Three questions:
1.Do you think we need it/ would you rather spend the money on something else?
2.Would you be willing to pay around $15 billion for it?
3. Will it or another project like it ever happen in cash strapped Toronto?

1) It would be nice but 15 billion could go to more subways, much more.
2) Nope.
3) Not until Toronto has full controll of its own tax revinues.

Only a fool would look at the mess in Boston and say: "Go thou and do likewise."

In any case, the Gardiner simply isn't as intrusive to Toronto as the elevated freeway was in Boston. The Boston freeway was an eyesore that chopped the North End off the downtown core. The Gardiner is Lakeshore Drive with shittier flower arrangements.

i can tell u were watching discovery at 9pm :yes:

I wasnt watching disc and I totally agree with Flatiron. A relative of mine recently vistited from Boston, and he said the "big dig" went way over budget and was hell to live through. Not only that but it is apparently leaking and the construction company is being sued over it.

The idea sounded good, but the final product turned out to be a nightmare.

Yes, the concept of burying the expressway was quite good. Although it costed a fortune to actually do it in the end, at least the money did come through and it wasn't stopped half way.

The city already poo-pooed an underground replacement for the Gardiner...FOR FREE!!! (well almost)

A cross-downtown connector between the DVP & 427 is essential to the ring freeway system around the central city. The current Gardiner/lakeshore combo does suck, but it isn't a complete disaster. It's old and hideously expensive to keep from falling down though...at this rate, we will have paid for an underground replacement as the decades roll on.

I think they should re-address the idea of letting a private company build an underground replacement under the harbour (and gaining more lakefront parkspace on it's roof in the process), in return for removing the Gardiner and the giving them the land under it for development. This costs the city very little, gets rid of a costly eyesore, gains waterfront parkland, provides more mixed-use development in downtown, and lets the current one stay open until the new one opens.

You couldn't dream up a more perfect scenario.







KGB

^yea thats not a bad idea in principle. not sure if the dollars make sense tho. no way to know.

i can tell u were watching discovery at 9pm :yes:
:wtf: how could you accuse me of such a thing!!! JK:rofl: ya i was....they made it look really great for the city.

What a nightmare trying to fix yesterday's mistakes. Virtually every North American city bought the fool's gold of freeways and sprawl back in the 1950s. Most cities bought the idea that to save the urban core, they needed to retrofit it for cars. In order to save the village.....

The city already poo-pooed an underground replacement for the Gardiner...FOR FREE!!! (well almost)

Do you have any more details on this, KGB?

sorry

Toronto has blown many opportunities to fix this... most recently "what if" they cut and covered before Cityplace began? The ultimate bargain, no disruption.

The only thing left is to start the Hanging gardens of Babylon/Toront0... unfortunately they are busy rebuilding the tallest aprt of the monster (CNE heading east) as we speak with no long term solution in the plans... stupid, damn.

There's no need for a Big Dig in Toronto. Boston had some badd urban planning back in the day, and it caused a whole lot of traffic problems, congestion, and one of the old freeways were really close to the buildings, making the city look ugly. Now that they fixed it, its better for their city. Toronto is fine the way it is, but I would have to say it would look better without the Gardiner.

The fact is that George Bush cares about big cities in the US, and the fact is that the American federal government has been giving money to large cities for years. Conversely, here in Canada, the Martin Liberals have been busy treating our cities as bank machines.

I think the gardiner is basically a detractor.

But....there is a possibility that this liability "could" be turned into a asset. Visually, it's possible to turn it into a sort of snaking sculpture...by addressing the base and platform in a purely aestetic manner. Most people already like the experience of actually riding "on" it going through downtown. It's just crappy from below. It's not really a barrier, as it's so high, going under it really isn't a problem...the absolute rejection of any pedestrian interaction with it is what's the problem with it's origional design. Fix that and it doesn't have to be so bad...it might even be interesting (as in some people will love it...some people will hate it...love-hate relationships are always the most interesting anyway).

Just one idea of a few that might work. Or...we can just continue to spend millions every year patching it up, and not address any of the other problems associated with it.








KGB

TEAR DOWN THE GARDINER
What do we want?
Access to "Kitchen Table" and "Rabba Fine Foods!"
When do we want it?
NOW!

Occaisionally, you should say something new...I know you think you sound clever...but it wasn't funny the first time you layed those lines on us...and they haven't improved with age.






