...and I couldn't agree more with these people who don't want their town to become like every other North American city. Guelph doesn't need bigbox stores to be stylish or urban. It already is!

Here's a CD Wal-Mart isn't likely to carry
By JOHN ALLEMANG
Saturday, July 16, 2005


For 10 years, Wal-Mart has been campaigning to build a big-box store on the northern edges of Guelph, near two cemeteries and a Jesuit retreat centre, and for just as long the city's sizable collection of rebels from consumer culture have been fighting back.

Although the Ontario Municipal Board approved the project (which goes against the city's official plan), the province's Divisional Court has granted a rare leave to appeal the decision. To raise funds for the appeal, scheduled for Aug. 8 and 9, Guelph musicians have banded together in their own act-locally, We Are the World style to create a CD with the pointed title of Not There.

The title track, written specifically for the CD by musician-producer Sam Turton, is a folk-blues number that turns the rhythms of the South against the Arkansas-based corporation with such lines as, "The people stood up and the city said no/But the Walton boys just wouldn't let go," and, "World is round, box is square/Stick it in the south, we don't care" -- a reference to the Wal-Mart opponents' willingness to see the store built at Guelph's more commercial south edge, far from the Jesuit quiet.

The CD, which features such musicians as James Gordon, Jesse Stewart and Dave Teichroeb, costs $20 and is available at Music in Orbit, The Bookshelf and Thomas Entertainment in Guelph, or through http://www.not-there.ca, the campaign website of Residents for Sustainable Development.

Wow, I wish we could have done something like that here in Weston before it was too late.

Yeah GO GUELPH! Hope Stratford can win its battle with Wal-Mart/Big Box crap as well! :)

What is the Wal-Mart Nay-sayers nay this time? That Wal-Mart is a large american company (ooh scary)? That it is car dependent? That it has low prices that allow people to buy things they otherwise couldn't afford, with the only downside to them being a bleak shopping experience?

…Stick it in the south, we don't care" -- a reference to the Wal-Mart opponents' willingness to see the store built at Guelph's more commercial south edge, far from the Jesuit quiet
If I didn't know better I would think that was blatant Nimbyism

Well, if it doesn't go in Guelph, it'll go in K/W or Cambridge, and you can bet there will be Guelphers there shopping. They should put it to the vote like in LA.

Most Guelphers are happy to drive to nearby cities that have been uglified and use their bigbox stores.

And^^ about the lowprice american store all that... WalMart is a horrible company regardless of where they originated. They are mean to communities, and they uglify nice towns that are trying to use new urbanism. Guelph is a town of local businesses, including those with low prices for the not-so-wealthy.

Good on Guelph! :)

Wal-Mart is bad...endeavoring to out-price all competition out of business, and then raises them when all competition (and consumer alternatives) are gone...

But then Cambridge, Ancaster, etc. get the tax base and revenue from Wal-Mart. It's a trade-off, and I think it should be decided on a ballot vote.

Thousands of Guelph residents drive to Cambridge to shop at their big box stores every day, and despite the resistance of a vocal segment of the local population, and even though they might be loathe to admit it -- i bet that most Guelph residents would like a Wal-mart in their city. Same goes for Stratford.

Here are a few interesting threads about Guelph, Wal-Mart, and the some of its citizen's opinions regarding the city's unique identity from Guelph.com:
http://guelph.com/bulletinboard-thread.cfm?threadid=1717&itemid=5728&messages=21&smocid=1762

http://guelph.com/bulletinboard-thread.cfm?threadid=1849&itemid=5870&messages=6&smocid=1762

http://guelph.com/bulletinboard-thread.cfm?threadid=1678&itemid=5687&messages=13&smocid=1762

I get a kick out of how one person is convinced that Guelph's council is a bunch of rednecks because they won't allow the city to be overrun with big box stores -- i would think that that makes them the complete opposite of rednecks!

personally, having lived in guelph for two years with two more to go i would like to see a wal-mart. it's easy shopping, affordable, and one-stop. I never really liked small stores as I never find what I'm looking for and they're usually more expensive.

For example, I always buy my CD's from Future Shop (big box) rather than CD plus b/c i'll end up saving $5 which I could use for something else.

I'm young so I like commercialization, and haven't come around to appreciate the small things in life yet. Guelph is a city for people who don't want to live in a farm town, but not get stuck in rush hour. You get a quite neighbourhood in return for less development.

Most Guelphers are happy to drive to nearby cities that have been uglified and use their bigbox stores[1].

