The only store I have heard of that is maybe coming is Muji, they are looking at opening there first Welsh store. The closest at the moment is Muji in Reading at the Oracle Centre.
Muji is a great store, so will be an asset.

What the NEF doesn't address is the reason for this move to 'clone towns'; consumer demand. Chain stores have come to dominate many towns in the UK simply because that is where consumers choose to do their shopping, whether it be because of price, or because of brand or simply the convenience of familiarity. Quite simply, the greengrocer, the tobacconist and the newsagent cannot compete with the superstore in convenience or value-for-money. It would be inefficient to restrict consumer choice to the more costly alternative, unless consumers express an interest in doing that. And not general vague notions of 'I like independent stores'... by putting their money where their mouth is.. as economists call "revealed preference".

The NEF is like the Adam Smith Institute of the left; one-sided, analytically crude, and in reality a lobby group rather than a 'think tank'. I'd much rather put my faith in the sovereign consumer / voter.

Yeah, you are right. Although I have some sympathy with the cause of preserving local distinctiveness, supermarkets and other big chains have undoubtedly contributed to reducing prices and raising the quality and the diversity of consumer choice. In many ways, the fact that Britain had 275,000 small grocers in 1950 and fewer than 80,000 in 2000 is a sign of progress.

In the course of my work (I'm a policy analyst) I have the misfortune of coming across various sustainable development lobbyists. They usually have a poor understanding of economics and an instinctive dislike of big companies, especially supermarkets. They have the best of intentions, but as the old saying goes, there are a lot of those paving the road to hell. And fundamentally, they can't or won't accept that while people may *say* they want local shops, they spend their money elsewhere.

The big players offer convenience, good prices and a range of products that small operators can't match. The minnows can compete by focusing on quality or niche markets, but this may suit small shops in picturesque tourist market towns better than their peers on the average High Street in South Wales.

I agree that people say one thing and effectively vote for another with their feet. That's certainly true. However the question I have in response to that is in the interests of sustainable development to what extent should we be catering for demand and to what extent should we be trying to manage it? Predict and provide approaches to road building have been shown to be an unsustainable, vicious circle; as capacity increases so do the number of cars untill capacity needs to be increased again. Similarly it has been recognised that huge out of town shopping centres like the Metro Centre in Gateshead are equally unsustainable and generate way too much car use as well as killing existing town centres. While this has been recognised and there are tougher controls on such developments now, the trend hasn't exactly been reversed.
Surely if we are to take sustainability seriously (especially environmental but also social) then shouldnt we be looking to reverse these trends? For the sake of environmental sustainability we should be encouraging local shops and discouraging people from using their cars to get to them.
Also, I'm no economist but from what I've read, taking too much of a laissez faire approach tends to only advantage those who can pay. Think of a brand new out of town tescos extra, this may benefit a lot of people with cars who can pop in there on their way to/from work or families who do a large shop once a week but at the same time such a huge store may force smaller local shops to close in the surrounding town and village centres. Not a problem for those who have cars but for those who cant afford a car or cant drive for whatever reason it greatly inconvences them as they may have been reliant on having only a 5 min walk or bus ride to the local shops for their shopping needs. Ok, the local shops may be slightly less convenient for the more mobile majority but that's certainly nowhere near as inconvenient as no local shops is for the less mobile minority. So what, they have problems parking in the old town centre, or even *Shock Horror!* they may even have to leave their cars at home and get on the ... bus! Oh no, normal people cant be seen dead on a bus, busses are for old and poor people.
This probably makes me sound authoritarian but it seems to me that catering for demand is not necessarily the best thing, people's desires are not necessarily their needs, perhaps we should be looking more towards sorting out needs not blindly letting the market cater for their desires. People are lazy bastards, of course if you build a supermarket those who have the means to use it will do so but that doesnt make it any more right to build that supermarket. I'm not against supermarkets per-say, in the right places they can be of enourmas benefit to everyone (including those without cars) but it seems that so many of them and other out of town shops are built with no thought apart from the ammount of profit they can generate (and maybe also how much tax revenue the council can get from them) that they are just placed anywhere and their impact on communities is not considered nearly enough.

Cambo Dai

I know that you think (from previous comments) that the there is no flat building bubble at present, and that inflation is ok, but I see you now think that clone shops are accounted for simply by consumer demand!

It is stating no more than the obvious that clone shops wouldn't survive unless people bought what was in them . But to suggest that that is all there is to this issue is naive

What has happened in retailing since the 50s is a larger and larger concentration of economic power in fewer and fewer hands. This is because mergers and acquisitions through the 50s 60s 70s and beyond were not only not adequately controlled by government but often encouraged.

The result is that there are a relatively small number of players on the high Street; most of the shops you see with different names are not independent businesses, merely brand names owned by the big players.

Those players are big and powerful . They can (to an extent that small businesses could never possibly do) dictate to and manipulate the market. The most obvious result of that ,for the purposes of this forum, is the unholy alliance between these powerful retailers and the equally small number of powerful property developers . Everywhere, a few property developers build the shopping malls required by a few retailers . The consequence is that you get identikit shopping centres .

It is hardly surprisingly that if that is all there is left to shop in people will shop there. However , as I say, to describe that as purely an exercise in consumer demand is to miss the point pretty fundamentally

I don't expect anything much from the referral of the supermarkets to the competition commission, but it may act as a reminder of some of these issues

A few points; I've visited Bordeaux on a number of occasions and that very long pedestrianised street is pretty gloomy most of the time. Bordeaux has a new tram system. Bordeaux isn't part of a conurbation and it's metro area is definitely no larger than that of Cardiff. Nice city though,; there's a downmarket flop-house "Hotel Cardiff" in the city centre advertising "Chat grise", you can draw your own conclusions! Chapter in Canton is an independent cinema, and Borders bookshop is opening in David Morgan (I think).

A Borders bookshop would be more in keeping with the building and it's location between the old and new libraries. As I said I didn't know about independent cinemas in the suburbs because the area I know best is the city centre. It's great to hear that an independent cinema still survives, would have liked to have seen one still surviving in the city centre but I suppose they all got priced out.
Nice city though,; there's a downmarket flop-house "Hotel Cardiff" in the city centre advertising "Chat grise", you can draw your own conclusions!
Haha, oh dear what a unfortunate advert for Cardiff!

Urbano:

Whilst it is true that I have said that I feel a housing market crash is unlikely due to a lower real interest rate, tight supply and strong demand, I haven't said there is not an element of 'speculation' in the market - like all 'real assets' this is always part of demand. But I don't think its a bubble of the 1980s sorts.

With regards your analysis of the retail sector, it is true that the design of shopping centres is to a great extent tailored to the desires of a few key clients that are considered important "anchors" for the project. The largest units are given the most prominent locations, the terms of the rental agreements are such that they are most appealing to large chains etc etc. But this is just the shopping centre owners doing what any business does - trying to appeal to its main clients. Increasingly to pass planning permission, developers have to provide smaller units which are suitable for smaller, independent retailers even if most of them get taken up by chain stores when things are finally constructed.

The consolidation of the retail sector has, in most consumers minds, brought great benefits in much reduced clothing costs; clothes prices have fallen considerably, there is a much greater variety available and competition is reckoned to be the most intense ever. The fact that shopping centres are 'identikit' is secondary - if it really really matters to people they can vote with their feet and return to the high street, which isn't "dead", just weaker than it once was. It is also the responsibility of civic authorities to encourage the building of centres appropriate to the location that respect the local town-scape. The St David's II scheme seems to have this covered - and in any case the planning mistakes of the 1960s and 1970s means there is little to preserve architectually in the nearby area.

Borders is great news! They tend to have a comprehensive magazine and news section; I recall reading an article that Cardiff was lacking a place where one could purchase obscure interest magazines, or journals on foreign affairs, or foreign language papers and this was detracting from the "international city" image. Lets hope this rectifies it!

Well i finally went down to have a look a the debating chamber and wasnt all that impressed. On the one hand if you think what it is, a room to have a a discusion in - then its great, but if you think what it symbolises - its a waste of money, most of which looks like its been spent on slate, which looks to me like the debating chamber is a lump of ice cream that has melted all over the bay front. I found it really small inside with only a coffe stand to intice you in (no art work). The finish on the wood around the debating chamber was really grubby and cheap looking. Anyway i do think its better than nothing, but would be impressive if part of a larger, iconic assembly building. Dont know if you are interested but here are some photos from new year in cardiff
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b353/sanstiss/156.jpg

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b353/sanstiss/155.jpg

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b353/sanstiss/173.jpg

Cambo Dai

Its a bubble because a huge number of flats are empty. What else could it be? You weren't one of the 364, economists who wrote to The Times in the early 80s, were you (only joking)?!

All you describe is what I describe -- a small number of large developers building shopping centres for a small number of large retailers. Off the top of my head, I can't think of one local company in St Davids Centre/Capitol Centre/Queens Arcade (and even if anyone can think of one,I think you know the point I am making). If, as you say, they bung in a few small units for local businesses (and I don't know whether that is correct or not), then that's just pure tokenism and doesn't work in practice. The reality is that every shop is a clone chain shop.

You refer to clothes prices. Clothes prices have fallen because most of the clothes are imported from sweatshops in the Far East etc . They're not made in Lancashire any more. In fact ,until recently, the large chains were making huge profits by charging high prices for stuff they bought incredibly cheaply in the Third World . Its only very recently indeed that Primark has given the market any sort of a shake up by passing those prices on.

The high Street is dead (it was largely killed off 30 plus years ago) ; what shops do you have in mind in Cardiff when you talk about the alternatives in the High Street? In fact, where in Cardiff do you mean geographically by "the high street"

The point I'm making is that it's not what people want -- its what they are given by a small number of players with an iron grip on shopping centres built for them by a very small number of developers. It is demonstrably true, otherwise a walk through Queen Street/High Street Arcade/St Davids Centre would be to experience a rich variety of interesting independent shops! Hm!

The problem with 'managing the market' is that it can have unforseen perverse effects. High land prices and strict planning regulations already limit the returns on capital for big retailers, and contribute to relatively high prices in Britain compared to countries like France, Italy, Germany and the USA. Interfering in the market would restrict competition and only make things worse.

Granted the market creates losers and well as winners. When small neighbourhood shops and services close, the poor, the old, and the disabled can be left without easy access to vital amenities. But surely the problem could be tackled through anti-'social exclusion' policies such as community transport rather than using the heavy hand of land use planning.

I'm slightly sceptical about Cambo Dai's assertion that strong fundamental demand inoculates the housing market against any fall in prices. The number of households was also growing through natural population increase, rising divorce rates and suburbanisation in the early to mid 90s when prices were falling or flat. The only real change in the demand fundamentals since then has been the significant rise in net immigration. But this is slightly different argument and one I believe we've rehearsed before.

