Oldham Thread [Archive] - SkyscraperCity

Martin G

March 20th, 2007, 11:40 PM

You lot of jesters completely miss the point. :| Most of the Greater Manchester markets may be scuzzy and peopled by scrotes as of now, but they used to serve a vital function to the community. I know it's truly sad that Oldham (and other towns) now have so much decline in their major town centre markets. But surely one needs to keep some sort of diversity in our centres rather than have ALL of them converted to upmarket places whose affordability becomes out of reach to a sizeable percentage of the populace such as good old cheap and cheerful cafes as opposed to ever growing numbers of "get rich quick and then close up shop and be taken over by another" cafe bars that all look the bleedings same (even Oldham Union Street is full of these now).

Manchester Arndale Market is case in point: the new revamped market opened amidst much trumpeting and back-slapping from the city council. Barely a year later and about one sixth of the "new fangled" / "designer" stalls have been replaced by others or closed already. That just shows that retail is so transitory and cut throat nowadays that even traditionally established market traders can't hold on to their business for much longer due to a constantly shifting demographic. I would much prefer this level of diversity and choice in my town or city centre than be confronted with streets and streets of identikit retailers, bars and cafes that all serve the same thing over and over....much as I would also hate it too if all we had on the other hand to show for in a declining town centre were endless rows of cheap pound shops and dodgy chav-hangouts (fast food joints, video/DVD rental shops and suzzy newsagents) as far as the eye could see. It's all about getting a balance I suppose, but now most town centres largely seem to lack even this.

And no, I don't actually spend all my life trawling markets at all. It's just good to have the buzz of a decent sized one in the vicinity, as long as it is well run, supported and promoted by the powers that be. There is nothing sadder than a derelict end of the pier dive that is a pale shadow of its former self and as we know there are already too many of these such places awaiting the final nail to be knocked into its coffin lid (see also Beswick, Grey Mare Lane, Gorton and Harpurhey).

As mentioned earlier, the only reason I still "do" Oldham nowadays is that fantastic baked potato van that's parked outside the Spindles mall on High Street. That place does jacket spuds of legendary size. :yes:

leebuk2005

August 3rd, 2007, 01:18 AM

Isaac Newell

August 3rd, 2007, 03:06 PM

There has been alot of arguing lately between Oldham MBC and Rochdale MBC over the metrolink. What has happened is that although the two towns have fought togeather for the metrolink extention Oldham has come of as a bit of a traitor and gone behind Rochdales back. Oldham MBC backs new plans that mean Metrolink wont run any further than shaw but will run down Union street. This has got politicians at Rochdale all heated.

Rochdale doesn't need Metrolink. It has a good quick rail service to Manchester.
It needs to knock down that horrible bus station and shopping centre and relocate to the railway station.
There's loads of land around there.

All that is needed is a train From Manchester to Shaw via Rochdale,

something like this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_aP5zUPwxk&mode=related&search=
a diesel and some coaches geared up for commuters.

Cheap and do-able

scproductions

August 3rd, 2007, 04:45 PM

Oldham has had a hell of a large Asian-Muslim population which is still rapidly expanding...

therefore investment in Oldham is sure to take off extremely soon.

scproductions

August 3rd, 2007, 04:54 PM

Rochdale doesn't need Metrolink. It has a good quick rail service to Manchester.
It needs to knock down that horrible bus station and shopping centre and relocate to the railway station.
There's loads of land around there.

All that is needed is a train From Manchester to Shaw via Rochdale,

something like this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_aP5zUPwxk&mode=related&search=
a diesel and some coaches geared up for commuters.

Cheap and do-able

i use the shopping centre and bus station quite often... theyre hardly horrible. both are kept in good condition and fairly new.

i live in oldham and i would much rather live in north manchester than south manchester.

south manchester is densely populated and always busy with house prices (amongst other things) far higher than they are in northern manchester. you could get a house twice as big in north manchester for half the price of one in south manchester.

i think people choose to live in south manchester over north manchester for snobbery basically. but i wouldn't choose to live there. i have a lovely 4 bedroom house with 3 gardens on a nice estate with a small stream running through it in north manchester. a large retail park is a mere 5 minute walk away from me along with a large playing field, park and motorway. manchester is only a 15 minute train journey away as is oldham on the bus. if i wanted a similar lifestyle in south manchester then i would have to be a millionnaire.

leebuk2005

August 3rd, 2007, 10:43 PM

Oldham has had a hell of a large Asian-Muslim population which is still rapidly expanding...

therefore investment in Oldham is sure to take off extremely soon.
I dont see any investmant. Its been hard enough trying to get Metrolink for the past decade and we still dont have it. I dont think there is that many muslims if you count in the whole borough. There are large and predomanantly white areas of Failsworth, Hollinwood, Chadderton, Shaw, Royton and many more. This is just a steriotypical view and the asian population is actualy decreasing.

scproductions

August 4th, 2007, 12:33 AM

I dont see any investmant. Its been hard enough trying to get Metrolink for the past decade and we still dont have it. I dont think there is that many muslims if you count in the whole borough. There are large and predomanantly white areas of Failsworth, Hollinwood, Chadderton, Shaw, Royton and many more. This is just a steriotypical view and the asian population is actualy decreasing.

i definately wouldnt say that thew muslim population is decreasing. if anything i'd say it was growing faster than ever.

I REALLY dont want to sound racist here but I used to live in Chadderton and eventually we (along with the rest of the white population in that area) moved away to a different area due to the sheer number of muslims that moved there.

My friends lives in another area of Chadderton and now they are moving away due to more muslims moving into that area.

I can think of at least 4 formally white christian high schools and at least 8 formally christian white primary schools which are now 100% asian-muslim schools.

There are definately more and more muslim-asians coming into oldham. Many of which come from the next generation, as the average number of children delivered to a muslim-asian family is apporoximatly 3.5 as opposed to 1.5 from white-british (dont as me why they are .5 as i also think thats stupid!) which just shows that their numbers will increase no matter what.

Again I don't want to sound racist... its just the reality of it.

nerd

August 4th, 2007, 01:00 AM

i definately wouldnt say that thew muslim population is decreasing. if anything i'd say it was growing faster than ever.

I REALLY dont want to sound racist here but I used to live in Chadderton and eventually we (along with the rest of the white population in that area) moved away to a different area due to the sheer number of muslims that moved there.

My friends lives in another area of Chadderton and now they are moving away due to more muslims moving into that area.

I can think of at least 4 formally white christian high schools and at least 8 formally christian white primary schools which are now 100% asian-muslim schools.

There are definately more and more muslim-asians coming into oldham. Many of which come from the next generation, as the average number of children delivered to a muslim-asian family is apporoximatly 3.5 as opposed to 1.5 from white-british (dont as me why they are .5 as i also think thats stupid!) which just shows that their numbers will increase no matter what.

Again I don't want to sound racist... its just the reality of it.

indeed the British Muslim population is growing fast - and Oldham is much the better for it. Muslims in Oldham are - on average - healthier, better educated and harder working than than their "Christian British" neighbours. Ten years ago, Oldham was in a state of near economic collapse - now it is beginning to boom again (in a modest way); and the investment of labour and money from the British Muslim communities are largely the reasons.

leebuk2005

August 4th, 2007, 01:06 AM

I can understand as this is happening around Block lane area but i realy couldnt see many asian people near Failsworth or Limeside. But i have notice in recent years you dont see as many asian people in the town centre. 2 years ago there used to be gangs of up to 20 young asian men woundering round spindles which put of alot of people coming Oldham. I agree with you, and people may say im racist for saying this but alot of people just dont like mixing with asians.

skyhigh247

August 4th, 2007, 04:37 AM

I don't think Oldham Council work hard enough to improve the public opinion of Oldham and to attract quality businesses into the area. Oldham was the centre of the world for textile manufacturing and yet you'd never guess that now. It looks like any other nobody town which is such a shame.

First dropping endless bus routes to the area doesn't help in pushing people away. I can't believe how few buses there are to Saddleworth either. You used to be able to get buses to Delph, Dobcross and Uppermill direct from Manchester up until late 7 days a week all year round, not anymore. If you don't have a car you're stuck. Limited buses to Oldham too. When First took over, they cancelled over 80 routes in the first 3 months. Add that to all the others since and no wonder people don't visit the smaller towns. Before First took over, the private company GM Buses were far better, not perfect but far better. Oldham needs to work hard with big ambitions. People with small or no ambitions become losers in life. Maybe they should get rid of that Labour council. They are not achieving any where near what they could. Who knows??

scproductions

August 4th, 2007, 05:30 AM

indeed the British Muslim population is growing fast - and Oldham is much the better for it. Muslims in Oldham are - on average - healthier, better educated and harder working than than their "Christian British" neighbours. Ten years ago, Oldham was in a state of near economic collapse - now it is beginning to boom again (in a modest way); and the investment of labour and money from the British Muslim communities are largely the reasons.

any evidence? or is that just opinion?

again without sounding racist... the white areas of oldham are much more well kept and provide a better standard of living than those i've seen in the asian areas (based on first hand experiences).

monkey_rat

August 4th, 2007, 12:00 PM

Oldham has had a hell of a large Asian-Muslim population which is still rapidly expanding...

therefore investment in Oldham is sure to take off extremely soon.

I fail to see the logic...

scproductions

August 4th, 2007, 03:21 PM

I fail to see the logic...

again without sounding racist!!

the overall trend in oldham is that muslim-asian projects seem to get priority over white british projects.

for example funding was provided by the council for a £6,000,000 mosque (there is no way they would have done that for a church i tell u now!). The radclyffe high school was chosen over north chadderton high school for a brand new school (radclyffe being 84% muslim-asian and north chadderton being 3% muslim-asian). An asian-muslim primary school was also rebuilt over a white british school (which ironically is now 93% muslim-asian!).

There are other instances like this but I'd here all day.

Again I'm not being racist... just realistic!

leebuk2005

August 4th, 2007, 07:59 PM

indeed the British Muslim population is growing fast - and Oldham is much the better for it. Muslims in Oldham are - on average - healthier, better educated and harder working than than their "Christian British" neighbours. Ten years ago, Oldham was in a state of near economic collapse - now it is beginning to boom again (in a modest way); and the investment of labour and money from the British Muslim communities are largely the reasons.

BULL SHIT ive never heard so much crap in my life. Go to Royton, Shaw, Chadderton, Failsworth or Some parts of Hollinwood and then go to Glodwick, Werneth, Coldhurst or westwood and see the difference.

monkey_rat

August 5th, 2007, 12:34 AM

again without sounding racist!!

the overall trend in oldham is that muslim-asian projects seem to get priority over white british projects.

for example funding was provided by the council for a £6,000,000 mosque (there is no way they would have done that for a church i tell u now!). The radclyffe high school was chosen over north chadderton high school for a brand new school (radclyffe being 84% muslim-asian and north chadderton being 3% muslim-asian). An asian-muslim primary school was also rebuilt over a white british school (which ironically is now 93% muslim-asian!).

There are other instances like this but I'd here all day.

Again I'm not being racist... just realistic!

mm...what 'white british' projects get overlooked? and with the church/mosque thing, christianity is dying out in britain, not because of immigrants or whatever, but because families who have lived here for generations just have no interest in religion anymore, whereas some recent immigrants come from more religious backgrounds, hence the need for mosques, but not for churches.

leebuk2005

August 5th, 2007, 11:12 PM

mm...what 'white british' projects get overlooked? and with the church/mosque thing, christianity is dying out in britain, not because of immigrants or whatever, but because families who have lived here for generations just have no interest in religion anymore, whereas some recent immigrants come from more religious backgrounds, hence the need for mosques, but not for churches.

Maybe the Asian Community Centre in Westwood what was built not long back and all the terrace houses in asian areas that have been nocked down and are being replaced by brand new 4 and 5 bedroom houses. When some of the mainly white council estate which have been badley maintained for decades get shoddy roofing and dodgy boilers that squeel when you turn a hot tap on all bodged by cowboy builders. There is a great unfairness in Oldham but as soon as you open your mouth your branded a racist. Jst look at how many new schools, Medical centres and other community facilities are being and have been built for the asian community. This is why lots of people get pissed of and go and vote for the likes of the BNP because labour doesnt care about them.

cottonopolis

August 6th, 2007, 12:01 AM

indeed the British Muslim population is growing fast - and Oldham is much the better for it. Muslims in Oldham are - on average - healthier, better educated and harder working than than their "Christian British" neighbours. Ten years ago, Oldham was in a state of near economic collapse - now it is beginning to boom again (in a modest way); and the investment of labour and money from the British Muslim communities are largely the reasons.

Utter utter utter U.T.T.E.R BOLLOCKS!!! Muslims are on average LESS educated and LESS likely to be in work. Seriously go do some fact checking and not just spout out your bleedin heart liberal bull shit.. :ohno: :bash:

www.migrationwatch.co.uk
http://www.cis.org/
www.statistics.gov.uk

scproductions

August 6th, 2007, 12:14 AM

Maybe the Asian Community Centre in Westwood what was built not long back and all the terrace houses in asian areas that have been nocked down and are being replaced by brand new 4 and 5 bedroom houses. When some of the mainly white council estate which have been badley maintained for decades get shoddy roofing and dodgy boilers that squeel when you turn a hot tap on all bodged by cowboy builders. There is a great unfairness in Oldham but as soon as you open your mouth your branded a racist. Jst look at how many new schools, Medical centres and other community facilities are being and have been built for the asian community. This is why lots of people get pissed of and go and vote for the likes of the BNP because labour doesnt care about them.

i live in oldham too and i have to say that i do agree with you.

i think the main problem is intergration... asians just dont want to do it.

the vast majority of people in britain dont have any problems with black people, or chinese, or polish, or ukranian... its just the muslim-asians. Thats a HELL of a coincidence.

They turn it around on us and make out that it is we who do not wish to have anything to do with them, but i dont believe that. Modern Britain and America are famous for accepting people of all race and cultures... but i just feel we cannot do that with asians.

We invite them to gatherings within the local community... but they dont attend.

My child invited his asian friend over to our house... but his parents banned it.

My friend was invited to her asian friend's house... but they only allowed her to enter if she wore a full veil.

Within schools they decide not to enter ANY extra curricular activities.

When police arrest asians for speeding or littering the asian people condem the police for "being racist".

Asians refuse to follow any british fashion.

Asians are generally scruffy and disrespectful (which can be seen whenever you walk through ANY asian estate)/

I just think its VERY hard for us to accept them when they announce (on a regular basis) that they are completely against western society and culture... even though they live in a western country.

I HATE how their culture says that women are inferior to men. I think it is unbelievably disrespectful when asian women wear a veil as i find it to be a symbol of segregation and i feel it COMPLETELY disrespects the women of britain who fought (to the death) for equal rights amongst men and women over the past hundred years.

I hate to sound racist, but when you live in Oldham (or any asian town) and you experience these things on a daily basis you begin to become sick of it.

leebuk2005

August 6th, 2007, 12:30 AM

this thread is going to be locked sooner or later.^^ I do agree

monkey_rat

August 6th, 2007, 12:55 AM

i think the main problem is intergration... asians just dont want to do it.

the vast majority of people in britain dont have any problems with black people, or chinese, or polish, or ukranian... its just the muslim-asians. Thats a HELL of a coincidence.

bollocks lad. division if anything is down to class not race. I am friends with a fair few people of asian background and I take offence at what you've said here. have you made a personal effort to 'integrate' with any asian people? what are you basing these statements on? 'kin hell.

Within schools they decide not to enter ANY extra curricular activities.

??? at my school 90% of pupils couldn't be arsed with extra curricular activities because they are kids. i.e. lazy, again its irrespective of race.

Asians refuse to follow any british fashion.

again bollocks. I know plenty of asian people who listen to fashionable music, wear fashionable clothes, watch big brother etc. Do you actually know any asian people personally or do you just base your opinions on what you read in the daily mail?

Asians are generally scruffy and disrespectful (which can be seen whenever you walk through ANY asian estate)/[/I]

seriously lad this is the point where it starts to get beyond a joke. what is your opinion of predominantly white council estates?

I just think its VERY hard for us to accept them when they announce (on a regular basis) that they are completely against western society and culture... even though they live in a western country.

who are 'they'?

I HATE how their culture says that women are inferior to men. I think it is unbelievably disrespectful when asian women wear a veil as i find it to be a symbol of segregation and i feel it COMPLETELY disrespects the women of britain who fought (to the death) for equal rights amongst men and women over the past hundred years.

fhm. loaded. nuts. britain still ain't that enlightened mate.

I hate to sound racist, but when you live in Oldham (or any asian town) and you experience these things on a daily basis you begin to become sick of it.

as I mentioned I'm originally from a so-called 'asian town' and don't experience any of these phenomena you mention. I appreciate that race issues are far greater in oldham than in blackburn, and your views are clearly a product of this, but you're displaying an astonishing amount of ignorance, and that is unforgivable.

leebuk2005

August 6th, 2007, 01:10 AM

^^ maybe your ignorant and don't accept other peoples view but dismiss them

monkey_rat

August 6th, 2007, 01:15 AM

If dismissing sweeping statements about an entire race makes me ignorant then so be it.

leebuk2005

August 6th, 2007, 01:20 AM

its not a race thing its about culture.

Isaac Newell

August 6th, 2007, 11:01 AM

I REALLY dont want to sound racist here but I used to live in Chadderton and eventually we (along with the rest of the white population in that area) moved away to a different area due to the sheer number of muslims that moved there.

My friends lives in another area of Chadderton and now they are moving away due to more muslims moving into that area.

i think the main problem is intergration... asians just dont want to do it.

:)

Oldham's doomed.