KGB

TOronto is wasting so much moolah on this Beast of a highway called the gardiner..

they should just get rid of the elevated part of the highway and merge the west side of the gardiner into lakeshore for now

I know it would be a massive bottleneck but this needs to be done WHILE they fully implement a better solution

I know this would never happen b/c of nimbyism and finances, but... Here's what our city's true leaders should be doing. Bury the Gardiner from some midwestern part of the city (Keele, Duffrin?) to the DVP. Deck over the rail lands in the central region around Union (from Bathurst to the distillery). With the land reclaimed from the Gardiner, build park space and reroute Lakeshore Blvd into a grand Ave a la University Ave with planters and a LRT like Spadina and what is being put into place on St Clair. Lakeshore Blvd should be a jewel in T.O's crown not an after thought to the Gardiner.

Build the current proposed subway routes (pick one of the many suggested all over the web). Spadina extension, Sheppard/Finch extension, Eglington to the Airport, a new Downtown line(?). Evalutate any possible streetcar routes on the city's main north south streets (Kiping, Islington, Keele, Duffrin, Vic Park, Kennedy, etc)

Do this and IMHO Toronto becomes 100 times better than it is today

I say keep the gardiner. Give it a few years, and we'll see it in a different light: a unique piece of infrastructure from a by-gone era.

Or better yet, realize it's aesthetic possibilities. In essence, it is a very large bridge. We could make it a bridge worth looking at.

Instead of burying an opportunity to have something unique, lets emphasize it. Rebuild a gardiner as a suspension bridge, with beautiful soaring towers. Or something else... you get the idea.

The funny thing is, people say that the Gardiner cuts off the waterfront. It's not the Gardiner that does this, it's Lakeshore Boulevard! Consider the two fairly new concourses the city has put in for pedestrians walking under the railway tracks (York St and Bay Street). We could get funky with the Gardiner in the same way.

Rather than wasting billions of dollars burying the Gardiner, that is.

Plus, who wants to get rid of the best vantage point of the skyline? I don't want to arrive downtown in a tunnel!

sincerely,
the Devils Advocate

^ i am agree with you Lakeshore Boulevard most go, the Gardiner is benin compared to Lakeshore Boulevard.

algonquin you make some very interesting points...I never viewed lakshore boulevard as the problem but you might be onto something here.

How about the railway tracks?

I know this would never happen b/c of nimbyism and finances, but... Here's what our city's true leaders should be doing. Bury the Gardiner from some midwestern part of the city (Keele, Duffrin?) to the DVP. Deck over the rail lands in the central region around Union (from Bathurst to the distillery).

Most of your post I don't have a huge disagreement with apart from being somewhat dreamlandish from a financial perspective, but the above is outright impossible.

I've said it a few times before already. People really need to stop focusing on the railway tracks. You cannot really bury the railway tracks . I am not sure how Grand Cen in NYC does it, but without GO, VIA, CN, CP, and Ontario Northland all retiring their diesel engines for electric... what are they called again (starts with "pen"), burying them is a huge hazard. These engines must be ventilated at all times. The idea of burying Union Station is absurd. The roof at Union is slitted in the middle above the tracks along their entire length, and even with that provided, a fire has broken out in Union Station's roof at one point in recent years. There is a reason they haven't built a building above the station, or anything else. You cannot bury it without huge amounts of empty breathing space within the "tunnel" which would make a massive mountain out of the current mole. Following the model on Union's west side is a much more practical approach, and I think would look great on the east. It is only a network of high-overhead crossings spaced out in such a way as to pose no ventilation-/fire-hazard while still interacting with the environment.

If you really don't like the the tracks, run the gardiner on top of the them from the west side of the EX to the DVP. Designed properly, the Gardiner will accomodate the necessary ventilation overhead the tracks. Then you get one eyesore instead of two, but I really think it would totally suck as a solution to the problem.

There is actually a proposal of rebuilding the Gardinier on top of the railway tracks, by using cable-stayed bridges.
http://www.toviaduct.com/

There is actually a proposal of rebuilding the Gardinier on top of the railway tracks, by using cable-stayed bridges.
http://www.toviaduct.com/
That is awesome, thanks for the link. I may change my mind yet (let's wait til I get a chance to read the report (hopefully I get one -.-)).

There is actually a proposal of rebuilding the Gardinier on top of the railway tracks, by using cable-stayed bridges.
http://www.toviaduct.com/

Interesting proposal, though it looks like we'll have to sell our souls to construct a bridge like this.