"The only real change in the demand fundamentals since then has been the significant rise in net immigration. But this is slightly different argument and one I believe we've rehearsed before"

This is not the only major change. There has been a big fall in housebuilding as well as stronger growth in demand. We are building something like 75,000 - 100,000 too few homes each year. A lot of this is due to a shortage of small family homes, rather than city-centre apartments, but the latter remain in still relatively high demand as evidenced by continued investor activity. I do expect a major slowing in demand, but not a collapse; prices may stagnate but a collapse is pretty unlikely. The other main 'demand side' change has been the fall in both long-term and short-term real interest rates in the UK from an average of 4 - 5% til the early 1990s to about 2% today. House ownership is economically modelled as providing a 'stream of housing services over time' which are now discounted at a lower interest rate. This pushes up the net present value of the 'housing services' and therefore increases the value of property.

Urbano:

Your argument is circular. It takes as a starting point that chain stores are somehow inherently bad, and hey presto... chain stores are bad! This is a purely personal opinion and one that not everyone need agree with. Clothes prices have been (relatively) falling for years, fairly steadily in fact; what we've seen recently is the disappearance of mid-market with firms typically offering 2 lines of 'bargain' and 'full price' product making it seem like prices have suddenly tumbled. A great deal of this is due to China but increased competition on the high street is to a great extent responsible for the largely disappeared price-gap with continental Europe... and managed with high land values.

I agree with Pondle's posts. The answer is always levelling up, not levelling down. The Tesco in Upper Boat had a good bus service used regularly by local OAPs, in particular. Such services could easily be expanded and equity grounds mean that they should pass cost-benefit analyses in enough cases to have an impact.

Cambo Dai

I hate shopping , so I've no particular views what shops should be like in themselves. If I had , those views would be about as sensible or relevant as ( say) my having a view on what colour jeans people should buy.

All I am saying is that huge concentrations of power- economic just as much as political- are inherently dangerous and invariably lead to abuse. That is what has happened with shopping. A few powerful retailers get into bed with a few powerful property developers, and the High Street ends up being controlled by a few powerful players .

The point of all this, if you recall, is that the changes in the High Street have not been , as you said previously, a bottom up revolution ( i.e. dictated only by consumer demand) ; it has been very much a top down exercise .The big players say "This is where you will shop , and this is the sort of shop you will shop in, and this is what the mall will look like " and people say " Oh, ok then " and off they go.

The answer is always levelling up, not levelling down. The Tesco in Upper Boat had a good bus service used regularly by local OAPs, in particular. Such services could easily be expanded and equity grounds mean that they should pass cost-benefit analyses in enough cases to have an impact.
If you're only considering economics then maybe, but there are other factors to consider. Take the example of traffic congestion created by a new out of town retail park/supermarket/entertainment centre and the problems linked with it such as pollution (emissions, noise), threats to public health and safety (car accidents, exhaust fumes), the need to expand the road network (expensive, damaging to the natural environment) and the need to provide extra public transport to cater for those who cannot drive (expensive, further increase in traffic on roads). Ok, while the increased tax revenue may partially offset the extra expense incurred on things like road expansion, extra busses etc, that tax revenue will not offset the social, environmental and health implications of this.

Throwing money at it will not undo the fact that a duck billed platypus breeding ground was destroyed to build the shops and roads leading to it, that 10 more people a year are killed in traffic accidents, that the rate of asthma and lung cancer have gone up 20%, 4 times the ammount of CO2 emissions are released into the atmosphere and 80 year old Dorris has to pay 5 quid extra a week to do her shopping directly as a result of the decision to allow the development of a new Tesco Extra 5 miles from the sleepy little town of Springfield, South Wales.
[Disclaimer - the above is a completely fictional scenario and no old ladies were actually robbed of an extra 5 quid a week]!

http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0300business/0900commercialproperty/tm_objectid=16845162%26method=full%26siteid=50082%26headline=cardiff%2d%2dregional%2dbackwater%2dor%2dvibrant%2dnew%2dmetropolis%2d-name_page.html


Cardiff: regional backwater or vibrant new metropolis?

Mar 21 2006

Business in Wales

Architect Robert Firth gives his view of the city's built environment
As a capital city, Cardiff has managed to grow and develop all the built environment benefits of government facilities, national institutions and headquarters and major sporting and artistic venues.
In parts of the city the sense of civic pride is evident and tangible to inhabitants and visitors alike, but unfortunately in many areas the city struggles to achieve architectural distinction and allow itself to demonstrate its capital status.
The relatively small size of the city has no doubt contributed to this, but there is little doubt that it punches well above its weight in terms of bang for buck in the built environment.
The standard of design in the built environment varies across the city.The first real establishment of civic pride is embodied in the civic centre in Cathays Park. These are grand, classical, statement buildings which demonstrate the importance of Cardiff as a capital city and encompass the university, the courts buildings, the government and the national museum.
The castle and Bute Park, Roath Park, the Victorian arcades knitting the retail centre together and elements of Mount Stuart Square in the Docks (now The Bay) are similar highlights of a bold, confident city eager to make its mark on the world.
A lot of what has come since is, unfortunately, poor. Although the river, the parks, the docks and the main street layout has forced the city to retain some of its original grandeur, the intervening decades have seen a large amount of anonymous ‘anywhere’ buildings, frequently creating awkward, windswept, unfriendly, car dominated public spaces.
This disease extended to most cities in the United Kingdom to a greater or lesser degree over the last five decades, and was only controlled by the lack or availability of space to develop within the city.
In Cardiff major areas of the retail centre layout and aesthetic are poor, but the network of arcades and malls, in particular the Victorian originals, ensure that the experience for visitors and inhabitants is, overall, a pleasant one.
The new development at the Brewery Quarter has been beautifully woven into the fabric of the city, and it must be hoped that the massive St David's 2 scheme reflects and builds on the best features of the existing cityscape and layout. The close involvement of the Design Commission for Wales throughout the early design phases of St David's 2 is to be welcomed, and will hopefully guide the development, as far as is possible, in the right direction.
The majority of the offices and commercial buildings across Cardiff are nondescript. Built for the amount of square footage provided rather than for any sense of civic space or urban planning they line up next to the main traffic routes, such as Newport Road and Dumfries Place, providing little or no interaction with street level, with the majority poorly designed and adding no urban quality to the city.
It is a relief to see many of the older office buildings now opened up at ground level and transformed into bars, restaurants and cafes, re-engaging with the urban realm. Callaghan Square is one of the more successful commercial developments, but only as long as the grand urban plan which kicked off the development is driven forward in the remaining phases and reflects the quality of the first building.
The Bay is a real mix of architectural goodies and a dog’s dinner in terms of the overall planning of the space. Because of the nature of the development – fast infrastructure and large site planning followed by long periods of slow site development, the Bay has gradually become a selection box of architectural landmarks jostling for attention.
Although some elements work well, in particular the new public space at Roald Dahl Place bordered by the Wales Millennium Centre, there is little urban planning between these buildings. However, the success of the barrage in reclaiming so much waterside frontage to the south of the city far outweighs any criticism of individual parts of the Bay jigsaw.
We should, however, be vigilant to ensure that the quality of the architecture and landscape in Cardiff Bay is of the highest possible order.
To summarise, Cardiff has achieved much in the last 20 years – a seismic shift in development compared to many regional cities in the UK. To move forward the city must concentrate on filling the centre with a dense, well designed, well planned urban fabric incorporating vibrant public space and knitting the river, the Bay, green lungs and integrated transport into the intervening urban grain. Too much to ask for? I hope not. I enjoy living in Cardiff. I look forward to its future form with both caution and anticipation.
Cardiff Waterside: a new future for Cardiff Bay
The opening of the new Senedd on St David’s Day will demonstrate the significance of Cardiff Bay as the national seat of government and the home of many influential public and private sector organisations.
Morley Fund Management, part of Aviva plc and one of the largest property fund managers in Europe, has recognised the potential of Cardiff and the future prospects for Cardiff Bay.
When Associated British Ports (ABP) set up the Cardiff Bay Partnership in 2000, Morley advised two Norwich Union funds to become equity partners.
In 2004, the same funds acquired sole ownership of the Cardiff Bay Partnership and its Cardiff Waterside estate, which currently includes a range of existing office buildings with a total floor area of approximately 460,000 sq ft and a capital value in excess of £110m .
Buildings within the Cardiff Waterside Estate include Crickhowell House, Atradius, Alexander House, Ross House, Discovery House, Emperor House, Arup, Regus House, One Caspian Point, Two Caspian Point and Terra Nova House.
In addition Morley controls around 6.5 acres of prime redevelopment land at Cardiff Waterside, and one of the vacant sites is immediately adjacent to the Senedd.
This site, 1 Assembly Square, is one of the most prestigious development sites remaining in Wales.
“The great attraction of Cardiff Bay for investors is the potential for capital appreciation through rental growth,” said Rob Jones, Knight Frank’s investment asset manager for the Cardiff Bay Partnership
He added: “However, we will only achieve this by providing high quality headquarters buildings that will attract both expanding indigenous organisations as well as inward investors. At Cardiff Waterside there is plenty of scope to make this area the prime office core, since we can provide not only the buildings and the potential for future development, but also an excellent working environment.”
Within the UK and the wider European market, Cardiff’s profile has to rise as a key business location.
In achieving this Knight Frank will be working in partnership with Cardiff Council and the Welsh Development Agency (WDA) to promote the city to potential inward investors.
The success of this marketing initiative could bring up to 5,000 new jobs into Cardiff and strengthen the commercial property market within the city to such an extent that the beneficial effects will spread to other key urban centres within South Wales, such as Newport and Swansea.
Keen to move ahead with its plans for Cardiff Waterside, Morley submitted an outline planning application for the vacant sites in December 2005.
Aiming to create an additional 699,600 sq ft of Grade A office space with car parking, the new buildings, which will have a capital value of £160m, can be sub-divided into suites from 8,000 sq ft to individual buildings of 100,000 sq ft, or complexes of linked buildings up to 230,000 sq ft.
Mike Luscombe, fund manager at Morley Fund Management said: “We are planning to build new landmark buildings for Cardiff, which will reflect not only the importance of their strategic location but also the aspirations of future occupiers.”
The planning application is likely to be determined in the spring, but in the meantime Morley has gained planning consent, subject to a Section 106 agreement, for a multi-storey car park to be built opposite the Wales Millennium Centre.
The car park, which will cost just under £15m to build, will provide 1,236 spaces, 800 of which will be on contract to existing occupiers within the Cardiff Waterside estate during working hours. The contract for the car park is currently out to tender and it is anticipated that construction will start in May 2006.
“The progress on the multi-storey car park is very good news for the area,” said Luscombe.
“It will provide a valuable service for people who work in the Bay area as well as for visitors, and it is an important first phase in the new development at Cardiff Waterside.”
Along with Morley, the Bay has already attracted significant levels of investment from institutional funds such as Standard Life, Prudential, Arlington, British Airways Pension Fund and Schroders. Meanwhile, existing occupiers on the Cardiff Waterside estate are continuing to expand and we are aware of a significant increase in the number of organisations seeking to relocate to Cardiff Bay.
Now there is a definite air of excitement around the Bay.
“Through the Cardiff Bay Partnership, Morley has brought a very positive ‘can do’ attitude to the Bay and this is already having a tremendously beneficial effect,” said Mr Jones.
“Going forward, we will be focusing attention on working with other investors, with the Council and with the WDA to market the city to a wider international audience.”

