Right, thought it was time this little piece of architectural regret had its own thread! Im gonna venture into the scally pound shop haven this week and get some mroe pics. my reason for this post is that on every visit im stunned by the size of this building and the lack of investment which is far greater again! it is the first example of architecture that we see when we get off a train into Liverpool.

Lets face it, you notice the unimaginably bland holiday inn and NCP car park below, thank god st georges hall is to the right to restore any visitors faith in Liverpool's architecture.

There is a simple solution to this shopping centre (no not bomb it) all is needed is a restructuring. Cladding it is not the answer, this didnt work in the 1980's when some wise guy thought GREEN was the answer, it looks ridiculous! There could easily be a cut through this building, a new walk straight through which starts at Tesco metro and emerges opposite Lime street station, allowing visitors to be guided straight to what should be the heart of the retail quarter, church street.

This would unlock the building and would allow for greater use of the market hall, just imagine how impressive that space would be if the external walls were glazed instead, and the roof with the radio tower presiding above!

The following image is an example of how the NCP could be "masked" creating a new store unit, or indeed a number of new mixed use units, with great views and creating a busy building that sews lime street back to the retail quarter.

http://onfinite.com/libraries/539149/125.jpg

i will be producing some more images which illustrate this idea or any other ideas everyone may have, and with any luck the at times DAFT powers that be may stumble across this discussion, and after years and years of arguing and escalating costs FIX THIS S**T HOLE!

Teriffic idea, mask with new stores , similar principle to the apartments to be built around the MSCP at Kings Dock . Excellent image scouse, it could work, like the walk through idea to give direct access to Clayton Sq area.

Blow the damn thing up! Its so fucking crap!

Blow the damn thing up! Its so fucking crap!

Tut Tut, such foul mouth utterings from one so small
Try and remember , its is the sabbath.

When PSDA is up and running this place will have finally had it's day, along with the hotel. It will be the worst building in the city centre, and the increase in the land value will prompt redevelopment, with hopes for a tall hotel/residential tower with leisure/shopping element, taking it's cue from PSDA.
This should include space for a new public square.

I can foresee it all, this will happen soon after 2008....!

Nostradamus eat your heart out ;)

totally agree with last post, does anyone have any images of the St johns precinct monstrosity that they would not mind me borrowing to do some renderings????? I would love to be the architect on that site, nearly every side is a focal point, Lime street, the bus station and the views, ie, were the old foot bridge to the gyratory was. Then you have the shopping core on the other side.

It would be good as a conference and arena space I think, with the inevitable shift towards the paradise development, this place is going to become redundant and its only a matter of time before company's as big as Grosvenor henderson spot it and grab it by the throat!!!!!

hi
Its June the 18th 2005 Celebrating 1 year of Odysea

against everything this website stands for Knock it down and build a MSCP and a Park

There's already a MSCP. I like the idea of an open space, though it should take up only part of the plot. Shops. restaurants & tall office/residential towers should be included. Maybe a market square in tribute to the original St John's Market.

perhaps like Barcelonas amazing market

The worst thing about St Johns becomes apparent when you think about what was demolished to build it there.

Good shout yuppie.

The mancs have done something similar withe Arndale, it's still a depressing chain store mall inside but they're put new frontages and new store on the outside and the old tin box now has a streetscape.

Can any one tell me what happened to my the changing face of Liverpool ...Hotels

It 18th June 2005 Celebrating 1 year of Odysea

Its a sit off in I.t. today

ive seen the old photos
what a shame

SOME PICS

http://onfinite.com/libraries/540240/024.jpg

http://onfinite.com/libraries/259638/646.jpg

scouseyuppie -

I've been thinking along similar lines. The Precinct is the real gateway to Liverpool, and its Lime St frontage is by far its worst. I also agree that the 80s reclad only made things worse, adding redundant porches and random brick gables. I personally don't mind the hotel, which is a classic slab and podium design, but the frontage to the north of this along Lime St and turning the corner of St George's Place (I believe it's called) is a disaster. I agree with your idea of a building wrapping round this corner. I doubt that it could be big enough for conference facilities - which Liverpool Vision initially had in mind, before King's Dock came on the scene. Leisure use would be more appropriate and could tie in with and help revitalize the Royal Court. On the corner itself I would like to see something along the lines of the Information Tower (http://www.buildingsrus.co.uk/year_6/management/downs_variava/management_2.htm) designed by Downs Variava for Manchester. Scrolling message board and suchlike. There will be some room for such an expansion once the traffic flow along Lime St is reduced by the CCMS. An entrance that is easily identified from the station is a necessity.

Inside the Precinct is now too cramped. It needs opening up with e.g. double height malls, and the only way to do this that I can see is to take space from the MSCP. Unfortunately alternative sites for car parks in the Main Retail Area are few and far between.

I don't see much point in having open space here. St John's Gardens is right next door, not to mention Williamson Square, and what remains of Clayton Square (even Queen Square has sort of reappeared). I seem to recall reading that the property is in any case quite profitable. Your scheme has the advantage (over say blowing it up) of having some connection with economic reality. In the same vein, however, the main people who need to fix it are the owners - let's see a bit of the blame aimed at them, rather than planners, for once.

Good idea yuppie. I think it needs to be replaced, and I agree that cladding is no solution. The entire development, including the hotel and car park, has always been a compete disaster, and sooner or later it just has to go. I'd take that damned chimney with it. I took a first-time visitor to Liverpool out of the front entrance at Lime Street Station, and they were dismayed: St Johns Precinct and the hotel are quite dominating, and create a disgraceful first impression. A trained eye ignores them and only sees St Georges Hall, but visitors do not have trained eyes, they just look around randomly. I would take inspiration from the previous land use and designs when deciding how to develop.

I am very interested in the idea of markets within cities, and mixed and varied shopping. I think one of the things that will distinguish the best shopping cities from the rest will be variety, and while it's good to attract up market "destination" stores like Selfridges or Heals, it's also vital to develop and sustain hundreds of smaller, independent and specialist shops and stalls, and a mixed economy so there are loads of pound shops and cheap stalls as well as expensive ones.

Is there a retail master plan for the city? I think that with the department stores migrating ever further down towards the River, there is a pressing need to look at the future of all the main shopping areas within the CBD. Some roads may be fine, and I imagine that Bold Street should eventually be able to recover, and for different reasons London Road. But I don't see the central core of the shopping area, with sites like St Johns Precinct, Blacklers, Lewis's being able to survive in their current form.

