This morning I've been reading about the start of the new tunnel in Madrid (7.5 km for local trains) connecting the two main stations Atocha and Chamartin.There is already one tunnel and the new one will run parallel to it.There were complaints about the 500 or so trains that use Atocha daily and that it was time to ease its workload.Here we have to point out that New St Station handles more than 600 trains a day and four years ago Birmingham was denied ONE deep tunnel (local trains and Metro) which would have provided a station at ICC too.I despair at times !

The new Madrid tunnel was talked about in 2003,approved in 2004,and will be in operation by 2007.That's the way things should be done.

I wonder when the council are going to inform us about the underground report.This was supposed to be done by May.Sandwell and Dudley councils want to press ahead with Metro line two as soon as possible and are furious with Birmingham's delay(remember the Dudley line and Birmingham city extension were to be funded at the same time).The Black Country have said they will go it alone if Birmingham doesn't decide its future by the end of July.Shambles really....and bloody embarrassing for Brum as places like West Brom,Wednesbury,and Tipton will have a higher standard of transport than the city!!!!!!

Here's today's big news.Lets hope all parties start pulling together with this one.Biosonic,as you mentioned on another thread, the LPT had been carried out with the Metro in mind(I read the 200 page document too and thought it stranget hat they didn't make any reference to the underground).

Brum Tube plans on ice Aug 1 2005
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By Campbell Docherty, Transport Correspondent


Plans for a Birmingham underground will be mothballed later this month when the city council reaffirms support for street-level trams in the city centre.

A feasibility study, more attractive to central government funding, on light-rail operating in tunnels has now been completed.

The £ 150,000 study, described to The Birmingham Post by sources from supporters of both street-running and underground camps, settles on a compromise with trams in central Birmingham streets first, with the possibility of replacing those lines with tunnels in the long term.

It is very similar to the previously agreed phase one and phase two of the Midland Metro tram network, which was placed in doubt when the Conservative-Lib-Dem coalition took control of the city council last year.

After completion of the city centre line, the only significant tunnel proposed in the next phase will underpass Selfridges and emerge in Digbeth as part of a line to Birmingham International Airport and the NEC.

Officials from the city council-and the regional transport body Centro are working on a final report.

Both bodies did not intend to go public until the end of this month, prior to an early September meeting of the council cabinet. However, on Friday the West Midlands Local Transport Plan bid for £1.3 billion of Government cash for transport schemes included the street-level city centre line.

Explaining the LTP document's exclusion of the underground system, a city council spokeswoman said: "The section in the LTP containing the reference to on-street running was written by Centro.

"We are keeping all our options open and a report is being prepared following the feasibility study." The LTP is co-signed by Birmingham along with the six other metropolitan authorities and Centro-PTA and now represents policy.

The first draft of the underground feasibility study, which reported in May, showed a scheme with an overall cost - including financial risk and other factors on top of straight capital outlay - in excess of £2 billion. It allowed for only one or two subterranean stations, near the Pavilions Shopping Centre in the city centre and possibly under Broad Street, and involved the construction of two tunnels.

To be financially viable from day one, some or all of the metro future lines to the Birmingham Airport/NEC, Perry Barr and Quinton - already planned by Centro-PTA - needed to be completed alongside the underground.

Jerry Blackett, chairman of the West Midlands Business Transport Group and policy director of the Birmingham Chamber of Commerce, said the LTP decision to submit a bid for street-level trams in the city centre was " sensible and pragmatic".

"It is clear that is the option which would recoup the most value for money and to be honest, it is the only option that Government were going to wear bearing in mind the hurdle of cost-benefit is being set higher and higher all the time," he said.

A joint statement from Birmingham City Council and Centro-PTA stated a decision on the metro's future will be announced "in the near future".

so is this the good news we are looking for.....everyone is now to back the street level trams???????

The article seems to indicate that.Apparently ,it looks as though the council has adopted Albert Bore's stance of one Metro line through the centre but the rest must use tunnels.Centro have always said that there is scope for two more steet lines and this is were Centro and the Labour group fell out a little.The Con/LibDems seemed to have grasped the idea that they would never get a full underground going.Lets hope that everything now gets a...er....smooth ride.

Here's what we can expect.

http://www.centro.org.uk/Metro/Nov%2003/Brum%20intro.asp

why the fuck do they want a line to the airport, we already have pendloino's that can take you to the airport in under 8 minutes??

we should instead have a line going through somewhere like mosley rd,somewhere where i has a need of reducing traffic

connecting to the airport isa complete waste of time and effort

How the Birmingham Post sees it.

The perils of putting vanity before value Aug 1 2005
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After 12 months delay and a £100,000 feasibility study to investigate a Birmingham underground, an answer has been found.

Anyone expecting to see £100,000 worth of insight and new ideas had better think again. The light-rail plans for Birmingham look remarkably similar to the plans we already had in place before the Conservative-Lib-Dem coalition took power last summer.

The study was supposed to report in May but the consultants' first draft showed a project that would never have been possible.

It was too expensive and with very few benefits to passengers over the street-level tram network that had to be put on ice.

Everyone seemed to know what the feasibility study answer would be, except the politicians.

Everyone knew it would say: "Yes, it's technically possible to build, but so is Birmingham building its own colony on the Moon . . . . . . . . . if you've got enough money."

Beyond the fact it was always going to be too costly, the scheme itself was never going to attract Government money.

Apart from a few notable exceptions, the great shift in light-rail across the world has been away from subterranean systems towards bringing trams back to city streets.

In the last decade or so, Birmingham has tried to rid itself of an image of dingy, threatening underpasses pushing people underground to allow the motor car unhindered passage.

Everybody knows this is a dreadful example of mistaken priorities. Yet, it is almost exactly what was being returned to.

Birmingham people have been forced to wait yet another year with nothing happening to ease the appalling public transport alternative to rapidly worsening congestion and £100,000 of public money has been spent to state the obvious.

The compromise, with tunnels pushed off somewhere into the dim and distant future, will not fool anyone.

The ongoing delay in deciding between street trams and underground - and absurdly the city council trying to distance itself from the LTP document, which it is a co-signatory to - hints at some disarray in the local authority.

This whole vanity-led project smacks of the ruling administration playing politics for the sake of being seen as different from their predecessors.

Whatever happened to taking good advice from paid officers and experts and doing what is best for the people of the city? Or is that a little too unfeasible?

why the fuck do they want a line to the airport, we already have pendloino's that can take you to the airport in under 8 minutes??
That's a really good point, seems very redundant. We just need more trains on the current set of rails and better facilities at Bham International to allow trains to turn around there and allow more light onto the platforms.
Better services from the suburbs to the airport would be a better use of money.

Everyone knew it would say: "Yes, it's technically possible to build, but so is Birmingham building its own colony on the Moon . . . . . . . . . if you've got enough money."
Ah, nothing like a bit of satire to make a point.
It's nice to hear that this farce has been brought to people's attention.

Well much as I welcome some street level metro this will sound the death knell for some shops and disruption on a scale greater than the Bullring development. Corporation street deals with a huge number of buses and until the coherence of all regeneration schemes gel such as eastside we are going to have an interesting public transport system for a while - the bus mall for example.
Also lets hope that the aesthetic appeal of corporation street can be maintained and that Centro redesign the new street and surrounding route path to link in with New Street station redevelopment.
Im not a total sceptic but I hope it will be all right on the night.

The reasoning behind the Airport line itself isn't lets say an A to B objective.Of course ,if you are in the centre it would be much quicker to catch a train from New St Station but the route itself would be useful in ferrying people from Yardley to the Bullring for example.An awful lot of cars use that road and if a suitable alternative was offered maybe a lot of people would leave their cars in the garage.On current line one over 30% of users used to make their trips into Birmingham by car;I think that's quite impressive.A lot of people I know in The Black Country are always banging on about the Metro and how efficient it is.It must be doing something right.

when i grew up in sheldon - it could take nearly an hour on the bus to get to the city centre (thats 7 miles), on a saturday.

Apparently,construction will take place in small sections thus trying to keep disruption to a minimum.I think it's important to point out that an underground would also cause a fair deal of disruption too;they are currently building one where I live at the moment and it seems that every street is "up".

Another of the attractions of street running trams is the number of stops that can be built.Today's Post pointed out that for more than two billion there would have been only two underground stops ;one in the centre and one in Broad Street.This is a far cry from the initial plan which envisaged stations all over the city centre consstructed at a risible 200 million pounds.Where the hell did they get that figure from?!!

Here is the diagram that was presented last summer.Look at the economics!!
http://icbirmingham.icnetwork.co.uk/post/news/tm_objectid=14240386%26method=full%26siteid=50002-name_page.html

Well much as I welcome some street level metro this will sound the death knell for some shops and disruption on a scale greater than the Bullring development. Corporation street deals with a huge number of buses and until the coherence of all regeneration schemes gel such as eastside we are going to have an interesting public transport system for a while - the bus mall for example.
Also lets hope that the aesthetic appeal of corporation street can be maintained and that Centro redesign the new street and surrounding route path to link in with New Street station redevelopment.
Im not a total sceptic but I hope it will be all right on the night.

It is going to be interesting to see how we will be able to catch a bus in the centre of town, but I don't think accommodating buses and trams on the same street (corporation St) will be a problem - Sheffield copes quite well. The bus drivers are going to have to use the bays properly so as to not hold up the trams, and there may have to be a holding pen somewhere so not too many buses end up on Corp St.

The New St Stn redesign will accommodate the trams fine on Navigation St. In fact it wouldn't surprise me if they set up a tram stop AND a bus stop in parallel there as they have an opportunity to widen the road (maybe even bring the trams inside the station?)

Yes,the Metro stop is at the side in Navigation St.It'll be interesting to see how it fits with the remodelling of the station.I imagine this was another factor which forced the council's hand.......remember that New St Station will hopefully be completed by 2011 the same year as the line is supposed to start.Another interesting feature will be a perspex screen which will run along the ramp;to protect pedestrians from cables and to protect the cables from the pedestrians!

Yes,the Metro stop is at the side in Navigation St.It'll be interesting to see how it fits with the remodelling of the station.I imagine this was another factor which forced the council's hand.......remember that New St Station will hopefully be completed by 2011 the same year as the line is supposed to start.Another interesting feature will be a perspex screen which will run along the ramp;to protect pedestrians from cables and to protect the cables from the pedestrians!

I wouldn't be entirely certain that the ramp is going to stay. There's a whole lotta change going on with a few surprising decisions if the people in charge get their way ;)

I'm a bit slow this morning...of course, the ramp and its surroundings were in the 2003 plan which was submitted by Centro and the council with one of the problems being the removal of the corner of the book shop.I imagine a lot of things will have to be revised in that area.Interesting.

iok, i dont want to sound like the total opermist but the fact that the metro is meant to be up and running by 2011 and the council need to complete the new street re-build by 2012 for the olympic, birminghams transport situation could be totally reversed in the pace of 1 year lol!

The only thing that is stopping the progress of ANY Tram/Metro schemes for our cities is - and this may sound blatantly obvious when you think about it - The Government. That's who! They haven't got any proper insight or understanding about any of the issues or ramifications whatsoever. And they never ever will have any. I mean, why else are they so perpetually undecided and - worse - undedicated about every aspect of exactly what goes into planning, funding, building and operating these schemes? For decades, they have been using - and will continue to use - the notion of trams and metros and other integrated transport proposals as pawns on a very large and disorientating chessboard. Nothing more, nothing less. They have absolutely no commitment to funding or building any appreciable network of these metro systems - and never will do either. For them it's just a burden they have to occasionally put up with and deal with through gritted teeth or - more ignominiously - some minor irritant that they - given the chance - would rather see brushed under the carpet and forgotten about at the quickest available opportunity. That to me, sums up their whole attitude to funding expansion of metro systems and tram networks.

Unless, of course, it happens to be London.....

Truly, it stinks.

Martin G has hot the nail on the head, Central Government see's transport in the regions as a VERY low priority, the hopps and hurdles thats have to be jumped through, and even the then the schemes are not funded !!!

Its typical of the short term attitude to development and infrastructure in this country...whoever is in power and the whitehall civil servants, think in FIVE year chunks. As much as Birminghams new administration have tried to scupper the metro, in reality the city should have had a full system up and running by now, after all its been on the drawing board for 20 years. Could you see any scheme taking this long in supposedly poorer countries like Spain and Italy ?

i still cant believe the comparison between ourselves and other countries.

i visit leipzig in eastern germany quite a bit. one thing to note however is that shit loads of money is being pumped intot the area to try and compensate for the communist era east gemany had to bring it up to scratch with west germany.

....anyway, within the last 5 years i have been visiting the city, the aiport has doubled in size, a brand new refurbished railway station and new high speed railway line and in entire brand new uderground system............ all of this did not exsist 5 years ago and are now all fully operational...........WTF!

....anyway, within the last 5 years i have been visiting the city, the aiport has doubled in size, a brand new refurbished railway station and new high speed railway line and in entire brand new uderground system............ all of this did not exsist 5 years ago and are now all fully operational...........WTF!
This comes down to 2 things: the lack of guts shown by our politicians and the British public's incessant moaning against progress.

Politicians don't take the right decision, they take the popular decision. Whatever keeps the public happy and that gets them back into power.
Our governments, local and central, need to stand up and say, "this is what's best, so this is what we're going to do". Then explain why it's best - persuade the public and lead (afterall, we did vote them to be our leaders).
When the job is done, the public can vote them out if they don't like the end result.

On the flip side, there are the people who moan about any change, no matter how justified and necessary. New St, for example, should have been levelled and the area rebuilt within a year. It's not being done like that because too many people would moan about the disruption. I wish those people who don't want to be inconvenienced while we built a better world would fuck off into their own little shitty world and stay there. Then they wouldn't have anything to moan about.

would a rebuild of new street take only a year really?? if so thats surley a better idea than six years

Even if they could suspend all rail services (which would paralyse over half of Britain's rail network), New St would take, I would guess, at least 3 years to rebuild. And that would put virtually every other major project in the West Midlands on hold as the number of people required would be vast.

This way New St will take longer - but they can keep the station open and other projects on the go. I heard the figure 7 years being bandied around, with a start of 2008, but then London winning the Olympics changed all that....

thanks for that, just hope they get moving by the end of the year on the station

Having no knowledge of construction, 1 year was just a figure I plucked out the air. It was very optimistic, but other cities do get similar jobs done by intensive effort.
Myself, I would rather bare the pain and get it all over and done with in the shortest time possible. Obviously not with suspended services, but trains re-routed and then shuttle bus services in place where necessary. But that would not be a popular move.

I heard the figure 7 years being bandied around, with a start of 2008, but then London winning the Olympics changed all that....
It's good to hear London's olympic success is already having an affect here.

I found this on the net and I thought it might be interesting for this thread.This was the three line plan.Powers were obtained for the lines but central government wouldn't stump up the money.The city stations are underground.The Airport Line would have emerged in Gosta Green and Line One would have surfaced at Snow Hill.There would have been two tunnels.Central government at the time (same as the present government) thought it too costly.The local council and Centro didn't renew the powers and adopted the "bit-size" idea;to go for smaller options not exceeding 90 million pounds.Now things have changed again.

http://usuarios.lycos.es/nachoflorencio/metro.jpg

....anyway, within the last 5 years i have been visiting the city, the aiport has doubled in size, a brand new refurbished railway station and new high speed railway line and in entire brand new uderground system............ all of this did not exsist 5 years ago and are now all fully operational...........WTF!

Yes 4th richest country lol it makes me sick

hey, zenith we are the fourth largest economy, not the fourth richest country....we rank somewhere in the middle for investment and in some cases near the bottom......

yeah it makes me sick too xx

Been away on hols and only just found this thread.

Now there's a surprise - you aren't going to be getting an underground - big shock.

Those people who continually said 'lets just wait until the report is published' do you now accept that this was simply a politically motivated delay to the construction of the street running trams that was never ever going to get the go ahead.

£2bn - with two stations in the city centre - how on earth was this ever going to reduce door to door times and be cost effective.

how to solve the problem of overcrowded train services through new street??

SIMPLE LETS PUT THE FUCKING FARE UP TO DISCORAGE PEOPLE !

HAVING JUST READ THIS IN THE BIRMINGHAM NEWS, I CANT BELIEVE THEY THINK THIS IS THE ANSWER, PEOPLE USE THE TRAIN AT PEAK PERIODS FOO A REASON

hmmmmmmmmmm

Lack of light rail surprises expert Aug 30 2005




By Campbell Docherty, Transport Correspondent


One of Europe's most prominent transport experts has expressed surprise that Birmingham still does not have a light rail network.

Ton Kaper, passenger transport boss in The Hague, Netherlands, said the city and surrounding conurbation was suffering from political decisions made in the 1980s, when government transport subsidies were cut before new infrastructure was in place.

Mr Kaper was in Birmingham for a committee meeting of the International Association of Public Transport, a Europe-wide transport body currently vice-chaired by West Midlands executive Centro.

He said he had not been able to see much of the conurbation's transport systems but admitted the lack of a light-rail network was noticeable.

"Surprise is the word I think," he told The Birmingham Post.

"A city the size of Birmingham should have a light-rail system without any problem, it is certainly big enough to accommodate it.

"I have seen the Metro system from Wolverhampton to Snow Hill and I think it is a shame that it ends at the railway station because light-rail is very good at penetrating the city centre.