Cosmo Disney

August 6th, 2007, 11:18 AM

Utter utter utter U.T.T.E.R BOLLOCKS!!! Muslims are on average LESS educated and LESS likely to be in work. Seriously go do some fact checking and not just spout out your bleedin heart liberal bull shit.. :ohno: :bash:

www.migrationwatch.co.uk
http://www.cis.org/
www.statistics.gov.uk

I too would be interested in seeing a source for this statement nerd. This is the second time you have posted similar comments, but all the data I have been able to find contradicts your position.

heatonparkincakes

August 6th, 2007, 02:21 PM

As this post probably indicates, Oldham isnt really part of Mancheeter. Certainly not in the city's spirit of progressive, enlightened and tolerant thinking.

Indeed some of the people on there, certainly arent even part of the 21st century, never mind a bus ride away.

I can tell the school kids are on their hols

skyhigh247

August 6th, 2007, 09:48 PM

skyhigh247

August 6th, 2007, 09:49 PM

As this post probably indicates, Oldham isnt really part of Mancheeter.

That's true, it's Greater Manchester.

Cherguevara

August 6th, 2007, 10:38 PM

However, today there are too many immigrants coming in and that includes any immigrant from any country. This is only an island and per square mile, we are officially one of 'the' most densely populated countries in the world. Not only time to close the gates, but time to offload some also.

Offload 'them' where?

There are five million British born people living abroad and many more joining them. Oldham is one of the many northern towns rapidly loosing population, and you want to force out some of its remaining residents who were largely born and brought up there!? It beggars belief.

Immigration does reduce community cohesiveness, but it is also economically beneficial. Immigrants doing the underpayed work that no one else wants to do is one of the reasons our economy has been consistently successful for the past 10 years.

So the answer is clearly not bar immigration, or send anyone back anywhere, but to pursue policies that speed the process of community integration, and tackle the social exclusion of the 'indigenous' population so that people don't feel that there problems are being disregarded.

skyhigh247

August 6th, 2007, 10:52 PM

Offload 'them' where?

There are five million British born people living abroad and many more joining them. Oldham is one of the many northern towns rapidly loosing population, and you want to force out some of its remaining residents who were largely born and brought up there!? It beggars belief.

Immigration does reduce community cohesiveness, but it is also economically beneficial. Immigrants doing the underpayed work that no one else wants to do is one of the reasons our economy has been consistently successful for the past 10 years.

So the answer is clearly not bar immigration, or send anyone back anywhere, but to pursue policies that speed the process of community integration, and tackle the social exclusion of the 'indigenous' population so that people don't feel that there problems are being disregarded.

Firstly when talking about the over population and immigrants for return, i was talking about the population of Britain as a whole. As far as immigrants doing the jobs we don't want to do, this is not true. Only a small proportion are filling these jobs. Many of our workers are having to find work abroad, because immigrants have taken their jobs. The NHS is a good example. Builders are now facing this problem as have been featured on BBC Working Lunch. Foreign workers can be paid less than the usual going rate for British workers, but still a lot more than the immigrants are used to. Many lines of work are being affected. Also, it was obvious i wasn't referring to people who are born in this country to leave and that is a lame comment.

If you checkout Working Lunch, Newsnight, Panorama, Dispatches etc then you would know this is fact and not tabloid hysteria. Even Sir Digby Jones has criticised the government for ignoring this too!

skyhigh247

August 6th, 2007, 11:25 PM

One point to add. I think people can easily use the race card when people are not really making a racist comment, though i do agree people need to tread carefully.

Cherguevara

August 6th, 2007, 11:40 PM

Firstly when talking about the over population and immigrants for return, i was talking about the population of Britain as a whole. As far as immigrants doing the jobs we don't want to do, this is not true. Only a small proportion are filling these jobs.

It is. I've spoken to many Polish people willing to travel to northern Scotland for only the chance of getting a crap job in a service industry in an underpopulated area, or do other things that no sensible person would consider doing for work.

Many of our workers are having to find work abroad, because immigrants have taken their jobs. The NHS is a good example.

No it isn't. It's a terrible example. There was a long term shortage of trained doctors and nurses, so the government offered visas for them to come here. Then the government started to fund a sustainable level of medical degrees, which people graduated from just as the NHS was undergoing a cash flow problem. That's not immigrations fault but the governments mistimed NHS 'moderisation' prgramme. If we hadn't had immigrant clinicians we'd have had a much poorer health service for the last 40 years.

Builders are now facing this problem as have been featured on BBC Working Lunch. Foreign workers can be paid less than the usual going rate for British workers, but still a lot more than the immigrants are used to.

How much of this is simply because there is a widespread (and partially justified) belief that British trademen are untrustworthy cowboys. If they want their business back do the work properly and charge a fair price for it.

Also, it was obvious i wasn't referring to people who are born in this country to leave and that is a lame comment.

It obviously wasn't that obvious, and if this is what you mean I would advise you to be more careful in the language you use. You might get a reputation you don't want.

If you checkout Working Lunch, Newsnight, Panorama, Dispatches etc then you would know this is fact and not tabloid hysteria. Even Sir Digby Jones has criticised the government for ignoring this too!

I'm not saying immigration isn't a relevent issues in our society, but simply stating that immigrants wouldn't come if there weren't some need for them, and that banning them coming doesn't work (look at America where the government is eventually going to have to issue an amnesty for its millions of illegal Mexican immigrants for what not to do), so we should attempt to move beyond unworkable solutions and divisive rhetoric to find a workable and equiatable solution for all.

But why try to solve a problem when it's so much more fun to scapegoat people.

SmartCity

August 6th, 2007, 11:43 PM

It's always difficult to talk about things like this without sounding racist. I live in Leeds near Leeds Bradford airport, I visited Bradford for the first time in about five years about three or four weeks ago. The place is an utter dump, why? The Pakistan and Bangladesh community have run the place down to such an extent that business' don't want to invest in the city any longer. Instead of these communities integrating into 'British' society they have segregated themselves apart. I use to be a frequent visitor to Oldham before my best mate from Middleton died of epilepsy. Oldham and Rochdale are just smaller Bradford's. If these communities are serious about being British then they need to adapt to the British way of life rather than trying to create a 'little Pakistan' within our towns and cities otherwise what's the point of them living here?

Sorry I forgot to add.. whilst in Leeds the other week, I was ejected from a bar for asking to see a bouncers ID. After saying I would report his conduct, he just replied i'll just say you called me a B**k Bastard.

leebuk2005

August 7th, 2007, 12:14 AM

Just a small reminder of Oldham's past, many of the people who worked in the mills in not so great conditions, making this country rich were imigrants. We do have to remember this and we couldn't have done without them.

However, today there are too many immigrants coming in and that includes any immigrant from any country. This is only an island and per square mile, we are officially one of 'the' most densely populated countries in the world. Not only time to close the gates, but time to offload some also.
Not so true Oldham was the country's main cotton spinning town before the war. It was our grandparents and great grandparents that worked so hard in very poor conditions to make this country as rich as it was. Immigrants from Pakistan and Bangladesh came after the war when the mills were in steep decline because of cheaper labour elsewhere in the world.

scproductions

August 7th, 2007, 12:29 AM

:)

Oldham's doomed.

you are using my words against me by twisting what i said.

i have to watch what i say now cos i will SERIOUSLY explode over this.

people move away from them because we know what they are like. they refuse to associate with us.

when you live on an estate which suddenly becomes 98% asian you quickly become alienated (no matter what race you are) due to their sheer lack of respect they have for the area they live in and for all white people who live there, resulting in you wanting to move.

i dont bloody care what you say Isaac... if you live on an estate in Oldham which suddenly becomes asian you WOULD DEFINATATELY move and I say that as FACT. until you experience it you cannot comment.

i only have one asian family on my estate... and you cant half tell. they havent cut their grass for 5 months, they do not talk to any of the neighbours (despite the neighbours trying to communicate with them), and their children run accross other people's properties on a daily basis. HELL OF A COINCIDENCE.

i think you'll find hardly any of oldham's population disagree with what i am saying (or people from blackburn).

I feel many asians abuse how british people accept all races from around the world. british people are so scared to offend other races that they feel like anything they say against asians is racist. whenever british people make any challenge against an asian (in oldham anyway) the asian accuses the white person of being racist... and yet they can call us "white trash".

My child was spat on by an asian in a car as she left school one day, to which she replied "that is absolutely desgusting", the asian then replied with "are you being racist to me?"

hyperthetically Isaac... would you choose to move onto a fully asian estate in oldham? (dont use excuses such as "work", "family", "friends" as its a hyperthetical situation)

leebuk2005

August 7th, 2007, 12:43 AM

you are using my words against me by twisting what i said.

i have to watch what i say now cos i will SERIOUSLY explode over this.

people move away from them because we know what they are like. they refuse to associate with us.

when you live on an estate which suddenly becomes 98% asian you quickly become alienated (no matter what race you are) due to their sheer lack of respect for the area they live in and for all white people who live there, resulting in you wanting to move.

i dont bloody care what you say Isaac... if you live on an estate in Oldham which suddenly becomes asian you WOULD DEFINATATELY move and I say that as FACT. until you experience it you cannot comment.

i only have one asian family on my estate... and you cant half tell. they havent cut their grass for 5 months, they do not talk to any of the neighbours (despite the neighbours trying to communicate with them), and their children run accross other people's properties on a daily basis. HELL OF A COINCIDENCE.

i think you'll find hardly any of oldham's population disagree with what i am saying (or people from blackburn).

hyperthetically... would you choose to move onto a fully asian estate in oldham? (dont use excuses such as "work, family friends" as its a hyperthetical situation)

Actualy my neighbours are asians they are neither good nor bad and the only asian family on the estate. Its just the way white middle class politicians look after them a lot better than white majority in Oldham wwhat pisses me off. Its ok when the fucking do gooders are tooked away in there lovely countryside houses somewhere in cheshire while Oldham is burning whith riots because they local communities hate each other. The council and there highly paid executives are a bunch of tossers.

skyhigh247

August 7th, 2007, 01:59 AM

It is. I've spoken to many Polish people willing to travel to northern Scotland for only the chance of getting a crap job in a service industry in an underpopulated area, or do other things that no sensible person would consider doing for work.

No it isn't. It's a terrible example. There was a long term shortage of trained doctors and nurses, so the government offered visas for them to come here. Then the government started to fund a sustainable level of medical degrees, which people graduated from just as the NHS was undergoing a cash flow problem. That's not immigrations fault but the governments mistimed NHS 'moderisation' prgramme. If we hadn't had immigrant clinicians we'd have had a much poorer health service for the last 40 years.

How much of this is simply because there is a widespread (and partially justified) belief that British trademen are untrustworthy cowboys. If they want their business back do the work properly and charge a fair price for it.

It obviously wasn't that obvious, and if this is what you mean I would advise you to be more careful in the language you use. You might get a reputation you don't want.

I'm not saying immigration isn't a relevent issues in our society, but simply stating that immigrants wouldn't come if there weren't some need for them, and that banning them coming doesn't work (look at America where the government is eventually going to have to issue an amnesty for its millions of illegal Mexican immigrants for what not to do), so we should attempt to move beyond unworkable solutions and divisive rhetoric to find a workable and equiatable solution for all.

But why try to solve a problem when it's so much more fun to scapegoat people.

All rubbish. So because you have spoken to a few Polish people you know it all. What utter rubbish. I am using fact based research and not media spin. Masses of trained doctors and nurses are getting jobs in Australia and other places as immigrants have taken the jobs here and that is from the heads of the NHS. They are frightened to saying anything because of repercussions from the governenment. Sir Digby Jones when boss of the CBI said businesses were off loading UK workers to take on cheaper labour. This is not scaremongering, it's researched facts. And that is from somebody who was the head of the Business Institute who meets with the government and advises them. He said the government just don't listen. Now you can come out with all the unresearched rubbish you like, but when people who have access to the real figures are complaining about it, then how can you argue against it. Only a dick would do that. It's like arguing a cardboard box is made of plastic, it's a futile argument.

skyhigh247

August 7th, 2007, 02:11 AM

Not so true Oldham was the country's main cotton spinning town before the war. It was our grandparents and great grandparents that worked so hard in very poor conditions to make this country as rich as it was. Immigrants from Pakistan and Bangladesh came after the war when the mills were in steep decline because of cheaper labour elsewhere in the world.

Cheers for that. And when the jobs went, the people didn't. That's when the social breakdown comes. Of course if we could tax foreign imports a little then maybe it would help, but the Nazi wankers of Europe couldn't allow that. Africa even said, it doesn't need aid, it just needs to be able to sell it goods, but the EU said no.

Britain should have it's own laws, human rights and full control of it's country. Fxxk the EU!!

monkey_rat

August 7th, 2007, 08:15 PM

Everyone's opinion is valid, no matter how controversial, for you are only leds to them by your own experience, something largely out of your own hands, but stuff like this:

i only have one asian family on my estate... and you cant half tell. they havent cut their grass for 5 months, they do not talk to any of the neighbours (despite the neighbours trying to communicate with them), and their children run accross other people's properties on a daily basis. HELL OF A COINCIDENCE.

seriously?

So the family is a bunch of c*nts. It has nothing to do with their racial background, there are a hell of a lot of white families who treat their neighbours with similar disrespect and if you haven't stopped to consider that, which seems to be the case, that's almost too depressing to even contemplate.

skyhigh247

August 7th, 2007, 08:43 PM

scproductions

August 7th, 2007, 09:52 PM

Everyone's opinion is valid, no matter how controversial, for you are only leds to them by your own experience, something largely out of your own hands, but stuff like this:

seriously?

So the family is a bunch of c*nts. It has nothing to do with their racial background, there are a hell of a lot of white families who treat their neighbours with similar disrespect and if you haven't stopped to consider that, which seems to be the case, that's almost too depressing to even contemplate.

my point is that my whole estate consists of white people who keep the estate tidy and care for their houses and gardens. the ONLY scruffy house on the entire estate is the house owned by the asian family.

now you can use excuses such as "some white people are also messy" (which is true) but i find it to be a hell of a coincidence that the ONLY scruffy house on the entire estate is asian owned.

I dont live on a council estate. every house is a recently built detatched house and some can command up to £300,000. Therefore they are hardly a "poor" family. all i ask if for them to cut the grass every month, socialise with neighbours, and respect other people's properties (like every other person does on the estate) then i will be happy... but they dont.

there is a reason why house prices fall when asians move onto housing estates. i'm not saying this to be racist i'm saying this as fact. house prices in oldham fall when asians move into them.

again, i find it to be a hell of a coincidence that the ONLY messy house on my estate is that of an asian family.

leebuk2005

August 8th, 2007, 12:03 AM

skyhigh247

August 8th, 2007, 12:57 AM

scproductions

August 8th, 2007, 12:58 AM

http://www.geocities.com/kreplach2/Tolerant_Muslims.jpg
http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/muslims_threaten-holocaust-over-cartoon.jpg
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41295000/jpg/_41295952_protest203x300.jpg
London, England (can you beleive it)
Those placards were not promoting a peacefull protest 'europe your 9/11 is near' , lock em up and throw away the key.

desgusting... i cannot understand why they come here if they hate the west so much. its so Hypocritical.

skyhigh247

August 8th, 2007, 01:15 AM

desgusting... i cannot understand why they come here if they hate the west so much. its so Hypocritical.

I agree. It's time they pissed off to a muslim country if they don't like it. This country is a christian country, the Head Of State is the head of the Church Of England. Now, other faith believers live happy lives here so what's the big deal with Islam. They will only be happy when Islam is the number one faith. I would personally like to ban all religion in this country, but that's just my view and isn't a real ideal. We have got to stop the flood of immigrants coming in (from anywhere) for starters and put tougher controls on religious groups. After all, faith is independent from all this whatever religion you follow. Whereas religious groups are political brainwashing and nothing else. They are fanatical wankers who need dealing with and not left to their own devices.

leebuk2005

August 8th, 2007, 01:20 AM

This country has made some BIG MISTAKES.

SmartCity

August 8th, 2007, 01:33 AM

i live in oldham too and i have to say that i do agree with you.

i think the main problem is intergration... asians just dont want to do it.

the vast majority of people in britain dont have any problems with black people, or chinese, or polish, or ukranian... its just the muslim-asians. Thats a HELL of a coincidence.

They turn it around on us and make out that it is we who do not wish to have anything to do with them, but i dont believe that. Modern Britain and America are famous for accepting people of all race and cultures... but i just feel we cannot do that with asians.

We invite them to gatherings within the local community... but they dont attend.

My child invited his asian friend over to our house... but his parents banned it.

My friend was invited to her asian friend's house... but they only allowed her to enter if she wore a full veil.

Within schools they decide not to enter ANY extra curricular activities.

When police arrest asians for speeding or littering the asian people condem the police for "being racist".

Asians refuse to follow any british fashion.

Asians are generally scruffy and disrespectful (which can be seen whenever you walk through ANY asian estate)/

I just think its VERY hard for us to accept them when they announce (on a regular basis) that they are completely against western society and culture... even though they live in a western country.

I HATE how their culture says that women are inferior to men. I think it is unbelievably disrespectful when asian women wear a veil as i find it to be a symbol of segregation and i feel it COMPLETELY disrespects the women of britain who fought (to the death) for equal rights amongst men and women over the past hundred years.

I hate to sound racist, but when you live in Oldham (or any asian town) and you experience these things on a daily basis you begin to become sick of it.

I don't think you sound racist at all. Culturalist is a better way of putting it because I don't think it has anything to do with what their race is. I am a firm believer in the saying "when in Rome do as the Romans do". If this theory was applied here I don't think there would be a problem, but instead these people are allowed to do whatever they like, because if they do something that isn't liked they can just call the race card.

