Yes Sleepy i freely acknowledge the (many) flaws with PP. The main one as you say is its total disregard for the street pattern. You must understand that it was built in an atmosphere of total clearance and the area behind (Mosely Street and up to Chinatown) had been flattened in the blitz. There were plans to build on an equal scale all around in this area and Portland and Telephone House were the only ones realised as such.
I like this sort of architecture for its boldness and vision and i believe that ,if managed right, buildings on this scale can be humane and can work in a seemingly forced environment.
I dont think the problems at PP are insurmountable. I think we agree that getting rid of the bus station (which is only there for historical reasons and not for practical ones) would help things immensely. Impoving ground floor access to the hotel is very easily done and the link that Stephenson Bell are inserting may help matters.
Re Bernard House. I like the apparent unrelation (is that a word?) betweeen the 4 elements - and early proposal was just to have three different sized slab blocks- no where near as exciting.
As ive said before this type of architecture can be inhumane and it is sometimes difficult for people like me to see that. I try and judge a building in isolation because human factors and how a building is used are changeable - where as the architecture is a constant. There are books and books on this and i would love to wax lyrically about it for hours but i dont think this is the place (and its a bit late!).
My opinion on PP is this - its here, its big, its bold, lets make the most of it, treat it with a bit of respect and it may pay us back.

Thanks for your response Longford. Interesting. The bit that I would take you up on, and this is a crucial issue, is that whilst specific proposals for use of the internal floor space may change (and hence how we might interract with the building may change over time on a superifical level), ultimately its physical form will not.... well not much anyway. The building does not help the pedestrian to intuatively navigate around the city, the form and orientation of the various blocks does not reinforce the street network nor the boundary and status of our largest, central open space (in fact they confuse and detract from them). The building overpowers its neighbours in a way the neither Beetham or the GN tower do. All these things Ive outlined influence our use and perception of the immediate area and are flaws which simply cannot be overcome by some cosmetic changes or the addition of an arcade. As Ive said before these are flaws bound up in the structure and form of the building in relation to its surroundings. Bus station or no bus station; reclad or no reclad, these flaws will remain..... but having said that I have every empathy with people who see this as a valuable building by virtue of its strikingly different philosophy and aesthetic.

If I was Caw, I'd keep as many people like me online to keep people like you in check. Not to be funny, and I certainly don't think of myself as any big personality on here, but in the past year you and others have reduced the gaff to a den of bickering children. To the point that many who actively contributed just don't give a shit anymore. Because of people like you. Caw's probably done more than anybody on SSC for a sub forum, not just with his photos, but his moderating skills. Like it or not Farsight, he's not going to start censoring people for their opinions, something you clearly wish was actually the case.

So given the past say 16 months of this forum's collective efforts to get you to stop prattling on about 19th century visions in the C21 and whining about this being SKYSCRAPERFUCKINGCITYDOTCOM MOTHERFUCKERS, I think you'll allow me the right to just ridicule you whenever I please. After all, you've shown yourself you have very little time for others on here unless they subscribe to your strange, bent philosophy.

Really, go back in this thread and just look how you've spoken to Caw. You're a horrible piece of snobbish shit. You and Liverpolitan were made to be butt buddies. Fuck right off Farsight, you're a prize shit kicker. You ridicule me whenever you please? When I'm the one giving reasoned debate with explanation and detail? And you're the one making inane comments, or dishing the insults with your doublespeak accusations, and namecalling? You're the one who doesn't tolerate opinion. You're the one who tries to shout down anybody who doesn't want to "demolish the heap of shit".

OK Caw. Moderate dgnr8. He's out of order. I'm not having people like him giving people a hard time with crap like this. And you know it's not just me.

i think what the architects dident consider is what people would think of the result of all this 'thoughful and proffesional planning'

they dident think ' hey, but isnt this thing a bit ugly? ' and not build it!?

I think with a bit of imaginative landscaping, both soft and hard, people can be 'guided' through a city. Birmingham for example have made great strides in 'guiding' pedestrians through to new parts of the city the planners were keen to see regenerate and foot traffic now flows to parts of the city that were once completely cut off by the inner ring road.
I think Beetham etc have benefitted from the mistakes learned from buildings like PP and much thought was done by EDAW in the city centre masterplan around St Anns/ New Cathedral St/ Triangle/ Urbis with regards to what you say about navigation - and this is why that part of town is prospering. There needs to be the same amount of imagination and thought put in to getting people from Market Street through Picc. gardens and through/ around PP. As much as i hate No1 Piccadilly there has been an effort to draw people in and through the building and i think its working - in fact its the route i use which i never did before.
I think it can be done sleepy - it just needs the will and the imagination to realise it.

Precious. Your arguments against me are full of holes and hypocrisy. You've got no room to talk on the insults jibe, inane comments (thanks for constantly reminding us that you think cis looks like Bender, they were very valuable posts to the community and thread in question). Not tolerating opinions? Rich my friend, very very rich. I can most happily respect anybody's opinion, but when the opinion contradicts something the person previously said like I find is most often the case with you, I find I tend to lose a bit of respect for that opinion.

I shout down people who wish to preserve buildings? Satan's Bouquet for you this evening? There's definitely a stench of shite whisping from prolapsed rectum you call a mouth. You clearly have some pre-determined agenda with me, infact similar to the one you have with Sleepy and Caw. Only noting the dissagreements with your own views but never taking note of the good things.

I'll just leave you to wallow in your filthy griefhole, confused with such denial of anything. Ta ta for now.

