riversider

http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/3971/13rbl9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/3971/13rbl9.aecd65422b.jpg (http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=520&i=13rbl9.jpg)
http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/9787/14lsc1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/9787/14lsc1.441504a18f.jpg (http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=520&i=14lsc1.jpg)

Glad to see that they arnt demolishing to much of Church Street with the bus station. Hopefully that design will mean the end to people dodging the buses. Whats the section of? I cant quite place it?

I don't know the location, I think it's supposed to be one of the car parks.

Hi folks;
I was just looking in my old P.C. files to respond to something Captain Jason mentioned in post 2141, and stumbled across the stuff below. I wrote it in 2002 (before joining SC) and forgot about it half way through, probably because I got a PC virus or something more important came up - but there's some ideas here to debate to make a change from the Tithebarn! I haven't changed anything - obviously I wrote the title before the text, which is why I didn't get up to 25!
How about us Prestonians use this as a base, (debateing whether some should be omitted or changed) and come up with 10 more ideas to get to the 25 of the title?




And Generally Making Britain Better!


1) Efficient Use and Siting of Wind Turbines.
The production of electricity using modern windmills is an effective and environmentally sensitive way of supplying electricity to the National Grid. Singularly, they can be a simple and attractive piece of engineering design. Plurally, as usually seen on the wind farm, the tall, spinning arms collectively wave hello to the observer in a most friendly and agreeable manner for miles around.
In that turbines will generate maximum returns from the investment by constructing them in windy locations, in northern Britain we tend to find them in remote, hilly and picturesque landscapes. Now such parts of the country generally have rather poor mobile phone reception.
The mobile phone network operators have understandably placed the majority of their transmitters in densely populated urban areas to satisfy the needs of the vast majority of their customers. Their spindley vertical cobwebs of steel and aluminium poke above our rooftops in indiscriminate fashion, lacking in any aesthetic quality and worrying parents and doctors as to the long term effects of their strong electromagnetic waves on those who have to spend large portions of their days in the aerials’ immediate vicinity.
Yet a very significant minority of mobile phone customers, particularly in the sales, repping and haulage industries, require adequate roaming coverage through the sparsely inhabited mountainous landscapes so suited to the needs of the wind turbine farmers. Could not mobile phone transmitters be attached to the leeward side of the turbines?
There would be no need for ugly masts when attached to attractive turbines, and they would have a built in power supply!
Two birds and a single stone come to mind.

2) Overhead Motorway Signage Gantries
In a busy world of transport where lives, let alone time, is saved by conveying vital information quickly and succinctly to motorway drivers, such gantries are a necessity on our public transport arteries. They typically span 15 metres or more at a height of 6 metres or so above the carriageways. Any self-supporting rigid structure for such design loads needs to be quite substantial when exposed to wind and snow.
Quite why these strong and expensive structures are frequently placed just a few metres in front of road bridges which can support any number of 44-ton artics is a waste of resources. Can’t we attach such gantries to existing bridges when they are already conveniently located?
3) Urban Signage
Even when the public utility companies are not digging up our pavements, they are full of posts and obstructions; for traffic direction, street lamps, parking restriction notices, pedestrian directions (normally in mock Victoriana style), posting boxes, pay & display or parking meters, kerb protection railings, bus stop posts and so on. Some are essential, many superfluous and perhaps out of date.
A significant amount of the signage and lighting posts could be attached to adjacent buildings at the back of the pavement, if Local Authorities could be bothered to save the money.
Essential bus stops, posting boxes and kerbside parking pay points should double up as “Information Points” for much of the remainder the pavement obstructions. Any vandalism to these Information Points should be reported immediately to the relevant authority by their institutional regular visitors, such as bus drivers, Royal Mail collectors and Parking Wardens.
In urban areas, in lieu of a small charge levied by the Royal Mail on the local authority for rent and status reporting on their “Information Point” posting boxes, the L.A. would be contracted to keep the boxes spotless and graffito free. On certain rural bus routes, drivers who use post boxes as stopping points could also do collections, saving millions of gallons of petrol/diesel over the years. The Trade Unions must be persuaded that this is not demarcation, but a means of ensuring and enhancing the viability and vitality of essential rural bus and postal services. Or form a new Union called “The Rural Bus & Postal Services Union”.
At the very least, quinquennial surveys and reports on the state of our pavement cluttering signage should be commissioned.
4) Motorway Lighting

Despite the light pollution created, the lighted sections of our motorways are much more comfortable to drive along on long winter nights, and contribute to motoring safety. The central reservation and verges of our motorways are already self-evidently environmentally blighted. Why not fit these areas with continuous solar panel strips to supply the lights and even contribute to the national grid during times of excess production? Think of the solar strips as a power station a metre wide by three hundred kilometres long on free land.


5) Bus fares
Why are the fares of our local company not in multiples of 50p for working adults and 20p for o.a.p.s and children etc.? Why don’t we have night buses in our town at double the price? This would pay for conductors to enhance public safety, as much by reducing taxi queues as on the buses themselves.
6) Traffic Lights at Night
Many urban intersections would be much more efficient if they went “part-time” between, say, midnight and 5am from Sunday to Thursday. Set to flashing red, this would signify compulsory STOP regulations during these light traffic load periods and stop the fossil fuel wastage of idling engines whilst waiting for a green at these times.
7) Wire pollution
All gas and water mains are laid underground causing minimal visual pollution. Why cannot the same be achieved with electrical and telephonic connections? Electricity mains are underground in national parks to eliminate the need for pylons, which enhances the environment considerably. Not only would the elimination of pylons do much for the visual environment of the rest of the country, but it would also prevent power outages resulting from Britain’s occasional freak-weather hurricanes and snowstorms. The power companies ought to be regulated to spend £1 on underground investment for every £1 spend on overground repairs.
8) Build more stations
Local services to major commuter destinations and populations outside London are desperately under-served. Locally, why is there no station at Lancaster University, or Galgate, or Garstang, served off a third line to keep the fast inter-city lines uncongested if necessary? Simple options for reducing road traffic demands are not explored because we do not have an integrated transport policy.
9) Motorway Intersections
Where no regional rail improvement opportunities are available (as Point 8 above), additional motorway junctions should be added to reduce loads on local roads.
10) Norbert Dentressangle
Why do I see so many of his haulage vehicles in Lancashire? Surely any artic or container entering the country that has a more than 200km onward journey within these shores should be forced on to the rails.