SmartCity

August 8th, 2007, 01:39 AM

http://www.geocities.com/kreplach2/Tolerant_Muslims.jpg
http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/muslims_threaten-holocaust-over-cartoon.jpg
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41295000/jpg/_41295952_protest203x300.jpg
London, England (can you beleive it)
Those placards were not promoting a peacefull protest 'europe your 9/11 is near' , lock em up and throw away the key.

I don't think I would be able to walk down the road holding a placard saying "Iran will pay demolition on the way". Our society protects the wrong people and I am disturbed that these people were left to their own devices. (devices hmm - for want of a better word!)

scproductions

August 8th, 2007, 02:17 AM

it worries me the way things are going in this country. these islamic groups are becoming far more fanatical as the years go by... and their numbers are increasing. i dont think you have to physically strap a bomb on your back to be classed as a terrorist... hatred such as this (in my opinion) is sufficient.

though i hope something like this doesnt happen again (although if it did i doubt it would ever be on such a scale that it once was) but the current situation in this country has certain parallels to the foundation of Nazi Germany.

wiggleyleeds

August 8th, 2007, 02:29 AM

its seems a group of racists have hijacked this thread to spout of illogical rants.

scproductions

August 8th, 2007, 02:59 AM

its seems a group of racists have hijacked this thread to spout of illogical rants.

thats why you should go away.

skyhigh247

August 8th, 2007, 03:00 AM

This country has made some BIG MISTAKES.

Don't you mean 'New Labour' has??

skyhigh247

August 8th, 2007, 03:00 AM

I don't think you sound racist at all. Culturalist is a better way of putting it because I don't think it has anything to do with what their race is. I am a firm believer in the saying "when in Rome do as the Romans do". If this theory was applied here I don't think there would be a problem, but instead these people are allowed to do whatever they like, because if they do something that isn't liked they can just call the race card.

Here here!!

skyhigh247

August 8th, 2007, 03:05 AM

Back to Oldham town, are Oldham FC having a new stadium?

The old bus station, i think it's called Clegg St thought i'm not sure, are they going to close that with the other at West Street end or will they have 2 bus stations?

wiggleyleeds

August 8th, 2007, 03:07 AM

thats why you should go away.

Ironically, its people like you, ill-educated, insular people with low acheivements and low expectations full of resentment and bitterness and anger that makes investers choose to invest in other cities and towns.

You're an embarresment, and your illogical hatred makes me cringe when reading it

skyhigh247

August 8th, 2007, 03:08 AM

its seems a group of racists have hijacked this thread to spout of illogical rants.

Don't apply that racist slur to all of us wiggleyleeds!!

wiggleyleeds

August 8th, 2007, 03:13 AM

but its quite clear what you agenda is ;)

It shows igorance on so many proportions.

skyhigh247

August 8th, 2007, 03:16 AM

but its quite clear what you agenda is ;)

It shows igorance on so many proportions.

How do i show ignorance. All i have done is base actual studied facts from the CBI and filmed evidence on BBC Newsnight, Panorama, Dispatches etc. If you still can't see it then you must be a fool.

scproductions

August 8th, 2007, 03:17 AM

but its quite clear what you agenda is ;)

It shows igorance on so many proportions.

because of ppl like you free speech is becoming impossible

scproductions

August 8th, 2007, 03:21 AM

Ironically, its people like you, ill-educated, insular people with low acheivements and low expectations full of resentment and bitterness and anger that makes investers choose to invest in other cities and towns.

You're an embarresment, and your illogical hatred makes me cringe when reading it

ill-educated? i live in oldham... therefore i experience asians on a daily basis and have done for decades.

unless u also live in a town which has a large asian community then you are far less educated than i am. making judgements from afar is very different to experiencing the reality.

my "hatred" isnt illogical... i justify all my arguments.

skyhigh247

August 8th, 2007, 03:23 AM

because of ppl like you free speech is becoming impossible

Speaking for myself, i haven't made any racist comments. What wiggleleeds seems too naive to realise is, the comments he makes, leaves you unable to make any comment about immigrants unless it's favourable. Now this is government rhetoric that gags our mouths. It's called political correctness and it's this what has got the whole country up in arms.

My comments were about over population and British workers being replaced with cheap foreign labour. How is that racist?? What nonesense wiggleleeds talks.

skyhigh247

August 8th, 2007, 03:27 AM

You know First Manchester are based at Walshaw Street in Oldham, is it true they are moving the depot and knocking down the old one?

wiggleyleeds

August 8th, 2007, 03:32 AM

firstly the issues you moan about in oldham are not a 'muslim' problem, they are a problem found with any racial backgound of the same deprived demographic. Scruffy deprived muslim areas in oldham are no diferent to scrufy deprived white council areas in oldham.

Secondly, using the term muslims is a bit too general. Muslims who are rich affluent syrians, jordanians, and middle eatsern communities in london suburbs are completely diferent to the muslims in oldham, and to all residents in deprved ex mill towns across the penines.

Thirdly, you associate and blame the demise and crappyness of the town with the moving in of growing pakistani descent community, yet you fail to apprecate that similar towns that are 100% white, where its industries died, have suffered the same fate, such as barnsley or doncaster. Infact, they are so poor and run down they, as well as liverpool, are the only two areas ro receive EU funding. Hull is another example. It's britains least ethnically diverse city, and has experienced virtually no immigration, yet its dubbed britains worst city.. and everyone is clambering to get out. Ths highlights that problems faced in shitty areas are more to do with socio-economic status of communities than their racial background. Its easy to view the whole world from an insular viewpoint. Try travelling a bit. I used to live in greater london, and the nicest parts were the asian areas. 2 miles away was dagenham.. virtually 100% white, and extremely deprived with severe ASBO problems and endemic unempoyment.

Fourthly, you moan about people using the race card, but in the same breath, use the race card yourself. When you moan saying asian areas get more funding etc, you are having a moan by using race to get what you want. What makes it worse is its based on anger and resentment and bitterness rather than facts. If councils gave povisions according to racial background rather than need, it would be illegal, and they would be sued to horrific levels.

Fifthly, with regards to immigration, immigrants pay more in taxes and revenues proprtionately than UK born people, and they consume less in public resources.

wiggleyleeds

August 8th, 2007, 03:37 AM

because of ppl like you free speech is becoming impossible

why? You are free to say whatever you like, the trouble is thesedays most level headed people see you for what you are. It doesnt prevent you from saying what you want however.

skyhigh247

August 8th, 2007, 03:39 AM

wiggleyleeds

August 8th, 2007, 03:43 AM

wiggleyleeds

August 8th, 2007, 03:51 AM

Yeah it's getting very crazy this country. How is it ordinary peaceful protests get banned and yet protests like this are allowed. Very odd. Maybe political correctness gone mad. And they wonder why the BNP keep getting more support in many areas.

This protest wasnt allowed. The peacful portion of this protest was allowed. 99% of the people in that protes were peacefully protesting. It got hijacked by a a few dozen fanatical fuitcakes. Arrests were made after, showing that protests that incite hatred and violence are *not* tolerated. Still, lets not let facts get in the way of good old rant:)

ironically, the only time such incitement has been marginally tolerated is from the BNP who still do hold rallies and incite hatred.

skyhigh247

August 8th, 2007, 03:52 AM

Another thing what you have in places lik oldham is that anyone with any ambition, character, drive, and good education leaves oldham or bradford. Those stars, be they within the poor asian communities, or the poor white communities up and leave and use their potential and move to places with better prospects. This leaves a brain-drain on these towns, and whats left is poor deprived asian communities, and poor white communites of a low SES- who feel angry and bitter, and vent this out by blaming all their ils on those in the opposing community - which is exactly what you are doing here, and its sad to watch. Look at all those who have a good old racist moan, and its alwys the thick shitheads who didnt have the ambition or education to do something with their lives and are stuck in the shitty place they have always lived.

I think a talent goes wherever it is needed. Quite often it is the big cities and so the towns are left on their own. There are still a lot of thriving employers in the town, both typical white and asian (general view). Smaller asian business tend to employee close families only, whereas this doesn't tend to happen with the english because it basically wouldn't work. You couldn't fill the jobs that way and so they advertise them. Larger asian firms do advertise and accept anybody who can fill the role. 3 close friends of mine run a local shop and rent out a number of properties and all are British born muslims. I'm not from Oldham by the way. They agree with me at the current state of extremism and the lack of real government response. It gives their religion a bad name and they feel very uneasy about the future because of the extremists.

skyhigh247

August 8th, 2007, 03:55 AM

This protest wasnt allowed. The peacful portion of this protest was allowed. 99% of the people in that protes were peacefully protesting. It got hijacked by a a few dozen fanatical fuitcakes. Arrests were made after, showing that protests that incite hatred and violence are *not* tolerated. Still, lets not let facts get in the way of good old rant:)

ironically, the only time such incitement has been marginally tolerated is from the BNP who still do hold rallies and incite hatred.

If you weren't so thick and read my posts you would know i know 99% are innocent. God you are thick and really doing my head in. The point i was making was, the government don't deal with the extremists properly.

skyhigh247

August 8th, 2007, 03:56 AM

I take it the bright ones have left Leeds also??

skyhigh247

August 8th, 2007, 03:58 AM

Do you know, i have asked questions about Oldham town itself and none are being answered. Not me who's hijacked this thread, it's you! Of course you live in Leeds and so couldn't answer them anyway. Maybe time to visit the Leeds forum?

wiggleyleeds

August 8th, 2007, 04:00 AM

skyhigh247

August 8th, 2007, 04:03 AM

skyhigh247

August 8th, 2007, 04:06 AM

It's obvious my questions on Oldham aren't going to be answered by somebody who lives in Leeds and who just spouts accusations of other members, even when they haven't read all their posts on a subject and so doesn't make fair comment. You my friend aren't even worth replying to. If you were a judge, even the innocent would be jailed, because you didn't read all the facts of the case.

wiggleyleeds

August 8th, 2007, 04:18 AM

scproductions

August 8th, 2007, 04:19 AM

Also, regarding your comments about immigration - its funny how these topics always go the same way, with the same few people jumping from one tangent to the next, into one generic rant based on muslims, immigration, asylum seekers, terrorism, british culture in decine blah blah blah.

Immigrants dont come here and take jobs from uk-born people, they do jobs where uk companies cannot succesfully recruit. Its what keeps the ecoomy bouyant, inflation low and growth high. Companies have to actively recruit abroad to fill vacancies.

please move to oldham, as after a month you will see where i am coming from!

as i said... judging from afar is very different to experiencing the reality of it daily.

yes there are poor scruffy white areas filled with crime, but they are different to the asian areas. the residants of poor trashy white areas still integrate with other communities... asian communities isolate themselves from britain and try to create a "mini bangladesh". again i'm not being racist, i am merely voicing my opinions based on first hand experiences.

i recommend you watch this videos...

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=keXSRDVHqic

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=peFQWuk4nuo&mode=related&search=

wiggleyleeds

August 8th, 2007, 04:22 AM

And I have read what Digby has had to say, maybe you should read what he has to say too, you might learn something, rather than taking a snippet of what was shown on sensationalist telydocumentary and blowing it out of proportion.

Here, read this by Digby Jones, the man you keep quoting:

"Pride and prejudice about immigration
By Sir Digby Jones
Last Updated: 11:36pm BST 19/08/2006

They come here - take our jobs, sponge off the state - wish they'd go home!" A familiar cry of ignorant prejudice but also an understandable feeling of insecurity in frightening times. Generalisations are dangerous.

"Immigration is a good thing" is no more accurate than "immigration is a bad thing". On one hand we are evidently more at risk from a terrorist outrage in the UK carried out by British-born people than by immigrants. An increase of 1 per cent in our population by immigration adds 1.5 per cent to our gross domestic product. No migrant from the EU accession states can claim state benefits until they have been here for 12 months - they must work or go home.

On the other hand, unchecked and unconditional immigration adds fuel to the fire of prejudice, strains public services and, when accompanied by incompetent Government handling of many of its consequences, makes politicians (dependent on voting sentiment) defensive.

It also risks permanently damaging one of the country's greatest assets. For around the world, the UK is seen as a tolerant and fair-minded place, increasing our stock of goodwill upon which business depends.

We are in many ways a bastard race, built up by different waves of immigration over the centuries. The City of London - now the pre-eminent financial centre in the world - was born out of eastern European Jewry escaping persecution, coming to a fair-minded (but not perfect) home and just getting on with it. French Huguenots, hounded for worshipping their God in a particular way, did wonders for our textile industry. We even relied on immigration for our royal family - every time we ran out, off we went to Europe and got another lot.

We do immigration well. Certainly not perfectly, but better than anywhere else I know. And business benefits hugely. Stop immigration and you stop building houses, schools, hospitals, roads and offices in the UK. If "they" were to "go home", you can forget this year's harvest in our fields. In a tourism industry that contributes some 8 per cent of the nation's wealth, 17 per cent of the workforce was not born in the UK.

Britain is wealthier because of immigration. Overall, 8 per cent of those in employment were not born in Britain, but these same people generate 10 per cent of the nation's income. And many are bright - 21 per cent of migrants have a degree compared with 17 per cent of the UK-born population.

The influx of east Europeans since 2004 has helped. Only the UK, Sweden and Ireland showed by their actions that they were true Europeans. Wasn't the EU meant to be about the free movement of goods (talk to the French about British beef), services (talk to the Germans about banks and insurers), capital (talk to the Spanish about overseas firms buying into their infrastructure companies) and labour?

Just like the French, we have a PPP - Polish Plumber Problem - it's just that we don't have enough of them. But since 2004 we've also taken on 11,500 care workers, 1,400 teachers and classroom assistants, 1,750 doctors and nurses and 5,700 bus drivers, all from eastern Europe.

It's about time we looked to our own failings in the world of work. You cannot blame a migrant for the fact that we don't have sufficient numbers of skilled British-born people to do the jobs. Half the kids who took GCSEs last year did not get grade C or above in English and Maths. One in five of the adult population in this country cannot read and write to the standard required of an 11-year-old.

You cannot blame a migrant for being prepared to work hard for the minimum wage. It is not the migrant's fault that so many in western Europe have become lazy, complacent and picky. We live in a world where China wants your lunch and India wants your dinner - and either work is done at competitive rates here or it's not done here at all.

We have a tight labour market in the UK and yet wage inflation has not been a problem. Immigrants are doing the work for less. If they were to leave the country, interest rates would probably rise to deal with the ensuing wage inflation. As a result, some economists estimate that the average mortgage in Britain would go up by as much as £500 a year.

People will always migrate to find a better, safer life. Immigration is here to stay. Developed countries can fight it and lose or turn it to their advantage and win. British business should be pleased that the UK starts ahead of the game.

Business must make the case for quality and controlled immigration. You will speak English, you will bring a skill, you will have a National Insurance number and participate in the transparent economy, pay tax and enjoy the protection of employment and health & safety legislation. The colour of your skin or the God you worship doesn't matter.

Play by these rules and this fair-minded country will welcome you. Come here, work hard, help create wealth - and show us up for what we are becoming: lazy, poorly skilled and complacent, often using "immigration is a bad thing" as an excuse for our own inadequacies.

The world does not owe us a living - the world is our living."

source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2006/08/20/ccimmi20.xml

skyhigh247

August 8th, 2007, 04:26 AM

skyhigh247 get of your high horse. My comments were responses to some of the posts in here. No one said my replies were directed specifically you at you.

However, with reference to immigration, you say plumbers are being off-loaded. Good! Its a globalised economy. If they are overcharging and demanding too high wages, the balance will equalise.

LOL yeah they do charge a lot!! Because builders are taken on contract by contract, for example, like the big constructions in the city centre etc, or house builders, they see a chance of making bigger profits by having foreign builders, plumbers, plasterers etc etc despite not dropping their prices. The immigrant workers get more than the minimum wage which is still way above what they are used to, but way below what British workers get paid. It all started at the peak of construction boom when there was a shortage of British builders etc etc. Then they realised how much money they could save and it's esculated thus making it hard for many of these and other types of workers to find work in this country, becuase of immigrant workers. Or should i say migrant workers. The head of the CBI has been warning the government, but as usual they bury their heads in the sand, storing up future problems. A bit like Gordon Brown has done with the pensions and Tony Blair with PPI schools.

skyhigh247

August 8th, 2007, 04:29 AM

wiggleyleeds

August 8th, 2007, 04:31 AM

please move to oldham, as after a month you will see where i am coming from!

as i said... judging from afar is very different to experiencing the reality of it daily.

yes there are poor scruffy white areas filled with crime, but they are different to the asian areas. the residants of poor trashy white areas still integrate with other communities... asian communities isolate themselves from britain and try to create a "mini bangladesh". again i'm not being racist, i am merely voicing my opinions based on first hand experiences.

deprived pakistani descent communities isolate themselves no more so than deprived white council estates communities. Deprived white council areas are can equally be insular, backwards, with tribal mentality. The people in these council areas refuse to integrate into main stream society, with high incideces of joblessness. They refuse to abide by british laws, with high ASBO rates, and joy riding and drug problems. They are intolerant and unfriendly to anyone who is diferent to them, and They have an us and them mentality (a bit like you).