Cardiff would probably have looked a lot worse had 60s and 70s plans for an urban "Hook Road" (involving the demolition of nearly 2000 houses) and various city centre shopping monstrosities had proceeded. To that extent we should probably be thankful.

There were lost opportunities in the early 90s when CBDC decided, barely credibly, to try to import Barcelona's Ramblas and a tram system of pathetically toytown dimensions (only one mile long!) into Butetown. A gorgeous masterplan was produced but perhaps unsurprisingly we ended up with the windswept, part-complete Lloyd George Avenue and Callaghan Square.

Unfortunately half of the modern buildings in Cardiff Bay are identikit (and often empty) waterside apartments, and many of the others are trying to look like a ship - the Forte Hotel, what was the NCM building, even the tacky Atlantic Wharf centre. SA1 at Swansea may be in danger of following suit if the Altamar and Technium 2 are anything to go by.

I also bemoan the failure to build Zaha Hadid's exciting "Glass Necklace" opera house, it would have given Cardiff a stunning, controversial and contemporary major building by a world-renowned architect. At least the unexcitingly-named and somewhat inferior Millennium Centre was salvaged from the bungling and backstabbing that accompanied the opera house debacle.

Interesting analogy about car-culture Andrew. Many people use cars as a means to create an identity and to socialise. The trip to the out-of-town supermarkethas a creepy significance in our society/culture. Morrisons going up next to Asdaand across the Ely from Tesco is vain and insane.

after all the serious discussion over the last few days (that i have enjoyed reading). We can recognise that our city has many problems. But let's also remind ourselves of the good things. Had a look back through the archives to the pictures Cardiff(the poster) took last summer. I love the 'Diff in the summer!

City centre Splot and Roath
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=248585

Cardiff part 1
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=245469

Cardiff part 2
http://skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=4995358#post4995358

Cardiff part 3
http://skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=5047027#post5047027

dammit! pictures are down in 1,2 and 3 :(

Oh well, that's a shame, at least we've still got 'City centre Splot and Roath'.
One good thing about Cardiff is that large parts of the city have a lot of greenery:
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a102/susananstiss/cardiff170805024.jpg

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a102/susananstiss/cardiff170805011.jpg

This is certainly an asset although some of the suburbs, especially in the east could do with more trees:
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a102/susananstiss/cardiff170805013.jpg

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a102/susananstiss/cardiff170805004.jpg

I'd also quite like to see some trees planted along the western end of Newport Road; they would really help to soften the generally harsh and dominating feel of this part of the street:
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a102/susananstiss/cardiff170805023.jpg

The view east along Newport Rd is better though, a lot more trees there and some wonderful old buildings too:
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a102/susananstiss/cardiff170805015.jpg

I agree with you danJonze, we must remind ourselves of what we've got. I often criticise the mistakes made in our city but that doesnt detract from the fact that we do have a wonderful city. In wider terms Cardiff's problems are small compared to many other cities in the UK and abroad and I'm extremely thankful for that. Personally when I criticise decisions, new developments or even long term trends that I disagree with in Cardiff it's precisely because I appreciate what we've got that I dont want to see any of it ruined or the good bits detracted from.

Thanks to Cardiff (the forumer) for originally posting the photos that I've reposted here.

Oh and by the way, thanks for posting the photos of the winter wonderland, Cardiff. Shame the first and third pics arent sharp but the second one looks great!

Hey, my pictures! no probs! sorry about quality on winter wonderland pictures, 1st one was going around on the wheel, second one it was v.cold (and i was a bit drunk!).
Here is a pic of cardiff from caerphilly mountain
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b353/sanstiss/cardiffcaer.jpg

and dont forget how wonderfull the countryside is here

breconbeacons

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b353/sanstiss/P1260017.jpg

coast

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b353/sanstiss/P3100014.jpg

Nice Pics.

It was interesting reading about Morley's plans for Capital Waterside (which seems to be rebranded "Cardiff Waterside" on their website, incidentally). Its a pretty big office scheme, with total space about 4.5 x the current 1 & 2 Callaghan Square Building. Is all this space to be built speculatively or are they applying for applying for outline planning permission just to be ready in case of any offers / interest they receive? The latter seems more likely but I've long thought that whole area is rather empty and windswept looking and detracts from Cardiff Bay, so the sooner this stuff can be built the better. I'm guessing it won't involve any proper high rise, but considering the small size of No. 1 Assembly Square, we might see a reasonably tall (and hopefully striking) structure here to make best use of what is probably rightly-labelled one of the most prestigious office locations in Wales. Caspian Point has been rather dull and uninspiring, so lets hope these new buildings are better. They should make an effort to ensure the buildings reflect and complement their neighbours (the Millennium Centre and the Assembly Chamber) - use of glass, slate/stone (or at least something approximating this), steel and wood would be a lot more appropriate than red-brick. If Cardiff Waterside is to really fit in with the rest of the bay some attempt should be made to atleast make it a little friendlier for the visitor / pedestrian. There must be enough office workers to support a little coffee shop, sandwich bar. A little public seating or sculpture in a small square wouldn't go amiss either.

I recall one of the users of this board being involved in Planning in Cardiff. Is there any more info (e.g. artists impressions, heights of buildings, masterplan drawings etc) around that can be made public? I'd be very interested in seeing more info on the plans. I hope theres some new info on just what to expect south of Roath Basin too.

The article's discussion of Callaghan Square was interesting. I think the current building is good.. but the square itself is a big disappointment. Its simply 'dead'. Hopefully when the rest of the scheme is built things will improve and something can be done to change it from a glorified traffic island into something a big livelier with maybe a coffee or food stand and somewhere for people to meet.

Yeah, I agree completely on all those points. I remember a (very) long time ago seeing a model of the whole Inner Harbour area with proposed developments on it. It showed a narrow but relatively tall building at 1 Assembly Sq that mirrored the curve of the former NCM building next to it. It appeared to fit in well, a good looking building that was distinctive and yet still jelled with it's surroundings. Bear in mind that this was a long time ago and dispite looking on a number of occasions I have not been able to find it again.
Callaghan Square certainly does need livening up, the actual square is dead at the moment and (last I noticed) is only ever used by skaters. Hell, they could build a skate park in the middle of it. That might actually work, they did something like that in Rotterdam and it looks awesome!
Hey Cardiff, I've always wondered how the view from Caerphilly Mountain would come out like in photos, looks like there's a lot of potential for some great shots from there with a decent camera that has a good zoom on a clear day (or even night). Good shot, shame it wasn't that clear when you went up there.

Last summer me and friends went up one of the hills between Cardiff and Newport to the right of Caerphilly Mountain. Got there by going up a road at Cardiff East junction. It was a gorgeous day, plus the best bit was you could see Penarth, Cardiff and Newport AND the Severn bridge all at once. And could also make out distingtive buildings. Alas, no camera that day. But come a clear day i'll try and go back up there. Would make a great panorama.

I'll tell about one little vision i had down the bay today. I imagined how great Mount Stuart Square round the Coal Exchange and West Bute Street are would be if it was more public friendly, bit more green, street coffe houses and resteraunts. The buildings there are beautiful, and would make a great little bohemian quarter i thought. It's mostly banks and things that are there at the moment

I agree about mount stuart square, its very beautifull and is a majour part of Cardiffs history. Its just a bit lost behind the buildings in front of it, if they were moved (possibly to the empty space to left) and a lawn with a fountain leading up to the coal exchange (and a radical refurbishment of the coal exchange - removing that ugly cocrete drive way and replacing it with steps) would create another addition to the bay.

ic wales


Gaps around Cardiff Bay to be filled by Igloo homes Mar 23 2006




Business in Wales


Cardiff's Roath Basin development has been described as the waterfront project with the best potential in Britain

Britain's first urban regeneration fund, Igloo Regeneration Partnership, has been chosen as the private sector development partner for the £200m redevelopment of Cardiff Bay’s Roath Basin. Igloo, established in 2002, is managed by Morley Fund Management, which currently has in excess of £17bn of property investment funds under management.

The project will be one of the most significant waterfront developments in the UK and will transform the last major derelict site in the Inner Harbour area, to create more than one million sq ft of commercial space and more than 1,000 new homes. It is anticipated that the redeveloped site will ultimately provide opportunities for some 4,000 jobs.

The masterplan for the site allows for the development of commercial space targeted at the media, creative and life sciences sectors of the economy and includes a Life Sciences Technium, designed to act as an incubator centre for new and small business ventures with outstanding potential.

The redevelopment will also include some 200,000 sq ft of leisure and retail space as well as a range of housing, including affordable units. These will be among the first in the UK designed to give flexibility of spaces to enable adaptation for lifestyle changes, developed from the experience of the best designers across Europe.




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Economic development and transport minister Andrew Davies said: “Roath Basin has the potential to be one of the most successful waterside developments anywhere in Britain. We are going to create a vibrant, world-class neighbourhood, centred on two key industries of the future, which will be a flagship for Cardiff and for the whole of Wales.”


The WDA’s chief executive, Gareth Hall, said that a range of businesses in the media and life sciences sectors had already shown keen interest in the unique setting and strategic location of Roath Basin site.


Two dry docks will be flooded to help give the site more than 1.6 miles of uninterrupted waterfront, much of which looks across Cardiff Bay towards the Wales Millennium Centre and the new Senedd building.


Extensive infrastructure and public realm works including a new bridge linking the site to the remainder of the Inner Harbour will start at the end of the year to allow the occupation of the first buildings during 2008.


To undertake the project, the WDA has completed a commercial heads of terms agreement with Igloo. The partnership has grown from having one scheme with a value of £30m in 2002 to having a portfolio with a completed development value of £2.5bn today.


Igloo was appointed following a rigorous selection procedure covering criteria including financial, programming, approach to sustainability, urban and building design, and acceptance of a business model for the development.


Igloo was created to deliver environmentally sustainable, well-designed, mixed use regeneration projects near the top 20 city centres in the UK. It is funded by a variety of life and pension funds with a growing number of investors including major fund management houses, large charities and public sector pension funds.