11) Cycle Lanes
Painting a dashed white line at the side of a road, with or without red tarmac, does not a cycle lane make. Such lanes are a sop and waste of money. Serious cycle friendly and cycle only routes need to be created away from main car routes.
12) Congestion Charging
I saw this in a letter to the Independent. In London, rather than introducing a new complicated system for £5 per day, why not insist that every non-resident vehicle within the central area must display a valid Travelcard (£4.20 per day, with a plethora of existing ticketing points)? The money goes directly to public transport and having had to pay for a bus or a tube, one might think twice about whether to take the car in to the city after all.
13) National Spring Cleaning
14) Adopt-a-Highway Cleaning

the current M&S store on Fishergate was relaunched after a £6m revamp

Went in M&S for the first time since the "revamp" at the weekend. I admit we only went on the ground and lower ground floors, but can someone please tell me where the f**k they spent £6m??? All I could see were some new signs and partitions, nothing radical and not in line with the new corporate interior design!

Yes I was more impressed with the Topshop revamp!

I know. I went in there on saturday, but I couldnt find any real evidence of a major makeover, unless they can spend £6 million on new signs, in which case they must be reallygood signs.

Sorry to veer off the subject, but I've just got a few questions about some of the projects after looking at the projects list yesterday. Firstly, if the Frank Whittle CBD proposal deosnt get built, will any of them become Preston's new tallest (which will be over 59m once Tithebarn starts demolition)? Secondly, isnt glovers court already approved, I'm sure I saw a notice of approval for a 6 storey building on glovers court in the public notices section of the LEP a few weeks ago.

The only one that may be the tallest is the tallest block of the Linen Buildings. Obviously that project is currently on hold while Countryside Properties conduct a review of all their projects. Another possibility is the 'landmark' we are supposed to be getting as part of Tithebarn, but that remains to be seen until detailed plans are unveiled.

I emailed the adress on the Tithebarn website to ask when the detailed planning app will be submitted, and apparently, a 'hybrid planning application' will be submitted later this week, and will be available to view in the following weeks. I can't seem to get any information of 'The Landmark', but I'm guessing they arent going to go into specific buildings yet.

Fewer than 15 buildings will be left standing when the Tithebarn project sweeps away the heart of Preston city centre.
The true scale of demolition needed to make way for the £700m regeneration project can be revealed for the first time today.

Around 14 buildings, including the Guild Hall and Lowthian House, will survive in the so-called Heart of the Tithebarn Regeneration Area.

Every other building – around 25 in total – in the area bounded by Ring Way, Tenterfield Street, Ormskirk Road and Carlisle Street to the north, Market Street, Birley Street and Lancaster Road to the west, Pole Street, Unicentre House and Ring Way to the east and south of Church Street to Manchester Road, Oak Street, Laurel Street and St John's Place, will be razed.

Church Row, Guild Row and Nile Street will also be included in the project. And notices of planned alterations to the Fish Market and Covered Market, two of the buildings which will survive the mass cull, have been posted.

The two structures will be partly revamped to include restaurants and bars.

Some are predicting chaos when the work begins in 2010.

Nicholas Watson, chief executive of Preston's Chamber of Trade, said: "It is going to look a mess.

"A key question is how much of the materials from the buildings being torn down is going to be recycled. If it is not going to be recycled we are going to have more trucks than we know what to do with.
"We have got to make sure traffic and parking issues are dealt with."

Hillary Mitchell, boss of Church Street-based Fastline Superbikes, one of the stores which will be demolished, welcomed news the project was finally moving forward, but said Tithebarn has left her business and others in "limbo".

"It is going to be fantastic when it is completed and will bring a lot of business into the city but, like all the other businesses affected, we have all been left in limbo and we are all suffering."

The start of work on Tithebarn will also lead to the bus station being slashed in half with the loss of 584 spaces as work on the new John Lewis store begins. Eventually the whole bus station will go, with a new, smaller, station built on the corner of Manchester Road.

Mark Robinson, of Kenmore, the company which owns Lowthian House, said: "We want to manage the situation and make sure the level of disruption is kept to a minimum, but we appreciate that it is a bigger picture and long term we would like to think our building will benefit from developments in the wider area.

"Part of the reason we got involved in Preston is because we can see there was further investment going into the city."

For full details see Wednesday's Lancashire Evening Post.

The man behind Preston's £700m regeneration has vowed the project would give the city a character all its own.
Richard Coppell of the Preston Tithebarn Partnership spoke as long-awaited plans for the development arrived at the Town Hall.

Preston people will be able to see the outline plans – and have their say on them – when a major consultation exercise begins next week.

Mr Coppell promised a "distinctive" and "quality" development which will finally put the city on the map.

The 1.5million sq ft scheme, anchored by a flagship John Lewis store and a big Marks and Spencer, will feature more than 100 shops, new restaurants and cafes and a cinema.

Mr Coppell said Preston's existing shops were "poor" and Tithebarn would "put the city on the map from a retail point of view."

He went on to dismiss suggestions the development would be bland.

He said: "We don't want this to look like any other development.

"We are employing seven different architect practices to ensure variety, quality and distinctive design.

"At the moment it is a city without decent shopping in it...it has not got the modern shopping you would expect of a city of this status."

For the full story, see Thursday's Lancashire Evening Post.

Loyalprestonian, the Unicentre isnt part of Tithebarn. The plans on the Tithebarn website show that it isnt going. The only buildings that will be going are The Guild Centre, St Johns Shopping Centre, existing bus station, Big D Homestore building, Duchy and Pallentine House, indoor market building and Lancastria House. The most substantial demolition job for Tithebarn will be the bus station and the only building on that list that I will be slightly sad to see go will be the guild centre.
Its not a question of the number of buldings anyway. The buildings that will be going are more or less all pretty shit, and by the time Tithebarn is completed there will a lot of buildings there that arent.

I went into the newly refurbished UCLAN library today, and I've got to say it looks absolutely STUNNING. They have done an absolutely fantastic job refitting the ground floor. Certainly not the kind of building you would expect to find in Preston :P It was already better than the Harris, but now it really puts it to shame. New city library please? :)

Nothing beats sitting in the Harris drinking a coffee and watching the pendulum. You can find me there most days, and I've been amazed by the pendulum and the awesome space it travels through since I was a child.

It certainly makes a visit to the library or museum quite a meaningful experience.

The atrium part is fine. I'm talking about the library itself. Its way too small and outdated.

When you say the Guild Centre is going, are you meaning the big brown office block? Is that hittin the dust? Its about the only decent (and prominant) multi-storey in Preston

Yep, the sort of brick coloured one at the end of the bus station. I agree that so far its the only decent tall ish building in Preston, but theres more fairly tall buildings coming along. Lets hope the Frank Whittle proposal (around 25 storeys) gets approval. It might, but time will tell.

Shitters..