9462:

1) There is sometimes a kind of institutionalised problem in architecture. A contempt that sneers at the man in the street. Look at Will Alsop's dog poo Fifth Grace, or that Berlin Wall in Piccadilly Gardens. Sometimes, albeit rarely, somebody says "this thing is avante garde daringly ugly. Let's build it".

2) But it wasn't the case for Piccadilly Plaza in 1963. They thought it was wow modern skyscraper beautiful. So they built it, and were proud of it. Bernard Sunley gave it his name. It was beautiful, and Mancunians looked up from their mills and terraces and were proud it. Some still are. And they know it could be beautiful again. Especially if somebody shifted the bus station that pulled it into downmarket dirty neglect.

3) Sometimes architects and developers just get it wrong. Something gets built, and it's just not beautiful. It's an imperfect world, and of course beauty is in the eye of the beholder. But I think people like you will be asking about this in years to come:

http://www.christiesestates.com/Uploads/Leftbank_Manchester150.jpg

I think with a bit of imaginative landscaping, both soft and hard, people can be 'guided' through a city. Birmingham for example have made great strides in 'guiding' pedestrians through to new parts of the city the planners were keen to see regenerate and foot traffic now flows to parts of the city that were once completely cut off by the inner ring road.
I think Beetham etc have benefitted from the mistakes learned from buildings like PP and much thought was done by EDAW in the city centre masterplan around St Anns/ New Cathedral St/ Triangle/ Urbis with regards to what you say about navigation - and this is why that part of town is prospering. There needs to be the same amount of imagination and thought put in to getting people from Market Street through Picc. gardens and through/ around PP. As much as i hate No1 Piccadilly there has been an effort to draw people in and through the building and i think its working - in fact its the route i use which i never did before.
I think it can be done sleepy - it just needs the will and the imagination to realise it.

I take on board what you say and agree that landscaping has a role to play in this regard but ultimately what you're talking about is a remediating and arguably temporary action to offset the effects of poor urban design. The other substantive part of my point was in regard to how buildings such as PP (fail to) reinforce, enclose and reflect the size and status of adjacent streets and spaces. Good urban design taps into something primal in all of us (hey maybe Im more sensitive to it than most??) in terms of how comfortable or safe or even uplifted we feel by being in a given space. Good examples of urban design such as Millennium Quarter / Cathedral Street / St Anne's Sq or Albert Sq all have similar characteristics such as proper enclosure, intuative navigation, intuative means of entry / exit and buildings that reflect the proportions of the street or space they help enclose. The lack of some or all of these aspects are the reason why in a poll of different squares in Manchester, Piccadilly Gardens would Id imagine come out least favourite. PP is by no means the only offender but it is probably the most significant contributor to the deficiencies as described in respect of the gardens and surrounding streets and spaces.

But it wasn't the case for Piccadilly Plaza in 1963. They thought it was wow modern skyscraper beautiful. So they built it, and were proud of it. Bernard Sunley gave it his name. It was beautiful, and Mancunians looked up from their mills and terraces and were proud it. Some still are. And they know it could be beautiful again. Especially if somebody shifted the bus station that pulled it into downmarket dirty neglect.

Beautifully articulated! i think ive a tear in my eye!

3) Sometimes architects and developers just get it wrong. Something gets built, and it's just not beautiful. It's an imperfect world, and of course beauty is in the eye of the beholder. :

Once again - nicely put.
And on that note - i'm off!

I've had enough abuse from dgnr8.

This message is hidden because dgnr8 is on your ignore list.

SleepyOne: Take the bus station and put it into St Anne's Square. Now do the same with the tram tracks. And the roads. Meanwhile take the statues and street furniture and cobbles out of St Anne's square and put it all into Piccadilly Gardens. Cover up the berlin wall with ivy. Give the Plaza its refurb and its mall. Let it simmer for a while to acquire the pavement cafes and the aroma of fresh coffee, while St Anne's gets the burgers and the vagrants and the diesel and chips. Now conduct your poll, and stop blaming Piccadilly Plaza.

Or alternatively tear down a whole swathe of buildings fronting St Anne's Square and put PP in their place and see if people still had the same perception of the place.

Last time I looked St Anne's Square had nearly as many fast food joints or coffee shops as Piccadilly Gardens but Id bet had proportionately more people sat around enjoying the place rather than passing through it.

There is only one Plaza, its unique to Manchester. Why tare down something that no other city has? To me thinking like this is short sighted. Birmingham tore down all its Victorian Building, replacing them with 60's building, now they're taring them down, when will it end, I dont want Manchester to be having to draw up grand schemes every 5 minutes replacing the old one.

Manchester kept its Victorian Buildings, now it should keep its 60's one. Walking round town in 100 years, I want people to be able to see architecture from all eras/decades, lets not do something that irraversible and that will leave generations after us scorning us for ill-advised descisions.

You winge about lack of design and daring with all the new builds. Theres the Plaza, yes its square, but look hows it sat, look how it dominates, theres not many building in Manchester that are this daring. The only trouble is, is that its been neglected, and now looks filthy and an embarrassment. But under the dirt, is a really splendid design, and one that should be celebrated as a fine example of 60's architecture, that every other British city tore down but we kept.

caw123- dont want to get involved in in the above disagreement (personally i think you seem well qualified to moderate!) but i am disappointed you dont like Piccadilly hotel. As ive said before i think this part of the Plaza has the most potential and is the more interestingly detailed of mcr's 60's buildings. I can understand your antipathy towards it but i would hope you could see past its current state.
The grouping of the plaza complex has already been destroyed by the needless replacement of Bernard House and the demolition of the hotel would render the whole complex even more meaningless. I would rather see the whole thing go than to water it down even more.