With each new Condo, the Gardiner looks less intrusive. The Gardiner is only one of many things that forms a wedge between the city and the lake. The railway tracks are another. But the main problem was the lack of development between the tracks and the Gardiner, which was a no-man's-land of parking lots and brownfields. With the development of condos with human-scale podiums, this will change.

There are plenty of cities with overhead roadways/tracks that are urbane.

There are some wonderful examples in this city of how you can humanize "dead space" underneath bridges like the LCBO entrance under the bridge at Yonge and Summerhill or the walkway to the ACC.

this is a good discussion

Thank you for the link Bertez! The current elevated structure is so ugly, that we need new ideas to make the area much better looking. A cable-stayed bridge might really change my neighbourhood's appearance!

Does anybody know the status of this idea? Or some more info?

...

With each new Condo, the Gardiner looks less intrusive. The Gardiner is only one of many things that forms a wedge between the city and the lake. The railway tracks are another. But the main problem was the lack of development between the tracks and the Gardiner, which was a no-man's-land of parking lots and brownfields. With the development of condos with human-scale podiums, this will change.
...
GOOD POINTS!!!
It's the railway tracks, stupid! Leave the Gardiner alone!
In any event, each new condo tower is another Gardiner saver!
Tear down the Gardiner so that we can have more access to Rabba Fine Foods!

There is a reason they haven't built a building above the station, or anything else. You cannot bury it without huge amounts of empty breathing space within the "tunnel" which would make a massive mountain out of the current mole.

I'm not sure if you talking about the same location as I'm thinking, but was'nt there a proposal to build a stadium (MLG II) over the rail tracks at Union, before the ACC proposal won?
And the MLG II was'nt cancelled because it was'nt feasible, but because it was cheaper for the Leafs/Raptors to share a stadium. So it seems it is possible (if not hugely expensive) to build on top of rail.

There is actually a proposal of rebuilding the Gardinier on top of the railway tracks, by using cable-stayed bridges.
http://www.toviaduct.com/


Wow, what a great site. Never heard of this proposal before. Looks like a great idea, but not sure if it's viable. Have to skim through the report. Cost is of course always going to be a factor

The fact is that George Bush cares about big cities in the US, and the fact is that the American federal government has been giving money to large cities for years. Conversely, here in Canada, the Martin Liberals have been busy treating our cities as bank machines.
What? The big dig started in 1989 I believe. Massachusetts is one of those states that gives far more than it receives.

Are Be:

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I'm not sure if you talking about the same location as I'm thinking, but was'nt there a proposal to build a stadium (MLG II) over the rail tracks at Union, before the ACC proposal won?
And the MLG II was'nt cancelled because it was'nt feasible, but because it was cheaper for the Leafs/Raptors to share a stadium. So it seems it is possible (if not hugely expensive) to build on top of rail.


Hey,
Yeah, we are not talking about the same thing, perhaps I was vague. A single building/complex is a different matter, I'm talking about the idea of burying the tracks from from Bathurst to Cherry, or some such distance, as some other posters have suggested would be a great idea :weird: . Like I said, they did it for Grand Cen in NYC, so the concept can be engineered, but the track elevations we're stuck with make such a feat royally infeasable in Toronto, I beleive. It can only be engineered in appropriate conditions.


Edit; of note with regard to building on top of the tracks, the extra hazzard with Union Station itself though, is that trains stop and stand there for long periods of time (prolonged heat exposure to the structure from idle engines exhausting fumes straight upwards). This also applies strongly for the west side too, where trains stop and wait for trackspace to open up inside the station.

THis is an awesome proposal...the train tracks will be covered partially by this new roadway...with it being suspended a bit in the air it allow the trains under it to still have plenty of cool air and it utilizes space really well...Also you will have a much better and closer view of Downtown Toronto....it would be a joy to commute on it...whether you are a transit rider or a car driver...This might be the best idea ever on how to eliminate the elevated portion of the Gardiner Expressway. :)

That is a GREAT Idea, the only thing I wanna change is turning that blasted LRT to Subway, MUAHAHAHAHA.

And how about using the same concept throught scarborough to 401 (The Tracks still continue to there), to connect to the 401. If they did that, it would eaze the 401 east of DVP of 50% of its traffic, The DVP wouldn't be half as congested as it is now.

But remember, transit is ALWAYS involved.

The gardiner over the railway tracks, good idea. But looking at the proposal, wouldn't all those cables form an even more obvious wall between downtown and the lakeshore?

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lol

Are Be:

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LMAO!! Nice job, that's hilarious!