Alongside the WDA, Igloo will now work with a team of local and international designers to develop the 38 acre site which is, effectively, the last chapter in a process of regeneration which started 20 years ago at Cardiff’s Inner Harbour.


Igloo’s development director Mark Hallett said: “Our vision for this project is of a world class, creative, sustainable, urban neighbourhood.


“Cardiff has a great city centre and good suburbs and beautiful surroundings. If we can create a world beating urban waterside neighbourhood around the Bay we will have a package of environments equal to the best in Europe.”

IC WALES


Book giant to open city centre store Mar 22 2006




David Williamson, Western Mail


BOOK superstore firm Borders has announced plans to open a flagship city centre store in Cardiff.

The announcement, at the London Book fair, comes three weeks after the opening of its latest superstore in Gateshead.

The international retailer is known for pioneering destination stores where visitors are encouraged to browse and listen to music.

Retail director Philip Downer said, "After a year of intensive development, with nine superstores in ten months, we are still focused on bringing our unique book and entertainment concept to every part of the UK."

Smaller stores will open in Newbury, Southampton and Milton Keynes.




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Borders will open a 22,000 sq ft store in Talbot Green Retail Park at Llantrisant this summer, with the 26,000 sq ft Cardiff opening in December on the former site of the David Morgan department store.

A good bit of news there. I think there's a lot of potential for the Roath Basin development, I hope they make the most of it with really good designs that work well together and provide a decent waterfront setting.

Nipped into Cardiff today just a couple of things going on.
The Central Hotel is well on it's way to being demolished, some 2/3 gone already.
Also the Scaffolding on 40Newport Road is coming down, it looks ok I suppose. I think the two floors on top look awkward though. You can really tell they've been stuck on later I think.
Scaffolding on the fourth tower at Victoria Wharf is coming down, the first one on the bay side of the Congan Spur bridge.
New Queen Street entrance to the St Davids Centre looks almost finished.
The enabling works for St Davids 2 on the Hayes seem to be nearing completion. Judging by there being far less holes than there were a few of weeks ago at least :p

I'll be back in Cardiff on Sunday after term so it will be interesting to see whats been happening since I was last there at the beginning of January. Has much happened with the Meridian Gate scheme? How about Celestia in Cardiff Bay?

I'll also get the chance to look at the Assembly Building too I hope... will maybe put my camera to use. How does one link photos to the posts on here?

I'll be back in Cardiff on Sunday after term so it will be interesting to see whats been happening since I was last there at the beginning of January. Has much happened with the Meridian Gate scheme? How about Celestia in Cardiff Bay?

I'll also get the chance to look at the Assembly Building too I hope... will maybe put my camera to use. How does one link photos to the posts on here?

Nothing has happened with Meridian Gate. It's still just fenched off, they've not even removed the benches and 'lightsaber' things yet.
Didn't go down the bay so I don't know what's happening with Celestia other than you can see it poking out in the distance sometimes, so it must be getting quite tall.
And 18 Callaghan Square is coming along nicely, most of the steal framework seems to be in place now.

I hope they get a move on! I want to get home to find the whole of Cardiff is a building site!! lol

I hear there is a new building of interesting design and large scale planned for the old axa building site next to Altolusso. Someone should take a look at the Plans and maybe sneak a digital camera in?

I though Meridian Gate was the old Axa site? Next to the statue of Jim Driscoll and the light sculpture, just north of Callaghan Square?

The DCFW have a report on the scheme here - http://www.dcfw.co.uk/media/reports/MeredianGateCardiff.pdf

^ Correct, that is Meridian Gate. As far as I'm aware no renders or anything have been released to show what's planned. Quite strange for a project of this size really.

soooo beautiful. wow.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b353/sanstiss/P3100014.jpg

^ Correct, that is Meridian Gate. As far as I'm aware no renders or anything have been released to show what's planned. Quite strange for a project of this size really.

There are some outline artists impressions doing the rounds - http://www.homesgofast.com/property_search/advert_viewer.php?p_id=12632&ref=185-536-521

http://www.3d.ie/html/uk_cardiff.htm

The gull wing on the roof resembles the Forte hotel, doesn't it?

^ Correct, that is Meridian Gate. As far as I'm aware no renders or anything have been released to show what's planned. Quite strange for a project of this size really.

I think I saw a B&W one in the Echo a few weeks ago in an article about the Radisson (sp?) hotel, it was a proper mock-up but looked like the building in Pondle's links. Sorry but I can't get a scan of it as I don't actually have that edition newspaper.

Pondle - the gull wings remind me of a 1960's office block they have (or at least had) in Plymouth.

Hey! I havent seen that render before!
http://www.homesgofast.com/images/properties/12632A.jpg

That's a change (and slight improvement) on the design in the only other drawing I've seen:
http://www.skyscrapernews.com/images/pics/1314MeridianGateRedevelopment_pic1.jpg

I wonder if the design has changed again in the current application. I cant wait to see this one go up as well. Bute Terrace is going to be a very impressive street once this and the John Lewis Dept Store have been built. Also if those towers on Adam Street ever get built then that entrance into the city centre is going to be extremely impressive. It's gonna have another Newport Road kind of effect (with taller towers)!

Yes, although I am very critical of Lloyd George Avenue, it is impressive to see the tall buildings 1km ahead of you as you drive towards the city centre along the boulevard.

DCFW are critical of the residential block - "the architectural treatment and choice of materials left much to be desired", and mention the low parking allocation - 118 flats and a 200 bed hotel, with only 75 spaces. Ouch. Oh well, it is near the railway and bus stations I suppose.

Look out for a start on site this September!

I've read the DCFW article and I hope a redesign has been done to address their concerns about the residential block.
Yes they mention the low parking provision but read it again. They praise the design for it's low level of parking:
We applaud the reduction in parking provision, but we are concerned at the way in which the taxi dropoff point squeezes the footpath to a narrow strip in front of the hotel.
I agree with them, they say that the small number of parking spaces for the hotel is due to the assumption that 80% of hotel guests will use public transport. For a city centre development like this parking should be kept to a minimum if at all possible. It will be good to have a sizeable number of residents in the city centre who wont be using cars as well, hopefully it will increase the usership of public transport and hence provide more of a case for future improvements to it. Also residents who dont have cars will also have to use city centre facilities and services more often which will improve the centre's vitality especially after hours.

The DCFW has rather major objections to most of the projects it considers - the Meredian Gate scheme seems to be no worse than that for the others. In all the scheme looks okay, although I worry it may look a little lopsided from certain vantages.

Had a good look around Cardiff bay today. The whole area around Roath Basin (North Side) will really look better when they have the infill buildings built. 1 Assembly Square is a pretty narrow site so I think whatever goes here will have to be some height although by no means a skyscraper. I'm thinking 7 or 8 stories. And they should really make some effort to get some active frontage on the road leading from Pierhead Street to Lloyd George Avenue when they build the offices on that site. At the moment its rather dreary, and I doubt its that much better in the summer. Celestia is taking shape, but I note with disappointment its going to be a 'gated community'. Waterquarter looks almost finished but it seems a little bit of an island in a sea of roundabouts.

I walked back up into town through Atlantic Wharf, along the canal area. Some nice little houses along there, was a bit surprised. However, more care needs to be taken of that area - lots of brambles etc. In fact a lot of rubbish too. Indeed I've noticed that more than ever this time home in S. Wales - the sheer amount of litter everywhere whether it be on verges next to the dual carriageways, in patches of bare ground or even on our main streets. It really looks terrible. Its shameful in fact. And before people blame the council, its much more the fault of the people of South Wales who seem to have lost all civic pride despite some pretty big investments by the public sector in recent years. There was a very interesting article by Terry Matthews in the Western Mail a week or so back which I thoroughly agree with.

Visted the assembly and thought it was pretty good - though the debate I sat and watched was rather tedious. The visitor centre in the pierhead building was interesting, but has anyone else noticed the increasing prominence of Welsh over English in public buildings? I'm all for keeping Welsh alive, but it should be recognised that English is the main language for the vast majority of the population, and indeed the only fluent language for about 80%. The "Tube" seems to be closed again which I think is disgusting; I'm not sure how if this is to do with the local authority strikes. I thought they were staffed by non-council employees?

A report on the radio said there was going to be a 100 million investment in cardiff international airport, shows cardiffs expansion as a world city!

A report on the radio said there was going to be a 100 million investment in cardiff international airport, shows cardiffs expansion as a world city!

Did they go into any detail as to what kind of expansion would happen? A new terminal perhaps?

Hehe world city! I like it, a little bit ambitious perhaps but a bit too ambitious is better than no ambition. With money being put into an airport expansion what will really be needed is an express rail link to Cardiff city centre and perhaps also to other centres in the area.

Don't get your hopes up too much. £100 is over 20 years. Thats a step up in capital investment but its not huge. What they envisage is an improved terminal building, and a multistory car park and an improved taxi-ing area to boost capacity. By 2015 they want 5 million passengers (as opposed to about 2.1 million now - WMail quote too low), and 8 million by 2030. So its a considerable expansion in numbers,... about 70 -100% faster than the overall industry growth expected, but nothing to show for it in the near term. But you are right it does suggest we should have a better link to it. The rejection of a road scheme seems to be based on more than just cost - it seems to take the public transport argument too far. Yes, we want a much higher percentage to use public transport to get to the airport. But, if the number of passengers is expected to quadruple, then the absolute number of road users is sure to rise and that can only be accomodated using a new road. If they are planning to build a new interchange on the A4232 for the Ely Bridge development, the access road could come from here, and cut across country to avoid any more nasty congestion that a dualling of the road from CulverHouse Cross. It would also make nice easy access from the city centre and the bay via the A4232 or from Ely Bridge.

Obviously all these things take time. I'm one of the impatient sort who sees all these impressive plans for new roads, or housing developments etc etc and wants to see them built very quickly. But some of these projects are very long term. For instance, I've seen it written that the Roath Basin South Side may be a 20 year project (the Design Commission for Wales evaluation I think).

Re: the road improvements, the last I heard WAG had decided to improve Five Mile lane (from the western end of Barry to St Nicholas), and in the longer term look at a direct link from M4 J34.

There's a factsheet here -
http://www.wales.gov.uk/subitransport/content/leaflet/access-cia-e.pdf

Re: the Welsh language, my father would have a lot of sympathy with you, Cambo Dai! It's strange how deference to the Welsh language has become 'politically correct', when linguistic nationalism is in many ways reactionary and romantic. The function of the language appears to be changing - it is less and less a community language, despite the growth of the crude number of speakers reported in the census. Interestingly, in a quarter of those families where at least one parent speaks Welsh, the language is not transmitted from one generation to the other. Maybe we are going to arrive at an Irish situation having some knowledge of the language has political cachet and gives certain public sector employment advantages, but very few people actually use it day-to-day.