"I believe there are plans to extend the metro line into the city centre, to Victoria Square and so on and I think this is a very good idea."

The Midland Metro network has two new lines - one through central Birmingham and one serving Brierley Hill - waiting to be built.

Birmingham City Council has still to announce whether or not it backs the street-level trams or if it is to press ahead with an underground system of its own.

Mr Kaper recognised the difficulties UK authorities had in building major transport schemes.

"In the UK, you have had deregulation and privatisation ending big transport subsidies since the mid 1980s and that means you have all the advantages of not paying so much tax.

"But it also means it is difficult to build major transport projects, it needs longstanding relationships between operators and authorities.

"I would say that it is unfortunate that the UK deregulated and privatised before major new pieces of infrastructure were in place for cities like Birmingham."

Birmingham City Council has still to announce whether or not it backs the street-level trams or if it is to press ahead with an underground system of its own.

wankers

but do they really need to make an anouncement when they said it would cost over £2,000,000,000 to build one underground line with 2 stations lol

£315,000 clean up on trains Sep 7 2005
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By Ben Hurst, Transport Correspondent, Evening Mail


SOME of Birmingham's trains are so filthy that transport bosses admit they even look dirty after they've been cleaned.

The Class 150 diesel trains have been described as a "disgrace" and the "Betamax" of the railways - named after the ill-fated video player of the 1980s.

The 150s have been in service for the last 20 years - and public transport promoter Centro says they have not been spruced up in that time. Transport leaders admit that they could well be in service for another 20 years.

The latest admission came from Birmingham's Centro today as it launched a £315,000 plan to try to spruce up the commuter trains.

A further £400,000 will be spent by Central Trains together with £700,000 from leasing company Angel Trains on further improvements.

Centro's money will be spent on reflooring the 74 Class 150s, together with new tip up seats for nine 150s transferred to Central Trains from Anglia.

A Centro report said: "Most of the interior of the class 150 trains has not changed or upgraded since the trains were first introduced more than 20 years ago.

"As a result the interior of these trains, especially the floor areas is looking shabby and in urgent need of enhancement.

"Whilst the new seat covers have had a significant impact on the passenger ambiance, the overall appearance of the train interiors is still let down by worn dirty grey flooring, which looks dirty even when clean."

The class 150 serves the Stourbridge, Shirley, Solihull and Walsall lines into Birmingham New Street and Snow Hill.

Alan Bevan, from Rail Future, said: "It is certainly welcome that these trains are being improved as they are pretty decrepit, but we would really like to see them replaced completely."

Two years ago Coun Stewart Stacey, then vice-chairman of the West Midlands Passenger Transport Authority, awarded the trains "nul points".

He made the comment after the disastrous out of tune performance by UK entry Jemini, who finished last in the Eurovision Song Contest.

...thank god for that, i used to catch these trains every day for two years on my sommute from stourbridge to snow hill...they are truly awful!

what about us poor sould on the birmingham to coventry line??? we have to suffer those annoying tv screens

Date: 07-Sep-05
Category: News : Midland Metro
Contact: Barton, Mik - mikbarton@centro.org.uk

Smoother tram ride welcomed

Public transport bosses have welcomed work by the operator of the Midland Metro to make the tram ride through West Bromwich smoother and quieter.

Specialist track maintenance is now underway and set to continue for the next few weeks. The work will take place overnight and only cause minimal disruptions to services on two Sunday mornings.

The operator has given the assurance of a better ride following recent complaints by members of the watchdog West Midlands Passenger Transport Authority (PTA).

“The noise problem is due to wear and tear on the track and wheels, which is to be expected from such a heavily-used system,” says Cllr Roger Horton, Metro lead member on the PTA. “Travel Midland Metro runs more than 98 per cent of journeys on time and the number of passengers is growing so that’s all good news. We just want a smoother ride as well.”

Wheels on the critical centre section of Midland Metro trams are now ‘re-profiled’ more regularly as part of routine maintenance. To smooth some of the rails on the six year-old network, tram operator Travel Midland Metro has also called in specialist equipment which is based in mainland Europe and had to be booked well in advance. Costs for the rail grinding equipment to visit the UK are being shared with London Trams, as similar work is required on the capital’s tram network.

The TV screens started on the Cross City Line (first in the UK) but are not working anymore because the news agency (Onboard) went bust! I'd thought Central News could have invested in the service.

how to solve the problem of overcrowded train services through new street??

SIMPLE LETS PUT THE FUCKING FARE UP TO DISCORAGE PEOPLE !

HAVING JUST READ THIS IN THE BIRMINGHAM NEWS, I CANT BELIEVE THEY THINK THIS IS THE ANSWER, PEOPLE USE THE TRAIN AT PEAK PERIODS FOO A REASON

I am new to this forum and I couldn't agree more!!!

what about us poor sould on the birmingham to coventry line??? we have to suffer those annoying tv screens

What about us who live where there is NO train service (despite being in a big commuter belt in south B/ham and the existance of a perfectly useable railway line practically next to my house) and have to use the buses instead! Would no be so bad, but they ARE a disgrace, smell of p***, covered in graffitti, strewn with litter....

Hi Tetsuro, glad to welcome you aboard. I take it you mean the Kings Heath, Moseley line? I read not long ago about the prospect of the Woodbridge Station being re-opened in the future ready for the line to be re-introduced. When I lived in Balsall Heath 10 yrs ago I was saying then, that the Metro should run along it from K Norton and from Camp Hill, ramp down onto Digbeth for road transit.

Thanks!

Yes indeed, I do mean that line!! Last I heard a proposal to re-open Moseley station had been jepordised by a decision to site an extension to a car showroom on what would be the site of the station..... oh the irony! This was also a proposal apparently backed by the majority of councillors too, who were perfectly aware of the implication the plans would have on the reopening of the station... says it all really! Although Moseley was just one station proposed for reopening on teh line, along with Kings Heath, Balsall Heath and Stirchley... services would have run to Moor Street and a viaduct would have needed to be built at Camp Hill, to allow trains to connect with line to Moor St.

I like the idea of the Metro too!

Welcome to the forums Tetsuro.

They really should open up that line and the Metro would be an ideal solution.Five years ago this line along with ten others were looked at for possible Metro use.Unfortunately it wasn't selected.

You can bet if this line was in Manchester or Sheffield or Nottingham or Croydon (the other tram cities) it would have been equal first for developing. The south side of the city is crying out for an alternative to the 50 bus service.

It's a poor show.Mind you every city is finding it incredibly difficult to get any light rail plan endorced.The last government policy promised 25 light rail lines to be built before 2010(around the country).Unfortunately,none ,with the exception of Liverpool ,will be built.A sharp contrast with Spain;the plan is produced,money is found,and the line is built.This normally takes three years.Amazing!

I don't really know whether this is the right thread to place this thought in, but I think we already have enough odd threads, so...

I think it would be a good idea to create a new canal basin with bars/restaurants & cafes somewhere in the city centre. Maybe near Brindley House or at the back of Broad St? Maybe even demolish the council flats at the back of Centenary Square and redevelop the area near the Flapper & Firkin?

It would boost tourism and would provide an oasis (pun intended) of calm amidst the bustling city centre.

but isnt spain able to do all this because of the massive money it recieves from the EU?? face it we just have not got the money to build new rail lines, although i'm sure they could always find a way

but isnt spain able to do all this because of the massive money it recieves from the EU?? face it we just have not got the money to build new rail lines, although i'm sure they could always find a way

I think it's a question of what each country thinks is important.Central Europe has always invested in public transport (also many countries didn't get rid of their trams they upgraded them) and now Southern Europe is quickly catching up.Metro systems in Madrid and Barcelona are in constant expansion (Madrid is currently adding six new lines to its 12 line network).More importantly Seville,Malaga,Alicante,Tenerife,Vitoria,Zaragoza,Mallorca,and Granada will have new systems before 2009.

We also forget that Spain and France and others have lots of space in which to build railways and roads, whereas we are a crowded island.

The laws are stacked in the landowner's favour here aswell - compulsory purchases are much easier to obtain in many countries on the continent.

And we have NIMBY's :rant:

I don't really know whether this is the right thread to place this thought in, but I think we already have enough odd threads, so...

I think it would be a good idea to create a new canal basin with bars/restaurants & cafes somewhere in the city centre. Maybe near Brindley House or at the back of Broad St? Maybe even demolish the council flats at the back of Centenary Square and redevelop the area near the Flapper & Firkin?

It would boost tourism and would provide an oasis (pun intended) of calm amidst the bustling city centre.

There were plans circulating about this about four years ago.It would be a marvellous idea.

And we have NIMBY's :rant:

British Nimby's operate here in Spain too.They are trying to block the development of many villages but of course they didn't object to their own residences going up.

One best ones in Brum is an apartment block (King Edwards Wharf) was built near a jazz pub - one of the selling points.

Once the blockw as built and people moved in, one of the residents complained and even though more residents came out in favour of the pub, it had to close because they couldn't afford the sound proofing.

It has lain empty for 2 years now I think.

We also forget that Spain and France and others have lots of space in which to build railways and roads, whereas we are a crowded island.

The laws are stacked in the landowner's favour here aswell - compulsory purchases are much easier to obtain in many countries on the continent.



Quite true.Spain is twice the size of Britain but has a population of 42 million.Cities are extremely dense;Seville has a metro population of 1 million but you can cycle from the centre to the outskirts in 15 minutes.
Building metro systems is an uncomplicated business.The new Seville underground was concieved in 2002,monies obtained in 2003,and construction began in 2004.It will be completed by 2007.More suprisingly the local government announced plans for a new tram too.This was announced last November and construction begins next year to open at the same time as the new underground.AMAZING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

One best ones in Brum is an apartment block (King Edwards Wharf) was built near a jazz pub - one of the selling points.

Once the blockw as built and people moved in, one of the residents complained and even though more residents came out in favour of the pub, it had to close because they couldn't afford the sound proofing.

It has lain empty for 2 years now I think.

Yes,I remember that.I have heard that it's going to open again.

Same up here in Newcastle, the bars and clubs have been there for years and then developers create new housing areas. The residents then complain, but i dont think any bars or clubs have shut, but that maybe due to the fact that many of Newcastle's bars, clubs and restaurants are owned by about three main companies (less so restaurants) which have a big voice and alot of cash to allieviate problems.

I think the fiddle and bone is to reopen soon, unfortunately it was closed down due to noise, and I agree this is awful, but they did have 200 warnings !!!! and plenty of time over 2 years to try and compromise with residents

I recently went to Paris & Brighton and bars and restaurants coexist happily together, they play music lower at night although some had insulation

I used to like the fiddle and bone but live in the city and can also sympathise with residents as it was very noisy in the summer, its worth noting that the Flapper is a live music bar surrounded by Flats and has never had a problem !!!

I think the F&B took the piss !!!

ps, soemone has applied for a new licence (9TH June) and surveyors are measuring up the F&B building !!!

I think the fiddle and bone is to reopen soon, unfortunately it was closed down due to noise, and I agree this is awful, but they did have 200 warnings !!!! and plenty of time over 2 years to try and compromise with residents

I recently went to Paris & Brighton and bars and restaurants coexist happily together, they play music lower at night although some had insulation

I used to like the fiddle and bone but live in the city and can also sympathise with residents as it was very noisy in the summer, its worth noting that the Flapper is a live music bar surrounded by Flats and has never had a problem !!!

I think the F&B took the piss !!!

But the F&B was there before! The people at Brindley Point never had a problem with it, it was 1 resident at KEW that started it.

I know F&B used to get noisy (I used to go quite a lot) but it didn't have a late licence so it never went on that long. The Flapper is surrounded by flats but let's face it - the residents of those flats are not likely to complain to the council whereas some of the snottier types in KEW are. I'm just bitter!!

And it is a listed building so it would be expensive to modify. It's good news that it may be coming back - it's a cracking spot for a boozer. :)

Thats the way with residents comittees, its usally one busy body that drags everyone else along.....

I have actually had soemones equipment siezed (used to live next to an doss house and had a year of parties going on all night, everynight) it took a year to get the equipment siezed and they were very specific about decibell levels etc, sometimes the dj next door managed to get his noise level just right so it could just be heard but was not too loud


The F&B prob was live bands outside on the canalside !!!
If they F&B were warned the amount of times I was led to believe they must have had plenty of time to sort things out....I think they had financial difficulties also as one partner left and the other struggled ? this is all gossip so may not be accurate !!! and i believe thats why they eventually shut, as they could still have bands etc just not outside

the old git in KEW must have been able to hear loud music though his shut windows ? of they would not have done anything about it, unless of course he was a judge or councillor ????

The south side of the city is crying out for an alternative to the 50 bus service.

I couldn't agree more! The traffic on Alcester Road is horrendous on a morning... especially now the schools are back!

Where's our £1bn - Mids wants transport money Sep 22 2005
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By Jonathan Walker, Political Editor


Two years after Transport Secretary Alistair Darling promised an extra £1 billion to improve transport in the West Midlands, the region is to ask the Government: where's the money?

It should have gone towards boosting a decaying infrastructure and given impetus to projects like the redevelopment of New Street Station.

Mr Darling's 2003 pledge was seen as a disappointment at the time because the West Midlands Multi Modal Study, which examined transport issues along the M6 corridor between the Midlands and Manchester, warned £7.5 billion would be needed to unclog the region's roads over the next three decades.

But councils across the West Midlands claim that even the promised £1 billion has not emerged and warned that schemes, such as extending the metro or rebuilding New Street station, are in jeopardy.

They have warned they may be forced to divert money from housing or regeneration schemes on the basis that better transport links can improve the local economy, the paper warns.

Transport and civic leaders from the seven metropolitan councils tomorrow will be told by officers: "We need to address the issue of what has happened to our £1 billion."

The warning is in a paper to the West Midlands Planning and Transportation Sub Committee. The body is responsible for presenting transport concerns to the Government and includes councillors from Birmingham, Wolverhampton, Coventry, Solihull, Dudley, Walsall and Sandwell, as well as Centro and the passenger transport authority.

A spokeswoman for the Department for Transport said: "In the past five years we have invested £365 million in transport for the West Midlands, as well as support for specific schemes such as the Coventry bus network.

"This is on top of support for improvements to road and rail which benefits the West Midlands, such as upgrading the West Coast Main Line and the M6 Toll road.

"The £1 billion announced by Alistair Darling was to implement the recommendations of the West Midlands Multi Modal Study, and it was always made clear that it remains conditional on the West Midlands drawing up realistic proposals in the local transport plan which can be implemented.

Alistair Darling is a twat , he should not be in charge of transport in this country

Minister for Crap Eyebrows.

Wait for the London Olympics transport requests and the money available then, and watch us get the crumbs. I still can't believe that New St is overlooked in the priority scales compared with the London terminii. New St is THE most important station in the UK - end of.

Back on track Property Week | 23.09.2005Network Rail today unveils dramatic new plans for its development portfolio.

Years off but could be interesting for Birmingham too.

Blair pushes forward hover train proposal Building | 23 September, 2005Tony Blair has personally intervened to push forward the scrutiny of proposals for a high-speed hovering train link between Glasgow and London, giving the first clear signal that the government is seriously considering the plans, write Sarah Richardson and David Rogers.

maglevs are never gonan happen

Minister for Crap Eyebrows.

:applause: :rofl: :lol: :rofl:

What do people think about the following:

GET RID OF THE RING ROAD!!!!!

I was stuck on this shit heap of tarmac for ages yesterday during rush hour, mianly due to minor shunts and the fact there was an exodus from the city centre. It took me an hour to travel the 9 miles home.

Are ring roads beneficial to a city the size of Brum? Would a series of radial routes not be better at coping with rush hour traffic?

THE MIDDLEWAY IS A MILLSTONE ROUND OUR TRANSPORT NECK, much as the inner ring road was for the city centre.

I've always found the ring-road really useful for getting across the city (i.e. by-passing the centre) but I've never used it in rush hour, so that's a completly different kettle of fish.
I don't think doing away with the ring road is the right solution. If traffic on the ring road is crawling, I'd suggest building fly-overs or underpasses for the radial routes so that traffic on the ring-road doesn't have to give-way to traffic filing out of the city-centre.
Beyond that, traffic-flow problems are simply down to the sheer number of vehicles on the road and we need to start thinking about car sharing and better public transport.

Councils' £1m road charging research Sep 30 2005




By Campbell Docherty, Transport Correspondent


The seven councils of the West Midlands are to ask for more than £1 million from the Government to research congestion charging in the region.

After months of speculation, the move is being seen as the first step towards bid-ding to become the pilot area for a national, satellite-based road pricing scheme.

The leaders of the seven district authorities are proposing a £1.2 million feasibility study, to take place between autumn this year and next summer, to investigate levels of traffic congestion and examine solutions, including road pricing and public transport improvements.



Story continues




The money for the study would come from the Government’s new Transport Innovation Fund (TIF), a pot of £18 million over the next three years for authorities prepared to investigate bold congestion-busting schemes.


Wolverhampton City Council leader Roger Lawrence, who leads on transport for the joint committee, said the future competitiveness and quality of life in the region was at stake.


“What works today may not be effective tomorrow. Bidding for this money doesn’t commit us to any scheme.


“If we are successful it simply gives us the means to assess which options will work for the West Midlands and which ones won’t.”


While the seven districts are not yet publicly committing to road user charging, it is understood the West Midland business community’s vocal support for the idea has helped overcome political concerns.