Thought the idea was to give the city a more city feel, taking down its only decent multi-storey is hardly playing to that idea

Hopefully it will be replaced with something bigger. Doubt it though...

It won't, unless Tithebarn's 'Landmark' that accura mentioned is taller, if the 18 storey tower of the Linen Building is taller (it would have to have a 4m floor to cieling height though, which is unlikely in a resi building), or if the FWP CBD proposal is approved.
If not, the Unicentre will become the tallest at 59m. There is an outside chance that the tower in the docklands development will be taller, but its unlikely.

From what I can gather, the site the guild centre stands on now will become the second department store for Tithebarn. From the sketches that might be 7 stories, however its probably only going to be 5 or 6 at most, so the likelihood of a new tallest going on that particular site is very slim indeed. As for city buildings, by the looks of the sketches of Tithebarn, the offices that are going to come out of that actually look pretty crap five storey blocks, basically shorter versions of what there is now. None of the rubbish office blocks across from the bus station will be going, and neither will the unicentre. I dont think Lowthian is budging either.

What Preston needs is a nice modern glassy 20 storie tower to replace Guild House. Chances of it happening are slim though. Dont you think that out of the construction boom that has happened Preston literally got naff all out of it.

out of the construction boom that has happened Preston literally got naff all out of it.

That's the point I've kept making over and over again CJ - We stupidly put all our development eggs in one basket, tied up the city centre in planning blight for a decade, and now the construction boom is well and truly over, we badly risk ending up with absolutely nothing.

Even when it's happening right under your noses, you still refuse to see it.

The Church Street plan looks promising however, I reckon Preston's unlikely to see any 'amazing' architecture until after Tithebarn or at least, during its construction when bigger, better developers are attracted to the city than the ones we are currently seeing.

Preston doesnt start and end with the area around Tithebarn. There are plenty of spaces around the city centre that could have been developed and just just seems like none of them bar afew have actually been built on.

I'm aware of that but quality developers are unlikely think of it as a true city until Tithebarn actually happens. Sad but true, especially since it will be a more expensive by then!

Preston doesnt start and end with the area around Tithebarn. There are plenty of spaces around the city centre that could have been developed and just just seems like none of them bar afew have actually been built on.

quality developers are unlikely think of it as a true city until Tithebarn actually happens. Sad but true, especially since it will be a more expensive by then!

None of the serious money was willing to invest in Preston during the last 10 years when the Tithebarn scheme was shrouding everything about Preston in uncertainty.

I feel that this is unlikely to change now we have rising inflation and global uncertainty - all trust and confidence has disappeared - the banks don't even trust each other!

Tithebarn also seemed to have a de facto 'veto' over everything else that happened in Preston - 'Grosvenor are in favour of it' seemed to be the magic words that every development proposal needed, regardless of whether it was anywhere near the Tithebarn area. (The phrase even appears a few times in this very thread!)

They're still arguing over who will pay for the new bus station. I think the developers have a real cheek expecting this to be paid for out of public money, when if it weren't for them, we would have a much bigger, better situated bus station for years to come.

"Grosvenor are in favour of it" has happened once as far as i am aware and thats to do with the trams concept. Something which it is important for them to support as chances are if we ever get one it will run through Tithebarn so space has to be left for it.

The new bus station is not moving miles out if the city. The current bus station is over sized. 80 bays for a Preston is far to much and id like to know how you justify Preston needing this capacity when Liverpool has around 30 split between 2 terminals.

You haven't answered my question CJ, about why should the local Council Tax Payer have to pay anything toward the new bus station, when we've already got a perfectly good one?

If the developer wants to demolish the existing one, it should be up to them to deliver an equivalent replacement - asking us to pay is sheer cheek.

Its the council who want the bus station to be demolished. That was decided before Grosvenor even came into the equation.

You haven't answered my question CJ

Much like how you constantly ignore comments on how our bus station is too big compared to much larger, real cities.

when we've already got a perfectly good one?

Really, where?

Riversider, the new bus station will be a hundred metres away from where the bus station is now, if that. Saying that the one we currently have is better situated is bloody stupid.
As for whether the council should pay for it, well you could look at that one of two ways. You could argue that they should pay for some of it because its a necessary part of Preston's public Transport network and it was the council who wanted it demolished in the first place. You could also argue that Grosvenor LendLease should pay for it because its part of Tithebarn, and they're quite willing to pay for that. I would say that the council should probably pay some money towards it, but by no means all of the money for it.

Please, though, stop ignoring perfectly reasonable points about the bus station being too big. It is. Paris, London, Berlin, Munich, Frankfurt, Liverpool, Manchester, Madrid, none of them need one as big as Preston's, despite their populations being far, far higher.

Paris, London, Berlin, Munich, Frankfurt, Liverpool, Manchester, Madrid, none of them need one as big as Preston's, despite their populations being far, far higher. so we get rid of the one thing that puts Preston on the map? Brilliant...

So put Preston on the map for being somewhere so stupid that it built a giant bus station that it doesnt need?

Plus your avoiding the question about capacity. Why do you feel that Preston needs an 80 bay bus station?

Morning Riversider I was told you were spreading joy and optimism here at SSC so I thought I'd come and join in the fun.:)

Earlier in the thread Riversider said that we have a perfectly good bus station and why should we spend money on a new one. A couple of comments - firstly it needs a lot spending on the structure. The deck waterproofong systems on the car park need replacing and secondly the concrete itself is in need of contant repair. It's a massive structure to maintain, clean and repair and it cost a fortune. Secondly the structure does not meet current standards when it comes to energy efficiency, disabled access and security never mind the smells.

I really can't believe anyone is defending it. Sorry I can.....Riversider.

I was told you were spreading joy and optimism here at SSC I'm a joyful optimistic person, and the guys here were getting bored without me.

London, and other cities have huge coach stations. Our bus station is really a combined bus and coach station offering local, regional and national bus and coach connections, so it cannot be compared with other single-use bus stations.

As to the size of the bus station - it's clear every city needs to massively expand its public transport capacity if we're to deal with the challenges of climate change and traffic gridlock. This is no time to be reducing that capacity, and it's certainly no time to make local people pay for the privilege of having that capacity reduced.

Issues of surface level access, disabled access, energy efficiency etc could have been addressed at a fraction of the cost of building a new smaller bus station, if our planners had ever taken this option seriously, however the real issue at stake was all that juicy town centre land, and the potential profits it could unleash, public transport never got a look in in comparison.

London, and other cities have huge coach stations.

And we compare to London and other large cities how? Do coaches not go to Liverpool? Or Manchester? Chorlton Street Coach Station is small, only a few bays. The coach traffic in Preston is accomodated in what, two bays at most?