I quite like the idea of a big traditional market in the city centre, and would like to see St Johns Precinct go back in time and become simple markets again: fish, veg, fruit, meat, flowers, tat etc etc. Such a market, on that huge site, would only need to be one story high, with natural lighting and ventilation. It could be a strikingly modern and simple building, but low-tech, with an emphasis on access, ventilation and natural light. No more fucking air conditioning. It's not necessary. People want to breathe when they are shopping. Wooden decking floors would be nice instead of bloody fake marble. A few large trees could puncture the roof and create natural shade above.

The roof would be the upper floor of the market, with open-air market stalls and open-air cafes and bars: lots of canvas, wind and sun breaks, decking. For the 8 months of the year when the weather is basically okay, such a site would be great, with an ability to walk around an open-air, car-free environment with hundreds of stalls. The area covered by the current development is vast, so potentially there could be huge open air market on the roof of such a development.

The whole thing should be simple and functional and look like a market. Markets don't work well when they are encased in buildings that are trying to look like shopping centres, they can't breathe properly. Markets should have multiple points of entry at street level.

Elsewhere I think theres a need to take out some redundant space. Sorry if it happens, but if Lewis's does go broke or close down, I think that building should be redeveloped for a different use, preferably it should be gutted and turned into high quality office accommodation. It's a nice sized building with large floors, so it should be possible to turn the upper floors into high quality office space, retaining just the ground floor and basement for retail. Perhaps the top floor could be residential.

A final point on retail, I am still really disappointed to hear about IKEA being allowed to develop road-access big stores in Sefton, and believed Liverpool City Centre should be one of the test-beds for one of its smaller city-format stores. Downtown Liverpool or the City Council or someone should appeal the IKEA developments in Sefton, and the City Council should entice them to a good site in the centre. The basement and ground floor of Lewis's would be perfect for that, especially with the direct entrance to Central Station (but obviously only if Lewis's go bust!). Failing that, when John Lewis move to Paradise Street, that site might be suitable.

Edited to add: how to pay for it? Replace the beacon with a real tall building, to house the hotel and also be the base of a communications tower. Something around 500 feet tall (including the communications tower on top of the building), a circular and graceful building - the hotel could take up 15 floors, 15 floors for flats, 10 floors of offices on the lower floors....). I cannot believe that people seriously believe that the current beacon is remotely acceptable as a landmark for a prosperous and stylish city, it isn't.

I think having Ikea in the city centre is a bad idea. For a start, Ikea stores have this terrible habit of sucking in lots of traffic. One time I went to the one near Leeds and there was a queue on the M62, going down the slip road, and into the multi storey car park. I eventually got to the car park (after 40 mins of grid-lock) and ended up driving back out again (-after getting stuck in there for 20 mins) and finding myself ensnared in yet another bloody queue. If y'all want my adive: Never go to Ikea on your Bank Holiday; it's the perfect way to make you get stuck in traffic for half the day, and come out with nothing- It may also cause you to become psychotic.

...Well anyway. The moral of the story is that Ikea will wreck the central road system. People have to drive there to get their tables, etc. home. It is the kind of place that breeds on economies-of-scale and therefore needs to be large. It is best placed out of town IMO.

About St Johns. One of the big problems with it is that it is commercially successful. So I don't know how much of an incentive the owners have to change it. Also, we can't just blow it up anyway. St Johns, to my knowledge, is privately owned. It would cost a lot for the state to buy-out and re-develop. Hopefully, something can be done to make the owners fix the place. The thing I hate about it is how low the ceilings are- it is so cramped and dingy. The whole place was really a big mistake, but has managed to do well in terms of low quality retail.

I know what LP means about the 'chimney.' I saw an old colour photo the other day of the Liverpool skyline in the 1980s. The tower looked terrible- it was all dirty looking (-a similar colour to the RSA building.) It looks much better now lit up and cleaned. The tower is kinda crap from an international point of view- but I think it does have a uniqueness to it. A lot of people, I imagine, would stop short of saying it looked crap because it is basically tidy- and is eye-catching and unusual.

Holiday Inn Hotel- those bastards should think about building a better hotel. Holiday Inn have some alright places dotted around- but the one at St Johns is horrid. It looks like a mass of 60s Pontins' chalets.

In an ideal world, the present precinct would be destoye; a proper market would be good. One that isn't monolithic. It would add to the variety of retail and could attract people the way Camden Market, for example, does.

it would be nice to demolish it totally and just ahve a public square with a 20 storey slender curved tower providing hotel acommodation on the upper floors and a department store and restaurant on the lower floors leaving the area looking cleaner and more modern and open than it is at present, having st johns with clayton square immediatly next door just makes it seem overcrowded and untidy

i think the market would be better placed in a new purposely designed building somewhere on london road as it as it would be better suited there and would provide a further needed development for that area

does anyone agree that Clayton square is starting to look dated and shabby??? they really have packed that place is was far more attractive when it was first built, all light and airy inside
now its ridiculously cramped!

Has Clayton Square changed that much in recent years? Because if it hasn't it's still a whole lot better than St. John's market. The place has always had some horrrible smell about it. I think the market should stay, but should be improved and made to look more pleasing.

I can't stand the market primarily because it's indoor. This means that you get a potent smell of raw meat which isn't a nice smell indoors. I'd love to see an outdoor market square like there was originally flanked with cafes and a few towers. As Blabbernsmoke pointed out, St John's is commercially successful and that's probably down to it being our only shopping mall. Of course Paradise Street will take some business away from it but Paradise Street will be trendy and upmarket. This leads back to a point either Toadboy or Awayo said a while back, that there is a demand for low market shops here in what is ultimately a poor city. Poundland is always busy from my observations. Sadly, I feel PDSA will push St John's even more down this path and it'll cater soley for such places, I know it's a bit snobby, but such a place should not be in such a large and central location. So a smaller mall could be created in a replacement development, along with the market and the new mixed use tower blocks I'd have.

. This leads back to a point either Toadboy or Awayo said a while back, that there is a demand for low market shops here in what is ultimately a poor city.

It was MrS who made the point that the city will continue to need cheaper shops such as many of the ones in StJohns. :cheers:

My apologies to Mr S.

st johns market would be great done in the same style as the one in lancaster. a building that looks great on the outside and incredibly functional inside. but i still think it should be moved to the nort side of the city centre, ie london road where it would enhance what is already becoming a great cluster of affordable shops and housing, in an increasingly attractive environment

does anyone agree that Clayton square is starting to look dated and shabby??? they really have packed that place is was far more attractive when it was first built, all light and airy inside
now its ridiculously cramped!