Simon Murphy, chairman of professional sector lobby group Birmingham Forward, said the region “doing nothing about congestion is simply not an option”.


“We support the decision of the joint leaders. It is vital the region is involved in shaping how the system goes forward,” he said.


John Lamb, spokesman for the Birmingham Chamber of Commerce, said: “It is sensible to go for this, to ignore the opportunities that road pricing carries with it would be to the detriment of the West Midlands as a whole.”


Transport Secretary Alistair Darling is courting the West Midlands as his preferred pilot area for a future national scheme.


The pilot region will also have access to the lion’s share of the TIF fund, which is predicted to reach £2.5 billion a year by 2015, for substantive public transport improvements.


Congestion in the West Midlands is estimated to cost the local economy £2.5 billion every year.


Traffic levels are also predicted to have risen by 15 per cent between 2001 and 2011.


The TIF bid will be formally considered at a meeting of the Joint Committee next Friday.


If agreed, it will be submitted to government that day, with a decision expected in November.


Coun Gary Clarke, chairman of the West Midlands Passenger Transport Authority, said: “If there are major new sources of funding on the horizon, let’s look at the opportunity to position our region to be among the first to benefit.”

I've always found the ring-road really useful for getting across the city (i.e. by-passing the centre) but I've never used it in rush hour, so that's a completly different kettle of fish.
I don't think doing away with the ring road is the right solution. If traffic on the ring road is crawling, I'd suggest building fly-overs or underpasses for the radial routes so that traffic on the ring-road doesn't have to give-way to traffic filing out of the city-centre.
Beyond that, traffic-flow problems are simply down to the sheer number of vehicles on the road and we need to start thinking about car sharing and better public transport.

Public transport is the key, and you're right - the problems are due to the sheer number of vehicles on the road.

Flyovers/underpasses won't work because they are anti-pedestrian. Radial route underpasses might work I guess.

My opinion is that the road network should be organised so that traffic leaves the city centre as unhindered as possible. Once the road delivers people to their local 'centre' eg Yardley, Erdington, Selly Oak, Handsworth etc then the roads cater for the move to suburbia. Basically we have too much traffic crossing over the main radial routes, creating stop-start traffic.

An alternative is to build huge MSCP's for park & ride schemes. I would like to see this happen on the site of Selly Oak Hospital when it moves to the new QE building, but I suspect it won't. If people can park securely and get a return train/tram/bus into town for £2.50 I think they will. That is the only way the authorities could even entertain introducing congestion charging too.

I wonder what might happen to traffice flow if/when the Aston Uni/Central Fire Station flyover is dropped?

Government innovation fund sought to boost public transport and tackle West Mids congestion

EMBARGO: Not for publication or broadcast before 00.01 hours, Friday 30 September

Public transport bosses in the West Midlands are planning a joint bid, with local councils, for Government money to look at new ways of cutting congestion.

The conurbation is hoping for preliminary ‘pump-priming’ money from the government’s Transport Innovation Fund (TIF). This new fund is providing up to £18m over the next three years to local authorities prepared to investigate bold schemes – including road pricing – to tackle congestion.

“West Midlands leaders have clearly stated that we want to be at the forefront of the debate to find innovative ways to tackle the growing problem of congestion,” says Cllr Gary Clarke, chairman of the Passenger Transport Authority. “If there are major new sources of funding on the horizon, let's look at the opportunity to position our region to be among the first to benefit.”

“This first stage would be about investigating options before any decisions are made – but it is clear there is already broad agreement that any solution will need to include ways that, with Government support, we can bring about significant improvements in public transport,” he says.

The West Midlands’ TIF bid is proposing an in-depth feasibility study, to take place between autumn this year and next summer, to fully investigate levels of traffic congestion and examine a range of solutions, including necessary public transport improvements.

The West Midlands has already ruled out the possibility of a London-style ‘cordon’ congestion charge. The funding bid to be submitted to Government next week commits the local councils and Centro-PTA to investigating the role of road user charging, but not to implementing any scheme.

Congestion in the West Midlands is an urgent problem which currently costs the local economy £2.5bn every year. Traffic levels are likely to rise by 15 per cent in the decade to 2011 and a recent poll showed drivers rate congestion as a more serious issue than health, education and housing, and second only to crime as something they want tackled.

“Future competitiveness and quality of life in the West Midlands depends on finding effective long term solutions to our congestion problem,” says Wolverhampton Leader Councillor Roger Lawrence, transport lead on behalf of all the Metropolitan Authorities. “What works today may not be effective tomorrow. Bidding for this money doesn’t commit us to any scheme. If we are successful it simply gives us the means to assess which options will work for the West Midlands, and which ones won’t.”

Chair of the Metropolitan Authorities, Solihull Leader Ted Richards, adds: “This isn’t just about transport, this is about looking at how best to tackle a congestion problem that threatens our competitiveness and limits the growth of new jobs and housing in the conurbation, the wider region and the UK as a whole. This is not a commitment to adopt any particular congestion scheme, but it is a recognition that we must look in-depth at congestion – and potential ways of tackling it.”

Substantive TIF funding is due to become available from 2008/09 and is likely to reach £2.5bn nationally by 2014/15.

expanding local rail routes would help,

Day one for transport revamp Oct 10 2005







THE first phase of the ambitious Wolverhampton Interchange Project was getting under way today.

The £17 million project will bring road, rail, bus and Metro services brought together on a single site in the city centre to enable passengers to make easy transfers.

The Wolverhampton Interchange Project will involve new road accesses to the rail and bus stations, widening Railway Drive, and limiting access to public transport, pedestrians, cyclists and taxis.


* A high-quality covered walkway to link the bus and rail stations;


* An extension of the Midland Metro route from Bilston Street to the Interchange;


* Refurbishment of the multi-storey car park at the rail station;


* Refurbishment of the rail and bus stations; ..TEXT * A state-of-the-art information system to help passengers plan journeys.


Initial work will involve improving the main access to the future Interchange area through the creation of a left only lane and local widening of the Ring Road St Davids / Horseley Fields junction, and improvements at Corn Hill junction.


This includes traffic signals and pedestrian crossing facilities, to provide extra capacity and improved safety.


The phase beginning today is due to be completed next March.


Coun Milkinderpal Jaspal, Wolverhampton City Council's cabinet member for transportation, said: "The work will only be carried out in off-peak hours - between 9.30am and 3.30pm - until November 14.


"From November 14 until January 9, to minimise disruption, work will be carried out overnight between 9pm and 6.30am."


A temporary speed limit of 20mph will be imposed on the southbound Ring Road carriageway within the vicinity of the works for the safety of road users and the workforce.


Horseley Fields will be closed for about ten weeks for the diversion of underground services from January 2006. A diversion route - Bilston Road island, Middle Cross and back on to Horseley Fields - will be signposted.

Pilot project will reward people for not using cars Oct 12 2005
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By Paul Dale, Chief Reporter


A pilot project to reduce peak-time traffic congestion in Birmingham and the West Midlands will be based on rewarding people for not using their cars rather than penalising those who do want to drive.

Mike Whitby (right), leader of Birmingham City Council, said the region's seven metropolitan councils were not interested in imposing a financial penalty on drivers.

Coun Whitby (Con Harborne) was explaining Birmingham's commitment to a pilot study into road pricing, which could see the West Midlands become the first English region to experiment with methods aimed at reducing road usage.

If chosen by the Government, Birmingham and the West Midlands would be able to access a £2 billion fund for public transport improvement - raising hopes that major projects including the rebuilding of New Street Station and the extension of the metro network could be accomplished.


Coun Whitby told a meeting of the Birmingham cabinet: "The leaders of the seven councils are quite clear that they have ruled out workplace levies and cordon-style congestion charging. These are old fashioned methods and aren't seen as tomorrow's world.


"We are only interested in reward-led reform. There will be no ordering around and people will choose what they feel comfortable with. Nothing will be forced on us."


Coun Whitby said the region's approach, rejecting financial penalties in favour of compensating drivers for leaving their vehicles at home, had the backing of Alastair Darling, the Transport Secretary. It was the intention that motorists would be charged for the actual use of their cars.


He was backed by Councillor Paul Tilsley (Lib Dem Sheldon), deputy council leader, who said: "Anything we can do to get away from the very old fashioned technology of placing a cordon sanitaire around a city is the way forward."


David Bull, head of transportation strategy for the city council, said the region's local authorities would look at ways of developing innovative road pricing schemes in an attempt to reduce the annual £2.5 billion cost of congestion.


Mr Bull added: "This is about managing demand for travel in order that we can have successful regeneration."

Hall Green train station fails on basic public facilities Oct 12 2005







A suburban Birmingham train station has been named in a report detailing those that have the worst facilities in the country.

The Rail Passengers Council watchdog visited 60 of the largest stations in Britain and a crosssection of 60 small and medium stations.

Hall Green was among the stations that did not boast a telephone while the survey found many other traditional facilities associated with the railway system such as waiting rooms, luggage trolleys, toilets and clocks had disappeared since privatisation.

The report states: "Many also did not have features a passenger might reasonably expect to find, such as a public telephone (which was absent at 15 stations) or a clock (absent at 34 stations), while few had self- service ticket machines."


In particular, the survey reveals many of London's terminals had replaced waiting rooms with commercial cafes - though they are making a comeback at Euston, and Paddington is getting a refurbished waiting room for first class passengers.

Delays in £8m railway revamp Oct 14 2005
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By Adam Smith, Birmingham Mail


RAIL passengers face a month of disruption as the line between Birmingham New Street, Redditch and Bromsgrove gets a £8.7m revamp.

For the next four weekends customers will be forced to board buses or be diverted with journeys taking an extra hour via Kidderminster as construction work takes place at Selly Oak, Lifford, Kings Norton and Barnt Green.

Peter Strachan, Network Rail route director, said: "This major investment in the West Midlands involves the renewal of over four miles of rail as well as new ballast, sleepers and points in large sections of the area.


"The project is part of our commitment to improving the rail infrastructure in the region to provide a more reliable service for passengers."


The rail boss said he hoped the disruption caused would be minimal to rail passengers.


He said: "By doing this work at weekends we hope to keep passenger disruption to a minimum and have worked with train operating companies to provide alternative travel arrangements."


"We would like to thank rail users and our line-side neighbours for their patience while these track renewals are carried out."


During the four consecutive weekends between October 15 and November 6 buses will replace Central Trains services between Birmingham New Street, Redditch and Worcester Shrub Hill and Virgin Cross Country services to the South West will be diverted via Kidderminster.

Waheh the city center is getting trams oh yes

Yes ,great news about the Metro.Here is news about the Dudley line.See if you can pick out the whopping mistake.



Tram plan to be finalised
By Heather Loat
Oct 14, 2005
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Council taxpayers will have to stump up £100,000 towards the cost of bringing the Midland Metro to Brierley Hill, it was revealed.

The bid for a £139 million route from Wednesbury to Brierley Hill is now in the final stages. But in order for the tram to roll into town it will have to cross the proposed bypass being built to take traffic away from the High Street.

Bosses at Centro, which is behind the scheme, said a level crossing would be needed if the line is to cross the new road.

The seven-and-a-half-mile line is designed to have 113 stops including Great Bridge, Dudley and Merry Hill. At a meeting tonight councillors will be asked to rubberstamp funding for the work from its budget.

Centro spokesman Mik Barton said: "What councillors are being asked to approve is something it agreed to in 2003.

"But now we are in the final stages of the Metro bid we have to formalise that agreement.

"If there were no plans to build a bypass in Brierley Hill the cost of the Metro line would be cheaper but £100,000 of the cost of the plan will be spent on putting in a level crossing."

The Metro is billed as being a big boost for business with Merry Hill owners Westfield pledging £35 million towards the project.

Councillor Angus Adams lead member for transportation said: "The Metro scheme will have to cross the new Brierley Hill bypass.

"This is the preferred option as other options of building a bridge over the road or a tunnel underneath would run into millions of pounds.

"The council will want to shoulder the extra cost as it believes the Metro will be a massive boost for the town.

"Currently, there is no rail link to Brierley Hill from Dudley or Stourbridge and it's important to get that link to take traffic off the road and ease congestion."

For the scheme to reach fruition, the Government insists that local funding makes up a quarter of the cost which will include the £100,000. Work is set to start on the extension by 2007.

Eh, isn't it so that work is to commence in 2008 well that is the city center

Both are to start at the same time more or less.The big mistake is '113' stops in 7.5 miles!!!!!!!.Work that out somebody!

I was thinking that how many stops do they bloody want

More on the transport front.Taken from .....er.....tomorrow's news.

Public transport the answer to jams – says expert report
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EMBARGO: Not for publication or broadcast before 00.01 hours, Tuesday 18 October

Better buses, trains and trams are the only way to prevent gridlock in the West Midlands, a survey has found.

A ‘State of the Nation’ report by the Institution of Civil Engineers, published today, includes a new public opinion survey to canvass views on transport problems. It found that nearly three-quarters of people believed improved public transport was the best way to beat road congestion – and only one in ten said the answer was to build more roads.

“People are willing to get out of their cars if sensible transport options are available,” said Christina Jackson, who chaired the State of the Nation panel. “It’s time for decisions and actions – especially on public transport. Without this, the region’s transport will continue to decline and potentially inhibit economic development.”

The West Midlands conurbation has already made significant progress according to public transport promoter Centro. In the Birmingham rush hour, commuters on buses, trains and trams already out-number motorists stuck in traffic jams – but the Passenger Transport Authority, which sets policy for Centro, agrees much more could be done.

This week Birmingham City Council reaffirmed its commitment to the next phase of Midland Metro expansion allowing Centro to press on with plans to deliver the Government-approved project for trams on city centre streets.

Transport Minister Derek Twigg is also opening the latest park and ride expansion at Stourbridge. Centro’s free park and ride provision is the largest scheme of its kind and now takes more than 2½ million car journeys a year off the region’s congested roads.

More on the transport front.Taken from .....er.....tomorrow's news.

:lol: you are a naughty Nacho - I won't ask where you get these from ;)

Good work though!

That says it all really - there are more people on public transport than private stuck in traffic. Well I bet they'll all appreciate that! :)

Biosonic,check the general thread for more Metro information.

I have done - excellent news. Rare as well - BCC getting on with Centro ;)

Woe betide the government if they try to put the kybosh on this one! Bath Row should be getting some improvements then if they are going to shut down Broad Street for tram lines?

It's a short route and not too expensive.I can't see too many problems with funding.It should dovetail nicely with the New St Station and Arena Central developments too.I'm looking forward to it.

snds great news.

WAHEH bring the good times on

Very poor report by the BBC.Plagued with mistakes this one.



Underground Metro line plan axed
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Plans to run the next phase of the Midland Metro under Birmingham city centre have been scrapped after the publication of a feasibility study.
The Metro is a key part of Birmingham's vision for transport into the future and abandoning the underground section is seen as a setback for the planners.

Now, a new strategy is being launched, proposing a metro expansion from Snow Hill to Five Ways at street level.

A second line to the airport would go underground, but will cost £2bn.

Embarrassing

The Government has already refused to provide funds for tram schemes in other parts the country, so finding the money will not be easy, said the BBC Midland transport correspondent, Peter Plisner.

He added that the scrapping of the original underground project was an embarrassing u-turn for the council, which is now having to do a re-think on the next phase of the project.

The first phase of the Metro service runs from Birmingham's Snow Hill station to Wolverhampton St George's along the A41. It opened six years ago.

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New overground stategy!?!? The Airport line will not be costed at 2 billion.If tunnelled it will be 1 km at the most,taking it out of the immediate centre.

The BBC have been incredibly lazy of late.

EK - it is like you are texting responses :lol:

BBC is just the BBC that's why it's lazy

> NEWS RELEASES > DETAILS



Date: 18-Oct-05


Rail shake-up looks positive for the West Midlands
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Public transport bosses in the West Midlands have welcomed a greater focus on local rail services following an announcement by Transport Secretary Alistair Darling this morning.

“This looks like positive news for the rail industry, now we have to make sure it leads to good news for passengers,” comments Cllr Gary Clarke, chairman of the watchdog West Midlands Passenger Transport Authority.

In a written statement to Parliament the Secretary of State set out a new structure of rail franchises for the Midlands, which will take effect following the end of the Central Trains franchise in Autumn 2007.

From this date there will be a new West Midlands franchise to operate regional and local services, as well as ‘outer suburban’ services to and from London Euston. There will be an option to transfer Central Trains services through Birmingham Snow Hill to Chiltern Railways if this proves to offer better value for money.

“This suggests we will have a Birmingham-based train company with a clear focus on the conurbation’s journey to work area,” comments Rob Donald, director general of the region’s public transport body Centro. “The idea of having a single operator for the Snow Hill Line could also lead to greater efficiencies and better services for passengers,” he says.

The importance of rail services to cutting congestion and supporting the economic growth of the West Midlands cannot be underestimated. The region has shown faster passenger growth than London and the South East, with around one in five Birmingham rush hour commuters now travelling by train.

Councillors on the West Midlands Passenger Transport Authority, which sets policy for Centro, will be keen to see a franchise structure that provides for continued growth as well as more reliable services.

“This new franchise map could provide a solid foundation for improving rail services, but what will be really crucial is the franchise specification that will now be set by the Department for Transport,” says PTA chairman Cllr Gary Clarke. “We still need the reassurance that the new train operator will be required to provide the same routes and frequencies as Central Trains at the very least – and we will be looking for better performance and quality too.”