Our bus station is really a combined bus and coach station offering local, regional and national bus and coach connections, so it cannot be compared with other single-use bus stations.

And all the samller bus stations quoted in previous posts host the services identified above. Doesn't change the fact that half the bays at preston go unused for large parts of the day.

As to the size of the bus station - it's clear every city needs to massively expand its public transport capacity if we're to deal with the challenges of climate change and traffic gridlock. This is no time to be reducing that capacity, and it's certainly no time to make local people pay for the privilege of having that capacity reduced.

So, the Preston Orbital goes every ten minutes, Penwortham is served at similar frequencies as is Leyland, just to name a few. How should capacity be increased in these routes? More to the point, why?

Issues of surface level access, disabled access, energy efficiency etc could have been addressed at a fraction of the cost of building a new smaller bus station,

Oh pray, do tell. How would all that have been done? Please provide full current market costings in your answer to back up the "fraction of the cost"

if our planners had ever taken this option seriously, however the real issue at stake was all that juicy town centre land, and the potential profits it could unleash, public transport never got a look in in comparison.

So, better use of city centre land is unacceptable? Dear me.....

There are plenty of parts of Preston, and plenty of villages around Preston that do not get an adequate bus service.

To make a serious impact on climate change and traffic gridlock, the number of routes on offer must vastly increase, as must the frequency of services to these areas.

The alternatives to demolishing the bus station were never seriously investigated.

Interesting that despite current catastrophe in the financial world, you still equate 'more profitable' with 'better'; exactly the kind of thinking that landed us in the mess we're in. Useful services to the community like post offices and bus stations cannot be expected to generate profits in the same way as conventional retail.

There are plenty of parts of Preston, and plenty of villages around Preston that do not get an adequate bus service.


http://www.prestonbus.co.uk/route000.htm
Shows all the Preston Bus Routes in the City. Looks Pretty well covered to me. Which parts of Preston exactly dont have bus coverage?

To make a serious impact on climate change and traffic gridlock, the number of routes on offer must vastly increase, as must the frequency of services to these areas.

No, the way to make a serious impact on the climate would be to get everyone on bikes. Also in the "current catastrophe in the financial world" as you put it, surely any routes that were profitable would be in place. I cant see how buses to villages (not many people) would ever turn a profit.

The alternatives to demolishing the bus station were never seriously investigated.

Where did you get this information?


Interesting that despite current catastrophe in the financial world, you still equate 'more profitable' with 'better'; exactly the kind of thinking that landed us in the mess we're in. Useful services to the community like post offices and bus stations cannot be expected to generate profits in the same way as conventional retail.

Are bus stations not rented or something by the companies who operate from the station? Also your forgetting that the running costs for the current bus station are far greater than that for the new one. Saving the council and tax payer money.

http://www.prestonbus.co.uk/route000.htm
Shows all the Preston Bus Routes in the City. Looks Pretty well covered to me.

And thats only te routes covered by Preston Bus. Add in the Stagecoach routes and It becomes clear that Preston is very well covered in terms of Bus services.

Preston is very well covered in terms of Bus services.

Tell that to pensioners living in outlying villages who's only method of getting to the shops is public transport, especially now their post offices have been closed down.

Answer the Question, how do you justify Preston having a 80 bay bus station when much larger cities do not.

Post office closures do not justify 80 bays wrth of bus station. Stop trying to mix two completely unrelated issues together. If you want to stop post office closures, dont campaign against demolishing the bus station.
I'm hardly happy that Post offices are closing either, but if we want to stop Post office closures, thats what we should be campaigning for. Preston is very vell covered by busses, with the majority of routes running at ten to fifteen minute intervals. That doesnt change the fact that:
A) Your argument is about a totally different issue
B) Preston doesnt need an 80 bay bus station when most of the bays have busses in them that are not in use
C) Outlying villages actually have quite good bus coverage. You only need to change busses once to get from somewhere like Chipping to Preston city centre. Added to this, outlying villages, given the fact that they are outlying will not neccesarily have quite as good services as villages which are slightly closer to larger towns.

Made a small find regarding the proposals for Guildhall Street however, the application has apparently been withdrawn recently:
http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/585/franceassetzcoukpropimadd1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/franceassetzcoukpropimadd1.jpg/1/w400.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img118/franceassetzcoukpropimadd1.jpg/1/)
http://www.daft.ie/searchinternational_sale.daft?search=1&s%5Bcountry_id%5D=8&s%5Bsearch_type%5D=international_sale&s%5Bfurn%5D=&s%5Brefreshmap%5D=1&offset=30&limit=10&id=617235

There are plenty of parts of Preston, and plenty of villages around Preston that do not get an adequate bus service.

To make a serious impact on climate change and traffic gridlock, the number of routes on offer must vastly increase, as must the frequency of services to these areas.

The alternatives to demolishing the bus station were never seriously investigated.

Interesting that despite current catastrophe in the financial world, you still equate 'more profitable' with 'better'; exactly the kind of thinking that landed us in the mess we're in. Useful services to the community like post offices and bus stations cannot be expected to generate profits in the same way as conventional retail.

So, no actual answer to any of my points again. :ohno: You still haven't proved that upgrading the bus station would be a fraction of the cost of building new. I await....

So, where does not get an adequate bus service?

Examples:

Longridge, roughly every half hour from 0530-ish to 2320 (and every hour until 5am on Thursdays/Fridays)

Hutton/Longton/Much Hoole/Tarleton, every 15 mins peak to every hour off-peak from around 6am to 2330 (and 0030 on Fridays)

Chipping, Hourly from around 0650 to 1820, with up to three additional services up to midnight Thurs-Sat

Freckleton, from half hourly to hourly subject to time of day from 0530 to 2145, with additional services to midnight on Fridays.

This will be an unfamiliar thing to you Riversider, but I am trying to back up my arguments with evidence, something you seem to have a problem with.

I have also tried to focus on real, separate villiages, if you included places like Bamber Bridge, Leyland, Lostock Hall etc, these would all have regular services for significant chunks of the day. So who should pay for additional services if they are really needed?

Riversider even if all 80 bays of the bus station were used by 80 different services and were all allocated a bay each, that would STILL be uneconomical because the buses dont need a dedicated exclusive spot for a specific service! I think i've tried explaining this one before, but i'll break it down for you again... imagine a bus stop. many bus services share the same bus stops on fishergate. now, imagine a bus stop exclusively for each bus service. and think about how many buses pass through fishergate ...and oh no ...fishergate is swamped with bus stops it doesnt need, and all because riversider cant grasp that buses do not mind sharing a bus bay. go and ask a bus how it feels about this if u dont believe me, or even just casually stand behind one - perhaps that might bring home to you that the present bus station is not only uneconomical, but that it is also a danger to the people using it, and we should therefore waste no time in closing the deathtrap you're so proud of.