I've seen the proposals of the Assembly government. They strike me as unimaginative to say the least. The link from Junction 34 is proposed to be single carriageway. A dualled route for the airport from the A4232 / Cardiff and with junctions for Barry could have positive development spin offs for Barry in increasing the attractiveness of the town as an investment site. I realise roads are unpopular but this is being called for by the business community farely strongly.

Has there ever been any information on when its proposed to start the Eastern Bay Link? This is clearly a massively important project, and one that could have a massive impact on the attractiveness of the bay as a business location, not withstanding the reduced traffic going through the western part of the peripheral distributor and the city centre. A major problem is Southern Way.. will the section from Newport Rd to Pengam Green be Dualled? And there's already bad traffic jams trying to get back on to the A48. That junction might need some work too if any scheme is to be truly effective. But it still seems a mightily important scheme. More important than the seemingly very costly Port Talbot peripheral distributor.. something like 98 million for a road scheme in a town where all the industry seems to line up to a motorway anyway.

- oh and agree with you regarding the Welsh language. I think Welsh society is becoming increasingly parochial, and we're all worse for that. Rather than trumpetting our Welshness all the time (which we should nevertheless be proud of) we should aim to be a dynamic region of the UK and Europe. On a practical note going to the Museums in Cardiff or to the Assembly Visitor centre has become a chore.. searching out for the smaller fonted English. Or trying to catch the english showing of an info-video as about 2/3 seem to be yng gymraeg.

Southern Way will be dualled as part of the Eastern Bay Link plans. Blame John Redwood for the failure to progress this road in the 90s - I hear he deleted it from the Welsh Office budget.

Cardiff CC is trying to put together a PPP to fund the Eastern Bay Link and other schemes. Capita and Mowlem were announced as preferred bidder for the PPP in September last year. These types of arrangements are probably the only way UAs are going to get their major road schemes funded in future, as the WAG transport budget is constantly shrinking. Swansea should take note re: the Hafod bypass.

The Port Talbot PDR is partly a relief for the motorway, which is approaching its traffic capacity with a forecasted overload of 40% in the near future. I can testify to the jams around junctions 41 and 40 every morning and evening, especially on Fridays when the traffic is often stacked as far back as junction 38 (Margam). Ideally the M4 would simply be widened, unfortunately most of this section is elevated and it passes through a narrow corridor with houses on both sides. This is actually the oldest and worst standard part of the M4 in Wales, opened in 1966 with only two lanes, frequent junctions, short slip roads and a 50mph limit with a really awkwardly placed Gatso. It probably doesn't meet modern motorway standards.

The PDR will of course also open up industrial land around the docks. I've occasionally heard rumours that ABP wants to make more use of Port Talbot docks, but I'm not an expert on the industry so I don't know what the status of this is. Anyway's there's no prospect of a typical waterfront redevelopment as the steelworks is far too close: we're probably talking more light industry.

Don't hold you breath re: Cardiff airport. This facility is in essence only a holiday airport. Because of its location and therefore limited catchment it can never compete with London or even Bristol. The lack of a decent international airport with real business destinations served on a regular basis (as opposed to multiple destinations to the Iberian peninsula) is one of the reasons the South Wales economy will struggle vs. those city regions with such infrastructure (e.g. Manchester). There were a couple of proposals for Severnside airport nr the Severn Bridge (on the M4/M5 motorway and main rail line) which would have had a catchment are similar to Manchester airport (with 18M passengers per year). However lack of political support and criticism from the owners of both Cardiff and Bristol airport meant these were both scuppered. Therefore Cardiff and to a lesser extent Bristol will have to rely in may cases on London airport (If you read the UK Dept of Transport analysis in 2004 they are happy for S Wales and SW England to export the highest proportion of airport demand to London vs. every other part of the UK). The lack of such a facility may well mean we move our business to another part of the UK to Europe.

The litter problem is out of control .It was very interesting what Terry Matthews said . He was embarrassed to bring people to Wales because of the litter problem, and viewed it as a major obstacle to inward investment. He should know. I think it reinforces my view that in many ways, as I have said, the Welsh should take a long hard look at themselves.

So far as the Welsh language is concerned, it is the only thing -- in reality -- which makes Wales truly distinctive. Wales has no serious national institutions, and no real history in the sense Scotland has. The language should be treasured. In an increasingly homogenised world it represents something of real value.

Incidentally, I've never understood why some Welsh people say they're proud to be Welsh. English people don't say they're proud to be English -- they're just English! A bit more self-confidence, please!

So far as the Welsh language is concerned, it is the only thing -- in reality -- which makes Wales truly distinctive. Wales has no serious national institutions,
You're wrong.

and no real history in the sense Scotland has.
You're still wrong. I guess Mel Gibson needs to make a film about it for it to be REAL history...

The language should be treasured.
Treat it like a treasure; lock it away in a safe?

In an increasingly homogenised world it represents something of real value.
Actually, I do agree that the Welsh language should be preserved and first-language welsh speakers need to be catered for. However, while provision of Welsh language services is important it should not make services in English, Wales's primary language, less effective. It definitely shouldn't be compulsory for children in Wales to sit a national qualification in Welsh. Concerned parties often try to conceal that there is a difference between preserving the language and reviving it.

Welcome to the forums Christo, it's brilliant; we're getting so many new Welsh forumers, conversation is positively buzzing! Gone are the days when tumbleweed rolls through the Cardiff and Swansea threads for a week! We could do with a few more people contributing to the Newport thread though. Hopefully getting closer to our very own Welsh subforum!
Topics of conversation have got a lot more diverse and informed. It's great to be chatting about things ranging from the state of the city's economy and housing market to the preservation/revival of the Welsh language. Hopefully we wont go too far off topic though, it is primarily about Cardiff developments afterall.
Re the Welsh language and history, I agree with Christo; Wales does have history comparable to that of Scotland. A Mel Gibson film does not history make! lol

Urbano is right to the extent that Wales has only developed 'national' institutions relatively recently (the University of Wales, founded in 1893, was the first) whereas Scotland of course has a long history as a political state (the Kingdom of Scotland traditionally dates from 843).

Welsh nationalism has always had a linguistic/ethnic core (defining the nation in terms of culture and/or ancestry) whereas, arguably, Scottish nationalism has possessed more of a 'civic' character (membership of the civic nation is considered voluntary). In part this is because 'Scotland' came to include areas such as Lothian which were English-speaking, and partly because the kingdom as a whole came under strong Anglo-Norman influence in the 13th century.

I agree that the Welsh language needs state support, but there is a question of justice for non-Welsh speakers and a need for pragmatism. Welsh is declining in its heartlands for all sorts of reasons, but some of the solutions are even worse. The programme of pressure groups like "Cymuned" (which humourously describes itself as "anti-colonialist and anti-racist") would create a two-tier society with monolingual English speakers seriously disadvantaged in access to housing and employment (http://notlikeus.com/)

Christo

Wales:-

1. has never existed as a unitary state

2. has never had a head of state

3. has never had its own national system of law and administration of justice

4, Has never had its own parliament


Its had its Glyndwr moment, and some accoutrements of statehood ( a university, but not until the 1890s, a Museum, and a toothless assembly)

In contrast, Scotland, for example, has had the first three numbered above for over 900 years, and a parliament some five hundred years ago

However, Wales has - against all odds- retained its language. That is why it is of such profound significance. What's your problem with it?

Anybody who doubts that Wales has no history, or that it's never had a head of state should read "The fight for Welsh Freedom" by the late Gwynfor Evans. Prior to the Norman invasion, much of Britain was Welsh speaking. I'm sure you all know this. Wales did have it's own parliament. Why do you think that the Saxons, Normans and English have spent the past 1500 years trying to impose their culture and language on Wales? Do you think it's because they want us to be happy? To quote another Plaid luminary, Dafydd Iwan: "Yna O Hyd" -"(we're) still here". The point has been made on this forum that Wales has a national inferiority complex. Many English and Welsh people considerWales and the Welsh to be second-rate. The reason that we don't have civic institutions is that the British State hasn't allowed us to develop them. Wales was incorporated into England fully by Tudor times. Scotland and England were united after the Scots Kings became Kings of England. Part of that deal was that Scotland retained some autonomy. Why is England so reluctant to let Wales have full independence? What in the hell do they want to hang on to us for if we're such a drain on their resources?They treat the Welsh like children, and it's so ingrained here that most of the Welsh submit to this vampiric hegemony.

The 'masterplan' for Cardiff International is available at http://info.cwlfly.com/en/content.asp?area=4&id=274

Cardiff Airport and it's mis-management is a total and utter disappointment, if memory serves me correctly Cardiff and Bristol airports had similar passenger numbers in the 90's. Bristol went and built a nice new terminal, got a budget airline Go (now easyjet) and the rest is history (it even has daily flights to New York Newark). The biggest difference I can see is in the management (Bristol ain't that much better to get to), Bristol marketed itself very agressively I remember visiting their website and there was an online petition to get daily US flights. During the same time Cardiff managed to loose BA even though it hosts their maintenance facility, get BMIbaby, get and loose AirWales. AirWales is another example of mis-management (is it somesort of a trait in the Welsh psyche*?), mind you that loss might be positive in the long run as three airlines have taken over their routes so they might develop new routes...

Cardiff now has to run just to stand still, a dual carriageway link would help, but the damage has already been done as Bristol has 4million or so passengers a year so is a tempting proposition. I just hope they do everything possible to make sure Cardiff is a success, no cutting corners by politicians (apparently better road links to the airport were semi-shelved because it might of lost Labour votes) because I don't want to see Wales become the only 'country' in the EU not to have an airport.

* I ask that because I've seen people with some degree of vision like Russell Goodway given loads of grief by the press and public, big projects like the Welsh Millennium Centre and the Assembly debating chamber critised because they're not hospitals. The internationally respected WDA has been taken over by the Assembly government (the public apparently disliked quangos). Sometimes I just want to bang my head against a wall when I wonder if the thing that's holding Wales back is its people (or the ones that shout a lot at least).

Anybody who doubts that Wales has no history, or that it's never had a head of state should read "The fight for Welsh Freedom" by the late Gwynfor Evans. Prior to the Norman invasion, much of Britain was Welsh speaking. I'm sure you all know this. Wales did have it's own parliament. Why do you think that the Saxons, Normans and English have spent the past 1500 years trying to impose their culture and language on Wales? Do you think it's because they want us to be happy? To quote another Plaid luminary, Dafydd Iwan: "Yna O Hyd" -"(we're) still here". The point has been made on this forum that Wales has a national inferiority complex. Many English and Welsh people considerWales and the Welsh to be second-rate. The reason that we don't have civic institutions is that the British State hasn't allowed us to develop them. Wales was incorporated into England fully by Tudor times. Scotland and England were united after the Scots Kings became Kings of England. Part of that deal was that Scotland retained some autonomy. Why is England so reluctant to let Wales have full independence? What in the hell do they want to hang on to us for if we're such a drain on their resources?They treat the Welsh like children, and it's so ingrained here that most of the Welsh submit to this vampiric hegemony.