As well as the West Midlands franchise announced today, the Secretary of State said there would be a new East Midlands franchise and a new Cross Country franchise, to replace that currently operated by Virgin Rail Group. Discussions are still taking place with Transport for London about the inner-suburban services operated by Silverlink Metro and there is a possibility that Nottingham-Sheffield-Liverpool services could be switched to TransPennine Express.

“It does look as if the Department of Transport has taken on board many of the comments made by Centro-PTA and our colleagues in the Passenger Transport Executives Group (pteg),” adds Rob Donald. “That shows how we have all been creating good working relationships as the new structure of the rail industry falls into place.”

Centro boss Rob Donald currently chairs the pteg group, which represents passenger and regional interests in all the major metropolitan areas outside London.

Transport policy is best left to experts Oct 19 2005
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We can have a Metro but no bus lanes and road pricing but no congestion charge. Alun Thorne wonders if Birmingham's transport chiefs know what day it is...

Right, let me make this quite clear. I am not a fan of buses. In fact I would go so far as to say that I detest them.

They are slow, uncomfortable and invariably smell. Indeed, when my car gave up on me some weeks ago and it came to weighing up the alternatives for getting into the city, catching the bus did not even figure in the equation.



I've tried it before and it just didn't agree with me - it was as the bus stopped for what seemed like the 100th time during the nine mile journey from Walsall to Birmingham city centre that my soul started to ebb away.


Instead, living in the centre of Walsall, I had the option of snubbing the bus and catching a train, which has thus far delivered me to work and home again on time and with the minimum of fuss. I did spend one evening stuck somewhere between Hamstead and Perry Barr for the best part of an hour but it was raining very heavily...


But as much as I would rather roller-skate along the A34 than go by bus, I realise that they are an essential transport tool in any modern conurbation, particularly one where many lack any viable alternative.


Like I said, I do have a viable alternative but I live within ten minutes walk of a train station with reasonably regular direct trains to New Street Station. For how many others across the West Midlands is this true. I would hazard a guess that it can be no more ten per cent.


Now, after years of procrastinating, Birmingham City Council is finally throwing its weight behind a viable alternative, the Midland Metro, that, when all its proposed lines are operational, could replace the bus along various arterial routes into the city.


But that is years away so in the mean time many thousands of people will have to rely on buses whether they like it or not. And they probably don't.


So why then is Birmingham City Council 'reviewing' the status of the city's bus lanes? Well, according to the council motorists hate them and they add to congestion by taking up much needed road space. Remove the bus lanes, free up road-space for more cars and everyone's a winner, right? Wrong.


It doesn't work like that, it never has and it never will and the quicker the city's transport policy is taken out of the hands of vote-hungry politicians and left to the experts, the better.


The only thing that will happen if the bus lanes are removed is that more people will be encouraged to use their cars to travel into the city. It is what always happens when a new road is opened or an existing road is widened. Just look at the M6. It is now actually carrying more traffic than before the M6 Toll opened because people believe that it is quieter and whereas before they may leave the car behind or try an alternative route, now they are more likely to take their chances.


The upshot is more traffic. It happens every time and there is nothing that Coun Len Gregory, the city's transport supremo, can do to change that.



Of course I am working on the assumption that the city council wants to encourage people to leave their cars at home. I can't be absolutely certain about it but considering Birmingham's dire traffic situation costs the city billions of pounds a year in lost working hours and is the main gripe of just about everybody who works in the city, I would hope it is top of their agenda.


Birmingham and the surrounding conurbation just cannot handle any more cars, it is as simple as that. Although it is a coalition held together by a thread, the very fact that the seven West Midland councils have united to apply for Government cash to carry out a feasibility study into congestion charging proves they are well aware of this.


Birmingham City Council should be doing everything in its power, bar nothing, to dissuade people from using their cars. How is making those who use the bus sit in the same congestion as car drivers encouraging people to leave their cars at home. If you are going to sit in traffic anyway it may as well be in your own car rather than on a bus wondering if you're about to get 'happy slapped' by the weed-smoking youths at the back.


And it should be remembered people use buses, and trains for that matter, for a variety of reasons but one of the main reasons is they have nowhere to park.


In this office alone we have around 800 staff but less than a quarter of that number in parking spaces. Do the maths. That's at least 600 people a day who rely on public transport every day just to come to this office, one of dozens like it across the city.


Close the bus lanes or cut back on train services or increase the cost of public transport and you are attacking the majority of people who travel into this city every day for work and leisure. Make their journeys longer or more expensive and they will either grit their teeth and bear it, because they have no choice, or they will revert to using their cars and we are back to square one.


And it is difficult to come to any other conclusion when listening to the current administration at the Council House that they don't really care either way. As long as the car lobby keep voting for them they'll be happy. And as for those using public transport, let them eat cake.

great article some very valid points especially about local routes not being catered for properly

Buses and trains 'Brum's best hope' Oct 19 2005
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::.


BETTER buses, trains and trams are the only way to prevent gridlock in the West Midlands, a survey has found.

A 'State of the Nation' report by the Institution of Civil Engineers, published today, includes a new public opinion survey to canvass views on transport problems.

It found that nearly three-quarters of people believed improved public transport was the best way to beat road congestion - and only one in ten said the answer was to build more roads.


People are willing to get out of their cars if sensible transport options are available," said Christina Jackson, who chaired the State of the Nation panel. "It's time for decisions and actions - especially on public transport.


Without this, the region's transport will continue to decline and potentially inhibit economic development."


The West Midlands conurbation has already made significant progress according to public transport promoter Centro. In the Birmingham rush hour, commuters on buses, trains and trams already outnumber motorists stuck in traffic jams .

I love catching the bus and train to work, I enjoy it and efficency is all. We need more Trams witch were getting, more modern less pollutionised Buses and fabulous glamour trains that run regularly. Birmingham needs better transport it's title of Secodn City depends on it

I love catching the bus

:jippo:

You meet (meat) such intresting people too...

And Blunt I'm not always pissed. I have my Mercy Baby that I use for personal use and Business meetings, just to go to work I use the Puplic Transport that is available

I cunting hate buses.

Full of smelly fat bastards that sit next to you and breathe on your face. Cheeky swine.

And it's bloody pricey.

Still, I only have to put up with the number 9 into town now, which is regular, quick and effiecient, as oppsed to the 21, which took an hour to get into town when you got on it, and often didn't bother turning up so you were stood at a skanky bus stop in scallyville for 90 bleeding minutes.

That was a twat of a bus.

Full of smelly fat bastards that sit next to you and breathe on your face. Cheeky swine.

Sorry Blunth, I'll try to breath more considerately in future ;)

I honestly like the buses. We have a mostly modern fleet now that are anything but smelly. They run frequently during the day and on time during the evenings/night (I've spent the last 7 years in Hertfordshire where buses turn up every 30mins to an hour depending how the driver feels and the services stop at 6pm, so compared to that I'm in bus heaven now!).
I admit they are a bit pricey here. My girlfriend is from London and was a bit shocked at the fares. On the plus side, though, she still can't get used to buses running on time.

Still, I only have to put up with the number 9 into town now, which is regular, quick and effiecient, as oppsed to the 21, which took an hour to get into town when you got on it.
Try the 69 from Weoley Castle to Shirley - that really is soul destroying. It doubles back on itself about 5 times and at points it is much quicker to get off and walk.

I cunting hate buses.

Full of smelly fat bastards that sit next to you and breathe on your face. Cheeky swine.

And it's bloody pricey.

Still, I only have to put up with the number 9 into town now, which is regular, quick and effiecient, as oppsed to the 21, which took an hour to get into town when you got on it, and often didn't bother turning up so you were stood at a skanky bus stop in scallyville for 90 bleeding minutes.

That was a twat of a bus.



Join the club - I fucking hate travelling on buses too - they piss me off - they're worse than trains. And I hate trains at the best of times.

But without a car, what choice do I have? I can say that whenever I can, I walk everywhere - even if it is into Manchester (which I did twice last week) - a trek of some 7 miles one-way.

too many people smoking canabis on the bus for my liking

Too many people smoking on the bus for my liking.

If they could afford it (and they obviously can't but we can all dream anyway) I think every single bus should have modifications made to it in that the entire upper deck has sprinkler systems located above every seat, ditto the back seats on the lower deck where most of the delinquent scrotes always sit. These sprinklers then emit very precise and powerful jets of water once activated by cigarette smoke that only drench the deserving miscreant directly sitting below it, and no one else. That should be a good deterrent.

For even greater impact and humiliation, these same back seats on the lower deck should be electrified and wired up to a very specially concentrated 10,000 volt DC current, then, at the first signs of antisocial yobbish behaviour from these knobs, the driver then has the choice of switching on the current to instantly barbecue the fuckheads on impact or drench them into submission, or even better, carry out BOTH. They would look pretty fucking stupid then if they continue to make everyone else's journey a misery by acting like antisocial c***s. I actually suggested this to loads of drivers on my travels over the years and all of them thought it would be a fucking top idea! ;)

Birmingham Post 18/10/05

As of today a vulcan has been placed on every bus . If anyone acts antisocially he/she can do a vulcan neck pinch thingy and theyll fall asleep .The Vulcan will dress so as to blend in to the crowd.

http://dvdmedia.ign.com/dvd/image/startrekivce_04.jpg
a blaggard is dealt with on the number 33.

Spock is leading this initiative as seen today.

^^ :lol:

The next step I think should be to have a Darth Vader patrolling every bus - that will give the little cocky fuckers the shits.

Yeah out with the chavs and in with the Vulcans

Well, I see the value of buses, as a part of a sustainable public transport system, BUT after having to endure the painful journey home on the number 50 every night, I think there needs to be some alternatives, and it would be soooo much quicker if they ever reinstated the railway stations at Moseley and Kings heath etc

Obviously, you are NEVER going to substitute for the convenience of a door to door car journey, but options and choice need to be made available to people, especially those who may not own a car, or even drive.

I agree with what a lot of people say about the buses, yes we have got new buses now, but they all smell, are full of chavs, covered in graffitti, strewn with fast food etc... I have travelled on buses in many cities, and I don't think I have come accross any as dirty as Birmingham's! That is not to mention the arrogant shits who think it is OK to smoke, I don't care how addicted to smoking you are, surely no bus journey (not even the 50 at rush hour... or the 69!!) is soo long to make you crave one that badly!!

I like the idea of a sprinkler system. It would be better also if they got the police to patro more buses, or maybe reinstate conductors.... not in my life time no doubt! lol

too many people smoking canabis on the bus for my liking

And at 7 in the mornings sometimes as well. I smoke, and occasionally, have been known to smoke "herbal" cigarettes, but on the bus? And first thing in the morning? It's just wrong. I'm with Martin G. Electrocute the f**kers. Plus, too often, the top deck of the bus smells of urine. Electrify the floor. That'd stop it.

Honestly, nothing - ON THIS EARTH - would provide some of us with a greater sense of satisfaction, vindication and sheer ecstatic delight than the sight of a gang of odious chavscum/ scally wankers deservedly being fried alive and convulsing violently whilst bleeding and smoking from their eyes, ears and nostrils in a scene not too dissimilar from that of late '70s psychokinesis horror-flick "The Fury" - as they all get electrocuted into oblivion and reduced to charred tracksuits, flesh and bone. I would dearly wish such a gruesome fate to be bestowed on them practically ANYWHERE the fucking cancerous shits congregate. If it were only possible! ;)

Hello new poster here..

i have to contribute to this debate on transport in brum..
I've been using the buses everyday since i moved to the Hagley Rd in Edgbaston 18months ago. It's such a mixed bag. There are so many buses in and out of the city where i live that i never have to wait long but it's so slow in the rush hours to actually get in & out of town.

It's only 2miles to the city but can take over 30mins in the morning and longer to come out on a bad evening. They really NEED a bus lane. I know, i drive sometimes too they're shit if u driving. But! only so many people can move down this sort of route that car users (& trucks) will have to be marginalised for the far greater number of people on the buses. The stretch from 5ways to Gillott Rd (1.5mile) is so congested almost permantently.

OkOk it's only a small example of the wider problem (I'm not even going to start on the number of No11 buses rush hour) they have to put users of public transport 1st.. it's the only way to keep the West Midlands moving.

Problem is I would never use the bus to commute from a wider distance as it just takes too long with the congestion & frankly it's overpriced for a shite service. I'm sure many other people feel the same. More bus lanes, more buses and cheaper fares please.

sorry really need a rant after waiting for the number 11 in Perry Bar from 5.05 to 5.45 1 bus came about 5.20 and all the kids rushed it only for it to be full so half got on and those of us who didn't fancy the crush didn't even try. "buses every few minutes" my arse.. 2 came together at 5.45 (of course) but they run more buses between 10am & 4pm than in the rush hours on this route (and others) it drives me spare. AGHHHHHHHHH

They raise the prices and invest millions in the bus info displays & new buses they yet i'm often on over crowded buses. More buses in the RUSH HOUR!!!!

My last word i promise. My girlfriend is Dutch and they all cycle everywhere as do i when i'm over there. I'm seriously tempted to start doing it here but I don't fancy cycling down the Hagley Rd does anybody here do it? You can add a cycle lane to the bus lane i want for the Hagley Rd then.. hmmm that leaves half a lane left for cars ah.

Welcome to the forums Engels....good first post, hopefully if Bham as a city gets it's arse in gear on many issues your future posts will be rant free :)

If they could afford it (and they obviously can't but we can all dream anyway) I think every single bus should have modifications made to it in that the entire upper deck has sprinkler systems located above every seat, ditto the back seats on the lower deck where most of the delinquent scrotes always sit. These sprinklers then emit very precise and powerful jets of water once activated by cigarette smoke that only drench the deserving miscreant directly sitting below it, and no one else. That should be a good deterrent.

For even greater impact and humiliation, these same back seats on the lower deck should be electrified and wired up to a very specially concentrated 10,000 volt DC current, then, at the first signs of antisocial yobbish behaviour from these knobs, the driver then has the choice of switching on the current to instantly barbecue the fuckheads on impact or drench them into submission, or even better, carry out BOTH. They would look pretty fucking stupid then if they continue to make everyone else's journey a misery by acting like antisocial c***s. I actually suggested this to loads of drivers on my travels over the years and all of them thought it would be a fucking top idea! ;)

Hear hear!

Hello new poster here..

i have to contribute to this debate on transport in brum..
I've been using the buses everyday since i moved to the Hagley Rd in Edgbaston 18months ago. It's such a mixed bag. There are so many buses in and out of the city where i live that i never have to wait long but it's so slow in the rush hours to actually get in & out of town.

It's only 2miles to the city but can take over 30mins in the morning and longer to come out on a bad evening. They really NEED a bus lane. I know, i drive sometimes too they're shit if u driving. But! only so many people can move down this sort of route that car users (& trucks) will have to be marginalised for the far greater number of people on the buses. The stretch from 5ways to Gillott Rd (1.5mile) is so congested almost permantently.


Hi Engels (Any relation to the singer? ;) ) :wave:

Fear not! In about 15 years' time you might be able to catch the tram into the city centre from your home!

We rely on you to make vocal your support for trams down the Hagley Road!

Honestly, nothing - ON THIS EARTH - would provide some of us with a greater sense of satisfaction, vindication and sheer ecstatic delight than the sight of a gang of odious chavscum/ scally wankers deservedly being fried alive and convulsing violently whilst bleeding and smoking from their eyes, ears and nostrils in a scene not too dissimilar from that of late '70s psychokinesis horror-flick "The Fury" - as they all get electrocuted into oblivion and reduced to charred tracksuits, flesh and bone. I would dearly wish such a gruesome fate to be bestowed on them practically ANYWHERE the fucking cancerous shits congregate. If it were only possible! ;)

It's a terrible thing to say....
.. but I'm going to say it.

It's strangely comforting to know that people who smoke on busses probably WILL die a slow and painful death at an early age.

It's a terrible thing to say....
.. but I'm going to say it.

It's strangely comforting to know that people who smoke on busses probably WILL die a slow and painful death at an early age.

It's not terrible to say that. What IS terrible is that they feel they can inflict themselves on others.

They are the kind of people that get drunk and fight, they sleep around, they don't have REAL friends (just their 'posse'), eat junk food etc etc.

So they will be riddled with STI's, some will cop it fighting, they'll get lung/heart diseases and have liver problems.

Those that live longest will have arthritic knuckles (from fighting), basic pension (well, they won't have a proper job) and live out a lonely existence till they snuff it.

It's funny how life balances itself out in the end.

:cucumber:

Watch him grind.

The only downside bio, is that they breed like bacteria.

I know... I know... :(

They'll all become infertile soon :banana:

*I'm loving Angels instead* Welcome Engels no Angels Engels Angels it's Angels No Engels, oh fuck off how am I supposed to know :hahaha:

Scott Engels?

Became a Walker Brother with 2 people who were not his brothers.

eddie the eagle

It's a terrible thing to say....
.. but I'm going to say it.

It's strangely comforting to know that people who smoke on busses probably WILL die a slow and painful death at an early age.
The best "No Smoking" sign I've ever seen was one in the waiting room of my GP's surgery it read:

No Smoking
Maximum penalty for ignoring this notice: bronchitis, heart disease, lung cancer, death

Ha Ha, I like that sign that's inventive

It's not terrible to say that. What IS terrible is that they feel they can inflict themselves on others.

They are the kind of people that get drunk and fight, they sleep around, they don't have REAL friends (just their 'posse'), eat junk food etc etc.