It's the entire experience of the Plaza. The sights, the sounds, the smells.


You say "demolish the heap of shit" about:

City Tower
Jarvis Hotel
Portland Tower
Arndale Tower
Ramada Hotel
North Tower
Lowry Building
Maths Tower
M&SS Building

Have you ever thought about how big a list this is? Have you ever thought about what would be left? Have you ever thought about giving reasoned views explaining why you like or dislike some aspect of a building? Have you ever thought about how a building might be improved or reclad or otherwise economically restored? No, because you're not interested. And amazingly you're not interested in new highrise buildings like Greengate or Chapel Wharf. And your favourite building is the old stone Reform Club. This is Skyscraper City. This isn't some private chitchat club for you and the people you've met up, who dripfeed you these "demolish the heap of shit" views. And so, as a moderator the first thing you need to learn to moderate is yourself.

Hilarious, Farsight. Of that list I've only called for Jarvis, Ramada and Portland to be brought down. I have said how much I hate M&SS, but suggested a reclad would do for that one because of it's conspicous form. I believe my reasons for wanting these demolished are perfectly valid.

"Have you ever thought about how a building might be improved or reclad or otherwise economically restored? No, because you're not interested."

Yes, of course I have. But the buildings I want demolished, in my opinion, cannot have their problems covered up by a new facade. It's the form, the way they relate, the ambience they create.
Oh, and perhaps you could consider that I would be happy for them to be replaced by much taller buildings.

"And amazingly you're not interested in new highrise buildings like Greengate or Chapel Wharf. And your favourite building is the old stone Reform Club."

Which explains why I have scoured the planning applications of these two projects, (and there are FOUR greengate applications) visited and photographed the sites, added them to skyscrapernews and written articles on them for the same site. Not to mention that I must have posted something relating to these two over 100 times. LOL.

My current lack of interest in them stems from the current uncertainty, that is all. I think it's the same for many forumers as well.

I don't remember saying the Reform Club is my favourite, either.


Caw: if you think you're a fair fit moderator, ask yourself this: why don't you moderate dgnr8?

First and foremost, because he speaks sense(most of the time). And his posts make me laugh out loud, he has a way with words comparable to a twisted wild love child between Oscar Wilde and a drugged up Bill Hicks.


You ridicule me whenever you please? When I'm the one giving reasoned debate with explanation and detail? And you're the one making inane comments, or dishing the insults with your doublespeak accusations, and namecalling? You're the one who doesn't tolerate opinion. You're the one who tries to shout down anybody who doesn't want to "demolish the heap of shit".


Which explains: "absolutely no way should you be a moderator."

Sounds like reasoned, rational debate to me. :cheers:



2) But it wasn't the case for Piccadilly Plaza in 1963. They thought it was wow modern skyscraper beautiful. So they built it, and were proud of it. Bernard Sunley gave it his name. It was beautiful, and Mancunians looked up from their mills and terraces and were proud it. Some still are. And they know it could be beautiful again. Especially if somebody shifted the bus station that pulled it into downmarket dirty neglect.


But thats just it with you Farsight. You're still in your 1963 mentality. However, it is 2006, and times have changed. The Plaza may have been considered beautiful when it was built, but it isn't anymore. It was built on a somewhat differently ideology, they had cleaned up after the war and had a bit of money to spend, so went a little crazy.

The Plaza is the result and today people suffer because of it. The bus station is a problem, granted, but the Plaza can shoulder much of the blame too. It's a barrier from Chinatown. It totally disregards the Britannia Hotel across the road. It has that ridiculous groundhugging 3-storey podium, and the hotel has another podium ontop of that! Not to mention the fact that the building is filthy, and it reduces York Street to a mere meaningless dingy backstreet for Plaza deliveries. Oh, and that horrific spiral car park ramp.

By the way Farsight, this is just my opinion. It does not mean that

a) I am anti highrise
b) I am a heritage lover
c) I should not be a moderator

But thats just it with you Farsight. You're still in your 1963 mentality. However, it is 2006, and times have changed. The Plaza may have been considered beautiful when it was built, but it isn't anymore. It was built on a somewhat differently ideology, they had cleaned up after the war and had a bit of money to spend, so went a little crazy.



And times will change again, thats the beauty of time

so thats settled then, we've all got opinions

Manchester kept its Victorian Buildings, now it should keep its 60's one. Walking round town in 100 years, I want people to be able to see architecture from all eras/decades, lets not do something that irraversible and that will leave generations after us scorning us for ill-advised descisions.


We should keep the best examples from the post war era. CIS, Pall Mall, 55 King Street, Lowry House, BT London Road, UMIST Renold Building, for example.

We should keep the best examples from the post war era. CIS, Pall Mall, 55 King Street, Lowry House, BT London Road, UMIST Renold Building, for example.

There is no better building for showing post war enthusiasm then the Plaza, daring, dominant, a landmark structure. It should not be demolished just because tastes have changed, it has useage and its a unique building only found in one city.

Give it a reclad and see where we are then.

Anyone got any pics of what the Plaza is supposed to look like after its proposed reclad, Iv seen pics around.

If it's so good why do you want to change it by recladding it. Leave it as it is if it's so unique.

If it's so good why do you want to change it by recladding it. Leave it as it is if it's so unique.

Because it does need a clean up, plus next to the "new" City Tower its flaws are all to clear.

Its by no means a perfect building but one that correctly revamped, is one that should be kept.