Yes Wales does have a rich history.

BUT...

No Welsh wasn't the language spoken in the British Isles in Pre-Roman times it was ancient British! Welsh can be considered to be an off-shoot of that language. For more info see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_language_(Celtic)

Wales was incorportated into England because it was conquered by Edward I http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wales whereas Scotland and England were joined by Acts of Union passed by the Scots and English Parliaments http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acts_of_Union_1707

How much of the development of Wales was funded by the English and Scots? I know the development of the docks in Cardiff was funded by a Scotsman (who also owned a lot of coalmines up in the Valleys).

Most of all the Welsh must stop blaming other peoples for all the countries problems and just get on with it for the sake of the country. Pointing the finger of blame at other people solves NOTHING (that doesn't mean it's not their fault it just means it doesn't really matter whose fault it is). I could point the finger of blame for Cardiff airports lack of success at Bristol airport and say it's their fault for having the vision to build a new terminal and attract airlines - but what good would that do, it just diverts peoples attention from the real issues that need to be addressed.

A comparison with Belfast is interesting, although one may criticise the relevance due to the Northern Irish having no easy access to other airports (the ones down South are a fair way away and are usually not well connected to the North). Belfast has 2 airports "City" and "International", both of which deal with more passengers than Cardiff, and the latter greatly so. I recall the trumpetting of a million passengers @ Cardiff in the early 90s (I used to like to see the planes take off as a kid) and when BMIbaby set up it was suggested it would provide a major boost. Its made it a bit busier but not much. But I think theres still the capability to "catch up", given appropriate infrastructure development and a non-dogmatic approach to public / private transport.

I have often thought the same about my fellow Welsh; theres a complete lack of appreciation on the need to make Wales an attractive place for business or tourism. People see the nation in terms of Rugby and Tom Jones, and they'd be quite happy to have AMs meeting in portacabins and the performing arts relegated to a few grubby 19th century venues. Theres still a begrudging of business or commercial success beyond the local level, and in much of the valleys, where I'm actually from, a feeling of 'victimhood' is evident in the older generations which is being passed down as cynicism and apathy to the younger one.

And I don't buy into Nathan's story either. Yes, until about the 1870s there was official antipathy towards Wales and Welsh. But from then on the process of erosion of Welsh was fairly 'natural'.. families saw it as more economically important for their offspring to speak English and so English rather rapidly came to dominate, particularly in the Glamorgan valleys were an increasing number of English-speaking immigrants from the West Country (and Ireland) settled. Today, its swung too far the other way. Welsh speakers are setting up a (admittedly very mild) form of linguistic apartheid, at least in the public sector. To me, my Welshness has nothing to do with speaking Welsh. I speak a little, wish I could speak more, but when I get it forced down my throat I actually come to resent it. I recently recall proposals by Plaid to use only Welsh names for towns and cities in Wales. Such nationalistic ranting does little more than alienate potential overseas investors and much-needed migrants.

Maybe we're wandering a little off-topic from Cardiff development. Maybe the overly abundant signage on Lloyd George avenue could be reduced by getting rid of the English and going the whole hog "Heol yr Lloyd George" and "Scwar Callaghan"! :-S

Good points re Cardiff airport. However Bristol airport has twice the catchment population when compared to Cardiff. I agree we lack the vision thing - Severnside airport would have embraced and potentially offered a step change in our (and SW Englands) economic fortunes. However lack of vision from our local politicians and a strong lobby from BAA killed it. In fact I did hear that BAA had set aside £10M for a negative PR campaign against Severnside had it been included in the Governments aviation white paper in 2004...

The dual carriageway to Cardiff airport is a non-starter given it would cost >£100M to build.
Re WDA - lots of good PR but when you dig deep enough you find it was an expensive quango that lost its way in the mid 90's when it could no longer attract big inward investments... in fact you could build an airport with its running costs for 2 years (£800M per year budget).... I know what would make the biggest difference to Wales

Cambo Dai is right, the process whereby Welsh declined was due in no small part to people adopting English for their own social and economic advantage, linked to industrialisation and the advent of mass culture. Of course immigration did play a part in the decline of the language and yes, the attitude of officialdom was often hostile, but you can't entirely absolve the Welsh people themselves of the 'blame', if that has any meaning here. Language change and language death happen all over the world where a larger and/or more prestigious language co-exists with a smaller and/or less prestigious one: it's inevitable.

You can argue whether being part of the British state has been 'good' for Wales or not (however that could be judged!) but it is hard to imagine any circumstances whereby Wales could have become and remained a single independent entity, given its location, geography and tiny population. Also, don't confuse the feudal principalities of early medieval Wales with anything resembling a national state - the concept of a 'political nation', an ethnic group having control over its own political destiny within clearly defined borders, did not really exist at all before Johann Gottfried von Herder and the French Revolution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism#Historical_evolution_of_nationalism)

As for the WDA, well its has a mixed record, but the brand is well known nationally and internationally, and the quango model has several advantages. A quango is 'arms length' from Government and as a result less hidebound by civil service bureacracy. A quango has a management board that gives a real voice to expert opinion and is a useful foil for the usually short-term outlook of politicians (though some of the WDA board members are the 'usual suspects').

Of course in reality no public sector organisation can be totally divorced from politics and none can really operate in a dynamic 'commercial' manner, but the WDA was at least slightly more business-oriented than the innately conservative civil service. The civil service values process above outcomes, and its main skill lies in 'finessing' issues rather than delivering services.

I can tell you that many WDA staff are worried about how they are going to do their jobs come 1st April, last I heard a lot of fairly basic IT and financial issues hadn't been addressed, which doesn't inspire a lot of confidence.

Well the WDA is abut £365 million or so.. or atleast thats what it works out at if the running costs of £1 million a day quoted on BBC Wales are correct. The WDA was very successful in the 1980s and early 90s attracting manufacturing firms, particularly from the far East to South Wales. This kind of investment has switched to the much lower cost China and Eastern Europe now. However, its 'lack of success' recently is somewhat of an illusion. The service sector investments in Wales, which form most of the inward investment nowadays (plus aviation) tend to be smaller individually but sum up to a still sizeable sum. The reputation of the WDA is still held in high regard, and whilst I'm not totally against the decision to abolish it, I remain to be convinced that there'll be much positive outcone from the merger with the Assembly government. The risks seem definitely weighted to the downside.

I've seen estimates for such a road at about £120 million somewhere before. Yes a large sum. But not insummountable, and I'd be sure the cost/benefit is strongly in favour of this. I'm quite sure the main reason for rejection isn't money. In some ways the government is taking the environmental argument too far (in particular with regards to transport) yet in others its doing far too little (i.e. regarding home energy use, recylcing etc). A bit of the "blame it on business" culture coming through.

There was a study of the Cardiff Airport access route - http://www.wales.gov.uk/subitransport/content/transport/a48-a4232-accessstudy-index-e.htm

If you want to know anything about the WDA's services, running costs or performance against targets check out the annual report - http://www.wda.co.uk/resources/New_Main_AR2005_E.pdf

BTW I wouldn't expect WAG to wholly finance a £120m dual carriageway given their existing transport project commitments and determination to shrink the transport budget, especially in favour of health which always has first call on WAG resources. NHS Wales is a budgetary 'black hole' and no-one seems to have any ideas on how existing resources could be used more efficiently.

They could attempt to copy some elements of the English reforms. Before the budget deficits are brought up this is more to do with dramatic under-estimation of the cost of recent pay increases for doctors who are now by far the most highly paid in Europe. Waiting lists are much much lower in England now. Wales remains too wed to old-style block grants and "central planning".


Back to transport;
If you want any evidence of the Assembly governments underfunding of transport a comparison with Scotland is fair;

- A £600 million tram scheme for Edinburgh to commence this yr
- A £500 million extension of the M73 Motorway to connected up in Glasgow
- A potential extension to the Glasgow metro system costing several of hundreds of millions of pounds.
- A new bypass for Aberdeen also into the hundreds of millions.

Yes Wales is smaller. But its about 60% of the population of Scotland. Plus much of Wales gets objective 1 funding which could be put to much better use in transport or infrastructure projects rather than the quasi-social nonsense its gone to. Wales really has nothing to show for its objective one funding except a bloated quasi-public sector of agencies, commissions and charities.

Wales was conquered by Edward in a similar way to how Iraq is still being conquered by the "coalition of the willing". Brythonic is related to Welsh in a similar way to how early English is related to English. Children are told of the "Dark Ages" lying between Roman Britain and the establishment of Saxon and Norse kingdoms. Who is writing this history curriculum? Everybody needs to know where they've come from to better understand where they should go and not be kept in the dark (ages). What has the public transport capital funding for Wales been? I think it was £300 million over 25 years set about 4 years ago. Gee thanks Whitehall that's £12 million a year. And how much is Crossrail costing? Has anyone been to Nottingham, Sheffield, Leeds, Manchester, Glasgow, Tyneside, Reading and seen their mainline train stations? or their trams? anyone getting off at Cardiff central must be affected by the sqalour of the scene. We have one of the most famous buildings in the world next to a transport terminus/hub that would embarass any other capital city in the EU. I know that there are "complex arguments" about redeveloping the whole area but.......I don't speak Welsh and don't plan to learn soon. I fight the resentment that you described and not just because I live and work in Pontcanna, where civilisations(of a kind) are clashing but also because I believe that Welsh should be heard. Oh and those kind English and Scots who developed the valleys? You'll find that they probably had "owned" that land since 1090- something... and that they didn't start work down a mine at 7 a.m. aged 9 but enjoyed their wealth at leisure.

Oh Nathan get over the whole Welsh victimhood thing. The brythonic people conquered earlier people. They then Romanised and theres evidence the Welsh considered themselves "Roman" until the 7th or 8th centuries. They were then conquered by the Anglo-Normans. Its the process of history. None can deny that English and Scottish capital was the foundation of the development of South Wales. For the last 150 years theres been overwhelming positive contribution to the economy of Wales from membership of the United Kingdom.

And its not Whitehall that determines transport funding in Wales. It is the Assembly Government. There are arguments that Wales doesn't get a big enough block grant due to relative deprivation, but it gets more per head than England and nearly as much as Scotland. The problem relates to the increasing tendency of "old Labour" tendencies in Wales to reassert themselves by introducing pointless bureaucratic social schemes when whats needed is physical infrastructure and reductions in wasteful expenditure. A bit of "New" in the Labour of Wales would be a good thing if you ask me.