So they will be riddled with STI's, some will cop it fighting, they'll get lung/heart diseases and have liver problems.

Those that live longest will have arthritic knuckles (from fighting), basic pension (well, they won't have a proper job) and live out a lonely existence till they snuff it.

It's funny how life balances itself out in the end.


I agree... what goes around, comes around! I certainly hope so in their case, people like them symbolise all that is wrong about this country!!

Almost amusing, I was on a but other day and saw a sign, can't remember exactly how it was worded, but it said something on the lines that tehre was cctv and anyone caught vandalising would be prosecuted etc.... However, there seemed to be more graffiti on this bus than any other I had ever seen... including on the actual notice!! Hmmmm, an effective deterrant, TWM,eh?

Hi Engels (Any relation to the singer? ;) ) :wave:

Fear not! In about 15 years' time you might be able to catch the tram into the city centre from your home!

We rely on you to make vocal your support for trams down the Hagley Road!

Definitly gets my support but i plan to move out during the construction then ... to Holland where they've aready got them lol...

What singer? I'm out of touch with all that modern Rock &/or Roll stuff.

Thanks for the welcome all :)

>

Date: 25-Oct-05
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Category: News : Midland Metro
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::.

Council support for Midland Metro expansion follows outcome of Birmingham underground study

Birmingham City Council has reaffirmed its commitment to expansion of the Midland Metro and voted for work to proceed on a route through city centre streets from Snow Hill to Five Ways and Edgbaston.

The formal decision at a Cabinet meeting on Monday (24 October) follows an announcement by council leader Mike Whitby at a press conference earlier.

It will allow Centro to press on with its plans that had already cleared the significant hurdles of securing provisional Government funding and getting Secretary of State approval following a public inquiry.

Following the press conference, Cllr Gary Clarke, chairman of the Passenger Transport Authority, which sets policy for Centro said:

“We believe the extension of the Midland Metro from Snow Hill to Five Ways will bring huge benefits to the city and make great strides towards giving Birmingham the world-class public transport system the city needs and deserves.

“Our task now is to work with the city council and other partners to submit the outline business case to the Government as soon as possible. We already have provisional funding approval and the powers to build the extension, which were granted by the Secretary of State following a public inquiry last year.”

The 3.2km tramway through the centre of Birmingham would enable people to journey from Snow Hill to Hagley Road in just 13 minutes. There would be ten, easy-access stops at street level and the route would serve the main shopping and business areas, as well as provide easy interchange with other forms of public transport.

The first Midland Metro line opened six years ago. It now carries a growing number of passengers and has the enviable record of being the region’s most reliable public transport system – but it was always envisaged as part of a much wider and integrated network. Another route from Wednesbury, through Dudley, to the Merry Hill Centre was approved six months ago following a similar public inquiry process to that for Birmingham city centre.

The next step will be to submit an outline business case to Government to confirm funding for both Metro phase one extensions. This could still be on target for completion by the end of the year. It envisages construction work to start in 2008 with the first trams running by 2011.

The implications of the Birmingham City Council decision for future phases of Metro expansion will be considered by the Passenger Transport Authority at its next meeting on Monday 31 October.

NEW ROW EMERGES ON MIDLAND METRO CITY CENTRE EXTENSION
Sunday 30 October 2005
It has been claimed this week that the Tory-Lib Dem Cabinet of Birmingham City Council are attempting to prevent the two-way running of trams along Broad Street. If this went ahead it is believed that the project would not be feasible enough to go ahead with.

Labour have been doing the accusing this week with Kath Hartley, Labour Transportation spokeswoman saying she had evidence that the Council were intent on restricting the use of Broad Street to out of city trams only. She claimed that the initial City Centre extension to Five Ways would have to use a new route through streets parallel to Broad Street. If this was true then a new TWA order would be required as would a new Public Inquiry.

The cabinet agreed on Monday (24 October) that they would press ahead with the street level extension in conjunction with the West Midlands Passenger Transport Authority. Councillor Len Gregory, Cabinet Transportation member, accused Ms Hartley of scaremongering and denied that he had a secret meeting with the PTA last week to discuss Broad Street. However, he did not rule out possible alterations to the proposed extension from Snow Hill to Five Ways via New Street.
Source: icBirmingham

bloody hell!!

Yes,the papers were pushing that news last week.Seems like a last ditch effort to scupper things once again.
Metrolink,as a tram enthusiast I think you would be quite interested in developments of late in Seville where I'm based at the moment.The first line with 5km of tunnel will be opened in 2007.Plan was devised in 2001,brought forward in 2002 and work commenced at the end of 2003.A full on street line was announced six months ago,it's gone out to tender with work due to start in spring.It too will be up and running by 2007 .Last week they announced two more lines.These should be operational by 2009.Regional government have a lot of clout and it clearly shows.I despair at public transport progress in England.If you need any more info on tram/underground in Spain fire away.

Nacho - there are similar stories in places like Lyon (3 lines since 2000 and another 3 coming soon) and much closer to home, Dublin - 3 lines built another 6 (yes SIX) coming very soon.

How on earth a city like Dublin (no disrepect to anyone from Dublin) has managed to get in a position to confortably be able to claim they will have 9 lines in the near future, whilst cities like Manchester and Brum struggle to move forward with one more line is a total embaressment to this nation.

Slight change of subject - Currently here in the San Fernando Valley, there is the Orange Line just opening - an old rail track which has been turned into a 2-way bus-only road with activated traffic lights on every intersection. This bendi-bus will travel at 50mph and connect with the Underground Red Line at North Hollywood - it's also a GAS bus. So much better than me getting a bus on Roscoe Boulevard travelling for an hour to the same destination - and I wont feel like the guy on the movie Speed!

here's the link (they had an open day this weekend and 30,000 tried it out for free)
Why can't Brum find space for bus-only roads through the swathes of ex-industrial landscapes? So much cheaper than laying down tracks and erecting elec wires. Doesn't this make more sense?
http://www.mta.net/projects_programs/orangeline/images/ol_interactive.htm

Thats what i said. But it seems buses do not attract as many people as trams, guess its the novelty factor. When it comes to cost, that does not matter to centro, its only taxpayers money they are spending, pleanty more where that came from!

Over the long term you'd be surprised how expensive such schemes are.

Once trams are costructed they are very cheap to run, buses however, are a totally different matter.

Miles more staff required to run them, average tram carries 5 or 6 times more people than a tram, therefore less drivers.

The average tram can be driven many millions of miles, the average bus needs replacing after a few hundred thousand miles.

Not only do the actual vehicles last longer, but compare the individual components, how many hundred thousand miles will a stell wheel last? Compare this with a rubber wheel.

Yes, trams tend to be more expensive as a start up (not as much more than buses as you may imagine) - however, these costs will be more than made back in savings over the first 20 or 30 years of operation of the transport system. (So long as there is sufficient demand on that particular transport corridor).

Have a gander at http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200405/cmselect/cmtran/378/37805.htm#a7

Sorry for it being Manchester figures, but you get the idea, you'll notice that the operating costs are less than revenues for trams, but not so for buses.

You'll also notice the price difference is probably less than you'd have imagined.

Today's Metro news.

Call for all parties to pull their weight as metro deadline looms Nov 1 2005
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::


Transport bosses say they face a tough deadline to progress with plans to build a metro extension in Birmingham city centre.

Last month the city council finally agreed its desire to run the line underground was not currently feasible and reaffirmed its backing for the street level option from Snow Hill to Five Ways.

Meanwhile, the Passenger Transport Authority and executive Centro had been waiting for the decision in order to submit a final business case to government for both this and another extension to Brierley Hill in December.


Centro believes this timetable is essential to have both lines running by 2011.


A steering committee has been set up so the city council and Centro-PTA can thrash out remaining differences over the exact route of the city centre line.


Last week Birmingham transport cabinet member Coun Len Gregory refused to rule out making alterations to the route, although this might delay the project further.


At a meeting of the PTA yesterday, Centro managing director Rob Donald admitted time was tight but reassured PTA councillors that Birmingham was committed to the plan.


"Two months to get an agreement is shorter than we would have liked but there is a true belief in Birmingham at cabinet and officer level in metro as part of their future transport plans."


He was responding to comments from PTA councillors imploring all concerned to "get on with it".


Coun Renee Spector (Lab Erdington) said: "How ready are we to start this timetable of work?


"December is not that long from now, it is a very short period of time and in my experience if you do not begin on time you do not finish on time."


Coun Roger Horton (Lab Soho and Victoria), the PTA spokesman on metro matters, added: "I hope Birmingham will cooperate with this because everything else has come together. As far as I am concerned 2011 is too far away, I'd have the thing built tomorrow if I could but the first deadline is December and we simply must meet it."


The PTA agreed to welcome Birmingham's renewed commitment to the on-street metro line and noted the fact the city council would like to progress the Birmingham Airport/NEC route as the next priority line.

"the Birmingham Airport/NEC route as the next priority line."
bollocks sureley there are are routes that are in more need of trams, the airport is already well served

Pirlo,it's not so much the destination as the route served;ferrying people from East Birmingham to the city centre.Centro and the former council wanted to persue the line from Five Ways to Quinton.The present council want to bring The Airport/NEC route forward basically because it partly fulfills their vision of the Metro;a short tunnel would take the Metro out or into the centre.On this point, both Labour and Conservatives are in agrrement somewhat.Bore said that after the City line was created they would prefer the rest to go underground in the city centre.Centro maintain that two more surface lines would fit in the centre.

City tram link on view
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
There’s a new chance for people in Wolverhampton to see how plans to extend the Midland Metro are developing.

Public transport body Centro, working with Wolverhampton City Council, has been amending plans for the Black Country tram route as part of continuing public consultation. A link from the city centre, via Wednesfield and Willenhall to Walsall, is being planned for a second phase of the network expansion.

A route from Wednesbury to Dudley and Brierley Hill was given the go-ahead by the Government earlier this year.

“It will be a few years before the trams are running, but we want to keep local people on board throughout the planning process,” comments Cllr Roger Horton, lead member for Metro on the West Midlands Passenger Transport Authority, which sets policy for Centro.

Public exhibitions this month will include details of the proposed tram link between Wolverhampton’s new transport interchange and the city centre, as well as plans to improve access for New Cross Hospital.

The plans can be viewed in a mobile exhibition at Chevrill Rise, Heathtown on Thursday (3 Nov), in Queens Square, Wolverhampton, on Saturday 12 November and in Wednesfield town centre on Friday 18th, between 10am and 3pm. Centro and city council staff will be on hand to answer any questions

still want a monarail though

Pirlo,the monorail suggestion from last week was a throw away comment .There's nothing happening on that front.

This will make you all happy...

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/a...1853842,00.html

Dublin is to get a new metro railway linking the airport with the
city centre, part of a multibillion-euro transport project announced
yesterday by the Irish Government.

New metro lines, tram lines and an underground transport hub at St
Stephen's Green in the centre of Dublin form part of a €34 billion
(£23 billion) project intended to reduce transport congestion and
make Ireland's outmoded transport infrastructure competitive with
the rest of Europe.

The Transport 21 scheme, unveiled yesterday by Martin Cullen, the
Transport Minister, is the biggest public works project ever
contemplated in the Republic. It drew immediate criticism from
opposition parties for its lack of detailed costing.

However, Brian Cowen, the Finance Minister, said that it could be
implemented on time and on budget. "We aim to get value for money
and bring in the project on time," he said.

The plan envisages that Dublin's commuters will get two new Luas
(tram) lines by 2008, while a metro rail line, to be completed in
2012, will connect St Stephen's Green to the airport in 17 minutes.

i know the monarail was never gonna happen, just saying it would have been cool though

Perhaps the Monorail isn't going to happen, but it's still a good idea. For connecting Snow Hill with New St, that is. I don't see much point in building a new standard-gauge Metro track down the middle of Corporation Street, just for that purpose. After all, they're only ten minutes apart on foot. "Foot? What's that?" I hear you all cry.

Anyway, hands up those of you who have noticed that the Metro terminal at Snow Hill is about twenty five feet below road level? By the time you've built a ramp long enough to get the thing on to the road, you're nearly at New Street Station anyway. No, I think the tunnel is a better idea. And this brings us to another interesting point.

Unless I'm very much mistaken, there's already a perfectly good tunnel connecting Snow Hill with Moor Street.

What's wrong with the idea of inserting a short rail link at Moor street to take the Metro through to New Street? This might require the building of a Metro-dedicated platform at New St, similar to that at Snow Hill.

Alternatively, and to avoid system overload at New Street, maybe the Metro could complete its journey from Moor St to New St at street level. It's a pity this idea couldn't have been incorporated into the new Bull Ring development,
but that's us Brits all over, isn't it? Complete lack of foresight....

The Metro could then thread its way across to Broad St, possibly via the Mailbox and thence alongside (or even elevated over) the canal parallel to Gas St.

Is that brilliant or is that brilliant?



Degsie

Anyway, hands up those of you who have noticed that the Metro terminal at Snow Hill is about twenty five feet below road level? By the time you've built a ramp long enough to get the thing on to the road, you're nearly at New Street Station anyway. No, I think the tunnel is a better idea.

Unless I'm very much mistaken, there's already a perfectly good tunnel connecting Snow Hill with Moor Street.

What's wrong with the idea of inserting a short rail link at Moor street to take the Metro through to New Street? This might require the building of a Metro-dedicated platform at New St, similar to that at Snow Hill.

Alternatively, and to avoid system overload at New Street, maybe the Metro could complete its journey from Moor St to New St at street level. It's a pity this idea couldn't have been incorporated into the new Bull Ring development,
but that's us Brits all over, isn't it? Complete lack of foresight....

The Metro could then thread its way across to Broad St, possibly via the Mailbox and thence alongside (or even elevated over) the canal parallel to Gas St.



Degsie

Welcome to the boards Degsie.The Metro will leave at St Chads and a viaduct will be built from there to take it to street level outside Snow Hill.Other options were looked at to take the Metro to Five Ways;one of them being passed the Bullring.The route chosen was the most economical.Anymore tinkering with the route would set the project back at least ten years!Believe me on that one.Nice suggestions though.

If we really want to sort out our congestion we need to sort out our local rail. Centro spend millions on the bus network and showcase routes, despite the fact you are very unlikely to get Joe Blogs out of his nice warm car onto a smelly, dirty bus that stops every 500 yards so some old dear can spend 10 minutes getting on.
Centro subsidise some routes I know, but they do not look after the stations, some are unbelievable, and do not spend anything on improving the 20 year old trains. The amount of times I have had to stand all the way from Tame Bridge to New Street, because the train turns up with only two carriages. Last week one even managed to delay my train to London when one of the Centro subsidised third world commuter trains broke down due to the wrong type of government or something!

I'd often wondered how they were planning on taking the metro out of snow hill onto street level. How does that viaduct idea work with the plans to build on the car park on that side of snow hill, i take it the metro is being taken into account with the designs for this site.

I always love the engineering that goes into building tram networks, with all the bridges, viaducts and so on. So much more interesting than an underground where you can't see what's going on.

I agree with Pete 2005 about the state of stations and trains. His grump was largely about Centro, and its reluctance to put more investment into the system. Mine is about Central Trains, for the same reason.

I use the Worcester-Bromsgrove-Birmingham line a lot, and it's no fun. From Barnt Green all the way to Hereford the line is dire, with no sign of any improvement in the pipeline. Worcester Foregate St station is a slum, with no facilities worth mentioning, and a general air of neglect (six foot high shrubs growing between the tracks, etc.). One gets the feeling that the vibration from just one more train will bring the whole place crashing about our ears.

The alternative route, from Foregate St to Snow Hill, is cursed with thirty-year old rolling stock which is continually breaking down. But then, it doesn't need to be any good to serve places like Stourbridge and Smethwick Galton Bridge, does it? That's the feeling you get, anyway.

It's just a mess, and the only answer is INVESTMENT. Don't ask me where the money's coming from, now that the whole setup is in private hands. Shareholders only want dividends, not the expense of new capitalisation.
This is one of the more predictable aspects of rail privatisation. Nobody could have forseen the effects it would have on passenger safety.

Other countries seem to be able to find the money for decent, integrated transport systems. They understand that you can't run a first-world economy with third-world public transport. Why are we the exception? Why do we think you can have a good transport system on the cheap? Everywhere you look you see cost-cutting; minimum staffing on buses, trains and stations.

And the result? One driver goes off sick, and a whole train is cancelled. Stations are falling apart, trains are filthy, system failures cause delays, passenger behaviour deteriorates.... and nobody wants to accept responsibility.

Perhaps we are near the bottom of the downward spiral, and the only way things can go is up... but I'm not holding my breath.



Degsie

I'd often wondered how they were planning on taking the metro out of snow hill onto street level. How does that viaduct idea work with the plans to build on the car park on that side of snow hill, i take it the metro is being taken into account with the designs for this site.

.

If I remember correctly the viaduct will be nestled next to Snow Hill.It'll be interesting to see how the adjoining site will develop.

Welcome Degsie... another grumpy arse brummie... you'll fit right in ;)

:wave:

I always love the engineering that goes into building tram networks, with all the bridges, viaducts and so on. So much more interesting than an underground where you can't see what's going on.

A bridge will also be built to take the Metro over Queensway.Probably look quite cool with all the new talls in the background.The Dudley line will have all types of things built to help it through the Black Country.

Unless I'm very much mistaken, there's already a perfectly good tunnel connecting Snow Hill with Moor Street.