This picture provides my reason for wanting the plaza demolished
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y57/caw123/P2060003copy.jpg
Look at the effect this is having on the immediate area behind. Its hard to believe that only a few metres away is one of the busiest public spaces in Europe. Its creating a psychological barrier for pedestrians, keeping the streets in between Mosley Street and Portland street virtually deserted. Imagine just how fantastic it would be if PP was demolished, opening up Chinatown to the bustle of Piccadilly. They could have twin towers on the site of the plaza, one at each side of a beautifully designed pedestrian entryway from Piccadilly Gardens to York St/Chinatown. The bus station can just fuck off. They can knock down Chorlton Street coach station and build a bus/coach station there. There is plenty of room to expand with the massive surface car park just behind.

Cheers Farsight, you've 100% proved my point. Instead of addressing my views regarding your integrity, you decide to put me on ignore. What a pleasent man you are, not at all childish. Considering you bleat on about breaking down arguments to discuss the merits of the debate, you obviously have no time for discussing your own hypocrisy. And there in lies a bit of a universal paradox. It's like if you do ever decide you're possibly fallable, time and space as we know it will end up shaped like a melted trumpet due to your raping of the space/time continuum a new poo deposit box.

Grow. The. Fuck. Up. You're not exempt from criticism.

Fuck knows why I'm posting this seeing as he won't be able to see it.

He will now :D

To Farsight From dgnr8

Cheers Farsight, you've 100% proved my point. Instead of addressing my views regarding your integrity, you decide to put me on ignore. What a pleasent man you are, not at all childish. Considering you bleat on about breaking down arguments to discuss the merits of the debate, you obviously have no time for discussing your own hypocrisy. And there in lies a bit of a universal paradox. It's like if you do ever decide you're possibly fallable, time and space as we know it will end up shaped like a melted trumpet due to your raping of the space/time continuum a new poo deposit box.

Grow. The. Fuck. Up. You're not exempt from criticism.

Fuck knows why I'm posting this seeing as he won't be able to see it.

Look at the effect this is having on the immediate area behind. Its hard to believe that only a few metres away is one of the busiest public spaces in Europe. Its creating a psychological barrier for pedestrians, keeping the streets in between Mosley Street and Portland street virtually deserted. Imagine just how fantastic it would be if PP was demolished, opening up Chinatown to the bustle of Piccadilly. They could have twin towers on the site of the plaza, one at each side of a beautifully designed pedestrian entryway from Piccadilly Gardens to York St/Chinatown. The bus station can just fuck off. They can knock down Chorlton Street coach station and build a bus/coach station there. There is plenty of room to expand with the massive surface car park just behind.

But then would you be happy with the Portland Tower?

No bus station, what "bussle" in Piccadilly are you talking about?

"Its creating a psychological barrier for pedestrians", thats what Tall Building do Im afraid

Cheers Farsight, you've 100% proved my point. Instead of addressing my views regarding your integrity, you decide to put me on ignore. What a pleasent man you are, not at all childish. Considering you bleat on about breaking down arguments to discuss the merits of the debate, you obviously have no time for discussing your own hypocrisy. And there in lies a bit of a universal paradox. It's like if you do ever decide you're possibly fallable, time and space as we know it will end up shaped like a melted trumpet due to your raping of the space/time continuum a new poo deposit box.

Grow. The. Fuck. Up. You're not exempt from criticism.

Fuck knows why I'm posting this seeing as he won't be able to see it.

Here. . .

And Isn't Farsight from Southampton or something? Born in Middleton, grew up and lived all his life on the South coast. I recall him saying that.

Look at the effect this is having on the immediate area behind. Its hard to believe that only a few metres away is one of the busiest public spaces in Europe. Its creating a psychological barrier for pedestrians, keeping the streets in between Mosley Street and Portland street virtually deserted. Imagine just how fantastic it would be if PP was demolished, opening up Chinatown to the bustle of Piccadilly. They could have twin towers on the site of the plaza, one at each side of a beautifully designed pedestrian entryway from Piccadilly Gardens to York St/Chinatown. The bus station can just fuck off. They can knock down Chorlton Street coach station and build a bus/coach station there. There is plenty of room to expand with the massive surface car park just behind.

But then would you be happy with the Portland Tower?

No bus station, what "bussle" in Piccadilly are you talking about?

"Its creating a psychological barrier for pedestrians", thats what Tall Building do Im afraid
At least Portland Towers windows arnt falling out. Portland Tower is simple and it works, even if some people think is shit. Its still petty shit but not as bad as the plaza.

Here. . .

And Isn't Farsight from Southampton or something? Born in Middleton, grew up and lived all his life on the South coast. I recall him saying that.

An outsider? BURN HIM!

[QUOTE=TheGrand]
At least Portland Towers windows arnt falling out. Portland Tower is simple and it works, even if some people think is shit. Its still petty shit but not as bad as the plaza.


But surely this means the Plaza needs a clean up, not millions upon millions of pounds being spent on demolishing it, then building another building that in 40 years time you'll want demolishing

An outsider? BURN HIM!

And all the folk from Knutsford too.

"Its creating a psychological barrier for pedestrians", thats what Tall Building do Im afraid

No they don't. It's the podium and hotel that create the barrier. Not only psychological but physical!

[QUOTE=andysimo123]


But surely this means the Plaza needs a clean up, not millions upon millions of pounds being spent on demolishing it, then building another building that in 40 years time you'll want demolishing


This is what gets on my tits. What makes you think people liked it 40 odd years ago? Not many did. Because it's always looked rank. Just like I didn't like the Arndale Centre when it was completed. I'll say it again. . . The CIS, now that's a great example of a building that was built during the same period. It looked fantastic then, and it's looks even better now. Nobody wants to flatten it. I wonder why.