Nathan, I think you've got a somewhat partial view of Welsh history. Your simplistic dichotomy between rapacious English overlords and victimised Welsh proletarians is a bit inaccurate. Much of the industrial workforce of South Wales was eventually drawn from England - there was a net immigration of 100,000 into Glamorgan and Monmouthshire between 1900-10.

Equally some of the most notable industrial entrepreneurs in Wales were actually Welsh, think of David Davies of Llandinam (who developed Parc and Maerdy colleries in the Rhondda, Barry docks and the Lampeter-Aberystwyth railway), John Josiah Guest (the Dowlais Iron Company in Merthyr, Taff Vale railway), John Henry Vivian and his son Henry Hussey Vivian (Hafod Copperworks in Swansea), amongst others.

Re: public spending, as most informed observers know, Wales has had a relatively favourable budgetary deal over the years. I'm not sure of the latest figures, but in the late 90s public spending per head was 14% above the UK average in Wales (19% in Scotland). England by contrast was 4% below the UK average, some 20 or so years after the introduction of the Barnett formula which was supposed to have gradually equalised government spend per head of population across the UK.

WAG have made some counter-intuitive decisions about their priorities in recent years. According to the IPPR, the devolved administrations have chosen to give greater increases in expenditure to areas such as culture and agriculture in comparison to England, which has closed the gap in spending per head on health and education - http://www.ippr.org.uk/ipprnorth/pressreleases/?id=1839

Cambo Dai, I agree entirely about the potential that choice and competition (or contestability as the jargon goes these days) have for improving public services. Julian Le Grand of the LSE, who was a one-time adviser to Blair, wrote an interesting book on this a couple of years ago, examining the empirical evidence on the motivations of public service professionals, and what incentives could be designed into policy to maximise their effectiveness and efficiency (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0199266999/qid=1143675702/sr=8-2/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i2_xgl/202-6293460-4651852)

Unfortunately the approach to public services in Wales has been entirely conservative, as was cruelly shown up by the waiting times fiasco. A few intelligent civil servants in WAG do privately acknowledge that some of the innovations in England are potentially more effective, but they are afraid to speak up and challenge policy in Wales, and they would most likely be ignored by the senior officials and politicians anyway.

Urbano wrote:-
Wales:-
1. has never existed as a unitary state
2. has never had a head of state
3. has never had its own national system of law and administration of justice
4. Has never had its own parliament
If you check your history before 1284 you'll find that Wales did exist as a single entity under a single ruler (Rhodri Mawr, Hywel Dda, Llewelyn I, Llewelyn II etc.) and did have it's own system of laws (Courtesy of Hywel Dda). There wasn't a 'parliament' until Glyndwr called one in 1404. However, this was all a very long time ago; the early Welsh state was obviously incomparable to modern nations - the concept of the modern state was in its infancy. Nonetheless, to deny that these institutions ever existed is both inflammatory and incorrect.

However, this is all irrelevant; none of these claims defend your original comment that Wales has no national institutions. A foolish comment. What about the University of Wales, National Museums and Galleries of Wales, National Library (A copyright deposit library), National Eisteddfod of Wales (dating back to 1176), CADW, Welsh National Opera, National Orchestra of Wales, National Botanic Garden of Wales, National Assembly of Wales, Welsh rugby team, Welsh football team, etc. etc. etc.? There really are lots of them. Your statement was wrong and intentionally incendiary.

As to your claim that Wales has no history... er... May I recommend "A History of Wales" by John Davies. Alternatively, just try walking around any part of Wales with your eyes open.

Urbano wrote:-
So far as the Welsh language is concerned, it is the only thing -- in reality -- which makes Wales truly distinctive....
...Wales has - against all odds- retained its language. That is why it is of such profound significance. What's your problem with it?
I have no problem with the Welsh language. My problem is with policies that force people to learn Welsh if they don't want to or unfairly advantage the Welsh-speaking Welsh; a relatively small minority of the Welsh. I believe that the Welsh language is too often seen as the defining characteristic of Welshness; there is far more to being Welsh than a language that most of the Welsh don't understand. English is a Welsh language too and has been for a very long time. Are Dylan Thomas's English words not Welsh?

I apologise that this is all very off topic but I had to reply. In a desperate attempt to make all this somehow relevant I'll link to some info about the new glass-house to be built this year at the National Botanic Garden of Wales, a young, but nonetheless national, institution.
National Botanic Garden of Wales: News - New glass-house (http://www.gardenofwales.org.uk/en/news/12.html)
BBC News 15/11/2005: The architect with 'light touch' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_west/4437880.stm)
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41020000/jpg/_41020100_artist203.jpg http://www.gardenofwales.org.uk/img/library/TG2small.jpg

Anyway back to architecture. The new glasshouse makes me think of Kew, whether that is a good thing or not I cannot say. However, I don't think it has the beauty of the Norman Foster designed glasshouse.


BTW - I thought they'd renamed it Middleton, must of changed it back again whilst I wasn't looking :(

Hmm, just noticed this thread is approaching 600 replies spread over 29 pages, add that to the Swansea and Newport threads and I'm sure we deserve a South Wales metropolitan area forum (or Cardiff, Newport, Swansea metropolitan forum) hint hint :)

The new glasshouse makes me think of Kew, whether that is a good thing or not I cannot say. However, I don't think it has the beauty of the Norman Foster designed glasshouse.

It's supposed to reflect traditional victorian glass-houses, since it's being built inside the restored victorian double-walled garden. Thus, I think it can only be a good thing that it reminds you of Kew. Another spaceship would not be appropriate at that location. But I agree that Lord Foster's glasshouse is something a bit special.

http://www.bconstructive.co.uk/upload/314.jpg http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/southwest/nature/features/images/botanic_daffs05_400.jpg http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/southwest/nature/features/images/aerial_gardens400.jpg

They changed the name back to NBGW after their money ran out and they nearly closed down :D

Yeah I've been saying that for ages, we've got so many forumers now and this thread and the Swansea thread are easily some of the most active on the boards at the moment. We need to post more in the Newport thread though. Actually the practice is usually to close a thread and start afresh when it reaches around 500 posts, that milestone was hit about a week ago. We're gonna have to start Cardiff Developments 2 soon but I'm in the middle of putting together a Cardiff development summary so I dont want to start another thread untill I've finished that. That way I can start the Cardiff developments 2 thread with a summary of all of Cardiff's developments as the first post on the front page. Then maybe, just maybe ... Gothic will look at the new thread and see just how much activity there's been on all the Welsh threads and notice the number of Welsh forumers contributing to them and decide to create a Wales subforum .... Gothic, if you're reading this ... pretty please!! lol

As for the botanic gardens, the last I'd heard of them before this was when they were in such serious financial difficulty that they were in danger of closing. How are they doing at the moment? I assume that if they can find half a million for another new greenhouse then they must have some cash to spare ...

As for the botanic gardens, the last I'd heard of them before this was when they were in such serious financial difficulty that they were in danger of closing. How are they doing at the moment? I assume that if they can find half a million for another new greenhouse then they must have some cash to spare ...The garden was bailed out by money from the assembly government, Carmarthenshire Council and the Millennium Commission in 2003. Since then, some new stuff has been built (Including restoration of the original Victorian double-walled garden, restoration of the remains of the Georgian water park, a play area for kids made out of living willow branches, a Victorian-style maize maze and a deciduous woodland). When it first opened I thought there was a high-entrance fee and not much to see there - I visited it again recently and there's much more to it now.

Then, in November 2005 the garden received a lottery grant to build the new glasshouse after John Belle designed it for free as a gift (A Cardiff-born architect who restored Grand Central Station in New York, the musem on Ellis Island, the Rockefeller Centre, the Chrysler Building and designed a conservatory for the New York Botanical Garden).

They are looking for private firms to build a hotel complex or retirement village near the site in order to secure the garden's long-term future.

The garden isn't a Cardiff development so I guess it shouldn't really be in this thread but, without a Wales forum, there wasn't anywhere appropriate to mention it ;)

Haha, that doesnt matter. If it doesnt fall under any of the other Welsh cities just stick it in the Cardiff thread!

Welcome to the forums Christo Thanks - have been lurking for about 18 months; finally decided to say something :)

Christo

Blimey, you must have been bottling all that up for a long time. At least I can claim the credit for making you speak at last! Welcome!

We can argue about what was what in the dim mists of time, but my point was simply that Wales has not existed as a nation by having ,at any one time, a head of state, a Parliament, a system of law and a national system for administering it, all within defined boundaries. I consider these all essential ingredients for an independent nation. Wales has simply not existed as a separate nation in the same way that Scotland has.

By national institutions I meant -- and I think it should have been fairly obvious -- institutions created by the nation itself, rather than given , or consented to, by an outside power. As I say, on that basis, Wales has no serious national institutions. Even the Welsh assembly was the product of a Westminster act of Parliament . Some of the bodies you referred to us -- such as CADW or the Welsh football team -- I can't regard as national institutions in any serious use of that term (even if they had been created by or arisen from an independent nation).

What has, however, most definitely arisen from the Welsh themselves, and remained of great importance to them and survived through centuries, is the language itself. It is of limitless value.

You are presumably happy with our educational system which forces people to learn English: why not Welsh? I'm afraid far too many people say "I've nothing against the Welsh, or Welsh, but..............." It's like people used to talk about black people 30 years ago "don't get me wrong, I've nothing against them, but....." In other words, it's a question of attitude, and that really comes from the heart not the head. Basically, either you feel it , and understand it, or you don't

Given the difficult attitude of the English towards the Welsh language until recently, I think it's about time Welsh speakers were given a bit of a break, particularly by their own compatriots, in their own country.

Anyway, back to Cardiff and its developments, the area of Callaghan square next to Jacobs Wharf will start in July, I understand -- about 120,000ft.²

What has, however, most definitely arisen from the Welsh themselves, and remained of great importance to them and survived through centuries, is the language itself. It is of limitless value.
Much as I would like to continue this discussion I guess this isn't really an appropriate place to do so; if only there was a Wales forum ;)


Also, does anyone know anything about the current state of the new building project on the summit of Snowdon? Last I heard the new summit building might be scrapped because of lack of funds? It might not be the tallest construction project in the UK but it's surely the highest :D

I think that site is actually about 160,000 square feet, or atleast it is according to the masterplan on their website which I last checked several weeks back. I really really hope they've changed the plans to make that area look more urban and less office park. Its a shame they have that road to the antiques place cutting right through the site; is there no way it could be accessed from round the back near the entrance to the station carpark?