Just commercial logic working through to its conclusion - you have a space and fill it. Its still OK for a cup of coffee and listening to the Piano though.
I can't imagine how the extension of it a few years ago that was proposed would have worked. I think they said it would have come with 10ft of St Johns?!? :eek:

The Police HQ is where the next mall will go up imho.

clayton square is ok inside, though the outside of it looks like a dodgy suburban tesco's and doesnt really blend with anything, its only st johns that distracts from this.. how ironic, maybe clayton square could be reclad with stone or rendered in some way to help it fit in and look as good as the other buildings on church street

By the standards of what was going up at the time Clayton Sq was quite stylish.
we could have done much worse.

i still think it is, the inside only needs a few minor updates to bring it upto the 21st century its just the outside that i think is looking incredibly bland and dated, tho the shops in there are still quite cool but it will need a spruce up at some point soon to protect it from going the same way as st johns in terms of the level of retailers, especially after the met and grosvenor open

Here is an example rendering of how a wrap around approach to a possible conversion of St Johns would present a busy bustling addition to the space and take what is now the "arse end" of the shopping centre and create a focal point thats a little more befitting the gateway that is trying to be created on lime street!

BEFORE:

http://onfinite.com/libraries/544376/c96.jpg

AFTER???:

http://onfinite.com/libraries/544377/e6d.jpg

Good work Yuppie. It's great to be able to picture how an improved St Johns could look. Just one minor criticism- You left the Holiday Inn alone :)

Zod shudders. The precinct is cack. Destroy it.

why not cover it in ads ala picadilly circus but better, would create such a vibe...

Zod shudders. The precinct is cack. Destroy it.

Turn it into a prison immediately, incarcerating the chav's within, thus reducing the crime rate of Liverpool by 75% :)

or is that a tad harsh on the shopkeepers, and pensioners collecting their pension at the post office....!

Here is another idea for the St Johns centre site. It would see the demolition of the whole site with the exception of the Royal Court, Playhouse and the Beacon. The main thoroughfares have been realigned to allow the flow of visitors from Lime street to be naturally guided in the direction of the retail core of the city. A newer, sleeker hotel has been placed in the same position as the existing Holiday and is designed with a cascading effect, taking away that brutally rectangle look that the existing hotel has and allowing the tall buildings proposed for the lime street/skelhorne street areas to naturally flow into the lower cityscape. IF ANYONE FROM LAND SECURITIES SEE'S THIS, PLEASE, TAKE IT ON BOARD!!!!

http://onfinite.com/libraries/551986/d43.jpg

http://onfinite.com/libraries/551988/375.jpg

http://onfinite.com/libraries/551987/c24.jpg

http://onfinite.com/libraries/551989/81d.jpg

Who knows they may one day just listen.

The big mistake was spending £22m rebuilding the `Market` and `Precinct` almost exactly as it had been prior to that fire in the eighties......

:bash:

Land Securites had a hand in the Birmingham Selfridges so I guess they can do quality when they want to. Fingers crossed for the future.

if st johns had a clean up i think it would do very well. thats what makes liverpool different from other cities for shopping in britain. st johns has alot of indepent clothes and sports shops. which many other big cities dont have. go to manchester and their are lots of major high street retailers but not as many independent shops. i think johns is vital for liverpool as it offers a a different retail experience. i know its shabby but a cclean up and it could do well in my opinion.

I don't care what you say about St John's Market, it is an eyesore and the upstairs smells of fish.

if st johns had a clean up i think it would do very well. thats what makes liverpool different from other cities for shopping in britain. st johns has alot of indepent clothes and sports shops. which many other big cities dont have. go to manchester and their are lots of major high street retailers but not as many independent shops. i think johns is vital for liverpool as it offers a a different retail experience. i know its shabby but a cclean up and it could do well in my opinion.

Is Beatties model shop still there? I loved that place when I was a kid. Back when I didn't realise the rest of the place was full of scum and shite.

The owners of Clayton Squre own St Johns as well. I was reading in Estates Gazette (from a few months ago) that this company may invest in the two to attract those retialers not wishing to go to Liverpool 1 (-or unable to get a unit there.)

So watch this space.

Anyway, we might slate St Johns- but Leeds city centre has a 2 or 3 places like that. At least Liverpool has all the shite contained in one place.

the model centres still there but its not called beaties anymore. st johns isnt that bad. there are scallies in there but theres some good bargains in there. as i said a good clean up and some outdoor work would work wonders. there are some alright shops there . music zone, silverscreen, basics, 2 jd sports, footlocker,and loads of bargain shops like poundland, wilkinsons, woolworths and loads of girly shops. its unfair to say its just for chavs. i agree there alot there cos of the sport shops but just think how many people go to town to go to st johns.

I find it depressing, there's a fair range of shops and it's popular but it's the enclosed 'plastic' nature of the setting that stops me spending any time or money in there.

Imagine if that retail offering and market were laid out on a street plan? That's a real, tangible, underlying assets for a dynamic and buzzing city quarter (yes I know we have 73 quarters in the city).

L1 and the met quarter are more prestigious shopping areas but we must accept that there is a market for the shops in St. John's. People will always want bargains and things at a cut price. It would be good to have it done up at least on the outside. It is a dark place, it should have been designed with windows. Forgive me for being a smartarse.

I find it depressing, there's a fair range of shops and it's popular but it's the enclosed 'plastic' nature of the setting that stops me spending any time or money in there.

Imagine if that retail offering and market were laid out on a street plan? That's a real, tangible, underlying assets for a dynamic and buzzing city quarter (yes I know we have 73 quarters in the city).

Don't forget the Baltic 'Triangle', the 'circle' development, 'Line 1', Williamson 'Square'....there must be more too. There are more than 4 quarters in the city. That's why on the previous gay quarter thread I argued that there was mathmatically no room for gays in our city ;)

We need a Pentagon! :cheers:

Well technically if you combined The Met Quarter with the Mathew Street area and a few other streets, you have a Pentagon bordered by Lord Street, North John Street, Victoria Street, Sir Thomas Street, and Whitechapel. Top marks to anyone who can do a Hexagon or better.

St Johns was designed in the days when enclosed shopping malls were seen as the last word in urban sophistication. What St Johns lacks is the spacious interiors of later precincts, such as those in Leeds, which makes them more welcoming.