And^^ about the lowprice american store all that... WalMart is a horrible company regardless of where they originated. They are mean to communities[2], and they uglify nice towns that are trying to use new urbanism[3]. Guelph is a town of local businesses, including those with low prices for the not-so-wealthy[4].

1: Wouldn't building one closer allow shoppers to drive less – and help the environment? If it were really close they could even walk.

2: If people in the community didn't want one, Wal-Mart wouldn't build one. If Wal-Mart thinks they can make money – and they have been overwhelmingly right on their assesments – it's because communities are shopping in the store.

3: They are ugly because they are cheap. How many pawn shops are architect designed and have LEED certification (Incidentally, the Vancouver Wal-Mart had these things) And as for "new urbanism," well, it's worth mentioning. Total tripe.

4: If Guelph businesses have low prices, they have nothing to fear; Wal-Mart will fail and disappear.

Although the Ontario Municipal Board approved the project (which goes against the city's official plan), the province's Divisional Court has granted a rare leave to appeal the decision.
This is very interesting. The only way the Divisional Courts would get involved is if there was an outstanding matter on law or jurisdiction.

The last stat that I read was for every job created at a WalMart, three local jobs are axed.
Canadian companies can't compete, we don't have the huge backing of a massive US population behind us that enable the WalMarts to keep their prices lower. Besides, WalMart sucks at investing anything in their city locations. I drive to the US and I see WalMart supporting this, WalMart supporting that, I take a look around Canada and I'm very hard pressed to find any WalMart support within their local communities. At least the Canadian Tires support Canada and the cities within.

I give up. With many people like some of you in here, I have lost hope in the future of our cities, which will all look the same and have no quirky little shops, no local business or excitement in searching for things and not just dropping in at an ugly warehouse building to buy the same pressurewasher your nextdoor neighbour has.

It's sad that even in South Africa we now have bigbox stores. Even beautiful Africa will be ruined!

The last stat that I read was for every job created at a WalMart, three local jobs are axed.
Canadian companies can't compete, we don't have the huge backing of a massive US population behind us that enable the WalMarts to keep their prices lower. Besides, WalMart sucks at investing anything in their city locations. I drive to the US and I see WalMart supporting this, WalMart supporting that, I take a look around Canada and I'm very hard pressed to find any WalMart support within their local communities. At least the Canadian Tires support Canada and the cities within.
/\ WalMart donates to many of the local charities, schools, organizations, leagues, etc. in the communities they are located in.

http://www.walmartcanada.ca/CA-About_WM-OurComm.html

Don't even start with the comparisons- I have NEVER heard of something hosted or supported by WalMart. And of course their website will say good things.

We wouldn't be arguing against them with a passion for no reason. I don't care if they are an American company- I just think they are a very sick and evil/demeaning company.

I give up. With many people like some of you in here, I have lost hope in the future of our cities, which will all look the same and have no quirky little shops, no local business or excitement in searching for things and not just dropping in at an ugly warehouse building to buy the same pressurewasher your nextdoor neighbour has.

It's sad that even in South Africa we now have bigbox stores. Even beautiful Africa will be ruined!
Slight overstatement don't you think? Last time I recall, the GTA is home to a number of Wal-Mart's and it still has thousands of smaller independant/boutique retail establishments.

It's true, my cousin worked for Wal-Mart HQ, and they indeed helped pay for her law school through some education grants.

Slight overstatement don't you think? Last time I recall, the GTA is home to a number of Wal-Mart's and it still has thousands of smaller independant/boutique retail establishments.


The GTA has much larger number of potential customers. Walmart will simply kill all the independent stores in Guelph and thus singlehandedly kill its downtown at the same time

The GTA has much larger number of potential customers. Walmart will simply kill all the independent stores in Guelph and thus singlehandedly kill its downtown at the same time
While I agree that there is some validity to your statement, you neglect to realize that the retail market is quite diverse and those who don't shop at independent stores are already shopping at places like Canadian Tire, Home Depot, Zellers, etc. Most smaller independent retailers already have an established 'core' clientele.

I give up. With many people like some of you in here, I have lost hope in the future of our cities, which will all look the same and have no quirky little shops, no local business or excitement in searching for things and not just dropping in at an ugly warehouse building to buy the same pressurewasher your nextdoor neighbour has.
I totally agree; we should go back to the days where everyone walked to local mom and pop businesses, because cars weren't invented. Back to a time when everything you bought was made by the person you were buying it from. Who cares that this sounds a lot feudal ages, where only the wealthiest could afford anything. Wal-Mart and other retailers are giving consumers a chance to buy things they could otherwise not afford. And what do you think consumers do with the money they have saved? Burn it?
Wal-Mart and other large scale retailers make profit by having minimum selection of any given product, ie. only xxl tubs of peanut butter. A market will still exist for high end goods and speciality products that Wal-Mart does not stock. And while we're on the subject of prohibition, I think alcohol should be illegal. Since I don't drink, no one should be allowed to.