Urbano, I think you are confusing 'nation' with 'state'. The term 'nation' derives from Latin 'nasci' (to be born) and is usually taken to mean a group of people bound together by some common identifier/s. A 'state' is simply a political association which exercises sovereign authority within defined territorial boundaries. There are stateless nations (e.g. the Kurds) and multi-national states (e.g. Great Britain). Most people would say that Wales is a nation, but it is has no history of statehood.

On more relevant matters Lambert Smith Hampton has published its M4 cities report - http://www.lsh.co.uk/images/cms/M4%20Office%20Market%20Report(1).pdf You'll have to register to download it. The report notes Rightacres/MEPC plan to build "over 100,000 sq ft" at Callaghan Square with Landmark Securities/Robert Hitchings pitching in with a further 60,000 sq ft in the second phase of Fusion Point.

here is a better pic of city center

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b353/sanstiss/cardiffcopy.jpg

oh and here is caerphilly castle

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b353/sanstiss/caerphilly.jpg

Regardless of Wales' individual history, its citizens have played a great roll in the UK, and being united is what made England, Scotland, Wales and ireland control 3/4 of the world. Any news on when construction of the new offices at callaghan square will start?

i had a play about with photoshop, this is what cardiff might look like with glass needle, what do you think have i made it tootall, wrong place?

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b353/sanstiss/cardiff.jpg

That's pretty good, it appears to be in about the right place but it's a bit tall. The pinnacle which is the fecade overrun will be 107.57m. For comparison, the roof of Stadium House is 78m and it's spire extends to 120m so the tip of the glass needle should be something like 2/3rds of the way up the spire of Stadium House. Pretty good montage though, you've nicely blended the colours so it fits in pretty well.
The skyline looks a little sparse in that view but Meridian Gate will fill in one of the gaps and hopefully we'll see some more highrises planned.

Not really Cardiff related but it was already mention way back on post 242 (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=6587166&postcount=242).

From the Penarth Times last week.

Progress on Penarth Heights development

THE VALE of Glamorgan Council has moved to dispel fears of delays to the Penarth Heights project - and announced this week that a deal has now been struck with the developer Crest Nicholson.

Mike Harvey, cabinet member for Regeneration, Tourism and Leisure, said: "I am pleased to say that a deal was agreed with Crest Nicholson this week which will now be put before cabinet.

"We have had a number of difficult issues to resolve, all of which have now been addressed.

"This is very good news for Penarth and the scheme will have huge spin-off benefits for the area.

"We will now progress with the project as quickly as possible and the public consultation exercise will continue."

Penarth AM Lorraine Barrett said: "I am pleased to hear that a decision on this project is imminent and I hope there will be no further delays.

"I also hope the developer will give serious consideration to the concerns of the residents living in the area - in particular with regard to the impact on traffic, a community centre, the density of units and visual impact.

"Another big issue is social housing. My postbag tells me there is a desperate shortage in Penarth and this scheme is the only hope of improving that situation.

"It is vital it is completed promptly."

So from Febuary 2005 till March 2006 they've gone from naming a preferred contractor to striking a deal with them, still no renders or signs of work. An indication of the incredible pace at which things move in Penarth :|.

Sticking with Penarth and its inability to get anything done. The Headland Link project that they have had £7million of Assembly money to build linking Penarth sea front to the end of the Cardiff bay barriage is in jeopardy because the council does not own all the land it is supposed to be built on. Article about it here http://www.thisispenarth.co.uk/penarth/news/NEWS6.html
Doesn't mention it in the article but the council has already offered £50,000 for the land, far beyond what it is worth, as it is not suitible for building any property on. The words selfish, greedy twats come to mind :bash:

(We need a Wales sub-section for this sort of thing :cheers: )

(We need a Wales sub-section for this sort of thing)
Yes we do, pester Gothic about it! lol

Doesn't mention it in the article but the council has already offered £50,000 for the land, far beyond what it is worth, as it is not suitible for building any property on. The words selfish, greedy twats come to mind
That does seem a lot for such a useless (to any private developers) piece of land, I assume it'll be compulsory purchase and I hope it's quick, that headland link is looooong overdue!

Re. Penarth Heights, it's good to see this actually progressing (allbeit slowly). I'm surprised that this has been so slow though, it's really an awesome location. I would have thought developers would be desperate to get their hands on that piece of land, the views alone ought to fetch millions! I imagine the hold up is more on the affordable housing side of things though but even so I dont see why that would be too much of a problem, it's a big patch of land - simply charge the earth for flats with views over the Bay and put the affordable units behind those on the other (Penarth) side of the development!

"simply charge the earth for flats with views over the Bay and put the affordable units behind those on the other (Penarth) side of the development"

The difficulty with this is that planners are increasingly demanding "mixed" developments where affordable housing units are mixed within the rest of the development in order to prevent concentrated pockets of deprivation from building up. It makes design of such sites increasingly complex in order to mimimise the potential negative effects on value of the properties. Cardiff Council is unusual in allowing so many affordable units to be built 'offsite', so this has not tended to be a concern for Cardiff developments.

Yes we do, pester Gothic about it! lol


That does seem a lot for such a useless (to any private developers) piece of land, I assume it'll be compulsory purchase and I hope it's quick, that headland link is looooong overdue!

Re. Penarth Heights, it's good to see this actually progressing (allbeit slowly). I'm surprised that this has been so slow though, it's really an awesome location. I would have thought developers would be desperate to get their hands on that piece of land, the views alone ought to fetch millions! I imagine the hold up is more on the affordable housing side of things though but even so I dont see why that would be too much of a problem, it's a big patch of land - simply charge the earth for flats with views over the Bay and put the affordable units behind those on the other (Penarth) side of the development!

I'm not convinced about the Headland Link. As much as it is a nice idea, I think the distance is too great for many people to walk all the way along it to Penarth. And even if they do, currently there is not much in Penarth worth seeing except the pier.

As for Penarth Heights, I too wonder why it has taken so long. It annoys me that such a prime site is just being left like that, I think they should have just sold the land to a property develop who could do something really nice up there and used the money from that to replace the affordable housing they took away someowhere else in the town.

A RETIREMENT community described as a "cruise ship on land" is to be built in Cardiff Bay.

A site on the Clarence Embankment has been purchased by Holiday Retirement. The location was once part of the Royal Hamadryad Hospital.

Overlooking the waters of the River Taff and Cardiff Bay, the developers promise the project "will offer those in retirement a unique lifestyle option that is much more of a hotel than a traditional retirement care home".

It will comprise 120 individual apartments, stretching over six storeys. There will be a combination of studios and one and two-bedroom luxury apartments available for rent.

Waiters and waitresses will serve meals three times a day, and residents will have access to a gym, library and beauty salon. Up to 50 full and part-time jobs are expected to be created.

Mark Riddington, director of Holiday Retirement, said, "This is a revolutionary concept in retirement living in the UK. It represents a wonderful way to enjoy a relaxing, safe and secure retired lifestyle, where the bills and maintenance are all taken care of.


"Cardiff will be the most contemporary structure the company has commissioned to date."

The Welsh capital was identified as a primary location as it has a population of 44,571 people over the age of 65 but only 1,054 residential care spaces.

It wants to re-landscape Hamadryad Park and plant more than 50 trees. It also intends to provide 40 units of affordable housing. The Victorian hospital building at the front of the site will be renovated by the NHS and used by them as an administration and outpatients facility.

King Sturge in South Wales handled the marketing and sale on behalf of Cardiff & Vale Health Trust. Bob Croydon, King Sturge managing partner, said, "The Royal Hamadryad Hospital is a historic Cardiff landmark in the regenerated Bay area. It takes its name from a hospital ship for seamen which was originally moored in the river Taff, and the shore-based buildings date back more than a century

Welsh soccer chiefs are moving in the 21st century after
sanctioning plans for a £1.5m change of home."

A three-phase development, comprising over 90,000 sq. ft. of campus style offices The Neptune Court office development occupies a prominent site, fronting Ocean Way in Ocean Park

That sounds like a pretty good proposal and it's great that the old hospital building will be restored. It'll be good to have more of an age mixture living near the city centre. I'm guessing from the description that this is for pretty rich old people though! lol

A pic from their website www.holidayretirement.co.uk showing the development, not a very detailed pic and quite small but it gives an idea. A suprisingly modernist design for a retirement home!
http://www.holidayretirement.co.uk/imgGallery/regular/2549.JPG

A three-phase development, comprising over 90,000 sq. ft. of campus style offices The Neptune Court office development occupies a prominent site, fronting Ocean Way in Ocean Park
Sounds like some out of town business park which would be a shame, where is Ocean Way / Ocean Park?

Sounds like some out of town business park which would be a shame, where is Ocean Way / Ocean Park?

Ocean Way is that big road that goes from the magic roundabout (the one with all the road signs sculptures in the middle) past Splot market to the roundabout at the back of the steal works. There's been alot of office park and industrial unit style developments etc along the length of this road.

I've had a little look on Google Earth, there appear to be a fair few sites this could be on. But the images on Google Earth are a good 5years out of date for the Caridff area, and alots changed since then.

There is a lot of development at Neptune Court at the moment; its about halfway along this road in what will appear as a strip of vacant land between the road and some other building between the two big corners on Ocean Way. "Ocean Park" is the nice sanitised name of the East Moors between Roath Dock and Adamsdown.

The out-of-town office market is doing quite well in South Wales and the amount of still unused land kept back in previous local plans for office park development is still quite large so we can expect more such development for the foreseeable future around Cardiff Gate, Junction 32 (Greenmeadow Springs) and Cardiff had big plans for Junction 33 with a (train-based) park and ride, a new office park, and ultimately a site for a further 'urban expansion' in a similar style to the one pencilled in for between Lisvane and Pontprennau. The good office-park locations on offer in the Cardiff Area is probably one of the big reasons why the city centre doesn't seem to have attracted the kind of office developments other locations have. Theres a distinct lack of 'dense urban' office development in Cardiff. A shame for skyscraper buffs maybe, but jobs are jobs and for drivers I'm sure these office parks are easier to get to.

lol, the way things are headed if current trends continue it's not going to be people living in the suburbs and commuting to the centre, instead it's gonna be loadsa people living in the city centre and commuting to business parks in the suburbs!

Commuting patterns can be quite complex these days, and with the phenomenon of the "Edge City", especially in the USA, a large proportion of commuters travel from one suburb to another.

I spend part of my week working out of Llanishen which has long had substantial office floorspace slap bang in the middle of suburban north Cardiff. Unfortunately the local roads are wholly inadequate (which idiot decided to plonk the Inland Revenue up there?!)

Ok, this thread is getting HUGE so it's about time that we start a new thread to continue discussion in (technically they're meant to be closed and a new one started once they reach 500 posts, we passed that point ages ago! lol).

I've created a new shiny Cardiff Developments 2 thread complete with development summary here:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=7918540#post7918540