What's wrong with the idea of inserting a short rail link at Moor street to take the Metro through to New Street? This might require the building of a Metro-dedicated platform at New St, similar to that at Snow Hill....
Nice idea Degsie, pity you weren't on the planning committee.

Alternatively, and to avoid system overload at New Street, maybe the Metro could complete its journey from Moor St to New St at street level. It's a pity this idea couldn't have been incorporated into the new Bull Ring development ...
That would still have been possible using the tunnel under the Bullring, which is currently used by buses but not used much - especially the carriageway running towards New St. I'm sure we could have squeezed two metro tracks under there. How cool would that have been!

A bridge will also be built to take the Metro over Queensway.Probably look quite cool with all the new talls in the background.The Dudley line will have all types of things built to help it through the Black Country.

Cool! On the bridge over the queensway, i wonder what would happen when/if paradise circus gets developed? Would they have to close that end of the line and reconfigure the track? Who knows.

I'm impressed with the trams in Sheffield. Although i rarely need to use them, when i do, they are quick and smooth. I wish they would put bigger trams on the midland metro, like the ones here in sheffield, surely those tiny things get rammed at rush hour.

Well, if anyone used them they would.:D

Cool! On the bridge over the queensway, i wonder what would happen when/if paradise circus gets developed? .

Jolon it's not the bridge that is there at the moment.A new bridge will be built.As the Metro passes the Town Hall it will cross just after it.Paradise Circus development wouldn't affect it.

Jolon it's not the bridge that is there at the moment.A new bridge will be built.As the Metro passes the Town Hall it will cross just after it.Paradise Circus development wouldn't affect it.

Ok. Thanks for clearing that up.

I agree with Pete 2005 about the state of stations and trains. His grump was largely about Centro, and its reluctance to put more investment into the system. Mine is about Central Trains, for the same reason.

I use the Worcester-Bromsgrove-Birmingham line a lot, and it's no fun. From Barnt Green all the way to Hereford the line is dire, with no sign of any improvement in the pipeline. Worcester Foregate St station is a slum, with no facilities worth mentioning, and a general air of neglect (six foot high shrubs growing between the tracks, etc.). One gets the feeling that the vibration from just one more train will bring the whole place crashing about our ears.

The alternative route, from Foregate St to Snow Hill, is cursed with thirty-year old rolling stock which is continually breaking down. But then, it doesn't need to be any good to serve places like Stourbridge and Smethwick Galton Bridge, does it? That's the feeling you get, anyway.

It's just a mess, and the only answer is INVESTMENT. Don't ask me where the money's coming from, now that the whole setup is in private hands. Shareholders only want dividends, not the expense of new capitalisation.
This is one of the more predictable aspects of rail privatisation. Nobody could have forseen the effects it would have on passenger safety.

Other countries seem to be able to find the money for decent, integrated transport systems. They understand that you can't run a first-world economy with third-world public transport. Why are we the exception? Why do we think you can have a good transport system on the cheap? Everywhere you look you see cost-cutting; minimum staffing on buses, trains and stations.

Degsie

I think that the privatised system can work, but needs more 'control'. Whats to stop Central from running crap services, as far as central concerned you either put up or shut up, they have nothing to worry about. There needs to be big fines for the companies when they provide a service below a certain standard, in thehe same as schools are put into special messures when they are failing, except this needs to hit central in the pocket. Plus centro should be able to cap price increases to stop them from passing on these costs to joe public.

Talking of bad stations, Duddeston , station before NStreet on the Stafford line, total discrace.

http://www.railaroundbirmingham.co.uk/Photos/duddeston_station_from_lichfield_platform_towards_aston.JPG
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/collins56/duddeston_disused_platform_sidings_.jpg

What you cant see in the photo's is the amount of vandalism as well.

This station, 'maintained' (so the sign says) by Centro, is effectivley a gateway into the city on this line!
And before people get their Tory bashing privatisation hats on, Centro/WPTA is made up of a lot of our local Labour councillors if i am not mistaken!

...,

???

Light rail is still in the running, says Centro Nov 7 2005


The Government's decision to shelve plans for a tram system in Leeds do not jeopardise light rail schemes in the West Midlands, according to public transport bosses.

Instead of investing in the Leeds Supertram project, Transport Secretary Alistair Darling favours spending money on more frequent bus services using new vehicles, dismissing costs for the tram scheme as too expensive.

This follows similar refusals for schemes in Liverpool and Manchester.



After a year's delay while Birmingham City Council conducted a feasibility study into an underground system, Centro plan to submit the final business case for the longplanned street level Midland Metro extensions through central Birmingham and to Brierley Hill in December.


Many now believe the Government has gone cold on light rail and this next £200 million metro phase will also get canned by Mr Darling.


Centro, which promotes metro in the West Midlands, remains confident.


A spokesman said: "We already have Transport and Works Act powers to build and we have positive business cases for both lines. It is not a foregone conclusion and we recognise costs will have risen with inflation during the past year but we know there is a solid case there."


Public transport lobby group Transport 2000 has criticised Mr Darling's decision over Supertram and warned a similar move in the West Midlands would be disastrous.


Campaigner Meera Rambissoon said: "With many more decisions like this, our transport network will get stuck in a rut.


"The provision of modern and efficient network links is vital to the economic performance and sustainability of our city regions and essential if the Government's objectives of regenerating regional economies, managing road congestion and tackling social exclusion are to be met."

is anywhere in this country gonna be allowed a tram system my mr darling

well looks like we are just bout to find out

I just don't get it. How are we supposed to get around our cities?
If we all travel by car the roads would be gridlocked - the government acknowledges that and it is government policy (is it not?) to fund better public transport.
But ... we're not investing in trams, 'cos they're too expensive. It's clear there's hardly any investment in the train network (okay, we're getting round to replacing the rolling stock, but we need more trains running on more lines with more stations if we want the masses to travel by train). By this logic, all the investment must be going into buses, so we should have some pretty fucking world-class bus services in our towns and cities. But we don't.
Just where is the money going? What exactly is government policy? Do they have one?

The way it looks to me, folks, is that the government (I refuse to use a capital "G") has no intention of putting money in at all.

It's looking for ways of doing the job on the cheap. Investing in railways and tramways is expensive because of the initial outlay in track and rolling stock. It's difficult to attract private capital to such ventures because they're essentially long-term investments. Just like the Channel Tunnel, it can take a very long time indeed for investment to pay off.

If you think this is anything new, read the history of any rail or tramway project from the late nineteenth century onwards. Nobody wanted to put money into transport schemes.

This is why the most successful and effective transport services have been provide by local municipalities. The worst thing that ever happened to public transport in Birmingham was the abolition of the City of Birmingham Transport Committee. Blame Mrs. Thatcher. But I think it's significant that the Metro, which is by far the most important transport initiative in the pipeline at the moment, is largely the brainchild of the local authority. Perhaps effective public services can be provided only by public bodies.

Unless, of course, we go for a different approach.

Why do people use transport? To get from A to B? That's the obvious answer. To get, for instance, from home to work and back. Take away transport, in all its forms, and nobody would be able to get to work. Or go shopping.

So why not impose a transport tax on supermarkets and places of work? Say, for example, each workplace paying the cost of every employee's travel to work and back, not to the employee, but to the transport department of the local authority or transport provider?

Or, for instance, Tesco's paying a small proportion of each checkout transaction to the same authority? Sure, they would probably pass on the increased costs to the customer, but that would only encourage the customer to travel to the supermarket by public transport. And this would be offset by the company's need to remain competitive.

These measures would raise vast quantities of money to be spent on public transport (it would not be available for any other purpose, hopefully).
So much so, in fact, that it might be possible to make the resulting transport systems free to the passenger.....

Or am I just having a lovely dream?


Degsie.

'Buy rival airport and then flatten it'

Nov 7 2005

Birmingham International Airport should buy Coventry Airport, demolish it and build houses on the site instead, according to a leading Midlands business expert.

John Kirk, head of business development at the University of Central England, said the burgeoning passenger operation at Coventry was a " non-starter" but if BIA feels it is harming its own expansion plans it should simply take it over.

Mr Kirk is no stranger to airport competition - he was also the head of public relations at Manchester Airport during its own expansion in the early 1990s, when the larger airport's plans were compromised by those of the much smaller Liverpool Airport.

Last week, BIA published its draft master plan for growing to cope with threetimes the passenger demand over the next 25 years.

The £ 1.5 billion plan includes an extension to the current runway, a third terminal and a second runway.

Managing director Richard Heard has repeated his concern that the existence of Coventry Airport just 11 miles away "compromised" those plans.

"I have seen this all before when I was at Manchester," said Mr Kirk. "We always had this with Liverpool who were threatening to expand all the time.

"But you need some corporate muscle to grow an airport, you need some market visibility because airlines are just going to ask Coventry why they should take a leap of faith by going there rather than Birmingham.

"It costs a lot of money to introduce a new plane to an airport - when I was at Manchester an airline introducing a new 767 cost a quarter of a million.

"But the fact of the matter is that Coventry is starting from scratch and it is going to take hundreds of millions of pounds to introduce the kind of infrastructure required to entice business from new airlines."

Last month, reports suggested Coventry owners TUI had offered the airport to BIA.

Overall, Mr Kirk believes the BIA plan is an "economic imperative" but warned the airport it would not be easy to realise.

"We went through all this at Manchester 15 years ago. It is all very familiar.

"We used to regard BIA as a bit of a minnow, with a short runway and a small terminal. We used to come down to nick their business.

"But an airport is just a piece of real estate and their real customers are the airlines. Building a runway alone costs something like £100 million. You have to raise that money from somewhere."

He added: "Expanding an airport is a bit of a catch-22 because you can only build the new runway when you have the business but you only get the business when you have the runway.

"BIA certainly has to crank up it's marketing to the world's airlines to persuade them to operate services from there rather than Heathrow, Gatwick, Manchester. Amsterdam and the like."

The BIA plans were " realistic" he added because it was to attract medium haul flights.

BIA is consulting on its draft master plan and aims to present a finished document to Solihull Council next year....

^^^ This is a great idea. Coventry airport is good land for redevelopment and it would also solve the problems of overcrowded airspace near Brum. £30 million isn't much and I am sure they could barter them down anyway.

Then once that's done, BIA can focus on their runway extension and terminal upgrades.

So why not impose a transport tax on supermarkets and places of work? Say, for example, each workplace paying the cost of every employee's travel to work and back, not to the employee, but to the transport department of the local authority or transport provider?
Sounds like a good, if somewhat controversial, idea Degsie.
But one thing that all governments tend to agree on is that controversial ideas should be ignored because they're not vote-winners and good ideas should be shelved until critically required.
Maybe when the whole country grinds to a halt the government, whichever it may be at the time, will find the guts to do something radical - and by that time it will need to be radical.

Coventry airport is good land for redevelopment and it would also solve the problems of overcrowded airspace near Brum ..
.. and maybe the houses BIA build could be offered free/discounted to the residents around Birmingham airport who can't stand the air traffic noise.

Going back to Degsie's point - of course if everyone shopped on their local high st (and the shops were open late enough for people to drop in after work) then there would be no need to go to the supermarket so often. I used to get daily supplies when I was at uni from my local shops - they were great!

And Steve - brilliant idea! :) The locals could swap their houses near BIA for Cov ones. They wouldn't do it en masse of course - too inconvenient for Brum.

Of course (as with the case at Heathrow) - the airport was there way before most of the locals... ;)

This looks interesting.

In Friday's Birmingham Post Nov 10 2005
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::.

Birmingham's city centre Queensway tunnels, notorious for traffic chaos, could be lengthened under plans being considered by Labour councillors.

A party think tank is proposing connecting the St Chad's and Queensway tunnels to make Great Charles Street a "pedestrian-friendly boulevard".

The scheme, involving building a new tunnel, would reconnect the central business district to the Jewellery Quarter and make it easier for people to move between the two areas, according to Labour.

The idea, which was first floated in the 1980s, is contained in a policy discussion document which sets out the views of the city council's Labour opposition group on the growth of Birmingham up to 2015.

That'd be lovely.

Good idea Great Charles St is a real barrier between the city and the jewellery quarter, plus the tunnelling around there looks a real mess. I think the same could be done with the holloway circus tunnel and Queensway, creating a boulevard infront of the mailbox, orion etc

sorry just posted it on the birmingham thread.

wonder when the tunnel is going to get its proposed cleaning?

You should never clean a tunnel. Any mole will tell you that.....

Well we are no mole!! We are civillized Human Beings that if need to will clean a hole.. It is for the prupose of anything that you might think, anything Moley.. But as posted above by Nacho it will benefit the city if the tunnels get a spruce up and a new tunnel is built.....

Manchester have announced congestion charging from 2010 - probably to get the tram funding, and idea if Birmingham likely to follow suit?

The answer is yes...

alerts@gnn-nds.co.uk <alerts@gnn-nds.co.uk> 28 November 2005 11:55
To: kurtlstephens@gmail.com

Click here to view the page and associated media
http://www.gnn.gov.uk/content/detail.asp?ReleaseID=179352&NewsAreaID=2&HUserID=878,779,885,855,782,871,881,845,765,674,677,767,684,762,718,674,708,683,706,718,674
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28/11/2005 11:19

Department for Transport (National)


TACKLING CONGESTION - NEXT STEPS




Local authorities in seven areas across the country will share over £7 million to explore innovative ways to tackle local congestion as a further step towards longer term national decisions on road pricing, Transport Secretary Alistair Darling said today.




Local authorities in seven areas across the country will share over £7 million to explore innovative ways to tackle local congestion as a further step towards longer term national decisions on road pricing, Transport Secretary Alistair Darling said today.

The authorities successfully bid for money from an £18m fund set up to support the development of transport schemes that feature demand management as part of efforts to tackle local congestion and public transport.

Last year, the Government's road pricing feasibility study recommended that local or regional schemes should be piloted to test approaches as road pricing is further developed. This investment is part of the Government's work to take forward local and regional schemes that explore the potential for a national road pricing scheme.

The seven areas are:

* Bristol City Council, Bath and North East Council, North Somerset Council and South Gloucestershire Council

* Cambridgeshire

* Durham County Council (for Durham City)

* Greater Manchester

* Shropshire County Council (for Shrewsbury)

* Tyne and Wear

* West Midlands conurbation

The authorities will now assess the feasibility of schemes combining demand management, such as road pricing, with better public transport, in order to tackle congestion and improve local travelling conditions. All the successful bids include some work on assessing road pricing options. Speaking at the CBI Conference today Alistair Darling, Transport Secretary said:

"One of the biggest threats to economic expansion we face in the next 10 - 15 years is congestion on the roads in our towns and cities. Congestion is bad for business, frustrates motorists and hurts local economies.

"Continued investment is essential - and by 2007 transport spending after inflation will be 60% higher than in 1997.

"But I'm convinced that without more radical measures, including more effective demand management, and actively managing traffic flows, road congestion will get worse. That is why I've been very clear about the need to look at road pricing.

"Local and regional pilots are essential if we are to explore and understand the possibilities of road pricing at national level. "It's good to see local authorities across the country recognising that congestion is an urgent problem and that planning to avoid future problems needs to start now.

"We are looking forward to working with these authorities to develop practical solutions to congestion problems, and support the development of a national road pricing scheme."

The Government will be working closely with these authorities on this developmental work. Also today, the Government has invited the seven successful authorities, along with TfL and Cardiff, to join a new Road Pricing Local Liaison Group. This group will be responsible for developing a consistent approach to road pricing - looking at technical standards, design and scheme appraisal.

Notes To Editors

1. In July 2005 Alistair Darling announced £18m was available to support preliminary scheme development by transport authorities between 2005/6 and 2007/8. The funding will be made available over the next three years, to support planning for local demand management schemes where pricing is a major element.

2. TIF Pump Priming Funding

Authority/Funding Total (£K)
West Midlands 2600
Greater Manchester 1250
Tyne & Wear 950
Cambridgeshire 385
Bristol 1495
Durham 300
Shropshire 480
Total 7460





3. The Department will have another bidding round for the remianing pump-priming funding in 2006.

4. The schemes could then be funded from the Transport Innovation Fund (TIF), subject to a further bidding process. Within the Fund up to £200m a year is ultimately available to support such local pilots. If more good schemes emerge, more can be made available.

5. The Transport Innovation Fund, makes £290m available in 2008 - 09 and is set to increase over time reaching some £2.5bn by 2014/15. The Fund offers substantial, long term investment and will support smarter and better management of the capacity we have.

6. The pump priming money is no guarantee that an authority will be successful in bidding for the main Transport Innovation Fund. The Government is committed to working closely with the successful authorities to deliver the work programmes set out in their pump priming bids, to support future decisions both on the main TIF fund and on road pricing more broadly.

Public Enquiries: 020 7944 8300
Department for Transport Website: http://www.dft.gov.uk

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Other information
Alistair Darling
TACKLING CONGESTION - NEXT STEPS




© Crown Copyright 2005

Call for huge rise in funds for transport Nov 28 2005
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

By Alan Jones


Business leaders will today call for a massive increase in spending on transport after new research showed that delays and other problems were hitting productivity and causing stress among workers.

The CBI wants the Government to commit an extra £1 billion over the next two years on road and rail projects.

The call comes on the day the Government will announce which region will pilot a road user pricing scheme.

The West Midlands is considered the favourite for landing the pilot, which will eventually unlock up to £2.5 billion funding for public transport improvements in the region.