But then would you be happy with the Portland Tower?
Portland Tower fits in with the streetscape. Its only got a small footprint and is easy to get around. It doesnt leave a wake of desertedness behind it in an entire district of the city centre.

No bus station, what "bussle" in Piccadilly are you talking about?
Even if the bus station was moved a bit further down Portland Street, Piccadilly Gardens would still be very busy. Its the conversion of the busiest shopping street in the UK outside London, the street leading to the main railway station etc etc... not to mention that the Metrolink station would still be there.

"Its creating a psychological barrier for pedestrians", thats what Tall Building do Im afraid
No, tall buildings dont do that. Plaza's with fucking huge footprint on an entire city centre block do. If you took away the Plaza, and left Sunley on its own, the footprint would have nowhere near as much impact.

[QUOTE=TheGrand]


This is what gets on my tits. What makes you think people liked it 40 odd years ago? Not many did. Because it's always looked rank. Just like I didn't like the Arndale Centre when it was completed. I'll say it again. . . The CIS, now that's a great example of a building that was built during the same period. It looked fantastic then, and it's looks even better now. Nobody wants to flatten it. I wonder why.


well 40 years ago they wanted the town hall demolishing, tastes change, and The Plaza because of neglect, has fallen out of favour with people, that doesnt mean it will always be the case.

And as for the CIS, its status benefits from its location, shove it in Piccadilly and the same arguements for its demolishon will raise their heads

And as for the CIS, its status benefits from its location, shove it in Piccadilly and the same arguements for its demolishon will raise their heads

I disagree. Ignore their locations, and CIS is a far better building than the Plaza.

Portland Tower fits in with the streetscape. Its only got a small footprint and is easy to get around. It doesnt leave a wake of desertedness behind it in an entire district of the city centre.

Thats because the area around it is mainly car parks, not shops, shove a bus station round there and the same problems will arise. On a side note, a major bus station for manchester not linked to the tram network is pretty poor planning.


Even if the bus station was moved a bit further down Portland Street, Piccadilly Gardens would still be very busy. Its the conversion of the busiest shopping street in the UK outside London, the street leading to the main railway station etc etc... not to mention that the Metrolink station would still be there.

Thats assuming thats what the town planners want to happen to Piccadilly, at the moment with the bars/eateries moving into the area, it looks like that retail isnt on the agenda, I may be wrong. As for the back of the Plaza, this is a problem, but I think this could be overcome without the huge expense

No, tall buildings dont do that. Plaza's with fucking huge footprint on an entire city centre block do. If you took away the Plaza, and left Sunley on its own, the footprint would have nowhere near as much impact.

All tall buildings dominate their surrounding areas, I live a couple of hundred yards from the hilton, every morning its there, you cant escape the fucker, it doesnt mean it should be demolished, far from it. Like I said, I understand totally the problems with the back of the Plaza on China town. But I also think that other buildings in the area share the blame for this like The Chambers for example

I disagree. Ignore their locations, and CIS is a far better building than the Plaza.

despite my support for PP i agree with this. CIS is a much better quality building but it has also enjoyed 40 years of good maintenance, low impact usage, a preferable location (not a bus station out front with a chippy and fruit machines in its lobby) and certain amount of affection.
PP has had non of these things and is therefore in the state it is in.
On my list of good quality post war buildings PP comes very low down, but that is not say it isnt an important building that has potential to be an asset to the city and not a liability. The free market is very ruthless at getting rid of buildings that dont work. PP is still there and there is investment being made in it - that must say something for it.

despite my support for PP i agree with this. CIS is a much better quality building but it has also enjoyed 40 years of good maintenance, low impact usage, a preferable location (not a bus station out front with a chippy and fruit machines in its lobby) and certain amount of affection.
PP has had non of these things and is therefore in the state it is in.
On my list of good quality post war buildings PP comes very low down, but that is not say it isnt an important building that has potential to be an asset to the city and not a liability. The free market is very ruthless at getting rid of buildings that dont work. PP is still there and there is investment being made in it - that must say something for it.

Spot on

And all the folk from Knutsford too.

Awwww.... What we done to deserve this. (F)arsewipe had a go at me too

Awwww.... What we done to deserve this. (F)arsewipe had a go at me too


I was being ironic.

And I love Knutsford folk. I used to go out with a very pretty girl from there. Lovely lass.

And I love Knutsford folk. I used to go out with a very pretty girl from there. Lovely lass.

Me too, her name was Tracey and she lived next door to the fire station.

Dad?

[QUOTE=ManchesterISwonderful]


well 40 years ago they wanted the town hall demolishing, tastes change, and The Plaza because of neglect, has fallen out of favour with people, that doesnt mean it will always be the case.

And as for the CIS, its status benefits from its location, shove it in Piccadilly and the same arguements for its demolishon will raise their heads

As I said, CIS is a gem and has always been one. The Plaza hasn't. I can just imagine SSC 40 years on. 'It's about time we blew up Piccadilly 1' ... 'No, you're only saying that because you hate 90's/Noughties architecture'... 'But it's always been rank'... 'no it hasn't, you just hate architecture from that period'. 'Bollocks, I say so'

Like it all you want, afterall, it's all about taste, but to merely put the dislike of it, down to a 'taste change', is silly. As I said, I've always hated it. And I'm well into my 30's. But I've always liked the CIS.