A lot of money has obviously been spent on the precinct since its early days and some elements of rather glitzy decor installed.

The glazed enclosure to the elevation facing Clayton Square was done in the '80s. The former design was a very 'modern' facade with slender columns - much like the outside of London Euston station. The original external finishes consisted of a white marble mosaic on the walls with black tiled columns.

The simplicity of the original design was compromised by all the additional features such as the vehicle access ramps and the ugly advertising hoardings facing Roe Street. St Georges Hotel (now the Holiday Inn) never had that much to recommend it, apart from the glazed restaurant facing Lime Street.

All the same, I think that we are beginning to see 60s buildings in a new light and, if the original design had been preserved, there would be less pressure for the precinct to be demolished now.

What St Johns lacks is the spacious interiors of later precincts.

It a shame though that even some of those later precincts are loosing their spacious interiors. Consider Clayton Sqaure when it first opened. Two escalators off to one side, and two bridges over a large open space that stretched from floor to glass ceiling from Ranlagh Street to Clayon Sqaure itself. Now with the addition of Virgin on one side, Internacionale on the other, and the three escaltors in the middle, the lower shopping area is so congested that I tend to avoid it now - going the long way round, rather than force my way through the crowds.

Remember the giant Christmas Tree that used to be right in the heart of the ground floor area? With new new coffee shop upstairs I'm not sure they have the tree anymore. Although Virgin and Internacionale are okay, the addition of the escalators was a terrible idea, and has really ruined what was once an extremely pleasant place to shop.

i think st johns needs alot more windows, that would make the centre seem less cramped and dim. also some new interior would vastly improve it. better ventalation too. maybe make some of the well known high street shops in there bigger.

if st johns had a clean up i think it would do very well. thats what makes liverpool different from other cities for shopping in britain. st johns has alot of indepent clothes and sports shops. which many other big cities dont have. go to manchester and their are lots of major high street retailers but not as many independent shops. i think johns is vital for liverpool as it offers a a different retail experience. i know its shabby but a cclean up and it could do well in my opinion.

Quite right A1,

Liverpool is in danger of going from `Shell suit` city to `Dior` too quickly.

Not everyone has mega dosh in their back pockets to purchase `bling.`

If `Chicken George` is still in there then we have hope. :)

St. John's Precinct suffers from one major problem IMO it contains a market. Many of the most successful cities and towns that I have visited have seperate markets where you go to buy food, flowers, odd nicknacks and stuff. I am not saying that it is right that St. John's should smell of fish, when you go into a French market they don't stink, even in warmer parts of France and with all the rich food on offer. I just think that a market should be just that and not an all singing all dancing mish mash that is St. John's.

If the precinct was ever re-developed I would like to see a self contained, stand alone market where you can readily say to an out of town visitor 'yeah over there is the market'

the arndale has a market. not as big as st johns. it doesnt smell like st johns. so there must be a way to separate the market from the precint.

The smell of fish isn't always a bad thing,what I want to know is who would get a blow job off this fella?? :D

http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/7758/beard3gj.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

The smell of fish isn't always a bad thing,what I want to know is who would get a blow job off this fella?? :D

Paul. You sick git!

That pic. is perverse. :)

Does anybody have pics of St Johns before the 80s reclad?

I have to agree with Doug about the market thing. It is actually quite difficult to find the market bit even after you've been several times.

Liverpool needs to have a very specific traditional market- and I mean a proper one where there is competition on prices. It seems in St Johns that a few families run all the stalls and keep the prices at the same level.

What is needed is a market like the Heritage on the old dock road (-is that still going?) but closer to the centre. It could have a Camden market type of ambience.

St Johns smells of fish because they have a fish mongers.- get over it.

I think St. Johns market will fight it out with Bootle Strand for the grimmest shopping centre in Merseyside. The Strand is taken over by aggressive single mothers with prams and hyperactive kids and St Johns has smackheads selling dodgy gear outside the side entrance.

There is a genius place in Bootle Strand called Kostarrs Fish Bar - it is like going back in time to the 1970s - 70s wallpaper, 70s drink machines, orange plastic chairs and a picture of Ken Dodd presenting a cheque to the owner in 1978 on the wall. This is the only place i'd keep of the strand, the rest of the place can burn in hell for all i care!

I went to town dead early last year for crimbo shopping and decided to go to Sayers to kill a bit of time before embarking on a free for all. It was weird, you get all the al biddies in there who are on 1st name terms with the staff and take their own cups in to get them filled up, I even got moaned at for sitting in someones seat. As soon as 9am went they were all off like a shot racing round the shops.

St Johns was ok for certain things though, I used to be able to buy good footy tops in the market bit, got a 1990 Napoli footy top Maradona era in there for 30 quid, they sell them on the internet for about 75 quid now. The guys running the stalls used to be able to get different shirts from Spain, Italy and Germany whereas the normal shops would just boringly sell Liverpool, Everton & England ones, I still have kept most of them to this day.

Although St Johns isnt everyones cup of tea it can be good for some stuff, not everyone wants or can afford to shop at Wade Smith or Giancarlo Ricci. It just has a grim feeling to it when you go in.

I don't think St Johns is bad at what it does- if you want bargains or cheaper shops, there are loads of them all in the one building. In terms of footfall it does very well- like it or not, it's quite successful and attracts a lot of people. A precinct with lower quality/cheap stores will have lowish rent- so I can't see it ever having a lavish refurb.

It's just so damned dingy inside- the ceilings are really low. The central eating area works quite well though. I seem to get lost every time I go in there- it's quite hard to find stuff becuase the layout was badly designed.

There are definitely some scary people in there. I know what you mean Matrix- some dodgy geezer tried to sell me a Lecoste jumper a few years ago at the side entrance.- Back of lorry incorporated.

I know what you mean Blabbern - I foolishly bought a Lacoste T-shirt off a smackhead there about 5 years ago - the logo looked more like a lizard than a crocodile. I never go to that cash machine by the side entrance either as it looks a great place for a mugging.

There also seems to be a lot of weird and backward people hanging about there, maybe Micheal Jackson got the idea for "Thriller" after going there to buy something.

it is this complex which best proves that the heritage obsessed literally walk around with their eyes shut. when they state that the wonderous vista of St Georges hall and the 'cultural quarter' greets you on exiting Lime St Station they are serious ...everybody else sees the arse end of a shopping precinct.