You need to get out a bit more, and travel, and live in other places to get a real perspective, instead of basing everything on your primitive experiences in a grubby town thats full of crappy people like you - of whom everyone else moves out - and you wonder why investers dont invest in towns like oldham when its full of people with such a shitty mentality like u

skyhigh247

August 8th, 2007, 04:34 AM

Would you dare to go up to a builder, plumber etc who finds it harder to get work in areas of the country as there has been a recent influx of cheaper foreign labour filling his boots, you wouldn't dare!! This has featured heavily on whistleblower investigations accross the tv network. It's not made up you know. You can pretend it's not real, but it's odd how all these reputable important people are coming forward with evidence.

wiggleyleeds

August 8th, 2007, 04:35 AM

I listened to what he said recently in a tv interview and that is what is important. It's now August 2007, not August 2006. Newspapers edit what they want, that's why i don't read them. When you listen to live broadcasts, then you'll get the facts. You should have heard him on Question Time about the problem NHS workers face because of foreign workers taking our jobs.

The NHS issue is a specific fault of the government training too many doctors at the same time as bringing in more NHS doctors from abroad to cope with demand - and then all at once, all these uk doctors graduate at the same time as the NHS makes massive cutbacks in staff. And your left with a logistics problem.

Using this whole template on the whole immigration idea is silly. Have u actually read the article i posted, because if you did u would realise how silly u sound. it takes 3 minutes to read, i dare u to

wiggleyleeds

August 8th, 2007, 04:37 AM

skyhigh247

August 8th, 2007, 04:37 AM

skyhigh247

August 8th, 2007, 04:40 AM

As said before, im quite happy for uk borm over priced plumbers to be pushed into competetiveness by cheaper more willing migrant labour. Have you ever head of a jobless plumber :)

Not overpriced, just the industry standard for that level of 'skilled' work. I'm not talking about dodgy plumbers who come to your house, i mean fully trained and time served skilled plumbers, builders, plasterers etc who have mortgages and families. Would you as a skilled worker expect bus driver money? I think not.

wiggleyleeds

August 8th, 2007, 04:50 AM

im sorry but my uncle is a plumber and so are several other family members and they admit just how much its crazy money working in plumbing - which has largely been due to market force demand pushing up prices nothing else.

If your going to to try and talk about the ills of immigration u really need to find some others lines than this plumbing issue and the nhs fiasco. Even me, as someone who is pro-immigration, i can think of some much better examples lol :)

spud

August 8th, 2007, 08:40 AM

as an oldhamer i'll try to answer some questions....

a NEW STADIUM in oldham as been on the cards for nearly 15 years now,the newish owners of the football club anounnced plans for a new 16,000 stadium for both the football & rugby league club about a year ago and i believe are close to submitting plans...but in recent months the new owner of the rugby league club has also been in talks with the council about building a dedicated rugby league stadium,nothing huge,something around 6k capacity but have room to expand..the RL club & council have met 4 times in less than 2-3 months to discuss the matter....whether the RL club's choice to find a new home will impact on whether boundary park gets redeveloped as yet to be raised as an issue from either parties..

right, the bus depot...i've heard that first buses might be moving out and a supermarket (adsa) buying the land for a superstore..interesting fact about the bus depot,it was the large brick built building in the world when constructed..

cottonopolis

August 8th, 2007, 09:37 AM

And I have read what Digby has had to say, maybe you should read what he has to say too, you might learn something, rather than taking a snippet of what was shown on sensationalist telydocumentary and blowing it out of proportion.

What absolute naive crap once again. Wiggley people like YOU scare me so much. I mean where does it end?? You´re so tolerant and "open minded" but in fifty to a hundred years when britons are becoming a minority and the majority have brought a culture so different to our own- will you still be clapping to your PC tune? When your kid´s kids can´t have christmas in school. When your wife has to wear a veil on the streets to avoid abuse. When freedom of speech is a thing of the past and religious critique comes with a death sentence. When the sense of national pride and togetherness is gone (all of course dirty right-wing words to you).. Will you still be clapping then?? Or will you only then see what a great mistake you made..

A response to your absolute disgustingly naive bias crappy article about the fairy tale of net economic benefit:

www.migrationwatch.co.uk

Economic Benefit?

The economic benefit from this inflow is very limited. Government arguments are fallacious. Immigration is not essential to our economic growth. It adds to economic growth but also adds nearly proportionately to our population so that the benefit to the host community is small. (A result found also in the US, Canada and Holland). In the UK.some results show a negative impact on GDP per head – others show a small positive impact equivalent to about 4p per head per week.

Immigrants will have little impact on our ability to pay pensions in future. The Turner Commission dismissed this argument for the simple reason that immigrants too will age and require pensions. Their financial input to the Exchequer is, despite government claims, approximately neutral.

Immigration is welcome to many employers because it holds down pay levels, especially for the unskilled, and contributes to lower interest rates. It can also be a source of cheap skilled labour with no training costs. But it is the tax payer who picks up all the costs of the extra infrastructure required.

To the extent that immigration holds down wages it makes it more difficult for the government to achieve their stated aim of moving from welfare to work the 1.7 million unemployed and the 2.7 million on Incapacity Benefit. There are now 1.25 million young people under 25 in Britain who are not in work, in full-time education or training.

Are immigrants doing jobs the British will no longer do? No. In large parts of Britain where there are few, if any, immigrants. British people are doing all these jobs. The fundamental problem is the benefits trap. Wages are held down to a level where for some there is little benefit in working rather than collecting benefits. Wages should be allowed to rise to make lower paid jobs worthwhile and to encourage productivity. Increasing productivity is the only way that a nation can become richer.

skyhigh247

August 8th, 2007, 10:14 AM

skyhigh247

August 8th, 2007, 10:15 AM

What absolute naive crap once again. Wiggley people like YOU scare me so much. I mean where does it end?? You´re so tolerant and "open minded" but in fifty to a hundred years when britons are becoming a minority and the majority have brought a culture so different to our own- will you still be clapping to your PC tune? When your kid´s kids can´t have christmas in school. When your wife has to wear a veil on the streets to avoid abuse. When freedom of speech is a thing of the past and religious critique comes with a death sentence. When the sense of national pride and togetherness is gone (all of course dirty right-wing words to you).. Will you still be clapping then?? Or will you only then see what a great mistake you made..

A response to your absolute disgustingly naive bias crappy article about the fairy tale of net economic benefit:

www.migrationwatch.co.uk

Economic Benefit?

The economic benefit from this inflow is very limited. Government arguments are fallacious. Immigration is not essential to our economic growth. It adds to economic growth but also adds nearly proportionately to our population so that the benefit to the host community is small. (A result found also in the US, Canada and Holland). In the UK.some results show a negative impact on GDP per head – others show a small positive impact equivalent to about 4p per head per week.

Immigrants will have little impact on our ability to pay pensions in future. The Turner Commission dismissed this argument for the simple reason that immigrants too will age and require pensions. Their financial input to the Exchequer is, despite government claims, approximately neutral.

Immigration is welcome to many employers because it holds down pay levels, especially for the unskilled, and contributes to lower interest rates. It can also be a source of cheap skilled labour with no training costs. But it is the tax payer who picks up all the costs of the extra infrastructure required.

To the extent that immigration holds down wages it makes it more difficult for the government to achieve their stated aim of moving from welfare to work the 1.7 million unemployed and the 2.7 million on Incapacity Benefit. There are now 1.25 million young people under 25 in Britain who are not in work, in full-time education or training.

Are immigrants doing jobs the British will no longer do? No. In large parts of Britain where there are few, if any, immigrants. British people are doing all these jobs. The fundamental problem is the benefits trap. Wages are held down to a level where for some there is little benefit in working rather than collecting benefits. Wages should be allowed to rise to make lower paid jobs worthwhile and to encourage productivity. Increasing productivity is the only way that a nation can become richer.

At last some common sense!!

selk

August 8th, 2007, 10:24 AM

Hmmm. Interesting thread. Certainly confirmed my decision my decision to live in South manc when I moved here. I don't think I would want to have to integrate with you lot. :ohno:

skyhigh247

August 8th, 2007, 10:39 AM

Hmmm. Interesting thread. Certainly confirmed my decision my decision to live in South manc when I moved here. I don't think I would want to have to integrate with you lot. :ohno:

Please don't think were all racists. It's not about that, at least not from my point of view. It's population, economic cheap labour concerns for me.

Isaac Newell

August 8th, 2007, 10:47 AM

When I speak to my parents on the phone, the subject always turns to immigration in general and Oldhams' Asian population in particular, they can't seem to help themselves. Oldham seems to be poisoned by an almost Belfast like sectarianism (as are the more peripheral areas of London if you study local election results) with urban myths forming of asians being "moved" in to certain areas to shore up the Labour vote or local authority leaflets not being available in English.

It's reached almost South African levels of petty catagorization. Here in London I have Sri Lankan neighnours on one side of me, Brazilian neighbours on the other and Yemeni above.

According to my parents though my neighbours are a little more sophisticated and
"not like the p***'s we have in Oldham"

The fault lies squarely with the politicians, local and national for treating people as voting fodder and nothing more.

skyhigh247

August 8th, 2007, 10:57 AM

wiggleyleeds

August 8th, 2007, 01:10 PM

What absolute naive crap once again. Wiggley people like YOU scare me so much. I mean where does it end??

I'm sorry but its people like you who scare me, so insular and weak that you allow yourself to be manipulated by the right wing media, regurgitating their rants.

You´re so tolerant and "open minded" but in fifty to a hundred years when britons are becoming a minority and the majority have brought a culture so different to our own- will you still be clapping to your PC tune? When your kid´s kids can´t have christmas in school. When your wife has to wear a veil on the streets to avoid abuse. When freedom of speech is a thing of the past and religious critique comes with a death sentence. When the sense of national pride and togetherness is gone (all of course dirty right-wing words to you).. Will you still be clapping then?? Or will you only then see what a great mistake you made..

:lol: You really are so naive. British culture has always been changing. It has always been fluid. 50 years ago britain was a very diferent place with very diferent values. Despite massive immigation over the last 50 years, what has changed british culture is not immigration, but the move to secularism and capitalism. People like you moan about the decline of this vague term 'britishness' yet can never actually say what it is, or give any specific examples of how it has declined. As for not having christmas at school, again more scare mongering to create an under-siege climate that isnt based on reality. Despite there being lots of immigration, there is virtually no laws that have ever been changed to the detriment of the people already living here. As for wearing a veil :lol: just 3% of people in the uk are muslims, and out of them the overwhelming majority do not wear veils. As for freedom of speech, its alive and kicking, as people always manage to say whatever the hell they like. The only difference these days is that people will challenge them and see them for what they are. And regarding national pride and togetherness, again, pointig to immigration as if the decline in community spirit is to do with immigration is another red herring what you have been manipulated to beleive. Try visiting Hull, the city in the uk that has witessed virtualy no post war immigration at all, and is virtually all white. Its community spirit is non-existant, as people, like everywhere live a selfish consumerist-capitalist lifstyle that revolves around themselves. If anything people are clambering to get out of hull. If anything, the only communities left that have commuity spririt, togetherness, family values, and respect, are immigrant communities. And its ot surprising they cling on to these values, because what is the british alternative?

A response to your absolute disgustingly naive bias crappy article about the fairy tale of net economic benefit:

www.migrationwatch.co.uk

Economic Benefit?

Crappy bias article? Im more inclined to be beleive the CBI of business than the rightwing selfproclaimed 'watchdog' that is migrationwatch, thats whole existance is to lobby against immigration, from a chairman who has been involved in eugenics :nuts:

However, there are some points raised in that 'artcle' that I will address.

Firstly, even migrationwatch, the rightwing 'thinktank' cannot even prove that immigration is economically detrimental. The best they can do is "immigration is only economically benefitial a little bit" . That completely flies in the face of the usual rhetoric and claptrap about immigration being a drain on the economy - when infact the opposit is true. They even admit it keeps interest rates lower. If interest rates went up right now the country would plummet into a recession.

The benefits of immigation are very much economical. Which is why the government loves it so much. They dont do it just to piss of those who have allowed themselves to be manipulated like you.

something the dailymail would never dare tell you for fear of offending everything you stand for:

* in 2003-4 for every £100 that the UK-born contributed to the exchequer, immigrants contributed £112. This is up from £105 for every £100 in 1999-00;

* immigrants made up 8.7 per cent of the population but accounted for 10.2 per cent of all income tax collected (2003-04);

* immigrants earn about 15 per cent more in average weekly income than UK-born;

* immigrant generated £7,203 in government revenue on average in 2003-04, compared to £6,861 per non-immigrant;

* total revenue from immigrants grew in real terms from £33.8 billion in 1999-00 to £41.2 billion in 2003-04. This 22 per cent increase compares to a 6 per cent increase for the UK-born. The gap between the two contribution rates has been increasing in recent years as newer immigrants are filling vacancies in the higher-ends of the economy and paying more taxes.

source: http://www.ippr.org/pressreleases/?id=1451

If only everyone could be an immigrant :nuts:

On top of that, even ignoring facts, and using common sense shows the same thing.

London is the capital of the world, and the economic workhouse of the UK, creating the overwhelming majority of the UKs wealth and subsidsing the rest of the UK, yet London is very much an immigrant city with the majority of its population being non ethnic-english.

The two most succesful cities in the world, London and NewYork, are both the most ethnically diverse cities in the world. And the poorest cities in the UK are the least ethnically diverse - hull, liverpool, tyneside.

Countries which have a long history of being open and allow easy access for people to work and contribute to the economy have always been succesful countries such as the UK & America. Countries which close their doors to the outside world, being insular suffer. Such as the ex easterneuropean countries, that are only just opening up now and reaping the massive benefits of global econmics.

Even the richest top 100 people in the UK, more are proportionately immigrant or immigrant descent, including the richest man in the UK, laksshmi mittal of indian asian origin :)

Immigrants will have little impact on our ability to pay pensions in future. The Turner Commission dismissed this argument for the simple reason that immigrants too will age and require pensions. Their financial input to the Exchequer is, despite government claims, approximately neutral.

while this makes sense in princiapal, the reality is a significant proportion of immigrants come to the UK, at a fit healthy age, earn money, contribute to the economy, and then go and return home. The millions of people working in the service industry in london mostly europeans have no intention of living here for ever. And lots of eastern europeans come to the UK for seasonal work.

Immigration is welcome to many employers because it holds down pay levels, especially for the unskilled, and contributes to lower interest rates. It can also be a source of cheap skilled labour with no training costs.

Yes, this keeps inflation low, and growth high. It keeps the economy bouyant. We live in a global economy now, where the UKs economy is only service based now. We are entering an era where everything the UK can do, china and india will be able to do but cheaper. We either keep immigration flexible and wages competetive to keep multinational companies here, or we let them leave the UK and take 1000s and 1000s of jobs with them making the economy suffer, and making the uk-born managers loose their jobs. We either stay competetive, or we sink.

SmartCity

August 8th, 2007, 04:08 PM

The fact remains that most people here don't mind other races coming and living in the UK particularly if they can play a vital roll in the UK's economy. Most people simply don't care what colour, creed or religion somebody is. It's when the people we are talking about don't integrate into society. When they decide to set up there own area of town where people only speak their own language and follow their own culture and customs.

In many respects the British are equally as bad, in Spain on the Costa's, many of the British that are buying villas and apartments there don't attempt to integrate into Spanish society so they are equally as bad.

Basically, if you move to any country you should accept that you will have to adapt to their way of life and customs otherwise what's the point of being there. REALLY.....WHAT IS THE BLOODY POINT!!!

So what's the answer?

We should tighten up immigration so that anyone wanting to come to this country should have to pass a scoring system similar to that in Australia. The persons should have to play a vital roll in the countries economy otherwise no entry. No more of this my aunt and uncle live here, or I've just married my three wives and I want them all to come and live in the UK to be my slaves bullshit. People should be aware that they need to adopt the British culture and the British way of life whatever their religion, colour or creed. As should the British in the Costa's adopt the Spanish way of life.

monkey_rat

August 8th, 2007, 08:46 PM

Look at all those who have a good old racist moan, and its alwys the thick shitheads who didnt have the ambition or education to do something with their lives and are stuck in the shitty place they have always lived.

As you can see from my posts above I think the racist comments in this thread are unforgiveable, but this classist attitude is almost as bad mate, people are only a product of their surroundings. Labelling them as idiots isn't going to help anybody and just serves to fester things even more. I told the guy above how wrong his racist comments were in the hope he might question his own attitude in future, just telling racists they are f*ckwits and insulting their life and situation is pointless and irresponsible.

monkey_rat

August 8th, 2007, 08:58 PM

scproductions

August 8th, 2007, 10:09 PM

deprived pakistani descent communities isolate themselves no more so than deprived white council estates communities. Deprived white council areas are can equally be insular, backwards, with tribal mentality. The people in these council areas refuse to integrate into main stream society, with high incideces of joblessness. They refuse to abide by british laws, with high ASBO rates, and joy riding and drug problems. They are intolerant and unfriendly to anyone who is diferent to them, and They have an us and them mentality (a bit like you).

You need to get out a bit more, and travel, and live in other places to get a real perspective, instead of basing everything on your primitive experiences in a grubby town thats full of crappy people like you - of whom everyone else moves out - and you wonder why investers dont invest in towns like oldham when its full of people with such a shitty mentality like u

i travel a hell of a lot mate. i've visted 6 different countries this year already and i travel around the UK all the time. i have lived in oldham all my life... therefore i think my observation is justified. i even come from an immigrant family, i myself am only 1/4 english, therefore if anything i should sympathise with people who have immigrated from different countires... but i cant do that with muslims.