It's sad that even in South Africa we now have bigbox stores. Even beautiful Africa will be ruined!
Yea Wal-Mart is way worse than Aids.

...We wouldn't be arguing against [Wal-Mart] with a passion for no reason. I don't care if they are an American company- I just think they are a very sick and evil/demeaning company.
Typically you would follow that with a reason, or it makes your claim seem half-assed; in this case, about ∏ of an ass.

The GTA has much larger number of potential customers. Walmart will simply kill all the independent stores in Guelph and thus singlehandedly kill its downtown at the same time
Yes everyone in Guelph shopping for antiques, going to the bank, getting a haircut, or stopping for coffee will rush from downtown – rush – to buy vinyl disney backpacks at Wal-Mart. The offices of Downtown will evanesce, and all the workers will become Wal-Mart greeters (or set up new offices in the Wal-Mart:professional services department)

The intersting thing about Wal-Mart is that it is opposed by a diverse array of different special interests that morph together: Non-competitive Local businesses, Union leaders, anti-americans(in Canada), anti-foreigners-in-general(in the US), and anti-globalization vandals. Wal-Mart is indicative of the new model for global retail and shipping – one that, via new technologies – will allow us to buy more for less and make life better for everyone.

Well said, though the AIDS comment was a bit much.

If I ever see a big WalMart banner at one of our local events, then I'd start to believe that they support the communities they are in. In all the years I have been involved in various events within the city, I have yet to see one single contrabution from WalMart. For such a huge company, they can't come close to what Canadian Tire, Zellers, Marks Work Warehouse, 3M, Molson or Labatts do when it comes to helping their events in and around the cities they are located in.
No matter what anyone says, I still believe the money we spend finds it's way down south and is used to help put on events or help much more in the USA. I've been to countless airshows, balloon festivals, concerts and other festivals in the USA and have seen huge support from WalMart. The same can't be said here in Canada.
I am on the organizing board for two of Ontario's largest festivals and if WalMart were to assist even one penny, then it would help out.
Sure their website says they assist with various organizations, but if I'm not mistaken, this has only started in the last while due to some flak directed their ways about the lack of support by the worlds largest retailer to Canadian events.

Again, for every job created at a WalMart, 3 local jobs are lost. Oh ya, they are just great for the poor or lower class.

If I ever see a big WalMart banner at one of our local events, then I'd start to believe that they support the communities they are in.

I've seen plenty of Wal-Mart banners at events in Mississauga. We're home to two Wal-Marts (maybe more in the North), including the world's biggest (Square One-> also the second biggest mall in Canada).

Maybe the reason you haven't seen any of their banners is because there is no Wal-Marts in your community and therefore no reason for them to give back. Wal-mart support my T-ball team for three years, donated to every school fair I can remember and donated $10,000 to my school's fundraiser againsit cancer. I think that they're helping my community.

Btw, I have to disagree with you one job at wal-mart stat destorys three jobs. I think that's over doing it. I know in my local community, our Wal-mart has hired many people form the surronding community. As well, every outlet in local malls seem to be filled with stores and even when one closes another store opens up right away. Therefore I think that Wal-mart does add plenty of jobs to the local area. As well, they're prices are competitive. I'd rather be able to buy more for less.

Maybe the reason you haven't seen any of their banners is because there is no Wal-Marts in your community and therefore no reason for them to give back.

London and I have yet to see a banner at RibFest, Balloon Festival, Airshow, Childreans Fest, Western Fair, Blue's Fest, Rock the Park, London Knights, London Majors, Home County, etc.

And just because a WalMart is not in a community IS NOT a reason to not give back to all of Canada.

London and I have yet to see a banner at RibFest, Balloon Festival, Airshow, Childreans Fest, Western Fair, Blue's Fest, Rock the Park, London Knights, London Majors, Home County, etc.

And just because a WalMart is not in a community IS NOT a reason to not give back to all of Canada.

there is at least 3 wal marts in london that i can think of, i believe a fourth was proposed

Wal-Mart Canada's HQ'd in Missy too! BTW, Square One is the third largest mall in Canada. I didn't know the Wal-Mart was the biggest though. What's the size?