There are some great ideas on this threrad. I personally would like to see the precinct dropped and replaced with a complex of tall buildings that define some decent public space (and retail opportunities) in a cruciform. The idea of a skin of plasma screens and neon hoardings is a good one too. ironically this would be a 'heritage reinstatement' as the block facing Lime St used to have loads of neon signs...the provincial amongst us have described it as the Trafalgar Sq of the North.... stupid gits!

I know what you mean Blabbern - I foolishly bought a Lacoste T-shirt off a smackhead there about 5 years ago - the logo looked more like a lizard than a crocodile. I never go to that cash machine by the side entrance either as it looks a great place for a mugging.

There also seems to be a lot of weird and backward people hanging about there, maybe Micheal Jackson got the idea for "Thriller" after going there to buy something.

I always watch my back around there that's for sure. I daren't buy a jumper form one of those guys- I thought he would either snatch the money out of my hand and run off or sell it to me and then rob it back again a few minutes later for re-sale.

The weird and backward people are the in-breds. A lot of these feckless mutants were dumped in Runcorn new town and Windes years ago so Liverpool got off lightly. When I go home to Runcorn and walk round the shopping mall (-a better designed version of St Johns)- there are loads of wrongens frequenting the pound shops with their Giro cheques. Horrible.

It could have a Camden market type of ambience
Blab,
I like the Camden market idea. Hundreds of stalls, lots of interesting small shops on the High Street, great pubs and a river nearby - well, a canal actually, but I'm trying to make a comparison with Liverpool :)

There is far too much money being made out of St Johns for it ever to be flattened. It is a real blot. Holiday Inn should be ashamed of themselves with that vile hotel building.

I like the idea of a funky re-clad- that's probably the best we can hope for unless the owners can be persuaded to replace it all.

Eeeeh! Has anybody ever been in the Penny Farthing pub? (god, St Johns really is a bastion of all that is horrid!) I've always wondered what it must be like inside. The owners of that dump should be forced to clear up all the litter that builds up outside.- to think this is facing one of the world's finest examples of neo classical architecture!

Do they still have those steroid addicted fat bastard, shaven headed, bull knecked doormen standing outside the clothes shops in the Precinct? They make Cocky Warren Curtis look like a big girls blouse:)
eeeermmm, just kidding Cocky lad
:runaway:

Yes, I went in there 2 christmas' ago - it is uber scum, there was one big fat Fagin type guy sitting off there and all these smackheads kept coming in and dumping bags by his table and he kept saying "Ta" to every one. It was smoke filled and full of scallies doing their christmas shopping.

Me and my mate were in there and as we were quite tall and watching what was going on we got accused of being "bizzies" and were encouraged to leave. My mate bought a shirt there - some guy did a "deal" with him to rob a shirt worth 80 quid for 40. I saw some guy buy a Turkey in there and i've heard of people buying dogs in there.

It does look a dump from the outside - like a prefab a crane has dropped next to the Royal Court.

mabyw when the met quater and paradise are finished, the stupid owners of st johns will realise that they will need to raise the standards of the precint alot higher.
i like st johns beacon i think that kinda distracts from the shit exterior. hopefully something will be done to improve it.

mabye st johns will be improved i mean look at williamson square it looks realy nice. come on sort out this eyesore.

Yes, I went in there 2 christmas' ago - it is uber scum, there was one big fat Fagin type guy sitting off there and all these smackheads kept coming in and dumping bags by his table and he kept saying "Ta" to every one. It was smoke filled and full of scallies doing their christmas shopping.

Me and my mate were in there and as we were quite tall and watching what was going on we got accused of being "bizzies" and were encouraged to leave. My mate bought a shirt there - some guy did a "deal" with him to rob a shirt worth 80 quid for 40. I saw some guy buy a Turkey in there and i've heard of people buying dogs in there.

It does look a dump from the outside - like a prefab a crane has dropped next to the Royal Court.

LOL! It's everything I ever imagined it to be- even down to the "fat Fagen type" crime boss and the trade in turkeys and dogs.

You were brave going in there fella.

mabye st johns will be improved i mean look at williamson square it looks realy nice.

What part of Williamson sq are you talking about? The fountain and the street furiture ain't bad- but the rest is shite. It must be one of the worst squres in the world.

whats shite about it? the pavement has a good clean up and there are plenty of seats to chill on. and the fountain just makes it better.

whats shite about it? the pavement has a good clean up and there are plenty of seats to chill on. and the fountain just makes it better.

The thing that makes it shite is the stuff that makes it a square- i.e. the buildings around the edges. Lets see: we have St Johns dive, a white UPVC JJB that would look bad in a retail park; facing that we have scruffy shops that represent the arse end of retail. There are literally about 2 decent buildings (e.g. the theatre) but even they look like the sort of thing you'd see in Rhyl.

The pavement, seating and fountain are decent.

LOL! It's everything I ever imagined it to be- even down to the "fat Fagen type" crime boss and the trade in turkeys and dogs.

You were brave going in there fella.

Defo was brave!

I think if you went in there and sat off drinking all day you could get all your Christmas shoppoing done. Why use home shopping when you can go there instead? - Bet Littlewoods and Great Universal are shitting themselves now!

Blab,
I like the Camden market idea. Hundreds of stalls, lots of interesting small shops on the High Street, great pubs and a river nearby - well, a canal actually, but I'm trying to make a comparison with Liverpool :)

Don't mention canals, I'm sure British Waterways and the City Council will think it's an inspiring comparison, we could contine up from the Pier Head through a series of locks going up Lord St and Church Street. It will arch round into Lime Street, and end up in St Johns Gardens, which will become a basin for the barges to park in. Great. Imagine the tourism benefits, as Bill and Doris from Burnley cruise into town, with their cross-terrier Mazie, their long boat laden down with Happy Shopper tea bags, ASDA bog roll and tins of Chappie. I suppose they might pop into a pound shop in London Rd to stock up on anything their own pound shop doesn't sell.

Personally I think the Camden Market type of shopping is better suited to areas with a bit of edge to them, on the periphery of the central district, and so I'm not sure I'd see that site use in that unless no other retail users were interested. It's fine for students and people in their twenties, but a bit boring for everyone else. How many bongs and pairs of peruvian peasant-made yak wool slippers do you need once you pass the age of 30?