Hit the nail on the head methinks :)

Also i would advise Riversider to take a look at the Liverpool One thread on the Liverpool forum just to see how proud they are of what has happened in their city. Also all the praise they give to Grosvenor. The company that for some reason you despise.

It's your thinking that is limited not mine, The bus station does not need to be restricted merely to bus services - where will the terminus be for the trams that are needed in Preston? Why not adapt part of the bus station for this? What about all the other potential modes of greener public transport, including some that maybe haven't been invented yet? Where will they go? What about rickshaws etc? At the moment the only things holding our public transport is our imagination and the funding - have your way, and we will lose the capacity to host such innovative new services too.

The bus station isn't the only place all those services could go from or to. If there was a tram terminus near to the bus station, that would probably suffice, especially if the tram link went past the railway station. Rickshaws (not likely in Preston, but it is quite possible) would probably not follow specific lines, and surely they would operate more like zero-carbon taxis.
Any other new type of public transport not yet invented may not be compatiable with the existing bus station anyway. That is, the existing bus station may not be modifiable to suit it, in which case either a new central station/terminus for that mode of transport would have to be built, or the bus station would have to go. What if that new mode of public transport was replacing busses? Then we wouldnt have need of a bus station, added to the fact that the bus station would not be modifiable for that mode of transport. Then there would be no other option than to demolish it.

Riversider, the bus station will be demolished eventually no matter what happens. What goes up must come down. And it will.

It's your thinking that is limited not mine, The bus station does not need to be restricted merely to bus services - where will the terminus be for the trams that are needed in Preston?

My thinking is limited, that is rich! :lol:

Where will the terminus for trams be? Somewhere on the outskirts of the city I'd imagine as no sensible tram network would have a terminus in its centre. However, a tram stop would be on Church Street right outside the entrance to the new bus station. Easy. Next question. (Look at this Riversider, I actually answer questions placed here, unlike you)

Why not adapt part of the bus station for this?

As stated, it is not required.

What about all the other potential modes of greener public transport, including some that maybe haven't been invented yet?

Oh please tell me how you plan for something that hasn't been invented? Should we be accounting for teleporters then? Does the new bus station account for hover buses?? If not, WHY NOT??

What about rickshaws etc?

Since when do rickshaws need any form of dedicated facility? The very nature of them means that they work wherever and whenever required.

At the moment the only things holding our public transport is our imagination and the funding - have your way, and we will lose the capacity to host such innovative new services too.

As stated ad infinitum it isn't the number of bays that matters, it is the use. Ignored time and again by you. Also, the point about the Liverpool One thread has been made more than once and ignored by you also.

So anyway, the board still awaits your costings to prove that refurbing the existing bus station is cheaper than building new, plus your response to the examples of "poor" bus services to outlying villages. I feel we'll be waiting a while longer.....

Check out the preston.gov website for the planning documents for Tithebarn with plans/illustrations: http://www.preston.gov.uk/staging/General.asp?nc=U5SN&id=7190

It's your thinking that is limited not mine, The bus station does not need to be restricted merely to bus services - where will the terminus be for the trams that are needed in Preston? Why not adapt part of the bus station for this?
Even if trams were eventually running in Preston, having a terminus where the current bus station is would be pointless. Its still a shit location.

What about all the other potential modes of greener public transport, including some that maybe haven't been invented yet? Where will they go?
Very sensible. Lets blow a load of public money on building facilities for something that may not ever exist :crazy: You are effectively asking for a white elephant.

You've all proved that despite all your talk about vision and transformation, you are not capable of envisaging anything different from the status quo.

The centre of the city is the best place for a bus station, and a tram terminus, and virtually any transport nexus. It's also the most profitable place to site a shopping centre, hence the conflict.

If we are going to get people out of cars and onto public transport, then it is going to have to have a much higher priority and prestige - including higher priority and prestige buildings.

There's no doubt that outlying villages are poorly served by public transport. Talk to the residents who have to rely on it and they will tell you about their daily experience.

As for Liverpool 1, it was discussed last night on Newsnight Review, you can imagine the slating it received from the assembled cultural representatives of Liverpool, Holly Johnson was particularly acerbic.

You've all proved that despite all your talk about vision and transformation, you are not capable of envisaging anything different from the status quo.

You are the one lacking vision. You cannot see what can be achieved. Your are just blinded by the fact that Tithebarn will be created for Preston by a rich backer.


The centre of the city is the best place for a bus station, and a tram terminus, and virtually any transport nexus. It's also the most profitable place to site a shopping centre, hence the conflict.

The new bus station is in the City Centre. Also trams dont have termini, they have stops.

If we are going to get people out of cars and onto public transport, then it is going to have to have a much higher priority and prestige - including higher priority and prestige buildings.
.

Again name where these new services will go? You call the Bus Station a prestige building? Its a piss smelling dump.

There's no doubt that outlying villages are poorly served by public transport. Talk to the residents who have to rely on it and they will tell you about their daily experience..

Which villages and how would you fund these new services?


As for Liverpool 1, it was discussed last night on Newsnight Review, you can imagine the slating it received from the assembled cultural representatives of Liverpool, Holly Johnson was particularly acerbic.

What did they say about Liverpool. Was this coming from the London types who still see the city as the lost cause it was in the 80's? Liverpool one has done wonders for the city.

It has made the city a retail destination.

Revived a dead part of the city.

Reconnected the city.

Provided hundreds of jobs for people across various skill levels.

Provided leisure facilities in the city centre.

Expanded the Blue Coat gallery, the cultural offering of L1.

Most important of all it has given a new confidence around Liverpool giving it the ability to attract further investment. Something it would never have nbeen able to do without L1.

^^
Agreed. The new bus station will only be about 100m or so from where the current bus station is. You only need to look at the plans for Tithebarn to realise that. The trip from the bus station to the city centre will be lengthened by only 2-5 minutes, depending on how fast you walk. With the new department stores, shopping areas and public facilities around Tithebarn, however, it is possible that you might not actually need to go into the existing City Centre to do what you want to do. And as I've said, the journey won't be much longer, even for elderly or less able people. In fact, it might well be easier due to the lack of dark subway tunnels for them to negotiate.

Edit: by the way, I was wrong about having to change busses once to get from Chipping to Preston City Centre, you do not have to change busses at all. Added to that, the Bowland Bus service operates between many of the outlying villages in the forest of Bowland and the Ribble Valley and the larger towns such as Clitheroe and Longridge (from where the users of the Bowland Busses can change to main line busses to get to Preston City Centre).