SERIOUSLY if you moved to oldham your attitude would change.

them taking british jobs doesnt bother me in the slightest to be honest. its just their whole attitude which annoys me.

there is a definate differance between white communities and asian communities, and if you cannot see that then you are completely deluded.

people DO invest in oldham. our shopping centre is as good as any in this country, we have a great modern bus station, a theatre, social clubs, sports centres, a modern library, modern supermarkets, and a new junior university. the fact you suggest that oldham is a deprived town is extremely insulting... money isnt everything.

the people of oldham have welcomed black people. we have lots of ukranians in oldham (which makes up 1/4 of my own heritage) and the people of oldham have welcomed them. people dont have any issues with chinese people who live in oldham. its JUST the muslim-asians.

i attended oldham sixth form college (which is 50% asian) and though it was a mixed school it was very much segmented. asians would refuse to associate with us outside of the classroom (despite whites inviting them to "hang" with us). no asians would join in with extra-curricular activities. they just dont want to embrace british culture.

during 9/11 i remember oldham born asians posting images of the twin towers on fire around the town. they celebrated it. i found it to be absolutely desgusting... white communities didn't do that.

unless you live here you cannot understand what its like.

i think you'd find that nearly all white residants of oldham (and even the blacks) would share my views.

wiggleyleeds

August 8th, 2007, 10:22 PM

i think you'd find that nearly all white residants of oldham (and even the blacks) would share my views.

Actually I know quite a few people who are from mancs but originally were from ex textile penine towns, and they all say they left coz of people with tribal insular views like youself.

If you dont like it there why dont you leave? I wouldnt dream of living in an area i hated. The fact that you have lived in oldham all your life speaks volumes. Most people who have your attitude, *always* have lived in that area all their life and have never lived in other areas to gain experiences. They make sweeping judgements based on the area they live in and somehow beleive the whole of the UK must be the same. The shitty problems you experience in your area is largely to do with deprivation that effects both the crappy white areas and the crappy asian areas. If you moved to leeds, you'd find the best areas and most affluent are the most ethnically mixed, such as moortown, alwoodley, chappel allerton all around north leeds as opposed to the white-only areas such as gipton and bramley etc.

If I was an invester, id be put of by people like you.

scproductions

August 8th, 2007, 11:42 PM

Actually I know quite a few people who are from mancs but originally were from ex textile penine towns, and they all say they left coz of people with tribal insular views like youself.

If you dont like it there why dont you leave? I wouldnt dream of living in an area i hated. The fact that you have lived in oldham all your life speaks volumes. Most people who have your attitude, *always* have lived in that area all their life and have never lived in other areas to gain experiences. They make sweeping judgements based on the area they live in and somehow beleive the whole of the UK must be the same. The shitty problems you experience in your area is largely to do with deprivation that effects both the crappy white areas and the crappy asian areas. If you moved to leeds, you'd find the best areas and most affluent are the most ethnically mixed, such as moortown, alwoodley, chappel allerton all around north leeds as opposed to the white-only areas such as gipton and bramley etc.

If I was an invester, id be put of by people like you.

again, money and investment is not everything, i dont care about that. i dont want to move somewhere else just to benefit from investment.

i stayed in oldham because my elderly parents both lived here and i didnt want to abandon them. all my close friends live in oldham. i have a lovely house in oldham and my children are both in local schools. all my history is in oldham aswell, and i dont want to abandon that.

the area of oldham i live in is indeed much nicer than many places i've seen in south manchester. its clean, tidy, the neighbours are nice, the estate is nice, and i have a lovely house. i dont want to move away.

the only problems i face are those created when i visit asian areas (which at the moment do not directly affect me) for reasons which i have already stated.

The shitty problems you experience in your area is largely to do with deprivation that effects both the crappy white areas and the crappy asian areas.

i dont actually think any of the arguments i've used have related to money, theyve related to cultural differences and attitude. my area is fine.

I know quite a few people who are from mancs but originally were from ex textile penine towns, and they all say they left coz of people with tribal insular views like youself.

i highly doubt it. many people leave due to the sheer number of asians that are moving here. even so, you meeting one or two ex residants of oldham does not mean to say that all 150,000 of us share the same view.

interestingly enough... when you look at the average figures of poeple who are moving away from oldham, the majority of them live nearest to the asian sections of town.

leebuk2005

August 8th, 2007, 11:57 PM

wiggleyleeds

August 9th, 2007, 12:21 AM

lol no offence but i thought you were about 16 or something. Its sad to hear you have children and are so eaten up with hatred. Does it not concern you that one day your children will grow up and possibley read these threads, i truely am embarresed for you.

But let me take an opposing example of how illogical you are. Lets say I lived next to a white-only council area of leeds. I'd find all the problems in the area associated with this demograhpic, who keep themselves to themselves, do not intergrate, refuse to mix with others, keep themselves to themselves, go against british laws, drive u-insured cars, have all their 10 kids playing in the streets, with all their streets littered with rubbish, and untidy gardens, have a tribal insular mentally. If I had the same mentality as you, and had never lived anywhere else, and didnt know any better, I would think all white people were like this.

I would be very ashamed and embaressed to think like this, because it is illogical. And i'd lack any integrity if i was to come on line spouting ill-conceived hatred against all white people based on my own very narrow experiences. And i'd feel even more ashamed if I had kids and they saw me acting like this.

Since moving up north and seeing areas like these penine towns and hearing the backward tribal views of people like this its so shocking to imagine its the same country, when back in London, which is much more ethnically mixed, these problems just dont exist.

You complain about specific problems with the asians in the crappy area you live in yet fail to appreciate the problems you have with the asians in the areas you live in are identical to the problems seen in white council areas. Both share exactly the same socio economic status, and both have similar traits. Due to the fact you have only ever lived in this awful area all your life you fail to appreciate that if you moved to more affluent areas, the asians in those areas do not demonstrate the same traits, and if you move away from deprived white council areas, you find white people do not demonstrate the same traits.

wiggleyleeds

August 9th, 2007, 12:33 AM

Sorry mate but i'm from a council estate. I have no ASBO, I actualy have a degree in Multimedia design and so does my sister in Fashion design. You are classist and an ass hole too i'm afraid.

and you prove how making crass generalisations and assumptions from just experiencing a very narrow life persepctive is fundamentally wrong, and quite nasty.

Isaac Newell

August 9th, 2007, 10:42 AM

Since moving up north and seeing areas like these penine towns and hearing the backward tribal views of people like this its so shocking to imagine its the same country, when back in London, which is much more ethnically mixed, these problems just dont exist.

How many BNP councilors does the London Borough of Barking and Dagenham have ?

Chorltonred

August 9th, 2007, 11:30 AM

How many BNP councilors does the London Borough of Barking and Dagenham have ?

I have to say I completely with the Leeds chap on this. There really is some ignorant racist nonsense on this thread.

However being from a mill town myself (Bury) and having lived in the East End of London, I can tell you one thing - London has a significant and malignant racism problem, far worse than anything I ever experienced up here.

And I have to say it was largely driven by the older whites from the area. East Ham where I lived was 50:50 whites and non-whites, but you'd hardly ever see any non-whites in the pubs. Many of the pubs had 'no-travellers' signs in the windows. I was soon informed that this meant 'no-blacks'. Even 'Norvern Monkees' like myself weren't immune to being given shite by the loveable cokernee rogues. Not surpisingly most of the pubs were half empty most of the time.

Not surpisingly I chose to socialise in central London where the atmosphere was considerably more hospitable.

Of course there is a cultural element to the non-integration of some asian communities. Many are first generation immigrants who can't speak English properly. The segregation in schools is a big problem. But has already been pointed out these are to do with socio-economic conditions, not race. Tarring whole ethnic communities with the same brush is racism, pure and simple.

LDN_EUROPE

August 9th, 2007, 12:04 PM

Background I'm white English and British and live in China...

anyway, it seems to me that religion plays a big part in segregated communities. With other communities over time people mix, marry and complete cohesion occurs. Let's think about the West Indians that moved to the UK... in a huge number of cases 2nd and 3rd generations have married other groups and become very 'British'.

When religion comes into it then there is more of a timeless feel about the situation. It becomes a numbers game. If you think people will NEVER mix then you can start plotting graphs about birth rates and population movements etc. People become very negative at the inevitability of cultural change etc.

I think there are several future scenarios. 1) Is the very worst some kind of Northern Ireland situation. 2) Muslims realise that the ancestors 'home countries' such as India etc are actually much more forward looking and modern now and they start to change attitudes too. 3) Over time values of all groups of people change and become more and more similar until there is little difference (except possibly which church/mosque) people go to. 4) As global movement continues to improve we get used to being 'Multi-cultural' and living amongst other groups of people. People would feel closer to other 'similar' people in other parts of the world rather than their neighbours.

Now, I'm an optimist and I really hope it will be scenario 3. However I think it will be partly 3, partly 4 and unfortunately a little of 1.

I personally think there shouldn't be ANY publicly funded religious schools in the UK. If people want to send their kids to a religious school they should have to pay for it by going private. I don't want my country to be divided.

I can see this argument from many sides... My girlfriend is a different race from me so you can't call me racist. I think most people on this thread are saying they aren't and 'don't want to be' racist but they can't fail to see what is in front of there eyes. Its easy for people to be philosophical and say in 50 or 100 years time community cohesion will have happened. However... some people like some of these forumers live in divided communities FACT. They see it from their side and some British asians see it from another side. However, today in 2007 it is still FACT.

Where do we go from here? I don't claim to have the answers. I would hope for... no more religious schools or political demographic movement. A merit based immigration system that promotes diversity (i.e. immigrants coming from a wide variety of backgrounds rather than a few countries). People working towards communities working together.

Other communities in other parts of the UK can do it and do it happily.

Isaac Newell

August 9th, 2007, 12:09 PM

I have to say I completely with the Leeds chap on this. There really is some ignorant racist nonsense on this thread.

However being from a mill town myself (Bury) and having lived in the East End of London, I can tell you one thing - London has a significant and malignant racism problem, far worse than anything I ever experienced up here.

And I have to say it was largely driven by the older whites from the area. East Ham where I lived was 50:50 whites and non-whites, but you'd hardly ever see any non-whites in the pubs. Many of the pubs had 'no-travellers' signs in the windows. I was soon informed that this meant 'no-blacks'. Even 'Norvern Monkees' like myself weren't immune to being given shite by the loveable cokernee rogues. Not surpisingly most of the pubs were half empty most of the time.

Not surpisingly I chose to socialise in central London where the atmosphere was considerably more hospitable.

Of course there is a cultural element to the non-integration of some asian communities. Many are first generation immigrants who can't speak English properly. The segregation in schools is a big problem. But has already been pointed out these are to do with socio-economic conditions, not race. Tarring whole ethnic communities with the same brush is racism, pure and simple.

I used to live opposite "Cafe Sheezan" on Barking Rd. I've never been in a pub in East Ham though, East London pubs are full of bitter anglo/irish, anglo/anglo working class with an axe to grind against anyone outside their immediate family and friends.

LDN_EUROPE

August 9th, 2007, 12:11 PM

LDN_EUROPE

August 9th, 2007, 12:32 PM

I'm interested to know... in northern towns like Oldham are new groups moving to the town such as East Europeans?

Some of my family are from Slough and its quite interesting to watch how the British asians become the group complaining about newcomers and the area changing etc. its also interesting that because this new group of newcomers is quite similar -culturally- to the UK majority - people aren't that hostile about it. BUT at the same time people don't feel guilty about complaining about them. :)

Chorltonred

August 9th, 2007, 12:33 PM

I also have a big stake in people's opinion about this because if we ever decide to have children and move to the UK I wonder how some forumers would think about or treat my future children.

Some people's attitudes (sometimes attitudes created for VERY understandable reasons) make me think that the UK would not be a good place for me to raise mixed race children.

The UK is generally an incredibly tolerant society. It is perhaps symptomatic of this that a huge debate and considerable angst over race can be generated amongst a few nerds on a skyscraper forum. If anything, it something that is worried about too much over here.

LDN_EUROPE

August 9th, 2007, 12:37 PM

I know I'm being picky and I know you're being supportive but I hate the word 'tolerant'. Its like not liking something but getting on with it anyway with a stiff upper lip rather than embracing and enjoying the difference. know what i mean? However, I'm not sure if the English language has a better word to describe what you're trying to say ;-)

Chorltonred

August 9th, 2007, 12:42 PM

Chorltonred

August 9th, 2007, 12:44 PM

Oh and also loving in my case. My wife is an immigrant jew from Namibia!

LDN_EUROPE

August 9th, 2007, 01:00 PM

Chorltonred

August 9th, 2007, 01:04 PM

I'd like to add those pictures of Muslims in London with banners about hate make my blood boil. Just as pictures of the BNP using MY British flag to create hate also makes my blood boil.

UNITED Kingdom. I will always be an optimist. I LOVE the UK and anyone that hates it be they racist black, brown, white or yellow should leave. There are plenty of less diverse countries they can live in.

But the good things about these 'protests' is that (a) they are tolerated in the first place; and that (b) 95% of Brits just shake their heads and mutter 'loonies' under their breath. They key thing is that these agitators are a very small minority.

LDN_EUROPE

August 9th, 2007, 01:10 PM

I agree that protest should be allowed. Its the pure hatred that I'm shocked by. Also, I think people question if this is just a minority Muslim view(ofcourse it is). Also, you don't see many main stream muslims speaking out against it (you could argue why should they - but I'd argue they should to help educate the general public that these ARE loonies).

Although, I'm strongly in favour of free speech when I see people with such hatred towards my country but still living there and taking advantage of its high standard of living and tolerance it makes me crazy. I can't even imagine how it makes people feel if they don't share my positive view of racial diversity in the UK.

I really question why these people live in the UK or even the west if they hold the views they do.

I'm off to buy some Chinese food to eat (integrating into the culture I live in hahaha) back in a bit.

wiggleyleeds

August 9th, 2007, 02:51 PM

I used to live opposite "Cafe Sheezan" on Barking Rd. I've never been in a pub in East Ham though, East London pubs are full of bitter anglo/irish, anglo/anglo working class with an axe to grind against anyone outside their immediate family and friends.

Exactly, and they are exactly the same demograhpic of people as those in the penine mill towns. In London, only Barking & Dahengam have had BNP MPs, and much of that is the exact socio-economic conditions as the penine mill towns - ie mass decline in the jobs in the area due to our ever changing global economy, a marginalised community that feels very much left out of the boom that has been happening in the UK, leaving them disenfranchised. An influx and increase in people and culture that is diferent to their own, and seeing thse people (particualry in east london) propser, and do well while they are still stuck in their trap and cycle of deprivation. It breeds resentment, and anger. I used to Live in Ilford, which was very ethnically mixed. And i'll tell you something, its a world apart from coming up north to leeds, or traveling 2 miles away to dagenham or romford.

I lived in Ilford, and it was very ethnically mixed, and no one had a problem with anyone.

Isaac Newell

August 9th, 2007, 03:00 PM

I've never liked Ilford personally. It still has that depresssing east London feel to it.

wiggleyleeds

August 9th, 2007, 03:10 PM

Seven Kings, gantshill, newbury park etc etc, and 100s of times nicer than most of Leeds. Up here in Leeds, or the north, living in a bog standard 3 bed semi is considered posh - and I find it shocking when I talk to people up here in leeds and they brag that they have done well in life coz they are 35, and have their own council house, and have a car! - its just two diferent worlds.

Since moving up north to leeds u learn to appreciate just how nice ilford actually is in comparison to the grimness, insularness, and stagnant character of many northern areas that have such low acheivement and low expectation still and a kind of mentality of people where all their life perceptions are based on living in tiny bad council area all their life and never knowing any diferent.

Isaac Newell

August 9th, 2007, 03:12 PM

Seven Kings, gantshill, newbury park etc etc, and 100s of times nicer than most of Leeds.

You must live in a Favela or something, I wouldn't class any of those places as nice.

Chorltonred

August 9th, 2007, 03:27 PM

I was in Seven Kings/Ilford on Saturday and it wasn't that nice.

The prosperous suburbs of Manchester/Leeds are much nicer.

LDN_EUROPE

August 9th, 2007, 03:36 PM

I visited the west suburbs of Sheffield recently and they're REALLY nice. Nicer than anything I've seen in the South East. The north of England has some really nice areas maybe because there seems to be more space and property isn't as expensive.

LDN_EUROPE

August 9th, 2007, 03:37 PM

Your aspiration points seem quite interesting though. There might be some truth in the fact that people who live down near London have higher expectations for a career etc.

monkey_rat

August 9th, 2007, 08:40 PM

scproductions

August 11th, 2007, 01:20 AM

wiggleyleeds

August 11th, 2007, 02:31 AM

doesnt make me embarassed in the slightest, my kids are old enough to make their own views. my daughter was spat on by an asian as she walked home from school one day, so i cant expect her to rate them highly either...

anyway, this is a pointless argument and i find myself repeating myself over and over again.

unless you experience these things first hand then i dont think your opinion is valid. of course you can have an opinion but i dont feel its justified unless you've experienced it. judging from afar is different to experiencing the reality.

i know the majority of oldhamers will agree with me (as would virtually any other residants of a prodominantly asian town in the UK). living in leeds or a town which has no muslims must be a blessing for you, dont take it for granted.

lol you *still* just dont see it do you. You are so insular and so narrow minded you cant imagine that the asian person who spat on you, his race or background is irrelevent. If you lived in a grotty white council area with the same kind of people, with the same kind of mentality, and your daughter was spat on by a white scally lad, would you then hate all white people?

And yes, I have lived in an all asian area that is deprived - Beeston in leeds, and yes I have lived in comparatively affluent asian areas, (gants hill, e.london), and Moortown in Leeds, and I have also lived in deprived 100% white areas, including Middleton/belle isle, and just receintly been doing a house up in Armley, a scruffy white area.