Dad?

Is that you son?

Me too, her name was Tracey and she lived next door to the fire station.

Was she fit?

Was she fit?
I hear dgnr8 is lovely looking boy now so she can't have been all that bad!

I've got my own legs and everything.

The analogy between PP and buildings we wanted to demolish 50 years ago is a false one in my view.

PP's failings as Ive said are bound up in its structure, form and relationship to surrounding streets and spaces - failings which cannot be rectified by a cosmetic recad or cleaning job. 50 years ago when there simply wasnt the diversity in the built environment that we have today you can understand why people wanted to make a fresh start from the ravages of war, the economic uncertainty and the soot ridden buildings that surrounded them and embrace the opportunites afforded by the motor car and geaming, soaring new concrete structures.... opportunities and ideologies which sadly neglected the human factor and which 50 years on we are still trying to rectify. Ergo, Demolish the Jarvis.

I like it but it's the wrong building in the wrong place. I find it very hard to think of a place it would be the right building for, but I'm sure there is one. To be honest though, I wouldn't bother knocking it down unless someone was also going to get rid of No.1, Sunley, that bit on the side with Marks' in it, the old County Hall, the Berlin wall, that Starbucks, Halifax and Superdrug on Picadilly, sort out the roof on Primark, put in a new sqaure and clean all the remaining buildings because it'll still look a complete mess.

geaming, soaring new concrete structures
I assume you mean "gleaming". Since when did concrete gleam?

I assume you mean "gleaming". Since when did concrete gleam?

Ian Simpson uses polished concrete all the time, and there's loads of shiny/gleaming concrete buildings about luv... what's your problem?

Ian Simpson uses polished concrete all the time, and there's loads of shiny/gleaming concrete buildings about luv... what's your problem?
I thought this place could do with a bit of light banter after the last few days...... :cheers:

There are mainy different types of concrete finishes using additives etc. Just ask the sound minded Doka Dan

There are mainy different types of concrete finishes using additives etc. Just ask the sound minded Doka Dan
Indeed... light grey, dark grey, stained grey or mouldy grey... :runaway:

I thought this place could do with a bit of light banter after the last few days...... :cheers:
....well, I've still got some haribo left if you want one... I've eaten all the eggs tho...

....well, I've still got some haribo left if you want one... I've eaten all the eggs tho...
Such selfishness. I bet it's a bag of star mix too... :(

It was beautiful once (i guess you had to be there!)

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f85/garybaldy/webmedia-1.jpg

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f85/garybaldy/webmedia.jpg

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f85/garybaldy/webmedia-2.jpg

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f85/garybaldy/webmedia-3.jpg

It's the entire experience of the Plaza. The sights, the sounds, the smells.


Hilarious, Farsight. Of that list I've only called for Jarvis, Ramada and Portland to be brought down. I have said how much I hate M&SS, but suggested a reclad would do for that one because of it's conspicous form. I believe my reasons for wanting these demolished are perfectly valid.

"Have you ever thought about how a building might be improved or reclad or otherwise economically restored? No, because you're not interested."

Yes, of course I have. But the buildings I want demolished, in my opinion, cannot have their problems covered up by a new facade. It's the form, the way they relate, the ambience they create.
Oh, and perhaps you could consider that I would be happy for them to be replaced by much taller buildings.

"And amazingly you're not interested in new highrise buildings like Greengate or Chapel Wharf. And your favourite building is the old stone Reform Club."

Which explains why I have scoured the planning applications of these two projects, (and there are FOUR greengate applications) visited and photographed the sites, added them to skyscrapernews and written articles on them for the same site. Not to mention that I must have posted something relating to these two over 100 times. LOL.

My current lack of interest in them stems from the current uncertainty, that is all. I think it's the same for many forumers as well.

I don't remember saying the Reform Club is my favourite, either.




First and foremost, because he speaks sense(most of the time). And his posts make me laugh out loud, he has a way with words comparable to a twisted wild love child between Oscar Wilde and a drugged up Bill Hicks.




Which explains: "absolutely no way should you be a moderator."

Sounds like reasoned, rational debate to me. :cheers:




But thats just it with you Farsight. You're still in your 1963 mentality. However, it is 2006, and times have changed. The Plaza may have been considered beautiful when it was built, but it isn't anymore. It was built on a somewhat differently ideology, they had cleaned up after the war and had a bit of money to spend, so went a little crazy.

The Plaza is the result and today people suffer because of it. The bus station is a problem, granted, but the Plaza can shoulder much of the blame too. It's a barrier from Chinatown. It totally disregards the Britannia Hotel across the road. It has that ridiculous groundhugging 3-storey podium, and the hotel has another podium ontop of that! Not to mention the fact that the building is filthy, and it reduces York Street to a mere meaningless dingy backstreet for Plaza deliveries. Oh, and that horrific spiral car park ramp.

By the way Farsight, this is just my opinion. It does not mean that

a) I am anti highrise
b) I am a heritage lover
c) I should not be a moderator



How refreshing it is to see that Farsight still chooses to revert to type - i.e: make generalised assumptions and completely ignore what others have to say, only content to wallow in his own repetitive and unrelenting myopia and accusing anyone who has opinions that don't match his own of being the surrogate love children of satan ...... Me me me me me it is all the time. It's no longer tiresome, but increasingly hilarious, as I've actually gone past getting annoyed with him now. I dare say that people like myself, Caw, dgnr8 and a few others would even consider ourselves veterans in dealing with Farsight's incessant contrariness...in pretty much the same way that World War I veterans had to battle their way through the darkest days and nights but nevertheless lived to tell the tale. Picture the scene 80 years from now: Pensioned off ex-SSC forumer to his grandson sat on the marble balcony-cum-porch of his new swanky urban condominium 35 storeys up.... "Now listen up sonny, I am gonna tell you a little story, about the time we used to post on an architecture internet forum and there was this frightfully nasty and bitter man called Farsight.....oooh.....such a villain he was ...."