Just to bring discussion away from Riversider's nonsense for a moment, I was driving down Corporation Street today and noticed that the run down warehouse which was earmarked to be replaced with student flats has been shrouded with scaffolding and sheeting. It looks like its gonna be demolished. Now, for those who don't remember this proposal, its basically a 4/5-storey building for student accomodation. Pretty basic but still a lot better than the run down warehouse which currently occupies the site. However, we all thought this had gone dead after 3 years of no news, so seeing what will happen here will be interesting:

I did have a render on the projects list, but I took it off cos I thought the scheme had gone dead.

i suppose the only thing we're likely to see for a while is student accommodation..

So long as PCC dont approve any old shit, a la the new Moor Lane halls ill be happy :)

Will this keep the conversation away from Riversider some more?!

http://www.lep.co.uk/businessnews/750000-revamp-for-Preston-landmark.4563247.jp

£750,000 revamp for Preston landmark

A landmark building in Preston city centre is to have a £750,000 facelift later this year.

Property giant Warner Estate Holdings, the owners of the Fishergate Shopping Centre in the city, has confirmed it would refurbish seven shops in the Victoria and Albert Buildings at the junction of Fishergate and Corporation Street.

This will include modernising the inside of the parade of shops and installing new shop fronts in a bid to attract a "varied retail offer."

Warner asset manager Alison Barnsdale said it was keen to attract local independent traders and start-up businesses to take units in the historic premises.

Click here for more: http://www.lep.co.uk/businessnews/750000-revamp-for-Preston-landmark.4563247.jp

Warners bought the V&A at just the wrong time, eh? £1.25m is too much for anybody except them because the buildings are sitting over a tunnel / bridge, so you can't do much with them - someone else owns the land below. By unifying ownership the units are of more value to Warners than any one else. Indeed, only Warners can afford to invest in these properties because:

The footprints of the shops are tiny, meaning only small indie traders want them, and they rarely can afford anything more than minimal rents,
The offices are equally tiny with a long corridor access at the back. What makes these offices attractive now is that Warners should be able to include contract parking spaces directly below these them at the tunnel entrance.
Investing in a good looking neighbour to the Fishergate Cente is in Warner's interests.
Considerately tidied up, these relatively characterful buildings make a decent enough Gateway to Preston's Central Retail Area when leaving the station, and I hope Warner's are mindful of that. Buying up and doing something worthwhile to the V&A is in Warner's interests, but I don't think the motivation is greed. It is as much a security in their existing Fishergate Centre investment. And so, like I say, only they can afford to invest in the retention of this building.

Without any fanfare, I've noted some hard landscaping going on for the last few months at the corner of Avenham Lane & Avenham Rd, just opposite my local convenience store. Over the last 12 months, the public realm of the length of Avenham Rd has been completely re finished in high quality materials (natural stone etc). I have assumed this to be paid for out of some Section 106 Agreement when the Gold Thread Works redevelopment was given Planning Permission, and also that the bit at the top was just part of this.
Well today I've noticed a large granite bobbin an a block replete with s/s plaques, a large s/s needle and tree surrounded by a decorated iron sapling fence. I find it a very pleasant "incident on the street", and if anyone's walking in that part of town, it is worth the trip up from Cross Street to have a little gander. Well done to PCC, NWDA, AvenQuest and the community development team who put it together.

Without any fanfare Well done to PCC, NWDA, AvenQuest and the community development team who put it together.
Good quality work like this that engages the community and enhances the local area needs to be celebrated.

Warners development sounds useful too - this end of town will certainly need to fight hard given the challenges to the rest of the city posed by the Tithebarn scheme and the recession.

some good stuff for my neighbouring town ... would like to see a tram but with Leeds and Liverpool unable to get one i doubt it would happen. The city needs to focus on rejuvinating its 60s image as you past weatherspoons and a rejuv on the train station would be nice

in which direction are you passing wethers to get that 60's vibe? lol.. cos you're making it sound like its just one side of town that is shoddy! :| :P

http://www.lep.co.uk/news/How-Preston-will-look-in.4575163.jp

Thought i would post this on here. Preston in 2014. Most of the slides are what we have seen before. But check out slides 21 and 39. Look at the building across from the Unicentre. It looks taller!!! Might just be creative imaging however heres hoping that the density lost by Guild House will be replaced by this. This could be the second landmark for the project as it states in the breif thing posted by Preston Guy. Its certainly hopeful :)

These are the images from the planning documents I posted on here on Friday. I found them all encouraging and look forward to seeing the more detailed plans. I was also glad to see that Lowthian House IS in the Tithebarn Regeneration Area and it's Ringway frontage is apparently to be tackled. Also, the huge car park that would have faced the Rock FM building has been sorted out (halved and the rest of it moved elsewhere) and a new office/hotel added on the site which will improve the look of the area approaching from that end of town. Just give it a few months for Liverpool One to calm down now it's officially opened and then all eyes should be on Preston!! At last!!

Tell you what my friends... I'm a little concerned by one or two of the latest images of Tithebarn that have been released - disappointed in fact, that the main entrance to the new bus station is so dull looking and boring! I seem to remember many moons ago back in 2002, when the first preview images of the project were released, we were given the impression that we would have something of a grand entrance to our new bus terminal ...perhaps a pill to sweeten the bitterness of those cry babies that still believe the current bus station is Preston's greatest asset. After £700 million pounds worth of investment though, and even though it will be smaller, I had hoped the new bus station would be given it's own new "unique" character, and not be just any old bus station, like those of Lancaster or Chorley (no offence intended to either of those places!) In short, despite it's smaller size, the new terminal could still be a masterpiece - Lets just hope over the coming year or so we will see more elaborate imagery of it's design!

I think the idea with the new bus station is integration. There will be two listed buildings on the Church Street frontage as well as new-builds. I think it will be quite impressive.

Yet ANOTHER planning application, this time for an 8-13 storey building:
Erection of mixed use development comprising offices (Class B1, approx. 21,631 sqm), hotel containing approximately 150 bedrooms with conference facilities and basement car park (approx. 105 spaces)

You've all proved that despite all your talk about vision and transformation, you are not capable of envisaging anything different from the status quo.

Maybe we just live in the real world. Perhaps, on reflection, I'd prefer to lack vision rather than being the patronising c*nt you are. :bash:

The centre of the city is the best place for a bus station, and a tram terminus, and virtually any transport nexus. It's also the most profitable place to site a shopping centre, hence the conflict.

Reading the rubbish you spew out, anyone would think that the new bus station is being sited in Birmingham. Hey, guess what, it IS in the city centre!!!!!!! AND it has level access to the shopping core!!