I was driving thru armley town centre today, a white working class area, and it was exactly the same as a mini bradford, except the people were a diferent colour, they were all white ( i dont actually feel like this - im not that insular or tribal - but im giving you an example ).. when i parked up, it was full of lads hanging around in groups causing touble, lots of carrs double parked, many of them didnt look insured, and were old bangers. At the chippy, the people who were in front of me had no manners and could barely speak proper english, and were rude to the owners. As we walked down to the cash point, Fast cars with young lads in drove raring past.. all the shops were charity type shops, and takeaways. The terrace streets were grotty, with rubbish in streets, and little kids running wild. Now if i was as jaded and bitter and narrow minded as you, and had never had the experience of living anywhere else, I could quite easily come on here and have a big rant about how bad white people are! But I appreciate that the white people in this area, much of how they are culturally is attributable to their socio economic status, and the generation to generation deprivation that eminates in these areas, and not their skin colour or race.

You are an embarresment, and you'll look back oneday and be ashamed of yourself.

leebuk2005

August 11th, 2007, 04:12 AM

skyhigh247

August 11th, 2007, 06:05 AM

WiggleyLeeds ive been reading a lot of your posts and I think you are one classest basterd. Why dont you stop slagging off council estates and fuck off back to London. One thing about middle class men from the south west is that you think your always right. Please leave the thread, even though your going to reply with some smart arse wanna be answer.

Lee B, i've had personal e-mails advising me not to reply to wiggley as he is out on a one man crusade to destroy the UK forums outside London. I've been advised via these private e-mails, how he has gone out of his way to ruin the Birmingham and Leeds threads to the point people feel it isn't worth making any comments. He is very stuck up from what i have seen, which may mean he feels a low achiever. A bit of reverse psychology you might say. The heading under his name 'Senior Member' says it all really. Don't rise to him Lee B. We may all disagree, but we don't have to get personal like he does.

spud

August 11th, 2007, 09:04 AM

in the meantime lets talk about something else......

oldham stadium news.....front page of yesterdays oldham chronicle

Neighbours ‘no’ to new stadium

by BEATRIZ AYALA

OPPOSITION to plans for the new Oldham Arena has been formally lodged by disgruntled Boundary Park neighbours.

Oldham Athletic submitted a full application for a new main stand, and outline planning for the South and West stands, in March.

But neighbours have hit back by submitting 563 letters of objection to the multi-million pound proposals.

Only 14 responses received by Oldham Planning Department were in favour of the scheme.

In May, Latics urged fans to sign an on-line petition in to support the project, which includes building 620 flats and a hotel at the site to help finance the stadium revamp.

But only a month earlier, residents had turned out in force at a public meeting to voice concerns that the increased traffic and people would devastate the area.

Ian Hill, a Latics director, said he did not want to comment on the apparent strength of opposition, but said he was confident the applications would be heard as soon as possible.

He said: “Our architects and consultants are discussing the plans with the council.

“There is still a lot of discussion to be had and this is a massively important development for the borough.”

Fellow director Barry Owen said members of the Supporters’ Trust, of which he is chairman, had been fully consulted on all aspects of the project and supported it 100 per cent.

However, there could be delays because of the size of the scheme.

Case officer Jim Bennett said there were many matters to be resolved before any recommendation could be made.

He explained: “It’s one of the biggest applications we’ve had in the borough and there are lots of things to be ironed out before we put it before the planning committee.

“It is complex and there is still some time to go before we make a recommendation.”

can i say that boundary park was there long before any houses where built near it.....

skyhigh247

August 11th, 2007, 09:26 AM

in the meantime lets talk about something else......

oldham stadium news.....front page of yesterdays oldham chronicle

can i say that boundary park was there long before any houses where built near it.....

It reminds me of the Brighton and Hove Albion FC affair, that went on forever. Hopefully all parties can eventually come to some agreement.

wiggleyleeds

August 11th, 2007, 10:50 AM

WiggleyLeeds ive been reading a lot of your posts and I think you are one classest basterd. Why dont you stop slagging off council estates and fuck off back to London. One thing about middle class men from the south west is that you think your always right. Please leave the thread, even though your going to reply with some smart arse wanna be answer.

So what you are saying is its ok to slag of asian areas, and use crass generalisations, but wrong to do the same for council areas?

I used 'white council areas' as a comparative to deprived pakistani areas. The difference is I dont actually beleive or live by the generalisations I made, whereas you do.

All ive done on this thread is point out that white demographic groups can demonstate exactly the same traits as the asian demograghic you describe, which makes your argument pretty flawed.

People moan (as an excuse) saying they cant say what they want coz they get branded racist, even tho rarely are they called racist. They actually throw the word around themselves so they dont have to engage in a discussion, because if they do engage in discussion, most of their arguments are totally flawed or illogical, and they are seen for what they really are.

wiggleyleeds

August 11th, 2007, 10:57 AM

Lee B, i've had personal e-mails advising me not to reply to wiggley as he is out on a one man crusade to destroy the UK forums outside London. I've been advised via these private e-mails, how he has gone out of his way to ruin the Birmingham and Leeds threads to the point people feel it isn't worth making any comments. He is very stuck up from what i have seen, which may mean he feels a low achiever. A bit of reverse psychology you might say. The heading under his name 'Senior Member' says it all really. Don't rise to him Lee B. We may all disagree, but we don't have to get personal like he does.

Well if someone has gone out of their way to message you, following me round, lurking in the background, it pretty much shows what kind of troll they are. Many people on these threads dislike others having a diferent opinion to theirs, and cannot handle it. They see a differing opinion as a personal attack - then launch into a tirade of *very-real* personal abuse in return, such as smartcity :) my very own stalkertroll lol

skyhigh247

August 11th, 2007, 11:08 AM

Well if someone has gone out of their way to message you it pretty much shows what kind of troll they are. Many people on these threads dislike others having a diferent opinion to theirs, and cannot handle it. They see a differing opinion as a personal attack - then launch into a tirade of *very-real* personal abuse in return, such as smartcity.

I don't know what's gone on before with the people who mailed me. They had some altercation with you i guess. I don't mind different opinions because without them, we wouldn't have different objectives to view a subject. For example, an idea can seem fantastic at first, until it get's discussed and then when other idea's come forward, you can then sometimes see it wasn't so good after all.

spud

August 11th, 2007, 11:11 AM

It reminds me of the Brighton and Hove Albion FC affair, that went on forever. Hopefully all parties can eventually come to some agreement.

the thing is if oldham athletic just wanted to redevelop the stadium with 3 new stands then it would get approved tomorrow...it's the fact they want to incorporate "social housing" into the scheme and the local residents don't want the extra traffic :bash: bear in mind that the residents live around a football stadium,hospital,b&q warehouse,retail park and a m62 motorway junction..you'd think they would be used to the traffic :nuts:

skyhigh247

August 11th, 2007, 11:21 AM

the thing is if oldham athletic just wanted to redevelop the stadium with 3 new stands then it would get approved tomorrow...it's the fact they want to incorporate "social housing" into the scheme and the local residents don't want the extra traffic :bash: bear in mind that the residents live around a football stadium,hospital,b&q warehouse,retail park and a m62 motorway junction..you'd think they would be used to the traffic :nuts:

Plus the investment in the local area. It could only be a good thing for house prices surely. I think a lot of people just don't like change when it comes to big developments and become wary. A year or two after it was built and they wouldn't see a problem no doubt.

wiggleyleeds

August 11th, 2007, 11:31 AM

skyhigh247

August 11th, 2007, 11:42 AM

lol its exactly the same near where I am in Leeds. Where Leeds' Elland Rd stadium is, there were proposals and ideas for a big casino, and an arena next to them, with a retail development of shops, restaurants, banks etc, that would really bring the area up and increase house prices dramatically - as they are currently some of the lowest in leeds. However, all the local residents objected, which is a great shame. However I can see their point. To local residents, this developmet will not be for them. It almost excludes them. So all they see is increased traffic and congestion. House price increase? Arguabley lots of social housing and rented housing, so its irrelevent to the peopole who live there. And arguably much of the jobs will go to people outside the area. Skilled people recruited from agencies from leeds city centre. so i guess there is two sides to the viewpoint

Casino's don't recruit generally from certain areas or agencies. My cousin is a pit boss at Stanley casino in Manchester and a friend is also a pit boss at Grosvenor casino in Chinatown. Both were untrained then became trained as croupiers and worked there way up that way. Many people do. The boss of Middleton based British Vita started on the shop floor cleaning and worked his way up to run the entire world wide group.

I don't like this constant swipe that ordinary folk are too 'shit on the shoes' of the nation to work in certain lines of work, with only middle classes being 'well educated' enough and skilled enough to be able to apply for these jobs. This of course is rubbish. Now i may be giving you far too hard a time and if i'm wrong then i apologise, but that's the impression you give me.

wiggleyleeds

August 11th, 2007, 12:29 PM

I don't like this constant swipe that ordinary folk are too 'shit on the shoes' of the nation to work in certain lines of work, with only middle classes being 'well educated' enough and skilled enough to be able to apply for these jobs. This of course is rubbish. Now i may be giving you far too hard a time and if i'm wrong then i apologise, but that's the impression you give me.

ehh? I was saying that from past experience, when new schenes are dubbed as 'regeneration, attracting 100s of jobs' in many cases none of the benefits go to the local community, who only experience the negative impact of such developments.

A prime example is the docklands area in london.

Whys everyone so touchy this morning lol :cheers:

skyhigh247

August 11th, 2007, 12:49 PM

ehh? I was saying that from past experience, when new schenes are dubbed as 'regeneration, attracting 100s of jobs' in many cases none of the benefits go to the local community, who only experience the negative impact of such developments.

A prime example is the docklands area in london.

Whys everyone so touchy this morning lol :cheers:

I was referring to many of the comments made over the high number of posts, but it doesn't matter.

Oldham needs to attract investment with open arms. Not too many people are rushing to invest there, which is a shame.

scproductions

August 11th, 2007, 11:35 PM

lol you *still* just dont see it do you. You are so insular and so narrow minded you cant imagine that the asian person who spat on you, his race or background is irrelevent. If you lived in a grotty white council area with the same kind of people, with the same kind of mentality, and your daughter was spat on by a white scally lad, would you then hate all white people?

And yes, I have lived in an all asian area that is deprived - Beeston in leeds, and yes I have lived in comparatively affluent asian areas, (gants hill, e.london), and Moortown in Leeds, and I have also lived in deprived 100% white areas, including Middleton/belle isle, and just receintly been doing a house up in Armley, a scruffy white area.

I was driving thru armley town centre today, a white working class area, and it was exactly the same as a mini bradford, except the people were a diferent colour, they were all white ( i dont actually feel like this - im not that insular or tribal - but im giving you an example ).. when i parked up, it was full of lads hanging around in groups causing touble, lots of carrs double parked, many of them didnt look insured, and were old bangers. At the chippy, the people who were in front of me had no manners and could barely speak proper english, and were rude to the owners. As we walked down to the cash point, Fast cars with young lads in drove raring past.. all the shops were charity type shops, and takeaways. The terrace streets were grotty, with rubbish in streets, and little kids running wild. Now if i was as jaded and bitter and narrow minded as you, and had never had the experience of living anywhere else, I could quite easily come on here and have a big rant about how bad white people are! But I appreciate that the white people in this area, much of how they are culturally is attributable to their socio economic status, and the generation to generation deprivation that eminates in these areas, and not their skin colour or race.

You are an embarresment, and you'll look back oneday and be ashamed of yourself.

the fact the asian said "you white piece of trash" to my daughter kinda proved they were being racist...

i dont like muslims because they move to oldham in large groups, disrespect the area, refuse to follow british culture, and insult anyone who challenges them.

anyway, you are classest and narrowminded. i have lived in oldham for many years and have formulated my own fair opinion (which many of my fellow oldhamers share) and you just dismiss it without considering any of the things i've said because you refuse to listen to any opinion which contradicts your own. i dont agree with your argument (because i experience it on a daily basis) but i still consider what you say before discarding it.

you dont live in oldham and you do not deal with asians on a daily basis, therefore your opinion is irrelevant to me.

wiggleyleeds

August 11th, 2007, 11:56 PM

wiggleyleeds

August 12th, 2007, 12:03 AM

and right now smartcity (my very own stalkertroll) will be pvt messaging you :lol:

b4mmy

August 12th, 2007, 02:10 AM

Discussing race issues, and then getting personal with each other is going to escalate into a serious problem for this thread.

Please keep it civil guys.

scproductions

August 12th, 2007, 03:32 AM

No, i've listened to everything you have to say, and i have explained that the exact same things you experience happen in white council areas of a similar socio-economic status. Your answer to this is "well ive lived here all my life so i know!" - which proves my point.

And that sounds exactly like the white people oldham too, who refuse to integrate and follow british culture, but instead live in their own ghetto with their own laws, and insult anyone who challenges them, and dislikes anyone who doesnt live like them. ---> I attribute this to deprivation, low acheivemet, lack of oppurtunities, and a cycle of culture compounded by living in an insular enclosed environment. There colour is irrelevent. Which is why you get muslims living in diferent areas that are more affluent who do not display the same traits you describe, but of course you would never know that because you have lived in one shitty area all your life, and blame all your ills on those on the estate across the rd who are a diferent race :lol:

This is why oldham will never be a part of manchester, because of your insular and tribal mentality. I have asian friends in Bury, and its a world apart from the grotty hate filled estates in oldham :)

STOP GOING ON ABOUT COUNCIL ESTATES! you're driving me crazy!!!!!!!!!!

the asians i'm talking about DONT live on council estates. they live in houses they bought themselves. they were (formally) nice housing estates until they moved onto them and trashed them. THEY ARN'T COUNCIL ESTATES!

anyway, i'm sick of you now.

SERIOUSLY IF YOU CANNOT ACCEPT THAT ASIANS ARE DIFFERENT TO WHITE PEOPLE (IN WAYS OTHER THAN SKIN COLOUR) THEN YOU ARE DELUDED. AND I THINK VIRTUALLY EVERYONE ON THIS FORUM WILL AGREE WITH ME.

And that sounds exactly like the white people oldham too, who refuse to integrate and follow british culture, but instead live in their own ghetto with their own laws, and insult anyone who challenges them, and dislikes anyone who doesnt live like them

can you please tell me exactly how 103,000 white people in oldham are refusing to follow british culture? HOW?!

cottonopolis

August 12th, 2007, 03:45 AM

Wiggley open your eyes mate. Seriously. Look at the problem and not just shrug it off with your "degenerate scally groups are no better" arguments.

Lets get one thing straight: I am not a racist.

I don´t dislike people based on skin colour. I do however begin to generalize and and dislike groups based on disturbing facts.

Ethic minorities make up only 12% of the population but 48% of the racist attacks.
In London, 62% of rapists were commited by ethnic minorities. While 69% of their victims were white. Almost all the gang rapes were commited by Asians and blacks.

I repeat: Ethic minorities make up only 12% of the population!!
The futures bright...

I currently reside in Denmark: A few more statistics: Denmark 2001 , 75% of the rapists were non white immigrants. At this time demarks non white population was 5% . Every single gang rape was commited by non white immigrants in the last 18 months. Majority were white victims.

Europe in general: in France, 75% of the rape victims are white, 25% non white. 64% of rapists are non-white. Between 2001- 2004 52% of rapists in Italy were non whites. Germany- 80%, spain-80%

Concerning your economic benefit numbers well lets get some facts straight. I´m focusing on asian groups. This group is more likely than any other to claim a whole hoast of benefits. If the numbers are anything like in scandinavia then thats about half of this group. Funny how that doesn´t apply to other immigrant groups. Figures from scandinavia show that immigrants of asian origin have a massive negative benefit once social resources, crime costs and integration costs are taken into account.

http://police.homeoffice.gov.uk
http://www.dst.dk
http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/hatecrime.htm

wiggleyleeds

August 12th, 2007, 06:51 AM

STOP GOING ON ABOUT COUNCIL ESTATES! you're driving me crazy!!!!!!!!!!

Then stop going on about muslims and asians with ur illogical rants, you're driving everyone else crazy

the asians i'm talking about DONT live on council estates. they live in houses they bought themselves. they were (formally) nice housing estates until they moved onto them and trashed them. THEY ARN'T COUNCIL ESTATES!

Do you mean just like the gorgeous detatched federation and housing association homes given to white people, in beuatiful settings, with luxury fixtures and fittings, that all become virtually derelict and boarded up with a year, because they trash them?

And yes, the asians of the same demograhpic dont get given council houses, they end up in terraced houses - and as you point out these areas experience a similar fate.

anyway, i'm sick of you now.

bye then :)

SERIOUSLY IF YOU CANNOT ACCEPT THAT ASIANS ARE DIFFERENT TO WHITE PEOPLE (IN WAYS OTHER THAN SKIN COLOUR) THEN YOU ARE DELUDED. AND I THINK VIRTUALLY EVERYONE ON THIS FORUM WILL AGREE WITH ME.

I'm sorry, youve had two people on this forum share a similar opinion to you. The overwhelming majority dont have the same kind of hatred, they just choose not to respond. In much the same way that a forum about race & religion will tend to attract people like you, giving a very skewed perspective, because the majority of people just move on and ignore it and think 'oh god not again'

can you please tell me exactly how 103,000 white people in oldham are refusing to follow british culture? HOW?!

sure. Btw i dont actually hold this opinion but it provides a counter perspective to the way you think. Many of the white people in council estates in oldham all stick to each other, refuse to intergrate into mainstream society, they wear their own clothing, talk poor english, show hatred to the country that subsidises them (always talking about how they hate it here and want to go and live in benidorm), they dislike anyone who doesnt share the same council-estate-culture as them, they refuse to accept british laws, and drive clapped out un-insured cars and think they are above the law, they show no respect for the british way of life that has provided them with everything they have, they go against british values such as tolerance and fair play, buy hating anyone who isnt like them, and demanding whatever they can get out of the system whilst putting nothing back, and they isolate themselves, refusing to mix with other people or mainstream society, churning out upteen babies to re-enact the whole cycle again.