The business group said total spending by private firms and the Government should be lifted by £60 billion over the next ten years to £300 billion.

Director general Sir Digby Jones also called for the UK's "decrepit" planning regime to be reformed.


A survey of 1,000 firms and individual workers for the CBI, ahead of its annual conference in London today, showed "widespread dissatisfaction" with the nation ' s infrastructure.


Half of those polled believed the UK's reputation as a place to do business was being significantly harmed by transport problems.


Two thirds of firms expected the transport system to get worse in the next five years, and half said transport problems were having a substantial impact on their profits.


Two out of five said staff were often late for work and arrived stressed because of delays.


Most of the firms questioned had introduced more flexible working to try to overcome transport problems.


Sir Digby said: "Although transport spending has risen in recent years, there are decades of under-investment to deal with and it is clear that business still finds it far too difficult to get its goods to market and its people to work.


"The Government must ensure more is done now to improve the transport network if its business-friendly credentials are to have any credibility.


"The Government must not bury its head in the sand. We have to do something about it, and quickly."


The study showed that firms blamed transport delays for lost productivity, increased costs and diminished customer service.


The bid by the region's seven metropolitan borough councils has received unprecedented political support although Sandwell Council leader Bill Thomas sounded one note of caution about the scheme.


He said: "We don't have a good track record of getting the money through the door.


"Year on year there is a concern about the inability to bring schemes forward to spend the money we get."


Leader of Birmingham's Labour Group Sir Albert Bore also welcomed the bid.


"We have to get our skates on," he said. "Congestion in the West Midlands is not reducing, if anything it is getting worse."

West Midlands selected for congestion study pilot

Transport Secretary Alistair Darling has named the West Midlands as one of seven pilot areas for the Government's new Transport Innovation Fund.

This new fund is providing up to £18m over the next three years to local authorities prepared to investigate bold schemes – including road pricing – to tackle congestion.

“West Midlands leaders have clearly stated that we want to be at the forefront of the debate to find innovative ways to tackle the growing problem of congestion,” says Cllr Gary Clarke, chairman of the Passenger Transport Authority. “If there are major new sources of funding on the horizon, let's look at the opportunity to position our region to be among the first to benefit.”

“This first stage would be about investigating options before any decisions are made – but it is clear there is already broad agreement that any solution will need to include ways that, with Government support, we can bring about significant improvements in public transport,” he says.

Following today's announcement that its bid has been successful, the West Midlands will carry out an in-depth feasibility study to fully investigate levels of traffic congestion and examine a range of solutions, including necessary public transport improvements. The study will take place between autumn this year and next summer.

Nacho - think this will go very well with the DfT - expect an easier ride getting funding for trams in the city centre than would have otherwise been the case.

Some good transport news then (for once).

The emphasis MUST be placed on providing alternative transport for people now though. I know this is just a dress rehearsal, but charging people to use roads at peak times will simply be a tax on driving if no suitable alternative is offered (eg trams etc).

And I am against congestion charging in our city centre - if someone wants to pick up a large parcel/bought item from the city centre they should not have to pay £5 just to get there - as long as they go out of peak hours then the road pricing scheme should mean it is free :)

BUT, what I say is trams for all!!!

I doubt very much it will cost £5 for any of the cities (at todays prices), I suspect around £2 - £3 per car per day is much more likely.

Taken from...

http://business.guardian.co.uk/story/0,,1652639,00.html

Congestion scheme may be extended

Hilary Osborne and agencies
Monday November 28, 2005

Motorists in more areas in the UK could face congestion charges under a pilot scheme announced today.

Speaking at a conference of business leaders, the secretary of state for transport, Alistair Darling said "radical measures" were needed to tackle congestion and he added that he supported the development of a national road pricing scheme.

"One of the biggest threats to economic expansion we face in the next 10 to 15 years is congestion on the roads in our towns and cities," Mr Darling told delegates. "Congestion is bad for business, frustrates motorists and hurts local economies."

Article continues
"I'm convinced that without more radical measures, including more effective demand management, and actively managing traffic flows, road congestion will get worse," he said, adding that this was why he had been very clear about the need to look at road pricing.

Local authorities in seven areas are to share £7m to explore new ways to tackle road congestion, which could include the introduction of a congestion charge similar to that in operation in London.

The authorities, which include those in Greater Manchester, Bristol and the West Midlands, will assess the feasibility of combining better public transport with new systems to charge drivers for road use.

Mr Darling also responded to calls for a massive increase in spending on transport.

The Confederation of British Industry (CBI) called on the government to commit an extra £1bn over the next two years on road and rail projects, after its research showed that delays and other problems were hitting productivity and causing stress among workers.

And it said total spending by private firms and the government should be lifted by £60bn over the next 10 years to £300bn.

A survey of more 1,000 firms and individual workers for the CBI showed "widespread dissatisfaction" with the nation's infrastructure.

Half of those polled believed the UK's reputation as a place to do business was being significantly harmed by transport problems.

Two-thirds of firms expected the transport system to get worse in the next five years, and half said transport problems were having a substantial impact on their profits.

Two out of five said staff were often late for work and arrived stressed because of delays.

And the overall cost to business of transport-created problems was put at 5% of turnover.

"Although transport spending has risen in recent years, there are decades of under-investment to deal with and it is clear that business still finds it far too difficult to get its goods to market and its people to work," said Sir Digby Jones, the CBI's director general.

"The government must ensure more is done now to improve the transport network if its business-friendly credentials are to have any credibility.

"The government must not bury its head in the sand. We have to do something about it, and quickly."

Mr Darling acknowledged that good transport was vital to business and essential to underpinning a successful economy, and that "continuous investment is therefore essential".

He said spending on transport was set to increase from £10.4bn this year to £12.8bn in 2007, when transport spending after inflation will be over 60% higher than in 1997.

As the article suggests, I suspect Manchester and Brum will recieve a disproportionatly high amount of money spent on our transport systems over the next few years - good news indeed.

It is good news - but long overdue.

That said, the WM Multi Modal Transport Study asked for £7b, but we got just over £1b granted, so we'll have to sit in traffic for that little bit longer :(

What gets me is how long it takes to make even minor changes. I drive round the Middleway in Brum on my way to, and from work. It is supposed to be a ring road yet at one island the "ring road" traffic doesn't get priority, and 2 minor roads hold up the evening rush hour! (By DFS, road fans)

How much and how long would it take to sort that? And what would be the benefits?

Makes me cross.

Yes... Good News... The Roads are getting an investigation.. About bleeding time.. The roads are awful..!

We need a few flyovers or tunnels on some of the Ring Road's intersections. That'll make a world of difference, and something which will keep traffic out of the city centre.

Not suprising that costs soar.If central government had provided funding for these and for other cities some years ago it would have cost a lot less.A 74% increase is a lot though.

In Tuesday's Birmingham Post Nov 28 2005
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

The cost of building the next two metro lines in the West Midlands has risen by 74 per cent.

The bill for the Birmingham city centre and the Wednesbury-Brierley Hill lines has leapt from an estimated £212 million in 2002 to a forecast £369 million when the lines, if approved, are constructed between 2008 and 2011.

However project backers Centro believes it has a strong case for Government funding that could provide at least a 150 per cent return on the investment from Whitehall, local councils and businesses.

Centro officers said the cost increase was down to an estimate of inflation in 2011 and a number of "tweaks" to the scheme required after a public inquiry into the city centre line, which concluded nearly two years ago.

I agree with MSP - the ring road doesn't function as a ring road atm and someties it is quicker to go through town than around it. If they want to start charging us (more) to use the roads then they have to ensure we can stay out of the city centre area if we don't want to go there. I think it is appalling that the main route to the airport gets so busy. If we want to have a good airport we must look at turning the A45 into a proper dual carriageway surely?

However project backers Centro believes it has a strong case for Government funding that could provide at least a 150 per cent return on the investment from Whitehall, local councils and businesses.
I think this quote neatly sums-up this country's attitude to transport (and public services in general) ... progress only occurs if someone can make a profit.
We need public transport run as a service. All this penny-pinching and demand for profit just degrades the service and renders it unreliable or over-priced.
We need the government to start spending its money on funding these services. We don't need the government to spend the money looking round for private funds. If it was possible to run decent public services at a profit then private companies would have supplied those services by now under their own incentive.

We need a few flyovers or tunnels on some of the Ring Road's intersections. That'll make a world of difference, and something which will keep traffic out of the city centre.
Don't hold your breath.
The government says priority should be given to funding public transport over roads. Given the appauling under-investment in public transport I'd say there's next to nothing in the kitty for new over-passes.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/4479810.stm

Bigger trams may be bought as Midland Metro vehicles struggle to
cope with rush-hour demand on the current Snow Hill to Wolverhampton
line.

West Midlands councillors will be asked to buy replace trams for the
current service and planned network.

They will also be told expanding the tram network along Birmingham
city centre streets, and through the Black County, could provide a
150% return.

There are plans to take the Metro to Wednesbury, Dudley and Brierley
Hill.

The Birmingham city centre and Black Country routes have cleared
public inquiries and have government backing.

Costs have risen to £281m, with construction inflation likely to
take the final bill to £370m by the time the first trams are running
on new lines in 2011.

'Particularly excellent news'

The bulk of the money will come from developers of major sites to be
served by the 14.2 km (9 miles) of new routes.

Leaders of West Midlands councils have agreed to borrow the rest of
the money.

Cllr Gary Clarke, West Midlands Passenger Transport Authority
chairman, said: "What is particularly excellent news for us is that,
when you add in developer and local contributions, the government
would be getting a minimum double return on its investment: £1.50 of
benefit for every 75p it invests.

"With those sort of figures, it becomes pretty difficult to argue
that Midland Metro expansion does not represent good value for
money."

I think this quote neatly sums-up this country's attitude to transport (and public services in general) ... progress only occurs if someone can make a profit.
We need public transport run as a service. All this penny-pinching and demand for profit just degrades the service and renders it unreliable or over-priced.
We need the government to start spending its money on funding these services. We don't need the government to spend the money looking round for private funds. If it was possible to run decent public services at a profit then private companies would have supplied those services by now under their own incentive.

Good point.

I think the figures stated by BCCI or the CBI or someone for West Mids congestion say that it costs local businesses £2billion per year (or was it more?)

If the government spent a quarter of that on additional transport - bus lanes, trams, better rail services (or even stuff such as bus conductors and prosecuting the people who make bus travel a misery) they could save business money AND charge them more tax by saying "look, we're saving you money because we've cut congestion".

But they won't.

Worth noting - Liverpool, not a pilot area have lost their trams the day after the areas were announced.

Date: 28-Nov-05
Category: News : Midland Metro
Contact: Barton, Mik - mikbarton@centro.org.uk

Double your money bonus for new look Metro
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
A new look for Midland Metro trams and an ‘excellent’ case for Government funding are to be presented to local councillors.

A report to next week’s meeting sets out how expanding the tram network on-street through Birmingham city centre and from Wednesbury to Dudley and Brierley Hill would provide at least a 150 per cent return on the investment by Government, local councils and businesses.

The latest figures provide some welcome comfort for public transport bosses in the West Midlands, following problems encountered by Liverpool, Leeds and other cities in securing Government funding for light rail projects.

Even allowing for cost increases through inflation over the 12 year life of the project and design upgrades, the Midland Metro expansion is expected to show a benefit-cost ratio of between 1.5 and 2.0 when the business case is submitted to the Department for Transport early next year, councillors are told.

“That means the West Midlands would benefit by considerably more for every £1 invested,” says Cllr Gary Clarke, chairman of the policy-setting West Midlands Passenger Transport Authority. “And what is particularly excellent news for us is that, when you add in developer and local contributions, the Government would be getting a minimum double return on its investment: £1.50 of benefit for every 75p it invests.”

“With those sort of figures, it becomes pretty difficult to argue that Midland Metro expansion does not represent good value for money,” he adds.

The remaining 25p in the pound, which the Government requires to be found from local contributions, has already been earmarked according to the scheme’s promoter Centro. The lion’s share will be funded by the developers of major sites that will be served by the 14.2 km (9 miles) routes. The Leaders of West Midlands city and borough councils have agreed for the remaining balance to be financed from prudential borrowing.

A report to next week’s meeting of the Passenger Transport Authority outlines steps taken in the West Midlands to keep project costs under tight control. They include bringing forward advance works to minimise risk and splitting the contracts between designing, building and operating the system. This revised format has already led to positive approaches from major construction companies who might tender for the scheme.

At the same time, councillors are being asked to approve the replacement of existing Midland Metro trams to provide a new, higher-capacity fleet for the expanded network. Bigger trams are already needed as the current vehicles running into Birmingham Snow Hill are struggling to cope with rush-hour demand. Calculations show that replacing all the trams would save money when compared against waiting for the mid-life refurbishment of the existing vehicles due in 2010.

Both the Birmingham city centre and Black Country routes have cleared public inquiries and have been given the green light by the Government. The Secretary of State approved provisional funding for the extensions, which totalled £212m at the time of the public inquiries. This has now increased to £281m, with construction inflation likely to take the final bill to around £370m by the time the first trams are running in 2011.

“There is no major construction scheme in the UK that does not increase in price year on year,” comments Centro director general Rob Donald. “The business case we submit early next year will clearly show how the benefits far outweigh the cost of construction and that we are confident this will satisfy Government criteria.”

“Midland Metro is an important part of the integrated public transport system contained in the West Midlands Local Transport Plan and a key to the continued economic growth of the region,” he says.

Centro says its new procurement approach has already received a warm welcome from Whitehall officials. They confirmed that the West Midlands is in line with the views of Transport Secretary Alistair Darling, who said there was a need to “look urgently at how light rail could be made affordable, including the best approach for procurement”.

Councillors are reminded in the report that the West Midlands still has to draw on the £1bn for transport projects promised by Alistair Darling in 2003 and the prospect of new funding coming to the region through the Government’s Transport Innovation Fund.

Click below to see how the new Metro will fit into Broad St


http://centro.journalistpresslounge.com/centro/uploads/imagelibrary/new%20tram%20Broad%20St.jpg

hope its not that colour!!

ouch - ...

Nov 29 2005


By Campbell Docherty

http://icbirmingham.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0100localnews/tm_objecti
d=16427187&method=full&siteid=50002&headline=bill-for-two-new-metro-
lines-rises-by-74pc--name_page.html

The cost of building the next two Metro lines in the West Midlands
has risen by 74 per cent.

The bill for the Birmingham city centre and the Wednesbury-Brierley
Hill lines has leapt from an estimated £212 million in 2002 to a
forecast £369 million when the lines, if approved, are constructed
between 2008 and 2011.

However, project backer Centro believes it has a strong case for
Government funding that could provide at least a 150 per cent return
on the investment from Whitehall, local councils and businesses.

Centro officers said the cost increase was down to an estimate of
inflation in 2011 and a number of "tweaks" to the scheme required
after a public inquiry into the city centre line, which concluded
nearly two years ago.

That's what you get for farting around instead of getting on with it....

How strange it would be to be in Birmingham and see the Metro with a sign on saying "Brierley Hill" :nuts:

hope its not that colour!!
Isn't that "T-mobile pink"?

Ahem...

http://centro.journalistpresslounge.com/centro/uploads/imagelibrary/new%20tram%20Broad%20St.jpg

Does this not look, well, a little... phallic?

I think it looks alright.



Time to answer the big question on transport Nov 29 2005
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::


Be honest, have you ever heard of central Government giving the West Midlands more money than it asked for?

It is a pleasantly bizarre scenario and one the West Midlands will have to take a minute to register.

Clearly, the off-stage noises we have been hearing about the Government's desire for the West Midlands to pilot road pricing prior to a national roll-out were accurate.

Even that is something of a surprise. Despite the talk that Alistair Darling was attracted by the cross-party consensus on road pricing the patchwork political map of the West Midlands offers, you always suspected that a stronger Labour heartland, like Manchester, would get the nod in the end.

That may still happen in the end but the rare sight of a Government dishing out more than half the money a region bid for is very significant.




It is understood that there are some Whitehall misgivings about the size of the road pricing pilot area if it ends up here. Government mandarins are not usually ones for backing risky projects.


Make no mistake, they want this to work so they can gather momentum for a national road pricing system.


But it appears the Department for Transport has been persuaded by the West Midlands feasibility study bid, allowing for potentially a whole range of different congestion-tackling measures tailor-made for specific hotspots and the various unique local factors that create them.


And tackling congestion is the absolute imperative. The very fact that business organisations are broadly welcoming the concept of demand management rather than flatly refusing - as would have been the case just a few years ago - is evidence enough.


Research shows 2011 could see 35 per cent more cars on the roads at peak times than in 2001 and recent Government figures showed the West Midlands has the busiest roads in the country, busier than London even.


It is vital we act on the signs we are getting from Government and be more brave in how we tackle impending gridlock.


In recent weeks relatively minor or limited road accidents have brought Birmingham roads to a complete standstill for hours.


Unless everyone, from business leaders to environmentalists, accepts quick and brave measures are needed now, this region can look forward to getting nowhere fast, forever.

A lot of info here regarding the Metro and its economics.Click link then click download.http://centro.journalistpresslounge.com/centro/companyinformation/research/index.cfm/fuseaction/details/cnt/1/ref/main/id/D7BC7A1C-13D3-97AA-2DE2879F69CC2F88/type/analystresearch/ses/1.cfm

Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh : :eek2: :eek2: :eek2: :eek2:
:runaway: :runaway: :runaway:
The new design is great, but the colour is :eek2: its making me physicaly sick!