And, as stated previously (and unsurprisingly ignored by you due to it making you look ignorant) no sensible tram network would have a tram terminus in the centre of any city. As I said, and equally ignored, the tram bus integration is completely achievable with no change to the proposed designs.

If we are going to get people out of cars and onto public transport, then it is going to have to have a much higher priority and prestige - including higher priority and prestige buildings.

"Hey honey, shall we catch the bus into town?" "No, it has no notable architecture or landmark buildings conveying an image of prestige. Let's drive and park in the Market Car Park instead"

There's no doubt that outlying villages are poorly served by public transport. Talk to the residents who have to rely on it and they will tell you about their daily experience.

No comment on the examples I gave, surprise. Well, let me be cruel. If you want to live somewhere with good bus service, live there.

As for Liverpool 1, it was discussed last night on Newsnight Review, you can imagine the slating it received from the assembled cultural representatives of Liverpool, Holly Johnson was particularly acerbic.

Ironic comment for you. Personally, the only opinions I care about are those of the residents and users of Liverpool 1. Plenty of this is apparant on the relevant forum here and, hey guess what, no comment from you on it....

that new 'vision' is not tall enough to be noticeable really, it'd be like Crystal House/Cubic all over again, short stubby block.. such a pity, we need height!!

that new 'vision' is not tall enough to be noticeable really, it'd be like Crystal House/Cubic all over again, short stubby block.. such a pity, we need height!!

i agree totally, disappointed with the lack of any buildings of any real height. Something only twenty stories would make huge impression.

"Hey honey, shall we catch the bus into town?" "No, it has no notable architecture or landmark buildings conveying an image of prestige. Let's drive and park in the Market Car Park instead"

This quote neatly encapsulates all the problems we have now.

Except that they park at the Fishergate Centre. It blows my mind: every Saturday afternoon I see 20+ cars queueing for, what, half an hour(?) to get in that car park to obviously shop elsewhere in town.
Frankly, if the Fishergate Centre car park was turned back into railway sidings, like it was when I was a lad, a great deal of road traffic would not exist - cos they'd have to use the bus to get into town!
It goes to show that at present, sitting in a queue looking at zip all, is more meaningful than the view from the Park n Ride. We have to change the visual meaning of Preston too, to make it a really worth while place to come to.

that new 'vision' is not tall enough to be noticeable really, it'd be like Crystal House/Cubic all over again, short stubby block.. such a pity, we need height!!


Absolutely. 20 storeys plus is essential if we're going to make a statement to our skyline. When they opened that Tithebarn information centre I expressed to them my disappointment at the demolition of our tallest building (albeit an ugly one, the Guild Centre) for the very reason that it IS tall, and I firmly believe a modern city should reach skywards. Having asked why it could not just be re-clad and modernised, and given the reason that the building is not structurally sound, I was then told that the street model along with the imagery surrounding me were merely outline plans, and that it may be that a new tall office building may go up somewhere on the site. Probably empty talk, but just thought I'd share that with u while we're on the subject of our hope of building upwards!

Have we heard any more about the Golden Tulip site by the way?? I've been keeping an eye out for the diggers to move on site but no joy so far...

I just wish they'd leave the Staples site alone. Even though it looks shite, Ring Way is too much of a problem and should be dealt with before developing that site. Yes, it may take 10 years but I'd rather wait than make another mistake. That entire area around Corporation Street/Ring Way/Friargate could have it's own Tithebarn style makeover, they should well alone for now.

I just hate the whole idea of the Tithebarn, lol.. the more I see it the more I hope it never happens, although I understand that it probably has to if Preston has any hope of aspiring to have that city vibe it strives for... It just all seems so generic, I know most of it still likely is, but I think overall it will look generic, those renders could be for anywhere.. I really think that Preston should be emphasising its Lancashire heritage in its new builds..

How? Well that'd be the hard part..But I think focusing on the high street for a start off, rebuild shops whilst retaining the facades that are worthy or retention.. they could create a really interesting streetscape by doing that, find the floorspaces they need for the larger retail chains and get rid of the good few nasties that are dotted up and down this road. Get rid of all that street furniture (which pisses me off so much at the mo, cos waitin for a bus by the train station is really irritating with all the signs and visual noise.. lol.

In an ideal world, they'd remove Cubic.. not that they'd now its been redone, but that should have gone, past few weeks in our conservation lectures we've had slideshows showing the Harris with the Old town hall next door, the more I see it the more it upsets me that Preston lost it! That square must have been so beautiful before it was gutted..

Lowthian has now done a 'cubic', I kind of liked that (at a push) but now they've added that utterly random cladding, I hate it.. and it only adds to the fact thats its an ugly
60's block. I just don't see what the logic of that was..One good thing however, seems to be the work being done on the multi-storey car park next door.. if they clad that as on the renders, it'd do a world of good.

I just don't get it with Preston, it has.. on the quiet, some mighty fine buildings.. yet most seem ignored by past developing around them. The trouble would be is to bring them all together, probably an impossible feat due to roads and such. But for some, a little rethinking could do wonders.

I must admit, the sketches don't have me singing and dancing about Tithebarn, but to be honest, sketches rarely do any project justice. They are no substitute for renders. The general concepts they have at work here look good.

As for the Ringway building... hmmm... here we go again.

Oh yes! Nearly forgot to mention... the buildings on Corporation Street are DEFINITELY being demolished! Watch this space ;)

Well said ferge. Lots of people are coming to exactly your conclusions.

I completely disagree. Though there is something of a genericness to the sketches, the only building that will be demolished to make way for it that isnt generic is the bus station. The guild centre is only anything special because its tall, and the design is very bland. If Preston was a city of highrises it wouldnt stand out at all.
St Johns shopping centre is only notable for being shit, and the same with the indoor market.
Tithebarn might not have stunning architecture, but that isn't neccesarily what its about. Its about creating jobs, shops, bars, but its also about bringing our city into the age we now live in. The future isn't what it used to be any more. Now we have to write over the mistakes of the past and start afresh, and if this doesnt happen, how long are we to live with the decayed, crumbling disgrace of a city centre which we now have the chance to rebuild. If you wish to live in the past, that is your choice, however I know where I chose to live, the 21st century.

Tithebarn might not have stunning architecture, but that isn't neccesarily what its about. Its about creating jobs, shops, bars, but its also about bringing our city into the age we now live in.

Except to a certain extent, it is important and it should be what its about.. If Preston is to attract visitors, out of town shoppers etc.. then it HAS to deliver on architecture and well-designed new areas..