:tongue2:

Put all those people who love the building inside it then blow it up.

Time to go to bed before I say something stupid.

Put all those people who love the building inside it then blow it up.


Hopefully the fucker will collapse on you

Time to go to bed before I say something stupid.


Too late!

I was being ironic.

And I love Knutsford folk. I used to go out with a very pretty girl from there. Lovely lass.


Bloody good job too, if you call me posh again the butler has instructions to set the under-gardener on you....... :runaway:

Ahhh booths for the win...

Ahhh booths for the win...

Wine? quite agree, drinking one of their offers now, a full bodied Grenache/Syrah at 2 for £5.99 :cheers:

I do rather like their ready made cakes and buns...Booths is brilliant! I loved going there on my lunch back in my knutty highschool days...It was like the TC, a culture thingy...

Can be a bit pricy though :)

But you Knutty folk can afford ey? Whats a 5 pound loaf of bread to a royce...

Too late!

the demon drink....

To put the record straight, I was born in Harpurhey, moved to Middleton when I was two, moved to Barrow-in-Furness then Newcastle when I was fourteen, went to Manchester University, and now live in Poole.

I don't mind people having opinions, we won't all agree, and we're all here to learn and satisfy our interests. If somebody thinks a building is irredeemable and total replacement is the best option, that really isn't a problem. It's good to talk.

But there's something of an in-crowd gang who like to say "demolish the heap of shit" and use abuse to intimidate anybody who begs to differ. Not good.

Poole is very nice (are you from the posh part of Harpurhey?). There are some lovely 30's houses down there (and some pretty swanky modern ones too). Do you know Landfall?

Thank you Longford. The motto for Poole is "It's a beautiful place".

http://www.welcometopoole.co.uk/overview.htm

The part of Harpurhey I lived in was a absolute slum. Dire.

Sorry I don't think I know Landfall. Perhaps I do but it doesn't ring a bell. Is it the house next to the Sandbanks chain ferry?

edit: I'm struggling to find it on Google. I must know it. "Oliver Hill’s external stair at Landfall, Poole, 1938, adds a touch of architectural panache. The same house has a beautiful curving wooden ladder stair leading from the floor above the entrance level to the roof. Many Modernist houses had a nautical-style ladder for access to an upper sunbathing level..."

Its on Crichel Mount Road and the owners are really nice and glad to let you look around of you show interest.
Not the best picture but here it is:

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f85/garybaldy/landfall.jpg

I passed it yesterday actually. There's a lot of Art Deco houses round Poole. Some are very nicely reinstated. And local developers such as Seven are building some contemporary homes that sit quite well with them.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40699000/jpg/_40699322_thunderbirds203.jpg

Poole??!!

That is quite possibly the last place I'd have expected you to live, Farsight. I saw you as more of a Basingstoke or a Swindon man, myself, or maybe Cumbernauld. :)

Cumbernauld. Ho ho. :)

Yep, Poole, Griff. The town motto is "Poole, it's a Beautiful Place". Hence I bang on about beauty. Of course, you might better know the particular place where I live as Sandbanks...

http://www.boroughofpoole.com/graphics/gallery/Poole%20Visitors%20Guide%202006.jpg

Cumbernauld. Ho ho. :)

Yep, Poole, Griff. The town motto is "Poole, it's a Beautiful Place". Hence I bang on about beauty. Of course, you might better know the particular place where I live as Sandbanks...

http://www.boroughofpoole.com/graphics/gallery/Poole%20Visitors%20Guide%202006.jpg

put some towers on there and it'd look like Hong Kong

Doesn't Harry Redknapp live there?

Sandbanks eh? the boy from Harphurey has done well for himself! Square metre for square metre the most valuable real estate in the world is it not?.

Doesn't Harry Redknapp live there? Yep, and a few others. But the place isn't groaning with celebrities or anything.

Sandbanks eh? the boy from Harphurey has done well for himself! Square metre for square metre the most valuable real estate in the world is it not? I'm chipper, Longford. Could have done better but hey, I used to live in a council house on the Langley Estate in Middleton when I was a kid. It was rough, but it taught me things.

Aw, Sandbanks suffers from a bit of hype. Yes it's pricey, but not like say Knightsbridge or New York. And what's technically Sandbanks isn't thought of as the best area by locals. Adjoining areas such as Canford Cliffs, Branksome Park, Evening Hill (that's where Critchel Mount is), and Lilliput tend to attract a generic "Sandbanks" label, especially if there's a waterfront location or a stunning view.

http://www.bestwestern.co.uk/hotelpics2/83/83832/BW083832_w6_WB.jpg

http://www.bestwestern.co.uk/hotelpics2/83/83832/BW083832_w6_WB.jpg

Piccadilly Plaza would look quite good on the right hand side of that picture.

A colleague of mine did Liberal Democrat canvassing in (on?) Sandbanks. She didn't like it, because the super weathly residents weren't very enthusiastic and the houses weren't close enough together. I imagine she'd have liked them to knock everything down and transplant a row of historic northern terraces.

Bit of a waste of time canvassing for the Lib Dems in Sandbanks, Che.