Now, again, id just like to point out i dont actually hold these views because they are just nasty, and to persecute a whole section of society based on a few crass generalisation based on a minority of that demopgrahic is just wrong and shameful, however I am pointing out that the evil logic you have can be equally applied to white people too.

wiggleyleeds

August 12th, 2007, 07:49 AM

[quote] Lets get one thing straight: I am not a racist.

No one has suggested you are, but you have a *very* clear agenda.

I do however begin to generalize and and dislike groups based on disturbing facts.

So do you dislike white people because most pedophiles in the UK are ethnic english?

Ethic minorities make up only 12% of the population but 48% of the racist attacks.

call me naive but if all was neutral, ethnic minorities should naturally partake in 50% of racist attacks. Even if 0.5% of the population was ethnic minority, they should still partake in 50% of racist attacks. Think about it ;) But thanks for the cunning play on figures.

In London, 62% of rapists were commited by ethnic minorities. While 69% of their victims were white. Firstly, In london, 50% or more of the population are ethnic minority, ore over, so this would be expected. Try looking at stats for glasgow (the highest murder rate in europe - due to white gange warefare). Secondly, if you ignore race, and looking at socio-economic status, the majority of people in London in the bottom quartile are ethnic minority, and stats show deprivation plays the most significant part in crime. If you compare a white city such as hull, it shows greater crime than an asian city such as bradford, or leicester (not because hull residents are white, but because there is a greater incidence of deprivation in hull). If you look at an area where the majority of deprivation is amongst white people, you will find they are the ones commiting the crime. Its common sense. If you look at affluent areas, you will find low crime (regardless of whether the people in that area are greek, indian, pakistani, jewish, middle eastern, immigrant, uk-borm, etc etc - its pretty irrelevent).

Concerning your economic benefit numbers well lets get some facts straight. I´m focusing on asian groups. This group is more likely than any other to claim a whole hoast of benefits.

Really? In the UK, chinese & indians, above white-english, are the ethnic group that are most likely to perform best at GCSE's and A-Levels, and they are statistically more likely to go to university, and statistically more likely to end up in a professional job, and are statistically more less likely to go to prison than any other ethnicty including white-english - ie they are model british citezens - maybe they should start having a go at white-english people because of the detrimental effect they have on british society ;)

And with regard to immigrants in general, they contribute more to the economy than UK born people, paying proportionately more in taxes and using less public resources - as has been shown by the link i provided earlier... (the government doesnt lap up immigration for nothing u know lol)

But yes, you are specifically looking at muslims i suspect. Well the overwhelming majority of muslims in the UK are of pakistani descent. If you look at middle eastern muslims, they show similar performance to chinese and indians groups (ie they outperform white-english people). So this blows away the 'muslim' theory. Secondly, yes, I dont disagree, ethnic pakistanis perform poorley statisically ( low educational quaifications, low skills, low employment ) ie they dont do well comparatively, but they do no different to ethnic white people in a similar demograhpic. Have a look at statistics for white-english people from the lower-quartile of socio-economic status, they perfrom the same as pakistanis. Hull (virtually all white-english has the worst educational track record in the uk, with high unemployment, high crime, and low acheivement) . So yes, if we are gonna single out british pakistanis who live here, were born here, and contribute to the UK, then we should also single out poor white people who show the same traits, such as most of Hull. Or maybe we should single out northerners, - a region which underperforms the south east of the UK.

The overwhelming majority of muslims in the UK are pakistani descent, and they are all from a specific rural farmland region of pakistan. ( i was actually haveing a conversation with a pakistani lad from lahore (a city) today about this). He said essentially they are village people, from farmlands with no education, and a very specific way of life. They settled here when the UK government paid families there to bring family members over to work in the desperately understaffed textile mills only 2 or 3 generations ago, which then all died off. These communities have grown since then, and grown fast. The mindset and thinking of newer generations is very similar to their parents, and it takes time. This, in contrast was very diferent to the indian families who settled here, who were from kenya, who were educated, professionals, who moved to the UK, and so had a massive advantage, which has been shown in the way they have been able to acheive very highly, or are very diferent to the pakistani city people who come here these days to go to uni, and are the best acheivers particularly at maths and science. You could argue wll its been 3 generations, why havent they caught up with other demopgragics. Yes thats true, but the same could be said about the white council communities in the very same mill towns. Why do they still underperform, despite having full acccess to education, employment, grants, subsidies, benefits, and every possible thing to get them out of the trap. Still, generations on, in places like barnsley or doncaster (white working class ex mining towns) there is still endemic under-performance, and generations of white working class families still grow up following the same pattern as their parents. Its life. It will take time. These days, in london, yong pakistani lads are more likely to be in a proffesional job then they are running a mini cab, and these days, mini cabs are more likely to be run by other newer ethnic groups be it aficans, or eastern europeans.

Anyway, im just pointing out that simply targetting one group and laying it blame to their ethnicity is very simplistic and doesnt approach the real issues, which take just an extra 30 seconds to think about.

b4mmy

August 12th, 2007, 11:27 AM

Please confine your discussions to 'Oldham' in this thread. Thanks.

skyhigh247

August 12th, 2007, 11:42 AM

How do people rate the Spindles shopping centre, as far as the range of shops?

spud

August 12th, 2007, 11:43 AM

it's rubbish.......

skyhigh247

August 12th, 2007, 11:46 AM

it's rubbish.......

What shops do you think are missing? It's been a couple of years since i went in, so i can't really remember what's in it.

leebuk2005

August 12th, 2007, 08:27 PM

skyhigh247

August 12th, 2007, 09:03 PM

Spindles is actualy ok. I prefer to shop in Oldham than going Ashton or Rochdale. There opening a large H&M where the clock tower used to be and costa coffee has just opened up facing HMV which is great compared to close towns. Theres a large River Island and Top Man. You also have Bank and republic where you can always find some nice clothes. Ive notice its actualy getting quite busy up there on saturdays you cant find a car park space in the multi story so it most be attracting people. The shopping centre is changing lots and fast for the better.

Sounds pretty good. The more money that is invested in Oldham and the more prefered shops and businesses, then i think Oldham should become more succesfull. The council need to get off their backsides and do more to attract investment and new businesses. They also need to work on it's percieved image. Talk Oldham up and promote it like Manchester City Council do with Manchester.

leebuk2005

August 13th, 2007, 12:56 AM

sky high you should travel up at weekend it is good.

scproductions

August 13th, 2007, 01:03 AM

Then stop going on about muslims and asians with ur illogical rants, you're driving everyone else crazy

illogical? i've backed up all my opinions with valid reasons. no1 has said a bad word against me... but virtually everyone on this forum has had a dig at you!

i've also recieved 3 emails from various people saying that you've destroyed numerous threads on other forums and that i should just ignore you... so it would seem that YOU are the illogical one causing trouble :)

Do you mean just like the gorgeous detatched federation and housing association homes given to white people, in beuatiful settings, with luxury fixtures and fittings, that all become virtually derelict and boarded up with a year, because they trash them?

no actually, i've never heard of that. i live in oldham on a estate full of detatched houses (and i've lived in this house for over 10 years now since it was built), and every single house (bar one owned by an asian family) is well kept. i live in a lovely area :)

And yes, the asians of the same demograhpic dont get given council houses, they end up in terraced houses - and as you point out these areas experience a similar fate.

the asian estates maybe... but certainly not the white ones that i've come across (and live on).

bye then :)

good ridence :)

I'm sorry, youve had two people on this forum share a similar opinion to you. The overwhelming majority dont have the same kind of hatred, they just choose not to respond. In much the same way that a forum about race & religion will tend to attract people like you, giving a very skewed perspective, because the majority of people just move on and ignore it and think 'oh god not again'

ok... so two people have stuck up for me on this thread, and none have stuck up for you... interesting... :)

i have lived with asians for over 10 years now, you havent, therefore my opinion is far more justified.

sure. Btw i dont actually hold this opinion but it provides a counter perspective to the way you think. Many of the white people in council estates in oldham all stick to each other, refuse to intergrate into mainstream society, they wear their own clothing, talk poor english, show hatred to the country that subsidises them (always talking about how they hate it here and want to go and live in benidorm), they dislike anyone who doesnt share the same council-estate-culture as them, they refuse to accept british laws, and drive clapped out un-insured cars and think they are above the law, they show no respect for the british way of life that has provided them with everything they have, they go against british values such as tolerance and fair play, buy hating anyone who isnt like them, and demanding whatever they can get out of the system whilst putting nothing back, and they isolate themselves, refusing to mix with other people or mainstream society, churning out upteen babies to re-enact the whole cycle again.

if you dont hold the opinion they why on earth post it? i can only conclude that you do hold the opinion and you are just trying to save face.

i dont know where you're pulling all this crap from to be honest. oldham has relatively few council estates. many houses are owned by the people that bought them, not the council. other areas of manchester have FAR more council houses than oldham does.

anyway, i have experienced relatively few of the type of people that you have described in all my years in oldham. sure they do exist (and they arn't just unique to oldham may i add, you find these type of people across the entire country) but muslim-asians in oldham are still the prime cause of many problems in oldham.

Now, again, id just like to point out i dont actually hold these views because they are just nasty, and to persecute a whole section of society based on a few crass generalisation based on a minority of that demopgrahic is just wrong and shameful, however I am pointing out that the evil logic you have can be equally applied to white people too.

i dont know anyone who shares that view personally (and the fact you are saying that you dont either just shows that it is not a popular view)... and yet thounads (if not millions) of people around the world share the same view of muslim-asians that i do.

i am not basing my entire opinion of muslim-asians in oldham from a mere minority of the group, my opinion is based on decades worth of interaction between myself and hundreds of muslim-asians in oldham. as a group the vast majority rebel against british culture and expect everyone else to adapt to their way of life... i concluded this opinion of my own accord, i am not just following others.

HOW ELSE AM I MEANT TO FORUMULATE AN OPINION IF NOT BY FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE OVER NUMEROUS YEARS???????

don't forget i come from an immigrant family... therefore i am not just saying this because i dont like immigrants... i am saying it because i dont agree with the attitude of muslim-asians in britain.

many programmes over the past few years have focused on problems caused as a result of muslim asians. the main terrestrial channels often broadcast documentaries showing problems surrounding muslim-asians. therefore there must be thousands of people that share my view across britain as documentaries are broadcast during prime time television.

the majority of terrorist attacks on britain, america, europe and asia come from islamic extremists... doesnt that tell you something?

wiggleyleeds

August 13th, 2007, 02:26 AM

i have lived with asians for over 10 years now, you havent, therefore my opinion is far more justified.

But you havent lived in poor deprived white working class areas, that show *all* the traits of the asian areas you describe. So you will never know. I *have* live in poor deprived white working class areas, and have lived in asian areas. This gives me the oppurtunity to see the similarities. You have only ever lived in oldham so you dont know any diferent.

Every single thing you have uttered has been show to be illogical and to be of flawed reasoning, and its very very saddening that you just cant see it and will always be eaten up with hatred, which is why the rest of manchester tries to distance itself from this kind of mentality that holds oldham back.

As the moderator has pointed out already, this really isnt on topic, and it might be better if you took your generlisatons about asian muslims to somewhere more appropriate such as a bnp website or similar :ohno:

skyhigh247

August 13th, 2007, 09:10 AM

sky high you should travel up at weekend it is good.

Yes, i think i will do. I could get the 81 bus straight into Oldham instead of driving. I live off Rochdale Road near the centre of Manchester, so it's not far to go. I might take a look at Saddleworth while i'm over that way too.

Sir Miles Platting

August 13th, 2007, 10:41 PM

In the 1960's I got on a bus in Manchester centre and brashly said to the well-endowed conductress; "How much to Oldham luv?"

She promptly slapped my face.

Me coats already on and buttoned up....

What? well it is the Oldham thread innit?

Bachy Soletanche

August 13th, 2007, 11:17 PM

You should have asked "How much to Bangor?"

I'm sorry, so very, very sorry..

Sir Miles Platting

August 13th, 2007, 11:42 PM

^^ I should think so...

scproductions

August 14th, 2007, 12:33 AM

But you havent lived in poor deprived white working class areas, that show *all* the traits of the asian areas you describe. So you will never know. I *have* live in poor deprived white working class areas, and have lived in asian areas. This gives me the oppurtunity to see the similarities. You have only ever lived in oldham so you dont know any diferent.

Every single thing you have uttered has been show to be illogical and to be of flawed reasoning, and its very very saddening that you just cant see it and will always be eaten up with hatred, which is why the rest of manchester tries to distance itself from this kind of mentality that holds oldham back.

As the moderator has pointed out already, this really isnt on topic, and it might be better if you took your generlisatons about asian muslims to somewhere more appropriate such as a bnp website or similar :ohno:

no i havent lived in poor working class areas... because i work hard and earn enough money to maintain a good lifestyle (something which you suggested the people of oldham didn't do).

YOU are the one telling me that my opinion of oldham is flawed (despite the fact i have lived here for decades) although your opinion of oldham is completely correct... even though you've probably only visited oldham for a few hours over a couple of days.

Every single thing you have uttered has been show to be illogical and to be of flawed reasoning, and its very very saddening that you just cant see it and will always be eaten up with hatred, which is why the rest of manchester tries to distance itself from this kind of mentality that holds oldham back.

once again you are not just offending me, but you are damning all residants of oldham with YOUR illogicial rants.

You opinion of oldham is flawed. you suggest that all 100,000 white residants of oldham "rebel against british culture" and trash the entire town before retreating to our council houses. YOUR OPINION IS ILLOGICAL.

my opinions ARNT illogicial and EVERYTHING i have stated is based on complete fact.

i havent seen anyone on this forum (or anyone in manchester for that fact) suggest that manchester should distance itself from oldham. you are just coming out with utter crap mate.

As the moderator has pointed out already, this really isnt on topic, and it might be better if you took your generlisatons about asian muslims to somewhere more appropriate such as a bnp website or similar :ohno:

once again you are silencing my opinion of muslims in oldham (even though i am a residant of oldham and you arnt). they arnt generalisations, they are opinions i have formulated over decades worth of interacting between myself and muslims in oldham.

oh, though i'd also point this out...

this evening i watched a programme on channel 4 (which stated at 9pm) about 3 young children who had immigrated to england. one was a black boy from africa, one was a white girl from russia, and one was a muslim asian from pakistan. all of the children were the same age and camera crews documented the progress of the children over an entire year.

the african boy quickly became popular at his public school and made many friends. he adapted to british life and embraced the culture.

the russia girl (who spoke only russian when she arrived in britain) learnt to read, write, and speak in fluent english in under a year. she again made many friends and emraced british culture (though she did at times feel homesick).

The asian boy however refused to wear any western style clothes, instead he maintained his pakistan robes. he spoke as little english as possible, often swearing at the white children who couldnt understand him. he also said that 'allah' would "destroy the earth" because of western society. because of his behavior he gained no friends resulting in him being bullied because of his disgraceful accusations that everyone would burn before 'allah'.

again, hell of a coincidence...

wiggleyleeds

August 14th, 2007, 01:47 AM

no i havent lived in poor working class areas... because i work hard and earn enough money to maintain a good lifestyle (something which you suggested the people of oldham didn't do).

exactly, you havent lived in run down deprived white working class council areas to appreciate that the very traits you moan about with regards to deprived pakistani areas, also are present equally in deprived white areas too, such as a greater incidence of worklessness, low acheivement, low education skills, and a greater incidence of rebellion against british values and laws, that continues generation after generation in a cycle.

YOU are the one telling me that my opinion of oldham is flawed (despite the fact i have lived here for decades) although your opinion of oldham is completely correct... even though you've probably only visited oldham for a few hours over a couple of days.

No. I am not saying your opinion of oldham is flawed. I am saying your rant regarding muslims and asians is flawed because it is only based on your analysis of oldham where you live, a place where much of the problems you talk about are infact general problems associated with deprivation - because if you swap oldham for a similar city, that has no muslims or asians, but has the same deprivation, you will find exactly the same problems, but amongst white people, such as in Hull or Alloa near Glasgow, and conversely if you swap oldham for a more affluent ethnic area, such as north leeds, which is predominantly asian and jewish, none of the traits or problems you point out are evident. This blows away your whole argument, and you are unable to provide any explanations to what I have pointed out.

once again you are silencing my opinion of muslims in oldham

No one is silencing you. You have come on here with a very clear race-related agenda, and have made your comments abouts muslims and asians, even though this isnt a forum about race, or race-hatred, and if you are going to do this, you have to accept people will challenge you, until you change the record, and stick on topic, or if you are unable to, perhaps move to a forum beter suited to racial hatred.

scproductions

August 14th, 2007, 06:48 AM

exactly, you havent lived in run down deprived white working class council areas to appreciate that the very traits you moan about with regards to deprived pakistani areas, also are present equally in deprived white areas too, such as a greater incidence of worklessness, low acheivement, low education skills, and a greater incidence of rebellion against british values and laws, that continues generation after generation in a cycle.

so basically, the only way my opinion will become acceptable is if i change my whole attitude towards work which in turn demotes me onto living on a council estate? please dont patronise me. i am able to form an opinion on a group of people based on my own experiences with them, i dont need to live there to do that.

you seem to be missing the entire point of what i am saying. the areas in which the muslims live in oldham never used to be "deprived". the areas were just like any other working class/middle class areas found across the country. the reason house prices fell and the estates became less cared for is because of their tenants... who were muslim. in oldham ALL house prices on estates which are prodominantly asian are lower than any white estate...

for example, my friends used to live on a white estate in oldham which was extremely well cared for and house prices were relatively high, however over time the estate became prodominantly asian... resulting in the estate becoming far less cared for which in turn caused their house price to be slashed by HALF.