When you have such a modestly sized city so close to Manchester & Liverpool you need something that little bit more distinct. Having the shops is simply not enough. Who'd rather go Liverpool 1 than a day shopping in Preston. Thats not to say Preston should aim for its own Liverpool 1, as it hasn't the need for it.. but it needs something that relates to the place.

Now we have to write over the mistakes of the past and start afresh, and if this doesnt happen, how long are we to live with the decayed, crumbling disgrace of a city centre which we now have the chance to rebuild. If you wish to live in the past, that is your choice, however I know where I chose to live, the 21st century

Had it ever occured that it was rewriting the past that caused the same problems you're experiencing with your perception of Preston today? Removing all traces of it? A city should NOT remove its past but work with it. Its this mass building that causes loss of identity and generic urban environments, and the more you want a place to look modern, the shorter its shelf life will be, because it will constantly need updating, upgrading and rebuilding.

and yes, the guild centre isn't iconic, it isn't recognisable and it wouldn't be missed amongst a load of buildings of a similiar mass, but then again, this is Preston which doesn't and may not for many decades have the need for an abundance of 60m tall buildings and so it is more important to retain them for the present and whether people find it ugly or not, you can't deny that on approaching the city from any angle, it is this building that you see first.

THe sketches dont look great but there only purpose is to illustrate density. Which is one thing i do like about Tithebarn is that it adds a true city density to the area which at current is just masses of concrete. With regards to the demolition of Guild House in some sketches their appears to be a large tower (M&S perhaps) that appears to be taller than the Unicentre, which would make it roughly the same height as Guild House.

As for Tithebarn being genertic you could argue that the whole city is generic, as are most places in the country. Similar looking buildings everywhere. Just because they are old people seem to romantacise them as be being less generic than new builds. The only building in Preston that could be called unique is the Bus Station. Every other building has versions of it (some better some worse) in every town and city across the country.

@ferge. Why will making it look modern give it a shorter shelf life?

I meant more in terms of being modern, keeping with trends.. the 50's were modern at their time, and every decade since.. and masterplans like the tithebarn will likely latch to current fads that will date as quickly as they go up..

The only alternative is keep what he have which is already dated. The nature of cities is that they are never finished. I do believe that in time parts of Tithebarn will be demolished when certain parts of it become unfashionable as you say. Just depends which parts they are and how they intergrate with whats there. But thats a question for the future. I do believe however that the streets within Tithebarn will make this much easier to change opposed to say alter a fully fledged shopping centre.

Modern masterplans dont automatically mean bad. You just have to take alook at Liverpool to see what can be achieved.

They can always be given makeovers in the future, especially since Tithebarn will be 'owned' by the developers, they won't want a dated look to their development.

Using Liverpool 1 as an example, I don't think that the many of the buildings in this scheme will age too quickly. And as preston_guy said, they can always be updated in a couple of decades or so. However, glass and steel have always proved to be a very timeless way of construction.
Express Networks Building, Manchester - built 1932
http://www.manchesteronline.co.uk/ewm/001ewm/lg/DSCN2474.jpg

Ive seen that building. Didnt realise it was so old. Certainly doesnt look like it. I assumed it was from the 80's

yea preston needs this and although many will be sad to see the old bus station go i will not, its to big, to big and to smelly bab bye

Ive seen that building. Didnt realise it was so old. Certainly doesnt look like it. I assumed it was from the 80's

Goes to show that quality design is timeless and fashionproof. Quality design tends to be noticed by all at least 20 years after completion.

Winckley Square re vamp
The re vamp of Winkley square moved a step closer today when the Councils City centre committee agreed to go ahead with detailed plans and the submission of the planning application.

The application is likely to be submitted in March next year with many opportunities for the public to be consulted.

This is interesting.

The public consultation meeting called by Cllr Patel at the Town Hall on 31 July voted at least 80/20% against the proposed scheme. I know, as I was one of the (min) 80%. Later complaints by attendees of the meeting that the official minutes (published 6 weeks after the meeting!) did not represent a true a fair reflection of the meeting seem have to be ignored by the officers. No further meeting I know of is proposed at which those minutes can be questioned.

Riversider knows that I passionately disagree with him (and others) on the benefits of the Riverworks proposals, but the above, if all true, does remind me that such voices must always be considered.

Watch this space.

http://www.lep.co.uk/businessnews/Preston-supermarket-to-shut.4592153.jp

The building has been sold to an unnamed developer.

I'm sure the debate on community need-versus-developers' need will be had on this one.

Also, to continue the Tithebarn debate, this is how they do it in the North....

http://www.lep.co.uk/businessnews/150m-regeneration-given-the-go.4591927.jp

It just all seems so generic, I know most of it still likely is, but I think overall it will look generic, those renders could be for anywhere.. I really think that Preston should be emphasising its Lancashire heritage in its new builds..

Generic compared to what? How is Preston not generic currently? Answer: well, sorry, but it isn't. Look at the St Georges Centre. Inside, you could be anywhere, Blackburn, Southampton or any other place that has a "The Mall" centre. What stands The Fishergate Centre out from the rest of the country? Nothing. What stands Fishergate out from the rest of the country? Nothing. You find the same mixes of architecture, the same shop fronts and more all over the country! Hell, let's even take the Harris Museum and Library. A fantastic building, but unique? Not really, no!

Let's get out heads out of our backsides. Preston is Preston, we are not and never will be London, Manchester or Liverpool.

However, Tithebarn will do nothing but improve the city. So, it'll have bits that people will not like, it may have bits that won't work. But it cannot possibly in any way be worse than the current "offer" on that location.

We went to Liverpool last weekend (by train from Leyland - very eco-friendly-ish) and Liverpool 1 has done nothing but improve the city centre. OK, there are bits that are not great, One Park West for example, or the toilets that cost 20p. But it is integrated into the existing city (as Tithebarn will) and has direct access to public transport (buses only - as TB will). The build quality looks to be very good, the materials look to be good quality.

If TB does suddenly fail or cease to appear, anyone who celebrates the fact really cannot be said to have any interest in Preston at all. If TB doesn't happen, don't expect any alternatives to come along - they won't! Preston will rot. Shame that only then, Riversider et al, the so-called "people's voice" will be happy.

Er, so you're saying fight fire with fire are you?

Yes.. the shopping centres are generic, so by throwing in bigger retail brands and relocating high store branches we'll suddenly get an air of distinctiveness? I think not..

Yes, you could take almost any building out of its environment and say 'could find that anywhere' thats not what cities are about, they are about how they co-habit. By building a big knock off debenhams or JL aint gonna make it 'stand out' as you put it..

..and frankly, until we see a render that is 'the bollocks' I am not going to think anything other than the Tithebarn being nothing of merit.

and who ever said about being like London?! Geeeze..