Seems a bit of a waste of time canvassing for the Lib Dems anywhere but she seems the type who would have been very commited despite all obstacles.

And to be honest I'd prefer Cher, as not only does it serve to paint me less of the angry bedroom socialist but it commemorates a very dear moment to me when I convinced a friend that songstress to the gays and all round plasticised mess Cherylin Sarkisian LaPiere was the love child of Enersto Guaevara and was named in his memory. The people of Knutsford can be so naive.

Anyway Sunley, fix it up, make it decent, wait 30 years and knock the whole mess down and make the Gardens a wide and impressive public space surrounded by stately, grand and relatively low buildings. As compensation bang a load of towers down Portland Street and turn St Peter's into a garden of delights seven times the current size.

But for now some new windows and a lick of paint along the whole thing will suffice.

Noticed a bit of scaffolding on the sides (at the bottom) of sunley today; perhaps their preparing to paint the sides now?

They were drilling out samples of the concrete from that small platform last Friday.
I might be able to find out a timetable of works tomorrow- i'll let you all know.

Whilst sandbanks is nice retreat, Poole itself I found as rough as a badgers arse.
Walking through that town at night is like running the gauntlet. I felt close to a kicking on a couple of occasions, my only crime being the wearing of an italian footy sweater.
Makes Stockport look like Mayfair.

Poole town centre is struggling somewhat, Northbeach. It used to be a lively place down towards the Quay, where you could park your car. But anti-car elements within the council found a way to stop people parking there, and it's turning into a bit of a dead zone. A higher pecentage of the people you see around at night come in on a bus, buses from the better areas stop at 6pm, and the bus station is a burger and chips scroatville. It puts people off, and it's a bit of a vicious spiral that can be likened to what happened at Piccadilly Plaza.

The scaffolding at the base of the tower have revealed some cantilevered joists inserted into the gable. Whether this is a permanent canopy or just temporary to allow work on the gable ends i dont know - i was hoping to see Roger Stephenson today but he didnt turn up! I know the schedule for the oriel windows and reglazing along the gable ends was due for March and they seem to be on schedule so far so i presume that is next.

Reglazing oriel windows whats that then and where on the building exactly?

Reglazing oriel windows whats that then and where on the building exactly?
The north and south sides, according to the renders.

Reglazing oriel windows whats that then and where on the building exactly?

The oriel windows is a posh name for sticky out windows and they run up the spine of the gable as you can just see on this pic.

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f85/garybaldy/towercopy.jpg

Thanks Farsight - know the bus station you referred to.
Isn't there a train track which runs directly through the town centre (meaning you have to wait by gates when along comes an iron horse?

March for the oriels eh? So far so good - I've been pleasantly suprised at it's makeover.
There must be many historic buildings knocking around who'd had likewise treatment - victorian building with amendments carried out in the twenties/thirties etc - we just assumed they were born that way...there's a point in there somewhere but the little one's crying next door...

There must be many historic buildings knocking around who'd had likewise treatment - victorian building with amendments carried out in the twenties/thirties etc -

Love to be able to agree with you on that but its is only recently that 'sustainability' has been on the agenda. There wasnt much money around between the wars to refurbish anything and to be honest it wasnt really the rule of the day. Victorian buildings were either jsut continually maintained or allowed to fall into disrepair. Alternatively they just built spanking new buildings. And then in the 60's they just knocked things down and started again. You look at pictures from as late as the 70's and you will see victorian buildings in pretty much original condition - no one was bothered with them and didnt bother to do them up.
The only example that springs to mind is the old Piccadilly Cinema which was built before WW1 and then done up in the 30's and now its a Superdrug and Somerfield!

You seem very knowledgable Longshanks, I must have missed some threads somewhere - what do you do again, and why do you meet with architects... have you and I ever met?

There are examples knocking around though..somewhere. Not talking extensive refurbs and pre-war reclads but subtle alterations to frontages and roofs. Take a peek at old photo's of victorian manchester then (if still standing) compare them with the way they strut around today (the 20's/30's period was just a guess).
Royal Exchange springs to mind, but then hitler shot that building through the chin.

I sit on the Historical Buildings and Conservation Area Panel - its a council advisory commitee with a mix of architects (Roger Stephenson, Ray Makin) landscape architects, theres a QS from Simpsons and lots of 'heritage' people.
We look at Planning Apps. relating to listed buildings and conservation areas - so we see virtually all city centre schemes (and extentions in Whalley range!).
No we havent met.

which landscape boys do you consult with

There are examples knocking around though..somewhere. Not talking extensive refurbs and pre-war reclads but subtle alterations to frontages and roofs. Take a peek at old photo's of victorian manchester then (if still standing) compare them with the way they strut around today (the 20's/30's period was just a guess).
Royal Exchange springs to mind, but then hitler shot that building through the chin.

Yes granted. See what you mean. Yes Royal exchange is a good example. They took the grand portico down when they widened Cross Street and as you said Jerry had a go aswell.

which landscape boys do you consult with

Oh he's an old boy - retired now but worked for fairhursts for years and now teaches at the School of Architecture - you probably wont know him - Tom Howcroft.

no, maybe one of our boys do... Fairhursts sometimes come up in conversation.

Gotta get off to bed now, maybe we should have a chat sometime.

Thanks Farsight - know the bus station you referred to.
Isn't there a train track which runs directly through the town centre (meaning you have to wait by gates when along comes an iron horse? Yup. It does cut things off a bit. Crossing points are limited. But it isn't thought of as a big problem like the bus station is: Poole is a beautiful place, but the town centre has a real ugly face.