Again, for every job created at a WalMart, 3 local jobs are lost. Oh ya, they are just great for the poor or lower class.
If you take the glib sarcasm out of your statement, it turns out you are perfectly right: "Wal-Mart is the greatest thing that ever happened to low-income Americans." – W. Michael Cox, Cheif Economist, Federal Reserve Bank of Dallas, 2003. It was mentioned on CBC radio today, referencing this "Steve Maich Macleans Article (http://www.macleans.ca/topstories/business/article.jsp?content=20050725_109503_109503) in particular. The article goes on to mention that local retail sales grow with the presence of a Wal-Mart. It also pointed out that even people who do not shop in one benefit, since Wal-Mart forces local retailers to lower their prices as well – by 10~15%.

…And just because a WalMart is not in a community IS NOT a reason to not give back to all of Canada.
Yes it is. How come Chicos Pizza, 796 Mount Pleasant Road, Toronto, ON. does not support Luminara, the Victoria Lantern festival.

London and I have yet to see a banner at RibFest, Balloon Festival, Airshow, Childreans Fest, Western Fair, Blue's Fest, Rock the Park, London Knights, London Majors, Home County, etc.

And just because a WalMart is not in a community IS NOT a reason to not give back to all of Canada.

So you propose then that every ma and pa store doesn't deserve to exist if each and every one doesn't give back to all of Canada.

Wal-Mart Canada's HQ'd in Missy too! BTW, Square One is the third largest mall in Canada. I didn't know the Wal-Mart was the biggest though. What's the size?

The Wal-Mart in Square is 220,000 square feet according to the Square One Website.

About the size, I'm not sure what you're thinking is the 3rd biggest mall but Square One got a new expansion about 5 years ago which pushed it to the number two spot. (according to their website). Actually, if you want to get overly technical (which I doubt you want to) West Edmonton changed classifications to "Entertainment Complex", therefore Square One is technically the largest "retail shopping centre" in Canada. I don't really understand the difference but meh, Mississauga needs everything it can get :D.

Source of info:
http://www.shopsquareone.com/03sh_sati.html

So you propose then that every ma and pa store doesn't deserve to exist if each and every one doesn't give back to all of Canada.

Does "Words in mouth" mean anything to you?

I hardly think a mom and pop shop that struggles year after year, the corner stone of our communities should be compared to a WalMart.

Since you brought up the mom and pop shops, lets discuss how many have closed down since the intro of WalMart type shops.

I can only assume that WalMarts are not all roses like many of you seem to think. If they are actually so good for the economy, add so many new jobs, then why are so many cities fighting to keep them out?

Just a question I have.

Yes it is. How come Chicos Pizza, 796 Mount Pleasant Road, Toronto, ON. does not support Luminara, the Victoria Lantern festival.

Great reply , it made me laugh....

Yea Wal-Mart is way worse than Aids.


HOW DARE YOU. I have no respect for your opinion if you would bring that in to this. You obviously know nothing about Africa- and how dare you say that... apparently AIDS hasn't affected anyone you have known. I am leaving this thread... thats just insulting.

What have YOU done for the poor Wonderwall? I do aid work for the poor and have been in situations you couldn't even imagine, while you were (apparently) shopping in your local WalMart. I refuse to be bashed on something completely contradictory to who I am and what I give to the world.

WalMart doesn't give a crap about the poor. Don't fool yourself.

I think you should look at the Macleans article WonderWall linked to which cites data from Ryerson University and CIBC before you start to argue about Ma and Pa stores.

Since you brought up the mom and pop shops, lets discuss how many have closed down since the intro of WalMart type shops.

Here's a couple paragraphs from that article which I think will disprove all of your arguements.


" In 2002, Ryerson University completed the first major study on the company's impact on nearby small retailers, and found the opening of a new outlet is generally an economic boon for the whole area. In metropolitan areas, a new Wal-Mart was generally followed by an increase of $56.8 million in local sales, and the opening of 12.9 new stores. In rural areas, the commercial boost was $74.1 million and 16.7 new stores on average. Meanwhile, economic growth in areas with Wal-Mart stores far outpaced growth in places without them. The final line of the study said it all: "It is difficult to make the case that a Wal-Mart store actually puts other retailers out of business."

That study confirmed what Wal-Mart had long claimed: that its stores are economic generators, not predators. And, it seems, even small-business owners are coming around to that view. A 2004 Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce survey of more than 1,800 small-business owners across Canada found that just 16 per cent of respondents said they had been hurt by competition from big-box retailers like Wal-Mart and Home Depot. Five per cent said the big boxes had actually helped them, while the vast majority claimed little or no impact."