Don't mention canals, I'm sure British Waterways and the City Council will think it's an inspiring comparison, we could contine up from the Pier Head through a series of locks going up Lord St and Church Street. It will arch round into Lime Street, and end up in St Johns Gardens, which will become a basin for the barges to park in. Great. Imagine the tourism benefits, as Bill and Doris from Burnley cruise into town, with their cross-terrier Mazie, their long boat laden down with Happy Shopper tea bags, ASDA bog roll and tins of Chappie. I suppose they might pop into a pound shop in London Rd to stock up on anything their own pound shop doesn't sell.

Personally I think the Camden Market type of shopping is better suited to areas with a bit of edge to them, on the periphery of the central district, and so I'm not sure I'd see that site use in that unless no other retail users were interested. It's fine for students and people in their twenties, but a bit boring for everyone else. How many bongs and pairs of peruvian peasant-made yak wool slippers do you need once you pass the age of 30?
LOL! :)

That reminds me, I need to replace my bong. It's been leaking for ages.

Are we all getting tooo posh me thinks?

In it`s day the `market` was the bees knees......a chimmney tower with a `lar de dar` resturant.

If you look at the PSDA site heritage - it`s going to be missing a few prozzies and saliors....and a bit.

Still if you buy `Domestos` I suppose you get bleach....... :runaway:

There again I suppose we had `Bold Street` and `Sevvy park` plus some.

"Liverpool is the pool of life"

Most like still is.

I don't care what you say about St John's Market, it is an eyesore and the upstairs smells of fish.

It's the downstairs that normally smells of fish ;)

^^
And how would would a clean living gent such as yourself possibly know anything about that? :jk:

^^
And how would would a clean living gent such as yourself possibly know anything about that? :jk:

My 17 year old son told me.

I think it's a measure of just how much expectations have risen in Liverpool to say that Williamson Square is 'shit' and St Johns Precint should be flattened. I understand that there was a time when the Liverpool FC souvenir shop in Williamson Sq was seen as a sign that things were looking up! Walking around your beautiful city it amazes me how many stunning buildings (commercial and residential) have just been left to the elements. I know that money is short for many people in Liverpool but there are vast swathes of South Liverpool (Mossley Hill, Aigburth, Allerton, Woolton etc.) were money is not in short supply. Why aren't more people living in these suburbs investing in and developing the potential of their city?

They probably are, we just dont know where all these developers live. The city centre was also not seen as a place to live, (the postcode one must have to go with ones standard of living), so they choose the suburbs and let the centre go to rot. But not anymore, because a few daring developers took the risk to show how good the city centre can be, and with other developments and services following, the centre starts to become the place to live for a different kind of people. This awakens the not so daring suburb dweller to the fact that its ok now (safety in numbers, and the risk was taken by other people), to live in the centre and they start to buy up properties, and maybe even develop some new ones. This is the same as in any other city, where large parts were left to rot, but in Liverpool's case a lot of these buildings were left empty and not demolished for new developments, so we still have them now, and they are slowly but increasingly being converted to new use by developers, mostly from Liverpool and many from around the U.K. and Ireland

http://skyscrapercity.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=6166124

St John's 'is one of best' Nov 16 2005

By Neil Hodgson, Liverpool Echo

LAND Securities, posting an 89.2% jump in profits today, said Liverpool's St John's shopping centre is one of its best performing retail assets.

The London-based property group reported interim profits for the six months to September 30 of £1.18bn.

Chairman Peter Birch said: "We have had an excellent start to this financial year, exemplified by some notable events, including acquisition of Tops Estates, our first of a quoted company for many years."

The Tops Estates deal included Liverpool's Clayton Square shopping centre, adjacent to St John's.

Sarah Wiggin, retail portfolio manager for St John's, said: "Following our acquisition of Tops Estates in May, St John's and Clayton Square have both continued to out-perform expectations in a challenging environment.

"These two Liverpool assets are well positioned within the city to realise significant growth."

St John's achieved growth in car park income of 8.6%, despite the effects of Liverpool's Big Dig.

Bosses say good management of the mall space has increased income by 12.3% with a number of retail chains reporting outlets at St John's among their best performing national stores. The food court also reports higher activity with turnover increasing by 5.8%.

Work finished on re-covering the roof structure and refurbishing the plant room within a £1.2m budget.

neilhodgson@liverpoolecho.co.uk

Drat! so this means it won't be getting knocked down.

Drat! so this means it won't be getting knocked down.

Does rather mean it could be improved though :)

ST Johns was how ever one of the very first in the country - almost `historic` lol ..... :) :cheers:

No, knock it down.

No, knock it down.


it doesnt need knocking down, it just needs a good revamp, interior and exterior and mabye a few major stores in there.

Hmm, I think that the interior is functional enough, however the upper level where Wilkinson is does seem to have become a little deserted since they removed the main staircase at the end. As for the outside, I'm really not sure what you could do with it. Clearly with it making money as it is they might not want to spend loads of money on major changes. Therefore any changes outside may only be cosmetic. Probably wouldn't hurt though as there's still no escaping the fact it is truly ugly.

http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/thebusinessweek/regionalnews/tm_objectid=17096125%26method=full%26siteid=50061%26headline=liverpool%2dshops%2dmall%2dbucks%2dthe%2duk%2dtrend-name_page.html

Liverpool shops mall bucks the UK trend May 18 2006

By Sophie Freeman Business Staff

ONE of Liverpool's best-known shopping centres has bucked the national trend and seen its growth outperform expectations.

St John's Centre, owned by property firm Land Securities, has seen its mall income increase by more than 27% and its car park income rise by 11.9%.

This is the 10th consecutive year that car park income has increased, although parking charges were increased in the spring of last year for only the second time in the 10 years since Land Securities became responsible for the car park.

A spokesperson for Land Securities said: "Since we took responsibility for the car park it has undergone many improvements and people are now parking longer.

The car park has 626 spaces and saw in excess of 500,000 vehicles last year."

The number visiting St Johns dropped by 2.7% from 16.3m last year to just short of 16m for the last 12 months.

However, Land Securities footfall across the portfolio has shown an increase of 1.3% - bucking the national trend of a reduction of 1.9%.

Last year, Land Securities acquired the adjacent site of Clayton Square shopping centre when it paid £517m for Tops Estates' portfolio in May.

Sarah Wiggin, retail portfolio manager for St Johns, said: "St Johns and Clayton Square occupy prime retail locations in the city and have continued to outperform expectations in what is a challenging retail environment.

"Collectively, these two Liverpool assets are well-positioned to realise significant future growth with the anticipated return of shoppers that new retail developments will undoubtedly bring."

Detailed results for the Clayton Square operation were not available.