I emailed the guy about the proposal,

My email: Do you plan on presenting this to the David Miller? even thought he loves to destroy highways and replace them with imaginary subways.



Reply:

Dear Jelani N Laws:
Thank you for your comments and for visiting my www.toviaduct.com
website. Answering your query, I haven't got in touch with Mr. Miller
yet, but I am planning to make a presentation to the City Council in the
coming months. Anyways, through my website, I am doing a campaign to
create public awareness on the Gardiner Expressway's issues, and the
better proposal I am offering to the city to deal with them. As you
have, many people are supporting my proposal, and I ask interested
individuals like yourself to help propagate it.

As you might be aware, it is probable that there will be a formal
presentation this coming Fall to tear down the elevated Gardiner east of
Yonge Street, arguing that only a small fraction of the Gardiner
commuters use the section between the DVP and Yonge Street. However, I
am concerned on the future demand of traffic along that same area with
the new developments along the East Bayfront and the Portlands, which
are expected to bring more than 50,000 people to the Central
Waterfront's east side! Imagine all these people going to work or to
study not just to downtown, but to the west or the north-west areas of
the GTA. Or the people increasingly moving to the many new condo
developments west of Yonge Street, who chose to keep their jobs located
on the north-east and taking the DVP to get there.

Why spend hundreds of millions of dollars for a solution that will
almost certainly backfire on us in the short-term, if we can spend a bit
more in a long-term solution?

I will soon be upgrading my website, and I will keep you updated with
the project's progress. Please help promote my Gardiner Expressway's
proposal, as I also welcome you to come with any comments in the future.

Best regards,


Jose R. Gutierrez

I'm thinking that viaduct proposal is my new favorite idea.

On the side. How many venilation shafts do you think it would take if the tracks were covered? Say 1 duct with a 5 ft diameter fan every couple hundred metres?

This idea isn't all that bad.

I'm thinking that viaduct proposal is my new favorite idea.

On the side. How many venilation shafts do you think it would take if the tracks were covered? Say 1 duct with a 5 ft diameter fan every couple hundred metres?
That's a question for an engineer to figure out.

Still, the railway tracks are just as big of a barrier as the Gardiner, if not more. Plus, there's the wall of condos.

Ya but its a step in the right direction and could be a great addition to the city and its skyline. The only problem is that it would be hard to expand in the future if need be.

But if the Condos. Lakeshore Blvd., and railway tracks are all there, then why tear down the Gardiner? You are creating an awful lot of harm, and not increasing anything. And for this, we should spend tax dollars?

Well true enough but with this bridge we could finally see pt use this and take some of the load off and pedestrians could use it which would make it a much friendlier place, besides its better than the other proposels. The only thing i did not like was that you may have to pay a buck each time you use it!!! that would suck and slow traffic, unless they use the ETR system.

"Still, the railway tracks are just as big of a barrier as the Gardiner, if not more. "


Neither are much of a physical barrier, as the street grid either goes over or under them. They are a bit of a visual barrier, as they create a break in the streetwall, and are not built with the pedestrian in mind origionally....this can be fixed though.








"Plus, there's the wall of condos."


As before, buildings on the street grid do not act as a barrior either. Streetwalls of mixed-use buildings actually lower the impact of things like the Gardiner and railway corridors by not making them stick out in a vast empty tract of land, which was excactly what everything south of Front street used to be.






KGB

...
Neither are much of a physical barrier, as the street grid either goes over or under them. They are a bit of a visual barrier, as they create a break in the streetwall, and are not built with the pedestrian in mind origionally....this can be fixed though.
...
KGB
Good point! The Gardiner is even less of a barrier than the railway tracks!

"Good point! The Gardiner is even less of a barrier than the railway tracks! "


Well no actually, the Gardiner is a much bigger physical and visual problem than the railway corridor for pedestrians. Going under or over the railway tracks is much more pleasant and easier than crossing under the Gardiner (the Tramway is actually sort of nice, as are the numerous bridges)...as many places still don't have proper pedestrian-designed walkways....you are stuck walking through a maze of fast traffic and on/off ramps. mentally it's very unpleasant.






KGB

Unlike the railway underpasses?

I dont know about a BIG DIG, but Toronto desperately needs new roads. Even Mozambique has better roads that "1st world" Canada

this project looks hype! woah, dats nice. I really hope toronto will get that tho, because thats unique and it makes toronto stand out. Thats what i love bout Toronto, CN tower, Skydome, you don't see that kinda structures in other cities, you just basicly see plane buildings.