No. I am not saying your opinion of oldham is flawed. I am saying your rant regarding muslims and asians is flawed because it is only based on your analysis of oldham where you live, a place where much of the problems you talk about are infact general problems associated with deprivation - because if you swap oldham for a similar city, that has no muslims or asians, but has the same deprivation, you will find exactly the same problems, but amongst white people, such as in Hull or Alloa near Glasgow, and conversely if you swap oldham for a more affluent ethnic area, such as north leeds, which is predominantly asian and jewish, none of the traits or problems you point out are evident. This blows away your whole argument, and you are unable to provide any explanations to what I have pointed out.

this whole thread concerns oldham... therefore i am relating all my arguments around the town of oldham, i'm hardly going to rant over a town in sussex am i?

muslim towns are generally filled with far more tension and clashes than those with different ethnic tenants, blackburn and oldham are prime examples of this.

if you swap oldham for a similar city, that has no muslims or asians, but has the same deprivation, you will find exactly the same problems, but amongst white people

deprivation is not the agenda here as deprivation can be found absolutely anywhere regardless of race. the issues i am addressing concern the attitudes of muslim-asians in oldham (read my past posts).

such as north leeds, which is predominantly asian and jewish, none of the traits or problems you point out are evident. This blows away your whole argument, and you are unable to provide any explanations to what I have pointed out.

i do not know enough about this to maintain an argument, however i know that there are far less muslims in leeds than there are in oldham, the problems arise when there is a significant number of muslims in a town which refuse to adapt to the british way of life.

interestingly enough, i have just discovered this article...

A riot during which police officers were pelted with bricks and bottles was premeditated, detectives said today.

Violence erupted overnight in the Harehills area of Leeds, with hundreds of mainly Asian youths taking to the streets of the city suburb.

A shop was set alight, 25 cars were burned out and two police officers were injured during six hours of disturbances.

Within 15 minutes of the police moving off just before 11 p.m., between 70 and 100 Asian youths came from the Daneshouse and Stoneyholme area, set fire to the pub and then started on all the shops on both sides of it, using bricks, bats and lumps of wood putting as many windows through and causing as much damage as they could.

Assistant Chief Constable Graham Moore said he believed the trouble had been planned.

"The events were criminal activity, pure and simple. We were called to the Banstead Park area at about 8.15 last night by reports of a petrol bomb being thrown.

"Police attended but there was no trace of any incident. However, this appears to have been the start of a premeditated attack on police officers, who were drawn into the area," he told a news conference.

The two officers received slight injuries after being hit by missiles and several police vehicles were also damaged.

"At this stage we do not know the reason for the disorder but we are determined to focus our efforts on catching those responsible," said Mr Moore.

A senior detective and a team of officers have been appointed to lead an investigation into the trouble, which he said was not supported by the local community.

"There is a great deal of evidence for officers to work through and that work has already started with the arrest of four people who are currently detained for questioning. Further arrests are anticipated," he added.

A clean-up operation was under way today.

Trouble flared at 8.15pm and, after a tense two-hour stand-off, eight vanloads of riot officers and police dogs were confronted by hundreds of youths who had gathered on the streets.

The large group of Asians responded by charging towards the police, hurling bricks, wooden crates, bottles and stones.

It is believed that the trouble followed the arrest of a local man two days ago.

Two journalists caught up in the action were injured as police cleared crowds from the Banstead Park area.

After more than six hours of disturbances, most of the rioters had dispersed by 2.15am.

The disturbances - in a mixed-race area of Leeds - come less than a week after racial violence flared in Oldham, Greater Manchester.

http://www.natfront.com/images/race-riot-leeds.gif

http://www.natfront.com/images/burn-doy.jpg

http://www.natfront.com/raceriot.html

No one is silencing you. You have come on here with a very clear race-related agenda, and have made your comments abouts muslims and asians, even though this isnt a forum about race, or race-hatred, and if you are going to do this, you have to accept people will challenge you, until you change the record, and stick on topic, or if you are unable to, perhaps move to a forum beter suited to racial hatred.

i am not being racist against asians despite the way in which my arguments can be interpreted. i merely feel anger towards the way in which muslims treat the town of oldham, and the disrespect they show towards white people who refuse to adapt to the asian way of life. i as a person have been brought up to respect all races (i even come from an immigrant family), however it is extremely difficult to respect muslims who persistantly rebel against british culture and say that the earth will burn due to western society.

b4mmy

August 14th, 2007, 11:05 AM

Please remove the focus of this debate away from racial issues. I think you have all got your points across now, there is no point repeating yourselves. This forum is read by many more people than just the members who post here, and some of the syntax will offend many others.

If the debate continues along these lines I'll delete the posts so please don't waste your time on this any longer.

Thanks.

Isaac Newell

August 14th, 2007, 11:15 AM

This is a typical Oldham debate. Everytime I call my family I get exactly the same stuff. People need to understand how polarised the town is.

b4mmy

August 14th, 2007, 11:19 AM

But I think we have all got it now. It seems to me that the vitriol is rising... or is it just me

skyhigh247

August 14th, 2007, 05:10 PM

sky high you should travel up at weekend it is good.

I went to Oldham today and then went to Uppermill. Despite the weather i had a good day. I always did like Oldham really and found the town centre fine. Uppermill was busier than i thought it would be which is a good thing.

rsm

August 16th, 2007, 11:43 PM

typical oldham thread, ffs you could count the discussions about buildings on one page.

I've spent most of my life in the town but have been fortunate to see what life is like for communities and places elsewhere. Overt racism, scare-mongering, myths - many of which have been expressed on these pages attempting to show prioritising 'Asian' are disturbing but not exclusive to towns like ours. For instance on the first pages someone posted how a mosque was funded in the region of £6,000,000 of public money, this is a lie, not a single penny from the public purse can be invested this way but hey what's the truth got to do with anything.
Those at the bottom fear they have the most to lose, instead of trying to improve their lives its easier to blame others - immigrants have always been an easy target anywhere in the world. These attitudes are particularly strong across the country in areas of deprivation and not exclusive to Oldham.

Oldham's economic problem has been its lack of ambition. In many ways smaller nearby towns like Ashton have left it behind and have been able to draw in businesses and new developments (even with an ever growing 'Asian' community) such as the new cinema, ikea. Oldham meanwhile has concentrated on using its poverty to draw in government grants.

It's clear to me what strategy works - rolling up your sleeves and taking responsibility brings long term benefits. There is little Oldham has to show apart from resentment amongst those who feel that they somehow lost out.

jumping up and down screaming 'i'm poorer i need more help' leaves behind a climate of hostility and blame - especially when very little as changed after the grants have run out.

Towns like Oldham need to realise that their people, regardless of colour, actually have far more in common than perhaps they first thought.

I'd hoped to have read a thread about the new town centre flat conversions that are being developed - a first for Oldham, maybe some talk about the mills and how they're being converted. Instead on the whole i read the usual racist attitudes that have blighted our town. Shame really, thank god these attitudes aren't shared by all of us in our town.

skyhigh247

August 17th, 2007, 02:24 AM

scproductions

August 17th, 2007, 04:16 AM

rsm

August 17th, 2007, 09:03 AM

public bodies are not allowed to invest in activities that promote religious activities. This applies to mosques, churches, temples, and anything else linked to faith. Also the town does not have a mosque that cost 6 million. I'm afraid you were mis-informed. Mosques are built in these communities through a combination of fund-raising from oil-rich countries and the majority from local donations. This is exactly the same way that churches were historically built. The poorest people are usually the most godly. Promises of a better after life and all of that is suppose.

I have no intention of sending you hate mail. However, i would like your opinion on what do you think needs to be done to successfully regenerate the town? We have far too many buildings boarded up, certain areas have the feeling of a ghost town.

rsm

August 17th, 2007, 09:11 AM

This is why the moderator has given a final warning about mentioning race issues on this thread. No more please!! You'll set everybody off again.

my intention wasn't to talk about race but rather what i consider to be the politics of poverty that hinder successful regeneration. I honestly was excited when i saw a thread about my town.

Anyway, my apologies, i'll not get involved, obviously an issue that i'm far too close to. I'll go back to looking at amazing buildings being built in far flung cosmopolitan areas of the world. :cheers1:

jrb

August 25th, 2007, 09:44 PM

Various renders and a flythrough of the new Boundry Park.

http://www.fwpgroup.co.uk/projects/default_item.php?id=12

leebuk2005

August 26th, 2007, 12:51 AM

I'm sure work is now being started on that large health centre next to the civic centre. I saw a crane there the other day driving through town.
http://www.oldham.nhs.uk/images/content/LIFT/tcicc_ext.jpg

leebuk2005

August 26th, 2007, 12:54 AM

http://www.oldhamrochdalehmr.co.uk/st_mary_s_tower-3.jpg
Anyone heard about these apartments being built on St Marys way

spud

August 28th, 2007, 11:47 AM

leebuk2005

October 11th, 2007, 12:18 AM

Is Oldham on the come back
http://www.oldhamadvertiser.co.uk/ContentResources/609.$plit/C_58_article_213340_body_articleblock_0_bodyimage.jpg
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/property/graphics/2006/10/12/nplandmark122.jpg
http://www.residentiallandlord.co.uk/images/development%20pics/asset%20360/cardinal-court.gif
All three of these apartment blocks are under construction in Oldham. Two on Union street and one just off Yorkshire street

Mez

October 11th, 2007, 01:11 AM

I'll stick this in here now, couldnt find it before. anyway

http://www.oldham-chronicle.co.uk/images/News7thurs0410.jpg

A HUGE 15-storey development, which would transform the face of Oldham town centre, is being considered by planning officers.

If approved, the multi-million pound, mixed-use development would signal the end of an era with the demolition of the landmark 1908 Gaumont Cinema building — which boasts an art deco clock tower and 1930s frontage — key to the plans.

Proposals for the site, which stands at the junction of Union Street and King Street, include the building of 126 mainly one and two-bedroom apartments, with 50 basement car parking spaces, two ground-floor retail units and two floors of office space.

Developers Hillstone Developments and Millerbook Properties are hoping that the development will further boost work to regenerate the town centre and Oldham’s West End along Union Street, ahead of the proposed Metrolink extension.

The striking design, which will see the building graduate from six storeys at the Oldham Way roundabout up to nine floors, with the 15-storey tower block forming the centrepiece where the clock tower currently stands, will also create an instant landmark that will permanently alter Oldham’s skyline.

Dan Gibson, from the Royton-based Nicol Thomas architects, who created the plans, said: “This site is a prominent gateway into the town and the plans are central to the council’s vision for the new West End.

“These plans will encourage people, including young professionals, to make their homes in Oldham town centre and will help to make the town centre an attractive place to live.”

The 99-year-old building holds fond memories for many Oldhamers, operating as a cinema for 25 years, before later being used as a bowling alley and a ballroom and most recently Riley’s snooker club.

But the building is now empty and developers say that they are keen to breathe new life into a previously run-down pocket of the town centre, with the next-door premises of Megson Ponsonby solicitors also set to disappear if plans are passed.

Mr Gibson said: “To lose this historic building is unfortunate but as an empty building on a very important site it is not fulfilling anywhere near its full potential at the moment.

“The frontage on to Union Street is currently dead and this building will help bring life back to these streets.”

The plans could go before the planning committee as early as December.

leebuk2005

October 11th, 2007, 01:34 AM

i was looking for a picture of tht too just been in the advertiser too^^

Isaac Newell

October 11th, 2007, 10:37 AM

"New West End" my arse. That area's called Star Inn.

Chogmook

October 11th, 2007, 10:45 AM

2 Big cranes at the new medical centre, one is taller than the civic centre!

BIFFO

October 17th, 2007, 03:25 PM

A long distance view of the civic centre/cranes from Royton.

http://www.boomspeed.com/dan_england/Manchester/Oldham2.jpg

leebuk2005

October 17th, 2007, 11:21 PM

They are pretty big cranes plus this health centre is going to be a good 9-10 floors high nearly as tall as the civic itself.

leebuk2005

October 25th, 2007, 10:53 PM

http://www.hillstonedevelopments.co.uk/image/developments/OL1.gif
Another picture on OL1 King street.

BIFFO

November 14th, 2007, 08:52 PM

Meeting still in progress but the new North stand has been approved, still waiting on the rest of the ground. Fingers crossed!

http://www.boomspeed.com/dan_england/Oldham/LaticsGround.jpg

BIFFO

November 14th, 2007, 10:05 PM

......and now they've rejected the flats therefore the entire scheme has gone t*ts up. Well done Oldham council, well done. :applause:

I give up. :dunno:

skyhigh247

November 15th, 2007, 12:48 AM

......and now they've rejected the flats therefore the entire scheme has gone t*ts up. Well done Oldham council, well done. :applause:

I give up. :dunno:

That's a shame. Looked like a good plan.

leebuk2005

November 15th, 2007, 02:45 AM

......and now they've rejected the flats therefore the entire scheme has gone t*ts up. Well done Oldham council, well done. :applause:

I give up. :dunno:

Which flats the ones on King Street?
I hope they are built

spud

November 15th, 2007, 04:12 AM

no, as part of the redevelopment of boundary park the plans proposed the building of a number of apartments blocks as shown in the renders above..

the plans are dead in the water now...those apartment were going to pay for the stadium..

i just hope ORLFC plans for a new ground moves a step closer cos the sooner with have nothing to do with the god forsaken boundary park the better..

vertigosufferer

November 16th, 2007, 11:52 PM

Silly beurocratic sods - why have they scuppered the chance of getting Latics a better stadium.

leebuk2005

November 17th, 2007, 09:07 PM

Does anyone realy think those stupid idiots sat up in the civic centre could ever do anything good for this town.

b4mmy

November 17th, 2007, 09:12 PM

it does make you wonder...

highriser

November 20th, 2007, 01:49 AM

Does anyone realy think those stupid idiots sat up in the civic centre could ever do anything good for this town.

Well they can put some money towards the Oldham Metrolink line for starters .

b4mmy

November 20th, 2007, 02:27 PM

Boundary Park plans pushed over the edge

http://www.architectsjournal.co.uk/images/boundary%20park_resized_250_tcm23-290941.jpg

The controversial £80 million proposals to redevelop Oldham Athletic's football ground, Boundary Park, have come off the rails.

The scheme by the Frank Whittle Partnership (FWP) was narrowly turned down by Oldham Borough Council's planning committee last week, causing fans to hold a major protest against the authority.

Club officials labelled the decision 'diabolical', claiming the move could spell the end for the 103-year old football team at its current Boundary Park home.

Oldham Athletic want to rebuild three sides of its existing ground – a scheme which includes building key-worker and private flats, a 120-bed hotel, club facilities and 10,000m2 of commercial space.

The project, which has already been four years in gestation, would also have increased the ground's capacity from by 2,500 to 16,000.

It is understood FWP will now re-examine the plans with a view to submitting revised proposals.

A timescale is not yet known.

BIFFO

November 20th, 2007, 04:25 PM

I managed to attend the march and it really was a crackin' turnout for an event held in such short notice. Shame it'll probably fall on deaf ears.

Here are a few pics:

http://www.oldhamathletic.premiumtv.co.uk/page/Gallery/0,,10337~1170774,00.html

http://www.oldhamathletic.premiumtv.co.uk/javaImages/71/f9/0,,10337~3471729,00.jpg

BIFFO

November 20th, 2007, 04:27 PM

http://www.oldham-chronicle.co.uk/

:ohno::ohno::ohno::ohno::ohno:

Final curtain for Theatre Workshop?

THE future of Oldham Theatre Workshop is under threat following news that Oldham Council plans to cut its budget by almost half.

The funding blow is part of the council’s bid to cut £17million from next year’s budget, and keep the council tax rise at 4.9 per cent.

But the news is a bizarre twist for a group of people who banded together to make Oldham Theatre Workshop’s 40th year a date to remember, for it could mean there is nothing left to celebrate.

The fledgling Friends of Oldham Theatre Workshop met last week to thrash out plans to make 2008 special. But instead they were upset to hear that Oldham Council is threatening to cut its grant for next year by £40,000 — which could jeopardise the future of the nationally-renowned theatre group.

Many famous actors, including “Coronation Street” stars Suranne Jones, Antony Cotton and Anne Kirkbride, started their careers at Oldham Theatre Workshop. It now offers places to 500 children every single week — with others waiting to join.

Carys Kaiser, former drama workshop leader at OTW, is co-chairman of the Friends group with Chris Salt. The pair have pledged to spearhead a campaign to get the public on their side and to persuade the council to backtrack on its intentions and leave the grant at £87,000.

Carys said: “It’s not just about putting on a play, it has a social aspect, keeps young people off the streets and gives them confidence and discipline.”

Each place on a 10-week course costs £45, or £23 for those on benefits, with the costs subsidised by the grant it gets from the council.

Antony Cotton, better known as Rovers Return barman Sean Tulley, was at Oldham Theatre workshop for 10 years.

He said: “This is an absolute outrage, an utter disgrace — whoever suggested cutting funding should be forced to resign.”

Sheena MacFarlane, Oldham Council’s head of heritage, libraries and arts, said: “The council’s financial plans include a proposed £40,000 budget option for Oldham Theatre Workshop.

“All budget options are currently out for consultation. For further information, contact the council on 0161-770 3000 or via the website www.oldham.gov.uk.”

The Friends of Oldham Theatre Workshop are appealing for Oldhamers to get behind their campaign to save it.

For details on how to help, log on to friendsofoldhamtheatreworkshop.co.uk or ring Carys or Chris on 0752-715 7931.