To me this is quite compelling that Walmart does in fact help local economies and that it doesn't run smaller stores out of business. Also, for the 16% who claim that it hurt business, for all we know those could be the small shops in small towns who knowingly rip people off day by day and thanks to Walmart and other big box retailers, these store owners finally got what they had coming to them.

HOW DARE YOU. I have no respect for your opinion if you would bring that in to this. You obviously know nothing about Africa- and how dare you say that... apparently AIDS hasn't affected anyone you have known. I am leaving this thread... thats just insulting. How dare I? If I recall correctly, and I do (since I have actually read the thread) …It's sad that even in South Africa we now have bigbox stores. Even beautiful Africa will be ruined! It may just be that you have never learned the meaning of the word ruined, or that I missed your smug and inappropriate hyperbole, but I at least, think Africa, and the world in general, has bigger problems. Or were you just fishing for a chance to whip out the "HOW DARE YOU!" I guess the best solution is to pretend that there is no problem, right?
…What have YOU done for the poor Wonderwall? I do aid work for the poor and have been in situations you couldn't even imagine, while you were (apparently) shopping in your local WalMart. I refuse to be bashed on something completely contradictory to who I am and what I give to the world. It's really the philosopher's apple here isn't it; apples are red, therefore everything red is an apple. I do charity work, therefore [everything I do] is charity. And as for Wal-Mart: I won't go into one. Cos(t)co, Superstore – the shopping experience of a smaller store is worth a higher price to me, but I wouldn't confiscate that opportunity from others. Good work on your aid work, but don't find it demeans the charity of the act to tell other people about it and demand congratulations?
WalMart doesn't give a crap about the poor. Don't fool yourself. They don't have to give a crap to be beneficial. Nobody here claimed that Wal-Mart "gave a crap" - the argument was that they helped people with low income.

Does "Words in mouth" mean anything to you?

I hardly think a mom and pop shop that struggles year after year, the corner stone of our communities should be compared to a WalMart.

Since you brought up the mom and pop shops, lets discuss how many have closed down since the intro of WalMart type shops.

I can only assume that WalMarts are not all roses like many of you seem to think. If they are actually so good for the economy, add so many new jobs, then why are so many cities fighting to keep them out?

Just a question I have.
Many people seem to forget that ma and pa stores were affected years ago since the advent of the suburban shopping mall.

Wal-Mart is simply an easy target due to its overall size and presence in the retail market. There is also no doubt that the media hype it up and adds fuel to the fire.

Where are the people protesting against Canadian Tire, Home Depot, The Bay or Superstore/ Loblaws? Do you seriously think these didn't have an impact on the local hardware or grocery store?

Some good points by all.

It seems at the end of the day, I'll have my opinion (based on facts) and others will have their opinion (based on other facts) and we'll continue to be miles apart.

My point of view will not change. I've been involved in retail for some 10 years, in that time I've seen some changes to the way Canadian retail and the hardships they have faced as they try to compete against the green back. I have seen first hand the markup on products at various Canadian retailers, there is very little if any room to move to a low price point.

I still wonder why so many cities are fighting to keep WalMart out. It seems this is done much more then any other retailer and I would still like to get a reply as to why this takes place. If all the facts and figures presented are true, then cities would be chomping at the bit to get a WalMart.

Good day to all, I'm out of this thread as a few seem to be getting a little to personal and turning it into a bitch slap session. Too bad as well, as this would have been a great debate thread and I was enjoying it till some seemed to pull it down.

"They don't have to give a crap to be beneficial. Nobody here claimed that Wal-Mart "gave a crap" - the argument was that they helped people with low income."

Well, I appreciate caring companies. WalMart is a bully in my opinion. There is nothing to argue- we both took this too far. ME included, yes. I understand your points of view now, and I understand that you appreciate smaller stores, too, and bigger ones, both for what they are worth. I just dislike a few companies- WalMart is one of them.

My dad works at WalMart, AND he's on government assistance! LEGALLY!

They don't pay much... Ours was built on a rare protected marsh! (though to be fair,something was built there before it was built)

Not only does walmart help people with low income, it makes them! My dad couldn't fent a cheap apartment if he put 110% of his take home pay to it!

But then, he is a moron.

Well, if it doesn't go in Guelph, it'll go in K/W or Cambridge, and you can bet there will be Guelphers there shopping. They should put it to the vote like in LA.

No thanks. We've got enough bigbox stores for now.

Good for Guelph. I really hope Walmart will soon stop building those ugly boxes and have something more stylish like a lot of cities in Europe and Asia.