Land Securities saw its total portfolio increase in valuation by 15.3% for the year to March 31, 2006, from £9.4bn to £12.9bn.

Pre-tax profit rose a staggering 80.4% to £2,359.2m up from £1,307.5m in 2005.

The group's retail portfolio now comprises 30 shopping parks, 30 retail parks and 11 supermarkets.

The 60-year-old firm is the UK's largest stock market-listed company.

Land Securities' Merseyside portfolio also includes properties in William Square and Lord Street, as well as Aintree Retail Park.

sophiefreeman@dailypost.co.uk

I think it would be better to demolish this building instead of refurbishing it. The Radio City tower should be replaced by a tower of similar height. It could be replaced by a 50 storey tower. The Holiday Inn, NCP carpark and the Penny Farthing pub should all be demolished! This site offers more potential if it's completely re-developed. The Holiday Inn site would provide the perfect location for a 28 storey tower which would complement the Lime Street tower. Plus the new tower to replace the Radio City tower. Just imagine two towers either side of Lime street. What a gateway that would be!

Yeh one tower where the radio city tower, one where the car park/holiday inn, then the cheiftan one on skelhorne street and the lime street gateway, that would be good, but i would prefer a quailty development in this area rather than just another tallish one

also they need to get rid of that games arcade on skelhorne street.

Can you image to uproar if they tore down Radio City - it's such an icon.

St John's is fine, a little dated perhaps but nothign a facelife wouldn't fix. It needs more effort in the market, but check the markets thread for that. It needs a little bit of love, but there arn't many empty shops and it does work.

I'm also sure that The lime street gateway will sort out a lot of the approch problems.

As for the Holiday inn, actually thats one of my favourite buildings, but they I've got a soft spot for 60/70 architecture

[url]Land Securities saw its total portfolio increase in valuation by 15.3% for the year to March 31, 2006, from £9.4bn to £12.9bn.

Pre-tax profit rose a staggering 80.4% to £2,359.2m up from £1,307.5m in 2005.

The group's retail portfolio now comprises 30 shopping parks, 30 retail parks and 11 supermarkets.

The 60-year-old firm is the UK's largest stock market-listed company.

Land Securities' Merseyside portfolio also includes properties in William Square and Lord Street, as well as Aintree Retail Park.

sophiefreeman@dailypost.co.uk

They have invested very heavily in the past 12 months, having awarded 19 contracts with a value of £995M for construction contracts, so they have the finance to rebuild or refurb both St Johns and Clayton Sq.

Can you image to uproar if they tore down Radio City - it's such an icon.

St John's is fine, a little dated perhaps but nothign a facelife wouldn't fix. It needs more effort in the market, but check the markets thread for that. It needs a little bit of love, but there arn't many empty shops and it does work.

I'm also sure that The lime street gateway will sort out a lot of the approch problems.

As for the Holiday inn, actually thats one of my favourite buildings, but they I've got a soft spot for 60/70 architecture

"The number visiting St Johns dropped by 2.7% from 16.3m last year to just short of 16m for the last 12 months."

16 million visitors for a tiny city centre shopping precinct ..... can`t be at all bad or wrong......it is after all 3x5m plus for LJLA to put it into perspective per year.

Then add the existing Clayton Square, Cavern Walks, Albert Dock, Met Quarter and the (PSDA) L1 etc projecting into the future on top of what we have now.

Bold street to the Heritage Market and beyond.

Can you image to uproar if they tore down Radio City - it's such an icon.

St John's is fine, a little dated perhaps but nothign a facelife wouldn't fix. It needs more effort in the market, but check the markets thread for that. It needs a little bit of love, but there arn't many empty shops and it does work.

I'm also sure that The lime street gateway will sort out a lot of the approch problems.

As for the Holiday inn, actually thats one of my favourite buildings, but they I've got a soft spot for 60/70 architecture

Wormella,

I don`t believe that St Johns Tower/(the) Beacon, (resturant), Radio City Tower is going anywhere in the near future.

or even in the next fifty years.

:) :cheers:

and nor should it as most UK cities would even now give thier eye teeth for it!

and in the mean time we will build a few more.

Friend of mine sent me this 1963 pre St John Precinct image.
http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i171/doctorrobot/prestjohn.jpg

Thinking this one through, I wonder if there is a way forward.

Despite being in an absurd position, St John's Beacon is accepted by most if not all people. So, if you own that site, one thing you know is that a great big tower is acceptable there, indeed expected. However, you also know you basically have a huge concrete chimney with a tiny amount of commercial floorspace at the top. And, you know you have a tower that is already knocking on a bit, and that eventually you will be able to argue that replacement is necessary beacuse the old one is wearing out.

So, why not demolish the existing tower and built a proper, functional communications and commercial-use tower, perhaps 100 or 200 feet taller, and wide enough to permit a reasonable amount of commercial use at least on the lower stories, and again towards the top. You could rebuilld the existing market around that simple proposition. (Potentially, if the engineering made sense, you could utilise the existing core, and build around it and on top of it, but I've no idea if it's strong enough to take a structure built around and on top of it, so might need to be completely replaced).

A lovely 600 foot gleaming tower, with observation decks!

a skybar on the top floor like in tower 42 would be nice, but it would take up all the top floor with 360 views

if they knocked it down we wouldnt be able to get another tower of that size as EH would do their usual!

a skybar on the top floor like in tower 42 would be nice, but it would take up all the top floor with 360 views
Didnt they already try that?

[QUOTE=JUXTAPOL]The city centre was also not seen as a place to live, (the postcode one must have to go with ones standard of living), so they choose the suburbs and let the centre go to rot. But not anymore, because a few daring developers took the risk to show how good the city centre can be, and with other developments and services following,

True Juxty but not the whole truth, It was the second round of Objective One money from Brussels, that Liverpool city with the agreement of other metro boroughs ,that the city centre should have a high regeneration priority. Many of the early private developments received cash aid to help get schemes off the drawingboard, UNITY for example got £10M. With the creation of liverpool Vision we saw plans begin to emerge to cover the city centre, the upgrading of highways and public realm is costing £70M all public money.

The most "daring" of private developers must be BEETHAM, their tower and mixed use development really did get the show on the road. Grosvenor also must be praised for taking on the City Council as partners in the Paradise Project.

Now that developers are not frightened to come to Liverpool and propose massive schemes without putting out the begging bowel, they get a hard ride. its a crazy world

Hey Woodster, what's the context for your reply to Juxt on this thread? One from left field? I like it.