It is OK... Nothing speciall.. Pretty funky though...

I think the graphics designers are way ahead of their time too - you can just see the tower crane building BST over to the left of the picture ;)

Ahem...

http://centro.journalistpresslounge.com/centro/uploads/imagelibrary/new%20tram%20Broad%20St.jpg

Does this not look, well, a little... phallic?

Why does it say Brierley Hill on the Tram in this pic when it's on the left side of Broard St so heading into town.. shouldn't it say Birmingham, or Snow Hill or something...

or am i just being incredibley anal..

ps. i like this but where are all the cars going to go (Bath Row?) or will the trams be getting stuck in the trafic up broad st/Hagley rd all the time too

Engelbert - it would say Brierley Hill as it would thread its way through the city centre to Snow Hill then out toward Wolves, and presumably take the Brierley Hill spur? The trams would terminate at Five Ways now you see...

Also the Bath Row development plan states that it will become the main westerly route for traffic from the city centre. Should be fun where Wheeleys Lane meet the ring road!

I think Broad Street will be closed to cars apart from access only? Or at least from Sheepcote St to Centenary Sq.

I wondered that too but I then figured it probably is going AWAY from the city centre and the camera, so heading towards the Hagley Road, ie we are seeing the rear of it.

Engelbert - it would say Brierley Hill as it would thread its way through the city centre to Snow Hill then out toward Wolves, and presumably take the Brierley Hill spur? The trams would terminate at Five Ways now you see...

Also the Bath Row development plan states that it will become the main westerly route for traffic from the city centre. Should be fun where Wheeleys Lane meet the ring road!

I think Broad Street will be closed to cars apart from access only? Or at least from Sheepcote St to Centenary Sq.

I can't imagine Bath Row would be able to deal with the trafic.. and what about the pressure on 5ways with all the cars coming from the Hagley Rd having to get on the roundabout instead of using the underpass to go down Broard St.. I guess theat's where they would use Sheepcote St.

Hmm still something needs to be done to clear Broad St/ Hagley Rd of the Lorries and Cars so the Buses/Trams can get through so i guess i'm in favour.. just.

khalid mahmood is such a twat, iknow so many people who dislike him as he has no principles of his own


MP calls for axe on new Metro lines

Nov 30 2005

By Jonathan Walker, Birmingham Mail


PLANS for two new Metro lines in the West Midlands suffered a major setback when the Government axed plans for a similar scheme in Liverpool.

Now MP Khalid Mahmood (Lab, Perry Barr) has urged ministers to do the same in Birmingham.

He said: "They made the right decision for Liverpool and now I want them to make the same decision here."

Transport Secretary Alistair Darling announced that the Government was scrapping Merseytram, an ambitious light rail project in Liverpool.

The Government promised £170 million to pay for the scheme in July. But it has now withdrawn the offe, because local councils have been unable to guarantee that the costs will not increase.


Story continues Continue story
ADVERTISEMENT

In the West Midlands, transport chiefs hope to build a major extension to the Metro, bringing it into the centre of Birmingham.

A second extension would run between Wednesbury and Brierley Hill.

An existing route currently carries 5 million passengers a year between Wolverhampton and Birmingham.

But earlier this week it emerged the cost of building the next two extensions had risen by 74 per cent.

The bill has leapt from an estimated £212 million in 2002 to a forecast £369 million when the lines, if approved, are constructed between 2008 and 2011.

Mr Mahmood said: "Alistair Darling should follow the example of the Merseytram, because that project was actually more cost-efficient than what we have in Birmingham.

"If he has cut that, he should certainly do the same here. The Midland scheme is not viable and never has been. It is a huge white elephant which local council tax payers will have to pay for.

"And it worries me that some of the costs may be met by cutting spending on the essential services our councils provide."

forget trains how can this be justified??? the bus service is shockingly poor, buses are dirty and smelly , they increase the price year on year on, plus its flawed no one is gonna purchase a £1.20 ticked there all will just buy the 75p its not like they actually a have any fucking inspectors


Passengers face 8% bus fare rise
A major bus operator has announced some fares will rise by 8% in the new year.

Travel West Midlands (TWM) is hiking Birmingham and the Black Country fares. which take effect on 2 January, 2006.

Sister company Travel Coventry operates a different scale, but is bringing in similar inflation-busting increases for its services across the city.

Phil Bateman, corporate affairs director, said "We are constantly balancing the requirements of customers against our own fiduciary duty."

The current inflation rate is 2.3% but some bus fares will rise by three times that figure.

Rises will see the 75p Travel West Midlands adult fare for short journey up by 5p, with 10p added to the current full adult £1.10 ticket.

Other new fares will see the Adult Daysaver rise by 20p to £3 and the Child Daysaver up 10p to £2. The Family Daysaver 5 will go up by 10%, or 50p, to £5.50.

Coventry fees will rise 5p to 80p for one or two stops, and by 10p to £1.10 for longer journeys.

Monthly Direct Debits for TWM and Travel Coventry will increase by £3 per month from 1 February.

Passengers face 8% bus fare rise
A major bus operator has announced some fares will rise by 8% in the new year.
The current inflation rate is 2.3% but some bus fares will rise by three times that figure.
Good grief.

I'm currently a bus-user; I choose to use the bus, over my car, for getting in & out of town. But with these (further) price increases I'm going to have to re-think.
I thought the plan was to make public transport more attractive, to persuade car-users to use the bus? In practice we're persuading bus-users to use the car. Fares should be decreasing, not increasing.

Ahem...

http://centro.journalistpresslounge.com/centro/uploads/imagelibrary/new%20tram%20Broad%20St.jpg

Does this not look, well, a little... phallic?

At the risk of making myself look a total geek, but I couldn't help but notice....


If that tram is going to Brierly Hill, its going the wrong way!!

Good grief.

I'm currently a bus-user; I choose to use the bus, over my car, for getting in & out of town. But with these (further) price increases I'm going to have to re-think.
I thought the plan was to make public transport more attractive, to persuade car-users to use the bus? In practice we're persuading bus-users to use the car. Fares should be decreasing, not increasing.

the thing is as well its not like theere not making money, i reas taht TWM is the most profitable bus compnay in wurope last year they made profits of i think £25 million

At the risk of making myself look a total geek, but I couldn't help but notice....


If that tram is going to Brierly Hill, its going the wrong way!!

No, it is. I thought this at first too, but when you think about it, as explained by bio earlier, the trams going in this direction will go to snow hill, then on to the black country eg. briely hill. If it was going the other way it would end at five ways.

At the risk of making myself look a total geek, but I couldn't help but notice....


If that tram is going to Brierly Hill, its going the wrong way!!

I can hear my echo..

^
|
|
|
look back through the thread.. and don't worry i guess we're both geeks.. and wrong at the same time..
Think it will confuse a lot more people if it's built

... I STILL think we're looking at the back of it as it heads toards the Hagley Road en route to Brierley Hill.

There's no plan to connect Hagley Road with Brierley Hill. Honest!!!

There's no plan to connect Hagley Road with Brierley Hill. Honest!!!.......Oh :hahano:

Fucking disgraceful the bus fare rise. It were 90p a few years back. That's a 33% increase in about four years. Where's the justification for that? They just spend it on stupid thing in bus stops lying about when the bus is due to arrive, probably at thousands of pounds a pop.

What happens to TWM's profit? Surely people shouldn't be making so much fucking profit off public transport... it's a necessary (if we don't want chaos) public service. Pump the profits back into the buses you bunch of cretins.

^^Maye they'll spend it on driving lessons for their drivers :hahano:

Or courtesy classes?

The Metro will terminate at Five Ways although it is planned to extend the line to Quinton and provide a park and ride service as close as possible to the M5 junction.The mothballed Walsall to Dudley line will be reopened from Wednesbury(Metro depot) and the new Metro line will continue on to Brierly Hill ;The Merry Hill shopping centre is contributing in the region of 40 million pounds to the line(Arena Central will be injecting funds too).One area that will be benefiting greatly is Wednesbury which will effectively have two lines (3 when the 5W's is completed).The fortunate residents will be served with trams every three minutes as the lines from Wolverhampton and Dudley pass through one of its two Metro stops.

^^Maye they'll spend it on driving lessons for their drivers :hahano:
Or courtesy classes?
I find Birmingham bus drivers are okay. I even get a "goodnight" when I return home in the evenings.
I've used the buses in Liverpool, they tend to be nice chaps.
Worst has to be Hertfordshire. I travelled on a few buses when I lived down there (just a few, they were hard to come by). Sometimes the driver would pass a stop with someone waiting, leaving them to wait an hour for the next bus. I was twice ignored while waiting at a stop. The second time it happened the bus had to stop for a red light 100yds down the road. I ran to the bus and knocked on the door. He let me on and said he didn't see me. When I told him I held my arm out he said it wasn't out far enough (revealing that he did see me) and proceeded to give me a lecture on how to hail a bus. Cheeky bugger.

The Metro will terminate at Five Ways although it is planned to extend the line to Quinton and provide a park and ride service as close as possible to the M5 junction.The mothballed Walsall to Dudley line will be reopened from Wednesbury(Metro depot) and the new Metro line will continue on to Brierly Hill ;The Merry Hill shopping centre is contributing in the region of 40 million pounds to the line(Arena Central will be injecting funds too).One area that will be benefiting greatly is Wednesbury which will effectively have two lines (3 when the 5W's is completed).The fortunate residents will be served with trams every three minutes as the lines from Wolverhampton and Dudley pass through one of its two Metro stops. Wednesbury is going to be the Spaghetti Junction of the Metro world! This will no doubt help the town.

Maybe Phil Bateman at TWM might think about spending some money on more staff like inspectors to make sure the buses don't get fucked up and vandalised so often, thus pissing away so much wasted money on maintenance and cleaning. About 100% of bus passengers want some kind of security put back - you can't rely on a driver to do it, especially on a strict timetable. When will the penny drop Bateman!

I've never been one in my life, but I really can't understand why they're getting away with the London Routemaster busses, the money that they'll save on conductors will just go on replacing the ripped up back seats/smashed windows wont it?

I think they should monitor which routes are the worst for vandalism (11 maybe) and play a heavy-handed approach with security personnel on-board. In the States they've cut down dramatically on anti-social behaviour with a complete no nonsense zero toleration policy. I don't think the mouthy little bastards at the back of the top-deck will be so liberal with their marker pens or knives if they knew there was more than a "camera" watching them.

New Walsall-B'ham Airport link to make Smiley's life just a little easier.


Sky's the limit for town rail link Dec 5 2005
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Walsall transport leaders have welcomed the introduction of the town's first direct train link with Birmingham International Airport as a key step in its regeneration.

The half-hourly service will start running on weekdays between 10am and 7pm from next Monday, getting residents to Birmingham International station in 48 minutes.

It comes as a further boost to the borough following recent news that more regular morning trains are to operate on the Walsall to Wolverhampton rail link after the service was given a two-year reprieve from the Government axe.


Central Trains announced it will continue the service until October 2007, allowing campaigners more time to battle for its future. The service was earmarked for replacement with buses in a West Midlands rail review published earlier this year.


Walsall Council leader Tom Ansell said: "This new airport link is great news for Walsall and I'm sure it will prove popular with both holidaymakers and business people in the borough.


"The link will prove invaluable in further raising Walsall's profile and help to encourage more investment in our borough."


Coun Marco Longhi, cabinet member for environment, welcomed the new service to Birmingham International station, saying it was important to encourage people to use sustainable means of transport.


Airport services begin with a train out of Walsall at 10.03, with the first journey in the other direction starting a minute later. All services pass through Birmingham New Street.


Earlier this year, council cabinet members backed proposals for services to Birmingham New Street to be extended to Birmingham International station.

it aint gonna run on the birmingham to coventry line is it??? thats already congested thanks to virgin

Pirlo - you are a genius! :)

It just struck me - the council seem to want the metro to go to the airport as the next priority line.

Is it because they are looking at axing the local train service between the airport and city to allow intercity services to go faster?

Maybe this is a sweetener to Alistair Darling? The demise of Central Trains?

Why will the trains go through New St? At Stechford, there is a spur line that goes up to Walsall.

but thats used for freight trains and trains that aint in use ie going back to the depo

.....and VERY slow trains

So the Walsall Link to the Airport is just like any other link that uses New St then! There are already trains from Walsall to New St - I don't see the excitement!

It's a through train.Before it was a question of changing in New St.No big change but nice packaging for Walsall.

New trams for Birmingham and The Black Country.



New Metro tram fleet approved
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
This is how Midland Metro could look (check this thread for the new look tram) once trams start running through Birmingham city centre streets and from Wednesbury to Dudley and Brierley Hill in the Black Country.

Councillors this week approved the purchase of a new fleet of around 40 modern trams to operate the expanded network.

The new higher-capacity trams would also operate on the existing Wolverhampton to Birmingham route from 2011. By this date the existing rolling stock would be more than 12 years old and due for a major overhaul.

Bigger trams are already needed as the current vehicles running into Birmingham Snow Hill are struggling to cope with rush-hour demand. Calculations show that replacing all the trams would save money when compared against waiting for the mid-life refurbishment of the existing vehicles.

Expansion of the network has now cleared two public inquiries and been given the green light by the Government. The scheme’s promoter Centro expects to submit a final business case early next year. Progress on the project, including the ‘excellent’ case for funding was presented this week to councillors on the West Midlands Passenger Transport Authority, which sets policy for Centro. It was given unanimous, all-party approval

They should have built longer trams in the first place, and used MetroCammell (Alston) too, instead of this Euro forced initiative of using manufacturers in Naples of all places.

I quite like the present design but non of the people involved in Midland Metro were completely happy with the trams.There were monetary restrictions imposed by central government at that time.A new fleet of forty will make a big difference.

Metro's 'rubbish' trams up for sale Dec 8 2005
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::.

By Ben Hurst, Birmingham Mail


FOR sale 16 trams. All of them used, repaired dozens of times, and described by their owners as "rubbish".

Yes, 16 Midland Metro trams are to be dumped just six years after the system was launched.

Centro is planning to replace the troubled trams built by Italian firm Ansaldo Transporti and buy in a new fleet at a cost of £72 million.

Centro hopes to sell the old ones on the second hand transport market.

The new trams would run on an expanded Midland Metro system including a new route through Birmingham city centre from Snow Hill to Five Ways and in the Black Country through Wednesbury and Brierley Hill.


The news was revealed as the West Midlands Passenger Transport Authority gave the green light to network expansion plans.


The cost of the controversial scheme for the two new lines has risen by 74 per cent.


The bill for the Birmingham city centre and the Wednesbury to Brierley Hill lines has leapt from an estimated £212 million in 2002 to £369 million by the time they are completed in 2011.


Three quarters of the cash will come from the Government and 25 per cent locally.


To gain Government cash the scheme has to meet a business case and Centro is confident the plans will succeed.


As part of the scheme Centro wants a brand new fleet of trams because the older Ansaldo Transporti models have been dogged by unreliability and poor build quality.


The trams have been a figure of fun - described publicly by operator Midland Metro, which owns them, as "rubbish" and having wiring like "plates of spaghetti".


Horrified bosses had discovered each tram was built to a different design, and currently one tram has been taken out of service to be cannibalised for spare parts.


A spokesman for Centro said: "The initial cost of the Metro scheme was £45 million and the trams would have been included in that. The new fleet of 40 trams would cost £1.78 million each.


"There is a second hand market for trams and this has been factored into the figures."

So why didn't they return the trams to the Italians? We should have bought Birmingham-built ones anyway.

If my stereo, or car, or DVD player doesn't work, I take it back to the retailer or the manufacturer.

In fact the trams were delivered late and delayed the opening in 1999.I think they look OK but they are quite short.A new fleet would be welcomed.The ones used in Strasbourg would be nice.
Here's a photo http://urbanrail.net/eu/str/strasbg-hommes-de-fer1.jpg

What colour do people think would be ideal for Birmingham?

Brown.

Be patriotic go for red white and blue!
could always go for the colours that they were going to have in the first place:
http://www.kaleidoscope.enta.net/bridge2.jpg

In fact the trams were delivered late and delayed the opening in 1999.I think they look OK but they are quite short.


QUITE short??? Fuck me ....they're RIDICULOUSLY short more like. :no: They are the shortest Light Rail vehicles in the whole of Europe. Pathetically short! This is my main beef with this system - everything is on a Chad Valley-esque miniaturised toy-like scale. Why the fuck they didn't come up with more substantial vehicles (in length and seating) like the ones in Dublin, Sheffield and Nottingham I will never know. As with almost everything that Birmingham gets, it's always a short-change job innit? Roads, rail stations, metro systems...and now, evidently, "skyscraper" attempts.

You'd be forgiven for thinking that every sort of infrastructural improvement in Birmingham has to be carried out to as crummy and measly a specification as possible. If other cities can have decent sized trams, what the fuck was stopping the Midland Metro from having them too in the first instance?? What a pathetic shambles. But then, what exactly is new about THAT whenever anything to do with Birmingham is concerned?

Yes , at just over 24m they are the shortest in Britain pushing Newcastle's vehicules into second place at just over 27m.Of course other systems couple up,I can't remember seeing that on the Midland Metro.There are shorter ones in Europe mind;Bern's for example.

Martin G,what do you reckon to the 'new' station .