Thanks for the Lime Street pics, doc. Must confess that it doesn't look quite as great as I always imagined it might look! (Still prefer it to what is there now). Maybe it looked better at night?

^^
The old Lime St looks better from this angle

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/8116/limestfe5.jpg

Dont we just love that neon wall :)

Just a quick question that we have been having trouble with finding the answer.

St Johns Precinct had four pubs(?) in the early 80's, The Cunarder, Quinns, Milo's and one other that, if memory serves, was near to where the Holiday Inn entrance is now.

Does anyone know what the 'one other' is?

Just a quick question that we have been having trouble with finding the answer.

St Johns Precinct had four pubs(?) in the early 80's, The Cunarder, Quinns, Milo's and one other that, if memory serves, was near to where the Holiday Inn entrance is now.

Does anyone know what the 'one other' is?

Would that be `Maxims`...... and not to forget `The Moon` which was inside the precint (a downstairs - `headbangers` rock pub :cheers: )

I forgot to post this idea a few weeks ago, do you think it would be feasable to wrap around a few apartments on the back of St Johns precint or up above the car park, this would add a much needed new frontage to the `Queens Square` backside of St Johns.

I also wonder if a small apartment block coudn`t be located on the site of `The Square` pub in Queens Square if it is still vacant after closing a while back......

There must be several locations in the area that more apartment developments would help cement into place the every expanding shopping experience.

i dont think apartments is the option for st johns. I just needs a major shift of layout.

What is basically needed is to address the main directions of flow. The old fashioned, walled-in fortress shopping centres are dead, hence PSDA, and what is needed is to unlock St Johns as a centre and poor in natural light.

At the moment, the site does not draw through what is a natural path of visitors from lime st/london road, the centre acts as a huge barrier to church st and the main shopping district and this will be even more evident when the city's shopping habits inevitably shift towards Paradise st.

I think it would be best to redesign st johns as a more spacious building, break it up into a series of buildings designed by seperate architects to return the original street pattern that once existed and reposition or loose the hotel above.

The curent layout see's a multi storey car park square up to on of the worlds finest neo-classical buildings, that would be unheard of anywere else.

In short, draw a line through the site, connect it appropriately to Lime St to the east and church st to the west and this would allow a better flow and gateway to what s fast becoming a re-structured retail layout for liverpool.

And, should a big enough space be left provided for an iconic wrap-around structure for the st georges hall facing elevation, then throw the door open for a world wide competition to create a new landmark to represent how the confidence that created the hall is back.

Just a quick question that we have been having trouble with finding the answer.

St Johns Precinct had four pubs(?) in the early 80's, The Cunarder, Quinns, Milo's and one other that, if memory serves, was near to where the Holiday Inn entrance is now.

Does anyone know what the 'one other' is?

Seem to recall one called the Penny Farthing. Not quite sure exactly where it was though.

Just a quick question that we have been having trouble with finding the answer.

St Johns Precinct had four pubs(?) in the early 80's, The Cunarder, Quinns, Milo's and one other that, if memory serves, was near to where the Holiday Inn entrance is now.

Does anyone know what the 'one other' is?

There was also a pub with a rough brick wall and dickensian type windows in the precinct but I cant remember where or the name (schooner rings a bell for some reason). May have been in the bit that has been blocked off and went from Rotters to where poundland is now? Dont forget Rotters/studio 54 aswell. I think the one by the entrance to the hotel might be a Dance club that opened in Quinns but with a new entrance (instead of the Roe street one) eventually became an entrance to Woolworths but I may be wrong. Milo's was called the Moonstone but renamed after a lad who drank there and was killed in an accident with his girlfriend Alison. It was renamed Claytons and became a dance club for a while before becoming the Underground in honour of the famed Victoria street club

There was also a pub with a rough brick wall and dickensian type windows in the precinct but I cant remember where or the name (schooner rings a bell for some reason). May have been in the bit that has been blocked off and went from Rotters to where poundland is now? Dont forget Rotters/studio 54 aswell. I think the one by the entrance to the hotel might be a Dance club that opened in Quinns but with a new entrance (instead of the Roe street one) eventually became an entrance to Woolworths but I may be wrong. Milo's was called the Moonstone but renamed after a lad who drank there and was killed in an accident with his girlfriend Alison. It was renamed Claytons and became a dance club for a while before becoming the Underground in honour of the famed Victoria street club

The pub I am trying to name was where a soldier was murdered in the 80's.

The pub I am trying to name was where a soldier was murdered in the 80's.

The Star&Garter.

i dont think apartments is the option for st johns. I just needs a major shift of layout.

What is basically needed is to address the main directions of flow. The old fashioned, walled-in fortress shopping centres are dead, hence PSDA, and what is needed is to unlock St Johns as a centre and poor in natural light.

At the moment, the site does not draw through what is a natural path of visitors from lime st/london road, the centre acts as a huge barrier to church st and the main shopping district and this will be even more evident when the city's shopping habits inevitably shift towards Paradise st.

I think it would be best to redesign st johns as a more spacious building, break it up into a series of buildings designed by seperate architects to return the original street pattern that once existed and reposition or loose the hotel above.

The curent layout see's a multi storey car park square up to on of the worlds finest neo-classical buildings, that would be unheard of anywere else.

In short, draw a line through the site, connect it appropriately to Lime St to the east and church st to the west and this would allow a better flow and gateway to what s fast becoming a re-structured retail layout for liverpool.

And, should a big enough space be left provided for an iconic wrap-around structure for the st georges hall facing elevation, then throw the door open for a world wide competition to create a new landmark to represent how the confidence that created the hall is back.

That's a very nice plan.

Can you really demolish a block built on top of a main structure though?
Maybe you can. I suppose it's no different to what they're doing on Brownlow Hill.

I really hate what it does to the corner facing Limey.

Also accepting the destruction that went into the creation of Clayton Square, I think that "square" needs more space, or at least a less oppressive monolithic border than that side of St. John's presents at at the moment.

That's a very nice plan.

Can you really demolish a block built on top of a main structure though?
Maybe you can. I suppose it's no different to what they're doing on Brownlow Hill.

I really hate what it does to the corner facing Limey.

Also accepting the destruction that went into the creation of Clayton Square, I think that "square" needs more space, or at least a less oppressive monolithic border than that side of St. John's presents at at the moment.

They demolished Rotters on that very site without removing the car park belo if you remeber

Where was the Star and Garter exactly, was it near Rotters?